WILL YIP: Chasing Passion Over Paychecks, Losing Bands Gracefully, and How to Avoid Burnout

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast. And now your host, Eyal Levi.

Speaker 2 (00:00:08):

Welcome to the URM Podcast. Thank you so much for being here. It's crazy to think that we are now on our seventh year. Don't ask me how that all just flew by, but it did. Man, time moves fast and it's only because of you, the listeners, if you'd like us to stick around another seven years and there's a few simple things you can do that would really, really help us out, I would endlessly appreciate if you would, number one, share our episodes with your friends. Number two, post our episodes on your Facebook and Instagram, and tag me at al Levi URM audio and at URM Academy, and of course our guest. And number three, leave us reviews and five star reviews wherever you can. We especially love iTunes reviews. Once again, thank you for all the years and years of loyalty. I just want you to know that we will never charge you for this podcast, and I will always work as hard as possible to improve the episodes in every single way.

(00:01:10):

All we ask in return is a share a post and tag us. Oh, and one last thing. Do you have a question you would like me to answer on an episode? I don't mean for a guest. I mean for me, it can be about anything. Email it to [email protected]. That's EYAL at m dot A-C-D-E-M-Y. There's no.com on that. It's exactly the way I spelled it. And use the subject line. Answer me Eyal. Alright, let's get on with it. Hello everybody. Welcome to the URM Podcast. My guest today is someone who I have wanted to get on here for a long time, so I'm very excited about this. One. Will Y is a legendary songwriter, producer, engineer, mixer and record label owner. He's a partner at the Famous Studio four, which is known for Bob Dylan and Billy Joel and the Fujis. And he splits time as the primary mind behind the labels, black cement and memory music produced bands such as Code Orange Circus, survive, title, fight, and so many more. Here we go. Let's do this Will Yip. Welcome to the URM Podcast.

Speaker 3 (00:02:18):

Dude, thanks for having me, man. It is an honor to get to talk to you and talk to your listeners.

Speaker 2 (00:02:24):

I feel the same way about having you on, man. When was that? That we met in that bar in Portland randomly.

Speaker 3 (00:02:32):

What a random, random time. I think that was, I do know exactly when that was. That was the end of 2018. I was out there. I couldn't talk too much about it then because it was like a secret writing session, but we were, at that point, I was working on my fifth record with Turnover. The Man Turnover literally were my favorite bands to work with and we wanted to do something different. We spent the first four records doing it at my studio here in Philly, and people want to switch it up and most bands, they just use a different producer or a different writer, a different collaborator. Simple way

Speaker 2 (00:03:06):

To switch it up. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (00:03:08):

And I'm lucky enough that they valued our creative relationship and they're like, yo, we want to work with you, but let's switch it up. Let's switch it up somehow. Let's write this shit somewhere. Let's write this shit in Hawaii or some shit, or in South America or whatever. We went in Portland instead. Those things just because their tour was starting on the West Coast and we're like, yo, let's link up in Portland. Let's get an Airbnb for a few weeks before they hop on this tour. And we did it and it was a Saturday and I was like, holy shit, Portland, who do I know? After we got into a rhythm, I was like, who do I know that lives in Portland? I was like, Chris, Chris Krummen lives in Portland. I texted him, he was like, you've been to my city for fucking two weeks and you haven't hit me up. I was like, dude, let's hang out. He was like, yo, actually I have homies, these guys, they're all at this bar tonight, this come through. I was like, oh shit. Hell yeah. So that was the end of 2018. Crazy. It's flown by.

Speaker 2 (00:04:00):

Yeah, so that was probably when Chris was doing Dance. Gavin dance on Nail the mix.

Speaker 3 (00:04:06):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:04:07):

Dude, it's all a huge blur to me. It's all a huge blur. You're

Speaker 3 (00:04:10):

Doing too much, bro. You're doing so much good stuff. I love it. I love it.

Speaker 2 (00:04:13):

I mean, you can relate to the blur of a lot of work,

Speaker 3 (00:04:17):

Dude. Can I ever, that's just how I operate now. I just got married a couple months ago. Congrats. Thanks man. And our goal, my goal was to maybe slow it down, work a little less and just chill. A little more focus.

Speaker 2 (00:04:34):

Sorry I'm laughing, but

Speaker 3 (00:04:37):

None of that happened since then. We picked up a lot more records. We're putting out eight bands on my indie label and I'm starting three more other businesses even outside of studio. So that all happened post getting married and when I was supposed to chill out. So it's been a wild ride. I'm grateful for it. I think in a time where most people are looking for work in music, definitely I'm grateful and it's an honor to be able to have so much great work around me. Well,

Speaker 2 (00:05:06):

You do great work, so I feel like Thank you, man. If you do great work more great work comes your way. But I'm just curious, do you think that slowing down is even in your DNA or in your brain wiring? Is that you?

Speaker 3 (00:05:20):

I always make the joke to people. I'm like, yo guys, I'm inherently lazy. I don't want to do anything. I want to ban and come in. I want their songs be perfect and we just grab it and it'd be it. But that's just not how I am. I come from a very work heavy family. My parents are, they came from China back in the late seventies, and all they did was work my entire life. All they did was work. And I was hanging out with my mom the other day and she's like, yo, you got to stop working so much. You're going to fucking just burn out. And I'm like, yo, I got this shit from you. I learned this shit from you all. I, they're very caring and very supportive parents, but all they did was work. They worked 14, 15, 16 hour days just coming over from China with nothing, with literally just a close on our backs and a sponsor here.

(00:06:07):

Basically, they had nothing. Not a dime, not a cent. And I value that, know what I mean? I don't think that work ethic will ever leave me, and I'm just inspired by work. When I first started working with Lauren Hill, Ms. Lauren Hill, she reads people really well, and I remember the first tour we're working and I was always stressed and she's like, yo, will I like you and I respect you because you're driven by stress, you're driven by work. You're using that stress, not a negative way, but you're creating something with it. And that stuck with me. That's resonated with me the last probably 15 years now since I started working with her, where I don't take stress and a workload as a bad thing. It just drives me to kill it.

Speaker 2 (00:06:48):

I think that that's a key distinction actually, because I've known many people over the years who look at a giant workload. Look, anytime you want to do something good in life that involves creating something that didn't exist before, just channeling something out of thin air there's, or working with people who do that. Either way, when you're involved in stuff that involves creating, whether it's a business or art or whatever, if you really look at it, you can get overwhelmed. You could get overwhelmed, but I think that the key distinction is that some people get scared and don't go into it or will sabotage it. Other people will see that amount of work and get energized by it, and I think you can work on it. But I also think that it comes down a lot to nature and nurture. A lot of it comes down to childhood, for better or for worse. I was around a dad that was a super high achiever in music and all his friends were the best classical musicians in the world, and that was my environment. So from that, just growing up around that, I didn't even question whether or not success in music was realistic or unrealistic or hard or anything. It just seemed like this is life.

Speaker 3 (00:08:13):

This is life. This is what you do, this is what you're born into and this is real. Yeah, I love that. I definitely connect with that. For me, it definitely was a lot different in a way that my parents were growing up. My parents were very, again, they came over here and my dad was a waiter and my mom worked in a sweatshop strip sweatshop for most of my life, so they actually didn't back when I started getting through the music thing, when I started playing drums when I was 11, definitely when I started trying to work in a studio when I was 14, I was like, yo, I'm interning at this. It's this old weird dude's basement studio. You're like, what? You're 14. Maybe she's focusing on school and focusing on having a better life than we have, so you don't have to work as much as we do.

(00:09:03):

Don't make it worse. Yeah, exactly. And I was like, yo, I knew from when I was 14 when I stepped foot in a studio, I knew at that point I was going to work in a studio for the rest of my life from when I was 14 because I loved it. I fell in love with it. I fell in love with everything. I fell in love with the big picture aspect. I fell in love with building music. Not that they weren't supportive. Again, they're very supportive people, but they were nervous the entire time and I was kind of nervous. Can you blame 'em? Yeah, for sure, for sure. And I definitely was, I was nervous. I didn't want to let anyone down, but I know just like you, where you're surrounded by success in music and the possibility of success in music, that this is very possible.

(00:09:48):

I saw what they did in their work and they had nothing, and they are providing to kids and a bunch of other family with a great life and great opportunity. I knew me being here, being in Philly and being in the states that I had the opportunity to kill it, and if I worked hard like them that I was going to do it at 14. I knew I was going to do it. I know what success meant, but I knew I was going to be okay. I knew I was going to work hard. I had that surroundings of just the culture of work ethic that I knew I was going to work to get to where I needed to be able to succeed.

Speaker 2 (00:10:28):

Well, you had this example that showed you that you can take nothing and turn it into something.

Speaker 3 (00:10:35):

Exactly. That's what I'm trying to say. Exactly. And I knew I had a passion and they weren't passionate about fucking waiting tables or putting clothes together. They were just passionate about giving their kids a better life.

Speaker 2 (00:10:46):

Yeah, bigger picture.

Speaker 3 (00:10:48):

At that point, my passion was music. I was like, I'm going to make this fucking work. I'm going to make this fucking work. At 15, I started teaching drum lessons just to get some money in, and while working part-time at the studio for $4 an hour, I was like, I'm going to make this work. I was working at a studio helping out for four or five bucks an hour. I remember getting the first raise of seven 50. I was partying. It was like the coolest thing,

Speaker 2 (00:11:11):

Bought a Ferrari,

Speaker 3 (00:11:13):

But I knew I was going to make it work, man. I didn't know how. I just knew I was going to keep working to get there.

Speaker 2 (00:11:18):

I said earlier that I think a key distinction is how people deal with stress. But I also think that, I was talking about this actually with Paul Vidal from Cynic the other day on Riff Hardd podcast, how he just knew that music guitar and the type of weird music he makes, it's just his thing. It was not a question kind of for me, this has never been a question When I was 14 and started playing guitar and wanted to have a metal band, it was not, maybe it was always a definite, and there's never been any question about what the next step is or what it is that I'm doing, and I've noticed that some people don't have that. I'm not judging them or anything, but I have noticed this common characteristic among people who have made music their entire lives is that they knew the whole time that this was the only thing for them.

Speaker 3 (00:12:14):

There

Speaker 2 (00:12:14):

Was not another option. Maybe there's a couple exceptions, like Jeff Dunn or whatever, he has another career too. You hear about some outliers like that. The dude from macrophages also worked for BMW and stuff, but that's rare. Most people who do something great with music never planned or wanted to or even thought about doing anything else.

Speaker 3 (00:12:40):

Yep, exactly, exactly. I had the best advice I got when I was in college and I was all was struggling then make ends meet in college again. It didn't have a big financial support. I was taught to kind of build it on my own. But Paul Gluck, who at that point was a producer at NBC here in Philly, who I was lucky enough to have as a mentor for a little bit, he was like, dude, in your twenties, do what you love, and especially your early twenties in your college years and right after college, do what you love. Don't chase the money, chase what you love. That's the time that in your life, that's the only time that you can invest in yourself and work for free. And I'm not telling people to work for free, but don't chase the money. Don't go to places just because you're going to get paid more or whatever. Just do what you love because in 10 years you're not going to be able to, you're going to have no choice. Yeah, you're going to have no choice and you're going to have to chase that money. And I really took that, took that. I was like, dude, alright, I'm going to fucking invest myself into the studio. I was working at that point and the personnel and just invest myself in my craft and try to share my craft as many people as I possibly can.

Speaker 2 (00:13:49):

I relate to that. I think that's a great lesson. I just think about it. In my twenties, I devoted myself to extreme metal and to death metal band that we got signed to Roadrunner and everything and did our thing, but obviously no money was made and I knew the whole time, this is never going to be a living, but I have to do this. And there were other influences coming in. Why don't you try to do something more radio friendly? Why don't you do a style of music that is more capable of producing an income? Is like, no, this is my thing. I'm doing this and that dedication to extreme metal is what's allowed nail the mix and URM and riff hard and stuff to exist.

Speaker 3 (00:14:32):

Exactly. Hell yeah. Yeah. That's inspiring, man.

Speaker 2 (00:14:35):

So I can chase the money now, not that this is about money. Yeah,

Speaker 3 (00:14:38):

The core is your passion. You created that core. Yep. You curated that so that the world revolves around your passion and then Yep, yep, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (00:14:46):

And you're totally right. I feel like teenage and twenties, you have to focus on that stuff. If you're an instrumentalist, you have to do the six to eight hour practice days then don't wait.

Speaker 3 (00:15:00):

Yo, bro. Not to jump around so much, but in college, right after college, a year or two after college, I was already touring with Lauryn Hill at this point as tour manager played some drums, monitors, all that shit, her teleprompter. That was the worst gig out of all of them, teleprompter because she didn't follow it and she'll yell at you, but I love her. I love her. So I was home from tour and I just finished the first title, fight record, and I knew it was going to be buzzy because they were a very buzzy band at that point. All my buddies from college, a few of my buddies started working at Comcast because they just built at that point, the flagship Comcast building in Philly. And they were working for one of the stations they were working for at that point versus, which I think now is something else.

(00:15:49):

It's something else. Sports or whatever, or Comcast Sports or whatever. It all started with one guy. One guy was a video guy and he was like, yo, I have a friend. He started to be really successful there. I have a friend he brought in, one of our other guys started working there and brought in our other guy and they were outsourcing all of their audio to a Philly sound design company. And they were getting big enough the station that they would, instead of paying fucking 400 bucks a spot every single time, they would do enough spots for this little sports channel that they can build a studio on the 32nd floor of this building. And my buddy was like, I have one more guy. This guy will you have to meet to the boss, the head of the station.

(00:16:31):

Actually, I've never told a story to anyone outside our little circle. So I took a meeting and she was so cool. She was so smart. The head of versus, and she's like, I heard a lot about you. Funny thing is she also worked for Laury Hill about 10 years ago or a few years before that during the Miseducation era. So it'd be about 10 years before that. That was her most fun time she's ever had in her life working. And we went down and we toured the space about where do you see studio? I was like, oh, this little closet area is fine just to do spots, just to mix little spots and do some voiceover. This little closet is fine. It's like, alright, to entice you, what about this corner suite windows looking over this Chuco River? It was beautiful. I was like, all right, the window's going to sound like shit, but this is sick.

(00:17:18):

It has to be in here. I was like, this is the sickest thing ever. And she's like, and to further entice you, instead of us buying a studio, you have gear. Why don't you bring in your gear here and we pay you a rental fee per day as well, as well as your salary. And she slid me a offer sheet and it was at that point, might as well have said 5 million on it. You know what I mean? Being 21 and coming right off a tour 22 and right off a tour, which I made decent money, but the records I was making weren't making that money. I was lucky if I was making 750 bucks doing an EP or a thousand dollars doing an LP at that point, a hardcore LP for a thousand bucks. That was my normal rate back then for weeks of work.

(00:18:01):

So I saw this offer sheet. It was a lot of money. It was a lot of money. She stopped, she said, to be complete candid, off the record, I see so much potential in you in your audio career. Again, working with Lauren, that was the most creative I've ever felt. Part of me wishes I would've stuck doing the music video stuff and doing the creative side, you have a lot of potential. I just don't want to see, you basically don't want to see. You just waste it in an office space. And that was where we left it on a complete off the record note. And I'm like, fuck. At that point, that was the hardest decision I ever had to make professionally was turning that down and we're talking. I never thought I'll make six figures ever in my life to fucking do audio stuff.

(00:18:44):

And there it was. At that point I was making a thousand dollars a record, man. I respectfully declined. I still advised the build out the rest of the stuff, but I couldn't do it. I love music. I going to just was going to mix fucking radio spots or TV spots, you know what I mean? And show up at six and work till eight o'clock doing something that I knew my passion wasn't into. I always tell guys, obviously I love the engineering side, I love building sound. That's not where my passion is. My passion is in songs. My passion is the creativeness, creativity and creating songs. So she made it really clear for me, really easy for me. The second she said that, I knew the second she said, we still had the conversation with my partner and my family about it, but I knew what I was going to do.

Speaker 2 (00:19:27):

That's a ballsy move. Those types of decisions, those big decisions, they will define how your life turns out. And you can't let yourself be, I guess, mesmerized by flashy objects like money because yes, you could have made money. What would it have done to you? Yeah, well, there's no way to know, but what do you think it would've done long-term had you accepted that

Speaker 3 (00:19:55):

I'll probably be in Connecticut. They moved to Connecticut immediate like two years later and I don't know, man, I probably would've quit. I probably would've quit again. I just can't see myself doing that. And the only reason why I would've accepted it is because of the financial security, which my family has never had up until our generation up until now, up until my brothers, my cousins, me, this generation of our Chinese family, you know what I mean? This is the first time we've all this generation has ever had financial security for our entire bloodline. That's the only reason I would've did it. And I think I would do something smart. I was saved up my chips and this is something else afterwards, but I definitely would've been here. I would've not been the studio. I wouldn't have these resources because for a minute people weren't coming.

(00:20:42):

Not a minute. For a few years people weren't coming to me. For me, they were coming to me because I had a really good deal on a great studio. You know what I mean? And I knew that. So everything would've been probably delayed a little bit, but who knows? But you are exactly where you wanted to be, right? This is exactly where I want every district I make in terms of working, doing my imprint with a major record label, doing this label, working on this venture. Everything. I always think about the big picture and where it's going to kind of help place me. Where do I want to be? What control I need to have over my life? Every decision, every single record I accept, I take those things into consideration just like where it's going to put me. It is all about the big picture.

(00:21:27):

And I think if there's any advice I can give to young producers or young people in the music world, make good decisions, man, think it out a little bit and not be overly impulsive on something. Or I was talking to an artist yesterday about we're trying to build, she's an incredible, incredible, incredible backup tour musician, backup tour musician. But she wants to start her career as a solo artist, as a full front start. And I think she is. She has everything. She has the songs, she has the sound, she has the look, she performs, but she's so good at playing that all these big stars want to use her as a backing musician. She plays everything and she looks so cool. So they just want her on stage with them killing it. And I'm like, yo, alright. We have to put our foot down and we just have to commit to you being a fucking star. Let's be okay with losing the next tour's money. Let's be okay with that. Because even though you might be losing that money, what you gain in your brand and what you gain in developing you as a solo artist is going to be way more beneficial, way more valuable. So that's how I look at every record. Yeah, I might turn down a bigger record

(00:22:43):

Like whatever, a band's 10th record, but to me a lot of times that's not as valuable as me doing a band's first record that I believe in. You know what I mean? Even though it could mean 50 Gs versus three Gs or five Gs or whatever it is. I think I do a good job on making good decisions on the work that I do and the situations I put myself in for the greater future of myself. Because I think a lot of producers fuck that up.

Speaker 2 (00:23:19):

I do. I agree.

Speaker 3 (00:23:20):

Again, I respect every producer they have to make their money, they have to keep their lights on. I get it, I get it. They have family to take care of. But a lot of producers, they get so popular and they pop off with a bunch of projects and then they start getting used to these big checks, bigger and bigger checks. So they keep chasing these checks. No one gives a fuck who does a band's 10th record? You know what I mean? You can ask a normal person on the street who's a huge Deftones fan, they don't care who's doing their fucking record. They want the fucking Deftones. Obviously it'll be sick to do a fucking Deftones record, don't get me wrong. But that producer, those producers, I can name some, but I don't want to put anyone on the spot, but certain producers, they came up with the band.

(00:24:03):

That's how they got popular. They just like me, I think people were familiar with me because I wasn't even a pop punk or a hardcore a pop punk guy. But I did a title, fight record and things started happening. A bunch of that world. I started doing those records and that world started to pop off a little bit and it became easy to try and chase bigger records. So I got the circus survive record, I got the whatever, and we're getting bigger and bigger records. And then I just see that already after a few years, there's already a next generation of bands. Those fans of title fight five years later are doing their own bands, but they can't afford what I'm charging for records now. But they have their own producers that are hot and young and coming up, whereas those, you get older, you get older, you're chasing these checks, not that you get stale or you get forgotten, but the reason why it got successful was that heat.

(00:24:57):

That heat that you built something with a community, with a band, with an artist, you built something with them. It was almost like you being a tastemaker. And I find a lot of value in that, and that's what I just enjoy too. I enjoy doing fresh stuff. I enjoy fresh energy. And I found that those are those records and those projects are just as valuable if not more valuable than just chasing these pushing six figure records or whatever, or just high records. Even though I did a few records last year for free just because I believe in this artist so much, I just tracked a fucking Bart Strange record for nothing because I just believed in it so much and now he's popping the fuck off and I don't really care how people perceive me, but my manager was like, yo, you're really a part of his ecosystem. You're perceived as a part of Bart's ecosystem and just his thing. And that's valuable. And that adds to adding longevity to your career because you're known more as someone that helps build, instead of just chasing, I never want to just be a guy that chases or climbs. I want to build stuff.

Speaker 2 (00:26:11):

Even on the label end of things, which you do, there's a big difference between the legendary a and r people are the people who discover not people who sign legacy acts. And of course it's cool to sign a legacy act because it's guaranteed money, but the people who sign a legacy act, they keep their jobs of course, but the ones that become the legendary a and r guys are the ones who discover and build bands.

Speaker 3 (00:26:41):

Yep, exactly. So back in 2015, when I started to see that disconnect happen, I was like, yo, I can't afford to do these small projects all the time. I know I can't. I just bought into the studio. I took out a literal quarter million dollar loan for the studio. It was a lot of money for me at that time. And for any time I was going to say, that's a lot of money, period. That's a lot of money, period. And it was a big risk. And I started, it was the first time in my life that I had to make overhead, had to make a certain amount of high overhead, and it was really high. It was really high. And I was like, dude, I can't afford to do, if a title fight walked in, if a new title fight walked in, I couldn't afford to do those records anymore.

(00:27:26):

I'm like, and that fucking sucks. Someone else is going to do it and they're going to pop off and they're going to have fun and they're going to build this thing. And I'm like, fuck, I can't have that. Alright, how can I position myself to do it? So that's when I created memory music. I created an indie label where, alright, yeah, maybe you don't have the budget to, or maybe I can't afford to do the record, but how about if I invest in these records so that if I actually believe in enough that I can be a part of the record and own the record with you and me invest in it. And that's how I earned my ownership, my part ownership of the masters. That's how I share the masters with you so that yeah, I can afford to do these small bands because I'm invested in it.

(00:28:11):

So that's when I started memory music back in 2015, just a place for my friends or just artists I believed in that they just needed a home. They needed more resources than they could afford. You know what I mean? And we gave it to 'em. And I think it's finally working a place for not everyone can afford a 20, 30,000 record. You know what I mean? But a lot of artists, if they had those same resources, could be fucking stars. So that's been my goal with the indie labels give these young artists, give these budding artists fucking the resources that they really do deserve, but maybe they can't afford. You know what I mean? So that's why I did that label to keep the business but also allow me to be a part of these budding bands.

Speaker 2 (00:28:52):

I think that it's very important to recognize that you kind of have to check off both boxes out of pure practicality. You have to do what you have to do to keep the business. But also, I've thought this for a long time, some people disagree, but they're wrong. I think it's very important for those of us who have gotten somewhere to help the next generation out, it's super, super important. How else is it going to work if that doesn't happen? And also on a practical level, say that you don't say you don't philosophically agree or even care. There's this practical thing of not becoming stale.

Speaker 3 (00:29:33):

Exactly. I was definitely guilty of ignoring the world outside my studio, I think especially when I was a little younger in my twenties, late twenties, and I was like, man, I don't give a fuck. I don't give a fuck about everything. I don't give a fuck about this, that I just want to work on my music. I just work. And honestly, I probably needed that. I need the focus. I need to focus my craft. I need to fine tune my skills. But man, now with a little bit with whatever audience that I do have, anyone that's willing to listen, I want to help. And that's why doing this, I'm grateful to be able to lend my voice on your platform and platforms like this. I want to help and I just want to help aspiring rather as musicians or producers, engineers, because people like you and I, we did it, we've done it or we're doing it and it's really not easy.

(00:30:22):

And I can't imagine borderline impossible straight up. I can't imagine doing it again. I can't even imagine that. I don't know where I started. I could have the story with you and talk about it, but in the big picture, it just seems crazy. The life we led, you know what I mean? So as a young person in 2021, it almost seems impossible. If I were them, it would seem impossible. But having voices like you and me trying to be one of those voices to help guide them, not guide, but just lend a voice and let know what it is possible. And there's so many different routes you can go that I think that's something I really want to focus on is sharing and just helping however I can, what we should be doing as a fucking community if I want to stay true to my hardcore roots, know what I mean?

(00:31:10):

It is about the community. And the better that the community does is the better that you do. That's something I learned. So I started doing a subsidiary with an imprint with a roadrunner at Electra Dave Wrath man, he's cool, by the way. Shout out Dave Wrath. Yep. He's my label mentor. I said this before on one interview, but I have to repeat it because it's very, very inspiring to me. I think everyone, I don't care who you are, you can proclaim to be your as open or as serving everybody else or whatever. But in this industry, there's a lot of competition. I'm guilty of that as well, and I definitely have been guilty of that. Every time I lost a test mix or a project, I'm like, fuck, fuck that. You know what I mean? And my partner would be like, man, they're going to do worse value.

(00:31:58):

I'm like, shit, that's crazy. And shouldn't be thinking like that. And I learned that from Dave Wrath when we were trying to sign bands. It's very hard to sign bands to a major record label. It is very hard to convince an indie band to sign a major. We lost out on a band I really wanted to sign. It was my first rejection. You know what I mean? I haven't felt that too much in my life of like, yo, usually if I want something, I work really hard. I have a good chance to get it. But this was the first time I was a real a and r with Dave and the band went with someone else and I was so bummed. I was kind of crushed. I was like, damn, I failed. I felt like a failure. And Dave was like, dude, root for them.

(00:32:37):

Fucking root for them. I hope they become the biggest band in the world. Will. There's a bigger picture than you. There's a bigger picture than us. If they kill it, all that means is the next, there's going to be 20 versions of them and they're all going to be coming to you to produce to whatever, and we're going to get a bunch of them on the label as well if they kill it. And I'm like, if you root for the community, and as long as you're active in the community, whoever does well in the community, all that does is benefit you. And I took that to heart, and ever since then I've just been recognizing that everywhere that I go, I'm like, yo, yeah, you might not get this work and your record, your punk record or your Harker record, your hip hop record might not be number one.

(00:33:22):

But if a band adjacent to your shit is number one, that means your world is going to be doing pretty good. You know what I mean? So as long as you're active and you're supportive of everyone else, you are going to be able to build with the community. So root for other people, root for other producers, because if a lot of producers are doing well, that means if you're any good, you're going to be doing well too. And you're going to have the opportunities as well. It is just like we, fuck. I don't really pay attention to that. The MGK shit, the machine guy Kelly shit in a microcosm, yo fucking Travis Barker. If he's getting, that might not be my shit that I listened to, but if he's getting people listen to electric guitars on the radio again,

Speaker 2 (00:34:06):

Fucking great.

Speaker 3 (00:34:07):

That's fucking great. That's all it's going to do is fucking be a gateway for the next wave. There's a 14-year-old kid that's listening to that shit saying, oh, I want to play electric guitar, and that dude's going to write the next quicksand record. You know what I mean? Be the next fucking quicksand. It's good for all of us, as long as good music's being made. It's good for everyone. So root for each other and it really, really just cheer on each other and build each other up because all it's going to do is good for the entire entire community.

Speaker 2 (00:34:35):

That's why I've always been perplexed. I mean, now this doesn't happen anymore with Slipknot, but the first many years of Slipknot being around, they got so much hate in the metal community, so much hate. But thanks to Slipknot, this next generation of metal was able to be big again. I don't know if people remember, but it went underground in the late nineties. It just disappeared off the map and slip knot's. The reason that it came back in a cool way that they would take bands like Shuga on tour, they would do festivals with Slayer. They basically put it back on the map. And whether or not people liked them, I've always loved them, but whether or not people liked them or disliked them, it doesn't matter. They should have rooted for them because this ecosystem or this metal economy or whatever you want to call it, is being strengthened in a big way by them or Avenge Sevenfold or Metallica or any of those bands that are huge, but get a ton of hate. Never understood it.

Speaker 3 (00:35:41):

Exactly. And man, I have so much respect for Slip Down, literally one of my favorite bands. And they're still doing, they're still championing budding bands and budding culture. They have took Coat Orange out, you know what I mean? And fucking, that's so fucking sick. So I'm grateful for people like that. And you're right, everyone should have been sharing for them the entire way, but that's how the world is. But if we can spread that message of just like man championing good music, that's it. And I always tell producers and engineers, it's okay. Lose out on this record. There's so much music to be made. There's enough to go around. You know what I mean? And as long as you keep working and you focus on your craft, you hone on your craft, you're going to get to work.

Speaker 2 (00:36:22):

Hey, everybody, if you're enjoying this podcast, and you should know that it's brought to you by URM Academy, URM Academy's mission is to create the next generation of audio professionals by giving them the inspiration and information to hone their craft and build a career doing what they love. You've probably heard me talk about Nail the Mix before, and if you're a member, you already know how amazing it is. The beginning of the month, nail the mix members, get the raw multitracks to a new song by artists like Lama, God Angels and Airwaves. Knock loose OPEC Shuga, bring me the Horizon. Gaira asking Alexandria Machine Head and Papa Roach among many, many others over 60 at this point. Then at the end of the month, the producer who mixed it comes on and does a live streaming walkthrough of exactly how they mix the song on the album and takes your questions live on air.

(00:37:14):

And these are guys like TLA Will Putney, Jens Borin, Dan Lancaster, to I Matson, Andrew Wade, and many, many more. You'll also get access to Mix Lab, which is our collection of dozens of bite-sized mixing tutorials that cover all the basics as well as Portfolio Builder, which is a library of pro quality multi-tracks cleared for use in your portfolio. So your career will never again be held back by the quality of your source material. And for those of you who really want to step up their game, we have another membership tier called URM Enhance, which includes everything I already told you about, and access to our massive library of fast tracks, which are deep, super detailed courses on intermediate and advanced topics like gain, staging, mastering, low end and so forth. It's over 500 hours of content. And man, let me tell you, this stuff is just insanely detailed.

(00:38:08):

Enhanced members also get access to one-on-ones, which are basically office hour sessions with us and Mix Rescue, which is where we open up one of your mixes and fix it up and talk you through exactly what we're doing at every step. So if any of that sounds interesting to you, if you're ready to level up your mixing skills in your audio career, head over to M Academy to find out more, I think that a lot of producers are operating from this mentality of a limited pie, right? So if there's five pieces and six people, or five pieces and 10 people or five pieces and 30 people, every time they're not seeing the pie is getting bigger or there're being more pies or anything like that, they just see one pie that's a set amount and then a growing number of people trying to access it and it scares the shit out of them. But I don't think that that's an accurate view.

Speaker 3 (00:39:08):

That is not, I have learned that there are many pies. There are lots and lots of pies, and if you don't focus on that and you just focus on yourself and what you're working on that you'll see the pies come to you, you'll see many more pies get delivered to you.

Speaker 2 (00:39:25):

It's absolutely true. I do believe in a very strong way though, that you should give it your all to try to get what you want, but when you don't and somebody else does, let it go, cheer for them. And again, there's two reasons I think number one is what we just said about their success helps. There's also the purely practical thing that how you react to losing something determines how you're perceived by people who will give you future opportunities.

Speaker 3 (00:39:57):

Exactly. I think there was a period of time where I didn't lose, I hate using the word lose because that's not what it really is. I'm trying to take those words out, my vernacular for this stuff. But there was a period of time where I always did a band's next record. I worked with Title Fight, I did a next record, I worked with Turnover, I did a next record, I worked with Citizen, did a next record. Still to this day, I never worked with a band, an artist just once other than one time forever ago. I'm proud of that. And that means that we were growing something. They saw the value

Speaker 2 (00:40:30):

Says a lot

Speaker 3 (00:40:32):

In our creative collaborative process, but with grown bands. And when our world here, or whatever you call our community, this little hardcore whatever, punk community grew a little more. I was not supposed to do whatever it was the last Coat orange record that came out underneath or this turnstile record for many reasons. But they want to grow. They want to do whatever, just try different things. They're very creative people. We had these conversations. They both would text me and we'll have this conversation. It's like, yo, we're going this route. There's no, there's no bad blood. I'm like, yo, there's never bad blood. Straight up. I'm grateful that you're even calling me about this. You don't owe me this. You as an artist don't owe me this. You know what I mean? We did two great records together, and fucking, I want you guys to be the biggest fucking band on the face of the earth, number one, just because I love you guys and you guys are friends.

(00:41:21):

Everybody do well. Number two, all it's going to do if they blow up, those last two records are going to go with it. And those royalty checks are going to be dope too. You know what I mean? I was like, but just to let you know, I have your back. I have your back no matter what that means I have your fucking back. That's why I did the Pre-Pro and the Turns Style stuff with them. They're like, yeah, alright. They value that. I still had their back. I was never, nor will I ever be sour about not doing a band's next record, because you should be grateful for the records that you do fucking do. Code Orange, they knew I had their backs. They came back and I finished the record. They didn't finish the record, and I finished the record and fucking, we redid a bunch and I mixed it.

(00:41:59):

You know what I mean? So it's like you have to keep relations and you can never be sour about shit because there's, there's always enough work to go around and man, it's an artist's fucking choice. They have to grow. And I know me and Brendan from turns down, I know me and Jamie from Code are going to work together for the rest of our lives in some capacity, a record here and there. That's just a part of our long musical journey. But either way, I was grateful that it was because our relationship is so good that I was still able to help in rather a small way or a big way even if I didn't produce the record. So yeah, man, I think you got to keep those relationships just real and remember what the goal is. The goal is for this artist to get as successful as possible, so help them. That means that might not mean you taking the reins of producing, but just even you just support them. You know what I mean? You champion them, you just back them however they need to be backed. And you'll be in a good place. You'll be in a good place in the community. You'll be a good place. The ecosystem. People will see you as a valuable team member. You know what I mean? And not as a person to focus just on them getting a piece of their pie. You know what I mean? Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:43:10):

That is a very hard thing to, I guess not understand, but to actually do. And I think that it's something that you can learn how to do if it's not your natural way of doing things or natural way of being to where something doesn't come your way and you're cool about it. I don't think that that's necessarily how a lot of people are wired, but I think that you can learn how to do that by changing your perspective on things. If you lose test mixes and get mad about it or record a band and they don't come back to you or whatever, and you're finding yourself getting fucking depressed or really, really angry or saying stupid shit. All those things as perfectly understandable and perfectly natural

Speaker 3 (00:44:00):

For sure. However,

Speaker 2 (00:44:01):

It should be gotten under control and an attempt should be made to think about it more the way that you were just describing. And I can just think of, there was a time where some band didn't come back to me and I got really, really mad about it. We had booked the time and everything, and then they didn't come back. And so I felt like at the time, I don't anymore. At the time, I felt like I was kind of being lied to because why did we book this time and why did we make all these plans? And then were you planning on this the whole time? Anyhow, my response should have been cool. Good luck. I hope the record's fucking awesome.

Speaker 3 (00:44:43):

That's it, man. It is way easier said than done, right? Yes.

Speaker 2 (00:44:47):

Because you got emotions.

Speaker 3 (00:44:48):

It's hard, not take it personally, but at the end of the day, you worked with that band before you're successful. I'm sure the record was successful.

Speaker 2 (00:44:57):

Yeah, it did great. That record did great.

Speaker 3 (00:44:59):

And we're at this phase now where I had this conversation with a lot of bands. We're thinking about working with other people just to switch it up. We've done four records, you will. We're thinking about Switch it up. I'm like, dude, fuck you, man. Do whatever your heart's telling you to do, and I'll always be there and I'll always be there to have your back. That's how I always going to end up getting involved in some way, whether I mix a record or whether I have to come back and we do a few more songs on it. I want to let them know. And I mean that I'm always going to be a member of your team, even if I'm not producing it right now, I'm always going to be a member of your team and always have your back, even if it's just as a fan, as someone rooting for you,

Speaker 1 (00:45:37):

As

Speaker 3 (00:45:37):

Someone just cheering it on. I just want you to be successful. That's going to do all of us good, just you guys being successful, even if I didn't do that record, you know what I mean? Or whatever. But luckily, even those records, I end up helping out in some way. So I'm grateful for that.

Speaker 2 (00:45:52):

Well, I think that attitude has a lot to do with it, because I do think that we all know producers who are amazing, amazing, great, just brilliant, but the way they behave is nothing short of sabotage. And people will not keep them on the team at all in any capacity just based on the way they behave. And they could have platinum records with this producer. They could have done the biggest record of their careers with this producer. And the behavior is what is the reason they don't keep a relationship with them. And so I really do think that that behavior, that attitude that you're talking about is outside of the quality of your work. I mean, that's it right there. That's why,

Speaker 3 (00:46:41):

Yeah, thanks, man. But I think producers tend to forget, they're in the director's chair. You are privileged to have the quarterback role in the room. You know what I mean? You're the one in front the computer, you're the one in front the board. You're one being able to navigate the session and basically rather you, and if an artist, a co-producer or whatever songwriter or whatever you are at the helm and you're really quarterback in this thing, you are the leader of the room in terms of how it flows. And it is your room most of the time. You have to keep a positive energy. People just react better to positivity. I think I really got into becoming a producer and not just an engineer. I will record in a lot of studios and the engineer slash producer were so just kind of mean, man. They were, were kind of dicks.

(00:47:34):

And I'm like, yo, this isn't how you're supposed to treat people. And they were so talented. Some of them were so talented and had hits on hits. I was like, yo, this is not how you treat people, man. And honestly, the two guys I'm thinking of right now are no longer working in music. Of course, even with Hits, even with straight up hits under the belt, they're now working in music. It's like, yo, man, I do this for two reasons. I do this. I love songs and I do this. I love hanging out with my homies and how can I make that happen? And nobody wants to hang out with a fucking grump or a control freak. A tyrant, yeah, a tyrant. No, man. I want people to be comfortable and have a good time and know that everybody in the room has an equal voice.

(00:48:14):

But I will help just keep things in line so that we're going to deliver a record at the end of the day, and we're going to deliver a great record at the end of the day to make sure that help make sure that we're making the right decisions. But we got to keep the studio positive and just the mental energy positive. That's the way great shit gets done. And that's the way we have fun. And I love having fun. I love having fun. Anybody, I'll tell you, I fucking love having fun. So that's something that I think a lot of producers got to overlook. It's not about you, man. It's not about me. It's about the fucking record. It's about making people feel great, because when people feel great, great music comes.

Speaker 2 (00:48:47):

What you're describing too, with that attitude that you've experienced with certain producers that we've all experienced, I think that's part of the old music industry, and people don't put up with it anymore. They don't have to, so they won't. I think that back then there weren't enough choices. And I also think maybe artists in other eras also probably were more insane when it comes to egos and habits. And I mean, artists are still artists in this day and age, but it was a little bit different with the amount of stardom and the amount of money and the amount of all that extra shit going on the size of those budgets. I mean, it created some monsters, I think. And if you look at the producers, the producers were charge of these huge projects financially, and there are still good budgets now. Dude, I remember it wasn't like the corn issues record, and I don't know these guys, I'm not saying that their records fall into this category of what I'm talking about, but I do remember that issues, or was it the one afterwards, 4 million budget

Speaker 3 (00:49:57):

Untouchables?

Speaker 2 (00:49:58):

Yeah, just fathom what that means.

Speaker 3 (00:50:02):

That's crazy. That's psychotic. That's crazy.

Speaker 2 (00:50:05):

That's going to affect the way people interact and behave. The amount of pressure that's on the producer, that's a ridiculous, ridiculous, ridiculous amount of pressure. It probably led to some bad behavior that is no longer acceptable because people don't need it. B, we're not in that environment anymore.

Speaker 3 (00:50:28):

Yep, exactly. You're absolutely right. And that's why I was just working with an artist. This is our sixth record together, and when the session, we were just having such a good time, man, I turned over to him and to the singer who's the main songwriter, I was like, dude, thanks for letting me fucking do this record again with you, man. He was like, are you kidding me? He was. He was never in question. I was like, thanks for saying that. I'm just grateful to be a part of it. And it's like, yo, I get capped up a lot. I'm the middle about seven records right now, and we're releasing a lot of records on the two labels that I work with. I get capped up and I get really stressed out, and there's times where I'm like, fuck, man, this is so stressful. But at the end of the day, fucking, we get to make fucking records. I get to make records with some of my best friends. The people in my wedding party were guys that met in music. You know what I mean? I'm like, dude, I get to make records with these guys every day. A little stress. I should be grateful for all that stress. And yeah, I think if you keep that mental attitude, man, only good things will come. And yeah, we just got to keep that positive energy up.

Speaker 2 (00:51:32):

I really, really, really, I'll say really times a thousand agree with you on that. So just on a purely practical level, when you have this much going on, like you said, there's seven records, got the label work, you have a wife, there's a lot going on. How do you balance it all? Or is balance a fantasy?

Speaker 3 (00:51:53):

Oh, man. I guess my first role that I've always tried to get producers and other producers, and especially ERs that work with me and mixers that work with me in line with is consistency. I think for me to do this much, my days have to be pretty consistent or else I'll lose my fucking mind. I remember back in my twenties, I would do, oh yeah, I'm do session from for the midnight. Oh yeah. And then next session I'm due at 10:00 AM to whatever, just doing shit wherever. You have to set boundaries. You have to set boundaries so that whenever you're working on something, you focus on that. You know what I mean? And you know what to expect. So I wake up, my days are crazy. I don't think people know what my days are. Actually, I don't talk about my days much, so I'll break down my schedule.

(00:52:37):

I wake up at about seven o'clock. I answer my emails. I do the laundry and I do some mixing in the morning. At 10 o'clock, I leave for the studio and I do a 10 hour day with whatever project that I have booked in my schedule's always centered by a project rather for three, four weeks, five weeks. And we start from 10 30 to eight 30, and at eight 30 I go home. I have dinner with my wife and we catch up and we enjoy time together for two or three hours. Then I go back downstairs to my basement, wherever my mix room, and I mix again for another session and I go to bed around two or three o'clock. Not healthy. Not healthy. I know that's my current schedule right now. And I'm lucky enough to finally have built a team from my manager to assistants assist engineers, personal assistants that help me and really get the right people in your circle that can just help facilitate all these records and facilitate my life.

(00:53:42):

So every single day, every second of my day is kind of already spoken for and throughout the day, we leave hours for things like this, hours for every Wednesday I know I have, or every Thursday I have a call with the label at four 30. So I try to really get everything as consistent as possible. I eat lunch at the same time every day, eat dinner at the same time every day. It is just having people have their expectations so that my wife knows I'm going to be home at 8 45 and we're having dinner that makes people feel good, that they expect you to be there. Now it's like, oh, it's well going to be home tonight. Well going to be, you know what I mean? Even though we don't have that much time together, that time that we have is quality time.

Speaker 2 (00:54:23):

That makes a huge difference.

Speaker 3 (00:54:25):

I was talking with a band that was working with another producer. I'm not going to put any names out there, not to blasting them, but it's just a lesson that I took in. He was like, yo man, this dude kept dipping out. He kept dipping out for calls and dipping out for meetings, just random times. And it was just me and the engineer that was just working. And I'm like, yeah, that's kind of whack. He's like, no, no, no. He was like, oh shit, dude. I take a lot of calls. He's like, no, no, no. I know you take a lot of calls, but when you are there, you kill it.

Speaker 2 (00:54:52):

Yes. Even

Speaker 3 (00:54:53):

If you're there for four hours of the session, be fucking present. Don't be on your phone and worrying about the other thing. You know what I mean? I'll worry about that thing when I have to address that thing. Not that that's balancing my life, but that's just how I gets shit done.

Speaker 2 (00:55:07):

That's what I do too.

Speaker 3 (00:55:08):

I think people get overwhelmed so that in their session, you can't see me, but I'm pretending to be on my phone. But in your session you're like, oh shit. Alright. This guy's texted me about this building. I'm working on a new building right now. This guy text me. No, no, no. Set aside time. Even if it's 45 minutes later after lunch. So usually we have lunch at two right after lunch. I give myself 30 minutes to take care. Again, some other loose phone calls to have to take care of. It's just be present whenever where you're supposed to be. You know what I mean? So if you're in a session, be present. You can dip out and take that phone call, be present on a phone call. When it gets dirty and feels imbalanced is when they all overlap each other. You know what I mean?

(00:55:47):

And I know there's people texting me right now about mixes that I right now have no control over that right now because here with you, I'm about to start a session. I have no control over those mixes. So that will just have to wait. You have to draw the lines. And that's what my partner's really taught me. She deals with this in her financial field all the time with people. 4,000 people from India to Asia bugging her. You have to draw lines and they'll understand, but they'll be grateful for it. It's going to be better work instead of very jumble stuff. So I think that's how I take care. It's not balanced, but it's just the only way I can operate. It's just when you get to it, you're very present for it and present for the work. And you're not fucking on your phone in the session or fucking thinking about the session when you're on the phone. You just have to be present.

Speaker 2 (00:56:30):

Yeah. I'll give you a for instance. Right now we're on this podcast. I know that when we get off of this podcast, there's probably going to be 50 more emails and just a line of texts, dms, and I could be seeing them come in. Right now it's set to do not disturb. My phone is upside down, my email isn't up. The only thing I have up is you, the audio. I'm recording and some notes about you and that's it. Because otherwise I wouldn't be fully present and nothing is going to happen in the two hours that we're talking that I can't deal with after

Speaker 3 (00:57:09):

People get anxious. So used to the immediacy of looking at their phones and checking their emails, but it's a tough lesson, but try to let that go and draw some boundaries. Especially as a producer, man, you want to say yes to everything and you want to be there for everyone, but you're one person. And I tell bands that. I was like, yo, work with me. I'm going to have your back until the end. But my schedule is kind of the worst. But when I'm there, I'm fucking there. I tell bands like, yeah, I'm going to have to wait. Fucking mad long to schedule in this thing, but when we get things going, I'm going to be there. I'm going to be present and we're going to be fucking rolling. So yeah, I think the word, it's not really balanced. It's just structuring. It's just structuring of how I operate and how I live my life the way I do. We take off days, but we're not off days because my off days consist of a lot of all my other business ventures. You know what I mean? I never stop. And the only way I can do it is by structuring it in a consistent way. Consistency is a big, big key.

Speaker 2 (00:58:11):

And focusing on the thing that you're focusing on at the time that you're supposed to be focusing on it.

Speaker 3 (00:58:17):

Yep. That's it. Those are the two things right there.

Speaker 2 (00:58:20):

When people talk about a balanced life or I feel like I don't know anyone who has that,

Speaker 3 (00:58:26):

I don't know what that means. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:58:28):

Me neither. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (00:58:28):

I can see a fantasy of a balanced life of, yeah, you have your home life, whatever your self-care time. For me personally, I know everyone has their own way of dealing with shit. If I'm alone and have nothing to do, I'm doing music to do. I'm fucking writing songs. Music is my life. You know what I mean? And everything that's everyth, othering that I'm working on has been branched off from music rather that's in, I'm very passionate about culinary stuff or fashion stuff. All that stuff is a branch of relationships I had off music. So music, everything is centered around music and there's no other way I would have it. So other than relationships, which you have to keep, keep everyone including yourself happy and at least feel like you're taken care of. You know what I mean? Emotionally and supported. Make sure you're supporting P, that's the word I'm looking for is that you're there for people, your friends, your family, your partners.

(00:59:25):

But in terms of fucking everything else, there's no other thing I'll be doing. So I have one of my mixed partners. He is a little older. He's a little 10 years older. We're not built the same. He's one of the most talented dudes that I work with. My buddy Vince. But growing up in the last 10 years, he always said, will you got to slow down, man? You're going to get burnt out. You got to slow down. You got to get burnt out. Couple months later, yo will, you're taking too much on, you got to slow down. You're get burnt out. I'm like, yo, yo Vince, I'm about to work on this. I'm about to take on this project, this record, and I'm about to start this other company with this thing. He's like, well, you're going to get burnt out. He's been saying that I haven't been burnt out for the last 15 years and I don't think I've gotten burnt out yet. I don't think that's just in my, if it's music, I'm not burning myself out. Cause I fucking love it, man. I love it. And it's not like I'm fucking building a house of manual labor. I'm here just doing what I would do anyway. I love it.

Speaker 2 (01:00:19):

Well, I think also if you didn't have the structure and the consistency, maybe you would burn yourself out. So if you didn't have that time with your wife, if you didn't know when you're going to sleep, if you didn't have that stuff built in and you were just doing one day a session from noon till three, then sleep three hours and then do another 12 hour session and then that insanity, that'll burn you out.

Speaker 3 (01:00:45):

Yeah, bro, you're helping me write my memoirs for me, man. You're organizing my thoughts for me though. That is it. I think the reason why I haven't burned out is because of the structuring and the consistency. There were times early in my twenties where I did feel now that I was burning out, but I was like, everything was foggy. My entire life was foggy doing noon to 1:00 AM sessions and only for a week, and then next week we did reverse. It is like that's just not healthy for your body. I think Americans, I read a lot on sleep studies and shit, but Americans get so fucked up. Your sleep is inconsistent. It's not even how much you sleep. It's the consistency of your sleep. You know what I mean? And people get fucked up here by weekend, so they sleep in and then Monday you're all fucked up. Your body, your heart doesn't respond to that. Well, even you just sleep six hours a day. If you get that consistent. If you're sleeping from midnight to six every single day, that's better than you getting three hours of sleep here or nine hours of sleep the next day. Fuck it. That's and whatever, seven hours sleep the next day, two hours sleep the next day. That's just so bad for you. You need regularity. Your body likes regularity. And that's how I try to structure my days.

Speaker 2 (01:01:58):

I think that's very wise. See, that doesn't come naturally to me at all. So what I do is I try to mimic people I know who are really good at it. I'm very, very fortunate. My girlfriend is great at that stuff, so I just see what she does and try to do it, just kind of mirror it. And I look at have one of my business partners is like that, and I pay attention to people who do that and just mirror their habits because if I was left to my own devices, it would all be chaos. And I'm aware of that. But I also really do believe that humans are not wired for chaos. We can operate under chaos and we can operate under stress and things like that, but only for X amount of time. There's a limited amount of time that we can be redlining ourselves. I mean, I'm sure if an emergency happened now and you had to pull an all-nighter or whatever, a deadline shifted by and it's tomorrow, not next week. Suddenly you'd figure it out. But doing that every day, that's the problem.

Speaker 3 (01:03:06):

Yeah, that's not sustainable.

Speaker 2 (01:03:08):

Question I have though is when you're in your twenties and teens and stuff, before you have a life that's really established and you are trying to put your name out there, you kind of have to do the insane sort of stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:03:24):

You kind of do. I would like to say that there's a magic magical recipe to not have to do that. But man, again, like I said before, my mentor from college said, in your late teens and twenties and college years, that's when you invest your time. Your time is how you invest yourselves into something. You can't afford to do it afterwards financially or your body wise or health wise, you know what I mean? But in your twenties, that's when you go all in. And again, I hate using the term work for free, but that's basically it. I interned my days when I was 19, I was interning for seven hours a day. Then I went home to record vocals for local rappers and local singers in my mom's basement. Top of going to school, I knew I was going to graduate late because I knew my priority was my internship and my sessions. I knew that was the value in my life. So things were crazy. They had to be crazy. You're right. It is doing that and building off that. That has afforded me now the life that I lead now and being able to structure my life the way I have to structure my life.

Speaker 2 (01:04:37):

The reason I'm saying that is because I don't want someone that's 20 that hasn't established themselves yet to limit their potential by imposing an order that can't really exist yet.

Speaker 3 (01:04:49):

Yep. You're absolutely right. So that's your structure. You know what I mean? And that's the thing. I think what it is too is I had a younger dude ask me a couple weeks ago, it was kind of crazy. I just met him at a panel and he came up to me and started telling me about his girlfriend was going to break up with him or he was having trouble with his girlfriend, but he wants to work in a studio. What he doing? I was like, that's a heavy fucking question. If you ask me at a fucking, that's the first thing we talking about. I loved it though. I loved it. And I was like, make the communication clear. So yeah, you're in your twenties, you have sessions everywhere. Don't fabricate it to your partner, to your boyfriend or girlfriend and say, oh, I'm there for you. I love you. I'm going to be there for you all day. Yo, if you know your life is going to be chaotic, they have to be privy of that. And you have surround yourself partners, friends with people that understand that that's not easy. That's not easy. I went through a lot of crazy relationships growing up and all my romance relationships, A lot of them didn't feel important enough compared to music. Maybe

Speaker 2 (01:05:49):

They weren't. Maybe

Speaker 3 (01:05:50):

They weren't.

Speaker 2 (01:05:50):

Yeah, same. I know how that feels.

Speaker 3 (01:05:53):

But when I first started dating my now wife, my life was probably the craziest as well. I was on tour of Lau Hill when I came back. I was fully on records. We were doing 12 hour days front to back while still mixing other shit. And she was very supportive. She knew I loved it. I'm very lucky. I am one of the lucky ones. But my goal with her was when we first started dating, not that she wasn't priority, was just for her to know what my life is. And it's like, this is my life. I'm going to try my best and I'm going to try to, I always had the vision of my life getting regular, you know what I mean? Where it is now, and it's not complete regular now, but I'm going to keep building towards that. But like you said, this is what I need to do right now for my future. I want you a part of it, but also you have your own needs as well. If this is enough for you can be enough. If what I'm saying sounds like it can be enough for you,

Speaker 2 (01:06:51):

Fuck yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:06:52):

Yeah, then fuck yeah. But if not, then that's probably not the right situation. It's really hard because emotions come into play and what you think you can do and how much you care about someone obviously comes into play, but you have to be real and that's the hardest thing to do. You have to be real yourself and you have to be really at communicating with what your boundaries are and what your life allows you to do. So yeah, so even though it's not balanced, my life then was still structured in a way. I knew what was going to go on your communication, that clear with the people around you,

Speaker 2 (01:07:23):

You knew what the priorities were. Just out of curiosity, you said that those previous relationships just didn't feel important. Must have been a different kind of feeling with who you ended up marrying. That one did feel important.

Speaker 3 (01:07:35):

I think it was because of that too, because she was so supportive, other than she being the best person in the world, and she had faith in that my life would get to where it is now, not in success, but in terms of me actually seeing through the chaotic part of my life. And I told her, I was like, yo, my life is going to get cleaner. My life is going to get a cleaner in sense of the schedule. And as we do bigger records, we're going to be able to fucking call our own shots and make our own boundaries with how we schedule things. We have to do this round. Now, this is the incubative process of the music career for me. And she believed in it. And that added to why I knew this was the right person for me was that she was supportive in that and outside of her being dope as fuck, but she had my back.

(01:08:22):

She really was and is a ride or die girl for me. And same for her. I think for the first time she was jumping between jobs and she had a job where for first time she was was a go-to and she had to be up all day and she was taking calls with India in the middle of the night when they woke up, a conversation really got to me. We were my car. She's so tired now I'm tired. She's like, I understand. All those years now of bands, labels, bands hitting you up and you need something and you felt crushed. She had nothing to apologize for, but it was almost like she was saying, I wish I understood more then to feel like she had my back more and she already had my back. She lived through it with me. You know what I mean? I have no grips with it. I knew what crazy life this is, but now I will be there for her in the same way. She's like, I have to take this call. I'm working until 11 tonight in the front room. I have to skip dinner. I'm like, I'll bring dinner home all good. It's all good. You're stuck me the rest of your goddamn life.

(01:09:23):

This is what we got to do. But also trust that it's not always going to be like this because she's going to climb the way she has to climb and for her to curate the life she wants to curate. And if that involves a busy life too, that's cool too. I think I am very understanding because of the chaotic life that I've led. So yeah, you're right. Yeah. I think her understanding of that and our honesty and our supporting each other is what got where we are.

Speaker 2 (01:09:49):

I honestly believe that if someone attempting this life doesn't have that, it's better to be single than to be with someone that is not going to, I guess, work with the plan.

Speaker 3 (01:10:03):

It creates a very toxic environment for both parties because you guys both aren't getting what you guys want and or need out of the situation, and it just creates a very negative space to be supportive of each other.

Speaker 2 (01:10:17):

Yeah, I don't mean it as a judgment on anybody. There's lots of great people who are completely incompatible. Yeah,

Speaker 3 (01:10:23):

Exactly. That's what I meant. Not about the personally taught, it's just about the situation being just not right and it have negative, just incompatibility is the right word.

Speaker 2 (01:10:36):

You got to know and understand who you're getting involved with, and it goes for business partners and everyone you work with as well. There's got to be some measure of compatibility with everything.

Speaker 3 (01:10:47):

Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:10:48):

How do you determine that, by the way, with a band that there's compatibility with you and them?

Speaker 3 (01:10:52):

Oh man, this is a loaded question, but easy for me, really easy for me. I like to think everyone thinks its way about themselves, so it makes me fucking egomaniac, but it is not. I'm down to work of anyone in terms of all personalities. I've learned that even the crazier guys are the one that teaches me the most. I love learning. I think producers have to learn that even though that producers are put at the helm of the record and people want to get information out of you and you're leading things you got to learn. Artists have a lot to share with you. You have to learn from, people have to learn from everyone. I learn from my assistants, I learn from everybody. My goal is be a sponge. Even now, even when I'm a producer in a room and I like to work with anyone, my only prerequisite is that I believe in the songs.

(01:11:36):

If I believe in the songs fucking and I see the potential and how great the songs are going to be, I want to be a part of the project. And we usually have a meeting before we take on a project, and the first thing that I say is, I hate these defined roles. Even though the word producer or engineer or whatever, that's not really what I am. And I tell bands that. I say, yo, I'm not this. Maybe that makes me the style producer that I am, but I'm just a member of the process. I'm a member of. When we get in this room, we're here to make music and I'm just going to be a member the same way you are a member, the same way the drummer's a member the same way the bass player's a member. We're all members in this room and our goal is to get a great song.

(01:12:19):

So whatever that means, I want to do that. So a lot of people say that, oh, that makes you basically, oh, so you have this fifth member, sixth member role. I'm like, if you want to put it like that, cool. But I just make music for a living. That's just what I do. So we come here and we make music and I need people to be open. That is the only thing that makes things incompatible for me. If you're not open to ideas and open to just new ideas and new concepts and trying things out, it's not the right fit.

Speaker 2 (01:12:50):

So say they just want a straight up engineer.

Speaker 3 (01:12:52):

Yeah, I'm not the guy. I don't care if Green Day walks through the door and say they want to work for 12 weeks and just need me to engineer shit, I won't do it. That's not what I do. That's, I don't enjoy that. And I only want to do shit that I enjoy if I have to do shit all day. And my thing is, I want to get into the songs. I tell guys all the time, I'm not a fucking sound guy. I'm a song guy. All I care about are the songs. My favorite records growing up weren't always records that sounded great. You know what I mean? Fucking and utero to me objectively isn't that. You won't put that as the world's greatest engineered record. I just love that record and old hip hop records, old punk records, I love those songs. And that's what I tell bands I I'm, I'm a song focused.

(01:13:41):

Song is paramount to me, and that means that if you work with me, we're going to be getting under the hood of your fucking songs. We're going to be diving into it. If you're not comfortable with that, then cool. It's not right. But usually when I have this conversation with people, I just tell them, I'm just trying to make your songs the best they can be. Do you want that or you don't? As in, we're going to try ideas out if you have a hook. And I say, yo, something about that hook's not feeling right. I tried. And I always tell guys, I really do every demo that I get, every idea, the first thing I do is try to love it, is try to see the value, see all can this hook? Am I singing this? I have even a test group around me that people that I trust, I was on any big question stuff's like, yo, is this song, does this feel right to you? And if it doesn't feel right to me that I know it might not feel right with a lot of people.

Speaker 2 (01:14:32):

I think a good producer happens to be in touch with what a lot of people resonate with. It just is part of the job.

Speaker 3 (01:14:39):

A great producer should be a great fan as well. You know what I mean? And I would say, alright, what about this instead, can we just try something else? And we can always go back to this. We can always go back to point A, can we just try B, C, or D? I have an idea. I have idea for this hook here. And I tell bands first, that's how I operate. If you want ideas, and I'll be the first one, and I'm not going to be married to my idea or your idea or this person's idea, this person have another idea for the hook. You can have another idea for the hook. I just want to get all the options that we pick the best idea for a fucking hook. And that's going to be the hook, not just what you came in with and it could go back there, but let's just go through these ideas and make the songs the best that they can be. So it's almost like it kind of makes it hard for the band to say, we don't want to make our songs the best that it can be. So we're not worried. But I really do mean it though.

Speaker 2 (01:15:30):

No, we want our songs to suck.

Speaker 3 (01:15:32):

But not saying that I'm the N all be all making songs great, no, it is the help of everyone. I'm just trying to promote that atmosphere in here for everyone to be open. And a lot of times are, yo man, that verse not feeling right. I have an idea. And that spawns the bass player to have another idea. Oh, I'll be the first person to say, oh yeah, my idea was bad bassist, dude, he has the idea. That's better. That's the shit. Let's roll with that. That's why most of my time spent working on record is pre-pro and writing. That's most of the time spent on how I make records. And it's because our goal is to make the songs as good as they can be. Anyone can make it fucking sound good, man. Anyone can make it sound good. We have a fucking Neve 80 48 console in here, and we have all the shit we need to make a great sound on record.

(01:16:18):

That's not where my head's at. And I have great engineers that help me. Paramount is the song. And then from that on, how do we plate it so that it does get plated the best it can be for consumption? Then we were about the sound and how it gets delivered. But at the end of the day, it's all about the song. If bands are open to that, we're going to have a great record. You know what I mean? But if bands are not, and they see, there was only one band I remember, I won't call it out, but it was a band I loved for most of my life, this band in high school. They were really crucial to my formative years when I got into a certain genre of music and they wanted me to do the record, their big comeback record. And we had a meeting and the singer was like, I've never had anyone touch my songs. And I'm like, dude, if you're not comfortable with that, then I'm probably not the guy for you.

Speaker 2 (01:17:08):

Yeah, fair enough.

Speaker 3 (01:17:09):

And I'll forever be a fan of the band. Other guys in the band were kind of bummed out, you know what I mean? But the main song already, he had his waist, this is his waist. I was like, dude, all the power to, I hope this shit fucking kills and fucking you guys destroy it and this pops off. But yeah. Yeah. That was the only time that conversation went the other way.

Speaker 2 (01:17:28):

It's important to have the conversation though, because if the band wants the fifth or the sixth member or a creative force, that's one thing. If they don't want that for whatever reason, and that's what you are, or if they do want that and that's not what you are, it's going to be a hard time.

Speaker 3 (01:17:47):

Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:17:47):

Yeah. And I don't think that you'll end up doing your best work or they'll end up doing their best work either.

Speaker 3 (01:17:53):

Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:17:53):

The question I have is, do you have this conversation every time? What do you do leading up to a record or when a band is courting you or you're courting a band to determine that this is good, we should do this.

Speaker 3 (01:18:08):

We have to have that conversation. If we don't have this conversation and this is not what they want, if this much involvement from a outside person is not what they want, then there's going to be a lot of negative energy and a lot of surprises. You know what I mean? I only want healthy surprises. And again, that band, that one band that the singer was not down to do, because no one's ever touched a song, that was the only time that me explaining my process lost me a record. If we ever get to, as far as having a conversation with a band, we booked the record, which says something about what I guess I'm selling. You know what I mean? But all I'm selling, I'm not selling anything. I'm just trying to pitch that. I'm just going to be a creative person to help with the songs.

(01:18:55):

You don't want that all good. You know what I mean? And I had to have a conversation. I don't want them to be blindsided for when they come in here and I'm like, yo, man, fucking, let's change the key. That verse melody is kind of whack. What do you think about doing this, doing this, doing that? I don't want them to be blindsided with that. I want to feel like I'm at band practice with them. And that's why, again, I do a lot of band's. Next record, a next record, next record. Cir Survive Our first record, I was only hired to be an engineer. I was also 22, 23 at that point. And it was a big record. They were coming off their big blue sky noise record, and they wanted to to produce their own shit. And I was able to just be an engineer.

(01:19:37):

But as the record moved on, I slowly, they saw my value. They listed some things that I said, and it gave me assistant producer next record. I was producer. The next record, I was producer and collaborator, co-writer, the newest record, fucking, they're like, will, let's switch it up. Let's fucking have you a part of the process. Early. Early. So I spent a month in the garage while we're starting out, the initial ideas now. So each record we added me in early and early and early in the process to grow our collaborative efforts. They see the value not in me, but in the value of what we get out in each other. It's not about me, it's about what I get out of them, what they get out of me, and the cool ideas that we do together. So yeah, man, those are relationships that I love because I always hated being a band, but I love fucking building songs.

(01:20:26):

I love writing songs, love producing songs. I love regian songs. I just love building songs. So my goal is to position myself where I just do that every single fucking day. If bands want that and they want just a fifth member or sixth member, I'm your guy. I tell 'em this. I use this analogy. I'm not saying that I'm LeBron James, I'm not. But do you want to add LeBron James to your basketball team? You already have a basketball team. You, Adam, he's going to make it better. Some may say he might ruin the chemistry in what you got going on in a team. That's cool. And they's not the right fit. But I like to think if I'm interested in a band, if I'm interested in a project, adding me that way is not going to hurt it. Because I know I'm not a bias ear.

(01:21:07):

I know everyone says that, as in I recognize when the shit's good. You know what I mean? I recognize when Jamie from Code Orangery brings the hook, I'll be the first one to say, no, we're not fucking with that. That shit's fucking good, man. And I'll be the first one to say, dude, that doesn't feel right. And we listen to each other because we respect each other and we respect each other's ideas. So I usually think that if I believe in a band and a record that adding me on as a fifth or sixth member is only going to make the record better at that early stage or at a creative stage. Because just like having another member of your band, and not that I'm LeBron, but I just want to be a valuable asset to the process.

Speaker 2 (01:21:46):

I think it's really important to know who you are. I know some people that are, they are like human computers when it comes to engineering. That is their thing. They almost find Zen in drum editing and stuff, which I'd want to throw myself off a balcony. But they love that. And they do great with that for several people. And I think it's really, really important to know what it is that you are and pursue that.

Speaker 3 (01:22:15):

Absolutely, man. Well,

Speaker 2 (01:22:16):

I think this is a good place to end the episode, man. I want to thank you very, very much for taking the time to hang out. It's been fucking awesome,

Speaker 3 (01:22:25):

Dude. Thank you, man. This is awesome. You're a man, dude. We got to connect more and stay in touch.

Speaker 2 (01:22:29):

I agree. Alright then another URM podcast episode in the bag. Please remember to share our episodes with your friends as well as post them to your Facebook and Instagram or any social media you use. Please tag me at al Levi URM audio at URM Academy. And of course, tag our guests as well. I mean, they really do appreciate it. In addition, do you have any questions for me about anything? Email them to [email protected]. That's EYAL at M dot aca DMY. And use the subject line answer me Ale. All right, then. Till next time, happy mixing.

Speaker 1 (01:23:10):

You've been listening to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast. To ask us questions, make suggestions and interact, visit URM Academy and press the podcast link today.