Thomas “Plec” Johansson: A relentless work ethic, applying pop principles to metal, and the art of commitment

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast, and now your host, Eyal Levi. Welcome to the URM Podcast. Thank you so much for being here. It's crazy to think that we're now on our fifth year, but it's true, and it's only because of you, the listeners. And if you'd like to see us stick around for another five years, there are a few simple things that you can do that would really, really help us out, and I would be endlessly appreciative. Number one, share our episodes with your friends. If you get something out of these episodes, I'm sure they will too. So please share us with your friends. Number two, post our episodes on your Facebook and Instagram and tag me and our guests too. My Instagram is at al Levy urm audio. And let me just let you know that we love seeing ourselves tagged in these posts.

(00:00:55):

Who knows, we might even respond. And number three, leave us reviews and five stars please anywhere you can. We especially love iTunes reviews. Once again, I want to thank you all for the years and years of loyalty. I just want you to know that we will never, ever charge you for this podcast, and I will always work as hard as possible to improve the episodes in every single way possible. All I ask in return is a share post and a tag. Now, let's get on with it. Hello everybody. Welcome to the URM Podcast. My guest today is pl, who's a producer, mixer, and mastering engineer who owns and operates the Panic Room Studios in Sweden. That's a very well-known studio. You know him for his work with Soilwork Scar symmetry, Watain Mayhem, and even Eurovision. He's done a lot of stuff in multiple genres, and I'm very excited to have him on. I introduce you Pl pl. Welcome to the URM podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:01:53):

Thanks for having me on. How

Speaker 1 (00:01:55):

Are you doing?

Speaker 2 (00:01:55):

I'm doing great. Sweet is snowy and cold, and it's, yeah, usual weather around this time of year, so just being inside in the studio and doing some work,

Speaker 1 (00:02:07):

24 hours of dark. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:02:09):

I mean, it's the best time to be doing some studio stuff. I mean, in the summer at least, you can be outside in Sweden for a little bit, at least for one day. That's what we usually say. Summer is one day a year.

Speaker 1 (00:02:23):

By one day you mean the six week holiday? Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:02:26):

Exactly.

Speaker 1 (00:02:30):

I've seen the pictures from those holidays. That's pretty amazing to me. One thing I've always thought is incredible is that you guys take that six week break and are still productive, whereas here, people have to claw their way to get a week per year or something like that.

Speaker 2 (00:02:48):

Yeah, that's true.

Speaker 1 (00:02:49):

Yeah. Is that holiday mandatory?

Speaker 2 (00:02:52):

I guess so. I mean, if you're an employee, it's mandatory in a way, but I mean, I know basically no one who does that. I mean, if you're a music producer and doing stuff, you're always working, I guess, so it's not really,

Speaker 1 (00:03:05):

You make the decision to keep working.

Speaker 2 (00:03:07):

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 3 (00:03:08):

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:03:09):

Is it just because you know that in music, if you stop someone else takes the work? Or is it because you have so much work and so many deadlines that you just can't stop?

Speaker 2 (00:03:21):

Yeah, I mean, I don't think we have the luxury to just stop. I mean, there's so much to do and too little time, I guess. So mean, at least for me, I just keep on working and of course, take some time off when it's possible. And I mean, in the summer, maybe I get a couple of weeks max every year, but otherwise it's just full of stuff to do so you don't turn down work, I guess. So

Speaker 1 (00:03:45):

You know what I think is interesting about that? It's very similar to owning your own company. I mean, it kind is the same exact thing. If you run a production yourself as a producer or mastering engineer, whatever, you are your own company, you could take the break, but everything stops when you stop. I guess with a company like mine, it's not that everything stops. Since it's mine, I know that I'm taking the break. I know that there's things that I could be doing to help move the ball forward, so I feel that I'm taking the break, and so it's hard for me to take too long. I can't take longer than a week because I'm saying this knowing that I have an amazing team who do great work, but nobody else is going to do my job for me. So if I take a break, the part of it that's my job, it just stays there. And it's kind of the same as with being a producer or something. If you stop working, it's not like things keep going. They keep going without you.

Speaker 2 (00:04:49):

Yeah, I mean, everything stops. It comes to a halt, and I mean, sure, if you want to do that, fine, but at the same time, I mean, if you want to keep moving forward and doing that at a good pace, I think, I mean, why stop working? Well, sometimes it's good to stop working, but at the same time, it's good to be moving forward.

Speaker 1 (00:05:10):

Do you believe that phrase that if you're not moving forward, you're moving backwards?

Speaker 3 (00:05:15):

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (00:05:17):

Same here. The thing that I've noticed is when people start to maintain and kind of hover at a similar level in music, what ends up generally happening with some exceptions, what generally ends up happening is that the music scene passes them by. So that works for a little while. Say they find some success in a genre or something, if they just decide, okay, this is what I do, I'm comfortable here, there's a limited amount of time that that'll work. It could be a few years, it could be a few months. There's no way to know, but either way, there's a limited amount of time that'll work. The music scene will evolve into something else. And so if you're not constantly trying to move forward and either stay on top of that or a little bit ahead of that, you'll kind of get left behind.

Speaker 2 (00:06:02):

Yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:06:02):

It's just what happens.

Speaker 2 (00:06:03):

Exactly. I mean, and there's always someone who's willing to work harder than you have to be keeping up with what's going on. And as you say, if you stop for a period of time, someone else will just drive you by. So yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:06:21):

Yeah. There's this thing that I realized when I was producing that I personally didn't know how to get around this. I know that other people I know have figured out how to get around it, and part of it is learning how to tolerate it. I remember that there were certain things that sometimes labels did that I thought were not cool in terms of deadlines or in terms of payments, things like that. And I realized that if I made a drama out of this, stood up for myself too much, that there was somebody else who would work just as hard, who wouldn't do that, and they'll just go to that person.

Speaker 3 (00:07:03):

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 (00:07:04):

That doesn't work for my personality type. I know a lot of amazing producers who figured out how to maneuver that successfully, and I think that a lot of it has to do with they're more tolerant than I am. It's not that those situations don't bother them, it's more that they can tolerate them. That's all. But that said, I think that that's crucial to be able to tolerate those things and keep moving because exactly that there is somebody else. There's somebody else who if you stop working will work harder. There's somebody else who, if you make trouble, won't make trouble. There's always somebody else.

Speaker 2 (00:07:41):

Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's a very small pond.

Speaker 1 (00:07:44):

I think a lot of people want to do it, but not that many people are good at it. Yeah, exactly. It's not. It's a wide pond, a large one of people who state their intent as doing music or production, but in reality, the actual amount of people who are contenders is very, very small, especially in heavy music for sure. It's a tiny, tiny community. Has this attitude been with you your entire career?

Speaker 2 (00:08:14):

For sure. I think at least in the beginning. I mean, for me, I'm better at it today. I mean, not worrying so much about someone else taking work and stuff like that, but I mean, in the beginning there was a lot of that. I mean, really worried about other people taking work and just constantly going ahead and really working too hard 24 7 almost for long periods of time. I mean, when you're really young, you can do that. Of course, that's not really a problem. But as you grow older, it tends to, I mean, you need to find a balance somewhere, and we're still not really super good at that, but I'm getting better.

Speaker 1 (00:08:56):

Yeah, it's interesting. I think that balance isn't really possible, but it's a good ideal to strive for because I don't know a single person who is successful in a creative endeavor who's a balance. Balance the way that you think it would be. Yeah, totally. I don't know a single one.

Speaker 2 (00:09:19):

No, same here.

Speaker 1 (00:09:20):

Actually. I know a couple, but they're psychotic. Look, they're not really balanced. They behave in a balanced way, but I know that they're crazy. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:09:30):

Well, I guess that's true. I mean, when I think about it, all the guys that I know who are really good at it and does it really, really well, I mean, there's no one who's really does it as a nine to five kind of work and have a super normal family life or whatever. There's always something else.

Speaker 1 (00:09:48):

Yeah. Do you think that that's because of the creative temperament, or do you think it's because in order to succeed in the music industry, you have to be a little different? Just because it's a different kind of industry. It kind of has its own rules and the nine to five lifestyle. I mean, there's some things you could do. You could impose nine to five hours on your studio. You could do things like that. You can have a family, so you can have some things that are the same as what I call the real world. But at the end of the day, this industry doesn't operate by the same rules.

Speaker 3 (00:10:20):

Exactly.

Speaker 1 (00:10:21):

Do you think that that's one of the reasons for why maybe finding someone that's balanced in what we would think of the mainstream definition of the word is hard to find?

Speaker 2 (00:10:31):

I have to agree with that because I've been doing this for 20 years now, and still I'm looking for that person. Yeah, that's a normal normalist. It's a weird word, I guess, but at the same time, who's really, really balanced in what they do as you would see someone just going to work and doing whatever. So I don't think it might be possible to really take that into our industry because I say it operates by different set of rules. It takes a different kind of person, I think, to really make it.

Speaker 1 (00:11:07):

What do you think that is when you look at an up and coming producer or engineer and musician, say someone that wants to intern or engineer like a kid, have you ever met someone who's like 20, something like that? Or you're thinking to yourself, this person, if they don't develop a drug problem or get three girls pregnant or something, they might actually have a shot at this?

Speaker 2 (00:11:35):

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:11:36):

What is it about them when you notice that?

Speaker 2 (00:11:38):

I mean, really if we're looking into production and being in a studio, because that's the focus, right? I mean, not artistry or we're talking studio now like studio production. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (00:11:50):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:11:51):

I mean, for that part, it's a bit different to be in a studio and doing production than being an artist. Sometimes they of course, combine, but I think what makes a good assistant, they have to be really, really good. I mean, they have a lot of talent, but talent isn't enough. They really need to be willing to work super hard and learn a lot of new stuff and be creative, and it's very, very few people who have all of that as a package. Some people can be, they have a lot of talent, but they're not willing to work for it, and some just are willing to work, but they have no talent, and that's like, that's impossible. Yeah, that's sad. So I mean, there's something weird that happens when all of that just gels and it's working, and very, very few people have that. I mean, even looking at artists and things like that, it's very seldom you run into someone who has all of those components there to really make it work.

Speaker 1 (00:12:51):

So you think that in some ways, from what I'm understanding, it's the kind of person you are to begin with?

Speaker 2 (00:12:57):

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, for sure. I mean,

Speaker 1 (00:12:59):

I agree.

Speaker 2 (00:13:00):

There has to be something else there that, I mean, it's not learnable it a way. You have to have the raw talent for it, and then on top of that, you have to be willing to work super hard to really make it work in the long run. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:13:16):

So what part do you think is teachable or learnable?

Speaker 2 (00:13:19):

I mean, all the technical stuff is learnable, I think, and that's a really hard, I mean, I can remember when I got into this, the late nineties. I mean there were internet forums, I think, but that's it. Nothing else. So I read a lot of books, a lot of stuff on the subject, and I can truthfully say now that the first book I ever read on studio, music, production, whatever, actually held all the information technically that I needed to know.

Speaker 1 (00:13:50):

Funny how that works, right? Because people are always looking for that secret or that extra hidden knowledge or whatever, and it's all there.

Speaker 2 (00:14:01):

It's all there. I mean, it's not that hard to learn all the technical stuff. I mean, the rest is just experience and just having the musical talent to make things work. So

Speaker 1 (00:14:14):

Speaking of making it work, you kind of made it work in a way that's backwards from what's the norm. Most people don't start in mastering and then move to production. Usually they start in production, then mixing, then mastering. Usually that's the progression. It's usually not the other way around. I find that interesting. So first of all, what drew you to mastering as a place to start and what drew you out of it?

Speaker 2 (00:14:44):

Yeah, it's a weird thing because, well, it is not really that weird, I guess, because there's a really famous producer called Phil Ramon, if you know that guy.

(00:14:53):

He always had this idea of when it was training assistants that they would have to know mastering at least to a point, like how to cut vinyl in those days and whatever. Because his idea was that if you don't know what the end medium, the end result, how that's going to translate to an end listener on a physical medium, you don't really know what decisions will be good or bad in a production environment. It'll be nearly impossible to really make that work. So his idea was you need to know it backwards. And for me, I just thought mastering was cool back in those days again, it's like late nineties early internet, and so many guys were into recording and mixing, but mastering was still this black art kind of thing. I thought it was interesting. It really caught my eye, so to speak, and then I got to work backwards from there, really.

(00:15:58):

Of course, I was interested in recording from the get go. I mean, I'm a guitar player from the start, so I did all this recording stuff as well of course. But then when I got into mastering, I figured this is really what I want to go ahead with and pursue. And doing that, of course, I started mastering work with all the guys in my area and I just figured after a while that, alright, so mastering is going pretty well, but I'm still not getting the results that I imagine from it still, and that's when you get into the mixing part. Alright, so the problem is in the mixing I guess. So I started learning that,

Speaker 1 (00:16:43):

Yeah, you can't master a bad mix into a great one.

Speaker 2 (00:16:47):

Exactly. I mean really, if you have a really, really, really good mix, mastering is super simple and that's what a lot of people get backwards as well. Mastering is supposed to do this amazing thing and sometimes it can do an amazing thing, but when it does something truly amazing, that's more up to luck I think, because you can't really do that much with the process if everything is really, really locked in to begin with. So I mean going to mixing, it's like, alright, so what comes after that? I mean, if you want to have a great mix, you need to have a great recording and to get a great recording, you need good songs, you need good arrangements, you need everything backwards in a way. So that's my journey really.

Speaker 1 (00:17:34):

It's interesting because one thing that I try to really, really reinforce to people listening or watching now the mix or whatever is that you don't build it correctly from the ground up down to the arrangement, the engineering choices, the production, a great mix. You're not going to save it in mastering.

Speaker 3 (00:17:58):

Exactly.

Speaker 1 (00:17:59):

Also, you might save it in a mix if it's a bad production, but it still won't be as good as it could possibly be. It probably won't be the best mix ever. It might just be salvaged. It's hard for people to realize that a mastering, it's not a magic solution. So I remember when my band got mixed by Colin Richardson and mastered by Ted Jensen, so people were talking, this was in 2006. I mean we know Ted's great, but I remember people talking about him. He's a god and dream team, Colin and Ted. So I thought that I was going to get this mix from Colin, which was badass, and then Ted was going to get it and it was going to like 10 x in amazingness and really all that happened was it was a little louder and maybe I could hear the low end up of DB or something

Speaker 2 (00:18:53):

Perfect, best mastering ever.

Speaker 1 (00:18:55):

It was though, it sounded just like the mix, but louder with a little bit more thump to it. That's it. But I mean the mix was great to begin with. It didn't need any salvaging, but that's literally all that happened. If you level match 'em, it's really not that different and to me, that's some of the best mastering I've ever heard. Exactly. I think in part also though, because he recognized that he had a great mix so he didn't just start doing crazy shit because he has the power to, I have noticed that, and this might sound really, really obvious, the worst the mix is and the crazier, the amount of stuff that the mastering engineer has to do, generally the worst the results are

Speaker 2 (00:19:43):

Generally.

(00:19:44):

Yeah, generally. So yeah, totally. I mean, when I've gone to master myself, I mean the best times is when the guy just pulls out a nicu, few adjustments and a limiter and it's done because that's when you have a great mix and that's when you're going to get a great result. You have someone at the end just fine tuning those little bits that really makes it really balanced and the hard part to learn about mastery, it's like when do you leave it alone? I mean, you have to recognize when you get something really, really great and you have to recognize even you get something really, really bad and you can't do anything, where do you draw the line? All the experience boils down to that to really know that stuff.

Speaker 1 (00:20:29):

Is it more just you hear it and because of your experience and your knowledge of your tools, do you automatically just have a reaction, almost an instinctive reaction that I can't work with this or I can't really do much. For instance, I know something that I did a lot was edit drums and I got to a point where just hearing a performance, I would know what it would sound like edited, or if it wasn't editable, I would just know. Of course, anything could be edited but not musically. Just by hearing it after doing it for several years, I would just know right away is it that sort of thing. You hear it and you just

Speaker 2 (00:21:12):

Absolutely. I mean, as you say, I mean that boils down to experience and the technical stuff can be learned. I mean, for you to learn the technical aspects of editing drums, I mean it's pretty simple in a way. You know what to do, but really to gain the experience to know how much can you do? How is this performance actually going to sound when it is edited, when is it impossible?

Speaker 1 (00:21:33):

What's the drummer intending?

Speaker 2 (00:21:35):

Yeah, exactly. I mean, yeah, it's the same thing. Of course, when I hear a mix, I probably analyze so many things in the first few seconds I hear it that I don't really know what I'm analyzing I guess. But you go through all that stuff and you know exactly what to do, where to draw the line, and what's the status of the entire project basically. So I mean, I can even be working on something in production and I hear an arrangement thing that I hear instantly like, alright, this is going to be hard to master in context without everything else, so can we work on this arrangement part and maybe do it like this instead? Yeah, you really need to go through everything and be working for so many years to gain that experience. And of course the rest that is learnable is pretty simple.

Speaker 1 (00:22:20):

It's interesting. I'm just curious, what are the kinds of things, if you could think of any, that in an arrangement you would hear just out of curiosity and think this is going to be hard to master.

Speaker 2 (00:22:32):

I have this idea of keeping the speakers happy just as much as keeping the artist happy. I dunno if that makes sense at all, but it does. It's like usually if an artist has an idea and they're happy with it, but I know my speakers aren't going to be happy with this in the end. I mean usually what keeps my speakers happy will keep everyone else happy. It might be an idea from the artist's point of view that, oh, this will be really, really good when it's mixed or whatever, but I can already tell like, alright, this is going to really mess things up. And I mean just from a loudness perspective, it might be hard to get things to a certain point just because of this little part.

Speaker 1 (00:23:13):

Just to clarify, when you mean your speakers happy, I'll tell you what I'm imagining in my head and tell me this is accurate. So the speaker has to physically reproduce the sound by moving air, and so what you send to the speaker determines the phases at which it moves and how it moves and how it moves, makes all the difference in the world. King was actually on years ago on the podcast talking about that, about how he thinks about the speaker movement as an integral part of, I believe his mixing process. But is that kind of what you mean?

Speaker 2 (00:23:53):

Absolutely, yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:23:54):

Okay.

Speaker 2 (00:23:55):

So on point, I think if we use a simple idea as drums, it's a good thing to talk about in this context because if you're doing super dense productions, you will usually go into drum samples to make everything work because it makes a speaker in context more happy to reproduce it rather than have really complex wave forms as in an acoustic drum kit where you have more chaos, you have more face issues and whatever. So I mean, that is a thing that will keep us speaking more happy. And the sounds that you're layering and how you mix it, what will be a good thing for the speakers to actually reproduce a simpler waveform is easier to produce. I mean, a lot of people like electronic music usually. Electronic music for the most part has a tendency to sound more pleasing to the air and metal. I mean going, looking at it through the years has become more and more electronic music based.

Speaker 1 (00:25:02):

Yes.

Speaker 2 (00:25:03):

I mean even guitar sounds nowadays are really, I mean, it's more like electronic to my ears. It is. It's not like amps and all the chaos and it's more a pleasant, controlled kind of chaos.

Speaker 1 (00:25:18):

It's like a chiseled carving. It's like almost

Speaker 2 (00:25:21):

Exactly. It's just as much a synthesizer as anything else that keeps a speaker happy, nothing strange. I mean, it has a tendency to also translate better into different environments and smaller systems, large systems, et cetera. So yeah, that's pretty much my idea about it.

Speaker 1 (00:25:40):

Do you think that with older school metal, it's because frequencies weren't nearly as carved and specific and the dynamics weren't as specific, like multi-band, for instance, compressing just the exact right or the low end to move exactly the right way, things like that weren't happening. And with guitar distortion taking up all the frequencies in older recordings and then distorted bass taking all the low frequencies and then heavy ass vocals, taking all of the mids and some of the lows and maybe some distortion on them too, taking up more of everything else without that carved, how would that translate to clarity in a speaker? It sounds like a hell of a time for a speaker to try to reproduce that.

Speaker 2 (00:26:27):

Yeah, yeah. Even look at old school metal, I mean arrangement wise, again, everything to me is arrangement. The mix is really arranging and looking at older school metal. It's easier. It's simpler arrangements. I mean, you have drums, bass rhythm, guitars, vocals pretty much basic. You don't have 20 layers of keys, you don't have 40 layers of lead guitar work coming in with these intricate effects and stuff like that. It's a whole different idea, and that makes raw sounds well arranged, like simpler arrangements can also make a speaker very happy. I guess

Speaker 1 (00:27:09):

With the old school recordings I'm thinking about about lots of the old school death metal recordings that are very muddy. I mean, they were cool for the time, but if you compare them to now, you don't have the clarity whatsoever. I know there are some great old school recordings for sure. I'm not talking about those. I'm talking about more the fact that with older metal recordings, for instance, you put it next to an electronic record or a pop record would sound tiny or a rock record even. It would sound tiny. It was depressing. And I don't think that happens quite as much anymore. It still happens to a degree, but not quite as much. Now with metal production being a lot more electronic, like you said, a lot more carved, a lot more speaker pleasing. It sounds a lot bigger and a lot closer to those more mainstream styles in terms of overall quality and size

Speaker 2 (00:28:09):

For sure. I mean, these days speakers are happier. Speakers are for sure happier these days with everything we do. Yeah, I think it's just a natural progression of people learning and styles evolving and whatever.

Speaker 1 (00:28:27):

So being that that's something that you think about, what happens when you get a mix to master where you hear it and you just know that there's going to be problems getting to sound good on speakers? Do you ever, I'm just wondering because the very first time that my band ever got something mastered, we didn't know what we were doing. I had just started producing and I thought that I needed to hire some super expensive mastering guy. So we flew to LA and went to Capital Records we're from Atlanta and hired some major label 500 an hour guy. This was in 2003 or something, and we went there and he listened to it and the first thing he said was, this needs to be remixed. Such a fucking bummer. What a bummer. Yeah. But he was right. What do you do when that happens?

Speaker 2 (00:29:26):

The fun thing is I think it doesn't happen so much these days. I mean, generally I think that people are better at it. They have so much knowledge, and even though they might have the experience, the knowledge makes up for it in quite a big way actually, and at least to the point where you don't need to remix it to get a good master out of it. But if I can tell it's, well, this will never end up in a good place, I might say, yeah, I mean you really need to remix it or just send me stems to master from so you can get this done in a good way.

Speaker 1 (00:30:03):

I know how much you love STEM mastery. Yeah. One thing that I do think that that's correct about the level of mixes these days, so I think that exceptional mixes are still rare. There's still very few people who can do something exceptional. However, the median average is pretty high compared to how it used to be. There's just like people who don't do it professionally who are just in bands who put together demos and stuff, their demos sound better than Mixes did once upon a time.

Speaker 3 (00:30:42):

Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (00:30:43):

It's crazy how good they sound. So I think that the base median level, base median, those two words don't go together, but you know what I mean, the base median level for mixing has gone up. And I mean, it's the same with guitar playing guitar player. I mean, there's some arguments that like, yeah, guitar players don't have the vibrato. They used to blah, blah, blah, that shit. But the bass median technical level now is way higher than when I was learning. It just is what it is. So you've definitely noticed that too, for sure. What do you think caused that? I have my ideas. I'm curious what yours are.

Speaker 2 (00:31:24):

My idea would be that, I mean, all the information is out there. I mean, as you guys, I mean, you show so many. Great.

Speaker 1 (00:31:34):

Yeah, we're definitely part of it. Think

Speaker 2 (00:31:36):

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's so much information to find out that it's really, really good. For the most part, I think there's a lot of good information to find, and the really bad information I think has gone down. It's easy to find good stuff nowadays on YouTube everywhere. That's my idea. But at the same time, as you say, the median, it is higher, but the real really great stuff is just as rare. I think

Speaker 1 (00:32:04):

That's why when some people said that they hated me for starting URM because we're going to take work away from them, I was like, no, no, we're not. You're amazing. You've got nothing to worry about. Trust me, you've got nothing to worry about. People are not going to stop loving your work just because there's a school for recording metal or mixing metal, it's not going to hurt anyone that's exceptional because it's still close to impossible to become exceptional at anything.

Speaker 2 (00:32:39):

And I think you're actually making it easier because I mean, when you get to work with people, they have a better,

Speaker 1 (00:32:44):

You stand out that much more now.

Speaker 2 (00:32:48):

I mean, they have a better understanding of the process or everything that is going on, and I think that makes it easier to actually work with more people than before.

Speaker 1 (00:33:00):

Well, yeah, man, I remember when I was producing and mixing, when I got out of it in 2014 was my last year when I started this towards the last few years were the years that the home studio thing was starting to become real, which is when I realized I needed to start URM. But there were several years where it was becoming a thing that bands are no longer all doing full records. They wanted to do drums, then record guitars themselves, then coming for vocals and mix, and that's just becoming the way it's done. Or bands are recording themselves or recording with a friend. That's just the way that things were going, and there was no way to stop it. And it was just becoming more and more and more every year. I feel like I noticed it in 2008 or oh nine starting, and by 2013 and 14, it was pretty obvious that this is what's happening, and so it's a good idea to probably help it not suck because this sucks right now.

(00:34:04):

I remember thinking to myself, this is not what I got into this for, is to deal with these idiots who can't do anything and then have to save their work. It was so, so frustrating, and it was almost every band sending me stuff to mix that they recorded horribly. Horribly. I feel like that doesn't quite happen so much. Not like it used to. And I'm talking about sign bands too. So I think that the overall level of engineering has gone up. Maybe not everyone's exceptional or anything, but the base level is high enough to where they can provide you with things that are mixable at least.

Speaker 2 (00:34:47):

Exactly.

Speaker 1 (00:34:47):

They're not a disaster.

Speaker 2 (00:34:49):

It's hard to find those situations nowadays when it's just plain wrong what people are doing. I mean, even though it's not exceptional, I mean, everyone can record a DI today and know what they're doing,

Speaker 1 (00:35:03):

Which believe it or not, in 2013 was not the case.

Speaker 2 (00:35:07):

Yeah, totally.

Speaker 1 (00:35:08):

I don't understand why, because all you had to do back then was plug it in,

Speaker 2 (00:35:13):

But for some reason it is different.

Speaker 1 (00:35:15):

That didn't change. Yeah, it's weird because the process of recording a DI has not changed,

Speaker 2 (00:35:24):

But still it's better. I mean, yeah, levels are great. I mean less, I never find people having issues with HUM and stuff like that anymore. At least not here. It's when I get sent di, it's like, yeah, finally a great di. I've been missing this for so many years and not always works. So

Speaker 1 (00:35:45):

Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a great thing. So your geographic area kind of helped you fall also in strangely enough with pop production, which led to you working with Eurovision. Funny enough, they do have metal on there, and we see the Eurovision metal winners on the internet, but that's not a metal show for anyone who isn't aware of that. It's a lot more like American Idol, right?

Speaker 3 (00:36:13):

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:36:15):

That sort of thing. So being that you come from the metal world, what was it like having that come across your desk and working in that world?

Speaker 2 (00:36:27):

The simplest way to explain it would be I'm living in the Nashville of Sweden,

Speaker 1 (00:36:33):

Which is where

Speaker 2 (00:36:34):

Right in between Gothenburg and Stockholm, right in between, and it's like Swedish, let's say Swedish pop and country was really, really, really huge. And in this part of it, you had almost all of those productions being made.

Speaker 1 (00:36:49):

So wait, wait, hold on a second. So when you say the Swedish Nashville, you mean the country music, what they have here in the US country? Music like cowboy hats and stuff.

Speaker 2 (00:37:00):

It is the closest resemblance to what we have here. I mean, yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:37:07):

Nashville,

Speaker 2 (00:37:08):

Well for Sweden, Nashville is country music and that whole scene is just huge here. Everything regarding country comes out of Nashville, and the same thing around these parts. Not all of it, but most of it like Eurovision stuff and

Speaker 1 (00:37:23):

Okay,

Speaker 2 (00:37:23):

Swedish pop and kind of country.

Speaker 1 (00:37:27):

So you mean it's like Nashville in that it's the mecca for popular music?

Speaker 2 (00:37:33):

Exactly. In that niche. Got it. So growing up here, me being more just focused on metal and rock, the big studios around here, because you have to, no, it's like in the middle of the countryside. It's like the outskirts of Sweden. It's not Stockholm, it's not Gothenburg, but still, we had large studios here, which is kind of weird, but all those studios were focused on doing that kind of Swedish pop and country rock type of music. So me being interested in the large studio for and just living here, that was just a very natural progression for me to just fall into that because this scene was a lot way bigger than the metal stuff that we had here. Even though that was my focus, it was a lot easier to go into that thing with the Swedish music stuff.

Speaker 1 (00:38:26):

Do you think partially it's because you lived where you lived and not in Gothenburg, for instance?

Speaker 2 (00:38:31):

For sure, yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:38:32):

If you lived in Gothenburg, do you think it would've been easier to just do metal, for instance?

Speaker 2 (00:38:37):

Absolutely. Yeah. Without a question. I mean, it was just saturated with that kind of music here, and it was a lot easy to fall into, and I'm glad I did because I learned so much from going into that and doing I totally different genre and did quite a few successful projects there. And yeah, I had so much use for that knowledge working in metal as well.

Speaker 1 (00:39:01):

I want to hear more about how the metal knowledge translates, and I have a selfish reason. I'm curious about your experience, but I also have a selfish reason for this, which I'll explain, which is URM we're mostly metal and rock. That's our thing, and we're not really deviating from that. We will do other things here and there, but that's our world and people who aren't into that tell me they'd be interested if we did other styles, and my answer is always, we have the best people in the world teaching. We're not just showing you death metal, we show you how to mix and master and record period, and the skills will translate, and if you can do metal, you can do other stuff. Metal is the fucking hardest. So I'm curious to how you found the skills translating,

Speaker 2 (00:39:55):

As we said before, going into electronic music and things like that. I mean, when you go into that pop world, you really need to know what keeps the speaker happy. It's very, very important because I mean, it's a different thing. How you produce something, how you arrange something to work in a pop world is nowadays it's really no different to metal, I guess. But back in those days, 20 years ago, it was quite different. So I kind of got this, got into this electronic world of doing stuff and I could apply that thinking to metal. So I mean, I've always had this idea of producing metal as equally being electronic music just because I had so much to do with that type of production work, and nowadays it's so much electronic that, I mean, you can almost not tell the difference, I guess

Speaker 1 (00:40:50):

It's just a lot of the same techniques applied.

Speaker 2 (00:40:53):

Yeah, exactly. Just a bit different, but I mean it's the same kind of aesthetic. May sound weird, but yeah, same

Speaker 1 (00:41:00):

Kind of polish making space for things, making it hit real fucking hard.

Speaker 2 (00:41:05):

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, and that's arrangement. I mean, the really good producers that I work with really, really knew arrangement. I mean to the point where they didn't record anything unless they had had a notation, a full score of what was going down.

Speaker 1 (00:41:22):

Oh, like real musicians.

Speaker 2 (00:41:23):

Yeah, exactly. Like real musicians, the most amazing people I've been in recording sessions. I'm just getting goosebumps just thinking of it because I mean, there's so much to work around. I mean, there's so much chaos and you need to, well fix this and that, but really professional musicians in that context, it's amazing to see what's going down, what happens, and that's a whole different thing to metal production. I mean even to this day and the producers, I mean, they had so immense overview of everything. They knew exactly what was going to happen in what way, and there isn't a note going down that hasn't been planned, and it is a beautiful thing to see when we have all these theoretical geniuses in the room that knows exactly they're talking like chord structures and arrangements. We can do this and that, or, well, if you do that, just let me note that down, and it's little, and then they go in a play perfectly. It's like a classical orchestra. It's like it's so different.

Speaker 1 (00:42:28):

Metal is very street. Yeah. No matter how good people are in metal and there are some very good people in metal, there's something about the way it's made that's just very, it's like street smarts versus book smarts almost those kinds of people you're talking about, those professional arrangers composers, they're like the brain surgeons of music.

Speaker 3 (00:42:52):

They're

Speaker 1 (00:42:53):

So educated and so able to use their education on demand basically for amazing results. It's amazing to watch.

Speaker 2 (00:43:03):

Yeah, it's a whole different thing. I'm very glad I got to see that because, well nowadays that doesn't happen as much because that whole professional side of it has pretty much gone away. I'm sad to say I don't see anyone do that at all anymore. Nothing good or bad about it. It's just like the natural progression of things, I guess mean people produce. I mean it's new styles and it's a different way of working, but it's really cool to have seen that and see the benefits of actually doing that stuff. I can apply that a lot in pre-production and as much as I can to really plan no out in ways that might not be as normal, I guess.

Speaker 1 (00:43:46):

So just out of curiosity, you talking about how METAL helped you with other styles. I'm wondering how this stuff influenced your metal production.

Speaker 2 (00:43:57):

Yeah, well, I guess that was always talking about really not the other way around. Yeah. The thing is with, I mean doing these types of styles going into metal production, I think it lets arrangement wise and creating sounds and songs basically to see how that translates through the process in a different way. I mean metal, as you say, it's more like street. It doesn't really have that type of progression. I think in production a lot. It's a different kind of way of working, so that's why I had so much use for it, I guess.

Speaker 1 (00:44:39):

And you've been able to incorporate it?

Speaker 2 (00:44:40):

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Just a way of working and being very, very definite about things and making decisions along the way. That has been really helpful when you're in a room with really great professionals and they're not afraid to make decisions. That's a thing I see today that's still like a problem. A huge problem I think is people are afraid to actually decide on stuff.

Speaker 1 (00:45:07):

Tell me more about that, because I've noticed that more in interpersonal life and also in business too. I've just noticed that it's very easy to say, I don't like this. It would be way better if this was different. It's very different to say I'm deciding that we're doing this. I actually think that a lot of people are afraid in life to just make a decision. It's amazing to me how much an advantage you can get in life just if you get comfortable with taking decisive action because so few people do.

Speaker 2 (00:45:39):

Yeah, exactly. Totally agree. I mean making decisions, it will always involve some kind of a tradeoff, and the art is balancing that trade-off in pursuit of perfection. No one really wants to decide it because there will always be, it'll always involve some kind of an imperfection, so to speak. What

Speaker 1 (00:46:01):

Do you mean by a trade-off?

Speaker 2 (00:46:03):

The trade-off is like when you make a decision, let's say you record guitars and you decide not to capture di, you just go with that. This guitar sound is really what we're going for.

Speaker 1 (00:46:16):

Ballsy.

Speaker 2 (00:46:17):

Ballsy. Yeah. I mean, yeah, and it's working really well and you decide we don't need to capture di. That will later of course involve some kind of a compromise later in the process if you can't redo the guitar song to really have that maybe 10 or 15% better quality, which you might or not be going for, but it's really, really good and being able to make that decision in the production process

Speaker 1 (00:46:51):

By making a decision You mean committing?

Speaker 2 (00:46:54):

Yeah, exactly. Deciding on, we're not going to be safe here. We're going to commit this to these sounds, to whatever is going on I think is really, really good and actually boosts creativity rather than hinders it because I see so many people are afraid of committing to things or afraid to make decisions, and they're not letting the creative side really come through because they're all worried about what's going on, how everything is going to end up.

Speaker 1 (00:47:25):

Hey everybody, if you're enjoying this podcast and you should know that it's brought to you by URM Academy, URM Academy's mission is to create the next generation of audio professionals by giving them the inspiration and information to hone their craft and build a career doing what they love. You've probably heard me talk about Nail the Mix before, and if you're a member, you already know how amazing it is. The beginning of the month, nail the mix members, get the raw multi-tracks to a new song by artists like Lama, God Angels and Airwaves. Knock loose OPEC Shuga, bring me the Horizon. Gaira asking Alexandria Machine Head and Papa Roach among many, many others over 60 at this point. Then at the end of the month, the producer who mixed it comes on and does a live streaming walkthrough of exactly how they mix the song on the album and takes your questions live on air, and these are guys like TLA Will Putney, Jenz Borin, Dan Lancaster to I Madson, Andrew Wade, and many, many more.

(00:48:25):

You'll also get access to Mix Lab, which is our collection of dozens of bite-sized mixing tutorials that cover all the basics as well as Portfolio Builder, which is a library of pro quality multi-tracks cleared for use in your portfolio, so your career will never again be held back by the quality of your source material and for those of you who really want to step up their game, we have another membership tier called URM Enhance, which includes everything I already told you about and access to our massive library of fast tracks, which are deep, super detailed courses on intermediate and advanced topics like game staging, mastering low end and so forth. It's over 500 hours of content and man, let me tell you, this stuff is just insanely detailed. Enhanced members also get access to one-on-ones, which are basically office hour sessions with us and Mix Rescue, which is where we open up one of your mixes and fix it up and talk you through exactly what we're doing at every step.

(00:49:24):

So if any of that sounds interesting to you, if you're ready to level up your mixing skills in your audio career, head over to URM Academy to find out more, want to know something interesting. One of my business partners, Joey Sturges, he's partially responsible for in the box metal recording stuff with a pod and no Gear or Amp Sims. He's one of the people who helped start that whole movement and a lot of people accused him of always working off of presets and a template and all this shit. That's completely the opposite of how he worked, and one of the biggest things that he would advocate and do is commit. It doesn't matter if you're in the box out of the box, we're not using presets. You're making an amazing sound and then you're committing it the end, and he would always make a point of committing as quickly as possible with everything so that you would be forced to live with it, and so either it's good or it's bad, and if it's bad, you have to live with it too so that next time you don't make the same bad decision.

(00:50:39):

But even completely in the box environment, new school recording where old timers would be like, it's all templates and presets not true, they were still committing that same ethos that came from the analog world of you can only do this a limited number of times, you got to commit. He was doing it in the digital world, which I think is in part one of the reasons that his recordings did better than other people's back then because he was using that ethos, which I think is super, super important. I feel like if you're not committing, you don't have confidence in your work.

Speaker 3 (00:51:20):

Exactly, yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:51:21):

If you're not coming from a place of confidence, your decision-making is going to be weird.

Speaker 2 (00:51:27):

Exactly. You can't make the perfect decision every time, but the more experience you get, the more experience you get, it will be totally fine. If you commit to something and it's not the most perfect thing in the world, if you're good enough, you will still make it work. It will still be a purpose there, and it doesn't really matter if you spend 10 extra days on some weird detail that that's not really going to matter. It's that kind of a thing that it's letting go of total perfection and just having the big picture to see what actually is going to work versus fulfilling some idea of something else. I dunno.

Speaker 1 (00:52:14):

Do you think that that's one of the roles that a great producer plays is making decisions?

Speaker 2 (00:52:19):

Yeah, nowadays more so than before because yeah, it's that fear of committing and having someone, a good producer, experienced person who knows what they're doing, and helping an artist to make decisions and committing to those decisions, I think is really, really important

Speaker 1 (00:52:38):

Because one of the things that happens when you're an inexperienced recording engineer or mixer or whatever like artists are is that fear of committing does happen, and so you can go into these weird rabbit holes of working on crazy details that don't matter, and so I think that that actually is going to be worse these days because artists know how to record themselves a little, but they don't have the experience. Some do, but mostly they don't have the experience of always knowing what to commit to and whatnot without having the right guide. I think that actually their ability to record can get in the way, like technical skill without wisdom almost.

Speaker 3 (00:53:26):

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:53:26):

That said, I still think that musicians should learn how to record.

Speaker 2 (00:53:29):

Yeah, of course. From time to time, I mean, if I'm doing mixed sessions, there can be these huge arrangements with orchestras and keys and backing vocals and whatever, and doing a mixed session often get asked the question, do we send all this stuff or what do you want us to send? And I'm always like, if you have good balances of real, really intricate parts, like a lot of stuff going on, that's up to the producer in my world to actually decide on, not the mix engineer. The mix engineer can go through all of that stuff and probably end up with exactly the same balances as the producer did because that's how it's supposed to sound musically, so I always say, if you have good balances of these key parts, don't send me 40 or 60 tracks of whatever, make stamps and just mix it down to a more manageable size, and I know Chris Lord Algae,

Speaker 1 (00:54:33):

I've heard of him.

Speaker 2 (00:54:34):

Yeah, this guy, and he's a lot into managing tracks from what I can see to just make it fit on an analog desk, and it's the same thing. It's like decide on balances and commit to that stuff because the next step in the process will be so much more simple, and if something would get messed up, it's a lot more time efficient. It's a lot easier to actually just ask for, Hey, could you just split that up into two sections maybe instead of just one? Actually, it surprises people in a way that I think is pretty weird because I think they're so not used to making that kind of decision and think that the mix will solve a lot of problems and stuff that, but really it doesn't, and it's more about just fitting everything together in a good musical way and not worry so much about all those really, really minute details that no one really cares about. I guess

Speaker 1 (00:55:34):

Also if you don't do that, say you have a huge arrangement and you don't get mixes happening and balances sent to the mixer if you don't get it in line with your vision, basically what you're saying is we don't have a vision for this. We want you to have a vision for this.

Speaker 2 (00:55:54):

Exactly, and in a way I think that's fine, but then you're not asking for a mix. In my world that's production. If you're creating everything, yeah, everything from scratch, you should have the vision for it, then you're not mixing it.

Speaker 1 (00:56:13):

Do you think the modern definition blurs the lines at all?

Speaker 2 (00:56:17):

Yeah, it does, but at the same time, I think musically it's better to have a vision, agree. If you have a plan for it, you shouldn't have to rely on someone else to come up with a vision for what you are doing. I mean, then they're the artist just as much as you are. I agree. I don't like to subscribe to that. I think that a producer is supposed to produce and a mixer is supposed to mix, and an artist is supposed to write the music and everyone is working together to create this thing. It is weird that this idea of a vision is pretty much what you say. You wait for it to happen in a way because you don't have it or what artistry is there. Then,

Speaker 1 (00:57:05):

So you know how at the beginning of the conversation we were talking about how there's a certain amount of things that you're born with. You're born a certain way with your talent, your intelligence, your aptitude to work hard. I mean, you can develop your talent, you can develop your work ethic, but whether or not you're predisposed to work your ass off, that's already in you. The ability to have vision, I feel, and I want to know your thoughts, I feel is another one of those things because the people I know that have vision, they don't try to have it. I can tell you when I have it for something, I'm not trying, it just happens When I see that something needs to to be done for a reason which will create an outcome, I'm not sitting there trying to have a vision for something. It just comes to me.

(00:58:06):

It's like a light bulb turns on, and the people I know, artists, entrepreneurs, whatever, who have a vision for things, I don't feel like they're trying either. They're just gifted with that. That's one of their talents is they have that, and I've noticed that people who don't, and it's fine if you don't, you should find someone who does and work with them, but people who don't, I've tried to coach them into it and it doesn't really work. It's almost because their brain isn't wired that way. Their brain is wired for other things. I'm just curious what your thoughts are on that, because what I'm hearing is that, and my understanding is that there's some bands who they want to be in a band. They love playing music, but they just don't have that chip in their head, the vision chip, and so you need to provide it for them. I'm wondering if you think that it's something that you're born with or something you have to try to do.

Speaker 2 (00:59:07):

I agree with everything that you said. All I can say is yes, that's my experience as well. Really gifted really great artists have a vision, and it's nothing you have to force try and come up with. Yeah, that's a true thing to me as an artist, to not have a vision. My question is like, are you an artist?

Speaker 1 (00:59:33):

Maybe you're more of a craftsman.

Speaker 2 (00:59:34):

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. When

Speaker 1 (00:59:36):

I was at Berkeley, I remember Eddie Kramer, the producer came to give a masterclass. This was before I was studying production. I just heard the guy that did Led Zeppelin and Jimi Hendrix is going to be talking to 20 production students and friends was roommates with one of 'em, and he just invited me, and so I went and listened to him talk and asked him a question, what was different between people like Jimmy Page and Jimi Hendrix than other people you've worked with who didn't become legends, any of these legendary people you worked with, what set them apart? Because obviously Jimmy Page and Jimmy Hendrix are very different from each other, but they had to have something in common that sets them apart. There's a reason they became legends, and what he said was their vision was miles beyond everybody else. While most artists could see 10 feet in front of them, they could see several football fields down into the future. They just had vision like nobody else, and he said that's what set them apart.

Speaker 2 (01:00:42):

Absolutely. Yeah, yeah,

Speaker 1 (01:00:43):

But I bet you they didn't try.

Speaker 2 (01:00:45):

Yeah, exactly. I bet they even try. They just had it. My perfect world is that I work with artists that have great vision, and my thing would be to just help them do that, that I don't want to have to invent their vision because that's where I'm having trouble with the whole thing. Great vision creates great artists in a way. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:01:12):

So how would you get into a position where you can work with only artists who have a great vision? What do you think it takes to get to that point? Because a great goal, but I don't think that many people are even close to that, but there's two goals. I've noticed that lots of producers and mixers have goal one, work with great artists that have great vision. Goal two, be able to choose who you work with. I think those are kind of universal producer goals, mixer, whatever, audio people, they're both very, very difficult to achieve. What do you think it takes to get to a point where those are the artists that you're working with? You find yourself in a situation where the anomaly is the artist with no vision?

Speaker 2 (01:02:03):

Yeah. I think the way to get there is, I mean, I've been quite lucky over the years to actually have been working with artists that have a real, really strong vision of what they want to do, and at the same time, those are the most successful projects and I think that's not a coincidence at all. I think to get to that point, you have to have a lot of experience, be really, really good and work your ass off to get to the point where you can actually help that type of artist be what they want to be. And that just takes going through all this shit for a decade at least. I mean, to find that because you don't automatically end up there or even be lucky to end up there. You have to do the work to see, to find those things. And in a way, I think that you just end up working with the right people when you have the right experience and everything is there. You are working with the people that have the same experience as you in a way most of the time. I mean,

Speaker 1 (01:03:07):

You're evenly matched.

Speaker 2 (01:03:08):

Exactly. You're evenly matched and that's what's going to happen most of the time. If you find yourself not working with artists that have that artistry or that vision, that means I think a lot that you are not really there yet. I mean, you're not as good yet as you would need to be, and so just work away.

Speaker 1 (01:03:31):

That's kind of the same idea that the person who you attract is a reflection of where you're at in life, which I really do believe. You can learn a lot about somebody by who they're married to or who they're dating. Somebody in the URM group the other day posted about how do you get more test mixes? Should I just start emailing managers? And it's like, no, they'll come to you and it's the same idea. They're going to come to people who are appropriate for their level. Why would they just go to someone? Why would some famous band like a DMU Borg gear or someone like that who has this massive track record, super successful records worked with so many of the best people, just send some guy who only works with local bands a test mix. Why they wouldn't do it? It doesn't make sense. It

Speaker 2 (01:04:26):

Doesn't make

Speaker 1 (01:04:27):

Any sense. It's absurd if you think about it.

Speaker 2 (01:04:29):

I mean, me and David Castio good friend is, I mean, we discuss this a lot. Really.

Speaker 1 (01:04:36):

I like David.

Speaker 2 (01:04:37):

Yeah, yeah. He's great. And we come to the conclusion, if you decide that you want charge like 50 bucks to make, do a mix, then you're going to attract the people that are willing to pay 50 bucks for a mix.

Speaker 1 (01:04:53):

Exactly. And that's not Diab Borg gear.

Speaker 2 (01:04:55):

Exactly. That's not Diab Borg gear. And we charge a lot more than that, so we don't see a lot of bad projects, I guess. And that's just a natural progression. I mean, I also started out doing a lot of tests and free projects and whatever, but at some point it gets to that where you see talented people actually they want to pay because they see that it's worth it. That's just a natural progression. As you work with better and more talent and they're successful, they put a lot of worth in having a good process and that's going to just cost them money and they're willing to spend that money, it's pretty easy.

Speaker 1 (01:05:38):

They're not going to spend it on somebody. They don't have the confidence in number one. Number two, if you are only good enough to be working with $50 bands and you try to charge a thousand dollars for a mix or 2000 for a mix, you're not going to get any clients. That's not going to work. You can't just charge what the big boys and big girls charge because you want to. It's a natural progression. I've always said that the market determines your worth. How much should I charge? How much should I charge? It's a question that comes up all the time. The way that I've answered is look at, I mean, there's a few ways that you can try to guess, but the real answer is the market tells you what you're worth. And so look at people in your area that are comparable. If there's any who charges the most, who charges the least, there's your range. Put yourself somewhere in there. Pick a price if people pay it, if you book the shit out of your studio at that price, you can charge a little more. If nobody's coming at that price charge less the end. It's that simple.

Speaker 2 (01:06:49):

The end. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:06:51):

Yeah. There's nothing more to it.

Speaker 2 (01:06:53):

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:06:55):

People won't pay you if they don't think you're worth it, and if they do think you're worth it, they'll pay a shitload of money.

Speaker 2 (01:07:01):

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:07:02):

If they have a shitload of money to pay

Speaker 2 (01:07:04):

And they will pay Ted Jensen 5,000 euros to add one DB of low end to a record, because

Speaker 1 (01:07:10):

That's what it was.

Speaker 2 (01:07:11):

Exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:07:12):

Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:07:13):

And it's worth it because,

Speaker 1 (01:07:15):

And it was worth it. I was going to say, I didn't feel like I was being overcharged either. I mean, it was roadrunner's money, but I don't feel like that was an inappropriate price. Sounded fucking awesome.

Speaker 2 (01:07:29):

Yeah, exactly. I mean, you're paying for the experience. You're not paying for the change. If you think that, oh, after we spend this amount of money, it's going to change this much. That's not the thing that you're paying for. You're paying for someone to do just enough to just do the thing that's required to really make it a professional product.

Speaker 1 (01:07:54):

Yeah. I've noticed a lot of people getting frustrated because they'll get approached by people to record or mix, and then they'll shoot them a price and the person will be like, that's a crazy price. I was hoping to pay $70 for an entire album mix or something crazy. They'll get mad about that. I'm thinking, I understand that you're frustrated, but you're pointing the frustration in the wrong direction. You shouldn't be pointing it at the person who wanted the $70 mix. They're a $70 artist. That's who they are. You don't fault them for not being a top tier artist. They're just not. However, what that says is that low tier artists see you as an option, which means that probably high tier and mid-tier artists, and that means you need to get better.

Speaker 2 (01:08:45):

Exactly.

Speaker 3 (01:08:46):

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:08:46):

Yeah. So point that frustration at yourself.

Speaker 2 (01:08:50):

Exactly. Yeah. There's no one else's fault.

Speaker 1 (01:08:56):

No, definitely not. So speaking of pointing frustration at yourself, I think one of the reasons that people don't do it is they don't like to be uncomfortable. The truth is uncomfortable a lot, but you actually were saying that you enjoy being uncomfortable, especially in a studio session, helps keep you on your toes. I'm wondering if you could elaborate on that, maybe in light of the new soil work or something. Were there any moments where that made you feel uncomfortable?

Speaker 2 (01:09:23):

Well, a soil work session is always uncomfortable. Why? No, it's so much fun because it goes, all the rules go out the door. So that makes it uncomfortable because you can't really rely on usual stuff,

Speaker 1 (01:09:40):

Not uncomfortable in a personal way, but out of your comfort zone. Out

Speaker 2 (01:09:45):

Of your comfort zone. Yes. And I mean, it's so much fun to be challenged like that. I mean, basically I come from a world where I feel very comfortable in, alright, let's do this session and let's set that up and let's record that and let's go ahead and do that. And yeah, that's very nice. Cool, and let's do that. But with Soilwork, everything happens all the time and everyone has ideas of how things should turn out, and you don't have time to do everything in a very easy going pace. Everything is chaotic. And me being kind of perfectionist, that challenges me in a very good way because I really need to focus on the aesthetic of what's going on and just have that end up as great as possible, and that can really make things weird for me, but challenging and very, very good. So with soul work, when we're doing guitar sounds, David plays a lot of the guitarist. I mean, he just wants a different song for each song, and I love that. It's like, whoa, that's awesome. So we have all these amps set up and just combine things and let's try this on this riff and this on that riff. And that's very unorthodox. Usually it's like, yeah, we use this amp and that cab on this.

Speaker 1 (01:11:10):

This is the rhythm tone for the whole album.

Speaker 2 (01:11:12):

Yes. And we record 16 or 17 songs with all different rhythm tones and that's crazy, but it's so much fun.

Speaker 1 (01:11:20):

That's intense.

Speaker 2 (01:11:21):

And I never used the di.

Speaker 1 (01:11:24):

That's old school.

Speaker 2 (01:11:26):

Yeah,

Speaker 1 (01:11:26):

That's like some Metallica nine months on an album stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:11:32):

Yeah, it is.

Speaker 1 (01:11:33):

So was every song started from scratch in all elements

Speaker 2 (01:11:38):

On a solo work production? Basically what happens is, well, we set up all the drums and I mean we start like that. All the songs have been worked on or ready to just be recorded in the studio. So we start with that and then we have everything set up as bastion. It's like he might play a few songs and it's like, yeah, I'm tired now. Just go ahead with everything else. And then we start creating, we might be doing guitars, we might be doing some weird overdubs to demo tracks and go in between everything and just be creative. So everything starts with the drums, basically just have one solid building block and then anything can happen on top of that for the longest time.

Speaker 1 (01:12:22):

So you said you set everything up, so basically you're ready to go with anything at any time,

Speaker 2 (01:12:29):

With anything at any time, at any point in time during the 24 hours. I mean, we can do violin, cello, piano stuff, guitars, I mean whatever. Everything is set up and we go in between. I don't even have the gear to pull that off, so I have to take photos and take notes and borrow mics from wherever and just set that up in a few minutes and go back and forth between anything and it's totally chaotic. So yeah, it's very inspiring as well.

Speaker 1 (01:13:00):

What is it about them that makes it that way?

Speaker 2 (01:13:04):

It's just like how they write songs and how they don't want to get locked into the metal formula. I mean, they're really doing extravagant stuff today. I think it really goes out of the box from what you'd expect. And they like it that way. They really want to be in that place where it's not. Yeah, I mean you have to have a reaction to it, even though you might hate it or you might love it, but you're still going to react to it. I mean, it's so easy to hear something like, oh, that's good. And then it's like, oh, that's just as great as everything else. And it's over with. Yes. They really want to challenge everything that's going on with their style and what everyone else are doing.

Speaker 1 (01:13:49):

Earlier you said that you find bands that you're appropriately matched to. Those are the best relationships. And I want to point out that this is a perfect example of what you're talking about because not everybody would be cool as a producer working like that. I know a lot of producers who are also awesome who that would drive them nuts, and that's just not how they work. It doesn't matter how good they are, that would just not be a good match, but you're willing to, you like doing that. They have this interesting style of creating and you're into it. And so it's not just all your experience and skill, it's also the fact that personality wise, you're suited for working with them and their vision for how things work. And I'm guessing you don't have to try to be that kind of person. That's who you are, right?

Speaker 2 (01:14:46):

Yeah. It's just a natural thing. And I mean, we have so much fun, of course, doing a soul work session and everyone is really into that process and it's like the perfect balance of people. It's just working out so well and we have a lot of fun and great music is coming out of it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:15:07):

Awesome. Well, we have a few questions here from listeners wondering if you don't mind me asking a few?

Speaker 2 (01:15:14):

Yeah, of course.

Speaker 1 (01:15:15):

Okay, so Jared de was wondering, what's your approach to starting a mix and how do you decide what will sit, wear kick above the base or base above the kick? I just want to say that whatever you say, this is the kind of thing that's better done on video. I'm curious to what your thoughts are.

Speaker 2 (01:15:36):

Yeah. Well, I usually go with this just to get me started actually. I kind of have this forward going back thing. I start with the main elements that's going to be just in front of the, especially if I don't know the project, I don't know what to expect really. I just go with the main stuff that I know pretty much is going to be there, like kick snare vocals, then probably the bass and just make everything happen around it to get rough. And for me, especially kick and bass stuff is for me, the kick always has to be hard hitting and will always be above the base. I never understood having the bass below the kick just sound unnatural to me always. I've never really got into that, but that's how I start a mix just going front to back really quickly to get a rough, and then I just start fine tuning and doing whatever I need to do.

Speaker 1 (01:16:37):

So get it sounding like a song as quickly as possible.

Speaker 2 (01:16:40):

Yeah. With the few elements that I pretty much know are going to be there. So I end up with a rough of the song where I have the front, like the most important elements there, and then I go from there basically. Yeah, just to have it sound like a song and then just break it down, break it down. I mean, I always work with everything on for the most part. I never go into solo and check out stuff more than I'm just creating the rough just to get an idea of what's there. But when I have the song pretty much, alright, now it sounds like a song to me, then I just work with everything on and very seldom go into specific solo stuff and things like that.

Speaker 1 (01:17:21):

Makes sense. Question from Scott Bennett. What do you think is a good balance between working to improve your shortcomings versus only focusing on your strengths and delegating the other stuff out? For instance, there's a lot of producers who are not the best engineers, right? This is an older school thing, but it's just, for instance, they're not the best engineers. So they'd hire an engineer and be there in the room so that they can produce and the other person operates pro tools at the speed of light basically. And the producer is not that great at pro Tools or you're going to track guitars and the guitars need to be set up, but you're not that great at setting them up. So hire a guitar tech to come in and set up all the guitars. Just stuff like that that I'm thinking, what am I not an expert in? I was not an expert at tuning drums. I could do it, but I wasn't amazing at it. So I would hire a drum tech on my sessions to come and get them tuned. Great. Rather than working super hard to become amazing at tuning drums, I hired someone that was super amazing at tuning drums to tune them on my drum sessions.

Speaker 2 (01:18:32):

My point of view is that you should be able to do, especially in these days, you should be able to do a full production by yourself without having the need to outsource anything. So you need to be good at all aspects to the point where it doesn't hinders you in the way you create any recording production. And from that point on, there will always be someone better that you could hire to do certain stuff. And when you find those people and you know that, alright, this guy can edit drums in half the time that I can do it, and as you say, this guy is much better at tuning drums and I tune drums three times a year, why should I even bother getting better at it? I spend all that time when I can just call someone and it is striking that balance, but at the same time, you just have to be so good at everything so that you can do everything by yourself. Yes. So that you can do the process, go through it every time and not have it hinder the production in a way.

Speaker 1 (01:19:34):

I agree. Because these things I was talking about are a luxury. You can't always afford a drum tech on every session. I think most producers are willing to negotiate budget, for instance, whatever. There's a band you really want to work with who's really awesome, but they're just not that big. There's some bands like that who they've been around for a while, but they're just not that big, and so they might not have the most amazing budget in the world, but you want to do the record and there's certain luxuries you can't take, so what are you going to do? Not do a great job just because you can't hire the drum tech.

Speaker 2 (01:20:09):

No, exactly. Yes. So that's the thing. When you hire someone to do some part of production, if you don't know how to do that part, you can't possibly hire someone else to do it because you don't know if that's a good job, if they're doing a good job or not. It's very important that everything in the production process, so you can hire someone else effectively to do something in the process.

Speaker 1 (01:20:37):

So become an expert in production

Speaker 2 (01:20:39):

And

Speaker 1 (01:20:39):

Then hire specialists as needed.

Speaker 3 (01:20:41):

Exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:20:42):

I agree with that. Completely agree. When I tell people that I would hire the drum tech or the guitar tech or whatever, I still think that every producer should know the basics of setting up a guitar.

(01:20:54):

The guitar techs I would bring in were fucking amazing at it, so way better than me. So I'd bring them in because it would be that much better, but that doesn't mean that I couldn't do it. I could usually do it better than the guys in the band. So if needed, I'd do it. But if we had the budget for it, why not bring someone in who's fucking excellent? But I still learned how to do it on a shitty guitar that I was happy to break so that I could if I needed to, because there's not always going to be the budget or B, the time.

Speaker 3 (01:21:27):

Exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:21:28):

You can't let things suffer of that.

Speaker 2 (01:21:29):

Going back to what we started to talk about mastering, if you know how to create the good master, you don't have to be an expert at it. Just know what you need to go through to make it work that's easier for you to give it to someone else to master, since you'll have a whole different set of expectations for what it's going to be like and you can compare to what you are doing and see if it's worth it. I mean, you have to become an expert in all stages, and even if you don't have the time to become the best at everything, you need to have a foundation for everything that you can do it to a certain point.

Speaker 1 (01:22:12):

I even think you should have a foundation in different musical instruments.

Speaker 2 (01:22:15):

Absolutely. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:22:16):

For instance, I learned drums for six months, not I wanted to become a drummer, but I wanted to be able to communicate with drummers better and just understand what they did.

Speaker 3 (01:22:26):

Exactly. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:22:27):

Those things go a really, really long way.

Speaker 2 (01:22:31):

All of that helps. Even knowing musical theory and all of that stuff can help a lot in just the communication part. And again, you don't need to be an expert, you just need to know you can communicate in a good way.

Speaker 1 (01:22:46):

Well, being an expert at production doesn't mean being an expert at every one of those little things. Being an expert at production doesn't mean that you're an expert guitar player and an expert drummer and an expert singer and an expert keyboard player. But it does mean that you know enough about each one of those things so that you can properly communicate with someone who does those things so you can get the best out of them. And you know what they can sound like, what they can't sound like and how they work in the first place. You need to know enough for that. And by knowing all those different things, that gets you closer to being an expert. It, there's a lot of things that maybe you don't need to be a surgeon level on, but you still need a good basic knowledge of all those things, in my opinion.

Speaker 2 (01:23:32):

Yeah, exactly. If you see that you're having trouble with anything, if you feel uncomfortable in the production process doing anything, I'd say you need to put some more work into it to get your skill level up.

Speaker 1 (01:23:46):

The time to, for instance, hire a drum editor is not when you don't know how to do it. It's when you've done it so much that you've done it so much and so well, you've come to a point in your productions where it drives you crazy, or because of the quality of work that you've done, you've gotten to a point where you can't afford it and it saves you a bunch of time.

Speaker 3 (01:24:14):

You

Speaker 1 (01:24:14):

Don't do it because you suck at it and you want someone to save. You do it because you worked to a point where you can hire out and it just helps a workflow. That was already good, in my opinion.

Speaker 2 (01:24:29):

Yeah. I mean, that's always what happens here in production. I mean, when we're recording drums, as soon as we're done, I just send it out to my assistant and he just edits everything while we're doing something else. And so it's always a good workflow. So yeah, the process doesn't get hindered by, well, we just need to do that for a few hours or a couple of days. And it's always a creative workflow,

Speaker 1 (01:24:52):

But I'm sure that you have how you like to hear edited drums, and you had to communicate that to your assistant.

Speaker 2 (01:24:59):

Yeah, exactly. So you need to know how to edit drums so you have Yeah, yeah,

Speaker 1 (01:25:03):

Yeah. Easy. Yeah. It's amazing to me how people seem to think that something like that is lining things up, which it totally isn't. I mean, there's that part of it, but it's more about understanding music and rhythm and being able to hear properly. So actually, I actually feel like hiring an editor to be a good editor who gets hired by somebody else, you actually have to be a pretty sophisticated listener

Speaker 3 (01:25:31):

In

Speaker 1 (01:25:31):

Order to be like someone who gets hired. There's a few editors out there who get hired by a lot of really good producers, and these guys are really, really good, really good editors. But the thing is they're really good musicians too, and really good engineers, and they have very sophisticated tastes, and that's part of why they're good editors, and that's why they can work with different producers is some producers want it a hundred percent robotic. Some people want it to sway a little, some people like it behind the beat, somebody wants it 90% or tight hands, but the feet need to be whatever for them to understand all these things. They have to be a sophisticated listener.

Speaker 2 (01:26:14):

Absolutely. I mean, just vocal editing, I mean, I think that's harder than drums because I mean, most people, yeah, drums, you have a grid, and even though it's not all about that, it's still like a good reference. But for vocals, that's different. I mean, of course, I mean, clean pitch is clean pitch, but at the same time, there's a lot of instances where you don't want it to be. Right. On that note, you have to listen in context with stuff and see what's actually going to work. And same thing with drums, but vocals, it's, I think that's next level actually. I think that's harder for people to get into than drums

Speaker 1 (01:26:52):

Just because it requires you to understand not just pitch, but emotion.

Speaker 2 (01:26:59):

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. I think that's actually quite funny because yeah, it's so easy to edit things into a robotic state where it's technically perfect, but it lacks the emotion. And with vocals that can be quite, I mean, you have to understand the artist and you have to understand the whole thing, and yeah, that's harder for people. I think

Speaker 1 (01:27:25):

There's much wider of a range for what's acceptable with vocals. However, what's interesting about that wide range is that there's usually only one thing that's right for a certain artist. So finding that thing and understanding that thing, that is a different level of sophistication. It's not just tuning notes

Speaker 2 (01:27:45):

Exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:27:46):

To a pitch.

Speaker 2 (01:27:46):

Yeah,

Speaker 1 (01:27:47):

That's part of it, but definitely not all of it.

Speaker 2 (01:27:49):

No, not the complete truth. Not at all. Yeah. Well,

Speaker 1 (01:27:52):

Pl, it's been a pleasure talking to you. I think this is a good place to end the podcast. I want to thank you for coming on. It's been a pleasure. Thanks a lot. Okay, then another URM podcast episode in the bag. Please remember to share our episodes with your friends, as well as post them to your Facebook, Instagram, or any social media you use. Please tag me at a ar levy URM audio, and of course, please tag my guests as well. Till next time, happy mixing. You've been listening to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast. To ask us questions, make suggestions and interact, visit URM Academy and press the podcast link today.