JOOST VAN DEN BROEK: Recording real orchestras, blending orchestras with heavy guitars, and long-term production strategy

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast. And now your host, Eyal Levi. Welcome to the URM Podcast. Thank you so much for being here. It's crazy to think that we're now on our fifth year, but it's true, and it's only because of you, the listeners. And if you'd like to see us stick around for another five years, there are a few simple things that you can do that would really, really help us out, and I would be endlessly appreciative. Number one, share our episodes with your friends. If you get something out of these episodes, I'm sure they will too. So please share us with your friends. Number two, post our episodes on your Facebook and Instagram and tag me and our guests too. My Instagram is at al Levy urm audio. And let me just let you know that we love seeing ourselves tagged in these posts.

(00:00:55):

Who knows, we might even respond. And number three, leave us reviews and five stars please anywhere you can. We especially love iTunes reviews. Once again, I want to thank you all for the years and years of loyalty. I just want you to know that we will never, ever charge you for this podcast, and I will always work as hard as possible to improve the episodes in every single way possible. All I ask in return is a share post and a tag. Now let's get on with it. Hello everybody. Welcome to the URM Podcast. My guest today is Yost Vander Brook, who is a Netherlands based producer, mix engineer, composer, and arranger, headquartered out of sand lane recording facilities. He's a keyboard and piano player known for his co-writing and arranging abilities throughout the genre of symphonic metal, and has worked with some of the heavy hitters such as Epica, power Wolf Ion, and many, many more. Brook, welcome to the URM Podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:01:59):

Thank you very much. Pleasure to be here.

Speaker 1 (00:02:02):

Thanks for being here.

Speaker 2 (00:02:03):

You're welcome.

Speaker 1 (00:02:04):

So just out of curiosity, how busy have you been in the past year? That's something that I'm asking everybody.

Speaker 2 (00:02:11):

Well, I must say that I can't complain. I'm very happy with all the projects and productions that I've been doing, and I must say I've been super busy. So yeah, very happy about that. I had to reschedule some minor things, maybe make up some solutions, especially with recordings, some bigger groups like choir and string ensembles like that. I did some recordings, remote recordings actually, so with a video connection to other studios. But except for that, there wasn't one day that I really had to cancel or that I sat down and didn't know what to do. So very happy about that.

Speaker 1 (00:02:53):

How did you go about remote recording? I know a lot of people do remote mixing or they do remote pre-production where they send stuff back and forth and I mean, I guess some people even do stuff live, but that seems to me like that's entering a more difficult territory when you have to coordinate something like a choir.

Speaker 2 (00:03:19):

Yeah, so what we actually did, the complete focals of the upcoming epica album are remotely recorded, and what we actually did was the singer went into a studio near Stuttgart where she lives. There was an engineer there, which was doing actually kind of the technical thing, keeping an eye on the levels and actually following my kind of commands so to say. So he was pressing play, rewinding, redoing the take. I had an audio connection through audio movers. I dunno if you, yeah, we use audio

Speaker 1 (00:04:04):

Movers,

Speaker 2 (00:04:05):

Which actually sounds pretty good for this one. It's also pretty low latency needs a little bit of setup. And then we have three different cameras connected on Zoom, so the three different accounts. So I could see the singer could see the engineer, and they could see me. So there were like three screens. I send them the sessions, I could see the sessions on my share screen so to say, and I could hear what was going on. I could talk back so I could give instructions, I could see what playlist there were everything actually, and it was a bit of getting used to it, but in the end we did a great session and it lasts for two to three weeks. It's not so much fun. It's not so personal, of course, having the vocalist around and really creating this fight together and what I think is very important with at least vocal recordings. But yeah, it went well. The quality was good. You

Speaker 1 (00:05:12):

Make the best of the situation.

Speaker 2 (00:05:13):

We made the best out of the situation and I must say the result was good. And after the day, the engineer of the studio sent over the sessions to me. I made a lot of notes while recording. I did the comping in the evening and the next day we continued with either death song, things that I thought could still be better or we moved on with another part and it took a bit more time, but it worked out and I'm happy that we could do it like this.

Speaker 1 (00:05:46):

Well, we started doing nail the mix remotely

Speaker 2 (00:05:48):

During

Speaker 1 (00:05:49):

The pandemic because obviously we couldn't travel every single month. And I was a little concerned that my interaction with the mixer would be compromised because that's kind of one of the most important parts since the people that we have on aren't instructors, they're mixers and producers who don't really talk about what they're doing. So me being able to communicate with them is crucial, and I was worried that that would be compromised, but actually it hasn't been compromised at all.

Speaker 2 (00:06:22):

Okay, cool.

Speaker 1 (00:06:23):

There was a little bit of a learning curve. Of course,

Speaker 2 (00:06:26):

Definitely. Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 1 (00:06:28):

It's the same thing is making the best of the situation and actually I found that there's some advantages to it. The big one for me, I don't know. I'm curious to know if you found any advantages in remote working? For me, the biggest one was that normally when I do nail the mix, I'm talking to the back of somebody's head.

Speaker 2 (00:06:49):

I see. Because

Speaker 1 (00:06:50):

I am sitting at the back of the room. So they're looking forward at a camera and then responding to me behind them, which I guess is what people do in the studio, but they're not normally having conversations like that with their clients.

Speaker 2 (00:07:05):

No.

Speaker 1 (00:07:06):

So that's always been a little strange and now I talk to them face to face, which I see makes it easier. Is there anything that you found easier about remote working?

Speaker 2 (00:07:17):

Well, not like that to be honest, because when giving instructions to vocalists while he or she's performing is quite an intense thing to do. It's not just listening to what they're singing, it's also seeing their body language. It's really between the lines that you feel things are going well or you know what they need in kind of a motivation or maybe some comments or stuff like that. So I felt a little bit away from that, so I felt a bit more distant. Of course, you grow into it, but then again, I didn't really find that an advantage. Of course, what of course for the vocalist was a very nice thing that she could actually come into the studio, sing for two, three hours and go home again, especially in this pandemic with the family also being home, maybe even children being home, you are a bit more flexible.

(00:08:19):

And the good thing is that in the studio normally you say, okay, you sing for maybe five to six hours a day with some breaks. Then this person goes to a hotel or stays over. That's of course not very time efficient because you only spend like five or six days recording and the rest of the day you're like waiting or resting, which for some people is nice to get out. But when you do that for two weeks, you spend a lot of time away from everything and just have been recording five to six hours max. What I found out with remote recordings that everyone could be a bit more flexible. So we could say, okay, we did two, three hours, this is maybe enough for today. You go home, you take some rests. We continue the next day. We were a bit more flexible like that, giving the vocalist a bit more rest and maybe record more on times that he or she was feeling well to record. And that kind of flexibility is a bit harder when you're here in the studio. Of course, when it's not going well, you can stop and continue the next day, but it feels a bit like things are going wrong. And when you're actually remotely recording, you can kind of be a bit more flexible in time and the circumstances are a bit more easy to adapt, so to say.

Speaker 1 (00:09:45):

I would wager to say that that means that you can probably get better performances.

Speaker 2 (00:09:51):

Yes.

Speaker 1 (00:09:52):

Maybe because capturing them when they're at their best as opposed to tired.

Speaker 2 (00:09:57):

Yeah, that's what you try. The downside is that I feel I can get a little bit less grip on the situation.

(00:10:07):

So what I did feel that we did more takes than we would normally do because I could point out a bit less specific things in each take that I would normally be able to do. So that took a bit more time and effort, so to say we did some more takes and that's also not super efficient actually. So there are two things to the whole thing, and it would really not have my preferences if it's not needed. But then again, it works and if you get your mind to it and we had this experience, now it's definitely a possibility.

Speaker 1 (00:10:45):

So when the pandemic's over, are you going to go back to exclusively doing things in person or add this to the repertoire if needed?

Speaker 2 (00:10:55):

Yeah, you can definitely add it to the repertoire. I mean, there are some bands that it's also very kind of time and costs efficient thing to do remote recordings. So when I'm working with a band that is pretty far away from Holland, well to maybe book a flight and a hotel and expensive studio time, I could be involved in the recordings in a remote way, still adding my vision to things and trying to coach the recordings instead of them coming over here for me, definitely a possibility. I wouldn't want to do it full time, but definitely it would be one of the options.

Speaker 1 (00:11:41):

I think that there's no replacement for being in person. At the same time, we do need to make the best of whatever situation we're handed.

Speaker 2 (00:11:51):

Definitely.

Speaker 1 (00:11:52):

And not just that there's some situations that wouldn't even be possible in non pandemic times because of things like cost.

Speaker 2 (00:12:01):

Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 1 (00:12:02):

And convenience. For instance, I know that there's some bands, I don't know if you've encountered this, but there's some bands who do have a budget. They've been at it for so long and they tour so much that the idea of leaving again, leaving their families again for weeks and weeks, they're just not okay. So they might pick a producer who might not be their top choice. In a perfect world, the dude lives close to them.

Speaker 2 (00:12:33):

Yeah, you're right about that

Speaker 1 (00:12:35):

Dude or lady. And then they'll just get it mixed by somebody else, but they'll make that decision based on convenience. And that's not just local bands, that's big bands too. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:12:45):

You're right.

Speaker 1 (00:12:46):

So I feel like the remote recording could have its advantages in facilitating things that wouldn't have happened otherwise.

Speaker 2 (00:12:54):

Yeah, definitely. And I do feel that when you would know that upfront, and that's probably what also made it a bit more difficult now that we had to do it like this, it was not prepared to do it like this. So when you would know it upfront, okay, this is the plan of the whole production, and we would do this particular part with remote recording, you can actually work towards that moment in demoing pre-production preparations, getting all the lyrics checked on time, having some harmonies done, all these kinds of things that are a bit more easy to do when you're really one-on-one together. So I do feel that especially with the right preparation and pre-production, the remote recording could go even much better than the experience that I had so far.

Speaker 1 (00:13:49):

So do you consider yourself more of a composer or a producer?

Speaker 2 (00:13:53):

It's a bit of both. The producer kind of role, so to say for me is indeed a big part of composing and arranging. I think that's a very important part of the music and all the productions that I do have. Quite a big part of that is arrangement, orchestration, getting everything written out and layered, so to say. I mainly do symphonic metal, so there's a big part to it that really needs a lot of layering, preparation, the whole orchestration thing, so to say. So for me, it's definitely a mix of both. So when I'm actually working with a band as a producer with most of them, I'm also involved with the songwriting. The orchestrations are mostly done by myself or a big part of them. I'm a keyboard player myself, so I also do a lot of that. So yeah, for me it's definitely a combination I wouldn't want to choose. Do you know who Mick Gordon is? Yeah, I know the name. Yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:15:00):

The Doom Composer.

Speaker 2 (00:15:02):

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:15:02):

I was talking to him the other day about this blending electronics with metal. His philosophy just reminds me of what you just said. He was saying that where a lot of people go wrong, in his opinion, his perspective is that they'll write the medal, the band will write the medal, then try to hire him to just add stuff on it, but he prefers, he thinks you have to go

Speaker 2 (00:15:29):

From

Speaker 1 (00:15:29):

The beginning organically and the electronics have to be a part of it, just like anything else. You don't just throw it on sugar in a coffee or something, or sprinkles on a cake.

Speaker 2 (00:15:42):

Exactly.

Speaker 1 (00:15:42):

So it sounds to me like in order to do what you do properly, you have to get into the music itself, and that's why you have to be involved in the songwriting and the arrangement. You can't just throw orchestration on top of stuff.

Speaker 2 (00:15:57):

No, you can sometimes, but actually with most of the bigger productions that I'm doing, I'm involved in a very early stage, and it's exactly the reason that you mentioned because the layers of the music, which are quite intensive with the symphonic metal and the progressive metal that I'm doing should be there from a very early stage as well. So it's not just drum's, guitar, bass, it's much more to that and how the earlier you can actually get it into the composition the better the song will evolve towards the actual production. And it's way too complex mostly to really work from a kind of solid metal basis and add things on top. There is hardly any room. So with everyone, the guitar player, the singer and the drummer starts filling in their parts completely. There is no room left for orchestration or choirs or whatever. And of course, what's making the style. So the earlier that I'm involved, the earlier that also the guitar player and drummer can adapt to accents, to melodies, to whatever's needed. And yeah, that's a big part of what I'm doing.

Speaker 1 (00:17:20):

So when a band comes to you and they want to make a symphonic metal record, where does it typically start? Is there a normal place that it starts or is it different with everybody?

Speaker 2 (00:17:33):

It's a bit different with everybody, but then again, what I see a lot is that bands actually come to me with a pretty basic demo. So let's say the first ideas that they have for a song, and funny enough, with some bands that doesn't really contain any vocal melody yet, there's something within symphonic metal, which I think is a bit strange, but not a lot of band members actually start writing vocals while working on ideals. While actually in this style, the vocals are very, very important. So most of the time I get this basic idea just containing a verse and a chorus or something like that. And from there I start working on the song as in orchestrations, I send that back, I maybe give some suggestions as for vocal melodies and then we go back and forth. This is also mostly an online process, and I really start adding quite a lot of layers already.

(00:18:42):

So it's not just a piano or just one string line. It's really like layering a lot of stuff already with samples to get the idea of what could be the song or the vibe of the song. With every band, I try to create a certain kind of color palette, so to say. So for example, I have a certain color palette in the orchestration and kind of the do's and don'ts in this style. With Power Wolf, I have a complete different kind of color palette of sounds that I'm be using or sounds that should be featured in every song. And also with newer bands, I always try to search for that kind of color palette, so to say. So kind of a thing that you say, okay, this is the range of sounds that we're trying to use, the kind of directions that we want to have on this album, and we try to, let's say, limit ourselves to these.

(00:19:44):

And with limit, I don't mean it's a small amount of sounds because it's mostly a lot of sounds, but there are always these do's and don'ts. So we like to have a lot of brass, we have a lot of choir. If we have a piano, it should be a processed piano. Do we use synths or electronics or not at all? Power wolf obviously has the church organ that is important. Aika uses a lot of the oriental ethnical kind of sounds. So with every band, I try to create that in a very early stage. So it really inspires the band members that most of them are not that far ahead with orchestration or not that into it, that I try to inspire them with giving input from my direction of orchestration of sound. So when they hear their idea back, they will feel like, oh yeah, this is what could be the direction. Maybe now I have an idea for the bridge, or maybe we should enhance this or we need another part. Or they say, maybe leave this out or add this. So we really try to build it up like that

Speaker 1 (00:20:53):

With the do's and the don'ts. Do you find that imposing limits enhances creativity because otherwise there's 8 million options and you can spend forever just exploring and going down rabbit holes as opposed to defining a direction and going in that direction?

Speaker 2 (00:21:14):

I would say it's more defining a direction than putting on limitations, because limitations nowadays are still an endless world of opportunities, but defining a direction is, for me, a very important thing with every production and especially the symphonic ones because there's so much stuff that you can add. It's really limitless. But still every band wants to have their own sound, their own unique selling points maybe, or things that they want to hold on to from the past and want to improve. Maybe. I like to experiment a lot, and I try to do that within every production, at least within the margin. Some bands are very open for experimenting with sounds or new things that they didn't use before. Other bands know really well, these are our limits and maybe we can go like 10% over it, but we always should feel this is what we are.

(00:22:19):

We don't want to scare off any fans. So that's actually a big part of the pre-production for me, kind of looking at this direction, defining the concept, so to say, and really try to get every one of the bands and everyone around involved in that same kind of vision. So you're kind of starting to talk the same language, so to say. And then you can actually make decisions pretty easy based on that concept, because everyone knows what you're talking about. This sometimes takes a while, but in the end it always works out even as far as mixing and mastering goes.

Speaker 1 (00:22:59):

One of my favorite symphonic metal albums is Death Cult Armageddon. It's great. And one of the things, I'm just thinking about everything that you're saying, one of the things that I like about it is that there isn't 8 million different kinds of orchestration. It's got its style,

Speaker 2 (00:23:19):

It's

Speaker 1 (00:23:20):

Got its orchestral style in it, and it sticks to it the whole way through. But that doesn't sound like just one idea though obviously,

Speaker 2 (00:23:29):

But

Speaker 1 (00:23:30):

It does have its direction, which I think is really crucial.

Speaker 2 (00:23:34):

It's a brilliant album actually. That is an album that really got me into, well, the combination of a real orchestra and a heavy metal band. That was a big inspiration for me. And actually also the reason why I went to Prague to record the Prague Philharmonic a few times already because I thought, okay, I really need this sound. And the cool thing is what you hear, and that's also what I'm trying to do in the orchestrations that I'm doing. I have a master degree in classical orchestration. So meaning that

Speaker 1 (00:24:10):

That helps.

Speaker 2 (00:24:11):

Yeah, I am trained in a pretty traditional way, so I have a lot of influences and whatever, but at some point after my conservatory study, I thought, okay, I really want to dive into this world even more because if you start understanding the way an orchestra or choir works, you can paint a lot of colors with different techniques, but you actually stick to some kind of an original sound because that is one of the things that lots of people nowadays make this mistake that, okay, we have samples and I can play high notes with a cello and low notes with a viola, and the flute can do anything you want

Speaker 1 (00:24:55):

Stuff that doesn't exist in the real world.

Speaker 2 (00:24:57):

Exactly. And they don't know what the original balance within an orchestra is so that you actually need 21st violin players and maybe two trumpet players. Of course, it's interesting to go away from that as well. But what you hear on that called Armageddon is that actually these arrangements, these orchestrations are done really well in a traditional way. So what you probably subscribe is also that you feel it's one sound and in the end an orchestra is one big instrument. And if you do understand what you can do with that, you can go many directions. But it does sound like a real orchestra. You can either do that live or with samples if you know what you're doing. But that for me is very important, knowing what kind of string voicings you can write to make it sound good and not just having one hand on your keyboard and play a close harmony chord. That's actually not what strings do normally. There's a big difference between those two approaches. And on that gold Armageddon, you definitely hear the traditional really well orchestrated approach. Yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:26:09):

It sounds like the real thing.

Speaker 2 (00:26:10):

Yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:26:11):

Because it is the real thing.

Speaker 2 (00:26:13):

And actually if you would go to that orchestra and you would not have your scores prepared and not really written out in the way they understand it, it will never sound like that. It will still sound small and not powerful, so to say. So you really have to know your thing.

Speaker 1 (00:26:33):

How did you find working with them? I have a little experience with that orchestra.

Speaker 2 (00:26:38):

Yeah, well, of course a very well, if you come out of a band kind of environment where everyone knows their music and having a good time playing it and are very enthusiastic about the material, when you go to an orchestra to record, they literally come in with their newspaper and their violin under their arm. They are there the latest possible. So if you start at nine, they will come in one minute before nine. They have no clue what they're going to play that day. Maybe the conductor knows and the engineer knows, but actually they just sit down, they see the sheep music for the first time and they just play and they play as much as you want, and they just continue playing. Well when you say you want to do it again, but they're not attached to the music at all. And that was for me, the biggest kind of thing that I experienced. Like, oh, it's really a very different kind of world. There's no preparation. There is no real connection to what they're playing when they're playing. They do their best and they're very trained, but when it stops, they already forgot what they played the second before, so to say.

Speaker 1 (00:28:03):

The preparation went in the years and years and years and years of learning how to play that type of music and

Speaker 2 (00:28:11):

The years that they have been playing together so they can really blend in together. And that's why it's even more important to have your scores really right. If there's a wrong note, they will play the wrong notes. They will not correct. They will just play it a hundred times. If you don't say anything and you really have to get the scores and then you can record a lot of great things. But if you have a mediocre score, maybe not worked out as good as well as it should be with maybe some ranges that are not suited with parts that are really not so understandable on paper, maybe the dynamics or anything you put on there is not correct. It takes a lot of time to correct that because it's just a machine that you kind of control. You almost program them, so to say.

Speaker 1 (00:29:05):

I'm wondering if you encountered this. So my experience with that orchestra was in the nineties, my dad conducted the inve album, the orchestral record.

Speaker 2 (00:29:18):

Ah, that's great.

Speaker 1 (00:29:19):

When I was like 17. Nice. So I went with him and observed, and the score was written for like six flats, which isn't typical in orchestral music. And they were having a hell of a time reading in six flats. So there were all kinds of technical issues for them. I mean, they got it eventually, but that was throwing them for a loop. They did not get it right away. They just don't normally play in those kinds of keys. I guess

Speaker 2 (00:29:58):

The combination with rock or metal music in flats is always better than a lot of sharps, so to say, because what I've experienced that flats go the ate from up to down, so they are a bit lower. That's why the more dark kind of heavy classical music is always written in flats. And the more bright stuff, the more uplifting things is mostly written in sharps. And the bad thing is that an orchestra already intonates quite high. They're mostly tuned on 4 42. If you then also write a lot of sharps in your score, then it will become really high in intonation. And although it's difficult to read, I actually sometimes transform a score from sharps to flats because I know it will sound better in combination with the guitars and bass in everything that are tuned on four 40.

Speaker 1 (00:30:55):

That's something that only somebody that actually knows what they're doing would know to do.

Speaker 2 (00:31:00):

Yeah. Yeah. It's experience. Because I remember the first time I got a string section in and they played an major chord on top of a band. I didn't know what was happening. I thought, nah, this is wrong. How can it be? And they were convinced they were playing the right thing. And probably if you hear it separately, they were,

Speaker 1 (00:31:22):

Yeah, you were both right.

Speaker 2 (00:31:23):

You were both right. And that's the difficult thing about symphonic mental, especially with working with a lot of real instruments, with real choir, with real orchestra percussion, ethnic instruments, you have to know a lot about the instruments, their limitations, their range, their playing styles to get something out of it that is actually working you. It's the same with asking a singer to sing way too high or too low or too fast. It just doesn't work. You have to know the instruments and then you can actually do great things and really motivate these people to play something beautiful and you can't get mad on them because actually yourself, you yourself are not really knowing what to do. And you just wrote down and work with some samples and you thought, oh yeah, of course it'll just translate. The two back can play really fast. And then you are there at the spot with these instruments and the musicians, and it's the same thing that the brass instruments, they need to breathe. It's a very logical thing, but if you don't write it in the score, they will make up pauses themselves because they have to breathe. And if you keep pushing on that, at some point they will ask you, yeah, I really need to stop playing because I'm seeing a lot of stars before my eyes. Now

(00:32:51):

That

Speaker 1 (00:32:52):

Reminds me a lot of when guitar players program drum parts without

Speaker 2 (00:32:57):

Knowing

Speaker 1 (00:32:58):

What a drummer can actually do in real life. Exactly. It's a bit

Speaker 2 (00:33:02):

Like that.

Speaker 1 (00:33:03):

Yeah. End up with four symbols and two Toms hitting at the exact same time.

Speaker 2 (00:33:08):

Yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:33:09):

All kinds of stuff like that.

Speaker 2 (00:33:10):

And they will be disappointed when the real drummer is starting to play.

Speaker 1 (00:33:15):

Yeah, guilty. I did that a long time ago.

Speaker 2 (00:33:19):

It happens to all of us.

Speaker 1 (00:33:22):

It sounds like a much more complex version of that.

Speaker 2 (00:33:26):

Yeah, it is. But then again, it's the same kind of experience and that's actually the cool thing. I've been working with real orchestras and real ensembles for the last 10 to 12 years, and with every session I do, I gain a lot of new experience, new insights. It's always very inspiring to hear the instruments play and get at somewhere like stored it in your mind that you think, okay, yeah, yeah, actually when I play this range with this type of instrument, it's even a bit nicer. And maybe this is not exactly what I mean, it works, but might be different. So yeah, there's a lot of learning curves so to say.

Speaker 1 (00:34:12):

I think that this is why if a band really wants to have a good orchestral sound, they need to work with someone that actually knows orchestration, not just someone who knows the piano role because exactly, man, I just remember when I've been recording bands and they really want to have a string quartet on it or something like that, and it just doesn't work. It's so off.

Speaker 2 (00:34:39):

It's a romantic idea. It's something that everyone thinks, yes, if I have the chance to work with real strings, I would be great. Then they come in and they actually don't sound like your strings samples from your whatever library,

Speaker 1 (00:34:57):

Not even close,

Speaker 2 (00:34:58):

Not even close. And they are actually a bit too expensive, so you expect even more, and then maybe you didn't write the perfect score for them. So you have to explain things to them that they might not understand their well. Nowadays, I must say the younger people that are graduating from conservator all are much more experienced with playing in bands, playing on click Intonating on four 40. So I must say I've seen it changing even within the last 10 years. The first sessions I did were more like with more traditional trained musicians that came from orchestras that were playing the very traditional stuff. When now I work with people that are maybe graduated a few years, they have much more experience. They don't get scared by headphones, by click tracks, by me saying, okay, we need to go a bit lower in intonation because then it blends more with the track.

(00:36:03):

They're not scared of doubling and they don't feel frustrated because of that. All these things happen actually, and you have to of course speak the language, but also these people start understanding more what you actually want and that you're very honored that they're there, but you also have this goal about what you want to reach. And within the styles that I'm producing, it's always the end results that counts. It's always a bit maybe over the top for these people or maybe a bit, well, not as sophisticated as one would want whilst after studying six years. But then again, in the end of the day, always enjoy this combination of the impacts of the orchestration on top of the heavy band. And I always like their faces when I put on a bit of grunts in their ears and they're like, whoa, what's happening? They feel pretty cool mostly.

Speaker 1 (00:37:07):

That's interesting that you say that they feel like it's not as sophisticated because I've encountered classical musicians feeling that way about soundtracks and about when they hear a symphonic metal thing. Some of them don't feel like it's quote real, but how could it be as sophisticated as a standalone orchestral piece? It has to work with a band with a metal band and a metal band that's based on riffs and a set tempo or multiple tempos, but set tempo per part. It's just a very different approach to music. It can't develop the way that a standalone orchestral piece can.

Speaker 2 (00:37:48):

No, definitely not. But then again, with working with a full orchestra, I actually try to make them standalone as much as possible because what I've learned that if they actually can play the way they are used to play, they will sound better if you make them play too much in sections. So the sections are not complete. They actually don't get this kind of same blend that they normally have. So they are a bit less in timing, a bit less an intonation, and when you actually write the full thing for them to perform, they actually are used to that sound listening to each other, and that works actually the best. So that's also why most of the bands that I produce always release this orchestral bonus album in which you actually hear the full orchestration in the mix. Of course, you need to make a lot of room for everything that's there.

(00:38:52):

Sometimes in intros, breakdowns, whatever. You can actually have the whole orchestra at its full power and full range when bass guitar drums come in and vocals. Of course, you need to blend that in and make room, and you of course adapt your arrangements to that, but mostly not as much as you would expect because if you would do that, they actually will work a bit less. Even with heavy sections, I tend to write cello and double bass because although you can't really need the tone, you still have their attack, you still have the strings kind of vibe plus the violin the first second. Then the altos also intonate on these cellos and bass, and they're very important rhythmically. So if you would leave them away, they would really feel alone while recording. And when you then do an orchestral version, you of course can give more room to the low sections, but they're actually always there when I record them.

Speaker 1 (00:40:00):

It sounds like just the texture is important

Speaker 2 (00:40:03):

In total then at that point the texture is important. Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 1 (00:40:08):

So what's the most difficult part of blending the two? I imagine that distorted rhythm guitars are a challenge to blend with an orchestra.

Speaker 2 (00:40:20):

Yeah, it's a challenge and it's also challenge. The first challenge you have is actually the intonation because first of all, the orchestra has to be intonated well, but most of the time you record the band before you actually record the orchestra because you want the orchestra to play with the final band. So that's also why the pre-production are so important, because even though I know I'm going to record with a full orchestra, I will make a complete pre-production that has all these layers already in the fullest version there. So there's a complete production before where you actually in the end just use it as Rex, but to perform on in the studio for the drums, bassing guitar is very important to know all the layers and also to get the intonation and the tuning of the guitars. I mean, if you would leave out any keys or orchestration and a guitar player would start riffing, and especially with low tunings, there's always this slight tuning thing, right?

Speaker 1 (00:41:34):

Oh yeah. It's definitely a challenge. I mean, things like evert tune have definitely helped a lot.

Speaker 2 (00:41:41):

Yes.

Speaker 1 (00:41:42):

But if you listen to older metal records, the further back you go, the more out of tune they are.

Speaker 2 (00:41:49):

And when you would stick to guitar based drums, you can actually have a little bit of this tuning difference, so to say, because it doesn't need to be pitch perfect, especially when you work with screams and grunts. There's no one which really puts this meter next to, and it can

Speaker 1 (00:42:14):

Actually sound kind of cool within reason.

Speaker 2 (00:42:17):

Yeah, yeah, within reason, it's cool, but actually when you start adding lots of orchestration in choirs, you feel there's a distance when it's a bit too off in intonation. So when the guitars are already a bit coy, so to say, and they have maybe a slight kind of higher attack than sustain, when you start adding layers, it's becoming really difficult because then you keep hearing little intonation problems in combining the lower regions of the orchestra with the guitars, having the bass barone singers, and it's hard for them to work with these guitars and bass if they're not perfectly in tune, and that actually makes a big difference in the mix as well. So when you have them very well in tune and of course still performed in a heavy way because you don't want to lose that, it makes a big difference if you can blend in the orchestra nicely on the band because if it kind of interferes with each other, you have to start carving out some frequencies that kind of resonate a bit much. And if they're not having the same resonance as the guitar, they're actually sounding out of tune, and then you have to carve stuff out while actually these resonant kind of frequencies also make it real. So that's actually what you want to hear. You want to hear a bit of the alive sound, which is a bit less perfect than the sample libraries. So that's a big thing.

Speaker 1 (00:43:58):

One of the ways that I used to make sure that guitars would be in tune before evert tune, Evert tune didn't really get big until I was doing URM and no longer recording. So what I would do before that was program a synth bass, just to have it as a tuning reference and then track the guitars on top of that. So immediately

Speaker 2 (00:44:23):

Exactly,

Speaker 1 (00:44:24):

If you're just a little sharp, a little flat, because I've noticed that in a lot of metal guitars recorded first, and you can have guitars that you think are perfectly in tune.

Speaker 2 (00:44:37):

Definitely.

Speaker 1 (00:44:37):

And then, yeah, you start adding other things and it's like, wait a second, this sounds sour,

Speaker 2 (00:44:43):

And you start blaming the bass guitar, stuff like that.

Speaker 1 (00:44:48):

Yeah, it's the guitars.

Speaker 2 (00:44:49):

Yeah. So actually what you were doing with the syn programming I do in pre-production with the whole orchestration. So because these samples that I use are of course in perfect pitch and hear immediately when you would double a guitar line with a certain orchestral line if it's in tune or not, or you use too much of a modulation where it, you lift up the tone a bit too much, what probably will clash in the end with the strings.

Speaker 1 (00:45:21):

So you're using a tuning reference the whole time?

Speaker 2 (00:45:24):

Yeah, tuning reference as in the programs orchestration,

Speaker 1 (00:45:29):

So to say. Yeah. Yeah. I was curious how you go about it, so that makes sense. You can't get that wrong if you're listening to them together.

Speaker 2 (00:45:37):

You can still get it wrong, but yeah, I guess you can,

(00:45:40):

Because sometimes it's just really hard to get all this information together, and still the guitar player wants to have a certain attack to its tone, and so it's sometimes a bit of a compromise, but never very hearable. I always feel like going into this tunnel vision while recording, and sometimes you kind of overdo it even, and you keep listening, oh, is this in tune? Is this in tune? But well, if then you listen back the next week, you wouldn't even know that you were thinking about that spot so many times. But yet, the tuning is one of the reasons why the orchestra and the band would work to together really well. It's the same that if you forget to mention the tuning of a piano of any other instrument that is used to be tuned in 4 42, maybe while recording and having the band a bit low in volume while focusing on the orchestra or the choir or whatever, they kind of start using their own tuning, and then in the end, when you would start mixing, you would actually see or hear what's happening. I don't get it blended in nicely together and tuning is everything in that perspective.

Speaker 1 (00:47:00):

Interesting. I didn't think that that was going to be the most challenging aspect. It's very challenging. Yeah, it makes perfect sense,

Speaker 2 (00:47:07):

Especially in the low mid frequencies. So much stuff happening there. I mean, the higher strings are sometimes even nice when they're a little bit further away. They make this kind of eerie sound. And also trumpets can still be a bit high with the right energy, but especially the horns, the fiola, all these instruments, if they don't match an intonation, you can't really use them in the end, just the texture, and that's too bad.

Speaker 1 (00:47:40):

Now, what about the organization of sessions like these? I imagine that they're pretty expansive and you've got to have some sort of a system for making sure that your sessions don't become a complete mess.

Speaker 2 (00:47:54):

Yeah, it's actually the time management is super important. I mean, it's also a matter of experience in knowing what you can kind of can do with an orchestra or choir or any other session musician within the time that you have. So you should be realistic about it. But as you know, in these kind of productions, it's always also a budget thing. You can't just say, okay, let's do an extra day of recordings within an orchestra. If you're not sure you need it. Actually, it's already too expensive most of the time, so you try to see what you can fit in. The times that I went to Prague, for example, and always on the first day, the conductor said to me, ah, it's much way too much that you try to record now. Ah, you should be happy if we can maybe record half of it.

(00:48:47):

And the first time I really went, I got stressed out. Second time I still felt like, ah, shit. But the times afterwards I knew, okay, I know this guy is kind of playing it safe, but I'm actually quite confident if we work really hard that we can do it. But yeah, then as a producer, I'm there behind the desk reading this course, giving the instructions, and you need to constantly be making notes, checking things, are they good enough? Is this something I can copy? Is this something I can edit in time or should we redo it? Are all the nodes, there are all these things. So yeah, it's a very intensive thing to do. Same with choirs, but then again, it's the experience that makes it better. And especially every time you do it, you gain knowledge of the people that you work with actually.

(00:49:45):

And this experience also makes it much easier the next time. So when you know what artists strong, weak points of people that you work with, not only orchestras or choirs, but session musicians, band members, anyone, then you can really anticipate to that planning wise, because no one wants to feel rushed or pushed. And also the orchestra doesn't sound better, even though they're super professional. If they feel they're doing something rushed, it will sound like that or not as good as it could be. But yeah, it takes a lot of preparation in scores and pre-production in getting the sessions right, in getting all technical details right, because there's also the fact that it should sound great and everything should be there. So there's a lot of sides to it, so to say.

Speaker 1 (00:50:39):

Well, how much time do you normally get with an orchestra? Not

Speaker 2 (00:50:43):

Much, right? Depends. I mean, I've done, I tried to fit in an album once in one day, which is not very realistic. So that

Speaker 1 (00:50:55):

That's fast.

Speaker 2 (00:50:56):

Yeah, that's fast. So with the upcoming Epica album, we recorded about three days, and then I'm able to do about, let's say 50 to maybe 20 minutes of music per day, which is a lot already. It's normally they're used to do nine to 10 minutes a day, but if I prepare my things well, and I know also which parts I can copy, which of course makes it more efficient, I'm actually able to do it like that. But it takes a lot of planning and a lot of overview to be able to fit that in three days.

Speaker 1 (00:51:38):

What goes into the planning?

Speaker 2 (00:51:39):

Well, the planning, of course is based on different things. I mean, do you want to record with a full orchestra on the same time or do you want to have sections or some parts tut and some parts in sections, what should be there first because they're all anticipating on each other. And then of course, there's a lot of communication involved about getting the right tracks over there, getting the scores printed on time, getting them checked, having the conductor, giving maybe some feedback on things. And during the sessions, it's a lot of communication with the engineer, with actually the translator because they don't speak English very well in Prague, for example. Nope. So there's always this line in between, and then you have a guy there that takes notes of all the score of all the takes. I also write that down. I really check bar per bar if I have everything. And then in the end of the day, I have to give my kind of confirmation, yes, this is finished right now, otherwise, yeah, they will never say it's finished. They will just continue till it's five and then go home, and

Speaker 1 (00:52:51):

Then it's finished. Do the bands ever get involved in the orchestration or do they basically just say, yes, that's cool? No, we don't like that.

Speaker 2 (00:53:02):

Yeah, so it depends on the band. So with Epica, I work closely with their keyboard player, but with, for example, power Wolf, I'm the one who is actually making them and together with the composer of the music, I'm going back and forth, but they don't have a hand in it themselves. So it depends on the band. There are actually bands that I produce that are very symphonic but don't have a keyboard player. It's maybe a bit strange, but that's actually the way it sometimes works.

Speaker 1 (00:53:37):

It's almost like you are the extra member.

Speaker 2 (00:53:41):

Yeah, some bands call it like that. And it's not only that I'm doing the orchestrations, but also within a production, although I don't call, I will never call it like that myself because I find that a bit too much so to say. I'm there for them, but I don't want to say, yeah, I'm the next member, I'm the extra member. That's too much. So I'm honored if they will call me like that in the end of the process. And often they do in interviews, but I actually try to behave like that because for me, it's very important to get into the mind of the band, into the concept, into how do they think, what's important for them, what are they listening to, what are the next steps, what are their personal situations, what are their ambitions? All these kinds of things are really trying to get very close to them.

(00:54:39):

And I can't do that with everything I'm doing. Obviously that takes too much time and effort, but with the bigger productions that I'm doing and the longer ones that I'm doing from A to Z, so to say, I try to behave like that, and it really works out. It's little bit like the color palette that I was talking about before, the concept, the direction that you try to establish. I also see a part of that as trying to get involved in the band for a half a year, for a few months, for a year. And sometimes you build up a very nice relationship that lasts for years or your lifetime. But I do feel we are making music, which is very personal. Everyone has their own story, dance are complex kind of families, and I want to try to get to know that. I want to understand that when I'm working with them, so I know what kind of decisions we're making that really works for me like that. It's a thing that I also enjoy on a personal level.

Speaker 1 (00:55:44):

Hey everybody, if you're enjoying this podcast and you should know that it's brought to you by URM Academy, URM Academy's mission is to create the next generation of audio professionals by giving them the inspiration and information to hone their craft and build a career doing what they love. You've probably heard me talk about Nail the Mix before, and if you're a member, you already know how amazing it is. The beginning of the month, nail the mix members, get the raw multitracks to a new song by artists like Lama, God Angels and Airwaves, knock Loose OPEC shuga, bring me the Horizon. Gaira asking Alexandria Machine Head and Papa Roach among many, many others over 60 at this point. Then at the end of the month, the producer who mixed it comes on and does a live streaming walkthrough of exactly how they mix the song on the album and takes your questions live on air.

(00:56:36):

And these are guys like TLA Will Putney, Jens Borin, Dan Lancaster to Mattson, Andrew Wade, and many, many more. You'll also get access to Mix Lab, which is our collection of dozens of bite-sized mixing tutorials that cover all the basics as well as Portfolio Builder, which is a library of pro quality, multi-track cleared for use in your portfolio. So your career will never again be held back by the quality of your source material. And for those of you who really want to step up their game, we have another membership tier called URM Enhance, which includes everything I already told you about, and access to our massive library of fast tracks, which are deep, super detailed courses on intermediate and advanced topics like gain, staging, mastering, low end and so forth. It's over 500 hours of content. And man, let me tell you, this stuff is just insanely detailed. Enhanced members also get access to one-on-ones, which are basically office hour sessions with us and mixed rescue, which is where we open up one of your mixes and fix it up and talk you through exactly what we're doing at every step. So if any of that sounds interesting to you, if you're ready to level up your mixing skills in your audio career, head over to U RM Academy to find out more. Out of curiosity, why did you go for the master's degree? That's kind of extreme?

Speaker 2 (00:57:59):

Well, it's a bit extreme, but I felt after my study, I did a study called Music Production and Keyboards, which was a perfect combination for me. It was quite a new study back then in between all the more traditional studies that were either Jess or classic. And I got the chance to be one of the first students in that study, and it was conservatory. So you had a lot of things that you learned, like theory and history and whatever. And of course you had your classes in music production and keyboards and the bands you had to play. And after I finished that study, I felt I'm able to work on these productions now, but I still feel I can't really go in depth with the orchestration. I felt I was more a tourist in the orchestrational world than a specialist. And that's one of the reasons that I decided to go for the master study in classical arrangement. And actually the same I did for classical piano at the same time, which was quite a tough job.

Speaker 1 (00:59:09):

So dual master's?

Speaker 2 (00:59:10):

Yes, so a master's degree in classical piano, because I felt the same with keyboards. I felt, okay, I can play. I was really educated as a keyboard player, so with Syns, with Hammond, with all these kind of things. And I felt I still missed a basis. I was playing some chopper and some debut C and stuff like that, but I still felt a bit like I touched it, but I dunno a lot about it. And within the years that I did the Master, I had the time and the opportunity with great teachers that to really get into this material very deep and I still benefit by it today.

Speaker 1 (00:59:53):

So you must have had good time management back then too.

Speaker 2 (00:59:56):

Yeah. Well, for me, time management within a production and in my whole life is everything. It's probably for a lot of producers, but for me, and it's also one of the things that I think is very important for bands to have a good time management. When I start a production, I'm very much communicating to these bands, making overviews, making plans, getting that on paper, discussing all these elements so everyone feels involved and know what is going on, when what should happen. And that kind of, I really try to make myself responsible for this whole planning of things. And especially with symphonic metal, there's so much sides to it that also bands don't really have an idea of that. It's just a very important thing to know, okay, we start here with the demoing and one and a half year later we have the master, and everything in between is planned. And once when something goes wrong, we have a backup plan. But yet time management is everything.

Speaker 1 (01:01:08):

So it's interesting to me that you're defining these projects in terms of six months, a year, a year and a half, where a lot of producers define projects in terms of six weeks, eight weeks.

Speaker 2 (01:01:23):

So most productions that I do, and of course, like I said, not with all the bands that I orchestrate or mix or I don't do that with every band. It's impossible. Then I would clone myself 10 times, which would be a nice thing for the future maybe. But with the bigger productions that I'm doing, then when I'm also responsible for the whole thing, yeah, it's mostly a cycle cycle of one to one and a half here from the early demos to delivering the master, the bonus tracks and everything like that.

Speaker 1 (01:01:58):

Wow. So they really involve you early.

Speaker 2 (01:02:01):

Yeah, most of the time. Yes. Yes.

Speaker 1 (01:02:04):

And

Speaker 2 (01:02:04):

I really grow into the music and I grow into the mind and the concept. And together with this band or project, I really try to evolve in time and we grow together towards this end result. And yeah, it's a special process that I really enjoy on multi-level. So not only the musical level, also the personal one, but I also try to make a nice time out of it. I really think everyone should have a good time, feel good about what we're doing on many levels, and then I feel we can create a great product together.

Speaker 1 (01:02:44):

Let's talk a little about time management

Speaker 2 (01:02:46):

Because

Speaker 1 (01:02:47):

You've mentioned it a lot, but I want to get into some specifics because first of all, you're talking about learning classical piano on a master's degree level and arrangement, so that are usually people do one or the other, not both. And then talking about time management with these super intricate productions, how do you approach it? How do you think about it? There's got to be some sort of method you use. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (01:03:13):

So what I normally do is really count back from the moment that I know would be the deadline of the master delivery. I really start making a whole schedule in, for example, Excel. That just goes week per week. And we have lots of goals. So we have goals to finish demos, goals to finish, finish vocals, lyrics, orchestration, and I have lots of steps in that. So you have an online demo phase, you have a demo phase where actually band members come to me, sit together behind the computer, it's all digital, mostly by then guitars could be real, but sometimes also programmed nowadays, especially when a keyboard player wants to ride a nice riff. It's mostly better if it's programmed than plate with all the band members. I try to get in this workflow together. So you have the demo phase, the digital kind of together demo phase, then we go into pre-production, into writing the vocal lines, demoing the vocals, finishing the lyrics, finishing the orchestrations, adding layers to that.

(01:04:28):

And then mostly I have a digital pre-production, so you can actually listen to the whole thing, record it digitally. And then I have a band or a studio pre-production where actually even the symphonic metal bands that are depending on a lot of programming to the studio here for one or two weeks. And we sit together a bit more in an old school way, just everything. Plugin micd in a very simple way. We play with the guide tracks, we play on click and we try to experience what happens if we play a riff, if we play a part, if we play the whole song, does it feel right? Does it work with the vocals? Is the tempo right? Or maybe some breaks at the wrong moment, some crossover. All these kind of things are very important to feel as the band. And the band also gets prepared like that because they have to learn the parts.

(01:05:27):

They have to play them already. For most production that I do, I really want the band to play before they go into the studio. Of course I understand they can't do it live, but I want them to have played the music and not figure the music out when they're here next to me in the control room, which also happens with quite some bands and all these levels of demoing, pre-production, writing, finishing, checking, double checking, choosing which song should be the album tracks, which song should be the bonus tracks. All these things are actually steps before I go into recording so I can really plan out those things. It's really like two weeks for this, three weeks for that. The band is on tour, then we need a break, maybe not planned the next week, but the week after because they have to come back and they miss their family and then come back to the studio.

(01:06:23):

Some things can happen simultaneously because I can also work on orchestrations while the band is on tour. I can work on editing vocals of the pre-production or maybe I can have things scored already. And then once you start recording, you can actually plan these recordings pretty well, especially when you have some experience with the band already. You talk about it. And actually I all do that backwards. So now I'm actually talking the other way around, but I'm all doing that backwards. So from the master, the mix, the editing, the recordings, the pre-production, the demo phase, and there are all kinds of layers to that. And for the productions that I'm doing, epica Power Wolf at those bands, they really demand like planning of almost like one and a half year.

Speaker 1 (01:07:14):

Those bands have to have their shit together

Speaker 2 (01:07:16):

More or less or less. And otherwise they'll try to make them get their shit together.

Speaker 1 (01:07:23):

Yeah, I mean, I know that there's a lot of bands who don't prepare at all and just go to the studio and hope for the best, but I don't see how that's possible in these genres.

Speaker 2 (01:07:36):

No, in these genres, it's totally not possible to not be prepared. And while you still would try to make the best out of it, but I'm very sure you can't reach another level. I really also want the band to come out of a production process like that and feel, ah, we've grown again as a band. We can't wait to play these songs live. And they evolved the way we would've hoped for if we listened back to the previous album and think back of the previous process, we really made steps. We are going to take these steps into a future production, maybe even some ideas for a live production, which I know a lot of bands that hardly rehearse when they go on tour and they just say, yeah, we have our backing tracks. And the first few shows will be a bit shit.

Speaker 1 (01:08:30):

Warmup shows. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (01:08:31):

We'll be warmup shows. So more and more bands I see doing pre-production for shows as well, going into rehearsing. And I always try to enhance that even though they feel at first, but we know our part, so then we can do our thing. I say, no, there's more to it. Let's play together. Let's see what happens. You don't know how well a riff works if you can really play it together with bass and drums on the floor, and otherwise I'm sure we have to make up things to Ah, it's not as cool as I thought. Or maybe it's a bit too slow. Yeah, once we start recording, it's too late. Actually.

Speaker 1 (01:09:12):

That makes sense. I can just see it becoming a disaster if people wait

Speaker 2 (01:09:16):

And especially when you're so much layering things. I mean, if you would be a punk band, it's fine to do another take and you don't lose a lot of time, but if you would change and a too late moment, you would change too much. It's a disaster. It will take a lot of time and you have to do a lot of tricks and things to make it work, and that decreases the level of production in the end.

Speaker 1 (01:09:45):

So with this many levels of sounds like there's a bunch of levels of pre-production that just keep on getting more complex, do you ever worry about losing the magic at all when you're finally ready for the real recording?

Speaker 2 (01:10:03):

Yeah, I understand what you mean. Then again, the magic in there. It's a bit hard to describe. I feel within symphonic metal, the magic is not so much in the moment. The magic is much more in the writing orchestration process, getting things together really well, and then of course in performance during recordings. But everything in between is quite a technical process. So you can think of a great riff with added orchestrations, but if you can't really try it out, it won't. It will maybe sound great in your mind, but you need a lot of time to actually get it audible, and that takes a lot of time and effort. So I rather take that time and effort to really produce and program and demo it instead of hoping for the magic to happen at a certain point, so to say.

Speaker 1 (01:11:04):

Fair enough. Yeah, this type of music doesn't just come together.

Speaker 2 (01:11:08):

No, it's really a huge building that you have to build. And yeah, you can sometimes walk into some magic, but I do believe when you prepare things really well, there might be some space for this magic to happen again. But if you would not have the right basis and the right planning and the right structure, this magic probably won't happen or maybe happens at the wrong moment.

Speaker 1 (01:11:38):

I think also when we're talking about magic, people talk a lot about imperfections, like cool imperfections, but those are the things that will make this type of recording not work is a lot of those types of imperfections that when you have just two guitars, bass and drums and vocals, you can get away with them, happy accidents,

Speaker 2 (01:12:02):

Things

Speaker 1 (01:12:03):

Like that. There's not the same kind of room for that.

Speaker 2 (01:12:06):

No, not so much. But then again, my challenge is always to still have a bit of this, let's say rock and roll vibe going on at least, I mean, it's maybe more in percentages than the whole thing, but I do feel that a drummer, bass player, singer should be able to feel free and perform. And that's why I feel if we prepare really well and we've demoed preproduced and rehearsed, there is some room for these things, but they're based on what you already figured out works. So yeah, the patterns are there, but if it happens that you feel, ah, it's really great what you did there and maybe we didn't talk about it, but it's actually this accent, but you just played slightly different or with a different kind of symbol, and that came kind of spontaneously. It's more these small things that happens instead of the big things.

(01:13:10):

But I still try to create space for that and really have people perform in a way, not just trying to act as computers because there's a big difference. There are bands that in this genre start programming everything, drums, the whole thing, because they feel, yeah, I mean it's all about the layers and all about the big sounds. And in the end, the vocals, I don't believe in that really. We invested a lot of time and money in building a great studio with a great room. I have 20, 25 snare drums to check out. So I'm really all about recording the real thing. And then of course, adding any enhancement, layering whatever's needed to create the sound we're aiming for, but the basis should be real and performed. So in a sense, and the margin still has this spontaneous kind of energy, so to say. When did you

Speaker 1 (01:14:13):

Fit in learning how to record and mix? There's just so many different things to be an expert at.

Speaker 2 (01:14:18):

Yeah, well, it's also a bit of the thing is that I like to be this center beat. So I like every step of the process. The only thing that I never really do is master my own productions because I am so much into all details that if I did the mix, I'm completely saturated and I don't know what I should do anymore. So that's one of the parts that I don't do. But I actually started growing into that, and especially since I do such an intensive preparation and pre-production, you actually start building up the concept and the vision of the mix and the whole process, the end result actually on a very early stage. So I found out that when you then would say, okay, I'm not the one that would be recording it or mixing it, it's difficult to communicate all these details to someone else.

(01:15:20):

Again, it's possible, but it takes much more time and sometimes it might give something very interesting, but sometimes I also experience that might go into a wrong direction that you feel this is actually really not the thing that we are looking for. I understand what you try to do, but it's so far away from the concept and then it's taking a lot of time and maybe a bit of negative energy to turn that around again. So I felt if I would do all these steps, I would also take almost every step in the whole production.

Speaker 1 (01:16:00):

That makes sense. Well, back to one of the first things we talked about was one of the first things you do, you mentioned was so important was defining a direction and solidifying the vision. And sounds to me like defining the direction, solidifying the vision is going to usually be in opposition to bringing in another producer because they're going to have to interpret your direction and it will become partially theirs too, or mostly theirs.

Speaker 2 (01:16:32):

Yeah, exactly. That's a very difficult thing. So with some productions I did that, but mostly took a lot of time to get that done and to get that same vision in there.

Speaker 1 (01:16:45):

I'm sure sometimes it's okay

Speaker 2 (01:16:47):

And sometimes you can actually already get someone in the process, of course. So on a much earlier stage. So I also try to involve these people, but it's difficult. It's very difficult. And I found out that it's not an easy thing to have this process of a year communicated in a few steps to someone new. Sometimes it works out really well and sometimes it doesn't work. But I'm always open for anything. And that's also a thing that we talked about with the remote recordings. When you can prepare and you can work towards a process, you can actually adapt things and you can adapt to a certain workflow. You can have a certain preparation to work towards a certain process in your production. And when you would know, okay, I'm not the one that is going to mix this album, I can already involve someone, I can already talk to someone, show pre-production, explain in overviews what is important, in what stage, what is the main concept, all these things.

(01:17:58):

So you can actually prepare that and the earlier, you know, can adapt to that. But I do like to do it all, so to say that's actually the most efficient way I found out because we are actually, especially with orchestra choirs, all kinds of layers. Sometimes I work if I wouldn't do premixes, I work with more than a thousand tracks per song. I do, of course. So also when someone else in the end would be mixing it, I still do a lot of premixes on our mixing desk on the sessions that I'm working on to already get a lot of vision and balance and sound in there. So it's sometimes also best of both worlds, so to say.

Speaker 1 (01:18:46):

Are you a one man operation or do you have an assistant?

Speaker 2 (01:18:50):

Yeah, so I work on a daily basis. I work with an assistant that is doing some engineering stuff, some editing, some mixed prepping. He's a very technical guy, so if something gets broken, he's the one I ask for otherwise would be a mess over here. So I'm really focused on the music, on everything that you can hear actually, so to say. And the communication. And my assistant does a lot of technical stuff and a lot of things that I don't feel are the vision or the sound. It's like the editing and the technical stuff,

Speaker 1 (01:19:31):

Not the best use of your time.

Speaker 2 (01:19:33):

I try to make the best use of it and sometimes I can't let go, but I try to anyway.

Speaker 1 (01:19:40):

I find that a lot of people hold themselves back in life because they're not willing to delegate tasks to people. And oftentimes what they'll say is no one is going to do it as well as me, and I understand what they're saying, but I think that that's true at first. But if you train somebody properly, you can even train them to be better than you at certain things. For instance, some people who are more interested in the big vision of things don't have the, I mean they can edit fine, but they're not that kind of brain. Some people are wired like a computer

Speaker 2 (01:20:19):

And

Speaker 1 (01:20:19):

Are perfect for editing and they enjoy it. Some people are more creative and even though they can, it's maybe not the best use of their time. And so maybe at first when they train the assistant, the assistant won't be as good as them, but if they train them properly within a few months, the assistant might actually be better than them at editing.

Speaker 2 (01:20:38):

Oh yeah. And that's actually the case. I've been working with this assistant now for six to seven years, the way he sets up things or edit things or whatever, I would never be able to do that as fast and as good as possible as he does. I mean the same with the whole patch. I mean, yeah, I can do it, but he's so much quicker with everything that once he knows what I want, he can just make it happen. And I'm actually having more people like that. Also in scoring. It takes so much time to really go from the notes digitally to go on paper on score that would take me weeks extra per production that I simply don't have. So I do give this guy all the information, all the notes, all in stems, all fine, and this guy writes it down very traditionally. And then in the anti check it, we do some adaptions, but this also would take way too much time, and the guy that I'm working with is doing that so much quicker and better than I would be able to do it right now.

Speaker 1 (01:21:52):

I'm sure you've done it enough.

Speaker 2 (01:21:54):

I've did it a lot so I know what it is so I can check it really easily and give my feedback on it, but on top of everything that I already want to do, this would be way too much. And yeah, that works perfect. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:22:10):

Yeah. That's one thing that people ask all the time when they're first learning is, should I learn how to do this thing or just find someone else who can do it, like editing, and I always say, learn how to do the thing

Speaker 2 (01:22:22):

Definitely

Speaker 1 (01:22:22):

As well as possible. And then eventually your goal should be to get to a point where you're too busy to do it and then you find somebody, but you should learn how to do it in the first place, or you'll never be able to train somebody properly.

Speaker 2 (01:22:38):

Yeah, exactly. And it's the same with doing premixes. It's also not something that I do myself, because if I did the recordings of a choir, I can give a few instructions and then the engineer assistant can do the premixes and he knows what I am looking for in my mix and the stems that I need. We can always go back, of course at a certain point, but if you train and build up this relationship with someone, it's worth a lot and it's very efficient and it can be a best of both worlds. Like you say, some people are better in one thing, some people are better in another thing. And that's the same thing that I feel with mastering. I never have felt that I'm the one that would have had the last vision, unlike the very small EQ details and the loudness. I can give my opinion and I will, but I feel that if I'm working on a production for a year, and I also did the mix, I'm very pleased to send it over to a mastering engineer that hasn't heard this music before.

(01:23:49):

And he gives me an honest, fresh feedback. He does what he does best and has this total audio file kind of system that I couldn't even listen to, so to say, and he sends it back and I just feel, whoa, this has evolved and I wouldn't know what to do myself. So I definitely feel your words in that aspect. Yeah, you shouldn't be doing everything yourself. Find great people to work with and invest time in them. Of course, you should know your things and you have to give feedback and still lead the process, but if you have the right people around you, you can do so much more and so much better. That's definitely true.

Speaker 1 (01:24:36):

It's like they say about a restaurant owner, they say that a restaurant owner should have worked every single position in the restaurant. At some point they're not going to know how to run a restaurant.

Speaker 2 (01:24:48):

And sometimes it's like I'm pretty horrible at rolling cables, for example, and luckily my engineer is much better in that. But sometimes also after a session, just enjoy rolling cables and try to get better at that. It's a silly example, but it's all the details that matter and keep it interesting.

Speaker 1 (01:25:12):

So do you enjoy the recording and mixing process as much as everything else, or do you just consider it part of the whole thing and

Speaker 2 (01:25:22):

Yeah, I definitely consider it part of the whole thing because for me, the creative kind of side of the production conceptually especially, and the vision that we made is also a part of the recordings and the mix still

Speaker 1 (01:25:39):

The way it sounds.

Speaker 2 (01:25:40):

Yeah, the way it sounds and the way it's performed and all the choices that are being made should connect to this concept that you've created. To be honest, I mean for me, the whole preparation and creation side of it is the most exciting thing to it. I really strongly feel for that.

Speaker 1 (01:26:02):

That's what you feel as an artist basically.

Speaker 2 (01:26:04):

Yeah, the artist in me is much more motivated than then again, I also enjoy the change of the work that you're doing. So I also enjoy after spending hours and hours orchestrating that you actually start recording drums and getting the real thing on tape, so to say. But then again, after recording two weeks, I'm also happy to go back to something else. So for me, it's really this change of all the aspects that keep it interesting. So I would never have the ambition to only record or only mix or only orchestrate. It's really the combination that keep me fresh, keep and keeps it motivating for me. And then after a big recording process, I can't wait to start mixing. The hunger grows with every step, and then again, after doing this mix, I'm hungry again for a new kind of project in orchestration, recording, whatever. So I really like the versatility and that's actually one of the things that I love about my job, and I'm not pretending that I would do everything the best myself, but I do feel that I can guard a certain process and lead a certain process. And that's for me, a big part of the reason why I also try to involve in most recordings and the mix.

Speaker 1 (01:27:37):

I mean, if you look at one of the most successful producers of all time, I don't think he would say that he's the best at everything. Rick Rubin is known for basically doing nothing of the engineering.

Speaker 2 (01:27:52):

That's actually my dream doing nothing. Yeah,

Speaker 1 (01:27:57):

But he does a lot.

Speaker 2 (01:27:58):

Yeah,

Speaker 1 (01:27:59):

He just doesn't do the engineering. But just because you said the thing about being able to lead the project, this is a guy that does everything from Kanye to Slayer to slip, not to red, hot chili peppers to everything in between, and it's all successful because he knows how to lead the projects. So there's a strong case I think for it being, I think it's more important to know how to lead something than to do every technical thing.

Speaker 2 (01:28:30):

Exactly, and that's exactly my vision about production. It's much more about the process, what is very important to me than every detail or every engineering detail, whatever. I mean, I do believe that if you have the right vision and you've have the right planning, right approach that all these details will be a logical kind of choice,

Speaker 1 (01:28:56):

Right? Team

Speaker 2 (01:28:58):

With the right team of course. And especially when you start working on a certain level with a certain level of the team around the band with of course a certain level of musicianship of songwriting, then you don't have to talk about, yeah, you should tune your guitar or no, this cable is broken or it's not about those things. It's much more about what is the process, what is the concept. Of course I can play this chord or this riff, but what should happen with it and what is the reason?

Speaker 1 (01:29:35):

Well, the things like the broken cable do matter. Of course they do matter, but I think when you're first starting or not super advanced yet or still getting there, those kinds of things are still novel. If it's the first time you've encountered it and you don't know,

Speaker 2 (01:29:58):

Of course

Speaker 1 (01:29:58):

You don't know why, there's that shitty noise in your guitar signal and then you realize it's a bad cable, that's a big deal. But once you have enough experience, those are just things that happen and that you don't even think about it. Exactly. There's that noise change, the cable, the end. Yeah. So it's not that stuff doesn't matter.

Speaker 2 (01:30:20):

Exactly. And I do feel that also on a creative level, you can have these kind of fame broken cable moments that if you are looking for a certain harmony, if you're looking for a certain addition to a part, you can have things that are kind of unspoken and already decided or solved. And that's actually the level I want to try to reach with a band that you don't need to discuss every detail. You are working towards a certain kind of, how do you say it, almost a same state of mind on a high level also together with a team around the band and in my studio that you really know, okay, this is what we're aiming for and we don't need to discuss everything. We know what we are doing. We know what we're going for. And then even on a creative level, you can have this broken cable situation where might be solved before you've even noticed it, so to say. Yeah,

Speaker 1 (01:31:27):

It's you just hear that there's a problem and you fix it.

Speaker 2 (01:31:30):

Exactly. And even if there's not a problem, but a slight taste matter, so to say, it might not even be discussed because it's an obvious choice within the color palette, the concept that we've created together.

Speaker 1 (01:31:45):

So that's got to take a lot of trust.

Speaker 2 (01:31:47):

It does. It does. Yeah. Everybody, you need to earn that. It's not something that I kind of demand from a band. You can't demand,

Speaker 1 (01:31:56):

You can't demand it or buy it,

Speaker 2 (01:31:57):

You can't demand it. No. It's something that you have to grow into. It's a bit like mentioning being an extra band member in the production period. It's also a trust thing. It's a personal thing. It's getting on that same level, so to say. And then again, it doesn't work with all the bands, it doesn't work with all the band members. But yeah, it does work a lot of times. And when it works, you can really reach high peaks, so to say.

Speaker 1 (01:32:26):

What do you think it takes to build trust with a new band? And the reason I'm asking is because in the URM community, and also I get asked this question outside of there all the time, people will not understand why bands won't take their suggestions, why they don't listen to them. And I always think two things, A, it's the wrong idea and get over your own idea. B, more likely they don't trust you and they don't trust you just because they don't know you well enough. You haven't proven yourself to them. You don't have this massive track record of albums that they love. So not every band is able to work with their ideal choice for a producer that's just like it is for a producer that producers want to end up working with only bands that they love. Well, bands also only want to work with producers that they love, but that's a goal for both of them to aspire to. At the early stages, a band can't afford usually the people that they want to work with. And at the early stages, a producer can't attract the bands they want to work with, so they got to earn trust.

Speaker 2 (01:33:40):

And even in the most perfect situation where budget is no issue, it's still not a match made in heaven per se. So even if you think this is the perfect guy for the job, if you had the first phone call with him and you think, ah, he was saying quite a lot of other things that I thought were important, it might not always be the perfect thing for the band, for the music, there's always this side to that that you need to be honest to yourself. First of all, for me it's very important that I also work with bands or music that I do understand that I'm not working with styles of music that I actually not really familiar in because then I would say things that these band members or these musicians would pick up as, ah, that's maybe a bit ignorant or not a very good comment, so to say, I know what he means. Inauthentic.

(01:34:38):

Yeah, indeed. It's like if I would say something about a jazz piano court, yeah, probably these guys know, the guys know much better if he has been studying that for six years. So I do believe, first of all, you have to do something that you feel you're comfortable with yourself, you like in style and you know have some experience with, and you've also heard a lot of this style, the ins and outs, so to say, because then you can speak the language of this band. If you don't speak this language and you say you don't know, for example, what a guitar is tuned in and you make a comment about a riff, they say, yeah, but that's actually not possible or whatever. There's this mismatch in communication. So there is something that you have to feel secure about knowing about what you're doing, what styles you are strong in,

Speaker 1 (01:35:36):

And also the culture of the style. I think

Speaker 2 (01:35:39):

The culture of the style, the language they speak, right? It's very important that they have to be a little bit of your blood type, so to say. Not a hundred percent, but at least 50%. If you wear a pink glitter shirt and they come in a black old clothes, then there is a slight problem, which might result to a very interesting outcome, but not per se. That's one of the first things, because I meet quite a lot of producers that are doing many different styles, and once they start talking about metal rock or symphonic metal, I think, yeah, you really don't know what you're talking about. So if they start talking about it with me, I would never send a band to them, although they're good engineers and they know how to write songs and stuff like that. It's just a very different language, very kind of different scene.

(01:36:36):

Then there's something that is very important is the way you communicate. I always have the situation and I actually tell it out loud to the bands. I'm not the one that knows it all, and I also don't pretend to be the one that knows it all, but I also say, you are also not the one that knows it all. So we both don't know. So whenever we feel strongly about a certain aspect of something, let's talk about it. Let's just be honest about it. Let's not have an ego about things, but I know what I want. Let's be open for things. So that also starts with yourself because if you as a producer really try to open up and also communicate in a honest and a little bit a vulnerable way. So also saying, I am also not the one that knows it all. Then this band feels okay, we are a little bit on the same level.

(01:37:39):

Maybe this guy knows a bit more about what knobs to turn and has a bigger track record, but I know a little bit more about guitar playing and the pedals that I use, and I try to respect his sights if he also respects my sights. So it's a mutual kind of understanding, and that's something that is very different with everyone. So some people are very easy and are very open and very easy to communicate with and are open to suggestions and to bring in stuff and also like to listen. And of course you have people who are completely the opposite, but I actually found out that most musicians that are growing in their careers and constantly creating something good, not only live, but in albums and how they look and the whole scene they create mostly these people are pretty open-minded and very good communicative, but you have to earn that trust in that by really put yourself a bit on the same level. So not thinking I'm above them or also not beneath them, because then you're trying to back for things that also doesn't work.

Speaker 1 (01:39:02):

Interestingly enough, last night I did a podcast episode with Jacoby Sheex from Papa Roach and his production team, Colin Brit, and they're working on an album right now, and it's interesting that you say that because a whole different kind of band than what you work with, but they've been around forever definitely

Speaker 2 (01:39:25):

And

Speaker 1 (01:39:25):

Have changed their style multiple times, multiple times, and just started, they started working with Colin five, six years ago when Colin didn't have a huge production career yet. So this established band taking a big risk and wanting to go in new directions, and we talked about how, yeah, that's cool. That's part of their success and part of why it's worked is that they've been open to other people's feedback. Exactly. That doesn't always mean somebody else is going to be right. No,

Speaker 2 (01:40:02):

No, definitely.

Speaker 1 (01:40:03):

But they've always been open to giving the respect to the people they work with to give their ideas a chance at least, and it's served them very, very well.

Speaker 2 (01:40:14):

Yeah, that's actually exactly what I mean. So if I give a band respect, I can expect at least some respect back. And like you also said, a track record and experience really works in your advantage, right? Then again, I also know stories about producers that really point at records on the wall. If you're not agreeing with me, I did this, so I'm right, and I will never do that. I think that's horrible.

Speaker 1 (01:40:42):

I know rock stars who do that too.

Speaker 2 (01:40:44):

Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. But well,

(01:40:47):

In the end, actually, we're all not rock stars. We only pretend to be we're just working hard and trying to have a good time. But the third aspect also in gaining trust is trying to always be very continuous in making dates, planning, communicate on time, all these little things that a band feels are correct about you, so they know they can rely about you even though they're not musical. So if you say, okay, we start the session at 10 and you are here and it's all prepared, and they come in and you can give them a coffee, have a chat, and you start at 10 and they see, okay, it's rolling. That already is a big trust thing because then if in that session you would encounter a discussion about certain creative or any other part, you actually gain some trust in getting the right working situation already. Same with giving feedback. If you take a week for giving feedback and you said you were going to do it in one day, half of your feedback is already destroyed because maybe it's good feedback, but the bent is already annoyed that you didn't really say, you said one thing and you did the other. So it's really about keeping yourself to your words, being very consistent.

Speaker 1 (01:42:21):

It's funny, not funny, just interesting you say that because I think that there's this myth that production and music is super saturated. I mean, it's very competitive, but there's actually not that many people who actually get the real jobs. I mean, there's a ton of people who say they want it, but one of the reasons is because so many people are unreliable in music. So just being reliable,

Speaker 2 (01:42:53):

Reliable was the word that

Speaker 1 (01:42:54):

I was thinking for. Forget, forget your skills. Yeah, forget your skills. Just being reliable is already a huge advantage because that already puts you in 5% of people in music.

Speaker 2 (01:43:06):

Yeah, I totally agree. I actually couldn't find the word reliable when I was talking about, but that's exactly the word I was looking for. It's so important to be reliable, and that will actually reflect on the whole process musically. So you can be reliable on the time, on the dates that you make, but they then also know that you're reliable on the comments that you make, the suggestions that you do, and always be open for your own mistakes. I mean, we're all human and we're not any kind of supposedly, yeah, we're not any kind of God form. So we are creating music that is created in a certain time, in a certain moment, in a certain state of mind, and especially with production, there's so many details going on at the same time that I will also forget about things or maybe think, oh yeah, this part is now, sorry, I forgot about that. Just say sorry or apologize for something that was also your mistake. That also puts you in a kind of human context, so to say, because we're all human, we make mistakes and we all have different tastes. We're all have different days, we're all have different moods. But if you can just be open about it and not pretend anything else, then it will work out. Definitely.

Speaker 1 (01:44:32):

People forgive mistakes, especially if you're honest about it. What people don't forgive is when people try to cover up mistakes, blame it on somebody else or just try to snake their way around it.

Speaker 2 (01:44:47):

So just be honest. Yeah, people will totally forgive it and be honest. If something takes a bit longer or maybe isn't working out the way you hoped, better be honest than covering up or making up things and then not delivering. In the end, people will understand and will respect that, and that really builds trust definitely, because then on the other side, the people that you're working with also feel the space to also just be human and also dare to make mistakes in the studio. Lots of mistakes are made and they should feel safe. They should feel safe with you, and if you're a reliable person, they will.

Speaker 1 (01:45:31):

One of the things that musicians tend to hate the most is recording

Speaker 2 (01:45:36):

Because

Speaker 1 (01:45:36):

Of the pressure, because they're afraid of making mistakes and in front of other people, which is weird because on tour you can make mistakes in front of way more people,

Speaker 2 (01:45:49):

But there they drink more than in the studio

Speaker 1 (01:45:51):

Probably. Yeah, true, true. They drink more and no one can hear it anyways. Yeah, yeah. But I think that setting it up to where it's not a big deal if they make a mistake, having that sort of vibe is super important, which is interesting because back in the day, producers used to have more of a reputation for being tyrannical and not being cool with that kind of stuff, but I think that the music producer tyrant type, you can't act like that anymore. Managers too, managers used to have this reputation for being total tyrants, and I say unless you're managing, and by the way, I don't know the person who manages Guns n Roses, so I am just using the example of a massive ban. Unless you're managing something that's going to generate hundreds of millions of dollars or something, no one is going to accept a tyrant in music anymore.

Speaker 2 (01:46:51):

No, and that's also not how people want to work. No, and I don't believe in that. I mean, it might have worked in the past for some, but I do believe that that great things also come out of a positive situation and not like a kind of pressure, stressful, suppressed kind of situation. That's totally not the way I want to work, but also don't believe in a great outcome then, and people do make mistakes, but for me, there's a bit of a difference between a mistake and really not knowing what you're doing.

Speaker 1 (01:47:25):

Huge difference.

Speaker 2 (01:47:26):

Yeah. That's also one of the things why preparation is so important. If I know that we've had this whole pre-production demo rehearsal process, a mistake is just a little human thing, which might maybe be interesting at some point or lead to something interesting, but a mistake should never be, not knowing your parts should never be, ah, hey, was this happening? I don't really don't remember. Then of course I try to stay friendly, but then I'm also pretty strict about things that I say, okay, this is not the way I can work. I'm honest with you. We are trying to aim for a high level, but I demand a few things at least, and that is knowing your parts, and that is different thing than making a mistake in a riff or a band in a solo or whatever. So there are two things, and I do feel that you can demand some things from the band, but you have to give them time and the opportunity to prepare. I mean, some producers might also ask too much right away or expect things that are just not realistic from the start, and then it's a whole different thing. Of course.

Speaker 1 (01:48:48):

Well, I think the bands expect you to be demanding,

Speaker 2 (01:48:53):

Of course, but to a certain level, right? Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:48:55):

But yeah, I mean that's part of being a leader is setting the standards and enforcing the standards,

Speaker 2 (01:49:02):

But it still should be a realistic situation. So if you get a punk band in and you want them to play as dream theater, you can say lots of things, but those people will probably start laughing after a few hours and leave the studio. So that's also a matter of getting to know the band and the style, and that's why it's so important that you know what you're talking about. Yes, you should be demanding, but also it should fit the context. It should fit the style, it should fit the people that you're working with, and it should be realistic. Otherwise it's really contra productive.

Speaker 1 (01:49:41):

It's interesting you say realistic. I agree with you, but I know there's going to be some people listening who are going to wonder, well, how do you know what's realistic? Shouldn't you be pushing them to be better?

Speaker 2 (01:49:56):

So there is a margin in which you can push people to doing better if you haven't already done that in preparation, you can still do it a little bit in recording, but I rather build up towards recording and pushing people in the right direction from where I know once we start recording, we are actually in a realistic, secure, safe place. And of course we try to from that basis take some risk because it's good for the performance, for the sound, for the flow of the song. But if you don't do that preparation, don't do that pre-production rehearsal thing, and you don't know the people that are coming into the studio very well, you have to set your goals. I mean, if I see a drummer sound checking, I kind of already know how far I can push him or her, and it's maybe a feeling that you have to experience and to have or to learn, but it's a sense that you get from, okay, this guy has a certain limit in speed, has maybe a certain limit in loudness, has a certain limit in certain technical patterns.

(01:51:09):

So it's really about knowing the people that you work with and then be realistic about what you can demand, because yeah, there are people who are great in a certain sound, in a certain attitude, but are not the most technical players. If you would really start pushing them to and being more technical, especially when doing that on the spot while recording, first of all, you're too late. It's not going to happen in the way that day you want it. You're going to build a lot of frustration, but you're also not going to get what you want because you have the wrong person in front of you. So it's very important to know the process you're in, to know the people you're working with, and then set the goals together, and if you agree, we are aiming for a blast beat on 200, then you agreed on it, and the drummer should have prepared and you can push him or her to this tempo if it's really not there, you can look into other options how to achieve it, but if normally this drummer has a maximum of 150 and never place double bass, you can't just say faster and more.

(01:52:18):

So there is a margin to that definitely, and yeah, you should

Speaker 1 (01:52:21):

Mind over matter,

Speaker 2 (01:52:23):

Mind over matter, but it's more about inspiring and motivating people during recording than demanding a lot of things on that side. I was

Speaker 1 (01:52:31):

Kidding about the Mind Over Matter. I was just thinking a drummer who's never played double bass, suddenly having to play a Black Dahlia murder song or something.

Speaker 2 (01:52:41):

Of course, a ridiculous example, but you know what I mean, right?

Speaker 1 (01:52:44):

It's never going to happen.

Speaker 2 (01:52:46):

No, no, no.

Speaker 1 (01:52:47):

The studio is not the place to get better.

Speaker 2 (01:52:49):

Not per se, maybe in small percentages and over time, small percentages.

Speaker 1 (01:52:55):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:52:56):

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:52:56):

You should be aiming, I think to sound like the best possible version of yourself. Right,

Speaker 2 (01:53:04):

Exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:53:05):

But you can't sound like somebody you're not. I feel like it's the same thing as people trying to get sober in the studio or quit smoking in the studio. You should have done that six months ago so that when you get to the studio, you feel normal. If you wanted to develop blast beats and you never played them before, and that's something that's going to be incorporated on this record, well start a year in advance, not the day of.

Speaker 2 (01:53:32):

Exactly. I think that's where all things, it's the same if you want to run a marathon. You just don't start preparing in the first miles that you walk. It's really in the year before, exactly like you are describing, and then still when running that marathon, you have to demand a lot of things from yourself, but you know can do it, and maybe you can surprise yourself if you can even push yourself a bit more, but it won't be a matter of, am I going to make it or not? Right. Before you enter the studio, you should be sure about that.

Speaker 1 (01:54:10):

Yeah. It's just how well will I, how

Speaker 2 (01:54:12):

Do it. Yeah, and then you're there as a producer to keep an eye on that process, how well it's actually becoming and if there's still room to grow at that moment.

Speaker 1 (01:54:26):

Yeah, I think a realistic type of thing is you say you wanted the blast beat at two 20, the guy comes in and he's got it really great at two 13, you could probably push him to two 20 with the right kind of coaching and warming up and caffeine. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (01:54:44):

Exactly. And there are always some tips and tricks that you can use and give and well, the hardest thing is focals in that matter. I mean, with instrumentalists, especially in metal, you can do lots of whatever to make it faster and better and louder, stronger. With vocals, it's a bit of a different thing. Of course, you can coach, but it's so much more personal, so much more the instrument, which is invisible within their body. That is even a more difficult thing to push and demand on the spots. I mean that most of the time results in very boring or wrong takes or a pushed sound or whatever.

Speaker 1 (01:55:29):

Man, I've had vocalists come into the studio and decide that day that they're going to start doing the Melissa Cross DVD, and then totally just blow their voice out. That's not the time to do it.

Speaker 2 (01:55:44):

No, not at all. Not at all.

Speaker 1 (01:55:46):

Well, I think this is a good place to end the episode. I want to thank you for taking the time to hang out and chat. It's been a pleasure.

Speaker 2 (01:55:54):

You're very welcome. My pleasure.

Speaker 1 (01:55:56):

Okay, then another URM podcast episode in the bag. Please remember to share our episodes with your friends, as well as post them to your Facebook, Instagram, or any social media you use. Please tag me at al Levy URM audio, and of course, please tag my guests as well. Till next time, happy mixing. You've been listening to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast. To ask us questions, make suggestions and interact, visit URM Academy and press the podcast link today.