BRODY UTTLEY: Recording with Erik Rutan, Guitar Tone Secrets, and Producer-Band Relationships

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

All right, so we're good. All right, cool. How are you guys doing?

Speaker 2 (00:00:03):

Great. I'm not good.

Speaker 1 (00:00:04):

I know. Why not?

Speaker 2 (00:00:06):

Okay. I'm good now.

Speaker 1 (00:00:07):

Okay, cool.

Speaker 2 (00:00:08):

I'm all right.

Speaker 1 (00:00:09):

All right. Well, it's been nice podcasting with you guys.

Speaker 3 (00:00:12):

Yep. Later. Thanks guys.

Speaker 1 (00:00:13):

Bye. So you were saying off camera that you went on the Concord once?

Speaker 3 (00:00:18):

I did. Yeah. When I was a little kid,

Speaker 1 (00:00:20):

I was on the plane last night. I was talking about how I feel really unfortunate that I didn't get to ride it because I'm an aviation freak. Was it cool or were you too young

Speaker 3 (00:00:31):

To Yeah, it was. No, I do remember it pretty vividly and it was awesome. I remember it was a big deal that we were getting to ride on it.

Speaker 1 (00:00:40):

It was a big deal.

Speaker 3 (00:00:40):

Yeah, it was sick. It was awesome.

Speaker 1 (00:00:42):

Could you feel it when it was going 1300 miles an hour?

Speaker 3 (00:00:46):

Yeah. There's a little digital readout at the front of the plane that showed you how fast you were going and when you hit mock one or whatever the hell it is, it updated.

Speaker 1 (00:01:03):

Geez. But you're way higher than regular planes do. I

Speaker 3 (00:01:08):

Think

Speaker 1 (00:01:09):

It's like 50,000 feet or something like that. I think

Speaker 2 (00:01:11):

It's like 60.

Speaker 1 (00:01:11):

60. Okay.

Speaker 2 (00:01:12):

So there's less air resistance.

Speaker 1 (00:01:14):

I don't know. Yeah, there is, but also there's less frame of reference against the ground or anything, so you probably really can't tell that you're going that much faster.

Speaker 3 (00:01:27):

Yeah, I mean, I remember it being very cool.

Speaker 2 (00:01:31):

I did read that there's a plane that they're developing or working on. Maybe they're almost done with LA to Tokyo in like two hours.

Speaker 4 (00:01:40):

I saw that too.

Speaker 2 (00:01:41):

Yeah.

Speaker 4 (00:01:41):

How does that work? I have no idea.

Speaker 1 (00:01:43):

I don't know. So what I've read is that the problem with supersonic flight is that zoning ordinances and noise ordinances don't really allow for it because of the sonic boom. Have you ever heard of Sonic Boom in real life?

Speaker 4 (00:02:01):

Yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:02:02):

It's crazy. Sometimes it'll destroy windows, but at best it'll just rattle people's houses so they could only go supersonic over the ocean, and I think it ended up being not just inconvenient, but super expensive and that's why they haven't done more supersonic airplanes for commercial use.

Speaker 3 (00:02:27):

Interesting.

Speaker 1 (00:02:27):

Yeah. Fascinating to talk about on a recording podcast.

Speaker 3 (00:02:30):

Yes, absolutely. Let's talk more about aviation.

Speaker 1 (00:02:33):

Okay, that's fine. If they do make a supersonic airliner, I'm going to go on it.

Speaker 3 (00:02:42):

I would love to.

Speaker 1 (00:02:42):

Don't care what the cost is. Would you go to space on commercial? Are we allowed to swear?

Speaker 2 (00:02:48):

I think I would. Okay. Yeah, I definitely would.

Speaker 1 (00:02:51):

Yeah. I'd go to space if it was affordable. Go there and stay

Speaker 3 (00:02:54):

There if it was affordable. Yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:02:55):

Absolutely. Go there and stay. Would you be one of those people?

Speaker 3 (00:02:58):

Fuck dude. You said you're going to stay. Yeah, I'll just stay up there. Stay in

Speaker 1 (00:03:02):

Space. Did you hear about those people recently that were signing up for? I don't know if it was a legit thing, but they were trying out to sign up for a one-way trip to Mars, not come back, and lots of people signed up. I'm about it. Not astronauts and Normies and stuff. So you'd do that

Speaker 3 (00:03:26):

If I didn't have kids, I probably would. Yeah. Why not?

Speaker 1 (00:03:29):

But I mean you would have no interest in coming back.

Speaker 2 (00:03:35):

No.

Speaker 1 (00:03:36):

Fair enough. I can see that.

Speaker 2 (00:03:38):

I'll do round trip.

Speaker 1 (00:03:39):

Round trip, but I don't think that was an option.

Speaker 2 (00:03:42):

Yeah, it wasn't.

Speaker 1 (00:03:43):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:03:44):

I'm just I'm good putting

Speaker 1 (00:03:45):

It out there. What about you, Brody? Join

Speaker 3 (00:03:49):

Me. Brody. We

Speaker 4 (00:03:49):

Can. I think it depends if Taco Bell got there before me. That's a good point actually.

Speaker 3 (00:03:54):

Good point. You raise a good

Speaker 4 (00:03:55):

Point. If there was Taco Bell and coffee, I don't know. I probably would go,

Speaker 1 (00:04:03):

Is there weed on Mars?

Speaker 4 (00:04:04):

Yeah, that too.

Speaker 1 (00:04:05):

In the Martian. He had Vicodin. He did. He did, but he ran out.

Speaker 4 (00:04:10):

If it's just Matt Damon and a bunch of fucking potatoes, I'm not really interested. But if there's coffee and weed and Taco Bell and Carson, I mean, I would probably go. Thank you.

Speaker 1 (00:04:22):

Did you see Interstellar the year that the Martian came out?

Speaker 3 (00:04:27):

Yeah, I did. Interstellar. I've seen it like 10 times.

Speaker 1 (00:04:31):

Same here. Did you think it was funny at all that a similar cast

Speaker 3 (00:04:36):

Was? Oh, it was just Matt Damon pops up in the middle of

Speaker 1 (00:04:38):

Night. Same just Matt Damon. There were other people that were in Interstellar that were in the Martian, and it came out at the same time. So in the preview, I think Jessica Chastain, I believe I saw The

Speaker 3 (00:04:50):

Martian once.

Speaker 1 (00:04:52):

I just remember seeing the preview and it was some of the same people, and I was like, is this a prequel or a sequel? What is going on here? It had nothing to do with it. Yeah,

Speaker 4 (00:05:04):

I liked Interstellar Moore.

Speaker 3 (00:05:05):

Interstellar was,

Speaker 4 (00:05:06):

Fuck. Yeah,

Speaker 3 (00:05:06):

The soundtrack was amazing.

Speaker 4 (00:05:08):

Yeah.

Speaker 3 (00:05:08):

And have you ever watched the bonus features on the Blu-ray with the Han Zimmer making the soundtrack with that pipe organ? It's amazing.

Speaker 1 (00:05:18):

The reasoning behind it is great. What he was saying was that, well, first of all, they wanted to use something that they had never used on one of their film scores before in the Chris Nolan Han Zimmer collaborations. But also the reason that they chose that pipe organ was because Interstellar is about this technology that's beyond anything. It's the next level of technology, and that's what that pipe organ was at its time was the most complex piece of technology that people had ever created.

Speaker 3 (00:05:55):

That's a cool connection.

Speaker 1 (00:05:57):

So it was appropriate, and also because I guess of I'm a non-religious person, but because of I guess the religious connotation of a pipe organ and then also of how

Speaker 3 (00:06:11):

Some of the philosophical themes in the movie.

Speaker 1 (00:06:13):

Yeah. Yeah,

Speaker 3 (00:06:14):

It's great. I thought it was very fitting and it's such a unique sounding score.

Speaker 1 (00:06:19):

Yeah, totally. It's interesting because normally those kinds of sounds come from huge brass in scores in Han Zimmer scores especially, but they specifically wanted to avoid brass. They had done it. I wouldn't say to death, it was all great, but the inception and the Batman movies and all that were just brass spectacles.

Speaker 2 (00:06:43):

It's

Speaker 4 (00:06:44):

A more minimalistic approach,

Speaker 1 (00:06:46):

But it's huge.

Speaker 4 (00:06:48):

One of those that's like Interstellar is one of those soundtracks that no matter where I drop in, where on the track listing, I drop in. I absolutely know that. That's what I'm listening to. There's very few soundtracks I think that do that to me. Another one is the Fountain.

Speaker 3 (00:07:07):

Yeah.

Speaker 4 (00:07:07):

Clint, was it Clint Manzel? Is that his name? Who did that? He also did same guy who did stuff for Requiem for a Dream and stuff.

Speaker 3 (00:07:15):

He's a guy who works with Darren.

Speaker 4 (00:07:17):

Yeah. Yeah. A lot of the stuff that he's done as well has an instantly recognizable theme to my ear for some reason.

Speaker 1 (00:07:24):

So that Requiem for a Dream Music is interesting. It got really famous, but then it started, I don't know if you noticed, but for 10 years, it was an every single preview ever for a dramatic movie, which I think I actually heard Barovsky say that it bummed him out a little bit because it was so perfect for Wreck William for a Dream, and then it's in a disaster movie

Speaker 5 (00:07:52):

And

Speaker 1 (00:07:53):

Stuff like that. It kind of took away the power of that whole thing.

Speaker 4 (00:07:57):

There's another, it's not a full score, but it's just another song like that. It's called On the Nature of Daylight, and it's in every single movie ever. I forget what movie it was originally in. It was a bigger movie, and it was an awesome song. When you heard it, you're like, wow, that's super memorable and specific to this film, and then I've seen it in probably a dozen things since then. It's just been reused. It's really weird.

Speaker 1 (00:08:23):

You don't remember who wrote it?

Speaker 4 (00:08:25):

No, I just remember that it's called On the Nature of Daylight.

Speaker 3 (00:08:29):

It is one of those things I'd probably recognize if I heard

Speaker 4 (00:08:31):

It instantly. Yeah, it's an instant. You would absolutely know if you heard it. I forget who wrote it. He's done a lot of stuff.

Speaker 3 (00:08:42):

I

Speaker 1 (00:08:42):

Got to look into it now. Yeah,

Speaker 4 (00:08:43):

Definitely. Look it up. It's on the nature of daylight. It's been in so much stuff. If

Speaker 3 (00:08:48):

Only we had a device that we could look this up on. I can't think of anything.

Speaker 1 (00:08:53):

Yeah, let me know.

Speaker 3 (00:08:54):

We're limited here.

Speaker 1 (00:08:56):

Another one is the theme from 28 days later.

Speaker 3 (00:08:58):

Yeah. Oh, is it Godspeed?

Speaker 1 (00:09:00):

I'm not sure.

Speaker 3 (00:09:01):

Emper Black Emperor did that. I'm pretty sure. Really. It was either Godspeed or Explosions in the Sky. I'm pretty sure it was Godspeed,

Speaker 4 (00:09:09):

The heavy one.

Speaker 3 (00:09:10):

They have a song, the scene where Killian Murphy first wakes up and he doesn't know what's going on and he realizes he's walking around the town realize,

Speaker 5 (00:09:20):

Yeah,

Speaker 3 (00:09:21):

That song that's playing through that whole portion of the movie is Godspeed, I'm pretty sure. Really pretty.

Speaker 4 (00:09:27):

That's That's probably why I like that. Correct me if I'm wrong,

Speaker 3 (00:09:30):

So much

Speaker 4 (00:09:30):

Interesting,

Speaker 3 (00:09:32):

And on the nature of Daylight, it turns out was by Max Richter.

Speaker 1 (00:09:39):

Good job Max. I have no idea who that is, but good job, max. It's weird. I would've thought that there was some sort of exclusivity or something.

Speaker 4 (00:09:50):

It's been in a lot of shows too, a lot of Netflix exclusive stuff and whatnot, so I don't know if the licensing works differently for that kind of thing, but I've definitely seen it in probably 10 or 12 things.

Speaker 3 (00:10:04):

Yeah, it's a Godspeed song on 28 days later soundtrack.

Speaker 4 (00:10:07):

That's cool. I like that soundtrack even more now,

Speaker 1 (00:10:09):

I've seen, if we're talking about the same thing, the same Bart, I've seen it in lots of different previews now.

Speaker 3 (00:10:15):

Yeah, they've used it in some other movies for sure.

Speaker 1 (00:10:19):

How do you feel about that? I mean, it's great for the composer because the composer, and I guess it makes me happy whenever I hear about someone who writes music having more income opportunities, but on an art level, it kind of bugs me a little.

Speaker 3 (00:10:35):

I see that angle of it, and I would say that I mostly agree with that angle because for me, when I see a movie like 28 days later, for instance, and that song is introduced to me, my brain connects it to that imagery

Speaker 5 (00:10:48):

And

Speaker 3 (00:10:49):

It colors that imagery for me emotionally. How I watch the movie is very much dictated by the score and what's happening underneath the scene musically. But when I start seeing that same piece of music pop up in other movies, at first, I'm kind of the mindset of like, well, that belongs in that first movie, but it might be interesting to pair that same music that you have this previous association with new imagery, and maybe it'll produce a completely different emotion for you. Like

Speaker 2 (00:11:24):

The Star Wars theme and a slasher film.

Speaker 3 (00:11:26):

Right, exactly. That's the perfect example. Yes.

Speaker 1 (00:11:30):

That's a great inception and a

Speaker 3 (00:11:32):

Romantic comedy. I love that they use that Star Wars music in that new movie, hereditary. It's really effective.

Speaker 1 (00:11:40):

The thing is, I often wonder if it's the composer's idea to do that, or if it's purely a commercial motivation that someone who owns the rights, who's not the composer, it's like, this is cool, cool theme. We'll use it for this. And the composer just deals They got paid and getting paid, getting check.

Speaker 3 (00:12:03):

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:12:04):

Yeah.

Speaker 3 (00:12:04):

So I mean, it makes perfect sense, but I think it can be interesting. I've seen it. I've seen it done effectively before is my point. I guess.

Speaker 1 (00:12:12):

So what about something, I mean, you just made the joke about Star Wars, but what about something like iconic like James Bond theme or something where it's so clearly that

Speaker 3 (00:12:22):

If it's written specifically for a character or a specific movie, I think that's a completely different thing.

Speaker 1 (00:12:28):

So Jason Bourne suddenly had the James Bond theme.

Speaker 3 (00:12:31):

Yeah, kind of weird. I don't think that would work. Those iconic themes that are written specifically for a character or a franchise like the Star Wars theme or the James Bond theme, obviously that won't work if you take a Godspeed song and put it in another movie as background music. Perhaps It could

Speaker 1 (00:12:48):

Work, I guess, though, but they don't know it's going to be a franchise when they write it. The James Bond, I know that when they made Dr No, they had a tiny budget and they didn't know that it was going to turn into some worldwide phenomenon that lasted over 50 years. He just wrote a theme for that movie, and then it got huge. So I figure the guy who wrote The Requiem for a Dream song theme, the famous one was probably thinking, this is how I feel about dying from drugs and getting your arm cut off and all the terrible things that happened in that movie. I wasn't thinking of Timothy Dalton running away from a Volcano

Speaker 3 (00:13:37):

Exactly. Or something.

Speaker 1 (00:13:38):

No, I did see it in a preview for a Timothy Dalton. Was it not Timothy Dalton? It was Pierce Brosnan. Sorry, I'm getting my bond.

Speaker 2 (00:13:45):

Is it Roger Dalton? Was that the guy's name?

Speaker 1 (00:13:48):

No, no.

Speaker 2 (00:13:48):

Timothy Dalton.

Speaker 1 (00:13:49):

Timothy Dalton was, but I Roger.

Speaker 2 (00:13:51):

Roger Moore. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:13:52):

No, he wasn't in a Volcano movie. It was Pierce Brosnan was in a volcano movie.

Speaker 3 (00:13:56):

Dante's Peak.

Speaker 1 (00:13:57):

Yeah. Okay. Dante's Peak. So in the preview to Dante's Peak was the Requiem for Dream music. Totally. I just don't think that the composer was thinking Bond running from a volcano.

Speaker 3 (00:14:09):

Exactly. Yeah. I think it completely depends on the context.

Speaker 1 (00:14:12):

Fair enough.

Speaker 3 (00:14:14):

But like I said, my first thing when I see stuff like that is just that belongs in that first movie.

Speaker 2 (00:14:21):

Totally. I just saw Rivers of Nylon, a yogurt commercial.

Speaker 1 (00:14:24):

That was probably good.

Speaker 2 (00:14:25):

What am I still doing here? Then? It's marketed to women in their young thirties.

Speaker 1 (00:14:32):

Are you going to go buy Bentley next after that yogurt commercial?

Speaker 4 (00:14:36):

Probably the Rolls-Royce Phantom, but yes, fair enough. Something along those lines. For sure.

Speaker 1 (00:14:43):

So speaking of Rivers of Nile,

Speaker 4 (00:14:45):

Right?

Speaker 1 (00:14:46):

You guys know each other, right?

Speaker 4 (00:14:47):

Wait, you're in a band, dude. Who are you?

Speaker 1 (00:14:50):

How long have you guys known each other?

Speaker 3 (00:14:53):

Since at least 2009. Right? We were just talking about since Carson, how depressingly Long ago. We did that first ep.

Speaker 4 (00:14:59):

Carson was 27 when he recorded our first ep.

Speaker 1 (00:15:05):

He's 48 now.

Speaker 4 (00:15:06):

He's 40. I'm 60, 49 now.

Speaker 3 (00:15:08):

Please

Speaker 4 (00:15:08):

Don't age. Don't be ageist. Yeah. We've known each other for I guess 10 or more years actually. You guys were both playing in Century Together and yikes, me and Biggs's, old thrash band played with you guys at some skate

Speaker 3 (00:15:26):

Park. Oh, shit. Were feel like, I remember.

Speaker 4 (00:15:29):

Yeah. What band? What was it called? Dian. I fucking totally remember. That was hilariously horrible thrash band.

Speaker 2 (00:15:38):

Been like sound wave.

Speaker 4 (00:15:39):

No, it maybe, I don't know. I just remember there was halfpipe behind

Speaker 3 (00:15:43):

This. Yeah, I remember that show specifically,

Speaker 4 (00:15:45):

And you guys showed up Super light, just looking super bummed. I guess Bigs knew you because you recorded Dim the Lights and there was that whole connection. He was like, he's like, yo, amazing. That's Carson who did Dim the Lights, and I think that's when I met you first. Local

Speaker 1 (00:16:08):

Celebrity.

Speaker 4 (00:16:08):

Yeah, local celebrity shows up with a leather jacket.

Speaker 1 (00:16:11):

Glasses inside. Sunglasses.

Speaker 4 (00:16:14):

Yeah, sunglasses. I'm just a fucking prick dude. Yeah, like 10 years. I've known these guys pretty much.

Speaker 1 (00:16:20):

I didn't realize that you guys have a long history in bands together.

Speaker 3 (00:16:24):

Yeah, grant and I were in a band over 10. Well,

Speaker 2 (00:16:29):

I mean, I've known you since 2004.

Speaker 3 (00:16:33):

That sounds right. Yeah, that sounds right.

Speaker 2 (00:16:35):

You were recording August Burns Red demos while I was still in high school

Speaker 3 (00:16:38):

And you had your pop punk band.

Speaker 2 (00:16:40):

Yeah.

Speaker 3 (00:16:40):

And you came in and recorded with me. You were actually one of the first handful of bands I ever recorded. It was a your pop punk band. My own band at the time, August Burns Red, who was a local band at the time doing demos. Who, I don't know, I forget. There were a couple other, my friend Gary's Band, seven Revolutions, Gary in the IRM group. Great dude. Also a very, very good producer, engineer, and yeah, man, I remember that. It wasn't that long ago, but it was a long

Speaker 1 (00:17:20):

15

Speaker 3 (00:17:20):

Years. It was 15 fucking

Speaker 1 (00:17:21):

Years. Yeah, it was a while ago. So you guys worked together on an EP when you guys were local?

Speaker 4 (00:17:28):

The first thing we ever recorded back in 2010, I believe, at the old Grant Street location. Yeah, man.

Speaker 1 (00:17:37):

And then you went to Ruan Next?

Speaker 4 (00:17:39):

Well, so we recorded that EP with Carson, and then we recorded another EP with this dude, Len Carmichael

Speaker 1 (00:17:49):

Who Oh, I know that

Speaker 4 (00:17:50):

Name. Yeah. He primarily works with hardcore bands. I think

Speaker 1 (00:17:53):

He's a URM subscriber.

Speaker 4 (00:17:55):

Yeah, I think he is actually. But he recorded our next EP and then we came back to Atrium Audio and recorded three songs with Grant, which actually

Speaker 1 (00:18:07):

Fuck you, Carson.

Speaker 4 (00:18:08):

Yeah, Carson was not there for that. What was I doing? I don't

Speaker 2 (00:18:10):

Know. We didn't work together at that time.

Speaker 1 (00:18:12):

Oh, we were just doing our own thing.

Speaker 4 (00:18:14):

Yeah. Okay. That makes

Speaker 1 (00:18:15):

Sense. Were you guys signed yet?

Speaker 4 (00:18:16):

No. That's what actually ended up getting us signed were those three songs that we did with Grant.

Speaker 1 (00:18:22):

Which Grant got you signed and then you ditched them for Routan.

Speaker 4 (00:18:26):

Oh, grant, essentially. Well, okay. So

Speaker 1 (00:18:30):

Loyal.

Speaker 4 (00:18:31):

What really happened is we recorded those songs with Grant, did a music video for one of them that got us on Metal Blades Radar as well as Rutan's Radar and Rutan, I guess kind of knowing the people at Metal Blade. He worked with us to get us in with them. So for our first record, not going to him would've kind of been a direct fuck you to him. Totally. So we did do our first record with him, which wasn't a huge learning experience for us. We were all 20, 19, 21 years old. We were just shithead. Well,

Speaker 1 (00:19:08):

Grant, we were just talking about this. How did you feel working with them? And then I'm sure that you were thinking, if I can get this band signed, I'll get to do the record.

Speaker 2 (00:19:21):

Yeah, I think there's always going to be that kind of thought in the back of your head. Well, I worked with them, so hopefully they're going to come back and we're going to make more music together. And sometimes it happens. A lot of times it does, and there's times where it doesn't, and there's always going to be a part inside my head where I'm just like, oh, that kind of sucks. I really love to do that, but at the same time, I don't really, it's their choice and their decision. So it's like,

Speaker 1 (00:19:44):

Yeah. You're saying that now that you're older and more mature and have a well established career, but that sounds like when you were first establishing your career, but I guess what I'm getting at is too, no matter how much it bugged, you obviously didn't ruin your relationship.

Speaker 2 (00:20:01):

No, I don't think there's,

Speaker 1 (00:20:03):

Which a lot of people do when that happens.

Speaker 2 (00:20:05):

There's no reason for bad blood.

Speaker 3 (00:20:07):

I don't know. It's, we've always pretty much been of the mindset that a band needs to make their own decisions and trust that the band is making the best decision for where they're at at any given time.

(00:20:20):

So you can never, as a producer take it personally. If one band, even if you worked with this band a lot, decides to go try something new, that's their prerogative. That's something that they need to do. And a lot of times, at least for bands that I know that I've worked with who have gone on to work with other people as well, even if I wanted to continue working with them, they typically come out of it having learned lot more as a band from just having that different experience working with someone different in the production capacity.

Speaker 2 (00:20:53):

Actually, a perfect example of this, because my old band this or The Apocalypse, we did an album with Carson, and actually I guess they did two albums with you.

Speaker 3 (00:21:05):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:21:06):

Sentinels and Monuments,

Speaker 3 (00:21:07):

Right?

Speaker 2 (00:21:09):

Well, when I joined the band, we did that album with you, and then I got this other opportunity through Chris Adler, and then we went and worked with Josh Wilber. So we actually did go and record with somebody else, but then I learned all this

Speaker 3 (00:21:22):

Stuff. I remember you came back from those sessions and you were like, look at all this stuff that I learned from Josh, and it was awesome because then it kind of trickled down to me too, and I learned some stuff indirectly from

Speaker 2 (00:21:34):

Well, because Josh learned everything from Andy Wallace. So really

Speaker 3 (00:21:37):

You passed down knowledge through these different opportunities,

Speaker 1 (00:21:40):

And that's a super mature way to look at it. I guess I'm bringing this up because I see this in the URM group a lot, and I know that me personally, it's bugged the shit out of me in the past when a band was supposed to come back and then didn't. So I see a lot of people posting about how it's happened and they're really, really bummed about it.

Speaker 5 (00:22:04):

And

Speaker 1 (00:22:04):

I agree with you guys. That's the right attitude a hundred percent. But what I'm wondering is how you dealt with it in the moment. I guess I realized that you can tell yourself that stuff, but there's still this emotional, there's got to be this emotional

Speaker 3 (00:22:26):

Oh, absolutely. It

Speaker 1 (00:22:27):

Stings a little bit,

Speaker 3 (00:22:28):

Right? For example, if the band August Burns Red, like I mentioned before, the way I met them was when I first started getting into recording and first started learning about it myself. They were the third or fourth band I ever recorded when they were a local band and they were unsigned and they were playing local shows, and we recorded a bunch of demos together and they ended up basically being over three or four sessions. They essentially comprised the band's first album that they did for solid state thrill seeker. And so I essentially did all the pre-pro for that record, and those were the demos that eventually got them signed to Solid State, and they did that first record with Adam D.

Speaker 5 (00:23:17):

And

Speaker 3 (00:23:17):

At the time I remember I was really hoping, I was thinking like, oh man, I would really love to get this full length album and have it be my first big thing or whatever, because this band just got have it be my first sign band that I recorded and at the time, and then I heard that they were going to go do the record with Adam D, and at the time I thought that I was going to be kind of bummed about it, but I was actually real stoked. I was a big kill switching gauge fan,

Speaker 5 (00:23:48):

And

Speaker 3 (00:23:49):

I knew that they, having become my friends by that point, would come back from that experience and give me a whole bunch of information that I could use

Speaker 5 (00:23:57):

To

Speaker 3 (00:23:57):

Make my own career more productive

Speaker 2 (00:24:02):

And how you tell them not

Speaker 3 (00:24:03):

To go do something. I just remember at that moment, I remember that specific instance because it was still super early, probably within the first year of me starting to record other bands, and it was one of those things that I could have gotten really bummed about, but I remember being really excited about it, and that kind of set the tone for how I approached those types of things. Since then till now, I mean, you'll always be a little bummed if you were trying to really gun for a project and you end up not getting it. But I think at the end of the day, not being mature and professional, not burning a bridge and handling things in a levelheaded way is always going to be the best option for you because look what happened eventually, August Burns Red started coming back and we've done their last five records

Speaker 1 (00:24:56):

And Brody and Sons

Speaker 3 (00:24:59):

And they same thing. Exactly. So I think that there's something to be said for maintaining friendly relationships with people, even if people in bands, even if they end up going and working with someone else in a production capacity, because you can learn a lot of stuff. B, you don't burn a bridge or show everybody that you're immature.

Speaker 2 (00:25:22):

It's kind of like that whole business 1 0 1. Don't let emotions dictate a business decision. You kind have to wrangle that in your head.

Speaker 3 (00:25:29):

Exactly. But even taking all the strategic thinking away from it, I just think that if you approach those types of situations with that mindset, you're going to have more positive outcome and you're going to learn more.

Speaker 1 (00:25:45):

I do think though, for people starting out, it's easier said than done because when you are in a situation where you're struggling and you finally see the light at the end of the tunnel, I could be getting this band signed that are my friends. This could finally be how I break through and can quit delivering pizza or whatever it can be. It could be crushing. If you look at it the wrong way, it

Speaker 3 (00:26:16):

Could

Speaker 1 (00:26:16):

Be,

Speaker 3 (00:26:16):

Well, here's a really easy way to look at that. Tell yourself in those instances, is this the last album that this band is ever going to make? And if the answer is no, then you have a chance to do an album down the road. And if the answer is yes, then probably not a band in a position where it's going to benefit you anyway. You know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (00:26:36):

Yeah, that's a great way to look at it. And what's funny is I see a lot of people getting bummed about it with bands that don't matter,

Speaker 3 (00:26:42):

Right? Yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:26:43):

Of course. Just really bad local bands went to the other studio that has a board because they care about that for some weird reason.

Speaker 3 (00:26:53):

It's silly to get sour about stuff like that.

Speaker 1 (00:26:55):

Totally. So Brody, obviously they were cool enough about it that you came back, but I imagine for you a young death metal band working Rutan because I mean, I remember Rutan and Morbid Angel when I was like 15 or 16, I think I'm older than you. Rutan was a fucking hero. I remember him being the dude in Morbid Angel that had the great, great solos, and then

Speaker 3 (00:27:24):

He's so sick.

Speaker 1 (00:27:25):

Yeah. Then he started recording. The recordings were not so good at first, but then they got better and better and better, and he just was, he's just a legend. So I'm sure for you guys getting to go with Rutan was just like, wow.

Speaker 4 (00:27:41):

Yeah, it was horrifying

Speaker 1 (00:27:44):

As in

Speaker 4 (00:27:45):

Intimidating. Yes.

Speaker 1 (00:27:46):

Yeah,

Speaker 4 (00:27:47):

We were, I can imagine,

(00:27:49):

Like I said, 19, 20, 21 years old, first record on a record label. We were completely under prepared. We had watched all of the cannibal Corpse DVDs and all the Manis Studios videos on YouTube and saw how all these legendary record death metal records had been recorded there. And we thought, yeah, it's exactly how it's going to go for us. We're just going to go in there and do it. It's going to be great. And while it was definitely one of the biggest learning experiences of my entire life, I am glad, I glad that I did it, that it happened. I don't think without that first record being recorded with Eric, that I would've made the decisions or we would've made the decisions that we've made as a band since then. I mean, we took

Speaker 1 (00:28:46):

A lot away from, is it case of his task master like tendencies?

Speaker 4 (00:28:50):

Yeah. And I think it showed us a lot about how things really worked in reality versus how we saw them on A DVD, for example. At that point, we had heard Kill from Cannibal Corpse and Evisceration Plague, and we thought that we're going to go in there and we're just going to get a record like that.

Speaker 1 (00:29:13):

Just that

Speaker 3 (00:29:16):

Cook me up one of those.

Speaker 4 (00:29:17):

Right, exactly. And it was our first record, and we're a nobody death metal band, so as you can imagine, the budget was tiny. We had

Speaker 1 (00:29:28):

To do, I'm sure it was like $3,000

Speaker 4 (00:29:29):

Or something, I think it was like was five. Damn. Yeah. Big money. And so we went in there and we had to do that whole record in two weeks. No. So we didn't do anything beforehand. Better

Speaker 1 (00:29:43):

Be ready

Speaker 4 (00:29:44):

And we weren't. Whereas with these guys, I've done the guitar and the bass and everything on my own and brought it to them, and then we do the record from there at their studio on that first record, we didn't have anything before we went in. We had the album written in some shitty pre-production, and that was about it. And we had two weeks to make a record, and we thought we were just going to go in there and shit out a kill quality record or evisceration play quality record. And those records took two months to make because they had real budgets and they were real professionals, and we were absolutely not that. And it was definitely a huge learning experience for us. We lost two band members as a result of that recording session.

Speaker 1 (00:30:29):

What caused them to leave?

Speaker 4 (00:30:32):

Just the absolute, the realization of them having to play their parts

Speaker 1 (00:30:41):

To that standard,

Speaker 4 (00:30:43):

Our original drummer, those sessions crushed him because as you can imagine, Eric Rutan being a guy who still works with tape a lot, even when he's recording on the Goat Who records and whatnot that he's done in the last few years, and I think he did the last eternal record to tape, if I'm not mistaken. Anyway, knowing how he is with expecting performances out of people just like that to the standard that you would to be recording to tape, he takes that into the digital realm as well. And for our drummer who was 19 years old, we were all completely unprepared. Alright, go. You could fix that. Right. Well, and that's the other thing is that because we had done records with these guys before and we saw how, oh, well yeah, we can do drum comps and then punch this in and then slide this over and whatever. We thought that's just how it was everywhere. So we go to Eric who doesn't really do any of that stuff, and we absolutely needed it, and it really taught us a lot about ourselves as people and players. So like I said, it was a very difficult time, but

Speaker 1 (00:32:01):

Describe what an average crushing guitar session would be like.

Speaker 4 (00:32:07):

Well,

Speaker 1 (00:32:08):

Just give us a little

Speaker 4 (00:32:11):

Description. Believe it or not, one of the slower songs on that record and easier songs to play on that record was one of the ones that took the longest. It was a song called Soil and Seed, and it was a very slow grooving morbid Angel kind of tune, and we're recording it with Eric hilariously. So there was a lot of octaves in that song, and we tune very low down to F Sharp on seven strings. So you can imagine the intonation issues we have and Eric's ear for tuning issues, tuning Nazi is insane. And for that song in particular, I remember we spent six, seven hours on one section of that one song on guitars, and it was like three or four octave chords, maybe that was just how it was. And we would start our sessions at I think noon or one in the afternoon and go until whenever because he said that Death metal doesn't, you don't record death metal during daylight or something like that. So we were just fried. You didn't know that? No, I didn't. Dude, that's the

Speaker 1 (00:33:28):

Unwritten

Speaker 4 (00:33:31):

Rule's, common knowledge. We were all whacked out during those sessions because of the schedule, but in hindsight, it's kind of cool that there's still somebody that's doing shit that way. I mean, he has a very specific sound when you go to Eric, you know what you're getting.

Speaker 3 (00:33:48):

I think that's awesome.

Speaker 4 (00:33:49):

Yeah, I

Speaker 3 (00:33:49):

Think it's a real producer.

Speaker 4 (00:33:50):

I think it's cool. It has a very, from what I've read of how things used to be at Morris Sound Studios and all of the old school studios, it's still very much like that at Manus Studios. And I still talk to Eric regularly. I mean, I saw him when he came through with Cannibal Corpse a couple of months ago. We've toured with Haiti Eternal since then. We've stayed in touch and good friends, and it's kind of funny to joke with him about, because we use Kempers and stuff and we've recorded records that have a more modern sound to him. So he always busts our balls about certain things and we give him shit for being an old man and all that. So it's kind of funny how our relationship has continued over the years. We're still good friends, and I am very glad to have done that record with him. It taught us a lot about what to do next.

Speaker 3 (00:34:40):

It was a really important experience, I would say.

Speaker 4 (00:34:43):

Absolutely. Just for

Speaker 3 (00:34:44):

You guys as a band, sounds like bootcamp.

Speaker 4 (00:34:47):

It absolutely was. That's exactly what it was. And I wouldn't have done it any differently. I mean, maybe I would've, but I can have done it any differently. So here we are.

Speaker 1 (00:34:57):

So when you got them back, were they like a changed band?

Speaker 2 (00:35:02):

I mean, it was definitely a different, it's a different lineup too.

Speaker 3 (00:35:05):

Yeah. You could tell that they'd learned a whole lot and so had we in that time,

Speaker 2 (00:35:12):

Yeah, we both had changed so much. I mean, I think Brody came in with at least really solid pre-production, if not tracks that we were using at that point. Right.

Speaker 4 (00:35:21):

Yeah. I tracked the whole record guitar and bass on monarchy. So

Speaker 2 (00:35:25):

Yeah, so it was just a different level of preparation and musicianship and expectations versus reality.

Speaker 4 (00:35:34):

I learned my lesson through the Eric thing. I learned a lot, especially a lot about tuning and intonation, truly being in tune. I went out and bought a mechanical strobe tuner. I got all crazy with that for a while and applying that to what I went on to do with these guys and with other projects, that's definitely one of the most important things that I took away from that.

Speaker 1 (00:35:59):

So what are some of the things just for guitar players out there that you changed up tuning for intonation and tuning that just became part of how you work that you didn't do previous?

Speaker 4 (00:36:12):

I guess just if I'm recording a section that's up higher on the neck tuning the guitar, if I'm having intonation issues, we do tune very low tuning the guitar for that riff. So if I'm playing a power chord up on or an octave chord up on the ninth fret or whatever, and it's just in tune when it's open, it's obviously not going to be in tune when you're up there perfectly. So a lot of times what I'll do is if I have a section that's up a little higher or has a lot of octaves in it, I'll stop recording and I'll tune the guitar for that specific section to a strobe tuner, which I didn't know anything about strobe tuners when we went in for our first record and let alone intonation at all. Really

Speaker 3 (00:36:56):

Crucial.

Speaker 4 (00:36:57):

Crucial. And now you have stuff like the Ever Tune the Ever Bridges, which I've never worked with, but it looks like a godsend for rhythm tracking.

Speaker 3 (00:37:09):

Oh, it makes rhythm tracking go way faster. And typically if there are bendy parts, we'll just punch those in afterwards because you can set the guitar up to bend, but when it's in Bend stop mode, it just makes everything fly. So from a logistical time saving perspective, it is definitely a godsend.

Speaker 4 (00:37:29):

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that the intonation stuff in particular and string gauges using a 22 PG string, which I never would've done before. I probably would've used a 15 or a 17 just to have the tuning stability for such a low tuning, just stuff like that that I never would've thought of picks

Speaker 2 (00:37:50):

Having the right scale length.

Speaker 4 (00:37:51):

Scale length. I mean, luckily we have a deal with Keel guitars and they make 27 inch scales, so that's super friendly for our tuning, using different picks than you would use live like the Dunlop, the Green Dunlop picks, the Totex ones. Normally I would use Jazz three picks live, but using them on a record, it just sounds

Speaker 1 (00:38:15):

Better. Thank you for saying that. We just released a guitar course, we made it with Andrew Wade that it's called Ultimate Guitar Production, and that's what it is. It goes from setup all the way through mixing everything between, and there's a lot of sections about stuff like that picks

(00:38:35):

Where there's shootouts and lots of shootouts of eight different picks and string brands, string gauges, all that. Just to show that it makes a huge difference. And what we found was interesting was I guess sometimes I, sometimes I take this stuff for granted just because I've done it for so long. It's just obviously different picks matter what you use live because it feels best isn't necessarily what's going to sound best. Sometimes I take it for granted, and we have so many URM students who've been around for so long that they know that. So sometimes, and I need to keep reminding myself of this, so lots of people don't know this yet, and we got a lot of people who were like, fuck you. I use this and you're not going to tell me to use this other pick. I use this pick. Then they'd watch the shootouts and try it

Speaker 4 (00:39:33):

And

Speaker 1 (00:39:34):

Be like, whoops, I was an asshole.

Speaker 4 (00:39:36):

Yeah, basically, I think that in the genre that we play, the Jazz three pick has kind of become the standard for the metal dude and for live, it's fine, but I've definitely ran some tests myself and compared to a big old green, just no competition, there's something about those transients that just pop in a way sicker way on just the 80 eights. I think that's what Dime Baggy used for his entire career were the Green 88 Totex is, and there's just something about those picks that sound to me better than those prime tone picks any picks that we had, I don't know, 12 or 15 different kinds of picks, and for whatever reason, the old Totex is one out, you'll burn through 'em like crazy, but they just sound better for whatever reason. I don't know.

Speaker 1 (00:40:31):

And you use the jazz threes just for comfort live

Speaker 4 (00:40:34):

And for solos or whatever. I've actually switched over to Dunlop released a Totex Flow pick recently, which I've found is kind of the best of both worlds. You get that really easy rolling in between strings you get with the jazz threes, but you also get the nasty pick attack of the big green. So I've been using those lately live and for recording, and I really liked them. But yeah, just stuff like that that I never thought about before. Through the Rutan experience, it really turned my eyes inward to myself and taught me a lot about what I was doing wrong and what I could do from there on out,

Speaker 3 (00:41:15):

I guess. Made you do some soul searching,

Speaker 4 (00:41:16):

Some soul searching.

Speaker 1 (00:41:18):

I about to say, grant,

Speaker 2 (00:41:19):

The other thing to point out is just even once you have that pick choice and the guitar strings and the tuning and the amp and everything, if you hand all that stuff to another guitar player, then it sounds completely different.

Speaker 1 (00:41:29):

Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (00:41:30):

Completely. So the playing obviously has a big hand in that too.

Speaker 1 (00:41:35):

You put me on John Pet's rig.

Speaker 2 (00:41:37):

Yeah. Then it sounds like John Pettus. Exactly like John Pettus.

Speaker 1 (00:41:41):

I mean, he gave me his rig and I subbed for him one night, and

Speaker 2 (00:41:46):

You never sounded better, right?

Speaker 1 (00:41:47):

Yeah. He never sounded better,

Speaker 2 (00:41:48):

Right?

Speaker 1 (00:41:50):

Yeah. I think it's the same with drums

Speaker 5 (00:41:54):

And

Speaker 1 (00:41:54):

Bass too. Cold chamber was recording at my old studio, and I had to do a project that was scheduled before them, but it just so happened that cold chamber was coming in and I agreed to let them use my place. I wasn't the one recording cold chamber, but I had this other thing planned.

Speaker 3 (00:42:20):

Is that Mark?

Speaker 1 (00:42:21):

Yeah, mark did it. And so I was like, look, you can use my drum room, but I have to record this. I, this band is driving from California. This has been booked for six months. This is my studio. I'm using it. Let's figure something out. Cold chamber were cool enough to allow us to just use their set with the condition that nothing got moved, so nothing got moved. So the drummer from the other band was cool enough too, to just be like, all right, that's fine. We'll use that set. It is what it is, and I find most drummers can adjust.

Speaker 5 (00:43:02):

If

Speaker 1 (00:43:02):

They're good drummers, they can adjust. They have to live all the time. So anyways, same setup, same microphones, same. Sounded radically different, and I've had that experience lots of times. It's not just guitars. That whole thing about the tone is in the hands is so, so true.

Speaker 4 (00:43:23):

It really is. Chris, the guitar player in Grant and Carson's band, he had a Mesa Boogie Mark five for a while, and I remember him telling me that he set his up just like John Pucci set his up in all of the Mesa videos that he does demos for, and it sounded fucking horrible when Chris played it. It's like, well, that makes sense. Well, I mean, it does make sense. Makes perfect sense. But yeah, I mean, that just goes to show you

Speaker 1 (00:43:50):

Chris, what they're saying is,

Speaker 4 (00:43:51):

Yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:43:52):

We're just kidding, Chris.

Speaker 4 (00:43:53):

Yeah. But yeah, it goes to show you, I mean, John Pshi can make it sound like a dream and then give it to Chris or anyone else.

Speaker 3 (00:44:03):

See, that's the interesting thing to me about all these guitar tone packs that are really popular now, just especially with a Kemper and everyone's selling Kemper packs and we sold a Kemper pack. It's interesting to see how a lot of those tones are based on a specific person's playing, and then someone buys them because they're marketed to like, oh, this is that guy's tone. But then they play it and it sounds completely different.

Speaker 1 (00:44:30):

Absolutely.

Speaker 3 (00:44:31):

But obviously there's some wiggle room there. You can tweak them and everything. But it's interesting to me to see different people's opinions of some of these tone packs. Some people love them, some people hate them for that specific reason.

Speaker 2 (00:44:45):

I mean, I feel like it's the same almost as like, I'm going to buy Mariah Carey's microphone, so I should sound like her, right?

Speaker 3 (00:44:54):

I thought you did.

Speaker 2 (00:44:55):

Yeah.

Speaker 3 (00:44:55):

You do sound exactly like Mariah Carey. I've got her range pretty You do are striking resemblance to Mariah Carey.

Speaker 1 (00:45:03):

I actually sold before URM really got going. I had KM with Finn, our marketing guy. It was an unstoppable killing machine, and

Speaker 3 (00:45:14):

That's probably a good name these days.

Speaker 1 (00:45:16):

No. Oh, we changed it because when we changed it to recording, that's a

Speaker 3 (00:45:22):

Terminator reference, right?

Speaker 1 (00:45:23):

It was just a cool name, but not a cool name for an education company.

Speaker 3 (00:45:28):

Yeah, I was going to

Speaker 1 (00:45:29):

Say. But we sold tone packs. This was in 2015. We did one with John Brown for monuments, and he did not recreate his tones. He used the actual tones. He was using Line six stuff at that time. So his actual tones just exported from his software that were on his records, and they used live and sound amazing, amazing what he plays. He's got gorilla hands. He's incredible, but he plays super low gain. It's almost like Overdriven tone. It's almost not distortion. Distortion. It's not high gain and any normal human, I mean, maybe Hetfield could make it sound cool, got that right hand, but most normal human guitar players would play it and be like, what is this shit? I know that when I played it, I was like, really? This is it? But it was the actual tone. I've also noticed that we've been using Kemper for a long time. Whenever I tried to use a tone that somebody else got just

Speaker 4 (00:46:42):

The same for me.

Speaker 1 (00:46:42):

I mean, sometimes it might work, it might, but that's more luck of the draw in general. That's not even really what it was intended for. It was intended for people to be able to capture

Speaker 3 (00:46:55):

A

Speaker 1 (00:46:55):

Really great tone in the moment so that if the mic gets knocked or the band wants to go on tour and recreate their tone, so you have to reamp it, or you have an album that's done over multiple periods of time, that you have this tool that mitigates that problem. It wasn't meant for guitar Player X to take guitar player wise tone. It doesn't work that way.

Speaker 4 (00:47:19):

It never has. It takes everything into consideration, like your strings, your tuning, your playing style, literally everything in your signal chain. It takes that into consideration. And same with me. Anytime I've used another person's profile, there are a few, especially some of the lower gain stuff where it gets close, but there's always something just not right about it, which is why we at least since working with these guys, every time we get a tone on a record that we, we instantly profile it, so we have it and it's just there. But yeah, same thing. Anytime anyone's sent me their profiles, I've always been kind of bummed. It's something missing. I don't know.

Speaker 1 (00:48:04):

I remember getting the Keith Marrow ones, and Keith is a tone master. I got them, and I was like, no offense, Keith. When he plays them, they sound incredible. I remember getting those, or then I got Olas and I was like, what's going on? I mean, we just had Ola on nail the mix for the haunted, and man, his tone. I don't know if you heard that

Speaker 4 (00:48:27):

One. I have

Speaker 1 (00:48:28):

Actually. Dude, that tone is unbelievable. Yeah,

Speaker 3 (00:48:31):

Sounds

Speaker 1 (00:48:32):

Amazing. Yeah. Unbelievable. He's an unbelievable tone guitar player. But I would play on his profiles and be like, I don't know. It doesn't sound like him. I wonder why, because they're not profiling his hands or his brain.

Speaker 3 (00:48:50):

Yeah. Pretty soon we'll be able to do

Speaker 1 (00:48:53):

That. We'll get there.

Speaker 3 (00:48:53):

Yeah. And then the

Speaker 1 (00:48:54):

In 20 years from now,

Speaker 3 (00:48:55):

Cyborg Apocalypse will be upon us. Skynet. Hopefully.

Speaker 2 (00:48:58):

It'd be interesting to see how music production changes when that happens.

Speaker 3 (00:49:01):

Yeah, it will be. It'll be interesting.

Speaker 1 (00:49:04):

Well, when computers can figure out creativity, then I'll worry.

Speaker 3 (00:49:09):

They're kind of there. They're almost there. Honestly, not to be all tinfoil hat and stuff, but this is upon us.

Speaker 1 (00:49:17):

I don't know. I don't know. I really don't know, but I've heard people say that it's not even close.

Speaker 3 (00:49:24):

So they've made deep fakes, man. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:49:27):

Well, but that's fulfilling a certain, like a task, the deepfake thing. It's not thinking of it on its own.

Speaker 3 (00:49:36):

So I'm pretty sure, I'm sure someone will listen to this and correct me or something. I don't remember the name of the program, but apparently there's an algorithm that can essentially write symphonies in the style of any of the famous composers, and it has stumped, or it has fooled world-class experts on this.

Speaker 1 (00:50:06):

I'd like to see that.

Speaker 3 (00:50:07):

It is just like you put into the computer, write something that sounds like Bach, right, and it'll do something, and it's a completely original piece, but it sounds like Bach and experts have been fooled.

Speaker 1 (00:50:18):

The ones I've heard haven't sounded that great. You remember the one, this is

Speaker 3 (00:50:22):

Just an article. I've

Speaker 1 (00:50:23):

Never actually, the one that was going around read

Speaker 3 (00:50:25):

Or listened to it. Do

Speaker 1 (00:50:26):

You remember the one that was going around with Arc Spire actually about a few

Speaker 4 (00:50:29):

Months ago? Oh, yes, I saw that. Yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:50:30):

It wasn't good. What was it? So it was this AI learning death metal, and I guess it analyzed a bunch of Arc Spire tunes and then randomly generated new Arc Spire tunes, and it was occasionally you'd get a cool part.

Speaker 3 (00:50:48):

How was the mix? Was it sick?

Speaker 1 (00:50:51):

I mean, I think it was sounded like Ark Spire.

Speaker 3 (00:50:55):

Right on.

Speaker 1 (00:50:56):

But it sounded kind of stupid though. I don't know. I don't know enough about this, but what I've seen is that a lot of the really smart people who work on it are saying that what they're good at is doing specific tasks. So when you see that robot doing the back flips or the trapeze acts, the one thing they do,

Speaker 2 (00:51:22):

That's their Boston dynamics.

Speaker 1 (00:51:24):

That's what they're doing with their program to do. They're not like T two thousands that are thinking for themselves and have a purpose. They're just machines that are doing something really cool.

Speaker 3 (00:51:34):

That fucking robot dog thing, the Google dog thing, that thing's terrifying. Get away from it. Have you seen the Black Mirror episode with the fucking robot dog chasing the woman? It's like black and white. It's a sick episode. No

Speaker 1 (00:51:45):

Thanks. But that's coming up. What's the Google dog?

Speaker 4 (00:51:48):

It's this, do you want to explain it? It's what you're talking about. Go for it. It's just this quaded robot thing that can't be,

Speaker 1 (00:51:58):

But it's a real thing. You can

Speaker 4 (00:51:59):

Buy it. You can knock it over. If you kick it or shove it, it just goes,

Speaker 1 (00:52:04):

It's the Boston Dynamics

Speaker 4 (00:52:06):

Thing. Yeah. It makes this horrifying sound that I'm just like, this is it. This is the end of humanity. That sound. So yeah, that sound is, that sounds the end is the bell tolling of a new age. But I think that, and maybe, I don't know, maybe we don't know yet, but I feel like even if AI gets to the point where it can create art or music or do production on the level that human being can, I feel like it's always going to be pulling from examples that were created by humans. Because I think no matter how far down the line we get with ai, you're probably not going to be able to simulate something like childhood trauma or the loss of a loved one or a divorce inspiration

Speaker 2 (00:53:06):

Until you have a robot or an AI that you're raising from birth. It creates all those

Speaker 3 (00:53:14):

Experiences until an artificial intelligence achieves true sentience. You won't get that. But once it does, then arguably you're far off. Kind far off from that. There's a great book that I read it twice actually. It's called Homo.

Speaker 5 (00:53:33):

It's

Speaker 3 (00:53:34):

By Noel Harri. He's a guy who wrote Sapiens, which is kind of like a history of human civilization. And Homo Deus is kind of his follow-up, and it's his speculation on what is to come. And there's a lot of really eye-opening things in that. I mean, I can't even begin to paraphrase any portions of it, but it's definitely a good read. So if stuff like that interests you about

Speaker 1 (00:53:58):

It does. I just don't think it's as bad as people think yet.

Speaker 3 (00:54:02):

Not yet.

Speaker 1 (00:54:03):

Not yet.

Speaker 3 (00:54:04):

But we will get there if we don't blow ourselves up first. I'm sure.

Speaker 1 (00:54:06):

Yeah. Probably not in our lifetimes though.

Speaker 3 (00:54:09):

Yeah, maybe not.

Speaker 1 (00:54:10):

Hopefully, let us

Speaker 3 (00:54:11):

Deal with, deal with, I really hope that we don't achieve true sentient ai because I mean, depending on how much control we have with who's to say that they can't control us, and it's a T two type of scenario,

Speaker 1 (00:54:26):

But why would they want to

Speaker 3 (00:54:28):

Want motorcycle? Motorcycle? Well,

Speaker 1 (00:54:34):

I watched that recently. It is pretty,

Speaker 3 (00:54:35):

If it views humanity as a threat, and if you think about it, I mean, we are a pretty awful species. We do kill everything and we're the most destructive species on the face of the earth.

Speaker 1 (00:54:47):

Well, if it starts to feel that way, just take out its battery pack. I think it will probably throw some water on it. That'll probably do

Speaker 3 (00:54:54):

It.

Speaker 4 (00:54:55):

I think that the one thing that I would definitely want to know once we have AI reaching its own self-awareness, is it Kemper fractal or line six? Which is best?

Speaker 1 (00:55:10):

That's a good,

Speaker 4 (00:55:11):

I don't know. It'll have to know the age old argument, ke or ax effects. Kemper

Speaker 3 (00:55:18):

Will eventually achieve sentient and just kill ax effects.

Speaker 4 (00:55:22):

No, I just mean, will there be an AI that will be able to give the Correct. Give the correct answer, yeah. Kemper or ax effects? That's a really good question. It's the age old question. Which do you prefer? I like, I mean, Kemper for sure. All right. I mean, look at the facts here. Kemper is on hardware revision number zero. Every update that company has had has been software based. They're still on the original hardware piece and the shit sounds amazing. Sounds like you've made up your mind. I have, but I don't know. Fractal has what, five hardware revisions at this point. I don't know if it's better or not. I just think it's kind of cool that camper got it right the first time.

Speaker 2 (00:56:05):

I think it's two different pieces for two different purposes.

Speaker 4 (00:56:08):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:56:08):

I mean, creating a tone from scratch with an ax effects is a completely different thing than capturing an existing tone with a Kemper.

Speaker 4 (00:56:16):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:56:16):

Agree. So to me, that's why they're sort of, I

Speaker 4 (00:56:18):

Agree with you,

Speaker 2 (00:56:18):

Separate units for different purposes.

Speaker 4 (00:56:20):

I'm also very stupid and

Speaker 3 (00:56:24):

That's why I like how this became the Joe Rogan podcast for a minute. Is it? Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:56:29):

All this AI talk. He's got a great podcast. Yeah. Actually, I don't know. I actually had an astrophysicist on here.

Speaker 3 (00:56:36):

Really?

Speaker 1 (00:56:36):

It's coming out today. He measures the sound that planets make and

Speaker 3 (00:56:43):

Wild.

Speaker 1 (00:56:44):

Yeah, it's really wild. That's why I had 'em on because I guess there's some link to audio engineering. I also just wanted a chance to talk to someone way smarter than me. That's real sick. But yeah, we're starting to go in weird directions.

Speaker 3 (00:56:59):

I just read that book, astrophysics for People in a Hurry.

Speaker 1 (00:57:02):

I read that too. How is it?

Speaker 3 (00:57:03):

It's good. It's good. It's great.

Speaker 1 (00:57:05):

Is it for people in a hurry or do you actually do this? Yeah, you're in a

Speaker 4 (00:57:07):

Hurry.

Speaker 3 (00:57:08):

It's

Speaker 4 (00:57:08):

Neil deGrasse Tyson. Okay.

Speaker 3 (00:57:10):

The Cosmos.

Speaker 4 (00:57:11):

I like that episode that you guys did with, who was the woman that she,

Speaker 1 (00:57:18):

Susan Rogers?

Speaker 4 (00:57:19):

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:57:19):

Yeah.

Speaker 4 (00:57:19):

That was a sick episode.

Speaker 1 (00:57:21):

Yeah, that was really sick. And I love talking to people that smart, because I don't have to do much.

Speaker 5 (00:57:30):

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:57:32):

I just, it's like riding a wild tort. I didn't need to make sure it stays on track, but really, you just let 'em go. Let 'em go.

Speaker 4 (00:57:39):

Yeah. Just the, it's awesome. The part where she was talking about taking a group of people who are, as far as music theory goes, they have no idea what's going on. Just general listeners. And then you have another group where people do have a lot of knowledge on music theory and when you play them the same thing. I guess there's only a 5% variance in how music is interpreted by people who don't know what's going on theoretically versus people who do. It's such a small margin of

Speaker 1 (00:58:13):

Error. It's really interesting. I was actually talking to Jesse Cannon about this a couple days ago when I was stranded in Florida. He used to work with Ross Robinson,

Speaker 5 (00:58:26):

And

Speaker 1 (00:58:26):

Ross likes to have lots of people in the control room at all times, like a party, like girlfriends, friends, the whole band, which is the farthest thing from how I would ever want to work in my life. But he likes it to be a community thing, and if the basis girlfriend says something like that sounds weird or whatever, he'll listen to them and takes that into consideration, which is, I thought it was really interesting because lots of musicians and producers do not take into consideration what any person not in the project or not qualified say, but what he does actually fits in line with what Susan Rogers was saying, that non-trained, just the consumers actually just almost as sophisticated of a at least reaction

Speaker 2 (00:59:26):

To music. They're going to hear it differently and have different emotional reaction to things.

Speaker 3 (00:59:29):

Objectivity is one of the most important things, I think, in audio and music production. So if you get someone who doesn't know any of the technical stuff and is completely objective to weigh in, then that's valuable feedback.

Speaker 1 (00:59:43):

Do you guys like having a bunch of people in the

Speaker 3 (00:59:45):

Control? Alright, so from a workflow perspective, that would definitely not work for me. I hate it. Hate when people are behind me yapping or it's super distracting. So I actually, the less people in the control room, if you don't need to be there or if you're not offering input or something. I like it more minimal. But I do showing the music or the mix or in process or whatever to people who are objective. That's actually one of the things that I think makes Workflow Grant and my workflow work pretty well in separate rooms all the time. So we retain relative objectivity from what the other person's doing. So Grant can walk into my room after a couple hours of us both tracking and give us his input and vice versa. And it works really well. But the actual process of tracking, I definitely prefer less people. It would make me crazy.

Speaker 2 (01:00:39):

That is really interesting though. It is, right? I'm guessing that he doesn't prep them with this, Hey, I'm looking for your feedback. He just doesn't mind.

Speaker 1 (01:00:52):

He tells people, he tells the band and his engineers apparently to bring people just like it's a thing. It's a known thing. This is going to be a fun time. And

Speaker 3 (01:01:06):

Is that just while he is mixing?

Speaker 1 (01:01:08):

I think it's the whole time, except for maybe specific situations where it's not. But apparently it would drive me nuts. It would drive me nuts too. I can't handle it when the whole band is in the room.

Speaker 4 (01:01:28):

I could see for, depending on what kind of record it is, I could see if you had people there just for mixing that, that might add some interesting flavors to the mix. Maybe if you're making a more psychedelic record or whatever, or stranger kind of record a bunch of people's smoking weed in a room together, might a good idea might pop up or something like that. Just for mixing though. Absolutely. But for tracking or any of that stuff, probably not. I don't know. I feel like they would just get in the way, but as

Speaker 1 (01:02:00):

Far as, especially for the kind of music you make.

Speaker 4 (01:02:02):

Yeah, definitely. I mean, it's the tracking process and editing process, it's tedious. But when me and Carson were, he was mixing the record and I was kind of sitting there the whole time at the end. I don't know. I had a lot fun during those days.

Speaker 3 (01:02:21):

It was great. I thought that was a very creative

Speaker 4 (01:02:22):

Process actually. Yeah, it was a very in the moment feeling sort of thing. It wasn't like a clinical environment or anything. I feel like we got a lot of good ideas out for the mixing of the record and shared ideas with one another. So I think there's time and place for both.

Speaker 3 (01:02:40):

And I think also an important element of that is just ask the artist, you being open-minded and me ask the guy, mixing it, being open-minded as well. And if you have a good collaborative rapport, I suppose, then that will lead to more interesting product.

Speaker 4 (01:02:59):

Yeah, I mean that's a big part of it is having the artist being open to suggestions.

Speaker 3 (01:03:06):

Sure.

Speaker 4 (01:03:07):

I know guys that are just absolutely closed off from that kind of thing, but even though I write most of the music for the band, I'm usually not attached to anything. If someone has something that they want to bring to the table, even if they haven't been involved with the writing process from the beginning, I'm usually completely open to it. I mean, me and Carson collaborated on one track on this record, and it's probably my favorite song on the record. It's just really heavy, kind of nine inch nails sort of song. And when I brought it to the studio, it was basically just an acoustic guitar and drum song. And Carson, we both, we are both big Trent Resner fans and just kind of went down a rabbit hole talking about that. The songs took a whole different turn. Sick after that. It was sick. Yeah, it was

Speaker 3 (01:04:04):

Awesome. I love where it ended up, but that's a great example. We, neither of us knew kind where it was going to go, and we just kind of let it do its thing.

Speaker 4 (01:04:12):

And like I said, it's one of my favorite songs on the record. Same thing with the vocal production. The way that they run their studio is, I think it's really cool because Grant, well, at least at the old location, grant would be upstairs doing vocals with half of the band. And I would be downstairs with Carson working on whatever, and I would go upstairs after four or five hours and they would have a whole song done that I had literally never heard vocals on. And that would allow me to hear things from an objective point of view, especially on this last record, because we incorporated clean singing, which was never something that we did before, and is oftentimes a source of debate in the death metal community. So I didn't know how I was going to feel about that because Bigs are basis, who is also our lyricist. He told me we were going to be doing clean vocals on the record, and I was instantly kind of like, are we going to do this? Is we going to be one of those bands? It's

Speaker 1 (01:05:15):

Kind of a scary thing,

Speaker 4 (01:05:17):

But it's so silly not. And I went upstairs the one day never having heard clean vocals on our music and Grant hits the Space bar. And I'm like, oh yeah, of course. And that's the song that is this month Nail the Mix. So it was cool being able to walk into that situation, having never heard it, and then hearing all of a sudden this song with tons of clean singing on it. So it was cool.

Speaker 1 (01:05:47):

That could go either way.

Speaker 4 (01:05:48):

Oh, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:05:49):

That battle band,

Speaker 4 (01:05:50):

They just happened to nail it. And

(01:05:52):

I think Grant has a really good ear for building, whether it's choruses or harmonies or whatever. He has a really good ear for that kind of thing. And I think him and Biggs and Jake, our vocalists worked really well together to do what ended up being on the record. And I think the fact that we had never done it before, having Grant in the room who's worked on a lot of records before where he's had to build melodies and harmonies and stuff like that, I think that he was an incredibly useful part for the making of the record.

Speaker 2 (01:06:28):

I think it just helps to have that objective party no matter what, because obviously you guys, you live in a van or in a room together for so long, you're going to butt heads creatively on a lot of stuff. So you sort of need that other person to step in and be like, let's figure this out

Speaker 4 (01:06:44):

For sure.

Speaker 2 (01:06:44):

And I think that works in any scenario.

Speaker 4 (01:06:46):

Yeah, their process is so sick. I mean, I've talked to a lot of friends who have recorded with other people and it's usually just one person and they're pretty much doing everything. And I think it's cool that they have the system worked out that they do. It allows them to be outside of the box and then come into the box whenever they want to

Speaker 1 (01:07:07):

And work at what they're best at. What is it you don't like about recording vocals? I say you told me that it's not your thing.

Speaker 3 (01:07:18):

It's not my thing at all. I've recorded plenty of vocals in the past because I was recording before Grant and I started recording together other, it's not that I dislike it, it's that it's my least favorite part of the process.

Speaker 1 (01:07:33):

Same

Speaker 3 (01:07:33):

Here. And Grant is just extremely good at it. So it was just kind of, this is how this relationship works and it benefits both of us. He plays to his strength. I played my strength when we're both happy we save time works

Speaker 1 (01:07:48):

For me. It's just that, I don't know, I would hear things for other instruments. It would come to me just I get inspired by it and want to do it. And with vocals, it would always just be like, well, I'm doing it because we have to record vocals. But I don't know, the switch just wouldn't really come on for vocals in the same way as everything else.

Speaker 3 (01:08:16):

Yeah, it's same thing for me. It's just my, and I don't know if it's for any really specific reason, it's just it had always been my least favorite part of the whole process.

Speaker 1 (01:08:28):

I know why I hate lyrics.

Speaker 3 (01:08:31):

Lyrics are, yeah. The thing too is that a song that I've been in scenarios before where I thought the song was really great and then the vocals come in and the lyrics just completely ruin it for me.

Speaker 2 (01:08:45):

But then you have the guy's girlfriend sitting in the back of the room who says, I love that part. Right. And

Speaker 1 (01:08:50):

Then you're good.

Speaker 3 (01:08:50):

It can get messy.

Speaker 1 (01:08:53):

I don't know. For me personally, music has always had its own meaning. Just the way it sounds has been one thing. And I've always thought it's really pure. And then when you add, and hey, I love lots of bands with great lyrics, but for me creating music, I always felt like adding lyrics, just, how do I say this? Almost dumbs it down a little. I mean, it doesn't great vocals and great lyrics out there for sure. But for me, creatively, it didn't work because there's something about adding language to it that I feel takes away from how deep or pure of a,

Speaker 2 (01:09:40):

How

Speaker 3 (01:09:40):

Universal

Speaker 2 (01:09:41):

It is. Otherwise,

Speaker 1 (01:09:42):

Yeah, whatever that expression is

Speaker 2 (01:09:44):

Like now, it's specific.

Speaker 1 (01:09:46):

Yeah, it's specific and it's much, I think more mundane. I don't mean mundane as in shopping for groceries. I mean mundane is in down to earth.

Speaker 3 (01:10:00):

I was going to say shopping for groceries is extremely exciting for me. You like it? Oh dude, it's highlight of my week.

Speaker 1 (01:10:07):

I haven't shopped for groceries in a long time. I hate it.

Speaker 3 (01:10:11):

I'm just kidding. I absolutely hate it.

Speaker 1 (01:10:13):

Worst,

Speaker 3 (01:10:14):

Worst. Having to go to the store for anything, honestly.

Speaker 1 (01:10:16):

Instacart, give me a sponsorship please. Is

Speaker 3 (01:10:19):

Amazon delivering groceries

Speaker 1 (01:10:20):

Yet? They do

Speaker 3 (01:10:22):

In larger markets. I think. Not near us though.

Speaker 1 (01:10:26):

I don't know. Well, do you have a Whole Foods near you?

Speaker 3 (01:10:28):

We actually, a Whole Foods just went up near us.

Speaker 1 (01:10:30):

Then you probably will have Amazon delivering.

Speaker 2 (01:10:32):

That's right. They have a partnership now or do they own Whole Foods?

Speaker 1 (01:10:35):

They do. They

Speaker 2 (01:10:36):

Do. I think. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:10:37):

Yeah. So their grocery delivery is Whole Foods.

Speaker 3 (01:10:41):

Wow.

Speaker 1 (01:10:41):

It's pretty cool. I'm

Speaker 3 (01:10:42):

Going to have to hook that up.

Speaker 1 (01:10:44):

I would fuck going.

Speaker 3 (01:10:46):

Yeah. Seriously.

Speaker 1 (01:10:48):

It's such a waste of time.

Speaker 3 (01:10:50):

Yeah. I hate going, I hate going to the fucking grocery store, man.

Speaker 1 (01:10:52):

I hate anything that just adds time that I don't feel is a good use of my life. And it doesn't just have to be work. It's not that I'm wasting this time not working, it's that I'm just wasting this time. Yeah, it could be with my dog or something.

Speaker 2 (01:11:11):

Did I notice this at this point? Everything shows up at my house now in a box. Great. My wife orders everything.

Speaker 1 (01:11:19):

That's great.

Speaker 2 (01:11:20):

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:11:21):

I love Modern Life.

Speaker 4 (01:11:22):

I still go to the grocery store, unfortunately. And there's a robot there. Giant Foods has robots at their stores. Now what

Speaker 1 (01:11:29):

Do the robots do?

Speaker 4 (01:11:30):

Fucking get in my way? They move around the store. It's a cleaning robot. I think. So first of all, these robots are shaped like the fucking monolith from 2001 to Space Odyssey, and they have googly eyes on them.

Speaker 2 (01:11:44):

It looks like Gumby.

Speaker 4 (01:11:45):

And he has a name tag that says Marty, and he shaped like a the fucking monolith.

Speaker 3 (01:11:49):

Is it like Tars from Interstellar?

Speaker 4 (01:11:52):

Do

Speaker 3 (01:11:52):

You know the big blocky

Speaker 4 (01:11:53):

Robot? Kind of. It's like, how tall is it? Like seven feet tall? It's horrifying. Seems kind of like Aary state type thing. Dude, he just rolls around and I know half of the reason he is there is so they can see what's going on because there's cameras all over.

Speaker 2 (01:12:08):

I think employees have been fired from conversations that it picks up. Well,

Speaker 4 (01:12:13):

Big surprising, but he gets in my way. He's a fucking cop dude. He just gets in my way. I go into the grocery store and he's supposed to be there to, I don't know, make shit easier for people. And he just has sensors so that when anyone gets around him, he just stops and he just sits in the middle of the fucking aisle. I'm like, move. And it's not helpful at all. It's terrifying. I've seen children scream at him. I don't know. It has to be a lawsuit waiting to happen. What if it runs over someone's foot or some shit? You know what I mean? It's all backwards, but So

Speaker 1 (01:12:48):

You're not a fan of Marty?

Speaker 4 (01:12:49):

No, but I see him all the time. I go to the grocery store all the time. Sounds like you need to try Instacart. I do. I go to Giant to get my flavored seltzer water. I'm on that whole thing now.

Speaker 1 (01:13:04):

That's good.

Speaker 4 (01:13:04):

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:13:05):

Sparkling water's the best.

Speaker 4 (01:13:06):

I'm really down with that shit. Should get

Speaker 1 (01:13:08):

A laqua.

Speaker 4 (01:13:09):

Yeah. Yes. You like that shit, grapefruit all? Yeah, I'm down with it. I've never actually, we call it, we call it spicy

Speaker 1 (01:13:15):

Water. That's like the worst of the sparkling water. I

Speaker 4 (01:13:17):

Know.

Speaker 1 (01:13:18):

It's like the Paps blue ribbon.

Speaker 4 (01:13:20):

How do you feel about

Speaker 3 (01:13:20):

Perrier

Speaker 1 (01:13:22):

In a glass bottle? It's awesome. Yeah. I'm not crazy about the sparkling water snob. Plastic bottle is a little weird, I think because it just doesn't stay the right temperature long enough. Sparkling water gets really weird. The moment it starts to get warm, it almost undrinkable.

Speaker 5 (01:13:45):

So

Speaker 1 (01:13:45):

The glass bottle keeps it colder and therefore better. But something about LaCroix or whatever, I definitely think it's like the Pepsi

Speaker 4 (01:13:55):

Water. Oh, it absolutely is. It's just there and it's cheap. So being that you're a sparkling water snob, does that mean that while you were touring, you loved touring in Europe because everything?

Speaker 1 (01:14:08):

No. No. Because the thing is in Europe, they like shit room temperature. And there's nothing worse than being on stage in a club that has eight foot ceilings in the summer. Hell, and you're dying and you see water on stage and you reach over

Speaker 3 (01:14:23):

Warm sparkling, warm spicy

Speaker 1 (01:14:25):

Water. Warm sparkling water when you're not expecting it.

Speaker 3 (01:14:27):

Yep.

Speaker 1 (01:14:28):

Oof. It's

Speaker 4 (01:14:29):

Good shit, dude. You might as well drink a cup of piss.

Speaker 1 (01:14:31):

Yeah, yeah. Maybe. Yeah. Healthier or something.

Speaker 4 (01:14:35):

It's a hot issue. Tastes better. Sure. The spicy water debacle when we toured over there recently with Arch Byre and revocation, and there was a pretty clear division between the bands on spicy water. So

Speaker 1 (01:14:48):

The thing is, spicy water in a can is kind of gross. I think it's got to be in a glass bottle and it's got to be fucking cold. Those are two. The carbonation also makes a really big difference. And some of these companies, they put these weird artificial flavors in them that just have a weird aftertaste. I don't know.

Speaker 4 (01:15:09):

You're giving me a complex, I'm going to be thinking about all

Speaker 1 (01:15:11):

This shit. V sparkling. Try that.

Speaker 4 (01:15:13):

Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:15:13):

That's the good shit.

Speaker 4 (01:15:15):

I'll one that form with a real artsy bottle, right?

Speaker 1 (01:15:17):

Yeah, it's pretty artsy. It's great though.

Speaker 4 (01:15:20):

I'll ask Marty where it's at. He, I'm

Speaker 1 (01:15:21):

Not spicy water. There's still water comes in a plastic bottle. You can find a gas station. It's not so good,

Speaker 4 (01:15:27):

But

Speaker 1 (01:15:29):

The black cap.

Speaker 3 (01:15:31):

Okay,

Speaker 1 (01:15:31):

A glass sparkling box. It's like a

Speaker 3 (01:15:33):

Single cylinder type thing. Yeah, I've seen, I'll check it

Speaker 1 (01:15:36):

Out.

Speaker 3 (01:15:36):

I'm intrigued.

Speaker 1 (01:15:37):

Speaking of robots, I was in a hotel recently in la. I forgot my toiletries somewhere, and I called the front desk to ask if they had some, and they were like, we'll send some right up.

Speaker 3 (01:15:48):

They sent a robot?

Speaker 1 (01:15:49):

Yeah. I got a phone call and it was a robot talking to me saying, I'm at your door. That's terrify. And I opened it and the robot was at the door with my stuff.

Speaker 4 (01:16:00):

That's

Speaker 1 (01:16:01):

Kind of cool.

Speaker 4 (01:16:02):

That is cool.

Speaker 1 (01:16:03):

I posted a picture of it.

Speaker 4 (01:16:05):

I think I saw that. It looked a lot friendlier than Marty. Marty just looks

Speaker 1 (01:16:08):

Friendly growing my shit. Fucking monster. But yeah,

Speaker 4 (01:16:11):

It wasn't like a little round, cute thing or

Speaker 1 (01:16:14):

It was like a trash can with wheels.

Speaker 4 (01:16:16):

Okay. That anything is better than Marty the fucking monolith. It's fucked up. I'm going to show you guys a picture of it later.

Speaker 1 (01:16:25):

So let's talk about mixing for a second.

Speaker 4 (01:16:29):

All right.

Speaker 1 (01:16:31):

Sorry. Really? I want to talk about saxophone. Oh God.

Speaker 3 (01:16:35):

I want to talk about saxophone too.

Speaker 1 (01:16:36):

Yeah. So why? Well,

Speaker 4 (01:16:40):

What would you do if you ran out of ideas?

Speaker 1 (01:16:42):

Not saxophone. I mean, you guys just pull it off. It works though. I'll give you that. Yeah, I was telling him that that's my most hated instrument. I fucking hate saxophone. And it could be trauma from going to Berkeley, but did you

Speaker 3 (01:16:59):

Play a saxophone?

Speaker 1 (01:17:00):

No. Oh, of course not. But of course I just hate.

Speaker 3 (01:17:04):

Did a saxophone hurt you al?

Speaker 1 (01:17:06):

No. Where did the saxophone touch you? I don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:17:09):

Sax offender. Point on the doll sax offender.

Speaker 1 (01:17:13):

It's pretty good. It was so bad. It was so bad. I blocked it out, but

Speaker 4 (01:17:17):

Good.

Speaker 1 (01:17:17):

But yeah, I don't know. You guys do it all right though.

Speaker 4 (01:17:20):

Thanks.

Speaker 1 (01:17:21):

Yeah,

Speaker 4 (01:17:21):

I don't do it.

Speaker 1 (01:17:23):

But why

Speaker 4 (01:17:24):

Man?

Speaker 1 (01:17:25):

Why?

Speaker 4 (01:17:25):

I mean because it's sick. Yeah, I guess. But what other reasons?

Speaker 1 (01:17:30):

But it's not a sick instrument.

Speaker 3 (01:17:32):

I could

Speaker 4 (01:17:32):

Sick on their shit though. I grew up listening to a lot of music that had it on there, and to me it just always sounded like something that belonged in music. I listened to a lot of my dad, my dad's 66, so he grew up in the golden age of progressive rock. So my start in music was with King Crimson and Pink Floyd and Yes, and all those bands and all those bands utilized the saxophone pretty extensively. And it just always sounded

Speaker 1 (01:18:03):

Pink Floyd did it all right.

Speaker 4 (01:18:04):

Yeah. Pink Floyd, David Bowie, he used it quite a bit as well. I dunno, it always sounded like it belonged in music to me. And I actually played the saxophone for a while. Obviously didn't

Speaker 1 (01:18:17):

Stick. I stick. I liked you up until today. Yeah, right. I'm

Speaker 4 (01:18:20):

Going to need a picture of that. I don't know if there are any picture. Does Jake played the saxophone too?

Speaker 3 (01:18:24):

Really?

Speaker 4 (01:18:25):

Yeah. Wow. He played like the baritone sax.

Speaker 3 (01:18:28):

I want a picture of you guys playing sax together.

Speaker 4 (01:18:31):

There's a picture of Jake with a saxophone and with leg braces. He used to have a spinal thing

Speaker 3 (01:18:39):

For Gump.

Speaker 4 (01:18:40):

Hell yeah. Wow, dude. Yeah, absolutely. Very sick. And there's a picture of that that does exist, so I'll have to dig that

Speaker 3 (01:18:46):

Up. I'm going to have to see that one

Speaker 4 (01:18:48):

For sure. I'll ask him for it. He's got a saxophone in the picture. Pretty sure. Yeah. He's holding it smiling

Speaker 3 (01:18:54):

For gum. The fucking saxophone.

Speaker 4 (01:18:56):

Oh man.

Speaker 3 (01:18:57):

With a lisp.

Speaker 4 (01:18:59):

That is what, he's never going to watch this, so it's okay that we're talking about this. I

Speaker 3 (01:19:04):

Love him. Love his

Speaker 4 (01:19:05):

Lisp. Yeah. I don't know. It was always an instrument that I enjoyed. And I recorded a local death metal band from our area many years ago, and the bass player in that band, or the guitar player in that band, Zach Strauss, he was going to Westchester University for jazz performance. And he was a saxophone player. That was his primary instrument. And he was casually just more or less as a joke, he's like, Hey man, hit me up if you ever want me to throw some sacks on a Rivers song or whatever. So I was writing these songs for Wheres Know My name, and just had these big open sections where I was like, well, I guess I can play a really long guitar soul that nobody wants to hear, or we could try something else. So I kind of just sent him what became our song called The Silent Life, and I was like, see what you can do with it. And he sent it back a couple days later, and that's what basically ended up on the record and kind of just rolled with it from there. We kind of wanted to make the sax work with the material, not when it pops up like, oh, there's the saxophone part, which I hate.

Speaker 3 (01:20:25):

Here's a funny thing that happens in the song.

Speaker 4 (01:20:27):

I hate quirky shit like that, especially when death metal bands do it. Just silly shit for the sake of being there.

Speaker 1 (01:20:35):

It's not like that with you guys. And if it was, I would've been really weird about having it on.

Speaker 4 (01:20:41):

Yeah,

Speaker 1 (01:20:41):

But it's not like that. You guys pull it off.

Speaker 3 (01:20:43):

It fuels

Speaker 1 (01:20:43):

Appropriate for the song. Yeah,

Speaker 4 (01:20:44):

Totally. Yeah. I mean, Zach is easily the most talented musician that played on our record. I mean, all the stuff that ended up on the album. We stuck a Royer 1 21 in front of his sax and he did all that shit in one take. He's sick and yeah, I don't know, we just wanted to make sure that the record or that the sax parts didn't sound forced. There were a few parts that we threw out just because they sounded too abrupt or whatever. But yeah, I don't know. I guess it was an accident that Sacks ended up on the record. I just happened to meet Zach at the right time when I was writing the record and he ended up on the album and I've just kind of always liked the sax and now I hate the saxophone because it's ruined my life for the last year.

Speaker 5 (01:21:36):

How are you in that band with the saxophone, right?

Speaker 4 (01:21:38):

Not actually, but it's funny, Finn McKenty posted something yesterday about putting a bunch of bands in band prison about changing their sound or something. And I commented on it and I was like, you got any room for dumb asses that put saxophone on their death metal records in there in this band prison? And someone commented on it was like, are you talking about Rivers of Nile? And I was like, yeah, fuck those guys. And the dude never caught on so stupid how they put a sax on their record. But yeah, I mean definitely we've become known as the saxophone band I guess. So here we are. Here

Speaker 1 (01:22:17):

We are. What about mixing wise? How did you, I mean, I know we're going to talk about it on Nail the mix, but conceptually mix wise, I feel like sometimes adding acoustic instruments on music that can go really weird, they can just sound really out of place. How did you approach getting it to not stick out?

Speaker 3 (01:22:46):

From a technical mix perspective? It's nothing really that special. I think it's just some EQ and might might've compressed a little bit and there's some delay in verb, but pretty much

Speaker 2 (01:22:57):

How you would treat a vocal.

Speaker 3 (01:22:59):

Yeah, kind of. I mean, honestly for me it's more just the context of what is

Speaker 1 (01:23:04):

Doing. So it's a good arrangement,

Speaker 3 (01:23:05):

It's a great arrangement, a great song. It's appropriate for the moment. It happens in the song and on the other songs that it happens in, on the album. It's just a well-written piece of music, so it's not hard to make sound good in a mix.

Speaker 1 (01:23:19):

I guess that's usually what the problem is when people start throwing in acoustic instruments on this stuff is it's not well written,

Speaker 3 (01:23:28):

It's not thought through enough

Speaker 1 (01:23:29):

And so it not fully cooked ends up sounding weird.

Speaker 3 (01:23:31):

S the San Australia.

Speaker 1 (01:23:32):

Yes, undercooked for sure. Well, I think this is a good time to stop this. I want to thank you guys for coming on the URM podcast. Thanks

Speaker 3 (01:23:40):

For having us having,

Speaker 1 (01:23:41):

It's been a pleasure talking to you and blah, blah, blah. It's been fun.

Speaker 3 (01:23:47):

Very much.

Speaker 1 (01:23:48):

Thank you. Yeah, it was a great time. Thanks so

Speaker 3 (01:23:49):

Much dude.