Joe Lambert: His failed record deal, the art of mastering, and taking a step back to get ahead

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast. And now your host, Eyal Levi. Welcome to the URM Podcast. Thank you so much for being here. It's crazy to think that we're now on our fifth year, but it's true, and it's only because of you, the listeners. And if you'd like to see us stick around for another five years, there are a few simple things that you can do that would really, really help us out, and I would be endlessly appreciative. Number one, share our episodes with your friends. If you get something out of these episodes, I'm sure they will too. So please share us with your friends. Number two, post our episodes on your Facebook and Instagram and tag me and our guests too. My Instagram is at al Levi urm audio. And let me just let you know that we love seeing ourselves tagged in these posts.

(00:00:55):

Who knows, we might even respond. And number three, leave us reviews and five stars please anywhere you can. We especially love iTunes reviews. Once again, I want to thank you all for the years and years of loyalty. I just want you to know that we will never, ever charge you for this podcast, and I will always work as hard as possible to improve the episodes in every single way possible. All I ask in return is a share post and a tag. Now let's get on with it. Hello everybody. Welcome to the URM Podcast. My guest today is mastering engineer Joe Lambert, who's known for his work with artists such as city and color, the Black Crows, real Big Fish, all the way to soundtracks such as Sweeney, Todd, the Terminator, and many, many more. I introduce you, Joe Lambert. Joe Lambert, welcome to the URM Podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:01:44):

It's my pleasure. I'm really psyched to be here, honestly.

Speaker 1 (00:01:47):

Yeah, really glad to have you here. I'm glad we finally lined it up. I know that we tried to do this a few years ago, but here we are and happy to have you. How are things going with you? Things with me are going great. I had COVID a few months ago and it took two months to recover. Wow. But I'm recovered now, so I'm back to full productivity, back to working out like three hours a day back to everything and catching up on a mountain of work. But that aside, 2020 was probably my best year yet and trying to continue that into 2021. So me personally, I'm doing great, and I don't feel like having had COVID was anything more than a road bump. How are you?

Speaker 2 (00:02:34):

I'm good, thank you. I have not had COVID yet, and hopefully that'll continue.

Speaker 1 (00:02:42):

I hope so.

Speaker 2 (00:02:42):

Like everybody else, it's been a crazy year. At first, we just didn't know how serious things were. Your brain starts to go in all these places. Luckily for myself, my girlfriend, the people closest to us, we've been very fortunate. I certainly know some people who've had it, and some of my clients have had it and some have passed away. So I've definitely felt some of it. I've been very lucky. One of the things about being an engineer and having my own studio, like most of us yourself, I'm sure included, we work in an isolation to some degree already. And for me as a mastering engineer, even though I would do a lot of attendance, the attendance slowed down, but my workload didn't slow down. If anything, I was really busy because like you said, a lot of people are way, they weren't working on their day job, so they had time to record songs, write songs, produce songs that they wanted to get to that they just never had the time.

Speaker 1 (00:03:58):

So I find it interesting that you actually do a lot of attendance. That's actually kind of rare with mastering engineers in my experience, and from the guys I've talked to most don't like to do that. What do you like about it?

Speaker 2 (00:04:12):

I think one of the main things that I like about it at this point in time is there's a lot of artists who are doing things that they didn't have to do in the past. So for example, and the seventies, eighties, you made a record. You didn't necessarily know much about the mastering process or anything about the mastering process, but your record label took care of that for you. And when I say took care of it for you, they scheduled it, they did it or sent it to whomever was going to do it, but maybe most importantly is they paid for it. And I don't mean just upfront. Mastering was one of the few things for an artist that was not recoupable. So when you're making your record and the record label spending 20 grand to record you, you're ultimately going to pay that 20 grand back before you see a dime, which the mastering was never part of that. So if you spent three or five grand mastering your record, the band never had to pay for that. So they were more than happy to. Yeah, let's whatever. Let's call it the greatest guy in the world and spend however much time and money it takes. Do

Speaker 1 (00:05:24):

You know why that is? Because I remember that from record deals and I always thought it was odd, but maybe it has something to do with the manufacturing process and the fact that it's so linked to that and maybe they just don't want the artists involved.

Speaker 2 (00:05:40):

Yeah, I honestly don't remember why I did ask some people. I got an answer. This is 15 years ago or so. But yeah, so there's that aspect. But now as you know, so many artists, it's almost the opposite. And what I mean by that is so many artists, even those who have record deals, they're just expected to hand in the final master of their project and not just hand it in, but in many cases they're expected to pay for it themselves. So I think it's in my best interest as an engineer for people who are making their first couple of records, either as a producer or as an artist or whatever, their involvement, it's in my best interest and I think their best interest for them to be in here once or twice, see what the process is about, hear their project, go from mix to master, have an appreciation for what we can do, what maybe we can't do. So that's a main reason why, and I think personally, it's different for different people. There are a lot of engineers who they're not comfortable with being in a room with other people and working in such a way, and I don't judge that at all. I think you have to know what you are good at, what maybe you're not comfortable at, and I've always been comfortable with in that social aspect of it.

Speaker 1 (00:07:05):

Just to your point about things being different, I just got a memory of 2006 and being on a roadrunner and them paying Ted Jensen to master my band's album, and I wanted to go to the session because I produced the album. I didn't mix it. The idea of me going to the mastering session was crazy to them. They ended up flying me there and I attended. But Ted was saying that that was a super rare thing, and the label were saying that they've never flown an artist out for an attended mastering session ever. I mean, maybe that's changed now. That was 15 years ago, but to your point, I experienced that they didn't consider the artists a part of it and almost felt like they didn't want the artists to be a part of it. So it's definitely a whole different world now. And to your point about being comfortable around other people, I think that a lot of engineers are pretty introverted, and it seems like a lot of people who started as producers and then eventually moved to mixing only or mastering only in part sometimes not always in part, sometimes they're doing that because they get to do what they love, which is audio, but they don't have to necessarily be in the same room as other people.

Speaker 2 (00:08:29):

And

Speaker 1 (00:08:29):

So it's kind of the best of both worlds. They don't like the aspect of being around other people. So it's interesting to me that you went into mastering, but you enjoy being around other people. You don't usually hear that I'm a weird guy. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:08:41):

I think

Speaker 1 (00:08:42):

You don't usually hear that.

Speaker 2 (00:08:45):

I don't know if it's just mastering engineers though, like you said, I think there's plenty of mixed engineers who would prefer to mix in their house. Like Mick Kowski, he's been mixing out of his home for a long time, but he's an extremely well established engineer too. So it also depends where you're at in your career. If you're just starting off, you have to do everything you can to meet people, to get clients. So I think it's in your best interest. I think it's more difficult now to get into these fields and be successful if you're not willing to shake hands, so to speak with people. It's not like before where you went and got a job at such and such a studio and they're like, Hey, here's all this work we have here. Here's all this work we have for you to do. You have to really work hard to cultivate a client base in almost all these situations. Now,

Speaker 1 (00:09:53):

I know that nepotism is a bad word in our modern society. It's something that gets thrown around as a bad thing, but in my experience in the music industry, whether we like it or not, that's pretty much how things work. People hire people that they, they work with their friends, and the more friends you have, the easier it's going to be. If you're not networked in to the circles you want to be in, it's going to be very unlikely that you get hired unless somehow they know that you can make them a lot of money and they hear about that,

Speaker 2 (00:10:32):

Right? Yeah. I think it's not even the audio business that's just life. It's a human quality. All throughout the history of mankind, we are drawn towards people who are like us. We like to be around people who think like us, look like us, pray like us, whatever it is. That's just part of who we are.

Speaker 1 (00:10:54):

For better or for worse.

Speaker 2 (00:10:56):

Yes, exactly.

Speaker 1 (00:10:57):

For

Speaker 2 (00:10:57):

Both. Yes. Yeah, sure.

Speaker 1 (00:11:00):

Well, I think about it with audio for instance, or the music industry, and there's a lot of people that are full of shit in music and people who are not. If I know that someone is not full of shit, actually really good at what they do, and B, really cool, we have a great relationship, why would I not favor them over someone I've never met, never worked with, right. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:11:26):

That's true. I tell people the kind of people that I like to work with are people that I like being around because a question I get a lot is what kind of clients do you like or what kind of records do you like to work on or prefer? I'm fortunate enough that over time I developed a client base set and it's pretty diverse in styles, and after a certain point you get to what you're saying, which is you just want to be around cool people and you want to be in a room. If you're going to spend time with these people, you want to be able to enjoy it. And I really don't care anymore if it's a hip hop artist or a gospel artist or a heavy metal artist. It's really just about is the music good? Are the people enjoyable to be around?

Speaker 1 (00:12:20):

Yeah, I think that that enjoyable to be around aspect is a lot more important than people realize. And I think that because of a lot of press, the way the press used to be about the music industry with these weird myths kind of emerge in the days of behind the music and magazines where they made artists seem like complete and total utter maniacs. I think that that gave people the idea that they can act completely unprofessionally and be maniacs and be impossible to be around, and that it's okay that it's tolerated. That's actually part of the gig,

Speaker 2 (00:12:59):

Right?

Speaker 1 (00:13:00):

They're supposed to do that. They're supposed to do that. You can't be great without also being a case. And I think that that was a media invention, which is debatable, but what's not debatable is that that stuff is not very tolerated now, and people like to work around people who they like to be around and who get the job done, basically The end, I think. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:13:25):

Well, I loved those behind the music show. Oh,

Speaker 1 (00:13:28):

They were fun.

Speaker 2 (00:13:28):

Was was that VH one?

Speaker 1 (00:13:30):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:13:31):

I love all those kind of shows, but yeah, it's a much better story if you can talk about so-and-so doing Blow off some Girl's Back, that's a much more interesting story than talking about Yeah, we all came in and we had pizza and then we worked really hard. Even though that's what we ultimately want to do for television's sake, it's not as great a story.

Speaker 1 (00:13:52):

Well, yeah, I think television can't actually show the mundane reality of making records.

Speaker 2 (00:14:00):

No, nobody's going to tune into that.

Speaker 1 (00:14:02):

No,

Speaker 2 (00:14:02):

I mean you and I would watch it, but

Speaker 1 (00:14:04):

Maybe I've tried watching when bands have done in the studio just live streaming the studio process, not like a course or something, not a presentation, but just streaming the sessions and it's boring as hell.

Speaker 2 (00:14:22):

Oh, that's brutal. I can't watch that. No, the last thing I watched that was the Making of Pink Floyd's. Wish You Were Here, which was edited and it was an amazing documentary, but if they just had a camera rolling while David Gilmore was tuning his guitar or choosing an exam, even me, a total guitar nerd, after five minutes I'd be like, okay, whatever.

Speaker 1 (00:14:49):

Yeah, exactly. Speaking of guitar, I know that you started wanting to play guitar. How did it go from starting as a musician all the way to mastering?

Speaker 2 (00:14:59):

Okay. Well, when I was in about ninth or 10th grade is when I really decided I wanted to be a rock star because I loved music and I loved sports, but in around 10th grade, I realized my five eight frame was not going to take me to a career in any sports, but I knew I could play guitar and still be short and not incredibly athletic. So it's funny because it's actually something that happened One day I was at basketball practice and it was the first day of my sophomore practice and I was a sophomore, and when I was a freshman, I played a lot, but there were guys who were bigger than me and they were better than me. So I figured, okay, I'm a sophomore now. This is my team. And literally the first day all the freshmen came in and they were all bigger and better than me.

(00:15:53):

I was like, what the hell? And I literally went home and talked with my uncle and he's like, well, look at you man. Look around. You come from an Italian family. You're five eight, you're already the tallest guy here. You think you're going to be a basketball player. And so I got hit in the face with reality. I'm like, oh yeah, I guess you're right. I'm not going to be Dr. J or Michael Jordan. So I really like then started to concentrate on playing guitar and it's all I ever wanted to do, and I took it serious. I took it, frankly, I took it too serious. What's the definition of too serious? Well, I, so I wanted to be a successful musician so bad that I just was so hard on everyone else in the band. Here we are 13, 14 years old, and if somebody's laid, so you were the tyrant. Someone doesn't

Speaker 1 (00:16:55):

I was the tyrant. Me too. Exactly. Be too. So from one tyrant to another, I feel like all that was in those years was our drive outpacing other people's drive. So we wanted to be successful, and other people didn't quite want it as much as we did, and we probably weren't mature enough to know how to deal with it. So it'd be assholes.

Speaker 2 (00:17:17):

Exactly. I was a kid and I was not aware of myself being an asshole about it to my best friends. And I came from a really small town, so it's not like I grew up in New York City and there was a hundred great guitar player, bass player, whatever you name it that to choose from. There's only a handful of people I could even play with, so I had to keep them in line, so to speak. And yeah, it was hard. And the funny thing is, the guys that I played with when I was in high school, we're still really good friends and we still get together every once in a while and play and we will do some shows. And it's so incredible now because we're not trying to be famous and we get in that room to practice for a show. Everything else goes out the window. It doesn't matter who's making a hundred dollars an hour or who's making $10 an hour. We all just kind of fall right back into that role that we were, that attitude of just play and we're busting each other's chops. It's really super fun, not trying for myself anyway, not trying to get the record deal, just trying to be like, let's just be in the room. Let's just make as much noise as we can and have as much fun as we can.

Speaker 1 (00:18:45):

But when you were in high school, different story

Speaker 2 (00:18:50):

In high school, I was just trying to be the next Eddie Van Halen.

Speaker 1 (00:18:53):

How long did it take before you realized maybe that's not happening?

Speaker 2 (00:18:57):

Well, during high school, during college, we're still playing in the band. We're still rehearsing three or four nights a week. And then after college, some guys leave because they go to different schools, different jobs, different colleges, put a new band together. And then I joined this other band that was really a well established band in western New York. And so now I'm in my 20 ish, 20 to 21 years old, and we're touring the Northeast playing, and I was really into it then that kind of dissipates. And now I'm 22, and I'm just frustrated because I come to a point where I've realized I can work as hard as I want, but as the guitar player, I'm not a great singer. I just felt like I was only a cog. I felt like my life and my career wasn't just mine. It was in the hands of the other people in the band.

Speaker 1 (00:20:01):

That's accurate.

Speaker 2 (00:20:03):

And I had to rely on these people who are generally not reliable people by nature. And I love them and don't get me wrong, but there was just a day or a week or something where I just felt like I need to take more control of my life. I'm just getting frustrated playing in a band for 18 months, somebody quits. And so the straw, I guess was we were offered a record deal. They offered for us to move to New York, they're going to put us up and have us make a record. And I literally got the phone call from the other guy, the other guitar player in the band. He told me about this. It was a while ago, I think it was, I want to say it was MCA records, but I honestly don't remember. And so I literally laid down on my bed and I thought, well, this is the dream.

(00:20:55):

It's all going to happen. So I called Keith who was our singer, and he didn't say anything. And I was like, did you hear what I just said? They're going to pay to move us everything. This is it. This is all going to happen. And he's like, yeah, my girlfriend's pregnant and I can't do it. And so I spent the next half hour trying to talk him down, so to speak, and say, look, we can still do this. And at the end of the conversation, he's like, he wasn't going to do it, wasn't going to move. So I laid back down on the bed and I was like, what the hell? What do I have to do? And we tried to find another singer. He was a great Sebastian Bach type of singer, just this great hard rock singer, looked like a rock star, sang. He was fantastic. And there's not a lot of those guys. So it falls apart. And I am working again, and I'm just like, what can I do? And I was running this audio store. So

Speaker 1 (00:22:00):

Wait, you were right though about your instinct that

Speaker 2 (00:22:05):

Of course I was

Speaker 1 (00:22:05):

Right. Everything that your future relied on was in the hands of those other people. Yeah, you are right.

Speaker 2 (00:22:15):

I said, I didn't know what to do. I knew I wanted to make a living, so to speak, making music at that point. And I thought about schools. Is there a school I could go to that again, I'd already been to college, so was there a program I could go to or what could I do? Just honestly, I didn't have any clue where I could go. Again, I'm up in Western New York, there's really no music scene, very small music scene. And I meet someone the next day who's going to an audio program in Canada. There's a college, a two year program up there, and I'm like, oh, I never even knew this existed. And I said, well, is that the best place to go? He said, well, it's not full sail, but it's a good program. And I said, well, what's Full sail? And look up Full sail.

(00:23:11):

Literally, he leaves the store. I grab a Rolling Stone magazine and there's an ad for Full Sail in the back. I called the number right then and there. They talked to me on the phone, tell me about it. They get me all excited. I set up a time to fly down there and I go check out the school and I'm blown away. And granted, just so you know, I have really very little to no engineering skills at this point. I was a guitar player. I never made some four tracks, but I was never honestly interested in that end. I just wanted to play and make, write and create the music, so to speak. So I get down there, I'm blown away by the Neve console, the SSL, all the stuff, and I'm just like, wow, this is a world that I could see myself in. And the plan lanes, I go back to work, I call my boss, I said, I'll give you a two months notice. I was managing this audio store, and he's like, you're not going to go to the school. I'm like, no, I'm going to the school. This is what I want to do. And that was just it. I decided to go to Full Sail. I went there.

Speaker 1 (00:24:22):

What year was this?

Speaker 2 (00:24:23):

I want to say it was 94, 95 around there.

Speaker 1 (00:24:27):

So Full Sail wasn't what we know it as now.

Speaker 2 (00:24:29):

Oh, no, no. I actually went down there to do a talk a year or two ago, and it's crazy. It's a whole, it's like, yeah, it's like Disney World now. I mean, it's expanded. It's huge and it's incredible what they've done. But even back then, any kind of studio was incredible to me, and I just needed to learn the language, so to speak, and just start to think that way as an engineer. And the school was very helpful to me. It gave me the confidence to move to New York City. If anything else, it gave me the confidence to come to New York and just start really learning, so to speak. So when I'm at Full Sail, my long-term goal is I want to be a record producer. I'm thinking, well, I'm always the guy putting the practices together, picking the songs. I'm kind of like the manager already.

(00:25:23):

So I think it'll be good for me to be helpful to another band who I can help them do all these things. And I knew there was obviously a lot that I needed to learn. I didn't expect to just move to New York and have Soundgarden call me and say, yeah, we want Joel Lambert to produce our next record. But I got an idea for it. But also while I'm there, there was this other day, one of these moments where I think the engineer's name was Gary Jones, and he worked at Full Sail where he was a part of Full Sail and he had mixed this Prince song. So we're in the Neve room, puts the mix up on the Neve. It sounds really good. And everyone's like, oh man, it sounds amazing. And I am like, I got to be honest. It sounds really good, don't get me wrong, but it doesn't sound magical.

(00:26:16):

I'm like, it doesn't sound like when I go home and I put on the new Alison Chains record, I'm like, it sounds like it's unimaginable how good it sounds to me. My imagination goes crazy. It sounds so incredible. And he's like, well, it hasn't been mastered yet. And I don't think anyone in the room had ever heard the word mastering before or the phrase. I'm like, well, what is that? And he explains to us what the process is and fine tuning things. And right then and there, I'm like, oh, that sounds really cool. But again, I didn't think, okay, now I'm going to be a mastering engineer. I still came to New York thinking I would be a engineer slash producer. And so I get my first gig, first or second gig in New York at this place called Ground Zero Studio. And Ground Zero Studio was owned by Ray Mackenzie who had a record label called Zero Hour Records and this new indie label that it was cool because at this time, this is the time where indie labels start becoming known and a real viable alternative to a major label deal. You can get on the radio, you could sell product, REM has already happened. You can make it as an artist or a record label for that matter, without the big label. So he had a small studio. I went in just as a runner. I worked myself up to an assistant and then to the house engineer, and I started dabbling in the mastering. As this is a couple years, I just kind of started learning what it is, and it's kind just like in the back of my mind.

Speaker 1 (00:27:57):

Was it a direction you were consciously going in?

Speaker 2 (00:28:00):

Not yet. I'm still thinking I just want to produce records.

Speaker 1 (00:28:03):

Okay, got it.

Speaker 2 (00:28:04):

The good thing is I'm doing a little bit of everything. People are coming in and I'm recording vocals, I'm doing mixes, I'm doing live sound. We've got bands that are playing out at the clubs or playing in New York a couple times a week.

Speaker 1 (00:28:16):

What did you do to get from runner to intern to engineer? How did you get them to actually give you responsibilities in the first place?

Speaker 2 (00:28:25):

It's just being around over time and being helpful people. If you just stay long enough and you're helpful and you learn, you will get an opportunity. Jack Wall was an engineer. He was like, he used the studio a lot. I don't know. I would say he was the head engineer, but he was the important engineer that actually used the studio. And Jack's now in Hollywood, and he does all this music for these video games. I can't remember all the video games. I'm not into it, but he's really big in that. And he was great to me. He was just this nice guy. He was a really good engineer who he would let me assist him, and he helped me along. So he's one of these people who helps me gain a couple steps forward, so to speak. In my development. He moves on to bigger and better things. I start getting more opportunities. It happened very naturally.

Speaker 1 (00:29:26):

Yeah, I think that that's something that people coming into the game have a hard time with is the organic side of career development. It's very hard to skip steps, and you had to be ready for years to go by, in my opinion.

Speaker 2 (00:29:45):

Yeah, I think that's true. And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it came easy to me because I was already in my mid twenties by the time I moved to New York, and I was impatient for sure. I was very eager to let everyone know how good I was, so to speak. Definitely in hindsight, I can see that I was a little too cocky probably at times. You're just trying so hard to let people, you just want to be successful and you're like, I can do it. I can do it. I'm sure that I did that to some degree.

(00:30:28):

So as I'm there, somehow people just start asking me to check out their mixes. People start asking me just how things sound, and it's kind of weird. People start trusting me over a certain amount of time has gone by now. And so I don't know how to, I'm trying to think of how to word this. I start earning people's trust as time goes on, I start helping, not just mixing for people, but helping them get their mixes to sound better. Just little things along the course of different projects, even though I'm not really the producer on the project. And then my boss and I, after a certain amount of time, he asks me if I wanted to master some of his records. And my first answer is, as someone who's young and trying to make a career is yes, of course. Yeah, I want to do it and I'll figure out how to do it later. But that was the thing, I didn't really have any mastering experience whatsoever.

Speaker 1 (00:31:37):

So why'd he ask you?

Speaker 2 (00:31:38):

I think it was just a question of an indie label wanted to just keep things in house and save money. And I would tell him, look, of course I've loved to do this, but I've never mastered a project before. I've not really sure what to do. And to his credit, he was just like, well make a list of things that you think you need. And so I did. I just said, I need this focus, right? I need these cues. I need this stuff. And I was really fortunate he went out and got it for me, and I installed it in the studio, and I kind of taught myself really sure did I make a lot of mistakes? Of course, I made a lot of mistakes. And do those records sound as good as the records? I do now. I don't think so, but it was a great opportunity for me. And then, so now a couple more years have gone by where I'm kind of doing everything again for the label. I'm doing some mixing.

Speaker 1 (00:32:33):

Wait, so you just gave the dude a gear list and he just got it for you?

Speaker 2 (00:32:37):

Yes, it's a true story.

Speaker 1 (00:32:39):

Wow.

Speaker 2 (00:32:40):

It's a true story. Yeah, he was very good to me. So that's another one of the things that I'm doing for the label and him, so to speak. And a couple more years go by and he gets an influx of money from, again, I think it was either RCA or MCA was interested in taking zero hour under their wing. And so he's got this influx of cash and he's going to build a studio down in soho, and he comes into the studio and he says, I'm going to build this fantastic studio in soho. I'm going to have a mastering room and I'm going to have a mixed room. He said, you've been with me almost from day one, so I'm giving you the option. You could be the guy, whatever you want to call it that runs that room. So let me know if you want to be the mixed engineer guy or if you want to be the mastering engineer guy.

(00:33:38):

So I said, okay. I said, can I go home and think about it? He's like, yeah, sure. Just lemme know by the end of the week. So I'm at a point where I just literally, I have to make this decision and out throughout the experience of the years before I think of all the things that I liked about engineering, and I also think about the things I don't like. And I thought mastering is really something that I just think fits my personality better. And I felt, or at least I thought at that time I could be successful doing either one or also I could fail at either one, but I just made that decision. I think this is the right thing for me and how I like to work. So that was just a decision I made. I said, I want to be the mastering engineer. And that was, I don't know, 96, 97. And it's just literally been, and again, I knew I still needed a lot to learn and a lot of things have happened since then. But basically that was my crossroads, so to speak, in my career where I had to make a decision. It's a

Speaker 1 (00:34:47):

Good decision.

Speaker 2 (00:34:48):

Yeah. Thank you. I hope so.

Speaker 1 (00:34:49):

Yeah, it seems like you chose wisely. I'd say that back then there was a pretty steep barrier to entry in terms of gear needed, which is why he went out and bought that stuff. It's not like you could have just got in a suite of plugins. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:35:04):

Exactly.

Speaker 1 (00:35:05):

And got into work. That steep barrier to entry existed, which is very different than how things are now. What's your take on gear needed to be successful, and how do you go about determining fact from fiction in terms of gear, in terms of what's needed and what actually matters?

Speaker 2 (00:35:27):

It's a really interesting time for young artists because gear is relatively inexpensive. It's a lot easier to get gear, but also I think there's a pressure on young artists to be able to do everything. A lot of these magazines, their goal is to sell you product. So they tell you, buy this plug and buy this eq, buy this, whatever it is, and you can do it yourself. And so if I was 16, I would probably feel a lot of pressure that, oh, I have to be able to do this myself or I'm not good. So it's tough because I think there's certain people who are better off if they don't worry about the gear aspect, worry about being able to do everything, so to speak. And then there's other people who can make the investment in the gear, write songs, record songs. I think it's tough.

(00:36:33):

I think, again, if it was me, I know that I wouldn't be interested in trying to have all this gear. I would still just have some basic recording stuff, and I would really just want to work on my craft, be it playing an instrument or singing or writing songs. And then I'd want to work with other people who put as much time into the engineering as I put into those things. And so I think that's tough because I kid people, I can't imagine Bob Dylan sitting around for four or five hours trying to get his MIDI to work. There's a gift in a way that they didn't have to worry or think about all that stuff. They just sat around. I'm maybe projecting a little bit here, but I picture these heroes of ours writing songs all day and working on their craft all day and not just worried about if the piece of gear, how it sounds. I don't think they've worried about that stuff nearly as much. And in most cases, I think that's a good thing. Now, again, there's people who can do it all and they can buy all the gear, and that's great too. But I think you have to figure out what you are good at, what you want to do and not feel bad if you don't do eight different skills. If you concentrate on one or two and that's what you like and you're good at, that's enough.

Speaker 1 (00:38:02):

So you think there's a benefit in keeping your mastery to a few select things?

Speaker 2 (00:38:08):

I think it's, for me, and again, it's different for everyone. I think the challenge is to find out what you as a person or an artist really want to do and what you're really drawn to. If you want to make it as a singer songwriter, then that should be what you spend your time doing. Why spend five hours a day looking at gear, buying gear and all that? It's just a waste of your energy. If you want to be an engineer, great, but you can really go, you can get misdirected easily. I think if you're trying to do everything.

Speaker 1 (00:38:43):

I think you're right. And I think that the part about knowing yourself and knowing what it is you actually want is the hardest part. Because I think that lots of times people will do things that they think they need. They just have to do it. So with the engineering thing, say they really just want to be a musician, but they're learning engineering. It's because somewhere along the line someone told them or they read or they invented that they had to do that too. There's a lot of things like that. Some of the best musicians I know, for instance, a guitar player I used to play with who's one of the best in the world. When the Home Studio Revolution started happening in mid two thousands, which is around when I started recording, well, I started recording in 2000. But anyways, he specifically said that he wasn't going to buy himself an inbox or anything like that.

(00:39:42):

Nothing. He was not going to go down that rabbit hole because if he did, he'd have to be taking time away from guitar. And he wanted to be the best possible guitar player. That was his thing. He didn't want to be 90% of his potential and 10% of an engineer. That just wasn't going to happen. And I think for him, that was wise. Now, there are other people though, who don't have the capability of being that good of a guitar player. No matter how hard they practice, they'll never be close to that. Maybe it does behoove them to get some other skills, but yet to be honest with yourself,

Speaker 2 (00:40:21):

And you have to find out what it is that you is special for you. If it's a guitar, if it's engineering, or you have to be honest and say, Hey, I'm not the greatest singer, but I'm really good at this and this, and put your energy there.

Speaker 1 (00:40:38):

Well, I knew that no matter how hard I worked, I could never be that level of guitar player.

Speaker 2 (00:40:44):

So you can't drop a bomb on me, one of the best guitar players in the world to not tell me this person's name. Do I know this person?

Speaker 1 (00:40:50):

Probably not.

Speaker 2 (00:40:51):

Well, if he's that good, I want to know him.

Speaker 1 (00:40:53):

His name's Worler.

Speaker 2 (00:40:55):

Okay,

Speaker 1 (00:40:55):

Yeah. Yeah, he's phenomenal. But no, I knew that no matter what I did, I couldn't reach that level, like the Virtuoso Olympic athlete level, so I could practice 12 hours a day and it won't happen. I think that there's a certain physical predisposition for it, kind of like you were talking about with sports. You have that or you don't, and there's no amount of work that that can change it. And so it was important for me to recognize that and add other skills to my repertoire because the end goal was to have a successful music career. It wasn't actually to be best guitar player in the world. That was really, really good. And it was really good because here I am, I feel like had I not recognized that, who the hell knows where I'd be if I decided I was still going to keep on trying to be the best guitar player in the world and just not take on other skills, not go down other paths, who knows? It maybe would've gone badly.

Speaker 2 (00:41:59):

Yeah, self-awareness is underrated.

Speaker 1 (00:42:02):

Have you always had it or is it something that came to you gradually?

Speaker 2 (00:42:07):

It's come to me gradually, for

Speaker 1 (00:42:09):

Sure.

Speaker 2 (00:42:10):

Yeah, there was definitely a time when I was younger where I just thought I knew it all and could do it all. And one of the wonderful things about moving to New York and coming from this little town, and then you get to New York City and you realize, well, yeah, maybe I'm not all I think, and it's a good thing because New York or LA or these types of places, they're humbling. I know so many incredible musicians, it didn't take long either. Some of my first sessions just walking in and hearing people play or sing, and I was just like, oh, these,

Speaker 1 (00:43:00):

That's what's out there.

Speaker 2 (00:43:01):

This people are working at a different level. I've never heard someone sing just come in. One of my first sessions, I wish I could remember this woman's name, but she just came in and the producer was Rex Rideout, and I was assisting him, and she just came in and sang this song. Honestly, I think it was one take, and I was just like, holy cow. And then she was finished and she's like, you want me to do it again? And I'm like, Rex. And I just looked at each other. I'm like, well, yeah, just for fun, but you can't do it any better than that. And just working at a jingle house and seeing people will Lee come in and these guys, they have no idea what they're even going to do. They just get thrown some sheet music and yeah, we want this. And then they play it and it's already a nine out of 10 the first time they do it, and then they say, make it a little more this or that, and then they do it and it's like nothing.

(00:43:56):

So it instilled some humility in me, which I think I was good for me, but it also, it kind of smacks you around. If you really want to do this, you're not just going to be able to talk your way through this. You're going to have to really put in the time, get better, work with people who know a lot more than you do. And so that became something I loved at first. I was afraid to kind of be found out like, oh, I don't know everything. When I was young, I wanted to be good, and I didn't want to embarrass myself, so I was kind of afraid to be around people who were really exceptional at what they did. But then when you are around them, your majority of these people are very helpful. The better you are at something, generally the more humble you are and more helpful you can often be. And being around certain engineers and musicians in the first couple of years being here was so helpful to me because it just got my brain on track. Like, okay, keep my mouth shut. Listen, work hard. Don't worry about impressing everybody.

Speaker 1 (00:45:13):

It's interesting when the first time that you realize what's out there in terms of people's level, some people will have that reaction of, holy shit, there's some bad asses out here. I don't belong here. And then quit. Some people will say I'm better than them and not really ever advance because they don't have awareness. And then some people say, holy shit, these people are awesome. I should shut up and listen. Figure out what water they're drinking and get some,

Speaker 2 (00:45:50):

Yeah, it is funny just being around certain people that are, there's charisma, people who are charismatic. You don't like to be around or talent, all these things. Just it can be really helpful to learning, for lack of a better way to put it. What do you mean? Well, another analogy is like food. When I moved to New York, there's all these different kinds of foods that I hadn't experienced in my childhood, and you can look at it one or two ways. You could be afraid to try it, you haven't had it before. Or you could be like, lemme try that, and maybe I don't like it the first time, but lemme try it again. And then your palate expands and now the things that you didn't have until you were 20 or 18 is now your favorite kind of food. So it's just a whole way of how you look at it. Do you want to add to your palette or do you want to say, no, this is who I am and that's okay, and I don't want to add anything

Speaker 1 (00:46:48):

New? Hey, everybody, if you're enjoying this podcast, then you should know that it's brought to you by URM Academy, URM Academy's mission is to create the next generation of audio professionals by giving them the inspiration and information to hone their craft and build a career doing what they love. You've probably heard me talk about Nail the Mix before, and if you're a member, you already know how amazing it is. The beginning of the month, nail the mix members, get the raw multi-tracks to a new song by artists like Lama, God Angels and Airwaves. Knock loose OPEC shuga, bring me the Horizon. Gaira asking Alexandria Machine Head and Papa Roach among many, many others over 60 at this point. Then at the end of the month, the producer who mixed it comes on and does a live streaming walkthrough of exactly how they mix the song on the album and takes your questions live on air.

(00:47:41):

And these are guys like TLA Will Putney, Jenz Borin, Dan Lancaster, to a Matson, Andrew Wade, and many, many more. You'll also get access to Mix Lab, which is our collection of dozens of bite-sized mixing tutorials that cover all the basics as well as Portfolio Builder, which is a library of pro quality multi-tracks cleared for use in your portfolio. So your career will never again be held back by the quality of your source material. And for those of you who really want to step up their game, we have another membership tier called URM Enhance, which includes everything I already told you about, and access to our massive library of fast tracks, which are deep, super detailed courses on intermediate and advanced topics like gain, staging, mastering, low end and so forth. It's over 500 hours of content. And man, let me tell you, this stuff is just insanely detailed.

(00:48:35):

Enhanced members also get access to one-on-ones, which are basically office hour sessions with us and Mix Rescue, which is where we open up one of your mixes and fix it up and talk you through exactly what we're doing at every step. So if any of that sounds interesting to you, if you're ready to level up your mixing skills in your audio career, head over to URM Academy to find out more as far as taking in new things, I think that it's a necessary part of developing, expanding your palette. At the same time though, I think you can get yourself distracted. For instance, if you're a guitar player and you want to develop your own sound, or you want to get really, really good at this thing that you do, but instead of spending most of your time on that, you spend a 10th of your time on that and then divide up your time with a bunch of other things, like other genres of music stuff a guitar teacher gave you, et cetera, et cetera, yeah, you'll still improve of course, and you'll be a very well-rounded player if you do that, but at the same time, you might not excel at the one thing you really wanted to excel at.

(00:49:50):

And so I think at some point you need to choose where your focus is. Is your focus broad? Is your focus going to be specific to one thing or a couple of things? And the same way that at some point you decided you're going to focus on mastering, I think at some point you have to make a decision to focus on something, and that means saying no to other things. Definitely.

Speaker 2 (00:50:13):

There's only so much time in the day,

Speaker 1 (00:50:14):

That's it.

Speaker 2 (00:50:15):

So yeah, you do have to prioritize your time. And once I had made that decision for myself and said, okay, I'm going to put my head down. I'm going to focus on being a mastering engineer. That's my short and long-term goal. This is what I want to do for my career. I didn't have six hours to play guitar a day anymore. There's just only so much time and whatever else you do in your life, if you just got to say, okay, I'm going to spend the bulk of my day getting better at this specific skill. So it's either, it's the job, it's being, even when you're not at work, there's things you do outside of work to try to cultivate clients. It becomes your main focus, like you said. And it's, for me, it was certainly necessary. And I expect for most people, unless you're super, super fortunate, these things don't just fall into your lap years in the making just, it doesn't just happen overnight. You don't get a letter in the mail saying, okay, now you're at this level. Or if you work for a big company, it's not like all of a sudden you're going to get, okay, you've been here for two years now you move up to this level. It's just not how it works anymore. So it's a constant grind. It's a constant focus.

Speaker 1 (00:51:40):

When you decided that you're doing mastering, did you quit guitar?

Speaker 2 (00:51:44):

No, I didn't quit. It takes up a different space in my life now where when I was trying to be a professional musician, that was my day, was making music. When I made the decision to work in a different capacity, I played music in my quote, spare time. So now it's kind of like I meditate and I play guitar. They kind of go together. The guitar for me now is something that relaxes me. It gets me away from the studio, the mastering end of it, because even when you love something, you need to spend time away from it. So you can keep your energy high, keep your appreciation level high, or you're just going to burn out. So yeah, I still play as much as I can, and I still write music, and I have some people that I still play with if and when we can go back out and play, but I don't put the pressure on myself to play like Eric Johnson or Paul Gilbert or I don't have the time in the day to do that. But I can still enjoy it immensely. And in some ways I enjoy it way more than I did before.

Speaker 1 (00:52:56):

That makes sense.

Speaker 2 (00:52:57):

I have such an appreciation for my time to do it, and I have such an appreciation for the people I make music with to be in the same space with these people for half a day or whatever it is, just to look at each other and say, 1, 2, 3, 4, and just make that noise. It's just so much fun. That is the most relaxing thing that I can think of. I am an anxious person. I've always had anxiety issues just so the guitar or that making music in that way is the one thing that's always been able to put the other thoughts in my head aside.

Speaker 1 (00:53:39):

Interesting. So maybe, yeah, don't quit that.

Speaker 2 (00:53:43):

Yeah, there was a time, actually, there was a time where I didn't, when I first started engineering, I kind of stopped playing and I became miserable, and I didn't realize why I was miserable. And my girlfriend at the time said, well, you used to play guitar six, seven hours a day and you haven't touched it in two months. And it hit me like, oh yeah, you're right. It is a big part of my life.

Speaker 1 (00:54:03):

Yeah, it's interesting how much time can go by once you get wrapped up with something else. I feel like if you don't make a conscious decision to keep up with something, months or years can even go by. So how did you go about learning more about mastering once you decided that you're doing this? Did you just learn by doing

Speaker 2 (00:54:27):

Well, at first, yes. I started off that way and learned by doing, and then I got to a point where I was, after being in that studio in soho for a year or two, I just started feeling anxious. I need to be better. I need to be able to look my clients in the eye and say, this is the right place for you to be. I can do as good a job as anyone. And I didn't feel that way, frankly. I just didn't have enough experience. So at that time, Scott Hall was leaving Master Disk and he was putting a room together at this studio called Classic Sound. And we had talked, and I don't know if he asked me or somehow we got on the subject of him needing an assistant, and I said, I'd really love to be an assistant for you. And Scott worked at Master Disc for a long time. Well, he owns Master Dicks now, I guess, but he was Bob Lu's assistant for about 10 years. And so I'm like, well, this is a perfect opportunity for me to learn. And I said, I'm happy to take a step back. I just be your assistant and figure out what I already know, what's right and what's wrong, what else I need to learn. So I was his assistant for several years at Classic Sound, and that really helped me.

Speaker 1 (00:55:44):

Was this in addition to the studio in soho, or did you leave?

Speaker 2 (00:55:48):

No, I left.

Speaker 1 (00:55:49):

So you made another decision. That's the kind of stuff, I mean is you got to say no to certain things in order to allow other things in too.

Speaker 2 (00:55:58):

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:55:59):

It's telling that you were willing to take a step back in order to, in the end, move forward. But I think a lot of people, once they get to the point of running their own show, they don't usually want to then suddenly apprentice under somebody.

Speaker 2 (00:56:18):

Yeah, it's hard. People would come in. I mean, I knew I needed to do it. It I wasn't good enough, frankly, there's no other way I could put it. I just needed to become a better engineer and it was a good opportunity for me. Scott's an excellent engineer. He's an excellent, not just a mastery engineer. He's an excellent just audio engineer. He really knows his stuff, so it really helped me. He taught me a lot. And not just that, but just being in the room every day with these sessions that he was doing. I was working side by side with him for years, and there's so many little things that you pick up. It's not just about how you set a compressor up, it's how you deal with clients, the interaction, the scheduling. Then there's of course the engineering end of it too, and how you get to certain decisions, but there's so many little things that you just can't learn unless you're in that room.

Speaker 1 (00:57:16):

Yeah, absolutely. I think that one of the things that people listening should understand is that producers who come from a small town and build up a studio in that small town and never get out of there and somehow develop big careers, which happens sometimes are an anomaly, like totally self-taught. They do exist, but they're a total anomaly. And you know about them because they're famous. But you need to understand that for that to happen, it's just super, super, super rare. Most people need to learn by doing and seeing somebody better than them do it over time,

Speaker 2 (00:57:54):

Especially with mastering, because even if you have a quote hit record that you mastered, it will draw some attention, but it's not going to, these things are rarely career changing. If you could be a mix engineer in a small town, and if by some great fortune you mix a record that sells and the band goes on to fame, that will likely help you a lot. But like you said, that's not going to be the average career.

Speaker 1 (00:58:24):

No, and that's actually typically how it does happen is that there's a band in a small town who happens to get big, and then whoever they worked with gets big with them. But that's about as rare as a band from a small town getting big. It happens, but it doesn't happen every day. It doesn't happen every day. And it's one band out of tens of thousands who are trying for the same thing. So I know several people who that's happened for, but I have to always remind myself and remind other people that, well, I know them because it happened for them, but they're the exception that it's like this little, I feel like sometimes the industry is this little bubble and you forget it's a bubble, the people. So if you know 20 people who that happened for you can start thinking to yourself, that's normal, but it's not normal. You just know them because they're the ones who happen to get past the great filter or whatever.

Speaker 2 (00:59:25):

For sure.

Speaker 1 (00:59:26):

So you spent several years engineering under him? Assisting

Speaker 2 (00:59:31):

And then that kind of grew organically too, where I started doing more stuff of my own while I was there, and then it just got to a point, I don't even remember how it happened, but I was getting busy enough that I kind of worked around his schedule and we brought in another assistant and then he left to go to, I think the hip factory, if I remember correctly. And then I kind of took the room over, so to speak, and continued my work and then I had a little bit more opportunity to try to grow my client base there.

Speaker 1 (01:00:05):

So what's the kind of stuff that you were learning that you couldn't pick up on your own? Can you think of anything specific?

Speaker 2 (01:00:12):

For example, how he would use a compressor was a little different than I was using it and how he was game staging, it was a little different. And then there's just those things where with compression, you know, just have to keep trying it and hearing it and kind of teach your ears how to hear what's actually happening and not just level change. And is that better? Is that worse? It's hard for me to say honestly what specific things. It's

Speaker 1 (01:00:44):

Just, but it sounds like those are the specific things. It's just certain techniques. There's

Speaker 2 (01:00:49):

A million little things that just go in the process of starting a session, doing the session, finishing the session, getting the parts out. Yeah, I mean, I was doing them all to a certain degree, but just not as efficiently as he was just better at it at that time, and he had certain skills that I didn't have and it's like I could do, you know what I mean? It's like you could do the same things, but it's you're not getting the same results.

Speaker 1 (01:01:18):

Yeah. It's amazing how quickly you can get better if you're under the right person.

Speaker 2 (01:01:25):

And also when you're not around anybody, it's difficult to kick your own ass into thinking different because you get into these ruts even it's the same thing with guitar. You'll just start doing the same patterns open, and when someone else comes into the room and they say something different or Why don't we try this? And you're like, oh yeah, it could be just that simple where you're like, yeah, I never thought to do that. And it forces your brain to try to do something else and then you learn, maybe I like it, maybe I don't. But it keeps you your brain active in trying to learn something new.

Speaker 1 (01:02:01):

And also it's good to know where the bar is. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:02:04):

If

Speaker 1 (01:02:04):

You're not around the bar, if you're just kind of in your own little world and you don't get to experience what it's like to be around someone that has true mastery over the craft or the art, you can kind of start believing that you're a lot better than you actually are. Or maybe you're right, but you have no way to really know if you don't have any experience learning where the bar is at.

Speaker 2 (01:02:29):

That's a great point, because that's how I felt when I was at ground zero. I'm like, am I doing this right? I mean, it sounds good and clients are happy, but I'm not happy. I don't know. I don't know if this is as good as it can be. And that's exactly how I felt. I just was so, I didn't want to fool myself and I wanted people to know that this is, I didn't want to do a disservice to people's art and their records, so I knew I had to take a step back or sideways or however you want to look at it, just to know, to get my own confidence, to be able to look someone in the eye and say, yeah, I'm very confident on how this sounds and this is going to work well, or there's always subtleties, but I need to know that I can look you in the eye and say, this is a really great sound and song. This is a great sound and record.

Speaker 1 (01:03:19):

Just out of curiosity, did you tell anyone that you felt like you weren't good enough and did they think you were nuts?

Speaker 2 (01:03:26):

I may have had this conversation with Scott when we were talking about me working there. I honestly don't remember, but I do remember my girlfriend at the time and being like, I don't know. I just don't. Oh, and there was also a friend of mine who worked at Relativity Records,

Speaker 1 (01:03:39):

The old metal label

Speaker 2 (01:03:41):

At the time, they were doing mostly hip hop.

Speaker 1 (01:03:42):

Okay, maybe it's a different relativity,

Speaker 2 (01:03:45):

So I know what you're thinking of. And I was like, he asked me to do this hip hop project, and I'm like, he's like, I can get you this record to master, but my ass is on the line, so I need to know that you're good enough. I'm like, yeah, I'm good enough. But then I went home and I thought, well, geez, I can't let my friend down. I was really torn up about it. Geez, I'm going to really feel bad if I do a shit job or if they're not happy. And that was really a time for me where I know I am not there yet. I need to know how to get there and make sure I get there. It all went fine, but everyone was happy. But just to feel like that, it was a terrible feeling. Honestly, for me.

Speaker 1 (01:04:28):

I think it's a good thing to have that feeling though.

Speaker 2 (01:04:31):

Yeah. It's not good when you're going through it, but I care.

Speaker 1 (01:04:37):

No, it doesn't feel good. I really do think that nobody gets to be awesome without feeling like they're not good enough. At some point, they have to feel like they're not good enough at some point, unless, again, there's always outliers here and there. Maybe there's some people who are just incredible and know they're incredible and just they're God's gift. But I think in most cases, people need to feel like they're not good enough and know that they need to get better and want to get better, and then do the things necessary to get better. If you don't have that feeling of I'm not good enough, why torture yourself to get better? Why not just stay where you're at? I want to talk a little bit about mastering itself because you do multiple genres from rock to soundtracks. Do you approach these things differently or is it more like you're starting from the same ground zero every time,

Speaker 2 (01:05:37):

Kind of starting from the same ground? Zero? It doesn't really matter to me as much as you might think on the style of music. I mean, there's always conversations with the artists of what their expectation is, but for the most part, the balance that I perceive needs to happen, so to speak, is kind of the same. There's just a certain way our ear wants to hear music, the balance of the lows, the mids and the highs. They just work best for the most part in a certain way. So there's that. Then I say 90% of what I do is kind of the same regardless of the genre. And then the 10% is depending really more so on the client and what their expectation is. Do they want things to lean a little vocal centric or base centric or dynamic or loud? So yeah, that's the best way I can describe it.

Speaker 1 (01:06:36):

Yeah. Okay. That's what I figured is that it all kind of starts in the same place and then gets kind of tweaked according to the individual, I guess, parameters. Do you ever get requests you disagree with? I know that some mastering engineers do not slamming the shit out of masters, some don't care. But what do you do when you get a request that you disagree with?

Speaker 2 (01:07:02):

Well, I always tell people that if somebody comes to me and asks me to master their project, it's my job to give them what they want as much as I can. So my opinion is not really that important unless I feel that there's something really negative that could happen. So I will just tell them if they want more or less. If something, for example, you brought up level, if I think it's just too loud that I'm really hearing something, I'll just be honest and say, here's how it sounds the way you asked me. I think if we do this, I'm hearing it that it sounds a little better, check it out both ways. Sometimes they go, oh yeah, we hear what you're saying. Let's go with what you said. And then other times they say, we hear what you're saying, but we like it better the way we suggest it. And if that's what they like, then that's what they get. That's my job is to deliver how they want it. And some people like things, like I said, a little baier than others, a little louder. And I try to steer them in the right direction, so to speak. But also I just let them know the pros and cons. If I think there are cons, I'll let them know, but at the end of the day, it's their project, their record, and I'll give them the way they prefer it.

Speaker 1 (01:08:21):

Yeah, I feel like you kind of got to stay a little detached from your own personal opinion on things.

Speaker 2 (01:08:28):

Oh, definitely. I'm not the producer. It's not my record. And that I always try to make that clear to people that I'm not trying to put my quote stamp on the project. I'm not trying to give them the Joel Lambert sound. I just want their music to sound as enjoyable as possible. And then let's also consider everything that they are asking if they have specific ideas, and let's see if we can incorporate all.

Speaker 1 (01:08:53):

Do you see mastering as art or craft?

Speaker 2 (01:08:55):

Yes. I just think it's both.

Speaker 1 (01:08:57):

Yes. Okay. What side of it is the art?

Speaker 2 (01:08:59):

The art for me is sitting here and working on a song, and it actually looked like the speakers look different to me when it's not right. It's funny, I, I know Bruce Swine has talked about how he could see colors. I don't see colors, but there's a depth that the room kind of feels different to me when the EQ is right. For example, I was working on this song yesterday, and the mix had just basically no bottom end. I could couldn't get this image of the low end. I couldn't feel or see the drums in the track. So I have to start working, and as I'm working, I can honestly start to look between my speakers and it just, I don't know how else to describe it. I get the senses of, okay, there's the drums. Now I hear them, I'm feeling them. There's a pulse I can hear and I can see the vocal going back into the center of the mix. So there's that. Part of it to me is, for me, I look at it as art, and you can, I don't know if it is or not, but for me, I feel like that's an artistic thing that I'm doing.

Speaker 1 (01:10:10):

And it's unique to you. It's the way that you hear music. Yeah, I was just curious because a lot of people think that mastering is purely just like a service a craft, but I don't see it that way.

Speaker 2 (01:10:25):

Yeah. I think there's so many different projects too that my involvement in projects ranges. And that's another question that people will ask me like, well, how much input do you want to have? And I'm like, I'll do whatever you want me to do. And there's clients who just come in and say, just do whatever you want, Joe. If you feel like the song should be resequenced, we trust you. Just do whatever you want. And then there's people who come in with a very different, where they look like they're handing me a Picasso, and their goal is basically, don't fuck this up. They're very happy with what it is and do anything needed, but don't do anything that's not offended or put off by any of it. I just want to help. And I think that ties into what we were talking about earlier. When I was younger, I was trying to let people know what I could do, and I think what I started getting busier when I shifted how I thought, and my goal wasn't about letting people know what I could do, and I just came in and said, my job today is just to help them get the most out they can.

Speaker 1 (01:11:44):

So it's about them instead of you.

Speaker 2 (01:11:45):

Yeah, just put your ego aside. If I make one tweak and that makes them happy, then I'm totally content. If I have to daisy change six pieces of gear together to get them to be happy, it doesn't make a difference to me. My goal is that they're happy. And then I started getting a, I started enjoying what I did more, and B, I started becoming more successful and busier because people know they can trust you. I'm not trying, again, I'm not trying to put my stamp on it. I just want to make sure this is as good as it can be.

Speaker 1 (01:12:23):

It's interesting. I've always thought of it as putting your ego aside so that you can get the ultimate ego gratification later because it's a way better gratification to be successful and have several successful projects and a network that likes you and you're in demand with than to win one battle, one ego battle in the moment. The reason I say that is because ego's a natural part of who we are. We all have an ego, and it's not going away. So you have to figure out how to properly address it. And I think that thinking about it in terms of big picture is way better because it allows you to not let the ego cloud day-to-day decisions. So that said, I think this is a good place to stop it. Joe Lambert, I want to thank you for coming on the podcast. It's been a pleasure talking to you.

Speaker 2 (01:13:13):

The pleasure is all mine. I've really had a good time. I was really excited to do this. And yeah, thank you so much for your time. Thanks

Speaker 1 (01:13:18):

For being here. Okay, then another URM podcast episode in the bag. Please remember to share our episodes with your friends, as well as post them to your Facebook, Instagram, or any social media you use. Please tag me at al Levi URM audio. And of course, please tag my guests as well. Till next time, happy mixing. You've been listening to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast. To ask us questions, make suggestions and interact, visit URM Academy and press the podcast link today.