NOLLY & ERMIN: Audio Stalkers, Building a Gear Company, Escaping Echo Chambers

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast,

Speaker 2 (00:00:04):

And now your host, Eyal Levi. Welcome to the URM podcast. Thank you so much for being here. It's crazy to think that we're now on our fifth year, but it's true, and it's only because of you, the listeners. And if you'd like to see us stick around for another five years, there are a few simple things that you can do that would really, really help us out, and I would be endlessly appreciative. Number one, share our episodes with your friends. If you get something out of these episodes, I'm sure they will too. So please share us with your friends. Number two, post our episodes on your Facebook and Instagram and tag me and our guests too. My Instagram is at al Levi urm audio. And let me just let you know that we love seeing ourselves tagged in these posts. Who knows, we might even respond.

(00:00:59):

And number three, leave us reviews and five stars please anywhere you can. We especially love iTunes reviews. Once again, I want to thank you all for the years and years of loyalty. I just want you to know that we will never, ever charge you for this podcast, and I will always work as hard as possible to improve the episodes in every single way possible. All I ask in return is a share post and a tag. Now, let's get on with it. Hello everybody. I'm going to keep this intro short because it's a pretty long episode, but my guests today are Adam Nolly Getgood and Ermin Hamidovic. I probably pronounced that wrong. They actually have come on the podcast before episode 1 51 about three years ago, which is I think one of the all time best URM podcast episodes. And it's a shame that it took three years for us to do a part two, but it was very, very heavily requested that we talk. And just so you know, both of these dudes are brilliant. Nolly is a mixer, software entrepreneur and a former bassist of Periphery. Ermin is a mastering engineer, software entrepreneur, author, and brilliant dudes, and it was a great conversation. I'm just going to let you get into it. Enjoy Nolly and Ermin, welcome back.

Speaker 3 (00:02:24):

Thank you. It's a pleasure to be back.

Speaker 4 (00:02:26):

Likewise. Always great to be on with you guys. It's been like three years or something since we did the first Trio podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:02:34):

That's

Speaker 3 (00:02:34):

Unbelievable.

Speaker 5 (00:02:35):

It doesn't feel like it though, does. It

Speaker 2 (00:02:37):

Doesn't.

Speaker 3 (00:02:38):

I mean, I have no memory of really what we talked about,

Speaker 2 (00:02:41):

But it feels recent. I know it wasn't recent because it was two living spaces ago, three living spaces ago, actually. Three. Oh wow. So that means it was three years ago. That's the only way that I know. I remember what room I was

Speaker 3 (00:02:54):

In,

Speaker 2 (00:02:55):

And I remember we talked about meditation. That's all I remember. Yeah, I know. I do remember that actually.

Speaker 5 (00:02:59):

Yeah, I feel like that's something you probably could have used if you've moved three times in three years.

Speaker 2 (00:03:04):

Yeah, dude. Moving sucks.

Speaker 3 (00:03:06):

Yeah. Where are you now? Did you move down to Florida or?

Speaker 2 (00:03:09):

No, I'm in Atlanta. Ah, cool. I just moved around Atlanta. This last one was the most interesting because it involved an ex-girlfriend's criminal stalker showing up for the first time in about eight years. Very, very scary individual. And we were going to move out and go our separate ways at the end of February, but this dude showed up out of nowhere on January 1st and left a note on her car that said together forever in some weird ass code language. And so my decision was, we're leaving tomorrow and you can come with me or we can go our separate ways. Either one's cool, but we're not sticking around. So it was an interesting move, but honestly, that shit doesn't stress me out very much. But it definitely does make it more interesting when you're worried about your physical safety the whole

Speaker 3 (00:04:10):

Time. It sounds like something's off a Netflix documentary.

Speaker 2 (00:04:13):

Yeah, exactly. Gives you a heck of a

Speaker 5 (00:04:15):

Story to tell.

Speaker 2 (00:04:16):

I know. I haven't told this one yet. So anyway, this guy is like an ex-felon. He's on tons of gear steroids. For those of you who don't know, he's an avid shooter and a fighter and very scary kind of dude. So yeah, I made the executive decision to not stick around and find out what happens. That sounds ultra wise, maybe nothing would've happened, but at the same time, you never really know. Yeah. So

Speaker 5 (00:04:48):

Wow. It's a very kind of Hollywood esque experience you have there. I mean, it's the kind of thing nobody wants to live through, but I guess when you do and assuming everything resolves just fine, you can look back and just have the ultimate dinner party story.

Speaker 2 (00:05:01):

Yeah. Well, I agree. It's those kinds of experiences that make life more interesting. I guess I have a connection to stalkers because I used to have one back in the doth days,

Speaker 3 (00:05:14):

I thought you were going to say that you wore one.

Speaker 2 (00:05:19):

No, I'm the easiest person to break up with. If a girl breaks up with me, I delete her instantly. It I'm easy. No, I had someone who stalked me for about six years and was actually quite frightening. So that kind of led to me doing a lot of research about these fucking insane O types, and I feel like I kind understand them, and that's why when he popped up, my immediate reaction was, let's just get the hell out of here. Let's not mess with this.

Speaker 5 (00:05:55):

Well, are we talking in audio stalker here or a romantic stalker? I know the context. Romantic. Yeah. Okay. They're the worst.

Speaker 2 (00:06:02):

But you know what, those audio stalkers are very similar. I know the type you're talking about. They're like the same soul, just a different purpose.

Speaker 5 (00:06:12):

Yeah. I feel like it's the next level from the Punisher. The term that Nolie actually first introduced me to back in 2012, I kind of had no conceptualization of what it was until I started working on slightly bigger records. And it was like, I understand. I finally get what all these guys are talking about. Okay, I get why this can be a problem in your life, a longstanding one,

Speaker 2 (00:06:35):

And the audio stalker, I've never actually heard it referred to that way, but I'm sure you've had one. I'm sure Nala, you've had one too, or 15 or 20. They're kind of frightening. The reason I think they're frightening is they don't see you a person. They see you some sort of a possession or an object for them to glean or to extract things from. And if you don't go along with that, that doesn't really fit their plan. And they're typically unstable individuals, and so not all of them will lean towards violence or anything. Some of them are just unstable and in a benign way, but not all. It's kind of a scary thing. It makes me very uncomfortable.

Speaker 5 (00:07:20):

They definitely have this kind of idealized perception of you in the moment that you deviate from that whatsoever. They just kind of lose the plot completely. So it's a very interesting persoNollyty type in that respect. But I think more than anything, you have to be aware of the fact of what a person might be missing in their own lives in order to project all of those things onto somebody else. So it isn't just like, oh, woe was me. There's this really weird person kind of clinging on. It's also like, well, what has happened to them to put them in this position where they need to do this sort of stuff? So there's always two ways of looking at that situation.

Speaker 2 (00:07:52):

Yeah, for sure. Well, I totally agree with you. As long as your physical safety isn't an issue, then I say explore it all you want. But the moment that your physical safety is an issue, and I mean this is real for musicians. Musicians have been killed by these types, so it's a legitimate concern. But you're right, if the physical safety's not an issue and we're just talking about trying to understand where the person's coming from, then yeah, I think it's kind of the compassionate thing to do to try and understand what went wrong, what's missing, what role is it that they think that you play in their lives

Speaker 5 (00:08:33):

Right up until they write together forever on the car and sport, a collection of Winchesters. Then you kind of draw the line and get a bit more extreme, I think.

Speaker 2 (00:08:42):

Yeah, exactly. Right. And I just want to reiterate, the romantic stalker and the audio stalker are basically two of the same kind. There wasn't too much difference except for the romantic element I guess, but the craziness was the same kind of freaky shit.

Speaker 3 (00:09:02):

I think probably a good advice is kind of what you did, which is whichever it is. If someone is acting that way to you as much as empathizing with them might be a good exercise to go through, it's probably best just to distance yourself and have zero contact. Just saying that for anyone out there that's experiencing stalking currently, I think don't even try and interact with that person. You never know what could happen and you don't really know what is happening.

Speaker 2 (00:09:26):

You're absolutely right. I've seen a lot of bad advice out there such as, why don't you get a restraining order? Why don't you tell them to stop? And from all the research I did about these persoNollyty types in general, those types of measures only work on people that are semi-normal. So if you actually have a true disturbed person that's stalking you, getting a restraining order or trying to engage them will most likely just escalate the situation. So you're absolutely right. The best move is to disengage and hope that they just latch onto somebody else or something. It's kind of a shitty thing to say.

Speaker 3 (00:10:10):

Well, I don't think so. I just think it is probably more dangerous to assume that you have the skills necessary to deal with a situation like that.

Speaker 2 (00:10:18):

You don't unless you're a mental health professional.

Speaker 3 (00:10:20):

Yeah.

Speaker 5 (00:10:21):

I think the solution is rarely of irrational one as well, because the problem itself is rarely of rational too. So it's very difficult to ratioNollyze your way out of that situation. All you can really do, I think, is practice avoidance as much as possible and hope that they, like you said, latch on someone else or at some point get the kind of help or fulfillment that they need to stop acting out in those patterns. But it's interesting how often this kind of story recurs because a lot of my old friends, some of which have gone on to get quasi, let's say YouTube fame or become really reasonably large figures in the scene, they always have a story like this that's made them really wary about sharing their whereabouts or their address with people. And there's always that elements of like, I've got to watch out who's going to get access to these details. So if I'm looking to, let's say, send an old friend a copy of my book or whatever else, it might be some kind of physical package, they're always like, all right, you really have to keep this under wraps or here's a PO box. That sort of stuff. It's very interesting.

Speaker 3 (00:11:19):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:11:20):

I mean it's totally understandable.

Speaker 5 (00:11:22):

Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (00:11:23):

I think I used to have an approach that was a lot far too trusting and not really thinking about that side of things, but more recently have realized the importance of it and definitely try and be more,

Speaker 2 (00:11:33):

You're such a nice guy. I can totally see you being very nice about it, stalker fodder, man. I can see that your niceness could cause that issue to kind of get unmanageable times just because you're super polite, you're super nice, and I think people could misinterpret that as an invitation.

Speaker 3 (00:12:02):

Yeah, I think you're probably right. Thankfully, I've not really had many experiences that way, at least not since touring, and it's not like I really encountered much of that at all. But yeah, it definitely could be a liability and something which I'm trying to be more aware of for sure.

Speaker 2 (00:12:15):

You were saying that some of your friends basically all had a story like that.

Speaker 5 (00:12:22):

I wouldn't say all of them, but I'd say the guys who've achieved what you might call quasi fame in the scene, especially the guys online who put themselves out there on mediums like YouTube, they usually have at least one story like this that got somewhat extreme, and they won't often talk about it in detail, but there's enough of an illusion to what happened for me to accept the gravitas of the situation and go, okay, cool. I get that you take this very seriously and I have to be very discreet with these details that you're providing to me.

Speaker 2 (00:12:52):

So I think what's interesting about social media and the style of getting known through that, I don't even know what to call it, let's just say social media fame, is that since social media by its title, social media, it comes off in a personal way. That's actually what works. Authenticity and even lower production values that don't seem like they came from a corporate TV studio or something. Lower production values and more persoNollyzed, authentic content is what works on social media. And so by very nature of the product, you're connecting with people in a way that you just wouldn't through some slick medium. And I think that that right there opens up YouTubers, podcasters, whatever. It makes people think that they already know them in real life. I've gotten this before, people who have met me who are podcast listeners have told me that it's really, really weird for them.

(00:14:00):

This is what the normal ones say because they've heard me talking in their car for five years. But then some of the weirder ones will act like we know each other, even though I met them for the first time, I have no idea who they are, but they'll act like we have a relationship going, which makes me extremely uncomfortable, but it's because I've been talking in their car for five years and talking pretty openly about things and talking openly with guests about their lives too. And that's the beauty I think, of the podcasting format, but it also is the scary part of it. You connect with people in a different way that maybe if you're just in a band, you can hide behind the music. You don't have to get personal.

Speaker 5 (00:14:46):

I think it's all relatively new to us. We're still struggling to with the rate of our technological progress. So the format through which we're doing, so many of our social interactions these days are so fundamentally unnatural to the human animal, and I think we're all trying to basically find a point of equilibrium with it all to make sense. But I completely understand why somebody could feel like they've known you for the majority of, let's say, their adult lives, if they're a young adult and been listening to the podcast for ages. It's just you constantly have to be conscious of the fact that you need to put a dividing line in between how you make that perception and how you actually approach this person. Just because I've listened to Michael er felt's music for let's say 20 years when I see him, it's not going to be like, Hey, Mikey, how you doing, man? Hey man, it's good to see you. And guys sometimes come up that way to me, and I'm not a sucker for social convention or anything, but it's like if you come up to me, I've never spoken to you, and you're like, Hey, Ermey man, check out my EP and all this shit. It's a very weird way to come onto someone that you have no prior rapport with. So I think having that convention in place to set the groundwork of a social relationship is very important, especially in this age.

Speaker 2 (00:15:58):

Yeah, I know what you mean too. And I know what they mean because, okay, so I've been listening to the Joe Rogan podcast forever, or Howard Stern or something. I know I don't know them, but I feel like I know them, but I don't, they have no idea who I am. And if I would happen to be in a room with them, I would never dream of ever approaching them as if we knew each other. But I understand the feeling because I've been hearing these people talk forever, so they seem like real people to me that I know. I think what you said about the human animal not being caught up to the technology is very, very wise. I think it's important to understand that there's about a hundred thousand or more years of nothing, and then about a hundred years of this basically, it's quite a learning curve. I think we definitely have not adapted to it yet.

Speaker 3 (00:16:56):

I think it's quite a hard interaction to break out of, for example, until we've all been in lockdown, mainly when I've been driving around, has been listening to radio, like national radio, and it's really cool to hear the DJs coming on. They're all already personable and have their own persoNollyties, and you start to feel like you know them. And just imagining a situation like you describe Al, where I meet one of those people, it's very difficult to kind of willfully forget that you have some idea of their persoNollyty, at least as they put it out there and start from scratch. I think it takes quite a genuine concern and empathy to be able to do that. And I think I've met a few people in my life that seem just unnaturally good at picking up conversations with famous people or people that otherwise might have their guard up, and they do it by being really genuine and genuinely caring and talking to those people. They're a stranger that they're interested to know more about, and it's not going to work the time because some people just have their guard up too much, but there's nothing you can do to go from entering into a conversation as a fan to walking out of it with a genuine friendship with that person. I think

Speaker 2 (00:18:01):

It's almost like the way that a stripper won't date the clients. There's a parallel there. Yeah, I think if you approach somebody like a fan, you won't walk out a friend, I met Mike Patton once about 20 years ago, and Mike Patton, he's super respected now. At that time, he was a massive rockstar. I guess he was in the late nineties and people worshiped the hell out of him, and he was one of my musical heroes, and I just wanted to talk to him about his vocal warmups. I just wanted to know what they were. I did not want to fanboy him or anything like that. I just wanted to know what he did. I was taking vocal lessons at the time, and the dude is a fucking maniac on stage. So they were playing in Boston, and I went to the club before the show hoping that I could bump into him, and I did bump into him on the street and I disengaged him in conversation like a normal human.

(00:19:05):

And then we started talking about that, and he told me all about his vocal warmups. He was totally, totally cool, totally normal. I did not fanboy him at all, a hundred percent just human to human interaction. While we were talking, the Mike Patton squad came up fan squad basically, and started fanboying him like crazy. They surrounded us and interrupted us and just were treating him basically like a prize stallion or something. And what he did was he turned his back to them and then kept talking to me and made a face. Basically, he made a face like these fucking idiots and completely iced them out, which I thought was very, very interesting. To this day, it stuck with me because it was exactly what you're saying, that if you approach somebody like a normal human, that's how you're going to end up having a normal human relationship with them. If you approach them like a fan, there's no way to walk out of it a friend. I think it's because as a fan, you're not seeing the other person as a person. You're seeing them as, it's like some sort of a mythical being that creates this thing you consume.

Speaker 5 (00:20:23):

It's deification. And I think the problem with that is that what kind of an interaction could you possibly hope to have with that person beyond that point, there's really no exchange that can happen. You are basically setting up this really bizarre power dynamic that they probably don't even want where you've put them up on this insane pedestal where you can never reach as a mere fanboy or whatever you might see yourself as, then how do you expect to have a regular two-way conversation? That's the groundwork that you've laid. So it's just in general a really bad practice, I find. So every time I found, and it's not often I find people that I perceive in those terms, but when I actually met the guys from OPEC when I was an early adult, late teenager, I was very conscious of the fact that like, Hey, just be cool.

(00:21:09):

Have a nice calm conversation with these guys. Tell 'em the set was good, and we'll move on from there. Don't be like, oh, man, you've revolutionized my life. I don't listen to music the same way. Still. Life is the best record ever written. I still listen to it 20 years later, and that sort of stuff. So just I think chill a little bit and try and be mindful of the other person's position and perspective and how often they might run into that, especially if there's someone as massive as Mike Patton who'd be getting it all the time by the late nineties, if you can imagine the level of punishment and anxiety and strain that would've been putting on his life at that point.

Speaker 2 (00:21:40):

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, that was at the height of Faith No more. And the height of Mr. Bungle.

Speaker 4 (00:21:45):

Wow.

Speaker 2 (00:21:46):

So both of the bands on major labels, I think Faith No More had just done, they had reunited or something, but they had done tours with guns and roses and shit, massive, massive stuff, and had big radio hits and one or two platinum records, and then Mr. Bungle was just destroying it. They were also, I can't believe that band was on a major label, by the way. That's just ridiculous. Can you imagine that confuses the hell out of me. A band like Mr. Bungle being on Warner Brothers now. Yeah, not at all.

Speaker 5 (00:22:20):

It was a different Si male, a very different time, I think.

Speaker 2 (00:22:23):

Yeah, if anyone's not familiar with them, go listen to Disco Voe and realize that that came out on Warner Brothers. It's kind of mind blowing the OPEC guys. Actually, that's a perfect example. I kind of felt that way about their music. I still kind of do, but I especially did 15 years ago and I got the chance.

Speaker 5 (00:22:46):

Well, it's hard not to. Yeah, right. Sorry. We'll let you go on. But just going back to that, it's when you hear something like My Arms, your Hearse Still Life or Blackwater Park for the first time, which is around the era that I got into them, the late nineties, early two thousands, there was nothing else. You couldn't be like, oh, I like this band, therefore I will listen to these other ones. They had just created this crazy amalgam of Prague rock and melodic death metal that just kind of nobody else was doing on the same level. So it was either you were into OPEC and OPEC or nothing.

Speaker 2 (00:23:16):

Basically. I remember seeing them in about 2003 or oh four, the Blackwater Park tour,

(00:23:22):

And there were only a hundred or 200 people at the show, but I felt like I was watching Led Zeppelin or something. I felt like I was watching something that was historically great. It was ridiculous. I'd never seen anything like it, and to this day, I haven't seen anything like it, and it blew my mind. And then I met them and I didn't feel the need to tell Michael that because I know he doesn't believe it. And if he does believe it, he's not going to let you know. He believes it. He hears that shit 24 7, and I'll just give you an example. So I was hanging out with them at NAM one year, and we went to dinner, and then we went to some show, and then we went back to the Hilton and me and Freddy were trying to smoke weed, and he had a room at the Hilton that kind of went out to this patio.

(00:24:18):

This patio was communal, I guess. So all the other rooms that were connected to this patio had access to it. So we went out there to smoke this joint, and I guess a bunch of the people on the patio were OPEC fans and recognized him, and so they crowded around us, and then before you knew it, there were, and I'm not exaggerating, 50 strangers in his hotel room, just going through his shit, going into the mini fridge using his bathroom. It was so not okay, and he was so uncomfortable. And Swedes, they're so fucking polite. So obviously he didn't say anything, but you could tell that in his face that he was just dying on the inside. These were complete strangers just helping themselves to his hotel room.

Speaker 3 (00:25:12):

That is so disrespectful. That makes me mad to think about,

Speaker 2 (00:25:16):

Could you imagine

Speaker 3 (00:25:17):

I can, and it's horrible.

Speaker 2 (00:25:20):

Yeah, man. Just thinking about his face, it was like half smile, half grimace. He is polite and got to be nice to fans, but at the same time there in my shit, it stresses me out just thinking about it.

Speaker 3 (00:25:39):

Yeah, I mean, I guess part of this whole conversation should also be that people are just different. Maybe the guy that you want to approach is really extrovert, really down to talk to people, wants the attention even or at least wants some companionship and is at a time in the day where he's got time and you might have a great interaction if you go up to him and kind of fanboy out. He might be able to diffuse that and turn it into something cool. But then there's other people that just, they might be introverted, they might be having a bad day. There might be some kind of cultural difference. And I don't mean that you need to go by stereotypes, but you're right. A lot of the Swedish guys of a certain age tend to be really low key, at least in the metal world, and maybe they just don't want to chat. Maybe they're never going to want to chat, and you're never going to be able to have that relationship that you wish to have with them.

Speaker 5 (00:26:23):

It's really interesting. I really got that vibe from Martin Lopez when we first met the guys. Out of all the guys in Opeth, he struck me as a Taipei introvert, just wanted to go about his business, smoke his joint at the back of the venue, and kids just wouldn't leave him alone. I mean, I was kind of guilty of this. I was pretty young back then, so I was kind of just loitering, hovering around, and I remember how uncomfortable the guy looked, and in my mind back then, I'm like, I couldn't understand it. To me at that point, I'm like, this guy has it all. He is in a touring band. They're fantastic. They're at the pinnacle of metal. Why would he be upset? And then obviously in subsequent years, those issues would kind of grow and grow and grow until he eventually decided to abandon ship altogether. So stuff can be pretty serious if it becomes longstanding for guys that are ill-equipped to deal with it long term, for sure.

Speaker 2 (00:27:12):

So my band never got anywhere even a fraction of that size or a fraction of periphery size. And I can tell you that that was one of the reasons that I wanted to stop touring Ali. I can only imagine what it must have been like for you because periphery like 20 X the size of my band, I am sure it was intense on that front.

Speaker 3 (00:27:35):

It could be. At times we had a good range of fans, and towards the end as the band was getting bigger, we were doing a lot of, I'm talking like the band isn't a thing anymore towards the end of my time, the band, it's definitely a thing. There's all these kind of VIP packages and good moments for us to interact with the fans, and I think we were able to turn them into really positive experiences for everyone. But it definitely, I'm a pretty introverted guy, and there's certain times just come off stage. Maybe even being on stage is something which makes you feel uncomfortable. You need your alone time after that, and sometimes you don't have that space, and that can be difficult. But hey, I mean, it's still ultimately a very minor price to pay for the privilege and experience of getting to play cool music on stage and put out records as a living.

Speaker 2 (00:28:20):

Absolutely. And you know what, I actually think that the VIP package is a great way to kind of mitigate the whole situation in a way because it provides a structured environment for the fans that are the most enthusiastic to have their moment and then the moment's over, and hopefully you can kind of go back to your

Speaker 3 (00:28:47):

Privacy,

Speaker 2 (00:28:48):

But it keeps it contained. And so I think that the types of fans who would buy a VIP package are also the types of fans who would find you at your hotel or who would get to the venue at 2:00 PM and stock the stage or whatever, just hoping to find you. But if you give them that VIP package, the need for them to find you at your hotel is gone. They're going to get that time with you at the meet and greet. And so I think that it actually, I'm not sure that this is the exact motivation for those meet and greets. I'm positive that the motivation is more on the let's make the most of this tour. But I think that it probably has the unintended benefit of keeping the interaction with those types to a limited and positive experience basically.

Speaker 3 (00:29:43):

Sure. Yeah. And what's really cool is, on the other hand too, there's people that come to the meet and greets that are really cool, personable people that maybe are more introverted themselves and are not going to stand there and bother you at the end of a show or not going to fight with a crowd of people to have a conversation with you. And in that moment, they actually have the chance to have a decent conversation. We've met some really cool people, met some cool families that came out with their young kids and stuff like that. They're not going to hang around after the show to try and have a word. So we actually got to meet some really nice, genuine, cool fans that didn't display any of these characteristics we're talking about and have a decent conversation with them in an appropriate setting. So that's something that I felt good about.

Speaker 2 (00:30:22):

I'm sure that that made the whole experience better for you being that you are an introvert.

Speaker 3 (00:30:28):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:30:28):

I'm sure the fact that you had the experience of meeting cool people and not just getting punished made the whole thing a much more tolerable experience.

Speaker 3 (00:30:38):

For sure. Yeah, we had some really good times.

Speaker 2 (00:30:40):

And I just want to say also that I don't mean at all to make it sound like this is some sort of a burden or anything because it's totally a privilege to get to make music for a living and have fans.

Speaker 3 (00:30:54):

Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (00:30:54):

It's just if we're being real, there's nothing in life that's perfect no matter what profession you have, no matter how awesome your profession is, there's going to be elements of it that might not be perfect, and that's just life. But that's not in any way to say that we're saying that those of us who have been able to make a living at this don't appreciate it or anything like that, or that we even have contempt for fans. It's not that at all.

Speaker 5 (00:31:24):

No, it's not that whatsoever. But it's interesting when you look at, let's say we're sold that, let's say the pinnacle of human existence in the West is to be like an A-list Hollywood actor. And these people so very often have some fundamental coping issues with life. There's always drug dependencies, there's always crazy stuff going on. And you always think to yourself like, well, no matter what you achieve in your life, what tier you end up on or what avenue you take, everything always comes with its own burdens and responsibilities. And it seems like being in a position where you are extremely prolific and out in the limelight, which I'm very, I guess personally glad not to be because this is a very secluded job where nobody really knows or cares who you are. In my position, people care who

Speaker 2 (00:32:04):

You are.

Speaker 5 (00:32:05):

Well, I've yet to meet a substantial quota of them, so I'm happy with that. But as far as the actors and stuff go, they would be getting it all the time. It would be hypercharged in a way that I have no conceptualization of. I have no reference point for it. So to actually be that segregated from the bulk of the human populace to only be able to interact with a select few individuals on that same kind of level that you exist on and actually have a two-way kind of discourse, that must be such a surreal place to exist. But again, going back to what Al said, this is in no way a complaints where we find ourselves or the vast majority of interactions we have with people. It's just I find for me, human psychology is deeply fascinating. Group psychology kind of herd mentality and things like that is something I've done a deep dive into over the last 10 years. So I'm always fascinated with the way that we interact with each other through various mediums, and especially as technology progresses and we move a lot more of it online, and things become a lot more alien to our kind of primordial biology, if you will. So the ways that we interact are far more surreal and kind of contrived now. And it's interesting to see the emergent kind of patterns of human behavior when that happens.

Speaker 2 (00:33:16):

Absolutely. However, I do think that the cult of celebrity is age old, is just morphed. I think that the same types of people who would be charismatic spiritual leaders 2000 years ago, something like that, are now the celebrities. And maybe thousands of years ago, they'd worship them like a deity and start a religion after them. Now they'll just fan the shit out of them. But I think that charisma and having a special something that is rare, that for some reason other people gravitate towards that's age old. So what's interesting is superimposing that over technology because it's like a force multiplier, but I don't think that it's a new concept at all.

Speaker 3 (00:34:07):

Yeah, I agree. Technology's really changed the game. Now. People can broadcast for themselves. They don't need some tabloid magazine or gossip magazine to spread to the world what they've been up to. They can kind of get involved in their own race to the bottom of giving away their personal life in exchange for some kind of social recognition. But I think in all spheres, you see people that also weather it with grace. I might be completely wrong about this, but I'm thinking of a few actors, Hollywood actors that have always maintained a strict barrier around their personal life, and they've managed to have decades long careers as a-list actors without seeming, I'm sure they face a lot of challenges, but without getting involved in that kind of attention grabbing stuff that you see other people doing and often having quite short or turbulent careers as a result, Daniel De Lewis comes to mind. Sure. Is Tom Hanks another one too? That's who came to my mind, but I might be wrong about that.

Speaker 2 (00:34:57):

No, that comes to mind as well. I think that celebrities get a bad rap because of the ones who do shit like that really horrible song that just got passed around. I don't know if you saw the John Lennon cover that kind of became a viral shit storm

Speaker 3 (00:35:17):

That somehow evaded me.

Speaker 2 (00:35:19):

Oh, it's really bad. So basically a bunch of actors decided that they were going to sing, imagine off of their cell phones in their beach houses. I think that they had a positive sentiment about togetherness during pandemic. If you're listening to this years later, we're in the middle of the Coronavirus Pandemic and everybody's locked down. I'm sure

Speaker 3 (00:35:44):

We're going to get to more about that in this conversation. We somehow, we've managed to not mention it so far.

Speaker 2 (00:35:49):

Yeah, no, it's coming up. But so these actors, they all sang, imagine, and then it was cut together, one person, one line, and the next person another line, but they're all in their mansions and shit and singing out of tune with no makeup on, just looking like shit, sounding like shit. And I know that it probably came from a good place. Let's try to spread some positivity in a dark time. But it came off completely out of touch from reality, and it turned on them, and it became a massive shit storm. If you haven't seen it, you really should see it. It's really pretty funny, the most horrible way possible. But you have those types of celebrities that really rub people the wrong way. And I think that celebrities as a whole get a bad rap because of that. But then you have your Daniel Day Lewises of the world, the Tom Hanks of the world, the Christian Bales of the world who just do great work and are recognized for their great work.

(00:36:57):

But there's no extra bullshit that you hear about. And I really, really respect that. And I know that on my minuscule amount of, I don't even want to say fame, just being known in this minuscule metal industry with the amount of people that I have coming at me, I can only try to imagine what it would be like for someone like Christian Bale. And it seems overwhelming, to say the least. So the fact that they're able to keep their shit together and not develop horrible drug habits and not become a Lindsay Lohan style mess, I think that says a lot. I really do respect that. Yeah, me too.

Speaker 5 (00:37:41):

Yeah, it's interesting going back to what you were saying about this cult of persoNollyty being an age old phenomena, just before this podcast started, I was watching an old primer on the philosophy of stoicism, and I think one of the things that either Epictetus or Seneca wrote was because one of the big things for the stoics was not to get caught up with the minutiae of life and kind of focus on the big picture. He was saying basically, when you're around the water cooler or the ancient Roman equivalent of the water cooler, don't talk about the gladiators of the time, don't talk about other people, talk about concepts and ideas and the ebb and flow of life. So it seems like this is something endemic to our nature, and just as you said, technology has been a force multiplier that's just turned things up to 12, and this is kind of the kind of cauldron that we live in and the things that we perceive.

Speaker 3 (00:38:30):

Yeah, absolutely. I think it can be a really negative experience to spend all of your time talking about other people in negative ways or even just being all up in other people's business and sharing that around. I think gossiping perhaps holds some social value in keeping people in line within a unified societal goal. But beyond that, I think it can really have a negative effect on you as a person. I was just reading a book.

Speaker 2 (00:38:54):

It's by Malcolm Gladwell, and I'm actually looking in my audible account right now. It's called Talking to Strangers. It talks about gossip and how gossip evolved as a way to keep people accountable to society, which if you look at it from that frame, it's actually pretty interesting. It doesn't seem so bad because basically if someone does something terrible, you can't go kill them or anything. I mean, you could, but what can you really do if they do something that is not really a crime, but also not acceptable in order to keep people in line? Reputation has formed the idea of reputation and that holding weight became something that evolved into being very, very important. Gossip is one of the things that can destroy reputation, and so apparently it evolved as a way to keep society in line socially that I think makes sense.

Speaker 3 (00:39:51):

I'm sure it's true. It just seems like it's a dangerous fire to play with. I think Absolutely. On some levels it makes sense and on other levels, I mean the risk of somebody becoming unfairly judged for something they haven't done, and that's been spread around as a group that can be equally life destroying. I mean, we're probably all watching loads of Netflix documentaries with the downtime that we've got currently, and there's so many things about innocent people in prison or having their lives ruined, even getting killed over things that they had nothing to do with. And that terrifies me. The idea of somebody just inventing some story about you or getting some fact incorrect and spending it around and it ending up having some massive effect on you.

Speaker 2 (00:40:26):

Man, when I was at Berkeley, this happened to a friend of mine, so a friend of mine and I were at a party. We were hanging out in, I always called it the alternate reality room. At every party there was 95% of the people were, and then there was the alternate reality room where a few weirdos were smoking weed and being weirdos, but it was in the alternate reality room with a friend, and this girl and her boyfriend and the boyfriend freaked out suddenly and was like, I forget her name. So let's just say Samantha, Samantha, we got to leave right now. Stay the fuck away from him. Who was pointing at my friend. I was like, what the hell's going on here? And apparently some girl got raped at some other college dorm a week ago, and this boyfriend of Samantha's had decided that this dude had done it.

(00:41:29):

I know that my friend didn't do it. We were hanging out that night all night, the night in question. So there's no possible way that he could have been in two places at once. So my friend didn't do it, and that's the only way that I know he didn't do it right. If I wasn't there, I can't know. But I know that the night of the party, he was hanging out with me. So he didn't do it, but he was being accused of it. And the boyfriend obviously was just acting out of self-defense and trying to protect his girlfriend. Completely understandable. But where he came up with the idea that my friend had done this, I will never understand. And thankfully it was cleared up right then and there in the room, and it didn't go any further. But you can see, and that could have potentially destroyed his life and something that we didn't even know anybody at that school. We have no idea who this girl that got raped was, or what group of friends they were in or anything. You're complete strangers. We weren't even in the same social circles as that one accusation and spread through the power of gossip can have disastrous effects. And I think you're right. It is very, very frightening. I've seen it firsthand.

Speaker 3 (00:42:52):

Yeah. Well, we don't have water coolers to gather around and gossip around at the moment. So yeah, probably a good thing, but I think it's definitely a good point that you make. It's probably better to make your interactions focused on positivity or creativity at least, and not just talking about other people and kind of secretly harboring desires to be like those people, but instead outwardly claiming to pass some kind of negative judgment on them, which seems to be what a lot of gossips about.

Speaker 5 (00:43:19):

I think in the last podcast you brought up Sam Harris a lot and mindfulness meditation. I think in the same sense I've been discovering that I've been walking along parallels with the philosophy of stoicism over the last however many years it's been, where a few of the things that really resonated with me was their adherence to this idea to really not focus on minutia and just let the little things pass. So one of their big four virtues. But you're a mastering engineer, dude. Well, how does that work?

Speaker 3 (00:43:49):

Sorry, continue. We can get to that.

Speaker 5 (00:43:52):

Yeah, yeah, no, please. We can explore that at length if you like. But yeah, the funny thing about that is was this based on the backlash that you guys got, based on those topics from the last podcast, people weren't ready to delve into other topics or what do you mean?

Speaker 3 (00:44:07):

Was there a backlash? I wasn't aware of one,

Speaker 5 (00:44:09):

No. Oh, no, no, no, no. I think backlash is probably the wrong word. I was just curious how people took our big detour into philosophy and meditation and all that stuff for the last podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:44:19):

Oh, okay. I was going to say backlash.

Speaker 5 (00:44:21):

No, no. Wrong word.

Speaker 2 (00:44:23):

Entirely the wrong. That is not the right word, because it's, to this day, one of the most brought up episodes in a positive way.

Speaker 5 (00:44:31):

That's fantastic.

Speaker 2 (00:44:32):

I don't really hear about the episodes that people didn't like. Only once we had a guest on where I had to pull the episode down, the guest was just a fucking asshole to our audience, and

(00:44:45):

It was not cool at all. And we published it and never have my friends hit me up all together independently been like, Hey, man, that episode's going too far. You need to take it down. When trusted friends hit me up and all say that, I'll listen. But anyway, so I don't really hear about the ones that people don't like. I think they just kind of sink into obscurity. But the one that we did, people loved, I loved it. It was one of my favorite episodes to do if all I was doing on here was talking about compressor settings and what's your favorite microphone? I would've quit doing this a long time ago, and I've switched the format from when it started. It was mostly about recording techniques, mixing techniques, and I was doing it with my partner's co-hosts, but then they kind of lost interest in podcasting because talking about compressor settings, you can only talk about that for so long before you want to shoot yourself. But I love talking to people. I love great conversations. And so my aim has been to try to go past all that and any chance that I get to speak to people where audio is just, it's kind of our common bond, but we're talking about deeper things. I love that. And those episodes tend to get the best reaction, actually. So I always say the opposite of backlash. I think people loved that episode.

Speaker 4 (00:46:21):

That's

Speaker 3 (00:46:21):

Awesome.

Speaker 4 (00:46:22):

That's fantastic.

Speaker 3 (00:46:22):

I feel sorry for interrupting you now. I'm as humorous as I thought it was at the time. By all means, continue about the stoicism and your parallel path that you've been on.

Speaker 5 (00:46:30):

What's really interesting is I was on that sort of a thought stream that what you mentioned, it just completely kind of knocked me out. And because it's so late here, I wasn't able to pivot my mind and go, Hey, okay, that's what was going on. So again, backlash definitely not the right word, but getting back to what I was quickly going to get through is one of the cool things about stoicism is a really big focus on one of its core virtues, which is temperance. And a lot of that is about self-control and letting the moment pass and avoiding emotional extremes, which is so relevant to modern society, whether it be avoiding random pointless arguments on social media, or not just abusing someone out of your car when you're on your way to work. There are so many things where I'm finding that the further back into history that I go philosophically, the more and more conceptually I find things that are relevant to modern day life that we seem to have either let go of or forgotten about. So that's one of the things that's been kind of interesting over the last couple of months for me.

Speaker 3 (00:47:26):

I see how that ties into the idea of people being same throughout the ages.

Speaker 2 (00:47:30):

Yeah, I mean, 2000 years ago, it wasn't that long ago. In the grand scheme of things, that's probably less than 2% in the timeline of modern human history. So it's not that long ago. I don't really believe that human issues change. I think the only thing that changes is the setting. There's no reason for why we would be different. I mean, we're anatomically physiologically the same.

Speaker 5 (00:47:59):

We are taller though due to selective breeding, but other than that, we're much the same.

Speaker 2 (00:48:04):

Yeah, I mean, sure, some differences of course, but our brains are pretty much the same.

Speaker 3 (00:48:11):

I

Speaker 2 (00:48:11):

Don't think society, I mean, obviously I wasn't there, but I just don't think shit changes when it comes to people, at least not that fast. So I think that that ancient wisdom still, it still applies.

Speaker 3 (00:48:25):

Yeah, I think I remember reading that our brains are no more advanced than they would've been, and I can't even say how many years ago, but going a long, long way into the past, there's no evidence to suggest that we're capable of any more advanced processing in our brains than any humans that we'd recognize in the past. It's just we're getting bombarded with so much information, I guess perhaps getting more used to making sense of it all. But yeah, people were really damn smart even many thousands of years ago.

Speaker 2 (00:48:52):

And in some ways, we take for granted a lot of the things that we do now that involve thousands of life and death decisions. We take it for granted. We think that we're all comfy in our society, in our modern world because we're not getting eaten by tigers. But take driving for instance. You have the opportunity to kill yourself and other people every single time you get into a vehicle, and it's thousands of micro calculations you don't even realize are happening, which keep you driving in the lane and from not hitting a person from not driving into another car. But it's so common to us is such a normal part of life that we don't think about it, but we're engaging in very dangerous activities on a regular basis where it truly is a life or death outcome. And we normalize it just because, because it's exactly that it, it's normal. But I think if anything, I'm really, really impressed by the amount of information that a human is able to take in and normalize in their behavior. So I do agree that technology is advancing faster than the human mind can keep up with it, but give us a little bit of credit, pretty amazing that we can do the things we do, like drive cars and fly airplanes, basically.

Speaker 3 (00:50:24):

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 5 (00:50:26):

Yeah, it's considering that all of those are basically learned behaviors that you could have taught an ancient human. I mean, our capacity mentally is exactly the same. So I think it's one of the reasons that I always suggest to people to be extremely mindful of where we came from, because people have this really weird idea when we think back on events like let's say World War II or the Holocaust, they think that we've kind of innately volved those behaviors. Nope,

Speaker 2 (00:50:52):

Definitely not.

Speaker 5 (00:50:53):

Haven't. All you have to do is look at the current social climate, the current political climate. People are still predisposed towards the same behaviors, and you need to be mindful of what you capable of and what you are shortfalls are as a human being, to not walk those patterns again. So it's really important to be mindful of that sort of stuff. I

Speaker 3 (00:51:10):

Say it's also really important to respect the infrastructure and the way our society's developed to prevent those things from getting out of hand. I mean, you can see the negative impact that conspiracy theorying is happening. It's hard to say You made a word I did. Yeah, that's my brain just advancing right there and then, yeah, you can see the negative effect that conspiracy theories about what we're going through at the moment is having, I mean, I was just reading in the news about hospital over here that had its connection cut off like mobile phones and cell signal was completely eliminated of people trying to set fire to a phone mast in its vicinity. And I mean people because of 5G. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:51:49):

Exactly. Oh my God.

Speaker 3 (00:51:51):

I think it would be really great if as a species we could become really selective about what information we take on board, whether it makes sense logically, because there's a reason why we have all of the structure around us that we do now, and it's kind of to help us get through events like we're going through at the moment in a different way to how we got through previous pandemics a hundred years ago that wiped up billions of people.

Speaker 2 (00:52:14):

It's so dangerous because it's a double-edged sword on the one hand, who gets to decide what information is correct, right. If you limit people's ability to spread information on the basis of wanting to ensure that it's correct, that's awesome. That's great intentions. But what if you get a bad actor in there? So there you have a model for the type of country where the government owns the media and controls the entire flow of information.

(00:52:50):

On the other hand, the problem you're seeing in the Western world right now is the pendulum on the other side where everybody has equal access to spreading their stupid fucking opinions and bad ideas can spread like wildfire. Because I think, and this has to do with humans not catching up to the technology too. I think that while we are very rational in some ways, we haven't quite figured out how to completely process all the coming at us, all the information coming at us, and we still will make impulsive and irrational emotional based reactions basically to things coming our way. And I think that that impulse is so strong in us that unless you're very, very mindful of it, you can get swayed by bad info if it's conveyed in a, I guess, convincing enough way. So I think there's dangers on both sides. It's one of the downsides I think, of our current world. But on the other hand, what's the solution to it? Because like I said, the pendulum and the other way, you get a totalitarian style of living, which is also not good.

Speaker 3 (00:54:15):

I think probably just more airtime being given to actual expertise and less politicizing of major events, which don't really require political input. I think it requires all of us really learning, and we're facing an uphill battle with the way that social media is going, the way that the algorithms function now, they can pretty much tell how to sway you. I mean, I like to think that I'm fairly logical and considerate about my opinions, but the reality is I'm probably not at all. If something's put to me in a way that seems scientific and logical and kind of ticks my boxes, I could probably be made to believe more or less anything. So, well, you're human. Yeah. I think we probably all just need to be aware of that and expose ourselves to just the right amount of opposing information.

Speaker 2 (00:55:00):

What's interesting too is about the way the algorithms work is, I don't think it's some nefarious plot. It's also coming from a place of, I don't want to say altruistic intention, but there's a reason for why the algorithm works the way it does. The people who run these massive social media sites want you to stay on the site, and so they want you to have the best experience possible. And even though there's a financial motive like targeting you for the right kinds of ads, well think about it so that if your interest is cars and recording, you're not getting hit with random ads for basket weaving. You'll get ads for cars and recording, and that'll keep you engaged. And I think that that's a really good thing. It morphs itself to your interests. It's beautiful in concept. But then also the byproduct is you get into an echo chamber, you only see things that are in line with however narrow your worldview is or your interests are, and it's very, very hard to see outside of that unless you're looking, because you kind of don't know what you don't know. If all you do is use social media and you're not thinking about the fact that these sites are morphing themselves to your interests and you don't consume sources from anyplace else. Well yeah, that's going to shape your worldview and if you're getting bad info, then you'll believe bad info. True.

Speaker 5 (00:56:38):

It was a very interesting bearing witness to this, and I'm a layman here. I don't really delve into this much, but bearing witness to the last US presidential election as presented online and obviously being in the music industry we're highly liberal leaning, and that's basically the majority of what I saw. I saw the smugness of the liberal media and how they were convinced that they were going to win and et cetera, et cetera. And obviously history tells a very different story. And it was interesting to see how out of touch everybody was with the actual sentiment on the ground with the average person simply because of those echo chambers. So I think in a sense it can be kind of a dangerous thing to do to segment people to that degree, to almost believe the other side doesn't actually exist. You almost don't account for that reality, and I think we need to get, there's been a really fascinating documentary made about this called Hypernormalization by Adam Curtis.

(00:57:29):

I would strongly recommend it to anyone fascinated by this sort of stuff. He did a really, really good documentary that the sixth record that we worked on was actually based on called The Century of the Self. Some amazing documentaries about recent human history and the sort of political and social developments that have shaped our emergence, let's say over the last hundred or so years. And Hypernormalization focuses on this idea that reality isn't really an absolute, it's something that can very much be contrived and controlled to suit narratives or to suit circumstances. So stuff that's worth being mindful of,

Speaker 2 (00:58:07):

You're the second person to recommend that documentary to me.

Speaker 5 (00:58:10):

Well, that Hypernormalization or century of the Self

Speaker 2 (00:58:13):

Hypernormalization, my friend Jesse Cannon, who's a really smart person I respect a lot. He's one of those people that even if I don't share viewpoints with him all the time, we have a great relationship. Not to veer off topic, but I'm just bringing him up because to me he's proof that it's possible to be friends with people who feel differently than yourself. If there's ever something in the news that I don't agree with that I know he does, I'll just ask him about it and not because I'm trying to challenge him, I just want to understand because he's a rational, sane person and I trust his mind, so I'll hit him up and we'll talk about it and sometimes what he says will make perfect sense and change my viewpoint. Other times I still think that he's wrong, but it's okay. But anyways, he has told me about hyper normalization and has recommended it.

(00:59:10):

So now that's two people that I respect saying it. What's interesting about those echo chambers, the comedians were basically the ones sounding the alarm about this because comedians, they tour everywhere, so they go, they don't just stick to the coasts, they go everywhere, kind of like musicians do. And they were the ones saying that people's perception of what the sentiment was, at least on the coasts was very, very different than the reality of the situation. And yeah, it is very, very dangerous. You begin believing that echo chamber is actually reality. I don't think reality is the part that's malleable. I think it's our perception of reality, what's malleable.

Speaker 5 (00:59:59):

Yeah,

Speaker 3 (01:00:00):

That's pretty much all we have. That's our only way of interfacing with reality, isn't it?

Speaker 5 (01:00:03):

I was going to say, at a certain point you have to defer to somebody else's perception or presentation of events. You can't be in all places at all times and you can't form a first person sort of a perspective on everything because I mean, we're obviously very limited. The world is a very large place and there's only so many things you can study or so many places you can be at a given time. So you kind of have to assign confidence to some entity, to some source of information. And I think the scariest part in this day and age is knowing where to do that, who's not going to mislead you, whose interests are pure and whether such a thing actually exists. So it's a fascinating place to be.

Speaker 2 (01:00:43):

I think it's frightening. That's actually one of my big problems with this time period is not knowing who to trust for info. I love technology, I love social media. I'm cool with most of this stuff. I love digital audio. I'm cool with technology, but what I'm not cool with is not understanding what to believe. And it's on a very, very deep level right now. I've seen so many stories that became mainstream that then came out to be lies or based on a mistake. I've seen it so many times in the past four years that I'm curious, I'd like to hear from both of you. How do you guys go about believing that something is real? What makes you decide, okay, this is legit?

Speaker 3 (01:01:38):

Yeah, I mean, it's a real thing what you're talking about. I think, I feel perhaps you didn't use this word, but I feel a bit apathetic towards some of these things because yeah, it's like how do I know whether any of this is real in the first place? I think I probably have an unhealthy trust for news reported by the major sites that don't seem as partisan. I mean, in the states, it seems like you have some really partisan news sources, and I know they are too. In the UK you could say that, but I think here in the uk, I mean, again, maybe I'm wrong to do so, but I put quite a lot of faith in the BBC news and I try and look beyond the pages, which are just about the top stories and go to the news which shows what's happening in the rest of the world.

(01:02:22):

I'm quite interested in what's happening in Latin America because my wife's from Latin America and I am really interested about what's happening there, and it can be really tough to find news about major events that we know are happening there. We know people there. Again, that Sam Harris podcast has proved really a constant source of news and what I believe to be rational conversation about it. As much as Sam Harris can be biased in his ways, he seems to realize that he is and genuinely want to get to the bottom of what's there. So combination of kind of mainstream news that seems relatively unbiased to me, combined with people that seem genuinely want to, to challenge their own perspective on things. But I definitely do feel a sense of apathy in a way that I think you're describing where it's a bit like, well, who really knows what's happening? At the end of the day, you could tell me none of this was real and I wouldn't be that shot. It's disappointing is it would be.

Speaker 2 (01:03:14):

The thing about Sam Harris that I think is great is, look, I don't always agree with everything he thinks, and I don't agree with everything anybody. I don't agree with everything that anybody thinks, but what I love about him is that he's more than willing to talk to the most intelligent people from the opposite side of where he thinks he's coming from. He doesn't do what a lot of podcasters or social media intellectuals do, which is only talk to the idiots on the other side. You'll see that a lot that people will, they'll interview idiots and then make it look like that's what the other side is, which I think is really low. He'll talk to the intelligent people, the ones that are actually rational, and that's what I really, really love about listening to him. It's regardless of his viewpoint, you'll never hear a dumb ass on his podcast, which I think is beautiful, but man, that apathy you're talking about.

(01:04:21):

When I started to feel that way or why it wasn't just the news stories, it was also what I was seeing on social media. Somewhere around 2015, I started to notice that friends of mine that are intelligent, these are not idiots. They're not those crazy people that you see online that you haven't seen for 20 years and they're life went off the rails and they were always a little nuts and they're just posting some rant. These are people that I know in real life that are very intelligent, have their shit together, kind of people, but they would post memes or ideas or spread an article or something that was clearly wrong. They'll post a picture of something and be like, look at this atrocity, but the picture would've be of a completely different event. And I'd ask them about it. I'd be like, look, man, that picture that you posted isn't what you say it is.

(01:05:27):

Here's the proof. And they'll say, yeah, but this kind of stuff happens, so it's okay to leave that up. There it is about the thought that counts. And I think that that idea right there, I've seen it so many times among so many people, I assume that that is a widespread behavior. And once I saw that it's not just the news who's doing this, it's people are willingly deceiving themselves and willingly deceiving other people in order to get a point across. That's when I started to check out a little bit, because if the people that I know and trust and respect are doing it that much, then that means everybody's doing it.

Speaker 3 (01:06:14):

It's a breakdown of communication at that point, isn't it? If you can't trust that the other person is coming from a place of honesty, then you can't really have any kind of meaningful communication around that topic and it, it's depressing.

Speaker 2 (01:06:25):

Yeah, that's why I have a filter on Facebook called Facebook Purity basically. I actually posted about this yesterday. I started a 5G rant. I was writing a post and the post said, I'll read it. It made me chuckle. I didn't want to say anything, but I have to you fucking idiots and your 5G stop. And then I didn't post it, and then I made a post about my Facebook filter, and what I do with the filter is anytime there's a topic that I see is going viral, I'll put it in the filter so that Facebook doesn't show it to me anymore. It's made my life a lot easier that way. I don't get riled up by this stuff. So I added 5G to that filter. I don't want to see my friends that I respect pushing these ideas. I don't want to stop respecting my friends. I'll end up having bad relationships with everybody. But what about you? Where do you get your info from? How do you know what to trust?

Speaker 5 (01:07:27):

Well, it's funny that you mentioned that about the Facebook filter. I actually recently installed one myself, and it's basically called the newsfeed obliterated. It just kind of stops you from using Facebook entirely, and it was one of the best things I've ever done in my life, like truly, truly wholeheartedly. I started listening to audiobooks almost immediately after to fill in the vast wads of new time that I've gained from not mindlessly flicking through the newsfeed. I find myself experiencing less kind of emotional extremes, even on a micro spikes as you kind of read through your newsfeed and go, oh God, that fucking idiot. Who? Oh God, why would you post that? Why would you say that you no longer have that as part of your day-to-day routine? So that actually helps level you out, and I think it's been a really positive thing for me and much the same with Instagram. I try and avoid it. But to go back, to go back in terms of a meta sense of where you get your actual information about the state of the world and everything, not to harp on about it for too much, but if we, let's say, revisit the philosophy of stoicism, one of the main things that you take from it is you only have so many fucks to give on a given day, and you only have so many.

Speaker 2 (01:08:34):

Only you have a hundred percent of fucks to give.

Speaker 5 (01:08:36):

Yeah. Well, the thing is that once you deplete those fucks, you are pretty much done. I mean, you are drained emotionally, you are drained psychologically, and if you are giving those fucks to things that are outside of the realm of your control, then that's completely counterproductive. It doesn't help anybody. You need to make sure that if you do care and are invested in something that you exert some sphere of control over it or attempt to for years and years past, my friend and I used to be, I guess unquote what you want to call activists. We used to go to rallies, super pro liberal, really, really kind of chasing that whole thing, especially as certain things were happening here in Australia back closer to 2012. Now, nothing came of that for me. My life just got worse in every sense. We kept losing every battle because the right wing is so entrenched here, and on a personal level, I was just losing out.

(01:09:28):

I wasn't chasing my business, I wasn't chasing my skillset, I wasn't growing as a person. I was just kind of wasting all of my time on these kind of activism events that really never eventuated, nor did the public want anything to do with us. We were always represented as dirty hippies or communists or that sort of stuff. So at a certain point I'm like, well, man, shit, if you don't give a fuck about me, I'm not going to give a fuck about you. So I'm going to, I dunno, close myself back into my shell, recalibrate, recalibrate and kind of build from the ground up rather than trying to affect the world being nobody. So I would try and build my own clout and my own skillset and then bring those close to me into those ventures like let's say submission audio, which has allowed me to bring some of my old friends and colleagues on board into something that's finally profitable for them in the audio industry and things like that. And my life has become so much better when I focus on the things that I can actually exert tangible control over rather than being so scattered and angry about all of these things happening in the wider world around me. That's probably the most practical wisdom I can offer to some of the younger guys out there.

Speaker 2 (01:10:38):

Man, thank you for saying that. I want to echo what you just said. First of all before I go on, I actually just did a podcast with Mick Gordon like two weeks ago. Hell yeah. We talked about this topic. It's a great episode. I think everyone should listen to it. He's such a smart dude. Episode 2 61. But we talked about control and about worrying about the things that you can control. So about three or four years ago, or maybe three years ago, someone that we all know who is a pretty popular social media guitar player, he's actually really, really talented. He hit me up on messenger, I think he must've been drunk, but he started bitching me out and basically saying, why don't you use your platform to spread this message? And I'm not going to say what message it was. Let's just say it was whatever political ideology he subscribed to, he believed in it so much that he wanted to spread it to the rest of the world.

(01:11:43):

And he was mad at me because I wasn't using my platform of URM to spread that message, and he felt that I was being irresponsible because there are bigger things in the world than recording. And okay, yeah, there are bigger things in the world than recording, but my philosophy on this is I'm going to make my corner of the world better. So my corner of the world is music, musicians, audio producers. So I'm going to help people who want to do audio for real. I'm going to help them. I'm going to help people who maybe they don't want to do it professionally, but they just want to get better at it. And I'm going to help my friends who are professionals try to help them become more known, which I think is more important than ever with the amount of producers you have in the world.

(01:12:42):

And I'm going to do my best to raise the bar for people in as much as I can. And not only that, I'm going to try to employ some people so that they don't have to have a job that they hate and they can pay their bills, and that's all I can do. And I think that that's a much better use of my time than worrying about causes that I have no control over what I just mentioned. That's stuff I can control. I can actually help people get better at this audio thing. I can actually help my friends who are producers become more known. I can actually pay employees. So in my little corner of the world, I feel like I'm doing good. I thought it was interesting though that this dude thought I was being irresponsible. Now I feel like if I had listened to him and gone in that direction, I would've just been bringing tons of problems into my life, kind of in the same way that you said that when you were becoming an activist, you had these lofty goals you were going after, but nobody fucking cared and you were just making your own life worse.

(01:13:57):

And then by focusing on yourself and focusing on what benefit you can actually bring to the people around you by helping them make money through music and making products that people can use to make their own music better. Maybe it's not developing a vaccine, so what This is your corner of the world and you're doing your part to make it better. And I think that's the most that we can expect out of anybody. So I see it.

Speaker 5 (01:14:27):

Yeah, I think due to the way that we've kind of grown up and evolved over the eons, we work best in small groups and ultimately when you focus on yourself and the tribe around you and bringing that up, I think that has a net effect of improving the world across the board rather than trying to go top down. At least that's my take.

Speaker 3 (01:14:46):

Yeah, I think as long as you're not talking about your tribe and ending the boundary there, I think tribalism is probably something the world's going to get pretty with over the next few months and something we definitely need to keep at bay.

Speaker 2 (01:14:57):

Oh yeah, I agree. I don't know if tribe's the best word here. I completely agree with you on tribalism being dangerous, and I'm sure that this is what you meant, but I personally just meant I can only control my little corner of the world and try to influence that positively.

Speaker 3 (01:15:15):

Yeah, apologies. It was probably a bit severe to jump on that one word. I do understand the sentiment that you mean, and I think it's a very, very good one to concentrate on positivity in the world that you can actually affect.

Speaker 5 (01:15:26):

Yeah, yeah. I think if that tribe encompasses, let's say in your case al the entire recording community that you can reach and affect and improve, then that's essentially what I mean. I don't mean like me and my immediate family and then the rest of the world can burn and everything else can go to the dog sort of thing. But you have to show a certain, I dunno, there's a line in the sand for us because as far as tribalism goes, it can be very dangerous politically. That's something we've seen. Bipartisan politics is extremely dangerous and extremely divisive and binary and just really limiting and someone's thought stream. But at the same time, when it comes to us being productive as individuals or on a ground level, we tend to work best in small teams. Our brains work best when we're not conceptualizing everything like the larger picture. So there's an element of tribalism that is very helpful to us simply because of our biology. I think if you're mindful of that, you can use it in positive ways rather than the divisive negative ones.

Speaker 3 (01:16:24):

Yeah. I've got something I wanted to throw to you guys that's coming to my mind while we've been talking that's kind of related to these topics, but it's something which I've become more aware of as I've had a bit more kind of downtime, especially in evenings and whatnot. I've noticed that some of these days I've been spending an inordinate amount of time talking with friends, fellow guys that are into recording or musicians and just geeking out hardcore, really geeking out crazily about recording and guitars and gear and stuff. And I've noticed that I feel like a way more irritable person after a day of doing that than I do if I haven't been as connected with that kind of part of my interest. And I think it's interesting because something which I really enjoy, I have a lot of enjoyment for talking about these things that I care about, but at the same time, it's draining in a way and I think I'm going to try and make a more concerted effort to make sure that I'm getting other sorts of interaction in my day in order to not just end up having my mind spin around constantly about production and gear and music.

(01:17:22):

Have you guys experienced anything like that?

Speaker 2 (01:17:24):

I have a question. What do you think is causing that?

Speaker 3 (01:17:27):

I think it's just a hyper focusness on one thing and it's definitely, if we were to talk about mindfulness for a second, it's definitely taken me way out of the real world and into a very internal kind of just internal thought kind of existence. Sorry, that's a really bad description. But essentially I'm really retreated into my own skull for a times a large portion of the day if I'm doing that. And then when I come back out into the real world, I'm like, I'm just not connected with it at all.

Speaker 2 (01:17:54):

So I'm just trying to understand, before this lockdown happened, would you say that you were interacting with people less about this stuff, you were just kind of doing your work and interacting about audio and music as per required for your work and maybe a little more, but then the rest of the time kind of focused on the rest of your life?

Speaker 3 (01:18:19):

I wish I could say it as healthy as that. It's definitely always had an element of this and sometimes quite a large element depending on what I'm working on. And if I'm doing some kind of project with GGD or some kind of product development, then a lot of my time is spent doing research and thinking about these things. But it's just all, we've got less things to do in our day now and maybe it's been there for a while, but it just seems to have become more apparent to me recently.

Speaker 2 (01:18:47):

So one thing that I have noticed before this crisis, this is something that I've just noticed over the years, and it might be related to what you're saying, I have a harder time, and this is progressive, it gets more intense with every year that goes by, but I have a harder time hanging out with people and just talking than I did before. And I don't mean in a podcast scenario, but I mean just open-ended shooting, the shit geeking out. I have a lower and lower tolerance for it as time goes by, even if it's on topics that I like, I start to get frustrated because I feel like, man, I feel like I'm wasting my time in a way because we're just mouth flapping basically.

Speaker 3 (01:19:41):

I think it's something which is pretty well recognized that with age comes more and more disdain for small talk, I think. Is that what you're describing?

Speaker 2 (01:19:49):

Yeah, but it's not small talk because we're talking about things that I'm interested in. It's just that I just keep asking myself what's the point?

(01:19:58):

And then I notice that I experience more burnout too because I'm working on this stuff at a hundred percent and then I'm talking to people about it in full fledged conversations and I start to lose balance in my life and balance is already really, really hard to achieve. But I'm always happiest when I can exercise and listen to books or podcasts that have nothing to do with audio, think about things that have nothing to do with audio. And if all I'm doing all day long is audio related stuff, I start to feel like my brain is starting to fry kind of and I become more irritable.

Speaker 3 (01:20:44):

That sounds somewhat similar to what I'm describing. Perhaps during this lockdown. Are you sharing a space with anybody or are you just on your own? I'm

Speaker 2 (01:20:51):

In a very interesting scenario. I'm in my mom's house. It's a really, really big house, thank God because when the stalkers showed up, so like I told you, I was going through this breakup amicable, and we were going to part ways at the end of February, I believe, or end of February. And so I was planning on basically taking February to find a place to go and move in at March 1st. Well, this stalker showed up, so out of wanting to secure us and not get killed, I was just like, where can I go? I'm going to go to my mom's house and I'll start looking at apartments from there. It's a really big house, thankfully, but I kind of got stuck here as I was looking for places. This situation just started to unravel and before I knew it, it was impossible to look for places. So I'm kind of stuck around family, which is not so bad sometimes I would rather be by myself, but that's why I keep saying, thank God this house is big. I can just be in my own world and not have to interact with people.

Speaker 3 (01:22:06):

Yeah, that sounds more positive than just being stuck there on your own. I dunno what your situation's like Emma, are you on your own?

Speaker 5 (01:22:13):

I'm in actually a very similar position as Al. I'm kind of in between relocating and I was kind of on my way to make all of that happen. I spent a lot of last year traversing through Europe to try and find a place to relocate to. I ended up at a midway point living with my mother also while all of this blows over. So I'm in a very bizarre position. Unfortunately not as big a house as als, so the mania and the claustrophobia and stuff really starts to kick in a little bit. So certainly not as grounded as I would like to be, but it's been, I remember I said this to my friends really early on, this is a really good test of my philosophical convictions. If I can make it through this with my sanity intact, then obviously the things I'm thinking or the things that I'm chasing are correct. So it's an interesting position to be at. And again, to harp on it ad nauseum, the stoicism thing is embrace the adversity and love fate even if the fate is shit. So here we are in Corona

Speaker 3 (01:23:10):

For the Wind. Oh man, I am totally blanking on the name of this guy, but there was a very famous guru that died last year, a western guru who really popularized Buddhist concepts and he died in one of the things which I read in the obituary. What I read was quote from this guy, but it was something like, if you think you are a master of meditation, try spending a week with your family.

Speaker 5 (01:23:33):

Good sentiment.

Speaker 3 (01:23:34):

This is coming from this guy who is so I totally feel for you. I think though on balance it's probably more healthy to have some kind of social interaction, especially with people that aren't just involved with what you do for a job in the way that we're describing it as trying as it might be at times. It might be just the thing that your brain needs to not just get completely siloed up in work and music.

Speaker 2 (01:23:57):

Well, I am number one, extremely thankful that I'm not stuck with my ex. I love her and all great person, but we split for a reason and if this had happened three months earlier, I'd be in a very different state of mind right now. I know I'd be feeling the claustrophobia. Also, I've been planning on moving to the west coast within a year or two, so this is a great opportunity to spend time with the family.

(01:24:28):

Mom's getting older, it is what it is, reality of life. So it's actually a really nice opportunity and I needed also to stop traveling for a bit so I could focus on my fitness and personal things and it just wasn't happening. There was no break in sight ever, like nail the mix does not stop. It just goes on and on and on. So getting to just focus for a few months is actually working out beautifully. This is probably the best way it could have happened, though I would be fine being alone too. True. I have no issues with that at all. It's kind of my natural state, so

Speaker 3 (01:25:10):

I'd be okay. I definitely feel, when I think about it, I feel for, there's probably people listening to this podcast that are stuck in similar situations to the one you just described, maybe having broken up during this or just being on their own and being in a small place and not having any work coming in and stuff like that. And I just think about how bad it could be. I feel very

Speaker 2 (01:25:27):

Grateful. I think a lot of people are not okay with being alone. I realize that that's not normal, but I do think that even if that doesn't come as normal to you, there's a lot of benefit in being able to be alone and not get lonely and not go crazy. There's a lot of good that can come out of being comfortable in your own skin and comfortable with your brain. One of the things that I've noticed online is you're seeing people crack from this because they don't know what to do with themselves. And I hope for those people that they take this opportunity to learn how to be at peace with themselves because I realize we're social beings, but you should be able to hang out with yourself and be okay, and if not, there's a reason for it. And this is a perfect opportunity to figure out what that reason is. Why is it that you need constant stimulation from external sources or you go nuts if that's you? Have you asked yourself why might be a good thing to figure out. I'm not judging, but it just might be a good thing to figure out. Absolutely. Agreed. Highly recommend it for people. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:26:51):

Yeah. I don't think everybody is unfortunately, well, I dunno if it's unfortunate or not, but not everybody is geared to be the kind of introvert persona. And while it can be a really good persoNollyty type to have under these circumstances that was built for quarantine, yeah, likewise man, but many people weren't. Many people need that partying. They need the social stimulation, they need the water cooler talk about nothing. And as fruitless as that may be, ultimately that kind of small talk, it serves a purpose for us and certainly for people that are geared towards, there are a lot of people out there that are wired to not have a conversation to achieve some deeper understanding or a meeting of the minds. They just facilitate a conversation in order to have a conversation. And that's just kind of the way that they're biologically built. And I mean as insufferable as I find that personally, I understand that it's a valid condition to be in. So I think those people would definitely be getting hit a lot harder than say you or I would. And Nolie, I'm not implying that you frivolous small talk, man. Sorry, my brain is leaving me completely.

Speaker 2 (01:27:58):

I think I'm in a similar boat. Nolly is the last person I would expect to frivolous small talk, but I really do think that even if you're wired to need that social stimulation, if this is driving you nuts, you should figure out why. I get that some people are introverts, some people are extroverts, some people are mourning people, some people are not. We all have our natural tendencies, but if being alone freaks you out and just having just basic, I mean being alone with your thoughts, if that makes you nuts, there's got to be a reason for it. I know extroverts who are perfectly okay to be alone with their thoughts. A shrink once explained it to me like this, an introvert gets recharged by being alone, so social interaction drains them and then they need to be alone to recharge. An extrovert gets their energy from social interaction and then when they're alone, that's when they get drained. But an introvert can still be social and an extrovert can still be alone. It's all about balance and about what your natural tendencies are. But if you're so introverted that being around people freaks you out, like you have social anxiety disorder, that's a problem too, which you should figure out. Just like if you're an extrovert and you get anxiety from being alone, well, you should figure that out too. These are just basic tendencies that people might have that you should still be able to overcome. People overcome them all the time.

Speaker 3 (01:29:36):

Yeah, ultimately life throws at us things and we take them based on how we're wired and it pretty much always presents challenges. So I think it is kind of the journey of all our lifetimes to unlock our own mind and to understand why we do the things we do and why we feel the way that we do in some attempt to maybe through that process end up as better people.

Speaker 2 (01:29:55):

I've always thought that the battle with yourself is the hardest thing and the rest of the world is easy. Once you've conquered that, it's

Speaker 3 (01:30:04):

Pretty much all a battle with yourself at the end of the day. It goes back to that thing about how we perceive reality around us. It's all based on that.

Speaker 2 (01:30:11):

So you didn't tell us, are you at home with your wife? That's what you're doing?

Speaker 3 (01:30:17):

Yeah. I'm luckily at home with my wife who keeps me on the straight and narrow and there's no one I'd rather be locked up with. So I'm pretty grateful about that. She's awesome. Well, that's great. And we have enough space here that we've got, she's very creative, but we're almost diametrically opposed in certain ways, and that's a source of great, well great entertainment I suppose, and it's a really, really good situation for me to be in, so I'm very grateful for that.

Speaker 2 (01:30:43):

Good. I'm really, really glad to hear that time for a quick word from our not sponsors. I hope that you're enjoying this episode as much as I enjoyed recording it. I want to take a second to shout out road microphones and Jason Turnbull over there who has hooked me up and URM up and actually Ermin up as well, and pretty much the entire metal community who is doing podcasts and vocal recording. I don't normally talk up companies because I like to remain impartial, but every once in a while somebody goes above and beyond with quality or with the way that they take care of people and Road deserves a shout out. I am right now using a pro caster and a road caster, and I think it's the best. My voice has sounded in five years of the URM podcast. So if you're looking to start a podcast or do anything with vocal recording, check out road microphones.

(01:31:47):

If you're enjoying this podcast, then you should know that it's brought to you by URM Academy, URM Academy's mission is to create the next generation of audio professionals by giving them the inspiration and information to hone their craft and build a career doing what they love. You've probably heard me talk about Nail the Mix before, and if you're a member, you already know how amazing it is. The beginning of the month, nail the mix members, get the raw multi-tracks to a new song by artists like Lama God Angels and Airwaves, knock loose eth masu shuga, bring me the Horizon Gaira asking Alexandria Machine Head and Papa Roach among many, many others over 60 at this point. Then at the end of the month, the producer who mixed it comes on and does a live streaming walkthrough of exactly how they mix the song on the album and takes your questions live on air.

(01:32:38):

And these are guys like TLA Will Putney, Jenz Borin, Dan Lancaster to I Matson, Andrew Wade, and many, many more. You'll also get access to Mix Lab, which is our collection of dozens of bite-sized mixing tutorials that cover all the basics as well as Portfolio Builder, which is a library of pro quality multi-tracks cleared for use in your portfolio. So your career will never again be held back by the quality of your source material. And for those of you who really want to step up their game, we have another membership tier called URM Enhance, which includes everything I already told you about and access to our massive library of fast tracks, which are deep, super detailed courses on intermediate and advanced topics like game staging, mastering low end and so forth. It's over 500 hours of content. And man, let me tell you, this stuff is just insanely detailed. Enhanced members also get access to one-on-ones, which are basically office hour sessions with us and Mix Rescue, which is where we open up one of your mixes and fix it up and talk you through exactly what we're doing at every step. So if any of that sounds interesting to you, if you're ready to level up your mixing skills in your audio career, head over to URM Academy to find out more.

Speaker 3 (01:33:55):

How about work for you guys? Are you able to continue with nail the mix in these times, for example?

Speaker 2 (01:34:00):

That's what I was about to ask you guys about. Okay, so with Nail the mix, what's interesting is we're continuing with everything that we possibly can continue. So we're releasing the tracks, we're doing the q and as, we're doing the mix polls and we're just postponing the live event until travel opens back up and it's safe to go. And we're being very upfront with the community and letting them know that if they were subscribed during a month where it got postponed, even if they're not subscribed later, like say Travel opens back up in September and they're no longer members, they will still get a link to watch that live stream. So nobody is going to miss out on anything that they paid for and to make up for the lack of those live streams. We've been going hard in the community. We actually, we started six weeks ago because paranoid and just from following this story, I had a very strong gut feeling that this was going to be real and that we needed to pivot to deal with it.

(01:35:09):

And so I know that my employees must have thought I was nuts when I told them that in a few weeks the world is going to shut down and we need to pivot what we're doing to deal with it. But they went along with it and I'm very, very thankful that they did. But what we're doing was basically we stopped development on some new products. So we did a bootcamp with Will Putney did a bootcamp with Kris Crummett, and those are going to have to come out later. We're focusing really, really hard on our community and I think that the work that we've done for the past five years with our community is really paying off now. All the positivity and the bonding and just the whole culture that exists in URM is basically perfectly suited for this situation. So one thing that happens a lot for instance is when a member has a financial problem, other members will pick up the tab for them.

(01:36:10):

This is something that's been happening for years. It's really incredible. Someone will post, I just got fired, see you guys later kind of thing. And then you'll see comments like, Hey, I got you for a month and the next person, I got you for two months. And basically they'll end up with six months. This happens all the time. This is a regular thing. And so because behaviors like that are just a part of the way our community is in this type of scenario that's just getting amplified. So people are being super generous to each other, they're being super good to each other and they've all got each other's backs worldwide and it's great. So as far as my end of the world is going, I'm very, very thankful that we have focused on the things that we focused on as far as the community goes, and we made a lot of changes in the past year and a half to how everything is run to the website, everything. We completely changed just about everything and we did it just in time and it set us up for this. So I'm doing fine. Thank you for asking. How are you guys doing?

Speaker 3 (01:37:22):

Yeah, well firstly I think it's awesome what you're saying. It's very cool that you've built that community and I think all of us are probably quite lucky in what we do as a line of work in this time, but education has to be one of the coolest things that people could be doing to spend their time. I mean, even my mom has started doing an online course to study things and she just texted me this morning and just say she wouldn't know what she'd be doing with herself. She wasn't doing that now. And the opportunity now if you want to learn a craft or learn about a subject is as much as you can take in a day, you can pretty much dedicate yourself to that, and I think we'll see a lot of expertise coming out of this period.

Speaker 2 (01:37:55):

Yeah, I think a few things are going to happen. Number one, I don't think brick and mortar schools are going to go away, but I think that brick and mortar for things where you don't really need a degree or where you don't really need to be there, that's going to be severely hurt. For instance, recording school, I think that the brick and mortar old school recording schools that cost 50 to $80,000 and barely teach you shit, I think that those are going to take a severe hit. Art schools are going to take a severe hit, these lines of work where no degree is required, where what really, really matters is who and how much work you put in and how good you get. I think that those fields are going to experience a profound transformation. Also, I think that, look, everyone deals with this their own way, and I'm not judging anybody, but one thing that is true is that the world is on pause for just about everybody.

(01:38:54):

And so God bless you if you're an essential worker, but for everybody else who's just stuck at home, you can either waste this time or not, and you're probably never going to get another opportunity like this to just focus on learning something. One of the things that people complain about all the time is time. That's one of the number one reasons that people don't advance in things outside of their day job. For instance, on when people cancel nail the mix, we always find out why. And the number one reason tends to be not enough time. So I hear that all the time right now, that is not a reason anymore. So number one, you'll never get another opportunity like this ever. Number two, when the world opens back up, it's not going to just suddenly bounce back to the way things were. It's going to be different.

(01:39:51):

Nobody knows how different. I'm sure there's going to be an economic recovery, but how long that's going to take, who knows? And also what still exists, who knows? I think that the people who take this time period seriously and better themselves are going to be able to hit the ground running when things open back up, and that's going to be really, really important. I urge everybody to basically sharpen the blades as far as courses and shit goes, one thing that we've been doing is all our high price courses, we have discounted them by like 90%. So we're making it super, super easy for people to buy them, and we're streaming them in the group every single day. So you don't even have to buy them. We're just giving people stuff to do that's positive all day, every single day since this started. And again, this goes back to what we were saying before, you make your little corner of the world better and that's all you can do. So that's what we're doing for our community. We want them to have the best possible outcome out of this shitty situation. That's the most we can do. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:41:04):

How about you? How are things for you workwise? It's hard

Speaker 5 (01:41:07):

To complain. I think first of all, I echo the sentiments that you guys shared. It was kind of nice just being a passive listener for a bit there. As you kind of went on, I just kind of found myself nodding my head and agreeing with the vast majority of

Speaker 2 (01:41:19):

It, so kind of ranted.

Speaker 5 (01:41:20):

Well, it's your podcast man. You're entitled to rant on it and thank you. You're welcome. So for me, I'm one of the few, I think very, very lucky ones that I'm exceptionally insulated economically unless the a UD and the USD both nose dive, I'm okay and I can kind of coast for a while. This is a result of judicious planning and saving over the course of my entire adult lifetime for the rainy day, which eventually finally came apparently. So being in this position, I find it remarkably difficult to make a call about where everybody else is or what the pivot point of the world may reorient to. I don't really know where we are headed after this. I don't know just how hard everything is being affected nor what we might emerge into after this. I know that in my immediate world, other than a reduction of the amount of people that are out and about and obviously cafes and operating at minimal capacity and gyms being closed, everything is pretty much as business as usual as it can possibly be, like services still effectively running and society is still functioning as far as I can see.

(01:42:25):

So it'd be interesting to see what knock-on effects there are. But I will say it's interesting, and I'm not casting judgment on the way this has been handled by the governments or anything to that effect or implying that this is somehow wrong. But I find it interesting how the crux of the burden of these situations is often born by the youngest generation, and in this case, I feel like it's the people that are in their early adulthood. The ones who are likely going to be listening to this podcast is that they're the ones that are faced with extra economic uncertainty. They're the ones that are faced with this. Whatever new paradigm might emerge on top of a potential climate cataclysm that we've been facing for decades now, and everything else has kind of snowballed for them. So I feel that it's kind of unfair, and again, because you're not bored of it enough yet, one of the stoic adages I love so much is it may not be your fault, but it is your responsibility.

(01:43:20):

And I mean such responsibility that they're inheriting and you have to feel for them. But I mean, I guess that's a facet of life. And if you guys are listening to this, I would imagine a lot of you are very, very young guys getting into this business right now. And man, my thoughts are with you. I know what it's like to be there even under normal circumstances. So the idea of looking at a potentially uncertain future, I think you take solace in the fact that you have resources available to you as good as you are, m and NCM and all of the systems and the institutions that we have around us that we necessarily didn't maybe back in the nineties and stuff. So just the fact that you have this stuff accessible to you and you don't have to pay, let's say $40,000 like I did for audio school, which was a tremendous mistake in retrospect, is really good, especially given that some of you guys might be looking at projected casual work or you're still part-time students or whatever. I think it's just helpful for you to have that. So try and think of it as a glass half full kind of thing as much as possible, even though it may be hard sometimes.

Speaker 2 (01:44:24):

I think you're right that it's not fair and that the young generation is going to shoulder a very interesting unknown burden. I also understand that for young people getting into music, they might be very scared right now, especially if they didn't go to regular college. They don't have a regular degree. They spent the last, say they're 23 and they spent the last six years just going hard on this. And right as things were starting to work, this happened. I just want to remind everybody that the music industry has been in crisis many times. They're basically 2000 through 2013. Everybody thought that it was going to disappear. They thought that labels would be gone within five years. I heard that many times. Lots of great people left the industry. I know many people who were in bands and who were producers who got out because they didn't understand how they could have a future or there was a future.

(01:45:30):

And it persisted. The industry persisted. It found its way out, and I do believe that this sort of thing will happen, whether it's downloading or coronavirus or whatever, there will always be periods where things seem uncertain, but what's not uncertain to me is people's love for music and people's need to make it. Why would that go away? That doesn't make any sense. We're talking about something that's age old. It's not going anywhere. The only thing that might change is how it's delivered. That's changed before. But the fact that people make it and need to make it and will need services around making it, it's always going to be there. And so if you can weather this storm and just keep on getting better, find the way to make the most of it's going to be okay in my opinion.

Speaker 3 (01:46:28):

Yeah. I actually think in a time like this that normality is on pause. It might be the arts that come out on top as some of the most valuable things that could come out of this period. I think more than ever, people want music to listen to art to consume in one way or another, and people have time to rise and record their own music. We're is going to mixing and mastering by somebody. So if you're out there and getting into the game, then there's probably going to be a lot more opportunities than there were previously. I know of major bands whose records or singles are mixed in the last two or three months that haven't yet been released, and I've heard from them or on the grapevine that they've gone straight back into songwriting mode instead of going on tour. So probably going to see quite a flurry of albums coming out in the next couple of months. Hopefully not too many with cheesy kind of pandemic related subject matter.

Speaker 5 (01:47:20):

No, I agree. That tracks with all the experiences that I've had as well. Most of the clients and colleagues that I've spoken to are just in complete hermit hibernation writing mode, just getting as creative as humanly possible. And I think you can kind of see that track with, if you were to look at sales figures for most plugin companies, I'm guessing that most of them have had a little bit of an upward swing because as everybody kind of hunker down at home, they're getting hyper productive. And I think in some bizarre way, if you're in a segment of this industry, you've almost been inversely affected on economic level to most regular businesses, which puts you in this really bizarre position and almost entrusts you with this bizarre extra level of responsibility to the people that you are serving with these services. But it definitely tracks ly what you're saying. I think we're going to see a flurry of amazing music come out over the coming months. And I mean, I certainly know that from having worked on some of your records over the last month or two or whatever it's been, I'm actually amazed that you aren't completely burnt out given the rate of work you've been putting out.

Speaker 3 (01:48:23):

Yeah, it's been intense, but I think with time somehow mixing has become less and less draining for me. I think it's become quicker actually. It's become more efficient and quicker. You've got to teach me your secret. Maybe I just don't care as much. Actually. I think funnily enough, the mix is that I've done this year are probably the ones that I'm most proud of. And some of them came out and some of 'em happened really quickly. I mean, you mastered the new bleed from within record that we mixed in four days. Zi, the guitarist came down. Well, I'd already mixed a single for them, which was done from the same session. So it was a basic template and then it came down, crashed here, and we did the whole record in four days, and I think it came out pretty awesome. That's amazing, man. Yeah. But yeah, it is pretty cool. I definitely couldn't have done that, done that a while ago.

Speaker 5 (01:49:06):

That's why I pulled out of this business. I can't compete at that level. I can't put out mixes like that in four days. There's no way it'd take me two months. I'd need to want to kill myself at least three times throughout the process, revisit the mix several times over, take two vacations. So I think I pulled out at the right time and got into the right gig and left you to the right gig as well.

Speaker 3 (01:49:25):

I wonder if you've experienced this because you're involved in product creation as well, but I think I'm in a very lucky position to be involved with product development through GGD and also to have my foot in the active music mixing world because in some ways I'm getting to explore source tone capturing at a much higher rate than people that are tracking whole albums. Because if you set up drums and then spend two weeks tracking drums, you're not really flexing those engineering chops after you've got through the initial kind of setup process. Whereas I might set up three or four drum kits in a day and practiced doing that. Or my big thing for the last couple of years has been guitar tones. I've gone really down the rabbit hole as I think I've been trying to nail that early two thousands guitar tone that inspired me, and I think probably inspired both of you guys as much collecting up a stupid amount of mess of boogie cabs from different eras and practicing micing them up and switching speakers around. When I think on that, that's this very compressed research period that you wouldn't get if you were worrying about studio overheads and getting through actual engineering of records. So I think that's something which is enabled the speed that I can mix, because I know the constituent parts that make up my tones quite well at this point. So I think that's quite a useful position for me to be in that I'm grateful for.

Speaker 2 (01:50:52):

I totally know what you're saying about how product creation helps your ears. I haven't made as many products as you, but I have made some over the years and the process of making those was probably the most hyper-focused I've ever been for an extended period of time on tones. You're right. When getting drum tones for an album, you take one to three days, maybe four, maybe five, but still, once you're done with that, then it's all recording. Maybe a little bit of tweaking, but the bulk of that detail work is done. At the beginning when I made the drum forge drum expansion that I did, that was like three weeks of constantly working on drum tones. You just get hyper-focused in a way that creating records doesn't get you.

Speaker 3 (01:51:50):

Yeah, and I think there's actually a point of if you tried to be as fastidious during a recording session with a band and you're acting as the producer, if you tried to be as obsessive as you are, when you do a sampling project or capturing impulse response or something like that, you would drive the band crazy. In fact, I think I saw an article, article go out the other day, Matt Hefe talking about his experience with Colin Richardson. I dunno if it's just a persoNollyty mismatch, but he was talking about how agonizing it was to spend two weeks getting guitar tones or whatever.

Speaker 2 (01:52:20):

So let me tell you about that because that happened at my house. Oh wow.

(01:52:27):

So the drums happened at my house. This was in 2011. They booked three weeks, but they were there much longer than three weeks. It took three weeks just for Colin to figure out a kick drum tone. It took two weeks just to figure out where he wanted it in the and the drums sounded fucking incredible though. I know this from when he makes my band's record that he's the most meticulous motherfucker I've ever met. He does not move on until it's exactly the way he wants it. But the thing that sets him apart from other people is sometimes people, they don't have a very defined vision. They just know if something's wrong and so they'll start chasing their tail and going in circles and burn themselves out and take forever. Maybe by chance they'll land on something good, but it's by chance sometimes they'll land on something bad. In Collin's case, he knows exactly what he's going for and he doesn't stop until he's there. Even if it's 5% off, he'll just keep going and nobody gets in his way. It doesn't matter if there's a deadline or a budget or anything. You can't stop him from taking as long as he's going to fucking take to make it sound exactly the way he wants it to sound. And yeah, it can be excruciating.

Speaker 5 (01:53:57):

I wish you could grow back to 2005 and tell the people on the sneak board this because so many of them were just chasing their tails trying to get these sounds of guys that we loved, like Colin and Andy sleep, but they don't realize the kind of process, the mentality that goes into it and not to mention the kind of budgets that have to go into a process like that and how ultimately irrelevant it was to bedroom guys operating in 2005 trying to use like God, what were we using back then? Wagner Sharp or whatever, freeware amp sims were out and about. So it's like you're never going to get that kind of an aesthetic unless you're going to spend two weeks moving a microphone around probably several dozens of different V thirties because they all sound completely different as Nly would be well aware at this point, different vintages and even different makes of the same year and batch just have variances. But to someone like that, that's part of the process and that's just something that we kind of skipped over as kids back in the day. So I wish that kind of a wisdom is something you could impart to people on their earliest days. It would save them so much heartache.

Speaker 2 (01:54:57):

Absolutely. I can tell you two things about this that immediately come to mind. When Colin mixed my record in 2006, we had him for three weeks. I went to London for it and we were in a really nice studio with a Neve and had three weeks, that's all the budget would allow. Apparently that was speed mixing for him. So just to give you a little perspective, that was him rushing a job, which is nuts. Imagine three weeks feeling fast for one mix. But the guy I remember as I lay dying record, I don't know how many he did, but there was one where he went to California to mix it and he was there for four months. Sounds incredible. But he was there for four months and we had Carl Brown on nail the mix. I think it was May, 2018, er My Valentine and Carl is one of his proteges and at that time it was the longest nail the mix session that we had done to date.

(01:56:06):

It could have been two hours longer, but we got kicked out of the studio after 12 hours. He still had two or three hours in him. That meticulous thing that Colin Richardson does definitely got passed down to Carl, but it was the same thing. It was no moving on until the job is finished exactly the way it needs to be. However, the thing is that doesn't mean that that record Ali that you did in four days is in any way inferior. So that's something that's really important for people who are newer to understand if they don't come from that old studio world or they have developed modern workflows or whatnot, just because it took you four days doesn't mean that you were any less worried about quality or anything. It's just what your workflow happened to be like.

Speaker 3 (01:57:07):

I mean, to make a point about that, I really romanticize that concept of without that idea of how Colin Richardson works, I think, and I'm not comparing myself to him, I don't have the experience of him, but I think the difference is that I don't do that on a band's time. And that's something that's a luxury that's afforded to me by the fact that in this modern day and age I can make up my income from other streams that affords me the time and actually where my job is to do all of that kind of research and trial and error off the clock with a band. But I am super obsessive about it. It's just, yeah, I like to have knowledge on two sides. I like to have knowledge of the equipment that I have and I like to own the equipment that I use most of the time so that I do have a very good knowledge of it.

(01:57:47):

Or if I know I'm going to be using equipment that isn't mine, I want to know as much about the equipment as I possibly can and I want to have the knowledge of how to extract the best from it ahead of time so that when I go into tracking drums, it only takes half a day for me to get my tones. I know what I'm doing and I know what the variables that I want to mess around with are, and I know what the things which need to be one way are and I know what things I want to experiment with or what's worked in the past and I want to draw on that so that I can go into a recording session and not waste anyone's time including my own and walk out from it without having burnt myself out and burnt out everyone around me.

Speaker 5 (01:58:24):

I'm curious, do you find yourself with the extra income streams being more selective about which clientele you take on as a mix engineer these days? You obviously have the freedom.

Speaker 3 (01:58:34):

Yeah, definitely. And I think that's been something which has had to be quite conscious because from a business perspective it's probably more worth time to focus on products than it is to focusing on certainly being a tracking engineer. I don't really track things apart from drums now. In fact, my ideal way to work, which I've done for example, on both the records that you've mastered recently Bleed from Within and Haken is I've been involved in the drum production. I've gone to the studio in the case of Haken, I just went on day one, took a load of drums with me, a load of microphones with me, and then left Ray, who's a super capable musician, he can tune his drums perfectly or he can maintain the tunings that I do perfectly, and then I reamp the guitars with the band so that they're there to approve the tones, but they've tracked everything else themselves.

(01:59:19):

And that way I get the really good balance of having source tones that I know everything about without having to have been there for the whole tracking time because I do want to be a lot more assertive about who I work with. I've definitely learned a truism that people talk about from day one, which is that bad music, you can't make that sound good, whereas really good music, I mean you can make it sound good, but you can't make it engaging perhaps. Whereas really good music pretty much mixes itself. And the last thing I want to be doing is taking on too many projects as I've definitely been guilty of in the past and kind of having some kind of resentment towards it, which is ridiculous because it was my decision to take them on in the first place. But there is a huge element of client satisfaction necessary with what we do in communication and things take time and you've got to try and get things the way the client wants. And if you've got three clients simultaneously sending you mixed nights for a whole album on one day when you've just been free for four days because they haven't been getting back to you, that's just a bad time for everyone involved.

Speaker 5 (02:00:17):

Yeah, I completely agree. It's probably one of the reasons I pulled out of the mixing gig as a whole. I don't think in the end I had the disposition to handle the, I think the intense demand on your time that mix engineering requires because it never stops. It's ongoing and somebody always needs something for something that should have been done however long ago. I think if you are passionate about a project, it makes it much easier to make accounts for that to basically create some extra leeway for those processes. But if you are treating mixed engineering completely as some kind of blue collar job, I think one of the worst things that started happening to me is that I became almost resentful of music or I started losing the passion about it, which to me was the point of no return. I'm like, there's no way I'm going to keep pushing forward with this when I have other avenues to make a living and I can keep this open to only work on the kind of projects that creatively enrich both me and the clients and we can go from there.

(02:01:15):

And just very recently I came out of quasi mixed retirement to mix something for an old friend for a milestone event, and I'm keen for when that's going to come out, but there's virtually no financial incentive for that. I've yet to invoice them. I don't even care if I get paid or not. I would've done it for free had the opportunity arisen. So I think that's an extremely privileged place to be in, to be able to exercise your passion as a passion and not be constrained to it. Feeling like some kind of stifling day job is one of the best possible things that I think maybe product development has done for both of us.

Speaker 2 (02:01:52):

So what you just said really resonates with me. I think that it's very, very important to recognize what your disposition is and there's some elements of the professional mixing or production world that are not right for everyone. All about what you can tolerate and what you can't and really what you're okay with. For instance, that sort of thing that you just talked about, the waiting for four days of nothing and then one day you get every note from every band. That kind of stuff used to drive me nuts. And also for instance, not getting paid by labels till six months after the record comes out now, stuff like that, nobody likes it, right? It's not like any of our friends enjoy that, but the thing is a lot of them have the disposition to tolerate it and that's fine, that's totally cool, but if you don't have the disposition for that, you're never going to do the work required to stay on top, in my opinion, to stay on top of where your skills could be and to make it as awesome of an experience for everybody as it could possibly be.

(02:03:10):

I think that knowing yourself is a huge part of this. And there's many people who they might not have the disposition for maybe being a touring musician or being a mixer, but they still have great talent and great passion for stuff related to it and can find a way to utilize that profitably and enjoyably by just slightly tweaking what they're doing. For instance, product development, you're still using those same skills, you're still using your creativity, it's just in a different way that suits your persoNollyty more. And I think it's really, really awesome that you figured that out. You're probably way happier.

Speaker 5 (02:03:57):

Yeah, a hundred percent. And I can certainly see how liberating it would be to somebody in either of, in any of our possessions really all three of us. Because one thing, I guess this is basically true of aging in general, but I've become much more aware of my time and its intrinsic worth. And the further and further I went with music production as a service, the more I felt the people were making unfair what I perceive as unfair in positions on my time, which to me is irre recoverable and precious beyond measure. So to me, the idea of being able to double back and do product development not only on my own schedule, but to actually invest all of my passion into creating the best possible product, which under most modern production circumstances you simply can't do anymore. Because one of the reasons I burnt out in the end was I just kept getting MIDI files and vocal tracks and DI's and people assuming that that is what constitutes a record to a mix engineer.

(02:04:56):

That's where your job begins. It's barely anywhere down the line. I mean, part of the whole art of tracking engineering is committing to the sounds and creating the fabric, the aesthetic fabric of a record before anyone's even touched an eq. And I feel like a lot of that art has been lost due to bands doing a lot of the recordings themselves at home. But because that's the case, I feel like we can offer them so much more with great products such as the get good drums, drums, libraries, the impulse responses, our virtual bass instruments, you can literally load up these source tones, the guise have virtually spent their entire adult lives chasing and just have them there immediately to Producee or demo your material to. And I think that's just, we're seeing this kind of a synergistic balance where we are constantly being tagged by people doing these amazing playthrough pieces using get good drums in our bases. They almost come in tandem these days, which I find really amusing

Speaker 3 (02:05:49):

Gig, a drums mural and submission.

Speaker 5 (02:05:51):

Yeah, yeah, it's amazing. And the funny thing

Speaker 2 (02:05:53):

Is all great companies by the way, lemme just say I love everything that everyone just listed does,

Speaker 5 (02:06:01):

And the funny thing is that it always comes in triplicate now, you'll always find us all resharing the exact same videos and the guys are loving it because getting all of this extra exposure to their music and we're getting exposure to the products and it's sort of this bizarre synergistic balance where everybody wins in the end. So I almost feel like a strange sense of zen about ending up in this position because as much as I'm being much more selective about where you can spend your time to max effect, I feel like it's just kind of helps everyone out a lot more and certainly allows me to recruit a lot more people around me and kind of enrich their lives as well. So I think,

Speaker 3 (02:06:35):

Yeah, you and I were talking about this a couple of weeks ago and we chatted and I think it's been an incredibly satisfying path actually all three of us, again, to bring it back to the Snee Forum, we're on forums, sneak forum a lot, trying to figure out how to get these sounds, failing at it, trying to achieve those sounds with products that I hate to say, but a lot of the early software products, they were incredibly pioneering in how they put together sampling engines and figured out how to model amplifiers and gear. But I think they often lacked the stewardship of people with sound design born out of real production experience.

(02:07:14):

And I think we're now in that sweet spot where all three of us grew up trying to use those early products. So we know the shortcomings, we're aware of what's good and what isn't about them, but we can also bring experience to bear from real world examples and chasing the dragon frankly on achieving these amazing guitar tones and drum tones and bass sounds that we've aspired to since the early two thousands and they're now getting re-synthesize by new people and kids aren't having to face some of the same impossible walls to climb that we did before this technology was available. And I think that's really satisfying.

Speaker 2 (02:07:49):

Yeah, man, it's great. I can tell you with URM, one of the biggest driving factors of why I love doing it and why I wanted to do it was because of that time period of searching for those tones and not having the tools or mentorship or just the ability to really do it. It was nuts to try to find any info. Interestingly enough, I felt like I don't have it in me to be a great producer or a great mixer. I have it in me to be okay, but not compared to lots of my friends, they have that in them, but I have been in it long enough and chased the dragon long enough to know exactly what goes into it. I have a passion for knowing what it is that great minds do to get great sounds. It's interesting, but because of having done it in real life for several years and having known what it's like to not have info there, that's what guides this.

(02:09:04):

That's why your RM has been able to be relevant coming from real life and it's showing how people who do it in real life do it as opposed to sometimes you'll see products on, well, educational offerings on YouTube from, and I'm not judging, this is more just a statement of fact from people who have never really made a record in a label situation. Maybe they chased the dragon but never really worked with anyone that was incredible, so haven't had the opportunity to understand where the bar is at since we do have that experience, it makes what we offer that much more credible and real. And I think that it's the same thing that you're saying with your product creation because you have made records in real life that people love and listened to that experience right there for years and years and years, starting with the neat forum days where you probably didn't know what the fuck you were doing to now where you really do know what you're doing, but the fact that you went from zero to doing it for real informs your decisions when creating tones for a product. You actually know what works. It's not some abstract thing. You're not guessing, and I think that that makes your products way more valuable.

Speaker 3 (02:10:33):

I was just going to share my perspective on something which I've seen people complaining about us running the risk of getting homogeneity between all music because it's going to be created with the same tools. I think that's definitely something that could happen. That's the way things could go bad. But I think the way that things could go good is us for us to hear music that happens because kids aren't just getting sidetracked into how to try and make stuff sound half decent and instead get to express themselves musically and for it to sound really listenable and for all of us to enjoy living in a world surrounded by great music. That sounds great. And ultimately, if I end up killing my job as a mix engineer 10 years down the line because it's just not needed anymore, obviously some part of my ego will be hurt by that, but I think on the whole, that's a net positive for the world in that we all get to hear great music sounding good.

Speaker 5 (02:11:27):

Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent. I think the more you can empower people to just focus on the creative aspect without getting bogged down into the technicals like we used to for months and years, the better for everybody. But something kind of tangential, I wanted to touch on from what AR was saying, talking about pedigree and in terms of sharing information with people and varying degrees of clout coming from different sources. One of the funniest things for me is that when I wrote the Systematic Mixing Guide, I was effectively nobody. I mean, I'm not saying I'm somebody now, but back then you literally, if you didn't know the skateboard, you didn't know who I was. Yet somehow that thing still caught on like wildfire. And two things that come of that, I think one, just because you haven't made it on let's say a certain level, doesn't intrinsically disqualify what you have to say.

(02:12:14):

There's an element of luck and r and g to all of this, which is something that Misha and I talk about all the time is how lucky we were to have been where we were at given points in time, a hundred percent. The second point which comes of that is it doesn't happen overnight. I've been at this for 15 years maybe on a quote professional level, and I think it only really kind of happened maybe five to six years ago. And many of the steps, many of the plateau breakers were completely tangential. There were things like, let's say the systematic mixing guide that became a lot more known after writing that, certainly not from laboring and working on local bands for years and years and years. And then the second one, of course was that one day where I was just remastering zen for fun and I shared it with you, and then you kind of shared that with Misha and then the rest is history. And this kind of led into this bizarre new career in mastering that I never envisaged as a young guy, but it speaks to the power of being malleable and allowing the current to take you where it's going. Don't fight all of the opportunity that you've given just because it goes against your initial convictions, whatever predispositions you may have, because you never know where you might end up.

Speaker 3 (02:13:25):

I can't echo that more. I mean, I ended up in periphery playing bass, which was not my main instrument. Well, I actually did say no as my initial reaction and then thought about it and said yes, because I thought, no, I'm a guitar player. I've just finished or was in the process of finishing music school for guitar. I had a band where I was the lead guitarist. I loved guitar, I didn't care about bass or I didn't have any awareness of bass. And that was definitely one of those kind of forks in the road that's led me to the place I'm at now where I'm super, super thankful and I loved playing bass and I got exposed to unique opportunities. I was one of a kind within a band rather than being one of three guitarists and really high profile guitarist too. So I think being malleable is a huge skill. How have you found it moving to mastering? I mean, has that been something that was difficult for you or do you really enjoy it? How would you feel if you didn't mix another record in your life?

Speaker 5 (02:14:20):

Well, I'd feel pretty good if I never had to mix another record in my life. Thank you for asking. But that aside, aside the mastering, I think initially I was quite hesitant. It was never one of my passions per se. I was never one of those guys that read Bobcat Katz's book and worshiped it and wanted to get into that line of work. But I think over time it grew on me first as the validity of it being a day job. I think as far as service-based work provision goes, and music production mastering is probably the most cushy gig that you can land. So I had to become aware of how lucky I was to be in that position and to not squander it. But as we kind of moved past that with let's say whatever monetizing the mixing guide and then releasing products through submission and stuff as it's kind of liberated me to take on more gigs that I enjoy, such as the many projects that you did last month, it's kind of enriching in its own way.

(02:15:14):

And not only that, one of my favorite new things that's come about only very recently is that as I've stopped taking on mixed work, there's come about this natural kind of conundrum like, well, what do I do with this? I can't just stonewall these bands and say, oh, good luck. Find someone I need someone to refer 'em to. And I actually managed to get in touch with a really, really super talented guy who I think was a URM member or still is called ASRA Ally or as I'm sorry if I'm butchering your name from the after image and from the first moment that we worked together on some random mastering thread, we was trying to get free mastering for his band, I heard something intrinsic in his mixed work, and I knew I saw that spark of potential. I'm like, if any motherfucker out there is going to be able to do what maybe I would've been able to do in 20 years had I had the tenacity to stick with this, it's going to be the guy.

(02:16:08):

And as we've kind of worked together over a couple of projects as I farm out let's say 80 to 90% of my mixed work to him watching his skill developed to a knife point has been one of the most enriching things like on a completely financially decoupled level that I've experienced in this industry. It's almost like the kind of people that you would touch with URM or the mixing guide, but on a super visceral one-to-one level over a protracted period of time. And I think that's been one of the greatest knock on effects for me. And I look forward to doing the same thing with other super talented guys like Adam Bentley who I farm at a time of mixed work to as well. And just I think being in this position where you kind of transition from being the hungry green kid always vying for new work to being maybe fitting more of that mentorship kind of sage role where you can kind of guide the next generation of guys doing this has been tremendously satisfying for me.

Speaker 3 (02:17:00):

Yeah, you have to remind me of the name of the first chap because I haven't come across this stuff knowingly, but Adam Bentley is someone I'm aware of and he's a really, really talented kid and the music that his band makes amazing.

Speaker 5 (02:17:11):

Yeah, amazing. You guys toured with him. Sorry, not you guys. You're not a periphery anymore, but the periphery guys toured with them recently.

Speaker 3 (02:17:17):

Yeah, me in a parallel universe that didn't leave the band, toured with him recently,

Speaker 5 (02:17:21):

Prerecorded noli, backing track,

Speaker 3 (02:17:23):

Toured. Yeah, I was there in computer form. I have actually met Adam too. I met him briefly. He recorded some tracks on an instrumental record that you mastered for a chap called Gavin Kennedy, who's a very talented songwriter from Nashville.

Speaker 5 (02:17:35):

Awesome record

Speaker 3 (02:17:36):

I went over for the album release and Adam was there and he's super nice chap, very talented, and I've been really pleased to hear the music he's been making and he's definitely one of the torch bearers I think for the next generation,

Speaker 2 (02:17:50):

A hundred percent. It's really, really awesome to see people flourish talent wise and career wise. It's one of my favorite things about this. I want to respond to something you said about 10 minutes ago, so about the systematic mixing guide and you saying that you were a nobody at that point. First of all, I don't think you were ever a nobody. You were just unknown at that point. But I don't think it's a coincidence that the person who wrote that is now making products that are really good and also is well respected for mastering these things. They're not unrelated, so that's number one. So I think that you always had something legit to contribute. Maybe you just weren't known yet. So that's very, very different than what I meant when I said that. A lot of info comes out from people who don't know what they're talking about. I don't think that having worked on big records is what matters obviously is knowing what you're talking about, and that's also why we feature people who aren't very known yet, but we feel are great. So I would say that you've always been legit. That was just your first big

Speaker 3 (02:19:05):

Thing. I think you've got to ask anyone that was on the sneak forum in the mid two thousands what they thought of Ermin at that time, and he was a incredibly terrifying figure of knowledge and skill at that time.

Speaker 2 (02:19:18):

That's what I'm saying. You're not nobody.

Speaker 5 (02:19:21):

That's a much nicer way of framing it. Guys, thank you very much. Appreciate it. My ego needs this boost at 1:00 AM as my brain slowly shuts down.

Speaker 2 (02:19:29):

That's what I'm here for. I just don't think it's an accident that you didn't just write it out of nowhere and then disappear. That was part of this really cool career that you've built and it makes perfect sense to me. And also the thing about luck is really, really crazy. One of those make your own luck types. However, the things that are outside your control that affect your career have always blown my mind. For instance, that my best friend Finn decided to move back to Seattle and happened to know Chase Jarvis from Creative Live and got that job and then created the audio channel, which was kind of what led to all of this. I hadn't met Finn through Metal Sucks. We both wrote blogs for them and we happened to both go to the Golden Gods 2009 show where we were introduced by the metal sucks. Guys, that's just luck. If he had decided not to go or I had decided not to go or he decided not to move back to Seattle, who the hell knows? So those kinds of things have always blown my mind like meeting that right person at the right time for the right thing to happen.

Speaker 5 (02:20:48):

Yeah, a hundred percent

Speaker 2 (02:20:50):

Can't plan on it.

Speaker 5 (02:20:51):

It's that cross-section between having the skillset and that meeting with the opportunity and the opportune time. All you can really do is hone your skills to be prepared for that moment. You can't necessarily guarantee that that moment will ever come, but to a certain extent you can put yourself in positions where it's much more likely to eventuate. So I think it's the way that Misha and I are normally kind of frame it when we're talking about it is there's a tremendous element of luck, but to some degree you do make your own luck and so long as you enjoy the process and ultimately what you're chasing as a hobby, you'll never feel shortchanged even if you never make it to the levels that you're envisaging.

Speaker 3 (02:21:32):

Yeah, I think that requires a lot of self-honesty.

Speaker 5 (02:21:34):

Yeah, completely agree. Funny is going back to what you were saying and how all of this has merged for all of us, one of the things that I love about this is the networking opportunities that it's created not just from a business sense, but the kind of insight I've been able to gain from different people. You brought up interviewing Mick Gordon two weeks ago, Al, and we were actually on the phone about a similar time ago where I was having the most fascinating, I'd say I call it a conversation, but really it was just me listening as he was telling me about John CarMax code still being in the EdTech seven engine, which to a geek like me is. I was just mind blown. I'm like, oh my God, you're telling me John's code from 1999 is still in do maternal and I'm learning all these things about the video game music industry that I never would've picked up on otherwise without access to someone like that. And I think that's one of the things that I'm ongoingly tremendously thankful for, not only for guys that you get to let's say mentor or tutor, but the guys that you get to get information from in kind and it shows you almost like the natural ebb and flow of an industry like this and how it fundamentally functions. It's almost like a little ecosystem unto itself. And to be a part of that in some meaningful way is probably one of the most satisfying things about all of this. I love it.

Speaker 3 (02:22:53):

Love it. I want to loop back to something that we were talking about earlier. Sure. It occurred to me at the time, I've just reremembered it and I don't think we're going back to that conversation, so I'm just going to shoehorn it in right now. We were talking about Colin Richardson for ages and about how long he likes to take or rather not likes to, but how insistent he is and how long he's willing to take to get tones the way he likes. And I just wanted to throw a comparison out there to our Lord and savior, Andy Sleep for United, all of us 10 years ago or whenever since it seems like his approach is not opposite, but definitely a lot less fussy with regards to getting the tones. And I'd argue his results are equally good if perhaps not even better, dare I say. I dunno what you guys think.

Speaker 2 (02:23:32):

I think they're neck and neck. It just depends on the record. They're both like the gods of that era in my opinion. But that's exactly what I meant when I said that. Just because you spent four days on that one record, that doesn't mean that you are any less invested in it. It's just whatever your process is. And I think Andy's process definitely faster than Collins, but that has nothing to do with the quality of the work.

Speaker 5 (02:24:03):

Yeah. I think that you can't escape the potential of a record. This is going to be a really weird metaphor here, but I think of it kind of like lap times in a car. So a certain car on a certain track can only ever do one perfect lap. Let's say it's like two 15 as a recording engineer, all you can really do, you're basically the race car driver. All you can control is how close you get to that perfect lap, however long that might take for some people. You might get it in two laps. For other people it might take 200 laps, but really the only thing you have any realm of control over is how close you get to the ultimate potential of what the music is presenting you. I think the fact that those guys work with some amazing artists on some amazing records shaped a lot of what we love about their work. And as much as not many of us are going to get the privilege of spending three weeks on pulling a guitar sound or changing guitar strings after recording every two riffs, we can take solace in the fact that ly knocks out records in four days or that sleep doesn't really care about how tight double tracking is anymore. Just as long as it feels right in the mix, it goes to show that everything is valid so long as the fundamentals are done correctly.

Speaker 3 (02:25:11):

Yeah, I think it was more responding when I'm thinking about that. I think I was thinking about your comment sermon about how perhaps people didn't realize the length that people were going to capture these sounds. And something that's become really apparent to me as I've collected up all of these mea boogie calves is certain ones have the sound like certain eras of vintage 30, it's not even really about the cab enclosure because they're pretty much the same as in between different of the same type of mea boogie oversized angle. You can put the speakers in any of one of them and they're still going to have that magic to them. And I firmly believe that Andy's cab, which I've bothered him about a lot for the last year or so, and he's grudgingly given me more info about, I think he just got one that happened to have an era of vintage thirties in it that sounded amazing.

(02:25:57):

And I can say from the cab, which I have here, which sounds pretty close to his, you put a 57 anywhere that's not stupid on it and it sounds amazing and you put any mic on it in a place that's not stupid and it sounds amazing and you can pretty much just move on once you've got there. And that's quite liberating. So I do want to just throw out there that I think there are certain puzzles to which there are quite simple keys that just involve having the right bit of equipment when it's something as crucial as a speaker cabinet or an amplifier. And I dunno whether it's that those guys created the sound that we then saw as our ideal or if it's just generally that that's what we heard and therefore gravitated towards, but it's not a particularly laborious exercise to get an amazing guitar out of said cap, for example.

Speaker 2 (02:26:44):

Completely agreed. I think it's similar to lots of things in audio. Like for instance, when choosing a sample for a drum, if you pick the wrong sample to reinforce your scenario with, you're going to have a really hard time getting it to work in the context. But if you take the time to pick the right one, as long as you don't do anything stupid, it's going to work most likely. I feel like it's the same with synth too. Once you find the right setting or the right pick the right santa or whatever your life is going to be way, way easier. Things will happen way faster. I think it's about taking the time to figure out which tools are right for which job and not stopping when something's wrong for the job and trying to make it work when it's not going to work.

Speaker 3 (02:27:35):

Absolutely. I had to get that out there. I had to talk about

Speaker 5 (02:27:37):

Thank you.

Speaker 2 (02:27:39):

I love his work.

Speaker 5 (02:27:40):

Going back to sleep, there's probably one unresolved thing I have from all the years that I spent on the sleep board and the subsequent years since then, I never really got a chance to thank Andy for basically giving me a career in this business. I know that back in the day, I think I would occasionally say some 20 things on that forum and I think I may have punished him a little more than I ever intended to. And as a result we've never really developed a relationship. But if either of you either ever speak to him at any point, please do convey to him my sincere and heartfelt thanks for basically allowing me to live the life that I lead and the fact that, I mean he basically facilitated that for so many of us and we're eternally grateful

Speaker 3 (02:28:22):

He's the godfather. Sure. I'll have a typically dry northern humor response to that if I put that to him. Sure.

Speaker 2 (02:28:28):

I'm sure he would. So I don't want to take up all your day and all your night. I know it's night for you. So we've got some questions here from the audience. Do you mind if we go through a few of them

Speaker 5 (02:28:41):

Please? Please do.

Speaker 2 (02:28:42):

Alright. From Tyler PIL for Nolly. Why am I so bad at this for Ermin? Why am I so bad at this?

Speaker 3 (02:28:52):

You want to take that one nas? Yeah, because you suck. No, no, I'm joking. You probably just haven't spent enough time on it. I guess that's probably it. And not just time practicing the craft, but time listening with critical ears to things. I sucked at it for ages. I went on to this Andy Sneak forum that we keep talking about, and I was a total noob and I sucked at it and I didn't even know that I sucked as badly as I did until I started getting mixed criticisms from people. But with time I got better at it and my ears got better and things go in peaks and troughs. I was about to say they kind of go exponentially, but they don't. I think they go exponentially for a while and then you hit a plateau and then another plateau and then another plateau. And if you love it, you'll just keep going and you'll eventually achieve things that you always wanted to.

Speaker 5 (02:29:42):

Yeah, I mean from my perspective, you probably just need more self-loathing in your life. If you don't hate yourself while you're doing whatever it is that you're doing, you're probably not excelling. Yeah, huge thumbs up. For me,

Speaker 3 (02:29:55):

Self-hatred is

Speaker 5 (02:29:55):

Necessary. No, but honestly, I think a big one from the David Goggins School of thought is if you are not suffering, you're probably not growing on some level. So you need to make sure that you are challenging yourself, whatever it is that you're doing, whether you're trying a new mix technique or whether you're trying cab micing technique or something like that, you have to push yourself into a realm of discomfort. And this applies as much to working out as it does to race car driving as it does to pretty much any other pursuit in life, whether it be building a business or network or whatever. So as long as you're in a place where you're constantly challenging yourself, you're making sure that you are living up to whatever your end potential might be. And I have confidence that if you stick with it one day, you will not suck and it'll be great. All things will be good.

Speaker 2 (02:30:41):

It's all about sucking less basically

Speaker 5 (02:30:42):

Through suffering.

Speaker 2 (02:30:44):

Yeah. So soup Haji Pandit says Naali. When you are handling the mixing and Ermin the mastering, how often do you guys go back and forth?

Speaker 3 (02:30:54):

This is pretty funny. We don't really talk at all. In fact, we had the first conversation in years a couple of weeks ago. Oh God. It's quite a bizarre dynamic that we have. I typically just to keep things separate and also so that business things don't get confused because clients get confused. I generally like them to approach Ermin separately to approaching me, and when I finish the mix, I send the files to the band and them or their management, forward them to iin. And we pretty much don't exchange a single word

Speaker 5 (02:31:22):

Pretty much. I think when we first spoke a couple of weeks ago, after years, I referred to it as having a benevolent ghost in my life that would just send me work and I'm like, wow, this is really nice. But it was a really bizarre relationship. I just kind of assumed that he would sign off on everything that I did because I kind of sent it back and nobody ever complained. But I think only recently have we started becoming a bit more interactive with it, and I think I personally prefer it on this level. I'd like the safety blanket of knowing that if he takes issue with something that I do for his clients, that he'll bring it up with me and then we can course correct. And our work can keep developing and growing in a good direction. Though it's been kind of difficult over the last month, he's been firing records out so rapidly that I've barely been able to keep up on the mastering fronts of things. And it's usually like Haken was like, Hey Oman, here are the mixes. It's fucking due tomorrow. It's like that was the lead time was like one day. And I'm like, well, there's going to be no revisions obviously, so I better not fuck this up. And yeah, we get a lot, I couldn't

Speaker 3 (02:32:19):

Believe it. 10 days later they released the first single as well. I dunno if that was planned, but that was insane.

Speaker 5 (02:32:24):

I mean, they kind of stumbled upon some weird luck with the subject matter of that record kind of coinciding with this timeframe. And I think maybe they're trying to capitalize on the coincidence. I'm not saying that they've written it for this moment in time specifically, but there's a certain kind of poetry to it coming out right now.

Speaker 3 (02:32:40):

Yeah. Although I think the actual story of the record is not so much about pandemic and more to do with the development of that character. Sure, sure. The Cockroach king, but the name of it's really on the nose. What's the name? It's called Virus. And they decided that months and months ago, it's got nothing to do with what's going on.

Speaker 2 (02:32:58):

That reminds me of a slayer.

Speaker 3 (02:33:01):

God hates us all

Speaker 2 (02:33:02):

On nine 11.

Speaker 3 (02:33:03):

I remember that. Yeah. Wow. What I remember, I had a Guitar World magazine that I'd bought on a trip to the States and happened to flick through close to and then again after nine 11 and it hit me at that point, the tragic coincidence in that.

Speaker 2 (02:33:21):

Yeah, that's one way to put it. Okay, so from Colby, he's got one question for each of you. This one's for Nolly.

Speaker 3 (02:33:28):

Actually, before we answer Colby's question, I just want to put one little more comment into that conversation. Sure. I just want to be clear that the reason that I don't see the need to communicate with Iman during the process is because I have a hundred percent trust of what he does to the point that I barely even will listen to the master until the record's out and on Spotify or whatever. And to be honest, a lot of the time you preserve my mix really impeccably when I do get involved in mastering criticism. For example, with Bleed From Within, you were sending over single masters while Zi was here and we were mixing and we did a blind test both of us up here using that fabulous Hoffer software. It took a few flicks between them before we could accurately identify which was the mix and which was the master. And I say that as a huge compliment and also it makes me feel very safe that you're not just going to fuck up my mix, which you've never done to this date. So it's all based on trust.

Speaker 5 (02:34:20):

Oh, that's awesome. But at the same time, it's almost a blessing and a curse because a lot of people, they'll go off our working relationship over the years and then send over a mix that could be called let's say Rough under the best case circumstances. And they just expect that I can work this kind of crazy magic in order to turn it into this esque product. And it's like that's not really what mastering is about. I mean, the idea is that you should be sending me something which already sounds kick ass and I should be making it sound even more kick ass, but on a wider variety of speaker systems, that's the job description. And if you want something more than that, what you're looking for is a mentor, which something I'm happy to get into. And as time develops more and more, I find mastering engineering is developing into more of a mentorship role where we guide people through how they build their mixes. And I think ironically in some way they tend to get a lot more benefit from that mentorship than they get from the mastering process itself, which obviously Nolie doesn't need in the slightest, which is why our dynamic is so very straightforward and simple and beloved by me.

Speaker 3 (02:35:26):

I'm wondering, didn't Jens spa and about 10 years ago have some kind of service as part of his mastering package, which was like a mixed criticism before you send him the final Master? It seems like quite crucial step if you dunno what you're doing.

Speaker 5 (02:35:39):

Yeah, I recall that happening. I could never work out how to charge for something like that though. So I just kind of bundle it as part and parcel of the mastering process. That's great.

Speaker 2 (02:35:47):

I don't remember if Ys did that, but I'm not surprised. Okay. So Colby is wondering, Nolly, when augmenting live snare tracks with sampled rooms, are you matching the samples to the live snares pitch

Speaker 3 (02:36:01):

Broadly? I mean, I don't like the sound of a low pitched snare in the close mics, whether it's a sample or the real one, followed by the sound of a really pingy snare room channel. And thankfully just through GGD and through me having samples of most of the productions I've worked on as well as personal samples that I've made on other projects, I've got quite a fine array of different snare tunings, a lot of which have been done in just a handful of rooms. So even if certain songs on a record have a different snare tuning, I can typically pull a sample of the same room, but with a lower tuned sample say to match a lower tuned natural snare. And you wouldn't know. It kind of sounds like everything's coherent. So yeah, I definitely don't like a big mismatch and I don't really go for the layering a high tuned close sample with a low tuned close mic or vice versa. I tend to to just hear one drum at a time.

Speaker 2 (02:36:55):

Got it. Okay. Ermin his question, you kind of somewhat answered a little bit before, but I'm going to ask it anyways. I think that could zero in on it a little more. When receiving the mix from someone as seasoned as Nolly, what do you seek to add in the mastering phase? Do you try not to alter the mix too much in this case?

Speaker 5 (02:37:17):

Yeah, right. Well, I guess if you ran off, you kind of get the whole spectrum here. So I guess we're touching on the same point, but I'll try and elaborate a little bit.

Speaker 2 (02:37:25):

If you could elaborate maybe also on say, what is the difference between when you have to be heavy handed versus not?

Speaker 5 (02:37:33):

Sure. So when it comes to mastering, one of the hardest things we have to do is work backwards. So if somebody has overcooked a mix, which occasionally people tend to do, they'll tend to look at let's say nolie mixing videos and say, Hey, I need to kind of annihilate my snare with this mixed bus compressor setting on the master and then saturate the crap out of it with VTM. Now if you know what you're doing, those can be amazingly powerful tools, but more often than not, I'd say 80% of the time I would get an absolute just mess of a mix. And guys, they cannot understand why we can't work backwards from there in order to get the sound that they're chasing. So one thing I always advocate is to undercook as opposed to overcook. If you don't know what you're doing with a mix bus compressor, believe it or not, you're actually better off not having anything on the mix bus at all.

(02:38:16):

This is something where Mark Lewis and I meet eye to eye real big time where we just try and minimize all of our top-down processing on certain elements, especially, and I advocate this more as a universal approach because it's much easier to not ruin your mix doing that. The reason that it works for Nolie is because he's been doing this for a very long time and he knows exactly what those processes are doing to his mixes. So in his case, it'll tend to depend on some mixers. He'll send them a little bit more cooked than others. In some cases, I'll have to really kind of tailor the sub low to make sure that it's portable and doesn't blow out your car system. On others, it might come in maybe a little bit dull, and I'm looking where to strategically lift the high mids and the top end, but it tends to be a gradual process of very minute.

(02:39:01):

And people will know this if they follow me on Facebook that I make a lot of jokes about making EQ moves in 0.02 DB increments, and I wish I were kidding. I really do. I really do. But unfortunately, that's a part of the process and with enough of those moves across the spectrum with enough kind of gradual saturation and little compression processes and various forms of limiting and the kind of things that you pick up with each stage of processing, it tends to kind of create a cumulative difference that's quite notable. Now, obviously in the case of someone like Nolie, I have to be very light-handed In many cases. He really knows what he's doing these days and he references our prior work in order to achieve his mixes, so they're getting closer and closer to the mastered thing. Whereas for younger guys, it might be a matter of really getting in there and carving away some mids and really lifting three DB on the top end.

Speaker 2 (02:39:49):

Yeah, that's cool. Got it. Okay. Jacob Turco has a question for both of you. Do you use some analyzer tricks or balancing volume or the base against the kick drum as well as the bases dominant frequencies to its harmonics? Whenever I start looking at the EQ two surgically, I'm never too sure what to keep, what to cut or when simply to lower the

Speaker 3 (02:40:10):

Volume. I think that's something just where experience comes in, I think, and even it will change from mix to mix. I think some mixes, I use a lot of analyzer kind of tricks to try and get the low end if it's not coming together quickly and other ones, it just happens very, very easily. I think it depends on the arrangement a lot of the time as well and the kind of range that the instruments are playing in. But I do really like to use analyzers and I use them at different amounts of resolution and different slopes depending on the instrument that I'm working on, because sometimes too much detail is kind of handicaps my workflow. And sometimes too little detail might make me, if you've got a very smoothed out slope of the low end, you might be cutting in the wrong places if you're just going by eye.

(02:40:56):

But I think there's a general rule, and this is maybe a bit of a bad thing to say really, but I think if I'm hearing something and it sounds good, but it looks wrong on an analyzer that I trust, I'll tend to trust the analyzer over my ears because more than often what happens if I don't do that is I come back to it later or the next day and realize that I just lost a bit of perspective. So I do rely fairly heavily on analyzers, but I know what I'm looking for out of them, and I'm creating the character of the sound before I pull up the analyzer as well. I'm working with source tones that have a character that's going to lead to a good mix, or I might work with a less surgical kind of EQ or compressional transient designer to get things into the ballpark before I start the super analysis. Awesome. Great answer.

Speaker 5 (02:41:45):

Well, first off, hey Jacob, we've worked together before and we hung out in Prague a couple of months ago, so it's good to hear from him again. In terms of the way I do this, I would say 90% of the time everything done regarding the low end is done entirely with my ears. The only time I'll actually look at an analyzer for anything is to maybe isolate where a kick drum peak is sticking out uncomfortably. If I'm working on a rapid fire collection of music, let's say the mixes are wholly different, the resonant frequencies of the kicks are sitting in different places, and I feel like if I'm going to try and zero in on that purely with my ears, I'm going to burn myself out. What's much easier to just load up an analyzer and see where that low end is peaking, especially if that peak is excessive and I need to pull it back in, aside from using it for convenience purposes to stop myself from burning out whenever I go in for the final check, the final spot check is always all ears. I've always found that to be the most finely calibrated instruments or measuring tool for handling these things.

Speaker 2 (02:42:43):

Okay. Last question. This is from Massie Han, and I'm guessing that this is for you, but honestly I don't know. He didn't say. At what point did you decide that you wanted to learn about electronics so that you could alter your existing gear? How deep down the rabbit hole of electronics and electrical engineering did you go?

Speaker 3 (02:43:06):

Soon after our last podcast, I guess so about three years ago, I kind of felt like I had enough control over the drum side of things engineering wise for that not to be such an active focus of mine, of experimentation. And I turned my focus to guitars, which had long been this kind of pink elephant in the room for me because I'd gotten into production as a guitarist and all I wanted was for my guitar tone to sound awesome. And then I got totally distracted by this huge world of engineering every other instrument. And I always felt like I had a relatively decent ear for what I liked, but I didn't necessarily have a good way of achieving it that was consistent. And so that just became my new obsession. And I started reading off about electronics and taking apart my amps and just wanted to be able to see the schematics, to know what the difference was.

(02:43:54):

Started buying a few different amps that I thought would solve my tone quest, and they might be 85% of what I wanted, but there'd be something weird about it. Maybe the gain's just a little bit too flubby, or maybe the EQ doesn't react quite how I like another Amps EQ to react. And I didn't want to just keep buying amps, which are expensive things to buy just to see if someone magically has put these elements together in a way that I liked. So I mean, I kind of intuitively knew that there couldn't be huge differences in the DPE go into the electronics. I'm not saying it's not an incredibly specialized and deep field, but there are certain things that you can understand quite quickly, like high pass filters in the gain stage and how the tones stack works. So how the base mid and treble controls work and the negative feedback. So general negative feedback, and then the presence and resonance controls that some amps have. If you understand those things, you can start playing around with the values of them, or even just looking at schematics of amps that respond the way you like and just copying those over. So I think the first thing I did was basically turn about three other amps into 51 fifties, because that was what I wanted them all to sound like. And I changed basically all the parts that made the major difference.

Speaker 2 (02:45:08):

How close did they get to 51 fifties?

Speaker 3 (02:45:11):

I mean, close enough. Some of them were EL 34 amps, so they kind of failed that. I got my 50 watt, 51 53 to sound nearest to my block letter. I mean, it doesn't have quite as much depth, which I think is because it's a 50 watt with smaller transformers. But once I'd done that, I kind of did that a bit and then I was like, okay, this is really pointless. I've just got loads of different 51 fifties, and to be honest, I'm still going to plug in the actual block letter 51 50 if that's the sound I want. So from that point, I just started thinking, well, what are the little things I can do to maintain the aspects that I do like about these amps and just tweak them in tiny ways. So my freedmen, I did, I switch maybe two resistors and a capacitor in that to just make the power amps sound a bit bigger in a way that I liked. And apart from that stock, because as much as some OCD parts of me might want to get in there and change loads of values, I don't want to end up where, again, I just have a whole collection of the same amp or not as good versions of a 51 50 basically, which was definitely the route that I was on in the beginning.

Speaker 2 (02:46:10):

Great answer. Well, Nolly and Ermin, thank you so much for hanging out with me today. It's been awesome talking again. I had a great time and let's not wait three years before doing part three. Sure.

Speaker 5 (02:46:25):

Sounds like a plan. Thanks for having us on.

Speaker 3 (02:46:27):

Yeah, I really enjoyed it. Thanks for bearing with us as we chatted. All sorts, went through all sorts of weird topics. And before I go, I want to make a really quick shout out to George Lever, who you had on the podcast recently. Oh yeah. Because he did some really nice shouting out to me. And for those that dunno, George and I met up through the sneak forum many years ago. Surprise. He is the only other producer that lived in the area, and he and I spent a lot of time together in the early days, and we worked together on a few projects and we don't see as much of each other as we should these days, but the two of us have spent a lot of time kind of developing our sounds together. And it's been really cool to see him getting some amazing gigs that he's been working on for some time and for them to come out as good as they have done. So just shout out to George there.

Speaker 2 (02:47:06):

He's a brilliant guy.

Speaker 3 (02:47:08):

Yeah, he's really, really good.

Speaker 2 (02:47:09):

I had a great time having him on the podcast. I didn't know him before that. That was our first time ever talking, but got along, immediately hit it off, and I really, really appreciate his brain.

Speaker 3 (02:47:20):

Yeah, and I think we're going to see a lot more of him moving forwards.

Speaker 2 (02:47:24):

I echo that. I do believe that as long as he stays in the game, he's got a really bright future ahead of him. For sure.

Speaker 3 (02:47:32):

Cool. All right, well thanks guys.

Speaker 2 (02:47:34):

Okay, then another URM podcast episode in the bag. Please remember to share our episodes with your friends as well as post them to your Facebook, Instagram, or any social media you use. Please tag me at al Levi URM audio. And of course, please tag my guests as well. Till next time, happy mixing. You've been

Speaker 1 (02:47:55):

Listening to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast. To ask us questions, make suggestions and interact, visit URM Academy and press the podcast link today.