ZACH JONES: His No-Template Workflow, Beating Creative Burnout, and the Death of the Rock Radio Single

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

Welcome to the URM Podcast. It has been a while and we're back. And if you've been watching or actually listening for a long time, you'll notice that Joel's back with me. Joel's going to be co-hosting again, kind of back to where we started. We started 10 years ago and we've gone full circle. Welcome back Mr. Wanasek.

Speaker 2 (00:00:26):

It's really been that long, huh?

Speaker 1 (00:00:28):

Yeah, it has really been. That long.

Speaker 2 (00:00:31):

Feels like two or three years, but I mean, I'll take it. 10. Here we are.

Speaker 1 (00:00:34):

2014, baby.

Speaker 2 (00:00:37):

Good to be back. I missed podcasting and I think we're going to have fun.

Speaker 1 (00:00:42):

Yeah, for sure. So let's just get right into it. I mean, if you listen to this podcast, you know who Joel is. So no need for us to go nuts with an introduction. Our first guest is actually a returning guest. His name is Zach Jones. He's worked with several artists like Fever 3 33, plain White Tees, Phil Maya, Chelsea Grin, scene Queen. I mean, this goes on and he's somebody that I have been watching just grow their career in real time, which I always think is fascinating because it is one thing when we talk to people who are super established or people who are at the very, very beginning. But to me, the most interesting thing is every time you talk to somebody, they're way further along and you're basically watching their star rise. And I think it's interesting to hear how they deal with it and what decisions they're making, what choices they're making, and how they're not messing up mentally, basically. So without further ado, let's get into it. Zach, welcome back to the URM Podcast.

Speaker 3 (00:01:57):

Thank you for having me again.

Speaker 1 (00:02:00):

Yeah, it seems like things have changed a bit since the last time you were on an upward trajectory. Last time we spoke. Remember talking to you about that, and you were talking a lot about things you wanted to do and your mindset, but it seems as though the trajectory has kind of remained exactly like it was before and things have just gotten better and better and you're doing cooler and cooler things and it's awesome. Congrats.

Speaker 3 (00:02:34):

Thank you. No, I appreciate it. Yeah, it's been a crazy, when did we, was it last year or the year before? I think it was the year before. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like coming out of quarantine and all that, it was just,

Speaker 1 (00:02:50):

Oh, hold on. Just for people watching and listening right now is June, 2024. Yes. So people are aware. Yes. So we spoke in 22.

Speaker 3 (00:03:00):

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, coming out of quarantine and all that, it was just like, I mean, I did a lot of, just with all that downtime, I ended up producing a lot of records remotely during that time and then coming out of it, I dunno what happened, but it was just a steady, it just keeps getting crazier. And I think last time I was like, oh yeah, I'm taking weekends off just so I can come back fresh on Monday. But that's gone back the other way to working on weekends again, which has been great. It's just I've gotten to a place where I'm working on everything I'm doing right now is stuff I genuinely love and want to do. So I want to work on the weekend now

Speaker 1 (00:03:50):

You've got to ride that. I think it's funny, the thing, and I think we said this last time too, getting to a point in your career where you can take weekends, that is a victory because early in your career you can't take weekends. You can't say no to anything. So when you actually get to the point where you can have a schedule that you dictate, that means you have reached a certain level. However past that level, it goes back to not being able to take weekends. So you're right back. Yeah. It's like that's the truth, right? It's kind like doing free work, I've noticed is at the beginning you should do free work just to do work. Then there comes a point where you should not do any free work, but then comes a point where there's some opportunities where they will not even entertain hiring you until you do a test or something. Or you get asked to do a favor for somebody that you really should be doing a favor for. So I feel like there's some things like weekends and free work that come full circle.

Speaker 3 (00:04:56):

Oh, for sure. Yeah. I feel like I hit this point where I was like, yo, the work was stacking up and I was like, the weekend is supposed to relax me and make me just not think about work and come back Monday refreshed. But all I'm thinking about is how much stuff I have to do once I come back. So I'm like, okay, well maybe if I just start working a little bit on the weekend. So I would start doing some mixing and stuff and then got to the point where I was like, okay, well now I want to start doing sessions again because it's either say no to have the day off or do it, and then it always ends up leading to other stuff. So yeah, I've just fully swung back the other way, but I mean, I don't know. Yeah, it feels better to me. Just also staying in the flow I've noticed helps. I feel like once I stop, it takes me, it feels like it takes longer to get the momentum going again, but if I just keep it steady that I never deal with that it feels like. So I dunno if that makes sense, but

Speaker 1 (00:06:10):

Absolutely. Well, inertia is a very real thing. And also I think that this idea that if you're valuable, people will wait for you is true to an extent, true to an extent, but if you're working with people who also have very tight deadlines and also have a lot on the line and are very valuable clients, well you got to think about if you really want to say no to them because they might not be able to wait. There is some truth that if you say that you define your boundaries and you say, okay, I don't work these days, I only work these days. Most people would be cool about that or I'm not available at this point in time. We're going to have to book later. A lot of people will be cool with that, but then there are a bunch of people who might really not want to lose as clients, who will not be cool with that. And you got to make the choice. Yes,

Speaker 2 (00:07:13):

Exactly. I mean, I'll give you an example, Al, there was some of the best cuts I've gotten were literally like, it's three o'clock on a Friday and you get a call and it's like, Hey, I need a mix on this in the next and so hours. The other two people we wanted to hire aren't available. Can you do this? Yes or no? The files are in your inbox and you're already working on it. So unless you're willing to be that person, sometimes you will miss opportunities.

Speaker 1 (00:07:38):

Joel, when I first met you, you were a weekends, no weekends, no past five kind of person, and you're one of the most disciplined, regimented people I've ever met. So that's a major compliment to you. But I have noticed that since you've gone hardcore on the mixing in the past two years, that no longer replies, you're in here. So we're in the same building, so you're the only person besides me that I've noticed will be here till 11 or midnight. Or you're here on weekends, you get here early in the morning on weekends. There is no day that there's no assumed day that you won't be here. And I know you have to do family stuff sometimes in real life, but I have noticed that since you went hardcore with the mixing, anything goes,

Speaker 2 (00:08:37):

It's true. It's brutal. I have no life work balance right now, but hey, it's by choice.

Speaker 1 (00:08:45):

Yeah, I think that's a myth. Work life balance.

Speaker 3 (00:08:49):

Oh yeah. I just had my first kid and I'm like, I don't know how congrat, congratulations.

Speaker 2 (00:08:57):

You don't have three.

Speaker 3 (00:08:59):

I'm kidding.

(00:09:03):

Yeah, leading up to it, he was born in February and leading up to it, I was like, I don't know where this is going to go. Am I going to want to take on less? Am I going to want to take on more? Am I going to stay the same and just have to be more decisive with and just strict with my time and schedule and I'm working more than I ever have. I dunno. It definitely puts this drive into you. You're like, yeah, a hundred percent you immediately. Well, it's crazy. I feel like I have more hours in the day because I've totally cut out anything that isn't work or him. So it's like, man, I have all this time to do all these things, but none of it's a waste of time. So I don't know, it's been really crazy. I mean, I'm four months into it right now, so I know it's going to

Speaker 2 (00:10:03):

You getting any sleep

Speaker 3 (00:10:04):

Be changing surprisingly, yeah. Is been, I guarantee my wife has a very different experience, but

Speaker 2 (00:10:16):

I've got three kids and I banged them all out back to back. And I'll tell you this, unless you have children, you don't understand this, but if you do, there is a certain level of focus of productivity that having a kid does because something just turns on in your brain and you're like, okay, I am responsible not just for me,

Speaker 3 (00:10:33):

But

Speaker 2 (00:10:34):

Somebody else. And some people are like, oh, if you're married and you have kids, or even not married and have kids, but if you have a child, your time is, it's totally the opposite of what people think it is. You actually are way more productive in the given time because you have to be or else you don't see your kid. So you really learn how to focus.

Speaker 1 (00:10:55):

Your doesn't eat or your kid doesn't eat. Exactly.

Speaker 2 (00:10:59):

It's like steroids for productivity really.

Speaker 1 (00:11:02):

I don't have kids and I've never wanted them ever. I still don't. But I have noticed, the thing I have thought about is that I think doing stuff for myself is very tough. To get motivated. That is tough. I have to stop thinking that it's pointless. I have to go through this whole thing to forget how pointless my own life is and how worthless my life is. And I was thinking, if I have a kid, then my own feelings about myself and what a piece of shit I am don't matter because I'm doing it in the service of keeping this other being alive. And so for that reason alone, it seems like it's a good idea, but I hate kids. So that's the problem. You're not wrong. I know it's

Speaker 2 (00:11:55):

The most difficult thing anyone will ever do. But that being said, you do have those moments. Seeing your kids score, their first soccer goal when they started off as the worst person on the team, you're like, that's better than anything else you'll ever achieve. It's better than any award or any client you'll land or any hit you ever. You know what I mean? It

Speaker 1 (00:12:12):

Really

Speaker 2 (00:12:12):

Is.

Speaker 1 (00:12:13):

I don't know what you mean.

Speaker 2 (00:12:17):

Nope. Someday, no, maybe. I dunno. Maybe

Speaker 1 (00:12:22):

That's No, I hear that a lot from parents. And I will say this, as a non-parent, I will never say that having a dog is the same thing. It annoys me. It annoys me, dude. It annoys me so much when non-parents will equate, look, and I love dogs. I really do. I love my last dog, love the current dog, love them family members, but it annoys me. It's a pet peeve when dog parents who don't have real human kids act as if it's the same thing. Oh,

Speaker 3 (00:13:02):

It's wild.

Speaker 1 (00:13:03):

Yeah, it's crazy.

Speaker 3 (00:13:07):

My dog, my dog does that. I'm like, what? So weird.

Speaker 1 (00:13:14):

Yeah, it's a very, I know that we're probably pissing off a bunch of people right now with me saying, that'll get over. Yeah, you'll get over it. Go have a kid. So that said, let's talk about some audio stuff.

Speaker 3 (00:13:32):

Yes.

Speaker 1 (00:13:32):

Yeah, let's talk about some audio stuff.

(00:13:35):

One thing is you do a lot of work all the time and you apparently don't use templates, which is the word on the street. It's not the word on the street. That's what you told our pre interviewer. But you don't use templates. You start from scratch every time. And I want to dig into that because that's a lot of extra work. So I kind of want to know, well first of all, how you define a template, because there's a wide range of what people consider templates. Some people consider a template to be everything. Everything. It's a mix where you just tweak a few things and then other people just consider it to be like, oh, the routing is all there and the things that I do the same way every time is there, but only that. And there's a spectrum there. So first of all, how do you define it?

Speaker 3 (00:14:47):

So I guess, well, easiest way would be, so each session I'll queue up a logic session and it's just got one track in it. I'll just open up just a blank session. And then the most I'll pull up recall something is I'll have, if I'm doing midi drums just for whatever, I have multiple different jump off points for a kit just so I don't have to go through and pull all that. I have this kit, this kit, this kit. But that immediately changes once the session gets going, everything else is totally blank. I don't even have anything routed. I'll bust everything and route everything as I'm going too. Just always, I try doing the full template thing or even some routing or just some preset sounds or whatever there, and it felt like it took me longer. This might sound crazy, it took me longer to get where I wanted to go. It felt like I was trying to squeeze something into a mold that it didn't fit into so I can immediately get where I'm wanting to go quicker by just not having that and just having enough total blank canvas in front of me. It's just always worked that way for me.

(00:16:25):

And I think with producing lots of different genres, it's made me get very quick at being able to make sounds and produce things out accurately as quickly as possible. So it's something I've worked on ever since I moved to la. I was like, okay, I feel like I've tried it this way. I've tried it this way. This seems to be the best route for my workflow and I've just tried to perfect it. But yeah, so I don't know. Yeah, I have a lot of people think it's insane to not have, it's so wild. You're

Speaker 2 (00:17:07):

Breaking my brain right now.

Speaker 3 (00:17:09):

I'll do the same thing with a mix, which is also I've realized very crazy, but I've gotten so quick at it, I don't think about it. I think I know what I want to go grab for. And even if I know I'm going to put these plugins on a vocal, 90% of the time I'll still go pull 'em in one by one just because I need to know, I dunno. I need to know that each thing I'm adding is helping instead of having it all pop up and I'm like, okay, well which one is doing the thing I don't want? Or what's doing the heavy lifting here that I do? So yeah, I dunno. It's really weird, but that's the only way it's worked for me, I feel like to where I'm happy with the result at the end.

Speaker 2 (00:18:09):

How do you maintain consistency across, say, a tense track record where you're doing a band where everything sounds the same? So for example, they have the same kick drum sound and they recorded symbols in the same room and they've got the same guitar. When you're doing one of those bands that's not all over the place, how do you maintain consistency on Song five versus two?

Speaker 3 (00:18:28):

Well, I mean, so some of those, if there is an album like that, if it's a creative decision, if they're like, Hey, we want the drums the same the whole time. So I'll build whatever the first song is that we produce out and we get all the tones we want, then I'll fly over to the next session and the next one on one record if we want the drums to be consistent. So I mean, it usually really is just the drums that will always on an album that will remain 100% consistent because even guitars and bass, I'll do different amp tones on different songs and if we do recall one, it's always a creative choice, but we will always still try it, try it from scratch, minus whatever foundation instrument the band wants as an anchor. So we will find that on day one from scratch and then we will cross that over if needed.

(00:19:42):

But a lot of times, I don't know if you could see the room, so me and my partner, KJ struck, he used to work with Drew folk a lot, but we produce a lot together and we just do so much rapid production on the fly. So we'll just be like, that tone sounds cool, get it in there. And then we'll sit back and we'll listen. And if we feel like anything is inconsistent, then we will tighten it up or tweak things or EQ things to match something. Or if we do need to replace it with a previous sound, then we will. But we always kick it off totally from scratch to make sure that whatever happens, that day happens organically and is serving the song the best. And then we'll decide if we need to go back and pull something else in as a recall. So it's pretty crazy, some very weird workflow, but it's cool though. Yeah, that's the other things, because I work a lot and right now we're doing albums during the day, so we, I'll mix from 9:00 AM till noon usually, and then I'll do whatever my main album is from one to seven typically.

(00:21:12):

Usually the block of time I've noticed where around seven everyone's kind of checking out, making poor decisions on the song. So it's usually a good time to close it down and then we'll take an hour break, go get dinner, and then right now we're doing albums, an album during the day and then we're doing an artist that I've been working with for a minute. I was like, Hey, I really want you to do the album, but it's got to be done by the end of June and this was two weeks ago. He's like, how can we get it done? I was like, alright, if you're cool with doing it at night, we can do that. So we've been producing two records this entire month, but we do everything that way. It also just keeps from getting burnt out. You're constantly stimulated and hearing new things and we're routing things up differently. There's so many synths and effects and just random stuff in here that we're always hooking up in different chains. I feel like the amount of workload we have and the different styles of music that we work on, the only way I think we can get it done accurately and enjoy doing it is by doing it from scratch each time. It just feels, yeah, nothing feels redundant ever.

Speaker 1 (00:22:41):

That's a key detail actually what you just said, the key detail for anyone listening who is trying to figure out the technical side of how this possibly works, key detail you said was and enjoy it at the same time. I just needed to point that out because we all know, and I'm sure we've all been there at times, producers mixers who do not enjoy it and get very, very burned out, get very negative and bitter about this awesome job they have. And I've noticed that a lot of the time it comes from people who I know that do the exact same thing every single time. So they feel like it's a factory basically. And you get this feeling of this is not what I signed up for doing the same thing every single fucking day of my life.

Speaker 2 (00:23:40):

It's a lot of pressure too to do that. It's incredible if something is successful commercially, it's like then you have 10 people calling you saying, Hey, we need that again, but under this template and that, and it self reinforces itself as it becomes a trend and it's hard to reinvent yourself. It's really, really, really, I mean I know a lot of mixers that complain about this.

Speaker 3 (00:24:01):

Yeah, I think that's another one of my, just long-term thinking. I have a fear of getting too comfortable. I've seen it happen so many times where I'll do a session with at another studio with someone else running the computer or whatever and it's like, or just other friends of mine that are like, man, I feel like I'm just stuck doing it like this. And it worked for a while, but now the thing that was fresh and cool two, three years ago isn't acceptable. Now if they're doing a session and the artist's like, well, no, we did that back then we need to do something new. And they're like, well, that's how I do it though. So I'm like, that's always a fear of mine is getting stuck into that. So I'm like, I think just constantly working that muscle of, and it is cool. I feel like you have to retain some of that feeling when you first got started where you're like, I can't believe I did that.

(00:25:14):

You hear the first time you hear a mix or a song that you did and you're like, I can't believe I got that sound that I've been trying to do. So the amount of times I get to still experience that feeling is actually crazy. It went away for a bit when I was trying to just crank things out in more of a factory setting. I was like, man, I just feel like I'm just, nothing felt exciting, nothing new was happening. I'm hearing the same drum sounds, the same guitar sounds every day. So I'm like, what's there to get excited about? And then started changing it up and then it's like now after the session, KJ and I, we'll just want to talk about what we did and how excited we are that we achieved this sound or did this thing. So it's really been a game changer for just there's constantly a fire lit, I guess we're just always totally into what we're doing and just obsessive over it.

Speaker 1 (00:26:25):

I think that it's key with any creative field. It's the same for me with guitar. I've noticed that before I took a break from guitar, this used to happen. Then after I came back to it, this also would happen and I figured out exactly what to do about it, which is you get into these routines, these practice routines that are effective and they just become the habit and you just do things. You do X amount of time of this one technique and then this other one and that's your shit. But if you do that over and over and over for months and months and months, you will plateau mentally because that level of mental engagement that you had at the beginning when you were first adopting those techniques is no longer there. You're just kind of going through the motions and you'll get incrementally better, but you're not going to have that fuck yeah light bulb moment. So having to, whenever I notice that I'm starting to get to that point, I will do something to raise the bar or to make myself uncomfortable. And then I get that feeling that you're talking about that same feeling from back in the old days when things were new.

(00:27:47):

It's a myth that you don't feel that anymore. If you've been in something for a while, you just have to try. You get to make a conscious effort to reach it.

Speaker 3 (00:27:56):

Yeah, it really is like anyone that I know and everybody, because it's not always great, everyone has moments. I mean, I still have moments where I'm just not feeling it today. That's totally normal, of

Speaker 1 (00:28:11):

Course.

Speaker 3 (00:28:12):

Or you have days where nothing sounds good to you, but then you go back and listen to what you did a week later you're like, why was I tripping over that? It sounds great, or it's just weird. It's all perspective and stuff. But yeah, I feel like a lot of the people I know that are like, ah, ah, man, it's just, yeah, it's just work now. It's music. It shouldn't feel like work all the time. It should mostly feel creative. There's a lot of hard work and stuff, but I think when you start to feel like you're clocking in for a nine to five in the sense of you're like, just get me through this one. I feel like that's when you know that something's got to change. I've seen that a lot. I started to get to that point probably last year. I was like, man, I got to figure this out. That is not a good feeling to be doing something. We're all very lucky to be doing this and being able to live off of it. And I'm like, so to get to the point where I'm acting like I'm walking into just some whatever bullshit job I'm like is crazy. So I was like, what's wrong here? And I was like, oh, I'm just bored. I'm trying to do the same thing every day and expecting a different result and it's just not ever going to happen.

(00:29:51):

You ever find that

Speaker 2 (00:29:52):

When you're mixing, for example, the same thing we're talking about, I'll give an example. So one of the hardest, because all I do is mix, one of the hardest things I run into is when I get a 12 song record and they've gone throughout to every writing team in the city in LA and Nashville, and you've got 12 different songs that were written by 12 different groups of people all trying to be singles. And then you get the same song structure. The only thing that's different is the riff, the versus song, the verse saw, the production changes in terms of how many synths. The hook is a little bit different, but it's the same song 12 times. And you're sitting there when you're mixing and you're like, okay, on song three, this is dope. And by the time you hit song seven, you're like, I really need to steer varying it up. So what I do is I try to change up my drum sounds and

Speaker 3 (00:30:35):

Intentionally

Speaker 2 (00:30:36):

Force different things on different sounds.

Speaker 3 (00:30:39):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:30:39):

So how do you do that when you're mixing and handle that type of challenge?

Speaker 3 (00:30:44):

I think I like that where it's like if I'm feeling there's this one record I'm mixing right now, and I'm like, okay, the first couple songs I'm like, okay, this feels cool. And then it started getting to a point where there was certain songs where I was like, well, I don't like this remaining the same. Kind of going back to what we were talking about where I'm like, so I was like, okay, well, I was like, Hey, are you guys cool? It's not going to sound like it doesn't belong on the record, but I want this song to be served a little differently. Are you okay with that? They're like, yeah, let's hear it. Did it? They're like, yeah, okay, that's cool. So I think just knowing, and I think when I notice that it's also because if it feels like, say if you're crossing over sounds on a mix to multiple songs, it feels right then my brain isn't going to start.

(00:31:44):

You're still going to feel that reward of that feels great. That feels right. So I think the moment that it doesn't click, you're like, okay, well maybe this song this needs to change, or what is it that I don't like on this? I think in this scenario it was like the guitars on a song. I was like, I think just with the tuning changing, I was like, okay, well now this amp doesn't sound good to me anymore, so let's try something else. And the snare drum, I also don't maybe want that really wide radio rock snare. Maybe I want a smaller just snare that's just a little more distinct or has a little bit of a weird character to it. So that's kind of the route I went with that in this scenario. But yeah, I think in that sense, I'll go, once it starts feeling wrong is when I'll change it. So if it is one of those bands where they want it as consistent as possible, I'll cross over what I think makes sense to cross over. But the moment it starts feeling wrong, that's when I'll pivot the other way I guess.

Speaker 1 (00:32:56):

So it's never autopilot?

Speaker 3 (00:32:58):

No. Yeah, no, because I, yeah, it's also I feel like I'm so OCD that if I'm just pasting things in, I don't know, it's, it just feels like I skipped a step and I can't get past that in-between of nothing on the files to everything on the files in a split second. I'm like, well, how did we get here? So I'm like, I have to kind of put my hands on everything one at a time, I think each time to know that it's right. And I've also noticed, I think I actually had this conversation with Cameron, well anyone listening, I guess we were talking about our friend Cameron Al Massey earlier. He was asking about the consistency thing and I was like, it's funny that I've noticed even if you could not do not use any of the same sounds for any of the songs, but I think your ear and the way you EQ things and your taste for leveling, it all kind of ends up in a similar ballpark.

(00:34:24):

I've noticed it really because I've had bands where, are you sure this is going to all work? I'm like, yeah, it will. And they're like, oh wow, okay. Yeah, you still treat, your filter is still over everything. So I know I always hate these frequencies and guitars, so those are not going to be in any of the songs, going to remove those from existence. And then I like the kick drum usually at this volume. So there's just these things that you just as a human are going to do and that's your taste. And I think that's also, that's why people are coming to you. So I think that it makes its way into the song each time more than you think it would. That's what I've noticed, I guess. So yeah, the consistency thing hasn't really ever been a thing where I'm like, oh man, this is way off from the last one. But

Speaker 1 (00:35:31):

Even on records where on the first Slipknot, one of the songs I think Spit it out, not sure if it spit it out maybe, I dunno. One of the songs was actually from the demo. It wasn't part of the Ross Robinson recording. I didn't know that until Ronnie Connor there, a and r guy told me, and I had listened to that record for a long time. I mean that record was in super heavy rotation in my life when it came out. And I never noticed that there was a song that it was a completely different recording. It was the demo, there's a demo on that record and I would've never known if I hadn't been told

Speaker 3 (00:36:23):

No. Isn't that crazy? And if you go and listen to it, it's like the guitars are, there's this phase issue on them that you can hear, but it sounds so cool, this part of it. And I feel like those are the things you can't recreate. But not once are you, that's weird that that's on the album. That's just that song. Now all of a sudden this song raises its hand as i's a huge song on that record and it's probably, it does sound different, but you're not going to be like, oh, that doesn't belong on there. So really it is crazy when you get into the full context of a record, and I feel like your brain does, when there is a change in something, it does kind of reengage, pulls you back in. Because I feel like if it's so consistent, that's kind of when it turns into one of those albums where, and it's not wrong by any means because plenty of albums out there where it's very consistent and it sounds amazing and it's engaging the whole time.

(00:37:32):

But I've noticed certain there are albums out there, I've noticed personally that if it's so consistent, it's kind of one of those albums where you just put it on in the car and it slowly turns into background noise. It doesn't feel you're not really getting engaged, it's not pulling you, there's no push and pull. So that's another thing. If there's something that jumps out on a song, all of a sudden you're going to be like, you're going to want to turn the volume back up or whatever. So I think it is important to have a few inconsistencies throughout that don't feel weird or off-put, but are just interesting.

Speaker 1 (00:38:15):

I have a theory that the reason that extreme metal is so limited in how big it can get, it's bigger than ever, but there's a limit if you go beyond the fact that people don't like the vocals or whatever, I think one of the main reasons that it has a hard time is because it all starts to sound like a giant wash. After a while the differentiation is gone. You can hear something super sick for a song or two, and then the next song's the same and then the next song's the same and then the next song's the same and then the next song's the same. It's like, alright,

Speaker 3 (00:38:59):

Yeah, it just turns into a static and it's like,

(00:39:03):

Yeah. So I think if you do just sneak in something like the snare drum being way different on a song or maybe the bass tone's really different or guitar, whatever it is, if there's something to break it up, then I think your listeners going to it could be the exact same song just with one little tweak and now all of a sudden it's different and exciting and isn't going to just turn into background noise on an album. I totally agree with that, Joel. Also, I thought it was interesting. It was something that I've noticed recently I about, I just thought it was really interesting. You've said almost exactly what I've said before in other conversations about you get an album to mix and it just feels like everyone made the same song. And this probably might be a hot take, but I think because there's definitely room for it, the big writing trips and you come to la, you go to Nashville, you hit all the writing rounds and stuff, but literally everybody, especially if you just take rock for instance, everyone's going to want to try to chase the Rock Octane single or whatever.

(00:40:33):

So it's like production intro, big riff, drop it down for the verse, maybe a pre chorus, rip up to the chorus tagline, big movie poster tagline at the end of the course

Speaker 2 (00:40:48):

Every day.

Speaker 3 (00:40:50):

And it's just like everybody just does the same thing. And that is a structure that people want to hear. Obviously it works. But I think that I've noticed the frustration it seems with fans recently. I think it's been so long of that, it just feels like people are wanting to go back to some traditional sense, all those nineties albums where it's like a band just locked in and made a dope album, half minute songs

Speaker 2 (00:41:27):

On the

Speaker 3 (00:41:28):

Radio and it's just, yeah, I mean it's crazy now. Songs got so just short and there's just such a formula now and it just feels like I'm like, is anyone, and I mean I'm guilty of it, I've made plenty of those songs. I'm not innocent by any means, but is it enjoyable still? Just, I don't know, there's just no room for, I feel like everybody just wants to keep making that. Or if you do get the session with this artist, it's

Speaker 2 (00:42:07):

A mix. What do you do? Because you can't change the production unless you want to die. I mean, half the producers, I mix for it. If you don't give them their reference exactly back with all of their levels and their chains and whatever, but better, they're like, Hey, I need you to make this just like the demo. And you're like, okay, well I just want to try this. So I mean, it's great that they know exactly what they want, but

Speaker 3 (00:42:28):

For sure

Speaker 2 (00:42:29):

As a mixer, you're locked into that decision-making tree that's happened from the producer and the artist. And of course they're getting pressured to chase the octane sound and

Speaker 3 (00:42:38):

Totally, yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:42:39):

And you're like, I want to be an artist as a mixer. I want to mix this song differently than the last six that I've done in this record. I dunno, I try as hard as I can to be as artsy as I can, but at the same time it's like,

Speaker 3 (00:42:52):

That's hard.

Speaker 2 (00:42:53):

There's so much downward pressure.

Speaker 3 (00:42:55):

I think there's going to be a shift. It just feels like fans aren't going to accept an album of that anymore. It feels, I've just noticed it and I know there's still going to be some, but I've just noticed that lots of fans are just like, alright, well here we go again. And I think that once the general public hits that level of what are we doing here, I think is when

Speaker 2 (00:43:25):

Hip hop three years ago versus now, right? Yeah. Everything was so cool. Now it's like, all right, if I see another watch or another car or hear about, it's so overdone to the point where it's like no one wants it.

Speaker 1 (00:43:38):

One. An interesting thing I've noticed on this subject, it's not the same situation, but just something interesting is, so on the riff hard side of things, we do this monthly writing competition called King of the Riff, where we'll give them a brief kind of like if you're writing for a show or for somebody or it has to be a certain way and there's criteria. So let's just say you got to write a hardcore song that's three minutes long, has whatever structure one month or a argent metal another month, or it's got to sound like the soundtrack to something a different month. Anyway, so it's a different genre, different brief, and we'll get a bunch of entries, much like nail the mix where you just get a bunch of entries and they're not allowed to share the entries with each other and king of the riff.

(00:44:32):

They're not allowed to post them or influence each other. I listen to these entries, man, and when you get past 50 where they all have the same riff in them or the same shotgun sample or the same synth line, it's pretty wild because how are they all coming up with the exact same thing? If you were listen to these, and these aren't writing teams in Nashville and LA all chasing hits. These are students who are trying to just get better at writing in a competition, but they are chasing after a genre, right in the brief.

(00:45:24):

And so you will have the exact same thing where you get the same song over and over and over and over and over again. And so I think that yes, there is an element when you get to the pro level of people are chasing hits and they see something that works. You see that in movies too. You see that in software. But I think there's something, it's a human thing too, because I'm seeing the exact same phenomenon at a student level too, because they are using the same exact chord progressions, the same notes, and riffs the same. It's crazy. I'm trying to understand how that happens. Where does it all come from to where they're all writing the same thing?

Speaker 3 (00:46:20):

I think it's a subconscious thing where, and I mean just say if there's a brief, they're like, okay, so something like this. And if all of the examples out there are all people at that level try to chase what they think, I feel like it just comes down to people chasing what they think the sound of success is and whatever genre it is. And there's these huge, huge in rock, it's the riff right now. I feel like it's the riff and then it's that tagline at the end of the hook. Those are the two things that people think are what success is in a song in this genre. And it's different if you go to rap or pop, there's these common threads. Some of it is just the staple of the genre, but some of it is just like, okay, well that worked really well for this artist and it worked a little bit for the one that did it after them and so on. But now we're getting to the point where people are like, oh my God, please do something else.

(00:47:36):

I think everyone I've noticed just in sessions, everyone is so scared to not do what is successful that I feel like people have forgotten how to just be weird and just make weird art. And that is always what sets the trend. So whoever has the balls to do that wins. And it could take forever. There's so many. I think also that's the other thing, everything's so instant. You go on social media, TikTok, whatever, you're just getting these quick dopamine rushes, just scrolling. Everything's just so immediate. You can DoorDash, you can have your favorite meal at your house within 20 minutes. Everything is immediate. So I feel like people treat art that way now, or they get into it wanting just the success and not any of the path that it takes to get there. But if you look at the lasting power, I think of some of the artists that existed before, how just crazy the internet and all that stuff is now, you're also drinking your own Kool-Aid back then because you're not in the studio session on Instagram being like, fuck, they just dropped this song.

(00:49:05):

Look at what they just did. And then all of a sudden that influences what you're doing. So I think, yeah, I feel like back in the day, people would just lock in. They'd go lock themselves in the studio, drink their own Kool-Aid, think what they're doing is the coolest thing in existence and make crazy art. And I feel like that's something that's gotten lost. And I think the people that still do that are the ones that are winning. And it might not work first, try second try. But I do believe repetition. And if you're doing something so strange that no one gets it the first round, try it again. If they don't get it the second round, try it again. If that's you as an artist, you shouldn't pivot off of that. Just do it again. And it does work. Anyone I've seen that makes you weirdest fucking music, they could be going on year 15 and then it finally clicks and they're absolutely massive. I'm like, if you love it and that's what you want to do, just do it and be willing to put in the time. But guarantee, once it hits that 10 years or whatever it took you all of a sudden isn't going to feel like it was that long.

(00:50:21):

I mean, we've all been doing this forever, and it's like you'll have that moment where you're like, oh shit, this is, it's like crazy stuff happening. I'm not like, but man, it took forever to get you. You are aware of that, but that moment feels so good and rewarding. You're not hung up on the shit you just went through to get there. No, that makes it better. Yeah. You're like, fuck yes.

Speaker 2 (00:50:47):

What's absolutely terrifying about this is professionally, you got a family to feed, right? I got a family to feed. And professionally, if you want to work and stay busy, sometimes you have to not be taking risks, but play in the box.

Speaker 3 (00:51:02):

But

Speaker 2 (00:51:02):

You also know deep down in your heart and soul that if you want to really be the next thing or be the next flavor of the month, mixer or producer or whatever, you have to find the next thing. But no one in the system wants to reward that they penalize you for it because it's, oh, that's different. So it's really frustrating. I mean, for example, that's why I went analog two and a half years ago and I bought

Speaker 3 (00:51:27):

A console

Speaker 2 (00:51:28):

Love because I'm like, dude, everybody's going in one direction and it's all starting to sound the same, and I want to sound totally different than everybody else. Even if I'm playing in the same pool, going to say something.

Speaker 3 (00:51:38):

No, dude, I love that. We've just bought a bunch of outboard synths and just all sorts of stuff, and I was just like, it just needs to sound different than what everyone else is doing. But you came from a world in the box, so now you still have the modern, all those modern skills, but now you're bringing in this new flavor. And I think that's a winning formula. So no, I think that's great. I just feel like there needs to be more of that. But also I think it's really interesting that yeah, saying you get penalized if an artist is on album five, six, whatever, the label and them are going to be so scared unless something isn't working, they're going to want to just play it pretty safe. And maybe this record, the goal is to be a little bit better than the last one. Even if it's pretty much the same, they're not going to get roasted for it. But the ones I think, yeah, you saying you got to go find it. The things that I have gotten to do the craziest shit on, and even in the moment I'm like, I don't know if this is, I don't know what this is, but I've never heard this before. So let's see what happens. Scene Queen being a prime example.

(00:53:11):

And those are the things that are the most polarizing. That is people think that is. It's some people's least favorite thing they've ever heard, and it's other people's absolute favorite thing that they've ever heard, and that's where it should be. I'm not saying the middle ground is

Speaker 1 (00:53:28):

I agree.

Speaker 3 (00:53:29):

I have some

Speaker 1 (00:53:29):

Examples.

Speaker 3 (00:53:31):

Yeah, go

Speaker 1 (00:53:31):

Ahead. Some examples of why you're right and why people should be more fearless. Bring me the horizon. Probably the kings of their scene have never stopped taking risks. They do some stuff that as a successful band, they should be terrified of doing, yet they do it. Okay, sleep token, who would've thought, right? Bolivia, they're instrumental, like nerd music.

(00:54:01):

It's that mixed with hip hop and it's charting, and I could keep going down a list, but there are artists, whether you love 'em or hate 'em, that doesn't matter who are fearless. Those three artists are fearless and they are getting rewarded for it. I don't actually listen and I don't listen to any of 'em, but that doesn't matter. Nothing but respect. And I definitely admire the quality in what they do, but most of all the fearlessness and the fact that they have been able to carve out really, really big places for themselves without compromising, and it just goes to show that that is still a possibility that can happen. So the idea of being scared to do that, that's a choice. Now, I will say though, not everybody is capable of being a groundbreaking artist. So there is that too. There are some people who artistically their output is going to be like a Big Mac. That is what they do. They're not making Michelin meal worth of music. They're making fast food. And there's nothing wrong with that. No, that exactly what they do, but they're not going, you can't deviate from the formula of a Big Mac. And so I think also, I think it's important to just realize which artists we're talking about, because there are some artists who don't, they are not that person. Exactly. They are not going to do something insane. That also gets huge. They're going to give you a musical Big Mac, but people love Big Mac.

Speaker 3 (00:55:58):

Yeah, no, exactly. And obviously if it swung the other way where everyone was just making outlandish crazy shit, then people would want to be like, okay, cool. We got some of that normal stuff again. So there's always got to be a balance and

Speaker 2 (00:56:18):

Novelty versus familiarity.

Speaker 3 (00:56:20):

Yeah. So yeah, it's funny when you see the young artists that are like, well, I want to be that big, but they just are trying to do what that band does, but are not doing it anywhere close to as good, because they didn't invent that sound. So I'm like, you can chase that. They always playing

Speaker 2 (00:56:46):

Another person's game.

Speaker 3 (00:56:47):

Yeah. I'm like, what is it that you do though? And yeah, I think if you're just honest, any good artist and you are just in touch with what it is that you do, and if it is that Big Mac style thing and you do it very well, that's you as an artist and that's why it's working and why you're winning. If your thing is to be completely weird and just very hard to digest, but you have a rabid cult following that works as well. So I think it's just identifying who you are as a person, what your personality is. And I think I try to do a lot of that when I'm producing an album, trying to get to the bottom of an artist and how they view things. And it's like, I think not enough artists stop to really think about that. It does have to come naturally to you. You can't force someone else's persona onto yourself or try and mimic it. You can take inspiration, but I think the moment that you're having to try mimic everyone else's moves to a T, you're like, okay, well that's not you.

Speaker 1 (00:58:08):

Yeah, it doesn't work.

Speaker 3 (00:58:09):

Yeah. So yeah, I just think, yeah, it's just interesting to see just working with all these different artists and just the different outlooks and at all different stages in their careers. They could be just starting out. They could be on album two, they could be on album nine, and it's all over the board with what they're wanting to do, but what they're not willing to do to get there or vice versa. So it's really,

Speaker 1 (00:58:42):

It's minefield. So we're almost out of time, but want to talk about one last thing, you're down for some rapid fire questions.

Speaker 3 (00:58:54):

Yes.

Speaker 1 (00:58:55):

Alright. First thing that comes to mind. Well, that wasn't the question, but yeah, just tell us the first thing that comes to mind with these questions.

Speaker 2 (00:59:07):

Alright. Favorite compressor,

Speaker 1 (00:59:11):

Distressor.

Speaker 2 (00:59:13):

Okay. Sims or two amps

Speaker 3 (00:59:16):

Sims.

Speaker 2 (00:59:18):

Best hardware analog synth.

Speaker 3 (00:59:23):

I'm going to go with the MOG grandmother.

Speaker 2 (00:59:28):

Ooh, good choice. Best plug in eq

Speaker 3 (00:59:33):

Fab Filter Pro three.

Speaker 2 (00:59:36):

Favorite mic Preamp?

Speaker 3 (00:59:41):

10 73.

Speaker 2 (00:59:43):

And what is the baddest ass most crushing mix you've ever heard in your life?

Speaker 3 (00:59:49):

Ooh, I feel like the Dark Horse Nickelback album sounds insane. Is that the one I'm thinking of?

Speaker 2 (01:00:01):

Excellent choice.

Speaker 3 (01:00:02):

Yeah. In rock, I could go on for days about different genres, but that one's pretty mind blowing.

Speaker 1 (01:00:10):

Yeah, it's gold standard, gold standard stuff. But Zach, thank you so much for coming back on. It's been a pleasure. Thank

Speaker 3 (01:00:17):

You guys. Yeah, that it was great. Out of blast. Anytime. Awesome. Yeah. Well thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 1 (01:00:26):

For sure. I'm sure I will see y'all soon. Yeah, you will. And yeah, tell someone I said hey, I don't know who, but thank you. I'll let somebody know. Alright, cool.