JOEL WANASEK & EYAL LEVI: How Songwriting Kills Your Mix, The “Filler Riff” Problem, and Why You Need Drum Samples

Speaker 1 (00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast, brought to you by Ivanez Guitars and Basses. Ivans strives to make high quality, cutting edge musical instruments that any musician can afford and enjoy. Visit ivans.com for more info. And now your hosts, Joey Sturgis, Joel Wanasek and Eyal

Speaker 2 (00:21):

Levi. Hey everybody, you are listening to the Joey Sturgis Forum podcast and I am Joel Wanasek. With me today is Eyal Levi as always, and Joey is sick today. So how are you doing, Eyal?

Speaker 3 (00:31):

I'm doing all right, man. Just going through the motions of moving while trying to do nail the mix and the podcast and live life, so crunch mode, but happy to be here and happy to be talking to you because you're a wonderful human being. It's a Christmas spirit, dude.

Speaker 2 (00:48):

Is it just me or are we the only people in the world that seem to work inordinately insane amount before Christmas? Or I should just say the holidays in general New Year's Christmas.

Speaker 3 (00:58):

What's a holiday?

Speaker 2 (00:58):

Exactly?

Speaker 3 (01:00):

Yeah, I mean it's like what's a weekend? I mean, I always thought it was funny that in the music industry, the managers and the labels would all take off on the weekends, but the people in the studio and the bands would keep working through the weekends and holidays.

Speaker 2 (01:20):

Absolutely amazing. I mean, I have 16 songs to mix here and we're shooting this, what, two days before Christmas Eve or something? Oh no, that's tomorrow, isn't it?

Speaker 3 (01:27):

I believe Christmas Eve is tomorrow. Yes. Oh,

Speaker 2 (01:29):

Geez. Yeah. Okay, so I have all these songs that I need to turn in and I think I've gotten maybe five of the 16 I need to get done this week, so I'm kind of freaking out, but I don't know. It'll be fine.

Speaker 3 (01:40):

It'll be fine. It always is. So let's get into it. First song that we're going to crit is going to be both a song Crit and a Mixed Crit, and it's by a J Vianna, and the name of the song is Einhorn is Finkle. So here it is.

Speaker 4 (02:10):

What's a perfect thing to say when together, when it all down, we'll even make a sound. Catch me with a place I, a place I'll never find again.

Speaker 3 (05:10):

Yeah, okay. Well, I'll just say this. I kind of liked the intro guitar tone at first, and I liked the way the Toms sound when it first comes in, but then after that it loses me because the snare roll comes in and everything just dips in volume and there's a scream and it just sounds like it's in a reverbed out hallway. So that's where the mix starts

Speaker 2 (05:34):

To lose me. Yeah, I'm actually going to beat the crap out of this song and this mix. I feel like I'm going to be the brutal guy here this week. There's a lot of things in this song I'm really struggling with and I feel like it could be a really sick song, and I've definitely listened to a lot of the, let's just call it general punk music, for lack of a better term.

Speaker 3 (05:52):

Yeah, pop punk. That's basically

Speaker 2 (05:53):

What this is. I've listened to a lot of those bands and that genre and stuff, and so I feel like I got a pretty good gauge on what's great and what's not great on this. And I feel like, I mean, we'll get into the song in a little while. I've got a lot of things to talk about on that, but let's talk about the mix. I actually thought the guitar was super weak and it was boxy and it just lacked a lot of clarity.

Speaker 3 (06:12):

Yeah, I agree. I just thought that was cool as an intro, I figured that that was kind of done on purpose in the intro and that

Speaker 2 (06:21):

Not the real guitar tone,

Speaker 3 (06:23):

And then as soon as it comes in, it's like full frequency. Well, eqd big. That's what I was expecting. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (06:30):

That's a great analogy. Actually. There's a band I've been referencing recently on some mixes called Against the Current on Fuel by Ramen that I've had a few clients that wanted to really dial in that kind of sound. And when I listen to something like this, I expect to hear a mix kind of in the vein of against the current. And if you listen to something like that, if you're going to have a really weak ask guitar to like this without a lot of gain where the guitar isn't that much of a driver in the mix, the guitar needs to one, have some serious low end two, you need to have some better drums that have a little bit more sub push on 'em and a little bit more density and weight, and you have to have a base tone that actually drives the mix. And I feel like none of those things are happening.

Speaker 3 (07:10):

Lemme tell you a little bit about why I think that is in part, first of all, he used a PRS with stock pickups, and I know because in my band, the other guitar player was endorsed by PRS, their stock pickups. I mean, they make different ones, but they're not usually good for this heavier kind of stuff. And then he used Amplitude.

Speaker 2 (07:34):

Yeah, okay. That would explain it. I mean it just needs, I dunno. Okay. I think mix wise, if you take some of the Paramor records, I don't feel like that's not adequate comparison for this type of sound. So if you listen to something like Paramor mixed by Crystal Lord Algae or David Eth, you hear the guitars really aren't super high gain, but the drums and the bass really drive the mix and make it sound awesome and just this whole mix feels weak to me so they could get away. I feel like with that kind of guitar tone, if it had a little bit more balls to it, but I mean I'm talking about the level of gain, but it just needs more bass. The whole mix sounds weak because of it and it needs better sounding drums. I will say the kick is kind of cool, but I feel like the kick isn't eqd right to fit the mix. It's a little bit too boxy. There's just not the right amount of enough of the correct frequency and the correct space. The bottom end isn't right. The top end doesn't right. It just needs a lot of work.

Speaker 3 (08:24):

I want to give hats off for at least attempting real drums because very few people even do that anymore. Did you feel like the snare needed just a shitload more 200 in there?

Speaker 2 (08:36):

Yeah, it definitely did. I like the tone of the snare and I thought it sounded good, but it just needs that extra, I don't know, it just doesn't sound dense and it doesn't sound beefy to me. It doesn't sound exciting. It sounds kind of flat.

Speaker 3 (08:48):

That's exactly what I was thinking. I actually thought that the snare itself could be a good sounding snare, but I felt like the EQ was just kind of wrong.

Speaker 2 (08:58):

Yeah, absolutely. Now, what do you think about the guitars? I thought they were way too loud across the entire mix.

Speaker 3 (09:03):

Yeah, I thought that they were too loud and I just thought that they were a little weak, but it's kind of like, now that I know what it was done with, I can't imagine them not being weak. But yeah, I definitely do think that they were too loud. And I've got a lot more comments on the guitars when it comes to the writing aspect, but what's interesting to me is with them being too loud, I lost a lot of clarity in the choruses and stuff like that. They are overbearing yet, it's hard to tell what the hell is even going on.

Speaker 2 (09:38):

Yeah, I'm totally with you. It's just too boxy and I dunno, it just doesn't drive the song, but I feel like that could be compensated for with the correct leveling and balance. Like I said, I'm really wanting to hear a lot more bass and kick. Here's one that really got me and I'm still struggling with it even though I've listened to the song several times now, is what is the vocal panning? What is going on?

Speaker 3 (09:58):

Dude, it's not just the vocal panning, it's the guitar panning too. And this kind of intersects with my songwriting part of the grit, but I think it goes together because for instance, we know that a song needs to be arranged in a way that will make it easier to mix. So in the pre choruses it does this guitar panning thing where it's like one lead on one side on the other side and something down the middle with the vocals on the left and vocals on the right. And

Speaker 2 (10:26):

I feel like

Speaker 3 (10:27):

Confusing.

Speaker 2 (10:28):

This is a poppier song. I don't want to say a pop song. It still has the punky edge to it, but I feel like any song that has a poper feeling needs to not be distracting because it's irritating because you want to feel the energy of the song or the emotion. So this song has kind of got an upbeat feel good vibe. I haven't actually listened to the lyrics enough. I was more interested in creating the mix and things like that. But overall, I feel like all that panning is distracting me, right as a listener. So I'm having a hard time just getting the vibe and the energy off the song because it's constantly like right ear, left ear, right left, right, left, and it's just bombarded me with bullshit and I just want to hear the song

Speaker 3 (11:02):

And for too long because

(11:05):

It goes on like that for way too long during the pre-chorus, it just left, right, left. And I just wanted to say that, let's take an example of a band that's kind of in this style, a lot popular, but who also has some busy guitar parts and that would be Fallout Boy, take the example of Fallout Boy, if you want to hear a band that will sometimes have arpeggiated guitar parts or multiple things going on, yet their vocal melodies are always right there out front. You know exactly what he's singing. It all works together. The arrangements are perfect, hence why they're absolutely huge. But if you're going to be doing this kind of stuff, try to compare against Fallout Boy to get an idea for how that's done when it's done at the highest levels. Because right now I feel like I'm listening to a metal guy trying to do pop punk and still not disassociating themselves from the too many notes thing that metal guys do. So yeah, all the panning I feel also there's tuning issues. Oh my God. Feel. Yeah. I feel like that's also hurting the mix because if parts are canceling each other out because of the tuning, it's just never going to sound that big. But you've got lead guitars that are out of tune, vocal harmonies that are out of tune. There's tuning issues all over the place.

Speaker 2 (12:29):

Yeah, it's terribly tuned and now I think it might've been maybe a naturalist band, and I don't know what I read any of the mixed notes on this or what was done or what the vibe is, but I listen to this. I feel like the singer probably came in, it's like Nude, no autotune, bro. My shit's real. And the engineer's sitting there,

Speaker 3 (12:46):

No, no, no. They use Waves Tune.

Speaker 2 (12:48):

Oh, they did. Well, they didn't tune it and they need to tune it. The whole, I don't know, it sounds like the vocalist just won it in one take to demo across it, just like here's the general idea. It doesn't feel like he actually sung it. That's the best way I can think toward it,

Speaker 3 (13:02):

And it's just distracting. Everything

Speaker 2 (13:04):

Else on the market is so in tune that when you hear something that's out of tune, it stands out like a sore thumb. And again, it completely distracts from the vibe, the energy, and the excitement of the song. I want to listen to the song, not the tuning and focus on that. It's just adjusting your focus as a listener to something that doesn't need to be focused on.

Speaker 3 (13:20):

Well, he also said that he did no samples on the drums, and I'm going to just say that this is a perfect example of why you should use samples on the drums because we already both acknowledged that the snare, that natural snare itself could be a good sounding snare, but it just needs more beef to it, more weight, more just more oomph, and that's what a sample would give it. You could blend them and keep the coolness of that natural snare you got, but give it the size and just the impact that you want on a professional recording by blending it with a sample. That is why you use samples. It's not always just to completely replace something shitty. A lot of the times it's just to enhance something because let's face it, natural drums will not generally give you the kind of impact and size that is part of the professional standard.

Speaker 2 (14:14):

Yeah, absolutely. Now, here's another thing that was kind of weird. Did you feel like the vocals are really disconnected with the effects from the song? What I mean by that is the reverb delay, whatever was on that, the whole mix was very dry and the vocals just didn't have the right effects balancing, and because of that, the entire mix didn't gel at all. The vocal was just vocals in space kind of.

Speaker 3 (14:35):

Well, I mean, that's back to my very first comment about the vocals where at the beginning of the song where that snow roll comes in and there's a scream, but it sounds like it's across the street reverb wise, where it really should be in your fucking face, and then the song explodes to your speakers and it's just upbeat and energetic and fuck yeah, I want to eat pizza and make out with pop punk, those kind of thing. But instead it's just like, you think it's going to be a slayer song at first because of that riff and the dun at the beginning, and then suddenly the dude is screaming from across the hall and it peters out.

Speaker 2 (15:14):

Absolutely. Well, I don't have any more mixed notes. I just think a lot of things need to happen on the mix, and it's kind of in my mind a hundred percent redo. Just go back in, reapproach it from a drum and bass mindset instead of a guitar mindset. Maybe clean some things up and see if you can get a little bit more energy into the song.

Speaker 3 (15:32):

Okay. Well, I do have a few notes about the song itself, and we did cover some of them already because the arrangements do affect the mix. But yeah,

Speaker 2 (15:41):

I have a lot. So you may have the floor. Awesome.

Speaker 3 (15:44):

Well, the first thing I wanted to say was that opening guitar riff could be cool if you bring it back and use it and turn it into parts. It could be a good bridge. It could be all kinds of different things. You could make it super heavy and cool. Lots of pop bunk bands have super heavy riffs that they break down on. Not a hardcore breakdown, but the pop punk version. I'm just saying that because the riff comes back with harmonies and it's just sometimes you just want to go back to the simple version of a riff just to drive it home. So that would be the first thing. But the other thing, this was a big one, is that pre-chorus man,

Speaker 2 (16:26):

Oh my God, we're going to talk about that.

Speaker 3 (16:29):

Yeah, well, we were talking about it in context of a mix, but I got to say in context of songwriting, that pre-chorus just goes on way too long and it's just whoa, whoa, whoa. Kind stuff panning back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. Then with a harmony back and forth, it's like, what are we doing? If that was maybe half the length or less leading into the chorus, then it might work well, but it's confusing to listen to and then it goes into a chorus where maybe the spacing between the words is good, but I don't even know what he's saying. I can't understand the lyrics, and I feel like for this kind of stuff, I need to understand the lyrics. I need to know that the dude isn't getting his texts returned from the girl or that they're going to order pizza and go skateboarding or whatever the fuck they do.

Speaker 2 (17:18):

It's summer and we're going to party because it's Friday night.

Speaker 3 (17:20):

Yeah, exactly. All those pop punk things that people do, you need to understand that in the lyrics. There's no room for ambiguity with that stuff. Pop punk is in part a lot about the lifestyle. So if you can't understand the lyrics, what the hell? What are you doing?

Speaker 2 (17:38):

Well, I'm going to one up you on that and say it's just stupid. I feel like it needs to be completely rewritten. That may sound harsh, but it's true. I literally sat there, no

Speaker 3 (17:47):

Agree. And

Speaker 2 (17:47):

I turned around and I looked at my assistant and we just started shaking our head and we're like, what the fuck is this part? And then all of a sudden the chorus kicks in and we're like, what? It sounds harsh, but listen, here's the thing with the pre-course, okay, it doesn't go anywhere. It takes too long to get to the point, and it sounds like a bridge. It doesn't sound like a pre-course. It doesn't build any tension. It doesn't build any excitement or offer any sort of dynamic contrast from the verse. It's literally just a sideways lateral movement. And then when the chorus comes in, it barely even goes anywhere. So the pre-course either needs to be cut in half and rearranged or something. It's stupid. No one cares about a noodling guitar and whoa, melodies. And then the chorus comes in, that's like what happens after the damn chorus, but then the chorus has some whoa style stuff.

(18:29):

It's just, whoa, whoa, whoa. It's too much. Damn, whoa. It just doesn't go anywhere and it doesn't make any sense in the song. And I feel like it was just put there to put there, Ooh, look at this stupid little guitar lead in this silly little whoa thing. And then, okay, now we have a chorus. We're kind of just going to do the same thing. Get to the damn chorus from the verse, because the verse melodies, I actually thought were pretty good. There could have been maybe a little more variation in them, and the verse felt good, and I liked the energy and the vibe. It felt like something I'd expect to hear from the genre.

Speaker 3 (18:58):

The verses were at the point where if they got in with a good producer, you could tweak some stuff and be good to go.

Speaker 2 (19:05):

Yeah, absolutely. And then it hits that pre-course, and I'm just like, I completely lost interest in the song and I was just like, okay, I'm checked out. Then the chorus comes in, and then the chorus was super weak. Where's the hook? And the chorus, it's so forgettable and weak. I can't remember a single word of the lyrics. I can't remember a single note of the melodies, and I think I can remember the symbol drumbeat, but that's it.

Speaker 3 (19:24):

There's only one thing I liked in the chorus, which was attention note when he goes a half step down in one point, but that's not enough to hold a chorus together. And back to how long the pre-course is, why is the pre-course way longer than the chorus? It makes no sense. The pre-chorus is supposed to build the tension that you then release on the chorus. It's not supposed to be a section that's longer than the chorus, and then the chorus is just like an afterthought.

Speaker 2 (19:53):

Yeah. Another thing about the chorus too is I feel like I know what they're going for. The long held out, whoa, kind of gang vocally, pop punk chorus. There's a lot of bands that have done that come to mind, but they didn't do it right. I feel like they listened to that. They're like, oh, cool, let's write something in the style of this. But it just wasn't good. The chord movement is there to write a really awesome melody. They have the riff and the chord movement and the bass and the drums there,

Speaker 3 (20:18):

And they even hit that tension note, which was really cool.

Speaker 2 (20:21):

Yeah, it could have been really great, but just the entire melody needs to be retooled. And if I was writing that, I'd literally sit down with the band and I would just walk in and be like, listen to it and be like, that's shit. Now write me 10 more chorus. And they'd be like, and I'd be like, all right, let's sit down. And we would come up with 10 different ideas, we'd cut them all down, and then we would listen to them and be like, alright, which one of these really stands out and really makes you excited about this song and gives you goosebumps? And it just doesn't have that kind of chorus. It's just like passable next track on the cd. And that's not what a chorus is supposed to do.

Speaker 3 (20:50):

And keep in mind, if you did sit there and make 10 choruses and keep making new ones until you get the one that gives people goosebumps, you won. That's all you need to do. That's the goal. All you need is one song that does that to people. And you've got a career, at least the beginnings of a career. Lemme

Speaker 2 (21:09):

Clarify what I mean by 10 different courses, by 10 different courses. I mean, I would sit down and we would write the best hook we can possibly think of where we're all stoked about it, then we'd hit the mute button and then we'd do it again, completely different. And then again, and then again, and try different styles, like types of melody. Let's try staccato versus legato. Let's try different repetitions of motives with word repeat or wordplay and things like that. And we would try to write 10 great hooks and then see if out of there, there's one amazing one that actually is going to resonate with people that people are going to be able to remember. And I feel like every song should have something that's going to be memorable. And if you can't remember it by the second or third chorus, the hook is absolute shit. And I remember we kind of talked about that with Kane Chico.

Speaker 3 (21:51):

Yeah. And just to elaborate on that, you probably should be doing that with the pre choruses as well, because you really want to make sure that what comes before the chorus takes you there properly. The journey to the chorus needs to really take the listener on an emotional journey. So it's not even just about the chorus. Yes, you have to sit there and make sure that you get the exact right chorus, but you can't just slouch on that pre-course. That pre-course has got to go,

Speaker 2 (22:26):

I feel like a lot of the best pop songs, let's go back to eighties, early nineties, a lot of those songs, every line in the entire song is a hook. So the verse is catchy, the pre-course is really catchy. And then the chorus is super catchy and every part of it is memorable. If you listen to, I'll Pull a Madonna song, get Into the Groove, every single melody in that song is incredibly strong and a hundred percent completely memorable. I'm not saying you can do that in the style of song over the kind of riffs, but it's something to think about just to hold your song to a standard. When you hear a verse and it comes in, you want to remember that verse when you hear a pre-course, you want to remember that. And when that chorus comes in, you want to remember that chorus so much, you can't get it out of your head. And then that's the song that's going to get repeated, shared, liked, passed around, et cetera.

Speaker 3 (23:11):

I've got two examples for people to check out and not in the follow-up boy style or whatever. So number one, what the hell is that Justin Timberlake song called The one where it's like, take it to the chorus.

Speaker 2 (23:24):

I'd have to listen to it again. What

Speaker 3 (23:27):

Is it? Sexy Back? Is that the song? Alright, yeah. The reason I'm saying check out that song as an exercise, it's because every time he goes to a new section, he tells you, he says, take it to the bridge, take it to the chorus. So he's basically showing you exactly how a song should transition. And if you analyze the differences between the parts, that's a really, really good exercise. Another song to check out would be in a whole different style, for instance, would be Make Me Bad by Corn. And the reason I say that is because the pre chorus doesn't change from the verse musically very much. It's just the vocals, but it leads it into the chorus perfectly. You just pay attention to how different the three sections are, verse pre, chorus, chorus in this song that we're talking about right now. Everything is just way too samey. Way, way, way too samey.

Speaker 2 (24:27):

Yeah, it's very flat. There's no dynamic to the actual arrangement of the song

Speaker 3 (24:31):

And there's no tension. Music is about tension and release, ebb and flow. There's none of that going on. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (24:38):

Absolutely. I'm a hundred percent with you. Well, I have one more crit on this song, and I feel like the singer style, tone and voice kind of sounds out of place. And here's the reference I'm going to use. Again, this is going to sound ridiculous and harsh, but I'm kind of in a brutal straight to the point kind of mood today. So it sounds like a drunk dude at the bar just rambling over a pop punk song. I feel like if I'm at the bar with some friends and we're totally wasted and just an instrumental comes on and we're like, let's sing some pop punk and just that's what I feel like is going on. The singer sounds like a drunk dude just warming up over a track, having fun and not caring and no one's around so no one knows that he's singing. Just absolutely not self-conscious about it. Just, I don't care. I'm just going to make noise and sing in my car really loud. That's what I feel like the song is.

Speaker 3 (25:24):

And that said, go rewrite

Speaker 2 (25:26):

It. But there is definitely, I feel like a lot of calculus to make a great song out of this. It just needs to be revisited with a different mindset. And I'm going to pull this back. I used to play in a thrash metal band that was very melodic. So think a lot of Gothenburg style, mid 2000 guitar harmonies, iron Maiden throwback stuff if you're older. And then I switched to a radio rock band and it was really weird for me because I came up being a shredder and everything neoclassical and composed and very technical. And then I joined a rock band and it was just like pentatonic scale, guitar, blues, dirty bendy, double stop kind of stuff. And I had to relearn in a year my entire league guitar soloing style because my first record I did with that band, every solo on there sounded like a metal dude playing in a rock band. And then on the second record, I finally figured it out that I now sounded like a rock guitar player playing in a rock band. And it was really kind of an eyeopening interesting thing for me because it didn't come naturally at first, but I kind of had to retool it. So I feel like the song has to be approached from a different mindset and to kind of forget what and revisit it.

Speaker 3 (26:32):

If a band came to me with this song, I wouldn't ditch it, but I would certainly make them rework the fuck out of it.

Speaker 2 (26:41):

And I feel like that's the job of the producer too. I mean, for example, when I'm writing with a band, I'll walk in, I'll be like, all right, play me like 20 riffs. Just give me everything or songs and they'll play me some parts versus, and I'll be like, eh, that's cool, that's, but I always look for that one where I'm like, that's sick and I get really excited about it. And you get that initial energy and vibe and then what happens is the band feels that energy and if they reciprocate it, then you're ended like, okay, everybody stop. We're working on this right now. And then you go until you lose that spark. So you got to find the songs when you work on 'em that we go through all the bands record, and then they show you the song that you get the spark and you're like, this is the song on this record. And everybody gets stoked on it. And that's where real great songs I think are made.

Speaker 3 (27:18):

Yeah, absolutely. Alright,

Speaker 2 (27:20):

Well let's take a look at the next track here

Speaker 4 (29:26):

For you.

Speaker 3 (30:03):

All right, so that song was called Derelict by the Band Empty Visionaries, and that was submitted by our subscriber who produced and mixed this Robert Kla. And I got to say, man, one thing that I really like about this is the energy. And I feel like one of the things that a lot of modern guys lose in their mixes, and I don't just mean people who submit mixes to us, I mean all the way to the top. I feel like for music this lots of times in modern production, people lose energy. You don't have that momentum that makes you want to bust through a wall or something. And I feel like that is maintained here. And so for that, I've got to give props. I do feel the energy in this song, and to me that's a big deal.

Speaker 2 (30:54):

I like listen to this at the gym for sure. It gets me fired up and pissed when I listen to Panera, I get fired up and pissed and I'm like, hell yeah, I want to lift weights or punch some shit. And I kind of get that same vibe off this song. And I think he did a pretty good job in the mix. I mean, there's a few things that I feel like leaves some room to be worked on, but definitely overall he did do a good job mean as well as the song too, and producing and things like that. There's some songwriting things that I feel like I would tweak, but overall I feel like we're definitely on the right path and it's pretty good overall.

Speaker 3 (31:24):

Yeah, I completely agree. If I was producing this, there are some things I would make the band change just for their own sake. But again, I just got to say that to me, the most important thing about a production or a mix is the vibe, how it makes me feel because that's most important to the listeners. How does it make them feel? Does it make them happy? Does it make them sad? Does it bring up a breakup? Does it make them angry? Do they want to work out to it? Do they want to drive fast to it, they want to punch a wall, or do they just want to hit stop and check out something else? And with this, yeah, I felt like my heart rate going up in a good way. So

Speaker 2 (32:04):

Yeah, he nailed the vibe of the mix, which I think is 90% there because after that it's like, does it sound like a song? Yes. If yes,

Speaker 3 (32:12):

Everything

Speaker 2 (32:13):

Else is really kind of trivial. So we're almost there. Okay, so let's break down to specifics. First off, I just want to say I love the kick drum. I think it's sick, but I think the snare has no punch. It's too boxy and flat. It needs a little bit more snapper trouble and maybe a different sample. It's like the kick is really badass, but the snare is kind of weak. And if the snare was really badass too, it could help drive the mix. Just that extra little bit of energy. I think

Speaker 3 (32:37):

I've got some comments about that. I like the kick, but I do feel like there's times where it's overbearingly loud and yeah, I mean I like the way it sounds, but I feel like it's so loud at times that it's at detriment to the mix. For instance, in line with what you were saying at about a minute long, there's a ride part, he's on the ride going with fast double base and the snare is just non-existent. And one thing that I will do in parts like that where it's like straight 16th kicks going fast and a snare on two and four or on three is I would literally duck the kick when the snare is hitting and just set up a side chain that would work to help it just pop through a little more. But I agree that a better snare would help. And it's extremely evident on the fills. I feel like the fills are the dead giveaway that the snare needs a lot of work.

Speaker 2 (33:35):

Yeah, definitely. Well, I have another solution to Al. I think that the bass in this song is pretty weak

Speaker 3 (33:40):

And

Speaker 2 (33:41):

It sounds good, but if he turned up the bass guitar, which would give it even more energy, there's just a lot of room there for I think a lot of volume. And especially if it's really tight and under control, meaning it's got a nice amount of limiting on it, it could really drive the energy of the track more. And I think it would take the perceived overriding volume of the kick and not make it seem so brutal and over the top. So if just that base came up like three to five DB or I don't know, maybe that's too much. I'd have to have the track in front of me, but it just needs more base. And that might actually override some of that focus on the kick.

Speaker 3 (34:15):

Well, it is not everywhere that I thought that at the beginning where it's a fast part where it's fast on the snare and fast on the kick. I can tell that the kick is a little lower in volume and it doesn't bother me. But then as soon as it goes into a pattern, it's just like, whoa, bass drum. And then it goes into double bass. It's like, whoa, Nelly. But then when he goes back to another fast part with the snare that has double kick, I feel like he's got it at a good level. But you're right, more bass would help. I did notice that it was lacking a little bass though. I did like that I could hear the high end of the base. I did hear that growling in there, and I feel like that

Speaker 2 (34:53):

Helped

Speaker 3 (34:53):

The energy out.

Speaker 2 (34:55):

The base just needs the balls. It's like it doesn't have that really. And I think it was a little bit too rangey if I remember correctly. And it just needed a little bit more bottom to it or maybe upper base frequency, very lower mid range, somewhere in the a hundred to 200. It just needed a little bit more fullness and volume. And I think it just would take that mix and really add a lot. Now I will move on from that and say that I think the vocals are really good. I dig the production on them, and I didn't really have any comments on the vocals. I really liked how we mixed them. I liked all the doubles on 'em. I liked how it sounds. Everything sounded awesome there to me. Do you like the vocals?

Speaker 3 (35:35):

Yeah, except for one part, but I don't think that this is the vocalist fault.

Speaker 2 (35:39):

Oh, at 1 45 there was that background vocal thing. It was kind of like, maybe we'll call it a bridge of the song or something around that area. And I felt they really needed to come up. He was saying something and I can see how they wanted to bury it down, but I couldn't make out the words

Speaker 3 (35:54):

That. And then there's a solo guitar solo at the end where it's kind of shitty Sweep city.

Speaker 2 (36:03):

Oh, I've got, yeah, we'll talk about that part for

Speaker 3 (36:05):

Sure. So first of all, it's your typical out of key, sloppy, wannabe lead guitar metal thing where the dude should just not be soloing. Sorry guys. But

Speaker 2 (36:18):

Yeah, that whole part was bullshit and rising.

Speaker 3 (36:20):

Yeah, it should not, if you wanted to put something interesting there, maybe have a texture guitar or a much more simple lead guitar or something, but not something where a guy wants to shred and especially not while there's vocals going on at the same time. Come on. And then there wasn't even an attempt to separate them via panning or anything like that. It's just like sweep, sweep, sweep, and not even good sweeps, but just like sweep, sweep, sweep and then vocals. And it's almost like they didn't communicate with each other as a band about that. I feel like this band probably practices, this is actually a recorded band. This isn't faked, but I've had situations like this where a band will write their shit in Guitar Pro all in separate homes, and then they get to the studio and have never really compared notes. And so you've got vocal parts over solos and they never communicated about it. And then instead of fighting, they just want both of them in there and it's dumb.

Speaker 2 (37:27):

Yeah. Well, here's the thing. Okay, I have one more note on the mix, but I kind of want to get into the song side of this and I have a lot to say and exactly the same point. So let me proceed this and say real quick, I thought the guitars were ratty and a little boxy. You need to get rid of some of maybe the 700 on the guitars and clean up the two to four region to get harsh. But aside from that, let's go back to talking about the riffs now, that middle section, that it's a tempo change with the guitar sweep. I hated that. And I'll tell you why. A big thing for me in metal, and I absolutely hate when bands do this, and I get it, some genres, it's cooler, whatever, when a band has a cool riff and a cool vibe going, and then it's like they can't think of another riff, so then they just come up with some stupid part to throw it in there.

(38:11):

And let's just be heavy here and scream a lot and play some silly league guitar. And okay, now let's go back into that really awesome part that we wrote for the beginning of the song. And I feel like a lot of bands have that problem. It's like where they write some really good rifts and they can't come up with another two or three good rifts to really carry the song and they go into something that's just there for filler. And what happens is when you hit those parts, it loses energy. And that's definitely something I felt at that middle section. It's like it didn't fit in the song, and then they reiner it. They're like, okay, well we're done with this idea, so screw it. Just bring that intro back and let's flow that. And they also did that in the intro too. They had the intro, then they go into that, I don't even know how to describe the right band, band, band kind of thing. And then they slow it down or whatever into a different feel, and then they just re-intro it because they couldn't get a good transition and then just repeat the vibe. And I hate that shit. It's like just come up with a new cool riff that's got something interesting for the listener to hear that doesn't destroy the vibe or the energy of the song.

Speaker 3 (39:08):

You got to keep your foot on the gas and a song like this, in my opinion,

Speaker 2 (39:13):

You can't just run out of gas and okay, we're just going to restart the idea, taking the record kneeled and going back to the beginning of the song that for me as a producer really drives me nuts.

Speaker 3 (39:22):

There are times when it works, but it's got to make perfect, perfect sense, different style. But OPEC are masters of this where they'll have the beginning section of the song, which has a song called Master's Apprentice. People who eth will know the song with, it's like the Morbid Angel riff, which goes on, it's a section of the song that goes on for a while, and then whenever it comes back to it, it makes perfect sense. Macedon does it too, very, very well. There are ways to do it, but the thing is it's got to build tension, build, build, build, build, build. And then it releases that tension by bringing back something familiar. We ran out of ideas, we can't figure out what to do, let's restart the song.

Speaker 2 (40:13):

Who's a real master of that? That's I feel like very much in the style of this band is like, go back to vulgar display of power Pantera. So we're going to knock this back some years, but if you listen to a new level, for example, you have that crushing awesome riff in the beginning, then they go into a really sick verse and just the way those two rifts, they're completely unrelated, but the way they transition, the way it flows and feels, it feels like an actual song. And I feel like that's where we're getting lost here is there's some ideas, but it's like we had one really awesome idea for a song and a great vibe, and then all of a sudden we kind of have a BC idea. Okay, let's go back to the awesome idea. Okay, now let's go to a not as good of idea. Okay, back to the awesome idea. Okay, now we're done with the song. And it's just like I would've pushed the band as the producer. Yeah, that part's all right, but let's write something better. See what you can do. And like I said, a good reference for that would be Pantera. It's just so well constructed and they have all these really sick rifts and then they've come into a really great part and vibe and I mean, like I said, the song's pretty good overall. It's just being nitpicky and really cleaning up those little transitions.

Speaker 3 (41:16):

But how about an example of something that's also more in the chaotic style, like old mastodon. So if you go to the remission album and you listen to the song Crusher Destroyer where it's got that riff that opens the songs and it's just like, fuck yeah. And they bring it back a bunch of times, they bring it back perfectly. That is a perfect example of how to keep recycling a rift, but keep the energy just going. So take a listen to how Maid on Pull it Off if you don't want to listen to the sellout bands that we were mentioning before, like Pantera and opec,

Speaker 2 (41:55):

Sellout bands.

Speaker 3 (41:55):

Well, Mastodon in 2003 were playing tiny clubs.

Speaker 2 (42:01):

Yeah, Pantera just there's no arguing with it. I know. I don't know what to tell somebody if they don't like Pantera and they say they're metal, but maybe I'm just old and gray.

Speaker 3 (42:12):

I can understand in some ways if it's just before their time for some reason.

Speaker 2 (42:21):

But dude, vulgar display of power, just go to the gym and turn it on, and then when you're done working out, you'll be like, dad, dude, fucking vulgar. Display of power. And that's it. There's no argument.

(42:32):

I know. Alright, well let's talk about a couple things that we really did in this song, and I really thought the vocal patterns, rhythm variation delivery was really awesome and the vocalists did a really kick ass job and it was really well produced, meaning the doubles came in at great times where it really emphasized things that were important as well as side vocals and things like that. I dig all the patterns. It didn't get boring vocally. So I think that if I was producing this track, I would really just go back and try to push the guitar players to write that second or third really badass riff that's kind of missing in the song and then rework that bridge or maybe make it a little bit better.

Speaker 3 (43:10):

Well, the thing about the bridge when it goes to that tom part, first of all, two things going on, the kicks are drowning at the Toms, so it's hard for me to even tell when the Toms are going on except for when the kicks aren't playing and then it's like, oh, there's Toms and they're often the distance. So just the balance again, that just goes back to what I was saying earlier that I think that there's certain section of the song where the kicks are just too loud, but the Toms are kind of non-existent in the Tom part, but also the tom part sounds like a little bit of an afterthought if you're going to do a Tom part like that, like a Tom break in a song that's high energy, at least do something like the opening of the song Territory by Spel Turo. The way it starts with the Toms where it's super energetic, if no one knows what I mean, then just look up that song. I'm not saying you should sound like an old band, but what I'm saying is they started with a Tom section and it keeps the energy super high. So don't just bring it down in a song like this. There's ways to use Tom's for energy.

Speaker 2 (44:25):

I'll tell you this about that song territory. That was one of my first metal records when I was a kid, and I still remember out of that song, I remember the chorus section and I remember that Tom part and I don't really remember the rest of the song and I haven't listened to it in over 20 years. So that'll tell you something.

Speaker 3 (44:42):

The guitar solo sick octave guitar solo. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (44:45):

That's a great record. I mean, SPEL Tur really was amazing back then,

Speaker 3 (44:50):

But I bring that song up because the Tom part. Yeah, you haven't heard in 20 years and you still remember those doms.

Speaker 2 (44:56):

Yeah, it's a legendary fill. It's just like the double bass part in the Lion's Den, morbid Angel Covenant. No one did shit like that back then. And I mean it just memorable. And a lot of music today lacks that identifying feature where you hear that and you're like, oh wow, that song, you hear that sound and you just immediately know that it's that song.

Speaker 3 (45:16):

Exactly. So I would suggest if you're going to go to a Tom part in the bridge, maybe grab some influence from bands who have done that sort of thing, but who have done it in a way to where when they go to the tom part or the drums alone part or whatever, it takes the song to a new height. It's not just some random tom part. We've got a bridge.

Speaker 2 (45:40):

I have one more thing that's really bothering me in this song, and I hate, and I mean hate random tempo changes just to put a tempo change in like, dude, this port's really heavy, bro, we should slow it down 20 bpm. I feel like the tempo change really kills the momentum of the song. And I kind of touched on this earlier when I was talking about riffs, but I hate just having a random tempo change in the song just for a section and then going back and it just feels out of place to me and really struggled again, the guitar players didn't deliver the goods and didn't write the cool riffs or come up with a part that was going to be dynamic that was really going to perpetuate the song and make it exciting and interesting.

Speaker 3 (46:18):

Now let me clarify something because I agree with you that random tempo changes are dumb.

Speaker 2 (46:25):

I'm not saying all tempo changes

Speaker 3 (46:26):

Just No, no, no, of course. But sometimes they do this all the time in pop, there'll be tempo fluctuations through an entire song. Like a chorus will be a BPM or two BPM faster. It'll go to a halftime part and drop down by two bpm. It'll be, yeah, tempo changes that are so subtle that you can't hear them, but what it does is it brings out the intended pocket of the song better. So if you go to a breakdown after a fast part and you lower the BPM by two or three, it gives it more time to get to that snare that's on the three that's going to really make that breakdown slam. That kind of stuff Makes sense. But just random drops of 20 or something. Why you better have a good reason? Because

Speaker 2 (47:11):

We couldn't write a better riff. That's why, that's the only reason why, I mean, like you said, sometimes you just need to lock a groove and go up a couple, and I can understand swings of five, even 10, but when it's that much of a drop, it just really, I don't know. If I was at the gym, I'd be like, hell yeah. And all of a sudden you get to that part and I'd just be like, all right, well, I'm going to drop the barbell on my chest and choke myself because this sucks, so

Speaker 3 (47:37):

I'm going to just take a nap.

Speaker 2 (47:38):

Exactly. So I would revisit that part. I mean it's not like it's horrible or the worst thing.

Speaker 3 (47:44):

You don't want to take a nap while you're bench pressing.

Speaker 2 (47:46):

And the thing is, if you do the tempo change, this is something I just thought of too, is that it's really a generic kind of breakdown that they put there. So it's not like they had some really awesome part where you're like, whoa, now that's sick. It was just like, alright, breakdown. Heard the same breakdown 400,000 times from every other band that's ever done a breakdown, what's new here? Nothing. So it didn't even add anything. It was just kind of like they took a song that had a cool vibe and they went super generic on that part because they couldn't write anything else better. So I would've just really punished the band into coming up with something better or at least tried to.

Speaker 3 (48:19):

The song ILAs by Slipknot,

Speaker 2 (48:23):

I'd have to listen to it. I'm sure I've heard it.

Speaker 3 (48:26):

Of course you've heard it. It's track three on the original record. It's the second song because the first song is just intro noise, but it's track three and it has that ending riff that's just like the most killer groove ever with the bends, and they keep slowing it down and slowing it down, and then eventually they slow it down by like 40 BPM or something. But it makes perfect sense because it's so heavy and it's so destructive the way they do it makes perfect sense in the music. It's not random at all, so just don't think we're saying that tempo changes are bad, but it's like it's got to serve a musical purpose. You don't just do it because you couldn't think of something cool to do. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (49:17):

There's definitely two levels or several levels of songwriting and this song I feel like is pretty good songwriting in a lot of places, but if you want it to be great, and I mean top tier songwriting, those are the things that you really need to hone on and pay attention to

Speaker 3 (49:31):

If you want it to be that opening track on the Macon record that helped launch them. You got to get that shit together. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (49:38):

Some songs go on albums and some songs build careers, and that's pretty much the only way to put it. I mean, if you're writing a song, you might as well try to make it a song that's really going to launch your band. And again, not every song you're going to do is going to be amazing. It may take you 2000 songs to write that one. That really is amazing, but you should always make your best effort best foot forward in trying to make that song.

Speaker 3 (50:02):

And not every song is going to be your single either, but that doesn't mean that it's not going to launch your career. There are some songs that are just album songs and live songs that are just as great as the singles. They're not meant to be the ones that get the video, but they're just as important. They could be the song that makes audiences go crazy. They could be the song that opens up the record and just sets the tone for what's to come.

Speaker 2 (50:27):

Battery Metallica, I mean, if you want get really, really old school, but I mean you go back and listen to those records and all of those songs were great. You could just listen to the entire record, not just, okay, here's the two or three good songs on the record. A lot of albums are now, you would just hit play. Well.

Speaker 3 (50:41):

Yeah. Well, I know what you're saying and I think it's just important to note that we're saying this because not every song has to be verse pre-course, chorus verse, pre-course chorus. There's songs like the one we're just talking about now that just kind of follow their own heavy song structure, which is more just about energy, cool riff energy, but within the structure of that type of music, you have to keep in mind what's important about that type of music, which is keeping the energy explosive the whole time.

Speaker 2 (51:16):

Yeah, some records, you just hit play and you listen to the whole record and every song is great. Maybe there's one song on the record you don't listen to, but those are always the best records in my opinion. So strive to do that and just write great songs. Alright, well hey, we're out of time. Hopefully this has been beneficial. If you guys haven't checked out, nailed the Mix yet, hopefully you, you need to get enrolled and check this out. We're going to be showing you guys how to up your mixing game and do all kinds of cool stuff and giveaways and it's definitely worth doing. That's www.nailthemix.com?

Speaker 3 (51:48):

Yeah, you get to watch us mix songs live on air for you guys that we have sent you stems to. So you get to mix, have your best shot at it, and then get to watch us mix it and show you how it's done

Speaker 2 (52:04):

While asking questions, interacting with us and making fun of us,

Speaker 3 (52:10):

Which is the best part.

Speaker 1 (52:12):

Absolutely. Alright, well thank you. Thanks guys. The Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast is brought to you by Ivans Guitars and Basses. Ivans strives to make high quality cutting edge musical instruments that any musician can afford and enjoy. Visit ivans.com for more info to ask us questions, make suggestions and interact. Visit URM academy slash podcast and subscribe today.