JOEY STURGIS: The Real “Secret Sauce”, Balancing Guitars vs Vocals, and Monitoring on a Budget

Speaker 1 (00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast, brought to you by Drum Forge. Drum Forge is a forward-thinking developer of audio tools and software for musicians and producers alike. Founded on the idea that great drum sounds should be obtainable for everyone, we focus on your originality, drum forge, it's your sound. And now your host, Joey Sturgis.

Speaker 2 (00:22):

Is this thing on? Hello? Hello. Welcome. Hey guys, Joey here. This is another episode of Dear Joey. Thank you guys for tuning in and if you have a question, you can send it to Joey at URM Academy with the subject. Dear Joey. So we're going to answer some questions here today and love that you guys are being active writing in getting some questions off. That's really good. So this first question comes from Jay and he asks, first off, thank you for taking my question and everything you guys are doing also wanted to say on behalf of the community, we all appreciate you behind the scenes manning the board, making sure the stream and everything else technical goes as smooth as possible. And his question is, my question concerns advice on starting your own business. He says you are a true entrepreneur in every sense, and I would really appreciate your advice.

(01:28):

Oh, thanks for the compliment. I recently started a venture and I've been keeping on the back burner after your last year, Joey podcast. I finally said, just do it. So no small time. I just wanted to know what books on business, website or YouTube pages you would recommend to anyone starting your own business? Who are some of your biggest business influences that you also watch and listen to? Thanks again for everything you do. Thanks for the question, man, and all the kind words you had to say. What's really interesting about your question is the first thing that comes to my mind when I read this is you said books. So it's kind of interesting to me because you assume that a lot of it comes from books. And I think my observation of seeing that in your message is part of what makes a powerful and successful entrepreneurs to sort of read between the lines.

(02:34):

So I read your message, but I could see on the inside that you assume that this stuff comes from books. What if it doesn't? And that's one of the things, one of the qualities and traits I think that I have that makes me a unique entrepreneur is just to question everything and to always be very cautious of information. But to answer your question, quite literally, it doesn't really come from books, it actually comes from observation. And that's why I wanted to start my answer with this because I wanted to lead into how I observe the world and business in general. And part of what fuels me as a businessman and an entrepreneur is to see what other people are doing and to think about what's going through their mind when they're doing it and try to put myself in their shoes. And once you find some really good, I almost want to call them phantom mentors.

(03:32):

And what I mean by that is people who aren't directly mentoring you, but through their work, they're mentoring you. Once you find some really good phantom mentors to feed off of, then you will unlock so many different secrets when you start to think that way. And some of the people I would recommend would be Gary v, Tim Ferris, Tony Robbins. I try to look for people who have daily content because it is nice to have that mentor, that phantom mentor in your ear on a daily basis kind of talking to you and guiding you unknowingly even. And these guys know what they're doing and they're making a business out of what they do. So there is a grain of salt factor that comes to phantom mentoring. But I do think that I've learned a lot just from kind of observing and I would recommend you do the same.

(04:38):

Alright, next question comes from Nathan. Clues close. It's up, Nathan. He asks, Hey, joy, I remember a while back you stated that you had a secret sauce to your guitar vocal and mastering chains. You basically said there was some extra magic going on that you would never share with the world. However, I've watched all of your nail mixes and your mixes always end up right there as good as the originals. So have you shared that magic with us already? It doesn't seem like there's anything missing from your mixes when you finish your NTM Live dates. Thank you for reading this and thank you Al and Joel and Joey for what you're doing with NTM and URM. You guys are making history. Thanks, man. I guess you could say you've probably seen the magic really. I think what I intended by that statement when I said it was that the whole is the sum of all the parts.

(05:33):

And there's a lot of parts that go into making a great guitar sound. The first thing is having a good composition or a good arrangement. So what is the guitar doing? If it's doing something that's good, then you're off to a great start. If it's doing something that's bad, there's probably not something you can salvage there. So that's really important is to start off with something that's well arranged and well composed. And once you've gotten that, then you need a great guitar and a good guitar player. Obviously. Sometimes those are factors you can't control. Then you need a good capturing device, which is gear, but that's the smallest part of the chain in my opinion. And then once it's in the computer, there's so many things, there's your ability to decide what's usable, to make the decisions on how you should use it and what to keep, not to keep, how to put it together and how to make it work with the song. And I think a lot of those things aren't driven by plugins, they're just driven by your decision making skills and your ability to hear.

(06:51):

And I like to, in my head, I guess I have the ability to sort of imagine 10 different scenarios at once, which allows me to inform me on making decisions. So while a guitar player or an artist is sitting next to me thinking about how something sounds or listening to how something sounds, I'm thinking about how it could sound in 10 different ways. And I'm doing that in hyper speed, so I can usually pivot very quickly. And I think being able to pivot quickly is basically the definition of adaptable. So being adaptable is probably the secret sauce. Basically being able to take what you're given and turn it into something and being adaptable in that sort of approach is really the secret sauce. Now as far as actual processing secret sauce goes, I would just have to say it really comes down to knowing what order to put things in your chain and also knowing how that will affect the total outcome of the sound.

(07:59):

And then just knowing that understanding what the waveforms of a guitar tone really are and how to affect them. Because basically you're going to lose most if not all of your dynamics in a good guitar tone. So then the processing starts to become more linear. And once you understand linear processing, then you can explore things that wouldn't be intuitive, I guess I should say. Cool. Next question comes from Roy. Hey Roy, how are you doing? He asks, I can't seem to get vocal and guitar leveling correct. Most of the time I feel that they're either too loud and cover the whole mix, but when I turn it down, I feel like I don't have enough impact. Could you give me some tips on what to look for when getting the levels of vocals and guitars just right. This has to do with something I like to call weight or density.

(09:03):

And in audio that can be sort of a foreign concept because it's just sound waves floating in the air. How can you tell how much something weighs or whatever? But with saturation and dynamic or lack thereof, you can change the weight of audio, you can change the weight of a signal. And part of getting these two things to work is making sure that one of them's not heavier than the other, and also making sure that both of them have substantial weight. So here's what I would consider zero pounds. Zero pounds would be just the dry signal, just a voice through a microphone with nothing on it, no eq, no compression, no overdrive of the microphone, preamp, just a straight vocal signal going through a mic that would be like zero pounds. And then having a gain reduction on a hundred percent with a little bit of distortion on the gain output, a little bit of EQ on there, some reverbs and delay, maybe even some parallel compression underneath that would be a hundred percent weight.

(10:21):

That would be the most dense that the vocal could probably possibly get without sounding stupid. And the same thing is true for the guitar. Just a guitar through an amp, through a cab is probably zero pounds and then compressing that or limiting that or putting some harmonic excitement on it after a limiter, et cetera, et cetera. That's like a hundred percent weight, like the full capacity weight. So it's a balance of those things and getting them to work together is simply a matter of if you have your guitar at let's say 50% weight and your vocals also at 50% weight and you put them up against each other, the difference in having it balanced or not is basically EQ carving. Or it could be also the arrangement of your mix, turning that guitar down when it's not important, turning it up when it is important. And same thing with the vocals. So it's a little bit of a bunch of different stuff.

(11:23):

I feel like it could be accomplished through means of automation and EQing. And then also just making sure that the way you have your density set up, which would be the limiting, the compression, the saturation, having that density set up properly is the only way to even get started with getting that balance correct. So hopefully that guides you in some sort of direction. Alright, next question comes from Clay. And Clay is going to ask, Hey, I recently bought the Vesta collide stems and I've become obsessed with how well everything is tracked. It seemed like any amp stem I put on them sounded better than any tone I've ever been able to come up with. I'm currently running my signal into a Neve DI box into a Sapphire Pro 40 from Focus. Right. Do you have any tips on getting my deis to sound more exciting?

(12:16):

So that's a good observation and I'm really happy that a lot of you guys are learning through these stems just by having them and looking at them, because I want people to see that what we do as producers and engineers is not just pressing buttons and stuff, it's being able to put together content and material in an artistic way. And I think part of that art form, in my opinion, is doing it so well that, like you said, any guitar amp sim you put on that guitar di is going to sound amazing. And that's part of our art form. I really want to believe that and I want others to see that as well. So the trick to doing this is, like I said a little earlier in this podcast, it is kind of having good material, having good equipment, having a good guitar player, having a good guitar, all that stuff is basically irreplaceable.

(13:19):

And I would assume that if you've got a Knee di box and you have a Sapphire Pro 40, I have never used those two things, but I would take a look at them because just because it says Neve and just because it says Sapphire, I mean that really, it's just brand names. And that's something else that I think comes with the territory of being a good producer is just taking a very practical look at anything, questioning everything. For example, if I record some huge famous band, I want to assume that the drummer is good or the guitar player is good. I want to assume that what I've seen them do on YouTube, if I've watched them live on YouTube or whatever, I want to assume that that's how great they play every night or whatever. But sometimes it's not the case, and that can be true all the way up to big major bands.

(14:19):

I mean, you can be in a huge successful band and not be too great at guitar. So I like to question everything. Never assume that anything's going to go the way you think it should go. So I would challenge your DI box. I would challenge your interface. I would challenge your guitar. I would also challenge your playing ability or whoever you're recording, how well they play. Take a look at those things because they might not be up to snuff. It could be editing as well, and editing is a big thing that factors into a guitar tone.

(15:02):

Alright, let's move on. Next question comes from Aaron. Aaron writes, apple has a set of plugin tools for inters sample detection, and you can grab it from their site. They say it will help adjust final levels resulting in a non clipped conversion of a CC part of their mastering tools for iTunes protocol, which states for maximum quality submitted masters should be at full depth pre dithering. How accurate is Apple ISD? I use isotopes ISD in maximizer seems to help, but Apple shows way more clips in my source so much that some of the songs I have to back down by 1.5 decibels as my output ceiling. Is this tool necessary? Most of the artists go through iTunes also. Many of them just use an aggregate to do it for them. Since a company like CD Baby usually does both, would I approach each duplication scenario the same, ISD on everything.

(16:02):

Thanks Aaron. My first bit of advice for you is if you're mastering something for a platform and the platform provides the tool, you should use it. It's their platform. So you're trying to force a square peg in a round hole basically by trying to use isotopes. ISD use apple's ISD. That's why they provide it. The next thing I would say, which is a much bigger problem for your clients is this whole aggregate situation. If I were you, I would just work on becoming authorized for whatever's certified for mfi, because that's going to not only bring you more business, but also make you an authority on the topic. And once you learn everything you need to learn for that, you're not going to have these problems and you're not going to be dealing with this stuff. So my advice to you is become certified for mfi, use Apple's tool and stop working with these aggregates because they don't give a shit.

(17:09):

Alright, next question comes from Mr. Harry. And Harry asks, Hey Joey. I'm currently working on an instrumental song. It's kind of like Steve I, and it has drums, bass, ambient guitars, power chords, roads, synths, and it all takes up a lot of room. I created a lead to distort a guitar theme on a seven string, which includes the lower strings in the melody. I have a hard time to get the lower notes heard in the mix without destroying the bass and kick sounds. What options do I have to make the lead stand out more in the lower register? This question is related to handling dense mixes. Thanks, Harry. The problem is pretty simple because it comes down to composition and arrangement. If you are playing these low notes and it's getting all muddy with the kick in the bass, guess what? Something's got to go.

(17:55):

So in the situation where the guitar player is doing a lead or a solo and he is hitting those low notes, I'm going to go in and automate the bass out a little bit or down or lower or take out some frequencies or something. Depends on, I'm not looking at your song, so I'm not sure where my options are. But I would start looking at compensating and decompensating for that because it's a simple fundamental rule that if similar sign waves or similar waveforms are all playing the same notes at the same time, it'll be impossible to tell the difference of the instruments. And also they will get louder with each other. So if my kick and my bass and my guitar all play and a sharp lowest octave a sharp, your whole mix is going to go up. I don't know, I'm just going to pick a frequency.

(18:51):

I don't know it offhand, but let's just say it's like 45 hertz. All 45 hertz is just going to have a giant bump during that note. And your mix is doing this constantly all the time. But luckily with most music, the guitar players playing in a certain register, the bass is playing in a certain register and the kick lives in a certain register, and all those registers are far enough apart for the frequencies to not build up an insane amount. But when you start doing a solo, which is essentially a lot of notes moving quickly over a passage of time, then it is possible for those frequency buildups to happen and you're going to have to do some trade off. You're going to have to do some trading. So I would recommend doing some automation. If it's too complex of a piece, I would probably just use multi-band compression side chain it.

(19:50):

Then what happens is the multi-band compressor will start clamping down on the low end of the bass or the kick drum when the guitar starts to trigger frequencies in those ranges. So hopefully that makes sense. If you are having trouble with that, you should check out our fast track on the enhanced program for understanding low end because it teaches you how to control low end and it's really good. So let's do one more question here. This question is going to come from Dave and Dave says, dear Joey, thanks for doing this and helping us achieve better mixes every day with JST and Unstoppable Recording Machine. Regarding monitoring for mixing, mastering Modern metal, what pieces of advice can you give for mixes to sound huge and translate? Assuming a room is the least minimally treated, would you prefer having two sets of cheap but different speakers or a dedicated high-end one for double the price? Do you personally work best with flattening or un flattening speakers? And what are your thoughts on needing subs for the modern style you're known for and any other gems that may come to mind? Thanks again. First thing I would say is I'd rather have two pairs of speakers instead of one more listening sources is better than less because it tells you more about your mix. That's my opinion.

(21:19):

I would even check it on a phone, check it in a car, check it on both speaker systems, go to your friend's house, check on his speakers, do whatever you can. The more you hear it in different places, the more you learn about your mix. Do you personally work best with flattening and flattening speakers? I've never done that. Don't know what that means. Even I'm assuming that you're talking about playing some sort of white noise through the speakers and then picking it up with a microphone that's positioned at the listening position and then recording the result and then looking at the frequency response and then adjusting the frequencies of the speakers until the result is flat.

(21:58):

All that stuff just seems like a lot of nonsense to me. Now, I'm sure professionals, especially people who make money from acoustic modifications will probably tell you differently because that's their job, but I don't know. I've never done it and look at where I'm at. My thoughts on needing a sub, I've never used a sub when mixing. I don't like it. Think it sounds weird. Never been used to it. But there's other people that say the exact same thing about not having a sub that say, oh, I have to have a sub. It sounds weird without one, blah, blah, blah. I don't know. I think that's for you to decide in a journey that you'll have to go down on your own. My advice is it's possible to do it without a sub because that's what I did and I never liked it. I've tried it a few times. I hate it. Sounds weird to me. Alright guys, that's going to wrap it up for this episode. Dear Joey, thank you for tuning in. If you've got any questions, you can send 'em to Joey at UR m Academy. Make sure you put Dear Joey in the subject line. Be happy to answer and keep rocking. Stay cool, stay classy. See you. The

Speaker 1 (23:05):

Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast is brought to you by Drum Forge. Drum Forge is a forward-thinking developer of audio tools and software for musicians and producers alike. Founded on the idea that great drum sounds should be obtainable for everyone, we focus on your originality, drum forge. It's your sound. Go to drum forge.com for more info to ask us questions, make suggestions and interact. Visit nail the mix.com/podcast and subscribe today.