WIESŁAWSKI BROTHERS: The Decapitated sound, earning artist trust, and building a studio from nowhere

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:00:04):

And now your host, Eyal Levi. Welcome to the URM podcast. Thank you so much for being here. It's crazy to think that we are now on our seventh year. Don't ask me how that all just flew by, but it did. Man, time moves fast and it's only because of you, the listeners, if you'd like us to stick around another seven years and there's a few simple things you can do that would really, really help us out, I would endlessly appreciate if you would, number one, share our episodes with your friends. Number two, post our episodes on your Facebook and Instagram and tag me at al Levi URM audio and at URM Academy and of course our guest. And number three, leave us reviews and five star reviews wherever you can. We especially love iTunes reviews. Once again, thank you for all the years and years of loyalty.

(00:01:01):

I just want you to know that we will never charge you for this podcast and I will always work as hard as possible to improve the episodes in every single way. All we ask in return is a share a post and tag us. Oh, and one last thing. Do you have a question you would like me to answer on an episode? I don't mean for a guest. I mean for me it can be about anything. Email it to [email protected]. That's EYAL at m dot A-C-D-E-M-Y. There's no.com on that. It's exactly the way I spelled it. And use the subject line Answer me Eyal. Alright, let's get on with it. Hello everybody. Welcome to the URM Podcast. My guests today are Suave and Voytek v ky, a pair of brothers that run Hertz Studio out of Poland. Over a decades long career, they've worked with some of the biggest names in metal, including Behemoth, decapitated, Vader, and many more. I love their work and I'm excited to have them on. Let's get this going. Slawek and Wojtek, welcome to the URM Podcast.

Speaker 3 (00:02:05):

Thank you. Thank you for invitation. Welcome all of you. Thanks

Speaker 2 (00:02:08):

For being here. I appreciate it very much.

Speaker 3 (00:02:11):

Thank you. It's our pleasure. Thank you for invite us. Thank you very much.

Speaker 2 (00:02:14):

Of course. I've been listening to your work since the early two thousands. It's a pleasure to get to talk to you. I'm just curious, being that you guys are in Poland, there's so many amazing Polish metal bands that we all know about here. Would you say that most of the work that comes into you guys is because of those metal bands, the ones that we know about here, the behemoth decapitated or is there a whole wider scene of bands from your area that we would've never heard of but who make of the majority of your clients?

Speaker 3 (00:02:51):

I think you just tell about really two big bands and of course they are the biggest. We can include also va. Yes.

Speaker 2 (00:03:00):

Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 3 (00:03:02):

I think in Poland the metal scene is pretty big. It always was, I think pretty big. I dunno even how to explain. I think it's because of the country. It's, I say like disco polo and metal music were very popular, completely different. I don't know the styles of the music. We have another bands like Riverside, which is not exactly pure metal. Yes, it's some kind of progressive Yes right band. You remember that? The band, that infection?

Speaker 2 (00:03:36):

Yes. Actually,

Speaker 3 (00:03:38):

It's almost from our city. So I think we had even and we still have more bands. Yes, but they become bigger because of the, I know hard work for a years because I think to became a big band, it's an unbelievable huge work.

Speaker 2 (00:03:55):

It's close to, it's almost impossible.

Speaker 3 (00:03:57):

I don't know even how sometimes band ask us what to do to become a, I don't know, big band. So for sure I know that they need to play a lot. I mean a lot of geeks they have right now, they must have of course music. But the next thing, it's the whole approach to the gig, to the nice visualization. I don't know the whole, all that stuff that is behind the music. Not only right now music makes the band big, like promotion, good marketing, I don't know. I don't know how to explain

Speaker 2 (00:04:38):

With the music part of what goes into a successful band, what do you see as your part of it? Do you feel like you guys are trying to help the band's vision come to life or do you help them find their vision?

Speaker 3 (00:04:56):

First of all, they're very talented guys, the musician. So as far like bands for example, decapitated, we help, I will say we help to reach high level. I think with Decapitated we help with the vision. I think because I think it's only with that band, I think organic. Yes, Paak was that when they more popular in the world, they give us a free way on that album with the sound, the overall production they just mentioned they want to have a kick sounds like pen style and they want to have really tight guitars and that's all what they want to. And we talk, we ask, we talked before a lot and we just happen. We did this.

Speaker 2 (00:05:46):

Did you guys know that that was a very new kind of sound when you were working on it? Because man, I remember we toured with Decapitated in 2007, which is not that long after the record came out. And I remember thinking, this is like death metal, Pantera, these sounds, I've never really heard them done together like this. And those records that they put out literally did sound like death metal. Pantera didn't sound like anything else. And I definitely think that it changed the way that technical bands approached the way they sounded. Did you guys know that you were doing something different and special when you were working with them?

Speaker 3 (00:06:31):

Yes. Yes, absolutely. I think there was a very unique sound when we released a demo or a first, we showed the first mixes mixes. The people were surprised and they were shock and most of they said they don't like it. This is something not sound like Polish metal, not Polish bands. So some of the people they really, they blame about this, this is something different. This is no new metal style without this. Those was too new. You know what I mean? Junior too fresh. It was too shock for some of them, especially if the people from the, but not for musicians, the musicians, they really want to go on that way. So very talented guys. Those two brothers like Vogue and vtech, they really knew what they want to sounds like they really tied the way how to supposed to sound that particular album. Yes.

Speaker 2 (00:07:42):

So it's almost like they had a vision for something but they themselves didn't know how to record or mix so they couldn't realize it. So your job was to take what you saw with them and translate it into sound.

Speaker 3 (00:07:58):

The most, I think important to catch the band is to listen them before the recording

Speaker 4 (00:08:04):

How

Speaker 3 (00:08:04):

They play. For me it's very important because for me the biggest challenge is to capture the band, how they play. Because we can make the recording in two ways. We can make with the suave completely whole production and put something new. Yes. Like okay, this band on the stage, but this is after the album and it's completely new vision of that band with decapitated, it wasn't like that. We just simply know that there that was very good GI guitar player and the drummer.

Speaker 2 (00:08:37):

Amazing.

Speaker 3 (00:08:38):

Yes. And they were absolutely tight. They were brothers, they feel like each other. So we knew with Suave that we need to put it on the record and that was the biggest challenge to make it really tight and not typical, you know what I mean? Because right now it's I think very popular is references. Yes. So you talk with the band. Okay, I want to sound like, and then you can hear the names. Yes, yes.

Speaker 2 (00:09:10):

But

Speaker 3 (00:09:10):

Over here it was like no listening like other bands. Yes. To create something. They are very well and still VO is very good guitar player. So just put something new to their sound and make the album, I dunno how to explain it better.

Speaker 2 (00:09:29):

You're explaining it great actually.

Speaker 3 (00:09:32):

I think it is also, this is great guys, great music and we will be at that time the guys who is kind of lucky also to work with them.

Speaker 2 (00:09:44):

Yeah, I mean you have to have the right clients at the right time.

Speaker 3 (00:09:48):

Yes.

Speaker 2 (00:09:50):

And

Speaker 3 (00:09:50):

I think it's very important with the really good production to meet the right people. I mean the right musicians right now a lot of people forget about the overall recording process so they simply do something in their home or whatever in the studio. But for me the sound of the album, it's not mix and mastering, it's the whole recording process

Speaker 2 (00:10:17):

From the ground up.

Speaker 3 (00:10:18):

Yes. You can't make the really outstanding guitar tone for me. You can't do it on the amping session because if the musician is very good one, he can respond what he can hear exactly that time. So he change position of his hand, the attack, all that stuff. And if the tone at the beginning is a very good one, I mean the right one. So he can push the musician much more farther.

Speaker 2 (00:10:49):

I agree. When I first started amping, I was very disappointed because I would get a great tone playing and recording myself or a musician than I'd go to Reamp thinking I could do better, but it wasn't better. It was always worse. And over the years I've been able to get better at it and sometimes you get something to mix and the guitar tone is shit. You can save a terrible tone with amping. But I have never in my life ever heard a reamp sound better than when you got it right with the guitar player actually playing the actual tone. It's just different when they can actually respond to what they're playing through.

Speaker 3 (00:11:31):

Yes, exactly. And also people are trying to record at home or it's in living room and they put the headphones, they focus on the sound, they choose the best sound and they think they get right sound and they're playing how they hear. So usually it's like a lot of more gain during the recording at home of course. And the studio is a little bit less so we focus, he's playing alone, but in the studio some sound engineer is next to and he can control what he's doing like controlling tuning and everything. It's more precisely at the studio. But it always could be surprise if the guy hates the guitar and home with headphones for 20 bucks and go to the studio and he thinking he'll be after amping, he will reach the sound like fontera or decapitated. I would say it is not true.

Speaker 2 (00:12:39):

So I will say that there are some people I know who do the modern version of recording who have gotten very good at it. Buster Oda Home for instance, a Swedish guy. He is basically the evolved version of a bedroom producer and he would tell you that all his techniques are those modern techniques, headphones, putting editing things together and his stuff sounds amazing. There are a few people who I think do it that way and it sounds great, but I think overall you're absolutely right and I think that overall musicians need a producer. I think that's the most important thing. They need a producer. That's what it is. And I know this being a guitar player that it's very, very different when you're recording yourself versus when somebody else is recording you. Because when you're recording yourself, you're thinking about too many things. You're thinking about your headphones or the speakers, you're thinking about how the guitar feels, you're thinking about how it sounds for the speakers. You're thinking about pressing play, pressing stop. Was that take good? Was that take bad? Just so many different things. Whereas when you're working with a good producer, you have one job as a guitar player and that job is to play as well as possible. You don't have to worry about anything else. You can be the best possible musician you can be, which allows the producer to really do their job. I think to me that's the best way to do it.

Speaker 3 (00:14:19):

Also, it's like a really important thing in the studio. So let's say if the band comes to the studio and choose, for example us to work with. So we ask them to bring all the guitars to the studio and we check all of them. We check, we check hands even how's the musicians playing the really strong, how's it called? How strong he hit? Yes, yes. Picking yes. How much of

Speaker 2 (00:14:55):

Who's got the strongest picking hand?

Speaker 3 (00:14:57):

Yes. And also we can say, you know what, please change this guitar in that riff or don't use this one or try to play a different, put different guitar or even we not using your sound. Let's put different by yourself recording on home. It's really, really difficult. I would say it's like no way to go further because you are alone. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (00:15:26):

Yes. I believe that the best work for me, at least for me, maybe there's somebody out there who works best alone, but I feel like the best work I've ever done has been collaborative, has been when I have somebody else to work with, whether it's a producer or in a band situation, I always wrote music better with a partner with my company. Now I could have started it by myself, but it's better because I have my business partners. Working with other people helps you go beyond your own limitations and it helps you find new things. And there's just things you won't think of. What you were talking about with having multiple guitars, having, first of all you might not own multiple guitars. So sometimes studios have guitars you don't already own. But even if you do own multiple guitars, you might be so into the song itself and playing the part that you might not be thinking, okay, this part is kind of black metal E and a lot of interesting relo. My fender strap might sound perfect for it. You might not think that. Whereas the producer might realize we need to be using the Strat on this part. I'm just picking something random. It really, really takes having somebody whose job is to help you do your best. I think to sometimes come up with the right path to take with your equipment and the best use of the equipment. I think alone, a lot of people won't think of these things.

Speaker 3 (00:16:59):

Yes, but I think there is one more thing very important.

Speaker 2 (00:17:05):

What's that

Speaker 3 (00:17:06):

Trust to that producer? I think a lot of musicians sometimes they ask for a help but they don't allow to help. They don't trust. You already said that you make with collaboration, you had the nice stuff and I think a lot of people forget that we are here to help the band. We are here to help them with the sound, with everything. We are not against them. And we have the fresh airs. We didn't compose the reef so we are not emotionally involved, you know what I mean?

Speaker 4 (00:17:46):

Because

Speaker 3 (00:17:48):

I, I start to play on the bass guitar again, I dunno, half year ago. And I go on the rehearsal with the guys and I just figure out very fast that when I start to playing on my bass guitar, I don't think usually think with the music because I think like you said before, how I play if it's fits or how nice my groove is.

Speaker 2 (00:18:18):

Yeah, you're in the mindset of a bass player.

Speaker 3 (00:18:21):

Yes. But the trust for the something engineer producer is very important. And sometimes I think bands say that, okay, we trust you. Yes. But when it comes to the end, they starting to thinking too much maybe sometimes and maybe one they go like two steps back because they afraid. So the vortex said exactly perfect situation because with this organic Sno decapitated album, there was like they trust us 100% with everything from the beginning to the end. I remember that situation when the guys bring those drums. Do you remember ek? There was am drums that was made from, it was even before that. Yes. There was a really, really cheap drums for 200 bucks, like big set. And we said, okay, that's very interesting. We put the mics on it and he started playing and we said, absolutely not. We'll not go anymore with this kind of sound.

Speaker 2 (00:19:34):

This is shit.

Speaker 3 (00:19:35):

Yes. And you know what? They were kind of happy with this shit drums, but we said no, let's spend few more days in the studio. And they paid for it and we are looking for a right sound of the drums. That was same story with the strings on the guitars. Vogue spent I think seven days to find and the studio, I said write strings to his hand. Seven days he called to everyone. He bought each string, he play a lot.

Speaker 2 (00:20:10):

I believe it.

Speaker 3 (00:20:11):

So this is really, I believe trust. And he said, okay, what did guys think? And

Speaker 2 (00:20:18):

This is a very important topic actually. I'm not surprised at all that the decapitated guys came in trusting the people that they hired and allowed you to do your job. So what I've noticed from working with everything from local bands to bigger bands is that the bigger bands tend to trust their producers more. It's oftentimes a lot of the smaller bands, the local bands that have a lot more of the trust issues. And what I think is interesting is the bigger bands have figured out how to work with other people and how to collaborate, which is part of why they're bigger bands. They've learned how to work as a team with each other and then also with the producers that they hire, the mixers they hire, they let them do their job and they have figured out that if you don't trust somebody, maybe you shouldn't hire them.

(00:21:14):

Maybe you should hire somebody you do trust or maybe you should just let people do their job and everything will be better as a result. But I have a lot of producers who listen to URM who are still at the beginning of their careers. One of the questions that they always ask is, the bands won't take my ideas. These bands come in and pay me. But then they don't listen to anything I have to say, what do I do? And the first thing I think is they don't trust you yet. That's what it is. They just don't trust you yet. And that's a tough situation to be in, especially at the beginning of your career because you can't say, well behemoth trusted me. Decapitated trusted me, Vader trusted me. You're here because of them, trust me or don't. You can't say that stuff. You don't have a track record to go off of. And so you have to win their trust right then and there by making good decisions for them. But it's a lot harder when you don't have a track record in my opinion. So my question to you is how do you build trust in your opinion with artists before you have all these awesome bands to show before decapitated, before behemoth, before all that

Speaker 3 (00:22:34):

For us this was always small steps. So of course you can start to record big band. Yes. So what we did at the beginning, we just simply make really low rates for the studio and we record like seven days, I believe me, for seven or eight years. We record seven days per day from morning. Several days per week. Per week, yes. From morning to the evening all the time we were cheap and we finally like the first we had

Speaker 2 (00:23:07):

How many hours a day?

Speaker 3 (00:23:09):

18, 20. Sometimes a lot. A lot.

Speaker 2 (00:23:12):

Were you guys married

Speaker 3 (00:23:14):

Before that? No. No. Absolutely. But there is no other way. The first experience we met every week, new band. So after, I don't know, one year we recorded all local bands, few one or two bands, they play outside of our city. Yes. So somebody else say, oh I like that record. Yes. So maybe we can call to that studio. So we start to record not only local bands. Yes. Then again, there is few records that people released in those days. The simply was like cd. So people just opened the CD and there was always credits.

Speaker 4 (00:24:00):

Credits.

Speaker 3 (00:24:00):

Where was the record? Now I think it's way more difficult because it's all on the internet and sometimes it's even difficult to find information where those guys record this album. Yes,

Speaker 2 (00:24:15):

It's a little bit more difficult but people still figure it out.

Speaker 3 (00:24:18):

Yes. But I think those small steps, yes, you start from the small bands if you do your job good. So after a while you will have something bigger. One, if you put something new and fresh, I think that's important. You don't record exactly like I don't know everybody doing around in the beginning with a talk with the band, what they want from us. If they want to record and we listen those guys kind proposition simply, we just talk between two of us and can we make it it this kind of sound what they proposed. And many times we said no, this is no way. We cannot do it like this because your style music is a bit different. Everything is feeling is a bit different and sometimes it's too difficult for us or for the band. So we said no, we are not going to do that. And also when we are doing recording for example, I started tracking the drums. We ask, do you like the sounds of the drums? And the drummers said, you know what, yes, I think yes, no, no man, do you like it really sound of the drums because, and the mix will be no surprises. I mean so the trust you built from the beginning, some people record the drums and say don't worry. And the mix will be at the mix after the mix. It'll

Speaker 2 (00:25:51):

Be good later. Yeah,

Speaker 3 (00:25:52):

Yeah. Later. No, no, no man please, let's do it. Do you like the snare? I think it's too low. So let's change the tuning, change the snare. Do you like the punch of the snare? Not really. So let's change again. Position the mic, the sound. Do you like how the sounds? I'm not sure. So let's listen to your kind of demo or some kind of different music. And then he say, you know what, I like it for a hundred percent.

Speaker 2 (00:26:23):

So you're taking the time also with little steps to make sure that the client is getting exactly what they wanted. And I think what you said is actually very interesting that if you ask if they like it and they say yeah and you say no, do you really like it? And the reason I think that it's interesting that you said that is because bands won't always tell you what they're thinking right away because a lot of them, they want to be polite, they're afraid to cause a confrontation. They don't feel secure that what they're hearing is the right thing, right? They're not the expert with recording. So they think that maybe it feels weird to them, but they don't trust their own hearing enough to say they don't like something and so they won't say it. But then six months later when it comes out and they're unhappy with it, they'll tell their friends in other bands that they were unhappy with it and you had no idea that they were unhappy because they didn't say anything the whole time they were just saying, yeah, sounds good, sounds good.

(00:27:36):

So I think that you pushing them to really be honest about how they feel and to really, really, really focus on making it exactly what they want it to be. I think that's very, very important. You can't just take the first thing they say and think that it's automatically true. You need to analyze how they respond to you and analyze if they actually are telling you what they think or are they afraid to tell you what they think. For instance, I think gel from Behemoth, I'm sure he will tell you what he thinks. You have to know the personality of who you're working with. There's some people who they will tell you exactly what they're thinking but not everybody's like that. And it's important as a producer to understand who you're working with.

Speaker 3 (00:28:25):

Yeah, you are. Right. But it's again, the trust.

Speaker 2 (00:28:28):

Absolutely.

Speaker 3 (00:28:28):

After those, yes. I think it's very simple when the band come to us, I think we in that kind of situation because Suaava and me really love to listen the bands what they want to say personally, I don't want to, okay, they come to us, they have new ideas and say no, no, no, we can do like that because we don't do like that. So I always want to hear what they want to say, I want to hear how they sound and then try to think if I can improve his stuff or suggest something new, fresh. But first I think listening the band even, it doesn't matter which band is really small one or the big one. I think it's personal communication. Nobody wants to, if you go to, I dunno, for conversation. For conversation, it's like sharing the knowledge of the two people. And it's the same with the music. It's always good to hear what they want to approach. I dunno how to explain what kind of soul.

Speaker 2 (00:29:44):

No, you're explaining it very well.

Speaker 3 (00:29:45):

They want then listen it carefully, I mean really carefully and then think how can I do it better or not better? Maybe different then. But first listen. Yes. And also learn every day from each musician. From each band. For example, I go back again to this album Organic Hano Decapitated. There was a really situation when the vtech, he played the drum solo, which is recording in this album. His first impression. I say, you know what suave? I thinking this is really bad drums solo. That was my first impression. But I was like, of course listen a few times and thinking how he's feeling the groove, something like new style, I was shock after a few hours. So this is how we learn. This is how I learn some kind of new feeling of the taste of the music from the other people. It's very important for us. I think like last sentence from my side, if I stop listening people and if I will decide that okay, I know how to do that, I know everything. For me it's the end of my, I don't know how to say, my knowledge

Speaker 2 (00:31:13):

Career. That's when you stopped getting better.

Speaker 3 (00:31:16):

Yes. Because I learn every day from almost every band. I mean really seriously. Just simply. It's like if your mind is open, you can always find something new and fresh and can use it. Maybe not on that session, maybe one year later. Yes. But for us, for me it's very, very important. Of course, if the people trust you. Yes, yes.

Speaker 2 (00:31:47):

Yeah. On the topic of learning through this podcast and through Nail the Mix and all the other things I do, one thing that I've really, really realized is that all the best mixers and producers and guitar players that I have on the Riff Hard podcast and they all share this, they all share the idea that they're always learning, they're never done, they're never good enough. Which is how they get so good in my opinion, is because they're always getting better. The idea of I know everything I need to know is the moment that somebody says that is the moment that they start going backwards in my opinion is that it's the moment they stop evolving, the best musicians, the best producers, the best mixers. No matter how long they've been around, they're still learning. Man, I remember, I believe I had Bob Clear Mountain on about a year ago and he's still learning things. So if that guy is still learning things, everybody else should still be learning things in my opinion.

Speaker 3 (00:32:52):

Yes, you are completely right.

Speaker 2 (00:32:55):

Yeah. Another example was Jeff Loomis. I remember I was assisting on a record of his on conquering dystopia. I was assisting on the recording many years ago and I remember Jeff came in to my house and we were just talking about guitar. We had known each other for a while, but he told me he was getting lessons. Well he was already in his forties at that point in time and he was this 2013, he had already done Nevermore and was already best guitar players. Period. This guy's getting lessons. He doesn't need lessons. He's fucking Jeff Loomis. But that's the point, the reason he's so good is because he's always trying to get better.

Speaker 3 (00:33:38):

Yes. I think that's the clue. I think for not only also for music, for everything you do. I mean it's like general for me, general common stuff and I don't know about you guys, but I think I'll learn a lot every day from my wife. So this is the way go to the perfection. There is no perfection, no perfection, but the way is a way to go to do. But you never probably reach perfection. But the way to go for sure you'll never reach. I will never read.

Speaker 2 (00:34:13):

I definitely am learning how to be a better person from the lady in my life. That's for sure. Out of curiosity then, so you gave the example of decapitated where you knew that there's a new sound that can be created that they're coming to you with the raw materials for something that hasn't been done yet. What about in the case of something like behemoth where he has such a detailed vision for what that is, what behemoth is supposed to be. Is your role the same do you think?

Speaker 3 (00:34:48):

No, I think it's not for my taste. It wasn't the same.

Speaker 2 (00:34:52):

How do you approach something like that? They've thought of everything.

Speaker 3 (00:34:56):

For me it was like another session like everyone but way more longer. Because for me it's like the bigger bands can afford more experimentation they can use, they have time to check the whole even strange possibilities that regular bands, they don't have time to do that. Because if you have, I dunno, one week session, you can't experiment like five days with the guitars. You just simply listen those guys listen how he plays and then you think, okay, I can do it in that way. Yes. But with bigger band it's okay. I let's say I know that I have two or three weeks for the guitars. Yes. So I can even help him to choose the guitar, the pickup, the good thing. It's in that kind of really big session. We can help him to choose from every small step and then we can help to create from beginning everything.

(00:36:15):

Even we help with the vision because with the Behe we also talk a lot about the vision, how organic is supposed to be. Should we, I don't know, copy and past or how if we should edit or how should we edit or know even those, because they record a lot of albums before they know very good studio flow, studio work. So somehow they also want to put to get something new. But for me it was like, I dunno how I can explain you to be honest. I think for example, we start to record with Bemo, not really so far. So our first meeting with this guy, those guys was from, what's the album Al? We did the guitars and there was meeting with those guys and they record in different places with somebody else and behind us, they didn't want to work with us Al. He said, I don't want to work with them. And of course he didn't say to us, but when he's got to the point and he said, you know what? He want to work with us. We had had some problem with recording guitars, spent too much time recording guitars. So he decide, ask us to record guitars with him and there was a very smooth session and he said we'd like to record with next album. Actually the Satanist was the next one. We record all of them from here in the studio. But it's again, I think it's the trust

Speaker 2 (00:38:18):

And small steps.

Speaker 3 (00:38:19):

Yes, yes, yes. We first we make the guitars because for the guys was like, when you recall four weeks guitars you can be crazy if that tree is in tuning or no, that note is in tuning. They're in the tempo. Not too fast, not too slow. We need to help them. Very fast judgment. Okay, it's not good. Oh you are too high. No, it's too low. One more, you are too fast. You are too slow. So they trust us for the GI guitars first and the session was like sua very smooth. And then they decide to next album do with us. And also it's like things house vertek for example, working with musicians. So he asked those guys bring his sound to the studio and he's playing and he's captured the sound and the ek he made by him alone. The sound maybe positive, like something different.

(00:39:25):

And then at the end we say, you know what? Let's take a blind test. This is your sound A or B or C. And please close the eyes and listen to those three or two ways and choose the best and the people choosing the best sound guitars to feed with the drums and et cetera. So the people not starting to push you, I want to my sound, but they're choosing the best sound from a few of them and we ek and we not really push each other. If some guy, he's really precise vision of the sound of the album, the song, okay, let's do like this. We capture the sound and always we make a different way. We propose something different and then is a blind test and they're choosing the final version.

Speaker 2 (00:40:28):

That's a great way to do it. I remember I used to do that when the Kemper first came out, people didn't want to use it. Sometimes it did sound better than whatever the other options were, but sometimes people just didn't want to use it because they didn't want to use it. And so I would do blind tests of the Kemper and then whatever else and let them pick. And oftentimes they pick the Kemper tone and then suddenly they were okay with it. Once they do the blind test and they hear that they like something better and then they're okay with it. And that's a great way to earn somebody's trust because they're getting to make the decision, right? It's their decision. There's no bias. They're not feeling like you push them into it. I think that that's a great way, that's a great way to do it. I also like what you guys said about you let them come in with their sound and do their sound and then alone you're going to come up with your own option. So not doing it in front of them or pushing it in their face or whatever. Do it on your own time and then present them the options. I think that that's great.

Speaker 3 (00:41:40):

I think sometimes it's very difficult to explain the other people. So okay, you are using that guitar fly, I don't know, five, 10 years maybe it's time to try something new. So the question will be why for me, why not? But sometimes when you simply suave say change something and play them and simply say us which one is better? They even don't know what's the difference between them say A or B or C. That really helps. That really helps us a lot. Yes, a lot with the work, especially with a lot of bands. I mean really if the small one and the Biggers one that really helps. We like to say we really take care of everything. What is in the beginning. So how he's playing, for example, drummer drums to record the capture, the sound, what skin we using, what tune, what's kind of scenario you using, what they want to sound like. Everything is really important. We take care with small very important details. Even like we put in the marker tapes on the carpet, whereas chair, drummer, chair sitting because we know it's like in two days the moving few centimeters in the back so they change the sound. So we really take care, the musicians see these kind of things and they trust us. Simply trust us.

Speaker 2 (00:43:17):

Yeah, absolutely. Well I think musicians like to see attention to detail. They like to see that you really, really care about their project. I mean it's their whole life to them when they're working on it. So when the person that they hire or the team that they hire really, really give a shit about all the details. That's inspiring. And I also think that what you said about small steps with the behemoth example of guitars first I think some people would've gotten the gig for recording the guitars and been very disappointed that it's not the whole album. Instead of looking at it as an opportunity to do a great job with the guitars and see where that leads, forget that it's not the whole album, this is the job, the job is the guitars and do the best job possible with the guitars. I think some people would have not been able to get their ego out of the way.

Speaker 3 (00:44:16):

Yes, I think you are right. It wasn't easy for me at the beginning. I always push myself why I can do that also. But I think it took a time for me to understand that sometimes it's very good to even allow to other people to finish something. It's like playing with the band. If you are musician you are sometimes too much involved in the composing stuff or whatever. So it's good to somebody else to record that. And to be honest, it will be very difficult to me to mix the album after three months session.

Speaker 4 (00:44:55):

Yes.

Speaker 3 (00:44:55):

Because there is no fresh air for that. If I supposed to mix it, I probably, I will need to rest before I mix in two months. Don't listen to forget the old details that was on those session. And even I think after that break couldn't be easy because if you spend so much time on it, you are involved like a band into that. And sometimes I think it's good to make step one step behind, okay, I did my job over here so peace continue if you want will be better. Yes or different for sure that I would do that. Yes. So it is good to let people finish. Yes, yes. And like Vertex said in the beginning over 20 years ago where it start with the studio and there was always small steps we knew. So if the band will be happy our jobs, he'll be back.

Speaker 2 (00:45:57):

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 3 (00:45:58):

Sometimes he want to try something new, but we said don't worry if he like it. He's looking for a best way for his career of the music or the sound. So really it's like a perfect place. Let's let him choose whatever the musician want to. So it's really, yeah, if natural way, if they will like it, they'll come back. If not for that album, maybe for the, I don't know, for the next one or another one or maybe again for one song or for a guitars. Yes or for something else.

Speaker 2 (00:46:34):

You never know. I remember the first time that I had a band have somebody else mix something that I recorded a long, long time ago. My ego was not happy about it. I didn't understand and I was pissed off. I wanted to do the whole thing. But man, the first time that I had someone really good mix something that I produced, it was an amazing experience. I remember I had Colin Richardson mix my band that I recorded long time ago and I didn't realize it could sound so good. It was an unbelievable experience for me. And I realized that that point that you know what, sometimes it does take other people to fully realize the vision for something. Sometimes that collaboration will take it to places that I couldn't take it by myself. That kind of stuff stopped bothering me and really what I started focusing on and what I think people should focus on is the part of the project that is yours, the part that you are hired for, what you are working on make that the best it can possibly be. And that's what people will remember. If you're not mixing it and the mix is fucked up, that's got nothing to do with you. But if you recorded the guitars, they should be the best fucking guitars possible. And that's what people will remember.

Speaker 3 (00:47:59):

Yes. Work between us, two of us, we are totally different guys. We are brothers but we are totally different with some kind of taste with the music, with the talking, with the feeling, with reading different books, we get totally different lives and we have two many times totally different vision with the music, with the sound. But together, if you want to work with someone and listen, I listen to the vortex and he's listening to me, it's like something great because it's like two things goes to the one and it is always for us it's work like this. We help each other not like say I do the best I can make by myself. You know what I mean? It is it's different partnership. Yes. Partnership is the same thing with if somebody trusts to even give some records to mastering or mixing, same thing.

Speaker 2 (00:49:15):

Alright, so that brings me to this. What is the difference between both of your roles when you're working on an album? Is there a specialty that one of you has? I noticed with a lot of production teams, one person will do guitars and drums, the other person will do vocals and I don't know, vocals and song arrangements. Do you guys have specialties? Is there a way that you divide the work?

Speaker 3 (00:49:42):

Well I will tell you something about the EK because he's guy, he's not really probably he would say good words but himself. But okay, this guy is really genius with guitar sound really? It's like all I love when he's working on the draw on the guitars he's captured. But this is true because that's why I'm talking first and you're listening. No. Yes. Really I'm always shook because he's listening to some kind of sound. For me it's like one color of the sound but not for him. You know what I mean? He's into the small details in the sound. He can capture the really original sound with a few minutes is not take a lot for me. What took maybe days or I mean I put SM 57 mic on the cabinet and I crank up a little bit SI said I'm okay, I'm done with the sound of guitar and of course I'm joking, but it's like this kind of situation but not for vtech is really into the sound of the color of the sound of the bass or the guitars and the vocals perspective from low to high.

Speaker 2 (00:51:03):

It

Speaker 3 (00:51:04):

Is very interesting. So that's about ek.

Speaker 2 (00:51:06):

So would you say that Voytek is more about little details and you are more to do with the workflow?

Speaker 3 (00:51:16):

Actually I think I'm more like EK usage. I think he's also more on the drums. He was a drummer. I don't know the crazy stuff about the tuning all the Toms.

Speaker 2 (00:51:31):

Yeah, all that shit.

Speaker 3 (00:51:33):

Yes. Right now we work for more than, I think it's one and a half year we are working on our software drum software which is very close to the end. So taking with him high head, high head sound for two weeks, man you can be crazy. Two weeks with only one high head to capture the right high head And question, do you think it's okay if it's open one centimeter and five millimeters or it's too open and then one centimeter, eight millimeters and you can hear the difference? Yes. In the high head. Yes.

Speaker 2 (00:52:15):

For people listening, sampling symbols is like audio waterboarding. It takes so long, it takes forever for just for people listening who don't know, it takes forever.

Speaker 3 (00:52:27):

Yes. But I think both of us take about the details.

Speaker 2 (00:52:32):

Just different details.

Speaker 3 (00:52:33):

Yes, different details. It's also you must know that it's not also easy to work together with us because sometimes, I dunno, he's working on something very evolved like few days and I came over here and say him no man, it's not good. And the reaction the other people because, and the same is opposite. Sometimes I work on the GI guitar tone, ask him and I really like it how it sounds. Sounds like shit man sounds

Speaker 2 (00:53:04):

Like shit for me. This is shit.

Speaker 3 (00:53:07):

Yes, yes. And then it's like we are cold water on your head and of course there is few minutes fight. Yes. Then why you say that? It sounds good. Yes. And then after that you can listen and if you calm down and check again, maybe there's something good in that maybe I should check it again and change something. It's not also easy for both of us. For both of us it's not happy marriage for 20 years. Yes, of course it's again trust. But the second we can handle more correlation between us because we are the brothers. So I think if Suave wasn't my brother, probably it was like a lot of regular fights because you know how it works, you know how the studio works, how many work, I dunno. I still love that job. I mean really I love the whole recording, the whole production process. So if the bank come to here, I'm like 100% here. So sometimes if Sak said okay, change this because it doesn't sound good. So sometimes difficult to handle that. Yes. Okay, I will change that. Yes, because you were involved, you was sure that it's absolutely perfect one. Yeah, but it's got to have this absolutely great thing to have the second person which tell you really honest if it's the shit one or no, it's okay. But he thinks like it's really shit. One,

Speaker 2 (00:55:01):

You have to really trust each other for that.

Speaker 3 (00:55:03):

Yes, yes, yes. But of course it is like yes, it's difficult but difficult because in the beginning, if you are working with some people, you're trying to put some right words. We

Speaker 2 (00:55:15):

Call it sugar coating.

Speaker 3 (00:55:17):

Yes. But we are brothers, we know we always be together. We slice. There is no gray. So it's black or white? Yes, yes. No. Okay. It could be like that. Yes. No, it's a good one or shitty one. There is no stuff between that. Yes. Do you like that sn? No. It sounds like shit. Like wouldn't. So it's simply answer and simply question, answer, do you like that rule? Yes or no? And he said no, other than what it's really crazy. But is that working? How we working with the clients, we can talk about the sound of the punch of the present, something like this. But between us it's totally different.

Speaker 2 (00:56:03):

Sounds to me though that having that other voice is super helpful.

Speaker 3 (00:56:08):

Yes, yes. It's like sending the mixes to another guy with the fresh air. I don't know. Even if Ava create I some kind of sound or I create something and because mostly we don't work at the same time at the same room because it's not I think obvious for all the people. So let's say we start let guitars today. So I usually start with the guitars and s listen those guitars and he's come back, he's maybe at the beginning of the session where we choose dams to hold that stuff. Talk about that. Choosing the guitars. Yes. And to choose the guitars. But if he goes, I dunno, for a coffee and after he come back after one hour and say, I don't like that sound because he's fresh ears. Yes. He say you must change something because And there is explanation. Yes, because I dunno, I can hear exactly some kind of notes or I dunno, the gain is too big or too small or so it's simply I trust his judgment.

(00:57:19):

Of course sometimes I don't agree because I think it's supposed to be different one, but I trust his judgment. Same thing with me. It's like those situation, I remember the band when I have to leave the studio, leave the city. There was in the beginning, beginning like 20 years ago, and I went for a few days outside of cities of the studio and he stay alone with the band. And it was all those days really worried about how session goes on. Is it smooth? Is the guys happy, the sound is correct. And I was back to the studio and he played the music and I was shocked. That was really excellent sounding album. And he did everything and I was like, you know what? This is great job. I will really trust you from now on I will trust you. Because you did really by your own and you surprise not every me but the band, everything. So really it's good to trust to someone even if it's difficult in the beginning because he's older one. Yes, yes. I'm the younger always.

Speaker 2 (00:58:35):

So when you guys work in different rooms, is it kind of like one person works on certain instruments while another person works on other instruments? Is that kind of the workflow?

Speaker 3 (00:58:48):

I think not exactly, because it's very hard to, I dunno, I can't make the guitar tone without hearing the drum tone

Speaker 4 (00:58:58):

Because

Speaker 3 (00:58:59):

I think everything is connected. So mostly let's say usually we split the session when this coming to recording stuff, we have everything for the clients and for our fresh heirs we split half day. He works with the client. The second I'm working and the next day is opposite one, we can switch between us very fast and sometimes band even don't know if we are changed. So they even didn't capture, oh it's your ek. Oh, I was thinking it's still working with the Suave because we have same kind of workflow. Workflow with details. You say if it's ek, this reef, some sort of tone for me also. And that's the same, we have similar ears for that. Yes, yes, yes. The kind of details. And it's, to be honest, it's very hard to record when you really record help the band. I don't know to suggest to change the position on the neck. I don't know. I dunno even change the game, the pickup, the guitar, it's very difficult to be so involved for the eight hours. I mean for me it's very difficult to be focused 200%.

Speaker 2 (01:00:18):

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 3 (01:00:20):

I am really tired if I'm really focused for four, five hours, I'm not so how to say

Speaker 2 (01:00:27):

Sharp?

Speaker 3 (01:00:28):

Sharp at the beginning. So that's why we decided with Suave is good for us and for our clients. If we look like during the half of the day we'll change and then he comes with the free, I'm tired and I feel that I'm tired. He comes here. Okay, let's continue. Perfect. And it's for me, it's very nice stuff. I'm really like it. Also, it's good thing about the trust and good thing with the vtech because if someone said, let's say we like to finish whole entire album up to for example, some kind of date like April 12. So Voytek is really take care about these kind of things must be done by this date. There is no way we can be one hour late with this kind of situation. It's good thing he's always blaming me, you know what, let's speed up work because kind of flow because we cannot finish our job to this date. So it's really good to have this person like his in the studio on the next door. But also it's good to have great assistant helper in the studio so you can trust too. It's really, really important. So we have a car, this guy, he's working with us and really he's making a huge, unbelievable, great job. He's like third part of us really. He's like really stick with us. Very close. We're very involved with kind of project with ideas. He's really a great guy.

Speaker 2 (01:02:17):

Hey everybody, if you're enjoying this podcast then you should know that it's brought to you by URM Academy. URM Academy's mission is to create the next generation of audio professionals by giving them the inspiration and information to hone their craft and build a career doing what they love. You've probably heard me talk about Nail the Mix before. And if you're a member, you already know how amazing it is. The beginning of the month, nail the mix members, get the raw multi-tracks to a new song by artists like Lama, God Angels and Airwaves. Knock loose OPEC Shuga, bring me the Horizon. Gaira asking Alexandria Machine Head and Papa Roach among many, many others over 60 at this point. Then at the end of the month, the producer who mixed it comes on and does a live streaming walkthrough of exactly how they mix the song on the album and takes your questions live on air.

(01:03:09):

And these are guys like TLA Will Putney, Jens Borin, Dan Lancaster to I Mattson, Andrew Wade, and many, many more. You'll also get access to Mix Lab, which is our collection of dozens of bite-sized mixing tutorials that cover all the basics as well as Portfolio Builder, which is a library of pro quality, multi-track cleared for use in your portfolio. So your career will never again be held back by the quality of your source material. And for those of you who really want to step up their game, we have another membership tier called URM Enhance, which includes everything I already told you about. And access to our massive library of fast tracks, which are deep, super detailed courses on intermediate and advanced topics like game staging, mastering low end and so forth. It's over 500 hours of content. And man, let me tell you, this stuff is just insanely detailed.

(01:04:03):

Enhanced members also get access to one-on-ones, which are basically office hour sessions with us and mixed rescue, which is where we open up one of your mixes and fix it up and talk you through exactly what we're doing at every step. So if any of that sounds interesting to you, if you're ready to level up your mixing skills in your audio career, head over to URM Academy to find out more. I think that a great assistant allows producers and mixers to do more and better work. It's interesting that you said about the five hours of focus, four hours of focus. I'm kind of the same way. I work many hours a day, but there's four or five hours where I'm at my best for sure. It's the first four or five hours of the day. Like talking to you guys right now. You guys are the first thing for me today.

(01:04:53):

So you guys are getting my best attention. Everything after this is going to be a little bit worse. But yeah, I have about four or five hours where I'm really at my best. And then it's not that I turn off and become stupid or stupider, I'm just not my best anymore. And I remember when working in the studio as a producer, those four or five hours would be great and then we could still do work. But I wasn't as sharp and I was, for some reason I didn't care. It's not that I was trying to not care, but I didn't care the way I did before. My brain just wasn't on it. And so you let little things go that you wouldn't let before. Is that really out of tune? No, it sounds fine. Or whatever. It becomes harder and harder to make the decisions, the important decisions because you're getting tired.

(01:05:48):

You're getting tired and your brain isn't as locked in. And I've noticed that also musicians too who you're recording, they also have a window of time where they're at their best and then after that you could keep recording them if you have to. But they also have a window of what their best. And I've noticed, especially with drummers, sometimes the best thing to do is to stop, come back the next day when they're at their best. I think it's a very important thing to recognize. I don't know what it's like in Poland, but I know that here in America we have a culture of overworking. People like to overwork. It's just in our culture, people work their fucking asses off and it's like a point of pride to say that you worked 16 hours or something like that. A lot of people in the studio, they come in with that cultural programming where they think that if we didn't go for 14 or 15 hours, we wasted time.

(01:06:49):

It becomes very difficult once you get past those five or six hours or something to tell somebody, I think you've done your best for the day. I think that it would be better if you came back tomorrow, you're getting tired, I can tell you're not playing that great anymore. We could do tomorrow in 15 minutes. What's going to take us three hours tonight and it'll be better tomorrow. And it's hard to get people to be okay with it because they're so programmed to work insane amount of hours. So there's this weird psychological aspect to it, but I think trust goes into that. If they do trust you and you say, yeah, if you say, trust me, it will be better if we take the break and then you come back and then the next day it actually is better, then that gives you a little bit more of their trust. But I have found that what you're saying to be absolutely true and absolutely relevant on lots of sessions for me. Have you noticed that too with musicians?

Speaker 3 (01:07:49):

Yes, very often. Yeah. We realize the best decision is always in the morning. So we have from about eighth to 11 our hours to make really important decision during the mix, especially the mixes, we really take care about this kind of situation. After 3:00 PM we not judge our work. We say, you know what? I hear something, but that could be not true. You know what I mean? So we ask, usually go back to the session, to the sound in the morning we say the truth, but it's really interesting about the musicians because for me it was kind of surprised. For example, let's play drummers play through the six hours on the drums. So I was thinking always if the drummer, it's tired, it's playing weaker, it's playing softer. But in the experience, my experience is different. When the drummer is tired, he play much, much harder. You know what I mean? So after six or eight hours on the drums, he playing really, really hard. He cannot play soft. So usually when we go back in the morning, we go back in the morning and say, let's please continue this song and they play softer and then let's warm up and it must be really few more hours and they become really athletic, very strong. The old muscles must go on drums to play reach the same sound from the evening. That's very interesting

Speaker 2 (01:09:38):

Actually. I've noticed that too. Okay, so with drums, I think the window is more like 10 hours actually with the really good drummers, it's not six for me it's six. But I have noticed something that I always do with drummers is when we're doing drums, first is I make them warm up but not just warm up. I tell them that I want them to feel like they do four songs into a live set. I need them to feel that same feeling of looseness and power that they have when there are already three or four songs into the show. And until they feel like that we're not recording. Because I know that it takes a while to get going. So if that means that we need to put the mute pads on the drums so that they don't destroy the heads or whatever and you're going to play for two hours on a loop, then that's what it's going to be.

(01:10:33):

But we are not recording until you feel like you're on song three or four in the show. And that's worked really, really well for me because then you don't have that problem of the weak morning takes and they get a little frustrated with me making them do that, but they're always thankful when they hear how good it sounds because drums, out of all the instruments, drums, well, it matters with every instrument, but drums, especially in this kind of music, it makes all the difference how hard somebody is hitting It makes all the difference. Yeah, the tone, everything is so different when someone is really hitting hard

Speaker 3 (01:11:18):

And you're absolutely right, it is the sound of a human sounds not only instrument the shelves and the skin, but really arms strong man or a different feeling actually it's very good tip with that drummer feeling, I need to use that. Oh thanks. Usually we ask them to just simply to warm up and we also usually try to let him to play the song and they don't know even if they record, we just simply record all those takes. But what s say, also it's for me, it's some kind of level of the loudness of the drummer, how hard he's hit. I can compare it with how the guitar player hits the guitar. So you need to have the right

Speaker 2 (01:12:18):

Velocity.

Speaker 3 (01:12:19):

Yes. Not too hard, not too soft.

Speaker 2 (01:12:22):

If

Speaker 3 (01:12:22):

You hit too hard, the tone of the drums, it's not nice. It's cracked. You can hear the tone only attack only. Yes. What says is very good that I think they don't control their body and just simply try to hit harder, harder and they don't control it. So that's why they hit harder at evening. It not means it is better, but it's harder. And sometimes they lose everything, but this power goes on. It's like, yes, I can go.

Speaker 2 (01:12:54):

Oh yeah, they lose their control.

Speaker 3 (01:12:56):

Yes,

Speaker 2 (01:12:56):

Yes, yes, yes,

Speaker 3 (01:12:57):

Of course. Not everyone not, but it is like that's drummers. Yes, and I think that the absolutely great stuff of that, how to say modern digital workflow

(01:13:13):

Is that we have the digitally controlled mixing desk so we can split the session. If the drummer is tired, we can simply recall of the session of the guitars and okay man, you did a great job during those five hours, so let's rest. You can rest, we can do something else. The same with the bass. If you start with the bass, I don't know, it's very hard to play the whole day. Yes. So let's split that session for three days. I need to focus you three days, three hours every day and focus really on stuff that you are playing instead of the whole day. I think that's the beauty stuff in the past wasn't so easy because always an analog and if you had the sound of the drums on the desk, I couldn't change it until we finished with the drums.

Speaker 2 (01:14:08):

Man, I think that's important with vocals too, because I always thought that it was really funny with metal records. I mean in a lot of different kinds of music vocals are going to be what makes or breaks it, right? If somebody hates the vocals, they're going to have a hard time listening to listening to it. Even in death metal people have to like the vocals. The vocals are so important, but the traditional way of doing metal is you spend four weeks on everything else or five weeks on everything else and then two days on vocals. That's crazy. So one thing I started doing was the moment we have some rhythm guitars, start doing vocals like an hour a day or two hours a day and then take a day off and then two hours and then a day off so that the whole time that you're recording, you're getting vocals.

(01:15:01):

And what happens is, first of all, they don't destroy their voice, but second of all, you have more time to make sure that the parts are as good or the right parts. Because if you do the whole album in two days, first of all, you're going to get some songs that are not at the vocalist best. You're not. And then you don't have the time to really analyze if the vocals are as good as they could be or as they should be. Then again, I'll say there are some exceptions, there are some vocalists who are so badass that they literally will do everything in two hours on a death metal record and it's perfect. But I think that that's rare.

Speaker 3 (01:15:43):

Yeah. Remember ek, we had a band,

Speaker 2 (01:15:46):

I'm sure you've had those.

Speaker 3 (01:15:49):

They want to record really fast, all album in I think of four or three days and you can say what the vocalists did. Vtech, you're talking about thinking the same. Yes. Same from, so of course there was some alcohol on the session for the vocalist because he couldn't sing without the alcohol, so he just simply start drinking the alcohol. On the first song, he recorded all of these songs and three hours, I think three hours for whole album. And at the end he was totally drunk. He was laid down on the floor because of the Polish metal Polish band. And then next day he wake up and he check the lyrics and he sings the same lyrics for three or four songs. He was so drunk he even didn't recognize that. You know what I mean? That was unbelievable. That's

Speaker 2 (01:16:56):

Hilarious.

Speaker 3 (01:16:58):

And we not recognize also, so that's the fast sessions sometimes it could be like this. There is some kind of, how to say Metal re I don't know how to explain that. That is very difficult to understand. Even I sit in the metal for more than 20 years. It's very difficult to understand what they think.

Speaker 2 (01:17:23):

Oh yeah,

Speaker 3 (01:17:24):

It's some kind of specific styles. Yes,

Speaker 2 (01:17:26):

Man, we just had a crypto on nail the mix. Flo found the original tape from FOA file, and so Christian Donaldson who's the mixer producer and he's in the band, he did a nail the mix with the original and mixed it modern, but it sounds amazing by the way. But I tried to read the lyrics along with those vocals. I could not understand a fucking word and I can understand this kind of music. I've been listening to this music since the nineties. I could not understand a fucking word. I was looking at the lyrics and I was listening to them. I have no idea. Sometimes you have no idea what the hell they're saying.

Speaker 3 (01:18:16):

But we had the bands that, let's say there is a last day of the session and the singer came to the mixing room and says with coffee, okay, we have, I dunno, two hours left for that session, but I still have two songs to sing. Don't worry. I just give me 20 minutes. I need to finish the lyrics and I come back and then we just simply record that. And it was okay, believe me or do Yes was perfect. I was surprised. Surprised. I was shocked how good.

Speaker 2 (01:18:57):

That's why I said it. There's some metal vocalists out there that are that good where it's better to just let them be themselves. It's better to let them come up with the lyrics at the last minute and do it in 20 minutes and it's going to be perfect and it doesn't need to be anything else, but it's risky because there's a lot of metal vocalists who are not like that and giving them the two days or whatever is not a disaster, but it's definitely compromising the quality. There's a lot of vocalists that do need time. They do need time, man. There's just some guys or girls who have their technique perfect and they know how to write lyrics super fast and they're just one of those people, like a jazz guitar player who can improvise a solo perfectly one shot. And it's great. I think that there are people like that who exist, but to me those are the exception. Those kinds would come in three times a year or something. Whereas the rest of the year I'm dealing with normal people and I feel like the more time that I can give the vocalists, the more rest I could give the vocalists the better. I mean, have you guys noticed that? Is it that way for you?

Speaker 3 (01:20:19):

Yes, I think it's works very good. We actually do that for, I dunno, for last few years. And we don't allow to sing. If we record the band first time, we never allow him to sing during last days Never. I always ask them, I need to hear how you sing. Mostly like you said, we do the same. We have the first song with the written guitars or two of them. So try your vocal, let's use those two hours and listen how it sounds. Today we finished the head in your recording and it was the same and with Neral was the same. He came to us for two hours for the recording vocals and then we just make the fast mixdown of the song and goes home. And after two days, three days, he comes back and again next song or few corrections to the first one. And again, yes. And in that way everything, it's like what's going on? You know how it sounds, what it's supposed to be added, if it sounds the right one or we should change something. Yes, I think for the vocals it's the very, very important and sometimes last sentence, I noticed that some of the vocalists has the best voice not at the beginning of the session.

Speaker 4 (01:21:50):

Yes,

Speaker 3 (01:21:51):

You allow him to sing like two, three hours and then again next day, two, three hours, then they can rest like two, three days and then start the right voice as a many tricks, how to reach the sound of the vocals metal voice. It's like if the band, so we not satisfy the sound of vocals, we can also change the microphone. That's normal. But also we can ask them to drink something like cold hot water or tea and just change the sound a lot. So we've got this kind of experience to work with and we also, we can say, you know what? This is no more singing today. Please go upstairs because we have a room upstairs for musicians and please rest. And we go back for example for two days, but also it's like 20 years ago I didn't know about this. It's like if some metal voices was get tired, they go and it was worse. The guys was really desperate to finish these vs. Very quickly they go to the pharmacy and try to put the pills, some kind of pills on the throat to lose because they very damage. This is really not help a lot.

Speaker 2 (01:23:15):

I know it's a bad idea,

Speaker 3 (01:23:16):

But we met some kind of guy who was like show us some kind of special technique how to breathe after a really long session during 15 minutes of exercise on the throat, his voice go back to the normal was shock. So this is kind of school, so the people, the special metal heads, they should know how to work with the voice. Not only put some shot of vodka and start to singing but also think how to cue voice. Control. The voice, yes. Simple control.

Speaker 2 (01:23:56):

There's proper technique for screaming. A friend of mine, her name is Mary Zimmer and she's got a YouTube channel called Voice Hacks. But she talks a lot for people who are interested in learning about proper techniques so that a screamer doesn't fuck themselves up. The voice hacks YouTube channel covers a lot of these kinds of exercises. Also for URM subscribers, we did a fast track with her for producers who need to communicate with vocalists about how to communicate with them about how to fix their technique if you're not a vocalist without being a vocalist, how to communicate with vocalists in ways to get around a lot of the problems like their voice getting tired to prevent blowout or just to get the most out of them. But I want to key in on something you said said that sometimes what you do the first two days isn't really the beginning of the vocal session.

(01:24:59):

It's really day three. But you know what, dude, I've noticed that with a lot of things. I feel that way with drums too. So say that I would spend three or four days getting drum sounds, maybe more seven days, the most ever for me has been 10. But just say spent a few days getting drum sounds and then you start recording. But I feel like still through the first two songs that drum sound is still evolving and not just that the drummers getting comfortable and something happens around the third or fourth song that I feel like the drum sound is finally what it needs to be and the drummer is finally playing the way they need to play and then everything they do from there sounds way better than the first two songs. So oftentimes will go back and redo those songs. And I've noticed that with mixing, I've noticed that with writing songs or riffs too that I would start writing and think I have something cool and then by the time I get to the third riff, that's really the first riff. That's really the first cool riff and then everything I wrote before it I trash. I've noticed that a lot with lots of different musical things that the first stuff you do, maybe you're just getting warmed up still. It's important to not always though. Not always. So it's important to recognize them I think

Speaker 3 (01:26:26):

Yes, mostly. All right. But I had sometimes feelings that especially during the mixing, that you can catch something in the first mixes.

Speaker 2 (01:26:37):

Oh yeah, for sure.

Speaker 3 (01:26:38):

And there is very hard to beat it lighter maybe. Okay, there is some kind of details. Yes, of course you can make them better. I think during the mixes sometimes I had feeling that, okay, this one is the good one and sometimes I can make the mixdown of the first one continue make some corrections and then I rest. I come back and listen the first one and the second one, the first one was way better overall of course there is still something you need to be fixed, but

Speaker 2 (01:27:14):

It

Speaker 3 (01:27:15):

Has something

Speaker 2 (01:27:16):

That energy.

Speaker 3 (01:27:18):

Yes. But with the instruments, we very often recorded the first songs again.

Speaker 2 (01:27:27):

Well I agree with you with the mixing. I think it's important to be able to recognize that because I've had both things happen and I've seen both things happen with other mixers that sometimes they get it in the first 45 minutes of mixing like the sound for the whole album. There it is. Boom. 45 minutes later I've seen them go into this weird mental state where they have a hard time accepting that they got the sound for the album in 45 minutes because it should take longer. So it can't be right. It's impossible. So they'll keep on going and then they'll make it worse. I've seen that happen many times. I think it's very important to be able to recognize when you do get something from the beginning just to be able to recognize it. It's hard to do. But then also sometimes man, sometimes I've noticed that it just does take some mixes don't cooperate, they don't play nice and it does take a little while before you figure out the right approach I think. Yeah,

Speaker 3 (01:28:28):

I remember one year ago we did some kind of hardcore band and we did the mixes and band loved them, but we just simply send them to the reviews and we didn't listen for a week and we power up. Oh man. I mean we need to change that because

Speaker 2 (01:28:47):

Not good.

Speaker 3 (01:28:48):

Yes. Oh and we changed. That was way better. I mean way better. But I think it's very important of course to catch when you are go too far or even, I dunno, sometimes you record if you think that that's the one. So simply just make small sample of it. Yes. And save it and go further. Yes. And then simply compare, make the bright test if it's still your new one is the better one or

Speaker 2 (01:29:21):

Back to the blind test. That is really one of the best ways to really know if you're making progress or not such a simple but foolproof method. I think

Speaker 3 (01:29:32):

Always what to try. Yes.

Speaker 2 (01:29:34):

One thing I've noticed with mixes is whenever I would get to a point where I'm feeling fuck yeah, I would do a save as and then whenever I would be getting to a point where I'm about to try something that could take it in a completely other direction, another save as so that no matter, even though I'm getting backups constantly, my pro tools is set to back up every minute. But still I want to know when I have felt awesome about it and I also want to know when I have taken a gamble and possibly derailed it so I can go back to where I was. Do you guys do anything like that

Speaker 3 (01:30:20):

During the mix? We making a lot of samples of the mix. Sometimes we, during the mixing we starting like 27 40 different way of the mix. So this is our workflow during the mix we are making a lot version of the mix. We knew we could be tired but we have after a few days or next day, we'll listen all of the mixes, we don't really take care if it's more in or evening, but mass sounds must be something to this mix. And then we go back to this kind of version and we make details. So it's very long story with the mixes about choosing. So sometimes EK he's doing but his own mixes I'm doing by myself and we listen all those version and we discuss and everything. So man, it's really hard sometimes, but it really sometimes even don't know how much we spend in the mixes. Sometimes we have for band what we just done, we have a 56 version of the mixes. The band only know about three of them.

Speaker 2 (01:31:39):

I was about to ask, that was my next question actually. 56 versions that they wanted or

Speaker 3 (01:31:45):

No, no of course not. But you also need to know what is the for SUA mixed version, even if he change one and a half DB or one DB of the kick, some kind of special frequency.

Speaker 2 (01:31:59):

That's a mixed version.

Speaker 3 (01:32:00):

Yes, for mixed version. So of course for regular people even they can hear the difference. We even don't show them because it really no sense to show them. Yes. For me in the mix, the most important is to catch something.

Speaker 2 (01:32:18):

What do you mean

Speaker 3 (01:32:19):

In that music? I dunno how to explain. It's like of course the nice frequency response compression, blah blah blah. Yes, it's very important. It's good that it's absolutely great if the mix has something unique, some kind of yes energy. I don't know how to

Speaker 2 (01:32:38):

Explain it. Energy or identity or essence. I know what you're saying. It is one of those things that is very hard to verbalize, but you know when you hear it, I'm just going to go back to the nail, the mix that we had this past weekend because it's a perfect example. So we did three this weekend with Christian Donaldson. He did a shadow of intent, crypto, the old crypto and then beyond creation. And so for people who aren't familiar with them beyond creation sounds like Prague death metal with fretless bass and OPEC kind of chord changes. Shadow of intent is like the heaviest modern death core you can imagine. Super modern and with orchestra and just heav as fuck. And then crypto is like classic death metal, classic technical death metal about as classic as it can get. The recording is from 1994. So three completely different styles of music, same mixer, a lot of the same techniques.

(01:33:43):

But what was really, really great about it was that each one of the sessions had its own identity, even if a lot of the same techniques are used. One of the things that I really got from it was that they don't sound like each other. They each had something unique to them. Now part of that does have to do I think, and maybe you'll agree with me in the arrangement and the songwriting and the recording process because those three bands, I mean it's not just that they're mixed differently and everything else about them is completely different. So I think when you're mixing something in order to bring out something unique about it, I mean it helps if there's something unique already there from the beginning. Right?

Speaker 3 (01:34:32):

Yes.

Speaker 2 (01:34:33):

You're nodding so you agree. Okay, cool.

Speaker 3 (01:34:35):

Yes, to be honest, sometimes it's very, also it's difficult to explain the band. Why can be a bigger,

Speaker 2 (01:34:44):

Do you mean bigger in bigger sounding or bigger in

Speaker 3 (01:34:48):

The band? I dunno the sounding, yes at the end it all comes from the simple, the songs. I think if the song is absolutely great and even if I'm the really shitty mixing engineer, I can't fuck up so much. You know what I mean? But if the song is nothing special in it, so it's very difficult to catch something in that song, to put it in really absolutely top level. I think for me it's even impossible. But if the song, the arrangement, the whole structure, how the song was composed, how they played, you don't need to be a magician.

Speaker 2 (01:35:38):

Well the greatness is already there. You're just bringing it out. It's interesting. I was thinking about this last night. I got a review, I try not to read reviews but sometimes I do because I'm stupid. But I was reading reviews of the podcast and most of them are great. Five stars for the most part, thanks everybody. But there was one who gave it three stars and he said that it's only good when the guests are interesting. So Al's a shitty host because it's only good when the guests are interesting and I'm thinking, well, okay, what you might not realize is I'm not a magician if my guests aren't interesting, there's only so much I can do about it in the conversation there's some people who might not be very good at speaking because they don't speak all the time. And my job is to help them get comfortable and to get things out of them that nobody else has before and to get them talking about something that they talk about every day of their lives, just not in this format.

(01:36:45):

So I've been able to make a lot of people who are not normally speakers talk about something that is really interesting. However, not everybody, no matter what you say to them, I can't make them interesting if they're a boring person, if they have nothing to say, it doesn't matter if they have an interesting job or if they're a good mixer or anything like that. If they themselves are a boring person, there is nothing I can do to make them interesting. I can't control what comes out of their mouth. So I feel like it's a similar sort of thing is the mixing analogy that if you don't have the right source tracks the right song with the right arrangement. It doesn't matter what you do with the mix, you're not making it a great song. It's going to be a good sounding mediocre song. Always. Always.

(01:37:38):

And with the podcast analogy too, it's always nice if my guests have a setup like mine, but that's not always possible. Sometimes I talk to people who all they have is an iPhone and no headphones or whatever and it's not going to sound as good as when everybody has a podcasting studio and it's perfect. But some of the best conversations I've had have been the episodes I've done where I'm in a hotel room in the middle of nowhere, no sound treatment and all I have my laptop microphone sounds like shit and my guest is on an iPhone. Sounds like shit. But we have an amazing conversation and nobody cares because the conversation's great. It's a similar thing to what you're saying in that what really, really matters I think is the content, right or the quality of the music, the quality of the conversation. That's at the end of the day, that's what actually matters the most. No amount of recording quality, mixing quality is going to take something mediocre and make it great or something shitty and make it great.

Speaker 3 (01:38:41):

Yeah, I remember, I will give you one explanation, this kind of situation. We had few recording, mixing courses, production and we invite a very really cool guy and a very great musician, famous guy to our course to show our students how different is between the sound from the great guitarist on what's important in the hand or the sound. I would say they ask them, you know what, please tell us what kind of string you using, what kind of guitar? And he said, stop. Why you ask me for this kind of things. It's not really important because he said before the show he's taking, he's got the guitar in hands and try to warm up in the front of people and he's playing few reefs and he's playing his own reefs and people just watching listening. But he tried to play like Panera or so ranch star, a CDC reef. People start crying like go crazy. And he ask them, so you think is sound important or the reef, the music is important more the people get more involved in the music when they have feelings to that reef, to that music,

(01:40:17):

The sound, it's really sound is not that important with really talented guys, really great reef because you could have really great preempts, really great mics and if you have root source, really not interesting will be nothing. And you are complete, right? Even if you spend, I don't know, make people comfortable if they don't play interesting, if they don't have something interesting to say in Polish, it's very, how to say, common sentence. If something looks like shit, if you have like shit, sorry for language, no matter how you paint it or you will change the size, it's still shit.

Speaker 2 (01:41:07):

Yes. How do you say that in Polish? Is it like a phrase? It's

Speaker 3 (01:41:11):

Phrase Yes.

Speaker 2 (01:41:12):

What is it? I want to hear it.

Speaker 3 (01:41:13):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (01:41:16):

I could never say that.

Speaker 3 (01:41:18):

I think it's very true sentence. It's like so in English will be like exactly from the she you cannot capture the great art.

Speaker 2 (01:41:30):

We say you can't polish a turd. That's the way we say

Speaker 3 (01:41:32):

It. Yeah, something like this. Yes.

Speaker 2 (01:41:34):

Yeah,

Speaker 3 (01:41:35):

I tell that to be honest a lot for the bands because for me it's art. It's always about the art. I always say that making music, it's not like building houses. Of course you can put that bricks like that and the house you will build it and will probably use useful for another 100 years. And with the music it's not like that. You can take three riff. Yes. Even right now there is a intelligence yes on the computers programs that you can programming and you have the ready riffs. Yes, but I know if you can really hear my song still my body is almost shaking because of the chords. All that stuff was going on. In that case, I really don't care how it sounds because my whole body, my mind just has unbelievable pleasure from listening to music or disgusting is the same thing. You can make disgust something really be angry or something. So it's really, really interesting. But yes, emotional, yes, good to catch the band, to record with that kind of bands with emotional feelings, what they thinking, what I want to, I wish to all sound engineers to record even once in their whole life with that kind of band.

Speaker 2 (01:43:12):

What's interesting too though is it's such a complicated profession to explain because it's so technical recording and mixing, there's so much technical stuff, scientific stuff, technology that you're using, whether you're using old school technology or new both, there's a lot of technology involved. You have to learn how to use it, it breaks, there's computers, there's all this technical stuff that you have to know how to do it or you're not going to be able to record well. But then you need to be able to put that aside and remember that you're creating art and capture the art and not let any of that technical shit get in the way of the art. And that's actually very difficult. I think that that's the biggest challenge because while I do think that it is very difficult to learn the technical side of recording, of course it's difficult, it's super difficult and it takes many, many, many years. I think that the true greatness happens when you have taken that knowledge and that skill and turned it into something that just facilitates the art. It's really hard I think, to get it to the point where you don't have to think about the technical so much, you just do the technical in the service of the emotion and the essence of the art. I think that's the ideal, right?

Speaker 3 (01:44:45):

Yes. You yeah, you describe it in very nice words. Yes, actually, yeah. But you are exactly really great person because he's really big art to talk with us with guys, Polish guys who not speaking native English,

Speaker 2 (01:45:05):

You speak really well actually.

Speaker 3 (01:45:07):

You're doing so well and we really comfortable with our conversation is very intuitive, really deep in the music. So this is your art, man. Thank you very much. It is really pleasure to talk with you really

Speaker 2 (01:45:24):

Well. Likewise. I appreciate you guys coming on. Sometimes when I approach certain people, they don't want to come on because they're afraid of their English not being good enough. And I always tell them to, please don't worry about that. That's not a problem. First of all, your guys' English is perfectly fine, but I know that a lot of my European guests or Asian guests have been, a lot of 'em have been nervous to do this. But thing is my parents aren't American. Most of my extended family is not American and I didn't learn English first. So my whole life I've spent going between languages and having to understand family members who didn't speak English as well as me. So it's not hard for me. And plus at the end of the day we're talking about something that we all have spent our lives doing. So even if there's a language difference, like recording is recording, music is music, I think there's a reason for why people say music is the universal language.

Speaker 4 (01:46:33):

Exactly,

Speaker 2 (01:46:34):

Yeah. I think that the emotion that somebody feels from music is much more powerful than language. That's why you can have a band write a song in one language, go to another country where nobody even understands a word of the lyrics and still feel the exact same thing that the people in the home country for the band feel. I think about, for instance, di Borg gear put out some songs in Norwegian. I remember on the Death Cult Armageddon album, and I don't speak a goddamn word of Norwegian. Those are my favorite songs and I have no fucking clue what he's saying. It doesn't matter. The feeling is there. I mean I know there's bigger examples like Ramstein having DU has get huge in the US and nobody knew what that meant, but it sounded cool and it felt cool. So I think it's a similar thing.

Speaker 3 (01:47:29):

Yes, absolutely. That's why I really love the music. Sometimes when we record the band from, I dunno, Brazil, German, France, Poland, if there is something between if something happened like magic on the session, oh is this music? It really doesn't matter if my English or his English is good one or I dunno, Russian one. Yes. Because sometimes we record from the Russia or the Russian language. Yes. It really doesn't matter. Yes, it's the last thing.

Speaker 2 (01:48:02):

Great riff is a great riff.

Speaker 3 (01:48:04):

Yes.

Speaker 2 (01:48:04):

So when you record non Polish bands, what language do you guys speak

Speaker 3 (01:48:09):

English? Try to English? Yes. Except the Russian.

Speaker 2 (01:48:12):

So you speak Russian?

Speaker 3 (01:48:13):

Yes, yes, yes.

Speaker 2 (01:48:15):

Okay. I never used to think about this, but I remember once on tour with dark funeral in 2007 we stopped in Phoenix, Arizona and behemoth were playing down the street and I guess we had toured with them before and they're friends with dark funerals. So actually the behemoth guys came to the show and on the bus. So it was my band, dark Funeral from Sweden, behemoth from Poland. And I noticed they were talking to each other in English and then I realized, oh yeah, Swedish and Polish's two completely different things. Absolute different. Of course they're speaking to each other in English. Why is this even a surprise? This is the most obvious thing. It makes perfect sense. So do you guys speak a lot of English with your clients?

Speaker 3 (01:49:10):

Except the last year?

Speaker 2 (01:49:12):

Well yeah. Okay. Yeah. For people listening in the future, it's April, 2021. So the last year was COVID?

Speaker 3 (01:49:19):

Yes. But mostly 90% of the session we speak English because 90% of our customers are outside of the Poland.

Speaker 2 (01:49:27):

Alright, so that brings up two final things I want to talk about. You said 90% of your customers are outside of Poland and we have a lot of listeners who they're not in Nashville and Los Angeles or Gothenburg, a lot of them live in the middle of nowhere. And I know that you're not in the middle of nowhere. They live in places that are not meccas for music or whatever. There's not a ton of stuff around them and they don't want to move though. So they have to get to the kind of situation that you guys are in, right? Where 90% of your work is coming in from someplace else. How do you think you get to that kind of point starting from a place in the world that's not like Los Angeles or Nashville or London or Gothenburg?

Speaker 3 (01:50:20):

I think, no, again, it's was small steps. If you say that we are in the middle of nowhere, I think we are in the middle of nowhere.

Speaker 2 (01:50:29):

Do you consider in the middle of nowhere?

Speaker 3 (01:50:31):

Yes. I think it's bok. It's very hard to explain. 10 years ago or 12 years ago, the plant even wasn't in European Union. So if somebody email to us, I remember the band from Netherlands, they send email and they ask us, do you have restaurants in your city? Or the next question, do you think we can buy the vegetarian food in Euro city?

Speaker 2 (01:51:04):

Do you have electricity

Speaker 3 (01:51:06):

Like this? Yes, exactly. They afraid,

Speaker 2 (01:51:09):

Have you guys heard of this crazy thing we have called cars?

Speaker 3 (01:51:14):

Yeah, I saw on the internet, man, believe me or no, it was like that because we are very close to the Russian border and the whole Poland I think was for the western countries was like, I don't know, it's end of civilization. It's something between the Russia and nowhere. It's like forest. We are living in the place where it's a big forest. Everything is like winter is a really wind winter. It's like

Speaker 2 (01:51:52):

So it is the middle of nowhere.

Speaker 3 (01:51:53):

Yes, yes, yes. And actually right now of course you have planes, all that stuff is making easier. But it wasn't like 12 years ago or 20 years or 20 years ago. Oh man, I don't want to even mention still if I remember the guys in Brazil from Brazil came to here over here and they go to a local store so nobody say in English. So they simply want to buy a chicken. So the best way they laugh in front, that's why he buy the chicken. Yes. And they put the finger on the meat and they said it was funny. But also there was a guys from Siberia, they came from Russia to us. They say they travel, they was took two days, take the train and half day on the airplane. So three days to catch the studio in one way. But sometimes the second way, we have bands, sometimes we discussed and we work with the bands and then even want to go take the taxi, go to us. It's everything in the brain and the people of the brain, if the people trust us and they think it's worth it, go there to learn something, to make some kind of big part of music together and things happen. It's like no borders, it's no walls to brick and make it be here, work together. But everything is a brain.

Speaker 2 (01:53:37):

So what do you think the small steps are in a situation like yours? Is it like you start with what you can start with the bands that you can work with, the artists you can work with and make sure that they have the best experience possible and that you do the best possible work with them. And then hopefully they say nice things to their friends.

Speaker 3 (01:54:02):

I think there is no other way. Maybe other guys had a really luck, I dunno, one single shot, first band, beautiful song and

Speaker 2 (01:54:12):

That's very rare.

Speaker 3 (01:54:14):

Yes. But I think could be situations like that but for us was and still is very hard job that I really love it but it's hard job. It's like make the same on each session with every musician. I think that's the clue. But the small musician must be feel very like a big one and the big one also supposed to be something special and the focus, I mean really focus on our job, on our productive way on that album. And for me, I know it's nothing special but it's only small steps. You do something nice for that band. The world is really small. A lot of people know each other. Yes, they meet on the gigs on the touring. Yes. So you say, oh I did recording with those guys. Session was really shitty one, I don't like it. So do you think they will go, no,

Speaker 2 (01:55:15):

Of course not.

Speaker 3 (01:55:16):

I think it works like that. I think these kind of small steps over 20 years ago, I remember when Vtech mentioned we start the business together and there was band and they have big expectation they want to sounds like a New Testament album for example. And we have pair of microphone and a very small mixing analog desk and no zero knowledge. And we say, you know what? Let's try do something and push. And we realize after the session when they record guitars, how they felt and make the best way and they went home and we sit together in the evening, we'll listen to music and we'll listen the reference track of the T and our job and said, you know what, this is no way, this will not sound like testament at the end. And you know what? Let's not sleep at night, not sleep at don't talk even with the band, the best hour, learn a lot how to do it. Make better to be a band. Really maybe not happy but satisfied with playing those really hard work behind the curtain. Something in the back. So we did to record a lot of bands to spend together with this kind of problems we have, we build up experience, I mean knowledge with experience. So this is really, really important. So this is small steps you think this is not give up, you know what I mean? So it's like we not give up from the beginning even we knew we are not going the right direction, we not give up.

Speaker 2 (01:57:13):

I think that people at the beginning who are working with those difficult clients that have unrealistic expectations, three days to sound like Slipknot or something, instead of getting mad, I know that a lot of people will get frustrated or mad instead of getting mad and frustrated, look at it as an opportunity to learn how to solve problems. An opportunity to try to get better. Maybe it's not going to sound like a Slipknot album in three days, but that doesn't matter. You can still do your best to try and try and get it as close as possible to what it should be and to overcome those issues. And I've always said I think a great producer, a great mixer is a great problem solver and you want to do that problem solving early and with small bands so that when you do finally get the chance to work with a behemoth or something, you know how to solve the problems.

Speaker 3 (01:58:14):

Yes, exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:58:14):

As they come up and things go smoothly.

Speaker 3 (01:58:17):

Yes. But I think it's also, it's very important to be honest with the band, Hey man, I can't make silly lip note for sure. But I think we can make some kind of different direction which will be, I don't know, very good for your music, for your stuff and saying them at the beginning.

Speaker 2 (01:58:37):

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 3 (01:58:38):

Even I had, I don't know, half year ago the phone from a guy. Can you make, I want to record the drums for you from our songs. Okay, so can you make alter bridge drums? Alter bridge drums, yes. But I need to tell you I have only two hours in the studio.

Speaker 2 (01:58:56):

Good luck.

Speaker 3 (01:58:57):

Oh man I can do that. Why we need more time and even then it won't be Altered bridge because you are not alter bridge drummer but for sure not the same quality but we can do something very nice at that time. No, sorry, I don't want to try to tell band that. Okay, we'll do it. Yes. I think the honest stuff and make something for them. I think too much people looking for something copy from others bands instead of looking of course it's good to refresh, I don't know, during the recording you create some guitar tone, it's good to refresh your ears because I dunno if you change 20 sounds, different sounds during half hour you might be confused. So I usually I might be confused. So usually I, I dunno, I can play for two minutes different recordings just to refresh my ears and then I come back to mine and I know what's going on. So be honest and try to suggest something for them.

Speaker 2 (02:00:09):

Absolutely. You should definitely be upfront I think in set expectations. But when you're still going to be in, even if they say I want slip none in three days you say look I can't give you slip, not in three days you're not slip not, but I can do something. We can still do something awesome that would be great for you. And they say okay, you're still going to have the problem of a band that wants to sound amazing in three days. And so you're still going to have to solve those problems. But I definitely think that it's important to set expectations upfront. That's just a good skill to have in life. I think it just makes for good relationships.

Speaker 3 (02:00:45):

Yes. Also it's like if someone like to have a same sound, like for example Sleep Knot, I say you know what, even sleep knot don't have the same sound to each album. So if they want to catch the same sound from guitars or the drums or mixing from the different album is new, we not able, we can go with similar with levels with the punch on that mix but we cannot make a copy. It's not possible. It is like no sense it's not art. I mean even I don't want to make a copy why

Speaker 2 (02:01:27):

You're right though that it's not even possible. Whenever bands say we're going to make an album that's like our first one, it still never sounds like their first one because it's a moment in time you can't recreate it.

Speaker 3 (02:01:40):

It's really interesting because especially in the beginning everybody said use this mic for a guitar because it's like basic or standard mark for the guitar for example some dynamic mic. So Tex said, you know what we not using this mic. Why? Because this is a kind of standard all studio using not, we're not using this mic because all of the music. So let's find a great sound from the different mic from different side and this will give you unique sound. That's why we put on a not standard mic on the drums, not standard mics, on the guitars and to have something unique. You know what I mean? That's the way

Speaker 4 (02:02:27):

Absolutely.

Speaker 3 (02:02:28):

It's even in the past when the era of the digital stuff just became, I remember when we to make the first samples we prepare right now it's very hard to imagine. So we prepare the single samples for the floppy disc for the AKA sampler

(02:02:49):

And we just like load like, I dunno, 25 minutes at the beginning of the session. And even we didn't power off for the whole session because you power off so you need again to load from the 20 disks. Yes. And I think that's why of the reason we bought the D drum and make that our sound to the D ddr because over here nobody used the ddr. And right now we built few years ago the nice sounding recording room because I'm really tired of that only sampling stuff and if I have opportunity to record something live, I really prefer to do that. I know that in almost every recording people put the samples. Yes of course. But it's good to even to record even if I need to use the samples, I prefer to create something unique for that band and use it for them only for them and give something special, not like load. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (02:04:00):

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 3 (02:04:01):

So that's why when we built our FT drums replacement and sampler, we're choosing many mics to capture the sampling of the sound of the drums. For example, our instrument has three selective mics at once. We call many mics, which is three of them like a standard and a not typical and very interesting I would say like this. So the guy who want to use our software, they were able to choose different mics from the beginning but really interesting. Of course we know exactly how the snare drum sounds brilliant. I mean sounds really punchy in this particular way with SM 57, but please try with different one. So see how so focus, how's dynamic, how the became really different instrument. So that's why our new product, which we ek mentioned we just finished the first product first. Yes. In the two because we spent for time. Yeah, a lot of time. But it's almost done. I mean I think in the,

Speaker 2 (02:05:19):

When's it coming out,

Speaker 3 (02:05:20):

The demo is like free demo will be we put for our people free demo.

Speaker 2 (02:05:25):

Okay.

Speaker 3 (02:05:26):

I think during three, four weeks will be available.

Speaker 2 (02:05:30):

I wanted to talk about the Kemper profiles too. You guys are working on some of those as well? Correct? Tell me about that.

Speaker 3 (02:05:38):

I think right now there is some kind of new generation of guitar players. It's my only, I don't know if you agree with me, that even didn't touch the tube in the whole life. And I realize that if I invite them to the studio and I put on the tube amp here please. And I'm sure that is good tone, they can't play it, they don't have the right tone from the hand. And I realize that sometimes it's very difficult then to play them in the studio. So I realize that if I make some kind of profiles, put some kind of, I dunno, compressor, whatever, to make them similar, how they used to play the whole day life, it's easier to play them.

Speaker 2 (02:06:31):

Absolutely.

Speaker 3 (02:06:32):

And I realized if I still, I will argue only on that two amp that I can't play very good. They can't use to it during two hours. It's take a time. If you're not play on the tube amp, I think it's take a time to use on it.

Speaker 2 (02:06:52):

Absolutely.

Speaker 3 (02:06:53):

So because I realized the people send us the trucks for a mixing and we have the direct signal and I put one second, third amp and man, it doesn't sound, I mean somehow and then when I use the camper stuff and even on the second track I use with the blend with the real amp or add something, blend the signals. So it works.

Speaker 2 (02:07:23):

I think that that's a very good point that we do have a generation of guitar players who just learn differently. They grew up with a different technology and what you play through affects how you play. And I think that that's just adapting to the time period that we live in. I think that's very clever. And I agree with you. The way that digital amps respond and Amp Sims respond is completely different than the way that tube amps respond. And if you've never played through a tube amp, then you're not going to just figure it out. People who played tube amps get good at playing them through turning them up and playing them on stage and practicing with them loud and learning how to control the noise and the way that it moves the air in the room and not going to learn that in two hours sitting in the studio, hearing things coming through studio monitors or headphones.

Speaker 3 (02:08:17):

Yes, I even realized that they're confused and not feel comfortable. And then it's very difficult to make the smooth, nice sessions because I think at the end they must feel comfortable. I mean really otherwise I think there is no sense to continue the session. So if they don't have the right monitor system, they don't feel the right in the room. So I think they can't play the right one of our main roles, even when we make our courses, it's always you record, you mix how you hear it. If you hear it nice, you will do it your job better. If now it's matter of luck. I think it's right decision. And also because it's very interesting as making this camper profiles because ek, when he's doing profiles, how is he taking the sound is really interesting because for example, he's putting like a reef and build up the sound from the amps, multiple amps, not one, no through sometimes three or four.

(02:09:32):

And he's matching the sound with the reef and also he's putting a lot of microphones in, blend a lot, blend a lot. It's like painting the picture. He's capture 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 800th profiles. And the next day he's listening, he's choosing half of them, he's going off and half of them going to next steps. And then after plane and different reefs and from this 15 riffs he's thinking off like 20. And from the best profiles he's putting into the music into the drums and he's listening has the sound and the music, not alone like a guitar. And then he's from this th profiles, he's talking like 20. And then he's invite the friends from different guitars and let him to play how the sound, different guitar, different riffs with live musician and then he's got 12.

Speaker 2 (02:10:45):

Makes sense.

Speaker 3 (02:10:45):

And I think checking on different guitars with different guitar players, I mean that's the clue. I'm lucky because I have a lot of sources, clean guitars from different guys, I mean with different guitars because I think still a lot of people forget about how important is the source, the player, the guitar is, oh

Speaker 2 (02:11:06):

It's huge.

Speaker 3 (02:11:07):

I mean for me it's a crucial one. I mean you can miss that stuff. So that's why I really try to compare on different guitar players and I have selection. Few of them if sounds pretty cool on those guys, I'm sure that will work.

Speaker 2 (02:11:26):

Yeah, makes sense. I definitely think that that is the way to approach getting profiles that definitely work for a lot of people because one thing I've noticed is when making profiles, generally if you're recording an album with an amp and you profile it because you want to keep the tone and you try using that with somebody else, it usually doesn't work. It was for that one guitar player with that one guitar that one moment. So in order to make a profile that really works for a bunch of people, you do have to kind of test it and tweak it with a bunch of people. And ek, I want to thank you guys for coming on. It's been a pleasure talking to you.

Speaker 3 (02:12:14):

Thank you very much. Thank you. Oh pleasure Was Aman? Yes. Thank you for invitation for conversation.

Speaker 2 (02:12:21):

My pleasure. Thank

Speaker 3 (02:12:22):

You very much.

Speaker 2 (02:12:23):

Alright then another URM podcast episode in the bag. Please remember to share our episodes with your friends as well as post them to your Facebook and Instagram or any social media you use. Please tag me at al Levi URM audio at URM Academy and of course tag our guest as well. I mean they really do appreciate it. In addition, do you have any questions for me about anything? Email them to [email protected]. That's EYAL at M dot aca, DEMY. And use the subject line answer me Eyal. Alright then. Till next time, happy

Speaker 1 (02:13:03):

Mixing. You've been listening to the Unstoppable Recording Machine podcast. To ask us questions, make suggestions and interact, visit URM Academy and press the podcast link today.