JAY MAAS: The Ear vs The Gear, Committing to Sounds, and Handling Unprepared Bands

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast, brought to you by Ivans Guitars and Basses. Ivans strives to make high quality cutting edge musical instruments that any musician can afford and enjoy. Visit ivans.com for more info. And now your host, Joey Sturgis, Joel Wanasek and

Speaker 2 (00:00:20):

Eyal Levi. Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast. I am Eyal Levi. I am without Joel and Joey this time. I'm sure you guys have noticed that we're not always on all the podcasts, and that's because of a few things. Number one, we're trying to record more podcasts than ever these days. I'm not sure if you guys have noticed that we put out 13 episodes last month up from an average of four or five. That's a lot of episodes. And also factor in that we've been traveling a lot. I logged 20,000 sky miles last month and I didn't even leave. The country was home maybe four days the entire month. So with all that traveling, with all the different things we're doing, the schedules aren't always lining up, but we are striving to give you the best content we can and as much as we can. And so with that, I'm going to introduce a special guest we've had him on before and when we had him on last time, I remember us saying that we should do this again because we could have probably talked for about two more hours. So lemme introduce Mr. Jay Maas again. Welcome.

Speaker 3 (00:01:40):

Hey, thanks.

Speaker 2 (00:01:41):

Hi. Hi. Alright, cool. Podcast's over. That was great. It was great. It was great having you. Thanks. I appreciate it, man. Thank you. See you next time. Yeah, dude. Cool. We should do this again. So well welcome back. I remember last time we talked to you, you were in Australia and you were almost going to be a dad and now you're in the United States and you are a dad, but almost going to go to Australia.

Speaker 3 (00:02:09):

So that's what I am a dad, and it's been awesome. Congrats. Thank you very much. He's great. He actually spends a lot of time in the studio with me because he's pretty chill baby, and he has a tendency to fall asleep listening to bass guitar tracks like being recorded. So we just use whatever tool we have in our arsenal to make him happy and sleepy and sometimes bringing him to work is one of those tools. So I think he's pretty much a shoo-in for future intern and and I go back to Australia to do two records this weekend, and this will be our first international flight. It's pretty much like the longest possible flight you could have. And I'm going to do it with an infant, which makes me equally courageous and dumb, but it's going to be fun. We're going to do a couple of records. We're going to see some friends, we're going to see some family. My wife's from Sydney, so I met her while being a guy who goes to Australia. Then I brought her home with me. So yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:03:10):

Import. Did you have to pay a tariff?

Speaker 3 (00:03:14):

I snuck it in right before the election, so it's okay. Oh, okay. Perfect. But thank God I wasn't a year late.

Speaker 2 (00:03:23):

Amazing. So I've been talking to I guess kids who have super talented dads, and I'm one of those as well. I just spoke to Diego from Volumes whose dad is a Grammy winning producer. They've actually won a Grammy together. My dad's a pretty well-known symphony conductor.

Speaker 4 (00:03:45):

Nice.

Speaker 2 (00:03:45):

And we just didn't nail the mix with Kane Chico, whose dad is Kevin Chico, the incredible producer. We've also had Kevin on the podcast and it sounds to me in some way you're definitely starting to wire that kid up early for this, for music.

Speaker 3 (00:04:06):

Yeah, trying. He'll be the first one that has any, I guess musical dad, my family, we're pretty sure I'm switched at the hospital or something. No one in my family cares about music. No one is musical whatsoever. My dad sells cars and my mom works for Fidelity Investments. It's just not a thing. And I was just the weird kid who wanted to skateboard all the time and listen to punk rock. And that just sort of, I don't know, marinated into doing my own bands, starting to record my own bands, and then being very in the scene, very in the network, at least here in Boston and having people go, oh wow, can you do my demo? And I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And now next thing you knew, you're like, oh, this is what I do.

Speaker 2 (00:04:54):

Well, the thing that I guess Diego and Kane had in common was that their dad already had a career going when they were kids, and so they were immersed in it from a super young age. They were just kind of like you're doing with your kid just from the get go. He's there in the studio with you already traveling. They were doing stuff like that all through their childhood. And so by the time they were in their teens, they already had the skills of totally a kid who just got out of recording school and is looking for an internship. So by the time they were in their twenties, they were already fucking badass,

Speaker 3 (00:05:35):

Way ahead of the curve.

Speaker 2 (00:05:37):

So who knows, you might be creating a monster there.

Speaker 3 (00:05:39):

I hope I am. I know just from the hard work, and I always laugh. I don't know how to do that many things, but I get really myopic and really focused about the two or three things I want to do. It was skateboarding for me for a long time and blew, I became semipro. I was doing competitions, all this stuff, free skateboards, the whole thing, and I'm fucking six four, so I blew up my knee and that was kind of that. Damn, you're tall? I'm tall, dude. Yeah, so Kurt and I are the same height actually. Wow. Yeah. Damn. Okay. You guys are huge. Yeah. Yeah. Except he could, if he punched me, I wouldn't wake up. He's got a few pounds on me.

(00:06:22):

Oh, we should circle back to that. He just had a kid too, and we do weird dad dates now, but yeah, so I don't even remember what I was saying. Oh, I was just like skater kid. Got into it, skateboarding got all fucked up, and then I switched to, all right, I should probably just start doing music more. Started going on tour, loved punk growing up and and then started my own studio. Oh, actually I started this whole thing because I had my first real recording experiences were with Kurt at God City, the old God city, and he was great. It's all kinds of stories there. I probably shouldn't tell. I had this new band. I didn't know what we were going to do. I didn't know if it was going to be, the dudes were dedicated. I don't know. I didn't feel like spending a bunch of dough on it, so I was like, I'll just take the money that I wouldn't. Sorry, Kurt, by the way. I take the money that I'd normally give to Kurt and I'll just,

Speaker 2 (00:07:21):

He's doing fine, man.

Speaker 3 (00:07:23):

He's fine. But yeah, I took that money and I was like, yeah, okay, well, I'll just buy some stuff. We'll just make demos ourselves and this way the songs aren't even finished being written. We'll just do this on our own and do whatever. And that's how I got the bug. That's how I got started, was basically shorting Kurt on my new band and starting my own little studio in my basement.

Speaker 2 (00:07:46):

You know what though? I've talked about this with a lot of producers who sometimes they get butt hurt when the underling or something then takes a band that they were working with or

(00:07:59):

Something like that. But that's just, what do you expect how the next generation comes about? That's how you get new blood in the scene. Good producers are not created in a vacuum most of the time. They're created through working with somebody awesome like Kurt, or pick someone that we've had on Nail the mix or the podcast or whatever. It's usually through working with someone like that. And then at some point, if you're good and you're not a total weirdo, one of those bands is going to decide to go with you or something. And that's just life. So best to not get pissy about it and to just congratulate the person, all that person at some point. I think it's just the natural order of things that at some point they're going to get one of your projects or that they're not going to come back to you and you should congratulate them. I've noticed that with just about every single producer. But I've heard that even back in the day with Andy Snip and Colin Richardson. It was like that. Andy worked under Colin, and at some point Andy started getting some of Colin's gigs. Yeah,

Speaker 3 (00:09:14):

I mean that's kind of what happened with Putney Machine, kind of what happened with Cornif and Beith, right? Yep, yep. And to some degree, on a smaller scale, it just happened to me. So I have a full-time assistant here and he hit me up. He was like, Hey, I'm going to California for my sister's wedding. And he's like, when are you going to meet California? The A room will be free. And I was like, yeah, yeah. And I was like, who do you have coming in? And the Bandi has coming in. I did their last lp. I was like, oh, okay.

(00:09:43):

But it's cool. He's so talented and I'm happy to see him start landing work independent of me. I think it's great. By the way, anyone who's listening, his name's Daniel Flores, and he's actually from Bogota, Columbia. His English is amazing, and he took a huge chance. I sponsored his visa. He and his wife came out here to work for me, and I can't say enough good things about him. He's amazing. I think I have the best assistant ever and happy to see him really actually kind of spreading his wings in Boston a little bit, landing his own stuff and his mixes are super good.

Speaker 2 (00:10:18):

How did he convince you to let him work for you? Kind of bold old, I will move from Columbia.

Speaker 3 (00:10:30):

The reason he convinced me is because he was already taking trips to the States to intern at other studios and one day, so he'd always hit me up online and was just like, Hey, can you listen to my mix? Hey, I really like this mix. You did. We would just shoot the shit. And I get a fair number of people, excuse me, who kind of do that, and I'm always happy to talk to them. And at the time, because I didn't know him from a hole in the wall, he was just one of those guys that would hit me up and be like, yo, counterparts is sick and you're awesome. And I was like, oh, thanks man. And then one day he's like, Hey, I'm in Boston. Can I come up to the studio today? And I saw no harm in it. He's like, I'll take the train.

(00:11:11):

Whatever I got to do. He seemed really motivated, so I was like, yeah, of course. So I grabbed him. He spent a day with me. We recorded this funny kind of pop punk band from Boston where the singer's pretty much autistic, but he doesn't know it. And we kind of laughed about it together. But the band's actually super good. Sorry, the off season. Sorry Ian, but I was recording them that day. I'll have to tell 'em about this podcast. They'll lose a shit, but in a good way or bad way, we'll see how the chips fall. Alright. But yeah, so he came up and I've had a lot of interns and he wasn't my intern yet or anything, but just he asked the right questions. The questions you would ask someone if you wanted them to know that you were actually intelligent. And I was like, oh, okay, cool.

(00:12:01):

His studio etiquette was really good. He vibed with people well. So that was cool. Then about a year later, I'm talking to him, he's like, yeah, I've been working. He's on a six month thing here in the States and he's kind of working for free at Studio G in Brooklyn with Joel Hamilton, which is a great studio, great engineer, and dude, he's living, this whole podcast is going to be about fucking Daniel, but whatever. He's living in a punk squat with a weird hippie woman named Buttons who takes on many lovers and buttons from Brooklyn buttons and he's paying 350 bucks a month. They're stealing power via a weird,

Speaker 2 (00:12:47):

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. You can't just gloss over that. So she takes on many lovers. Was he one of them? No, he says no, and I believe him. So was he paying? So do they pay rent to sleep with her?

Speaker 3 (00:13:07):

I don't think so. I think she was just a very free spirited individual.

Speaker 2 (00:13:11):

Freedom.

Speaker 3 (00:13:12):

Freedom, yeah. And he's actually, Columbia is a very Catholic nation, actually. He thinks I'm out of my mind, which is awesome. So he's a very conservative dude and he's living with a fucking, sounds like he picked the right roommate. Yeah, well the thing is, he was just picking like, yo, I need the cheapest shit possible in New York, which means basically living in illegal punk squat with a woman named buttons for 350 bucks. So he was doing that and then he kind of hits his wit, wits end with it, sorry, buttons. Daniel wasn't feeling it. And so I'm talking to him and I was like, dude, spend your next three months up here, room and board. I got you, man. I'll hook you up with food, whatever you need and just come. I liked him. We talked a lot. I was like, just come assist. And he's like, ah, let me think on that. And then I think that night or the next day, he was like, I can be there tomorrow. And I was like, yeah, fuck it, dude, come. He actually showed up on my birthday. So we picked him up and got him kind of going, and he, dude, he lived here for a few months and we just did a bunch of records together.

(00:14:26):

It was right around then where I really got a feel for how good he was, how smart he was when he was like, ultimately my goal is to come to the States. There's just better bands here, bigger bands. It's actually happening here in Columbia. It's just not the same. And I was happy to help him out in any way I could to get that done because every other fucking intern I've ever had sucked and he's a really good dude. So yeah, I helped an immigrant get in, take that.

Speaker 2 (00:14:57):

Very relevant in these times. You're living in

Speaker 3 (00:15:00):

Quite.

Speaker 2 (00:15:00):

So that brings up a question. I get hit up by lots of people who want to come to the US for a recording career and they're always looking at New York or la and I get it. I understand why they would want to go there. I know one guy who came in, I think from Lebanon and he went to, or Jordan, I'm sorry, he came in from Jordan and he went to Columbus, Ohio and now he's moving to LA because what are you going to do in Columbus, Ohio to develop a recording career? Probably not much, but at the same time, LA is kind of a shit show if you're not established. Oh

Speaker 4 (00:15:43):

Yeah. So

Speaker 2 (00:15:43):

What are your thoughts on that? What would you say to people trying to get in this country? Where should they start?

Speaker 3 (00:15:51):

So I think it all depends on your client acquisition abilities. I've hit a nice place where I could live anywhere. Most of my clients need an airplane at this point, so they don't really care where I am. I do still have my base here of dudes who are in the New England area and it's drivable. But I would say that shifted from when I started. That's all I got. And now that's sort of shifted more to the minority percentage of what I do is people who could take a car, who would reasonably want to take a car to come here. We do a lot of airport runs, but I guess until you are at a point where you can do that or you sort of get that, yeah, you go where the clients are, but that means you're going to be living with buttons, man.

(00:16:41):

You know what I mean? She's going to take on many lovers and she's going to keep you up all night and you got to sleep through it and you got to wake up fucking bright eyed and bushy tailed and ready to record and yeah, budgets aren't what they used to be or even close. So if you're passionate about the industry, you're passionate about the job, it's what you really want to do. I would not recommend this career for someone who's trying to kill it. Just go be a computer science major. You know what I mean? Go learn Java, do that. Go work for kayak.com and just program their backend. Make a cool one 20. They'll probably have a beer fridge for you in the after hours, but if you're passionate about music, you might have to live with buttons and why you develop your client base,

Speaker 2 (00:17:28):

It's tough. Let me read you a post that Will Putney just made. Let me find it real quick. It's relevant to this conversation. Is this

Speaker 3 (00:17:37):

Where he is looking for an intern? He says to pay a shit, but you'll learn the special sauce.

Speaker 2 (00:17:41):

Yeah, yeah. I want to read it word for word. This internet is going slow. I'm in a hotel as usual. Okay, what bunny posted, we're looking for a new studio intern, send a resume to [email protected] if you're interested. Pay is shitty, but you'll learn the recipe for the special sauce must have a car and not be a weirdo. Basic understanding of recording is cool too. So let me just take that apart real quick. The very first thing he said was that the pay is shitty, but you'll learn great shit. So just to go along with what you said, that if you're looking to kill it right away, this is not the right move. And then he moved on from, okay, you got to be cool with shitty pay to must have some sort of self-sufficiency and not be a weirdo. The music part didn't even factor into it until the very, very end. Interesting how the list of priorities there music was the last thing and the first thing was got to be able to put up with shit and not be a weirdo and not be a moocher.

Speaker 3 (00:18:57):

Yeah, I mean that all make sense to me. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:18:58):

Yeah.

Speaker 3 (00:19:00):

If you have the heart, I guess if you're willing to put up with the shit, if you really dedicated to learning, then that's what we all want to see. This is not a flash in the pan business at all. Dude, my boy, Mike moved to la, he did the LA thing. He was actually a drummer of a band I recorded when I first started and he moved to la. He's building his own studio out there. But dude, he's been just grinding and grinding. He's working for more major label stuff. He doesn't really make any more money than I do. He just works with maybe more known artists. But yeah, man, same thing. You got to be the type of dude who's like, if you are not actually passionate about this business, I would recommend you do other things for sure. You got to really love it, at least with the current state of how we can all feed ourselves, but budgets and how the industry's going. Right now, the labels aren't making as much dough. People don't really buy music as much. Everyone's streaming. So the labels are finding other avenues to make money. So if they're not making as much, they're certainly not going to pay as much for the product. And as the guy who creates the product, that very directly affects you.

Speaker 2 (00:20:10):

Yeah, you can still do pretty well though, but you're absolutely right that there's not as much money to go around for extras like employees and

Speaker 3 (00:20:18):

Things

Speaker 2 (00:20:19):

Like that. So I think that's another reason that producers should be cool with the fact that at some point their underling is going to have to get its own projects because the pay is not something that someone can sustain indefinitely. At some point someone's going to need to upgrade to being the dude making the productions because assistant pay, you can't really build a life off it.

Speaker 3 (00:20:51):

No, I agree. I fully agree.

Speaker 2 (00:20:53):

So the very nature of that relationship is that it's going to be a temporary thing. The Randy Staub Bob Rock thing is that ship has sailed basically where you can be the guy underneath a monster and kill it like that. I mean, maybe if you're Bob Rocks dude, you can still do well. I don't know.

Speaker 3 (00:21:15):

Yeah, I don't even know maybe.

Speaker 2 (00:21:17):

So let's talk about Australia a bit. You seem to go there a lot,

Speaker 3 (00:21:22):

Dude, so

Speaker 2 (00:21:24):

Much.

Speaker 3 (00:21:25):

Fortunately it's not like it's Antarctica, you know what I mean? It's an awesome place. So I'm happy to go there. I want to go there, dude. It's basically, if California was a

Speaker 2 (00:21:36):

Continent, I know what I would do there. If California was a continent. Okay, that sounds pretty cool, but

Speaker 3 (00:21:40):

Also filled with everything there. Animals and insects will kill you for sure.

Speaker 2 (00:21:50):

Well, I lived in Florida, so I'm already used to that. Yeah, Florida

Speaker 3 (00:21:54):

Not my favorite place, but

Speaker 2 (00:21:56):

No, me neither.

Speaker 3 (00:21:56):

Yeah, Australia's great man. So we started going there. Actually the first time I went there was to help my friend Marty, who sang for a band called Carpathian, opened a studio in Melbourne, Australia, which is my favorite city there, sorry, to all the other Australian residents who thanked their cities better. You're wrong, the many good cities. There's really only five cities in Australia, right? You got Adelaide, Perth, Melbourne, Sydney, fucking Brisbane, and you sort of have Newcastle, you have five and a half. It's not like the states. We got five cities, major cities in New England, so it's like the size of America with a 10th of the population. But that sounds great. It kind of is, dude. Anyway, so I went out there, I was helping my buddy open a studio. Then last year I parted ways with Defeater, but we built Defeater and I was fucking the main dude in that band for eight years.

(00:22:53):

So we toured Australia all a bunch of times and I always had a good time, made great relationships with labels and bands and whatever, and tour managers, and you name it, my last tour there found the fucking mother of my child. So it was a pretty good trip. But yeah, so I just networked down there. That Carpathian record I did did really well on the mainstream charts. So that set me up for people kind of knowing me a little down there. And next thing I knew, I just had emails coming in. Yo, especially when the Australian dollar, there was a period there where our housing market crashed. The Australian dollar was pretty much worth the exact same amount as the American dollar, but Australia actually pays people a livable wage, unlike our country. So you work at a pizza place, you make $25 an hour. And

Speaker 2 (00:23:45):

I know it's true. It's true. I know, I'm just

Speaker 3 (00:23:47):

Laughing. No, but it's very true. You make $25 an hour, you hand pizza to people and then you're like, ah, but I have my cool band. And you live with your friends. You don't have very high expenses and your dollars the equivalent of the US dollar. So you're like, man, I really like this or that record. Why don't we just have Jay come out and fucking do ours? And Jay says, sure. So I go out and I've just done, I've kind of lost track. I've done a lot of records in Australia, about to do two more. Last time we talked, I was out there, I did four while I was there, and I did, I think, what did I do? I did one in Brisbane, two in Melbourne, and one in Sydney. And everyone, dude, two of the bands were signed, and then two of the other bands that I worked with got signed off the recordings we did. So things have just been good and we just have a ton of friends and dude, the girls are so hot and it's just cool. It's a cool place.

Speaker 2 (00:24:44):

And they like Americans.

Speaker 3 (00:24:46):

I have had a good run, presumably. Yeah, presumably they do.

Speaker 2 (00:24:50):

That's what I've heard.

Speaker 3 (00:24:51):

Yeah, I don't know. I was, dude, I was on an airplane, just a little puddle jumper, just like a one hour flight, whatever. And I'm talking to these women that are in my aisle and they're probably whatever in their fifties, we're just shooting the shit. Oh, you're American, blah, blah, blah. Okay, no bullshit. This shit does not happen to me in the United States of America. The girl who's sitting in front of me, very attractive, whatever, not if I had to draw a girl, wouldn't be like the girl I drew, but I can't deny the fact that she's a looker. She just turns around and she just goes, I love your accent. I forget that I have an accent. So I'm like, I just go, oh yeah. Hey, thanks. Well fucking, I'm married, but

Speaker 2 (00:25:34):

It's flattering all the same. Well, of course no one in the states is going to tell you that they love your accent.

Speaker 3 (00:25:39):

No, of course. Yeah. But it's just that little leg up that I wouldn't have otherwise.

Speaker 2 (00:25:43):

Yeah, well the same way that dudes with a British accent have a leg up when they come here,

Speaker 3 (00:25:48):

They slay. They fucking slay.

Speaker 2 (00:25:50):

Yeah, it's ridiculous. I know. I feel like I should take acting classes. Definitely work on that British accent. So what about going from studio to studio? How do you make with that? Or do you have them all come to one central studio that you like to work at, or do you just adapt? I just work wherever. Awesome.

Speaker 3 (00:26:16):

I've really found that no matter where I work, no matter what I'm working on, who I'm working with, my records sound like me. It blows my mind where I'm like, cool. I was on a different continent in a different place with different gear and a bunch of fucking IO and routing that I'm just like, this doesn't make any sense to me right away, whatever. But I'm there to make art. I'm there to, I care way more about the songs and the interpersonal relationships and getting inside the artist's head and all that stuff. So I'm really concerned with that. We'll figure out the signal chain. The guitars will sound good. The fucking drums will sound good, whatever. But all those records end up sounding like me ultimately. And that was kind of eye-opening where I was like, wow, I just did and mixed this record with none of my things, including my country. And it sounds good, and it sounds like one of my records when I

Speaker 2 (00:27:15):

First, it just goes to show, man, it goes to show, we always tell people that it's not the gear, it's the person using it that that's what matters. And you can take a great mixer and give them all stock plugins or put them in a shitty studio and they'll still put out great stuff because it's all about the person using the gear and the ears and their brain and what they bring to the table mentally. That's what really matters.

Speaker 3 (00:27:44):

Dude, I couldn't agree more when I first started getting into this. I read some sort of forum or post where some older guy said, I would take an old engineer who's made a bunch of great records, who has a tape deck in three SM 50 sevens over some kid who has every tool at his disposal. Hell yeah, of course. Yeah, of course. So that really stands. I experienced that and now I'm kind of on the other side of it. I couldn't agree more. It's very, very true. So I was petrified though when I first started going into like, oh, hey, welcome to a studio for the first time ever. This isn't your shit. This isn't your live room. This isn't your program. This isn't your mouse. Here's a patch pay that you didn't wire. So you're like, ah. And I was terrified. Of course I was trying not to show it, and I was trying to do a good job and whatever, and dude, that stuff, you can get through that stuff.

(00:28:39):

That's nerd shit, man. The stuff that matters is like, are you an artist? Are you committed to making something special at any cost? And I've learned that sonics how much 50 hertz your kick drum has, that's cool if it's an artistic decision, but there's no amount of sub that a kick drum has to have. There's no amount of top end of vocal has to have. What a record needs to have, in my opinion, is a human to human connection where you share these special hours, days, weeks, months with an artist and you're an artist yourself, and you guys came together and through that sort of interconnectivity, you made something that people want to hear because dude, you can listen to a white Stripes album and you can listen to a ASU album, and they're both very successful. That alone just proves that Sonics, while the artists, the producers should have a pretty good understanding of them are in a way irrelevant because you are creating something unique independently that should translate to other

Speaker 2 (00:29:57):

People. I agree, and I've got two things to say about that. Number one is there's a video that Eric Valentine made for Sound on Sound recently where he shows his Queen of the Stone Age tarone, right? And he boosts the mids to a ridiculous degree, something that we would never do in metal. The amount of low mids that he boosted was just like, holy shit, if I did that on a metal record, it would sound like honky trash,

(00:30:24):

But God, it sounded so goddamn good for that, for what he was doing. And it just goes to show that the sonics, you can sit there with these rules, but they don't matter. What matters is the emotional impact that you're making and whether or not you're true to the art. Those kinds of, I know certain metal guys who would never in their life think of boosting mids like that on a guitar and they wouldn't be making a record that sounded like that either. The other thing I wanted to say was that, speaking of your adaptability, I have a feeling that your touring career has helped with that because I feel like there's a lot of things I hate about touring, and I was really glad to stop. But the one thing that I really, really think helped me in my life was that you learn to improvise and you learn to adapt. Because even though you're playing the same songs every night or almost the same songs every night, you're in a new situation and every venue has its own set of problems.

(00:31:34):

And unless you're in Slip Knot or something or a really big band, you're going to have to deal with those problems and resolve them yourself. And even if you get onto a big tour like Mayhem was, or Oz Fest or something like that, even if you're on a big tour like that, then you have to deal with insanely fast changeover times. What if something goes wrong? You got to improvise a solution right away, or your set time gets cut by however long it takes you to. If you have a five minute changeover and then you have a problem and it takes five minutes to fix and you only have a 25 minute long set, suddenly you only have a 20 minute long set. So it teaches you to think fast and to learn how to work with what's needed to get the job done and to get past that stuff really, really quickly. Get it done, get it set up, get it going. We've got sound, we've got music. Cool. Let's focus on what's important, which is rocking. Totally.

Speaker 3 (00:32:40):

I go back to, for the first half of Defeater, I just had this 51 50 and I brought it on tour. I never recorded a record with it or not any of our records, but I actually did. Counterparts Current will carry us with it, but I never used it for the Defeater stuff. I thought it was a little, I don't know, it was just a little too gainy for what we do, but I brought it on our first bunch of tours, pretty much. It was reliable and it was loud, and I'd get a lot of compliments about my guitar sound, which for what we did was kind of strange just because we weren't a real heavy gain. We're heavy enough game, but not crazy heavy gain band. But just to sort of coincide with what you're saying, one thing I really noticed was that every night I could leave the knobs where they were the night before and it would sound like fucking ass.

(00:33:31):

And I was like, ah, weird. All I did was just plug this back in the way it was, and it sounds not how I want it to sound. Last night it sounded tight tonight. No, not so much. I got to turn the knobs and I might turn the knobs to positions that seem entirely irrelevant to the previous night, and maybe it's just different power coming in. It's just the different venue. It's the acoustics of like, is it a floating floor? How high is the ceiling? Whatever. And honestly, 51 50 is kind of like fucking one trick pony. And even in that one trick pony, I still had to mess with it every night just because every situation's different. And so you're right, the adaptability to be like, I have a vision in mind for how my guitar sound is going to be. If you don't have that destination, then you can't drive there. But if you do have that destination, there's very little that can stop you from getting there. You're just like, oh, this is too bright. Lemme try a ribbon mic. Or Oh, this is too whatever. Lemme try a different pre, lemme try a different eq. But you're not making these decisions arbitrarily. You're making these decisions because you have a place that in your mind, a psychoacoustic place that you're heading towards and you'll just do whatever. And I did the 57 beat, the 1 21, cool. I don't care.

(00:34:53):

This is what it is.

Speaker 2 (00:34:54):

Well, let me interrupt you and say that those of you that are listening who are subscribed to our URM enhanced level or have watched our EQ mastery class, the EQing method that we teach actually goes right along with what Jay just said about having a vision for what the end result needs to be. Because once you have that vision, then you can figure out how to get there. And that's not just with guitar sound like when you're EQing, for instance, LDFC we teach is listen, diagnose, fix, compare. The first two steps are listening and diagnosing because before you start moving any bands on an eq, you should know exactly what it is you're trying to fix and what it is you're trying to achieve. Does it sound too honky? Do you need it to be brighter? Are there ringing frequencies and how bad are they ringing? You've got to diagnose that stuff and know what it is you're trying to accomplish. You don't just start EQing things and hope for the best. I mean, you might end up with something cool, but you probably won't.

Speaker 3 (00:36:04):

Yeah, dude, I think take all your tools, whether you're fortunate enough to have, I do a bunch of really nice analog outboard gear that I lean on that I just like, or all your plugins, all your microphones, all your whatever. You got to put that back in the toy bin and just start with a signal and then listen to it in the actual fucking room that it's going to be played in and go, okay, cool. And then make a decision based on your experience and based on this sort of psychoacoustic destination. And as you do it, you're heading somewhere. So then you go into the control room and alright dude, play he plays, and you go, cool. Alright. My presumptive thought process brought me to maybe like 75% of where I want to be. I got another 25% to go. I thought that this would be a little bit brighter.

(00:37:01):

Alright, next thought process. Does it need to be more center on the cone? Does it need to be further away from the speaker because it's actually the proximity effect of the microphone With those low frequencies, are those fuckers masking that cool upper mid range that you were hoping for? I think why experienced engineers consistently make better records is we've just done the trial and error way, way more and we can pull from this bank of thousands of records that we made to say, okay, when I hear a signal in the room now, and sometimes I'm still blown away by like, oh, that did not work out the way I wanted it to. I would say the vast majority of the time now I go, oh, I'm going to use this mic on this signal. I know what this mic's like. I know about how far away from the speaker I want to be given, how reflective the room is because I know how the proximity flexed and how the reflections are going to sort of all play into this. And then what's the monitoring? Let me reference something that I know really well and these monitors to make sure if I'm not at my own studio and then I can quickly and confidently make a decision, dude, I am dying to get through the nerd shit always, man. I want to be in the room with the dude talking about the art, the songs. Yeah,

(00:38:22):

Totally.

Speaker 2 (00:38:24):

Yeah. I remember when I was at Berkeley, Eddie Kramer, the legendary producer, Eddie Kramer and Jimi Hendrix, led Zeppelin and all kinds of huge shit. He came in to give a masterclass, which I snuck into because I wasn't in the recording program. And he showed a way to mic a drum set and he did it in about five minutes and it sounded fucking incredible. It was so good. And people were like, how? Why did you pick that? How did you do it so fast? And he's like, I've been doing this for 30 years or 40 years. I know what's going to happen when I put that mic in that spot on that drum. I just do. I've just been doing this forever. I just know how this works. You just have to do it a lot.

Speaker 3 (00:39:12):

I'm about to hit the 15 year mark, which blows my mind, and I feel that I hear a snare, I hear whatever, and I just go, oh, okay. It's just like this little dumb click mechanism where I'm just like, yeah, one sec, lemme go get the thing. I know I have to get that will make this sound the way it will in my mind. And like I said, occasionally still can be wrong and I'll adjust from there. But typically I go, yep, that did sound the way I thought it was going to.

Speaker 2 (00:39:39):

That's why I think that copying people's settings never works because since every situation is different, I mean, so on nail the mix, we have mixers come on and they'll mix through a song and people will watch. And what we're hoping that people pick up from it is process and thought process and strategy for solving problems. Not how Taylor Larson eqd that one snare. So therefore you should EQ every snare from that point forward on. Exactly. He eqd that one snare. That's not what we're trying to get at. What we're trying to help people understand is what kind of thinking went into the particular solutions that the mixer, I guess executed. And some people get it and some people don't, but the reason that copying those presets won't work is because every situation is different and requires a different approach. And what these mixers have that a lot of students don't have is that you were saying that backlog of thousands of hours and situations where they get informed by all those past situations. And so when they make an EQ move or pick a compressor or change the microphone, it's all based on all this cumulative past experience. And that's what you're not picking up when you steal someone's presets. So if that preset works or something, it's totally by chance, but what happens when it doesn't work? What are you going to do if you don't understand the process?

Speaker 3 (00:41:22):

Well, dude, I use this preset,

(00:41:25):

Right? No, if you try to copy my settings, it would be the most frustrating experience in the world. Go through all my records and be like, all of this is different. It's just like none of this is the same. You might see some trends a little bit, but no man, that's yo perfect example. We've got a really beautiful house kit here, a bunch of great snares I could have back to back disband in the drummer's. Amazing. Next drummer, super shitty, right? It's like cool drummer A needs no EQ whatsoever, drummer B, what the fuck am I going to do with this shit? And then I have to dig deep into my toolbox to make it serviceable.

Speaker 2 (00:42:10):

I've told that exact same story that happened to me in one of the first podcasts we did. Cole Chamber was recording at my old place

Speaker 4 (00:42:19):

That's tight.

Speaker 2 (00:42:19):

And yeah, their drummer hits hard as fuck, and it was really, really well tuned and everything and sounded incredible and their session took forever. And I had somebody booked who drove all the way from California to Florida and the cold chamber session kind of just went over into this other band's session and I couldn't turn this other band around. So we asked, we were like, look, this is the situation. Can we at least record the drums? Can we use your setup? Because that way we can't turn these guys around. We won't charge you any extra time for going over, but we need to get this done. And they were nice enough to let us use the cold chamber kit for the other guy and the other guy is okay, but not nearly as good. Didn't hit nearly as hard. And man, same mike's, same setup, same everything. Sounded completely different, not nearly as good. Totally.

Speaker 3 (00:43:31):

Dude. One thing I learned early on is tone really starts in the hands before you get to the instrument, before you get to the micing or the whatever. Every good sounding record I've made is because the dudes were good and I've made a bunch of records that are sonically beautiful with kind of shitty musicians and no one really cares about them because they don't have that human to human connective nature that a solid musician has. They don't have that ability to basically break that, whatever that barrier is between, I don't know, I wrote a bunch of songs too, and they're basically the same as the other ones. They don't have that fucking unquantifiable.

Speaker 2 (00:44:19):

Yeah, it's interesting, man. It's really interesting. I always used to wonder what it is about these records that sound great by shitty bands and why they connect with people. And then I realized it's probably the producer. That's probably the connective tissue right there is that the producer is the great gets guitar player and songwriter who who's making this happen. So I'm wondering something about when you go out of town, I have noticed that when I travel, and you may have already answered this, but sometimes when I travel, a lot of things might not be quite up to what standard I'm used to in a way, in that there's a level of preparation that the bands don't have.

Speaker 3 (00:45:13):

Definitely.

Speaker 2 (00:45:15):

And there's a level of professionalism that the studios don't have. Sometimes they do, but oftentimes they don't. And how do you work with that aspect? I find that to be the more challenging part. Not that maybe it's not the nicest studio, but more that just the professionalism isn't quite there and that the bands sometimes have a super local attitude

Speaker 3 (00:45:54):

That happened to me. I feel like I'm going to tell the story and the band's going to know, so be it. Yeah, I flew out very far. Maybe it was Australia, maybe it wasn't, but it was. And I flew out and we were doing a full length, and the band really financially was putting themselves out there both between my fee, the studio hire, and then on top of it we rented to cut drums. We rented this million dollar studio. That's probably one of the nicest studios I've been in. And they're like, yeah, so it's day one. We're going to do pre-pro for a couple days and then go cut drums and they have four songs. That's it. And I'm like, yo, but we're supposed to be doing a full length. They're like, yeah, we got four and we are four and we got some rifts.

(00:46:41):

And I was like, oh my God. So I've just flown across the world, I've got all this shit booked out, I've got this whole situation and we got fucking four songs and some rifts. And I'm like, okay, huh. So if I may, this band's actually really good. I don't know if they were just way too into Call of Duty or what the problem was, but it was just like once we started working together, I was like, this is awesome. I'm stoked on what we're doing. And then we're listening to the demos and I've got program drums on the demos. I look at the drummer and I say, yeah, so this that fill is a little weird. I presume that when you play this live, maybe you do a little bit more of a whatever the fuck. And he just goes, oh yeah, no, I've never played any of these songs before.

(00:47:30):

I was like, wait, ever on real jumps? He's like, nah, but I can do it. And I was like, oh my God. So now fucking, I'm renting, we're renting a fucking little practice area from the House studio's buddy who lives down the road. We're cutting demos, I'm making the bands, two singers just if you don't have words, please lay down vocal melodies. Let's put some scratch tracks together. I'll put a click track together. I'll make something playable. And then tomorrow homey just has to go spend all day just kind of getting his muscle memory in place. And we were fortunate that he's very good at drums, so he was able to do it, but in other situations would be totally screwed. But to further your point, yes, I've had that experience where I was like, yo, I blew across the world and you're paying, I don't know, kind of a lot of money for this and you've got four songs and some riffs, and so now we got to fucking call the Million Dollar Studio.

(00:48:35):

Hey, can we push this back a little bit? We're just not there. They were really cool about it. Then to your second point, I show up to the studio, dude, we're talking just $10,000 mics up the wazoo. We got an SSL duality. We got the real everything, the real LA two A we got, you got three, got you name it. Right? Beautiful live room. I'm like, ah, very cool. But I don't know if you experienced this, what is going on with these studios who've got, I don't know, basically a million dollars worth of gear, but they still have the Apple Circle Mouse, the one that looks like a hockey puck and they've got a monitor from fucking 98. I know exactly what you're talking about. It's just in an old fucking weird Mac that is still running on normal old spindle hard drives and takes 10 minutes to boot.

Speaker 2 (00:49:39):

Yep. I've been there before you, God, I've had situations too where you get to one of those places and they have the SSL and the million dollar room and the patch bay just doesn't work.

Speaker 3 (00:49:57):

I just went through it, just went through it. And the house engineer, he is a nice dude, but he was so stressed. I was like, what I wanted to do, I was like, listen, I don't know the room. You got a lot of nice gear, so I want to grab all this. I just want to take, let's take all our input channels and let's molt everything. I was like, we'll use this half of the SSL for basically mic to converters to hard drive. Boom, that's it. Just straight mic to drive done. I was like, and then to use the patch bale, let's molt out so that let's grab all this outboard gear and on the other half of the duality, I'm going to just kind of go maybe a little bit more aggressive than usual and I'm going to EQ this kit on the fly.

(00:50:38):

I'm going to use all these awesome outboard EQs and all these compressors and I'm going to bring it in on the right side of the console and we'll do that. And he's like, okay, cool. But it didn't work. The fucking patch bay just wasn't wired right? Nothing was phase aligned. So I couldn't, if I wanted to use, alright, well if I went too hard on the compression on the snare, let me use the dry snare or recompress that, that's now irrelevant because it's not phase aligned with the outboard processed toms that I like or the overheads or whatever. So now you're just like, you basically got to pick one or the other, I don't know, shit like that where you're like, come on, why would you spend all this money and just not have it dialed?

Speaker 2 (00:51:21):

Well, that's what I mean about the professionalism part is I feel like sometimes there's just this, I don't know, something missing. There's this level of togetherness that is missing in some of these places that they just don't know because for instance, you go to a studio like the Hideout, the Hideout in Vegas that the Chicos own, we just did the last two nail the mixes there and it's gorgeous, unbelievable, and just multiple rooms with huge amazing boards. Everything's top of the line. And then on top of that, everything works. And if it doesn't work, they have replacements

(00:52:07):

And you need a new monitor or something, they'll wheel it in. You need this, you need that. They'll wheel it in. You need this patch to this. They'll do it. Everything just works. You need new monitors. Cool, got some. You need a tv, got one too. Anything you need is taken care of. And on a much smaller level, that's how I've always tried to run my studios within my abilities. So for instance, with my patch bay at my old place, my goal was to make it so that any engineer or producer from anywhere could come in and understand it and use it and figure it out within 30 minutes of being there. Figure out how to use my whole room within 30 minutes of course,

(00:52:55):

Because obviously when you first arrive to a studio, you're going to need a second to familiarize yourself with what's there. But that aside, the goal is always make everything just work so that when they get there, they can get to work, have nothing be so messed up that I can't fix it within, oh, that's not working. Okay, here I'll show up and tweak this one thing and now it's working. Make sure that all the gear is maintained so that if they need something, it's not like, oh, we had it, but it's getting fixed. Do they need different kinds of cables in order to connect something? I mean, I don't use many TRS cables, but I know lots of guys do. So have all the different kinds of TRS cables with XLR connectors on the other side. Just things like that that I've noticed. The good studios do take care of that stuff for the one situation where someone will need it and then all these other places don't spend the money on the really, really expensive stuff and then they'll forget that different people need to come in and plug stuff into it and they might need different kinds of cables to plug their gear into it or whatever.

(00:54:12):

It just seems like there's a level of customer service that these people aren't thinking of.

Speaker 3 (00:54:17):

Yeah, well that's the thing too. I've known a lot of dudes who've recorded in the area or whatever who went out of business because they thought that good gear will bring in clients. Nope, not even close. What have you done? How much does it cost? When can we get in? How long is it going to take? It's so much more relevant to landing clients than gear. I do occasionally get those spans who are just really concerned that their shit's going to run through X, Y sure, fine, but who cares? It's irrelevant. Do you like the work I do then? Cool. Why do I could make it with a goddamn fucking fucking talkboy effects? Who cares? Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:55:05):

Well, I think if a lot of people knew what actually went on the records they listened to, they'd be surprised. I remember even 10 years ago or more that the kidney bean pod that everyone makes fun.

Speaker 3 (00:55:21):

Oh, the red one? Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:55:23):

But that thing was used on so many huge records and I mean, I know it doesn't sound great, but again, back to what we were saying, it goes down to who's using it. So I know that that thing was used on lots of massive records and people thought that, I know lots of people who would think that it was some massive guitar chain with all these expensive amps, and then you find out, Nope, they just used a kidney bean pod and a story,

Speaker 3 (00:55:53):

And the guitar player was probably super good. And he was like, oh yeah, cool. That sounds fine. And he is like, my job here is to express myself, my instrument, not worry about what's in between me and what I hear.

Speaker 2 (00:56:03):

Yeah, exactly. I, and that's not to say that you shouldn't try to get the best tools you can get, but just that they'll only take you so far.

Speaker 3 (00:56:15):

And honestly, if you're not very good at this, then having too many tools will probably just fuck you up anyway. Just start simple. I'm very, put that destination in your mind and start finding the most efficient way to get to where you're going. And that's not to be lazy or anything like that. Sometimes that takes a bunch of microphones, sometimes it doesn't. It's like a famous thing with me. And when I record bands, they really want to see my guitar chain, all this stuff. And we do run through a lot of beautiful amps and beautiful pres and EQs and all that stuff. It's fine. But a lot of times they go, so you're only using one mic? And I go, yep. And they go, but isn't two better?

(00:57:06):

You're like, no, actually no. A lot of people think two is better because when they hear it, they get the three DB boost from two source signals being near identical, and so it sounds louder. And they're like, yeah, fuck yeah, that sounds great. But truthfully, good luck with your phase, right? You got to get your phase. So if you can do it with one, you immediately rule out a whole other issue that you'll have to deal with. If you can get your guitars done with one microphone, you don't have to worry about phase. Now, of course, if you can't get it done with one, if it's not sounding right and two mics makes it sound like how you want it, cool. But just know that you're going to have to deal with this other issue, which is phase alignment between mics, which by the way will never be unquote perfect, but it might be cool,

Speaker 2 (00:57:52):

Might be. I have a funny story. A lot of gear I inherited was not inherited, nobody died, but I inherited it from a failed experiment. This guy in Florida, super rich, I think he invented some sort of kiosk thing at the airport.

(00:58:14):

I don't know if it's the one that spits out your tickets, but he invented something like that and made tens of millions of dollars off of it. And his son wanted to learn recording, so he asked Jason Soff for some what gear to buy, and Jason went nuts with recommendations. And so this dude bought his 10-year-old son. First of all, he built him a perfect room, pretty much like Crazy Room, and he bought him a $25,000 system like Pro Tools hd all the way. The nicest chairs, monitors the kid had never even tried recording before and it got used for about four months and then I ended up with most of

Speaker 3 (00:59:04):

It. It's so sick. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:59:05):

And those recordings sounded so bad. The gear doesn't matter. It

Speaker 3 (00:59:09):

Doesn't matter. Yo, here's something I don't know how to do. I don't know how to fix my car. I just don't, when something goes wrong with my car, I'm fucked. Right. So you'd be like, got

Speaker 2 (00:59:19):

To get a real man to

Speaker 3 (00:59:20):

Do. Got to get a real man. Big, huge car fixing dick and shit. Fucking you can put me in the shop and be like, here you go Jay. Here's all the best shit. Your car's fucked up. So here you go. You should probably be able to make a pretty sweet car now. Nah man. I don't know how to use this shit,

Speaker 2 (00:59:43):

Man. You put me in that situation and the car is going to get worse.

Speaker 3 (00:59:47):

Yeah, right. Totally.

Speaker 2 (00:59:48):

I will definitely be fucking that car up.

Speaker 3 (00:59:51):

Unquestionably.

Speaker 2 (00:59:53):

So do you go anywhere else for recording or is it mainly just Australia?

Speaker 3 (00:59:58):

Oh, no, no. I've gone many places. I've done a couple records in Italy.

Speaker 2 (01:00:04):

Oh, nice.

Speaker 3 (01:00:04):

Yeah, I went to Germany last year and did some pre-pro with the band. They decided to, after talking with them, they decided to cut their record at my studio here in Boston. So we did the pre-pro, not too far from Munich, and then they came back here last January. And that record actually went to number two in the German mainstream charts. Oh shit. We fucking killed it. Yeah. And I think it's funny, he get all different types of dudes who come in or clients and girls too. Actually, there was a girl who sang for this band, super Babe, and really nice. And my process, I think especially in a band, they've dealt with other producers and some of these fuckers are all uptight and they come and hang out with me and I'm very just like, cool, let's do some shit. And when you're used to that uptight process, sometimes I think maybe I'm a little bit more punk than I think we make records that sound better than the vast majority of punk records because I'm a huge nerd.

(01:01:07):

I really love what I do, whatever, but sometimes I don't show it enough just with my, I'm not like an uptight dude. So people come in and I will say things like, oh yeah, I've never done this before, but sounds cool. So sweet. And you see the panic on their face. We're like, what do you mean you've never done this before? There must be a formula. And I'm like, no, no, no. My formula is no formula. And so some people are just like, yo, that is so awesome that you don't fucking care. I mean, I care about the output, but I don't care how I get there. But then some people who are like, but isn't it better if you low pass the Nah. I'm like, shut up. It sounds good.

Speaker 2 (01:01:46):

So stop

Speaker 3 (01:01:46):

Reading gear slides. Yeah, dude. Totally.

Speaker 2 (01:01:48):

Get off the forums. Let me make the record.

Speaker 3 (01:01:50):

Yep. Right. Honestly, I do like the quick slow spin around in my chair, like Dr. Evil style, and I'm like

Speaker 2 (01:01:59):

Petting

Speaker 3 (01:02:00):

The cat. Yeah, for sure. I'm just like, why are you here? You're here because you like the shit I did.

Speaker 2 (01:02:07):

So

Speaker 3 (01:02:08):

This is how I do it.

Speaker 2 (01:02:09):

Is that the conversation you have? This is actually interesting to me, this topic because we get asked this a lot and a lot of our subscribers have an issue gaining the trust of their clients. And it's obviously a tough thing to do when you don't have credits yet. The more credits you have and the more of a reputation you have, the more that people will inherently trust you because you have a wide body of work that precedes you and they're going to you because of that. So that makes it a lot easier in a way to tell them what to do. So of course it's definitely a lot harder when you're an unknown, but still you get backseat drivers

Speaker 4 (01:02:57):

And

Speaker 2 (01:02:58):

Armchair quarterbacks in the studio. So how do you deal with it now and how did you deal with it when you were first starting? Has it changed?

Speaker 3 (01:03:06):

I think the fundamental process hasn't changed, and I don't really think I'm better than any. So in my opinion, ultimately we're dealing with art. So there is no definitive opinion on art. But I'm more than happy to challenge you on, if you're coming to me real hot with this opinion about my recording process, say before people knew fucking jack shit about my records or whatever, I would say, okay, cool. Well let's just try that. And that can be fucked up because then people will be like, whoa, you just accepted my suggestion. So does that mean you don't know what you're doing? And it is like, no, I just, all suggestions are welcome and you want to try it, let's try it. And in my mind I'm thinking, well, we're trying this because maybe you're right. No, I probably don't think you're right. That's probably why we weren't doing it in the first place, but it's just better at that point, at that stage in my whatever career that I didn't know was going to be a career yet, it was better to let them do the thing that they thought and then watch it not be the outcome they expected it to, even though I already knew that.

(01:04:19):

And by doing that, that was a way for me inside of the session to gain a little trust. Maybe it takes 15 minutes and then we listened to it and then after they're disappointed with the outcome of their viewpoint on recording of which they have no fucking experience on, but read on a forum, I can then have a little bit more leverage to say, okay, so here's why I didn't think that was going to work. Here's why I'm going the way I'm going and whatever. And then I have for a long time and still continue to say, close your eyes, fuck the process. Do you like how this sounds? And that's a much simpler question to ask because they can go, well, yeah, and then you go, great. Or they go, no, it's close, but I just thought it would be warmer. And you go, okay, I'm used to these client adjectives, punchy, warm, whatever.

(01:05:11):

So I have things I do when I hear them and I start doing those things. And dude, it could be the smallest turn of a knob and next thing you know they're like, oh my God, yes, I love it. And the process is we didn't reinvent the wheel, we took the exact same process and I don't know, I fucking notched a frequency and that's all I did. So it can totally depend. Now I do more or less the same thing, but just that most of the time, not all the time, but most of the time my clients come in because they like previous work I've done. I would say actually more often than not now I spend a little bit of time in the beginning of the session sort of disenchanting the whole thing. Like, yo, I'm not Oz, I'm not fucking magic. I know a lot about this, but that doesn't make me more right? We're making art so I'm not, don't just go like, whatever you say Jay, that's my least favorite. Because then I'm just like, Ugh, fuck. Well, I don't know. I guess I'll, is this cool? And they're like, yeah, do you like it? You're like, yeah, I like it.

Speaker 2 (01:06:18):

I hate that

Speaker 3 (01:06:18):

Shit. Yeah, I like it. But do I mean if you like it, then yeah, I love it. You're like, so you don't have any individual thought.

Speaker 2 (01:06:27):

Yeah. Then you hear about it in the mixed notes though. Totally. That's what I've noticed is that when they don't tell you right away how they feel and they just defer to you, the truth is going to come out later when it's way more

Speaker 3 (01:06:42):

Inconvenient. And I'm lucky to be sort of a not shy guy, so I know that and I'm like, yo, is this, I can just see your body language. I see that. Look on your face. I have seen this before. I think that you're not happy, but you don't want to say anything. And then they'll get that little smirk kind of like, yeah, that's actually kind of what's going on. And I'm like, cool, then let's fucking fix it now. I want to do it now. I don't want to, what We're going to communicate through fucking email when you go back to Ohio or wherever, fucking North Dakota.

Speaker 2 (01:07:15):

Fucking Germany.

Speaker 3 (01:07:16):

Yeah, right. Germany via email. And then now we got a time zone barrier we got, otherwise I can just sit here and do stuff and then you can immediately go, yep, but what now? I got to send you a thing. You got to listen to it in your car and a thousand other systems and confer with all your homies and then come back to me and be like, yes, it is better, but I, and you're like, oh my God, kill me. So this is to it now,

Speaker 2 (01:07:44):

Man, there's a lot of power in the do it now. We call it the hot potato principle, which is that you should treat tasks as though you're holding a potato that was just ded and it's burning your fucking hand and the longer you hold it, they retain heat very well. I don't know if you've noticed, but if you bake a potato, I do, it'll stay fucking burning for an hour or more. The longer you hold it, the greater your pain is going to be. So we talk about tasks as being like that. You just get 'em done. There's a lot of power in just doing it now. I think

Speaker 3 (01:08:22):

Totally. Last time we talked about it, I said I was too fucking punk for di. I typically don't take di.

Speaker 2 (01:08:29):

I do remember you said that. Yeah, I, because I'm ballsy, man. Famous last words with that

Speaker 3 (01:08:37):

One. Nah, I just, dude, it's fine, dude. I don't take di. I do some edits. I just delete the original shit, dude. There is no backwards in my head. We go forward only, but it takes a level of experience and confidence to be able to just go forward. But that's something I learned. I remember I was hanging out at God's city and I saw Kurt EQing and compressing shit on the way in, and he's just like, yeah, man, that's what separates the men from the boys. And I was like, whoa, that is fucking punk. I like that. So I wasn't as good as him yet, but I just started fucking adapting that. I was like, I love it, dude. I do weird shit too, where in Cubase we can put plugins on the input channels and they print right into the file. So let's say I want to have a stereo delay on the guitar, and I tell the clients up front, I'm like, these plugins I'm putting on, they're getting written into the file as we play. So if you don't like something ever tell me because cannot undo, you basically can't undo anything I'm doing. That's it. This is what we're doing and we're doing it. If we like it today, why wouldn't we like it tomorrow? It also stops us from being myopic. And if you don't, you can wake up tomorrow and not like it. We'll just retrack it. It's fine.

Speaker 2 (01:10:00):

And you want to know something man, with certain types of things like delays or guitar effects or sounds like that, that you create in the moment with a guitar player or musician. That's the kind of stuff that you can't get back. I

Speaker 4 (01:10:15):

Totally agree.

Speaker 2 (01:10:16):

So you may as well do it right then and there and get it right, because no amount of tinkering after the fact is going to bring you back to what it was, in my opinion.

Speaker 3 (01:10:25):

I totally agree. And as a guitar player, man, I want to play, I'm a guitar player, so I want to play to how it's going to be. I don't want to play to a fucking grid and then have some loser tell me, just wait, man, when I'm done, this is going to be sick. And now one, I got to fucking trust you. Nah, why don't we make it sick Now? Are you going to be 10 times the engineer next week when you mix this? No. So just let's do it now.

Speaker 2 (01:10:55):

I have a theory that lots of these methods of recording were developed by people who had to solve a problem and the problem was the musicians. And so they were created by engineers who had to deal with musicians who liked to write beyond their means, write beyond their ability to actually play stuff, but still had to get the stuff done. For instance, I'm pretty sure that the Andy snip sound of the early two thousands happened because he had to mix an album that was tracked kind of shitty, and he couldn't use lots of the natural drums

(01:11:41):

Because they sounded horrible. And so he got that fat city snare and just made it sound big. And then that band got huge and that became the sound, but the sound that he created was based on fixing a shitty recording. And I know that a lot of these editing tricks or note by note recordings or slip editing style recordings that spawns from just dealing with shitty guitarists a lot. So I think that it does need to be said that while I love what you're saying, and I wish that every project could be like that, I feel like the musicians need to be on a certain level in order to be able to do that. And I know that with Kurt, for instance, I'm pretty sure that he still lives by this. If they can't play it, he won't record that. You can do that. You can do that. I guess in some genres though, you can't always get away with that because say you work in a more, I guess, commercial metal genres. Well, one of the things that's rampant in those genres is that motherfuckers can't play,

Speaker 3 (01:12:51):

Right?

Speaker 2 (01:12:52):

So some of these techniques are there just to get you out of a problem.

Speaker 3 (01:12:57):

Totally. Yeah. And when the musician's a problem and you're a guy like me, it's probably a bigger problem than when you're a guy, not like me. I've done it all. I've done the di shit. I've edited the fucking guitar di and the band. I've done the amps and cool. That's cool. I'll do it. If we have to do it, I'll do it. I'll do whatever we have to do. Like you came to me, it came to make a record, and if that's what we have to do, I'm down. But if there's a guitar player in the room that's better than everybody else and he's better than the bass player and he is whatever, then we're going to have the chat. We're going to say, yo, you guys are all lovely people

Speaker 2 (01:13:41):

And you look lovely today.

Speaker 3 (01:13:42):

Yeah. And you look great. We'll grab some coffee and beers later, whatever. But the guitar player number one here is really fucking good. And you should probably just let him do it. He's just, that's it. And I don't feel bad. It's your call. So if a label's paying me, I got to do the right thing for them. I got to make it the best sounding record I possibly can. If the band's paying me the conversation's a little bit more open, my name still goes on it. So it's a weird thing, but it's like it was your job to know how to do this, and you don't know how to do it. So it's no disc. This happens all the time. I'm not mad at you. It is what it is. Your jokes are super funny. I wish your feet didn't smell so bad, but you aren't as good at guitar as this other dude. And we came to make a record. We didn't come to stroke egos, so we're just going to have this guy do it. And yeah, you're bummed and you're going to text your girlfriend about what an asshole I am, I guess. But yo, you're the asshole. You're supposed to know how to do it. You know how to do it. And you showed up and you didn't know you didn't do your fucking homework. So what do you want? You get a bad grade.

Speaker 2 (01:14:54):

It's interesting that you put it that way. Back in the day before my band was signed, I got a bad reputation around town for firing people

(01:15:04):

From the band. And because people would get fired, then they would go tell all their friends at the tattoo shop that I was a monster and people hated me. But the way I saw it was they're the fucking dicks. I set a standard I wanted it to be at, and I told them, and we had songs and that you had to know how to play. And if you weren't good enough, then what are we doing? If you're not going to do the work, then what are we doing this for? I am not in this to fuck around. I'm in this for career. And if you're not, that's fine. But if you expect me to work with you, then you're just a fucking dick. I'm not the dick. You're the dick for not putting in the work and for expecting me to lower my standards for you

Speaker 3 (01:15:52):

Fully with it, man. Fully with it.

Speaker 2 (01:15:53):

Yeah. So maybe my problem was that I didn't communicate it as cute as you do, because I could see that it would be hard to get mad at you if you communicated the way you do. And I got to say that there's something to be said for knowing how to deliver tough news with humor and grace to minimize emotional trauma. That's

Speaker 4 (01:16:19):

Right. In

Speaker 2 (01:16:20):

Your clients. But I do completely agree that you're not the dick if you're the one who has to have the chat, because it's not like you enjoy having that chat. No,

Speaker 3 (01:16:32):

I hate it.

Speaker 2 (01:16:34):

It sucks. It the dicks for putting you in the position to have to even say it in the first place.

Speaker 3 (01:16:40):

Yeah, yeah, totally. It's like, yo, I'm not mad at you. This happens all the time. I just have a little anxiety about it because the results of me saying this to bands varies band to band. Sometimes you get guy who sucks but is mad, hardheaded, and now you got to deal with that. It's not pleasurable. And then sometimes, oh, you luck out, you get the guys who come in and go, you know what? We want the best. Thank God you said that. We want the best record possible. Anything you say is cool. And if someone can play it better, there's no egos here. The bands that come in, they're like, yo, there's no egos here. It just has to get done. You're like, oh, that is so sick. That is so sweet.

Speaker 2 (01:17:19):

Do you ever get the guys that are relieved?

Speaker 3 (01:17:21):

Yeah, all the time. Dudes who are just like, oh, because they know. They're like, yo, I can't do it. I'm not good. I can fucking fake it a little bit on stage. I'm pretty much just here to impress girls and hang out with my friends. But this guy's the guy. There's always one guy who's the guy, and he's going to do it. He's the best. He wrote the goddamn songs and now what he's given away, his parts to people who didn't write them aren't as good, just out of some weird democratic fallacy. And then as the engineer, I got to sit there and go like, oh, well, and weigh it out. And it'd be like, all right, are these guys cool? Are they assholes? Can I tell you this? Are you going to freak out? What's going to happen? Ultimately, I'm going to tell you, and I hope it doesn't go poorly.

Speaker 2 (01:18:13):

So have you experienced the guy when you do have the guy in the band and he's just way too nice?

Speaker 3 (01:18:22):

Yeah, for sure, for sure. I've experienced both ends. I've got the guy who's the guy who's way too nice, who if I let him do everything, we would have a sick record. And he's so fucking nice that I'll just watch the rest of his band shit all over his art. And then he's just sitting there going like, no, you got it, man. You got it. And I'm going, he does not have it. He's about three years away from having it. Three years of dedicated practice. This session's only two weeks long, so there's no way We got three years to train Darrell how to fucking play triplets, right? So we just got to let Ethan do it. He wrote it. I've had that, but dude, because I am kind of like a nihilist dark guy, I love when one dude is mad critical of everyone. He's all up in everyone's ass about every fucking take. And then he comes up to the plate and he just fucking sucks.

Speaker 2 (01:19:28):

Oh yes, that's beautiful. Oh

Speaker 3 (01:19:29):

God, it's poetry. And I just go, I'm like, oh, I thought you were going to suck and you do. This is great. Have you said that? No, because then I just go, oh my God. I just go, Nope. Wrong behind late out of tune. Nope. Try again. I don't.

Speaker 2 (01:19:48):

Oh yeah, you bring that hammer down.

Speaker 3 (01:19:50):

I know. And then I just, because he talked mad spit, he was just fucking ripping about everybody else. Then he comes up, I can't fucking play. So you're like, oh, you're a douche. You're an asshole. So I'm just going to silently like silently twist that knife. Oh dude, I'm just going to turn it just deep and fucking. And then he has to bow out. Motherfucker has to put his tail between his legs and we let Ethan back on the ax, and Ethan shreds it, and Darryl can piss off. And you, well, you shouldn't. And I would've been nice to you because if you're not super good at your instrument, but you're legit, you're honest, you're a courteous fucking nice human because I'm not out to get anybody. If you're just like, yeah, if you can be, I don't know, maybe this is fucked up. Maybe I should just be nicer. But if you could be, if you're like, Hey man, if there's anything, please let me know. I know that I'm struggling with this part or whatever. If you're coming to me and being like a hundred percent real, yo, we are thick as thieves. We're bros. It's good for sure. But if you're going to fucking spit that fire in all your dudes, your friends, your band mates, and then come up and suck it. No, you can suck it,

Speaker 2 (01:21:10):

Man. I have definitely dealt with those types too. And I cannot tell you the pleasure it used to give me to watch them walk away defeated. It was just so good. It's

Speaker 3 (01:21:23):

Fucked up because

Speaker 2 (01:21:23):

It so good.

Speaker 3 (01:21:24):

It feels amazing. I understand. I am not blind to the fact that that kind of makes me a dark, weird asshole. I get it. I get it.

Speaker 2 (01:21:34):

Yeah. We're all dark, weird assholes in a way. I mean, we do work on, I think that even though we don't work in the same exact genre being attracted to these genres, I think anyone who makes a living out of these has got to have a little bit of dark weirdo in there. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:21:56):

Because it's just a weird job. What a weird thing you tell your mom. What do you do? Oh, I fucking

Speaker 2 (01:22:04):

Sit in a cave and look at a screen and listen to the same thing over and over and over and over again for about 12 to 16 hours

Speaker 3 (01:22:12):

A day for a record that's going to sell like 10,000 copies. You know what I mean? Make a nominal impact on society. But I just

Speaker 2 (01:22:22):

Love it. Fucking love it. Has your love for it only increased? Has it stayed the same? Do you feel about it differently now that, I mean, you're in a different place than you used to be. You were dude in a band at one point now your dad traveling around producer, you've had underlings who've gone on to do their own work. You're in a different place, has sounds like you're still passionate about it

Speaker 3 (01:22:52):

Though. I'm so passionate. One thing I realized, so with the band stuff, what really fucked us, fucked me fucked whatever was money always. It's like, yo, it's art. So if we're making art, whether it's with a band or with, it's making a record, whatever the moment, you can't be dependent on art, in my opinion, and still have as good of a shot at making the best quality output. I think you need a very low, give a fuck about what anyone's going to think to make an authentic product. And so some things I've done as a human and as a dad and whatever, for as much as I cuss and I'm insane, I am buying investment properties. I, I'm a good saver and I'm putting things together that set me up so I'm not fucking rich or even close, but I'm doing things that make it so that I don't have to stress as much about what I'm recording or I don't know. I can have fun with it.

Speaker 2 (01:24:00):

You don't have to be rich to have financial independence.

Speaker 3 (01:24:03):

Right. That's exactly it. And so I can just kind of, a band comes in and I'm here to make something that matters way more than I'm stressed on anything else. I am here for the relationship between me and the artist. And if that relationship means we're really concerned with making a popular poppy product, then I'll say, okay, cool, let's have fun with that. But I don't have to worry as much. Not I have zero worries, but I don't have to worry as much about stressing on it. So I think that keeps it fun, that keeps it, I'm doing this, it's at will. You know what I mean? It's at will. I want to do it. I think it's fucking great. So when I go to work every day, I think I'm doing this. I chose to book this. I think this band's cool. I

Speaker 2 (01:24:57):

Got to say that the thing that really made it tough for me that made me seek other things was financial stress. And I've been doing well for years, but more just the financial stress that I have to take certain things well, had to take certain things that I hated in order to fulfill X financial goal. And I guess that that sounds kind of spoiled, but if we're talking about art, art doesn't care if you're spoiled or not. Art is just art. It lives in its own little world and you have to be in the right mind state to make art. And if you're worried about money and you're not really into it, then how are you going to make the best art possible? It's going to be tough.

Speaker 3 (01:25:52):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (01:25:53):

You can. So it led me to seek all these other things I'm doing, but now I'm a much happier person. Of

Speaker 3 (01:25:59):

Course, man.

Speaker 2 (01:26:00):

Of course. It makes a huge, huge difference. And I think that it's interesting you that about that fucking your band too, because the level of hatred that my band developed for each other when we were financially stressed was unbelievable.

Speaker 3 (01:26:15):

Oh yeah. Oh, that's the realist shit, for sure. Oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:26:19):

That is a level of hate that I hope I never experience again in my life.

Speaker 3 (01:26:24):

I know I just recently started, I guess it's kind of announcing it now a little bit, but I just recently started a new thing. I thought I was done with being in bands, but we're not going to do what we used to do or even close. But I did start kind of a new deal with, I really cherry picked the people that I've worked with over the years that I think have something special to their plane, to their delivery, to their vocals I picked and people that I thought would sort of gel with me artistically.

(01:26:57):

I'm fortunate that I've worked with so many people that, and I have these great relationships. I picked something, I'm really, really proud of what we've done so far and right from the rip on this, the deal is like, we're not going to tour full time. This will never pay anybody's fucking bills. Yes, I'm fortunate to have connections. Yes, it'll probably come out on a cool label. Yes, we'll probably do some a Euro fest here and there, you know what I mean? But we're not like I'm done circling the fucking country in an econo line trying to sell shirts to kids. I have to. It's like we're going to make something that we think you already did that. Oh, I did it. Oh, I did. So yeah, now it's like, no, no, no, no. I'm not going to play shows for a living. I'm going to make art. And if enough people want to see it live, we'll consider going and facilitating that. But I'm not going to be like, yo, we need to take this tour because we can convert their fans and then their fans will like us. No, nope, nope, nope.

Speaker 2 (01:27:59):

Those days are over. I don't have a desire to be in a band now, but if I ever did get the bug again, it would be a thing like that where I know enough musicians to where I know I can get together something really incredible. I know I can get it on a cool label if that's even needed. I know that we could get to the point of doing some cool festivals and all that stuff, and that would be fine with me, but I would never in my life agree to jump in a van again. Probably not even a bus. Maybe a bus depending on the situation, but probably not. But definitely never a van ever again involved.

Speaker 3 (01:28:43):

It all depends. My wife's great. So she worked for Resist Records in Sydney. She's booked international tours. She ran, in my opinion, the best rock punk rock hardcore venue in Sydney. And then she met my stupid ass and fucking moved to America and we had a baby. And now you ruined your life. Ruined your life. And there's a laundry list of women who would check off, Jay Maas ruined my life, and this is, here we go. There's another one. But she's sticking with it. And if I'm going to go out and do this stuff, man, I'm bringing the fam now. My wife's coming in and she can tour manage, or she can just hang. We'll get someone else to do it, dude. My son's going to come and I'm not going to go out and tell fucking I want to do it as I want my family to travel with me.

(01:29:33):

I want this experience. I want my son to not be some nationalist douche bag and meet people from other countries and realize we're all the same. Just like I got to do with music. I want him to experience things that are just outside that mediocrity. That can be the fucking American dream. Don't get me started on this shit, but I want, you know what I mean? I want him to have these experiences that are unique and different and he doesn't have to give a shit about music. But I think just traveling alone, maybe going to a fest, maybe meeting some people, maybe whatever, even at a young age, being socialized, I think that is just so sick. And not just sit in our fucking house scared of stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:30:22):

I can tell you that I was traveled from a young age all over the world because my dad would do concerts and different places, and it gave me a perspective on the world that I only find in other people who have been around a lot, people who know how good we have it here, but also know what isn't good about it and know what's good about other places or terrible about other places, but that it's not just this place rules and everything else sucks. Yeah, exactly. It's a wide world out there and there's everything from amazingness to horrible hell that you can encounter in that wide world. But I think that it's really, really important to see it from a young age because there's something about it being part of your character, that perspective, that worldly perspective that I think will set someone up for a better life, in my opinion.

Speaker 3 (01:31:25):

I couldn't agree more. I have an interesting perspective where I, I didn't get to do any of that shit till my mid to late twenties. So I was just a dude in America doing America guy stuff. And I had traveled to California, Boston a lot and Seattle where I'm originally from, but that was something that maybe was a little bit more than some of the other friends I had had done. But once my band kind of got some legs and we were just kind of going everywhere, probably my favorite thing about the whole experience is how it changed me as a person. I feel like I grew so much just traveling and realizing that everybody just likes the same stuff. They want to fucking laugh, eat stuff, hang out, probably bang, drink, sleep, likes, go swimming. Everyone kind of likes, you know what I mean? Everyone kind of likes the same stuff and yeah, you think God's real and Well, guess what, man? I don't Oh well. Swimming's awesome though, right? And I dunno, who cares?

Speaker 2 (01:32:30):

I completely agree. I think that most people will get over that kind of stuff if you find something in common like swimming or music. Totally. Yep. And I've gone to some pretty scary places too, where music makes them a lot less scary. The people are into what you're bringing. Interesting. How there are some places where if you just went there as a tourist, your experience would be far different than if you went there as someone bringing music.

Speaker 3 (01:33:04):

Yeah, I agree. I would say I had that experience in Russia, and I had it in Israel too where I was like, wow, these places are very, very not Western. They're not like America whatsoever. But the people I was with, they were awesome. And they were like, do you want to smoke this weed? And I was like, I don't even really smoke weed, but yeah, let's do that. Sure. We're swimming in the Dead Sea High as fuck. Who can beat that? I don't even really getting high, but I was just like, this is an awesome experience. Sell a fucking win in Rome or in this case, winning the Dead Sea. Just do it. Aren't you glad you did? Oh dude, you kidding? It's crazy.

Speaker 2 (01:33:43):

Yeah, that place is pretty rad. I love it there, man. I think it's so cool that you're, that all this cool stuff you've done, you're passing down

Speaker 3 (01:33:53):

Trying to,

Speaker 2 (01:33:54):

That that's the goal.

Speaker 3 (01:33:55):

Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 2 (01:33:55):

Well, like I said at the beginning of the podcast, I've talked to a lot of kids or they're not kids now, but dudes who did get that, and they're typically remarkable people.

Speaker 3 (01:34:10):

Cool. Well, fingers

Speaker 2 (01:34:11):

Crossed for Dean. I'm sure it'll work out just fine, but hey, so I think I'm going to end the podcast now because we've gone

Speaker 3 (01:34:19):

Way over quite

Speaker 2 (01:34:19):

Long. Yeah, no, which is great. Love that. I'm sure that we could keep going too, just like we said last time. So I'm going to just open the invite now to have you come back on in a few months.

Speaker 3 (01:34:32):

Oh, cool. Yeah. Thanks man.

Speaker 2 (01:34:33):

And keep the conversation going.

Speaker 3 (01:34:35):

Yeah, I always love doing it

Speaker 2 (01:34:38):

And maybe at some point you want to do nail the mix, not to put you on the spot. I don't know if you're mixing style is something that would be appropriate for it, but if you think it is, I think it would be really awesome to have you on because I don't think we've had a mixer that does things your way yet.

Speaker 3 (01:34:57):

I would love that for nothing else than just to offer people whatever, it's to be my perspective, which might be contrasting to some other perspectives. If it offers them nothing more than to realize that there is no right way, then that alone is a win for me.

Speaker 2 (01:35:15):

Well, maybe we can talk about doing that later this year. When you're here, you really only need one weekend free to really do it. Yeah. Cool. So I'm sure that we can figure that out, dude,

Speaker 3 (01:35:28):

Down

Speaker 2 (01:35:28):

Either way, man. Thank you for coming on. It's been a pleasure. And everyone go to jammas.com. That's MAAS,

Speaker 3 (01:35:37):

Right? Yeah, two a's It's Dutch, like the river in Holland. MAAS.

Speaker 2 (01:35:41):

That's right. And go listen to his awesome work. Thanks,

Speaker 1 (01:35:44):

Man. The Unstoppable Recording Machine podcast is brought to you by Ivans Guitars and Basses. Ivans strives to make high quality cutting edge musical instruments that any musician can afford and enjoy. Visit ivans.com for more info to ask us questions, make suggestions and interact. Visit URM academy slash podcast and subscribe today.