MIKE MOWERY: Burning bridges, networking without being a punisher, the abundance mindset

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast, brought to you by tele Funken Electroacoustic Tele Funken. Electroacoustic has been following the tradition of excellence and innovation set forth by the original tele Funken GM BH of Germany that began over 100 years ago with one foot rooted in the rich history of the brand and the other in new microphone innovations for both stage and studio applications. Tele fun in electro acoustic is recognized as one of the industry leaders in top quality microphones. For more info, go to tunk.com. This episode is also brought to you by Fascination Street. Mastering Studios have your songs mastered by Jens Boian and Tony Linn. The engineers that mastered bands like opec, dmu Borg, gear Arch, enemy creator, SPEL Toura, Amman Marth, and many more. By using the coupon code UR M1 eight in the online Mastering configurator, you'll receive a 15% discount on your order. The code is valid for the rest of the year. Visit www.fascinationstreet.se to learn more and book your mastering session today. And now your host, Eyal

Speaker 2 (00:01:13):

Levi. Welcome to the URM Podcast. I am Eyal Levi, and I just want to tell you that this show is brought to you by URM Academy, the world's best education for rock and metal producers. Every month on Nail the Mix, we bring you one of the world's best producers to mix a song from scratch, from artists like Lama God, Ms. Suga, periphery The Day to Remember. Bring me the Horizon pec many, many more, and we give you the raw multitrack so you can mix along. You'll also get access to Mix Lab, our collection of bite-sized mixing tutorials and Portfolio Builder, which are pro quality multitracks that are cleared for use in your portfolio. You can find out [email protected]. Also, I want to take a second to tell you about something I'm very, very excited about and it's the URM Summit. Once a year, we hold an event where hundreds of producers from all over the world come together for four days of networking, workshops, seminars, and of course hanging out.

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This industry is all about relationships and think about it, what could you gain from getting to personally know your peers from all over the world who have the same goals as you, the same struggles as you, and who can not only help you with inspiration and motivation, but also with potential professional collaborations? I've seen a lot of professional collaborations come from the summit in the past, and speaking of networking and relationships, there's no other event where you'll get to learn from and hang out with some of the very best in the production business. I mean, you could go to something like Nam, but good luck getting more than five minutes with your hero at this. You actually will get to hang out, like hang out, hang out, and just a few of this year's instructors are Andrew Wade Kipa, Lou Blasco, Taylor Larson, Billy Decker, Canan, Kevin Charco, Jesse Cannon, and more seriously, this is one of the best and most productive events you will ever go to.

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So if that sounds like something that's up your alley, go to URM summit.com to find out more. On this episode of the podcast, I've got my old friend, Mr. Mike Mowery, and we have an interesting relationship. I think that his relationship and mine really does. It really does bring home or encapsulate that cliche about how the music industry is the most relationship driven industry in the world. Our friendship sums it up quite perfectly, and if you don't know who he is, let me give you a brief introduction. He's the president and managing partner of Outer Loop Management, which he started with Jeff Cohen in 2004. He's managed quite a few important bands over the years, like Periphery, and we came as Romans. He's always got something new started is involved in different conferences. He started the Jabber Job podcast network. He's got a podcast with Blasco Call Managemental.

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He's just one of these guys that's always doing stuff. He also sells online courses on music business stuff. They're actually quite good. He's going to be coming to speak at the summit. The man does a lot of stuff, and I've known him for quite a long time. I first met him when he came by my old studio, my house part of it when Carnifex was recording. I was just assistant engineer on that one. Then it was during the drums, so the drums were taking place at my house, and this guy, Mike Mowery, the famous Mike Mowery, came in and he did not give me the time of fucking day. Thanks Mike. And I think I met him again on a car effects record or something like that, and dude, just maybe he gave me two seconds of the day, something like that. But hey, that's how it goes.

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As time went by and the years went by, we kept on bumping into each other again and again and again. Until now. He gives me all the time in the world, all day every day. Is Mike Maori day? No, I'm kidding. He calls me and I answer. I call him and he answers. We actually talk about non-business stuff. We'll have deeply personal conversations saying, what are you wearing? I'll say, I don't know. What are you wearing? I'm totally kidding, but we've become real friends is the point. And now that we've become real friends, it's very easy to do business together and to say no to each other about business things we don't want to do together. We can be very, very forward with each other. We can get murderously angry with each other, and then everything is cool because we're friends. That's part of what helps the music industry survive, I think, is that you can have a friendship.

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You can call each other at 11:00 PM at night. You can have what you think is the best idea in the world, and either the person's going to go with you or they're not, and you could disagree and get mad at them or you could not. But the point is, all that'll happen and the next day your friendship will still be intact, and that's a very, very special thing, and that's something that I have with just about all of my music industry friends, and I think that that's pretty unique to, I guess at least Creative Industries, just this 24 7 ideas at all times. Got to be able to shoot down your friends, got to be ready to go to battle with your friends, but when you get up in the morning, you're still buddies. That's a very unique thing to the music industry, and I think it takes some getting used to, but I love it. So we're going to talk a little bit about that, but more importantly, how do you even get into those circles in the first place to where you can have those relationships that comes through networking, and you can do that either right, or you can do it wrong. There are many more ways to do it wrong than right. So we're going to talk about that. So without further ado, I present you Mike Mowery. Alright, so Mike Mowery, welcome back to the Unstoppable Recording Machine podcast. How's life in la? Dude,

Speaker 3 (00:07:06):

It's doing well. Thanks for having me back. I'm a huge fan of what you guys do and always enjoy talking to you. I think we could probably just record most of our phone calls and have some of the beds podcasts out there.

Speaker 2 (00:07:21):

I actually think that's true, though. I don't know. I could get in trouble for some of the shit we talk about. Well,

Speaker 3 (00:07:27):

You do edit them, right?

Speaker 2 (00:07:29):

I do agree with you. Yeah, we do edit them.

Speaker 3 (00:07:31):

Nah, but life's good in la. I'm recently transplanted out here. I don't know how long that will be for, but I don't know when this podcast will air. Got a lot going on with one of our artists. Ice nine Kills at the moment. Record release is October 5th, which is a whole bunch of stuff leading up to it. Labels out here, attorneys out here, agents out here, singers out here, might as well have the manager out here as well. You know what I'm saying? All you guys out there and we call the Managemental audience loyal listener land, so I'm just going to use that. I feel like we've got some overlapping audience. So all of you loyal listeners out there of the URM podcast, just remember, it's all about relationships.

Speaker 2 (00:08:12):

It is though. I got to say something. I mean, it is true. It is all about relationships and I try to tell people that all the time and I take it really seriously, but this idea that you can never burn any bridges at all. There's this idea out there that if you burn a single bridge, you're fucked for life. You know what I'm talking about?

Speaker 3 (00:08:37):

I don't, but I can probably guess and I'm sure I can talk on it. I can pretty much talk on anything you allow me to.

Speaker 2 (00:08:44):

Okay, well, I know quite a few people who are very wise actually, who told me that a lot coming up. But the thing is, I think that that's easier said than done. If you're going to go through the world and not be a pushover, at some point you're going to burn some bridges. And I just want people to know that while you should never try to do it, sometimes you will. You can't salvage every single relationship on Earth. It's impossible, and you shouldn't feel like your life is over just because something didn't work out. There's always a path to success if you want one, and you don't need every single relationship you've ever had to be on a positive, a plus rating at all times. It's just not possible. It's a nice thing to say and it's a nice ideal to strive for, but in reality, in this nasty world we live in, it's just not possible. So I just felt like saying that because we are going to talk about the importance of relationships, but I want people to remember that life is not over if you fuck up or some are just not meant to last.

Speaker 3 (00:09:53):

I mean, I'm trying to find the mad ball lyric where I'm pretty sure it's mad ball where he says, A wise man once said to me, my son, something about never backing down from anyone. And here it is. Don't you ever back down to no one? It's show. No Fear is the song, and I think that what you're saying is perfect for a black and white world, but we live in a world full of gray. In fact, our world is almost entirely made up of gray, and therefore, I think it's all about your intentions and how you handle yourself in the event that something is done wrong. The thing that I have learned, and it's taken me a really, really, really long time to learn this in life is it's all about what you can control. So if you go into a situation with the best intentions and someone else interprets it as something other than that, in fact, your best intentions may lead to something that is negative for people. That does happen. I don't want to get too deep into it, but it could be your best intention to have your best intentions, but that's getting a little meta. The idea is,

Speaker 2 (00:11:03):

No, I get it though.

Speaker 3 (00:11:04):

You can only control what you can control. You can't take ownership of how someone interprets what you say. You can't take ownership of how something falls out in a business relationship based on something that yes, maybe you've done. Maybe you've tried to put something together in inevitably the whole thing fell apart and because you tried to bring someone in, it affected their life, right? As long as you're willing to acknowledge that you went at it, given it your best shot, recognizing that you might have to learn some things and be a little humble and try not try better the next time, but educate yourself so your best intention sets things up for the better. And lastly, I'm huge on this because sadly, I've offended a lot of people throughout my career not even knowing that I was doing so just, yeah, I mean, look, I'm rambunctious. I'm very passionate about my artists. Sometimes I let that get the best of me, so I go and if I've burned a bridge, I acknowledge it and apologize. What I can't control is whether or not someone on the other side actually is interested in hearing what I have to say in that apology or allowing for my apology to actually resolve whatever the challenging component was.

Speaker 2 (00:12:17):

Sometimes they will be, sometimes they won't be.

Speaker 3 (00:12:19):

Yeah. I mean, I just don't think you can go in with a can't just into obliterate everyone, right? You can't just say, well fuck you. Whatever I do, I don't care what the consequences are. I wouldn't recommend that. I also wouldn't recommend that you have to please everyone and you have to tiptoe around people, and I think the beauty of relationships is in that gray in the balance there.

Speaker 2 (00:12:41):

Well, I think there's something else about what you said about things sometimes not working out. Sometimes men, it's nothing that anybody did wrong. You've got two sets of pretty good people on both sides, but sometimes there are just conflicting interests, and at the end of the day, those conflicting interests just can't be reconciled. And it's not because one person is evil and the other person is good, or one person's a scumbag and the other person is like this pillar of righteousness. Sometimes it just is an issue of conflicting interests that are incompatible.

Speaker 3 (00:13:18):

Yeah, I mean, what I found a lot of it on my way up and I'm still climbing. I'm still crawl, scratching and clawing to get to the best place that I'm hoping that I can be. I find that oftentimes when we're fighting over a slice of pizza, things go wrong. We end up at odds because we see it as, oh my God, there's one slice left, or There's only one slice available, and fuck bro, we're both hungry. You want a slice? I want a slice. We're scrapping over it. Inevitably what you find is usually each of us can have our own pizza, and that starts with, instead of fighting over that piece of pizza, trying to figure out how whoever needs the pizza the most, whether it's split evenly on that given day or that given month or that given year, or whether or not somebody needs it more that day, knowing that you can help each other get to the point where you've each got your own pizzas.

(00:14:15):

I think that's sort of the beauty, and that would be something I've realized. It's relatively vague metaphor. I've got so many great friends now in this business who we fought over the dumbest shit. It's not because we weren't going at it with the best intentions, it's that we sadly couldn't envision a world where we each had more a world of abundance and abundance can exist and it can exist in this business. I think URM is a fucking amazing example of abundance that came about because without knowing the full story, people weren't fighting over a piece of pizza any longer. You guys have created not only a pizza, you've created an entire restaurant that is giving jobs to the servers, to the waiters, to the hostess, to the bartenders, to the suppliers that bring in the food. It's such a thriving thing that frankly, I mean, you tell me 15, 20 years ago, you're fighting over pizzas of pizza. Thank

Speaker 2 (00:15:07):

You for saying that. I actually think that when we started, there were people who felt like our existence was taking their pizza, which I don't think it ever was, and to this day I don't think it is, but there were people who felt that way. So that was part of something that we've had to break out of which I think by now we pretty much successfully have. I don't think people really see it that way anymore. Too much.

Speaker 3 (00:15:31):

Well, change is such a threatening thing in any place. I mean, look at Spotify, some of our biggest and best friends of, and whether it's Spotify, I don't even like to call it look at streaming. It's just you guys, frankly, you're visionaries, or at least that's the way I view it from the outside. You took this thing and said, wow, I mean, let's use this vision to show everyone that yes, there can be more. And so in that place where especially the haves, I'm not to say that you guys were the have nots because especially knowing you and of course Joey, you guys, you surely weren't the have-nots.

Speaker 2 (00:16:07):

He's a lot more of a have than I was when it comes to production.

Speaker 3 (00:16:10):

Yeah, I guess ultimately it doesn't surprise me that there were detractors from what you were doing because what you were doing was different and disruption is a scary thing. We've lived in a time where disruption is the norm. I don't remember exactly when you guys started, but if it was anything more than three years ago, disruption was still a relatively new thing.

Speaker 2 (00:16:33):

2015.

Speaker 3 (00:16:34):

Yep. So we're right about that time. Yeah, I mean, it makes sense that people were fearful of, frankly, you taking pizza out of their oven or whatever the metaphor needs to be.

Speaker 2 (00:16:45):

Here's a precursor to all of it, which was Creative Live when I was doing all the creative live episodes with Finn, and then I would help him recruit people. I got him in touch with Joey, introduced him to lots of people who then went on Creative live and out of me and him doing the creative live thing. I got the idea, why should I be doing this for a company? Why not start my own? But yeah, so kind of since 2013, but I think this all ties back to the relationship thing because in doing this thing, which I view as super positive, we did have to lose a few relationships along the way. And that's okay. Back to what I said originally is you should try to maintain them all, but you can't always. And back to what you said too, you can't control how other people are going to interpret what you do, so you can have the best of intent. And I feel like we do have the best of intent, but we can't control how everybody's going to see that. And if we were to stop ourselves based on somebody not liking us, or the possibility that maybe our friendship is going to be damaged by doing this thing, would we ever progress? Probably not.

Speaker 3 (00:17:52):

Time is an incredible thing, and you may have some detractors now, some haters now some bridges that are seemingly burned now, but the beauty is there's been gorges that have had bridges come tumbling down only to have them rebuilt. And just because somebody doesn't see it now or because of the way that a relationship's been handled now doesn't mean that those people might not come back around, which I know mean what's been so incredible to me is to watch some of the relationships in my life. I'll give a perfect example. We came as Romans, the singer, Kyle Pavone just passed away recently, and that was one of my very first, I mean, that was my client that I had arguably the most success with from when their young manager at the time brought them into me and I brought him into my company and we grew the band, and frankly, we did it the right way.

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And sadly, when they left the company, I was devastated and I was also very defensive and it wasn't good. It wasn't good for anyone and certain members of the band I continued to have a relationship with and others, it just didn't work. You take a tragic event like this and you put me in a place where I'm more mature. I can't comment on whether or not they're more mature, but they're surely older. And it's just one of those where you realize life's too short to fucking carry a grudge, have resentment, any of that stuff. And as much as I feel like I know so much about relationships I'm ever and always learning more and more about them each and every day, I mean, look, even you and I, we're not on the same page every single day, right? I'll say something in jest, you'll interpret it is whatever. You'll throw something back at me, I'll be like, Jesus Christ, why is I also sensitive? But we can talk it out. You can say, Hey, this is why I want you to not say X, Y, and Z. And I can say,

Speaker 2 (00:19:54):

I still bought your summit plane flight before anybody else FYI.

Speaker 3 (00:19:59):

Great. I do appreciate that.

Speaker 2 (00:20:03):

I mean, just when it comes down to it, no matter what happens, I think the end result is where people stand based on their actions

Speaker 3 (00:20:12):

Towards

Speaker 2 (00:20:13):

Each other, even if we squabble sometimes via text or something where really the real measure is the action that's actually taken. Finn, and I do this too, man, we're such good friends that there are times, man, when we are murderously angry at each other, he will say things sometimes that I literally want to fucking kill him, but five minutes later, we're looking at golden retriever videos.

Speaker 3 (00:20:38):

I was going to say, hold on. Finn must have that relationship with everybody. No, I'm kidding. Well, I mean,

Speaker 2 (00:20:44):

He feels that way about me too. I guarantee,

Speaker 3 (00:20:46):

I mean, I think it's interesting to me if I think about my relationships as a kid on a playground, I moved around every two years. My dad was in the military, and my parents would send you out and say, go make friends. And inevitably the history of my relationships is I'd show up to the playground or wherever it is, the soccer field or on a skateboard and kind of pick a fight with the fucking other cool kid. I envisioned myself as being cool. Probably wasn't. Hopefully none of my high school or junior high friends are,

Speaker 2 (00:21:15):

Ah, dude, you're really cool.

Speaker 3 (00:21:16):

Thank you. That was what I was fishing for. Don't worry. The tip jar gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen listening at home, there's a tip jar somewhere on here. Give al a tip please. But to me, it's one of those where in my business career as well, I kind of spar, and I think that's probably what happens with you and Finn. I know it's what happens with me and Finn and with me and you is inevitably we'll have a debate. It might not be framed in the most productive manner. It might be sometimes I think I've framed things in ways that aren't as constructive. It's almost like a jab or a joust as opposed to maybe a better way to present things. But inevitably, we continue to get along and work with one another because there's a mutual respect. I know you know your shit. So if I'm going to pick your shit apart in a way that I'm seeing it differently, it's not coming from a, wow, these guys are fucking idiots. It's coming from a man. I think what you're doing is so fucking cool. Let me show you how I can actually think it's even cooler, and that's just from the seed I'm in. You're sitting there. Whether you take that advice or not, doesn't matter. You're probably getting it from 60 other people because every one of us that's had any modicum of success in this goddamn business thinks we know everything.

Speaker 2 (00:22:36):

Isn't that the truth? Tip

Speaker 3 (00:22:37):

Jar is still open, ladies and gentlemen.

Speaker 2 (00:22:39):

Yes. Well, I mean, look, when you put an idea out there that someone should do something differently than they're doing it, they don't have to agree. But that doesn't mean you have to not be friends.

Speaker 3 (00:22:51):

Totally. No, completely. And I think being able to define the line between those two, I mean, one thing that I hate is the idea, especially in this business, that sometimes it's just business. Because to me, I've never approached it that way. I've approached it from a, in fact, the business part of it is almost the, it's almost like the necessary evil

Speaker 2 (00:23:17):

Man. You want to know something. When people say that to me, it infuriates me. It's not just business. I find people, at least in this line of work, I understand maybe in an accounting firm, something's just business, but in this line of work, I find that when people say it's just business, what they really are saying, I was just a total fucking asshole, but you better take it.

Speaker 3 (00:23:43):

Well, and it's not always that way, way. I mean, there are times when things are just business. There's not times when it's just business. There's times where the business decision must outweigh the personal relationship. I've been on the receiving side of that, and in the moment, it fucking hurt me because to me, I put the personal part of it in front of the business side. In fact, that's why I think not to toot my own horn, there's few of us that have consistently been able to do what I do, which is take artists from a place of pretty much anonymity to relatively, I don't even know if mainstream's the right word, but to a place of success. And that comes because I care more than the numbers show. That said, that's sometimes my mistake. I don't go into it saying, all right, I'm going to invest my heart and soul into you, and therefore you need to reciprocate.

(00:24:43):

I go in with that intention because that's who I am. Now I'm understanding that not everybody is that way. Jokes on me. I thought that people would either see that and value it, but inevitably that's not what everyone does. Everyone has to make their own decisions in the end, and sometimes people do, they value whatever the dollars are more than whatever the personal relationship is. And I don't necessarily fault them for that, but I do hate the idea that people can use it in a way that I think you described, which is, okay, I'm going to use this term business for not just to act like a dickhead, but potentially to do something that maybe should be given more consideration based on the personal relationship or the history of that relationship.

Speaker 2 (00:25:31):

Absolutely. I mean, this might just be a why I have a negative connotation with it, but I just remember back a long time ago, in one of my first bands ever, I was trying to instill the idea of trying to act more professional, like taking our shit seriously. I mean as seriously as high schoolers could. But I was at least trying, I was starting to read business books and watching the professional musicians via my dad, and I was trying to instill this, and the person who I had started the band with, I think he resented it a lot. So he would say horrible things and then just be like, I'm just being professional, bro. So that's where I got the idea that you're not being professional, you're being a dick. There's a big difference here. And so I've started to spot it when people do that. Yeah, what can you do?

Speaker 3 (00:26:24):

Exactly, what can you do?

Speaker 2 (00:26:27):

I mean, yeah, you should just approach it with the best of intent. And I, there are times for sure where the business decision does have to outweigh the personal, and it sucks.

Speaker 3 (00:26:39):

I mean, look, there's plenty of times where, yeah, I mean there's collateral damage or someone who is a great person and has had a great long-term relationship can be a liability on the business front. I think in that case, it's so much about how you handle it and how things go down from there. Typically what happens is people want to use that to take advantage of something. And again, going back to the piece of pizza, it's like, no, this is my piece of pizza. I'm taking it and I'm out the door. Business is just business. I need to eat. And again, all of this is just from experience, difficult relationships. I've handled gracefully at times and handled the opposite of that at other times. And so much of what I would try to say to your audience is try to respond in things or take ProAct action instead of reacting.

(00:27:35):

Inevitably, if someone comes up to you and says, X, pause, understand maybe why they're saying that. How many times have we all gotten out of a car? We've been stuck in traffic. The first thing we do is run up to someone and be like, goddammit, why are you? And it's just like, take a deep breath, bro. Life's going to be okay. Person that you're talking to, they have nothing to do with the traffic that's out there, or the person that was the barista who was slow at the Starbucks. All the things that inevitably make us irritable because we're busy, we're moving, we're quick, dah, dah, dah, dah. And really that comes back to that bit of control. What is it that you can control in any given situation or relationship?

Speaker 2 (00:28:16):

Yeah, I mean, the other thing about being proactive in these types of situations is one thing that I've found out is that usually when there's bad news about to be delivered to me or whatever, if I'm being honest, I saw it coming weeks or months before it happened, and if I was more proactive, not to say that I could have prevented it, but could have had a slightly more positive outcome

(00:28:45):

Out of it. A very, very rarely ever been blindsided. And so to not be blindsided and then to have a negative reaction, that's so stupid. So stupid, right? It's so stupid. If it's something you saw coming, then why are you acting this way? I mean, obviously sometimes our emotions get the better of us, but when we have this feeling that something's up, that something needs fixing, that something needs attending to a, you should ask yourself if you're being paranoid, but if you conclude that you're not being paranoid and then it's real, you should address it long before it becomes something that will potentially blindside you.

Speaker 3 (00:29:25):

My goodness. So if everyone out there just listens to our advice, basically they'll have the perfect lives.

Speaker 2 (00:29:31):

Yes, like ours.

Speaker 3 (00:29:32):

I was going to say, should we just start by listening and doing the things that we're saying to one another?

Speaker 2 (00:29:37):

I try, but man, we're human too.

Speaker 3 (00:29:39):

Absolutely. No, I mean, all kidding aside, what you're saying is I think it all makes sense, and in fact, so much of the wisdom that I'm spouting if it is indeed wise, is these are the types of things that I have to remind myself of each and every day.

Speaker 2 (00:29:52):

Well, the shit's not easy. I mean, we say it like it's easy. It's not easy. Part of why I think it's important to talk about and to have this conversation is because these are simple concepts, but they're not easy concepts at all. In reality, when it comes down to it, when your emotions get triggered and your livelihood is potentially on the line and relationships you've had for years or hanging in the balance, other shit's stressing you out, it's a lot harder to actually do what we're talking about with a level head. It's not as easy as it sounds. So that said, let's talk about the summit some because you're coming obviously to talk at the summit and hang out

Speaker 3 (00:30:34):

Second year in a row, my man.

Speaker 2 (00:30:35):

Yes, hopefully second of many. The thing that you were going to talk about, you were going to open it actually and talk about how to make the most of that experience and how to actually build relationships at an event like that, which let's face it, most people going are total introverts. They're not necessarily the dudes in the band who want the attention. They're the guys who stay in the dark room and sit behind the computer and make the music. There's a reason for why they're okay to sit in a room 12 hours a day, and it's usually because they're avoiding being social, but an event like this is going to force them to do it, and if they go about it the right way, as we've seen from last year, they can make some very, very major moves in their own career trajectory. We've had people who between last year and now are like they moved to LA, are making a full-time living or have become interns or assistants for some of our nail the mixers or have partnered up with other people from the summit and started studios that are doing pretty well, all kinds of success stories from the people that actually went into it and really took well by the horns in terms of building the relationships.

Speaker 3 (00:31:53):

Yeah, I mean, look, I think first and foremost, not that I think you need an advertisement for the summit, but if somebody is on here checking this out and is hesitant, having gone down and witnessed it firsthand last year, I was just so incredibly impressed not only by just how it was run and the content, but the people, the clientele that were there. I think it was as you stated, it's like, look, these are the people who are absolutely serious about their career, and the way we know that is because it's not the cheapest thing in the world. It's not the most expensive thing in the world, but it's priced at a point where you need to be serious about taking your career to the next level in order to participate. So if you're out there and you're on the fence, I can say just even for me meeting so many of the participants in the limited amount of time I was there and watching, not even my interaction with 'em, but just watching how they interact with one another and that's it.

(00:32:53):

I mean, that's the business part of it to a T. If I go back 30 years and think about the time that Carl, who runs a label called Good Fight, who ran a label called Ferret, he and I were trading tapes 30 years ago as little hardcore kids. I mean, you guys have that community where you've got people who are 18, 19, 20 years old, and when they're in their mid forties, they'll be talking about not trading tapes, but they'll be talking about how they traded insight on how to approach a mix or how to get a client or how to determine whether or not Brian Hood's six figure Studio thing is full of it or great advice. And I'm not saying it's either, I'm saying that's jokingly. I'm talking one of the things that was really cool, I thought that was a great part of it, and I thought you guys had a lot of diversity, but ultimately, yeah, I mean we're talking about me kicking off the summit with how to make the most of it, and not everybody who's willing to sit in a room for 12 hours means that they're an introvert. Otherwise, Joel,

Speaker 2 (00:33:56):

No, true. But he used to be actually, apparently I didn't know him then.

Speaker 3 (00:34:00):

Yeah, exactly. I didn't know him then either. I guess Russia has that effect on people. I'm not sure he's been brainwashed by Putin to come over here and we're not getting political people. No, I mean there were many. I firsthand witnessed some people who were shy, they were more introverted. I also met plenty of people who were extroverted, and what I will say is if you think of not only the summit, but your career as a marathon, not a sprint, sometimes being the extrovert, which is my natural tendency, and being the loudest person in the room and being the person that can walk around and talk to 50 people, that is helpful at times. It's also not always helpful, right? There is value to being much more calculated in who you're going to talk to, how you're going to talk to them, when you're going to approach them, what subjects you're going to cover, how you're going to follow up with them.

(00:34:57):

And I think you've got to, there's a place for everyone at the summit, no matter what type of person you are provided you go into it thinking how to maximize your experience based on your personality. That said, you guys do a great job. You have a setup that encourages people to get out of their comfort zone. You guys understand it because you've lived through it. What you're doing now is saying, don't make the same mistakes we made. Allow yourselves to learn from the experiences that we've had to actually maximize. So that's a lot that I've just laid out there, but that's really kind of the gist of it.

Speaker 2 (00:35:36):

When you go to NAM or something, some event like that,

Speaker 3 (00:35:39):

Yes,

Speaker 2 (00:35:40):

You get those people that are overly calculated. It's almost like they have a script down for how they're going to talk to you and they have the perfect cheese ass business card. It's not very appealing to talk to those people. They're almost punishers. So I agree with everything you said, but I also think that there's a point where people go too far and it has the opposite effect. It's almost repulsive, and I don't want people to do that either. Do you have any thoughts on how to avoid being that convention punisher type?

Speaker 3 (00:36:17):

Yeah, I mean, I will say so much of it can be seen like demoing, right? I mean, practice makes perfect and practicing conversations with heroes with, oh my God, look, I see Joey Sturgis as a peer. He mixed some of my records and recorded some of the records that my artist did that have had a ton of success. That said, I'm still a huge fan of his right. I thankfully have stumbled through the awkward ways of meeting my heroes, but if I was a young attendee, I could see how meeting a Joey or meeting any of the people you bring Matt Halpert down. I mean, what a beast. Matt's a guy I used to manage. He's a fricking amazing person. He's so talented in so many different ways. There is room to be excited. Don't allow us to take away from your excitement because of our jadedness.

(00:37:12):

Even though I work very hard to not be jaded, I try to flip it and be grateful for everything that I'm able to do. That said, practice. What are you going to say to somebody? What is the type of thing that you want to say, but don't get married to it, right? Because the thing you could say, okay, Joey Sturgis is talking at three o'clock on the Thursday. I'm going to go up to him, and then lo and behold, Joey disappears because he gets pulled into something else. Or Joey gets food poisoning and he can't talk and they've got Brian Hood in there, or just insert somebody else. Don't get too married to your practice. This isn't a play. This is real life and real life takes twists and turns sometimes by the second, and a lot of it is about your preparedness and just is really about your comfort and your confidence, and those things will build, and it's okay.

(00:38:08):

Honestly, if you fuck up, if you say something that sure, he all thinks you're a punisher, he's going to watch you throughout the weekend or throughout the next year and understand that, look, the reason we can identify it so easily as we were all there once too, I wasn't as nearly as big a nerd as these guys to fricking want to turn knobs for a living. I'm much more cool than that. I'm out surfing and shit, bro, but inevitably, look, we've all put our foot gaping in our mouth, and in some ways it's endearing, especially in a setting like that. You got to remember, it's a pretty safe setting. You've created this environment for people to stumble and within the confines, it's sort of like whenever you're singing, when you're dancing, nobody's watching. This is the place for that People are watching, but they're your friends.

Speaker 2 (00:38:59):

To be honest, man, it takes a lot to punish me at the summit. It barely happened last year and it took, I can think of one person and it was almost like they were really going for the Punisher Olympic Gold medal or something. It takes a lot. I think that, like you said, it is, without being cheesy and saying safe space or whatever, those of us on the other side of the fence, those of us who are putting on the summit or speaking at it, we are kind of expecting the attendees to be excited or nervous or whatever, and that's okay. As opposed to something like Nam where we actually have business interests at Nam, we have our own careers to worry about. Usually we're not putting Nam on. We're going to Nam usually with an agenda of some sort this coming year. URMs got a booth, it's going to be all business for me.

(00:39:57):

I mean, hopefully I'll get to hang out with some friends, but that said, I'm going to have a lot less time for every individual person. I'm going to give everyone as much time as I can, but because of the nature of the event, because there is more stuff that I have to do in a short period of time, the math just works out. There's less time per person. Whereas the summit is an event for that is designed exactly for the attendees to be able to talk to each other and us, and so I'm going to give him as much time as I possibly can, and so does every other speaker that's there. So I think it's a very, very different setup. I think that that needs to be noted because if you want to meet Blasco and Nam, good luck getting more than 30 seconds of his time. For instance, even if you've known him for 10 years,

Speaker 3 (00:40:46):

Is Glasgow coming to URM?

Speaker 2 (00:40:48):

Supposedly?

Speaker 3 (00:40:48):

Look at that. Supposedly won't let you buy a ticket. Huh? Won't give you that social security number. That birthday baby.

Speaker 2 (00:40:54):

Oh, wait, I'm still waiting on that part.

Speaker 3 (00:40:56):

If only you knew a guy who knew a guy.

Speaker 2 (00:40:58):

Yeah, I know. I'm still waiting on that info. But I mean, the reason I say him, for instance is because, so I've known him since 2007, and I guess when my band went on Oz Fest, that's when I met him and we didn't become friends, but we became friendly. He was always cool to me, but he always had something going on, which to this day, he always got something going on. Somewhere around 2012, I asked him to manage my producer career because a bunch of people owed me money and I just needed help, and he did. And so we talked a lot. We got a lot closer over that year. And then still when I'd go to Nam, I still wouldn't get more than five minutes with him, and I don't expect more. It's not like I expected him to hang out with me all night or anything like that, but I'm just saying that even somebody who I had a working relationship with, who we were cool, paying him some money, not as much as some of his other things, but for all intents and purposes, we were cool. Even in that situation, I couldn't get more than five minutes, and not because he was cold shouldering me and nothing like that. The dude is fucking busy. He's got lots of people way more important than me to talk to. And that's just how it is at something like Nam. Whereas at the summit, there's going to be a lot less people taking up his time.

Speaker 3 (00:42:19):

No, absolutely. And I think every situation's different. All of the things that people go to, I mean, whether it's Nam, whether it's URM, whether it's South by whether I always go to a thing called Launch, there's a whole bunch of different ones that are out there, and I agree. I mean, it is good to go in understanding that people are busy, they've got their own lives, they are being pulled in a hundred different directions, and it can be hard because until you've been in that position, it's almost like you can't imagine it. I remember a time when, this is a little bit of a different example, but I remember a time when a booking agent called me unquote after hours, and this was probably 12, maybe more years ago, and I've only been managing bands 15 years, but it happened once. They called me at nine at night and we had to make some decision on something, and I was like, man, that's kind of crazy.

(00:43:13):

I mean, now I get phone calls at nine at night every day of my life, and it's just like I get phone calls all the time. It's just my career's in a different place. Part of it is our culture is a busier culture as a whole, but it's that, yeah, I mean, as you do more in the biz and as you have more responsibilities, your time, your free time, your time to make small talk with people, even if that's the purpose for your trip, IE Nam or URM, it is going to be limited. And so I guess don't take offense to that, right? Oh, Blasco is a dick or Mallory's a dick or Al's a dick or Sturgis is a dick. It's view it as, man, maybe they've got a lot going on. You don't even know. I mean, sometimes we're at these events and fricking we get a call on our personal life.

(00:44:01):

Maybe I just got the phone call that I need to replace the roof two minutes before I walked onto the stage to give my presentation, and afterwards I'm sitting there thinking about the roof. So I think just be cognizant that we are humans just like the rest of you. The empowering thing about that is the rest of the people that are coming can become us, and they can even become better versions of us because they get to listen to guys like us who have fumbled and been through these experiences. They get to listen to us and hopefully take a bit away from it.

Speaker 2 (00:44:35):

I actually think that what's more important than talking to us is them talking to each other.

Speaker 3 (00:44:40):

Yes.

Speaker 2 (00:44:41):

To be perfectly honest, I think that the relationships that they form with fellow attendees will most likely be what yields the most fruit for them over time.

Speaker 3 (00:44:53):

Yes. No, I mean, that's actually one of the best points I've ever heard you make, Al, and you make great points all the

Speaker 2 (00:44:59):

Time. Finally, I made one

Speaker 3 (00:45:01):

Scorekeeper, please win for al 15. Love. We're proper gentlemen. We'll keep score like a tennis match.

Speaker 2 (00:45:10):

Thank you.

Speaker 3 (00:45:11):

No, I mean, I agree. What's interesting is I know you mentioned people moving to LA and doing things like that. One thing, especially as you're coming up, and I think this is something that you guys do and you facilitate and you foster in a really cool way. It used to be, let's take the role of booking agents' assistants. So most of you probably know what a booking agent does, and there's many independent ones, but there's also a lot that work for the bigger firms. CA William Morris, United Talent,

(00:45:43):

You go on, they all have assistants, right? And those assistants play a very vital role of issuing contracts, making sure that communications done blah, blah, blah, and you go on and on and wrong. And so what's interesting is if you're an assistant that's not in the hub of, you're not in a hub, you're not in New York, you're not in la, you're not in Nashville, there's a whole culture of assistance connecting within companies outside of companies, you name it, because they're all going to be, if they choose to stay in the industry, the next tier of actual agents. And so just like you said, URM in the summit, this is sort of the same thing. If you live in Noblesville, Indiana and your buddy lives in Spokane, Washington, you're not in the hub in the heart of it, but the relationship that you develop, not only in person at the summit, but also as you guys go through all the courses and whatever it is that you're offering online, those are the things as you guys become the new Cs.

(00:46:43):

But inevitably, I think that's the point is there's a lot of relationships to establish to foster. And as URM goes on, and I'm sure there'll be spinoffs, I I'm sure there's the next version of URM or some sister company isn't even going to be started by Joey Sturgis because at some point, Joey Sturgis will have started enough companies that the US office of company starting people will not let him start anymore one day. Exactly. No, but I mean somebody amongst your listenership and your subscribership and your whatever fellowship will have a brilliant idea and they may bring it to you or they may just start it on the side.

Speaker 2 (00:47:26):

You can bring it to us. That's cool.

Speaker 3 (00:47:28):

Yeah, exactly. As a matter of fact, are we having a shark tank? Are we having an impromptu shark tank? I think I would love to be a part of that.

Speaker 2 (00:47:35):

Alright, here's another issue they're going to have. This one's tough, I think because hard to know. It's hard to know what a good rhythm for this is or when you're being a creep and when you're not. So say that people come to this and they do have a great time, which they will and they make friends, which they will, but then comes the actual work of following up and keeping it going. And also, especially if they exchange info or whatever with some of the instructors or something, the instructor says, Billy Decker says, yeah, call me in a few weeks. Maybe I'll throw you some editing work or something, whatever. Just for example, you

Speaker 3 (00:48:21):

Should be calling Billy Decker just to hear his voice in my mind.

Speaker 2 (00:48:24):

I agree, I do. But do you have a strategy or a

Speaker 3 (00:48:28):

No. I mean, I don't have a hard fast rule. I think what you have to understand is after a summit like that, these guys who, I mean, especially the people who organize it, and I don't know exactly who role is what, but you guys have a pretty cool, big family. You need time. I think last year after you dropped me off at the airport, you went back, did a whole bunch more work for the summit, then you went on a little vacation at a minimum, give the people some time a week. That said, there could be some of us who, I don't have a major role there. I come in, I'm having a good time, you could follow up with me sooner. I think this one starts on a Tuesday or Wednesday ends on a Thursday or Friday. No, I don't really need you hitting me up on the weekend.

Speaker 2 (00:49:17):

Actually, it starts on a Thursday and ends on a Monday.

Speaker 3 (00:49:20):

Even better. Just turns out that even though you did book my flight, I wasn't paying attention and that's why I had you book it. But I think part of it, you can do yourself the favor of asking the person, Hey man, it was really awesome to talk to you. I would love to follow up. Is that okay? They say yes. Is there a preferred time? They say a week. They might not even mean a week. They may have never had anybody ever ask 'em that question. And the week is the first thing that comes out of their mouth

Speaker 2 (00:49:56):

And they probably won't even remember they said it

Speaker 3 (00:49:59):

Exactly, or they may actually mean a week and then a week later something else has completely dropped in their lap. That's okay. And then lastly, this, is there a preferred method? And if somebody says Facebook messenger, I'll be in shock, but that's because I'm a 44-year-old man. I don't really want to use Facebook messenger for business. That said, I work with plenty of people who use any of the messengers as a method of communication and I respect however the hell people want to be communicated with. So those are some simple things that you can do. It might be really hard if you catch al coming out of the coffee line all of a sudden, Hey man, how are you? Okay, when do I follow up? What do I do? Allow it to come naturally, and if you don't catch those things at some point, that's totally fine.

(00:50:50):

Okay, so let's just say it is a week. You hit up Al after a week. Al doesn't respond, don't take it personally. Al could have missed it. He could have had a disaster in his life. He could have had some fantastic news that he hasn't posted on social media happened in his life. Any number of things could happen. I would say give it another week. Hit him up again. All of this is done politely, respectfully. Hey man, just want to follow up here. I realize you're probably a busy guy. No big deal to me. Usually the third time is the charm. That's where you kind of want to put it out there as, Hey, man, this is my third time contacting you. Maybe not even that. You don't want to go at it with a defensive like, well, why the hell haven't you responded to me?

(00:51:38):

What you want to do is just continue to use the same respectful tone, and you may say, this being my third time, contacting you out of professional courtesy, I won't reach out to you for another or I'm not going to reach out to you again. You've got my info, whatever it may be. I don't necessarily have these hard, fast guidelines. I just know that there's times in my life where I'll get an email, I'll even have the best intention to respond to it. Next thing you know, life happens fast. I don't get that chance. I'll get that second email, same thing, best intentions, dah, dah, dah. By about the third email. If I haven't written back to you, the chances are I'm not going to. And it has nothing to do with your personality, has nothing to do with your business opportunity. Typically, it has to do with me and my life and my ability to understand that I might not be able to fit even a response into you.

(00:52:29):

You can look at that and say, wow, Mallory's an asshole. Or you can look at it to say, man, the guy's actually got a pretty good grasp on what his priorities need to be in order for him to sustain himself in this fucking crazy world called the music business. So I'm respectful of people and their ability, and I've watched it where I've had an email sit in somebody inbox for six months and then I get like, Hey man, I'm finally getting around to respond to this letang. Let's grab coffee. Let's hop on the phone. Because something in their life has made way where they now have the time to actually engage with me, and I respect that.

Speaker 2 (00:53:10):

Absolutely. Let me give two examples of this and why you should follow up and not get discouraged and not take it personally. Number one that comes right to mind is Jens Boren coming on Nail the Mix. I first had him on the URM podcast two years ago or two and a half years ago. It was one of our first guests, and I had invited him on Nail the Mix pretty quickly thereafter, to which he said, yes, actually, but schedule didn't work out. And so then we spent eight months kind of going back and forth an email per month kind of talking about it, and he was entirely positive the whole time. Then I didn't hear from him for a year. I never sent him a, what the fuck, bro? We were talking about this and then you bailed on me, man, nothing like that. It's just I figured he got busy or something like some record he was doing became all encompassing, like the DMU record or some shit.

(00:54:14):

And then I heard back from him, lo and behold, a year later, and he was like, all right, I'm ready to schedule this. We start scheduling it and then I don't hear from him for 10 more months, and so I was like, alright, well I'm going to play it the same way. There's probably some record that took up all his attention. And then finally he gets to me with a three paragraph long email with a list of 10 different options we could do for nail the mix, ready to go, and we planned the whole thing out within two weeks. Boom, we do opec, nail the mix, one of the best ones we've ever had. We went to Sweden for it and everything. Another, if I had taken it personally or just not responded after a while, that wouldn't have happened. Another thing is someone trying to get in touch with me Recently, I just got invited by Facebook to go talk at some Facebook event about running a Facebook community, how to run one successfully. Apparently we're doing a good job or something, and they noticed, and it was weird, man, not something I was expecting, but the first time they hit me up, I didn't even notice. I thought I was getting spammed or whatever. I get so many messages that I kind of just saw it when you don't click on it and you just see the first two sentences or something.

Speaker 3 (00:55:36):

Totally.

Speaker 2 (00:55:37):

And just flew right over my head, and then a week and a half later they hit me up again very politely, just following up. We'd love for you to come talk at this thing if they hadn't followed up. Man, what a bummer. I'm very excited about going to talk about this

Speaker 3 (00:55:54):

As you should be. Where are you headed?

Speaker 2 (00:55:56):

It's here in Atlanta, but it's an official event. That's all I know. It's an event that they're having. They want me to come talk to people who work for Facebook about running a community, so I'm going to go do it, but I could have easily missed it, man, just because of the volume of messages I get. If they had not followed up politely and professionally or whatever, that would've really kind of sucked. I really would've been bummed about it. So by following up, you are also doing a good service for the person on the other end that if you have something valuable for them, that is you're doing something good for them. They can't always keep up with every single thing that comes in. Sometimes it's just too much. So there's a lot of power and proper follow up

Speaker 3 (00:56:47):

And I mean, look, I've watched people cut through. I mean, I'll tell people call me or I'll tell people to text message me. I mean, those two things do cut through better than Facebook. That said, I mean, again, I think you and I are from a generation where I laugh. I was going to say we are from a generation where a call and a text is, you almost need to be on a little bit of a different level, I think because we grew up in a time where we didn't have cell phones and then you have cell phones. It's like private thing that's now turned into our business thing because our email's attached to it. Our social media is attached to it, you name it. But I still to this day have a hesitancy with people that I don't have an established business relationship with or personal relationship with texting them.

(00:57:34):

That said, I now know that so many people, yeah, I mean, I get random texts from people and it cuts through. I don't always answer because now it's becoming a little bit different. I guess what I'm saying is things have sort of changed where I think you got to reach people where you can get them, and there's of course the interesting stories of people doing certain things to catch people's attention, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But it's like, dude, sending an email is sort of like the easiest, almost, not even lamest. It's just even though we're saying follow up ones follow up twice, it's still not really showing some grave effort. I mean, I give an aside. So we have the podcast Network, Jabber Jaw Media, and there's a podcast called Pure Pleasure, which is awesome. It's run by a great dude named Dewey Halas and Dewey.

(00:58:25):

In his early stages, he wanted to interview Ian Mackay from Discord Records, minor threat, Fugazi, and so he called Discord Discord Discords numbers published, asked to speak to Ian. Ian took the call. He said, Hey, there's my podcast. Maybe he called or maybe emailed. I don't really know. All I know is Ian said, hit me back in a month. Did it hit me? That response got to hit me back in two months. Whatever the timing is, it doesn't matter. But essentially, Ian had his own way of vetting people to see who was actually serious because that is something that you do. You learn these tricks. We all have our own tricks. We all have our different tricks of how to respond, and that's why there's not one easy answer for us to give you out there if you're listening.

Speaker 2 (00:59:12):

I've got one yesterday you tagged me on Instagram on a podcast that Matt Squire was on,

(00:59:20):

And I was like, you know what? I should invite Matt Squire on the podcast. Thanks Mike Mowery. But I was walking my dog and I knew that if I didn't do it right then and there, I'd forget, and I didn't know how to get in touch with him, so I sent him an Instagram message. I actually just reminded myself to check it. I never contact people like that, but point being that I don't feel like it was an unprofessional way to do it. It's just what I had available to me at that time. I didn't have time right then to look up his proper contact info or anything. Either he is going to respond or he is not going to respond, and that'll be that. But I don't think that he's going to be like, whoa, bro, follow the exact chain of command here or anything like that. You do what works and hopefully you've got something that the person on the other end is interested in. Yeah,

Speaker 3 (01:00:16):

I mean, we could go toe to toe and have 10 million examples of things. I think our overall takeaway is do you have a plan of how to follow up my sentiment of if you do have the opportunity to meet someone in person, there's nothing wrong with asking them questions like this. Hey, Mallory, I really liked what you had to say on the podcast and then followed up with this great thing at URM. I'd love to reach out to you to get some advice. What's the best time and way to do that? And understand that I may say best time to do it is in two weeks. Best way to do it is via text, and lo and behold, I still don't actually respond or have the time to respond,

Speaker 2 (01:00:59):

Want to know what doesn't work, at least with me, and I don't think that this works with a lot of people. I want to say this because I feel like when you read books about networking or business books, a method of I guess persuasion or whatever that's put out there a lot is do something for somebody so that they have the natural inclination to close the loop by giving back. So ask to buy someone lunch or something, but honestly man, if a total stranger is like, let me buy you lunch, it's very rare that I'm going to be like, all right, let's do it. That's a big ask, not, I don't want a free lunch or anything, but it's a big ask. That's a lot of time I got to go somewhere.

Speaker 3 (01:01:42):

I thought it was only because you go to expensive places,

Speaker 2 (01:01:44):

That too, but it's just a big ask man, driving through Atlanta traffic or sometimes I'll get this when I'm out of town on a nail, the mix engagement and we have our schedule almost always totally filled up, even though I'd like to hang out with this person. The reality of me breaking away, going somewhere, sitting down, ordering, going through that whole thing, then going back, it's just a huge ask for a first meeting. It really is. And what it tells me is that they're not doing the most important thing, which is putting themselves in the other person's shoes and realizing that you're talking to a human being who has shit going on that you need to be mindful of. They're treating you more as a conquest or some box to check off. They're just not thinking it through enough. And I know there's some people who will be like, sure, buy me lunch, but I know more people who just won't respond to that. It's a big fucking ask to just go to lunch with a total stranger. Not saying it never happens', saying that's a big ask.

Speaker 3 (01:02:58):

No, I completely agree with that. I mean, I've been in that situation and it makes me think of the last, when you were doing Taylor Larson's, URM, you and I couldn't even hang out because I had a lot going on and you had a lot going on, and the respective free times that we had didn't overlap. So here we are, two friends, two business colleagues, just to paint the example of how busy you might be or how busy I might be. And for all of you listening, I just want to be clear on two things. One is being busy in and of itself does not necessarily mean you're being productive. I'll just put that out there. There's plenty of people that can cover that. The other thing is, and I fall victim to this every once in a while, I think no matter what you do, you need to have some sort of gauge as to how is your time being spent and how are you measuring what the effectiveness is for your time?

(01:03:52):

And so different people have different ways of measuring money is not the only way to measure. In fact, one of the great things that Blasco said, and one of our episodes of managemental was he measures certain progress or whatever it is by musical output, like quality, musical output. He's not putting stuff out just to fucking put it out. And so yeah, if you're, I'm in LA right now, I could do five meetings a day, five days a week, and probably do that for the 52 weeks that are in a year. Of course, understanding that there's plenty of people who won't work over certain holidays, myself included, but I could do so much of that, and it's not a bragging point. It's that there are a lot of people doing a lot of great things in this business, and because I've got experience, I now have relationships with many of them.

(01:04:52):

I'm getting text messages even throughout this podcast of like, Hey, you're in town this week. Here's a guy I want you to introduce you to. I have to be careful for myself to not just say yes, because every minute that I'm out there doing that, being busy potentially opening a door is time. I'm not spending on making sure my house is in order, my business affairs are in order. I'm tending to the crops that I have already invested in, and so I just think whatever. I'm sure many of your listeners are cognizant of that, but don't think just because you're busy means that you are necessarily effective and you get to determine by what standard you measure your effectiveness minus mine has changed over the years. Sometimes it is the number of things that I can measure as a productive output. I'm not a musician, but tours I put together, deals I've signed, whatever. Sometimes it's money, sometimes it's something else, but inevitably there's so many times that it's like, oh my God, I'm so busy. What the fuck am I busy with? Am I busy with things that are actually moving the needle or am I busy with things just so I can say to myself that I'm busy?

Speaker 2 (01:06:04):

Very good question. I totally agree.

Speaker 3 (01:06:06):

Yeah, and I mean you have to figure that out and how to answer it on your own. I can't answer that for you. Me, money is not the prime motivator, good or bad. Take it for what it is. That said, I have to have money to survive unless you're the guy buying me lunch and you're buying it for me every single day, and I also need breakfast and dinner and a roof over my head and a car to drive. So as you can see, things are adding up quite quickly to indicate that I do need money, but I operate under the pretense that if I do good work and I do it for great people and I can deliver results, the money provided that I pay some attention to it is going to follow. That said, if money is what you want, use that as your measurement. That's totally okay with me, but

Speaker 2 (01:06:48):

Either way, no matter which one it is, I think it's really, really important to realize that anyone you're talking to who has established themselves to some degree places a lot of value on their time, some more than others, but everyone does. And so to ask that, even if you're giving them something of monetary value, that may not be enough. Like you're saying, money might not be the measure of something, so offering somebody to buy them lunch, it's like, dude, I don't need you to buy me lunch. I'm doing all right. Let's get to the heart of the matter. What would we actually be meaning for?

Speaker 3 (01:07:31):

Totally. No, I think that that's smart. I mean, again, it is. It's about having a specific ask and understanding that if that ask isn't something that the recipient is interested in, yeah, be respectful, understand that it'll come back around or at least it can come back around.

Speaker 2 (01:07:51):

Mr. Maori, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

Speaker 3 (01:07:54):

Dude, it's an honor and a pleasure. I love what you guys are doing. I love that you include me in certain aspects of it. I love the community that you've created. I watch it as much as I can. I'm not a mixer. That said, I'm involved with plenty of artists and we have producer conversations, mixing conversations, mastering conversations, and I just think we're moving towards this place where being educated and being experienced is the way that you're going to stand out to be able to put yourself in a position that allows you to build those relationships. One thing that we didn't say that I did think of at the top of the hour or the top of the podcast was relationships are everything. Right? That said, it's also how you fulfill whatever the portion of the equation that you bring to the table in any given relationship, right?

(01:08:50):

Al and I have known each other for a long time at this point that said, the reason that we're on this podcast together, the reason that we still engage with one another is he shows up when I ask him to, even when I don't ask him to, I show up when he asks me to, even when he doesn't ask me to. We do the things we say we're going to do. We do them to a certain level of professionalism that the other one respects. The people that are just in this for the relationships or aren't able to actually provide value in a scenario where they have a relationship, they are weeded out very quickly,

Speaker 2 (01:09:28):

Very, very quickly. Actually.

Speaker 3 (01:09:29):

Once again, thanks to you and your crew for giving me this opportunity, and yeah, rock on.

Speaker 2 (01:09:36):

Yeah, we'll see you in.

Speaker 3 (01:09:37):

You'll see me in the pit, bro.

Speaker 2 (01:09:39):

Yes. Yeah, right. I've never been in a pit once

Speaker 3 (01:09:41):

In my life. Hey, man, if it's anything like last year, there'll be a rap battle, especially after this MGKM.

Speaker 2 (01:09:49):

I don't even know what you're talking about.

Speaker 3 (01:09:51):

Awesome. Alright, well thanks dude. Alright, thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:09:54):

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