Dan Sugarman: Writing for Ice Nine Kills, Detaching Your Ego, and Overcoming Anxiety

Eyal Levi (00:00:00):

Welcome to the

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Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast, and now your host, AAL Levy. Welcome to the URM Podcast. Thank you so much for being here. It's crazy to think that we're now on our fifth year, but it's true, and it's only because of you, the listeners. And if you'd like to see us stick around for another five years, there are a few simple things that you can do that would really, really help us out, and I would be endlessly appreciative. Number one, share our episodes with your friends. If you get something out of these episodes, I'm sure they will too. So please share us with your friends. Number two, post our episodes on your Facebook and Instagram and tag me and our guests too. My Instagram is at al Levy urm audio. And let me just let you know that we love seeing ourselves tagged in these posts. Who knows, we might even respond.

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And number three, leave us reviews and five stars please anywhere you can. We especially love iTunes reviews. Once again, I want to thank you all for the years and years of loyalty. I just want you to know that we will never, ever charge you for this podcast, and I will always work as hard as possible to improve the episodes in every single way possible. All I ask in return is a share host and a tag. Now, let's get on with it. Hello everybody. Welcome to the URM podcast. I'm going to keep this intro short because it's a long episode, but my guest today is Dan Sugarman, who plays Guitar for Ice Nine Kills. He's also a very established guitar educator as well as a solo artist, and he was in that band. His blood runs black. He's done a ton of shit. Anyways, I introduce you to Dan Sugarman. Hi Dan. How are you doing?

Dan Sugarman (00:01:48):

I'm doing great, man. How are you doing Al Good.

Eyal Levi (00:01:49):

Welcome to the URM Podcast.

Dan Sugarman (00:01:52):

The pleasure to be here. Dude, I've been a huge fan of what you guys have been doing for what feels like forever. How long have you guys been a thing at this point? It's been a few years. It's been more than a few years.

Eyal Levi (00:02:02):

Yeah, it's been more than a few years. It's actually, well, do you count? When I was doing URM stuff before it became URM,

Dan Sugarman (00:02:11):

That's what I was about to say. I was literally about to mention stumbling on this whole, I actually reached out to you on Instagram years ago. I was looking to see if the message was still there, but somehow it vanished. But I remember seeing that online. I forget where you announced it. It might've been through metal injection. Is that where you first announced that?

Eyal Levi (00:02:28):

The bootcamps, right?

Dan Sugarman (00:02:29):

Yeah. Yeah, man.

Eyal Levi (00:02:30):

Yeah, that was 2014.

Dan Sugarman (00:02:32):

Before that I was a huge fan of your articles on Metal Sucks, not Metal injection. Metal Sucks.

Eyal Levi (00:02:37):

Metal sucks.

Dan Sugarman (00:02:37):

Yeah, man. So I've been following what you've been doing for while You go back a while. Oh yeah, dude, I'm a weirdo. I also love doth, so I'm going to just back off the fanboy now. I'm

Eyal Levi (00:02:46):

Sorry. Sorry. You pick a better band.

Dan Sugarman (00:02:52):

I tried, man.

Eyal Levi (00:02:53):

So I mean, I want to congratulate you, by the way, for how well everything is going. I mean, it's pretty damn cool because I've been friends with Maori for a really long time, and it's good to see him scoring some big ass wins, and it's good to see a band that actually worked for it for a really long time. Prospering.

Dan Sugarman (00:03:19):

Yeah, man, it's really incredible to see the turn of events that's happened for this band. And I have to say this too, as an outsider, man, I've been in the band for a year and a half at this point. It's very, very interesting. So for me, I joined the band right after Silver Screen came out. The guitar player I replaced had already distanced himself, and my job was to sort of come in and fill that role. But fact of the matter is, man, is that the groundwork had been done before me, and I'm so lucky and blessed to be in a band that's done the same amount of work that I would've done or my band.

Eyal Levi (00:03:52):

Maybe that's why it worked out for you guys.

Dan Sugarman (00:03:55):

Absolutely. Yeah. You don't get to be in the room with these people, I guess, if you're not having done the work to qualify yourself. So I feel like I did. We both know the tour Grind in a van 15 seater living off of Chipotle and McDonald's and shit. That was the life for me for quite a while. So really, I don't want to use the word lucky, honored, blessed, but all those fricking words to have the opportunity to be in a band like this, the team is fucking on it, dude.

Eyal Levi (00:04:23):

Did you feel ever before you got in the band that your ambition kind without talking shit kind of overmatched people you were around

Dan Sugarman (00:04:38):

Every fucking instance I've ever been in? Dude,

Eyal Levi (00:04:40):

It's a tough thing. It

Dan Sugarman (00:04:42):

It is. It's a very tough thing. And I actually was speaking with my girlfriend before this. I was like, I know IL's going to ask me stuff that's going to probe these thoughts that I have, and then I'm going to have to filter it. But yeah, man, there's a lot. I think the people that tend to get to certain levels kind of have these similarities. And that's not to say I'm at any level of any of the people that I look up to, but I absolutely share this quality with feeling like I tend to pull the weight. I tend to have to step up to cover people's ass. I tend to play mom and dad. I tend to do the nanny housework, proverb, the metaphorical shit within the band. It's all a matter of just finally being in a band where everyone pulls their weight, goes above and beyond, under promises, over delivers. It's like the ultimate dream, man. I'm so stoked.

Eyal Levi (00:05:32):

It's kind of a symptom of music. The music industry, it's such a unprofessional industry that people just doing their job is amazing. Whereas in a lot of other fields that people just did, people just doing their jobs means they don't get fired. But in music it's like, wow, they're actually responsible humans. It's unbelievable. But that said, was it a shock to the system to get into a situation where it's more like you can work together rather than be frustrated all the time?

Dan Sugarman (00:06:05):

I mean, yeah, dude. Mean there's no point in me saying, I don't want to say my old band names, but if you know me, the bands I've been in, so it doesn't really matter. But my previous band that I was in,

Eyal Levi (00:06:15):

Well, I felt that way about my old projects too, so it's cool.

Dan Sugarman (00:06:18):

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it is what it is, man. We're all musicians. That's why they don't

Eyal Levi (00:06:22):

Like me.

Dan Sugarman (00:06:25):

Yeah, man. I mean, being in my old band as Butter Runs black was a very different thing, man.

Eyal Levi (00:06:30):

I didn't realize you were in that band, by the way, until started doing research for this episode, so we toured with you guys.

Dan Sugarman (00:06:37):

Oh, dude, you must've toured with me right before I joined. I joined in oh nine. Did you do?

Eyal Levi (00:06:43):

Oh, this was oh seven Summer Slaughter.

Dan Sugarman (00:06:45):

That makes sense. Yeah. I joined in oh nine. So you toured with, was Ernie and Sal on the tour? Was that different guitar players at the time?

Eyal Levi (00:06:52):

I cannot help you with that information.

Dan Sugarman (00:06:53):

Yeah, who knows, dude who cares. Band was a joke. The fact of the matter is Man is being in that band was incredible for me. I grew up in that scene around that area, listening to that band and going to those shows. So being in the position to join that band was really awesome. And there's something that I read recently about when people jump through hoops to unquote be in a room, you're much more willing to look past the negatives and look at it like it's just normal. But if you were just placed in a room of assholes, you'd be much more likely to be distanced yourself. But because I worked to be in as Borons Black, there was a Stockholm Syndrome element to it, to a certain degree. I put my fucking head down, did my work, showed up, did everything I was supposed to do and more with a lot of stuff going on around me interpersonally, business wise, musically that I just wasn't on board with and something that I've spoken about in the past that I think is really, really valuable for anyone who's really just goal oriented or even a musician, the concept of taking inventory on your goals and seeing if, have you in fact reached them?

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Should you maybe lay out some other things for you to work on? What I did for years was the second I joined as Butter Runs Black, which was my dream to be in an internationally touring band. The second I joined, I was, I guess content and contentment, the Death of Progression, as they say. So I just, for eight and a half years, put my head down in a situation I was unhappy with going in a direction I didn't want to go in

Eyal Levi (00:08:25):

Just because it was on the surface.

Dan Sugarman (00:08:28):

Yes,

Eyal Levi (00:08:28):

Exactly what you said you were going for.

Dan Sugarman (00:08:31):

Exactly. And the whole premise of me having done the work to get there kind of put blind folders on me. So I didn't really see all the shit I didn't want to, or I wasn't processing it. I certainly saw it, but I didn't process it and make judgments and movement off of it. But just the work alone that goes into being in those types of bands, which is majority of bands, honestly, I think puts you in a situation where you're not super aware of being surrounded by people who aren't doing the work that you want to be doing. I think there's a lot of just situations or opportunities happening that without asking yourself, am I happy here? Is there more that I want? What else can I be doing? You sort of just get stuck. So that was me for eight years, dude. I was just,

Eyal Levi (00:09:12):

Well, think about what would happen if everybody started asking those questions. And by the way, I encourage people to ask those questions, but if more people ask those questions, there'd be way less bands because people would be like, whoa, I'm in a terrible situation. This actually sucks. This is not what I signed up for.

Dan Sugarman (00:09:30):

That could be good for guys like us.

Eyal Levi (00:09:32):

Yeah, it was good for me.

Dan Sugarman (00:09:34):

Yeah, yeah. Then it sort of weeds out the weakness, right? You're not going to be in the band with a musician you don't really want to be in, except those people do find ways to fake their way in. I find. Do you feel me on that a little bit?

Eyal Levi (00:09:47):

Yeah. So I want it out of my band. By 2008, we didn't end until the end of 2010, but 2008, and I didn't tell them if they ever hear this, they're going to be surprised. They probably thought that they wanted out first, and I know they want it out, but it must've been 2007 or oh eight where I was like, yeah, alright, this is not going to last that much longer. But then it just did because nothing cooler came along, and I wanted out of my studio situation by the end of 2011. That didn't end until 2014. But yeah, I haven't wanted out of this one though. I'm cool with URM,

Dan Sugarman (00:10:26):

Dude. I am like you are kind of in my mind the pinnacle, ultimate modern day musician, producer, businessman. I really revere what you do,

Eyal Levi (00:10:39):

Musician, ex producer.

Dan Sugarman (00:10:41):

I still consider you to be the things, man. I mean, you might not put that label on your titles, but the shit you've done is monumental, man.

Eyal Levi (00:10:49):

Well, I appreciate it. I just don't consider it current. I get that. I think it's cheesy to take stuff from 10 years ago and use that as how you bill yourself in the current day.

Dan Sugarman (00:11:02):

So

Eyal Levi (00:11:03):

I appreciate it. I am flattered and I am proud of that stuff, but it's 10 years old, so I can't call that what I do now. I think it's lame to me because when I talk to people who are doing it now, yeah, we can connect on that. We've been through a lot of the same stuff, but I don't want to pretend like I'm making music now.

Dan Sugarman (00:11:29):

I should rephrase the statement that I said. It's the fact that you've gone through those things and you've managed to turn it into something so huge, stable and monumental as far as the community aspect and the education and the kind of forwarding the mentality behind the home music creator. I don't know, man. There's something that I find very inspiring about someone like yourself who's had,

Eyal Levi (00:11:55):

I appreciate that.

Dan Sugarman (00:11:56):

Multiple types of careers in the things that I'm obsessed with and manage to invent your own or forge your own path and get people to go down the path with you. It's huge for me, man.

Eyal Levi (00:12:07):

Well, the thing is that I realized was that I don't fit into anybody else's world. So if I don't create my own, it's just going to be fucking misery forever. Absolutely. I didn't feel like I really had a spot in my own band, constantly clashing with them, and they're great musicians, but they kind of hated me, and we were in completely different places. Definitely clashed at the studio I went to after that, have clashed with people my entire life, actually up until kind of now where it kind of just one day it dawned on me that I need to just do something. That's where I'm spearheading it and not either under somebody or compromising at all, and just letting it be like my vision all the way through. And it took me a while to not feel like a cocky egomaniac doing that.

Dan Sugarman (00:13:00):

Yeah, absolutely.

Eyal Levi (00:13:01):

But once I just kind of gave in to my nature, things started to work out, and I got happier.

New Speaker (00:13:08):

Dude,

Eyal Levi (00:13:09):

If you are an egomaniac type or an alpha type or visionary type or whatever it is, if you don't follow that, you're going to have a really hard life, I think.

Dan Sugarman (00:13:21):

Absolutely. Absolutely. Man. That's honestly been the path that I've been on my band before as Blood Runs Black was this band called Fallen Figure, which was my baby. I wrote the entire record, I funded it all, got all the artwork, wrote all the lyrics, all this shit. 2008 ish, Brian Slagel reaches out to us on MySpace, wants to sign us, and we're being managed by this dude named Lech, who was the drummer of his blood, runs Black and Lech, sabotaged the deal, and then asked me to join his blood runs black with him.

Eyal Levi (00:13:52):

What do you mean by sabotage the deal? And the reason I'm asking is because when Doth got signed, there were bands in Atlanta who were also talking to Roadrunner. There was another local band, and we were talking to Mon, they were talking to Mike Gitter and at the same exact time, and we got a deal and they didn't. And they went around saying that we stole their record deal, which is bullshit. You can't steal somebody's record deal. But what I'm wondering is what does it actually look like to have a record deal sabotaged

Dan Sugarman (00:14:24):

In my unprofessional, completely emotional opinion, which is really valid for anyone listening I suspect. And also Lech is my boy. We have been in bands for over a decade, no negativity there at all. But we had gotten a deal from Slagel, and then we started dealing with Mike Fay. I believe Fay was his name.

Eyal Levi (00:14:46):

Yes, Mike Fay.

Dan Sugarman (00:14:47):

We went back and forth. We got it from a three record deal to a two record deal, and then we wanted to do another round of negotiations, and then we almost got what we wanted, and then we went to Ian, Ian Friedman, RIP Friedman. Wait,

Eyal Levi (00:15:03):

What? He passed away two years ago? Yeah. Oh,

Dan Sugarman (00:15:05):

No, he was

Eyal Levi (00:15:06):

With my lawyer too.

Dan Sugarman (00:15:07):

Oh, no, I had that. Yeah, he was my lawyer for years. I haven't spoken to him for years, but wow.

Eyal Levi (00:15:13):

Now you know why.

Dan Sugarman (00:15:14):

Yeah, it's because he's dead. Fuck. Holy shit.

Eyal Levi (00:15:18):

He hated labels.

Dan Sugarman (00:15:20):

Yes, he did. We

Eyal Levi (00:15:20):

Remember that about him. Yep. He was fucking brutal with labels. Oh God. Hilarious.

Dan Sugarman (00:15:25):

So we Lech brought us into Ian for this final negotiation. This was the third round of negotiations, and Ian was just redlining a bunch of shit, and metal blade just pulled the deal, and then white chap got signed. So I feel like I could say White chap got the deal. We almost got, but it's hilariously the same thing that you just said. No such thing.

Eyal Levi (00:15:47):

I bet you if you asked Ley or Slagel, they'd laugh if you said that.

Dan Sugarman (00:15:52):

Of course, of course.

Eyal Levi (00:15:54):

Because White Chapel got their own deal.

Dan Sugarman (00:15:55):

Of course they did.

Eyal Levi (00:15:56):

But about Ian, there was a time period when we were negotiating with Century Media, and he was doing that stuff where I had to tell him to back off because I felt like, you're right. You're arguing these points, and I technically and logically agree with you, but I'm not willing to die on this hill and lose the deal

Dan Sugarman (00:16:20):

Because

Eyal Levi (00:16:22):

I could tell that that's what was going to happen. He was saying things like, dude, it's going to kill your band. I was like, my band's already dead. We just want this deal so we can put out one more thing to extend the life support a little further. But he was right about all that stuff. But I still think that if I had let him keep going, he would've killed the deal just on principle, which is what happened to you.

Dan Sugarman (00:16:46):

And it's really easy to say that he was just doing his job, and it's really easy to get emotional and paint it with the word sabotage, which it is clearly not. But Lech had an agenda to get me in. His blood runs black. That's why he was managing Fallen Figure, and that was revealed to me years after I was in As Blood Runs Black. He was like, yeah, I was poaching you, dude. For sure.

Eyal Levi (00:17:07):

Well, I mean, there you go. If he said it,

Dan Sugarman (00:17:10):

It is what it is. And I'm not holding onto it, but you wonder what would've happened. I certainly would've been here talking to you about Ice nine today. I'd probably be in a shitty tech death band still.

Eyal Levi (00:17:21):

It's weird, those things that don't seem like that huge of a deal, but are a total fork in the road.

Dan Sugarman (00:17:28):

Oh yeah.

Eyal Levi (00:17:29):

So for instance, we got offered a deal by prosthetic at around the same time as the road runner deal.

Dan Sugarman (00:17:36):

Ej.

Eyal Levi (00:17:36):

Yeah. EJ offered us an incredible deal. It was actually in a lot of ways better than the Roadrunner deal. Wow. Maybe it wasn't as financially good, but it was better in lots of ways. But we went with Roadrunner, it's Roadrunner, right?

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At the end of the day, it's Roadrunner. But in my mind, I was thinking, there's no way this is going to last, going to go with Roadrunner and it's going to be one album. That's it. There's no way that this is going to do well enough to sustain that. Now, I think that if we had gotten on prosthetic, we would've done well enough for prosthetic, which may have created a better working situation, which might've extended the life of the band longer. And I probably wouldn't be doing what I'm doing now. So some of those mistakes aren't really mistakes or

Dan Sugarman (00:18:25):

Fuckups

Eyal Levi (00:18:25):

Aren't really fuckups. I think

Dan Sugarman (00:18:27):

It's a very, very weird thing to ever have a situation like that come about. And I've actually been training myself, and this might sound a little bit foofy, spiritual garbage shit, but I've just been trying not to label things as good or bad. That's all I'm trying to do is when shit happens, I'm just like, all right,

Eyal Levi (00:18:45):

Shit happened.

Dan Sugarman (00:18:46):

Shit happened. Accept it, move forward, align with it, whatever the fuck. If it's the second that I go, that sucked that my body then creates thoughts and feelings and emotions, and then the situation that I have no control over is then my enemy. What the fuck is that? A childish.

Eyal Levi (00:19:03):

So at what point do you allow yourself to say, that sucked?

Dan Sugarman (00:19:08):

I mean, I'll still say it for sure why that's the training, right? I'll go, that sucked.

Eyal Levi (00:19:14):

But you try to limit its power,

Dan Sugarman (00:19:16):

Is what you're saying. Yes, exactly. I'll catch it. There's an awareness there where I'll go, ah, I just did the thing, and then instead of stewing in my shit, I'll just watch it and then move past it. But other times,

Eyal Levi (00:19:27):

So the mindfulness meditation techniques where you observe your emotions rather than let them sweep you away, basically.

Dan Sugarman (00:19:36):

Yes, yes. I'm a very, it's

Eyal Levi (00:19:38):

Helpful,

Dan Sugarman (00:19:39):

Very into all that stuff, man. I'm a weird dude. I'm into the insides.

Eyal Levi (00:19:44):

I don't think it's roofy, man. I think it's kind of crucial. It is, especially in such a high stress job where you are dealing with people that are emotionally unstable, just being around people that have that kind of energy. It can get on you. I only speak for this industry. This is the one I'm in. So maybe there's other ones like this. I'm sure Hollywood can be like that. I'm sure that something like being in combat can probably do that sort of thing. Anything where people are heightened, you're going to get emotional garbage or waste and it clings to you. So I think that those types of techniques, they're not fruity, man. They're kind of crucial. If you want to keep your mental health together,

Dan Sugarman (00:20:31):

It's super real, dude. There's something to be said about being in a room with other musicians and doing what's best for the band consciousness and not letting your ego step into the situation. So for me, something that I do every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, we're doing eight to 10 hour ice, nine kill sessions in this very room right now.

Eyal Levi (00:20:49):

Nice room.

Dan Sugarman (00:20:50):

Yeah. Thank you, man. We just got this house. Me and Joe, our bass player just moved here with our girlfriends. It's dope little setup in an Echo Park.

Eyal Levi (00:20:57):

Looks comfortable.

Dan Sugarman (00:20:58):

It is very cozy, dude, thank you. But if I don't spend time meditating and getting my shit right before a session, I find myself far more reactive, far more willing to take things personally when it's clearly just about band consciousness. What's the best thing for the direction of the brand and the style that we're moving in. It's not about me getting my fucking way for any other reason than I want my way. So meditation serves a very, very powerful tool in just situations like that, being there to serve the situation instead of force yourself into it. I think for me, it's been huge.

Eyal Levi (00:21:38):

What goes into these eight to 10 hour sessions that would force you to be reactive? Oh God. What are you guys doing? First of all, are you guys writing a record or what's going on?

Dan Sugarman (00:21:48):

Yes, we're writing a record right now. And this is exactly, I was talking to my girlfriend before this. I was like, I know he's going to ask me questions about this, and I got to make sure I don't get reactive.

Eyal Levi (00:21:59):

That's fine. And also, just so you know, we can edit stuff out afterwards.

Dan Sugarman (00:22:03):

Oh, dude, you know what? I don't give a shit, man. My brand is going to far exceed what the band is. It's me for my life. So my brand as a musician is being real as shit, being super transparent and not hiding shit because there's some reason to hide shit. So I don't mind putting this out there, man, something. Fair

Eyal Levi (00:22:24):

Enough.

Dan Sugarman (00:22:25):

I've been very vocal about a lot of shit like that. About my past or about negatives or about, I don't know, man. I'm not worried, in other words.

Eyal Levi (00:22:34):

All right, well then what we were saying. Yeah,

Dan Sugarman (00:22:35):

So what we're saying, what would cause me to be reactive in a session? So right now, ice Nine Kills is for sure a powerhouse in the metal world.

Eyal Levi (00:22:45):

Yeah, it's insane.

Dan Sugarman (00:22:47):

It doesn't even make sense to me, dude. As an outsider looking in, it doesn't make sense. As an insider looking out, I'm even more fucking confused. But there's something about the fact that Silver Scream, the previous record was written with Spencer as the main visionary. Everything was filtered through him. So there's this certain confidence in the fact that his vision, his filter, will be the path, if that makes any sense. So there's a lot of me and Joe, our other bass player, he was in a band called the Venetia Fair. Have you heard of them before?

Eyal Levi (00:23:21):

Nope. I'm sorry.

Dan Sugarman (00:23:22):

Musically speaking, man. No, no, dude, I don't. They're so fucking underground. Musically speaking though, with all the stuff that you did with doth of the weird Hungarian minor, all the weird chromaticism and shit, Venetia Fair is insane over the top circus,

Eyal Levi (00:23:36):

Writing it down,

Dan Sugarman (00:23:37):

It's like the most musical shit I've ever heard in my life, man. It's unbelievable. Joe is hands down, the best musician I've ever had the privilege of working with, and he's my roommate.

Eyal Levi (00:23:48):

I see.

Dan Sugarman (00:23:49):

He was the piano player and main songwriter of that. Unbelievable. So I have my own confidence in myself. I have this insane confidence in my roommate and bass player, unbelievable. He's basically the MD of the band. He's the music director,

Eyal Levi (00:24:01):

Talented dude,

Dan Sugarman (00:24:02):

Unbelievably talented. I know that between Joe and I, whatever Spencer wants to have happen can be had, right? We can make that happen. But a lot of times Joe and I will not agree, and you can imagine how any situation like that would go. But for instance, just yesterday, just yesterday, we wrapped a song, been you probably have this situation before. It's an equation that needs to be cracked. Do you know what I mean? Yes. What the fuck is the missing ingredient? I can't figure out what it is. So we've been having this song that's been the most requested song for us, for anyone who knows, ice Nine Kills. We do horror music stuff. So there's this one movie in particular that's been a very requested topic, and we finally started tackling it, and we've written probably 15 different iterations of this song, dude, it's Mind Numbingly Painful.

(00:24:51):

And the one that we finally landed on, Spencer comes in with this two second riff idea. And I'm like, alright, cool. I see where you're at. We're in this key and we're at this tempo. Dope. Let's work on it. Let's build it out. Let's flesh it out. Let's get it going. We have an intro and a verse going, and it's fucking awesome. And then our next session, he comes in with a chorus progression and he's like, I'm really feeling these vibes. I know this will work. And I'm sitting there going like, alright, dude, you've changed keys and we're now 20 BPM slower. This is not going to fly. So I have to sit there and argue endlessly, and I don't want to say argue because it's not bickering, but it's presenting facts and evidence to get someone to be persuaded. So I'm basically trying to convince him to shift tempos, shift keys.

(00:25:35):

I got him to shift keys. So now we have a chorus that's 20 bpm, slower, what the fuck? So then Joe and I are sitting there coming up with this insane concept of how we can make this work. So instead of putting the song, the verse would be at, let's say one 50, and then the chorus would be at one 30. So we were going to start the song at 75 so that it bumps up to one 30. So it feels like a shift up to the first chorus instead of a shift down, because the relative shift, if that makes sense,

(00:26:06):

We were going to endlessly try to make it feel like it was going faster, even though it kept shifting down and the end result was insane. I have no idea how we came up with that approach, but it actually somehow felt that way, didn't end up making Spencer stoked on the vision. He didn't see what he wanted to see, so he tears the fuck apart. And we're like, great, cool. Now we have another song to just rip the fuck up. And then he comes in with another bridge idea. Cool. Here's another tempo change, and now we're on another key again. So me and Joe are tasked with how do we get this in the song in key or in tempo when we managed to get it in tempo, but not in key. So we got him off of we're going to go slow. Or actually, I'm sorry, we're going to stay in Key, but we're going to go slow and now we're going to go out of key, but we're going to stay the same tempo. So now this song has three different songs in it, and it's like the best song we've ever written, hands down

Eyal Levi (00:26:59):

Dispenser agree.

Dan Sugarman (00:27:00):

Yeah, absolutely.

Eyal Levi (00:27:01):

Okay, that's good.

Dan Sugarman (00:27:03):

Absolutely. He agrees.

Eyal Levi (00:27:04):

That helps. So was that first tempo shift thing that you came up with? Almost like when you try to solve a creative thing with an academic solution and you work really, really hard on it, and you kind of get carried away with how it works, but then maybe it's just artistically off a little bit one of those.

Dan Sugarman (00:27:26):

Yeah. Yeah. It was absolutely academic. It was very much like theorizing and me and Joe sitting down over some fucking tea and trying to figure out what we could do.

Eyal Levi (00:27:34):

Just wasn't there yet, dude.

Dan Sugarman (00:27:36):

It was. We have so many songs that were there. But then Spencer's the vision, and this is again, no negatives, it's just if he doesn't approve or sign off on it, then it's not Ice nine, right?

Eyal Levi (00:27:46):

Well, then it's not there.

Dan Sugarman (00:27:47):

It's just not there,

Eyal Levi (00:27:48):

Right?

Dan Sugarman (00:27:48):

So me and Joe and I have our opinions go, yeah, no, this song is dope. I am satisfied. And then he's like, ah, something about the chorus just isn't right, or something about the bridge section we just got to redo. So then it's me and Joe's job to figure out what the hell he means. He wants this part to be stabby and gory. That's musically the direction he wants. So what do those words mean? Music? How

Eyal Levi (00:28:11):

Do you define that? Yeah,

Dan Sugarman (00:28:12):

What does that mean when he says it sounds muddy, and I'm sitting there looking at the EQ and I know for a fact that is not muddy. What is he actually saying? Oh, arrangement, he wants to spread. He wants to lead higher and the riff lower. You know what I mean?

(00:28:26):

It's learning how to, and this is a producer skill that I'm sure you're super aware of and flex all the time, but it's just learning how to translate someone's language so that it can be what they want to hear. And it's our job, Joe and I, is to basically translate the vision that Spencer has. And in any instance like that, it's going to be frustrating. And when we have a win and we're like, holy shit, this is it. It's phenomenal, man. We just wrapped a song that got sent off to management just to see if they liked it. And they're like, guys, this is the best song you've ever done. Go to Drew's right now and record this so we could put it out as a single. So Drew just got my DI two days ago, and he's finishing the song right now. There's an energy there that we're capturing with this new music that I think didn't exist before. And for those of you who do know the band, our goal with the song we just did was to take out our song. It is The End, and we Smashed it. Have you heard that song before by any chance?

Eyal Levi (00:29:23):

Yep.

Dan Sugarman (00:29:23):

That's like our punk zany clown fucking weird thing, right?

Eyal Levi (00:29:28):

Dude, your songs are all over the place.

Dan Sugarman (00:29:30):

They're all over, dude. And it's even further now. We have, fuck It, dude. I don't even care what I'm saying. The song that we just finished, we're touching on super throwback things. There's almost like an Elvis tinge to it. And then the new song that we just finished yesterday is So Fucking Fast, so technical. So System of A Down and Zany, comical Ice Nine, cheeky Shit we're like 11 songs deep right now. Those are the last two that we've completed, and they're completely different books, but somehow those two books are sold in a Box Package Ice Nine Kills. I don't know how it works, dude.

Eyal Levi (00:30:07):

Do you think it's kind of interesting, I don't know what the right word is, but I felt this way about Avenge Sevenfold two, where you know how there's this stereotype that the bigger bands are not musically advanced or simpleton ish or whatever, you know what I mean? There's this weird stereotype, but then I look at you guys, or I look at a band like Avenge Sevenfold, which you guys don't sound anything like them, but still they're super incredible musicians and their music is always super advanced. And I look at you guys and it's very, very commercial in its own weird ass way, but this is real music. Do you find that strange?

Dan Sugarman (00:30:51):

Are you kind of hinting at the notion of that it's commercially accessible, but when you kind of peel back the layers, it's like, what the hell is going on in here?

Eyal Levi (00:31:00):

Yeah, it's like the real deal, real music by real musicians.

Dan Sugarman (00:31:03):

Yeah. I don't really know what it is, man. And it's also something that as Bloons Black sort of had, it's like this gateway band type of energy where it's the first metal band that people check out because there's something really tangible and accessible on the surface. And then you could either go deeper and decide like, oh fuck, this band is dope. Or you kind of use that band as a catapult to check out the real metal stuff. I always found as Blood Runs Black specifically, was that the amount of times that we had 13, 16 year olds covering our shit online, and that was their first metal song that they learned or something. Ice nine has a very similar thing. We have a lot of beginning guitar players who're very into what we do. We have a lot of singers and lyricists who are really attached to the power and persona that Spencer has. So there's a lot of just artistic kids, outcasted, artistic kids, I should say. There's something very specific about the demographic of Ice nine. It's the pushed away people, you know what I mean? And they all have had this place to now come and collect and gather and put all of their energy and support into, and Ice Nine somehow managed to be the victor in that battle. I don't know what happened there, but do you kind of feel me on that?

Eyal Levi (00:32:19):

I do. You just don't normally associate that kind of band with intricate, complex, advanced musicianship.

Dan Sugarman (00:32:27):

It's so strange, man.

Eyal Levi (00:32:29):

It's kind of odd.

Dan Sugarman (00:32:30):

Yeah, yeah. There's something straight up. We just were working on a track with Feldman that is so radio, so perfect for radio, right? Huge, huge sounding.

Eyal Levi (00:32:41):

I believe it.

Dan Sugarman (00:32:42):

And then the next time we went to Feldman, we're like, we need to do just insane Ice nine Metal. We have to balance that out. And with Feldman, the dude is so polished, so clean, everything that guy does is so thought out. He literally is just like, this isn't my realm. Let's just have fun and see what happens. And it just becomes a thing where being in a room with someone like him who's kind of directing and guiding us, but also knowing that it's not his forte. So he was kind of in that particular session, he was really looking at me to kind of lead with riff ideas and where it would go so

Eyal Levi (00:33:15):

He knows when to get the fuck out of the way.

Dan Sugarman (00:33:18):

And it was incredible, dude,

Eyal Levi (00:33:19):

Like a great producer. Surprise,

Dan Sugarman (00:33:22):

Surprise, surprise. But the dude is terrifyingly spontaneous, for instance.

Eyal Levi (00:33:29):

That's what I've heard.

Dan Sugarman (00:33:30):

For instance, this tech song that we're writing where it's like, this isn't my forte, guys. We should definitely write something really, really technical. And then you'd think a conversation would ensue and maybe some talks over lunch about what the song could be talking about ingredients. But no, he literally goes, we need a tech death song. Hits the R button, turns around and goes, what do you have for me? And I'm sitting there like this, I don't know. And then immediately he's like, yeah, that was cool. Let's build on that. Let's build on that. So he's like a spark farmer. He's looking for tiny little sparks.

Eyal Levi (00:34:01):

That's a good way to put it,

Dan Sugarman (00:34:03):

To turn into fires. That's the way I look at my producing. I always look for those little tiny things to build on, but that's what I see his specialty as. He just wants to be in a room with people who are talented as shit, doing what they do, and then he captures the magic, whatever that may be.

Eyal Levi (00:34:18):

So it sounds like your role in the band, I mean along with obviously playing the instrument and performing, I guess the standard stuff that everyone in a band has to do. Sounds like your role is kind of internal producer, internal arranger from what you've said. I'm sure there's other stuff you do too, but that's what we've talked about. What's it like for you as someone who has developed that and obviously as a strong musical personality to then get into the room with someone like John Feldman who is known to be musical alpha? How do you learn to, I guess, know to turn it down in your own head and just go with the dude's got to say, or when do you know? How do you know when to push back on someone like that?

Dan Sugarman (00:35:10):

It's interesting in you asking the question, my mind is doing a bunch of things.

Eyal Levi (00:35:14):

Or even Drew Falk man, that dude too.

Dan Sugarman (00:35:17):

Yeah. Drew knows what the fuck he wants, man. Drew is a very similar and different producer. The difference in Drew is you would go to lunch and talk about what it would be, but then you'd go there and he would just be like, no, not that, that, not that.

Eyal Levi (00:35:30):

Yeah. But he's staggeringly talented. I guess that's what I mean. How do you know when to tell your own voice to shut the fuck up and just go with what one of these guys is saying?

Dan Sugarman (00:35:40):

It's really interesting, man. I mean, the first session we had with Feldman, I literally just went there with my fucking scholastic cap on.

Eyal Levi (00:35:47):

I feel like I talked to you that day.

Dan Sugarman (00:35:49):

Yeah, you did. You reached out. Yeah, I went there with my fucking schoolboy uniform on and took notes and was just there to watch how he not only harnesses ideas but creates them. There'll be moments where we're sitting there. I mean, I should take back a little bit of what I said before. There are times where he'll all sit down in the room with an acoustic and be playing with chords and what would this melody sound like over it? But in those moments, he'll just grab a guitar and walk away for 15 minutes and come back and he's like, here's a chord progression with lyrics and a melody. And then that's the thing that we sit and build on and work around. So there's this spontaneous genius that I, I'm sitting there trying to figure out where that comes from. So there's a certain air of me just wanting to be there to observe and witness and through osmosis absorb what I can. But then there's this other part of me. Have you ever heard of the Canvas strategy?

Eyal Levi (00:36:45):

No. Maybe tell me, are

Dan Sugarman (00:36:47):

You Tim Ferris fan? I'm

Eyal Levi (00:36:48):

Not going to say I'm not a Tim Ferris fan. You're aware of him? I mean, I've read his books too.

Dan Sugarman (00:36:53):

Cool,

Eyal Levi (00:36:53):

Cool, cool. So let's put it this way. I think he's brilliant. I don't think that people interpreted his works the way he meant them though.

New Speaker (00:37:01):

Yes.

Eyal Levi (00:37:01):

That's what I'll say. Four hour work week isn't not

Dan Sugarman (00:37:04):

What it is

Eyal Levi (00:37:05):

Telling you to only work four hours. He's a dude that works 12 hours a day and admittedly has no friends and is usually single. So he's a workaholic. I think people miss the point of what he was trying to say. That's all.

Dan Sugarman (00:37:21):

Yeah, I absolutely hear that, and I think that's a really valuable thing to mention. But the thing that I took away from Tools of Titans specifically was this canvas strategy thing, which is basically the person who clears the path controls the direction.

Eyal Levi (00:37:36):

I agree.

Dan Sugarman (00:37:36):

Or the person who provides the canvas controls the shape of the painting. That's like the whole canvas strategy concept. So it's like me sitting there in those sessions to be a conduit to make his idea happen, allows me somewhat an heir of, I don't want to say control or power, but it's because I'm the conduit to it that he will, I've humbled myself enough to where he wants to hear what I have to say when I say it, if that makes sense. Got

Eyal Levi (00:38:02):

It. Yeah, that does make sense. Yeah.

Dan Sugarman (00:38:04):

When I speak, it's like, oh, it must mean something. He doesn't mention shit often.

Eyal Levi (00:38:09):

I mean, dude, you got to have some sort of a strategy, in my opinion, in order to be able to communicate with people like that, oh God, that are operating on that level.

Dan Sugarman (00:38:19):

And there's also this other thing as far as the dude is just wired. I've never, there's an amount of coffee that I couldn't have to catch up with how wired he is.

Eyal Levi (00:38:31):

I feel like, dude, I just spoke to somebody the other day on the podcast who said the exact same thing about Feldman, that the amount of energy, I think it was Jake Pitts by Feld Bride who said this. They said that the amount of energy, the guy, I think it was him, and I do so many of these, sometimes I

Dan Sugarman (00:38:50):

Get

Eyal Levi (00:38:50):

Blurry, but said that the amount of energy that dude has is just off the charts.

Dan Sugarman (00:38:58):

It doesn't make sense, man. We get there at noon and he had just finished a full day's session already somehow had a two hour workout and then wants to play ping pong with me and Spencer for an hour before our session, which by the way, if you want to get into Feldman's heart, get good at ping pong,

Eyal Levi (00:39:14):

When does he start at 4:00 AM

Dan Sugarman (00:39:16):

Dude, I don't even know. Every time we go there, there will be someone in a session with him, but he had already gotten a workout in as well. I don't know. What does he sleep?

Eyal Levi (00:39:26):

I like that.

Dan Sugarman (00:39:27):

I don't even know. But the guy's like 50 and he's acting like a 20-year-old. That's so fucking inspiring dude. And beyond that, the life, the guy is unbelievable. He's got a beautiful house and family in Calabasas, but then half of his house is dedicated to being this secluded studio vibe, and you feel like you're in another world, and then you just pop on the other side of the door and go into his kitchen and make tacos. It's just so cool, dude. Such a great vibe for creating.

Eyal Levi (00:39:56):

Yeah, I feel like if you don't, I was saying if you don't have a strategy for how to communicate with people like that, they're just going to do their thing and whatever they do is going to be their thing. Yeah. So powerful. Basically.

Dan Sugarman (00:40:14):

It's really ironic you say this. Me and Joe, Joe and I also have our own podcast. He mentioned this in his own podcast the other day, which is why we talked about it. What's

Eyal Levi (00:40:23):

It called? His

Dan Sugarman (00:40:24):

Podcast is called That's Awesome. With Joe and mine's called Mindframe. I'm launching it very, very soon. I actually just signed a deal with Dave Shapiro to come out on his network.

Eyal Levi (00:40:33):

Nice. Congrats.

Dan Sugarman (00:40:34):

Stoked about that.

Eyal Levi (00:40:35):

That guy is impressive too.

Dan Sugarman (00:40:36):

Yeah. Oh God, that guy is a accomplishment of humanity. I don't know how he does what he does. Yeah,

Eyal Levi (00:40:42):

So

Dan Sugarman (00:40:42):

Spencer is a visionary and a very specific personality type. I've historically struggled with getting my idea across the board and then into the da, unless Spencer leaves the room and then I get to record it, and he goes, whoa, what the fuck is that? That's awesome. But if he's in the room, he won't let it happen. But Joe has this magical ability where if Spencer's in the room, Joe manages to get his shit in, and we've been talking about the strategy, it's really inception. It's planting the idea in his head to make him think it's his idea.

(00:41:15):

Arguably manipulative, arguably just good practice as a producer to make the best music in the environment. But I've been practicing this and I've been trying to get better at it. And during our session the other day, Spencer would say something like, oh, it would be really cool if we did this. And I was like, yeah, man, I just said that 20 minutes ago. And then I'm sitting there like, fuck, I just revealed that. And that happened five times in the day where he was like, we should do this. And then I stopped saying, I just said that, and I realized, holy shit. His idea is my idea that I said 30 minutes ago. So there's an interesting thing in being able to circle back and get your thing in there, even though it may not necessarily be the vision. I think there's a willingness to see if you trust your band mates enough, there's a willingness to see the vision on all ends. You know what I mean?

Eyal Levi (00:42:05):

Well, I have an opinion about that technique, and I think that if you're working with the kind of person who needs to feel like the idea is theirs, and I've worked and worked with people like that, I think we all can be stubborn. I'm sure I do it too. Sometimes. I don't think it's a bad thing to use that technique because if the idea is not worthy, then they're probably not going to take to it anyways. If you plant the seed and then 30 minutes later they forget that you planted it, but it actually grew into something, then who the fuck cares where it came from? Let them believe they came up with it. It doesn't matter. Point is it's a good idea. And it stuck.

Dan Sugarman (00:42:46):

Yeah, the cream rises to the top. That old saying, I feel like it's really just that.

Eyal Levi (00:42:51):

Yeah, I was going to say, I'm sure there's a bunch of ideas that you floated that didn't stick, so who cares?

Dan Sugarman (00:42:59):

Yeah. It's a persistence thing and being willing to know that your idea maybe won't be heard, and maybe this technique will reveal its ugly ass head in 30 minutes and we'll see what we can do with it. But otherwise, I'm here to just serve the session and make this song as good as it can fucking be, because I'm here to support the brand and the sound. And that's to me, what getting hired to be in a band that's currently already a thing, that's your role. I'm absolutely coming in and kicking these fucking walls down, and I'm not going to play guitar like a bitch. There's certain things that I'm not going to do. I like vibrato. I'm a huge vibrato guy. I'm huge on field. I'm huge on Bens. The old guitar player didn't ever do those. That was not a thing that would ever happen. It was almost robotic. So for me, there's going to be an air of a human touch that's going to be involved in the new sound that I don't think was there before. So if it's just that, if that's the only ingredient that I'm bringing, that's enough for me. But in reality, nothing

Eyal Levi (00:44:01):

Wrong with an upgrade.

Dan Sugarman (00:44:03):

In reality though, there's so many fucking ingredients that I'm bringing to the table that I can't really talk about yet. And I also don't even know what seeds will grow into what, so we'll see. Right.

Eyal Levi (00:44:12):

When you got hired, was it understood that you'd get some input at some point? Or was it one of those, this is just cool that it's happening, this band is doing stuff, let's just see how it goes. And then over time we started to trust you a little more and it just organically developed.

Dan Sugarman (00:44:29):

Yeah, dude, there was definitely an organic trust that developed, but on the very first tour that I did, all of a sudden we're a fucking radio band instead of some kind of metal core death core thing. And we're having to play acoustic performances at 8:00 AM almost every other day for these radio stations. And that could be to 30 people who won some contest or to three old guys eating bagels who work at the station, and it's just entertainment for them, which is a really weird thing to feel like a whore. You know what I mean? I really feels like prostitution. But there was that thing of like, okay, so now we need to be a radio band, and that means we need to get acoustics, and that means we have metal songs that need to be acoustic now. And Spencer's baffled and looks at me and he is like, all right, what the fuck does that mean?

(00:45:19):

So I arranged a bunch of songs for acoustics. Me and Joe put a lot of time into making that what it was. And then we started performing these things and they were received really well, and Spencer enjoyed the shit out of doing them. Those songs I think were my foot in the door to prove my worth is like, what can you do with something? I don't know what to do with. And then Spencer offered me, after that first tour happened, everyone flew back home and I was the only one at this time living in Los Angeles, and we had this acoustic performance with Ash Costello from New Year's Day. I dunno if you're aware of her.

Eyal Levi (00:45:53):

Nope. But I am now I guess.

Dan Sugarman (00:45:55):

Yep. Half a million followers on Instagram. You'll see her one day. I'm sure it's insane. This is like a goth metal rock rob, zombie chick fronted.

Eyal Levi (00:46:06):

I feel like I've seen her before.

Dan Sugarman (00:46:08):

They're cool, man. We toured with them. They're fun, fun people. But we got back, we had to do this acoustic performance, and Spencer was like, I don't want to do this myself. Can you help me out? So me and him prepared some songs, did a performance with Ash, and that was the first time that Spencer had me come over to his house to work on music. After we had done that, the performance went off. Well, he invited me over to start. He's like, I have a couple of riff ideas, man. Do you think you can come over and see what we could do? And I sat down on his rig, which is Garage Band, and I don't know, I don't use Garage Band for shit. And we're sitting there developing a demo for what turned out to be your numbers up, which is our song about Scream.

(00:46:50):

And there was so many different iterations of that. Man. If the version that I wrote was released, we would've been solidified as a very technical death metal band, which would've been fucking cool. There was a lot of stuff in one of the versions that I did that I would've loved to bring as a new ingredient. I feel like there was a moment where there was enough eyes on the band because unquote, the guitar player who wrote everything left and now there's this new guy, which isn't the case at all. Spencer wrote mass amounts of almost everything, but I had this opportunity to kind of come in and show what I could do and wrote a version of a song, got peeled apart, blah, blah, blah. But effectively in me taking the time to make my version of the song Spencer saying, it's not quite what he wants, and then me showing my willingness, I guess, to get it to be what he wants, that I think was the proof he needed that song was fucking awesome. I actually think that's been voted by our fans like the number one song right now, which is insane. It being the first song that I wrote with the band. And then right after that, we were tasked with doing a cover of the Thriller Michael Jackson's thriller song. And I

Eyal Levi (00:47:59):

Think I've heard of it.

Dan Sugarman (00:48:00):

Yeah, I mean I've heard of Michael Jackson. I don't know his music though,

Eyal Levi (00:48:03):

I think So.

Dan Sugarman (00:48:04):

He is a basketball player, right? Sounds

Eyal Levi (00:48:05):

Familiar. Both something like that.

Dan Sugarman (00:48:07):

Yeah,

Eyal Levi (00:48:08):

Sounds familiar.

Dan Sugarman (00:48:11):

But

Eyal Levi (00:48:12):

I

Dan Sugarman (00:48:12):

Know I was basically asked to play rock guitar, but then we want this over the top fucking solo. So I was finally given the opportunity to have fun with the solo, and that was received well. So all of a sudden I am in Spencer's eyes, I think, and this is me a hundred percent unpacking, I don't know, but I think it's sort of proved that I could be told no and then work my way to figure out how to get it right. And then I could also fit the role of making it feel like rock or whatever weird request he wants and then helicopter my dick around in a solo when he wants. You know what I mean? So that mixed with the fact that all of the songs that I had arranged acoustically were then rerecorded and put on a re-release of the silver screen.

(00:48:58):

So you have the silver screen final cut, which had my track, your numbers up, thriller, and five of the acoustic songs that I was a part of arranging were then re-released on the record that I had no part in. And then all of a sudden I'm thrust into the brand, arguably on the surface, like the company, the LLC, that's not the case, but because it seems like I'm so involved, people are just accepting of it right now. I am in the band, we're writing the record now. People are accepting of it. So I think it was right person, right place, right time, showing up to do the fucking work. And again, like I said earlier, under promising and overdelivering is a really big part of it.

Eyal Levi (00:49:35):

I think that that's kind of the way to make anything work in music pretty much. That's like if there's any rule I've noticed, it's that the more you under promise and over deliver, the better off you'll be. That's how everybody I know who's ever advanced in a role has done it in their own particular way. But it basically comes down to that. And you can see people who don't do that. People who over promise, over promise and then kind of deliver or over promise and under deliver or don't even promise and just kind of complain. Any variation besides under promise, over deliver, they tend to have a limited lifespan. Or if they don't have a limited lifespan, there's a ceiling on how high they're allowed to rise. And the reason I say allowed to is because as you know, everything, no matter how well you do or how talented you are, you always need somebody to say yes to you. There's always somebody involved with saying yes, whether it's, yes, we're going to give you this deal. Yes, we're going to let you in this band. Yes, you can go on this tour. Yes, whatever. It's always a yes involved.

Dan Sugarman (00:50:53):

Absolutely.

Eyal Levi (00:50:54):

And I feel like people who overdeliver tend to get that Yes. Way more easily.

Dan Sugarman (00:51:00):

It's true, man. I mean, if someone tells me, dude, you have to try this burrito. It's the best fucking burrito you will ever have. You fucked it. It's

Eyal Levi (00:51:11):

Big words.

Dan Sugarman (00:51:12):

Yeah, you done fucked yourself right away. Because when I take a bite and it's good, I'm going to be bummed that this wasn't great. Do you know what I mean?

Eyal Levi (00:51:21):

Absolutely.

Dan Sugarman (00:51:21):

If you're like a little hole in the spot wall, they make burritos, tacos, it's dope. Let's check it out. And I take a bite of that and it's unreal, dude, I'm sold. I'm going there every fucking Friday. Where are you? Why aren't you here? It's a different thing. And I think there's something to be said about that everywhere, not even just in music or business, even in just communicating to your loved ones. You know what I mean? It's an interesting thing.

Eyal Levi (00:51:44):

Yeah. I mean, it helps to not be a bullshitter, even though I think that people think that salesman bullshitters tend to have an advantage in life. I feel like it's shortsighted, shortsighted to do that because eventually you build up a reputation with people over time. It's not a good thing to do that you might score some short-term wins by just being manipulative or persuasive, but people aren't dumb over time. If you consistently don't provide results that are either better than or congruent with the words you speak, people are going to remember that.

Dan Sugarman (00:52:25):

Yeah, man. I mean, one of the easiest ways for me to see that in my own life is my retention rates with my students, with my guitar students. It's like if I had an insane turnover rate, that'd be saying a lot about my shit, but the fact that they're willing to stick around says much more about the fact that they're getting what they want instead of me trying to sell them into it and then convince them every time and carrot and stick their way to the next lesson. You know what I mean? There's something about just delivering that keeps the repeat happiness going.

Eyal Levi (00:52:55):

Yeah. I can tell you that with URM, people think that we advertise heavily and market a lot because they see us everywhere, but in reality, our ad spend is actually really, really low compared to what people think it is. But people stick around and they show up organically, and I think it's for that same reason. When we've told people our ad spend, they're like, how is that even possible? How do you think it's possible? We don't have to go nuts?

Dan Sugarman (00:53:24):

Yeah, dude, word of mouth is insane. If you have people who are, it's canvas strategy, man, you are forging the path for all these people to learn what they're doing and then they're going to be the preachers. You need to get excited so you don't have to, right. They're going to get all their friends stoked on it. You changed their life in a weird way.

Eyal Levi (00:53:42):

Absolutely. So how did you figure this out as far as teaching people goes, is this something that you just started because you're a guitar player? And it made sense because a lot of guitar players do that. I did too at some point.

Dan Sugarman (00:54:00):

Dude, I'm weirdly, you and I actually, I want to chat with you about this a lot just because I know the world you're in with this stuff, but I would consider myself a guitar and music teacher and mentor

(00:54:14):

Before I consider myself a songwriter, touring musician, or anything that I'm doing on the service. Because where I really excel and where I really get the most internal reward is in teaching people. And it sounds really fucking lame for me to say that, but there's something about the selfless sharing of what I love so much and watching other people learn to love it the same way that I do. I know this shit saved my life. I know that without music, I fucking would not be here today. And it really, really, really means a lot to me when I see that connection happen with other people, and I honestly live for that shit. So how did I find out the way to kind of play the long game with students is kind of your question, right?

Eyal Levi (00:55:01):

Yes.

Dan Sugarman (00:55:01):

It really comes down to just interpersonal skills, I think with people and communication, and I think it comes down to being really transparent and also knowing how to connect things with music, particularly in a way where they might not know that they're being led down a path that's going to lead them to what they want, but if they can trust the guidance that they know, they'll get there and there's something in kind of blindly just following the teacher that can be super fucking detrimental. And it's when you deliver on that shit or over deliver on that shit that they want to stick around, they want to keep going down the path. They're willing to just turn a blind corner with you to see what's going on. And that's been my obsession, dude. I've been teaching full-time for over a decade, several different iterations of things going on, but I had launched a semi-successful, we had very large plans, but I launched a semi successsful guitar school called Everret about two years ago, and we had amassed a pretty good amount of students. We had some pretty cool products that we were doing, but the business partner that I had at the time was just, it just turned all bad.

Eyal Levi (00:56:13):

Those things happen.

Dan Sugarman (00:56:15):

Oh dude, and this is another thing that I said, I'm not going to say his name. I'm not going to talk about the situation.

Eyal Levi (00:56:20):

No name

Dan Sugarman (00:56:21):

Doesn't deserve it. Right,

Eyal Levi (00:56:22):

Fair enough.

Dan Sugarman (00:56:23):

But that was the opening to all of this shit. So during that, I started something called Ever Fret tv. So once a week we had a guitar player or another musician, come on Instagram live with us, and the whole concept was about getting into their mind frame. It was about understanding how have you ever come, failures, what have you done when you've hit a wall and felt like you didn't want to keep going? How did you get to where you are right now with X, Y, and Z in your way with the purpose being actionable takeaways? If you were a listener, what would you walk away with? And being able to apply to your life as a musician. So that was one of the facets of ever fret mixed with tab books mixed with online courses. So I'm taking all those components that I 100% did myself with a partner who took all of the credit. I'm sure you've felt in your life

Eyal Levi (00:57:11):

It's happened.

Dan Sugarman (00:57:11):

Yeah. I'm taking all of those ideas and things that I developed and I'm launching it again and rebranding it. So right now I've just launched what I'm calling Sugarman's Lesson Lounge. I have huge ass Discord group with 250 plus students of mine Facebook group, and I'm developing a bunch of different levels of it, and I know the world You're in riff hard, are you taking your oxygen right there?

Eyal Levi (00:57:34):

This is a vocal nebulizer. People always think I'm vaping.

Dan Sugarman (00:57:40):

Is it just moisture?

Eyal Levi (00:57:41):

It's like saline solution. It helps.

Dan Sugarman (00:57:44):

Is it with

Eyal Levi (00:57:44):

Your, this was recommended to me by Mary Zimmer from Voice Hacks. I listened to her about anything to do with voice. I started taking speaking lessons from her just because I need to be able to speak a lot and how she recommended this thing. Everyone thinks I'm vaping, but I'm not.

Dan Sugarman (00:58:01):

Is that like to keep your throat from getting cracky when you're talking or something?

Eyal Levi (00:58:05):

Yeah, man, I talk a lot. I do these every single day and then live streams and phone calls and meetings. It's just I want my voice to keep working.

Dan Sugarman (00:58:15):

That makes a lot of sense, man. That's your new instrument. That makes perfect fucking sense,

Eyal Levi (00:58:19):

Basically.

Dan Sugarman (00:58:20):

Yeah, dude. So basically there's so many different components of that man. We had our third partner who is still my partner with my new company. He's a venture capitalist on Wall Street. The dude's deeply invested in knowing what the fuck he does, and he had valued the previous company very highly. That's what he does. So he was really into it and started connecting us with people and shit fizzled because of my partner. Fast forward till now, shit is going really well, and I just want to say this now. I focus on leads. I focus on lead guitar playing. I know what you do. I know what you and John do,

Eyal Levi (00:59:00):

Dude. There's a lot of guitar players in the world. It's all good.

Dan Sugarman (00:59:03):

Yeah, yeah, super true. And I would never compete with John Brown's fucking right hand. I'd be stupid to do that.

Eyal Levi (00:59:09):

Not many people can

Dan Sugarman (00:59:11):

I know, dude. I know. It's

Eyal Levi (00:59:13):

Crazy to watch. Yeah, it's insane. It's freakish.

Dan Sugarman (00:59:16):

It really is. But there's something really, really cool about, for me, developing a community that's completely centered around evolving as a musician or as a guitar player, as a person, and then the community support around that and getting someone who might be one step ahead of you and someone one step behind you if in your community you're getting advice from someone and giving advice to someone. That's the ultimate learning in my opinion.

Eyal Levi (00:59:44):

I agree.

Dan Sugarman (00:59:44):

Yeah. As far as the community aspect goes, the lesson lounge that I've been doing is just so fucking awesome. Currently it's free, but as you can imagine with anyone who knows business and is business minded, this is a funnel and it will be turning into a lot of awesome things in the near future. And all of that goes hand in hand with my mind frame podcast. That is a continuation of ever fret tv. I'm going to continue having these deep discussions with other musicians about specifics on how they do what they do for the purpose of giving up and comers and earlier musicians, a leg up and some kind of takeaway to walk away with and apply. That's effectively my whole purpose, man. What I want to do with my career and brand is that shit I want to be, obviously being in a band is fun as shit, man. But I'm 30. Am I going to be doing this when I'm 50? I don't know. Probably not. I want to have some other things that I get.

Eyal Levi (01:00:37):

It's good to be looking at things that way.

Dan Sugarman (01:00:40):

Yeah. I mean, I'm Jewish, dude. Yeah. My dad and family forced me to think this way very early on. And endangered

Eyal Levi (01:00:50):

Species.

Dan Sugarman (01:00:51):

Yeah, an endangered species for sure.

Eyal Levi (01:00:53):

Yeah. I got to always think an endangered species.

Dan Sugarman (01:00:56):

So true.

Eyal Levi (01:00:57):

By the way, something you said about the teaching people thing, you said that it sounds lame. So anyways, when I first started doing this stuff in 2013 and did my first Creative Live, I enjoyed it a lot more than just about anything else I had done.

Dan Sugarman (01:01:15):

I loved that, by the way,

Eyal Levi (01:01:16):

The Easy Drummer one

Dan Sugarman (01:01:18):

On putting your drums together. That was one of the first production metal just exposes that I ever saw. It was awesome.

Eyal Levi (01:01:25):

I think it may have been the first one that I know of, and I had never even used Easy Drummer before that point. I learned it that week for the class, and I thought it was the lamest thing ever. I was doing a favor to my friend Finn, but it went so well, and I enjoyed it so much more than anything that had happened with production or my band that I would tell people, but then I'd feel like I was lying or that they thought I was lying or something. And then for many years I'd get people are being like, yeah, but don't you just want to tour again? Or something like that. It's like, no, not really. Actually, I'm happy with this. So I don't think it sounds lame, but I understand why you would say that, but I don't think it's lame.

Dan Sugarman (01:02:14):

It really comes down to the fact that what I do on the surface, so many people in the world are like, that's what I want to do, and I'm sitting here saying that I love the thing that is arguably lame. You know what I'm saying?

Eyal Levi (01:02:27):

Well, that's plan B for a lot of musicians, but dude, most musicians who teach aren't thinking about starting a whole business empire around it. Just to be clear,

Dan Sugarman (01:02:40):

Matt Squire.

Eyal Levi (01:02:41):

Yeah, the producer.

Dan Sugarman (01:02:42):

Yeah. Have you aware what he's doing with live streaming right now?

Eyal Levi (01:02:45):

No. I was aware of what he was doing in Washington a few years ago.

Dan Sugarman (01:02:50):

That guy literally just solved the entire livestream problem. I actually heard you talking with, it was either Nick Johnson or Matt Halburn or someone on a podcast about live streaming being a problem.

New Speaker (01:03:02):

Yeah.

Dan Sugarman (01:03:02):

He solved it. He literally solved it. Did you hear about the new under oath stream that just came out?

Eyal Levi (01:03:07):

I did. Yeah. I heard it went great.

Dan Sugarman (01:03:08):

That was his technology that they used.

Eyal Levi (01:03:10):

Nice. He

Dan Sugarman (01:03:11):

Solved the whole thing to where anyone where they are can jam in real time and there's no latency, blah, blah, blah.

Eyal Levi (01:03:17):

I don't know if you're aware, but we just figured out how to do nail the mix, totally remote, no drop in quality at all, actually higher quality somehow than before. I

New Speaker (01:03:29):

Saw that

Eyal Levi (01:03:30):

Did a 10 hour stream the other day, and it was awesome. It was actually better and easier. You don't have to get on a plane. I am not saying I never want to be in person with people again. Obviously we will, but there were some aspects about this that was actually better. Definitely, like I said, higher production value, but the fact that I could talk to people face to face as opposed to the back of their head made it way easier as a host,

Dan Sugarman (01:03:55):

I'm sure.

Eyal Levi (01:03:55):

Yeah.

Dan Sugarman (01:03:56):

Interesting. I mean, dude, just the fact that you don't need to fly to Finland to shoot a thing tomorrow and then be dead ass for three days, but you're supposed to be on the ball that that's so challenging, man. I can imagine you waking up in your bed to be like, let's go do a 10 hour stream. Feels a lot better.

Eyal Levi (01:04:14):

It's a new thing. Yeah, man. It's a whole new thing. I mean, you understand what travel does to you. So for instance, at the end of last year, this is in some ways I consider it to be, I don't know what I consider to be tougher when my band did a 90 day tour or what I was doing last. We did that TV recently. Yeah, the 90 day tours are intense.

Dan Sugarman (01:04:39):

That was my first tour back after three and a half years not touring. That was my first Ice nine tour was 90 days, and

Eyal Levi (01:04:44):

Dude, it changes you. Fuck you come back a different person. So we did nail the mix with Jens Boren in LA at the end of October. Then I went to Atlanta for two days, then to Vegas to do the URM summit for a week. Then went to Atlanta for two days, then went to Denmark for four days to do nail the mix and shi with to I Matson. Then flew straight from there to New Jersey to shoot the course with Will Putney, and then months later went home. It's like that kind of stuff. I mean, yeah, the difference between that and touring, especially Van Touring is we're in decent hotels and all that, but that doesn't change the fact that you're traveling all the time and you're jet lagged and you're crossing time zones and you have to be on it at all times. So yeah, waking up in my own bed and then coming downstairs and doing a 10 hour stream, it was still brutal. It's still a 10 hour stream where I have to be on the whole time, but the big difference is I'm not jet lagged on top of it. That's huge difference.

Dan Sugarman (01:05:49):

That's a huge relief, man. And there's almost something in just, I have a very challenging diet to live with. I'm vegan and gluten-free. It's the fucking worst.

Eyal Levi (01:06:01):

Sounds tough.

Dan Sugarman (01:06:02):

Arguably, I somehow still struggle using the word vegan. I feel like it goes hand in hand with shaming people, and I'm not about that.

Eyal Levi (01:06:10):

Okay, fair enough.

Dan Sugarman (01:06:11):

Do you kind of feel me on that?

Eyal Levi (01:06:13):

Well, yeah. I've been vegetarian for like 25 years and I mean, I'm pretty much, I would say vegan in practice, but I don't associate with that stuff.

Dan Sugarman (01:06:24):

Yeah,

Eyal Levi (01:06:25):

I told you now it came up, but I generally don't. Right.

Dan Sugarman (01:06:28):

I won't

Eyal Levi (01:06:28):

Bring it up. I don't care what restaurants we go to. I don't make it a thing, and I don't get involved with that stuff because I don't give a fuck what other people eat, and I don't think it should be anybody's business.

Dan Sugarman (01:06:41):

Very, very true, dude. I mean,

Eyal Levi (01:06:42):

Sounds like we're on the same page.

Dan Sugarman (01:06:44):

We absolutely are. I try to keep it to a minimum, and the instances where it's an issue is we're like, I didn't get to eat for two days because a tour manager forgot to send off my dietary restrictions or something like that. And that's the only time where I'm like, Hey, can I just get a banana? That'd be really cool. You know what I mean? But there's something to be said about knowing where your fucking meal comes from. I was like, just the relief and comfort in that for me would remove a huge amount of stress in my day. So the fact that you could be at your house

Eyal Levi (01:07:15):

Getting

Dan Sugarman (01:07:15):

Some food. I know it's like a small thing, but I'm just like,

Eyal Levi (01:07:19):

Dude, it's not a small thing when it's multiplied over

Dan Sugarman (01:07:24):

Long

Eyal Levi (01:07:24):

Periods of time.

Dan Sugarman (01:07:25):

Yes. Insane compound effect.

Eyal Levi (01:07:27):

Any of these inconveniences or hardships that are exacerbated by travel are not a big deal if it's only two times a year. But if it's part of your lifestyle, then it becomes a problem. So it's something you got to address.

Dan Sugarman (01:07:46):

Absolutely. And I'm sitting here now in what you just said. I'm going, oh yeah, I just had to readjust to home life.

Eyal Levi (01:07:53):

It's weird, isn't it?

Dan Sugarman (01:07:54):

It's so weird, man. I just spent the last year readjusting to living out of a bag and being cool with not showering for whatever the hell comes along with touring. There's a lot of calibrating that has to go with being cool with that shit. Being home for the past five months has been unreal, dude. And the amount of progress and energy I'm able to harness and use instead of waste, I feel like there's so much energy and time that's just wasted on tour. If I feel creative musically, what could I do? Sit on stage and noodle. I don't have my full setup. I don't have. And beyond that, I'm a creature of habit, so I'm comfortable in my space, so I can't really pop in the back of the bus and get it out of me as easily as I would here. So there's something just about having the comforts around you that, I don't know, I'm going off on a tangent here, man, but I'm stoked that you have this ability to focus on you now. I know how important that is for you.

Eyal Levi (01:08:56):

It's huge. It's been life changing. And by the way, I do think that being able to be creative requires you to not be worried about other things. You need to be able to go into that state of mind. And so if your environment's constantly changing, if you're uncomfortable, all that stuff, it's hard to channel that. I've tried riding on tour before. Yeah, it's set up in the back of the bus kind of thing. It sucks.

Dan Sugarman (01:09:24):

We do it. We just finished. You

Eyal Levi (01:09:26):

Do it, you have to, but it's not ideal.

Dan Sugarman (01:09:30):

We finished two songs completely. It was like it done. I'm so fucking pissed about it. We had a deadline to where on the last tour we just did with Papa Roach in March, we had to finish songs to be mixed, mastered, completed to be released as singles for our five Finger Death Punch tour. We complete it under the gun, meet the deadline tour's, canceled Coronavirus Ruins the world.

New Speaker (01:09:54):

Yeah,

Dan Sugarman (01:09:54):

It was pretty rad. So that song's on hold,

Eyal Levi (01:09:58):

At least everyone's on the same page though.

Dan Sugarman (01:10:00):

Yeah. Yeah. At least Coronavirus wasn't like an Ice nine specific situation.

Eyal Levi (01:10:05):

That would've been way worse.

Dan Sugarman (01:10:07):

Yeah, I think the world would feel pretty bad about that.

Eyal Levi (01:10:10):

So where does production come into this? So we've covered that. You're very much into teaching people very much into guitar, very much into creating things. Do you have a passion for production or is it just a means to an end? It was with me. I never had a passion for it.

Dan Sugarman (01:10:28):

I'm not obsessed with it the same way that I want to know the ins and outs of an altered dominant chord and all the different ways to use it, and what could I do if I make a sharp 13? There's a different quality to it when I sit down in my studio to record, it's not so interesting, man. I'm like, these aren't words that I've ever fucking pulled on before. I am obsessed with the creative process and I'm obsessed with the result. And then the journey is the means to get there. And I've learned over the years to love the shit out of that. And in different situations, the journey can be frustrating. It can be rifled with bullshit and landmines, and it could also be some of the most rewarding shit that there is. So it's really, for me, I guess like you said, a means to an end. And I've gotten proficient and good enough to where, yeah, I mix for people. And I do very, very bullshit masters. If a real mastering engineer listen to my shit, they'd be like, Hey, what the fuck? But I do stuff for people because I figured it out over the course of a decade having to do it for myself. I feel like musicians are this forced, especially the modern day musician. You're like, if you're not a Swiss Army dude, you're fucked. You're dead in the water.

Eyal Levi (01:11:49):

Video just got added to that too.

Dan Sugarman (01:11:51):

Oh yeah. And I've been doing that for the same amount of time. And this is the other thing with Ice nine, they're tasking me with like, Hey, can you record a guitar lesson video explaining this thing? And then we'll hinge our entire EP campaign around a guitar contest based on the video that you shoot and edit and mix yourself. So the fact that they can rely on me for that type of shit, I also think is another thing that just provides value. And this is not me bigging myself up. This is me talking about the value that you provide to those around you really determines what you can do with your shit. That's really all I'm trying to say.

Eyal Levi (01:12:31):

I don't think it's bigging yourself up. I think a lot of people listening would love to know not just how to get a gig like that, but how to keep it.

Dan Sugarman (01:12:39):

Yeah. It is a maintenance thing and it's, which

Eyal Levi (01:12:41):

In some ways is even harder, dude.

Dan Sugarman (01:12:43):

It is, man. I constantly am asking myself, what do other members not want to do that I could do?

Eyal Levi (01:12:49):

That's what we ask ourselves about the competition.

Dan Sugarman (01:12:52):

And honestly, man, it's a business strategy. I'm quite literally red teaming myself and my team or my band. Are you aware of the term red teaming? I'm pretty sure you probably are that Nope. Red team go. Red team go. Heard that a thousand fucking times in your life.

Eyal Levi (01:13:06):

Yes.

Dan Sugarman (01:13:07):

Military, when they're practicing will create a blue team, red team, all same side military, all American, whatever the fuck country you want to say they are. Red team and blue team. The blue team's job will be to protect a perimeter. Red team's job is to infiltrate the perimeter to expose weaknesses. Is the red team's job to kill the blue team? No. It's to expose the weaknesses so that they can step out and go, the military need to get better at this.

(01:13:33):

So it's a matter of red teaming yourself. It's a matter of asking the questions and probing to poke the holes, not to be a piece of shit, but to solidify the perimeter, to infiltrate your own shit to make it better. So I'm constantly just probing and poking holes. And a lot of people, and I've dealt with this, you were saying before, I clash with everyone, man. A lot of people have a hard time working with me because of the way my brain works. I'm sitting here obsessed with looking for problems, and people think that I'm focused on the negative, but what they don't understand is that the rate at which I shift between seeing problem to solving problem, that's where shit changes. I like to see the problem and then focus on solving it, where a lot of people, their tendency would be to not look at the problem or to only see the problem. Do you know what I'm saying? A little bit.

Eyal Levi (01:14:23):

Yeah. So do you think that what's working about your current relationship with the band is that they already think at that level? So you're kind of in your own element in a way,

Dan Sugarman (01:14:36):

Yes, to a certain degree. Everyone is autonomous. We're all operating on our own shit because we've all done our time, so to speak, and we've all earned the seat at the table, I guess you could say. And I mean, if there was enough times where you didn't meet requirements, that would've happened already in your career and you wouldn't have been invited to the table. So I think there's a certain level of just understanding everyone's there. We've all done the grind. I joined this band, dude, not knowing any of the fucking members. Ricky, our other guitar player, he's also a vocalist of this band. Hawk used to be this or the apocalypse. You've probably heard of them actually amazingly. And I love talking to Ricky about this. Chris Adler produced their record.

Eyal Levi (01:15:21):

Interesting. You

Dan Sugarman (01:15:22):

Remember that vaguely.

(01:15:23):

It was nuts. It was like 2009 or something. And this is where networking and maintaining friendships and just staying close to the fire if you want to stay warm, really comes into play. I toured with Ricky in 2009, 2010 on Over the Limit Tour. It was my first tour with his blood runs black. Literally 10 years later. Spencer needs a guitar player and is asking all the band members, does anyone know anyone who's a good guitar player? And Ricky throws my name in the hat first. Spencer reaches out to me on Instagram and I'm getting flown out to Salem to start rehearsing for tour a few weeks after that. Just like that. Just like that. And it's because I proved something to Ricky on that tour. And then the 10 years between then kept relevant enough or kept meeting requirements or living.

Eyal Levi (01:16:09):

Did you guys stay friends?

Dan Sugarman (01:16:11):

We were friends, but we weren't like

Eyal Levi (01:16:12):

Friends

Dan Sugarman (01:16:13):

Kicking it if he was coming into town.

Eyal Levi (01:16:15):

Yeah.

Dan Sugarman (01:16:16):

I didn't go to shows if he was around.

Eyal Levi (01:16:18):

Not Capital F Friends.

Dan Sugarman (01:16:21):

We are what I call homies.

Eyal Levi (01:16:23):

Yeah, okay.

Dan Sugarman (01:16:23):

You know what I mean? And now we're fucking best buds. I love that guy to death, but that's because we spend months out of the year together on the road. But joining a band with a bunch of people you don't know, you're like, you're a wild card entering a preconceived balanced homeostasis. Everything is as it's supposed to be.

New Speaker (01:16:46):

And

Dan Sugarman (01:16:46):

I'm walking into a situation, like I said, the wild card. Hopefully I don't bring in too much temperature or heat and then fuck up everything and then kill everything, or I don't fuck it up with my energy or whatever. So I came into, again, it is the same thing that I do in a session. I came to serve the role that I was offered, and that role has constantly been evolving because of my, I guess, willingness to do the work, I think is really what it is.

Eyal Levi (01:17:14):

So one thing I've noticed is that a lot of my most productive relationships with people in the business are relationships that go years and years back. The biggest opportunities I've had, for the most part, the biggest gigs I've gotten, just the biggest shit for the most part has been stuff that took a long time to develop. And I mean years, maybe a decade, maybe more like it was very rarely people that I just met sometimes, but very rarely.

Dan Sugarman (01:17:50):

Do you think it's because the size of the opportunity can only be met with 10 years of proof?

Eyal Levi (01:17:56):

Yes. I think that's a big part of it, actually. So I think that in some ways, for the most part, when you're a lot younger, you're just not going to have ammunition to even get the serious attention of heavy hitters other than, yeah, maybe they want to sign your band or something, which is cool. But that's still, regardless of what anybody thinks, you're still not on an even playing field at all.

Dan Sugarman (01:18:25):

That's a foot in the door.

Eyal Levi (01:18:27):

It's a foot in the door. What I mean is even playing field type scenarios where we're working together on something or where it's not an exploitative situation. When you're a young band, first of all, I didn't think there's nothing wrong with that, but you got to pay your dues. But I'm just saying it's not the same thing. And yes, I think the size of the opportunity determines the access. But also, yeah, you're right. Having a decade to prove yourself does a lot. I think that just having staying power keeps doors open for you. If they didn't take you seriously, year one or two or three, if you're still around 15 years later, they know that something had to go right

Dan Sugarman (01:19:15):

Or you're just fucking crazy. Or both. As you're sitting here saying this, I'm looking back at all these friends that I've made over the course of decade plus of touring, and some of them are the most amazing drummers, or no vocalist is better than this guy, but now he works at a hardware store and has two kids,

New Speaker (01:19:35):

And

Dan Sugarman (01:19:36):

It's just like, what is different in me that allowed me to keep on the path? It's not being better or smarter. It's literally being dumber and crazier. It's literally

Eyal Levi (01:19:49):

More obsessed.

Dan Sugarman (01:19:50):

Sure, sure. But there's a cognitive dison in that. It's like in knowing I'm going to put 10 years into this knowing that half the people don't get shit. And if at the end of this 10 years I get something, it might be like music money, which is nothing. Do you know what I'm saying? Kind of.

Eyal Levi (01:20:05):

Yeah. So it's the kind of thing where it's really weird because for instance, if I had a kid, which I don't and I don't want any, but if I did and they said that they wanted to be a rockstar or something, I would have to fight myself very hard not to tell them that it's a stupid fucking idea and don't do it. Just don't. Because the odds are so rockstar. Anything like that, it's such a dumb thing to try to do because it pretty much doesn't ever work. The fact that we know people that it's worked for or becoming a successful producer, successful entrepreneur, whatever, any of those types of things, we are kind of in a bubble because we're surrounded by the very few people who have done it. And I think also people who listen to this kind of podcast or watch nail the mix, they also get kind of wowed by that bubble. And so they start to think that there's more people who have pulled it off than there actually are. You're getting a very bad sample size of the entire population. You can get kind of persuaded by it and tricked into thinking that it's way, I guess, way more common than it actually is. In reality, it's super uncommon and it's close to impossible.

Dan Sugarman (01:21:30):

It is. It absolutely

Eyal Levi (01:21:31):

Is. But it's not a stupidity thing either. I know what you mean. But at the same time, the people I know who have stuck around and have done cool shit are generally not idiots.

Dan Sugarman (01:21:46):

Yes, I absolutely agree. Dude, I a hundred percent agree with you. But in myself, I feel this. Hold my beer, watch this in doing the thing.

Eyal Levi (01:21:56):

I think it's risk tolerance.

Dan Sugarman (01:21:57):

Yeah. That's really what it is. And that's the cognitive dissonance I'm talking about. It's like I know, and I knew this, I got an independent study out of high school. My mom was at this point diagnosed with brain cancer, and my band was starting to tour. So I had two reasons to get on the road, and I knew that I had at least a 10 year runway before I'd be able to turn it into fucking anything while I simultaneously had to lie to my dad that this is going great, this is awesome. This is what I'm meant to do. I'm going to be doing this forever. And I'm sitting there in my mind knowing you are eating shit for 10 years and that's fine with me because of that. Hold my beer, watch this thing. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. The guy who says, hold my beer, watch this, and does a flip off of a cliff, I'm impressed by that guy. You know what I mean? I wouldn't do it. I'm afraid of that shit. But there's something, there's like endearing about that. And I think that's the thing that people want to stay close to. And I think there's also something really cool about you opening the doors and letting people surround themselves and not be accessible to them. Sure. You're aware of the whole notion of the five people you surround yourself with is who you become. Bullshit. I think that's really what it is.

Eyal Levi (01:23:13):

It's not bullshit.

Dan Sugarman (01:23:14):

It's not. It's not. But you probably caught the pattern. I tend to downplay anything that's helpful for me because I always find it easier to talk about.

Eyal Levi (01:23:25):

Well, I think a lot of people tend to talk shit about those kinds of ideas, but they're wrong

Dan Sugarman (01:23:32):

Basically.

Eyal Levi (01:23:33):

Yeah,

Dan Sugarman (01:23:33):

That's fair. And I will take accountability for that. Dude, I'm so fucking wrong. But it doesn't mean it doesn't feel funny to talk about.

Eyal Levi (01:23:40):

It does feel kind of funny to talk about. It does. So I've pretty much gotten over it, but I understand, especially in the music world, talking about that kind of stuff can be kind of weird. So I get it, but really everyone I know who's stuck around thinks about those kinds of things. So it's really not that weird.

Dan Sugarman (01:24:01):

It's true, man. And I also see, going back on the thing we were talking about before, the canvas strategy concept, I sort of see that too as another one of the patterns that for those who have made it through the gauntlet and kind of got on the other side of that line, I feel like that thing, whether they're calling it that or not, I think that's kind of a common thread too, the willingness to just do the grunt work. Because you know that if you humble yourself to be around people that you can learn from, you will learn from them, and then you're in the room with them and then all of a sudden an opportunity happens.

Eyal Levi (01:24:32):

So real quick, speaking of risk tolerance, I just want to throw this out there. I don't think there's anything wrong with not having a high risk tolerance. So you're talking about some dude you knew who was the most incredible drummer, but it didn't happen for them because they didn't have the right personality or whatever, meaning they weren't, they're too risk averse or whatnot. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I think that the problem is when people don't realize that and then they torture themselves over it.

Dan Sugarman (01:25:05):

Absolutely. And I also think that there's something in people taking, I don't want to say taking accountability is good, but when you take it and make it your own and you blame yourself for not going after your dreams, I think you just sabotage and defeat yourself even more.

Eyal Levi (01:25:19):

I agree.

Dan Sugarman (01:25:20):

I am 100% on board with the belief that common sense and common knowledge comes from common people who do common shit, go to college, get a good job, make sure you get married by 30. That's all shit that people tell you to do that when I look at their life, I'm depressed for them. Do you know what I'm saying?

Eyal Levi (01:25:43):

Are they depressed though?

Dan Sugarman (01:25:44):

I don't give a shit. Fair enough.

Eyal Levi (01:25:47):

Well, it's kind of like if you saw yourself in that situation, you'd be miserable.

Dan Sugarman (01:25:52):

That's what I'm saying. They can be happy and I can be happy that they're happy. But if I look at them and go, oh, they made the choice that I could have made and this is where they ended up, how would I feel if I was there? It'd be terrible. So this is something that I talk about with my students a lot. And interestingly enough, since joining Ice nine, there's this new influx of young students who are 15, 16, 17, getting ready to leave high school, go to college, and should I do what my parents say or should I commit to this band thing? And it becomes such a struggle because for me, you had mentioned this Plan B thing before my Plan A, or you know what? My plan is just to have a guitar in my hands. So all of my Plan A through Z are all in line with that.

(01:26:34):

Whatever the fuck I end up doing, there's a guitar in my hands, so I'm satisfied. And it just so happened that in doing 10 plus years, I was like nine and a half years with this butter ons black and touring and loving it, and then learning to hate it and learning to just deal with it. My priorities shifted to, I love teaching. I love sharing my knowledge and my love for the guitar and seeing other people plant that seed in themselves and take it somewhere. So for me, there's something really, really just liberating in the fact that doing you pulls you outside of living up to other people. Shit, I don't really know what it is I'm trying to say with that, but that was a really big part of me kind of taking the move and stepping outside of his Byron's black. But yeah, man,

Eyal Levi (01:27:16):

Well, you're being true to yourself. I think that that's what matters in the whole equation, whether you're risk averse or not risk averse or would be depressed with a normal life or would feel good with a normal life, doesn't really matter as long as you're true to yourself about whatever it is. I do know people who have that normal life you're talking about that would make me want to kill myself. But they're happy. They're very happy with that. And I don't think they're faking it. I really don't think they're faking it. And they'll say things like, I wish I did something cool you. And it's like, no, you don't. Don't actually mean that. And I don't think they actually mean that. I just think grass is always greener, but as long as you're staying true to yourself, that's what makes a difference. That's what won't grind you. The thing that I've noticed is the people who are the most miserable are the ones who really wanted to take the risk, but were just pussies. Yeah, dude. Or the other way around where really they just wanted security, but for some egotistical reason or some weird shit, they had to prove they took half-assed risks and it didn't work out because they weren't committed enough to the risk because it wasn't really in their character to take that kind of risk.

Dan Sugarman (01:28:39):

And this is what I was kind of saying before about the accountability thing is I don't blame the person who didn't take the risk because I don't either. Because the person who didn't take the risk probably subscribed to common knowledge from their parents and common sense. Do you know what I mean?

Eyal Levi (01:28:53):

Yeah. Maybe they don't want it though,

Dan Sugarman (01:28:55):

Or purely they don't want it for sure. But I definitely think that there's something in the whole discussion of common sense.

Eyal Levi (01:29:04):

I agree with you.

Dan Sugarman (01:29:05):

The shit that everyone's parents listening to this is probably telling them there's a subconscious thing that they're like, yeah, that's why I'm listening to this podcast because this is not common sense. And these aren't common people who do the common shit. This is anything but that. And I think you opening the door, and this is what I want to do, this is the whole canvas strategy thing, opening the door and letting people in on that and letting people know that it not only is possible, but in us discussing how fucked and challenging it really is so that they know it's not rainbows and butterflies. It's a lot of blood. It's a lot of fucking pop tires and canned soup, dude.

Eyal Levi (01:29:44):

A lot of that stuff. And then also at the end of the day, if you want to do something really, really cool, you kind of have to accept the fact that there's no set path really ever.

New Speaker (01:29:57):

Yes.

Eyal Levi (01:29:59):

Even if you know that being in a band, there's some things that bands do, they go on tour, they put out records, but really as far, that's kind of where the similarities end in a way. Because to really stand out, you pretty much have to do something that hasn't been invented yet, kind of like you guys are doing. And it's the same, all bands wear makeup though,

Dan Sugarman (01:30:21):

Every band that I know. I'm just kidding. It's fucking ridiculous.

Eyal Levi (01:30:25):

No, I definitely think you guys are doing your own thing. But it's uncharted territory, no matter, no matter what, whether you're a producer, whether you're entrepreneur, whether you're a musician. And so when there's uncharted territory, there's no way that it could possibly be part of the common knowledge. It doesn't go together. It can't be common knowledge and also uncharted territory. And in order to do something new, it has to be uncharted territory. It's by definition of being creative, creating something that means it didn't exist before. So it would be impossible for it to be part of common knowledge. You just got to be okay with that.

Dan Sugarman (01:31:03):

And on the risk tolerance thing, if you aren't willing to whole ass this thing, if you're going to half-ass it and maybe also go to college to get a communications degree, you're fucking yourself. It's not because you shouldn't get a communications degree. It's that the people, in my opinion, and you can totally disagree, I'm sure everyone listening to this will have their own opinion, but it's a full blown undying commitment that I think allows you to get past that 10 layer gauntlet to be that one dude at the end of the flying who made it somehow.

Eyal Levi (01:31:34):

Well, you're going up against people who will go that hard. That's part of it too.

Dan Sugarman (01:31:40):

That's the thing. At the end of that, you're now in a category with all the people who have done that too. And then there's, without you even knowing it, there's another level that you have to get through to get to the next phase, and it doesn't really end. And that in my, again, unprofessional opinion, I think is the levels of a career, like a band being at a certain level is their willingness to or unwillingness to do X, Y, and Z To get beyond that, it's really interesting, man. This is a topic I have not discussed with anyone, so I'm really enjoying this dude. Really? Yeah.

Eyal Levi (01:32:12):

You want to just talk about this shit all the time? Well,

Dan Sugarman (01:32:15):

Yeah, dude, because you're are on podcast,

Eyal Levi (01:32:19):

So this doesn't come up in interviews and stuff. I don't consider this an interview, by the way.

Dan Sugarman (01:32:23):

No, this is a hangout.

Eyal Levi (01:32:24):

Sometimes I'll invite people on and be happy to do the interview, and I'll feel insulted that they said that. It's just an ego thing, but I, I'm like half kidding about this doesn't come up in interviews, but at the same time, I'm actually curious. It does it.

Dan Sugarman (01:32:41):

No, not really, dude. The inner workings is not really a discussion. And also, I don't even know what this topic is. It's like the mentality that goes into it. I mean, honestly, this is a topic and these are discussions that I have in my podcast. That's what mindframe is about. But these aren't topics that I have casually. And dude, you've managed to make this feel very casual, so fuck Yeah.

Eyal Levi (01:33:05):

It is casual.

Dan Sugarman (01:33:06):

It totally is. And I really, really appreciate that. They are not always casual.

Eyal Levi (01:33:10):

So question about interviews. Do you feel like that's kind of a dated shitty format? I think it is because we've gotten past the point of needing information out of people, so we can so easily look it up that who even needs that. There's pretty much just reciting information that's easily, that you can easily find who even has time for that shit anymore.

Dan Sugarman (01:33:36):

It sort of feels like the newspaper when you could listen to a radio show or something.

Eyal Levi (01:33:42):

Yeah, exactly.

Dan Sugarman (01:33:43):

Yeah. To me, this is the best format of getting to know the background and history of someone. And when it's an interview that's either cut and dry and they're like, what's your favorite song on the new record? Or it's like a written one where you're beholden to, I got an hour to type up this bullshit. Let's see what I can get in. You know what I mean? It's not very real and conducive.

Eyal Levi (01:34:06):

This is our heaviest music, yet we went to the deepest, darkest place we have ever been before.

Dan Sugarman (01:34:13):

Yes, it is so heavy.

Eyal Levi (01:34:14):

The double bass is fast, the guitars are chugging.

Dan Sugarman (01:34:18):

He screams loud. It is not going to be valuable to fucking anyone. And truth be told, I don't read them. I'll comb through.

Eyal Levi (01:34:29):

I don't think anybody does.

Dan Sugarman (01:34:30):

Yeah. I'll comb through and look for a question that I'm interested in and then skim the answer. And I'm like, all right, this guy's just, he's responding. It's a fucking journal entry. I'm not interested in that.

Eyal Levi (01:34:41):

It's not 1998,

Dan Sugarman (01:34:43):

Dude. I want it to be candid and casual and I want to feel like I'm getting to know someone differently versus being delivered a script. Right.

Eyal Levi (01:34:54):

And also, if you follow people who do interviews and do press, if you watch or listen to interviews or read from the same time period, it's all canned shit because they have to do 200 of these and the interviewers are asking them the same questions over and over and over again. There's no way that that format can possibly be interesting because by definition isn't interesting.

Dan Sugarman (01:35:20):

I mean, I think we're living proof of the future, man. There's a reason why podcasts are so fucking popular right now. They're exciting, they're different. They're exposing of, I mean, just us having the facial interaction of being able to actually see each other, which leads to a different type of response. That shit just can't be had in an interview. And even if it does, interviewer that has his shitty TVs company around the microphone, he's pretending to be someone.

Eyal Levi (01:35:49):

Yeah. It's like you're not Howard Stern dude.

Dan Sugarman (01:35:51):

Yeah. Everyone's pretending in that situation. So I fucking totally agree with you, man. Totally agree. And with Ice Nine specifically, it's particular type of questions that we get all the fucking time. So I'm over it, dude. The amount of times that I've responded that my favorite horror film is Austin Powers three is Beyond Me.

Eyal Levi (01:36:12):

So the question is, okay, so a band that's as big as you guys who has to do a ton of press, but you're sitting here kind of knowing that interviews aren't what they used to be, but you can't not do them. How do you make that work in your mind? Or how does the team make that work? It's just a necessary evil.

Dan Sugarman (01:36:35):

It's absolutely a necessary evil. And we have fun, dude, something that happened to Ice Nine Kills when me and Joe joined the band. Joe and I are fucking goofball idiots. Nothing we do is serious. Whenever we're off stage, we're joking. If you watch videos of us on stage, half the show, he and I are fucking with each other or dancing stupid or I'm kicking him in the nuts when he's playing. We're always messing around. So I think there's this certain quality of we are doing it tongue in cheek. Everything we say is tongue in cheek. We will look at each other and laugh about a response and then communicate with each other about that. We make it super real and like a candid experience. We don't have preloaded bullshit. Spencer will try to do that, and then Joe and I will jump in and fuck 'em up, and then we start laughing. You know what I mean? And there was one instance actually where one time that I didn't go on a tour with Ice Nine Kills. They did a cruise. Oh, Spencer's here right now. That's funny as fuck. So because we're doing this, they're going to go in the upstairs studio to do some vocals right now. But we were on a tour and bunch, apparently, and I get really, really, really boat sick. That's why I couldn't do the tour. I would've been spewing 24 7 would've been terrible.

Eyal Levi (01:37:51):

Dramamine doesn't help.

Dan Sugarman (01:37:53):

Oh dude,

Eyal Levi (01:37:54):

You're you're way beyond that.

Dan Sugarman (01:37:57):

I can mainline that shit and it wouldn't do anything.

Eyal Levi (01:37:59):

Got it.

Dan Sugarman (01:37:59):

Yeah. I'm just at Lost cause. But effectively, a bunch of dumb questions were asked, and Ricky and Pat and Joe would answer funny. And apparently I just heard about this after the fact, but Spencer was not stoked on that. He's like, we got to be serious. Got to be serious,

Eyal Levi (01:38:15):

Serious fan. Got to be serious.

Dan Sugarman (01:38:17):

Got to talk about murder and shit. But he got over it quick because if anyone thought that we take this shit serious when we go on stage and dress like a fucking Texas chainsaw massacre with a bunch of makeup, if I thought I was cool doing that, no one would give a shit. Dude. We know. It's funny.

Eyal Levi (01:38:39):

If people know that Cannibal Corps are just doing it for fun with their content, then pretty much everybody should realize that metal is just for fun.

Dan Sugarman (01:38:51):

That's the thing. And that's a newer thing for me, man, when I was in his Blood Runs black, a lot of my angst and anger was like, this needs to be better. I know we could write better music and out of fear of being canceled, I'm going to modulate the words a little bit. But I would submit songs to my band and they would be, what's a word I could use too? Cool. They would be literally too cool. Not blank enough for the band. Whatever the fuck word you want to use that I can't say.

Eyal Levi (01:39:26):

Yeah, there's a lot of 'em.

Dan Sugarman (01:39:28):

Yeah. That was really disheartening, man, for me to be like, oh, this is good and we can't use it of that. This is cool and you want it to be less cool to be on the record. And that just didn't jive with me because I was there to express myself, put the best form of myself out there, and frankly not serve the band. I was there to serve myself. And that created a lot of internal strife for me.

Eyal Levi (01:39:52):

Well, you just had to get into a situation where serving the band is serving yourself basically.

Dan Sugarman (01:39:59):

Yes, yes, yes. And the A BRB situation was very, it was similar to a certain degree with Ice Nine, with it being a visionary as Bud Runs Black was Lech the drummer. Everything was basically filtered through him. And it got to a point where he was managing my band Fallen Figure. So he trusted my writing. So the next records that I did with them, I did two records with them. I wrote 80% of all the music that came out when I was in the band because LCH trusted me. But what nobody knows is that for all those records, I submitted like 50 plus songs, and then eight of the 10 songs on the record are mine. But no one knows the other 42. And that thing, granted, I don't give a shit. It's not something that I need to say or boast about because it doesn't matter. That's just a part of the job. Me sitting there and submitting papers to be graded as a passing grade or not was detrimental to my confidence and happiness and contentment being there. And it sort of went to make it a kind of toxic situation for me. So being in a situation where we know it's fun, we do shit for a crowd. We're not writing songs for other people, we're writing them for ourselves, but we know if we're having fun, if we're laughing when we're doing it, then we know it's good.

Eyal Levi (01:41:15):

Question for you though. Don't you think that one of the skills that you should develop as a musician who's in a band or a producer or whatever, is the ability to have your shit cut and not let it get toxic?

Dan Sugarman (01:41:28):

Oh, absolutely. That's what I was saying about me having shifted my head space, being I nine to where I don't take it too seriously.

Eyal Levi (01:41:37):

Got it. So you evolved your think. You matured basically to a place where you were cool with that. It's really important to be able to do that.

Dan Sugarman (01:41:47):

Yeah, because being told that this is really good, dude, and then that goes and plays into my ego, and then they're like, but we can't use it because of that. And then I'm like, whoa, what the fuck? And then all of a sudden I'm confused. I can't look at you in the eye because what you say doesn't make sense to me. You know what I mean? It just creates this environment that was really fucked up for me for many reasons.

Eyal Levi (01:42:08):

It sounds to me though, in your current band, no one would say, that's too good. We can't use it. However, no. The first thing you talked about, or one of the first things was putting all this work into that song with all the tempo changes and it just not being right for Spencer. So obviously you have to be able to have your shit not get accepted. This part of the gig.

Dan Sugarman (01:42:32):

It's a huge part of it. It's also taking those hits with a smile and being able to just be like, right, being problem focused, and then immediately solution focused. So if I'm being told that this isn't going to work, I could be like, fuck, dude, I just spent the whole day putting that together. What does he even want? He can't even explain what he wants. What am I supposed to do? I could totally let that happen and just spiral and my thoughts turn to feelings, and then I have beliefs about the situation, and then all the sessions suck after that because I believe X, Y, Z. Or I could shift it to be like, alright, well what do you want? What could I do right now that would make this what you want? And it's really just a matter of me reformulating the question several times over reiterating it, how many times I need to get whatever answer I need to where I get some type of ingredient.

Eyal Levi (01:43:23):

Yeah, man. Honestly, I think that that feeling of, I just worked all day on this and then it's not right. Could be frustrating. I mean, it is, but at the same time, if you didn't go through that, you probably wouldn't get to the point where that next tweak that makes a difference would come from. So instead of letting it be frustrating, just look at it as one of the building blocks or another step in the right direction.

Dan Sugarman (01:43:53):

That is quite frankly, the shift that happened with my wiring in my head.

Eyal Levi (01:43:58):

It's hard though. Easier said than done.

Dan Sugarman (01:44:01):

Oh, big time, dude. But it's really a matter of so many things wouldn't happen if everything before. It wasn't exactly the way it was. There's this

Eyal Levi (01:44:09):

Exactly,

Dan Sugarman (01:44:09):

Your current situation is the sum of every decision and indecision you've ever made. What the fuck kind of crazy sentence is that? That's an insane thing to recognize, but it's crazy truth. And I think that's really just become a huge part of how I operate now.

Eyal Levi (01:44:25):

Was the shift quick?

Dan Sugarman (01:44:27):

No, no, dude, it actually occurred.

Eyal Levi (01:44:30):

I mean, okay. I know that you're talking about one project that was 10 years ago versus a project that's now, and the difference. But what I mean is, is it something where you made the shift overnight after about 10 years of being frustrated?

Dan Sugarman (01:44:47):

I actually do think that occurred. And this could be a whole other huge fucking discussion you and I have. But yeah, dude presence was a really big part of it for me. Learning how to just stop getting consumed with worrying about the future or being bummed about the past. I know it's, again, more foofy shit that we're going to both go, nah, but it's good. It's not, not foofy, not foofy, but we know it's foofy. But we'll both admit it's not

Eyal Levi (01:45:15):

Slayer's, not

Dan Sugarman (01:45:16):

Right slayers. But cannibal corpses, apparently you just said no,

Eyal Levi (01:45:20):

No, they just don't actually believe in zombies.

Dan Sugarman (01:45:25):

Right.

Eyal Levi (01:45:26):

And they didn't actually want to kill women. They just wrote about serial killers.

Dan Sugarman (01:45:31):

It's very ironic, the similarities that I see between this band and that topic wise.

Eyal Levi (01:45:37):

That's why I brought them up.

Dan Sugarman (01:45:38):

It's very ironic, dude. The amount of times that there's just hilarious murder jokes made that shouldn't land but do is just like much, it's

Eyal Levi (01:45:50):

Not serious.

Dan Sugarman (01:45:51):

It's not serious at all. But what audience would murder jokes land on ice nine kills. Yeah,

Eyal Levi (01:45:59):

Einstein kills cannibal corpse. Like metal fans.

Dan Sugarman (01:46:02):

Metal fans. That's fair. That's fair. Spot on. After leaving, as blood runs black, I left as Blood runs black because my mom's brain tumor came back for the third time and we were given an expiration date. And I'm like, I had just toured through nine years of her having brain cancer, and when I'm being told that she has less than a few months to live, I'm not going to be on tour for that. Right, fair enough. So I left the band, stayed at home to help take care of her and be her caregiver. And it forced me to see myself, man. It forced me feel everything and not be consumed with the day-to-day tasks of tour. You don't get to ever have a moment for yourself on tour. And when you do, it's taking that shit and then someone knocks on the door. You know what I mean? It's so rare.

Eyal Levi (01:46:48):

Must have given you some perspective.

Dan Sugarman (01:46:51):

Oh, certainly, man. And it really really just forced me into making friends with myself and not the second I got off of tour and I had time with myself, I realized that I had made myself into an enemy. Right? Making

Eyal Levi (01:47:03):

Friends with yourself. What's that like?

Dan Sugarman (01:47:06):

I, dude, I'm still one working on it, man. But over the course of those years, and as Boone's Black, I had eroded the trust in myself, my confidence, my belief in am I a musician or am I just good at filling the role, what I've been doing for so long? It forces all these questions. And I went on this quest to just figure my shit out. And at this point in time, I found this book, Eckhart Toll is the author's, this book called A New Earth. Have you heard of it?

Eyal Levi (01:47:33):

I've heard of him.

Dan Sugarman (01:47:34):

Dude. As foofy, as it Fucking Gets Man, as foofy as it gets, but changed my life and immediately gave me some semblance of understanding and acceptance and peace with the situation. And I immediately turned the page and started writing my first instrumental record, and then that spiraled into a second one and on and on

Eyal Levi (01:47:56):

Somehow it triggered a renewed sense of purpose.

Dan Sugarman (01:48:00):

Yes. It basically gave me insight into why I do what I do and how to realign with why I need to do that. And that was the impetus to kick me into over gear or overdrive and start to again align with just shit that is, I think I said that before, not getting pissed at a situation and just like, okay, that's what it is. That was a very big part of those studies that I did and I read that book every other day. It is the type of thing where you just open up a random page and you can read a paragraph and walk away with something and somehow it's the type of book that whatever random page you open on is exactly what you needed to see. It's a super weird, you're either going to read it and be into it or you're going to be like, this is bullshit.

(01:48:46):

But either way, I got something out of it and it really helped me move forward and change the way that I operate, helped me with my reactivity and just kind of being there instead of, how do I say, this helped me focus on being, instead of doing as lame as that's going to sound, it really was just that man. It allowed me to just chill and be okay with like, all right, I'm not somewhere else in the world every day playing to a thousand new people that I've never met. I'm here spoonfeeding soup into my mom's mouth. It's like a very big difference.

Eyal Levi (01:49:20):

How did you make the shift in, I guess, being future minded without being, I guess future obsessed? I don't know what the right way to put it is. Obviously you got to have big plans. You have to think ahead. You kind of got to play 3D chess to make it through life, but at the same time, like you're saying, if you overfocus on that, then you're going to lose the moment and then you probably won't achieve your goals anyways. But it's a hard thing to do because you're kind of asking your brain to go in two completely different directions. You know what I'm saying?

Dan Sugarman (01:49:59):

Yes. I'm trying to think of a simple way to say this. What

Eyal Levi (01:50:02):

About the complex way to say it?

Dan Sugarman (01:50:04):

If I am walking across the room to get a book, my primary purpose is to walk. My secondary purpose is to get the book, but my brain tells me, get the book motherfucker instead of just being there to walk. And that's just the outcome of doing the thing. So by focusing on the thing and doing the thing, well, you just get there,

Eyal Levi (01:50:24):

But how do you know you're going in the right direction to get that book? This is very metaphysical bullshit now that we're talking about. I mean, if you want to get the book, if you just walk and you make that your primary purpose, then who the hell knows where you're going to end up? If

Dan Sugarman (01:50:38):

Your primary purpose is to walk as good as you can in a straight line directly towards that book, you're going to get to that book, I guess is sort of my thought. And dude, this is all just different perspectives and how you approach and view life, but for me, aligning with what I want right now and working from right now versus I want safety, happiness, and security in the future because of the anxiousness and fear I felt in my past when I didn't have that.

Eyal Levi (01:51:08):

That makes sense.

Dan Sugarman (01:51:09):

That's a completely different, I'll get there. I'll be moving in the direction, but how I get there might be different. The way I feel about it might be different. I certainly won't enjoy my left foot going in front of my right foot. I don't know. It's a small shift and it's very, very silly if you really look at it and you can ask these logical questions you're asking, and it's a conversation to have, but it comes down to just a way of operating, I guess. I could absolutely. And I do. I bounce back and forth all the time, man.

Eyal Levi (01:51:39):

Maybe that's key is bouncing back and forth.

Dan Sugarman (01:51:42):

Yeah. Oh, certainly. Dude, if you live like an enlightened monk, good luck paying your taxes.

Eyal Levi (01:51:51):

Yeah, exactly. Maybe that is the answers, being able to shift back and forth. I wonder, does that help you play on stage at all being able to change your focus? I feel like when people overthink what they're about to play, I guess being too future minded, that's when they start to make mistakes and trip themselves up.

Dan Sugarman (01:52:12):

Yeah, dude, one of my biggest solutions to that problem is instead of thinking about the thing as it's happening right before it happens, just smile. And for some reason, for some fucking reason, it just filters whatever anxiety is about to come through and I don't hit that wall or my fingers don't decide to fuck me and do something else. Freeze

Eyal Levi (01:52:31):

Up.

Dan Sugarman (01:52:32):

Yeah, it's a very weird thing. Forget what they're doing a thing. And honestly, dude, I feel like I'm just kind of like it's because I know I'm anxious about the thing and I kind of just smile at the thought instead of getting mad at the thought or being like, yeah, you're right, this part's hard. Just, yeah, here it comes. Cool. I don't know what it is, man, but for me, that's been a very huge part. I used to deal with a lot of stage anxiety too.

Eyal Levi (01:52:55):

When did you start thinking this

Dan Sugarman (01:52:58):

Kind of around what I'm saying, kind of around when I left as blood runs black to take care of my mom and I was forced to shovel dirt all the time, proverbially speaking. I mean, it wasn't exactly that, but that's what it felt like to me. So it's sort of going back to living minimally and doing menial tasks and finding ways to just be there and enjoy it. And it allowed me to learn to do that to where I evolved mentally and physically enough to where whatever my reputation might've been at the end of his blood runs black, changed to a certain degree to where I was once again, for some reason perceived as a viable, relevant option for a band that's really fucking relevant. I don't know how that happened, but there's definitely something in the perspective shift. And again, I wouldn't going back, I wouldn't say it was exactly overnight, but it was literally I'm there helping my mom and I found this book in her library that she's never read and for some reason, and one of the first things that says on the book is a lot of people find this book because it just stumbles into their life for no reason.

(01:54:04):

And it's just like a foofy as shit, my man. It's just

Eyal Levi (01:54:08):

Foof. So then question. So you developed this skill while you're not touring ring, not having the chance to actually see if you developed it or not. So when you finally did get back into it and you had to play that first show, was there any fear?

Dan Sugarman (01:54:31):

There's some other things that happened between that I feel like I should mention because it wasn't directly that book. That book cleared me of my, it absolved me of how I felt about shit, and I was able to move forward and redesign whatever I was doing. And that's when I shifted my gear of like, oh, I'm not touring musician guy. I'm a teacher. I help people. That's what I do. So I started focusing on that and that's when opportunities arise. And I aligned with this human, I don't know what he is even, this is my ex-business partner, Parker forever fret. Yeah,

Eyal Levi (01:55:05):

Humanoid,

Dan Sugarman (01:55:06):

Yeah, humanoid shape. I don't know what he is. Life form. Some life form, some biological thing. Actually, I don't even fucking know. But it bubbled into my life that that was going on to where I shifted to that I moved from Los Angeles to get a house with him in Texas and Austin, Texas, fully 100% obsessive, committed day in, day out working on this shit, or I was, the amount of work, the amount of expectation, the amount of goal preparation and target planning and all the shit that went into it fucked me up. It literally made me, I don't want to use the word insane, it's the kind of disrespectful to anyone who actually feels that way, but it drove me fucking nuts. And I actually started for the first time, and let me take this back. I had my first anxiety attack the day my mom died.

(01:55:54):

I tried to leave my house to go on a drive and I blacked out when I was driving and I was like, what the fuck was that? And I was terrified. Didn't know what it was. Moved to Texas a year later, whatever, moving on, things are starting to crumble with the company, and I start having these panic attacks. Dude, I would try to go in my car to get groceries and I'd black out and find myself on the floor in fetal position, just what the fuck is going on? And then I started having ridiculously, ridiculously suicidal thoughts, insanely depressed. And you could say like, well, what about that really good book, brother? What about that book you like so much? And it's like I lost sight of shit because I was focused on building something for the future and focused on how I was slighted the day before. Right,

Eyal Levi (01:56:44):

Fair enough.

Dan Sugarman (01:56:44):

So it spiraled into this thing where I felt like, and this also plays back into just childhood shit of just abandonment problems and whatever the fuck, but just feeling my dude that I trusted was abandoning me, betraying me. And this is shit that I've unpacked more recently, but I think it spiraled into me just not being able to exist, dude.

Eyal Levi (01:57:03):

Well, it sounds to me like it's probably a combination of things going on at the same time, mom dying, the band not working out the way you wanted it to business, not working out the way you wanted it to. I think there's a limited amount of hits that a person can take without semi cracking and having to reset. So it sounds to me not just one thing, but multiple things back to back to back.

Dan Sugarman (01:57:29):

Certainly a series of things that all had a compound effect, but it got to a point, man, where I was planning the end, dude, it was bad. And this is at a point when I had the opportunity to renew for health insurance.

Eyal Levi (01:57:45):

Well, that could be one way that planning for the future is bad.

Dan Sugarman (01:57:48):

Yeah, yeah. That's when you should be in the now, my dude.

Eyal Levi (01:57:51):

Yeah,

Dan Sugarman (01:57:54):

It was fucked, dude. And it's a place that I never want to be in again, and it's a place that I know I won't be in again and fuck. So I was in a situation where I was having crazy suicidal thoughts and I needed to reach out to find therapy. I needed to fucking talk to someone, and I needed to get health insurance to do so. And the health marketplace had some anomalous bullshit to where all of my paperwork just vanished into their system, and I waited six months to get a response from them. If I could get a therapist and I'm in this time period, cool healthcare system, you might be the reason I kill myself. So I felt like, again, betrayed and feeling like I can't rely on anyone else other than myself, just like I stumbled on that book in my mom's library as I'm in her room helping feed her. I stumbled on this shit called Wim Hof, and I know Matt Helper talked to you about it.

Eyal Levi (01:58:51):

Oh yeah, I do it.

Dan Sugarman (01:58:52):

And I credit that shit with quite literally saving my life within three days of committing to it and doing the multiple sets of three in a day, the cold shower, the mindset training. Within three days of doing that, it stopped. I was present. And then beyond that, I had some crazy shit happen to me as far as if people look into the Wim Hof stuff, which I'm sure they have, because you've spoken about it, you could find that DMT can be accessed through your brain by doing the Wim Hof method. I went to some fucking places and heard some things, dude, it was nuts. And I had one instance where the next day stop smoking weed, stopped eating like shit, started working out for hours a day, and it was like that for six months straight, and it was like something just switched to me. I was just told I didn't need weed anymore. You need to start taking care of yourself. You need to start preparing for something.

Eyal Levi (01:59:51):

Just a switch got flipped.

Dan Sugarman (01:59:53):

I was a switch that God flipped man, and all of a sudden I was again prepped to be the right person in the right place at the right time. Three days before my birthday on February 19th, Spencer shoots me a text or an Instagram message. It's even weirder than that. He adds me on Instagram. I screenshot it, send to my girlfriend, I go, this is weird. Ironically, to peel it back a little bit more, ice Nine Kills is the sole obsession of my ex-business partner's girlfriend. Her favorite band in the world is Ice Nine Kills. I'm now a poster on the fucking Wall's. Appropriate. Yeah. I'm now a poster on her wall, so it feels pretty good.

Eyal Levi (02:00:29):

That sounds pretty appropriate.

Dan Sugarman (02:00:32):

Yeah, dude, it's fucking ironic. But basically all this shit happened to me. I was at the end and I started to build myself back up and all of a sudden, the one band that was always annoying to me and dangled in front of me because her band was offered to me to join, it just felt like, what the fuck? Opportunities are coming my way. Why do these things bubble up when I need them? What is going on here? And all the shit shifted and switched in my mind, like I said, to put me in a place to where instead of getting that message and reacting, I would have like, nah, I shouldn't tour. And this was at a point where I was just a couple months into not having blackouts and I still hadn't had the balls to leave my house for any extended period of time.

(02:01:17):

A grocery store visit was the extent of it. And he's like, yo, you want to go on a three month tour? Fuck it. Fuck. And that's why I said, I was like, fuck it. I'm doing the work. I'm prepping for this. This is what I do. This is what I focus on, and if I don't live up to this now, I will never know what could have been. And it's kind of the thing that we were talking about before, the risk risk tolerance thing. I was at a point where I didn't have tolerance, shouldn't have risked it. Just fucking did it just to see, it's a weird thing.

Eyal Levi (02:01:48):

Well, I mean, why shouldn't you have?

Dan Sugarman (02:01:50):

That's exactly what I thought. And worst case, dude, and it's sort of fucked for me to even say this, man, but I grew up with the ghost inside guys. I played tons of local shows with them leaving as Blood runs black and then them going through what they went through. I was like, holy fuck dude, I'm never getting a bus a van again. I just dodged every fucking bullet. And then I have anxiety about being in buses. Dude,

Eyal Levi (02:02:18):

Except for your own.

Dan Sugarman (02:02:19):

Yeah. I do not appreciate the black box of doom that you just trust, hope your bus driver knows what he's doing.

Eyal Levi (02:02:28):

That's one of the reasons I wanted to stop actually.

Dan Sugarman (02:02:31):

It's gnarly. It eats away at you when you try to sleep, right?

Eyal Levi (02:02:34):

Yeah. The older you get while you're doing it, the more dangerous you realize it is. And you just have to be cool with it. It is what it is.

Dan Sugarman (02:02:44):

That shit all leads to that cognitive dissonance shit that I was mentioning about before, which to me erodes the trust in myself. I know I shouldn't do it. I know it's not safe, but fuck it, I'll smoke enough to not care. Let's go. It's a little bit crazy. And I know that's the case, and I feel like that's what I was saying before, the people who get this far got the same kind of crazy, and it's not mental hospital kind. It's like, go get 'em crazy. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

Eyal Levi (02:03:12):

No, but it does take a unique set of circumstance combined with a unique chemistry, I think.

Dan Sugarman (02:03:20):

Sure. And on the chemistry thing, dude, the only reason why I feel like I had a flip switched is because of what Wim h can do as far as brain chemistry goes. I heard you talking about some of those specific things, right?

Eyal Levi (02:03:36):

Yeah, definitely.

Dan Sugarman (02:03:37):

To me, that's what occurred. I don't think I had God visit me or some shit. I think I literally just balanced the chemicals in my brain.

Eyal Levi (02:03:45):

You visited yourself. I

Dan Sugarman (02:03:46):

Visited my fucking self, dude, that's all it was. I went inside instead of outside, and instead of trying to hide for myself, I went in and I think that's the only reason I made those switches. And it's like would not be here without music, would not be here without Wim Hof. This is going to sound lame, would not be here had I not stumbled on you on metal injection or metal sucks, dude. It is all the same shit. The small stumblings on things lead to so much. You never know what it's really going to do, the seeds that are planted. Right? Thank you for that, by the way. I mean it, man.

Eyal Levi (02:04:21):

Whatever the hell I did. You're welcome. I was going to say that flipping the switch is a very, very real thing. I've done that too. And it's, man, I don't know how to say it other than I know people get pissed when I say anyone can do it, so maybe not anyone can do it, but it really is as simple as doing it. And it's so weird that it can take so much time before you flip the switch. But once you've actually done it and you realize that all it comes down to is I'm approaching things differently and I'm taking different actions, it really is that simple. Made me wonder why I didn't do it earlier, or what the hell was wrong with me. Maybe you just have to get to that point.

Dan Sugarman (02:05:07):

Relationships with yourself are so fucking weird, dude. It's, it's ongoing and always changing, and it is so easy to just judge something that you did or didn't do. I stumbled on this book a long time ago called The Slight Edge. Have you ever heard of it before? Nope. Really, really interesting concept that's so fucking simple that you don't even need to read the book. It's basically the idea that one good decision leads to another good decision, which leads to another good decision, and it creates an upward slope towards what you maybe want as where a bad decision leads to more bad decisions, et cetera. So it's like the idea of just whenever a decision or an opportunity comes your way, I literally just say slight edge in my mind and it forces me to do kind of the one that I'm afraid of, kind of just embrace the one that I know is the more challenging one.

(02:05:58):

It's also one of those perspective shifts that's really helped me. I'm a big proponent of self-development because I've always had internal issues with myself and not ever felt like I could go to anyone for that shit. I've done therapy my whole fucking life, dude, and I have therapists who quit afterwards because I tear 'em apart so hard. It's a problem that I have, and I do what I can for myself to get over it. And I think there's something really, really powerful in taking control of that shit yourself, but also more powerful in giving it up and asking for help. There's nothing wrong with that.

Eyal Levi (02:06:32):

Well, I mean, asking for help, there's nothing wrong with it. And sometimes you do need help, but all it is is help. You're going to be the one that makes the difference in the end. I mean, that's why it's called help.

Dan Sugarman (02:06:45):

Exactly. It's a two person job, right?

Eyal Levi (02:06:48):

Yeah. I think that a lot of people who don't flip the switch don't take responsibility. I mean, look, I am not talking about people who I guess have mental health issues that are so far beyond being able to take control of themselves. Obviously that exists, and I'm not talking about that. But outside of that, at the end of the day, it is on you. I mean, you should get help if you need help, but don't forget that it's on you at the end of the day. The end, basically.

Dan Sugarman (02:07:19):

Yeah, it truly is, dude. And I also think, I don't want to go the whole aa route, but there's something about hitting your rock bottom that allows you to just get in the fucking driver's seat.

Eyal Levi (02:07:32):

It just gives you a perspective, nothing else to lose.

Dan Sugarman (02:07:35):

Yeah, and I really think that's what it is, and it's hearing that might make someone be like, oh, I should just get really shitfaced the same way that someone, the same way someone hearing the best music comes from pain. It's like, dude, fuck off. Fuck off with that. All of those notions I think are really, really challenging for the normal person who's just talented. They don't need to be a pained artist. You know what I mean? But yeah, man, I can remember myself being in a situation. I was, was it 10th grade going into 11th grade? This was right before I went on independent study. Dude, I weighed 365 pounds. I was obese. I was actually obese, and I was going to laparoscopic surgeons to figure out what was going on. I was like, they wanted to do, I had a hiatal hernia, so I had insane acid reflux problems. And they were going to, let's take your intestines and time up around the top of your stomach so that you have a hiatal sphincter so that food doesn't come up again. And I'm like, dude, I'm 17. You do this shit for 50-year-old alcoholics

Eyal Levi (02:08:37):

Or just stop eating like shit.

Dan Sugarman (02:08:39):

That's what I'm saying. I, this is my prognosis. This is what I have to do unless I take something into my own hands. So I did, and I finally took my uncle's advice and tried, which is my Uncle Stew doesn't really fucking matter, but he was in X-Files and Friday the 13th, and Christine and a bunch of really big horror movies. He also is the best jazz pianist I've ever learned or heard. Do you know Lenny Triano by any chance? No. He's like a 1960s, seventies.

Eyal Levi (02:09:11):

And you've suggested a lot of things that I haven't heard of, which is kind of different.

Dan Sugarman (02:09:18):

Sweet. Lenny Triano is one of the inventors of minor seconds as harmony and jazz piano, like the Felonious Monk kind of almost just sloppy chords and shit,

(02:09:31):

But it's on purpose. Lenny Triano was also blind and a musical savant and started teaching my uncle when he was 13. So my uncle is fucking unreal, but he himself was a really sickly kid. Now he's dying from multiple sclerosis. It's really fucking sad. But he was always sick as a kid. And when he was 18 or something like that, stumbled on this Chinese guy in Brooklyn. And this guy just moved from America to America from China, and he teaches the shit called Sh, which is this very ancient internal martial art that's really undiscussed. I'm sure you've heard of Tai Chi and shit like that.

Eyal Levi (02:10:11):

Yes.

Dan Sugarman (02:10:12):

Tai Chi is one of the three internal martial arts of China. Then, which is the level up from that. Tai chi is for civilians, Bawa was for foot soldiers, and then Shing was reserved for generals only. It's like a very fucking gnarly thing. Nutty lineage story. Basically Sifu Ken Gong, my teacher's teacher living in pro-communist China, a general is in hiding in his backyard. And Kenny starts bringing him rice for dinner because there's just a guy living in his backyard and doesn't know what the fuck. And as a thank you, this general starts teaching a 13-year-old, which is unheard of. So by the time that Sifu was 19 or 18, he was a master starts effectively. Dude, this is one of those hilarious lineage stories that you feel like you hear on any movie, right?

Eyal Levi (02:11:00):

Well, where do you think the people who write movies get those stories from?

Dan Sugarman (02:11:04):

Yeah, it's fucking real. This story goes, and this is from my uncle who I trust with my life story goes that is traveling around China to acquire more knowledge. And he's paying all these masters who end up returning his money and paying to learn from him as like a kid. Whatever the fuck my uncle learned from this guy. This is the type of shit. And I know, again, everything I talk about is, so this is the type of shit my uncle saw. Sifu start fire with his hands. It's like that level of ship. My uncle is now dying of multiple sclerosis, but he's had it for 20 years. When he was first diagnosed with it, they found seven lesions on his brain and he went into a Shay meditation for a couple days and healed himself, which is medically unheard of. All the lesions healed themselves.

(02:11:47):

So there's a certain level of what the fuck supernatural shit in this. That really intrigued me as a kid. And I always watched it from afar and was like, nah, shit's crazy. And I'm sitting there 365 fucking pounds feeling like I'm giving up. Every time I try to go on a run, I can't because my knees are fucking killing me. Every time I try to diet, I can't because my eating habits control me. My uncle convinces me to do shing y, and in within four months I was down to 1 65. What did you do? Nothing physical. You would think if you asked how much did you sweat, how much calories did you burn, how much this and that? Not a lot, dude. It was an energetic thing, and so fucking nuts to me about it.

Eyal Levi (02:12:32):

I doubt you generated enough energy to offset pizza. You had to do something.

Dan Sugarman (02:12:38):

Dude, this is what I wasn't doing hours a day. I wasn't going on runs. I wasn't exercising all the time. I was doing shing y. And I was like, but you did change your eating

Eyal Levi (02:12:49):

Habits, right?

Dan Sugarman (02:12:50):

At this point? No. At this point, I was eating shittier than ever I was eating. My uncle had proven that he could eat whatever the fuck he wants, and he's fine, which is insane. But the dude is like a trash can. And for him, it's an energetic thing. And I know that's insane and foofy, but dude, I didn't do enough physically to deserve what happened, but it happened. And at a rate that is not real. You know what I mean?

Eyal Levi (02:13:18):

Were you taking meth too?

Dan Sugarman (02:13:19):

No. No, but I was smoking ounces of weed a day.

Eyal Levi (02:13:24):

I thought you were about to say, but No, but I was smoking lots of crack.

Dan Sugarman (02:13:27):

No, no. I kicked that when I was 12. It was tough for me.

Eyal Levi (02:13:31):

Okay, good, good. I know. It's a tough one.

Dan Sugarman (02:13:34):

It's tough, dude. Dude, I know how fucking insane this shit sounds.

Eyal Levi (02:13:40):

So you lost 200 pounds in four months.

Dan Sugarman (02:13:43):

I lost 1 90, 180 some crazy fucking number, dude,

Eyal Levi (02:13:49):

It's kind of insane.

Dan Sugarman (02:13:50):

I could show you photos of me. It's nuts.

Eyal Levi (02:13:53):

I want to see those photos.

Dan Sugarman (02:13:55):

Yeah, dude, it's sad. And I look at myself from those photos and I was really, I got down to a very, right now I'm one 90 and I was 1 65. This was kind of around when I joined as Bud runs black. So you could see how, I don't want to use the word frail, but that's not what I looked like before. You know what I mean? I've definitely settled into whatever tall my body. How are you? Six, one.

Eyal Levi (02:14:18):

Okay.

Dan Sugarman (02:14:19):

Six, 6.5, whatever the fuck.

Eyal Levi (02:14:21):

1 65, 6, 1 is pretty small.

Dan Sugarman (02:14:25):

Yeah, dude, I went from a 46 pants, 44 to a 30, 32. It was crazy. It was fucking crazy. But my point with this discussion is not to talk about weight loss. I give shit about that. It's the idea of being in a situation where you feel like you can't do something and then being willing to take the risk. That's really why I'm bringing this up. I was like, for years, watching my uncle tell me these stories and being like, nah, it's fucking crazy. I'm good, dude. I'm just going to munch on this za over here, make it three pizzas, whatever. So it was a willingness to just open my eyes and take the risk because what the fuck is the worst that could happen? Same thing with joining the band. Worst that could happen is I feel the way I felt before. I know what that's like.

Eyal Levi (02:15:13):

Probably not going to be worse than that.

Dan Sugarman (02:15:15):

It all comes down to those things. And then beyond that, also, having been in a situation where I felt helpless and I was just going to be an obese dude, my whole life didn't have to be that way. And I think that's not everyone's story. A lot of people that's just their body type or it just doesn't work for them. But I don't know.

Eyal Levi (02:15:34):

No, it's not. I don't buy that shit for a second, which shit that is just your body type.

Dan Sugarman (02:15:40):

Yeah. Yeah. I absolutely agree with that man. And that's where it comes down to your

Eyal Levi (02:15:44):

Body type plus pizza.

Dan Sugarman (02:15:47):

And even beyond that, it's your mental type, fucking your body.

Eyal Levi (02:15:50):

Yep. I think that's probably the strongest factor.

Dan Sugarman (02:15:54):

Yeah. Blaming your body is because your brain's too fucking stupid to recognize that it can't point fingers at itself.

Eyal Levi (02:16:01):

Yeah, I mean, look, there's probably a tiny, tiny percentage of people who have an actual physical problem. And again, not talking about them, but

Dan Sugarman (02:16:12):

From

Eyal Levi (02:16:13):

Personal experience here, I know that this is a mental thing more than anything, which most of life is at the end of the day. I actually take that thought too. Nothing that's going to happen can possibly be worse than what I already went through, so fuck it. I've thought that quite a few times.

Dan Sugarman (02:16:31):

I think that's a big part of it.

Eyal Levi (02:16:32):

Yeah, it's kind of a dark way to look at things, but at the same time, it is what I tell myself about a lot of things that I do. It helps. It is accurate.

Dan Sugarman (02:16:43):

The overly positive version of that would be like, this will pass kind of shit. But my version that I prefer is what you're saying. I've dealt with this before. Fuck it. You know what I

Eyal Levi (02:16:56):

Mean? Yeah. What's going to be worse than what I already went through? For real? How can this possibly hurt me worse?

Dan Sugarman (02:17:03):

Because when I approach it like that, the whole notion of this will pass. I'm going to be dealing with it. Alright, well fucking win. I'm ready for it. But if I'm just there to do it, it doesn't bother me.

Eyal Levi (02:17:14):

So when some have been working really, really hard, exercising a lot to the point where it is torture, I've seen that. I would consider it self-imposed torture, but it's just one of many things that I tell myself is not as bad as other things I've experienced and just do it.

Dan Sugarman (02:17:36):

The pain of going up that hill one more time or those steps one more time, doesn't even fucking compare to the pain of getting out of the couch when you were too heavy.

Eyal Levi (02:17:45):

Yeah, it's uncomparable. And I also feel that way about taking risks with business stuff. For instance, how bad is it to actually fail at something? It's not so bad. I've experienced things way worse than having something fall apart or not work out. However, the torture, the self-imposed torture of not having gone through with things, that's way worse than something failing. So I tend to look at risks. What's the worst that could happen here? It doesn't work out.

Dan Sugarman (02:18:22):

Then I'm back where I was. Cool, let's try it again. And that's one of my favorite things too, is if you've ever succeeded in something, then you can replicate that again. Who the fuck cares if something that you've earned has taken away from you? What the fuck are you've earned that make it again, not that hard? And then there's also something of, and this is just a dumb business quote, but just failing your way to success is something that I really, really live by. Every time that I fucked up enough to where it was embarrassing, that's where I've learned the biggest lessons and then I move forward a better person.

Eyal Levi (02:18:54):

Well, yeah, it means that you've risked a lot and went a lot further. So there's a much bigger lesson to be learned there, for sure.

Dan Sugarman (02:19:03):

Absolutely.

Eyal Levi (02:19:04):

Yeah. So real quick, this album going to be done. What are we doing? Nail the mix based on what I'm getting at.

Dan Sugarman (02:19:13):

Yeah. The only way that I could get kicked out of this band is if I invented a fucking release date.

Eyal Levi (02:19:19):

Let's not invent a release date.

Dan Sugarman (02:19:21):

And I'm probably the only one saying this anywhere, and this may get me in trouble, but we're balls deep. The songs are fucking incredible. As an outsider looking in, we're absolutely hitting on everything that you'd expect from my sine, but we're 1000% going beyond that on every level. The theatrics way, way above and beyond the storytellings, above and beyond. I think the songwriting is at least on par. If I was to say anything else, I'd be an egotistical maniac. It is been a fucking blast to do, man. And like I said, I'm putting on my scholastic cap constantly. Even if I'm sitting here frustrated dealing with anyone in the room, I'm still in the room going, I've never been in a band with musicians that give a fuck. So I'm here to just absorb and experiment and explore and experience.

Eyal Levi (02:20:11):

It's awesome to be in the room and whatever comes with it.

Dan Sugarman (02:20:14):

Yeah, dude, I just want to be in the fucking room. That's really what it is.

Eyal Levi (02:20:18):

That's kind of how I feel about a lot of this stuff that goes down with what I'm doing is it can get frustrating at times and people do piss me off, but at the end of the day, it's a cool thing to be doing. And those frustrations are part of the deal. You can't possibly be doing something high level without someone pissing you off or there being frustrations just comes with it.

Dan Sugarman (02:20:46):

And the cool thing that you're doing is you're creating the room. It's pretty fucking awesome.

Eyal Levi (02:20:52):

Yeah. It never works out when I'm at somebody else's room.

Dan Sugarman (02:20:56):

Right. Which is cool. Dude, if I'm completely honest, how many times have I said outsider looking in? You've absolutely created a room and a circle of people, and I'm stoked as shit that you've opened the door to me and let me in a little bit. It feels like a little bit of a league introduction to me.

Eyal Levi (02:21:13):

It's been a pleasure, dude. Yeah,

Dan Sugarman (02:21:15):

Man. I really look forward to hanging and talking more with you after this.

Eyal Levi (02:21:19):

Yeah, once

Dan Sugarman (02:21:21):

We can talk, actually,

Eyal Levi (02:21:23):

We can hang out once the world is no longer shut down. But either way, this is a good substitute.

Dan Sugarman (02:21:31):

Absolutely. This is social distancing at its fucking finest

Eyal Levi (02:21:34):

For sure.

Dan Sugarman (02:21:35):

As far as other shit, for me to just steal the platform and see an opportunity here to talk about myself, the shit that I can talk about is other stuff, if you'd like me to.

Eyal Levi (02:21:47):

Sure.

Dan Sugarman (02:21:48):

I mean, the stuff that I'm going to be focusing my time on right now, besides the fact that three days a week all day is ice nine day, like I mentioned before, I'm working on my lesson lounge, which is this badass online community that I will be, I already am delivering tons of free content to. They have access to me, all the other students, but I'm going to be hand delivering very, very detailed and personal lesson plans for people. Specifically, I'm going to be developing pods, so to speak, to be teaching different people who have gotten into, I guess different levels of playing. And my focus with that whole community is not to teach beginners, intermediate, or advanced. I'm not focusing on any of those. I'm focusing on the bridges between them. I'm focusing on how to get beginners to intermediate and intermediate to advanced because I feel like that's the shit that's not looked at.

(02:22:38):

That's the shit between the lines that no one's really focusing on. And that's my goal there is to really find a way to build that bridge for people that's unique and personalized to them. And it's been fucking phenomenal so far, and I'm having such a blast doing it. So me and my team are developing a lot of shit with that. Sadly, the pandemic just destroyed a whole summer of shooting full-blown courses, but sure did. Did you know the Life? And sadly, I need multi-camera people with movable shit, so I can't do it myself. I used to shoot three angle guitar lesson things. It sucks, dude. I'm so ready to have people helping me with that. So that's some shit that I'm focusing on, which is going very, very well. Tab books are all available through that. I actually just signed with Sheet Happens. So my newest album Inside Out Part One tab book is I think coming out September 1st.

(02:23:32):

That album just came out on May 15th. Nice. I'm currently currently writing Inside Out part two, and we didn't really get to talk too much about this, but really quick background on that. I wrote this record inside Out part one in the six months leading up to my mom passing away. Each of the songs was done in that month and it was all with different collaborators. And then we used the funds that I raised on Patreon to donate to different charities. And then the goal was to just immediately turn around and release that. But my mom passed away and I couldn't listen to that music for three years. So I've just been sitting on it for three years and I just finally released it, which was like, dude, I feel like the best I've ever felt having gotten that out of my fucking system, man. So I'm now sounds

Eyal Levi (02:24:13):

Cathartic.

Dan Sugarman (02:24:14):

Oh God, I feel like a different person. So that I'm moving on to part two. I might be relaunching that on Patreon. I'm not really sure yet. Other than that, dude, the things I mentioned before, I got a podcast as well, which is focused very, very similar topic, but I think a little bit different than this. I feel like what we do here is just super, super heavy background, deep diving, and it's so cool to be able to hear that shit. The stuff that I wouldn't even want to talk about people's history, dude, I feel like that's not even fair to enter your realm. So I want to talk about just how they did what they did, the ways that they got there, the mindset they had, kind of the stuff that we were talking about today. Honestly,

Eyal Levi (02:24:55):

I love that shit.

Dan Sugarman (02:24:56):

I might be wrong, but I feel like it's an undiscussed, underdeveloped area in music, the philosophy side of things.

Eyal Levi (02:25:05):

Definitely.

Dan Sugarman (02:25:06):

So that's my focus. And again, my whole game is like, what's the problem? How can I solve it if I was like, what's the problem with guitar lessons? And then I just hated it and I wasn't a teacher, but instead I'm like, alright, intermediate to advanced, beginner to intermediate. I'm trying to find holes and fill things that other people aren't doing so that I don't have to step into a saturated market because I'm not trying to compete like that. It's not worth anyone's time. So that's the game is I'm kind of wanting to circle back, dude, I'm trying to canvas strategy my shit. I want to develop situations to where people kind of want to gather around and be close to whatever the fuck fire I have so that they can stay warm. I want to kind of forge a path for others to kind of walk down, you know what I mean? As lame as that sounds, dude always coming back to me. But shit,

Eyal Levi (02:25:52):

I'm looking forward to seeing how shit develops, man.

Dan Sugarman (02:25:55):

Dude, honestly, I have no idea. Very, very big ideas. This is my problem as I tend to have these massive fucking ideas and then once that part of my brain opens up, I get 12 other business ideas that have nothing to do with that

Eyal Levi (02:26:08):

Pro tips. So then I'm just focus on one.

Dan Sugarman (02:26:11):

And that's definitely my challenge. That's me right now, dude. I'm fucking leather face piece of shit on stage with Ice nine. And then we are in the studio laughing and acting like idiots. No one will ever see, and then I am a business nerd.

Eyal Levi (02:26:25):

Sounds great.

Dan Sugarman (02:26:26):

Yeah, dude, it's a life for sure.

Eyal Levi (02:26:29):

Yeah, it sounds awesome.

Dan Sugarman (02:26:31):

I'm trying, dude, I'm just trying to ail my shit up.

Eyal Levi (02:26:34):

No, don't do that. There's probably less painful ways to go about things.

Dan Sugarman (02:26:39):

I mean, I didn't talk about everything, man. You don't know.

Eyal Levi (02:26:43):

True, true.

Dan Sugarman (02:26:44):

We'll get into it, I'm sure.

Eyal Levi (02:26:45):

Alright, man, it's been a pleasure.

Dan Sugarman (02:26:47):

Really appreciate you having me on here, dude, and giving me the space to be a fucking weirdo and talk about stuff I enjoy talking about. It's really fun, dude. Anytime.

Eyal Levi (02:26:58):

Okay, then another URM podcast episode in the bag. Please remember to share our episodes with your friends as well as post them to your Facebook, Instagram, or any social media you use. Please tag me at ai levy URM audio, and of course please tag my guests as well. Till next time, happy mixing. You've been listening to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast. To ask us questions, make suggestions and interact,

Dan Sugarman (02:27:25):

Visit

Eyal Levi (02:27:26):

URM Academy and press the podcast link today.