JERIS JOHNSON: TikTok Fame, Creating “Jeris Core”, Breaking Pop Rules

Speaker 1 (00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast, and now your host, Eyal Levi. Welcome to the URM podcast. Thank you so much for being here. It's crazy to think that we are now on our seventh year. Don't ask me how that all just flew by, but it did. Man, time moves fast and it's only because of you, the listeners, if you'd like us to stick around another seven years and there's a few simple things you can do that would really, really help us out, I would endlessly appreciate if you would, number one, share our episodes with your friends. Number two, post our episodes on your Facebook and Instagram and tag me at al Levi URM audio and at URM Academy and of course our guest. And number three, leave us reviews and five star reviews wherever you can. We especially love iTunes reviews. Once again, thank you for all the years and years of loyalty.

(01:01):

I just want you to know that we will never charge you for this podcast, and I will always work as hard as possible to improve the episodes in every single way. All we ask in return is a share a post and tag us. Oh, and one last thing. Do you have a question you would like me to answer on an episode? I don't mean for a guest. I mean for me, it can be about anything. Email it to [email protected]. That's EYAL at m dot A-C-D-E-M-Y. There's no.com on that. It's exactly the way I spelled it. And use the subject line. Answer me Eyal. Alright, let's get on with it. Hello everybody. Welcome to the URM Podcast. My guests today are Jeris Johnson and his producer Jeris has exploded recently earning over 1 million followers on his TikTok in just the past few months. Fueled in part by his collaborations with Bring Me The Horizon and Papa Roach, his music is quickly skyrocketing upwards, and I'm super excited to have both of these guys on because I feel like they are the cutting edge of what's possible. If you totally exploit the technology available to you today, this is where things are headed. I don't necessarily mean stylistically, though. I do think that the music they make together is at the start of a trend, but I mean that the way that this music is made and distributed to the world is the future. So pay attention. I introduce you Sacco and Jeris. Sacco and Jeris Johnson, welcome to the URM Podcast.

Speaker 2 (02:34):

Yo, thanks for having us.

Speaker 1 (02:36):

My pleasure. So before we go into talking about your guys' work together, I want to say that I checked out audio phobia.

Speaker 3 (02:46):

Yeah, let's go. No, you didn't.

Speaker 1 (02:49):

Yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:50):

Who told you about that? Who spilled the beans?

Speaker 1 (02:53):

One of my business partners, Finn McKenty.

Speaker 3 (02:55):

Oh yeah, my boy Finn.

Speaker 1 (02:57):

Yeah. He told me me to ask you about audio phobia.

Speaker 3 (03:01):

That's awesome. He's spilling all my secrets. I thought I could trust that guy.

Speaker 1 (03:05):

No, actually, dude, it was really impressive. Way better than anything I was doing when I was 14.

Speaker 3 (03:13):

That is something I have heard even back then by everybody was just like, damn, these kids are, we would turn heads everywhere. We were just young and just happened to luckily find a group of guys who are all the same age that we were, all professionals that are young age and just we're able to do that. Of course, I thought the band was going to unfold and to be this, I thought that was my path. I thought it was going to be fucking getting record deals and big tours and all that stuff. And then of course, real life happened and everybody went off to college except for me, dude,

Speaker 1 (03:53):

To be fair though, not kissing your ass or anything, but if it was going to happen to any group of 14 year olds, that would be the one I would expect at least. I was seriously surprised. I mean, dude, you hear a lot of shitty bands and even when people do good stuff as adults, you hear their first bands and it's like, yeah, well, you can tell that maybe something cool is going to happen one day. But it sounded like you guys knew what you were doing.

Speaker 3 (04:26):

Yeah, like I said, I was very much trying to make that the thing. I put everything into that band. A hundred percent just unfolded the way it unfolded, obviously, and I'm glad it did. But had we have kept going, we definitely would've gotten silent. It would've inevitably reached the conclusion that I would've wanted it to, but life didn't work out that way.

Speaker 1 (04:48):

I'm pretty sure of it. The reason that I'm bringing it up, other than that I was impressed with it, is that our listeners on this podcast are in a large part, metal people,

Speaker 2 (04:59):

Sick

Speaker 1 (04:59):

Metal producers and metal musicians. And the way that you blend metal into what you're doing is very interesting because it's super organic and you can tell that it's coming from a legit background and legit knowledge of the genres, but obviously you're not making metal. And it's one of those things that it's very hard, I think, to blend it in with other genres successfully. Usually when people do that, it ends up sounding like a Chevy Trucks commercial or something,

Speaker 3 (05:35):

Home

Speaker 1 (05:36):

Depot commercial or something. You know what I'm saying? It's very hard to pull off. So I thought it was interesting to see that your background in heavier music is actually a real background in heavier music and it kind of makes sense.

Speaker 3 (05:49):

Yeah, it was all I ever wanted to listen to at that time period.

Speaker 2 (05:54):

I think that's what makes it come out just kind of sounding natural and organic too. I mean, literally when he's in the studio, there's not a single guitar that's not in Drop d just to start, I mean,

Speaker 3 (06:05):

Or lower.

Speaker 2 (06:05):

Or lower or

Speaker 3 (06:06):

Lower depending on the guitar.

Speaker 2 (06:07):

Yeah, well drop B.

Speaker 3 (06:09):

Yeah, drop a. Yeah, drop a.

Speaker 2 (06:11):

But it just because that's so a part of his core when even though his pop sensibility is insane and the melodies are super cool, it just kind of naturally comes out in ways that's super, just different. Not what you'd expect. So

Speaker 1 (06:28):

You can hear the vocal influence all over the place. It's weird though, because it's not what you would expect, but it also doesn't sound out of place. And I guess that when creating new genres, I've thought about it a lot that really kind of is what goes into it is usually new genres are a combination of two unexpected things, but that don't seem unexpected. When someone finally does it, it's like, oh,

Speaker 3 (06:52):

Why didn't anybody else think of that shit?

Speaker 1 (06:53):

Yeah, this is so obvious.

Speaker 3 (06:55):

Yeah. I always want mine to be a combination of six things, you know what I mean? Just completely undefinable. People have been

Speaker 1 (07:04):

What, six

Speaker 3 (07:05):

Fucking any of them? Anything day, dude? Yeah, I could do anything. Just like people have been throwing around this word. Some of my fans have been throwing around this word, which is kind of dope, and I kind of love it. And I also kind of don't know if I like it, but they've been calling it Jeris Core.

Speaker 1 (07:23):

Hey man, if you can have a genre named after you, that's a good thing. Luckily,

Speaker 3 (07:27):

I have a unique enough name to where it doesn't necessarily sound like a person's name right away, so it could just sound like a word or a genre. I don't know. I'm okay with it. We can invent that.

Speaker 1 (07:40):

Yeah, I can think of worse things to happen. So how do you guys know each other? Dude,

Speaker 2 (07:44):

It's actually really funny. So Jeris is from Eugene. I went to college in Eugene at University of Oregon. We didn't meet there, which that's very, it's smaller cities, kind of like a college town, really centered around that, but definitely could have met there,

Speaker 1 (07:58):

But we didn't.

Speaker 2 (07:59):

Yeah,

Speaker 1 (07:59):

But you met in la

Speaker 2 (08:01):

Met in la, yeah. Jar's manager at one point reached out and was trying to get a session, but I didn't take the session at the time and I just quit my job. My part-time job was like, I'm going to go music. So I kind of unfortunately had to be very selective with what I was working on. And I had bills to pay, so I had to really just take paid gigs because I was like, shit, I got rent due. At one point, Jeris just reached out and was like, dude, what would it take to do a song together? And I was like, all right, come on down, let's do a couple days. And that very first session, I was blown away by his talent level. I hit him after with just like, dude, what? I send you a text,

Speaker 3 (08:37):

Send me the nicest text anybody's ever sent me in my life. Dude, you have just so nice just saying how surprised he was by the session and just how dude about my mindset and attitude and everything and just had nothing but nice things to say. And that begun the bromance, if you will, definite

Speaker 2 (09:00):

Bromance.

Speaker 1 (09:01):

Interestingly enough, one thing that I noticed when producing a lot is even if I was working with good bands or talented bands, actually working with somebody who's doing something different is pretty rare. Even when you're working with signed artists or career artists, it's super rare. So it stands out. It sounds like that's how you felt.

Speaker 3 (09:22):

Yeah, it wasn't like that at first though. No, I did not sound like how I sound today. When I met him, as you saw me at 14 or 15 years old, had all the musical talent in the world, very naturally talented at music, could drum, could sing, taught myself how to play guitar, taught myself how to do it all, and it could do it at a really high level, really young, but I just never figured out how to translate that into being an artist for a while. It just took me a while to figure out what I wanted to sound like, and even my own producing and recording abilities, just sitting in my room trying to get creative and make something that felt like me or felt like it pulled from my influences, but also was more like what I wanted to make in the future and all this stuff. And it just took me a long time to nail it. So when I first met him, I was not nailing it, but it wasn't bad either. It was just not what it is today. It

Speaker 2 (10:22):

Was just like clean pop. And the thing is though is that's just a part of the growing pains of being an artist. I don't know anyone who made their first song and is like, this is it. This is me as an artist. Or at least that's stayed true.

Speaker 1 (10:37):

If they do say that, they're probably delusional.

Speaker 2 (10:39):

Yeah, they're delusional. Or maybe it feels like that in the moment, but give it a year and they look back and they go, that wasn't it. What was I doing? That's just a part of the process. But it was the second that the rock influence started coming out, and then more specifically, just some of the metal stuff. It was like a whole world opened up. It was like this feeling of, holy shit, I'm in. I'm sold. I believe you as an artist. I haven't heard anything like this. This is it. Keep going, keep investigating. Let's dive deep down to this path. Let's go way past the line and reel back if we have to, rather than never get to the line. And I think that's honestly how we approach almost every song. We'd rather take it too far and then dial it back in than not go far enough.

Speaker 1 (11:22):

That makes perfect sense. So just out of curiosity, if it was just clean pop, when you guys first met, what was it that set the light bulb off in your head that made you think, yeah, I should work with this kid?

Speaker 2 (11:35):

This is what's really crazy is that we came to the same conclusion independently at the same time, which is really wild. We had worked together, done a few songs and Sticks and Stones was the first one where this, it still is pretty soft relative to some of the other stuff we're doing now, but there still is those heavy guitars. And it was the first time this rock influence came out and it was like, oh, this is definitely the most interesting song we've done. I'm curious about this. And then he's also an incredible producer, let alone writer and artist and his chops are insane. And so he was doing, producing some of his own music and kind of just going through a self-discovery phase. I had mixed that project that he had produced. I was sitting there thinking about it after, I was like, man, obviously this guy is insanely talented, but I'm not buying this project yet.

(12:26):

And it was like, well, it's because sticks and stones is the most authentic sounding thing we've done, and it's the rock influence that's coming out. And so I was getting ready to sit down and have this conversation with them of like, man, that EP is cool. You had to go through that to get to, it's all part of the process, but why isn't rock and metal coming out in the music if that can come out? I think that you're going to really find yourself as an artist. And before I said a word, he said it all, literally, we sat down to have a conversation and he said everything I was going to say without me even saying a word. It was this kind of insane moment where I was like, did you just read my mind? Did I tell you this already? What happened? How did, yeah.

Speaker 3 (13:05):

And it's almost like that conversation, it's almost like it had to get out of the brain for that to happen. Then the next few demos and ideas I was making and producing were not even the same person. It just entirely different. All of a sudden the light bulb just flipped and it was like, oh shit, this is now. We're getting somewhere now. Now we're starting to make some art.

Speaker 2 (13:28):

Finally,

Speaker 3 (13:29):

Not just like I started realizing that I could be as creative as I was back in the band where I felt like I had no rules and I felt like I just wanted to make the craziest shit when I was in the band. And then when I started doing pop music, I was just trying to make what I thought would be a hit or what I thought people would like or whatever. And then all of a sudden I realized I could be just as outside the box and creative in my own music. And that's kind of what really led me to discover how to make Jeris sound like Jeris because I had kind of abandoned a part of me for a while because I just like, oh, I'm just over this rocking metal shit and it's just boring now. It all sounds the same and blah, blah, blah.

(14:15):

And I was just like, it just wasn't cool anymore. It didn't feel young anymore. It didn't feel like it didn't, it was popular anymore or anything like that. Just felt like it was kind of a dying thing and I was just like, I don't know, just started getting over it and went down this whole other path and it took me kind of rediscovering my roots in a creative way and just being like, I can be as extreme as I want to be, and maybe I should just do that instead of try to make a pop song. Maybe I should just make some crazy shit that entertains me and that's what's going to pop off. And sure enough, that's when I started going viral. It was when I started just being myself.

Speaker 2 (14:58):

But what is the biggest blessing of that whole thing is I know, again, you have to go through that process to really figure out, oh, and be sure of this is me as an artist. I know this for a fact because I've been to other places and I know that this is home, but in that venture into the pop world and pop songwriting, just the pop sensibility that you learned and retained, I mean, it comes through in the music now and that's what allows you to put in this metal influence and this heavy rock influence, but still make it catchy as fuck. And the average listener could be like, yo, this is harder than I normally listen to, but this is sick. I can latch onto this because you understand melodies and rhythm and how to make a pop song, and now you knowing these rules and internalizing these rules, you can break them because you can break them intelligently and do them in ways that's unique and creative. And I have this conversation all the time, but John Bellion is one of my favorite artists personally, but you see him, his stuff, his artist stuff is so inspiring to me. It's super left to center, but he knows how to write the hits. I mean, he's on, he did the Bieber record, he's working Maroon five and Halsey and whatever, and he's having huge successes in that, but when you listen to his artist shit, he's breaking all the rules, but in the coolest ways because he just knows the rules so well,

Speaker 1 (16:11):

I've thought about this a lot. I'm curious how you guys feel about it. I think that trying to predict what other people are going to respond to is it's like astrology or something. It doesn't really work, and if you try to make your music something that if you're trying to just do it in order to please other people, you're going to end up not pleasing people. Someone's always going to dislike it, so the best bet is to just do something that excites you, that is who you are, and hopefully who you are as an artist resonates with enough people. I really think that there's no real secret to it other than do something honest, and if you're lucky, it will resonate with people and they'll respond. Can't fake it. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (16:57):

I feel a hundred percent the same way. It's like, honestly, you kind of see a similar translation when it comes to live shows too. It's like if someone gets on stage and is trying to be this cool person, this and that, it feels corny. It's not authentic, but if you see someone who's up there just having fun in the time of your life, that's when you get into it. That's when you're like, yo, I can dig this. This guy's maybe a little odd, but he's freaking jamming up there, and I feel like it's the same thing with songwriting and production. Yo, you can tell that artist had a hell of a fun time in the studio working on that, or you can tell that there's some pain in that process, and when you see those authentic emotions and you can hear them come through, that's when people resonate with it because it doesn't feel like it's trying to be something that is not. Just

Speaker 1 (17:36):

To add on to what you're saying though, there's no guarantee that even if you are being genuine, that it will resonate. That's kind of the risk you take as an artist by going out there. It might fall flat.

Speaker 3 (17:48):

I will say though, just to play devil's advocate, every time I've ever gone viral, I knew it was going to go viral. I knew it was going to resonate. I've never gone viral or had something get popular on accident just because that has never once happened to me where I've thought I didn't know it was going to resonate, and then it resonated. Every time something has resonated, I knew it was going to resonate, but I've had just as many times where I thought something maybe was going to resonate and it didn't resonate, but every time something has resonated, I knew it was going to resonate,

Speaker 1 (18:19):

But it had to resonate with you first.

Speaker 3 (18:21):

Of course.

Speaker 1 (18:21):

Yeah,

Speaker 3 (18:22):

Of course.

Speaker 1 (18:22):

That's kind of my point is that it wasn't like you were just painting by numbers because there's some pot formula and boxes checked, okay, this is going to resonate. It actually resonated with you artistically first, and that's kind of the gauge.

Speaker 3 (18:38):

And many real, many true hit songs, you know what I mean, are not the lifeless formulaic stuff. Even in the pop world, if you really truly have a huge hit, there's usually something to it where it's not just a whatever, but super inauthentic by the number thing. It's usually something about it that is a real emotion that feels authentic.

Speaker 2 (19:07):

Those are the ones that stand the test of time, even if it is a pop formulaic, this and that, it might have a moment, it might have, its 10 seconds of fame, but next year nobody's playing that song. It had a brief second, but it's the ones that are these you're talking about that actually last, and that's why songs, we still play songs 30 years old, 40 years old, because there's that feeling in it.

Speaker 1 (19:29):

Yeah, I think that pop music and popular music like distinguishing between the two, because there can be non pop stuff that's popular. I think that it gets a bad rap in that a lot of people, I think it comes from a lot of jealousy first of all, but I think a lot of people don't understand how rare it is for a song to resonate with a larger audience. It's not a normal thing. Most songs don't resonate with people. There's far more songs that don't resonate with people than songs that do resonate with people. And so in order for something to actually stand the test of time, it has to stand out. There has to be something authentic about it that sticks out from the crowd or else who will even notice or remember or care, right?

Speaker 3 (20:15):

Yeah. The worst thing you can be is boring, you know what I mean? Yeah. You

Speaker 2 (20:19):

Are not, sir.

Speaker 3 (20:19):

Trust me, I vow to never ever be boring. Like any song album I make, I want my career to be defined by constant unpredictability. The last thing I want to be is boring because then I'll just be fucking bored. I always want to be generating some kind of emotional response, and I don't even much care what it is. It's just as so long as I'm not fucking bored. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (20:53):

Dude, last night I was in the studio, we were cutting vocals on an album. The conversation we were having is that art is just a conversation. Art makes people feel things, and hopefully strong feelings, the best art you, you're passionate about, whether it's good or bad, it's a conversation to be had. And so I don't know if you got to see any of the comments in the Bring Me the Horizon, Instagram or YouTube, when we put out the Can you feel my Heart remix?

Speaker 1 (21:18):

I didn't see the comments, but I can probably,

Speaker 2 (21:21):

You can imagine what it was. All

Speaker 1 (21:22):

I can imagine,

Speaker 2 (21:23):

And you couldn't imagine absolute war, which means we've done our job, we've done what we set out to do, and we upset a lot of people.

Speaker 1 (21:32):

That's a good thing.

Speaker 2 (21:33):

Yeah, exactly. But invoking that strong emotion, that's what art is, whether you like it or not, the passion that comes from it, hatred or love, that is art to me, and just something that goes literally the worst reaction I can get in something is like, oh, it's cool. Oh my God, kill me now. I'm terrible. That's a

Speaker 1 (21:50):

Bummer. Yeah. So how do you define the difference between a musical product and a musical art? Or can they be the same thing? I

Speaker 2 (21:58):

Think they can be the same thing. There's a lot of artists and a lot of stuff that I've worked on too that just feels like a product. It's like a, Hey, I want to do something like Post Malone, so we're going to do a song like this. It's like, well, that's not art. What posted was art because that's truly him, but now you're copying it. And so it's like that to me is just like, oh, it's a product. It's something that fits into a box. But again, the art stuff that's truly unique is still a product. It's still something you're consuming and purchasing, but

Speaker 1 (22:28):

So it's both.

Speaker 2 (22:28):

Yeah, it's both. It stands out.

Speaker 1 (22:30):

Do you feel like everyone that is capable of making a musical product is capable of making musical art? Number one?

Speaker 3 (22:38):

Yeah. Fuck. No.

Speaker 1 (22:40):

No, I don't either. And number two, do you think on the path to becoming an artist, you have to go through the copy phase?

Speaker 2 (22:48):

Well, to answer the first question, I kind of slightly disagree with you on that. Are they capable? Yes. But that comes from them. They have to go through the burning passion and desire to be better, to be great, to do something unique, to go through the tears and the frustration and the struggle to get there. I think anyone is capable of that.

Speaker 3 (23:07):

Well, anyone's capable of anything.

Speaker 2 (23:09):

But I think

Speaker 3 (23:09):

Most that speaking anyone's

Speaker 1 (23:12):

Capable of murder too,

Speaker 3 (23:14):

Most anyone's capable of, I believe in people, anyone's capable of achieving anything. I was never taught to have any limiting beliefs about anything. So anybody is technically capable of anything.

Speaker 2 (23:26):

It's just most people

Speaker 3 (23:26):

Won't. I felt like the question was more just realistically speaking, does the average person who's fucking making a music, what is there 58,000 songs uploaded to Spotify a day or some shit like that? Something

Speaker 1 (23:40):

Like that.

Speaker 3 (23:41):

Yeah. It's insane. I'm sorry. But most of those people are not artists.

Speaker 2 (23:45):

They're not. That's true.

Speaker 3 (23:46):

They're just people putting shit on the internet. There's a big difference really.

Speaker 2 (23:51):

As a student of music, I think there's something incredibly valuable about that. It's like watching a movie. You can learn and pick up tips on how to make a film, and even if it's just camera, angles, coloring, dialogue, whatever it is, there's a lot to be learned from. So I think that there's a kind of fundamental phase, especially when you're starting of just discovery and learning how to create something that sounds sonically good, but there's also a point where you have to move past that. So I think it can be a totally crucial part of discovery of yourself, but I think that you can't live there forever or else if you're

Speaker 3 (24:27):

Doomed. It arguably has to be because you can't, I have to learn how to play an instrument somehow. Somebody's got to teach me or I have to copy somebody or whatever, you know what I mean? Got to

Speaker 1 (24:37):

Learn the language. I

Speaker 3 (24:38):

Have to learn how to play back in black on a guitar or something that's copying. Technically,

Speaker 2 (24:44):

It hits so close to home

Speaker 3 (24:45):

Or whatever. You know what I mean? Even when you're first producing, it's going to be impossible to get on the computer and just start making art, just start making shit. It's just like, no. You usually go, okay, you like this type of music, or you like this artist. So you try to figure out how do they do it? How do they make it sound like that? And you start looking up tutorials, you start doing this and that and the other. But yeah, that's just getting your fundamental, how to play the computer or how to play the guitar or whatever. It's just your fundamental learning and yeah, probably everybody has to go through that on some level, even if you're just like the way I used to teach myself drums was just playing along the songs and stuff in my headphones while I was playing them and just trying to match, trying to match it and doing that. So it's just like everybody, I think has to do something like that to get started. But yeah, there is that breaking point. Once you have developed some sense of fundamental, I can, I have the ability to create stuff now at that point is the fork in the road. Yeah,

Speaker 1 (25:50):

That makes sense. So many of the huge monumental rock bands like Historical Ones, led Zeppelin, the Beatles, and moving forward through Time to the age of YouTube covers, whole lot of 'em started as cover bands, which says something

Speaker 3 (26:10):

Like

Speaker 1 (26:10):

Beatles played five hour sets, six days a week of Pure covers for years. There's so many artists who traditionally started as cover artists, and I think that it's similar to when you go and you get a fine art degree. A whole lot of the time is spent recreating other people's stuff because you're just learning the tools of the trade.

Speaker 2 (26:37):

But

Speaker 1 (26:37):

I agree, there does come a point where if you have a personality, it's going to have to start getting injected there somehow.

Speaker 2 (26:44):

Honestly, it makes a lot of sense that those bands started that way because it'd be rare to put four talented musicians in a room who've never played together and expect them to make something great. In fact, I think that inherently the trust that a songwriter and producer, and especially with an artist that develops is one of the most important things in creating art. We inherently trust each other. If Jeris has a strong feeling about something, if it makes me uncomfortable, I go, all right, I trust you. I know that we're not going to let each other fall, and that trust is so important in creating something great. So with four people who are talented musicians, and especially when egos get involved, and it'd be so rare for something magical to happen, and so to develop that trust with each other is how you get to what the Beatles ended up going on to do and what Zeppelin did in any of those bands

Speaker 1 (27:34):

And so many bands that came later too. Yeah.

(27:37):

Yeah. The cover, I mean, you guys know it, the cover stuff, it never stopped. It just kept going. Yep. Hey, everybody, if you're enjoying this podcast, then you should know that it's brought to you by URM Academy, URM Academy's mission is to create the next generation of audio professionals by giving them the inspiration and information to hone their craft and build a career doing what they love. You've probably heard me talk about Nail the Mix before, and if you're a member, you already know how amazing it is. The beginning of the month, nail the mix members, get the raw multi-tracks to a new song by artists like Lama, God Angels and Airwaves. Knock Loose eth shuga, bring me the Horizon. Gaira asking Alexandria Machine Head and Papa Roach among many, many others over 60 at this point. Then at the end of the month, the producer who mixed it comes on and does a live streaming walkthrough of exactly how they mix the song on the album and takes your questions live on air.

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And these are guys like TLA, will Putney, Jenz Boren, Dan Lancaster, to I Madson, Andrew Wade, and many, many more. You'll also get access to Mix Lab, which is our collection of dozens of bite-sized mixing tutorials that cover all the basics as well as Portfolio Builder, which is a library of pro quality multi-tracks cleared for use in your portfolio. So your career will never again be held back by the quality of your source material. And for those of you who really want to step up their game, we have another membership tier called URM Enhance, which includes everything I already told you about, and access to our massive library of fast tracks, which are deep, super detailed courses on intermediate and advanced topics like gain, staging, mastering, low end and so forth. It's over 500 hours of content. And man, let me tell you, this stuff is just insanely detailed.

(29:29):

Enhanced members also get access to one-on-ones, which are basically office hour sessions with us and Mix Rescue, which is where we open up one of your mixes and fix it up and talk you through exactly what we're doing at every step. So if any of that sounds interesting to you, if you're ready to level up your mixing skills in your audio career, head over to URM Academy to find out more. I'm curious what you guys think about this thought too. A lot of people have asked me, and I've seen this, asked a lot of people on the podcast or on Nail the mix, or whenever in my career, how do you develop your own sound and as a producer, as a guitar player, whatever, and I've always thought that you don't really need to try to create your own sound. You just should follow your passions and try to get good as good as possible, and then your personality will come through. I mean, you have to obviously make the decision to allow it to come through, but if your musical personality is unique, you don't have to try to do that. That's just who you are, and by getting better and expanding your ability to use the musical language, your unique sound is just going to come through because you are going to come through. What do you guys think?

Speaker 3 (30:51):

Yeah, dude, it's funny is like I have been asked this question, I've been asked an exact question like this before where it's like, how do people dam me on Twitter or all my live streams or anything and be like, how do you make something that sounds unique? How do you make your own sound? How do you make your own genre? How do you do this? What are you doing? And I don't know, you just do it, don't know, because

Speaker 1 (31:20):

You're just being yourself.

Speaker 3 (31:21):

You just do it. There's honestly no advice to even offer because I don't even know what's happening when I'm doing it. You just do it. It's like a language. You're just speaking. It just comes out and you don't much think about it. It just happens. And that's kind of what making music is for me. That's kind of what it's always been. It's always come supernaturally to me. It's always been very easy for me, super easy. Never once struggled with anything musical really. I mean, it's taken me time to learn the software and stuff or whatever, but as far as music stuff goes and music brain stuff goes, it's always been effortless. So I don't even know how to answer a question like that because

Speaker 1 (32:05):

I think that is the answer. I

Speaker 2 (32:06):

Would say too, it's funny, I'm the opposite of Jeris in the sense that I don't think, I'm not naturally gifted with music. I've had to work really hard to be subpar, piano and guitar. I'm not that this kid can get in the studio, pick up any instrument that he's never played and figure out how to shred. He's been playing for years, and I'm just like, are you fucking kidding me, man? Unfair. But I've always had a love for music, but I wasn't gifted in that way. But for me, just putting in the hours and work and just doing it and over time learning what I gravitate towards and letting my influence come through. It's funny. I feel like I don't have a sound in production. I feel like I'm always just trying to figure out what is my sound or just be open to experimentation this or that. But all of my friends in collaborators are like, dude, I know exactly. When you produce something, it sounds like you. And I'm like, what? Really? That's crazy. I feel like I don't have that, but

Speaker 1 (33:04):

That's exactly my point. You can only be yourself. Exactly. You don't have a choice in the matter actually,

Speaker 2 (33:09):

Right? Jeris is pushing me outside my comfort zone. I try to do the same for him, and then we always are always pushing ourselves outside the comfort zone and with that is what brings the growth. But we're not out there trying to go copy someone's production or go like, oh, I want to sound like this person, because if we do that, then we lose our identity ever.

Speaker 1 (33:28):

Even if you did that though, it would still be filtered through your brain.

Speaker 2 (33:31):

You know what? Even if we did try, Hey, we're going to go do this, and we'd probably just, which we've

Speaker 3 (33:36):

Literally done with last Resort Reloaded and we've literally done this, but it's also just, yeah, it's like you can either try to accomplish someone else and you'll never be as good as them, or you can do your own thing and you'll be the best. Nobody else on planet Earth is going to be better at being Jeris than me, so I can be number one at something if I'm just me. That's the way to look at it.

Speaker 2 (34:01):

I know, man, give me six months. I'm giving you a run for your money.

Speaker 3 (34:05):

Everybody can make something that is unique to them, and then they can be the best at doing it. They can have that sound that is them that nobody else can touch because they're not them. Nobody's going to be, yeah, the amount of times you've had sex with people that want to do something like Post Malone or whatever, but nobody's ever going to be better than Post Malone at being Post

Speaker 2 (34:26):

Malone. I write that maybe it's unfair to me. I write that off instantly. If you come to me and tell me that you found your sound, and it's like, post Malone, I'm done. This session is gone. This doesn't matter to me because I know that I'm going to be making some subpar product and it's not art, and I want to make art. I don't do this because I'm trying to make money. Obviously you have to pay your bills and this and that, but if I wanted to make a lot of money, I would not have done music.

Speaker 1 (34:52):

There's other things you can do if that's your number one goal, maybe not the best career choice.

Speaker 2 (34:58):

It's not like, dude, I can't tell you how many for years was eating spoonfuls of peanut butter for lunch because that's what I could afford. And it's like, but I didn't care because I woke up and I loved what I did every day. So when it feels like work, it no longer is fun. And that to me is just like, oh, I'm making something that already exists and we're never going to be able to do it better than that person. So why?

Speaker 1 (35:20):

Well, because maybe people erroneously believe that if they do something like what somebody else did that was successful, they'll be able to recreate their success too. They want what that person has.

Speaker 2 (35:34):

That's definitely

Speaker 3 (35:35):

It,

Speaker 1 (35:35):

Which is impossible to attain. It's not a good pursuit. It's impossible.

Speaker 3 (35:39):

You can only create your life. You can't just go, I want my life to be like this person's life and just do that. It just doesn't work like that, everybody. I mean, I remember feeling like, oh man, I'm 25 right now, and there's kids that are in LA getting deals and shit, and they're like 17 years old, and I'm like, fuck, why couldn't that have been me? Why couldn't I have done that? But had I been that I probably wouldn't have landed at where I am artistically right now, and that might lead to a whole other thing. I can only live J's life. Everyone's got their own life path and own unique thing, and there's pros and cons to all of it. So comparing or either comparing or trying to recreate somebody else's life or success or art or anything is a completely lost. It's a waste of your life,

Speaker 2 (36:26):

And it will always breed on happiness. What you just said is like, yeah,

Speaker 3 (36:30):

You'll

Speaker 2 (36:30):

Fail forever.

Speaker 3 (36:31):

You will constantly feel like you're a failure forever.

Speaker 2 (36:34):

I obviously love your attitude on just everything, but life in general especially, you're like, I'm going to do me, and that's what's going to make me happy. I'm not trying to be something, I'm not trying to chase some fantasy life. It's like I'm going to live my life and that's where I find happiness, and that's where art comes from, or either happiness or deep sadness and pain or whatever. But again, those strong emotions,

Speaker 1 (36:56):

When people look at somebody else's life and say, I want that, they're not really looking at their life. They're looking at what that person is showing them about their life. When you look at someone's social media, you're not seeing their life. You're seeing little clips that have been curated.

Speaker 2 (37:15):

Yeah, you're seeing what they want to show you, which is very much and very often not what it really is,

Speaker 3 (37:21):

Except for me. Everything I post is real.

Speaker 1 (37:25):

But you don't post everything.

Speaker 3 (37:26):

Oh, yeah, I do. Yeah. I post it all. It's all up there.

Speaker 1 (37:31):

It's all real.

Speaker 3 (37:32):

You mean when you were crying

Speaker 2 (37:32):

In the studio the other night, shut

Speaker 1 (37:34):

Up, shut the fuck up with the social media following, have you noticed at all that people have a weird idea of what your life must be like?

Speaker 3 (37:45):

Oh yeah. Especially it happening. So I mean, in the middle of COVID and everything, I was basically nobody as far as fame goes until October of last year, a few months ago. So it's like this is very new to me still, and also it's new to me in this sense that I'm just pretty much famous on my phone, but in real life, I don't feel famous or anything. I feel like I've always felt I'm not on tour. I haven't felt that realness yet, even though I've got millions of followers and shit, I'm like, cool, but if I turn my phone off, then it means nothing. If my phone broke and I lost it, it would mean nothing because it wouldn't exist. It literally wouldn't exist to my life. So it's weird because people definitely view me as a famous person, even though I'm not even that famous yet, even at the level that I'm at my dms and comments and everything, when I invite people on live or we just did a radio show where we had callers call in and shit, and people were screaming when I answered screaming, losing their minds, weird, rockstar, just holy shit.

(39:03):

I mean, obviously I'm a fucking rockstar, but I was still like, holy shit. It hasn't felt real to me yet because I haven't had enough of those moments. It's been basically just notifications on a screen to me this entire time.

Speaker 2 (39:17):

I want to sit down a year from now and have that same question and see how you feel.

Speaker 1 (39:23):

A lot of people though, who have had the experience in real life, not on their phone, still don't feel like it means anything,

Speaker 3 (39:31):

And it might not. I don't know yet. I've just decided that I'm going to roll with the fucking punches. Ever since this started popping off and everything was going, I'm like, okay, Jared's like, this is what you always knew was going to happen. You knew you were going to get here. You knew you were going to be somebody. You knew you were going to do this. It was just a matter of when, not if. I just knew it was going to always happen. It just needed to happen eventually, and now it has started to have really officially happened. So to me, it's normal because I felt like I have spent my whole life just knowing and existing. It's already happened. I don't, I live at the place where I've already won Grammys and I'm already in the Hall of fame, and I just know it's going to happen. I fucking promise. I know it's going to happen. I don't know when. I don't know what song, I don't know what album. I don't know what exactly, but I do know what's going to happen. So it feels normal, and it might always feel normal because I've spent all my life preparing for it to feel normal.

Speaker 2 (40:40):

I also think too, to that point of, and this not to be all corny and stuff, but happiness really just stems from within, and so seeking the validation of others is never going to bring true happiness. And so eventually that gets old and boring. It might be exciting at first, but there's a certain point where you just don't care anymore,

Speaker 3 (41:01):

And I don't even care about being famous at all. I really don't care about that. What I care about is making crazy art that has an impact, and so therefore the natural side effect of that is high levels of fame, and so I feel like I'm just like, okay, I'm just going to have to be really famous. I don't want to really, but I'm going to have to be in order to do what I want to do, do this what I want to achieve. This is byproduct making sacrifices out here. I'm just going to have to be fucking super famous. So it is what it is.

Speaker 1 (41:43):

I do believe that you have to have that kind of mentality in order to persevere through the bullshit that life and this industry will throw at you. But also, entrepreneurs have to have that attitude too when they start their companies. This is a very important attitude to have because otherwise you're going to quit. However, we all know people who say that shit too and are completely delusional. So what's the difference? Is it just that you're right and they're wrong?

Speaker 3 (42:13):

Yes. That's the difference. It's hard to quantify. You're right. There are people that have big hat, no cattle syndrome, fucking talk. No fucking talk and talk and talk, and never heard that one before. That's great. No, dude, I thought I was like hella common phrase, big hat, no cattle. Yeah, great. Just that's great. Those people who fucking just constantly just, they're jumping from the next big idea to the next big idea, to the next big idea, to the next big idea, and all the while they actually never do anything. They just talk and just say, and the difference is simple

Speaker 2 (42:51):

Execution.

Speaker 3 (42:52):

Yeah, I actually am going to do it. That's just it. It's literally, it's also because everyone wants to say and look cool and look confident and stuff, but not everybody actually believe. I genuinely believe I am unstoppable, absolutely unstoppable, and there is not even a shadow of a doubt in the back of my mind or literally doesn't exist. So from my perspective, as somebody who has utilized this mindset and was taught this mindset growing up and has now seen it bring me a certain level of success, and it's going to continue to elevate that level of success, it's just the only thing I could say is you just actually have to believe it. You can't fake the mindset, the mindset's in your mind, it's in your brain. You can't fake it. You could say, and you could whatever, and people might not know, but if you in your head don't believe it somewhere in your brain, then you're going to always be giving yourself an out. There's always going to be a plan. B. My parents, I was lucky, very lucky to be raised with good parents. That instilled this mindset in me, and it's probably the reason I'm even doing this today is just because they were always, once we knew that music was going to be my thing when I was 13 or 14 years old, they were always like, there's no plan B. Plan B just distracts from plan A. You're not going to college. You're not doing this. This is your destiny. Do

Speaker 2 (44:31):

It rare, right?

Speaker 3 (44:33):

Do it. And I'm doing it. I'm fucking doing it. And that's how I will raise my kids. I will raise my kids to have that same unwavering mindset about life and what they want to do. They can fucking do it.

Speaker 2 (44:48):

What comes along with that though, and I don't think that everybody is ready to make, is sacrifice though.

Speaker 3 (44:53):

Yeah. The responsibility of it,

Speaker 2 (44:54):

The responsibility of that. It's like you can talk a lot and say all these things, but until you're willing to sacrifice living comfortably and eating well and maybe sleeping a lot, whatever it is for you, not seeing your friends, I can't tell you how many friends I've lost. I don't want to say lost because if I was to see him, it'd be great, but help me

Speaker 1 (45:15):

Discontinued.

Speaker 2 (45:17):

I don't get invited to anything anymore because I never went. And I'm okay with that because it's like I'm have this vision, I have this dream of where I want to be. I'm not going to let anything get in the way of that, and unfortunately, going out in the weekends gets in the way of that, and I stopped getting those texts. I'm okay with that, but not everybody is. And I think the same way your parents are like, plan A, there's only plan A. There's there's no plan B. They had to make sacrifices to do that too,

Speaker 3 (45:45):

So,

Speaker 2 (45:47):

And I think they led by example very well with that.

Speaker 3 (45:50):

Yeah, they did. Yeah, they did. My dad owned his own business. He just ran it, started it from the ground up, did his thing like that, and they always wanted to instill in me that mindset that I can achieve instead of taking the approach that probably most parents would want to take, which is like, okay, looking out for what's best for your kid and don't be risky and go to college and do this and blah, blah, blah. You're going to line it up like that. They saw in me that I had a true love and passion and natural gift that was given to me to do this, and they just fully supported it. My dad, my dad bought all my shit. He was the roadie for the band, set up the drums, the guitar shit, packed all in the van, went to every show they went to every, I played hundreds of shows, and I think my parents probably missed a couple max. They went to everything. They were super, super involved and supportive of all of it. And I think that helped me to believe in myself because I had my parents from such a young age believing in me and telling me, this is going to happen for you. You're going to do this. You're going to make it happen. And I just started to become the story of my life. I am going to do this. This is my destiny. This is what's going to happen.

Speaker 1 (47:24):

Installed the right software,

Speaker 3 (47:27):

Basically, literally. And then I was able to take that and then develop it into my own thing and take it even beyond what they taught me. So to me, that's the only way to do it. And you can get lucky. People do get lucky in life. People win the lottery and people fucking, it happens.

Speaker 1 (47:50):

People

Speaker 3 (47:50):

Get signed that shouldn't get signed and shit happens. It does get lucky, but if you are, obviously that's extremely rare, does not happen very often to hardly anybody. So you got to make your own luck and you got to do it yourself. And so to me, the only way to do that is to have that unwavering, full, 100% belief in yourself that it is actually possible to do what you want to do. It's not just a dream. It's not just, oh, you one in a million. Yeah, many times I was told that one in a million, oh, I don't know. It's one in a million. Everybody, all the, but they are

Speaker 1 (48:29):

Right though.

Speaker 3 (48:29):

They're right. But it's such a losing mindset to have, it's like, okay, if I had that mindset, guess where I wouldn't be sitting right here? You're like, well, I'm the one motherfucker.

Speaker 1 (48:38):

Yeah,

Speaker 3 (48:38):

And that's what I always told them. I was like, well, yeah, I am that one.

Speaker 1 (48:42):

The thing with the belief is I don't think that the belief creates anything supernatural. What it does is it makes you do the right things. It makes you execute. If you actually believe this great shit's going to happen, why wouldn't you sacrifice for it and do what the other guy?

Speaker 3 (49:01):

Yeah. I mean, it ain't like I'm fucking laying around in bed all day just believing it's going to happen and sleeping. You know what I mean? Obviously that's not what I'm doing. Obviously, we're out here fucking Yeah, doing it. Executing, actually, and everybody knows, most people know what they need to do in life. They know what they should be doing. They want to lose weight. They want to get money. They want a new job. They want to pursue their passion. They want to pursue their dream. Everyone's heard the stories. Everyone knows what it takes in general to be successful. So it's just a matter of actually doing it. Yeah. You do have to fucking literally work your fucking ass off. You have to make it your life. This is your life now doing this. It's your a hundred percent focus. Nothing else matters. It's your purpose in life, and people just don't, most people just are not willing to get rid of the distractions, get rid of the bullshit. They'd rather play video games, sit on social media, sit on fucking TikTok, drink, smoke, whatever, whatever it is, instead of doing what they know they need to do, if they want to have the life that they want. But people just, most people just don't do it. And so that's why most people don't believe it's possible and don't get there is because of all that stuff. They just are simply not doing what it is they know they need to do.

Speaker 1 (50:23):

Yeah. What's interesting about that is that's why I actually think there's not a ton of competition out there. For instance, with production, people say that it's a very oversaturated field. I don't buy that. I think yes, there's a lot of people who entry level do these things or have entry level bands or entry level everything because it's super easy to just buy gear now and get started, but someone that will actually execute all the way and will do everything that it takes to pull something off, that's super, super rare.

Speaker 2 (50:56):

Oh, absolutely. There are so many. I'm right there with you. I don't buy that at all. And yeah, there's a lot of people who like to produce and to spend their time making music and stuff, but I look at the producers who inspire me, and I'm looking at some guys like Ian Kirkpatrick an accident, and Ricky Reed and Dr. Lou, these guys who've clearly cut through all the noise, and it's because it's like they're not doing what everybody else is doing. If people are going right, they're going left, and you see people rewarded for that constantly, and that's a scary thing to do because it's the fear of when you're making something and putting yourself into music. You want people to like it and get validation and this and that, but all that stuff is just being willing to be daring and different. So yeah, I mean, think that's spot on. I think there's a lot of people making music, but to be truly a great producer is to challenge and to push boundaries and to be uncomfortable.

Speaker 1 (51:56):

I mean, think about what it takes, for instance, to, if you go through the studio system of becoming an intern and then an assistant and then et cetera, et cetera, the people who do that, they have to be willing to make no money for years. They have to be willing to do some really shitty work for a long time and years and years with no guarantee of ever ascending the ranks, ever even getting paid move to a city that's probably not where they want to live, where they can barely afford to live. All these things, every single time that you add one of these challenges in, it filters more people out. So with producers, first of all, they have to be willing to put themselves through all that. Then out of all those people, then there's the group of people who are willing to make those sacrifices, but are also cool to hang out with. So then out of those people, out of the people willing to make the sacrifices and who are cool to hang out with, then there's the people who actually know how to operate the stuff. Then out of all those people, then there's people who actually have an artistic mind. So that's four levels of filtering.

Speaker 3 (53:06):

There's

Speaker 1 (53:07):

Not that many people who

Speaker 3 (53:08):

Check all those fucking boxes,

Speaker 1 (53:10):

And

Speaker 3 (53:11):

If you do check all those boxes, you're usually somebody if you are checking all those boxes.

Speaker 1 (53:18):

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 3 (53:19):

You will be successful. No doubt about it. There's actually no way that that equation doesn't add up to success.

Speaker 1 (53:27):

I've never seen it not add up. That's the thing,

Speaker 2 (53:29):

And people might be in different stages of that in their career, but if you see all those attitudes, I mean, it's why you would want to work with someone. So whether they've broken through that level of success or not, you recognize those things and you're like, oh, well, I'm going to bring you in on this, and oh, you got to meet this person. You got to. It's because you see those things. So yeah, a hundred percent.

Speaker 1 (53:50):

In my own life, I've taken a lot of risks and pulled off some unrealistic shit. But the thing is, to me, it never seemed unrealistic because I always did equations like that. It's this plus this, plus this, plus this. Then it's super logical, kind of like we're talking about that if someone checks off all those boxes as a producer, they're going to be successful. It's like a foregone conclusion. And so I've always approached the things that I do my own ventures in that way. What are the conditions that need to exist in order for this to work out? And once I figure that out, then it's not so much about luck, it's just more about execution. I mean, there is some luck involved that you meet the right people or that you're doing it at the right period and history for where the world will even give a fuck. But that stuff aside, once you figure out that equation, then it is down to just relentless execution, I think.

Speaker 2 (54:50):

Exactly. I mean, that's how all great inventions were made. Relentless execution.

Speaker 1 (54:55):

Me and Finn always talk about what will we do that the other guy, will the other guy do this? No, we're doing it then.

Speaker 2 (55:03):

I love that.

Speaker 1 (55:04):

Yeah. I mean, there's several gauges that we use, but when we're doing something tough, we'll always ask ourselves, do we see other people putting up with this shit? And actually seeing this project through? No, it's too hard. Okay, cool. We're doing it

Speaker 2 (55:19):

Well, and you've been rewarded for it, and we'll continue to be rewarded for it.

Speaker 1 (55:23):

It pays off for sure. So anyways, I think this is a good place to call it. I want to thank both of you for taking the time to hang out. I've very much enjoyed talking to you.

Speaker 2 (55:34):

Thank you, sir. Please, thank you. It's been amazing. Really appreciate you having us on.

Speaker 1 (55:39):

I'm glad we got to do it.

Speaker 2 (55:40):

Yeah, shout out Colin for the intro, man. Appreciate you.

Speaker 1 (55:43):

Yeah, thank you, Colin. Colin Brennan's, the Man

Speaker 2 (55:45):

King.

Speaker 1 (55:47):

Wait, hold on. Real quick before we get off. Let's talk about him for a second.

Speaker 2 (55:51):

Okay. He's a madman. He's a fucking brilliant genius and I love him.

Speaker 1 (55:56):

How do you guys know him? Fuck,

Speaker 3 (55:57):

How did we get

Speaker 2 (55:58):

Dude? We met him when?

Speaker 1 (55:59):

Oh, through

Speaker 3 (56:00):

Papa

Speaker 1 (56:00):

Roach?

Speaker 2 (56:00):

Yeah, through Jacoby and stuff. When Jar's last resort, TikTok went viral and there was talk about maybe doing a TikTok together. And Jacoby very much was like, yo, I got to see what this guy's all about. I got to vet him, is the term he's been using. I got to see if he's a cool guy. And they were doing a drum day at NRG. Colin was obviously he's doing the album and was cutting drums and stuff. And so met Colin there, he heard a couple of the songs, and then we really connected with him on one night when he just was like, I've got this crazy idea. What are you guys doing? Let's meet up. And then we just sat in the studio and just vibed for hours on just what inspired us and cool music. And then we've gotten in and just done some weird cool shit. And his attitude is incredible with just music in general, how he sees it, the future of music, where it's going and how he approaches it. I mean, I feel like our visions are very much aligned.

Speaker 3 (56:54):

Yeah, he's legit. Everything Saccos said, pretend I said it too. He's

Speaker 1 (56:58):

A brilliant dude.

Speaker 3 (56:59):

Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (56:59):

Yeah. Alright, well cool. Well thank you guys. Dude,

Speaker 2 (57:03):

Thank you man.

Speaker 1 (57:04):

I wish you much more success.

Speaker 3 (57:06):

Appreciate it. You as well. Thank you, sir. Yes. I love success. I'm addicted.

Speaker 1 (57:11):

It's a good thing.

Speaker 3 (57:12):

Give me more.

Speaker 1 (57:12):

Alright then. Another URM podcast episode in the bag. Please remember to share our episodes with your friends, as well as post them to your Facebook and Instagram or any social media you use. Please tag me at al Levi URM audio at URM Academy. And of course, tag our guests as well. I mean, they really do appreciate it. In addition, do you have any questions for me about anything? Email them to me at al. At m Do Academy. That's EYAL at M dot aca MY. And use the subject line Answer me Al. Alright then. Till next time, happy mixing. You've been listening to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast. To ask us questions, make suggestions and interact, visit URM Academy and press the podcast link today.