JOEY STURGIS: Negotiating Royalties, The Truth About AI Plugins, and Recording Aggressive Vocals

Speaker 1 (00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast, brought to you by Ivanez Guitars and Basses. Ivans strives to make high quality, cutting edge musical instruments that any musician can afford and enjoy. Visit ivanez.com for more info. And now your hosts, Joey Sturgis, Joel Wanasek, and a Eyal Levi.

Speaker 2 (00:21):

Welcome to another episode of Dear Joey. Now if you guys have been listening to these episodes, Joel has them, Eyal has them, I have them. We are answering your questions, so if you guys have a question for us, let us know. You can just send us a little email to Al at M Academy. That's EYAL at M Academy with the subject. Dear Joey, so yeah, I'm coming to you from Los Angeles, California. Actually I'm in Burbank, which is pretty far from Los Angeles to tell you the truth. And we are here for nail the mix with Tua Madsen at NRG, and he's mixing Meshugga. I just have to say for just a second that this is amazing. I had never thought that I would be in this position where we would have shuga on the show, so that's really rad. And if you're listening to this episode long after that's happened, just know that it was dope when it happened.

(01:22):

So anyway, we're going to roll right into these questions, and I haven't even read these questions in advance, so if some of them are weird or whatever, I apologize. That's life. People are weird, me included. Alright, number one comes from Mr. Charlie. Charlie says, dear Joey, Joel has hashtag no small time and Al has it. What is your motivational slogan that helps you when you work? I've actually thought about this a little bit and I don't think that I have it quite figured out, but I do have something that I've been saying recently just because I've been inspired by people like Tony Robbins and Gary Vaynerchuk and stuff, and it's start before you're ready. And what that really means is there's people who put all of these roadblocks in front of them between them and their goals. Maybe they want to be a badass audio producer, but they tell themselves, well, I'll do that once I have a studio.

(02:28):

And they say, well, I'll start doing that once I get my SSL board and put it in my studio. And then they say, well, I'll do that once I get my bank loan and I'll get my bank loan once I start my business and I'll start my business once I learn how to start an LLC and I'll learn how to start an LLC once I finish school. And oh, I'll finish school once I pick a major and oh, I'll pick a major on and on and on to the point where it just has no hope. And so the big thing that I've learned from my own life and my own experience is to just start before you're ready, dude, if there's something you want do, just start doing it. There's no excuse. Now we're living in a world where our fathers had it so much harder than us.

(03:15):

We have all the information at our fingertips, anything we want to know in an instant, communicate with anybody in the world at any time, in a flash, at the touch of a button or a click, it's insane. There's no excuse. So yeah, start before you're ready. I like that. This next question comes from Kevin. He asks, Hey, Joey, love your work. Thank you, Kevin. He said, I recently found out that you actually worked on my favorite band's record, two Faced Charade from Famous Last Words, maybe it's Charade. Charade, yeah, charade. And he said, what was the process like with that album, considering it was a psychotic concept album and the band wanted it a certain way also at the end of the show must go on. How did you get all of those vocals to fit with three fourth different songs into one, and what was it like with the orchestras on the album?

(04:14):

Thank you, Joey. Keep up the Great work. Well, the first thing I have to say, Kevin, is I can't take all the credit. There was actually a lot of people involved in the album, but my good buddy, Nick Sampson did the production on that, and he actually did a lot of the programming as well. And then I came in at the end, I did a whole layer of programming myself, the Joey Sturgis layer I like to call it. So I can't take full credit for that, but I can tell you that there was a lot, and I mean a lot of thought that went into this album, not just conceptually, but even musically and Nick Sampson, I hand it to him. He's a musical genius and also the, I'm going to forget his name right now. I just literally just traveled. I flew for six hours and I worked out for two hours.

(05:06):

I'm incredibly tired, so I apologize for forgetting his name, but the lead vocalist for this band is also a musical genius as well. So the two of them, you put them in a studio for a month and you're just going to get some crazy shit, and then they hand it to me and I just put my whole stank on it. Yeah, I mean, essentially when you work on a project like this, it's kind of a process of just adding on layers and layers, and as you're working with the songs and you're solidifying things and committing to things, it's really easy to just add new things on top of that and to give things a try. And so I think it was their concept from the beginning, especially on the show, must go on to reflect on the whole album and bring back all those songs into one.

(06:03):

And I think the challenge of doing that was finding the chords and making all the melodies work and stuff. And I probably lend that to Nick and the band. I didn't have any part of that. I did have to mix it, which was very difficult. This is a very layered album. So mixing something like that takes a lot, a lot of practice and experience just working with eq, layering eq, figuring out how to get dynamics to shift around. Sometimes you need dynamics to lock in and then you need to release them and let them flow around and be loose. And then, I don't know, it's not something that can easily be explained, especially on a little podcast like this, but if you pay attention to my workflow and how I work on my nail the mix sessions, you'll know that it's all about getting something squared away so that you have control over it.

(07:02):

And then also setting yourself up to have lots of control. Some people just kind of leave themselves with the track. Let's say it's a string track and they might just have a string section, four different string tracks, so they'll just leave it as those four string tracks. But I might break out the two high strings as a high group and the two low strings as a low group, and then put the high group and the low group into a single group. And now you have the four original tracks plus the two groups, and then the last group. So giving yourself that level of control is what makes it easier to digest large projects like that. So moving on to the next question, Mr. Blake. He asks, Hey guys, love the podcast. Love you, Blake. Thank you very much. You said recently I just joined Nail the Mix. That's awesome. Virtual high five, bro, I was wondering what drum samples are used in the intro to the Ultimate Recording Machine podcast?

(08:05):

Thank you in advance. Thanks for noticing, Blake. I have no clue, to be honest with you, we hired George Christie to make a series of songs for us, and that one just seemed to stick. I really liked that one. There's other songs, we just don't use them. But yeah, reach out to George. I would imagine you probably used Steven Slate. I mean, that's the easy thing to use, right? Everybody's got Steven Slate, just load that bad boy up. Boom, you got it. Alright, next question, Mr. Bobby. First off, thank you so much for everything you guys are doing. Ah, my heart melts. He says, I'm learning so much and I've never had so much ambition and drive for the craft. I did have a quick question. I produced Mix and Master in an album for band and they just got picked up by a decent label.

(08:56):

I know people have mentioned getting royalties for all the hard work going into the album, and I was curious, at what point should I start negotiating royalties and commissions for my production and recording work? Also, do you negotiate these things with independent labels with best wishes? Bobby, Bobby, you're too late. You need to negotiate before you even start, before you even have the band at your studio, before you even agree to the project, you need to negotiate what those rates are going to be. Now, a lot of people will tell you differently, and I'm going to tell you from my experience that this is not the right way. So the school of thought and what everybody will recommend you is to do it in the room or to do it right after you write the song. And a lot of people still work this way.

(09:46):

You'll get in a room and you'll write a song and we'll be like, okay, yeah, we'll settle the paperwork later. Now that we've done the song, we know who's getting what and it's going to be straight to the point, black and white. That's never how it works. That's what they say. That's what everyone says. And then as soon as you get the lawyers involved, everyone starts arguing about it, even if it's not you. You'd be surprised how this works once you get higher up because then you have different interests involved. So if you have a manager, you have your manager's interests. If you have a lawyer, you have your lawyer's interests and you have your interests. And so even if you tell them like, Hey guys, I want this to be 20%, they can fight for your 20% all they want, but you have to think of the other side as doing the same thing.

(10:37):

So the band might say, well, we want 90%. So now there's not 20% left. And so the lawyers and the managers go after it and they fight for it. And so you've got two sides, two businesses or whatever I guess trying to work together. I prefer to like structure my shit where it's just a flat fee. And when I say fee, I mean percentage. So I'll say, yeah, I'll hope you write your whole album, but you got to give me 10% of every song regardless if I write the whole song or if I write 1% of the song or if I write 50% of the song, it doesn't matter. You give me 10%, I'm happy. Sometimes that's easier to digest. Some bands still don't like that and they like to argue, well, you didn't help with lyrics on this song, so you shouldn't get 10% whatever. I just like to bottom line, get it figured out before you even start even doing any work and before you even start agreeing to other stuff, I would agree on this stuff first and then agree on the other details as well.

(11:51):

So yeah, you've already done the album, so that kind of sucks. I mean, you're not going to have a big foot to stand on, so I would ask for something small, it'll be easier to get. The worst thing is if you ask for something big and they're like, sure, but then they actually never pay you. That sucks. So that happens too. Be careful. Alright, next question. Dear Joey, question regarding additional low-end progressive elements including sub drops, Tempe and eight oh eights. I'm asking you because I'm in awe of what you achieved with the born of Osirus album. Tomorrow we Die Alive, which featured this kind of thing heavily. I find that I am able to get a big fat low end in my mix, but when I start to add these elements, percussive tracks, they either get lost completely or end up muddying up the entire low end. If I attempt to combat this by removing low end from elsewhere, it may sound good during sub drops, but after the sub drop has finished, the mix will then be lacking. What I usually do is run my additional progression straight into the master bus so that it bypasses the mixed compression. I find that this helps them from ducking the entire mix when they hit, but I'm wondering if you have another advice on how to combat this. Thanks for doing these. This is very informative. Well, Charlie, thanks for asking the question.

(13:07):

I like to use automation, so whatever tools you're using or whatever moves you're making to get that low end to drop out and make the sub drop sound right, you do it only for that moment and then you take it back out. And you do this with automation and there's a lot of ways to do it. I even talk about some of this stuff on my creative live studio pass that I did where I walked through mixing the song, move it by down and dirty, and I show you how to make certain what I would call momentary elements or transient elements, if you will, sub drops, explosions, et cetera, to stick out in the mix. The matter of the fact is that you just only have so much sonic landscape to work with. There's not infinite space. So in order for an explosion to sound exciting, a lot of other things have to sort of get out the way, especially if you're already pushing the mix to the max. And that's what a, I mean a lot of this metal cord metal music is, it's like a wall of sound, so you have to suck that wall back for a second, push the explosion through and then bring the song back. And you do that with automation. So definitely make sure that you do that because there's really not a static way to do it. Alright, next question from Mr. Sam. I'm going to take a little drink here too.

(14:36):

Sam says, Hey Joey, just wanted to say that NTM and URM are incredible resources for those who want to educate themselves in audio in a hands-on format. And we all appreciate the work you guys put into helping amateurs like us out. I've been really interested in plugins like OEK Soothe and Ozone Neutron recently as they are driving a little closer to the market of software and machine learning for fixing mixes and revealing problems without any effort. I know that JST, you are always trying to help musicians get their sound quick and easy, but I was curious on what are your thoughts about these? Basically, do you think that plugins that do all the heavy lifting in one stroke are good for mixing or taking away jobs from people who take the time to make stellar mixes with proper techniques, better understanding? Love to hear your thoughts.

(15:35):

Thanks. Well, that is a mindful, let's start at the base. Let's start at the beginning. What do I think about ozone neutron? I've never heard of OEK sus, so I'm not really sure what that is, but I'll talk about ozone neutron and I will say that I've never used the plugin, so forgive me if I'm wrong, but from seeing the marketing, my impression is that this plugin is like a mix assistant, right? I'm going to tell you, I think it's cool. In fact, JST had the same exact idea. When I first started my company, I wrote down 40 different plugin ideas and I still have those and that's one of them. So they just beat me to the punch, which is fine, and I might still try my own version of it at someday, but here's why I think it's fine. Or actually, here's why I think it's great.

(16:31):

We lose track of what we're doing so often we get so hung up into the craft and the tools and the gear and the studio and what we do and who we are and all this. But at the end of the day, you can't forget that you're entertaining people. That's all this is. That's all music is. It's for some guy to run on a treadmill and listen to a song while he is doing it. It's for somebody to have the best summer of their lives and you're the soundtrack. It's for somebody who had a shitty week at work who escapes and goes to a show on Saturday and lives their life that way. All we're doing is we're making music and anything that makes that easier is great. And that's my approach to my company. I want musicians to be able to make their own music, to produce themselves, to not have a creative barrier.

(17:32):

And I think when you get signed, that's a creative barrier, for example. Or when you hire a producer, that's also a creative barrier. Even if the producer is helping you, it's still a creative barrier because you have to go through somebody to even get an idea to the listener. The label requires you to have a producer because they don't trust you to do the album yourself. And then if you do do the album yourself, then you have the creative barrier of the label itself. So there's always a creative barrier. So I'm, I'm just trying to eliminate those and break those down, and that's what I'm hopefully doing with some of my software. I think that there's a lot of, I'll just say, let's make up an example, like a bass player in a band has no clue how compression works, but he can buy game reduction and put it on his demo on the demos that he records with his vocalist, and boom, all of a sudden everything sounds way better than it did before. And in their minds they're thinking, damn, now I'm inspired to make more music. Damn. Now this is actually sounding pretty cool. I kind of want to make some more demos. That's the whole idea behind all of this.

(18:44):

I don't think it's taking away jobs. We're always going to need to have professionals in this field and there's nothing wrong with it. I mean the more the merrier. So yeah, thanks for the question, Sam, and thanks for the kind words. Really appreciate it. Alright, another drink. This question comes from Mr. Robert and he says, my question is specifically for Joey, since he produced the song that I'm talking about, but I suppose any of you can answer this question. I'm a songwriter and vocalist, so I've tried recording myself a few times, but every time I record my screams, you can hear what I think is my breath hitting the mic. I've heard something like this in the song IHE by Ms. May I at the 2 51 mark when Levi screams, I hate everything. You can slightly hear what I'm talking about, but in my recordings it's overpowering.

(19:41):

I'm curious why this happens and how to get rid of it. Thanks Robert. Well, Robert, thanks for writing in and thanks for asking the question. There's a lot of things to pay attention to when you're recording vocals on your own. One is what I would call floor noise. And floor noise happens when you stop on the ground or you grab the stand or some kind of vibration gets between you and the mic. This can happen in a lot of different ways. I mean, you might not even realize it, but for example, when I record Levi, I remember he likes to get on his tippy toes, and so he'll be standing still and then when he goes to scream, he lifts his heels up and he's on his tippy toes, and then he does the vocal part, and then when he's done, boom, slams down, slams his heels down the ground, creates a vibration, the vibration travels up through the stand and hits the mic and goes.

(20:42):

So at the end of all of his screams, you have to go in and edit that out. I'm trying to think of some other tendencies, but yeah, everyone's got little tendencies and you just have to edit them out like don't be a bitch. The thing is, people are in the moment when they're performing and you don't want to get in the way of that, at least within reason, as long as you're not trying to interfere with the performance as much as possible, but still making it somewhat technically sound. Make sure you got a pop filter. If you don't have a pop filter, then every time you have a explosive that comes out of your mouth, that's like a little gust of wind, it hits the diaphragm too quickly or too violently, and it causes a really big bass sound to come through. So it's always good to have a pop filter, obviously.

(21:36):

The other things is pay attention to your habits. So like you said, let's see, what did you say? My breath hitting the mic. So for example, most microphones are very directional, especially like a cardio pattern. So I'm actually talking into this mic right now for a lot of this episode. I haven't been pointing my voice at the mic. If I point my voice at the mic right now, you can hear how it's very clear. And then if I turn my head 90 degrees to one side like this, now all of a sudden it's not as clear. So you can see that just by turning your head a certain direction after you do a vocal part, could probably remove a lot of the issues that you're talking about here. And sometimes I've told vocalists to do this in the past if we're struggling with something or if we're dealing with a really delicate part or a loud part or something like that.

(22:40):

Another thing is a lot of people deal with is headphone bleed. Like if you have open back or semi-open back headphones, it's usually a pain in the ass because it'll bleed into the mic. And if you use closed back headphones, it makes the mix sound really weird. And so sometimes you have to scoop it for the vocalists so that they don't get this overpowering mid range in their ears. And also so that you avoid the bleed. I've also heard of some really cool tricks. I can't remember which producers did it, but they would put a low pass filter on the mix that goes out to the vocalist to wash out the symbols and filter out some of the high end so that high end wouldn't bleed into the condenser mic, and so therefore the vocals would be even cleaner. So you can kind of get crafty and do things like that.

(23:33):

I mean, just realize there's a lot of tools in front of you. Think about it. I mean, there's so many things that you can do with stuff that you already have and people just aren't doing it. So I would say that. Well, guys, that's all the questions that I have for today's episode. I know my episodes are a little bit shorter than the other gentlemen on our crew. They can ramble more than me, I guess. I'm not as good at that. But hopefully you guys enjoy these episodes. Let us know what you think. Put some comments in the good old private producers club. And if you're not a part of that, make sure you hit up support. You can go to URM support.com. We'd love to hear from you and let us know what you think. And I'll talk to you guys next time. Peace out. The

Speaker 1 (24:22):

Unstoppable Recording Machine podcast is brought to you by Ivans Guitars and Basses. Ivans strives to make high quality cutting edge musical instruments that any musician can afford and enjoy. Visit ivans.com for more info to ask us questions, make suggestions and interact. Visit URM academy slash podcast and subscribe today.