ESJAY JONES: Building a career twice, why relationships are everything, and avoiding burnout

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast, and now your host, Eyal Levi. Welcome to the URM podcast. Thank you so much for being here. It's crazy to think that we're now on our fifth year, but it's true, and it's only because of you, the listeners. And if you'd like to see us stick around for another five years, there are a few simple things that you can do that would really, really help us out and I would be endlessly appreciative. Number one, share our episodes with your friends. If you get something out of these episodes, I'm sure they will too. So please share us with your friends. Number two, post our episodes on your Facebook and Instagram and tag me and our guests too. My Instagram is at al Levi urm audio. And let me just let you know that we love seeing ourselves tagged in these posts.

(00:00:57):

Who knows, we might even respond. And number three, leave us reviews and five stars please anywhere you can. We especially love iTunes reviews. Once again, I want to thank you all for the years and years of loyalty. I just want you to know that we will never, ever charge you for this podcast, and I will always work as hard as possible to improve the episodes in every single way possible. All I ask in return is a share post and a tag. Now let's get on with it. Hello everyone. Welcome to the URM Podcast. My guest today is Esjay Jones, a South African producer living in California. She's got a very interesting story because she got into a band like 10, 15 years ago that got really, really big in South Africa, as you'll hear, to the level of flying around on private jets. And then went from there and came to the US and started from ground zero and built up this production career that led to her now working with people like Head from Corn, Jason Rauch, from Breaking Benjamin Alien Out Farm and all kinds of other people. She's a very, very interesting person. And an example of really what you can pull off if you just put your head down, refine your skills to the utmost degree and really, really go for it. It's always inspiring to me to talk to people who pull off the seemingly impossible. So without further ado, I give you Esjay Jones. So Esjay Jones, welcome to the URM Podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:02:48):

Thank you. I'm so stoked.

Speaker 1 (00:02:50):

I appreciate you being here, especially considering the fucking jet lag you must be feeling right now.

Speaker 2 (00:02:57):

It's actually crazy because New Zealand is only three hours ahead in time, but a full day. But for some reason I am absolutely broken. It could have been the excessive alcohol in New Zealand, but otherwise getting old is no fun.

Speaker 1 (00:03:17):

What were you doing in New Zealand? You said it was some sort of a tour?

Speaker 2 (00:03:20):

Yeah, so I'm a part of a DJ duo as well as a million other things that I do. And so we were brought over by some promoters doing Y Tangi Day, which is the marai, like the tribal people doing a kind of get together and it was super cool. There was like 5,000 family and kids and it was a good vibe. And then we got to go up north and surf a little bit and hang out on the beach. It's beautiful, beautiful spot.

Speaker 1 (00:03:54):

That's quite the journey to go play some shows.

Speaker 2 (00:03:57):

It sure was. And then I threw in a session with New Zealand's biggest selling hip hop pop artist up there too, so never sitting still crazy times.

Speaker 1 (00:04:09):

Do they have a serious music scene there?

Speaker 2 (00:04:12):

They actually do. I mean New Zealand's so tiny. I related a lot to how South Africa was. Artists become such big fish in such little ponds and then when you step outside of your own country it's like, oh holy crap, how are we even doing this? But they have a really cool scene over there. There seems to be a lot of music support and people really like rock. They love hip hop. I guess it's the same everywhere. Really

Speaker 1 (00:04:43):

What you were just saying about the Big fish in a small market reminds me of something that a classification I always make when someone is telling me that a metal band is big or something, I always need to know if it's big for metal or actually big,

Speaker 2 (00:04:56):

Right?

Speaker 1 (00:04:57):

Because it's two completely different things.

Speaker 2 (00:04:59):

It really is. I think it goes for every genre

Speaker 1 (00:05:04):

I know from traveling and just from going all over. It blows my mind how many artists there are in the world that have massive careers or really great careers that people here in the US have never even heard of and will never hear of that are super active, like super accomplished, cool artists. It's really, really interesting. There's this German metal core band called Heaven. Shell Burn that.

Speaker 2 (00:05:34):

Okay,

Speaker 1 (00:05:34):

So they're this metal core band and I don't listen to metal core, but I know who the big bands are in that genre and there's the bands that are big here and everybody knows them, but then they go there and then they open for Heaven Shall Burn, heaven Shall Burn is bigger than all the big American Medical Corps bands over there. However, nobody here has even heard of them and this band has been around for well over a decade and they're a big fucking band. So

Speaker 2 (00:06:03):

I dunno what it is. I feel like Germany, that whole eastern block like Russia, Georgia, all those places, they just have this crazy metal in Rox scene, which America just doesn't seem to cater to that for some reason. I think we are so forced fed popular culture that we, even if we do love music of a certain genre, it's what's put in our face is less of that. Whereas these other countries are just the response to, I mean bands always say, and I'm sure that people have spoken to you about this a lot when they go on tour to Europe or to Japan or whatever, they're like, man, the response that we get over there is so crazy. Whereas America, which is 10 times bigger than any of those countries is just like people are suffering on tour. It's crazy. It blows my mind.

Speaker 1 (00:06:55):

I have a few theories on why that is. The first one is I think size of the us. So I think if you go to certain parts of the US, it's just as cool as any of those markets like Japan or Germany, but you can basically divide the US into five different touring markets, something like that.

Speaker 2 (00:07:19):

Now I'm interested,

Speaker 1 (00:07:20):

I don't know if this is actually true or not, so this is just how it works in my head. I look at the US as multiple touring markets. So in my head it's always like they're southeast, then that Texas area, then the West coast, Arizona, kind of nothing in the middle and then the northeast, right by nothing in the middle. I don't actually mean nothing in the middle.

Speaker 2 (00:07:49):

A lot going on's where all the great bands come from in the middle where there's nothing. Everyone's just

Speaker 1 (00:07:54):

Like, yes because there's nothing going on. But the thing is, so I think people when they talk about touring in the US being hard, they're thinking about all these different regions as part of one big thing, as opposed to looking at the southeast as one touring market, the Northeast is another touring market and I think if you look at it like that and compare individual touring markets in the US to foreign countries like Japan, I think it's more grounds for comparison there.

Speaker 2 (00:08:26):

Yeah, totally. Man. We had the craziest, I played in a band in South Africa for a couple of years and we had several number ones over there and then we decided, well, we've kind of hit the roof in terms of sales and the rock scene. There's a very small rock scene in South Africa and we hit the roof there. So we're like, okay, well let's spend every cent we've ever made and get a bus and tour America for three months. I mean we did 39 of the states in three months, like me and five Boys in a Ford E three 50. It was the NST experience I've ever had in my entire

Speaker 1 (00:09:10):

Life. We got to get terms just because you're saying bus, but E three 50 is a van, so is the terminology different?

Speaker 2 (00:09:18):

I think America is the only place in the world that has these giant ass cars and trucks and vans and buses. When I say bus, I mean a van, it was E three 50 was a van, but it was kind of like one of those, a school bus but a really small bus. What do you guys call those things? I dunno. It looked like that. And a friend of ours who was living in Atlanta at the time, pulled out the seats in the back and put this little faux bed thing in the back and we had a little fridge in and when we arrived in Atlanta, which was our first staff, and it was my first time in the States just so rad, we opened the fridge and there was 24 steel reserve in the fridge. Really, really classy.

Speaker 1 (00:10:12):

So when you say that you kind of got to what you would consider to be the ceiling of the South African market with four number ones, I guess that means if people listened to Rock, they knew who you guys were basically.

Speaker 2 (00:10:26):

Yeah, absolutely. So it sounds like absolutely. I mean, stealing Love Jones, which was the name of the band, it was actually called Love Jones, and then when we came over to the States, there was another band called Love Jones that tried to sue us for the name or something. And so we were like, well fine, we'll just call it Stealing Love Jones. I mean, we'd sold, I mean I can't even quantify what it was, but there's definitely a great rock scene in South Africa, but it's very divided. You get the Afrikaans scene, which is kind of the more the Dutch sounding rock scene, and then you get, I mean for lack of better terminology, kind of the white rock scene. And then you get Kao, which is kind of like the hip hop, and that's such a massive scene over there that it's kind of hard to sustain, but there's definitely a living to be made from it. And then I guess I was just like, there's no way that I wasn't born to figure out something in the United States, and that's kind of what we decided to do.

Speaker 1 (00:11:30):

So it just wasn't good enough for you.

Speaker 2 (00:11:33):

I mean, it was the best platform from which to launch myself, I think.

Speaker 1 (00:11:38):

No, I get it. But what's interesting to me is always when someone says, this isn't enough for me, it's just interesting to me. This is something that I used to wonder why I would piss off some people around me because I'd always hear, you should be happy with what you've got. Lots of people would kill to be in the position you're in. Lots of different scenarios over the years and I'd be thinking, no, I'm not even close to where I want to be. So I imagine there would be lots of people in the South African scene who would've been perfectly happy with the level you guys got to.

Speaker 2 (00:12:18):

Yeah, I mean I guess so. And I guess it's true, just I just wanted more and I don't think it was a super narcissistic fame thing, it was just I wanted to see what else was possible, which is really cool. And South Africa really does have as incredible as the music scene, as incredible as it is over there. It definitely is limited. And so being able to use that as a platform, honestly, I feel like if I was born in the United States that I would never ever have the success that I do now. And I know that's a crazy thing to say, but I feel like having the opportunity of being, once again, such a big fish in such a small pond kind of helped open doors for me in the United States, which I don't think would've happened if I was just another person born in the United States, but I could be totally wrong, but that's kind of how it feels. So I feel really, really lucky and really blessed to have had everything that's growing up in South Africa for the 27 years I was there gave me

Speaker 1 (00:13:33):

Also the thing that I think is definitely true is that anybody who's experienced that kind of success, whether or not it's in a major market or not, is going to be taken seriously right off the bat by other people. So I think that it definitely, it gives you credibility from which you can then move on from it. I always actually tell producers that if they're having trouble getting clients and they've done everything, they've gotten in pretty good, they have a studio, they've tried internships, everything, and it's just not growing, maybe they need to try to get in a band or something where their own credibility, their own name can get out out there and they can start making relationships.

Speaker 2 (00:14:23):

Totally. It's such a catch 22 situation because I mean absolutely have being able to say that I toured with Fallout Boy, Jimmy World, see the Evanescence, that's such a huge asset to your resume and there really is a catch 22 situation because there's so many incredibly talented producers and engineers out there and nobody gives you freaking time of day. And it's like, well, how am I not going to get there? If you don't give me the chance or the opportunity, then people keep going back to the same producers and the same engineers over and over again. I love giving people chances and opportunities because I feel like I was given so many, and that's something really important for us as people that have all of these great doors open to us, that we open the doors to future producers, engineers bands, at least give people a chance. I

Speaker 1 (00:15:22):

Completely agree with you. So how was it touring the us? You didn't tell me was it? I normally find that people who tour the US for the first time, unless they're really really big here, find it to be pretty demoralizing.

Speaker 2 (00:15:39):

It was so daunting, man. It was like, I mean, we were kids with stars in our eyes and I think delusions of grandeur, I've learned so much in these past 10 years of being in the States, it was just so big. The Americas, it's so massive where in South Africa we had a crew, were flying in private planes, we didn't have to do anything. We'd got to that point where kind of the lugging your own shit around had stopped. We got here to the states again and it was like being in a band from day one again, which I think was really tough mentally for all of us because we'd worked so hard and we were like, oh wow, we're freaking rock stars. And then now we are back again, offloading drum kits, bass amps, guitar amps, setting everything up, playing the show to one person, tearing everything down, putting it back in the trailer and driving 15 hours to the next show for one person.

(00:16:46):

So it was the most humbling, insane experience and I think if I could do it all over again, I would definitely do it differently even though I don't exactly know how I would do it differently because we paid a lot of money to try and have a career over here and America is the Rand, which is the South African money to the dollar is almost the same as the Peso. It's almost 20 to one, it's like 16 to one, so it's like $50,000 is like half a million rant, and that's how much we spent on the tour, just being able to live and basically just could have drawn $50,000 and set it on fire. That's kind of what I equate the tour to, but it was a great experience and I wouldn't be here without it. We actually ended the tour early because I mean, everybody was just partying too hard, everyone was, everyone missed wives.

(00:17:52):

It ended up just being an absolute shit show and luckily 10 years is down the line. We are all friends now and we love each other and we're success for everybody, but that's not how we parted as a band. It was just like we got to LAX and it was like you can go fuck yourself and I never want to see you ever again. That was kind of how the tour and the band kind of split up and everyone went back to South Africa. I sold everything up and came back to the States. I was just like, this is not it. This is not it for me. And then I discovered

Speaker 1 (00:18:25):

So it didn't chew you up and spit you out,

Speaker 2 (00:18:28):

Basically. I definitely hit a super blow time. I just got home and I think I have a really bad memory and I blame it to my excessive partying when I was a kid, but I'm pretty sure that I was in bed for about three months, just kind of like, oh, my life is over.

Speaker 1 (00:18:49):

Well, I mean one of the good sides of having a bad memory is that you won't remember how long and shitty the tour

Speaker 2 (00:18:56):

Was. Seriously. I mean, I remember the beginning and I remember the end, the whole middle part. I remember nothing. I do remember this one. I relate one crazy, I can't remember where it was, but it was something called Little Red Bar or something, and we ended up getting snowed in and so we couldn't play the show and so we ended up going back to the manager's house who lived. He lived in this crazy, it was like this haunted house. It was just had weird rooms everywhere. And we ended up taking shitloads of mushrooms that night and there was a teddy bear in the room, this giant sized teddy bear that was speaking to me the entire night. And I remember being the next morning going, holy crap, we got to get out of here guys. This is the craziest situation ever, but one of many bizarre tour stories.

Speaker 1 (00:19:55):

What was the teddy bear saying?

Speaker 2 (00:19:57):

Man,

Speaker 1 (00:19:58):

Who knows?

Speaker 2 (00:19:58):

I can't even remember. All I remember was that its head was turning around. Do you remember the dinosaurs? Not the mama. Do you remember that kids?

Speaker 1 (00:20:08):

No,

Speaker 2 (00:20:09):

It was, no,

Speaker 1 (00:20:10):

No. I dont know what you're talking about.

Speaker 2 (00:20:12):

The dinosaurs were freaking amazing, but there was this baby dinosaur and its head used to turn around. Is that

Speaker 1 (00:20:16):

The South African show?

Speaker 2 (00:20:18):

No, it wasn't. It's American show and the baby dinosaur, when he got sick, his whole head turned around and he was like, not the mama. Anyway, that was kind of the situation. Freaking creepy.

Speaker 1 (00:20:31):

Yeah, sounds like it. I've been on those hell tours before. We were on a few of them, and I remember one in particular in 2009 that lasted for about three months. It was our mistake for accepting it. We had two options. We had a bigger tour that was shorter but less money, and we got offered this smaller tour that was 90 days long through a summer. That was more money and our management, I knew better, I fucking knew better, but our management, I take responsibility for accepting it. But we did get kind of strong armed into it and on that tour we were taking bets to see which bands would break up.

Speaker 2 (00:21:17):

Oh my gosh.

Speaker 1 (00:21:17):

There were six bands that set out on it and only two bands were left standing

Speaker 2 (00:21:23):

No way

Speaker 1 (00:21:24):

At the end. And I remember those kinds of tours as the ones where you're driving 16 hours to play for two people or even 50 people. It's not worth it night after night for months. Super brutal conditions. And I know a lot of people who I guess they faced whether or not they really wanted to do it anymore and most people said no. As a matter of fact, around that time I also got honest with myself about not wanting to do the band thing anymore. I came to the conclusion that my original ideas were right for me. I think you got to be honest about your goals. I always said that I only wanted to do something huge. If it's not slip, not size, I don't want to do it. And pressure.

(00:22:20):

Yeah, well, I kind of stopped saying that because people get weird about it and it sounds super unrealistic, but then after being on those hell tours, it's just like, this is not what I want to do. I want to do this if it's fucking huge. If not, I want to find something else because I'm not going to feel right until I'm doing something that's making a significant impact. I'm not wired to do small things, but I think a lot of people would go on those tours and just be like, I'm out completely. This is over. Fuck this done. So I just think it's interesting hearing your story. You're in a big band flying around in planes. You think you're going to come to the US and continue that, but you get the brutal reality check of what it's like to tour in the US when people don't know who you are, which is basically being a local band. You're basically, for all intents and purposes, I mean you are the furthest thing from a local band in the US obviously, but it's like the same thing. If you're playing for one person and nobody cares and extremely demoralizing, I think that most people who would've experienced that, that would've been it forever. It's interesting to me that you took that as sign that you weren't done yet and used it to catapult to the next step. I think that says a lot.

Speaker 2 (00:23:55):

South Africans in general are pretty resilient. There's definitely something about the work ethic of people that I've grown up with that is different from a lot of places that I've experienced around the world. I think something that's really important to me is paying your dues, and I have so much more respect and more joy when I work with people that have paid their dues. It just feels better to me. There's a story to be told, there's a little bit more grit in that there's nothing worse to me than American Idol or something like that where somebody was a dentist yesterday and today they're the biggest fucking artist in the world. That just makes me so mad. And yes, I'm excited that things evolve and I'm excited for these opportunities because it creates opportunities for songwriters and producers like us to be able to actually make some good cash. But it's like, man, that really irks me. I'm just like, ugh.

Speaker 1 (00:24:58):

It puts some really fucked up ideas in people's heads about what it means to have a career in this, but it's not just in music. When Shark Tank became a successful TV show, the same thing happened with entrepreneurship where people thought that you just get an idea for this iPhone case that cooks for you and then Mark Cuban's going to buy it. And I remember being in line somewhere, this was a few years ago when Shark Tank was really, really big and popular. I mean it still is, but when it first got really big, someone was talking about some business idea he had and his friend was giving him advice on how to get that idea to the next level. And the business plan was get on Shark Tank, which is basically the equivalent of

Speaker 2 (00:25:49):

Crazy.

Speaker 1 (00:25:49):

I have a dream for music, American Idol. That's the path. That's such a fucked up notion of how things work.

Speaker 2 (00:25:57):

It's the worst,

Speaker 1 (00:25:58):

First of all, it's completely unrealistic. Most of the people who even get those deals on, whether they win American Idol or they get a Shark Tank deal, the majority of them fail because it's not based on anything. But beyond that, what you're not seeing on TV is the 20,000 people who got rejected. That part isn't really made a big deal of, so you're seeing 10 people that are finalists and then one person who's living this dream, but you're not actually, the public's not really understanding just how much of a lottery win that is and how just stupidly unrealistic and bullshit. The idea of winning that is,

Speaker 2 (00:26:46):

I feel like it also changes people's work ethic. And

(00:26:52):

I'm a believer in hard work gets you where you need to be. You want to be a great musician, you freaking better be in your room eight hours a day practicing. You want to be a great band. You guys got to be up there practicing three to four times a week. I feel like there's a pattern that I'm seeing in younger kids, and I don't think I'm old by any means, but it's just in people that are younger that there's this instant gratification thing that it's like people are very entitled and I don't like it. I believe that music is and it's a gift, and this is something that you earn. I really do. It's like having the privilege to stand up in front of people and play and have people listen to what you have to say and love your music. That's a responsibility and a privilege. I

Speaker 1 (00:27:45):

Completely agree.

Speaker 2 (00:27:47):

It's so crazy. People's work ethic is just like, oh, well, I'm a rich kid and I was in rehab for seven times ready, and I've never actually had a job in my life, but you guys should listen to my awful life story. I'm just like, oh my God. Where was the disconnect in life? God, I do sound old, but anyway.

Speaker 1 (00:28:09):

Well, the thing is I will say that, well, I've got two ideas on what you're saying. First is that I think at least as far back as I can remember, people were always lazy. So I remember in the nineties trying to put bands together and being so fucking frustrated because nobody had work ethic, and

(00:28:31):

I had a dream of being in a band where everybody practiced as much as I did, but I was not finding it and it was really, really bothering me. And I remember that from the nineties. So I don't think that the new generation has a monopoly on it. But I will say this, I think that with every technological advancement, there's obviously going to be pros and cons no matter what. Always pros and cons. There's so many pros to this technological revolution, but I think one of the cons is that if you were born to where the internet was already big, so like say 2000 and on or something, if you don't know what the world was like before that, so you're just born into this world we're in now, I think that it could fuck you up a little bit. So used to things being instant, I can see how it could fuck up your expectations. However, on the other hand, I will say that kids that I've met who from that younger generation are fucking smart because of the internet, their ability to learn and just the volume of shit that they learn and the speed at which they learn, and it's crazy.

Speaker 2 (00:29:45):

Can I tell you the craziest experience that I've had? I work with a lot of younger artists and Disney artists, and the craziest thing is when I'm sitting in a session and I'm engineering vocals, I keep having to look at my vocal chain and going, is there autotune on the vocals? Because it's so insane. These kids, their vocals are so insane and pitch perfect, the way that the vocals change from notes, it almost sounds like it's got that autotune slip on it. And I'm always just like, whoa, have I got an autotune in the chain here somewhere where it shouldn't be? That's a pretty cool thing. I mean, humans are pretty spectacular and brilliant things.

Speaker 1 (00:30:30):

I've noticed that too with vocalists. It also threw me for a loop. The first time I noticed it, it happened with drummers as well. I remember I believe that this drummer named Alex Inger, who is a fucking God, and he's younger than us, about 10 years. And so I started working with him when he was like 19 or something, and he was ridiculous on the drums, ridiculous and a lot more advanced than people from my generation. And I believe that what he told me was when he heard these records that we know were all edited and triggered and all this stuff, he didn't know that he was a kid. He thought that that's what they were actually playing.

Speaker 2 (00:31:23):

Wow.

Speaker 1 (00:31:23):

I mean, some of them were actually playing it, but he didn't know that it was corrected or he didn't know that samples were used on the kick to even out the velocities. He thought that kick drums have to be that velocity played.

Speaker 2 (00:31:38):

Wow.

Speaker 1 (00:31:38):

And so if that's what he thought, that's what he went for, and he became basically a superhuman drummer.

Speaker 2 (00:31:46):

It's insane.

Speaker 1 (00:31:47):

Yeah, because he grew up hearing these drums and thinking that that's just how drummers play.

Speaker 2 (00:31:54):

Wow.

Speaker 1 (00:31:55):

Now it is how drummers play.

Speaker 2 (00:31:56):

Totally.

Speaker 1 (00:31:57):

That's not how drummers used to play. I'm just noticing that all over the place. And so I actually have a lot of hope for the next generation as long as they don't succumb to the cons of living in this age. As long as they don't get too wrapped up binging things or expecting too much instant gratification, I think that they'll, they'll be all right. I hope

Speaker 2 (00:32:26):

It'll be all good. Everything comes back around, right? What do they say? 20 years? Everything goes around in twenties or something. So right now we're about to get the early two thousands back again, which is my favorite time in music. The post grunge new metal. That's my jam. I am hearing guitars on radio again, which is super exciting because I feel like people, it's just everything's been programmed and the human element has been dissolved from pop radio and now that it's kind of climbing and back up the charts and I can hear some live drums and there's guitars back in there, and I'm hopeful.

Speaker 1 (00:33:05):

Are you finding studio clients of yours are starting to lean back towards real instruments?

Speaker 2 (00:33:14):

I feel like there's still a big hybrid because sonically just how music sounds now. It's just so perfect and corrected and big. Whereas if you listen to stuff from the seventies, eighties, nineties, there's a big sonic difference. So I think people are still wanting that hybrid mix where it's like, Hey, can we get this on it? But can we layer it with a synth or something just to fatten it up? There's definitely a nice shift happening. Whereas before, I mean lot, for the past couple of years I've been working predominantly with more pop artists and everything's really just about beat making. We're coming back around now. My management team has me where I really want to be with rock and metal artists, and it's kind of cool to be sitting back in the studio and setting up mics and tracking drums. And obviously when it comes to mix that we do add samples in and we are layering stuff because things sound sexier that way maybe. Is that a weird word to say? Things sound sexier.

Speaker 1 (00:34:28):

No, it's true.

Speaker 2 (00:34:30):

But it is cool because I grew up in the church and I kind of learned everything from the church playing in the worship team and then kind getting behind the Allen Heath Zed 16 fx, kind of little fade aboard. So it's kind of everything. Everything's coming back to where I started, which I'm excited about. And why finding URM Academy? Wow, what a joy you guys are just to get online and watch through the mixed sessions. And I've had the privilege of sitting over the shoulders of producers and engineers that are massive. So I've learned a lot, but there's lots of secrets that I've missed out on that you guys are definitely helping me with, so I appreciate it.

Speaker 1 (00:35:17):

The thing that I think we're doing is getting on a record, historical record of the techniques of all these great people in this genre, because other genres have that. You can go to a recording school and all these best practices

Speaker 2 (00:35:37):

From

Speaker 1 (00:35:38):

All these other genres that are normal people genres. You can go and you can learn them. They've been documented. But rock and metal never was taken seriously in that capacity. I mean, some of the techniques definitely overlap, and engineering is engineering, but the specifics of these genres just were never taken seriously. There was nowhere to really find that stuff, which bothered me to no end. So let's go back to talking about you coming back after that disaster tour because I'm curious about how you ended up coming back and how that ended up turning into the career you've gotten now. Because like we said before, that could have been the end point, but it wasn't. How did you end up coming back?

Speaker 2 (00:36:29):

I was hanging out with Sean from See The for a little while, and he was living in Santa Monica, and I was like, man, I just want to come back and do great things. And he was like, Esjay, well, I think that you should move to San Diego first because LA will suck you in and spit you out. He's like, which is true, LA is a gnarly, gnarly place. It really is. It's like if you don't have a little bit of backbone or a little bit of whatever you need to have, it's like you will leave there a broken person. So I love him for that piece of advice. I moved to San Diego. There's a great community of South Africans there, so I had a little bit of a support base, and I basically just started gigging again from as if I was day one. I was playing at bars five nights a week for 50 bucks a night kind of thing, just having to do a hard reset on my life. And then I met somebody that was in the wait.

Speaker 1 (00:37:30):

Was that psychologically tough or were you cool with it?

Speaker 2 (00:37:35):

I think I needed to do it. I felt like, okay, cool. I've been, America beat me down and now I'm going to come back and I need to keep having some kind of an income because the money that I have saved is not going to last me very long. So it was like, okay, cool. I'm going to do exactly what I know what to do. Let's start from my small little town. So I literally beat down the door of every single bar and I was like, you guys need to hire me. This is my resume. I will do originals and covers. And I was doing three hour sets for 50 bucks every night. Now if I think about it, I'm like, holy crap, I couldn't even play one cover song. So once again, just building up that resilience and just being really good at your craft, being able to rock out on an acoustic guitar in front of strangers at a bar every night, being able to take requests, and these are not things that I ever wanted to do in life, but it was just kind of what I felt that I needed to do and I needed a job and I've never done anything else in my life but music.

(00:38:48):

So I had to figure something out to be able get from A to B in the States.

Speaker 1 (00:38:55):

When you came back, what was the goal? What did you want it to build towards?

Speaker 2 (00:38:59):

I have absolutely no idea. I just knew that I did not want to be in South Africa, that I don't believe that I was born to just kind of hit that cap. That's sort of where I was at, and whether it be delusions of grandeur or whether it just be stubbornness, I was just like, I need to push through and make something happen. So eventually this person that's a songwriter, and she's actually a really big producer as well, Jennifer de Sylvia, she taught me everything I know. And she saw me playing at a bar one night and was like, have you ever considered being a songwriter? And I'm like, what do you mean? I am a songwriter? How rude. Totally my ego or bruised. And she's like, no, I mean writing music for other artists. And I was just like, my mind was blown. I was like, what do you mean writing music for other artists? Don't artists write their own music?

Speaker 1 (00:39:54):

Your cables were crossed.

Speaker 2 (00:39:55):

Yeah, I'm just like, whoa. I had no clue until 10 years ago that the position as a songwriter even existed. I mean, I understood what a producer was, I understood what an engineer was, and in South Africa I'd been, before I'd kind of got into the band thing, I was interning at a studio as a second engineer straight out of school. So I definitely, I understood all of that stuff. I just had no clue that there was a job title as songwriter or top liner. And for those of you that dunno what the term top lining is, it's basically the melody and the lyric.

Speaker 1 (00:40:35):

Yeah. I didn't know what that was until about seven years ago.

Speaker 2 (00:40:39):

Yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:40:40):

I didn't know that that was a job.

Speaker 2 (00:40:42):

Yeah, it's insane. So I was just like, okay, this is cool. Jen basically just took me under her way.

Speaker 1 (00:40:49):

Wait, wait. She just saw you in a bar and that's crazy actually.

Speaker 2 (00:40:54):

Well, I feel like I've had these wonderful moments where maybe, what is the word that they confirm or affirm in me that there's something greater than just me because the same thing happened with my band in South Africa. This guy saw my band playing at a bar and he came up to me afterwards and he was like, I want to find your first record, just straight up, no strings attached. All I want is when the record's done, please put an album on my desk. That was it. Literally wrote me a check right there. No sex, no blow jobs, just straight up, just boom. He has $20,000 gone. His

Speaker 1 (00:41:43):

Name wasn't Harvey.

Speaker 2 (00:41:44):

No, fuck, no.

Speaker 1 (00:41:46):

Awesome.

Speaker 2 (00:41:46):

It was insane. And that's why I really, I have such wonderful hope in humans and why I really believe in just giving. And

Speaker 1 (00:41:58):

The thing about your story that happening multiple times, I do realize that it is crazy that that's happened, but it wouldn't have happened if you weren't putting yourself out there.

Speaker 2 (00:42:09):

Agreed. I mean, I feel you and I are cut from the same cloth. We are hustlers and man still, I mean, I'm 36 years old now and it never stops. I feel like in order to really get where you want to be in life, and now that I'm choosing jobs that I love more that pay a fraction of big selling artists, you have to keep doing many things in order to do what you love.

Speaker 1 (00:42:41):

That's actually an interesting point, and I think a lot of people aren't aware of this, but a lot of times when you're first starting to get opportunities along the lines of what you're looking for, you have to make financial sacrifices to make them happen eventually. That's no longer the case. But oftentimes when you're first starting to get the attention of a level above where you've been operating or several levels above, they're not just going to offer big money. You got to prove yourself. And so you're going to get offered what they feel like paying. And I think the people who understand that and kick ass regardless are the ones who end up ascending to doing really, really well.

Speaker 2 (00:43:30):

But

Speaker 1 (00:43:30):

I know a lot of people who have felt like they're too good to make that sacrifice, which is suicidal.

Speaker 2 (00:43:37):

It's either you or somebody else is going to do it. Yes, exactly. So I mean, that's every single day I'm still in positions where, and the reason why I have so many other kind of fingers and pies, if that's the right thing to say. But yeah, the opportunities that I'm given nine times out of 10 are not paid, but I want so badly to work with this artist or to have my name attached to them that I'm willing to do it, and it's the reward that comes from that. And I mean, I really think that that's an important thing to say, just go for what you love to do and then go and find another job just to pay the bills and then get back in there and build that resume. Even though I'm still doing it now 20 years later, if I didn't do it, I wouldn't get into the room with the corn guys. If I didn't do it, I wouldn't be in the room with Crazy Town and Alien and Farm. They open doors and then once you have those relationships, those guys will stand by me. There'll be just the way that I've heard other people say that they've spoken about me as an engineer and producer, those words are more valuable to me as a producer and engineer than $5,000 for a song.

Speaker 1 (00:45:05):

I was about to say, that's your payment right there in terms of future work.

Speaker 2 (00:45:10):

Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (00:45:11):

One of the things that keeps coming up over and over and over and over on this podcast, and I know it from my own life, but it's just something that I like to harp on because so many producers that I know that are coming up, I wonder where work comes from or if they should buy advertising or do all this stuff. And in reality, everyone I know who's done all right, it happened through word of mouth. That's how it works. That's always how it works. That's not the exception. That is the rule is word of mouth is what does it. And so getting people like members of corn to speak highly of your work, that is currency basically for

Speaker 2 (00:45:57):

Relationship is everything. 10 years down the line, when I was in San Diego, I was hanging out with the POD guys and W and I have kept a friendship going, and he was the one two years ago that was introduced me to my new management, Renee Martin at a m, and Renee was the one that I was at NRG meeting with him, and the gray days guys just happened to be there, which is the project that Chester was working on just before he passed. So all of these things, like the synchronicity of it all, it's like these relationships that I'd invested in 10 years ago are now paying off now. So it really is important how you treat people, how you present yourself as a brand, as a producer and an engineer and a human. This is your own brand and you are your own entity. So how people see you is really, really important to your business plan for the future.

Speaker 1 (00:47:02):

It's kind of everything. So sorry to rewind this, but I wanted to hear more of the story, but we kind of went off on a really awesome tangent. So she comes up to you at a bar and is like, have you considered songwriting? And you're like, what the fuck is that? But were you intrigued?

Speaker 2 (00:47:21):

Oh, absolutely. I was just like, cool, that'll be great. And I was still living in San Diego at the time and she was living in la, so she said, come on up, you can sleep on my couch. We'll start. She obviously saw something in me that she could sign.

Speaker 1 (00:47:37):

She must have liked your originals or something.

Speaker 2 (00:47:40):

Yeah, I mean, I think that was it. I think there's potential when you see somebody with a talent and you at a stage where you can start signing people, I think it was like, okay, cool. I'm going to sign her as a songwriter to me. And that's basically exactly how it went down. And for the next two years, she literally taught me everything I know from how to use logic, how to start crafting melodies. So it really was incredible. It's invaluable education that I'm very grateful to Jen. I mean, we've kind of gone our separate ways and we are not close anymore, but what she's doing is just, she's still slaying out there and she's on the pop side of stuff, and I'm kind of on the rock and metal side, but what I was taught in terms of being, how to conduct a studio session, how to be with the artist, how to approach writing a song, how to approach instrumentation, every single one of these things is something that I was taught by her. And then obviously being in the room with massive producers and artists for the past eight years has been an education in itself. But I mean, it all started there insane.

Speaker 1 (00:49:02):

Really. There's nothing that can replace having the right mentor

Speaker 2 (00:49:06):

In

Speaker 1 (00:49:06):

My opinion.

Speaker 2 (00:49:07):

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (00:49:08):

So did you immediately just move to her couch two days later?

Speaker 2 (00:49:14):

Yeah, I didn't have anything going on. I was just couch surfing in San Diego, and I'm sort of that person I still am is that I don't really go into anything with a plan. I'm much better flying by the seat of my pants. I'm a really good under pressure person when I have to plan something out. I dunno, that's just my personality type I guess. So I'm fairly free-spirited and I was like, cool, if you'll have me, let's go. Fuck yeah. So it really did go down like that and just, she opened the doors up for me to get my first publishing deal. I signed a deal with Zach Katz and JR Rotem and got some cash in my pocket and was able to rarely start focusing on the production and songwriting side. So going from being an artist into a hundred percent behind the scenes, and I so much prefer it that way.

Speaker 1 (00:50:18):

Is it one of those things where you didn't even know that the position existed, but then as soon as you got started it was, oh yeah, this is it.

Speaker 2 (00:50:28):

It's just such a cool thing because you're able to impart your thoughts and your stamp on something, but still be completely transparent in it. It's the most incredible experience and the most intimate experience just walking to a room with a stranger and leaving with somebody that you feel more intimate and passionate about than a lover. It's the craziest thing, and it really is. It's this very emotional connection that you have with these artists. When you get into a room and you start digging into every little piece of the songwriting, every little piece of the production, sonically, all the atmospheric textual stuff, it really is being inside of them and them inside of you. It's this, it's a mindfuck. It's awesome. So

Speaker 1 (00:51:23):

On that topic, when you're meeting an artist for the first time that you're going to write with, how do you break the ice? Yeah, it is, writing is a very personal thing. I mean, it really, really is. I mean, I realize that sometimes producers will change things in the studio, and there's a very technical side to writing,

Speaker 2 (00:51:52):

But

Speaker 1 (00:51:52):

Really when it comes down to it, the spark for a song, if you're doing it right, it comes from a real place and well, how do you break that ice with a stranger?

Speaker 2 (00:52:05):

I haven't been in any, I was trying to approach this from a way of how not to approach it, but I haven't actually ever been in a session where it was just like, oh my God. I'm like, I basically want to know my arm off to get out of here.

Speaker 1 (00:52:19):

That's never happened.

Speaker 2 (00:52:21):

No. Wow, I, I'm jealous. I haven't had that experience yet. Touch wood, I think just being your authentic self. I think coming from a background of playing in a band, I definitely am a girl that's one of the boys. So I have a great rapport with men. Guys just see me as their best bud. There's not this weird like, oh, it's a girl in a room, or it's a guy in a room. There's this weird sexual tension. It's just, it works really well. And I think that comes from being in a band and kind of living on the road and having that little extra bit of substance or thickness, whatever it is. I think it's really important to allow the artist to speak. A lot of the time I've been in sessions where I'm the producer and I watch how other songwriters work, and I love working with other songwriters because I find that it's a lot for me to be engineering, producing, and writing a session. It really is kind of three different parts, like pulling away from each other. So I love to work with other songwriters and I can see the moment that artists start getting uncomfortable kind of people just seeming really forced. It's about being super relaxed.

Speaker 1 (00:53:46):

I am going to key in on something that you just said, that you notice when it is that artists start to get uncomfortable. And I've always said that to be able to do this job, you need to have a really high emotional intelligence. You need to be able to read people maybe better than they can read themselves, because there's cues that people give off. I've just noticed that I can tell when someone's about to get uncomfortable. I can tell when before it even happens. Before I think they even know. In some cases, I've been able to know, alright, let's not head this way that's going to make them uncomfortable. Or I've seen other people do it where it's like, oh man, stop. Stop what you're doing right now. You can just, I don't know, you can just feel it on somebody. It's hard to describe, but it's a real thing.

Speaker 2 (00:54:48):

Yeah, what you just said, reading the room is so important. I really do think that is a skillset that is probably one of your most valuable assets as a producer and songwriter, sometimes you have to choose when to pull out which gun. Sometimes I'll go into a room and I'll see that, okay, cool. I basically need to have a full produced out song and top line ready. This session is just not going anywhere unless I pull out the big guns. Other times you arrive with an idea and that the artist will just lose their mind, just like, I can't even believe you're forcing this on me. It's really about reading the room, reading the artist. I love that you said emotional intelligence, because that's one of my favorite joint word meanings. Just being able to really, really read people to understand, to look at their body language, their eyes, their, especially as artists, artists, complex beings. So being able to sit in a room and be alongside that is really amazing.

Speaker 1 (00:55:57):

I completely agree. And I do think of the whole emotional intelligence thing, very much like a different type of intelligence because really you're getting signals from people. You're getting their body language, you're getting fluctuations in the tone of their voice and the pitch, the tempo that they're talking at everything, all these signals that they're giving you, which if you had to take the time to analyze each one individually, you might not be able to react fast enough to prevent someone from going down a bad path or getting uncomfortable or whatever. But if you can just somehow interpret all of them fast and set the vibe properly, not in reaction, but in accordance with the vibe that you're getting, that's how you win, I think.

Speaker 2 (00:56:53):

And that concludes our advice from Dr. Lowe.

Speaker 1 (00:56:56):

Cool. Talk to

Speaker 2 (00:56:58):

Mean, you're so right. It really is. Everything that you said is just spot on.

Speaker 1 (00:57:03):

So you're getting into these sessions with her. She's teaching you all these incredible things. You're suddenly in the room with major producers and major artists. At first, was it kind of like just don't say anything, just observe. At what point did you start to put forth your own ideas or was it right away?

Speaker 2 (00:57:26):

I mean, I think I was a little bit of a cocky shit when I first started with this. So I learned fast just that I didn't leave a good taste in people's mouths in the beginning. Just kind of jumping in and being like, oh, just

Speaker 1 (00:57:40):

Came on too strong.

Speaker 2 (00:57:41):

Yeah, totally came on way too strong. And that all comes back to emotional intelligence, but just kind of sitting back and just watching Jan, how she handled the room and what it really is just about learning. And I think sometimes just shutting up and listening is the best person that you can be in the room. Obviously now when I'm taking sessions by myself, obviously I need to be speaking, but I think when you are in the room with people that have more to offer than you do, I think the most valuable you can be is just to kind of keep quiet and listen and absorb what is going on in that room. And that's exactly how I got through to where I am now, is just by listening, absorbing, just watching over the shoulder. Why is Alex the kid doing that? Oh, cool. That's a cool, I wonder why he's putting that on the kick drum, asking the engineer Little simple questions, just kind of being interested when the time is right, obviously to ask questions.

Speaker 1 (00:58:54):

Hey everybody, if you're enjoying this podcast, then you should know that it's brought to you by URM Academy, URM Academy's mission is to create the next generation of audio professionals by giving them the inspiration and information to hone their craft and build a career doing what they love. You've probably heard me talk about Nail the Mix before, and if you're a member, you already know how amazing it is. The beginning of the month, nail the mix members, get the raw multi-tracks to a new song by artists like Lama, God Angels and Airwaves. Knock loose OPEC shuga, bring me the Horizon. Gaira asking Alexandria Machine Head and Papa Roach among many, many others over 60 at this point. Then at the end of the month, the producer who mixed it comes on and does a live streaming walkthrough of exactly how they mix the song on the album and takes your questions live on air.

(00:59:46):

And these are guys like TLA, Will Putney, Jenz Boren, Dan Lancaster, to I Matson, Andrew Wade, and many, many more. You'll also get Access Tom Lab, which is our collection of dozens of bite-sized mixing tutorials that cover all the basics as well as Portfolio Builder, which is a library of pro quality multi-tracks cleared for use in your portfolio. So your career will never again be held back by the quality of your source material. And for those of you who really want to step up their game, we have another membership tier called URM Enhance, which includes everything I already told you about, and access to our massive library of fast tracks, which are deep, super detailed courses on intermediate and advanced topics against staging, mastering, low end and so forth. It's over 500 hours of content. And man, let me tell you, this stuff is just insanely detailed.

(01:00:40):

Enhanced members also get access to one-on-ones, which are basically office hour sessions with us and Mix Rescue, which is where we open up one of your mixes and fix it up and talk you through exactly what we're doing at every step. So if any of that sounds interesting to you, if you're ready to level up your mixing skills in your audio career, head over to URM Academy to find out more. Can we talk about rubbing people the wrong way? I think that's interesting that you said that, and I think it's interesting that you noticed that that's that emotional intelligence I was talking about. A lot of people in this field lack, and I think that you need to be self-aware because you have to understand the effect you're having on other people, and you need to try to judge your own level somewhat accurately. I know you can never totally understand your own level. It's impossible, I think because it's too close. But you need to be able to know what level you're playing at. You need to be able to know of something you're doing is total shit or awesome, but you really, most importantly, need to be able to know what effect you're having on people.

(01:01:56):

And so I have noticed that so many people just do not get it. And I know I've met a lot of people who have really fucked up by being too positive, coming on too strong, just tiring people the fuck out. It's too much. But then there's some people who are intense, but they have figured out how to make it work. You're an intense person for sure, but you definitely have not weirded me out at all and just wait. You figured out how to make it just wait. Yeah, today's still young, but no, but you figured out how to make it work for you, and I want to hear a little more about that.

Speaker 2 (01:02:41):

I think it's really important when you take on the role as producer, songwriter, engineer, that you step out of your artist role. There cannot be two artists in the room. And I think that that is the number one thing that I see makes artists really uncomfortable is when they are not the center of attention. It's their session. The songwriters trying to be so much more extra than the artist and it really irks people

Speaker 1 (01:03:12):

And as it should, it's their session.

Speaker 2 (01:03:15):

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that if you come from a place of being an artist, which definitely helps you be a producer, engineer, songwriter, but you need to be able to take that hat off and step back and let this other person, even though you probably are 99.9% steering that ship and you are making all the magic happen, it's important for the artist to feel like they are making the magic happen. I think a lot of artists that I'm in the room with, it's really uncomfortable to be thrown in with a stranger. So your job is to make them feel as comfortable and seem as great as possible, and that's going to help you just really curate this incredible session and emotional bond with this artist. So stepping out of the artist role important, important,

Speaker 1 (01:04:12):

But how did you realize that whoa, people are reacting to me in a way that I don't want, I need to change that.

Speaker 2 (01:04:21):

I mean, I can't really put my finger on the exact emotion or however I fault. It was just when people are into you and people are just not into you. And sometimes just stepping back a little bit. For sure. I have a very big personality, so my job is to figure out when that personality needs to be there, when I need to back her up a little bit. And you can absolutely feel people are either going to be into you when they're seeking your approval, when they're seeking your attention, or they're just like, oh my fuck, can this girl get out the room already? So to be honest, I haven't actually had that experience, but there's, there's definitely times where you can feel that your opinions are more appreciated than others

Speaker 1 (01:05:12):

And you're paying attention to that.

Speaker 2 (01:05:13):

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, when we were working on one of the Gray Days songs with Head and Jason from Breaking Benjamin, I was just in the room, shut up, and I'm just like, whatever you guys want to do. And head was like, but what do you think Esjay? Just like, I'm just sitting there silent because I'm just like, holy shit, I'm producing a song and it's playing on it. So it is so insane. And he just was coming to me just going, Hey, what do you think of this? And I'm just like, fuck, I don't know you from corn. Just whatever you want to do, put it on it. It's going to be great. So it is just knowing when to pick and choose your battles of when your opinion is wanted and when it's not, especially with somebody that's such a vet in the industry, even working with Matt, the drummer from Guns and Roses and Revolver, and it's so great to just sit back and let him put a stamp on and they're like, Hey, what do you think of that? Great. Try this. If they ask for your opinion at the end of the day when you're working with artists that are just so much more than you are, I think again, it's important to sit back, absorb, wait for the right moments, let them come to you rather than you forcing your new ideas onto them.

Speaker 1 (01:06:36):

Just the fact that they're in the room with you already says a lot. It says that they're open to you. The mission from that point then becomes not to fuck that up and not to overdo it. I totally agree. No reason to. And something that a friend of mine said that the best producers know when to get the fuck out of the way.

Speaker 2 (01:07:01):

Yep, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:07:02):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:07:03):

That's such an incredibly important part of your profession. Exactly. Being transparent. I believe that that is a producer's most important job, not putting your stamp all over. Obviously people sound like when you hear something played by somebody or mixed by somebody or produced by somebody, you're like, oh yeah, I can hear that to them. People have a certain sound, but it's important that you allow when you're working with a band that you really allow the band's sonic value and their sound and them to stamp it on themselves and you just to kind of be the vessel. I'm going to totally take a little U-turn where I really think that it's so cool that I've been given the opportunity kind of as a woman in this industry, kind of being evolved in the metal and rock scene and having some of the biggest guys in the game enjoying what I'm bringing from a technical point of view, from a production point of view, from an emotional point of view to the record. Because definitely there's a difference when it's a sausage fest in a room as to you add one girl, it's going to change the entire dynamic of the room.

Speaker 1 (01:08:21):

Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:08:22):

And there is something cool about that, just that little sprinkle of something. And I think I would love to see more girls up in this, and it is a super daunting thing to be in a room of guys that are in the metal scene. It's a definite vibe. And just being able to kind of float and navigate that room without making it weird, without causing any drama in the room, just being a human in the room, making music together. It's a really cool thing. And it's great to see. I mean, right now I feel like I don't know too many other girls in the rocking music scene and I would love to see more of them. Where are you hiding? Come on out.

Speaker 1 (01:09:11):

Yeah, if that's you, I'm talking to the listeners right now and you're hiding and you're working on awesome rock and metal stuff, hit me up. I would love to have you on the podcast. You don't need to hide. I do think they're out there. What I've noticed is just through the URM community, a lot of them are afraid to get too much attention on them because of the negative experiences that they've had, which are real. And I completely understand. I get it.

Speaker 2 (01:09:45):

And thank you for making this a safe platform because I really do feel like my opinion counts, and it's not because I have a vagina. It's just, oh, cool, it's just another person. I feel like this is a really safe platform. I don't feel like there's any sex this weirdness, so I don't feel bullied. So thank you for creating this space.

Speaker 1 (01:10:08):

Happy to do it. See, I think we talked about this on the phone, but for me, I didn't have to really do any mental gymnastics to create it. I grew up in a world where women were just as badass as the men just in the orchestral world. There's so many phenomenal female musicians and females in power positions that it just, that's what I grew up around. That's what I know. And so actually the metal world, that guy dominated is different. I'm used to the metal world. I've been in it for a while, but that's not what was normal to me. And this makes more sense to me. I didn't really have to develop any sort of new understandings of things in order to make it the way it is. And so I think that's probably why it actually is a chill platform in that regard. I wish that more people would just chill the fuck out and treat the ladies in music like coworkers.

Speaker 2 (01:11:22):

I don't need people to be like, oh, well, let's give her a shot because it's a girl. If I can say this without sounding like a complete dick, it's like I am great at what I do. To be honest. I rock guitar harder than most dudes I know. I am way faster and more efficient as an engineer and producer than most dudes I know. And so it's got nothing to do with, oh, well, we should give girls a chance. If you are badass and proficient and a pro at what you do, it's got absolutely nothing to do with you being a man or a woman. Just be great at what you do and then come in owning it. Don't be cocky and just make everyone feel weird about it. But it's just sitting down and just freaking dominating and people just going like, oh, holy shit. Hey, what about this rift? And the guys just go, oh fuck. Okay, cool. Let's try it. So it's just knowing your audience, knowing if metal's your thing, make sure you got your chops down. That's the vibe.

Speaker 1 (01:12:25):

I will say this, I do think that at the end of the day in music, all bullshit aside, people do bow down to superior skill. So when someone comes in and dominates, doesn't matter who they are, that person tends to win.

Speaker 2 (01:12:42):

Totally.

Speaker 1 (01:12:42):

So I agree with you. If you want to get far in this world, the more of a badass you are, the easier it's going to be. I do think that if nobody feels like they're making any special considerations, that definitely will work in your favor the most. If

Speaker 2 (01:13:00):

Someone's

Speaker 1 (01:13:01):

Just working with you, they think you're great.

Speaker 2 (01:13:03):

One of my pet peeves is, and I saw you post something on it the other day, and I had such a great giggle because nine times out of 10, I'm working in these massive studios that cost $1,800 or something for X amount of hours. And you said it takes two hours to figure out how to make the arks cable work.

Speaker 1 (01:13:25):

Oh, finna said that.

Speaker 2 (01:13:26):

Oh, was it finna that said that, man, you posted it and I just died because it is. There's nothing worse than walking into a session and nobody can get shit started. It's like you walk into your bedroom just with your, whatever you using, your little interface, your little baby or whatever you got going on, boom, boom, you're in. Let's go. Let's start rocking. And it's like, oh, whoa, we got to just make sure that this mic pre is, and this is, and I'm just like, oh my God, you're killing creative time now, man. That's just pet peeve. Be efficient, be streamlined. Walk into a session with, if you work on a template, have your template done. Nine times out of 10, I don't work on a template just because I'm crazy like that, and I like to be spontaneous and have things change. I feel like if I'm working on a template, my chains are always the same and I like to test myself, and I feel it's kind of cool to switch things up. If you're nervous, go in with the template. When I did the Breaking Benjamin corn session for the Gray Day stuff, I went in with a templo because I was shitting myself. So figure out what's good for you and be efficient, have everything dialed in ready to go. There's nothing worse than it. It's a mood killer vibe killer. It's like, I can't get anything working. Everyone's feeling weirded out.

Speaker 1 (01:14:55):

So the reason I reposted that was because I've had that experience in big studios. I've had that experience where you're paying all this money and half the channels on the board don't work, and they don't know which channels work and which don't. It's a fucking disaster and they're charging you anyways. I remember this one, I was assistant engineering on a job for a cowboy ep. We went to this really nice studio with an SSL, and the SSL just wasn't working that first day. They couldn't figure out how to fix it. Had to get some expert guy to show up the next day and rewire a bunch of shit. It was fucked up. They charged us anyways for that day. We lost an entire day

(01:15:48):

Due to their SSL not working, and we still got charged. And I've been in that scenario so many times. I really do think the thing that blows me away is when someone is on top of their shit and somehow it just has it all together to where work gets done easily and it doesn't feel cumbersome. You know how there's certain projects where, or certain people, it just feels like everything is just so fucking painstaking. It's just painful to just get a rift done. And then with other people it's light. There's no effort. It just works. That to me, when I'm around people like that, regardless of what capacity, those are the kinds of people I want to work with more often. I remember that. I note that always, always have, I guess one of the most impressive things.

Speaker 2 (01:16:45):

I feel like we'd make some good music together,

Speaker 1 (01:16:47):

Probably

Speaker 2 (01:16:48):

Quick and good.

Speaker 1 (01:16:50):

I'd have to get good at making music again, though. It's been a while.

Speaker 2 (01:16:53):

You're completely out of the game.

Speaker 1 (01:16:55):

Here's the thing, I am not good at doing multiple things because I get super obsessive with the thing I'm doing. I go all in and have no hobbies, and it's the only fucking thing I do. I've always been that way. I'm an extremist and it's caused me problems in my life, but it also has brought me success. My mom used to tell me when I was a little kid that I'm an extremist and I should chill out a little bit, but it's just the way I'm wired. So when I decided that I was doing URM in order for me to be able to really do it, not just to have the time to do it as far as scheduling goes, but mentally in my head, the only way that I could actually do it would be to quit everything else. Because production, when I'm working on a record or my own records or pursuing some sort of a musical ambition, then that becomes the only thing I think about when I'm working on a record that is my entire life. I'm not good at working on a record and then going and doing something else and then coming back to the record. My brain doesn't work very well that way. I have to do the thing I'm doing. So yeah, so when I started URM in order to make it what it is now and what it will still become in the future, I had to stop doing everything else. So yeah, I'm out of the game.

Speaker 2 (01:18:29):

And your room looks sick, by the way. Thank you. I just checked out that picture. I'm highly jealous. I need to figure out something with my little cave here at my house.

Speaker 1 (01:18:41):

I'm not out of the game creatively, I'm still

Speaker 2 (01:18:43):

No, totally,

Speaker 1 (01:18:44):

Totally. That's the thing is my creativity is still in full swing. The only thing is I just don't really use it for making music anymore. That doesn't mean it won't happen again. Like I said, I get obsessed with shit. It's a blessing and a curse. But yeah, this room's coming along. So one thing that I think will be interesting for listeners to know is that this entire time I've been doing URM and this podcast, I haven't had my own podcast studio or office or anything. All of URM has happened from bedrooms, living rooms, kitchens, and other people's studios. When we go do nail the mix this entire time, I haven't had my own spot. And so right now I just got into a position to have my own spot, my own studio, and I'm going all out making it awesome. I feel like I've earned it. I didn't feel right asking the company to build me a room at the beginning, which is kind of weird, but I just didn't feel right. But at this point it's kind of like I'm okay with it.

Speaker 2 (01:19:57):

Yeah, it's

Speaker 1 (01:19:57):

Freaking

Speaker 2 (01:19:58):

Badass. You deserve that room. It's awesome.

Speaker 1 (01:20:01):

I wish I had done it earlier.

Speaker 2 (01:20:04):

And going back to our finna conversation, it's like some of the greatest records that I'm hearing are coming out people's bedrooms. It really is like, sure, it's hard to track drums in a bedroom.

Speaker 1 (01:20:17):

Yeah, there's some challenges there.

Speaker 2 (01:20:18):

People are making it work. And we just did the new Alien and Farm ep. We literally did everything in the box, which is not ideal and a lot of people would criticize it, but I think it sounds pretty fucking massive. And I brought my partner over from France, Lucas DeAngelo, who's the guitar player in betraying the Martyrs. And him and I have been working together for the past two years or so. And so I bring him in for a couple of projects whenever I just need to be focused on production and then he can just take over all the engineering. And so we literally did that record on a zero budget and just with a lot of love in the drummer's house. So I'm excited for everyone to hear it. I think it sounds badass, regardless of not having budget or anything, it's like you do not need fancy gear anymore. You need great ears and great instinct to make a great record.

Speaker 1 (01:21:18):

Absolutely. And that's you saying it, having worked in tons of great rooms.

Speaker 2 (01:21:24):

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, listen, do I love working at NRG? Dude, that studio is off the hook. The engineer that worked on us worked with us on the Gray Days record. Carl Hoffman, he's probably one of the most insane engineers I've ever worked with. Super efficient, super fast, just brilliant at what he does. But that's not every day do we have these opportunities to be working with these incredible people. If I had to put together a team that I worked with every day that I just had in my pocket, that would be awesome. But that's not reality. And in order to keep flowing and to keep creating and doing great things, what you have right in front of you on your laptop is good enough with great instinct and great ears because it really is. I was watching the Cane Choco in the mix, I think on one of the Papa Roach stuff, and he's just like, I don't know exactly what this does, but it sounds great.

(01:22:23):

And I'm like, that's my boy. That's kind of my instinct to things. It's like, I'll go with some stuff that I realize that boosting this does this, but sometimes it's just you throw something on and you're like, I don't know exactly what it does, but it sounds fucking phenomenal. And you just got to go with those instinctual gut feelings where you're like, that just changes my entire perception of the song. And again, that's just your opinion and somebody else is going to hate it, and it really doesn't matter. If you think it's great and the artist thinks it's great, go with that.

Speaker 1 (01:22:57):

Do you consider yourself more of a technical engineer or more of a field-based engineer?

Speaker 2 (01:23:04):

I'm definitely a field-based engineer. I'm filled with almost everything that I do. I would rather there be mistakes all over a record and then we figure out how to do it because the feel was there and it was so great. I generally don't compress an EQ too much on anything going in just because I feel like if I have more control over it in post, that's just the way I like to work. I know it's not

(01:23:35):

Ideal, but sometimes when I'm writing the song engineering, the song, producing the song, sometimes I make mistakes. I'm doing so much that I've overlooked something and it's just easier for me working by myself to do everything afterwards. So I mean, what I call myself an engineer, would I feel comfortable going into NRG and running that rig? Absolutely not. I would need probably a good week just to familiarize myself with everything, understand the signal flow. And I think when you working in the box so often, we get so lucky with how easy everything is to set up that when it actually comes to the big guys that are patching everything in as simple as it is, there's a lot that goes into the thought and you can definitely, definitely hear the difference. I don't have the luxury to be able to do that when wearing three hats at the same time and trying to be efficient and not losing the magic. It's just kind of, let's get something up and going and make sure nothing's peaking. We good to go, add a little subtle compression and let's rock.

Speaker 1 (01:24:54):

Yeah, absolutely. And I really don't think there's anything wrong with doing stuff totally in the box. I mean, so many awesome people do that now. And we've had several comparison sessions now. I don't know if you saw the Carnival Nail the Mix. We went to Australia for that with Forrester, ve, and he did the whole mix on an SSL.

Speaker 2 (01:25:20):

Wow.

Speaker 1 (01:25:21):

But he finished early and we were in this really, really sick studio in Brisbane and we were like, why don't we see if we can substitute some of these pieces of gear with the plugin versions and get it to sound identical? So we spent about two hours, it's

Speaker 2 (01:25:38):

Like

Speaker 1 (01:25:38):

The last two hours of that nail the mix just dialing the 1176 s against the uas.

Speaker 2 (01:25:46):

And

Speaker 1 (01:25:46):

What we found was that you can't match the settings and expect them to sound the same. So if you forget about that part, but just use your ear to try to match them, you can get them sounding identical. It really doesn't matter. So I think there's no reason for anybody to feel like they're limited in any way, shape or form because they don't have NRG. So how did you transition from working under somebody in Pop to little by little moving up the rock ladder?

Speaker 2 (01:26:19):

I mean, I come from a metal and rock background, so my favorite bands growing up were, I mean, I was listening to Christian Death Metal, like Mortification. Have you ever

Speaker 1 (01:26:31):

Mortification? Wow.

Speaker 2 (01:26:32):

Yeah. Do you remember that band?

Speaker 1 (01:26:34):

Yes.

Speaker 2 (01:26:34):

I mean, that's what I was growing up on because I wasn't allowed to listen to anything secular. And secular is considered non-Christian music. So I was seeking out the heaviest stuff that I could find in the Christian bookstore. So finding mortification and then Pillar kind of bands like that Skillet who all of those guys were just kind of who I grew up on. And then obviously

Speaker 1 (01:27:06):

I didn't think Mortification and Skillet in the same sentence as kind of funny.

Speaker 2 (01:27:11):

Have you heard the first skillet record? It's the one with the frying pan on the front. I think it's their best record ever. It's definitely more kind of, I mean it's Nirvana Rock. I mean they've definitely changed their sound. I am not a fan of the Sound Now, but I love that record. So it was kind of rock and metal was, I was so desperate to get my hands on anything that wouldn't send me to hell. So that's where I started. And then I kind of left the church when I was around 21 and I really was a late bloomer. I didn't even know who the Smashing Pumpkins were until I was 19 years old.

Speaker 1 (01:27:55):

So you were really, really in it.

Speaker 2 (01:27:57):

Oh dude, it was so crazy. I brought home the Incubus album one day and my mom took it outside and burnt it.

Speaker 1 (01:28:04):

Oh, just because of the band name?

Speaker 2 (01:28:05):

Yeah, because it's like the male rape guard or something. I dunno. Whatever it is. I was not allowed to listen to anything. So I really had a lot to catch up on. And although that's where I got all my grounding was in the church, because churches seem to pump so much money into audio.

Speaker 1 (01:28:29):

They sure

Speaker 2 (01:28:29):

Do. Yeah. And that's where I learned everything was from this guy who owned a studio that I did an internship at called North Wind Recording in Hillcrest Durban in South Africa. And he did all the live sound and it was always like the best rock concert you ever went to every Sunday. So I really do attribute that even though there were lots of lots and lots of cons that really got me started in sound. And obviously stealing Love Jones, the band I played in South Africa was kind of a super soft rock, kind of avil levine sounding kind of thing. But there was a niche for that at that time, and I guess that's just why it exploded and did so well, didn't do well in the States. And so I fell into the pop music industry because it was where the money was that I thought, and that was kind of it. And now that I feel that my soul has been completely destroyed by the pop music industry, which it just has, man, I really don't like it. I don't enjoy, I mean, sure there's songs that I love. I just don't like the process. I don't, it's just not for me. I've kind of not outgrown it. I love being a part of,

Speaker 1 (01:29:55):

I mean, if it's not for you, it's not for you.

Speaker 2 (01:29:57):

Yeah, totally. And I've learned so much from it and I'm so grateful. But it's like I grew up playing in bands with boys from, I had my first band when I was 12 years old playing Battle of the Bands. I look back at that stuff and I cringe. But that's what I love to do. I love the community of it. I love sitting in a garage and drinking a cheap beer and writing a song. There's something about that breaking of bread, which is just so rad, which I don't feel you get in the pop music industry. Everyone's just so fucking fabulous and it's great, but I'm not that girl. It's like I'm wearing the same oversized black t-shirt with the same black pants and the same black shoes, and that's me every single day. So it's just you find your tribe and you stick with it.

Speaker 1 (01:30:51):

Yeah, that makes perfect sense. But how did you reenter your tribe? I mean, now maybe they're starting to be a little more crossover, but they're kind of two separate worlds completely.

Speaker 2 (01:31:02):

I think finding my new management team was key, and Renee Marty at a m, he's a rock dude, so he's kind of opened up the doors to all his connections and that was kind of what I was seeking out. It was just, I don't really want to do this whole top lining production thing. I want to be in a room with a band and get back to making music the way I loved it and the management company heard me. And I think making the right choices of your management when you get to that point too. Somebody that really is going to hear you and put you in the room with artists and bands that you really want to be in the room with.

Speaker 1 (01:31:45):

That's interesting that you say that because very few producer managers that I'm aware of actually do that. Most of the ones that I know are basically just the producer's pit bull that negotiates with contracts and does the dirty work. But most of the ones I know and good ones too, they don't do that part. Putting the artist in the room with the producer type end of things, which I think would be awesome. It's just rare. That's super rare.

Speaker 2 (01:32:22):

I mean, in my experience, your manager's only job is to be putting you in the room with, you would think artists, right? I mean obviously yes, negotiating deals and handling all the stuff to allow you to be creative, but really important that they hear you and that they have the relationships to open up these doors for you too. And again, I am a super relationship based person. Super feely, super emo. That's just the human that I am. So it's really important to me that I'm involved in a business capacity with people that are on my same emotional level. I don't speak business even though I have a great business mind. I know what I want. I am, I have finances sorted out, everything's compartmentalized, but I don't want to be speaking business, talk with people that I'm in a relationship with, hear me understand me, this is who I am. Open those doors for me.

Speaker 1 (01:33:29):

Interesting that you say that because you are good at business.

Speaker 2 (01:33:32):

Thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:33:33):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (01:33:33):

I mean for sure you have to be both. I really do think that gone are the days of just being an artist and being able to be a total fuckup and having somebody look after you

Speaker 1 (01:33:47):

That doesn't work.

Speaker 2 (01:33:47):

No, and it doesn't exist anymore. Everybody is. So I know we spoke earlier of saying that maybe the work ethic is different, but I feel like it's a different way. Like social media and just kids out there hustling their freaking Instagram and Snapchats and whatever else it is. It's a hustle now, and you need to be on 24 7. And this is again, talking about your brand and your business and exactly what you put out there. I mean, sure, do I look like I'm having fun and that I'm ridiculous nine times out of 10? Absolutely. It's just my personality. I'm a big dog, but also have my shit together behind the scenes. It's really important.

Speaker 1 (01:34:32):

I want to talk about that a little bit. I think it's interesting that you said that you don't want to talk business with people that you're involved with, but you're also, on the other hand, you have your shit together with business and you even have side hustles going and multiple income streams. I mean, you're doing it right. You're doing it exactly right. It's interesting to me. What I'm wondering is what's the line for you?

Speaker 2 (01:34:57):

I think maybe it's more the vocabulary of how I want to be communicated with. And maybe that came across wrong in how I said that earlier. It's just I don't want people, a tone for me is everything. And if how I like people that I'm in a partnership with or in business with to talk to me is in a kind and loving way. Even if there's something not good, that's the way I need you to talk to me because I don't handle you being business with me and I will literally shut down and we are done. So I think it's really important to, which is not a good thing for me. I should be able to handle that, but I don't.

Speaker 1 (01:35:40):

But you know that about yourself. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:35:42):

You raise a tone at me and this conversation is done. Trust me, I am emotionally shut down. I'll probably be crying in the other room. I am just a big baby. So it's just having people in your life that are, I mean, I probably have people I can count on, five hands, five hands people. I can count on one hand. It's a lot of hands. It's a lot of hands that are close to me and that I trust. And I think in creating your brand and looking after yourself emotionally, mentally, all those things, because every day as a producer, songwriter, engineer, you're basically just giving yourself away, especially as on the songwriting side of stuff. It's you are just giving, giving. So just being able to find that place and people that are again, your same tribe. I find people in rock and metal just so much more loving for some reason. It's just, it's this hard outer thing and maybe we look a little scarier to the world, but there's so much more nurturing, there's so much more kindness. It's just people are real. I find the men are nicer to women. I don't know, maybe it's just my perception, but it's my perception.

Speaker 1 (01:37:05):

I am curious on, you're talking about giving and giving and giving with writing. You got me thinking that one of the things that's the hardest to work out in a co-writing situation, this is where shit gets weird, is who's getting what? Splits are getting that figured out without ruining the vibe to where you're still making art and that's not even an issue. Is that where your manager comes in or how do you walk that line and still keep that vibe? Exactly like you said,

Speaker 2 (01:37:39):

I walk into a room with the understanding that I probably will be writing 99.9% of the song, but I'm going to leave with 50% of it. If it's just me or you and you, it's split by however many writers are on the room. For example, if it's me and a band, it's going to be a 50 50 split. If it's me and two songwriters, it's going to be a 33 and a third split. I don't believe in nickeling and dimming people. I feel like it's bad for the creative process. I think that that walking into a room, you understand that however many people are in this room, we are splitting it that way. I mean, obviously if there's seven band members, that makes no sense. It has to, if it's a band situation, it's they're considered one entity. If you're bringing in a songwriter or if a band already has a song done and they're just bringing in for some melody changes, I believe being fair and what my time is like, sure, I'll take 10% just for a little melody change.

(01:38:49):

I don't want anybody to think that I'm taking advantage and I don't want to feel taken advantage of either, especially when I'm doing all the heavy lifting. I think we actually had chatted about this on the phone the other day that the one thing that really, really bugs me about what's happened with the business model of the music industry of where it is now, is that us as songwriters and producers, we basically work for free every day. The label puts the artist in the room with you, which sure, it's percentage based, but you're not getting a sense unless that song goes on the record or it's a single. So if I'm in two sessions a day, let's just say 500 songs a year, maybe one of those songs gets picked up. And it's really frustrating because it's like, yes, do I want to be in the room with this person? Absolutely. The opportunity is awesome. I want to have this relationship with the label. But you're basically a professional gambler just having these people in the room. It may do something, it may not do something. So I think understanding at that point, yes, I deserve X amount. If for example, it's been a session where it's a hundred percent where I'm doing all the heavy lifting, and actually I don't know because I feel like you would never have written that song if that person wasn't in the room. So democratic splits always just so much easier.

Speaker 1 (01:40:23):

It's interesting what you just said about it. You're basically a gambler. You're right. I've never thought about it in those words, but that's a great way to put it. And that also justifies the percentage because if you're not getting paid to be there, unless if you're not getting paid to be there, and the only way you're getting paid is if the song gets somewhere, then there's only one fair way

Speaker 2 (01:40:50):

To

Speaker 1 (01:40:51):

Do that.

Speaker 2 (01:40:52):

Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:40:52):

You're gambling together, basically.

Speaker 2 (01:40:55):

You're basically putting your own money into somebody else's career, which I had this whole mental breakdown at the end of last year, just like, what am I doing? It's like I'm spending all this time with artists that, to be honest, I don't really believe in kind of climbing up the ladder to get to the artists that you want to get to, and you're basically just investing in other people's careers. And I was trying to think of how could we flip that around? We should be investing in ourselves, but at the same time getting these, I dunno, it was just I had a complete meltdown at the end of last year, just like this has to change.

Speaker 1 (01:41:37):

What conclusion did you come to?

Speaker 2 (01:41:39):

Well, the conclusion that I came to was that I guess I'm at a point in my career where I can do this. So now I'm just choosing which artists that I want to work with. I get approached by my management daily several times a day saying, this artist, this artist, this artist, I'll check them out. If I like them, I'll say, cool, let's go for it. Otherwise, at the beginning of your career, yes, you take every single job that you can, every single artist because this is building your repertoire, it's building your songwriting. I dunno. I guess now it's just being a little bit more picky and selective and just really investing your time into people that you believe in.

Speaker 1 (01:42:22):

Did you have to kind of train yourself to say No?

Speaker 2 (01:42:27):

Absolutely. I think when you're doing so many sessions a day and you feel like, oh, I need to be writing this song, otherwise I'm worthless, nobody's going to, how's the label going to find out about me? That person, that artist could be the one. And it's really hard. You just get into this kerfuffle of life because it's just, you end up neglecting yourself. You end up neglecting your relationships. So finding that balance is really, really important. So now just setting those boundaries in my life, to be honest, has made me more productive. It's given me more clarity. It's the artist that I really want to work with. I'm putting it onto the universe and my management's making that happen. So it's working, I guess

Speaker 1 (01:43:22):

Working with an artist from the frame of, I have to take this because what if it's the one seems like a really negative spot to choose to work with an artist from as opposed to the I'm stoked to be working with this person because I love their work. Let's do something awesome together. That's a long way away from I have to say yes,

Speaker 2 (01:43:45):

Even

Speaker 1 (01:43:45):

Though I might not really want to. I have to say yes because what if it's the game changer?

Speaker 2 (01:43:51):

I mean, the thing is there's so many people kind of on Instagram and inspirational music, whatever they call themselves, that I just see that they keep saying, take every session, take every session. Which is why we've taken every session because if you don't do it, somebody else is going to do it.

Speaker 1 (01:44:11):

Okay, so like you just said at the very beginning, you have to, for all the reasons you said, beggars can't be choosers, and the only way you're going to get good is by doing it all the time. So probably if you're at the beginning of your career, you probably suck or kind of suck or just not that good yet. Probably more than likely you have to get past that stage. Forget relationships and connections and all of that. First and foremost, you need to get good, and the only way you're going to get good is by working a lot. And so that's why I tell people at the beginning to say yes is just because they need to stop sucking. And the only way they're going to stop sucking is by working, doing as much as they can, as often as they can. But there comes a point where they need to put the brakes on. Just saying yes to everything, I think is just as unproductive as not saying yes to anything. Because by not deciding intelligently who you're spending your time with, you could be wasting a lot of time with a lot of people that are going nowhere.

Speaker 2 (01:45:29):

Yeah, I agree. And burnout is a real thing in this industry. I mean, maybe in every industry, but I mean, that was me at the end of last year. I was just burnt out going into these sessions just in my head, just fucking miserable. And then you're not giving the artist what they deserve, whether they deserve it or not. It's like you don't have your best foot forward, which doesn't look good for you. And once again, you are your own brand, your own best PR person. It's like your personality and your relationship is the reason why people come back to you. Obviously. Yes, getting your chops up so important, but just taking care of yourself too. If you have nothing creative to give, you are no good to anybody nor yourself.

Speaker 1 (01:46:18):

So I agree with you about online gurus, by the way. I kind of hate them. And I think that people should take everything, me included, everything that online or any sort of thought authority says with a grain of salt because it really disturbs me how the worship that happens for what some people say online, whether it's a producer that they love or it happens to too, where someone will take things. I say way too seriously and way too literally and way too exact. And I'm speaking from my perspective always that might not be applicable for somebody else's life. And I have fucked up a lot in my life. So I definitely have made my share of mistakes, and I shouldn't be listened to a deity in my opinion, and it fucking disturbs me. It disturbs me. It makes me really uncomfortable when people do that because I don't think that it helps them at all. I think that the way that you should take online advice or any sort of advice is with a grain of salt and as it applies to your own situation.

Speaker 2 (01:47:46):

And we are just bantering here, so don't listen to anything that we just said over this past couple of hours.

Speaker 1 (01:47:52):

Ignore it completely.

Speaker 2 (01:47:54):

Exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:47:55):

No, but it is just, I know what you mean. Lots of people online say yes to everything. So a lot of people are just saying yes to everything because that's what they see online. I really do encourage people that anything that you're doing that somebody else advised, stop for a second and ask yourself if that advice really makes sense for you at that point in time. Because for instance, I've seen some millionaire producers be like, never do anything for free. I never do anything for free. These dudes that have 17 platinum records and five Grammys and a $10 million house, and they're like, I never do anything for free. It's like, well, no shit. You don't do anything for free.

Speaker 2 (01:48:45):

You're like our financial situation. Slightly different, buddy.

Speaker 1 (01:48:49):

Plus, I bet you did do some things for free 30 years ago.

Speaker 2 (01:48:54):

Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:48:55):

At the beginning. That's the thing is when you hear people talking from a successful people talking, you have to remember that they might not necessarily remember what it was like to struggle. They might not have an accurate memory of what they went through, and they may have forgotten some of the steps. They may just be talking about how they feel about life. Now, if you're not at the same level that they're at, then might not want to take everything they say as gospel.

Speaker 2 (01:49:28):

And I mean, a lot of people say to me, oh, but it's like I don't have the finances to be able to learn how to engineer or learn how to produce, or you got really lucky being in the room. And I'm like, yes, I did. But everything that I've learned, to be honest, what I've learned online tech wise, it's YouTube, URM Academy. You can go down the rabbit hole and learn how to do absolutely everything without spending a cent. And I think that's invaluable information because there's no limit to what we can do and what we can learn. And no money has to be spent unless you want to in learning how to be a master of your craft.

Speaker 1 (01:50:17):

We put out the majority of our information for free, but the stuff that we do charge for, we try to keep pretty reasonable so that no one can say, I mean, summit tickets are expensive, but in general, what now the mix is 20 bucks a month. If someone can't afford that, if they actually can afford it, maybe they're not in a position to be worrying about recording because they've got some serious financial problems that they need to deal with. And maybe now's not the time to. If $20 a month is not within range, then maybe there's some other things you need to prioritize, like no money whatsoever if you want something. But the goal was to make it to where people don't have that excuse. If they want to learn, there it is. It's fucking cheap as shit. Or free. And it's not like an $80,000 commitment, like full sail or something.

Speaker 2 (01:51:14):

Yeah, no, it's incredible. And I have absolutely no musical education at all. I've never studied music, never studied engineering, never studied production, never studied songwriting. I have a degree in nothing. And it's just, I feel like I have a degree in life, which is pretty rad. But it really is testament to being a go-getter and that you don't have to have any of, unless that's something that the opportunity you afforded and you want to, I wasn't in that position. And everything that I've learned has been a hundred percent online based and generally for free. And then obviously being in the room with producers and engineers and just kind of having a hawk eye watching everything that's going on. I think that's great. World is changing. People are learning things differently now. Do I think education is important? Absolutely. I think there's different ways of learning.

(01:52:25):

Some people need to see things. Some people need to hear things. Some people need to be shown things. I'm definitely a visual person, so seeing stuff, watching nail the mixes, I don't really want to read anything. I'm not a reader. I want to be watching. I want to see why doing that. That's just the way that I like to learn. So figuring out what kind of person you are and how you learn. And I think also being a realist about, you might be desperate to be an engineer or a producer, and there is something about having that it factor. It's like you're born with a vibe. You either have great instant, great ears is something you can be taught, but it's better if you have that instinct.

Speaker 1 (01:53:15):

Yeah, that thing like charisma or talent, those things, those, you can't really train charisma or talent. It is what it is. But the thing is, those are just bonus points. I know people that are not very talented who have done great in music through hard work, and I know lots of people with lots of talent who got nowhere because they fucked around.

(01:53:41):

So two of the most talented people I ever met were my roommates at Berkeley. They were complete fuckups drug addict, and they were so much better than me at music. I don't mean to technically, I mean talent wise, they just had so much more talent than me. Technically we were similar, but their brains were just superior to mine. They were so fucking talented, but they were such fuck up that these guys could have definitely done whatever they wanted musically. They were so fucking good. And in any genre it didn't matter. They were that good. But one just went back to his home in Missouri and lost his mind. The other one just disappeared. I've seen that happen way too many times where someone has talent and it still goes nowhere.

Speaker 2 (01:54:41):

It's kind of the artist curse, huh?

Speaker 1 (01:54:44):

It is. But the thing is, the artists I know who go places combine the two. So they have talent and they have work ethic. Has anybody ever not wanted to work with you because you didn't go to a formal school?

Speaker 2 (01:54:59):

Nope.

Speaker 1 (01:54:59):

I didn't think so.

Speaker 2 (01:55:00):

It's never even come up.

Speaker 1 (01:55:01):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (01:55:01):

Just like I said, just know your shit. It's kind of Sure. Could I play you some crazy scale? Absolutely not. But can I figure it out? Yes. Can I sight read? No, but can I figure it out? Yes. So it's like when you're getting into the room with somebody, nine times, actually 10 times out of 10, nobody's putting a chart in front of you and going like, play this. That's never happened to me ever in 20 years of being in the industry, maybe one time at church, but that's ridiculous. And ages ago, I really do think that people are not judging you on your kind of music theory abilities. Nobody's having these, not in the rooms that I'm with, nine times out of 10, sure, it can be some cool nerdy guitar talk or whatever about this scale, which is rad, but it's not a thing like, oh, you don't have a music degree. Oh, we can never work together. It's not like that. It's all about the vibe and the vibe you're creating in the room and the intuition. And again, the emotional intelligence for the music and understanding the room. That's all the stuff that counts. At the end of the day when somebody puts that record on, most people are not charting it out. They're listening to it and they're having this human connection. And that's what making a record is about, is this human connection and putting it onto a physical platform.

Speaker 1 (01:56:39):

So to people that are looking to embark on a career in a production or songwriting, how would you suggest that they get started if they're starting from zero?

Speaker 2 (01:56:54):

I think it's important to start writing songs yourself. I feel like a lot of people, strangely enough that are songwriters, don't play any instruments. And I would highly, highly encourage you as a songwriter. It always is completely bizarre to me where somebody will walk into a room and just have a melody sung out into their phone. There's no chords behind it. There don't play an

Speaker 1 (01:57:23):

Instrument That weirds me out too.

Speaker 2 (01:57:24):

So weird. Have you had that experience?

Speaker 1 (01:57:27):

I've worked with people like that before. It makes no sense to me whatsoever. I don't understand how that's writing, but it is. But that's not how my brain

Speaker 2 (01:57:37):

Works. Yeah, I mean, my brain doesn't work like that either. And sure, sometimes at three in the morning I'll wake up and I'll have a melody in my head and I'll run to the bathroom and sing it into my phone. But then the next day I'll come and I'll map it out and then have an idea to present with maybe a whole kind of bass, drums, guitar thing, or maybe even just a piano underneath it, just to kind of make the idea fleshed out a little bit more for people to understand. So I would highly encourage, as a songwriter, if songwriting is what you want to do, learn basic piano skills. Just be able to cord out very simple triads or whatever it is, just so that you can articulate your idea a little bit better. And then I think there's nothing wrong with taking a song that is a hit record and putting it into your logical pro tools and mapping out exactly how many bars in a verse, what's happening in this pre, what's happening in the chorus, what's in the post?

(01:58:42):

Is there a middle eight in this song? What is this melody doing? And really just deconstructing the song. And I feel like that is how totally, even now when I approach, if I go into a session with a metal band that maybe I'm unfamiliar with, I will start studying the songs and seeing how there's absolutely a structure for every genre. There's a pop structure, there's a rock structure, there's a metal structure. Sure, metal gets a little bit more creative. I think that is such a great idea for you to use as a template just to see kind of how chords are progressing or how vocal melodies are changing how many bars for X, Y, or Z. It really is a full proof structure, I guess. And like I said, I still do it now. I'll go to the top song on the chart and kind of listen to it, and sure, I have my own opinion of how I would've done things better, but I don't have a song on the top 10 charts, so they have to be doing something right.

Speaker 1 (01:59:53):

I totally agree with what you're saying. Analyzing music. I think I must have analyzed over 200 songs before I turned 20, just in depth before having a DAW. Just like not just songs, orchestral music, just soundtracks, just writing down everything that's happening, how it's working emotionally, how it's working thematically, how it's working harmony wise, structurally, everything. Just analyze the fuck out of it. Really, really understand it. Doing that enough I think was one of the most people ask me about what's some of the most powerful stuff you've learned that has made the most difference? That's probably up there Among the top five things I've done that have given me the most return on investment is the way that that helps your musical mind. There's nothing quite like it.

Speaker 2 (02:01:04):

I agree. Why reinvent the wheel? Obviously there was somebody that had to invent the wheel, and I do believe in musical integrity, and maybe you have this crazy idea, which just takes the world by storm. But I think at that point, there's something to be said about if you want to break into the industry and be really good at this certain genre, you kind of have to figure out how to nail that first, and then you can start throwing your little tidbits into it, which I think it's a foolproof idea.

Speaker 1 (02:01:39):

Plus, you can't control if the world is going to respond to your music. So to approach it from the perspective of I'm going to set the world ablaze with my music is kind of unrealistic. I get it if people have those ambitions because I get it. I've always had huge ambitions, but you should still approach it in the most realistic way possible, and so the way that helps you get the deepest understanding possible of the craft is the best, in my opinion.

Speaker 2 (02:02:16):

Yep. I agree.

Speaker 1 (02:02:17):

So awesome. I think this is a good place to stop it. I want to thank you very much for coming on the podcast. It's been awesome speaking with you.

Speaker 2 (02:02:27):

Oh man, the pleasure is all mine on our little Valentine's Day podcast dates. I love

Speaker 1 (02:02:32):

That. Yeah, absolutely. Happy Valentine's Day.

Speaker 2 (02:02:35):

Thank you to you too.

Speaker 1 (02:02:37):

Thanks. Okay, then another URM podcast episode in the bag. Please remember to share our episodes with your friends, as well as post them to your Facebook, Instagram, or any social media you use. Please tag me at al Levi RM audio, and of course, please tag my guests as well. Till next time, happy mixing. You've been listening to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast. To ask us questions, make suggestions and interact, visit URM Academy and press the podcast link today.