JENS BOGREN: Building a commercial studio, Landing the Opeth gig, Handling client feedback

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast,

Speaker 2 (00:00:04):

And now your host, Eyal Levi. Welcome to the URM podcast. Thank you so much for being here. It's crazy to think that we are now on our seventh year. Don't ask me how that all just flew by, but it did. Man, time moves fast and it's only because of you, the listeners, if you'd like us to stick around another seven years and there's a few simple things you can do that would really, really help us out, I would endlessly appreciate if you would, number one, share our episodes with your friends. Number two, post our episodes on your Facebook and Instagram and tag me at al Levi URM audio and at URM Academy and of course our guest. And number three, leave us reviews and five star reviews wherever you can. We especially love iTunes reviews. Once again, thank you for all the years and years of loyalty.

(00:01:01):

I just want you to know that we will never charge you for this podcast, and I will always work as hard as possible to improve the episodes in every single way. All we ask in return is a share a post and tag us. Oh, and one last thing. Do you have a question you would like me to answer on an episode? I don't mean for a guest. I mean for me, it can be about anything. Email it to [email protected]. That's EYAL at m dot A-C-D-E-M-Y. There's no.com on that. It's exactly the way I spelled it and use the subject line Answer me Eyal. Alright, let's get on with it. Hello everybody. Welcome to the URM Podcast. My guest today is a veteran of URM, Mr. Yenz Borin, who's been on the podcast twice. Done nailed the mix twice. Spoken at the URM Summit in 2019 and he's doing now the mix again in June of 2021. He's best known for his amazing production with bands like opec, Amman, Marth, arch Enemy, Dean of Borg Gear. The list just goes on and on. He's also known for his latest venture, Borin Digital, which offers some amazing IR packs and has some very exciting stuff coming up. I present you Jens Boren. Welcome back to the URM Podcast.

Speaker 3 (00:02:20):

Thanks, il. It's a pleasure being on here again for, what is it, the third time? That's a charm, right? Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:02:27):

Hopefully. I mean, the other two were actually, I really liked the other two episodes. They were really good. So anyone listening to this, if you enjoy it, the first one, I think we did what in 2016?

Speaker 3 (00:02:41):

I have no idea, but that could, it's either that or 2011. I don't remember.

Speaker 2 (00:02:48):

Something like that. So speaking of time, man, how's your past year been?

Speaker 3 (00:02:52):

Oh, it's been a special year for everyone I suppose. For me it also, I mean apart from the pandemic thing, it also involved moving into a new studio that I've built and also moving house. So it's been pretty crazy and I've also launched this whole Borin digital thing together with a business partner. Yeah, so it couldn't have been crazier for me, but I've been spared the virus thing. My loved ones are okay, so I shouldn't complain about anything really.

Speaker 2 (00:03:30):

So I remember we did nail the mix at the old studio and I remember you telling me that you were going to get a new one, and I remember thinking, but what's wrong with this one? This place is awesome. It was beautiful and perfectly isolated, which was good for me. I hate being around people. It seemed like such a good situation, the kind of studio that people work towards their entire lives. So just out of curiosity, why did you want something new?

Speaker 3 (00:04:01):

I mean, it is a good question. Obviously when I started out, it is now, this is my 20th anniversary this year, running Fascination Street Studios.

Speaker 2 (00:04:10):

You're 20 years old.

Speaker 3 (00:04:11):

Yes,

Speaker 2 (00:04:12):

I am. Happy birthday. Thank you. It's a big beard for a 20-year-old.

Speaker 3 (00:04:17):

Yeah, of course. Yeah, no, I've been running fascination Streets for 20 years. The first studio was in an old barn, a big, big style studio, big live room, all that kind of thing, and that nearly killed me, to be honest. I was just working all the time, and when I met my wife to be, I decided that I needed to do something about it. So we decided to build a house and I built a studio next to it. So that was my thing for, what was it, like 10 years?

Speaker 2 (00:04:50):

It was like two houses.

Speaker 3 (00:04:51):

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:04:53):

One was the studio, one was the house,

Speaker 3 (00:04:54):

Yeah, yeah. But then eventually I reached a point where I felt that I needed perhaps more space. I guess I wanted to build myself away from recording. That was also a part of this next to the house kind of studio thing, but it only took me a year before I realized that I actually wanted that big drum room. So I had the studio on another location and for the last five years or so, I've been having a studio in Stockholm together with David Castillio because I've been doing my drums there. But then I sort of started to have the need for a dedicated mastering room because I also have Tony lre on staff and mastering has really picked up for us and we needed more space. We were looking around for some place to build mainly a mastering room. Then I realized that Herbo is not the most expensive city in the world, but it's still, if you're going to rent something and then spend a lot of money building really great recording rooms, it is a bummer if you're not in control of the real estate. I ended up planning for a completely new Roundup facility. I think that was three and a half or even four years ago that I started the planning. It's basically now since last autumn when I was able to finally move in and start working in this new studio. There are still some things that are unfinished, but it is basically the last studio I ever built kind of thing, like 6,000 square feet facility with five bedrooms and three proper control rooms, two smaller control rooms, big live room, smaller room, kitchen,

Speaker 2 (00:06:41):

The real deal.

Speaker 3 (00:06:42):

Yeah, it is crazy. It's stupid to be honest, but the good thing is that we can all be here now because now we like have to count five people here in Abu in the company. It is good to have everyone gathered at the same place because I've been renting another studio in IBU as well to host Leus that's also working here with mixing. That's about it.

Speaker 2 (00:07:06):

It's just interesting in this day and age when I know people who are building studios like that still because it's such a rare thing, but it brings up the point that we get asked all the time, should I build a studio at home? Should I build a commercial space? And obviously I think every situation is different, but I really feel like the rule these days, what makes the most sense is build a studio at home and then when you actually need a commercial space, when you get to the point where the home setup just doesn't work for you anymore, there's too many people involved. It's too crazy. You're destroying your home life. There's too many clients, there's just too many needs that a home can't satisfy. That's the time to do it.

Speaker 3 (00:07:52):

That's true.

Speaker 2 (00:07:53):

But before that, it seems crazy to try. In this day and age

Speaker 3 (00:07:58):

It is. I mean, it was a little different for me 20 years, 20 years ago than there was still some sort of business happening, like local scene and that kind of thing. Having a studio next to my house has been great, especially because I have three kids. Having the kids come to earth and raising them has been really good. Being close to home from a financial point of view, being able to keep costs down and also wise, depending on different countries have different layouts. It's been favorable for me to sort of own the studio privately and rent it out to my company, so that's something I will lose now. But yeah, I guess we're going to the next level a little bit in terms of that, and it also makes a lot of sense now, especially with the Bogan Digital and all that kind of stuff that's going to come out there that we have a proper commercial place, but I cannot recommend it to anyone.

Speaker 2 (00:08:58):

No, it's interesting because just like with a lot of the stuff that I've done, for instance, I don't suggest anyone try the stuff that I've tried, and I think that it's the same with production or being in a band. It's not a good idea to try what other people try. You have to make it work for your own situation and then evolve it as it goes. I feel like trying to follow the path that somebody else followed is kind of a recipe for failure because the only reason that it worked for them is a unique set of circumstances that they capitalized on basically. But I think you kind of need to figure out your own path forward and evolve it as necessary and as appropriate. I've just seen lots and lots, and I'm sure you have lots and lots of producers basically get in their own way by incurring too much cost upfront before they could really handle affording it and basically forcing themselves into a situation where they have to take shitty work nonstop in order to pay for this thing that they set up for themselves rather than giving themselves a little bit more freedom to get better, be a little bit more choosy with who they work for, not having the same kind of massive, massive, I think, responsibility to do stuff that they're not ready for.

(00:10:31):

I've just seen a lot of people slow down their own momentum by doing that sort of thing.

Speaker 3 (00:10:36):

And there is also the thing that I think I've talked about in the past that once you make your hobby you are living, if that's where you're aiming, there is a risk that it will start to be pretty boring. It has been the same for me, to be honest. Being in a band recording my own band and eventually recording other artists and bands, that was the best thing I knew to be able to do that as a hobby. But once it becomes your profession, then you lose a little bit of that enjoyment and then suddenly you don't have a hobby anymore and it's really easy to sort of work all the time and getting burned out or whatever. I've had all kinds of muscle problems in my face and whatnot over the years because of that, but it is different today. Today you don't really need a really big studio to get going. There's so much stuff available in the software world and just with a laptop, so it's a unique situation in a way, historically speaking for young up and comers,

Speaker 2 (00:11:47):

I know that there's people listening who are probably saying, well, it's easy to say you don't need much. You're building a 6,000 square foot facility, but it's true. You don't need much. If you were to reset right now completely, just some weird shit happened and you didn't have your studio anymore. You could only mix from a bedroom or whatever. I'm within a matter of months, you'd already be at a spot where you could get yourself a room and gear or stay on a laptop if you wanted to and you could still continue your career.

Speaker 3 (00:12:24):

Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, if it's just a matter of this sort of having a place to mix and maybe track some vocals or silent recording of guitars and bass, it really doesn't take much to do real high quality results. So for me, it's a little different with the big live room that would be for the drums, and then I have clients always coming over here and needs to stay, and so it is a different situation for sure. I could definitely be doing most of my work from my toilet if I wanted to be honest.

Speaker 2 (00:13:02):

Good acoustics in there.

Speaker 3 (00:13:04):

Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

Speaker 2 (00:13:06):

I think that the reason that a lot of people don't like that idea is because it forces you to focus on what's important. So if someone really accepts, I don't need to buy all this fucking gear. I don't need a commercial place until I actually need a commercial place. I have everything I need right here on this computer. The only thing missing are my skills, well then that means you need to work really hard for a while to develop those skills, and I think that that's more intimidating and harder psychologically for a lot of people to accept than to think, well, I can just save up X amount of money, buy this piece, and in some future world that doesn't exist yet, I'm going to be better because of this.

Speaker 3 (00:13:58):

Yeah. It is also easy for someone like myself that has been working for a long time to actually know what's required and not because I've been like that as well. If I only get that SSL console, then I'm going to be able to do really great mixes if I can just get those speakers and everything is going to be much easier if I can just get that compressor finally, my vocals are going to be like that or that vocal microphone.

Speaker 2 (00:14:23):

It's a natural thing.

Speaker 3 (00:14:24):

Yeah, I'm sure. And I have I guess all of that, but I can't say that any key equipment has been make or break for me. I mean, I was doing good stuff on a Mackey console 25 years ago when I listened back to stuff and I could hear stuff I did on soundtracks with no automation tape everywhere to be able to ride faders and stuff that I think sounds great today when I listen back. So it's not so much about those pieces of gear. It is the experience that is the most important and the drive to really want to develop and become better and some sort of method perhaps to also evaluate the work, the ongoing work.

Speaker 2 (00:15:12):

I remember, man, when Mike Acker felt came to my parents' house where my original studio was to record a vocal for the Roadrunner United thing in 2005. He told me about working with you. You guys had just finished Ghost Reveries. It was during the sounds of the underground tour. They were playing in Atlanta and James Murphy was staying at my house and they needed to record the vocal, so it just worked out that way, and he was telling me about working with you. I hadn't never heard of you before. No one really had, at least in the American metal scene. And he told me, yeah, there's this guy we worked with Jens Boren who this young guy, but he cares about all the right things. His attention to detail is insane, and he just kept on talking about that, how you had a greater attention to detail than he had never found really before in the studio. And it's not like he worked with bad people before. He worked with great people before, but he got drawn to you because of your desire to get things absolutely right and to get them way better than they had ever been before and also unique. And so I think back to that, how old were you? 25, 26 at that point in time?

Speaker 3 (00:16:36):

Yeah, 25, 26. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:16:38):

So my point being that what really, really matters, and I think what matters to artists too who are hiring somebody is what's in their head. How much do they care about the project? How much are they pushing themselves to get every detail Absolutely right. As opposed to how big is their studio or what piece of gear are they on? I remember the conversation so clearly because he was talking about some producer that I had never heard of before when he could have easily gone with Andy sne or something or Colin Richardson or whoever in those days, and he had gone with Andy sne prior. I just remember how much he was talking about this new dude that nobody had ever heard of, and it made me start thinking a lot actually about what is it that actually matters when you're trying to get good at this?

(00:17:30):

What is it that people like him will actually be impressed by when looking for a producer regardless of how old the producer is or whatever, what is it that really blows people away? And it is somebody that does want to push things further and that does have that attention to detail. That brings me to something else I wanted to talk about. You hired Josh or J six as people know him on Facebook, and one thing that I noticed about him is that he's got a really insane attention to detail as far as helping you out goes. So I guess what I'm wondering is when you're looking to hire somebody, how important is that to you? How insane do they need to be when thinking about every single little detail that you need covered

Speaker 3 (00:18:19):

First when it comes to ya stake? It's a little different because we actually formed a new company together for the Borin digital stuff when it comes to the actual studio work for the people that I have here that are working here, two of them are people that I had at Herby University back in the day when I was doing some teaching there, and I sort of found these guys that were really, really driven and promising. So that would be Tony Lingering and El Cornelius song. It's all these different things, to be honest. I mean, one thing is obviously to be able to have a great ear to know what's going on, to understand where the focus needs to lie.

Speaker 2 (00:19:03):

What do you mean?

Speaker 3 (00:19:04):

I have heard a lot of mixes, for example, and productions that I think is good in one way, but not necessarily good in the sense that I think a production should be. It could be super perfect perhaps, but it's not moving me when I'm listening to it. There could be someone that is super good at griding everything, editing everything or super good at guitar sounds, but it's not perhaps able to get things together. I guess I'm looking for someone that shares the same type of musical slash productional vision as myself because it can be very different. You can hear a production that sounds that way or that way, and for me, if someone would be working with me, I need it to be sort of close to my own vision and what that is, I don't know. When I produce, I don't have super specific goals about things. I just sort of have the experience and I let the artist and the songs and the music sort of lead my way in the choices. Does that make sense?

Speaker 2 (00:20:22):

Yeah. But you have an aesthetic that's uniquely yours. One thing that I've noticed when listening to people's mixes like student mixes is yeah, you're right, they can span the range from to perfect or to this or to that. But one thing that I've noticed is that every once in a while I'll hear one that might not. You can tell that technically they need a lot of work still they're still student level, but there's something about their musical understanding where you can tell that they get the music artistically, they understand where it's supposed to go, they just don't have the technique yet or the experience yet to solve all the problems. It's like their soul isn't the right place, and I've always found those are the people that I've paid attention to and they tend to be the ones that end up starting to do things beyond the URM world.

(00:21:16):

It's interesting, it's like this deeper understanding of music. I feel like what you're saying too is kind of the same reason that I say that in order to be a good drum editor, for instance, you actually need to have some musical maturity. You can't just know how to grid things. You need to actually understand the way drums are supposed to feel, what the drummer was intending to do pocket, whether things are ahead or behind. You need to understand and be able to feel all these things in addition to know the technical side of things. And I'm assuming that what you mean is technique aside. If they don't have that musical understanding for where you want things to go and what the artist is intending, it kind of doesn't matter.

Speaker 3 (00:22:01):

Absolutely. One thing, if you are going to leave the bedroom, so to speak, and actually work commercially with a large number of different clients, you will end up working with all these different type of personalities where one band really wants it perfect if they hear something flaming, oh, this doesn't work, but well, I think it works, but okay, if you absolutely don't want that flam there, I can fix it. And then you work with another client where it's super important for them that everything feels organic. It's like, oh, did you edit anything? It's like, yeah, I mean no, and then I did, then I might have to fix things without, so it cannot be heard to them, so to speak.

Speaker 2 (00:22:42):

Clandestine edits,

Speaker 3 (00:22:44):

Yeah, I mean you need to sort of be able to master some different schools, so to speak, or different techniques to be able to work with a large variety of clients. Hopefully you have enough under your belt so they also trust you with a vision and that kind of thing. But that's something that I've felt because I have been using some external people sometimes for various editing tasks, it's a pretty rare thing to have both the musical mind for mixing and editing and also be technically good. It seems like it's a rare thing to have both halfs of the brain in that regard, so to speak.

Speaker 2 (00:23:26):

That's actually why I think there's not that much competition out there. People say that it's a super oversaturated field and impossible to get anywhere, so much competition, but I actually think that when you actually filter out all the people who either don't have technical skills or don't have musical understanding or don't have the right personality or aren't willing to make personal sacrifices, when you filter all that out, you're left with an extremely small group of people who are actually capable of doing it. So if you actually have some technical skills and some musical understanding and a good personality, you're already ahead of 99% of the people out there who are trying to do this. In my opinion, there isn't that much competition.

Speaker 3 (00:24:15):

Yeah, you might be right. You are probably more in a better position to judge that than I am because I'm just have my head is between my tits all day looking at the screen.

Speaker 2 (00:24:26):

Well, think about what you just said, how rare it is for someone to have both the musical understanding and the technical skill.

Speaker 3 (00:24:33):

Yeah, I know that for a fact. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:24:35):

That's what I'm saying. It's super rare. So out of curiosity, when you're looking for somebody to hire, which side is more important to you? Do you prefer that they have more technical skill or more musical understanding?

Speaker 3 (00:24:47):

The musical understanding is much harder to obtain, so I think that would be the priority, at least if you're looking for someone that's supposed to be handling both production tasks or recording tasks and also mixing tasks, the technical skills are easier to sharpen and to teach, I think. Yeah, I mean the musical skills can also be the more you do it, the more you mix, the more you record, the more you edit or tune vocals, the more you play music, the better you get, obviously. But I dunno, I guess it's some sort of, you need to have a little bit of natural talent for it as well. Whilst the technical side, someone can also always learn pro tools or be detective or what's the difference between this microphone and that microphone? It's not that important.

Speaker 2 (00:25:38):

It's hard to define because if someone is looking to become an assistant, by definition, they're not going to have the same amount of musical experience as you, right? If they had all the technical skill and all the experience, why would they be looking to become an assistant? It doesn't fit. Being an assistant is a stepping stone, right? No matter if it's five years or 10 years or one year, there's a limited amount of time that that position exists for because relationships run their course or people's skills develop, or if they're doing a really good job, they earn the trust of people and then they start getting their own gigs. So there's only a limited amount of time that it can last for in my opinion, but by definition they're not going to have the same level of experience. So I guess what I'm understanding is you're more willing to teach them the technical things as long as you feel like musically they're coming from the right place to a degree. It's hard to define though.

Speaker 3 (00:26:47):

Yeah. I mean with the guys that I've had have employed in the past, I guess it is been a constant development on all fields of course, and I guess some of them have really picked up on everything I say and really try harder and next time that problem will not happen again. While others may have a little harder to grasp, they say that, okay, I got it, but then well actually didn't hard to say it's really different. Some people might have a really hard time with the technical side and for others it's just you have to show them once and then they got it. It's hard to say this is such an organic field of work, to be honest, and no one can be best at everything, so

Speaker 2 (00:27:36):

It's organic in that. I've noticed that oftentimes whenever I've seen somebody hired or whenever I've hired somebody, like for instance when URM hired Nick, who he didn't really know how to do video,

Speaker 3 (00:27:51):

He's a terrible man.

Speaker 2 (00:27:53):

Fucking Nick, such a bad person. I'm kidding. I love him. He hurts puppies. I'm just kidding. He doesn't hurt puppies. Nick's great, but he didn't have the skills he has now at all. He was not good at video, not good at video editing. He literally didn't have the skills he has now. He had some, but not anything like what he can do now, and it was just super clear to us though that he was the person we could tell that if we put time into him, the skills would develop because he was the right kind of person. That was a lot more important to us than getting some video guy who had this huge resume and all these skills and a big career already. We had met people like that. Actually, we actually hired a guy like that at one point in time. It was amazing video guy.

(00:28:50):

It pissed everybody off. It was impossible to work with maybe one of the best video people I've ever met in my entire career. My point being that we went with someone who had at the time less technical skill, less experience, but the right attitude and the right talent level, and that proved to be the best decision I think. And the one thing that he did, which I think is really, really important for people who are looking to become an assistant or an intern was he focused really hard on solving problems for us. Before we had to tell him that they were problems, you could tell that his mind was in the right place. He was trying to make our lives easier, and so that meant anything from helping us not have to think about the food order for that day, all the way to highly technical things involved with running the stream or whatever. And I imagine it's kind of the same for you probably looking to have your life simplified in the studio to a degree,

Speaker 3 (00:29:54):

Absolutely. I do agree that having the right type of personality is the most important thing, probably more important than musical skills or technical skills. Even though if you supposed to work solely with mixing, then I suppose you can be sort of an asshole. It doesn't matter. But if you're going to be the kind of person that is around the studio, working with clients in the studio and doing production tasks and help, then the personal side is very important. I've actually had a situation like that with a pretty big band and we had a guy that was pretty fresh in the studio and he helped out. A third guy that was more experienced was also in the project and he came to me and said, yeah, this guy, it doesn't work. I have to tell them to redo all the time. And the band doesn't seem to understand, luckily because they love him from client perspective, if they work with people that they enjoy working with, it is usually more important than that. They are super good in getting that guitar take completely right or whatever, at least at the time, maybe not later, unless someone fixes the takes, obviously.

Speaker 2 (00:31:05):

Fair enough. So if you were to think about what the ideal assistance situation would be for you, would that look like? What would you be hoping would change about your workflow by bringing someone on? What kinds of things would you expect to be improved or would you expect out of a person?

Speaker 3 (00:31:25):

Right now in the studio, we do have some different tasks for everyone. What I usually don't want to do is to make coffee. That's the most important thing the coffee always needs to be on. And then when I come in to start a mix, for example, I want the mix to be prepared for me to be laid out. Anything that's off it needs to be fixed. If I would have fixed it and I've had that luxury now for some years and that's been amazing, then you can go in and do your creative part without having to fix things. I remember 10, 15 years ago, I was usually spending seven hours on a mix, just fixing things and then I was mixing for three hours and then the same on the next song and that kind of thing. So these days I probably spend more quality time on the mixing and I don't have to do all the preparation work and stuff. And that can be very, very different depending on where it comes from, who produced if the band did it themselves, et cetera. So that's something that someone working at Fast Nation Street would be able to handle.

Speaker 2 (00:32:35):

How long would you expect for it to take for someone to understand what it is that you're looking for? Obviously they wouldn't right away.

Speaker 3 (00:32:43):

Yeah, exactly. With the guys I have here now, I suppose it all started with them sort of sitting next to me or behind me. I would sort of try to explain all the steps that I was doing, trying to skill them up in how I make things. It's a little harder when it comes to production because it's a little annoying for the clients to have an assistant there at all times, so I usually didn't do that. But for the mixing tasks, I've had my assistants sit in so they understand my mix process. So in case let's say that there would need to be some sort of late revision at some point and I'm not available, then I could call my assistant to go in and he would immediately understand everything in my mix, opening it up and fix whatever needs to fix and then

Speaker 2 (00:33:32):

Print it. Kind of need to be in person to be able to develop that kind of understanding. I think

Speaker 3 (00:33:38):

Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (00:33:38):

Zach Sini hit me up recently and asked if I knew anybody who I would recommend to work for him and first thing that I thought was, well, I know lots of people who would be good enough, but do they need to be there with you? He said, yes, absolutely. They need to be there with me. Well, that right there eliminates a lot of people because if they need to be right there with you, probably what that's going to mean is they're going to have to move probably just with the way that things are set up now. So it's got to be someone that's willing to relocate. You're not looking to train somebody over the internet is what I'm understanding.

Speaker 3 (00:34:14):

Absolutely. I mean, all the people that work here now are people that are here locally, physically, two of them moved in from other countries, and two were here from the old days and learned the really long way, so to speak.

Speaker 2 (00:34:30):

Nowadays you would expect them to move to you.

Speaker 3 (00:34:33):

Absolutely. I think so. Still it is unbeatable inefficiency to do that. It depends a little bit though. Some assistant work like editing work or stuff can be done remotely and we have done that. I dunno, I built this big studio to be able to have the people around me. I suppose

Speaker 2 (00:34:53):

I feel like there's two paths to making this work for yourself in the modern age. One is you're in a place where maybe there's not a ton of opportunity, but somehow you work with bands and one of the bands takes off and you take off with them and that's how you start your career. That's one path. The other path is you start working underneath somebody who is working with the kinds of bands that you want to work with and you come up under them through their system and eventually do your own thing, whether it's as part of their studio or branch off on your own. That's kind of how it works is either a local band you're working with gets discovered and blows up, or somebody who's already working with bands that are on the level you hope to work with one day hires you and teaches you the ropes and lets you develop and situation a where a local band you're working with blows up is super rare.

(00:35:51):

It's like close to impossible almost. So that's almost like winning the lottery in my opinion. I know a lot of people who that's happened for a lot of people who have come on the podcast or nail the mix, that's their story. But the thing is people listening should understand that, well, the reason I have them on nail the mix is because they are the exception. That's not the rule. That's super uncommon and they're very special, which is why we're even talking in the first place. But the much more common route is to work underneath somebody who's already at the level that you're looking to get to one day and get mentored by them and help them and build up. And in order to make that happen, it kind of makes a huge difference whether or not you're willing to physically move to where the opportunity is, it really makes a difference. This is why people move to places like LA or Nashville or whatever all the time is so that they can put themselves in the situation to get hired by somebody and work their way up. It makes a huge difference. So I feel like in your situation, it's no different. You need someone that's willing to take that step and put themselves where the opportunity is and change their life for it.

Speaker 3 (00:37:07):

Yeah, it was the same for me back in the day. It is just that I did everything wrong. I didn't move to LA or even Stockholm. I moved to fucking bu, which is a small city and I didn't move to anyone that I could save five years by learning from. So I took the really long detour on these things.

Speaker 2 (00:37:27):

You're one of those exceptions though.

Speaker 3 (00:37:29):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:37:31):

Your story is super rare. There's far less people who did what you did and have come out on the other side successful than not gone to a small town and done it themselves. That's not normally how it works. I would consider you part of group A, which is super rare. It's just uncommon.

Speaker 3 (00:37:53):

It is, absolutely. And like I said, if I would do it all again, I would definitely try to get an internship or something at someone that's experienced and good because the other route is just too difficult

Speaker 2 (00:38:05):

And I'm not one of these people that likes to blame things on luck or whatever, but with the other route, the luck factor comes in that you meet a band at the right point in time in their career that's willing to give you a shot when the audience is ready for whatever you would bring to the table. There's a crazy amount of timing involved in the luck of having met the right person who would lead to the right opportunity. I mean that kind of luck happens no matter what it's required, no matter what, but it's far less statistically likely to occur if you're in a small town in the middle of nowhere.

Speaker 3 (00:38:47):

It is

Speaker 2 (00:38:47):

And it's required. You have to have that opportunity come up or else nothing happens.

Speaker 3 (00:38:52):

I agree. Unfortunately that's the case, especially today. But I guess today there are also other ways like this thing where people start recording themselves, starting a YouTube channel perhaps doing

Speaker 2 (00:39:06):

Yeah, you're right.

Speaker 3 (00:39:07):

That's definitely a sort of a window of exposure that wasn't available back in the day. So yeah, I guess there are some other ways

Speaker 2 (00:39:15):

True. I guess that's a third way of doing things, but still it requires, even if you're doing the YouTube thing on your own, it requires that either your material takes off or B, somebody likes your YouTube videos enough and gives you a shot mixing and their material takes off somewhere along the line, something has to take off and that's totally unpredictable. How did you get your opportunity to graduate into the record industry?

Speaker 3 (00:39:47):

I put myself in this situation where I took over a studio that was for sale. I think I've told this story on the podcast before. So if someone listens to these then they may want to fast forward.

Speaker 2 (00:40:02):

The reason I'm asking, even though you've talked about it before is because something interesting happened the other day. Sorry to interrupt you, I just want to tell you this. So we had Chris Crume on Nail the Mix and it was his second time and he's been on the podcast like four times and people started DMing him telling him that it's about time that he came on nail the mix. He did a pretty big band last time he did Dance. Gavin Dance, like they've got a ton of fans and his nail the mix session was actually one of the big ones that year and a lot of people had no idea. Every once in a while I'll make a post saying, who do you want to see on the podcast or nail the mix about half of what people suggest already happened. So just because we talked about it doesn't mean that most people have even heard it. So that's why I ask it and because I think it's super relevant.

Speaker 3 (00:40:52):

I took a little bit of a shortcut. So there was this studio in ibu, a city where I've never been, that was for sale. This was like, I dunno, early 2001 or something or late 2000. Anyway, so I contacted the guy that sold the studio, beautiful studio, fantastic analog equipment and great recording room and everything, and I figured that, yeah, I really, really want to get that studio, just that I didn't have any cash at all. So I went to the bank and they sort of laughed at me. So I went back to the guy that sold the studio and what I didn't realize I was 20 or one when I didn't realize that no one else was really interested in this. I was probably the only one in Sweden who saw this as a great opportunity at that time. Well, little accelerator perhaps, but I was able to get some sort of lease deal with him. So I rented the studio, started to work with local stuff, anything like jazz folk, rock singer songwriter, some glam band, whatever, because at this time people still needed a studio to record their stuff. That was how I got going. I had been doing stuff before also in school.

Speaker 2 (00:42:15):

How did you end up in a situation where a band like OPEC is giving you a chance on something that the Road runner debut, I mean, you're an unknown producer at that point in time. First of all, I know that Roadrunner in those days, I dunno how they run now, but I know that in those days they were very picky about who they would allow their bands to work with, first of all. And on a debut, that's kind of crazy.

Speaker 3 (00:42:46):

It was crazy. I didn't understand at the time obviously, but so what happened is that I spent a few years in my studio working with everything that I could get my hands on, sharpening my skills. I already thought that I was great. I could look back perhaps not the case all the time, and I did some local heavy metal band and this guy Don s that was working at the local music store, I had no idea who he was.

Speaker 2 (00:43:15):

He's awesome, by the way.

Speaker 3 (00:43:16):

Yeah. And he had been producing bands like Oth Catatonia, Melan Collin and stuff back in the day, bands that I've never heard of. He heard some stuff that I did and thought it was great. So he recommended Catatonia to work with me. So I got to mix one of their albums called Viva Emptiness, and I think that was early on like 2003 maybe. After that album I started to get some international recognition bands from Italy and stuff started to send me stuff for mixing. I got to do Blood bath, which was, well, they're still active collaboration between the guys in Catatonia, two guys in Catatonia, Peter, Peter, Ian, hypocrisy Pain, and Mike from OTH had been singing with him before and I guess he's back in the band now, and Dawn was also in this band. So I got to produce an album with them, which must have been 2004 Nightmares Made Flesh. That was the first time I even heard Death Metal. I think after that, after the catatonia and the blood bath thing, OPEC contacted me because they were friends with Catatonia and Catatonia had told them that this guy, he's great and the studio is great and all that kind of thing. And OI came from a really bad experience with a previous album, A lot of troubles. They had to switch studios and

Speaker 2 (00:44:40):

Yeah, I heard the studio broke

Speaker 3 (00:44:42):

Everything

Speaker 2 (00:44:44):

Among other things.

Speaker 3 (00:44:44):

They were in a position where they were also without a label at the time. They just, because I think they were a music for Nations and they got a bankruptcy thing or whatever it was. I think that was the case. The label got buzzed and they were suddenly free from the contract. I recorded their album. We spent three months doing the Ghost Revs album and I was really wanted this to be great, but I still didn't really understand what I was doing in terms of I didn't knew the band. I never heard, well, I had actually heard about OTH before because I saw them opening for Porcupine Tree at one point and I didn't like it. I thought, what is this shit?

(00:45:27):

Then I got to work with him and Mike Gitter from Roadrunner came in to listen to the album and we were all a little bit tense because that was the first time they met him as well and they were about to sign and that kind of thing, and he thought it was great. I hadn't mixed the album at that point. We just recorded it. So he thought it was good, and then they started to discuss the mixer and Roadrunner, like you say, they had a list of names that should mix the album, but Mike didn't want to do that. He said, no way. I'm going to send this off to a random person. This sounds like I want it already. Jen is doing a great job, so he should do it. So I got the shots with the chance to mix and they loved it and Roadrunner loved it as well. So yeah, I guess from that day I've been super busy. Basically

Speaker 2 (00:46:17):

The luck in that, my opinion is that you started working on the album before they signed the deal.

Speaker 3 (00:46:24):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:46:26):

The luck is that because had it happened differently, they might not have had the leverage to push for you.

Speaker 3 (00:46:33):

Yeah, I'm sure. Even though Mike is pretty strong in his opinions and he got mad when they started to talk about that they were going to decide who makes the album.

(00:46:42):

So that was also a factor. I think that's sort of the story, how that came about and after that there was loads of other stuff there. There are a few other parallel events at that time that also led to other jobs. Like Soilwork did an album at my studio with Daniel pretty early on that also got quite a lot of attention brought to the studio and I was doing some other products around that time. But the op lead is definitely the big lead and that stems back to Catatonia and Dance VO that worked at the local music store that sort of discovered me.

Speaker 2 (00:47:24):

You never know where these opportunities are going to come from. That's kind of the amazing thing. Yeah. Hey everybody, if you're enjoying this podcast then you should know that it's brought to you by URM Academy, URM Academy's mission is to create the next generation of audio professionals by giving them the inspiration and information to hone their craft and build a career doing what they love. You've probably heard me talk about Nail the Mix before, and if you're a member, you already know how amazing it is. The beginning of the month, nail the mix members, get the raw multitracks to a new song by artists like Lama God Angels and Airwaves. Knock loose eth shuga, bring me the Horizon. Go Jira, asking Alexandria Machine Head and Papa Roach among many, many others over 60 at this point. Then at the end of the month, the producer who mixed it comes on and does a live streaming walkthrough of exactly how they mix the song on the album and takes your questions live on air.

(00:48:22):

And these are guys like TLA Will Putney, Jens Boren, Dan Lancaster to I Matson, Andrew Wade, and many, many more. You'll also get access to Mix Lab, which is our collection of dozens of bite-sized mixing tutorials that cover all the basics as well as Portfolio Builder, which is a library of pro quality multi-tracks cleared for use in your portfolio. So your career will never again be held back by the quality of your source material. And for those of you who really want to step up their game, we have another membership tier called URM Enhance, which includes everything I already told you about and access to our massive library of fast tracks, which are deep, super detailed courses on intermediate and advanced topics like game staging, mastering low end and so forth. It's over 500 hours of content. And man, let me tell you, this stuff is just insanely detailed.

(00:49:16):

Enhanced members also get access to one-on-ones, which are basically office hour sessions with us and Mix Rescue, which is where we open up one of your mixes and fix it up and talk you through exactly what we're doing at every step. So if any of that sounds interesting to you, if you're ready to level up your mixing skills in your audio career, head over to URM Academy to find out more. I want to talk a little bit about Bore Digital. First of all, I think it's really cool you decided to start that. I wasn't surprised that you did it, but I was more amazed that you found the time to do it because I know when I met you before you did it when I met you, when we did nail the mix in 2017 or something and we had already podcasted once before that, and I was aware of how insane your schedule is.

(00:50:10):

I remember how long it took to get an email answered. I know and knew how insanely busy you are. Usually the thing that stops producers from doing something like that, like starting a URM or a JST or a bogram digitally starting some sort of a venture like that, the thing that prevents them is their recording career is the amount of time it takes. My recording career was never on the scale of yours, but it was still full time. It was still absolutely full time. I had to quit completely. For Joey to start JST, he had to scale and URM, he had to scale back completely, couldn't do both. So the fact that you haven't scaled back, in fact you're going even harder with the recording, with buying the studio, hiring more people. By the way, real quick, if someone does want to become your assistant, who should they get in contact with?

Speaker 3 (00:51:14):

Oh, info at Fascination Street se.

Speaker 2 (00:51:17):

Okay,

Speaker 3 (00:51:18):

That would be cool because yes, we are at this time, early 2021, we are looking for more people.

Speaker 2 (00:51:26):

So that said, you're not putting the brakes on the recording or mixing or production. You're going even harder with that, but you also started Bogan Digital. So first of all, how Yeah,

Speaker 3 (00:51:39):

I mean I am insane in the main brain if it wouldn't have been for Godsick. Just quickly, I can tell the anecdote here because I was selling my house and my previous studio last year because I was moving into the new studio and getting a new house that was a little closer to the new studio and also I didn't need the studio at the house anymore. So this guy from URM, the connection come from there ze with the last name that we will never try to pronounce. He got in contact to me and flew over to Sweden pre pandemic and fell in love with a house in the studio and decided to take his wife and dog and quit their jobs in San Francisco and move to the studio.

Speaker 2 (00:52:29):

I could tell you something about that by the way, in case you didn't know back when he was in San Francisco, I was doing one-on-ones with him actually somewhat frequently because he was very frustrated with where his career was at in San Francisco. He was above 35 years old and felt like the window of time is disappearing and he's still not where he wants to be. And so we were talking a lot about what can you do? What's the next step? How do we make sure that shit works? And the thing that I kept saying was you need to figure out a way to go where there's an opportunity like move, be ready to move. Just go. If it means you start traveling to different places to meet different producers or whatever, start going on travel tours and find yourself a job and when it comes up, be ready to drop everything. We had that conversation several times and the thing that's interesting about it is I have that conversation with people a lot, but they usually don't follow through and actually go and meet the people who might give them the opportunity and then when the opportunity comes up, drop everything.

(00:53:42):

So he actually did that shit.

Speaker 3 (00:53:43):

He did it, yeah. I mean he was in a situation where he could, but he's an extremely driven individual and I can tell you that I'm super happy that I met him and I guess that's somewhat thanks to you then. So thank you, Al. You're welcome. The whole idea was anyway, that he was going to come here and work in the studio and hopefully be collaborating with me as well. But then he sort of by accident pitched the idea of have you ever thought about releasing any products or stuff? And I've had those ideas. I mean, for 15 years probably. I've been thinking about IDs for plugins or stuff like that. I've been in contact with a few developers over time as well, talking about some prospects. But yes, the problem is time. I never had the time to follow through on this. It was when I met Ja and he suggested this where I sort of saw the opportunity that this could actually happen if he did everything apart from the sound parts or whatever.

(00:54:46):

So since he moved to Sweden, it was delayed a little bit because of the pandemic, but he came here in August I think, and he hasn't worked a single day in the studio because he's been fully occupied with Bogan Digital and he was in San Francisco as well for the past year. So his idea of moving here got a little different than he thought. Right now he's all down for this and all in. So the Bogen Peterson thing is for real and it would never happen if it wasn't for him. We started out a little easy with IR packs because it was an easy product to do. It was something that we could do ourselves. We have a lot of stuff in the loop and we have developers and people working on us with us on all level. I'm sort of a little bit afraid how this is going to affect my production career. Like you say, it is going to be quite a lot of time for me down the line that I have to spend on some of these products. But I've been doing this for 20 years and right now it feels great if I can do something else a little bit as well, even though I don't see myself quitting the mixing or production anytime soon. But to be able to balance these two jobs a little bit, I would enjoy that greatly.

Speaker 2 (00:56:12):

Without the right partner, it doesn't happen. And I think that to circle back to what we were talking about with assistance, I think that people really, really want to make something happen for themselves, especially with somebody else who's already successful. I mean, there's no real secret, but the real secret is to help them with something that they can't do. It's not that you couldn't do it on your own if you had the time, but the fact is you didn't have the time, the end. You didn't have the time, so needed the help to get it going. If you didn't have your production career and you had the time, I'm sure you could have pulled it off on your own. But we live in the world that we live in. We don't live in a fantasy world where things worked a different way, and so people should just pay attention to jazz X story, be willing to insert yourself where people need help.

Speaker 3 (00:57:04):

He definitely took control over his own career by doing all this, and yeah, he's constantly coming to me with new ideas and new ventures and new people that he's been talking to, new people that he tied to our projects and that kind of thing. So it's an amazing asset. Where do you want to go with it? World domination. Is that on the table?

Speaker 2 (00:57:29):

Like its own country?

Speaker 3 (00:57:30):

Yeah, an island perhaps somewhere.

Speaker 2 (00:57:33):

Fair enough.

Speaker 3 (00:57:34):

I hope that Borin digital thing, first of all, I mean it is driven by me seeing some areas within music production that I think haven't been filled or where there's perhaps lacking products that I would be able to use myself. There are some stuff there, some stuff that also has to do with AI and machine learning that we are working towards. It's going to be very exciting. One driving force here is definitely curiosity to be able to see where we can go with things. The next thing is that if we can get poker digital to really take off, I think that I would love to see myself in a position where I don't necessarily have to be working with production and mixing all the time around the clock I've been doing. It would be nice to perhaps be a little bit more picky with projects and be able to also spend a little bit more time on each project, even if it doesn't mean a larger paycheck. It would be more important for me maybe to be able to spend a little more time on some products and making sure the result is even better because it wouldn't be my necessarily the most important income stream.

Speaker 2 (00:58:52):

So it will allow you to focus more on the art, I guess exclusively.

Speaker 3 (00:58:58):

Yeah, it would be the same about the digital stuff. The parts that I'm involved in, those products, future plugins, instruments and stuff. It's is all the fun stuff. Creating the blueprint sounds and samples and whatnot, which is fun and also very developing because I've been doing this for 20 years, like I said, and I can use that experience into making something really good and also take myself to the next level, really give myself the time to explore all these sort of stuff that I've maybe never really had the time to explore before because it's always been ongoing productions and stuff. I would love to just, this month I'm just going to try snare drums because we really need to have the best possible snare drum for this upcoming product, for example. That sort of stuff would be great. And then I would be off fishing in the afternoons.

Speaker 2 (00:59:55):

Oh yeah, that's right. You love fishing.

Speaker 3 (00:59:57):

I do.

Speaker 2 (00:59:58):

You have a Facebook page dedicated to it?

Speaker 3 (01:00:00):

Yeah, I mean it sort of died a little bit because I haven't had the time, but I guess when Bogram Digital it goes bust, then I can go into the fishing venture full time.

Speaker 2 (01:00:11):

So we've got two nail the mix sessions coming up with you, which I'm super excited about. Septic Flesh and Am Mono Marth. They're two radically different sessions. I think it's cool that now this will be like four different nail the mix sessions and every single one of them is a vastly different sounding song Oth Between The Buried and Me and Now Septic Flesh and Amman Marth. And reason I'm bringing this up is because a lot of people talk about how producers or mixers have a signature sound, but what I've always thought was when you go and you actually listen to a mixer work who apparently has a signature sound, if you really go listen, all their stuff usually sounds different with the sneak stuff. People said his stuff sounded the same, but if you go listen, it doesn't all sound the same. Joey's stuff doesn't all sound the same and haven't heard people say that your stuff sounds the same. But still, if you listen to these four different tracks, there's nothing the same about them. They're all radically different. So out of curiosity, why do you think that some people get accused of sounding the same when reality is their stuff doesn't sound the same?

Speaker 3 (01:01:33):

I guess if you are a producer or a mixture that tend to quantize and use a lot of triggers, then I guess it's is easier to get accused of always sounding the same because I guess you would reach for the same type of samples that works and if you quantize drums very hard, I guess it is sort of a sound to that maybe. And if it gets recorded in the same room, I dunno, I can see that

Speaker 2 (01:02:05):

I guess superficially, yeah, maybe there's the same drum sample on some stuff. But when you analyze the mixes overall though, first of all I think it's impossible to replicate a mix from one band to another, so it doesn't even work.

Speaker 3 (01:02:22):

Even if I would mix the same song three times in a row, it would probably sound quite different

Speaker 2 (01:02:28):

Even if you use the same samples probably.

Speaker 3 (01:02:31):

Yeah, I don't know. I guess it's a psychological thing about that and people like to simplify things or tend to simplify things maybe. But if you compare septic flesh to marth, that's also 10 years apart. So that's another reason everything is very different there. I mean I can only speak for myself, but I very rarely listen back to stuff that I did. I do have some sort of a few references that I'm sort of coming back to just to calibrate my brain in terms of amount of treble amount of low end stuff that I know sounds good that I didn't do myself. I may have one or two of my own in that library as well, but I never tried to listen back. I always try to work ahead, new stuff, new situations. Most things will be similar in method and perhaps choices to other stuff that I did recently. And then everything sort of evolves. And if you look at yourself like 10 years ago, most things have changed. I dunno, for good or bad, I'm not sure. Sometimes I listen back or go into an old mix because I'm doing a 5.1 or whatever. Then I realized like, oh shit, I actually did like that back in the day. That's a good trick. I'm going to steal that for myself. So yeah, it's an evolving process. I usually describe it as some sort of circular movement that hopefully goes forward a little bit than not only backwards.

Speaker 2 (01:04:06):

That's a good way to put it. I think that more important than the go-to samples or anything like that, I think that the thing that's similar is the way that the person hears music. Their musical essence is the same, so they're probably bringing that to records that they work on. And I think that in some ways the more defined that their musical personality is in some ways the more of that that you'll get coming through a mix because you can't help it. You can only make your own decisions and your own decisions are going to come from your instincts and your tastes. But man, I have heard so many submitted mixes now over the years, thousands and thousands and thousands, and you would think by now that if it was possible to recreate somebody's mix that I would've heard it. And now a couple of years ago we started doing stuff in our mixed CRI group where people were working on nail the mixed tracks that already came out two years later. So the live stream already existed. They could just copy the mixer settings and pretend like it was theirs. And I know people do that and it still doesn't sound like the original. I think it's impossible. And so that's why when mixers get accused of sounding the same, I think I wonder if people are really listening when they say that shit.

Speaker 3 (01:05:44):

Yeah, I guess they hear some because I've heard myself say that as well from time to time without analyzing it, it's based on a feeling or a first impression rather than perhaps if I would actually start digging through. I do sometimes and then if I listen to some producer's work and then compare it to some other album, maybe it's a new band that I'm about to work with and I check out their previous stuff a little bit and then I can hear that it's the same person, but it's like, oh shit, that actually sounds very, very different even though it's the same person. So yeah, I would say it's laziness perhaps.

Speaker 2 (01:06:21):

Yeah. Do people ever ask you how to develop your own sound? Do you get asked that ever?

Speaker 3 (01:06:26):

How I develop my own sound or

Speaker 2 (01:06:28):

How they can go about developing their own sound?

Speaker 3 (01:06:32):

That's a good point. They ask me which samples I use, not how they can develop their own sound.

Speaker 2 (01:06:39):

Interesting. I think that there's no way to actually answer that question. That's why I'm wondering. I get asked that a lot. I think that it's kind of impossible to answer because all you really have to do is learn how to mix and your own sound will come through. There's no way to really, in my opinion, there's no way to really consciously develop it. Your tendencies are your tendencies. It's like your personality. Your personality is what it is.

Speaker 3 (01:07:10):

But then it also depends on what you mean by sound. If I see a music journalist for example, talk about the sound of a band, it's usually not so much about the sound, it's more about the aesthetics of the songwriting and how they arrange their songs. And that has a huge role as well. And that should be what leads the mixing decisions more than the taste. You need to figure out what do I have to play with here in the arrangement? What could I maybe add to the arrangement? I usually do that in terms of transitions between parts and delays. I could even put in some sort of ubstance at some point, maybe if I feel that a certain part needs more support and I guess the sound of a mix is dictated by the sound of the band and whatever the song needs. Hopefully that said a song could be mixed really good in a thousand different ways as well. That's why this is so interesting.

Speaker 2 (01:08:11):

The thing about a song could be mixed right in a thousand different ways. It makes me think about a movie if a different actor had been picked for something that we're all very familiar with, say that another really amazing actor had been picked for a very famous role that has become iconic and odds are it would probably also be awesome, but completely different and unimaginable. I don't think that you pick one thing and then every other option is terrible. I think like you said, there's a thousand different ways to do it. What I wonder is do you ever get that feeling when you're working on something of it when you hear it, it doesn't need to be explained when it's right. When you're going for a sound, like when you're dialing something or automating something or setting a level when it's right,

Speaker 3 (01:09:08):

But it's not necessarily my own taste that dictates the end result because sometimes the most fun scenario to be working in is when you can do that and you feel that this is coming together great and the client agrees and thinks it's great and everyone is happy and on clouds and whatnot, and you can go back for your own sake and fix things and do that. But there could also be instances, I'm just coming from a product like that where I thought, this is great. This song has led me to this. This is the sound, this is the mix, it's great. And then the client completely disagrees with you on that. The client does not think that there are a thousand ways to mix the song. The client thinks that there's just one way and that is very, very narrow and that can be pretty exhausting and eventually quite boring situation to work under when you feel that this client doesn't have any imagination sort of. So yeah, that can go both ways, but even in those scenarios you need to stay professional and just figure out what is it that the client wants. For me, for this recent project, it took me three revisions before we had dialed in, okay, now we're on the path and then there were a lot of small details. This syllable needs to be that way in that speaker and that kind of thing.

Speaker 2 (01:10:46):

When that happens where you think it's supposed to be one way and all your experience and tastes, techniques lead you to one place and that place that led you to is just wrong for the client. I mean objectively there is no wrong, but at the end of the day, client's the boss, so it's wrong and the client has a vision that's very, very different than that. And so you take the time, you do the revisions and you end up where they wanted, but then you still have the rest of the work to do. It seems to me like it would be hard just because you're fighting your own instincts the entire time from that point forward, or do you just snap into that mode, say you had to change the vision, you get to somewhere that's not natural for you but that the client's happy with. From that point forward, is it alright, you're in this mode and so all your parameters have shifted and you don't even think about it? Or are you fighting your instincts the whole way?

Speaker 3 (01:11:50):

It can be both. In a usual scenario it would just be a shift of perspective and that's fine. Then I get used to stuff as well two days later I'm used to what we're doing so I will follow that path. Sometimes it can be a matter, you sort of feel that you're mixing for what the client want to hear instead of what you think is the best for it. It's like, okay, I'm going to put the vocals now on this level because I know that based on the feedback I got so far, this is where they want it, but I think it should be louder or the opposite or this overdub thing. I think it destroys the feeling of those verses, but apparently the singer doesn't like the sound of his own voice and he wants the over dab to be really loud or whatever. But it's another one of those examples that this profession is just so varied. I went from this product into another one and that was just felt like the songs mix themselves and no day is another. I suppose even though they're all the same as well,

Speaker 2 (01:12:59):

Do you get frustrated? Oh

Speaker 3 (01:13:01):

Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:13:01):

Reason I'm wondering is because a lot of people say that you shouldn't get mad, you should just go with it. This is a natural part of mixing. Just be professional and it's all about what the client wants and yeah, they're right, but you're still human.

Speaker 3 (01:13:15):

Yeah, absolutely. And I have to fight that. I've gone home from mixing sessions feeling completely fucking broken. This is not cool. I don't ever want to work with this client again, et cetera, and then I still do their next album. It can be really tough, but I really try to think it that way and sometimes it can help people listening to this podcast and hearing that also Jen had had issues with clients or whatnot and I've heard or I read an interview with Dave Iff and he shared an experience where he also had clients not being happy and then he said that then it doesn't matter how big your racks are, you just have to sit down and push through it until the client is happy. So it happens to everyone on any level I think. And in a way demand goes up if you are doing bigger clients on bigger labels, it's more at stake in a way, and that can make things a little tense sometimes I've noticed. But it is super different. I mean, one client is that way, the next client will say that everything is awesome. You almost get mad the other way, but for fuck's sake, can you at least say that the snare is a little too loud or something.

Speaker 2 (01:14:37):

That's scary to me if they don't say anything because I feel like odds are they're afraid to.

Speaker 3 (01:14:43):

Yeah, okay, yeah, maybe

Speaker 2 (01:14:45):

That just scares me because I feel like how can anyone just think something's perfect? It just scares me that they're not saying something now that six months later they're going to hate.

Speaker 3 (01:14:57):

That's true, that's true. And in those cases, I have to become the critics myself in a way, so they're not giving me feedback. Then I have to step into the feedback role. I usually mix up the songs like 90% or something and then I want to send it to the client so I can say that, okay, this is still a little bit work in progress, but I think it's time for you to hear it. So I haven't spent those extra hours on trying to get everything perfect and then I have to go back and rebuild or something if you know what I mean.

(01:15:28):

And sometimes the client would then say, oh, it's perfect. And if I then said, oh really, it's perfect, great job done, and then I move on and that's not the best for the album either. So then I would have to sort of, okay, I'm not getting any feedback. I have to be my own critics and sort of go back to the songs and figure out what can I do better and this and that. Because usually I do that anyway. If I get some feedback from a client about a few points in the song or whatever, I would also do my own feedback so to speak. I would come back to the song trust, my first impression when I hear it again, do some fixes, spend, it's fast. Usually it's like 10 minutes of fixes going through doing some touchups. So I am happy even coming back to the song.

(01:16:15):

I'm happy and then I can do the client feedback. So those things are pretty important to me. So I like getting some feedback, but usually the bands that won't give you any feedback are bands that have been in the game for a long time. They worked with all kinds of producers and they trust your opinion I suppose maybe a little too much, but they're also realize that it won't matter that much if this is a little like that or how's that going to matter in 10 years? Is it going to affect album sales or not? That kind of attitude, which I think is, that's cool to be honest. I guess I prefer clients that are a little bit more easy on that regard than those real nervous clients that where everything has to be in a very specific way.

Speaker 2 (01:17:05):

It's cool for people to hear about the frustration too because I know that lots of times when people earlier in their career working with local bands get that first mix where the client hates everything they did. It can be very psychologically damaging and it's really not a big deal. It's something that just happens. You can't expect to please everybody the first time just doesn't work that way. I mean a big part of this is figuring out what somebody doesn't like about something and fixing it. So I know that it's natural to get frustrated, but I actually think that when people get a lot of feedback, that's a great opportunity to get better. It's just hard to see it that way.

Speaker 3 (01:17:49):

True. I mean you always develop if you think that the client is wrong, there was always something that you can take with you from that and you might strongly disagree with 'em as an instinct, but then you sort of have to take a step back. Sometimes some clients are clumsy in their way of saying things as well. They will focus only on the negative things and that's a tip if you ever employ a mixer, it is smart to start with positive things and encourage the person. And then what about this and this and this? What do you think? And sort of have a conversation going, I would be excellent in providing feedback to a mixer. I think

Speaker 2 (01:18:34):

It's not necessarily because mixers are emotionally fragile, it's more because you can only go off of what you've been told. You can only respond to the feedback you've been given. And so if all the feedback you've been given is negative stuff, you might think they totally hate everything. If they have nothing good to say or just haven't said anything good, you could think they don't have anything good to say about this, which is not always true.

Speaker 3 (01:19:02):

Absolutely, and it is your job also as a mixture, I should say that, to interpret feedback because you cannot expect the client in whatever listening environment, they may have to have maybe the best type of feedback. They might talk about something they want louder, but it might not be the case. If you go back to the mix and listen with a fresh ear, maybe it is as simple as racing this and that, but it could also be about frequencies or finding a new spot for a certain thing that lead guitar, it can't really go louder, but if I pan it out a little bit more, then it will be clearer. Or if I clear up this space and this other arrangement frequency wise, then this will come through a little better. It's the job as a mixer to sort of find the best path. If you just follow feedback from a client, chances are that the mix is not really going to be a good mix anymore.

Speaker 2 (01:20:02):

How do you tell them that they're wrong? Or is it more about figuring out what it is that they actually mean and then giving them that?

Speaker 3 (01:20:10):

Yeah, I'm more like that. Unless it really is something that I think is wrong. Then I would do a counter feedback thing where I would say that, okay, this and this I agree with, but this I'm not sure guys don't you think that this and this would happen or that we getting the wrong thing. And they may have an explanation that they say, yeah, but we have the intention of this and this and okay, so alright, I'll do that and then I may have to do something else. It's not like I tell the client exactly what I did or whatever. The feedback part of a mixing is, one revision is pretty fun. If it comes to a lot of revisions, it's not so fun.

Speaker 2 (01:20:53):

Do you ever feel like you've had to sign off on something that was kind of ruined?

Speaker 3 (01:20:59):

No, I don't think so. I usually find ways to sneak things back into this supposed to be. Sometimes it's also a matter for the client to become used to what they're hearing, right?

Speaker 2 (01:21:10):

Yes.

Speaker 3 (01:21:11):

Imagine that they've been listening to rough mixes or things in a certain state before or they still have this demos of the song in mind and they might just need a little time to grasp. So usually the first initial feedback is it could be quite a lot of pointers sometimes once you dealt with that, they're also used to stuff and usually there won't be much more. And sometimes that could also be a thing that I write. Take your time, listen, give it a few spins, listen around a little bit. Get used to it a little bit before you send me feedback. It depends, but this is very, very different client to client.

Speaker 2 (01:21:52):

Is it harder ever when you don't know the client? Personally, the interpretation part. I mean,

Speaker 3 (01:21:57):

Yeah, maybe I can't say that I've felt that that has been a problem. I guess if there's something that is unclear or doesn't make sense to me, then I would ask one little small tip. It could also be that never accept feedback from multiple band members.

Speaker 2 (01:22:16):

Yeah, that's a good one.

Speaker 3 (01:22:18):

Yeah, I guess more people have talked about that on the URM podcasts, but

Speaker 2 (01:22:23):

You can never say that one enough.

Speaker 3 (01:22:25):

Yeah, there needs to be someone that consolidates feedback and sort of acts producer, even if there is not a producer on board, some sort of band leader or whatever. If they can't even agree on that, then I suppose they would need to just compile a list. But I hate that when you clearly can see that. Yeah, okay, so this is the bass player saying that the bass needs to be louder on all songs and here's the drummer that wants the drum's louder. All songs and that kind of thing. But luckily these things usually doesn't happen with a little bit more experienced bands if they haven't released a few albums, they sort of know what their roles are and what's possible or not and that kind of thing.

Speaker 2 (01:23:10):

It's interesting because personally for me, I had a much easier time being in situations with bigger bands because of that. I'm not good with mixed notes and all that kind of stuff. That's not in my personality. I know some people who are very far along in their careers who prefer to work with the smaller bands because even though there's more frustrating shit involved sometimes the lack of experience, they feel like they're exploring the unknown almost. It's like the possibility to develop something that hasn't happened yet as opposed to maintain something

Speaker 3 (01:23:49):

That makes sense. And that hunger can also be inspiring to work with except for, as opposed to a band that already released 15 albums and just need a new one to be able to get a good tour slot.

Speaker 2 (01:24:04):

But that's also selling the veteran artist short because I know there's a lot of 'em who have put out 15 albums and still want to do something great and new.

Speaker 3 (01:24:16):

Yeah, of course. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:24:18):

It's just interesting how different people's personalities are because there's just as many people that are far along in their careers who will never work with a new band. They just refuse. They don't want to deal with the headache of a baby band and the bullshit that goes with it. They just not interested veteran bands or nothing. Do you have a preference?

Speaker 3 (01:24:40):

My personal preference for my own comfort would probably be a band that I worked with before and that I know that I have a good laugh with. That doesn't mean that it's comfort zone or we could still try to explore something new with a new album and that kind of thing. So that would probably be the smoothest thing with a younger band or a new band, obviously you don't know what to get. It could be an amazing experience or it could also be a little bit terrible. But the way things are on a production point of view, I rarely do new bands because there are so few of them that can afford a production.

Speaker 2 (01:25:22):

Yeah, true.

Speaker 3 (01:25:23):

Usually things would start with the bands sort of self-financing or doing their own thing before they would be able to shop for a deal or whatever. So I guess it's, there've been a shift. I did work with more younger bands in the past, perhaps it's also because I'm fucking old, so who knows?

Speaker 2 (01:25:42):

Well that just means you're still alive. That's the benefit or the side effect of survival is you get older.

Speaker 3 (01:25:50):

True, true.

Speaker 2 (01:25:51):

Ys, I want to thank you for coming on. I think it's a good place to end the episode. I'm excited to see what you're going to do with Borin Digital. I'm excited to have you on now the mix and I'll just say it. I'm excited to do a How it's Done course next year.

Speaker 3 (01:26:06):

Oh yeah, cool. I'm excited about that one as well. And happy to do two more nail the mixes. I guess I'm going to feel like broccoli in my head after those ones, but we'll see

Speaker 2 (01:26:15):

Broccoli on your head. Well, they don't need to be 12 hours long. I mean, I'm

Speaker 3 (01:26:20):

Trying, man. I'm trying.

Speaker 2 (01:26:22):

They don't have to be.

Speaker 3 (01:26:23):

I'm trying. I'm going to do my best.

Speaker 2 (01:26:26):

Sometimes they're only four hours long. Oh really? And that doesn't mean that they're bad.

Speaker 3 (01:26:32):

I know. And I'm repeating it. I'm really trying. I'm going to do my best. The septic flesh one is going to be intense. There's a lot of stuff in that one. Yeah, I'm sure. The other one I haven't opened in 13 years, so we'll see what that one brings.

Speaker 2 (01:26:45):

I mean, it can be long too. So that's also Okay. And I'll just say we don't, for people who are going to ask, because I just said that we're doing a How it's done course. We don't know what band yet. We're still figuring it out, but Well, thank you sir. It's been a pleasure.

Speaker 3 (01:27:00):

Thank you. I'll see you round.

Speaker 2 (01:27:02):

Alright then another URM podcast episode in the bag. Please remember to share our episodes with your friends as well as post some of your Facebook and Instagram or any social media you use. Please tag me at al Levi URM audio at M Academy and of course tag our guest as well. I mean, they really do appreciate it. In addition, do you have any questions for me about anything? Email them to [email protected]. That's EYL at urm. Do aca y and use the subject line, answer me a. All right then. Till next time, happy mixing.

Speaker 1 (01:27:42):

You've been listening to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast. To ask us questions, make suggestions and interact, visit URM Academy and press the podcast link today.