TYLER SMYTH: The “Gun on the Table” Moment, Outworking Everyone, Daring to Suck

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast. And now your host, Eyal Levi. Welcome to the URM podcast. Thank you so much for being here. It's crazy to think that we are now on our seventh year. Don't ask me how that all just flew by, but it did. Man. Time moves fast and it's only because of you, the listeners, if you'd like us to stick around another seven years and there's a few simple things you can do that would really, really help us out, I would endlessly appreciate if you would, number one, share our episodes with your friends. Number two, post our episodes on your Facebook and Instagram and tag me at al Levy URM audio and at URM Academy and of course our guest. And number three, leave us reviews and five star reviews wherever you can. We especially love iTunes reviews. Once again, thank you for all the years and years of loyalty.

(00:01:01):

I just want you to know that we will never charge you for this podcast, and I will always work as hard as possible to improve the episodes in every single way. All we ask in return is a share a post and tag us. Oh, and one last thing. Do you have a question you would like me to answer on an episode? I don't mean for a guest. I mean for me, it can be about anything. Email it to [email protected]. That's EYAL at m dot A-C-D-E-M-Y. There's no.com on that. It's exactly the way I spelled it. And use the subject line. Answer me aal. Alright, let's get on with it. Hello everybody. Welcome to the URM Podcast. My guest today is Tyler Smyth, who is a music producer, songwriter musician, two time Grammy nominee engineer, and now the mix instructor. Throughout his career, he's worked with bands and artists such as I Prevail, falling In Reverse Lights, bless the Fall, and his own band's, myth and Danger Kids. Also, Tyler, along with my URM partner, Joey Sturges, launched a joint effort called Band Academy that attempts to address the severe disparity in music business knowledge from a local or regional act to the veteran national and international bands and artists. Basically, they teach bands how to have their shit together. Anyways, I introduce you Tyler Smyth. Welcome to the URM Podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:02:29):

Thank you so much for having me, man. I'm very excited.

Speaker 1 (00:02:32):

I want to just get into it. You said in another interview that you think that it's a myth that there's a finite amount of success to be cultivated in the music industry. Can we talk about that some? I

Speaker 2 (00:02:44):

Would love to dive in at the deep end. This didn't expect this. Thank you. You're

Speaker 1 (00:02:48):

Welcome.

Speaker 2 (00:02:48):

This is my language, man. This is my love language In so many ways. I'm very passionate about rock music, right? Because where I got my start, and it's still where I do the bulk of what I love and something that's really irritated me over the years as I've grown, as I've worked with different artists and I've got to hear each just hundreds of perspectives on how the philosophy of a band should operate and there's a lot of cannibalization or whatever, and rock music, a lot of rock bands like to cut each other down.

Speaker 1 (00:03:16):

It's a very local band mentality.

Speaker 2 (00:03:18):

It's small potatoes, man, you're not helping you. You're not helping what you're about. It is interesting. Let me connect a few weird dots. It's like I remember when alternative press came out with their award show and a lot of people wanted to hate on it, but at the same time, everybody wanted to be a part of it. Everyone wanted to go, everyone to see who win, and then they wanted to out

Speaker 1 (00:03:35):

Out kind of like the Grammys,

Speaker 2 (00:03:37):

And then they want to complain about the winners, but really you need to get behind something that is getting behind you, right? So they're getting behind not just rock music and not just a rock scene, but I would say a scene that is personally, I think it's desperate. I think it needs attention. I think it deserves attention. And then as soon as it gets it, the own people that it's supporting are the same ones that tear it down and that cannibalization is very toxic. It's very not self-serving, although it feels that way in the moment. And I just wish more and more bands could see the bigger picture, could understand that while you're doing this, there's EDM artists collaborating with each other. There's rappers rapping on each other's songs. Not that there's not animosity between certain sects or certain groups of people. I just think that rock could benefit a lot from a bigger perspective.

(00:04:18):

And we're so used to these small potatoes things. We are so used to work towards the beginning and end that we can't imagine a world where rock is possibly can't ever be 2001 again or whatever, but it absolutely can. And I spread that philosophy everywhere I go. It's amazing to start the show with it. There's plenty of room. That fact has benefited my career immensely as someone who prized themselves and considered themselves to be an artist first and foremost, who's been signed four or five times, but never had any great success. You're forced to learn some tough lessons in that process. And one of those lessons is like someone else's success is not my failure. In fact, it's kind of the opposite. It someone else's success oftentimes elevates me and elevates where I'm at in my life. And if I'm not such a shithead, for lack of a better word, or I'm not thinking so small, or I could benefit from those relationships, your win is my win. The bigger this URM podcast gets, the better it is for all music people, all producers everywhere. And I just wish more people could understand that.

Speaker 1 (00:05:20):

Absolutely. When my band got signed a roadrunner back in the day, there was another Atlanta band who was also being talked to by Roadrunner. They were being talked to by Mike Gitter, legendary a and r guy, and we were being talked to by Monty Connor, two completely separate deals, totally independent of each other. They thought they were in competition with us for the deal. At the end of the day, we got offered a deal and they didn't for whatever reasons, and they started putting out around town here in Atlanta that we stole their record deal or that my dad bought the record deal. All this crazy shit. Shit. A few years later I was at the Roadrunner office hanging out with Gitter. I was like, I'm going to ask him about this.

Speaker 2 (00:06:04):

Oh yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:06:05):

I always wanted to know how close did they come to getting a deal? Was it truly that there was only budget to sign one new band or something? Is there any truth to this? I didn't think there was. So I brought it up and he busted out laughing and he was like, dude, they don't even know how far away they were from getting offered a deal. Nobody stole anybody's fucking deal.

Speaker 2 (00:06:29):

Of course not. That's like

Speaker 1 (00:06:30):

It's

Speaker 2 (00:06:31):

A big powerful moment in your life when you finally understand that it's not the end of the world to point the blame at yourself.

Speaker 1 (00:06:38):

No, it's actually a good thing,

Speaker 2 (00:06:40):

Right? That's when the growth happens. That's when you become unstoppable, quite honestly. And I think it's easy to point at someone else, they stole my record deal. They took this opportunity from me, or maybe it was you.

Speaker 1 (00:06:51):

So Roadrunner, I don't know how they do things now, but back in the day, I imagine it's similar now. I mean, getting signed a Roadrunner is a big fucking deal. Huge label. Especially if you are not an established band. I'm sure that Megadeath getting signed a roadrunner is different than my band getting signed a Roadrunner. But for unsigned bands, baby bands, they would make you jump through hoops, tons of hoops, and they would court you for a year, a year and a half. And anytime you would think that, okay, I did what they needed, they'd issue another challenge. Produce a music video on your own, remind you, this is 2005, not today, where you can just do that kind of stuff. Or there was always something. And that other band was also getting the challenges, the rings of fire they had to jump through and they started to get impatient. And then one day they exploded on gitter and were like, one of those, what the fuck, man, are we going to do this or not one of those?

Speaker 2 (00:07:53):

So stupid man.

Speaker 1 (00:07:54):

And that was the end of that.

Speaker 2 (00:07:56):

For people listening, and correct me if I'm wrong, you would know this, but Mike signed a lot. I mean, like you said, famous, he signed kill switching cage, right?

Speaker 3 (00:08:03):

Mean

Speaker 2 (00:08:03):

He discovered, he's discovered a lot of famous, I mean, inevitably Roadrunner is one of the most ubiquitous rock labels historically ever. I mean you're talking everything from corn and Slipknot to Nickelback and stuff. I mean,

Speaker 1 (00:08:16):

And Dey and Sura typo. Negative. It goes back.

Speaker 2 (00:08:20):

Listen to that range though. It goes, yeah, as mainstream as you could ever fathom to, as not mainstream as you could ever fat. It's a dream. As a rock fan, as an artist in a band, Roadrunner is one of those labels that you're like, oh yeah, let's go.

Speaker 1 (00:08:34):

My goal was Roadrunner from the start. I was totally unrealistic, but that was the idea. But alright, I want your version of the story. I

Speaker 2 (00:08:41):

Want to say also that I am was offered a Roadrunner deal and my experiences were much like yours that you described where it was almost a year of courting and the negotiation of the actual deal, and we ended up not signing it, but it was no hard feelings or anything like that. It was just major labels expect a lot because they want to give a lot. And it was more than I was willing to give. And so it was no hard feelings.

Speaker 1 (00:09:02):

It's funny that you say that it was more than you were willing to give. My thoughts were we're going to get dropped after one album because, so I'm going to take this because there's no way they're going to keep us on for a second record. We're death metal. They're signing us because they miss having a new death metal band and Monty's feeling nostalgic for the nineties. That's it. He loves our songs. This is not a smart business move. They're going to drop us. We're taking this because after the end of this, we're going to be out there and then we'll sign with Century Media or Nuclear blast or something. And that's what happened.

Speaker 2 (00:09:38):

I mean, you're not being unrealistic. You're just playing it. You have a play. You are like, here's how I see things going down. That's smart. How many people go into this stuff and they go, music is my life. I want to be a producer. I want to be an artist. I'm on a tour, but they've never given it. They have no plan. Like, oh, it's your life, but you've never even thought about it. What is that? It is so weird to me.

Speaker 1 (00:10:00):

God, I have a plan.

Speaker 2 (00:10:02):

You, I'm in a local scene. I'm in Ohio, I'm coming up. I want to be in a band. I'm a guitarist at this point. I'm definitely not a vocalist, but I'm a band maker from day one. So from day one, I'm meeting all the best people. I'm trying to build the biggest local band with hopes of, like you said, I want to get signed. I want to go to Roadrunner. I want to tour the world. Ultimately, I start to get what becomes my first record deal, and I start to do my first tours and I start to really get out there first national tours a couple years later. Now all of a sudden I'm international and we are still not a big band, but we're getting these opportunities, which is all I ever wanted.

Speaker 1 (00:10:33):

You're doing it.

Speaker 2 (00:10:33):

All I ever wanted was the shot, right? The experience. So I'm out there, I'm doing it. And I couldn't fight this feeling that. I'm like, I know so many people that are better than me. Everyone back in Ohio is truly better than me. I'm the worst guitarist I know, but why am I getting signed is the question I kept asking myself. And what I come to realize came to realize was, and I'm saying this for people listening, this was a real transformative moment for me. But if you are listening, this was big. I realized that it's so simple, but on the hierarchy of the importance of skills, being really strong with your instrument is probably number six on the most important skills that you need to have.

Speaker 1 (00:11:10):

Do you have it down to number six?

Speaker 2 (00:11:12):

I mean, I'm sort of just throwing a number out there.

Speaker 1 (00:11:14):

Okay, I was wondering what one through five are.

Speaker 2 (00:11:17):

We think that the thing that's gatekeeping us from our success is that we're not good enough at our instrument, but it's that we're not good enough at everything else. You know what I mean? The truth is, I agree you were probably good enough at your instrument five years ago, but what you're not good enough at is you're not good enough at maybe it's constructing a song, maybe it's networking, maybe it's like saying you're going to do something and then following through and doing that thing. That's a skill that not everyone has. Some people are great at it. I think I'm fantastic at it. And once I realized that, that became my superpower. So I was like, oh, so I'm not better, but I will outwork any motherfucker that thinks they can step to me. And that became the mantra all the time is it doesn't matter. Right now I'm in Michigan, I'm working on this new Ivel record. It's fucking insanely good man. And this isn't me being a hype man, it's that I should have gone into this being nervous just following the success of the previous record. But I knew before we even had one note that I was like, I'm just going to sit there until it's amazing. You know what I mean? That's what I just kept telling myself.

(00:12:16):

It doesn't matter. I don't know how the songs go yet. We haven't made a single note on this new, I mean, that's not true now. Now we have all the songs written and we're way into it and it is good. But at that time, there's a period where you just don't know. Maybe you're listening, you're in a band, you're sitting at home and you're like, I think my band is dope, but I don't know. Or you want to be a producer and maybe you want to make the next I prevail. You want to do that, and you are your only fan, right? You're the only person in your mind going, I think I'm pretty good at this. And maybe your parents are supportive in some tiny way where they're just like, oh, you're smart, you got it. Or maybe they're not. But the point is, it's not just your proficiency at even engineering or even mixing a snare drum.

(00:12:58):

It's so many things. Are you good at communication? Can you develop an atmosphere where you can dare to suck? There's true artistic exploration where there aren't stupid ideas. It only starts that way. You know what I mean? It's like I think the sooner you can let go and you can become confident, find what makes you confident. For me, it's knowing that I will outwork anybody. And even if we make the album and it sucks, guess what? I'm going to sit there until it doesn't suck anymore. End of story. That's it. And that gives me the confidence to not be nervous going into any session. I go into one day sessions, they feel like they happen so fast with people that I just never thought I'd be in a room with. I mean, nothing crazy, but just those things where you just really, you feel outside of yourself for a second and you're kind of like,

Speaker 1 (00:13:41):

It's surreal. This

Speaker 2 (00:13:42):

Is what I wanted. Yeah, that's all I think is I look around and as much as I want to complain and I want to be at home playing video games or whatever, I'm like, I'm not. I'm in Michigan. I'm in an Airbnb, but this is what I want to dude. You know what I mean? This is what it is. This is what I've been putting all this effort into. Do it, enjoy it. Live it, own it. It's yours. We've made this with the band. I'm not taking credit with the band. I'm just saying this life of mine, this career, the fact that I get to wake up and pursue music every day is the dream. That's the dream I always had. And for me, it started then it started with realizing what my strengths were and maybe more importantly, what my weaknesses were. I think I'm a great songwriter. However, to get there, my idea of a great song just takes me a long time. And for some people, that's not a good fit for some people. It's just not what it is. But

Speaker 1 (00:14:29):

No, some people need it in five minutes, literally.

Speaker 2 (00:14:32):

Yeah. I'm skipping ahead a little bit, but I've had these transformative moments. I had one with trauma where the last IL album, sorry, was called Trauma, and we were finishing it up last little bit. We're at 90, 95% done. And at this point, I'm still, the record's a little bit over time, and the people at the label who were fighting for me had basically fought as much as they could with their higher ups at the parent label, which is Concord because they're a fearless records band.

Speaker 1 (00:14:57):

Just for people that don't know, deadlines for labels are kind of important.

Speaker 2 (00:15:01):

Yeah. I mean, look, you're fucking with their money at the end of the day. I mean, they have a business running. It's not wrong for them to feel that way. Their job is to keep the shit moving. If there's no label, there's no artist on the, it's like everyone's working together here. Everyone's on the same page. The a and r person who is amazing, literally one of the few, just incredible a and r people. His name's Andy Rao, and he's now the president of Fearless. But he was talking with their higher ups and he went,

Speaker 1 (00:15:26):

Shout out Andy,

Speaker 2 (00:15:27):

Dude is the realest thing completely fueled by passion like me too. But he said, look, I've been telling these higher ups, it's worth the wait. It's worth the wait. They've heard it from me a lot. Would you mind coming in and just explaining to them where the album is at? And I was like, sure. So I go into the Concord office. It feels very much like an entourage moment where I sort of had to do it. I had to put it all on the line anyways, literally we're in a boardroom meeting with a long table, like a TV show and all these execs on the other end. And I literally said, I was like, you don't want this album. You want this album in three weeks. You know what I mean? I was like, please just trust me. And the words I actually said was perhaps overly cocky and overly confident. I didn't really think about it until I left the room, but I was like, when this album comes out, you won't care about how long it took. That's all I said. Thankfully that was true. Although I didn't know if it was true at the time. I'm just,

Speaker 1 (00:16:18):

So, I call it putting the gun on the table in the movie where you're negotiating with somebody and they put the gun on the table to kind of prove the point that this is the way it is. And I mean, you don't have to agree, but this is the way it is. I mean, that's not a hundred percent putting the gun on the table, but it kind of is. It's like I

Speaker 2 (00:16:38):

Get that you

Speaker 1 (00:16:38):

Can take it the way it is now. You're shooting yourself. You don't want this option.

Speaker 2 (00:16:44):

I am making it, and I'm telling you you don't want it. And the cool thing was they were very receptive. They were totally chill. I think I went into it with Andy going, look. He's like, look, they've heard it from me for a while. I think it would be nice to hear it from you in your terms. I did. I staked it. I was like, these are my terms. This is how I see it going down. All the cards on the table, gun on the table. It's like, that's sick. I love that expression. Thankfully it did go on to be successful because Accolades Aside, it was their top grossing album of the whole year, even for the parent label, even for the major. So of all of the Concord artists, nothing grossed more than my album, which is a great spot to be after you run your mouth about it kind of thing. But I was feeling defensive of my work. I'm like, dude, are you kidding me? We put in a lifetime into this, and now you want to chop the last little bit off. It's like,

Speaker 1 (00:17:33):

Man, you got to feel that way though. You have to feel that way about your own work. I know that sometimes people feel insecure about their work, but there are moments I think, where you're faced with a decision where you know that if you don't make this move, things are going to be destroyed. Or maybe they're just not going to be nearly as good as they could be, but you have to get other people to believe you,

Speaker 2 (00:18:00):

And that's fair. And they deserve it.

Speaker 1 (00:18:02):

They deserve it, but they could also tell you to go fuck yourself. They might not believe you. And so there's a big risk involved in that. And I think you have to go in believing what you're saying. You have to be cocky about it because you personally have to believe it. If you don't believe it enough to put the gun on the table, then why would they believe you? I

Speaker 2 (00:18:23):

Love that, man. Wow. I literally have chills with you talking right now, just so you know. I'm not playing look at that because I'm reliving that moment and I'm listening to the things you're saying, and it's all too real and too vivid. And I guess for anyone else who's listening, when you're by yourself and you're recording local bands, there's not necessarily a label. The boss is the band, and that's it, because the band is paying for it, and it's the band's product, but with a label, it's like things get separated into three parties now, and there's a neat side effect that can happen. Look, I am that type of person. I'm the kick the door down for my artist type of person. I can't help how deep it runs with me. I think it is scary to people sometimes because the way I run a session, I don't know. I can't work with everyone. That's all it is. But there's this neat thing that happens when you do have a label that is providing a deadline, a lot of healthy things that come with that, right? As a producer, we have a lot of really negative habits,

Speaker 1 (00:19:15):

Structure, schedule.

Speaker 2 (00:19:17):

It can be completely undone with a schedule, which is good. But there's still that part of you that maybe if you're going from a local artist and now you're doing your first signed production work, there's this neat side effect that happens where when the label is pushing you like that, you become more prideful of your work and you become more defensive of the work because you answer to the label. You know what I mean? And you're the liaison. So when they say, Hey, we need the record now, you're forced now into a decision point where you say, okay, I'm giving them the record or I'm not. So no matter how you feel about it, you're probably thinking, no, no, it's not done. And then all of a sudden, that's what you're saying back. You're not saying in your head, you're kind of like, I think it'll be good. I don't know. But then all of a sudden you're like, it becomes, no, it has to be good. You know what I mean? It's like for me at least it changes. It becomes, well, no, I'm not giving you this. The only option is that I make this so insane that I earn the time that you're giving me. Right? I don't know. It's like a very,

Speaker 1 (00:20:12):

That's the key right there though, because labels will never go back to you again

Speaker 2 (00:20:19):

If

Speaker 1 (00:20:19):

You ask for more time. And then don't earn that time.

Speaker 2 (00:20:23):

And don't get me wrong, I asked for extensions more than once, but nothing. But it was always very communicative, very well in advance. But that being said, it does have to get done too. And I obviously wanted to get done.

Speaker 1 (00:20:34):

Oh, it's a big risk to ask for that extension. You better be backing that up. But the thing is, so do you know who Colin Richardson is?

Speaker 2 (00:20:44):

Yes.

Speaker 1 (00:20:44):

One of the most badass metal mixers of all time

Speaker 2 (00:20:47):

Basically

Speaker 1 (00:20:48):

Created modern metal sound. I don't think that he would have a problem with me saying this because it's kind of a known thing. He takes a long time. He doesn't move on with anything until it's exactly the way he wants it. And he's always been that way. And so if that means shit's going to take longer, it's going to take longer. He never worked at his own studio. He always went to studios in London and stuff

Speaker 2 (00:21:15):

Even more expensive.

Speaker 1 (00:21:16):

Yeah. So that's money.

Speaker 2 (00:21:18):

Thousand a day, probably at a big studio. When

Speaker 1 (00:21:21):

He mixed my record, not his fee, the studio fee was 1200 pounds a day.

Speaker 2 (00:21:26):

Oh yeah. Even more than I thought. Yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:21:27):

1200 pounds a day.

Speaker 2 (00:21:29):

Yo, back then, that's like double, because it was two to one back then, right? With your band. I mean, you're talking about the exchange rate where it was like $2 to one

Speaker 1 (00:21:37):

Pound. Yes, it was expensive as fuck. But listen to the results that he would get for those labels,

Speaker 2 (00:21:44):

And we're still talking about it, man.

Speaker 1 (00:21:46):

Exactly. I wonder how long that Slipknot record he did took All Hope is gone. It's so great. It's awesome.

Speaker 2 (00:21:54):

It's so big, man. I get chills right now, man. I want to be a Colin Richardson, you know what I mean? I don't want to waste the band's time, and I don't want to waste my own time. I literally am over here. You might laugh, I'm just going to say it on the podcast, but I'm always trying to think legacy shit, and I'm not trying to sit here thinking everything I do is No, no, no. I'm saying if I'm not trying my hardest, then what is the point? That's the point I'm trying to make. I'm not trying to just make a little noodle song that goes on radio for a month and then disappears. You know what I mean? I want something that I can say in 10 years, oh, I did this song. And people will be like, oh, that was a banger. You know what I mean? That song stood the test of time. I still remember it

Speaker 1 (00:22:32):

10 years later, nobody's going to care if you needed that extra month if it's a psychosocial.

Speaker 2 (00:22:40):

Yeah. This is what I meant when I said, if you're listening and you're your own biggest fan and you're a producer and you're all you have right now going, I think I'm onto something. I think I'm onto something. Listen, that was me doing. I prevail. I mean, prior to this. I don't have a ton of credits. Let's be real. But I think that my ascent hopefully is or will begin to speak for itself soon or in the next couple of years.

Speaker 1 (00:23:01):

Dude, it's speaking for itself. You're modest.

Speaker 2 (00:23:03):

Thank you. But truthfully, look at it. I mean, on paper, between you and me, you guys listening, I've been producing local bands for well over a decade. I mean, I'm probably going on 13 or 14 years now, but professionally speaking big records, how many have I done? Four or five? Maybe not a ton. I mean, I don't know what you consider a big record, but

Speaker 1 (00:23:21):

From an outsider's perspective, I feel like your big records have been in the past three, four years,

Speaker 2 (00:23:27):

Definitely, maybe even less. And I noticed that too. And to me, that's a very optimistic sign, right? It's like, Ooh, I'm connecting. I'm doing something right. That's

Speaker 1 (00:23:35):

Great.

Speaker 2 (00:23:36):

Listen to it like this. It's easy to look back and be like, yo, trauma that I Prevail album. It was nominated for Rock Album of the Year at the Grammys. It's easy to say that now, but back then, I'm following up a record with a rock band whose debut album has platinum singles on it, and the record itself is gold. You can look at it like, yo, you're walking into a huge album. Or you can look at it like You're about to fuck this band all up, dude. You know what I mean? They built the biggest career for themselves, and if you do this wrong, you are done. You look like it's a high stakes game, man, in my opinion.

Speaker 1 (00:24:09):

So you strike me as a super positive, like you said, fueled by passion kind of person. However you just said, there's some pressure involved in that situation. So I mean, now you're, I'm not going to say used to it, especially back then, when it's your first time with those kinds of stakes where not only could you fuck up their career, but your own,

Speaker 2 (00:24:33):

Why would a label ever trust me with a huge budget record? If I fucking bombed their biggest band, they're not going to ever do it.

Speaker 1 (00:24:40):

Yeah. If you have a track record of a decade of success and then something bombs, people are going to blame the band.

Speaker 2 (00:24:48):

Now I feel like I have some validation from the success or whatever, but prior to that, I still didn't have that. I moved to LA about five years ago, lost all my clients. I was just recording local Ohio bands. So essentially lost my reputation as the guy in Ohio.

Speaker 1 (00:25:03):

Just out of curiosity, real quick, did it matter to you that you had Joey in your corner?

Speaker 2 (00:25:07):

No. I think having Joey was magical, but I think that if

Speaker 1 (00:25:10):

Joey Sturgis, by the way,

Speaker 2 (00:25:11):

Joey Sturgis, right, is one of my best friends. I met him when I was in college and when he was just getting started, I was the third band he ever recorded.

Speaker 1 (00:25:20):

Joey's been a big champion for you, but alright, but back to the pressure.

Speaker 2 (00:25:23):

Well, and I think we should talk about that at a later time too, because Joey was humongous for me in my life, but not in the way that people think. I think the obvious thing is if you're a producer and you're listening, you're like, oh, Joey taught him how to do everything. And it's like what Joey did, actually, Joey will be the first one to tell you that he wouldn't teach me shit. It pissed me off. I was like, show me how to do the snare, Joey.

Speaker 1 (00:25:44):

He told me that he didn't really teach you much. He was just your champion. He believed in you.

Speaker 2 (00:25:49):

And that meant enough for me to keep going. I think we all need that. We all need someone who isn't ourselves that's going, nah man, I think you can do it, or Nah, you got something special. Joey always thought I had something special, and I remember the speech he told me where he is. The short version is, I can show you how to do everything I do, but you'll always be a shitty version of me. And he was like, or I can teach you how to arrive at this stuff. And he's like, who knows, man, you could be way better than me. And this is in a time when I'm thinking, I mean, Joey is just now doing the first Prada album. You know what I mean? This is like

(00:26:25):

10 plus years ago. This is forever ago. This is Unsigned Prada album. This is them as a local band. But I mean, even then, I just knew that there was magic in the room with him and I wanted to be where it was happening. And so I would drive from Ohio to Indiana and back every single day, and I would work for him for free. And eventually he started paying me $10 an hour, which wasn't even enough to cover my gas, but it didn't matter. I was taking out student loans and I was taking the money and I was driving to Joey's and I just wanted to be there because all I knew is there was an energy, there was bands coming and he was spitting out music, and at the time it was unrivaled. Even though you would laugh at it now, he would laugh at it now. I mean,

Speaker 1 (00:27:02):

He does laugh at it now.

Speaker 2 (00:27:03):

Oh hell yeah. Having Joey was to have a mentor that's different. That's someone who's psychologically puffing you up and making you feel like you're just as valuable as you think you can be. And that is everything. But that's a different conversation I suppose we can get into. Let's say that's you. Let's say you do have a mentor in your life and you develop your skills and you end up in a scenario where you're like, I'm ready to land some big bands. For me, I knew early on that my strength was that I was really into the overly produced sound, very much like Joey. I probably even got a lot of, I can't sit here and pretend like I'm not insanely heavily inspired by the man. I absolutely am, but I'm proud to say that he never showed me those things. And so what I did was I took that skill where I like that heightened over the top production, and I was like, that's something I do that a lot of people won't do or can't do.

(00:27:54):

So I'm going to do these writing sessions and I'm going to just overdeliver on these songs. So my first big, big writing session I got was a falling in reverse session, and it went from Ronnie and I having never met and getting in a room and making a song to me being a producer on that whole album, and I wrote every song with him on the whole entire album. And all of that spawned off of one random writing session that I promise you never had to happen a second time. You know what I mean? People like Ronnie can go to lots of people, but he sensed an energy too. And he, like me, he told me, he's like, dude, I've been in all the big studios. I've been with all the big producers. None of that stuff matters. I don't care. I want to feel good making songs and I want to have fun and I want to make the stuff I want to make. And I'm sitting here thinking light bulbs are going. I'm like, I can do that. I can be that person. I am this role. And once I learned that that was my superpower, it helped me manage that anxiety because there's a lot of pressure, like you said. Now fast forward and I had toured with, I prevail on tour with them. I remember they were big fans of Danger Kids, my band, I like to tell people that Danger Kids was your favorite band's, favorite band. It's like you've probably maybe never heard of us, but

Speaker 1 (00:29:05):

That's how my band was.

Speaker 2 (00:29:06):

Yeah, bands loved your band. You know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (00:29:09):

Yes. Bands would come up to me at award shows. I remember being in the VIP room at Golden Gods, and I'm not going to say who, but two different winners. This one year came up to me with songs that they won off of and told me which riff they ripped off me. But I respect that so much. I was like, congrats, dude.

Speaker 2 (00:29:31):

You're not even mad about that. Right? It's probably dope. You're probably excited.

Speaker 1 (00:29:34):

That was a compliment.

Speaker 2 (00:29:36):

Absolutely. I love that story, man. Thank you for telling that. I think I've had my equivalent of things like that and nothing, I don't know. But yeah, having people like that, that champion you here and there will do wonders for you. And then letting that build your confidence. And then the last part being, let's look at me getting my first big writing session with Ronnie in a town where I have no savings, my rent is six times the cost of what it was in Ohio. I have no clients. I got to get this. You know what I mean? And it's not like I would've given up if I didn't get it. That ended up becoming a whole record that led to a whole record that led to a whole record that read to this conversation, and it all spawned off of one writing session and me knowing that everyone else is doing writing sessions, they're doing the bare minimum. They don't want to give away their sound or they don't want to make it sound that good. I was the opposite. I was like, I'm going to make this shit sound like it's already on the album, and then it's going to make every other song look fucking dumb. Obviously I know that there's insanely good writers out there, but

Speaker 1 (00:30:30):

That doesn't matter right

Speaker 2 (00:30:32):

Now. It's about me and this artist. It has nothing to do with the outside. It's like, so it helps me to grow my confidence and be like, yo, I got this. I got this. I'm about to smash. I'm about to go in, and I really do believe that. And I go in there and I just swing for the fucking fences as hard as I can. And same thing happened with I prevail and I'll tell my wife this, I'll be planning and doing pre-production before they even come. They have no idea. I told my wife, I was like, I'm going to do this album. And I had one writing session. I had three days actually with the band at this point. We wrote two songs in three days, and the first song was Hurricane, which was their first number one ever in mind. So the first song we ever wrote in one day was Hurricane. Now obviously producing it took way longer, but the bulk of the song was created one day, the hook, the chorus, the whole intro, the whole first minute and a half of the song. And then the next day we wrote Bow Down, which got its own Grammy nomination. That song got nominated for best metal performance or whatever. But those were back to back. And I think truly that's a result of me going in going, there is no alternative but the best thing I've ever done.

Speaker 1 (00:31:34):

So that's how you deal with the pressure is by kind of just saying, fuck it and jumping in.

Speaker 2 (00:31:40):

Think of the worst possible scenario, right? What's the worst decision point as a person you could be in, let's say it's a gun to your head scenario. Okay? Is getting scared really going to help the scenario?

Speaker 1 (00:31:49):

No.

Speaker 2 (00:31:50):

No. I mean, if you're asking yourself no, what's going to help is action. And I think for a lot of my life I operated on this emotional plane where emotions don't get me wrong, I'm very artistic, obviously I'm very in touch, but the ability to pick them up and put them down is a superpower too.

Speaker 1 (00:32:06):

Or to channel the right ones.

Speaker 2 (00:32:08):

Yes. Oh my God. And live in them and stew in it more than anyone I know can sit in an uncomfortable conversation and just stew in it and just not care. There's a Tim Ferriss quote, I'm paraphrasing a little bit, but he's like, you can judge a person's trajectory by the amount of uncomfortable conversations they're willing to have. And that's been big in my career because sometimes it's uncomfortable conversations with an artist like, look, this thing that you love, I feel strongly enough to tell you that I don't think it's great. I think we can build on it. I think it can be better. And I don't want to, you're talking about someone's art, you're talking about, you're writing songs about people that passed away. You're treading on really touchy ground. So the way you approach this with tact means everything. But I think the wrong answer is to say nothing,

Speaker 1 (00:32:50):

But you have to do it. Not even in dealing with artists or music just in business. Some of the best things that have ever happened to me in my trajectory have been because I have approached people. I work with some very uncomfortable stuff, and we've talked about it,

Speaker 2 (00:33:10):

And it sort of in your mind, had to be done. I mean, it's just

Speaker 1 (00:33:14):

Had to, and again, it could have gone very bad. I could have been told to go fuck myself and everything could have blown up.

Speaker 2 (00:33:23):

Are we talking gun on the table here

Speaker 1 (00:33:24):

We are talking gun on the table, and my partners can confirm that we've had some intense pivot points, which were the right move. But to actually bring those conversations up, it's fucking scary. But without doing that, we wouldn't be where we are straight up. We would not be where we are.

Speaker 2 (00:33:45):

Think about how many people are right now. Even people listening right now are held back because of fear. Fear pretty much is everything. It's like no matter what it is, no matter what you think, you might not even be aware of it. But what's holding you back can be boiled down to you being scared of something that probably doesn't ultimately deserve your energy of being scared. You're going to reach these pinch points in your life that I think you have an opportunity to stay right where you are and not grow, and nothing changes, and your life stays exactly the same, which is not what you want. Or you step up and you allow yourself to be uncomfortable and you do grow and you do change, and your life gets better. I mean, a lot of life can be boiled down to that. I'm sort of the king of that dude. I love. I can see that in you too. I could tell that you and I could have some amazing discussions because I don't know, we don't burden ourselves, let's say with the stuff that doesn't serve us in this.

Speaker 1 (00:34:38):

Try not to

Speaker 2 (00:34:39):

In an uncomfortable conversation. Yeah, yeah. You try not to, but you automatically are better off than the average person who's giving it no effort.

Speaker 1 (00:34:45):

Oh, I mean, you have to do this stuff. Do you follow Will Smyth's YouTube at all?

Speaker 2 (00:34:50):

A little bit. I mean, I love what he's about. I love it.

Speaker 1 (00:34:52):

He talks a lot about this kind of stuff on his YouTube, and I believe in one of 'em, he was asked what his biggest motivator is or the biggest secret to success, that sort of question. I'm paraphrasing too. And he said fear.

Speaker 2 (00:35:09):

I think that's Gary v's. Also.

Speaker 1 (00:35:11):

Well, not fear, as in you get the gun to your head and you start freaking out. But more as in realizing this could all go bad

Speaker 2 (00:35:20):

One day you're going to die.

Speaker 1 (00:35:21):

Yeah, I have to do the hard thing. I have to make this happen.

Speaker 2 (00:35:25):

I love that. That does work. It creates an urgency to it. Yeah. Gary v said the same thing where he was like, look, all the business I have all the money, I have all this stuff. It means nothing as soon as a loved one is in the hospital, you know what I mean? And he's like, that fear is my motivator. He is like, we don't have time to waste. You know what I mean? It's like you have to do what you feel is right when you feel it's right. You just have to do those things.

Speaker 1 (00:35:47):

So sounds to me when you got your first big shot, and I'm sure that it probably is this way now, fear or no fear, when you're in there, you're just doing your thing.

Speaker 2 (00:36:00):

Yeah. This is where I think I vary from the average person because there's also a side of me that's in a very friendly way that's highly competitive, not in a fuck you. I'm the type of way I like to compete with myself. So that takes over when I'm in the room, I go in knowing what you said, the pressure of this has to be, I've staked it on this, so I have to come through. Well, as soon as I'm in the room, I'm like, let's blow minds.

Speaker 1 (00:36:33):

But that is you doing your thing. That's what I mean. That is you doing it.

Speaker 2 (00:36:37):

Okay, fair. So 2020 was crazy for a lot of people. For me, it was really transformative. I put a lot of energy into discovering who I am as this. I'm becoming more a doll all the time. What do I want out of life? What do I want out of my career? I'm the opposite. I'm the person who loves to plan. I love to put things on paper. I do it every weekday at one. I mean, I could get into this shit. I have all these weird things that I do. A lot of those tough conversations were with myself and I had to accept my flaws or things that maybe I wish I could change or I don't like about myself. I had to accept them. What's a dumb example? I know that I'm superficial. I accepted that. I was like, I love nice clothes. I love, I shouldn't, it's stupid.

(00:37:17):

It means nothing, but it's just who I am. And when you start to accept those things that you're like, I don't know why I'm like this, but I don't need a reason. It's just how I am. And I did that. I just like it. I did that with my entire, as much of my personality as I could including, and most importantly, my shitty qualities and my flaws and why am I like that? And just trying to accept it. I realized that I not like, I expect a lot of myself. Everyone expects a lot of themselves. I aim to be, my goal going into this is that I want to be one of the best to ever do it. That's what I say. That's what I tell bands. And I don't think I should be punished, and I don't think I should be ridiculed. I don't think anyone should for that because I'm not talking about anyone else but myself.

(00:37:58):

I'm talking about my relationship between me and the craft of making music. You know what I mean? I'm not talking about I think I'm better than this producer, or I think I'm the God's gift. It's nothing like that. It's that look finite amount of time on this earth. When I'm done, when I walk away from this career, I want people to be like, that motherfucker did it. That guy did some shit. He made some bangers. I know I'm not the only producer and I won't be the last. I just want to be one of the big ones. I want people to look at Tyler and be like, undisputably dude knew what he was doing. Dude had something. You know what I mean? I don't want people to be greatest of all time this dude's. I'm not trying to have a Kanye type attitude. I'm trying to say again, if I'm not trying my best, then what am I doing?

(00:38:39):

And I think that is where my competitiveness comes from. But it's always like with this new I Prevail album, my goal is that every rock band hears it and then they go, they go, alright, we've got to have a band meeting. And they go have a bad meeting. They go, alright, we got to change our sound. We got to change the way we're doing everything because of what Tyler and I prevail did on this album. It's like that's the type of bar I'm setting for myself. And whether or not I reach it, I don't know. But if I'm not trying, I don't get what the point is. It's like I'm here to win. I'm here to play for keeps. That isn't to say that I'm here to make someone else lose or I'm here to talk shit about. There's so many good bands out there. You guys obviously I wish I could produce 'em all, but I'm slow. I do one or two records a year. You know what I mean? It's really slow.

Speaker 1 (00:39:25):

So you said you don't think you should be ridiculed about this, and I think that that's kind of a really important point. I think a lot of people are afraid to admit what they want in life because they're afraid of getting ridiculed.

Speaker 2 (00:39:41):

And that's my 2020. My 2020 was like, shit's changing, man. I'm just hearing my house with my wife. Life's good. Don't get me wrong. I'm literally in, we bought our house in 2020 in January before everything happened, and luckily things are all good.

Speaker 1 (00:39:55):

I'm sure it looks nice on the inside.

Speaker 2 (00:39:56):

Thanks. The studio is dope. You'd love it.

Speaker 1 (00:39:59):

Yeah, she's good with that shit.

Speaker 2 (00:40:01):

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, you would love it. You'd love it. Yeah. And you could explain, but my wife, shout out Ken, she's the best. But yeah, she's an interior designer and has also designed some stuff for Al.

Speaker 1 (00:40:13):

Yeah, she does a great job. And Joey too,

Speaker 2 (00:40:16):

She would never want me to brag about her, but she's so good, man. She's worked on huge projects. When she was at Tangram, she worked, she did the new Netflix building that's in Hollywood and stuff. She did a couple floors of that. She's done award-winning. Like Frank Gary, who, he's one of the most famous living architects right now. She's designed stuff and been to awards and been nominated for awards because of, she designed things that he built, but day in and day out, most of it isn't that exciting to her. You know what I mean? But she would never tell people that. But I'm just sweet brag. I love my wife and she's so good.

Speaker 1 (00:40:50):

Yeah, I had no idea. That's awesome. And I'm not surprised.

Speaker 2 (00:40:53):

She'll never talk about herself like that, but I wish that she could in a way. But again, it's like I don't think she should be ridiculed for that either. It's like, I think I'm in this mode where I'm like, yo, can we just celebrate? Can we just be happy for each other for a change? Can we just, you know what I mean? Look at all those plaques behind you, dude. That's what I'm about. I want everyone to have that many plaques behind them. Why not

Speaker 1 (00:41:14):

Want to know what's funny? She'll tell you, I just asked her to help me lay out the rest. There's

Speaker 2 (00:41:19):

About, oh, say, guys.

Speaker 1 (00:41:20):

Yeah, there's 18 more coming.

Speaker 2 (00:41:22):

Oh my God, dude.

Speaker 1 (00:41:24):

Yeah. It took me a long time to get comfortable with doing something like that. For the longest time, that ridicule idea was in my head. I was like, that's cheesy. I'm not that kind of person.

Speaker 3 (00:41:37):

And

Speaker 1 (00:41:37):

Then one day I was like, you know what? Let's see what happens if I acknowledge my own career. And I have,

Speaker 2 (00:41:46):

Dude, what's funny, Kim said that to me in different words. She said, how many songs do you have to do before you just accept that you're a guy who does songs? And I was like, because

Speaker 1 (00:41:56):

That's a good question

Speaker 2 (00:41:56):

To rewind it, right? Because I'm a guy in a band. I'm just recording my friends in bands. Then you fast forward a few years and I'm doing big shit, but I still feel like a guy who's just recording bands. And she's like, you're a producer, man. And I'm like, no, no, it's not like that. It's just like, I'm just making songs.

Speaker 1 (00:42:13):

Yeah, it is.

Speaker 2 (00:42:13):

And she's like, no, it is. Yeah. She's like, accept it. And then I had that same epiphany with the Grammys. It wasn't the nominations or anything. It was the idea that, and it wasn't even the validation that comes from that. It's like, I remember that happened, and I remember I didn't put anything about being Grammy nominated in my bio or anything like that until the day of the Grammys, because I felt like such a douche bag putting,

Speaker 1 (00:42:39):

It's weird.

Speaker 2 (00:42:40):

But then the day of the Grammys, I was like, wait a second.

Speaker 1 (00:42:43):

You did it.

Speaker 2 (00:42:43):

I did it. Can I just enjoy the fucking thing for one second? You know what I mean? And so Kim was finally just enjoy one day of your work. Just enjoy it. Please, for my sake, can we just go to the Grammys and be awesome? And I was like, you're so right.

Speaker 1 (00:42:58):

It's funny, man, with two of those plaques right there. I didn't go to receive them, Joey and Joel did because I was like, that's not me.

Speaker 2 (00:43:08):

But it is though. It's so interesting. You should have received it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:43:11):

I mean, I got it. They're up there.

Speaker 2 (00:43:13):

Yeah, you've come to terms with it. I you,

Speaker 1 (00:43:15):

I came to terms with it, but they posted pictures of themselves on stage receiving it, and I just didn't want to go.

Speaker 2 (00:43:22):

You just felt like, that's not my vibe or whatever.

Speaker 1 (00:43:24):

That's not my vibe. But then I decided that without becoming a douche bag about it, what would it do for me psychologically to just come to terms with this stuff and accept it? Just accept this is reality. The reason I want to do that or wanted to do that was because I still feel exactly the same way I did before anything went, which I think is a good thing. To a degree, you should always be hungry. You should always want more.

Speaker 2 (00:43:53):

Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (00:43:53):

But at the same time, kind of got to acknowledge what you have done. And I don't mean it in a lame hashtag gratitude sort of way, but I mean for your own mental health,

Speaker 2 (00:44:06):

It's just a fact. Ignoring it is lying is just false. Exactly. It's just false. Yeah. The fact is you won those awards, you have those plaques, you earned it. And as much as you want to be like, no, I'm not. I didn't earn it. No, no, it's just me. I'm just, Hey, I'm just, and that was me and Kim would just, and anyways, what's funny is I don't want to talk shit and I won't say who, but when those nominations came out, there are two other producers who took credit for it who are not producers, and they wrote on a song on the album. And that's fair. And I think that, I'm not trying to take work away from anyone, but I saw them posting that they were Grammy nominated producers. And you have to understand they have it on their website in a way that implies that they did it without saying that they did it. And I saw that and I was like, oh, I don't want to look like that. So I never put it in my bio. You know what I mean? I was like, they're the one. They're saying Grammy nom. They couldn't wait. It's like it got announced 30 seconds ago and they already had a graphic. And I'm like, I produced it the entire thing. I produced a hundred percent of it.

Speaker 1 (00:45:11):

It's funny you say that because one of the reasons that I've been weird about that was because somebody falsely accused me of doing that many years ago.

Speaker 2 (00:45:21):

Interesting. Yeah. How did you handle it? By

Speaker 1 (00:45:23):

Never posting any about anything that I worked on.

Speaker 2 (00:45:26):

Yeah. Yeah. My first thought was, okay, well I'll just never talk about it. I don't want to deal with it or answer it.

Speaker 1 (00:45:32):

That's why none of the records I've worked on are on any of my social media pretty much is because I didn't want that the way I figured it was. I've done so much other shit in my life at this point before and after. Just let that shit go.

Speaker 2 (00:45:50):

It is a shame that you couldn't have owned it in the moment though young. You ever look back at young you and be like, you should have just owned it, man.

Speaker 1 (00:45:58):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:45:58):

Good advice for people listening. I'm just saying if something good happens to you, don't make it who you are. I don't go like, what's up? I'm Tyler to Tom Grammy Knot, whatever, man, whatever. I think it's important to recognize that you did it, that you earned it.

Speaker 1 (00:46:15):

At the same time, it didn't hold me back at all to not put that stuff up there.

Speaker 3 (00:46:20):

So

Speaker 1 (00:46:20):

That's also the thing. People go nuts about credits, right? They go nuts. And my philosophy has always been the right people will always know. And if you keep doing good work, for the most part, you're going to keep on progressing because people That's

Speaker 2 (00:46:36):

So true

Speaker 1 (00:46:37):

Will know. So even if there's some situations where some people take your credits or they say that you didn't actually do what you did or anything like that, it shouldn't hurt you. If you keep actually doing good stuff in this world, that stuff becomes part of the rear view mirror and your trajectory will continue if you don't let that define you. And now many, many years later, those records are going up on that wall. But that experience definitely made me feel really weird about taking credit for stuff because I just didn't want to.

Speaker 2 (00:47:11):

It's weird.

Speaker 1 (00:47:12):

I just didn't want that kind of shit in my life. Then you start thinking, what if they're right and you start going through all these weird head games and stuff? It's like, no, they're not right.

Speaker 2 (00:47:27):

I can say so many things to what you just said. If I were to sum up the mantra or the lesson of our talk so far, I would say anyone listening, don't be afraid. I guess maybe even just be willing to accept and own your accomplishments. I always tell people to celebrate. That's me saying it in my own words, but I'm always like, yo, you need to celebrate all along the way. No big thing.

Speaker 1 (00:47:47):

Explain that to me. Help me with that because terrible at that.

Speaker 2 (00:47:51):

So what you were saying reminded me of this story. I saw an interview, I think it was like Rolling Stone or something with John Mayer, but he said the same story where he was like, what's weird is you start out and you play for three people and then three 30 and then 300, and you think when you get to 3000 it's going to be different. You get 3000. Then when you think you get to 30,000, it's going to be different and you get to 30,000. He's like, but you know what you realize is what you said Al is you're still the same person. You're still, you just all of your bullshit, all of your normal, nothing has actually changed. And he said that was a big moment for him and led him down the path that you talked about, which led him to not trying to be hashtag gratitude either, but just like it is what it is.

(00:48:33):

It's just that's your life now. And I think that's why 2020 was so easy for me to reflect. I had a lot of changes at the beginning prior to all of the lockdown. So I had bought the house. We had moved into something brand new. Everything was new. My surroundings were new, the world changed. We had a roommate up until then and our roommate left out. So it was just Kim and I back how it used to be because LA is expensive. So we had Jake who was in danger, kids with me, one of my best friends, and he was our roommate, but he moved out, moved in with his girl. So all these life changes and it leads you down that path of like, okay, well who am I? What do I want out of this? I personally landed on a lot of what you said, a lot of healthy things. I started accepting who I am. I started accepting who I'm not. Okay. Yeah. I got Grammy nominations. It's not going to define me. It's not really going to, I'm only bringing it up now because of the podcast, but I would never walk into a room and be like, this is who I am. Because the truth is, as soon as it happens, it's old news. You know what I mean? It's like, well, I did that last year. I got to do something this year.

Speaker 1 (00:49:35):

Well, there's a difference between this is who I am versus this is part of my history.

Speaker 2 (00:49:40):

Yeah. I'm not done yet. You know what I mean? I'm like, dude, don't get me wrong. Fucking so cool dude. Are you kidding me? Are you kidding me? However, it affected my life in every way and in no way at all. You know what I mean? It's so hard to explain, but it's just a thing that I now, it's a fact that I just carry with me. That's the biggest difference I think in my life, is that I carry with me. Oh yeah. Well, I do have that. You know what I mean? But I earned it still. And I think that I remember being on tour at Danger Kids and being in our van, and I remember when August Burns Red got nominated for a Grammy, and I remember going, whoa, like first of all, hell fucking, yeah, a band from our scene with a presence at the Grammy Awards. You know what I mean? They were nominated. I'm pretty sure it was best medal performance also for their year. And I'm sitting here thinking, I wish our fucking rock scene would get as excited as me right now and all go register to vote and fucking vote those motherfuckers into the winning category like we got to put on for each other, man. We got to help rock. We got to help metal. It's all the same shit. And now more than ever, dude, I

Speaker 1 (00:50:42):

Agree.

Speaker 2 (00:50:42):

Rappers are starting to really fuck with rockers and rock music and bands pop. People are really starting to mess with. You got MGK turning into Blink 180 2. I'm telling you, rock has always persisted because it does have this diehard fan base. At the end of the day, that won't quit. Everyone who likes Slipknot gets the fucking S tattooed on 'em and their fans for life.

Speaker 1 (00:51:02):

I am still a fan for life.

Speaker 2 (00:51:04):

Exactly, dude. We already did. We already accomplished it. The words of the judge, dude, that shit's amazing. But that's what a rock fan is. People do equal shit. People do equal shit. We're referencing Slipknot songs in this room while I'm working on, I Prevail, dude. Yeah. In any case, that's what a rock fan is. That's you Al. That's me. And hopefully that's you listening. Can we maybe try, honestly, let me say this. I encourage anyone listening, go fucking be excited for your friends and other people when they win the opposite of what you would normally do, whatever, keeping some weird quiet shit in the back of your head, oh, they don't deserve that, blah, blah. Try just for once throwing all that out and just spend a week and just get hyped on shit on the positive shit. And I think you'll notice that there's actually a lot more positive happening around you than you're realizing and you're just not focusing on it.

(00:51:58):

When I choose to see it and I choose to focus on it, it's honestly so easy, man. And I turn believers in everyone around me, the whole I prevail. Guys, the reason this album is going to come out, just watch, pull up this interview when it happens. This album is insane. This album's fucking insane. But the only reason we're able to get it to this point is because we can all really let go and really feel good about each other and about the situation and really understand, and all this sounds like flowery talk. I get it. If it was me listening to this five years ago, not to you, for lack of a better word, you and I are woke. You know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (00:52:31):

Yeah, man, I really do wish that the rock and metal scene word like this as a culture about each other.

Speaker 2 (00:52:39):

I'm not expecting to change it with this podcast, and I'm not the defacto leader of it. Like yeah, everybody love everybody. It's not like that. I'm just saying, let's start here. There's some really fucking good bands out there. Are there not? Can we just talk about that instead of focusing on the things that irritate us about something or I don't know. You know what I mean? Maybe I'm closer to it. I work with such a range of artists. I see the Ronnie Radkey hate and I see the love and I feel like I understand what's deserved and what's completely undeserved. You know what I mean? At the end of the day, the real answer is to just be excited for other people and to do you and move forward. Dude, we could all be doing rock music for a living. You wouldn't believe, man. And by the way, music's trending up. It's trending super up. Rock music should be trending up with it. There needs to be more bands. There needs to be more bands collaborating. There needs to be people supporting each other. It's not rocket science

Speaker 1 (00:53:35):

And we need more MG

Speaker 2 (00:53:36):

Ks. Yeah, but I mean, that's fine. I mean, that's happening. That's happening. You're seeing that begin to happen, which is good.

Speaker 1 (00:53:41):

Oh, yes, I am definitely seeing it. But a good example, and I was just talking about this with somebody, the whole Metallica story concerning the way people hate towards them, Metallica fueled the economy in a big way for heavy music. They are one of the biggest reasons for why heavy music exists is on the map and keeps on going. And so then on a smaller level, bands like Slipknot, disturbed, avenge Sevenfold, they're all economic drivers, and it trickles down. I don't care if you believe in trickle down economics or not, or any of the political stuff. This is an apolitical conversation, but the success of these bands trickles all the way down to shit like black metal and the most extreme genres. All of heavy music gets bigger and survives, stays afloat, keeps going because of bands like these that get all the hate, which is amazing.

Speaker 2 (00:54:43):

They've already accomplished more than anyone could ever fathom, but people are still like, they suck. Listen to the shut up dude. They made your world.

Speaker 1 (00:54:52):

They do more for everybody else than anybody else ever has in this world.

Speaker 2 (00:54:57):

I read the top 10 of the top 10 words that you can say, you can go in anywhere in the world, and what are the top 10 words that you can say, and someone will know what you're talking about. Metallica is in the top 10. It literally crosses all language barriers, number one, to give you an idea of the list of words that they checked. And you can say it in any language anywhere in the world and someone knows what you're saying. Number one is, you know what I mean? Metallica is on the top, 10 is up there with Coca-Cola. Theyre huge in America, but they're huge everywhere. Everywhere. They're this ubiquitous. So you can go in a place where you don't speak a language and say, Metallica, and there's a good chance someone will go. Yeah. You know what I mean? They know what you're saying.

(00:55:36):

Imagine you're sitting at home right now, you're like, I'm going to make a band. Could you imagine making a band where the name of your band is one of the 10 most ubiquitous words ever created? You know what I mean? Come get it. And the fact that they're metal and that they're kind of fucking heavy. I mean, especially for the time, very heavy. I mean, no one had scooped mids until the Black album anyways. No one had room sounds until the Black album. I mean, dude, listen to Kill 'em. All that shit is vicious. It is pure energy. It's awesome.

Speaker 1 (00:56:05):

We need artists like that. There's an argument that maybe artists will never get that big ever again. I don't know if that's true or not, but point being, when there is a success in our world, it really should be celebrated whether or not you're a fan of it.

Speaker 2 (00:56:22):

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:56:23):

I'm not an avenge Sevenfold fan, but who cares? I support the shit out of them

Speaker 2 (00:56:28):

Because they're a guitar and they're kicking ass, and they have a lot of mean, a lot to a lot of people, and they're doing so much even on the selfish way, they're doing a lot for you and me. It's like they are. That's

Speaker 1 (00:56:39):

What I'm saying. They do. I don't listen to their songs, but they're a real band. They can really play. They have fucking awesome guitar solos. They write their own songs. They do everything that elitist metal fans, wish bands would do. These guys do it,

Speaker 2 (00:56:54):

But people will still find a way to be like, that roof is so hokey. Dude, that roof sucks.

Speaker 1 (00:56:59):

I know. It's so dumb.

Speaker 2 (00:57:00):

Yeah, it sucks as they get in their Lamborghini and drive away playing guitar, by the way, for a living

Speaker 1 (00:57:06):

Also, even if they're just a gateway band. So lots of bands get shit for being gateway bands. So isn't it good that they're gateway bands? Yeah, it's a great thing. It's not bad at all.

Speaker 2 (00:57:18):

It's cool. You're saying Avenge Steve, who is the lead guitarist of I Prevail who I'm working with here, his favorite band, and that's changed a lot in recent years, but we talk about Aven now, the way that you are talking about them, where he's like, I'm not really about 'em now, but I cannot ignore how huge they were in my life. And we still reference things like that. You know what I mean? From that band. But it's funny, you would never guess at meeting him, but it's like the band I'm doing right now I'm saying was heavily influenced by certainly the lead guitarist. I mean, his favorite band was a bench, and maybe even still is, but it's not the same for him that it used to be. But it doesn't matter. It's still the same and other ways

Speaker 1 (00:57:54):

Doesn't matter.

Speaker 2 (00:57:55):

It's done. The thing happened. You know what I mean? Metallica happened. You got to acknowledge that.

Speaker 1 (00:58:00):

Yeah, exactly. And we need, again, whether or not it's the same size as Metallica, that's arguable, that could have been a point in history. But we need bands to take those places, and the only way that that'll happen is by people being excited about this kind of genre

Speaker 2 (00:58:20):

And

Speaker 1 (00:58:20):

About the success of bands in this kind of genre.

Speaker 2 (00:58:22):

I'll add one last thing is the reason I encourage anyone listening to do it is because personally, the moment that I started just celebrating life and the little things too, going back to that, because there's never a big thing. You're always waiting for the Grammys, but it isn't like boom Grammys. It was such a slow rev up to that man that it doesn't, you know what I mean? It's like that's why you have to take it, even if it doesn't feel significant. Oh, we booked a show. Oh, we're doing this podcast. Oh, we got take a second and be like, and tell yourself these words in your head. I got this from my wife. My wife said this to me, and I repeat this to myself all the time. I say, this is what you wanted. You know what I mean? I say that in my head every time. So every time I'm like, let's say it like this. Now look, I don't want to be in Michigan. I want to be at home with my wife and stuff, but

Speaker 1 (00:59:08):

Why are you in Michigan?

Speaker 2 (00:59:10):

This is what I wanted. I dreamed as a kid of being a producer, I'm like, maybe I'll even fly all over and I'll be making hit records and what's the kid fantasy? Well, part of that has arrived, and it's more empowering to acknowledge it and to remind yourself that you worked for it and you achieved it and you're here now. And dude, I used to bitch about the stupidest stuff. I would work with artists and I have cats at my house, so they'd be like, oh, we're allergic to cats. So we'd get this big studio in Hollywood, I don't know, name it, whatever, record plant. So I'm driving in and I'm bitching the whole way, or I'm in an Uber and I'm complaining. You know what I mean? I'm like, this is so stupid. We're going here to do something we can just do at my studio just so I can bring it back to my studio and try to make it. And then I get there and I go, damn, this place is

Speaker 1 (00:59:56):

Is awesome.

Speaker 2 (00:59:57):

Got a lot of history. You know what I mean? And they're like, yeah, that's Justin Bieber's room. Skrillex is in there. And I'm sitting here thinking, why am I such a bitch? Why don't I just relax and enjoy things? You know what I mean? And so then I start remind myself, hold on, dude. This is what you dreamed of. You dreamed of maybe even complaining on your way in the Uber to the, but I get there and I go, alright, Tyler, you need to have more gratitude. Not to be lame, but you need to appreciate shit. You need to snap out of it. And I look around and I go, this really actually is what I wanted. I dreamed of you get there. And I remember laughing my ass off. I didn't know that when you got a big studio. I'm just making fun of myself here, calling myself out that it comes with assistance or engineers or runners, staff, staff, staff.

(01:00:43):

It's just general staff. And so I'm getting there and they're all like, what do you want us to do? And I'm sitting here thinking, I don't even know who you are. And I'm like, you're not in the band. I'm just like, I'm so small. Potatoes thinking. And then I started to realize, we do the session. At the end of the session, they hand you these papers and I'm looking at this. I'm like, what is this? And I realized this, this motherfucker's hours and I have to sign it. You know what I mean? I'm the boss and this guy is working here hoping to get to where I'm at. I took this weird ass route and didn't go work my way up in the studio world. I just toured and met bands and produced that way. That was my avenue.

Speaker 1 (01:01:21):

It's surreal. And you do need to take a moment to the way that we were talking about the plaques. It happened. It's reality. It is your reality. I remember, and it's one of those things that's not the deepest thing on earth, but one of my goals was always, I want a career where people are flying me places. And I think it's just because of the way I grew up. People flew my dad places, and

Speaker 2 (01:01:44):

That felt good to you.

Speaker 1 (01:01:47):

It got wired in. And for a long time though, when my band was around, I would fly myself to Nam. I would fly myself to meetings. And that never felt right. It never felt like the goal

Speaker 2 (01:02:03):

What you were searching. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:02:05):

And so then in 2013, I got flown out to do a creative live, and I was a little bitchy about it. I thought it was lame to do online education, and I didn't think it was that cool. But then I was thinking, wait a second, I'm getting flown out to Seattle and put up to do this thing.

Speaker 2 (01:02:24):

And you are the voice, right? You are leading it. You're the boss.

Speaker 1 (01:02:26):

This is for me. Yeah. What the hell is wrong with me?

Speaker 2 (01:02:29):

That's how I felt. Yeah. How did it go? How did it go, obviously?

Speaker 1 (01:02:33):

Well, I mean here

Speaker 2 (01:02:34):

We are. Exactly. That's what I'm saying. I got there and I was like, wait, not only should I not, bitch, I should be going off. I should be making the most of this.

Speaker 1 (01:02:43):

That's what I did. I made the most of it. And here we are. It spawned everything. I've been that way too sometimes on nail the mix trips, going to Sweden to do an oped session.

Speaker 2 (01:02:55):

It sounds so hard, but I know, I know in the moment you like, well, I kind of want to be home.

Speaker 1 (01:02:59):

It's like, God, do I really need to fucking travel again? Like God, and then you're going to be jet lagged and just been traveling every single month for the past three years. This was 2017. And then I'm there and I'm like, what the fuck is wrong with me?

Speaker 2 (01:03:15):

Yeah, life is beautiful.

Speaker 1 (01:03:18):

I'm at Jen's Boren studio. We're doing eth Nail the mix

Speaker 2 (01:03:22):

Your company, right?

Speaker 1 (01:03:23):

Yeah. What the fuck is wrong with me?

Speaker 2 (01:03:25):

You would've not gone kind of, there was a part of you that would've stayed.

Speaker 1 (01:03:28):

There's a part of me that didn't want to go.

Speaker 2 (01:03:30):

And you kind of get mad at that. You're kind of like, oh, that's the wrong attitude. And I think that's the correct way to end to land though, right? You're appreciative. You worked for that.

Speaker 1 (01:03:40):

Oh yeah, totally. I hate that voice in myself anytime that there's something cool to go do.

Speaker 2 (01:03:47):

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:03:48):

I work really, really hard to kill that voice.

Speaker 2 (01:03:52):

This is like what Joey did for me. Joey basically instilled, he taught me how to think critically in terms of a music producer and a mixer and an engineer. But I think that spiraled and echoed into my adult life, like you said, it got wired in and I think I wanted it so aggressively for so long that it just has become a fundamental thing. But I really do think a lot of that came from Joey's leadership and his willingness to not give me the answers and not give me the cheat sheet. He could have been like, yo, here's a session. Save all the presets or whatever. And how far would that have honestly gotten me? I can't use any of that right now today. No,

Speaker 1 (01:04:28):

No. You want to know what's funny about Nail the Mix? So one of the reasons that we release the tracks at the beginning of the month and then have the mix competition, the submissions be before the live stream is because if we were to have the live stream at the beginning and then do the competition, all that would happen is that people would copy the settings and try to do that. And what we've noticed, man, by now, if it was possible to actually clone somebody's mixes, we would've had 10,000 clones. Joey Clones or Will Putney clones or

Speaker 2 (01:05:04):

Tyler Smyth

Speaker 1 (01:05:04):

Clones or whatever, clones, and it doesn't work. And we try to get that through people's heads and they don't always get it. That's why I like talking about this kind of shit also, because look, we don't have a screen up. We don't have a DW up. People aren't going to hear the audio. There's no point in talking about the actual technical side of mixing or production without the audio.

Speaker 2 (01:05:28):

It's better when you can show. Yeah,

Speaker 1 (01:05:30):

It's definitely better. Yeah, exactly. I have a way better platform for that. So with the podcast, try to talk about the other side of things. But yeah, that said, you were talking about figuring out what's just a bad habit and what's just who you are. And I decided that voice that's like, I don't want to do it. That's a bad habit. That's not who I want to be. Maybe it was part of who I am or who I was, but that part is not okay with me.

Speaker 2 (01:06:00):

And it doesn't mean it'll go away necessarily. It means that you're going to develop a system to overcome it.

Speaker 1 (01:06:05):

Yes. It might never go away completely.

Speaker 2 (01:06:08):

Right? Right. But anything, it's hitting the gym, right? No one wants to go to the gym, but every time you go to the gym, you're always like,

Speaker 1 (01:06:13):

Fuck the

Speaker 2 (01:06:14):

Gym. So glad I went or whatever though.

Speaker 1 (01:06:15):

Yeah, that's a perfect example. Because of everything I've gone through with that, a lot of people think that I like working out or something. Dude, I fucking hate working out,

Speaker 3 (01:06:25):

Dude.

Speaker 1 (01:06:26):

Just about every single time I'm going to go to the gym, I've gone through this three hour long conversation in my head trying to get out of going to the gym, and then I just go down there and do it.

Speaker 2 (01:06:37):

I think the truth is more powerful though. I think the lie is that you love going to the gym and that the gym is cool and not you're ignoring that it's hard, but you're like, the gym is awesome. The truth is actually more powerful because you do it anyway. You know what I mean?

Speaker 3 (01:06:51):

Yes.

Speaker 2 (01:06:51):

There's way more power in that. Let me give you an example. I remember getting my first tattoo, and you're at a tattoo shop. These are my homies in my case, but they're covered in tattoos, right? I'm scared. I'm like, oh, it's going to hurt. It's going to hurt. And I'm like, how is it? How's getting tattooed looking for a comforting word for them to be like, they're covered. Right? Them to be like, it's not that bad, man. Once you get going, it's not. What do they say? They say the opposite. They're like, oh man, it hurts. Like fuck every time, dude, it hurts so bad. And I'm like, you never get used it. You're covered it. And they're like, yeah, I know. I sit there in the pain. It's like, that's what you said with the gym. It's like I know people who are jacked, who are super ripped and go to the gym all the time, who hate the gym, and they're my favorite people because I feel like they're not lying to me. They're like, oh, no, I hate the gym. I don't look forward to it at all. But I like being fit and I like feeling good. And therein lies the secret. If you can figure that out with your production, if you can go, I don't know. Maybe it's something simple. I hate punching in vocals this way, or I hate punching in this guitar one note at a time.

Speaker 1 (01:07:50):

I hate editing drums,

Speaker 2 (01:07:52):

But you like the result. You know what I mean? And I think that's more powerful than trying to lie to yourself and be like, look, you're not a kid. We lie to kids all the time. You know what I mean? We lie to, it's easier to be like, I don't want to get into that philosophy, but it's just like the truth is honestly, I think even though it initially sounds colder, it sounds meaner. It's way nicer, actually. And it's way more empowering to me.

Speaker 1 (01:08:18):

What's funny about that? So I have definitely lost some friendships from being too blunt, and there's been times where it's made me afraid to be blunt with people, but my natural wiring is to just say things, not to try to be a dick, but just say things. And sometimes it comes off that way. But I have had several situations with people where they have told me, man, I wanted to punch you in the face when you said this thing. And then one year later they were like, but you were so right. And you saying that caused me to think about it. And then I couldn't stop thinking about it, and then I made this change and everything related to that has been fixed or whatever.

Speaker 2 (01:09:02):

That's amazing.

Speaker 1 (01:09:03):

Yeah, dude, when I say things like that, I'm not saying it because I'm trying to make you feel bad. I'm saying it because I give a fuck the end. It is the truth. You need to hear the truth.

Speaker 2 (01:09:16):

Yeah, man. Sometimes the harder thing is the thing that makes all the difference, right? I mean, that's what you're saying. You said the thing that people literally in the moment, they wanted to rip your head off, but it made all the difference.

Speaker 1 (01:09:28):

And it was not easy for me to say it too. I don't,

Speaker 2 (01:09:31):

I think you deserve credit for that.

Speaker 1 (01:09:32):

Yeah. I don't look forward to telling people the hard things. I know that there's some sociopaths or psychopaths out there who have no feelings about saying, that's not me. It hurts me to say these things. I absolutely just have to. It's the best thing for everybody. However, tact, tact is really, really important. And as a producer you have to have tact because you're dealing with emotional creatures like musicians, right? So let's talk about that for a second. You were talking at the beginning that you feel very comfortable stewing in uncomfortable emotions and conversations. However, we know that bands will not return to producers that make them feel like shit. And different people take the truth in different ways. And so you have to know it's not about the what is the truth, but how is the tact? And that matters big time in your role.

Speaker 2 (01:10:31):

And I think that's my superpower. It's like you said with Neil, the mix, I can now see so clearly all the reasons that no one will ever be me. And that's a very comforting and very,

Speaker 1 (01:10:42):

Besides you.

Speaker 2 (01:10:43):

Besides me. And it's because I see what Joey means. Now. I could give out all my settings. I remember going back to what you said, I remember Joey telling me that story about how he was thinking small minded Joey, back in the day, he's got this sick thing going for him as a producer. Everyone wants to record with him all these metal bands, but he still feels like he is his snare drum or his drum sound or his screen. He feels like, oh my God, as soon as someone learns how to do what I do with drums, I'm fucked. Right? I'm over. And he said he reached this point years later where he ultimately thought about it forever and ended up selling his, I think it was just his snare. It was the first thing he sold by himself. And he said he was fucking terrified.

(01:11:22):

He was like, I thought it might be the end of my career, but I needed the money and I just was in this situation. Or maybe that wasn't it, but something pushed him to this point and he sold it. And he's like, you know what happened? He was like, the stock of Joey Suris went up. You know what I mean? He's, I thought my value as a producer would go down because everyone could do what I could do, but actually I somehow got even more popular. He's like, the more I gave away what I thought were my secrets, the bigger I got, the bigger everyone got. Everyone. It was literally only good outcomes. And that I think was part of what led him on his side with you and URM and everything. I remember that was a light bulb moment for him telling me that, where he was like, I thought giving away my guitar tone would ruin me, and it made me better and it made everyone else better too, and it made me a more important name.

(01:12:09):

And so the tact, right? Joey realized that his superpower wasn't his snare, it was all these other things. So my superpower similarly is like I'm a really good people person. I'm a very good communicator, and I'm good at building an atmosphere in a room that has all the trappings that it needs to have to create the best possible music. And that includes shutting people down sometimes in a way that I think could be mean if it was done poorly. But if you do it through the lens of, look, we are one, we are on the same team. I'm the producer, and I feel like it's my obligation and my duty to step up and be like, this can be better. This is not strong. I know you're tied on this lyric. I know this lyric means this. I think we can keep it, but it needs reworked.

(01:12:52):

I'm always willing to challenge myself too. I'm not the guy that's like, yo, this isn't good enough. I'm the guy that's like, no, let's challenge both of us. They'll always be like, well, that's our challenge. So we'll set up. The challenge is usually harder than it needs to be because we will set all this criteria. Maybe we'll be like, we want a song that's really heavy, but also not like it's got to be heavy in a way that people or that we like and that the fans can understand, but it's also has to be something totally fresh. Do we, I don't want to give away the record, but we had a song that ended up getting cut that is super dope, and you're going to laugh when I say it, but it had this, it was almost like metal mixed with, and this was just me being on, we go on these Dare to Suck tangents where we're like, let's try. It's some weird, crazy shit. And we made a song, dare

Speaker 1 (01:13:36):

To Suck. Awesome, dare

Speaker 2 (01:13:37):

To Suck. Yeah, dare to Suck. We say It all the time. And we made this song that was almost like reggae metal. It had a type of vibe to it, like a upstroke type of thing. And already you're like, okay, that's weird. I would like to hear that. But then we say to each other, okay, well that's our challenge. And then we make that song as hard as we can. And obviously all these developments along the way and all this stuff, but even the idea before we even start is brave and bold. And you know what? We made a chorus and a verse and all this stuff, and it's dope. And I think by most band standards, I think a lot of bands would be stoked to have it, but we just decided it wasn't right for this project right now. But that's how we get to what you will hear still soon.

(01:14:22):

Still. Yeah. What you will hear soon, which is it's going to be everything that you want, just not how you think you're going to get it. I don't want to talk too big, man, but it's like rock and metal, but in a way that you really want to hear it, but you've never heard it. That's all I want. I'm not saying I'm inventing a genre or anything like that. I'm saying that this album will surprise you in all of the right ways. And that's only possible because of the ability to communicate and the ability, these are complex ideas.

Speaker 1 (01:14:48):

And with Dare to Suck though is really deep because you're allowing yourself to surprise yourself. How are you going to surprise a listener if you yourself didn't get surprised first?

Speaker 2 (01:15:02):

Yeah. I'm ruthless with my own shit, man. I'll be playing our song with fresh ears and we'll think it's all good and I'll be playing. I'll be like, and if I just can't shake the feeling that the second verse hits and it's going and it's going, it's going and it's going, and I'll just hit stop and I'll be like, I'm bored right now. Right now I'm bored in the song. We need to change this whole, this is all wrong. And I literally listen that hard and I go, I'm not entertained right here. Nope. And it's like I know that when I'm done to some people, my work is, there's too much, I mean, in a bad way to a lot of people. It is trying way too hard maybe, or I'm trying to poke flaws in it, but I like it and it's my sound and it's what we and the band made together and we want, and that's all that really matters. And I think that

Speaker 1 (01:15:51):

It is what matters.

Speaker 2 (01:15:51):

That is what is going to reward us in the end is that you don't like them because they played the game really well. You like it because they did something that you didn't expect, but it's so welcomed.

Speaker 1 (01:16:04):

That's why I think a band like Muse, for instance, is so special.

Speaker 2 (01:16:08):

Love muse. It's always overkill, dude.

Speaker 1 (01:16:11):

It's always overkill, but it's also all the things you wanted out of a rock band, but not in a way you ever expect,

Speaker 2 (01:16:20):

Not how you think you're going to get it. Yeah,

Speaker 1 (01:16:22):

You didn't think it's going to be with a dude and then doing a back flip and then playing piano

Speaker 2 (01:16:28):

And singing almost exclusively. It's like you don't think of that as rock. Those

Speaker 1 (01:16:35):

A pretty good impression actually.

Speaker 2 (01:16:36):

But I love Muse. I love Muse. I just love rock. But I'm with you. Most people look at Muse and don't see that the way you do and the way I do. I look at Muse and I'm like, this band's heavy as fuck. Yo are tripping. If you don't think this band's heavy, dude, you go see it live and tell me if it's heavy or not. You know what I mean? Just because the recording isn't going, the music can be heavy, man. It can be heavy as hell. You can take from that as a metal

Speaker 1 (01:17:05):

Producer, and it's emotionally heavy too.

Speaker 2 (01:17:07):

And I think we've done a lot of that. I think we've taken a lot of things that I think of as heavy but aren't heavy in the metal sense, and we've started to turn them into

Speaker 1 (01:17:16):

Yeah, it's not cannibal Corpse. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (01:17:18):

But you take an idea, like a muse a you put in a metal song and all of a sudden it's like creepy. And you're like, Ooh, okay. This is something. Personally, my philosophy is I try to, I always say fuck with the listener. That's what I always say. And so that's why I'm always listening to my own stuff and I'll stop and I'll be like, I can predict this. And a lot of times that's okay. Sometimes I'm like, oh, if you know the course is coming good. That's the point. I want you to know the course is coming. Well,

Speaker 1 (01:17:45):

I mean sometimes you built up to the chorus.

Speaker 2 (01:17:47):

Yes, exactly. But sometimes you want that. It's an action movie to me. It's like, oh, twist, turn, change, rise, fall. Right? Action dialogue. There's moments. It's movement based. To me, it's like each section has a goal in mind to me. And if it doesn't accomplish this emotion or get you to that goal, this would all make way more sense if this album was out that I'm working on.

Speaker 1 (01:18:12):

But Oh, that's okay, because I think what we're talking about applies universally.

Speaker 2 (01:18:17):

I think it's a different way of writing a song than trying to come up with the riff first or something. Or like, yo, I have this dope heavy part that goes, or some shit. I'm just making up stuff. If you start with, you can even start with that, but you can still have the mood before you go because your brain automatically goes, okay, drums, okay, well that's the first thing you think of. So what's the second? Let's get creative. Let's get weird.

Speaker 1 (01:18:46):

One thing that I think is where a lot of writers go wrong is say they do start with the riff and they have that first idea. They come up with a riff, and then automatically this drum beat comes like you just said, and for some reason they think, alright, that's the first riff in the song.

Speaker 2 (01:19:05):

They stop challenging themselves right there.

Speaker 1 (01:19:07):

What I've noticed is when you start writing, sometimes those first three things you come up with aren't the song yet.

Speaker 2 (01:19:13):

Definitely not.

Speaker 1 (01:19:14):

The fourth idea you come up with might be the first actual idea in the song.

Speaker 2 (01:19:19):

That's so true. The fourth idea probably is the song. And I know if you're listening, you're thinking, well, all of my ideas always become songs. I was that way for a long time, maybe eight years where everything I made became a song. But it doesn't mean it's great. Where's your bar at? I guess you'd have to ask yourself. That is your bar to make a song. Yeah, dude, I can make a song and this is so hard. I want to bring up comparisons, but I don't want to talk shit about other bands, nothing like that. But to me, there's very palpable examples of this person wrote a song and this person created, this is different. This jumps out of the page on me, right? Because it's unexpected, it's fresh. It feels like a thrill ride. I can't ever predict it.

Speaker 1 (01:20:04):

I don't know if the brain actually functions like a muscle or not, but I do believe that for whatever reason, creativity has to be warmed up much the way that you warm up at the gym or something. So if you equate that to just being an instrumentalist is the first thing you play when you sit down to play the best thing. No, probably it's going to take 15 to 30 minutes for you to get warmed up enough to play your best shit.

Speaker 2 (01:20:29):

The point is, yeah, can you make a song out of it? Yeah, of course.

Speaker 1 (01:20:32):

And maybe lightning strikes and the first idea maybe, but more likely you're going to have to warm up.

Speaker 2 (01:20:38):

It's not rocket science to me that some of the best stuff requires a lot of thought. There's this quote Kim has in her office that's a Leonardo da Vinci quote, and it says, simplicity is the ultimate form of sophistication.

Speaker 1 (01:20:50):

I agree,

Speaker 2 (01:20:51):

And I love that. And it applies so much to obviously a producer life. It reminds you to keep it simple, simple and complicated. Doesn't mean kind of successful and really successful, but at the same time, ultimately I've arrived at, it never hurts. And you can never go wrong with putting in a little bit of planning and a little bit of extra thought. Even though I know that as artists and producers we're taught that inspiration just hits you. It just strikes, but it doesn't mean it doesn't also take effort and you have to mold it.

Speaker 1 (01:21:20):

Okay? So in that myth, part of that is left out. So yes, inspiration does hit and greatness sometimes does happen quickly, but what they're leaving out is that then comes the rest of the work. So you do hear about hit songs that were put together in 15 minutes. We all hear those stories, but we're hearing those stories because hit songs are super fucking rare in the first place. And so a hit song that was written in 15 minutes is a story because it's so fucking rare. It's like winning the lottery or something. You won the creativity. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (01:21:55):

You made Old Town Road. Alright man, you did it. You did it.

Speaker 1 (01:22:00):

Yes, it can happen, but it's super unlikely and not the way things work. Most of the time, even when inspiration does strike and you get some initial stuff, then comes the craft side of it.

Speaker 2 (01:22:12):

And that's the thing I want to challenge you listening. I think I'm better than you at that, but I want you to prove me wrong. I think, again, I sat here and I said it in the beginning, and I'll say it always, I don't think I'm the best. I just know that my stuff is going to end up at least pretty good because I'm just going to sit there until it's pretty good. You know what I mean? Or great.

Speaker 1 (01:22:31):

And

Speaker 2 (01:22:32):

I will outwork you, and this is the stage of the process that you're discussing Al, that most people just blow right by. This is where I'm winning. This is where I'm beating all of you guys listening, like I'm working right here. You've got a great idea, and your development stage is 10% the size of mine. Let's put it like that. I'm always like, Nope. Let's keep going. Let's keep going. But I know I also have a good sense of taste. I think that's fairly developed where I do know when it's there, it's easy to say more, more, more, more, more. I'm not saying that for nothing. I'm saying it because I know it's not done because I know when it is done. So I guess that's the difference,

Speaker 1 (01:23:06):

Which is part of your job. Part of your job is knowing that, because I have noticed that a lot of people never stop and then they end up ruining songs or mixes.

Speaker 2 (01:23:17):

You've heard that quote. They say Art is never finished. It's surrendered.

Speaker 1 (01:23:21):

Yes. Which to a degree is true. But then again, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:23:26):

There's a superpower in finishing things, man.

Speaker 1 (01:23:29):

So I don't know if this is true or not. There was a movie about Jackson Pollock, the artist, where an interviewer asked him, how do you know when you're done with a painting? And he said, how do you know when you're done making love? And I don't know if he actually said that in

Speaker 2 (01:23:44):

Real life. Wow, that's actually an amazing analogy.

Speaker 1 (01:23:47):

It's a great quote. How do you not know?

Speaker 2 (01:23:51):

I'm a part of obviously all these music communities, and there was a post on Reddit the other day that someone gave that was just the headline was like, I don't know how else to say it, but finishing a song is simply orgasmic. And that was literally the word they used. And then in the description, they went on to be all the effort, all the stuff, when it all finally clicks and you just did it, and you just know that you did it. They're like, oh, that feeling. You know what I mean? And it's like, you're so right and then you're done. Yeah, I've never thought of that. I'm going to definitely, that's the best description I've ever heard of how it feels to finish a song.

Speaker 1 (01:24:24):

Dude, I saw that when I was 20, that movie, and that's the thing that stuck with me

Speaker 2 (01:24:28):

From

Speaker 1 (01:24:29):

It. And it

Speaker 2 (01:24:29):

Still with you. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:24:30):

And I don't know if he said it in real life either. I don't know if that was just part of the script or what, but that quote is awesome.

Speaker 2 (01:24:37):

And you guys right now, I know it's easy to be like, you feel like you need a record and you need songs, and you need a video, and you need all this artwork and you need a fan base, and you need people to listen, and you need a platform and you need a way to tour whatever, and it feels overwhelming. You have to find the lightning with the artist, by the way. And it has to be them. It's like they're living with it. It's like you can inject yourself into it because you are in the room. You've earned your spot, but it's their art. So a real good producer will take the things that make the artist great and put it front and center. Think of you ever, I don't know whether you're a fan or not. The first thing came to mind was Maroon five. When I think of Maroon five, I think, God,

Speaker 1 (01:25:17):

They're so good.

Speaker 2 (01:25:18):

I think they're so good. And I think of Adam Levine, I think of him, I think of a lot of things. But one of those is the falsetto, right? And then I don't know if you've ever heard, because he does that Adam Levine falsetto in every song,

Speaker 1 (01:25:29):

Wouldn't you?

Speaker 2 (01:25:29):

Yeah. Well, I mean, dude, if

Speaker 1 (01:25:32):

You were Adam Levine,

Speaker 2 (01:25:33):

Oh my God, yeah. And do you know that song he has Wait. It's like, wait, turn around, turn around. Just wait. Can we work this out? It goes like this, work this out. Just wait. No want to be with you. It does this crazy run into his falsetto. And then he does the whole second half of the chorus, wait, you turn off around all falsetto, beautiful and shit. And I'm like, that's a good producer. The producer took what people already love about Adam Levine enhanced it and put it front and center and then still had all the other things. And whether or not you realize it, that's the mark of a good producer. He's not just trying to make a song. He's trying to make a great song with a great idea that puts the best things about Adam Levine and the best things about the best of the band and the best things about him himself, and the time of year and the way it's being released and who their fan base is.

(01:26:24):

And all these things are considered, man. That's why I assume most of the time that I will beat other people in the metaphorical competition because I'm just so willing to sit there because I fucking love the process. It's not work to me. It's just not done. There's a difference. It's like ask Kim. Kim has said this to me. She's like, you're the only person I know who will work all day on music. And then when you get off work, you'll work on music, other music. You know what I mean? She's like, when I get off work, she's talking about when she worked at the design job at the place, she's like, I want to come home. You know what I mean? My brain is fried. But she's like, you just never stop. Even when you're fried, you finally get that time to work on that other thing and the whole cycle starts over.

(01:27:11):

And she's just like, it's amazing. But knowing that is part of the superpower of being me and being able to leverage that. I know that I'm slow. That sucks. Well, I'm never going to get a client that needs a song fast. I never say never, but you know what I mean? Generally speaking, I'm going to cater to the client who doesn't care how long it takes. They only care that it's really good and that it changes shit. And I'm like, okay, well that's perfect for me. Those ideals align with mine. And then you get in the room and then you hunt the inspo, you get the crazy idea. And maybe it's that simple. Maybe it's what I said before. Maybe you're just trying to mix genres. You're like, yo, let's mix reggae and metal and see what happens. I mean, that wasn't really how it happened.

(01:27:50):

And reggae isn't really an accurate description, but we certainly push ourselves. We certainly sit there and challenge ourselves before we've ever actually put anything really down. Because if the idea is already interesting, I feel like you're winning. You know what I mean? But absolutely, if it's just a riff, if it's just a riff, okay, well, you got a challenge now. Now your challenge is, and like I said, we always say this, the challenge is you got to make me love the riff that can be done. I know tons of songs with dope riffs and I love 'em.

Speaker 1 (01:28:16):

Dude, there are some great riffs out there,

Speaker 2 (01:28:18):

And I know a lot more songs with riffs that I'm like, okay, it's a riff. But think of fucking Metallica. I'm just saying, if you think of the Black album and you think of Inner Sandman, that's a riff. I'm not saying everything has to be inner Sandman. There's plenty of room for more riffs. But I'm just saying, you have to be cognizant of all of your decisions as a producer. So when you decide, okay, nope, the Lightning, we don't have the lightning yet, but we're starting with this riff. Well try to make the lightning come from the riff. Okay, well, you don't get that. Okay, well the riffs not bad. Let's just keep it. We don't have to edit ourselves yet. Let's just move on. I don't edit while I'm writing. Also is another thing. Maybe I should have said those are two different head spaces in my brain. I'd rather make a song that's six minutes long and then edit it down to three minutes.

Speaker 1 (01:29:02):

Makes sense.

Speaker 2 (01:29:02):

I'm just like, Nope, I don't care. The verse feels like it has to be this long. And then later with a fresh brain and through context, I'll be like, oh no, we can cut that in half. We can cut this out. But not until I know

Speaker 1 (01:29:12):

Something you said earlier is that you'll sit there and you'll listen until you're bored. One of my earliest mentors told me to do that, to listen over time, because you don't always know if something's cool, if you just listen to the part before it going into it. You got to know how it happens over time.

Speaker 2 (01:29:30):

And sometimes you have to be driving, sometimes you have to be looking. You have to be somewhere else in your life. You have to be on an airplane looking out the window and you go, okay, wait. Now I'm actually hearing this. Not as a producer, but as a fan. And that's when you can make some real spicy surgical changes that make the whole thing.

Speaker 1 (01:29:48):

Yeah, that's when the edits make sense.

Speaker 2 (01:29:50):

I mean, bow Down for example, didn't always have a cut in it. The riff, and I don't even know if you're familiar with this song, but the big hook is get on your knees and bow down is what it does. But it pauses there and it pauses every time. That's like the hook of the song. But the riff used to just go, but I added a pause. That's how the song starts. And then when it ends on the chorus, God, it hits so hard. Right?

Speaker 3 (01:30:19):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:30:20):

And that wasn't always like that. That only happened because I could listen to it, not as a producer, but as a fan. Because as a producer, there's always a part of your brain that's trying to finish the song. You're like, well, that part's done because it's already recorded. The riffs already there. But as a listener, I'm thinking, no, no, no, no. I don't care about work. What excites you? What makes you go hold your breath? You know what I mean? This song, it is so cool. So many reaction videos, and sometimes the people will pause it, and I know reactors are, some of 'em are just being really extra animated or whatever. But I always appreciate when a lot of 'em more than could be Pure Chance, have stopped and gone, dude, my heart is like the intensity just goes up in the song. You think it's at a hundred, but it will keep going.

Speaker 1 (01:31:07):

I just heard it. It does, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:31:08):

And they'll stop. And I don't know if you hear what the second verse does, but it just changes. If you let it keep playing from where you're at, you'll be like, oh my God, dude, it just doesn't stop.

Speaker 1 (01:31:17):

Yeah, that's sick.

Speaker 2 (01:31:17):

That's a second verse, dude. That's a verse. You know what I mean? That's a dope verse. And you get to the end and the breakdowns are crazier and crazier and crazier, and it just never stops surprising you. And it never stops every corner. You're already satisfied. But it does it again, and it does again. And dude, we put, it's not rocket science. We put a ton of work into that song. That's all it is. We just sat there and we were like, this is boring now. Alright, well let's make it not boring. Let's make this part exciting. Let's still a song at the end of the day. I mean, but it's pretty interesting for a rock song, it does something that a lot of songs don't do. And I don't know how to put it into words, but I seek it all the time.

Speaker 1 (01:31:57):

So how do you know when it's done?

Speaker 2 (01:31:58):

I mean, how do you know when you're done making love? How? Yeah, so this is a good point to ask this question. We're working on their album now, and we've got so many songs. I mean, this album could easily be maybe 16 Sure Things. And it probably won't even be that many. It'll probably be a lot less. And that's after we've already cut some. But these are ones that we already literally have recorded right now, and one of them we know is the first track, much like Bow Down. We knew when we made that song as we're going along, we're like, this is the welcome to our new sound track. You know what I mean? This is like, nah, we're not the band you thought we were to everybody who doubted get on your knees and bow down. You know what I mean? It's like a very victorious, we could have phoned it in. We could have become this mainstream butt rock, try to make radio hits. Fuck that. You know what I mean? Bow Down. That song is the antithesis of a radio song in a lot of ways. Although ironically got played on Octane a Lot, which is cool, but it wasn't trying to be a hit it. Yeah, I want the big chorus. I love Pop Sensibility,

Speaker 1 (01:32:58):

Just trying to make a statement.

Speaker 2 (01:32:59):

But yeah, I wouldn't put fuck this and have two minutes of screaming if I was trying to be on the radio. I'm not an idiot. I didn't care. I wanted to make the sickest fucking metal song with the dopest style, not like the best one ever. Just some dope shit where people look at it and they go, I prevail is sick. Tyler is sick. This is a dope vibe. So we're at that stage now on the new album, and for the first time, I can say with confidence that we know what the first song is. And also I feel strongly for the first time that it is the first song. And honestly, I even said this to Kim last night. I was sitting there saying, there was a big moment where I played the unfinished version of Bow Down for Joey in Warren Hewitt's studio.

(01:33:37):

He's the only person who heard it before it was done, and he was completely blown away. And he said some of the kindest things I won't repeat here that he's ever said to me, but it was very much he was hyped on life. He looked at it like, I am your mentor. You are my protege, and to watch you win is for me to win. You know what I mean? He heard that and he was like, it was a win for him too, which is how I wish the whole world felt. I wish all bands felt that way when their friends were successful. Such a healthy way to think at it. And I don't think it's a mystery that you and Joey are both as successful as you are and have that type of, it's like a mantra almost that you live by. It's like you choose to be happy for others because,

Speaker 1 (01:34:17):

Well, I got it from the CEO of Creative Live. Actually, his quote, don't hate congratulate. He said that at a point where I was getting a ton of hate for doing Creative Live and

Speaker 2 (01:34:29):

So weird.

Speaker 1 (01:34:30):

I know, I agree. And then I was thinking, I want to be more like that, but I was already naturally happy for people that were doing well. So that's not to say not competitive.

Speaker 2 (01:34:40):

No, I'm competitive as fuck. But again, it's a friendly game to me, right? I want to be beat. I want someone to come out. I love the new Bring Me the Rising Album. You know what I mean? That shit's crazy. I look at it not as a competition. I look at it like, fuck yeah, someone else is still going in for blood. You know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (01:34:55):

It's great.

Speaker 2 (01:34:55):

Yeah. I don't want people to kind of make a rock song. I want some shit with teeth, some personality, some attitude. And when I see other people doing it, I get stoked. I did this falling inverse track. That's all orchestra. There's no band in it, there's no drums in it. It's all strings. It's like we went and recorded a lot of it real live at East West actually, and we got the fucking A room and everything and recorded, I'm talking like strings Orchestra during COVID. We had to do it in a way where it was 10 people at a time all spread out. We had to sanitize the stations. No one cares about that when they hear the song. But at this stage of my life, I'm leaning into this and I'm enjoying the process and I'm like, look, we have a budget. We have a studio, we have players.

(01:35:37):

Let's go big. Let's go crazy. And we did this whole thing and I thought it was so cool. Among the song came out, the video came out, it's awesome. It's like six minutes long. All orchestra, not a hit. You know what I mean? Just not a pop hit. However, undeniable artistry, you know what I mean? It serves a different purpose. It elevates Ronnie. It shows off how great of a writer is, how great of a singer he is. And more than that, I thought it was cool to see other people popping out, like other artists. I saw Jordan from Bring Me Reply to it and he said all caps. He was like, this period is period. Awesome. Period in all caps. You know what I mean? It shouldn't be, they put out their song. Okay, we're both making aggressive rock songs. We're not really competing.

(01:36:21):

That's why I say friendly competition. I'm a fan of their band. How could I possibly be a fan of both if we're competing? You know what I mean? Fans are fans of both bands. They don't pick one rock band and say fuck all the others. The competition with me is very friendly in the sense that Jordan I know produces a ton of the bring me stuff and he's so fucking good. And I want there to be more Jordans in the world. I want there to be more people that go off on their craft. They're not kind of trying to make a statement. They're trying to be really trying to grab attention. You know what I mean? I don't know. This shit just runs really deep with me, man. I'm not interested in just making a rock song. And I'm very fortunate to have gotten to a point where not only do I have the artists that share my vision, but the budgets are there so that we can take our time. And I know you're listening. You're like, I don't have budgets. I don't have East, west studios. I don't have fucking, neither did I, man. But it's just that.

Speaker 1 (01:37:12):

Yeah, but you did it before you had budgets too.

Speaker 2 (01:37:15):

I did it before. That's the point. I never stopped stretching. It's just now I got toys and I'm like, yo, let's play with toys. If Epitaph's going to drop money on the A room at some studio, this was not my choice. However, when it became said, I was like, okay, well okay, as the producer here, let me tell you how big we can go if you're trying to, I thought we're doing this in-house kind of thing. And I made a little comment where I was like, I mean, we could go really big with this. And Brett, who's awesome at Epit and obviously loves me now, but he's like, yeah, mean he'll support anything. And I don't know if you guys know this, but Epitaph I believe is the largest independent label in the world now.

Speaker 1 (01:37:55):

That's what I've heard.

Speaker 2 (01:37:56):

Brett is awesome and he's the guitarist of a bad religion. So he is a rocker at heart. He's like a punk kid, and he's done very well for himself and thereby has no interest in selling the label. That's basically it is that every other label got bought. Nothing wrong with that. Fearless got bought, rises, got bought, all those IESs got bought. Fab was always bigger anyways, more artists and stuff, but he doesn't need to sell, man. He's fine in life. He's invested and made it 10 million times over, but he loves the music and it is great to be, how lucky am I to be in business with people and work with artists that care about the art first and foremost is the point I'm trying to make. But don't let that discourage you because before it was this, it was me in a room and I built this because this is what I sought out. People like this, people like Brett. And inevitably I shine brighter with people like that. I shine brighter when a band will take their time on the album.

Speaker 1 (01:38:49):

So what about back in the days when you did not have access?

Speaker 2 (01:38:54):

I did shit really fast. I mean, I've done shit Joey's way.

Speaker 1 (01:38:57):

Did what you had to do. Basically.

Speaker 2 (01:38:59):

I did the Bless the Fall album in 40 days. Well, I'm just saying that was a song in three days from Scratch, unwritten. I mean, that's not true. They had some stuff written, but a lot of it was no vocals.

Speaker 1 (01:39:09):

I mean like local,

Speaker 2 (01:39:10):

But that's easy because now you're back then not having a time limit local, you have no time limit. Fair

Speaker 1 (01:39:15):

Enough. Enough. Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:39:15):

Okay. Yeah. Your resources are thinner. Your resources are thinner. But I think that now more than ever too, man, creativity, the technology, like dude, you could, I don't think you need real strings either. I think this was me having fun. This is me, but you do need to take your time on the idea, and you do need to make the idea fucking undeniably sick. What is not dope about get on your knees and bow job? You hear that and you're just like, let's fucking go. Yeah. There's nothing not cool about that. You should aim not like cool, maybe cool is the wrong word.

Speaker 1 (01:39:48):

And you don't need a huge studio to come up with that idea. You just need to come up with the idea.

Speaker 2 (01:39:53):

We didn't do that in a big studio. We did that just like this in an Airbnb on a laptop, all of that. Everything you're hearing was done as if I were a local dude. It's only now, and it's only some of my artists that I go to big rooms and stuff. I prevail. We don't do big rooms. If we do, it'd be because I booked it and I told 'em to do it. And you know what I mean? We are going to do some things. I plan on doing real strings and stuff on this. I'm kind of obsessed with it now, and it'll elevate this project in a way. If

Speaker 1 (01:40:20):

You can. Why not

Speaker 2 (01:40:21):

If you can and they will. Dude, I had the top selling album on the parent label. My budget's great on this album, and we haven't used shit. Really. It's just us. I still am that kid. In my mind. I am still that local kid doing it with no money. I'm the guy that programs drums, that programs base. But that's why I think I shine on the production side. It's like I never did grow up having access to the other stuff, but I had access to synths and I had access to sound design, and I've had a weird unique past where I've gotten to work on little tiny things here. And there was a time where for a long time I wanted to be a sound designer for a video game company, and I actively pursued that. So by the time I went into music, I already had this pretty thorough background on sound design,

Speaker 1 (01:41:07):

And I'm sure you went for that as hard as you go for anything else. It

Speaker 2 (01:41:11):

Made sense to build it into my thing. Yeah, well, I'm good at it and people like to do things that they're good at. So when I've got a band, I'm sitting there thinking, how can I show them that I am good? I'll be like, oh, I'll make a crazy fucking impact thing because no local, it's not weird to us. That's not crazy to you listening, but I'm just saying, I played to my strengths. I was like, how can I show these people that I'm the real deal and what do I naturally gravitate towards? Anyways?

Speaker 1 (01:41:38):

So for people listening who obviously we have some people listening who are very far along in their careers, this is not for them. For the people who are starting, maybe they're making a living, but they're not quite there yet. How do you go about discovering your strengths and really understand? It sounds to me like you have a very, very good understanding of that.

Speaker 2 (01:42:02):

More than anyone I know, man, I am so incredibly disciplined. I don't know the vibe I give off. And like I said, I hide the

Speaker 1 (01:42:10):

Sounds to me exactly what it is that you'd bring to a project and you lean into it. Oh

Speaker 3 (01:42:15):

My God, yeah. And I've always

Speaker 1 (01:42:16):

Said, look, I'm not a fan of blues guitar or something, but if you take an example, like BB King for instance, you never heard BB King try to play metal or something or try to play classical guitar. You heard him play blues and what he was good at. You never hear these great artists do the stuff they're not good at. There's a lot of stuff. They're not good at

Speaker 2 (01:42:37):

Most things. We are all as people, not good at most of them. Yeah,

Speaker 1 (01:42:41):

Exactly. What people for is what they're good or great at. There's a lot to learn from that. Just think about any great artist, any great producer that you really love their work. Well, that's because you're checking out the shit they're great at.

Speaker 2 (01:42:58):

Yeah,

Speaker 1 (01:42:58):

Yeah. So how do you discover that

Speaker 2 (01:43:00):

It was the inevitable conclusion of reverse engineering? My goal and my goal was, I don't know how by some stroke of luck or whatever, but I decided early on that my mission is I want to be one of the best. To me. I want to be able to me personally, not what anyone else thinks. I don't care. But when I'm done, I want to be able to look back and be like, yo, I did that all the way. I gave it a hundred percent and I took it to the max. When you start to trickle that down to finding your strengths starts to make sense at that point because you want to go into something and be strong. Well, the more I research it, I learned that people do what they're good at. And that means if you think big picture, that means some people talk a lot and they don't even realize that they talk a lot, but they're good at talking and maybe not even on a conscious level, they've accepted that they're good at communicating. But for whatever it is, it's like there's a lot of different words to describe this. I'm in the middle of rereading the Art of Seduction, which is a little bit controversial. I'm not really getting into that so much, but a lot of the book talks about the practicality of seduction.

Speaker 1 (01:44:05):

His books are great.

Speaker 2 (01:44:07):

I think they're dope. I take 'em for what they are. I take 'em for the fact of it. I'm not saying there's not also a heavy emotional component to conversation.

Speaker 1 (01:44:16):

Robert Green, everybody.

Speaker 2 (01:44:18):

Yeah, Robert Green also, he's famous for the 48 Laws of Power and stuff too, which is another really interesting read

Speaker 1 (01:44:24):

Strategies of War. That one helped me

Speaker 2 (01:44:26):

A lot. I haven't read Strategies of War. I'm rereading artist deduction, and it feels like I'm reading it for the first time. So I'm super into it in a different place in my life where all the words mean something very much more real and present and right now, and so it's really resonating. Whereas back then I was just kind of like, I get it. I get it. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Just going about the practicality of it. People do things they're good at and you are a type of person. Now, whether or not you want to agree with that, it's true. I'm not saying what the criteria are. I'm just saying that you are a way, right? There are things about you that are not the same things about me. So accept that as a fact and know that although conversations, there's obviously a big emotional component to it, but there's also the contrarian side of it.

(01:45:12):

What is the result of it? So lemme give you an example. If I'm getting gas and you come up to me and you're like, yo, can I borrow some money? I have a gas can. I'm just a little bit out of gas, and I'm like, oh, shit. Yeah, of course. Because I'm operating on emotion. So I give you money. Maybe you get gas, maybe you don't. Let's say you walk away and you never fill up the tank. Well, now all of a sudden I'm judging based on the result instead of on the emotion. Those are two different ways of operating as a producer in my opinion. So I am now, I'm very in tune with my emotions, and I'm very able to pick them up and examine them and put 'em back down, which is like, I would argue more mastery of yourself and mastery of the self and emotions and stuff.

(01:45:53):

So you carry that into production. So now I'm able to tiptoe in and out of all these different emotional vibes, but the most important thing is that I am ultimately result motivated. There's almost an inception type art into being a producer, to get someone to sing something the way that you want to sing it. You can tell people what to do, but your album's going to suck, man. You have to make them understand. You have to make them literally swim in it. You know what I mean? It's hard to explain. We recorded, there's a song called Breaking Down, which was a pretty successful on radio on the last Hyper prevail album. It wasn't the biggest, it didn't hit number one, but it was way top 10 for a long time. And by the way, it was never supposed to be good big at all. The strategy for that track was so funny.

(01:46:39):

We were putting it out as the focus track, and as soon as it started declining on radio, we were going to instantly hit him with the real single and hope that it went way up. But what happened was we put that song out and it just lived on the charts for six months. I'm not even kidding. So we never put out the second single because it just kept doing well. That song is funny because we recorded that whole chorus for a whole day, just the chorus we worked on, and the next day I deleted the whole thing because it wasn't good enough. I woke up and I listened to it, and I was like, it doesn't feel like electric. And now when I listen to that chorus, because obviously like I said, the reason I'll win is I will sit here until it's really good.

(01:47:16):

Even if it means doing it three times, I don't give a fuck. And everyone listening thinks that they're that way, but they have no idea. And I say this in a healthy way, in a challenging way, let's be our best selves and let's surprise ourselves. Like you said earlier, I think that's part of it too, is I want to surprise myself. I hear that song now we're working on that I know is the first track, and I'm like, I can't wait for people to hear this shit, man. Are you kidding me? The bands sound like fucking legends. I look like a God on this track, just this track. I'm just very hyped on it. You have to be hyped on your own work, but it wasn't always like that. And to get it to that point requires all the little nuance things that often aren't talked about. Really. It's the idea and it's developing the atmosphere and it's being willing to, I don't know. Yeah, surprise yourself and then celebrate those things along the way. At this point, I just know that I know how to make anything sound good.

Speaker 1 (01:48:07):

This type of superpower is the same thing I hear when I talk to Sini or something or a guy like that. The reason I'm saying this is because I think that it's very important for people listening to take stock of what kind of person they are. Like you said, you are a type of person. So

(01:48:26):

For me, people think I've done all right in my life and I know I have, but basically everything good that's happened for me has been a result of realizing what I am and what I'm not. So originally I wanted to be this fucking sick ass guitar player, and when I was in high school and stuff, I'd practice a lot, a lot, and I got pretty good. Then I started to get into bands with people that are way better than me. No matter what I did, they'd just be better. Then I realized I'm better at writing, but then I'm starting to realize even as the band's going along and we're doing stuff, there's just bands that have better writers. This isn't, and I don't even playing on stage and when I'm on stage, this isn't me. There's something else. But what is it about this that I was good at?

Speaker 2 (01:49:14):

You did? Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:49:16):

I assembled a band with, I found the best musicians, but not just that. I was able to place musicians in other bands really, really well, and I was able to strategize how to get onto Roadrunner and how to get them to sign a baby band with zero history and all this stuff. And then when I was producing, I was like, man, I actually don't enjoy this, but what is it that I do enjoy? Actually, I enjoy being at the top of a project. I like doing stuff that has an impact and so on and so forth. I ended up realizing that my role in life is the kind of thing I do now, which has to do with coordinating things between people, having big visions for projects.

Speaker 2 (01:50:00):

You are, all of the things you just said. You are at the top of huge things. If anything, dude, it's crazy to me because your thirst for your involvement in music feels like mine because I look at you and I see this, I see someone who started on guitar and learned to make music themselves. Then they started making music. You lift people up around you with your craft. You understand that. So then you make a band and then you're making music there, and then that's not enough. So then you start producing and you're doing multiple bands, right? Well, now you literally, among all the other things you do, you run a school that runs the producers that make the bands that make, if anything, you're just going up the, you know what I mean? Pretty soon in my mind, it feels a lot, in a lot of ways, you are producing the producers that produce the music.

Speaker 1 (01:50:51):

That's what it always was though, because even in my band, it was not the kind of band where it's like we go to high school together, we're like, bros. It was more like this guitar player deserves to be famous

Speaker 2 (01:51:05):

Guy. Yeah. That's how I

Speaker 1 (01:51:05):

Feel, man, this guy, this drummer is fucking goddamn unbelievable. More people should know about

Speaker 2 (01:51:11):

Deserve it. Yeah. Oh my

Speaker 1 (01:51:13):

God. Or this guy should join this band than I know of, and so this stuff that I do now was really what I was kind of doing back

Speaker 2 (01:51:21):

Then. You've always had a knack for it, clearly. I mean, like you said, name someone who can get a roadrunner deal with no, from a baby band. For real. Let's go. That's insane.

Speaker 1 (01:51:31):

Had I not ditched the idea of being best guitar player in the world, had I not ditched the idea of being in a band or whatever, had I not ditched the idea of being a producer or all that, who the fuck knows what would happened?

Speaker 2 (01:51:45):

And I don't think your values actually changed. I think it just, they didn change. They shift, right? You still value guitar. It still plays a very prominent role. Just that was your door in.

Speaker 1 (01:51:55):

I mean, we've got Riff Hard, so

Speaker 2 (01:51:57):

Oh, I know. Oh, I know. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:51:59):

Yeah. I still value the shit out of guitar,

Speaker 2 (01:52:02):

But it allowed you to see the bigger picture of who you are and what you have to offer. I mean, that's something people listening could desperately use.

Speaker 1 (01:52:09):

Sounds like you.

Speaker 2 (01:52:09):

Thanks. That's easily the highest compliment and praise I've probably ever been given on any type of podcast or interview thing. So thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:52:18):

Well, you got to know who you are to do this shit,

Speaker 2 (01:52:21):

And I feel like I do. And so that's why your compliment feels so genuine, because you're saying you seem like someone who really is sure and knows themselves very well, and I'm over here thinking I do know myself really well. So I believe when you say that, it makes sense that it would show to someone else who also me knows themselves pretty well and it's showing to you. I think I would argue that you seem to know yourself very well too. Otherwise, how could you speak so freely?

Speaker 1 (01:52:47):

Took a lot of work.

Speaker 2 (01:52:48):

Yeah, right, right. We weren't born this way.

Speaker 1 (01:52:50):

I know what you mean. No, it took a lot of work and it took trying something realizing, no, this isn't me,

Speaker 3 (01:52:56):

But

Speaker 1 (01:52:56):

Going for it really hard. When I was going for guitar, I was going for guitar, I was practicing. The minimum was three hours. It was oftentimes more like 12. There were times when I went to Berkeley, I failed at Berkeley, but I failed at Berkeley because I was in my apartment. I wouldn't leave for three weeks at a time, practicing 12 hours a day. And when I wasn't practicing, I was going to the Berkeley library and taking all the books about how major labels run and reading them. Instead of going to class, I was figuring out how the industry works. And so basically everything I've done, I've gone into with full force, but once I realized this is not me, I have no problem leaving it behind and moving on to the next thing. But it just sounds to me through your path, you've figured out exactly who it is that you are, who it is that you aren't and leaned in. All the people I talk to who have done something amazing in this world have figured that out.

Speaker 2 (01:53:57):

Yeah, I'm seeing that now though too. It's interesting because obviously you've got to speak with a lot more people like this too, and for me, it's like I'm uncovering it of myself, but I'm the only one. I'm less like,

Speaker 1 (01:54:09):

Well, you're the only one who can uncover it for you.

Speaker 2 (01:54:12):

Right? At first, I was less sure of it, right? I was like, I'm starting to don't know how to explain it. But then through certain conversations, I could talk to someone like Joey about parts of it. There are paths of what I'm doing that he hasn't done, but there are a lot of paths that he has done and he's further down and he can you help me out and vouch for me and be that guiding light? And so that was super helpful. I know we keep throwing the word superpower out, but to anyone who's listening, I mean, I can't think of a better word to describe it. I can just, what feels like effortlessly now put out some of the best shit ever, and I'm completely blown away by myself every time, and I don't mean that it is not in a braggy way. It's in a way where I feel like, well, if I can do it, literally anybody can do this. You just have to put in the work. You just have to open your mind a little bit. That's it.

Speaker 1 (01:55:00):

But the thing is, not everybody has it in them to put in that level of work for it, but that's not a bad thing. So I don't have it in me to put in that level of work on a production. Part of that is where I realize that this is not me is I don't have it in me to do the psychological thing with bands, and I don't have it in me to deal with labels as the person getting paid by the label. I don't have it in me to do all these things producers have to do. That's just not who I am. That's who a lot of people I talk to are. But people listening, if they realize that they don't live for production, they don't live for making the best music possible, well, maybe they still are into music. Maybe there is something in music for them, but they should take a long hard look at what that might be. So what it is it that you keep doing in every project you're in? For me, in every project I was, I was always looking at a bigger picture, always looking at doing really big things, always looking how to lift other people up, always finding what they're great at, and finding a way to show that to the world. Like you said, that is exactly what I'm doing now, but this didn't happen by trying to be something, well, I was trying to be something I'm not. I

Speaker 2 (01:56:16):

Know what you mean because I was going to say a complimentary thing really quick, which might help the listener too, is maybe this isn't known, but I never ever decided to be a producer ever. I never decided it. And maybe that deserves to be said based on what you're saying, because I was like, I started off finding out as a kid that I loved music. So inevitably I get a little older. I you chose guitar, I was all about it. Then I start to put together bands years later. Then you start exact same type of thing. Not once did I ever go, man, maybe I could be a producer. By the time I had that conversation, I was already a producer man. You know what I mean? What happened was, and I'm saying this in case you're listening, so that you can detect these patterns in your own life.

(01:57:00):

This is really exciting shit. I'm still not at the point where you're at where I'm still not thinking about what parts of this do I like and what parts of this I, I just know that there's more of it that I like than I don't like, so I'm going to do this thing. So I was just chasing music shit. So I'm in a band, I'm this, and then no one would record my band. So I was like, well, fuck it. I'll just figure it out. It can't be that hard. I just started recording, but it was always just to record myself and my band and make demos. Then one time someone was at my house and I was recording and they were hanging out with someone else. I lived in with a bunch of kids in bands and stuff. Actually, I lived with some of the Prada dudes before they were the Devil Horse Prada, you know what I mean?

(01:57:38):

Or when they were local, the Devil Horse Prada. But we're all just fucking kids in a college town. We're literally partying and eating Chipotle every day. We're not doing anything. We're like, life's good. We're just chilling. But what happened was they had people over there, oh, I'll give you 50 bucks to demo this thing. And at the time, nowhere on the road would hire me, and I just moved into this house and I have now rent that's due, and I was like 50 bucks. It never even crossed my mind that someone would ever give me money to do this. And I was like, yeah, dude. Yeah, for sure. Whatever you need. Yeah, 50 bucks. My rent was maybe 200. You know what I mean? And that was really my only cost. I'm just a kid. I just moved out essentially, and I'm going to college and playing music or whatever.

(01:58:19):

And so I'm like, dude, you mean I could work for four days? And then that's it in mind in my kid brain or whatever. Then I got to where you're at, where I started going, well, what parts of this do I like? Well, I love the song Creating Process. I love the friendships that come with a band. I love the brotherhood and the sisterhood too. We have a girl in our band. I don't mean it like that. I'm just saying I love the connection. I even liked touring. I loved the travel. So basically I loved every aspect of the band, but to me, producing felt like I got to join everyone's band. Do you know what I mean? I was like, I'm in, I prevail. I'm in falling Inverse, or I'm in Bless the Fall or whatever. It's like I felt like I got to be a member of the band, whether you like it or not.

(01:59:03):

I would have the same impact. Were I in the band? I am not saying whether I'm the producer, but I'm saying if I'm in the band, I would be making the same suggestions to make the song better that I am as a producer. And so it's cool. I felt like I was like, this is a way. I found a way to scale and join everyone's band, and then I made Myth, my solo project, which was another outlet for me to be able to work on everything I want to work on, whether or not they're a big name. I don't care about that. I care about what's dope, and I care about my friends. So if I want to work with my friends, I want to work with my friends without them feeling like they owe me a favor or me feeling guilty because they're feeling guilty.

(01:59:45):

I just want to make fucking music, dude. That's what I found out. And so I made Myth, and then here I am, and it's led me on weird things and is continuing to even now, even though nothing has come out in probably six months now, but that alone, that shit, and I have lights to think for that too, because Lights and Kim are the ones that pushed me to make it, because at that point, I did a tour with Dead Mouse where I DJ'ed with lights and the artist lights. She's like a Canadian singer, and we actually ended up doing a whole album together that came out, and I did it under the name Myth as a dj, as an EDM producer. And so EDM production became another scale for me where it's like, well, now I can, not only can I be in everyone's band as Tyler the producer, but as my own music thing. I can make any genre I want and collab with any singer I want. So it's like now I can make unlimited bands. In my mind. It's like I have songs that are really trappy and dub steppy and hard, and then I have songs that are pop as fuck and just amazing pop music. I don't know if you've heard any of it, but you should listen to Dead End. You would like that song.

Speaker 1 (02:00:50):

I will. I'm writing it down.

Speaker 2 (02:00:52):

You'll love the production. It is nothing like my metal production. You'll see a totally other side of me. I think you'll be surprised. Actually,

Speaker 1 (02:00:58):

I just wrote it down. I will check it out after this.

Speaker 2 (02:01:00):

But in any case, I made the same discovery and it had made all the difference in my life because it led me down things to where I am now. You know what I mean? Because now I realize that it's not just being in a band. It's all kinds of facets of music. It's like, I want to be in a band and I want to produce, and by the way, danger Kids, we're going to put our new album out this year. You know what I mean? So I'm still in my band, I'm producing it. I get to tour as a DJ, and I get to produce as a producer, and I get to go a and r for record labels as a label executive, and I'm loving it. I'm loving it all, and I'm just like, how can I do more? How can I love going on URM? You know what I mean? I get to wear the producer hat for the day, but the truth is, the who I am is so much deeper than that. It's like the level is much deeper than producer. It's like I hope that when I'm done rock music went one click in one direction because I was born. You know what I mean? I just want to have my itty bitty 0.1% change on the big scale. You know what I mean? That's what I want, and that motivates me a lot.

Speaker 1 (02:02:04):

So have you always had big goals like that?

Speaker 2 (02:02:09):

I think that's my point was no, that's just in,

Speaker 1 (02:02:12):

Do you think it was in there, but you just didn't realize it?

Speaker 2 (02:02:14):

Yes, exactly. And I guess who I'm talking to right now to discover is if you're listening, I had to discover it. The point was I never decided to be a producer. I just fell into it. You know what I mean? I turned around and I was one, and that's wonderful, and that's a very healthy and a very pure way to find something.

Speaker 1 (02:02:34):

What's important here is if it isn't your thing listening that it's not important for you to make a mark. You just want to make cool shit or whatever. That is totally cool too.

Speaker 2 (02:02:48):

Yeah. Oh, hell yeah, dude, I'm all about that.

Speaker 1 (02:02:51):

I know this one engineer, I mean, he mixes real well. He produces real well, but he loves editing, which is crazy to me, but he finds Zen in it.

Speaker 2 (02:03:02):

It's like meditative maybe. Yeah,

Speaker 1 (02:03:05):

But he's so damn good at it, and so he ends up getting hired by, you're

Speaker 2 (02:03:09):

Going to have to give me this person's name. I always could use a good editor.

Speaker 1 (02:03:13):

Yeah, I will. I'll introduce you guys. He gets hired by so many of the great metal mixers and producers because he's just fucking awesome at it, and I don't think he has the goal of being some mega producer or anything. I mean, well,

Speaker 2 (02:03:29):

He can be a mega editor

Speaker 1 (02:03:31):

Though. He wants to do well, and he wants to mix, and he wants to produce, but I don't think he has these kinds of goals like change the world goals, but he's very much himself and he's very much tapped into what he's amazing at, and that has allowed him to have a great career,

Speaker 2 (02:03:48):

And that's more than fine. That dude has what I want the people to have. I don't want everyone to affect the world. I want everyone to have the same zen in his heart that he has. You know what I mean?

Speaker 3 (02:03:58):

Yes.

Speaker 2 (02:03:59):

He knows that he's right where he's supposed to be. That's how I feel. I know that in my life, I live so much lighter than most people I know. I don't know how else to put it. I'm more lightweight in general in my life because I'm so fortunate to have found what I loved at a young age and then write about it. You know what I mean? I genuinely, in my heart of hearts, at this stage in my life, I may be a different person in 20 years, but I feel like I am right where I want to be doing what I'm supposed to be doing. And a lot of people don't have that. A lot of people, the trouble sleeping at night is feeling like they haven't accomplished enough or they're not far along enough. But I found this before any accomplishment. You know what I mean?

(02:04:40):

Why else would you tour? I've been signed how many times? Well, by the definition of being rich and famous, unsuccessfully. That being said, I've toured the world. I have friends that I will have my entire life and countries everywhere. I've impacted lives, I've seen things. I've done things. I didn't really make money. You know what I mean? I didn't really make that much money from it, not compared to producing or any job. You know what I mean? Where the goal is to make money, but that wasn't my goal. My goal was never to make money. If it was to make money, I would've quit forever ago. That much is obvious, and that can be said about anyone that's done this. So I imagine a lot of people listening feel that way too, and have toward and can relate or know people like that or have given their equivalent to their craft of production. But the magic of finding that out is everything. Dude. I live so lightweight because I don't have those, and I think it allows me to be my best self. It allows me to do my best work.

Speaker 1 (02:05:32):

Absolutely. And how it applies to your career is that that is what will allow you to outwork other people.

Speaker 2 (02:05:39):

Exactly. Exactly. Now you get it, and maybe even the listener gets it too. I know it's so hard to put into words, but that's it. That's why I know that it's not worth freaking out about. What used to calm me down in the past was I would freak out because bills would be coming due, and you're a musician, so you're skating by all the time. But I would always remind myself that I would go, Tyler, you've never not come through. And that was true, and that was enough for me back then. Back then that was enough to be like when the bill was due, I always paid it. Even when I was stressing out and feeling like I wasn't going to be able to pay it, I always found a way to get it done. I got to a point where I was like, I need to not carry so much of this constant fear all the time.

Speaker 3 (02:06:18):

And

Speaker 2 (02:06:19):

So I kept telling myself, Tyler, you've never let yourself down, dude. You've always come through. You've always made it right. Even if it was wrong, you've made it right all the time. You're not going down chill. Yes, it's tight. Yes, it's hard. Yes, you should figure it out, but you don't need to stress. Not yet. You know what I mean? And that ultimately that led me now to just being like, that was the first. It just comes in stages. And then by the end, your shit is, I'm so fucking dialed and disciplined. Man, I can't even put it into words, but you just said it. You just said it is the fact that I'm able to be my best self lets me do all this incredible work I'm talking about with, and I will tell you, it lets me do it effortlessly. Yes, it takes time, and I think it would look like effort, but it's so fucking fun, man. It's not effort. This is who I want to be. This is what I want to be doing. This is not effort. It's in everyone. Everyone listening. It's in you right now. Your goal needs to be figure out who you are so that you can live lighter, and it will impact every facet of your life, not just your work. By the way, your relationships deepen your comfortability. It's like everything. You know what I'm saying too, right? I can tell.

Speaker 1 (02:07:23):

Yeah. And it does not have to be grandiose, so

Speaker 2 (02:07:27):

You're

Speaker 1 (02:07:28):

Actually probably lucky if it's not grandiose.

Speaker 2 (02:07:31):

I agree. I agree. I'm worried that I'm reaching for a thing that won't always be attainable in my life, and I just happen to be in a good spot right now where I am getting number one.

Speaker 1 (02:07:41):

Oh, yeah. Me

Speaker 2 (02:07:42):

And am getting, you know what I mean? Because I worry. I'm trying right now to own myself and be secure with myself, so that should those things go away tomorrow, I didn't get a Grammy no. This year I'm not going to, who cares? I'm never expecting one ever again. I was never expecting one to begin with. And you have to think that way. Otherwise, if you're reaching for grandiose, you're not always going to get, you can't be doing something world changing at all seconds of the day.

Speaker 1 (02:08:05):

No.

Speaker 2 (02:08:06):

Sometimes it's just seconds. Sometimes the day is the day. So I agree, your friend who, but he's editing, but to him it's more than that, and it should be, it's like not only is he finding a zen and a momentum in the process, but he is impacting lots of work.

Speaker 1 (02:08:21):

You know? What else, man? There's some people who I know who their role in life is to just be a family person and to provide,

Speaker 2 (02:08:30):

Honestly, we could use a lot of more of those too,

Speaker 1 (02:08:33):

Which is totally fine. I know that sometimes they will sometimes feel like there's something wrong with them.

Speaker 2 (02:08:41):

The world's telling me I'm supposed to be doing something crazy

Speaker 1 (02:08:43):

Or something. It's like, no, no, no, no, no.

Speaker 2 (02:08:45):

Not at all, bro. It's your life. It's yours.

Speaker 1 (02:08:48):

Exactly. People like me and Tyler can't help that we're wired this way. This is just who we are. It's just how the cards were dealt with the brain chemistry.

Speaker 2 (02:08:58):

But I think you were really key when you said that. I think it's in you all the time, but I found it, and I found it in the last couple of years, and I think for me, it did come with, I mean, I hate to say it, but part of it, what helped was I don't think it was the success per se. I think it was more than the success. This is something I learned about myself. I can't believe I'm sharing this. This is so deep about myself, I shouldn't say, but 2020 is a lot of self-discovery. One of the things that I discovered that is, I would argue is shallow about myself, and I do think it's mildly unhealthy, and I wish, I hope, I don't think it's completely unhealthy, but I care in a way, disproportionate amount what people think about me way more than the average person. I've met the average person, and they're good to get to where I am now and be as comfortable as I am now, took a lot of effort. But I know this about myself. It's the same reason why I admitted at the beginning that I'm like, oh, I know that. I'm like, maybe shallow is the wrong word. I'm not shallow, but I'm materialistic, right? It's like those are kind of the same thing in some ways. You know what I mean? I value this something that's superficial.

Speaker 1 (02:10:00):

You're into what you're into what can you do?

Speaker 2 (02:10:02):

But what you think of me really should be superficial, but for me, it isn't like I care so much the al likes me. You have to,

Speaker 1 (02:10:10):

But you know this about yourself,

Speaker 2 (02:10:12):

But I know it about myself, and that was the superpower part.

Speaker 1 (02:10:15):

I feel like shit. Was it Andrew Schwepps, who I was just talking to who said that? He was just telling me on the podcast that, so this is public. He was saying that he wants people to like him.

Speaker 2 (02:10:28):

Yeah, me too.

Speaker 1 (02:10:30):

I guess what I'm saying, I think everybody wants it to a degree, but if that's just who you are, it's who you are. It's not a good or bad thing. It's just who you are

Speaker 2 (02:10:38):

And acknowledging that allows you to do something about it. So if you don't want that, well, now you know your tendencies. You know how you are, and you can plan around it. But I do know that for me, it's a disproportionate amount and it's so dangerous to put your self-worth into something like that, which is why that's not really what I do. You know what I mean? I guess I just want, more than anything people listening to take from this is like if you can figure out who you are, the good and the bad. That's why we say the word superpower. You will make the sickest songs, dude. Oh my God, man, I wish this album was out. So I could just be like, yo, just listen to this. I have no idea how to write that song yet. I wrote it. You know what I mean?

(02:11:19):

I'm so much lighter in my life, and I want this for people, and I feel like everywhere I go and everyone I look at, it's the whole reason Joey and I do band academy and stuff, and I'm still coaching. I've been instructing at mi. Mi has been having me come in and teach and help kids and stuff, and it's like, more than anything, fuck a lesson plan. I see people carrying that heaviness of not knowing, of the uncertainty of it all. They feel it's like those people in the back of their head, the ones that aren't sure that they're where they're supposed to be, and that fucking sucks. That feeling sucks, but it's also the most important feeling in your life, and you should learn to embrace it and learn to live in it and let it make you, I advocate the same shit.

Speaker 1 (02:11:58):

That's what leads to the next thing.

Speaker 2 (02:12:00):

Yeah. I say the same thing about boredom. I'm like, yo, boredom is the most expensive feeling in the world. You know what I mean? Boredom is magical, but boredom is what leads you to picking up a guitar. You know what I mean? And boredom is what makes you ultimately know who you are, what you value. If you're too busy in your life, if you're a single mother and you're working two jobs, you never have the privilege and the joy, and honestly, it's so important of sitting down and figuring out who you are. That's why a lot of people, when they have kids too young, they want to relive their, they've never got to be a person. You know what I mean? They've only been raising this kid their whole life, and they had a kid, maybe it was at a really young age where they just never got to experience those things. And I see that in a lot of people. And more than anything, my goal is like, yo, I'll teach you a ton of shit in the process or whatever, but as the counselor in me, the producer in me, my mom's a psychologist, and I was raised that way, so that's probably part of it. But I always want to fix people, and I always want to make them better, and I always want to at least make them know that there's greatness in them. It's nothing special.

(02:13:11):

It's a thing you develop. You what I mean? You have to water the seed. It's not rocket science. Now, not everyone has even a roof over their head or running water. There's homeless out there that, well, I mean, they might have the privilege of boredom, but they might have other road stops. So if you don't have those things, if you have the best combination is having access to the things and being bored. That's what I'm getting at. It's like if you have that, you can make anything. Minecraft was made in a month by one guy by notch who later sold Minecraft, which at this point he owned about 60% of the business to Microsoft for 3 billion in cash and walked away with 1.78 billion for a thing that he was really bored, and he made in 30 days. And Java, by the way, Minecraft is coded in Java, which I don't know any of my programmers out there know what I'm talking about.

(02:14:06):

In any case, it wasn't pretty. It wasn't anything. He didn't even know what it was. He just was bored and he just made a thing. And he was good at programming, but he only knew Java and games are not generally coded in Java is the point I'm getting at, and it's still, to this day, I'm pretty sure it's Java. Well now, I mean it's on everything now, but I mean, he essentially made Legos for the digital world in a month. You know what I mean? But it was ugl as sin, and he wasn't looking at it going, this is fucking digital Legos. You never see the big picture right away. You're never omni potent omni sin or all that stuff. It's like you're just you. And so if you're a family man, the value you bring isn't just the peace in your heart. It's the peace in your heart that lets you be your best self and your pure self, and then that you is what you give out to the world.

(02:14:59):

You know what I mean? And you speak that through, sorry, this is so deep and meta, but through your love language, whatever that is, your language is companionship and friendship and raising a family and making good members of society and making people that, and what are we trying to do as musicians, if not kind of the same thing, just in different ways, just with our toolkit. Aren't we all kind of doing that? Are we all kind of pursuing ultimately our best selves when we are our best selves? We're using our strongest skills to make shit better. That's what I think ultimately, I don't know. Sorry, that's a bit of a tangent, but it really does all tie back into a very simple philosophy, which is, yo, go get your laptop, get bored, hang out with your friends, make a bunch of dumb fucking awesome songs. My first songs were rap songs about Counterstrike, which is a computer game and

Speaker 1 (02:15:56):

Amazing.

Speaker 2 (02:15:57):

It's so stupid, man. But it was on Cubase SX three for the record, which was my first cubase.

Speaker 1 (02:16:03):

What's interesting about what you're saying about just get started, I believe it's Amazon has a philosophy called Bias towards Action, and we have that at UR to Finn, and I always say that bias towards action, the way that that translates is, yeah, we do planning. Of course we do planning of course, but as opposed to mulling something over and over and over and over, we go for it and it might fail. We just tried this marketing initiative about a month ago that's literally producing $0, but we tried it. Now we're onto the next thing. It's bias towards action, just get started.

Speaker 2 (02:16:42):

It's that fear too. I love the bias towards action, but it's ultimately probably, yeah, because people are just scared. It is scared to put yourself out there. It's scared to put yourself out there because you might fail and fail in front of people. And I think that's hard for a lot of people at first. Then you kind of fail and you go, well, that wasn't a big fucking deal at all. What have I been doing all these years? And then you just go wild. That's what I've done. At least I've just been sitting here.

Speaker 1 (02:17:08):

Dude, failure is really not that bad.

Speaker 2 (02:17:12):

Nah,

Speaker 1 (02:17:12):

The anticipation of it is a lot scarier than it actually happening. I believe that it was Tim Ferriss where I got this idea where you ask yourself, what's the worst that can happen if you fail at this, you're going to die. You going to lose some limbs? You're going to be homeless.

Speaker 2 (02:17:30):

Let's talk about real consequences versus your made up consequences.

Speaker 1 (02:17:33):

Yeah, what's going to happen? Let's get real. Not to compare it to going to war or something, but let's get real. What is the worst thing, worst case scenario, what's going to happen? Because in your mind, you're probably acting as if you're going to die or something, but really, what's the worst case scenario?

Speaker 2 (02:17:52):

Someone might say no, or

Speaker 1 (02:17:54):

Yeah, someone

Speaker 2 (02:17:54):

Might say, no big whoop in an email, by the way, or something.

Speaker 1 (02:17:58):

You might not make any money off of it. The girl might laugh at you.

Speaker 2 (02:18:02):

Yeah, whatever.

Speaker 1 (02:18:03):

Then what are you worse off?

Speaker 2 (02:18:05):

I had a manager, so the first record deal that got pulled from us after being heavily negotiated, I'm a kid. I was devastated. You know what I mean? All I ever wanted was to be signed. First deal was there. It was there. We negotiated. I couldn't believe, I couldn't believe it pulled. I was like, felt like giving up. You know what I mean? And my manager at the time,

Speaker 1 (02:18:20):

Yes, I do.

Speaker 2 (02:18:21):

He's like, so are you done? And I was like, what? And he's like, are you done? Are you done making music? And I was like, no. And he's like, that's all the bargaining power you'll ever need in life. He's like, that's all you'll ever need to bargain with yourself to bargain with other people. He's like, the moment that you start going, oh my God, they pulled it. They pulled it. Well ask yourself, are you done? Like you did? And it's like, well, no. And it's like, that's all you need. Okay, you got your answer. Move on.

Speaker 1 (02:18:48):

In 2004, we got approached by an a and r consultant for Nuclear Blast who heard a demo we put online and was all interested. And I was like, holy shit. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (02:19:00):

Nuclear blast.

Speaker 1 (02:19:02):

Yes. That's awesome. And so we sent him a press packet and he was like, sorry, this is not what I was expecting. It's not going to work. That's happened to people I know. And that's where they quit. And I was thinking, well, actually, I wanted road runner anyways.

Speaker 2 (02:19:16):

You can't possibly think about tomorrow. You know what I mean? When you're young like that, you're like, there will never be another band. There will never be another chance.

Speaker 1 (02:19:24):

I had five minutes of thinking that Five minutes of what the fuck?

Speaker 2 (02:19:28):

You're more disciplined than me, man,

Speaker 1 (02:19:30):

Than it was just keep going.

Speaker 2 (02:19:33):

I honestly had to get forced into this type of mindset. It took years.

Speaker 1 (02:19:36):

But you did.

Speaker 2 (02:19:37):

I did ultimately. But for me, the thing that really hurt was the rejection and just having to get over it. And then the same thing, I would write songs for all day when I was not a great songwriter, and I could not a great engineer, recorder producer, do a song, show it to the band. I worked on it. I'm super proud of it. The band hates it. First thing you want to say is, well, I worked on a song all day. Well, you guys just sat here and played video games, but you're going to shoot down my, but guess what? Who

Speaker 1 (02:20:02):

Cares? They

Speaker 2 (02:20:02):

Were right. The song wasn't good.

Speaker 1 (02:20:04):

Do

Speaker 2 (02:20:04):

You know what I mean? The song wasn't good. So I had to get, basically, my feelings smashed so many times that I realized they're not trying to hurt my feelings, man. No one's trying to deliberately, you know what I mean? It's just not that good. And you're putting in the time, but I'm also reaping the rewards of what that time will come to. And here I am. You know what I mean? All these years later, it's like, you don't think like that when you're younger?

Speaker 1 (02:20:27):

No, we nail the mix. We see this a lot because we have the mix competition. Only two people are going to win, right? And man, some months we have 800 or 900 entries or something. They all want to win. Every once in a while, man, you get people who are severely bent out of shape over it. And I always tell them that, A, it's not a big deal.

Speaker 2 (02:20:52):

It's just an opportunity to learn and have some fun.

Speaker 1 (02:20:55):

Yeah, it's just a mixed competition, dude, on an educational website.

Speaker 2 (02:21:00):

But you see how deep art runs with people and how connected they get to their projects and stuff.

Speaker 1 (02:21:05):

Yes, exactly. And what I see it as is not an opportunity to make fun of them for taking it too seriously. More than anything. It's an opportunity to get them to realize you can try really, really hard, and other people may not be feeling it for whatever reason, and that's okay. It's a big part of this whole thing, so you have to figure out a way to get comfortable with it.

Speaker 2 (02:21:25):

Yeah. Oh my God, man. It does go with what you're saying. I always say this in the studio. I'm always like, how you do anything is how you do everything.

Speaker 1 (02:21:32):

Yes. You

Speaker 2 (02:21:33):

Know what I mean? It's like in the spirit of what you were saying before about we're doers and we just go, like you were saying, you know so many better guitar players. Everywhere you went, everyone seemed better. And then you started to realize, oh, but this is a skill too. And this is a skill too. Showing up to practice on time is a skill, and some people don't have it and it's going to cost them the band. You know what I mean? It's just how it works. Everything is, once you start thinking of things like that, like compartmentalize, like that, even your emotions compartmentalize. Being able to pick up why you're angry at a band mate and really look at it and you're like, well, I'm angry for what they did, but I'm also, I think I've always been mad about that, if you start to be honest. Anyways. It's a superpower. You guys. I know so many people that know more about music than me.

Speaker 1 (02:22:18):

There'll always be someone that knows more,

Speaker 2 (02:22:21):

But they could never do what I do. Is one really valued higher than the other, or are you just valuing the, I'm valuing the creative process of it more. And you're valuing the textbook side of it more. I'm saying, I don't know my scales, but I will sit there. I mean, I know enough to be dangerous, let's say that, but you get a real musician in here for one second. I look like an idiot dude, but I will write a way better song than they will ever write. It is just weird.

Speaker 1 (02:22:47):

Okay. Say that. You get a really great songwriter in there with you too. They still won't write the same song you write.

Speaker 2 (02:22:53):

No, definitely. But that's the other thing too, is I don't write everything I produce. You know what I mean? I work with writers, I work with editors on projects, I work with mixers. I've actually learned some really cool stuff. Some of the Fall universe stuff has been mixed by, well, actually some of it's been mixed by a lot of different people, but lately it's been mixed by Tony Maserati, which is pretty dope. And Tony's become a really good friend.

Speaker 1 (02:23:14):

He's such a badass.

Speaker 2 (02:23:15):

He's fucking sick. I mean, people probably know if this is your M, but yeah, obviously he's done Beyonce and Jay-Z all the way to me, whatever I'm working on. But I'm just saying, the dude is literally a fan of music. He's so young. He just has a young energy to him. I don't know. It feels crazy. He feels like so big, such a legend of a guy or something in my mind, because I'm like a pop fiend too. You have to understand that about me. I love metal as much as I love pop and pop producers, and we can talk about basically almost any genre, dude. But I do love rock and I love metal, and it's where I started and it's where I'll always be inevitably even if I try other things. But yeah, he said a few. I used to sit down with him and I started opening up to him.

(02:24:02):

I'd be like, yo, man, we really hit it off as friends. And he just was so complimentary to my work. And I was like, is Tony MAs Roddy standing in front of me saying, my shit is dope. You know what I mean? That my mix slaps or whatever. It's happy. And we mix it together in the room every time because we like hanging out. But one time I started opening 'em up to him, I was like, dude, if you don't mind, can I ask some advice? I want to get a lot out of this. I want to get a lot out of where I'm at now. The fact that I'm in the room with you, I don't know if this is a reoccurring thing or it's just going to be a one-time thing, but I was like, look, you've been down this road and stuff, truly.

(02:24:39):

And the cool thing was we met because he wanted to meet me. He was so impressed with the work, so it was like the ultimate compliment. So I'm going into this and going, Hey, this guy is so nice. Without even having met him, I'm like, he's obviously so nice. He doesn't have to say any of this stuff. He doesn't have to meet me or whatever. And honestly, not to throw this out there, but I don't know a ton of big players like this, but I also became friends with Ted Jensen the same way because Ted mastered the I Prevail record. And he literally reached out to me and had to get me on the phone, and we FaceTimed and he was just like, you need to come to Nashville. He just moved all of Sterling to Nashville. By the way, that building is crazy.

Speaker 1 (02:25:18):

I have been to the one in New York, which was insane.

Speaker 2 (02:25:21):

I never got to go to that one. Mastering engineers can be on a lot of work. So I would read the liner notes of every album, and I would just keep seeing Master by Ted Jensen. All I knew was that name was on all my favorite shit when I was a kid.

(02:25:33):

I didn't know what mastering meant at this. And then I grow up and I wrote him an email. I will say I wrote him a small blurb, a paragraph where I was like, actually, I put it in the zip file of the songs. And it was more of me being like, I wasn't like, oh my God, man, I was hoping that you would be the mastering engineer more than anything, because I've always wondered what my work would sound like mastered by you. You know what I mean? My best work done by in my mind, the best mastering engineer in the world. Who doesn't wonder what that sounds like. And I was like, I'm getting this opportunity. So all I want to say is I was like, I trust you and do, because he asked for Refs and I gave him, but I was like, ultimately, dude, I was like, dude, what's in the best service of the song?

(02:26:14):

All of the things you hear are the first master he sent back. And I did, and I would be willing, if I wasn't happy, I would've said something, but I played it and I was like, this is fucking dope. I just fucked with it. You know what I mean? Anyways, I was with, sorry. So back to Tony. I started opening up and I was like, I want to be impactful with my time here. I don't want to just kind of be a producer who kind of has a few songs. I feel like I have an opportunity to level up and maybe even one day be a name. You are to me, the name Tony Maserati preceded. I found the plugin first. You know what I mean? That means you're a name. And he was really cool about it. He gave me the most practical, logical, true advice where he was like, okay, so you're getting started.

(02:27:00):

You're producing. Your stuff's getting bigger and bigger. You're getting bigger stuff. I was like, yeah. He's like, how many years into your career are you? I was like, well, I started audio production probably 13 or 14 ago, but I've been local doing it for 12 years. I've been relevant for maybe, I don't know, two or something. I'm just trying to be real. I don't know. And I'm telling him all this stuff. He's like, okay, here's how it works, dude. He's like, when I did this album and this album and obviously all these insane things, he was like, if I'm being honest, really even have too much time to think about, is this going to live forever? You know what I mean? He was like, I just wanted to be on everything. And I'm sitting here thinking, okay, wait, this sounds like me. This sounds exactly like me.

(02:27:48):

And he's like, I just wanted to be involved in everything. I wanted to be in everyone's band. He's like, but my lane I found was mixing. It's where I felt like I could be myself and bring my most value and have all this stuff. And he's like, but the crazy thing about those legacy albums are you don't know that you've done it until 20 years from now. So he's like this album, he's like, you're going to work on a ton of cool shit. Most of it's going to disappear if you're lucky. Some of it will still be around. You know what I mean? And he's like, if you're lucky, you will still be around. And he's like, if those two things happened, you did it. It you're a legend. There you go. And I was like, you're right.

Speaker 1 (02:28:24):

And that's not in your control.

Speaker 2 (02:28:26):

It's not in your control. And I love that it took all of the I need to be doing something right now out of the equation. And he was just, it was literally more of a bro, just keep making great songs. And Ted said basically the same thing in different words. I ask every great mind when I can for advice. I'm the last person to think that I know everything, dude. I try to be the dumbest in the room. I try to be the worst in the room, even with my own productions, dude, I programmed strings and I was like, what if we could hire strings though real? And they were better. And I've hired Cody from Wage War to write a breakdown for me on a song more than once because now can I write a breakdown? Can I write a breakdown? Yeah, of course.

(02:29:10):

I already know that I have no pride in the game. That's the difference between me and the person listening. I have no pride. My mission then becomes the best product, not the best product pending my pride. You know what I mean? No, I'm literally seeking out. That's why I was like, give me this editor, dude, if he edits something, and I'm like, and it springs to life in a way that my shit does not game over, dude. Because I'm seeking best song, and that's why I'll be the best producer is because I'm willing to hire people that are better than me when I acknowledge it's something I'm not good at. There's also a lot of things that I am irreplaceable at in the process.

Speaker 1 (02:29:43):

The Rick Rubin approach is Hire the best people. It's funny, you just made me think of something about Nail the Mix and URM about something that one of our detractors was saying at the very beginning was talking shit and was like, you are not a guru. This is not you, blah, blah. This is bullshit. And it's like, you don't even know where I'm going with this. You're right. This is not about me. It's about all the other great mixers and producers in the scene.

Speaker 2 (02:30:14):

You are willingfully facilitating all of it.

Speaker 1 (02:30:16):

The moment that I could stop doing the classes, I was done. I only did the classes at the beginning. I had to, but Point was not to be a guru. The point was to get the greatness of the people who make these genres great on record the end. So you're right. I am not a guru.

Speaker 2 (02:30:36):

And back to your counterpoint, the other goal was to just go, just to start. Exactly. It's you're never a hundred percent ready. You can sit there and mull it over in your head forever. That's what I meant when I said, I know so many people who know so much more. They know every band in the scale and everything that they're doing. And I'm like, you should apply that to something. You know what I mean? Have you ever met those people that there's plugin junkies out there, they know everything about plugins and they can't make a mix or they can't make a song, and I'm like, I don't get you getting off on the superiority thing, or are you trying to make music? I don't understand.

Speaker 1 (02:31:13):

A few years ago, there was a lot of argument online about what difference converters make, and there were some people arguing that they make zero difference and people who don't make records. It's one of these things where I don't believe you need any good gear to make a great record. However, if you are going for that final 1%, it matters,

Speaker 2 (02:31:36):

Then yes, it matters. And it matters even more if you're clipping it. Because a lot of times people buy those $10,000 things to clip them on the way back in because it distorts the mix in a way that only that thing does. So yes, it matters if that's what you're after, is it necessary? No, not at all. Like you said, not at all.

Speaker 1 (02:31:56):

So they were making these points and having these, they were showing spec sheets and doing all this scientific analysis and showing that it doesn't matter. And all these mixers and producers who do amazing work, were saying, actually it does. I can totally hear the difference. And these people who never made records were arguing very harshly with great anger about how it doesn't matter. And it reminds me a lot of what you just asked me about plugin junkies who can't make a mix. It's like, who are you going to listen to? Are you going to listen to the person whose ears have helped create the sounds that the public actually respond?

Speaker 2 (02:32:41):

The qualified person? Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:32:43):

Yeah, the qualified person or not, and what difference does it fucking make? Anyways, why are we arguing about this?

Speaker 2 (02:32:50):

This is not a political thing, but I do think it's a societal or it's a technological symptom because I also have talked about this at great length, how I mourn the death of expertise. I love Twitch culture and I love commentary culture. There's a lot of commentary in the world now. YouTube is commentary. Twitch stuff is commentary. This is commentary. But there's a

Speaker 1 (02:33:13):

Dark side to it too.

Speaker 2 (02:33:14):

Yeah. What about just a professional opinion? I only listen to experts take this. For example, if I was coming up and I was trying to make it in my band, and my parents were like, you'll never make it to me. I wouldn't listen to them because I would look at them and I'd be like, but you're a psychologist.

Speaker 1 (02:33:30):

How do you know?

Speaker 2 (02:33:31):

Even if it's my mom, I'm telling you, I have a lot of willpower too. Maybe that's part of it. But I know people right now dealing with that, people listening right now who want to be a producer and their parents don't understand the concept that they could ever make music and work for themselves. Those are two impossible things in their mind stacked on top of each other to them. They think they're in the right when they tell you don't do that. They didn't do it, and they ended up fine. But the truth is, you are the person with a background, with an education on music and in this scenario, and they are not now on a bigger scenario. You need to recognize when you are not the expert in the room, and again, I can't stress this enough, I think we should all try to not be the experts for a change in the room. You know what I mean? We should seek out the experts.

Speaker 1 (02:34:20):

I agree.

Speaker 2 (02:34:20):

In my opinion, to become the best at something. You jump in at the deep end. If you decide right now, I want to be a really good chess player, what do you think the fastest way to get really fucking good at chess is? Is you sit there and you play fucking pros who humiliate you in every way, and you watch and you just keep playing. You know what I mean? You play with someone who's mediocre and you eventually beat 'em. Well, congrats. You're mediocre.

Speaker 1 (02:34:45):

Absolutely, a hundred percent.

Speaker 2 (02:34:46):

You be willing to acknowledge that maybe you don't know everything. I'm like that. I feel like the more I proceed in my career, sometimes I even think it's the result of me being willing to step back. You know what I mean? It's like maybe you could argue that I am a better producer in scenarios where I hire people better than me to do this job, whereas everyone else feels like that's cheating or something. It's like, well, my job is a producer. Think of it like a producer on a film set. The director is the visionary. He's like, I have the vision for the film, and it's got to be in this theme. It's got to feel like this. It's got to look like this. It's got to do this. The producer is the someone who actually goes and makes the things the director wants to happen happen. So he goes, I want cars going through downtown. So a producer literally goes to the city and gets clearance to block off the road. So do you understand the difference? You as a music producer are both, you are directing the vision and you are responsible for making the best logical decision to make the best film. You have to do both.

Speaker 1 (02:35:49):

I can give you a perfect example, and I completely agree with you. This has served me so well in my life. When I decided to quit production to do URM, I dropped about 20 grand on education on how to learn marketing and starting a business. I didn't know shit about that stuff.

Speaker 2 (02:36:08):

That was a smart spend though, man.

Speaker 1 (02:36:10):

It was a very smart spend. However, my goal was always to get Finn to run the marketing for URM. I just couldn't afford him. He worked for Creative Live. He is way better than I could ever be at marketing. He's

Speaker 2 (02:36:25):

Great. I love

Speaker 1 (02:36:26):

Him, dude. He's a fucking genius.

Speaker 2 (02:36:28):

You would love this. But I had an uncomfortable conversation with Finn on Facebook the other day. He

Speaker 1 (02:36:32):

Told me about

Speaker 2 (02:36:33):

It. It was totally chill. And I love him, and I love that

Speaker 1 (02:36:35):

He loves you.

Speaker 2 (02:36:35):

Yeah. Oh no, I fucking love him.

Speaker 1 (02:36:38):

He was really hoping that you didn't hate him.

Speaker 2 (02:36:40):

Oh my God.

Speaker 1 (02:36:41):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:36:42):

No, it's opposite. I love him more. Do you understand that? We can talk and we can disagree about something and then be like, all right, cool. And then I literally love that

Speaker 1 (02:36:50):

He says what he thinks, but he's never trying to insult anyone.

Speaker 2 (02:36:53):

I think that was both of our problem. I think both of us were saying what we thought and we felt differently, and we both met and we kind of felt like we set our peace and we were like, all respect, bro. Cool. And that was it. It was awesome.

Speaker 1 (02:37:04):

He told me about that, and he was like, I was actually complimenting him.

Speaker 2 (02:37:07):

I mean, I was complimenting him too. I was like, I really appreciate that. We can just discuss this and it's no ill will or anything. That's cool. No, that's great.

Speaker 1 (02:37:16):

He thinks very highly of you, but as a marketing guy,

Speaker 2 (02:37:19):

But Oh, I know Finn is good. Look at his YouTube dude, his channel's sick. He knows my one gripe about it, but he knows now. But I still love it. Again, back to, I don't want to cannibalize the rock scene here. Want there to be more things like him and supporting Rock?

Speaker 1 (02:37:35):

Yeah, that's just his YouTube channel. His legitimate business background is really, really, really solid. And so for people who don't know, he does do punk rock, MBA, YouTube, but he also is director of operations and marketing at URM and Riff Hard. And

Speaker 2 (02:37:52):

Prior to Creative Life too, he do all these other big companies,

Speaker 1 (02:37:55):

Worked for Hollister and

Speaker 2 (02:37:57):

Procter and Gown. Yeah, Abercrombie. Yeah. Yeah. He worked on the Friz campaign.

Speaker 1 (02:38:01):

Huge. Yeah. All kinds of stuff.

Speaker 2 (02:38:02):

Huge. I have Fre in my closet, in my cubbies.

Speaker 1 (02:38:06):

We all, he's part

Speaker 2 (02:38:06):

Of the problem.

Speaker 1 (02:38:08):

So my goal was to replace myself from the marketing thing with URM. I just couldn't afford 'em. But what am I going to do not learn how to do this? I had to learn how to do it in order to get started, but the moment that I could make him an offer better than Creative Live, we did the end. So what if I spent all that money to learn how to do it, had to do that in order to get started, but we wouldn't have been able to scale the way we have without having him taking that over, allowing me to do other things. So I strongly, strongly believe that getting the right people for the right job is a huge part of success.

Speaker 2 (02:38:51):

I would call it big brain. I always call it, there's things that are little brain, and there's things that are big brain. The little brain decision is that your pride is in the way, and you got to do it all yourself. The big brain is, I have no ego in the game. I just want to do the best job as a producer that I can possibly do. And that means, in this case, maybe it means hiring someone or doing that or whatever

Speaker 1 (02:39:14):

The ultimate ego fulfillment is when the end product is fucking amazing. That's the way I see it is, and

Speaker 2 (02:39:21):

Guess what? I made it that way by hiring. It's like

Speaker 1 (02:39:24):

Exactly.

Speaker 2 (02:39:25):

I'm the one that's deciding as a producer, you are literally captain of the ship. You decide when it's done, you decide where it goes, who it goes to. It's like you think that that's not important. You're sorely mistaken.

Speaker 1 (02:39:37):

Lemme tell you my thoughts on ego and pride and tell me what you think. I feel like they're bad words in our culture and in music too.

Speaker 2 (02:39:46):

Oh, I already agree with you. And

Speaker 1 (02:39:50):

You know what I'm going to say,

Speaker 2 (02:39:51):

No, this is going to be great. No, this is going to be wonderful. I didn't expect, I was about to say that. You're not going to feel how I feel about this, but maybe you are.

Speaker 1 (02:39:57):

Okay. So there are bad words in our culture. You're not supposed to have an ego, not supposed to have pride, but I think that that's impossible because they're part of the human condition. So we all have egos. Some people have egos that are out of control, but it's kind of dealing with an emotion. You might feel anger. How you deal with that. Anger is what matters, not the fact that you felt the anger. So yeah, we all have ego. We all have pride.

Speaker 2 (02:40:23):

You're dealt that hand, right? Yeah. You're dealt these emotions and that, and it's what you do and how you feel with it. You have pride to act like it's not there is wrong.

Speaker 1 (02:40:32):

So I decide where I want to have my pride or ego stroked, and that would be from the big picture, not from the little decisions. So I make the conscious decision to remove my pride in my ego from things like that. Who the fuck cares if I'm the one running the marketing or not? Who the fuck cares if I'm the one doing the classes on? I'll nail the mix. That's not the point. But yeah, of course I want to have pride in this, and I do have pride in this, and of course I have an ego. I don't think it's out of control, but I'm a human. I have an ego

Speaker 3 (02:41:08):

Definitely,

Speaker 1 (02:41:09):

But my ego gets stroked by the big picture. Working out, not by the little, having Finn on is not a little thing, but the smaller decisions that go into making the big success,

Speaker 2 (02:41:21):

The bigger product, yeah,

Speaker 1 (02:41:22):

I work very hard to remove my ego from that.

Speaker 2 (02:41:25):

That's exactly it. That's why it's so successful, man.

Speaker 1 (02:41:29):

So do you agree with that or not? What are your thoughts?

Speaker 2 (02:41:31):

Oh, no, I do agree. And beyond that,

Speaker 1 (02:41:33):

What did you think we were going to disagree on? Out of curiosity?

Speaker 2 (02:41:36):

I think that ego is super, super healthy.

Speaker 1 (02:41:39):

Yeah, I agree.

Speaker 2 (02:41:40):

I think that pride is super, super very, I think it's important. I think it's like you have to have an ego with something. And when I say ego, you hear the bad word of ego. There is totally a bad word, version of ego. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about like, okay, remember when my wife said, how many songs do you have to do until you just accept that you're a guy who does songs? Accepting that is to accept not only that I am a producer or a guy that makes songs, but that I stand behind my work, right?

Speaker 3 (02:42:07):

Yes.

Speaker 2 (02:42:07):

And I think you have to have enough ego to be confident in yourself. And it's funny that we are trained, whether we know this or not, subconsciously our whole lives. We are trained to simultaneously, we admire those qualities in athletes and actors and rock stars and politicians, whatever. We admire pride and we admire ego and people we don't know. And by the way, there's a totally unhealthy pride. I'm not talking about the unhealthy kind. I'm talking about literally a healthy balance in your life of feeling like you're worth something and where you come from has a little bit of value. I'm not talking beyond anything of that. You know what I mean? It can be pride in your work. I'm saying you should be able to look at your work and be like, it has value. That's pride.

Speaker 1 (02:42:53):

It's on a spectrum like anything else. There's a sweet spot, and then there's a level where it's fucking pathological and you need to see a psychiatrist. And then on the other end, there's a level where you don't have any and you're just a pushover, totally insecure, miserable human that's afraid to do anything because you think you're a failure.

Speaker 2 (02:43:12):

And I think on that spectrum, we all fall in different places to be our best self. I think that, for example, here's just a good example, or maybe an obvious example, but Kanye was famous for his ego being out of control. But I would argue, no matter how you feel about that, I would argue that he would regardless have fallen on somewhere where ego was more important for him to be his best self than maybe the average person or something. So people are different with where they fall. And I think I fall, another tough truth I've learned again, is that I care a lot what people think about me. I said that it's just some things I've been facing since 2020, but also I care a lot about what people think of my work because of that. It's the same thing. So whether I like it or not, ego plays an increased role in my life lately too.

(02:44:00):

And so I hope I get scared coming on these podcasts sometimes because I think that out of context, some of the things I say when I'm popping off, when I'm just me feeling good is really what I'm trying to say. I'm not literally like, I'm the shit. I'm the best. Everyone sucks, blah, blah. I don't know how it feels, but sometimes I worry because I can feel my ego come up. I do think I'm fucking good, man. You know what I mean? I think I'm good. I don't think that you're not also good. I'm just saying I take pride. I'm so proud to be me. I'm so proud of my work. I'm so proud to show it to people. It has nothing to do with you. It has nothing to do with, but I can see how out of context in a society that's instantly a negative connotation.

(02:44:42):

It looks like I'm a dick or it looks like I think I'm better than everyone else, and that scares me. That does scare me. But I can't deny the ego something I learned about myself. It's a big part. I care what people think because of that. I have to inflate my ego. It's important for me to know that you know that I had a good couple years. That's so shallow. That's so sad. I acknowledge it that something in me needs you to know. But again, to me, the positive lens of looking through that is, again, I take so much pride in my work. I put so much of myself into my work that for you to know that my work is successful is to know that I'm okay. What? I mean, it's sad, but it's true. It's just something I've learned about myself.

Speaker 1 (02:45:22):

So a couple things. First of all, I don't think it's sad, and I don't think it's shallow. I think that these traits just are me personally. I don't put a connotation of good.

Speaker 2 (02:45:33):

Well, thank you for that

Speaker 1 (02:45:33):

Or bad or shallow or deep or whatever.

Speaker 2 (02:45:36):

I don't judge either, man. I try really hard not to judge other people.

Speaker 1 (02:45:40):

It's part of your makeup. And so what I do put a judgment on what I do think is good or bad is the way that people deal with their nature. So if someone knows that it's in them to want approval from other people. Look, this is a very natural human thing to want.

Speaker 2 (02:45:58):

I guess you're right. I guess you're right. Yeah, it's pretty. When you say it like that, it's like, yeah, to some humans that's going to be a basic need, the need of approval or whatever

Speaker 1 (02:46:07):

To a lot of humans.

Speaker 2 (02:46:08):

I'm just trying to own it, I guess. I think I'm just trying to own it. I'm trying to just put it out there and be like, I want people's approval and I'm willing to work for it.

Speaker 1 (02:46:16):

It's one of those things where our culture has made it for some reason, taboo to admit that. But it is a very basic human need, I think.

Speaker 2 (02:46:26):

But we still prize it when we see it in athletes or something.

Speaker 1 (02:46:30):

And when we see it in people that we don't personally know,

Speaker 2 (02:46:33):

We aspire to be that way. At the same time, we rope each other in. We all keep each other in check. You want to go on tour and your girlfriend's like, she doesn't mean to because she loves you. She's just a friend. Obviously. She wants you to be happy. Obviously she wants you to do music. I'm very lucky with my wife to have found this, but I know what it's like to have someone who's like, don't leave. Please just stay with us. And it's like you do want to stay. Of course, you don't just want to leave, but you do want to leave part of it. You do part of it. You want to build something, you want to tour, you want to meet people. You want to have experiences. It doesn't mean that you don't also want to be home, but anything we're doing requires some amount of sacrifice.

(02:47:09):

And at some point you jump or you don't, we jump. You're not ready. You know what I mean? Like you said, we're doers. We get as ready as we can feel good about, but we're not one of those people that has read every technique on micing a drum kit and still hasn't micd a drum kit. Go mic a drum kit, and you'll start thinking, dude, fuck all the fucking fancy shit for just one second. You are just pointing a microphone at a thing and you're just hitting it. That's it. That's it. Okay. The technique in there is endless. I agree. And the amount of sounds you can create. I am not the enemy of the engineer by any stroke of the imagination. But don't overcomplicate it either, man. Don't forget about how to be creative, how to think outside of the rules. Don't forget some of the coolest sounds ever made. Were people fucking putting microphones under water and you know what I mean? I don't know. I'm just saying, don't forget how to learn the rules and break the rules. I mean, it's an old adage or whatever, but

Speaker 1 (02:48:05):

About the pride in ego thing and about doing, you need just enough to be able to go on that tour and disappoint the people who want you to stay home. You need enough to be able to have the, I guess, the testicular fortitude. And then not just that, we have all met people who get carried away with this shit who are pathological. And so I think that we think to ourselves, I don't want to be that person.

Speaker 2 (02:48:31):

Oh, yeah, it's true.

Speaker 1 (02:48:32):

Us in music, dude, we know some egomaniacs

Speaker 3 (02:48:35):

And

Speaker 1 (02:48:36):

We know people who have allowed pride to tank them. And so I think that for us especially, it's not just our culture as a whole, that makes it scary to take pride in yourself. But we have personally, anyone who's been in music for any period of time, whether you're at a local scene or all the way at the top, we have all seen people who have fucked up their own projects, their own careers by being way too prideful. And I think that those of us who have self-awareness do not want to be that person. And we don't want people to think of us as that person. And so it's scary to say, I'm proud of myself because we don't want people to think, oh, that person is a fucking egomaniac

Speaker 3 (02:49:20):

Who's

Speaker 1 (02:49:20):

Going to tank projects I work on, dude, seriously. At the same time, I don't want to work with anyone who doesn't think that to some degree that they're worth working with. None of the people I have brought on nail the mix think that they suck or whatever. They all know that they're good. I mean, they still get imposter syndrome, and they still feel like that 18-year-old kid that doesn't know anything's natural, but they

Speaker 2 (02:49:48):

Also experience the opposite, I think.

Speaker 1 (02:49:50):

Yeah. And I think it's super, super important. Why would you go for it if, okay, why would you go on that tour, right? Why would you risk getting broken up with losing a job? Why would you put yourself through all that if you didn't have some pride?

Speaker 2 (02:50:08):

You didn't value what you were doing, the possibility of the outcome, the time that you're spent doing it, you value all of those things. And I want to add this, having that ego, just enough ego to leave that person is to say, having that pride is to value yourself enough to think that you're worth the opportunity. But I also want to be clear that valuing yourself is not to devalue the other person. You're not leaving because you're more important than them. It's not that. It's that at the end of the day, you have to live with you. You are the most important person in your life no matter what. And when you can be whole and be good with yourself, you can be with anyone who has done the same. You know what I mean? And that's my wife and I. She is exceptional, and I know that.

(02:50:52):

And she's been on tour with me, and she's not been on tour with me. And she's everything in between, man. And I mean, we've been together for basically since I started my whole thing. So we haven't been married this whole time, but we've been together literally 14 years forever. And I've been through, how many places have I gone with her and without her, I mean, leaving always sucks. You know what I mean? But I don't leave and she doesn't think he thinks he's better than me or he values that more than me. But that's how young relationships are. I'm just saying this, for the person who is experiencing that right now, who's trying to leave on a tour and their girlfriend is not even meaning to fuck up what they're building, but is going maybe just tour a little less, or maybe, I mean, and maybe they're right. Maybe they are trying to help and listen to everyone, but ultimately, it's your choice. It's not someone else's choice. And you need to value that, and you need to respect yourself enough to make your own choice.

Speaker 1 (02:51:43):

Well, when I was going to quit production to do URM, I've said this before. I was making six figures at production, not high six figures or anything, but I was doing well.

Speaker 2 (02:51:54):

I feel you.

Speaker 1 (02:51:54):

Yeah, I was doing all right. I owned a house.

Speaker 2 (02:51:57):

You could have easily stayed. You could have easily stayed.

Speaker 1 (02:51:59):

I could have easily stayed. I had a massive falling out with where I was with the people I was working with. However, I could easily just gone somewhere else and kept the train going. It was going just fine. And when I told people real close to me, like my parents or whatever, I'm quitting. I'm not scaling back. I'm quitting. I have a project for metal blade that's booked in two months. I'm dropping out and I'm selling my studio gear, and I'm starting this company. And people real close to me. They weren't trying to say, shit, you're fucking crazy.

Speaker 2 (02:52:37):

I think they were as friends, making sure you're not making a mistake.

Speaker 1 (02:52:40):

As friends and loved ones, they were like, but you've got a good thing going on.

Speaker 2 (02:52:45):

This doesn't just happen to anyone. Why would you throw this away?

Speaker 1 (02:52:48):

You work so hard to get here. This other thing you're doing doesn't even make a little bit of money

Speaker 2 (02:52:54):

Currently. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:52:55):

Are you sure? We don't want you to fuck up your future and all this. No one ever said, you're fucking stupid or anything like that.

Speaker 2 (02:53:03):

That's good. Because ultimately you sold them on the idea that you were doing the right thing. Right?

Speaker 1 (02:53:07):

Well, I sold myself on the idea,

Speaker 2 (02:53:10):

Ultimately, it's your decision to make, and they said their piece and you made your decision.

Speaker 1 (02:53:14):

And I had the pride. I guess I had the pride in myself.

Speaker 2 (02:53:17):

I have that now. That's like a new thing for me, man. It's awesome. I'm like, again.

Speaker 1 (02:53:22):

But that's why it's important though, because when you will come to crossroads in your life where you have to make a difficult decision and other people around you who care and love about you, not, I don't mean about these weird relationships people get into where their significant other secretly wants to sabotage them, which does happen. I mean, people that actually really do have your back and really do love you and really do want you to succeed,

Speaker 2 (02:53:50):

And they believe they have your best intentions at heart, even when they say, don't go on tour, they believe fully that that's the best outcome for you.

Speaker 1 (02:53:58):

Yeah. They care and they don't want you to fuck up. And so the people who you might confide in might not understand, and you have to have the pride and the trust and ego and

Speaker 2 (02:54:10):

The audacity and

Speaker 1 (02:54:11):

The audacity to make your decision for yourself. And if you don't have pride, you're never going to do that. There's always risk with these things, but there's so many reasons for why having some pride in yourself are important. And I think that

Speaker 2 (02:54:27):

This is so true. I never even thought about

Speaker 1 (02:54:29):

Those. Crossroads is one of the most important times when you should know how to feel good about who you are,

Speaker 2 (02:54:37):

Right? That is the thing that lets you make the ultimate decision. Oh my God. Yeah. You need some pride. You need some pride in your work and yourself. And honestly, the ego thing and for me is new, like I said in my life. And honestly, it's really fun. I try to keep it in check. I try to not, I mean, in a healthy way, in a helpful way with what you're saying. I feel like my self-worth to myself has gone up immensely in the past couple of years. And it's sad because it shouldn't have been tied to my success as a producer. You know what I mean? But certain things happen. And now it could never be taken from me though. You know what I mean? Now it's like even if I never anything ever happened again, I don't even, dude, we're all going to be a lot of people in our lives too. I don't know that I'll always be a producer. You know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (02:55:26):

You might not,

Speaker 2 (02:55:27):

In 20 years,

Speaker 1 (02:55:28):

You might totally quit.

Speaker 2 (02:55:29):

I might own a machining company that makes metal brackets or something. I don't know. Life's weird, right? But right now, it's like I know that right where I am right now is where I'm supposed to be, and that allows me to feel light, and it allows me to have my ego so comfortably in check, I think too. And again, but I didn't get that until, well, it's not true. I got it before all this stuff. It's like

Speaker 1 (02:55:50):

You said something earlier, man, you said that you always were able to tell yourself that you've always come through. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:55:57):

That

Speaker 1 (02:55:57):

Tells me that you have always, or at least to some degree, have always had some level of pride in yourself.

Speaker 2 (02:56:04):

I've always trusted myself. And that statement works to me because even though it sounds emotional, it is a fact. And that's where I go, literally never missed a payment. Do you know what I mean? You have literally never, ever not paid your rent ever. Why would it start now? You know what I mean? That's logic. That's like data. That's hard. Facts for me, even though it sounds emotional, like you've never not come through. It's true, even on the emotional level, I guess. But literally was that was where I could hard stop my spiral down. You know what I mean? My spiral. If it wouldn't have stopped there and it would've kept going, who knows if I could finish a song? Who knows if I could grapple with loss or failure or a record deal being pulled out from under you or walking away and selling everything.

Speaker 1 (02:56:53):

Well, this is the difference between delusion and self-awareness.

Speaker 2 (02:56:56):

But even you selling everything, if that was me and I were you, and I was selling my studio and I'm starting a company, I would be saying to myself, but you've never not done it.

Speaker 1 (02:57:05):

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (02:57:06):

And that's enough for me. That would be enough for me to risk it all, because I'd be like, because literally, think of it like basketball, bro. I've hit every three pointer and I've shot a hundred times. I'm about to shoot 101. What do you think is going to happen? You know what I mean? That's what I tell myself, and that's a more uplifting perspective. And then I get this fucking gust of, I just can't be stopped, man. I don't know. I've called cultivated this muscle in me or something to get me and the people around me so fucking pumped. But it's just facts. I don't feel like I'm lying. Do you know what I mean? Whether I'm excited about it or not right now is irrelevant, is true.

Speaker 1 (02:57:42):

Well, like I said, that's the difference between delusion and self-awareness.

Speaker 2 (02:57:46):

Not that you can't fail though, and I think there's always that healthy risk, but I'm just like, but I haven't. It's like statistically speaking, I'm going to win. And so are you, and you did.

Speaker 1 (02:57:56):

Well, I guess it depends on how you define failure. I had a beard oil company that I closed that didn't do well. My band didn't get as big as I wanted. You could count those as failures.

Speaker 2 (02:58:10):

You could count those. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:58:11):

But they're not

Speaker 2 (02:58:13):

That. Those things weren't possible. The things you have now weren't possible without those things. So they're not failures.

Speaker 1 (02:58:18):

They're not failures. Because with the Beard Oil company, it made me really, really understand that it's not just about branding and good product and good marketing and all those, it's not just about checking off all the shit that you see in a course or about starting a business. There's this other thing called product market fit, which is the same thing as writing a hit song. You have to connect with other people.

Speaker 2 (02:58:45):

There has to be an audience that receives it, right? It is just a fact.

Speaker 1 (02:58:49):

An audience who receives it, who's ready for it, who's willing to pay the price that it's at, at the point in time, those things that you can't control have to be there. And if you don't have that, it doesn't matter how awesome everything else is. And so,

Speaker 2 (02:59:04):

Yeah, it never gets hurt. It's like if a tree falls in the woods, but no one's around to hear it. Does it make a sound?

Speaker 1 (02:59:09):

Dude, our beard oil company had fucking awesome everything. The product was superior to the big brands. It was very well marketed. We had it going on. Everything was done right. It just had no product market fit. The crowd did not want it the end.

Speaker 2 (02:59:28):

I could say that about my past bands and stuff, you know what I mean? It just eventually, it's just you do cut it off.

Speaker 1 (02:59:33):

Yeah, dude, my band was sick, but we did not have that fit, and there was nothing we could do about that.

Speaker 2 (02:59:40):

Exactly. What you are describing is a hit song. A hit song is the thing where it all happens at the right time. You know what I mean? It's like the opposite of this, and

Speaker 1 (02:59:49):

You've got nothing to do with it. So it's not a failure, in my opinion.

Speaker 2 (02:59:53):

It's out of your control. Sure.

Speaker 1 (02:59:54):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:59:55):

You're still doing exactly what you're supposed to be doing, and honestly, feeling exactly how you're supposed to be feeling right now. If anything, just know that all the shit you're doing is going to lead you on the best possible path. Hey, Al, look at everything you just listed. Will you just rattle off bullet points of your life? I don't know if you want to go any further back than the band, but you had the band, you had this, you had this. What are just some big, big things you've worked on over the time? Just real quick, or I can do it if you want.

Speaker 1 (03:00:20):

I wrote a concerto for electric guitar and orchestra when I was 17, recorded my first signed band in 2004, got signed to Roadrunner 2006, did Oz Fest, 2007, went to Audio Hammer 2010, started URM 2014 Creative Live 2013.

Speaker 2 (03:00:41):

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So you have done enough to know two things for certain, which is what we just talked about, that, that even now, the possibility that although URM is very likely to persist, that it's not the only person you're going to be in your life, and it's not going to be the only pursuit that you have. Right. And you also know,

Speaker 1 (03:01:01):

In fact, I know it's not.

Speaker 2 (03:01:02):

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's beautiful. It shouldn't be. We have a lot left, man. A lot to give. But you also know that it's either worked out or it's led to the thing that worked out.

Speaker 3 (03:01:16):

Yes.

Speaker 2 (03:01:16):

Basically. You know what I mean? And it's like, that's amazing. So I mean, to the person right now who feels like they're not far along enough, or they're just getting something, but they're not sure they can keep it. They feel imposter syndrome or something like the fact that you're even concerned with those things tells me that you're on the side. That's going to be just fucking fine for starters. So relax, which is great, but also know that this is literally draft one of you. This is like the ugliest you'll ever be. This is the worst you'll ever be. You suck right now more than you will ever suck, ever. Right now. It's the worst that it's ever going to be, and it's only going to get better. Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 3 (03:01:55):

Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (03:01:55):

It's like you are going to get better. You're going to navigate, you're going to figure out how things work. You're going to find a band and elevate that band, right? Because a lot of times you don't become a big producer alone. It's a team. And I'm not just talking about the process. We can say editors, we can say this. I'm saying, when you're just one person, it's still you and an artist that are going to, that's how you blow up as a producer, by the way. You blow up with the artist. You don't just land a big artist because your shit kind of sounds good. You're not even on their radar no matter how good your shit sounds until you've done something.

Speaker 3 (03:02:29):

You know

Speaker 2 (03:02:29):

What I mean? But I mean this in a comforting way, not in a way that should freak you out. It means that the next big thing is right in front of your fucking face right now is right next to

Speaker 1 (03:02:37):

You. Could be the next thing you do.

Speaker 2 (03:02:38):

You probably know who I'm talking about, even though I'm not in your actual position. But if you think about the artists and your network and the people that you know to be great, you probably know who the next big thing is. That's who you produce, dude. You get in there and you earn that spot too. You don't take it from anyone. You don't do anything like that. By the way, why can't an album have multiple producers? Why can't you just do one song at a time? Pop records have 10, 20, 30 producers. Obviously, I'm not talking about cutting people down. I'm not talking about stealing clients. I'm talking about taking action right now in your life, looking up from the ground and literally looking around at what's happening every day. Right now, these artists are auditioning for the role of Next Big Thing, and one day they're going to get it and they're going to get it with a producer. Who the fuck was Lil Nas X, who was his producer? I follow his producer on Instagram. That dude sold beats for like $25. Man, I'm just saying. Shit, it's amazing. It's a testament to what can be done.

Speaker 1 (03:03:33):

It's amazing to think about where people start. Do you remember a point in your life where you had nothing going on?

Speaker 2 (03:03:42):

Absolutely. Man, it feels like yesterday. I always feel like it's chasing me or something, and I have to work harder.

Speaker 1 (03:03:47):

Nothing going on. But objectively, all you had was the idea that you were going to do something and you were getting better at music. But really, there's nothing going on. No label interest. The band isn't together yet. You're just a person who is working hard at developing some skills. And maybe one day it'll happen. Dude,

Speaker 2 (03:04:11):

I'm from a town. I say Dayton. My actual town I was born in is called Spring Valley. Last time I checked, the population was 370. There's literally just draw a square.

Speaker 1 (03:04:22):

So it used to be 371,

Speaker 2 (03:04:24):

Maybe. So Spring Valley is very small. We have no police. We have no schools. There's no stoplights. I mean, I rode my dirt bike around the roads, and once a month when the sheriff was driving through, he would be like, go home, Tyler. And I would go, okay, I'm from there. I'm from the middle of fuck all nowhere. I didn't have bands around me. I didn't have producers. I didn't even have the internet when I was growing up. Just trying to, no

Speaker 1 (03:04:49):

Wonder, you and Joey Connect.

Speaker 2 (03:04:51):

Yeah. Oh my God, Indiana driving what? Driving an hour and a half each way for that? No question. No question.

Speaker 1 (03:04:58):

But I'm just saying he also comes from,

Speaker 2 (03:05:00):

I know, but I'm saying also, I would drive much further. At that stage of my life, I was so motivated to make something and to be something, and to just be a part of something. I didn't even mean, again, I wasn't even trying to be a producer. I just was like, there's cool people doing cool things. You know what I mean? That's how I felt. I was like, I love music. This person loves music. Oh my God, I had no access either. So if you're listening, I mean, I'm not saying that there's no excuse. That's certainly true. It's harder. It's way harder out there. But it's like you do have a lot of your supposed, you have URM, for example. Oh my God. You have samples. You have stems. You have a network of education. I mean, just the internet in general too. I mean, connecting with people right now, people are doing Zoom sessions like crazy. I do 'em even though I hate 'em. But

Speaker 1 (03:05:45):

God, if I had URM, shit,

Speaker 2 (03:05:47):

That's what I'm saying, dude, honestly, your shit is the easiest sell I ever give to people. People are always, how often do you think I get asked if I wanted to get started with what you're doing? What would you suggest? I'm like, yo, easy bang for the buck, man. Are you kidding me? A guitar is hundreds of dollars. You know what I mean? I'm just like, yo, go buy this membership. It is fucking insane. You will know in one month if you want to do this. You know what I mean? And they never look back.

Speaker 1 (03:06:14):

And there's a high chance that if you work hard, you'll meet the person that's going to hire you.

Speaker 2 (03:06:19):

Oh my God, dude. I think music is, oh, I know. Actually, I don't know if you read the stats, but music is absolutely having, we are beginning the beginnings of the second art revolution, basically. You know what I mean? There's a bunch of repressed people. You know what happened when, okay, so when lockdown happened, obviously production on things stopped. But the craziest thing was that all the shit that sold out everywhere was podcasting microphones was musical instruments, and it wasn't even just music. It's people looking inward, right? They're trapped at home. They're not distracted at all by their normal life all the time. They have to ask themselves tough questions. I chose to lean into it, and I was like, let's go. I want to be the best motherfucker ever. And that might involve some pruning sometimes, you know what I mean? Sometimes you got to p prune yourself or whatever. But that's what happened. Art is, first of all, statistically it's recession proof, which is a very scary thing to say. I don't want to jinx it, but

Speaker 1 (03:07:21):

I don't think you're going to jinx art as a

Speaker 2 (03:07:24):

No, because I think that music consumption is at an all time high. I don't think that I know that statistically it's at an all time high right now. And look at it like this. I dunno if you've thought about this, Al. So music assumption is at an all time high. We have a captive audience. Captive audience. People are paying more attention than ever. More people are trying to create music. More people are becoming artists. Now what happens? TikTok explodes faster than it already was. Okay? What is a huge part of TikTok Music? Okay. What is a huge part of everything that's getting big everywhere? Music is so ubiquitous in our everyday lives that if it's not playing in a store, we would think we're about to get murdered. Do you know what I mean? The silence would be like, something ain't right here. You know what I mean?

(03:08:06):

It's like music is everywhere, and the universe is expanding mostly digitally. And as it expands. Were we talking about TikTok two years ago? No, maybe two years before that. It was musically, and even then I was getting royalty checks from him. But I'm just saying the world changes quick and it's increasingly digital and music is an increasing part of that digital world. And then we get some stability with streaming and now with the excitement of the possibility of adapting NFTs and how that could potentially, it doesn't matter. The point is when you and I entered was right after Napster, fuck the whole thing up. You know what I mean? Do were in,

Speaker 1 (03:08:47):

It was a rough spot.

Speaker 2 (03:08:50):

We were kids and we didn't know. We just liked music. But we started bands and started strumming our guitars when music was doing great, great, great, great. And about we got to age, so maybe play out or something. There was no money in music. There was nothing. All the labels closed. It went from that. What happened? All that. It's like we're just now stable and growing just now. And so it's like crazy because you and I essentially bought into the stock when it was a horrible stock. You know what I mean? But we didn't choose to. It's just where we did. It's just who we are. So that stock of music is climbing and climbing and climbing. I would like to see Rock continue to climb and climb and climb, but all that stuff, dude, still, still that microphone you're talking into right now. I still can't get it. And I'm emailing the factory. I'm saying, I have a connect. I will get that microphone. I have an option to get that microphone for free. The point is, they're out because there's so many people ordering podcast microphones. They are literally sold. The second they're made.

Speaker 1 (03:09:54):

I'm going to help you get one after this call.

Speaker 2 (03:09:56):

I've already talked to your guy, and that is what I'm talking about. So I know who you're talking about.

Speaker 1 (03:10:01):

If he doesn't have it,

Speaker 2 (03:10:02):

That's what I'm saying. I'm saying the factory is out. They're out of 'em.

Speaker 1 (03:10:06):

Wow.

Speaker 2 (03:10:06):

That's how big music is right now. That's how big people are. That's when I say that we're about to experience the next art renaissance.

Speaker 1 (03:10:16):

I believe it.

Speaker 2 (03:10:16):

And what do you think is going to happen the second, the year, the summer that festivals are back? Do you think that those festivals, people aren't going to be losing their fucking minds and more appreciative of music and that it could be taken from them and the live environment. And there's going to be all new artists. People are planning shows, they can't wait. The artists themselves are planning the biggest comebacks they can ever, dude. There's more people. All these people blowing up on TikTok. These are just people at home. These are just girls and guys like kids. You know what I mean? Just like there's an art renaissance and it started. Now we're not seeing it. We will talk about it when it's over, but I'm telling you, man, I've had this theory for a long time.

Speaker 1 (03:10:58):

I've had it too actually, and I've seen it from my neck of the woods, from the URM side of things. And

Speaker 2 (03:11:07):

Yeah, dude, the evidence is right there, man.

Speaker 1 (03:11:09):

2020 was amazing for us.

Speaker 2 (03:11:12):

Me too.

Speaker 1 (03:11:12):

Yeah, I a hundred percent agree with you. And a hundred percent have been thinking that for a while. Even before 2020, I was thinking, but

Speaker 2 (03:11:21):

That should excite you. And it does. And the people listening, again, keep that in mind and remind yourself that right now is the worst you're ever going to be. And in a year you're going to be sick and you're going to be like, yo, I sucked last year.

Speaker 1 (03:11:34):

Yeah. But bias towards action and start now.

Speaker 2 (03:11:36):

Thank you. Bias towards action. Start now. That's right. You heard it here. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:11:40):

Well, I think we can end on that.

Speaker 2 (03:11:42):

Hey, I like to talk and a lot of what you said is just so I learned a lot too, man. Thank you.

Speaker 1 (03:11:47):

Likewise, dude, it was a fucking pleasure. Thank you.

Speaker 2 (03:11:50):

Thanks. Yeah. And to anyone listening, I really encourage you to continue to, if you're not aware of me, my name is Tyler Smyth. I appreciate you listening. Thanks. Hey, Al, for everything. Thank you. And I would love it. It would mean a lot to me. If anything I've said at all, if you're still listening, has resonated at all to, well first of all, feel free to contact me if you like. My email is on my website and my website is just my name. It's just Tyler Smyth, SMYT h.com. Smyth with a Y. You can email me right on there. It's literally scroll down. It's literally only one page. It's not very complicated. If you want to chat, hit me up. But also, I would encourage anyone, please do me the honor and do me the favor of checking out any of my past recent work, like either any of the recent falling inverse songs or I Prevail album or the new stuff when it comes out. I am really trying to do something cool here and I think, I feel like I'm speaking to music people here, not just random people. So this is specific to the music producers and the artisans out there.

(03:12:49):

I'm trying to grow on the creativity that I've been creating with these two bands more recently. And I think I've found Elaine. I think I've found the sound I really adore, and it would just mean a lot to me, my version of one Option of the future of what a rock band could sound like. It's kind of what I'm trying to do. It's just my take on it with one artist or two artists. But I'm proud of both and it'd mean a lot if you would check out my work or feel free to hit me up or anything like that.

Speaker 1 (03:13:15):

And I would also say Tyler's nailed the mix. It's on the URM site and it's a really, really good one. People love that one. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (03:13:23):

It's a super heavy song by Bless the Fall. Yeah,

Speaker 1 (03:13:26):

Cutthroat.

Speaker 2 (03:13:26):

Yeah, it's cool. It's a fun one.

Speaker 1 (03:13:29):

It came out really, really well. And anyways, thank you very much for doing this,

Speaker 2 (03:13:35):

Man. Anytime I look forward to, maybe we can do it again sometime soon.

Speaker 1 (03:13:38):

Of course. Be happy to. Alright, then another URM podcast episode in the bag. Please remember to share our episodes with your friends as well as post them to your Facebook and Instagram or any social media you use. Please tag me at al Levy URM audio at URM Academy. And of course tag our guests as well. I mean, they really do appreciate it. In addition, do you have any questions for me about anything? Email them to [email protected]. That's EYAL at M dot aca MY. And use the subject line answer me Al. Alright then. Till next time, happy mixing. You've been listening to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast. To ask us questions, make suggestions and interact, visit URM Academy and press the podcast link today.