JOHNNY MINARDI: What labels look for, creating content with no shame, the key to longevity

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast, and now your host, Eyal Levi. Welcome to the URM Podcast. Thank you so much for being here. It's crazy to think that we're now on our fifth year, but it's true, and it's only because of you, the listeners. And if you'd like to see us stick around for another five years, there are a few simple things that you can do that would really, really help us out, and I would be endlessly appreciative. Number one, share our episodes with your friends. If you get something out of these episodes, I'm sure they will too. So please share us with your friends. Number two, post our episodes on your Facebook and Instagram and tag me and our guests too. My Instagram is at al Levi urm audio. And let me just let you know that we love seeing ourselves tagged in these posts.

(00:00:55):

Who knows, we might even respond. And number three, leave us reviews and five stars please anywhere you can. We especially love iTunes reviews. Once again, I want to thank you all for the years and years of loyalty. I just want you to know that we will never, ever charge you for this podcast, and I will always work as hard as possible to improve the episodes in every single way possible. All I ask in return is a share host and a tag. Now, let's get on with it. Hello everybody. Welcome to the URM Podcast. My guest today has been on a number of times. He's one of my favorite people that I have met through my music career. One of the good guys, always cool, always inspiring, and totally, totally gets it. And the amount of stuff that he just keeps on achieving, it just blows my mind. Anyways, I'll tell you a little bit about him. Johnny Minardi is the VP of a and R at Electra Music Group, which encompasses Fuel by Ramen, Electra Roadrunner, public Consumption, and DTA records. Johnny is also involved with Good Future Club Apparel, along with his wife and self-titled Management, which is a company centered around the business management of producers that such as Will Putney, Steve Evetts ly, and a whole bunch of others. This dude has it going on. Let's get started. So Johnny Minardi, welcome to the URM Podcast. Welcome back actually.

Speaker 2 (00:02:22):

Welcome back. Thank you. I think this is number three, isn't it?

Speaker 1 (00:02:25):

It's number three.

Speaker 2 (00:02:26):

There we go. I was going to say I was dreaming it, but here it is. Three.

Speaker 1 (00:02:29):

So you were saying that you've been super active during this time?

Speaker 2 (00:02:34):

Yeah, yeah, very much so. I think you and I both have connected over the travel and the amount of time we spend doing certain things like that. So to be forced into not traveling and for me not commuting up and down to LA from where I live has been extra time in my life every single day to be with family, to reset myself on a health kick, for working out, eating right, doing all the right things. So I hope people are finding that as well.

Speaker 1 (00:03:01):

So for people listening to this long into the future, it's June 20th, 2023 months or four months into the end of the world, basically,

Speaker 2 (00:03:13):

The world has stopped, but you can't stop doing most things you need to do except for the things they won't allow you to be around anyone else to do,

Speaker 1 (00:03:21):

And basically find new ways to do the things that you would've done around people.

Speaker 2 (00:03:26):

Yes, you still have to accomplish the same things, but with one hand tied behind your back for certain things,

Speaker 1 (00:03:33):

The travel thing. You're one of the people who travels as much as I do. So yeah, we have connected on that. Did you ever feel like it was too much? Did you ever get those feelings of like, I need to stop traveling this much? I know I did.

Speaker 2 (00:03:48):

Yes, absolutely. I mean, there's definitely, I guess certain timeframes that are a lot crazier than others. But when there was a time I was in New York, in Nashville, in Australia, back to LA, back to New York, all within I think 14 days, and I had to kind of accomplish two to, that's

Speaker 1 (00:04:08):

Insane.

Speaker 2 (00:04:09):

And it was a two to three day period in each maybe, and that's also just kind of a random glimpse of a two week period where I'm sure you've had similar around the world trips because when an opportunity comes up, sometimes you don't get the plan convenience and you just go, well, the thing I need to be at is in four days, so either I go or I don't.

Speaker 1 (00:04:30):

Yeah. Basically at the end of last year, there was this one stretch where we did nail the mix in LA with Jens Boren, and then immediately five days later did the summit and then immediately following the summit since you went, you know what a ridiculous thing that is. So immediately after that, four days later went to Denmark for three days, and then after those three days went to Putney's to film that shit for three weeks and then immediately to a

Speaker 2 (00:04:58):

Vacation. Right. Well, at least it ended in vacation for yourself. I loved hearing that. But yeah, I've watched you travel the globe, just whether it be through us talking or social media updates, and clearly you've mentioned a few things like URM and Putney that I was a part of helping understand and schedule. So it's funny because a lot of people wish for that, and I think you and I are spoiled in the sense of we get to do a lot of cool things. There's definitely moments when you're in the thick of it that it's hard to see just because of the exhaustion and because of my wife and young child. I know at home when I'm not home, it's harder. So it's like there's things to juggle, but also at the same time, it's like you basically work your entire life to get this busy to do the things you want to do, right? I mean everything just something you planned. And I know those were kind of almost like bucket listy items within your companies.

Speaker 1 (00:05:49):

Absolutely, and that's why I had a talk with Nick who went with me on every single one of them and was like, look, man, it's going to be a crazy two months and we have to do every single one of these. If these weren't all crazy important, then we'd schedule it out differently. But I guess to what you're saying about we get to do what we want to do, and everything in life has a price. I think, I forget who said it, but there's no free passes in life or nature. There's nothing that's good or enjoyable or whatever that doesn't have some sort of a price tag. I mean, if people choose to do drugs, they have a price tag of whatever side effects are, maybe even death. If people choose to get gluttonous, they could die young, get fat if you choose to travel all the time. While there's some really cool side to that, there's a price you got to pay. There's a price to everything,

Speaker 2 (00:06:47):

Of course, whether it be health relationships missing out on other things that you should be around for birthdays, anything. But like you said, when you work towards something and get the chance to do it, you got to figure it out a way. And obviously my family's a huge part of it, but they understand the goal of what we're doing

Speaker 1 (00:07:10):

That's important

Speaker 2 (00:07:11):

I'm doing, they're helping me do et cetera, however you want to phrase it. It's a very important thing to know and have the same vision in mind, even though we do separate things to know, okay, if I travel this much now, hopefully later in life, that affords us the other freedoms of time and travel together.

Speaker 1 (00:07:28):

Is this something where when you were younger and you looked towards your own future, having a job that took you around the globe doing cool shit, was that part of the goal for you?

Speaker 2 (00:07:39):

Honestly, the furthest thing from that growing up, I didn't travel much outside of a couple road trips with friends. And then when I started in a and r, I loved, I'd go to Seattle to see Gatsby's American Dream to sign in when I was 18 or certain things, and I started to be like, whoa, the world is way cooler when you get to go do things, especially with the goal in mind. I actually hated the idea of traveling for a while prior to that, and then after that, I didn't fly for seven years, so it was very hard to be an a r person. I just had crazy anxiety from an allergic reaction that I had, and I didn't fly forever. It was crazy. I always thought during that time period, my job as an a r person would be so fucking easy if I could just let myself fly.

(00:08:25):

If I could fly, I could literally grow so fast, help so many artists, help grow the labels so fast. So it's funny. Then years and years later, when I did start flying, I was like, this is what I thought it would be. Now I get to go do this crazy. I get to go to festivals. I've been watching VHS's of for 25 years in Europe. It's all of those things where it's like if you could get out of your own way, you will actually enjoy traveling and traveling with a company like Warner Music Group, electro music group, everything that I worked for. You get to travel a little bit nicer than I would've when I was 16, so I understood why I hated it, but I get taken care of now, so I get to actually see the world not be exhausted, get to sleep on flights and whatever. So I think I've found my path to where I'm very comfortable with traveling, and I actually do look forward to it at times. Again, I would love to spread it out conveniently, but it's just never the way it works from a conference to a festival to signing an artist across the world because you have to right then and there, otherwise you miss it.

Speaker 1 (00:09:24):

We don't live in a convenient world.

Speaker 2 (00:09:26):

No, not at all.

Speaker 1 (00:09:28):

Except if we're talking about grocery delivery, I'm curious about something. I used to be afraid of flying. Now I love aviation, but I used to be afraid of flying to the point where I skipped out on a lot of stuff when I was younger. It wasn't during my career, but it was stuff like when I was 16, my family went on a vacation to Galapagos and I didn't go

Speaker 2 (00:09:51):

Right, you just said no. Because of the flying part.

Speaker 1 (00:09:53):

Yeah, because of the flying part. And there were a bunch of things like that where I just didn't do them. Definitely regret it, and I got over the fear of flying. Now, I love it, but it's very interesting to me when there's a fear of doing something that's so strong that you'll let it hold you back and an allergic reaction, that's a serious thing. How did you get past it?

Speaker 2 (00:10:17):

It's funny because I had the allergic reaction from some oysters, something I've had many times, and this one just triggered whatever it was in my body, and then it freaked me out. So in my head I was like, well, if I travel and I'm in places I don't know and I'm not comfortable, or if I get an allergic reaction in the air, what happens to me? Right? Because when I got to the hospital during that, it was like

Speaker 1 (00:10:37):

Legit fear.

Speaker 2 (00:10:38):

They were like, your throat was closing. You're lucky you fucking came here. You know what I mean? So to me, I'm like, all right, on a five hour flight from LA to New York, a lot can happen. So in my head, I built it and built it. I had a lot of friends go through the same thing. A lot of them would pop a Xanax or whatever they could do just to get on the plane, first of all.

Speaker 1 (00:10:59):

Oh yes. I did that for a long time.

Speaker 2 (00:11:01):

Yeah, and it's funny. So like I said, six or seven years into the fear, like I said, I passed on every festival. My boss at the time was just like, dude, you got to get over this. At some point, your job is literally to be the face of signing artists and you can't just drive to LA every time from Chicago. At the time I lived in,

Speaker 1 (00:11:20):

Holy shit, you weren't even in la.

Speaker 2 (00:11:22):

No, I was in Chicago.

Speaker 1 (00:11:23):

So you would drive to la

Speaker 2 (00:11:25):

I've driven to LA two or three separate round trips, New York every six months for six years. Yeah, something like that.

Speaker 1 (00:11:32):

Man. I remember once when I was 17, I got into this program, this five week Berkeley program. It wasn't like the actual college. It was while I was still in high school. And so it was badass, but I didn't want to fly to Boston, so I took a goddamn train.

Speaker 2 (00:11:48):

Oh, I've looked in the trains, man,

Speaker 1 (00:11:50):

18 hours from Atlanta to Boston, 18 hours.

Speaker 2 (00:11:54):

So crazy.

Speaker 1 (00:11:55):

That's a one hour and a half flight, 18 hours.

Speaker 2 (00:11:58):

I looked in the Chicago to LA train, which was 44 hours, Jesus Christ. And I contemplated it when driving, there's like 30 so and flying, there's three and a half. So it was a comfortable fear, you know what I mean? It was crazy. And then some friends of mine, it was a bachelor party. And it's funny, my friends had tried to get me to go on trips with them so many times, and one of them was like, look, we're having a bachelor party in Florida in four months.

Speaker 1 (00:12:23):

You can start walking now

Speaker 2 (00:12:25):

That, or let's book you the ticket with us. You could cancel at any time. No big deal. Just put 200 bucks up with us. We'll see what happens. As we get closer, we'll work on it. And it was like seven or eight of us flying, including my brother and who was a huge help in me getting out of my fear of everything. And basically the day came and I was fucking freaking out, and they were like, look, how many times have we all flown in a time? You haven't flown, right? Nothing's ever happened. If we go down or whatever your fucking fear is, we're all going down. You know what I mean? And for some reason there was some sort of comradery in this. Yeah, I know I'm going to call me when you land, you're going to have four great days, and I'm going to be sitting at home being like, you idiot. The plane would've done the same exact thing whether you were on it or not, right? So in my head, I just did it.

Speaker 1 (00:13:13):

Did you also have a plane crash? Fear?

Speaker 2 (00:13:15):

I don't know. It was a mixture of all of it. I think once it was one thing, it built into another and then another, and then just like you're not getting on a plane, so whatever you got to tell yourself to stay off, do that.

(00:13:25):

So I just kind of made irrational memories that don't actually exist, I guess. Yeah, I popped a bunch of Xanax and landed on, when I was on the plane, I'd flown 30, 40, 50 times prior to that, years and years prior. So once I got up and we're halfway there, I'm like, this is so easy. You're such a bitch. You could walk to the bathroom right now, grab a drink. It's just normal. It just took me, the longer I waited, the bigger the fear was. So even friends that had gotten over it were like once you fly a lot, because you will let yourself sink back in once you stop, which it just was one of those things where now I fly with nothing. You know what I mean? But it just took me a long fucking time to be able to be okay with it.

Speaker 1 (00:14:09):

And did the fear of having a reaction just go away? Did you do anything to

Speaker 2 (00:14:15):

Yes and no. For the first three, four years of flying, again, I brought only my own food. I wouldn't touch or eat anything that I knew could set me off in any negative way. I have an EpiPen, I have Benadryl, I have a fucking

Speaker 1 (00:14:29):

So you're stocked?

Speaker 2 (00:14:30):

Yeah, I got a medicine cabinet in my bag. You know what I mean? So it's like for most occasions I could probably get myself safely to the ground, go, Hey, we got to go down. I got to pop. You know what I mean? Or at least in my head, that's how it works. But yeah, no, it's gone away to the knock on wood where I'll eat meals on flights now. I'll always ask a couple extra questions, which oddly enough they never fucking have the answers to. It's just crazy. The allergies, dude, even when I can get a random bump up to business class, they have no fucking clue about nut allergies, seafood allergies, nothing.

Speaker 1 (00:15:02):

Of course not.

Speaker 2 (00:15:03):

It's crazy. I'm like, it's not on the menu, but this looks like that. And they're like, I don't know. I'll ask. I'm like, who are you asking?

Speaker 1 (00:15:09):

There's no one there to ask.

Speaker 2 (00:15:10):

There's no one ask. It's wild.

Speaker 1 (00:15:13):

Can you pre-order?

Speaker 2 (00:15:15):

Yes, you could. And I always do when I have enough time, usually it's like 72 hours out or whatever. So it's like I always pre-order and I always very big and bold list my three, four major allergies. I don't really, honestly, even in business or something, I'll eat the fucking roll with butter and that's my jam. And if I'm going overseas, I'll bring bagels, celery, fruits, vegetables. I'll just bring my own shit in my backpack.

Speaker 1 (00:15:42):

That actually is something I'm going to be doing from now on when I travel is bringing a lot of my own food.

Speaker 2 (00:15:50):

Honestly, the first time I ever really took it seriously was obviously flying from LA to Australia where it's 21 hours or something. I don't even remember what it was. It was so fucking obnoxious. And

Speaker 1 (00:16:00):

They let you bring the food in?

Speaker 2 (00:16:02):

Oh yeah. And I brought a huge bag of baby carrots, a huge bag of other little fruits and everything already chopped up ready, and every two hours while I was awake, I was just like, it would just energize me. It would refresh me and make me feel, not like when you're on a plane too long, you're kind of just like anything. I didn't feel like that the whole flight, which is shocking.

Speaker 1 (00:16:24):

I think that one of the reasons that travel is so unhealthy for people is not the travel.

Speaker 2 (00:16:30):

I agree.

Speaker 1 (00:16:30):

Well, okay, so of course if you're fucking with your circadian rhythms, that's not great. But I think that it's not that alone. It's a combination of things. And I think primarily it's the food.

Speaker 2 (00:16:44):

It's the food dude, because convenience and it's all trash. So it's like, what is it? I think there's a really famous Anthony Bourdain quote that's like, I will never eat food on an airplane even if I'm in first class on the nicest airline. It's not meant for what your excitement and your health and your momentum and life. Dude,

Speaker 1 (00:17:03):

It's so funny with business class, international, those seats are expensive. God, and they dress it up. You're at a Michelin place when it's like cheesecake factory level food.

Speaker 2 (00:17:15):

No, not even. Not even

Speaker 1 (00:17:17):

At best. At best business class food is frozen off a truck.

Speaker 2 (00:17:22):

Totally.

Speaker 1 (00:17:23):

And I'm not complaining, but I'm just saying it's not what it's made out to be.

Speaker 2 (00:17:29):

Not at all. And I feel so sluggish after. And if I land in the uk, first off, you're fucking, your timeframes are all over the place, so you never know what meal you're on anyway, but it's just like you ate the crappiest food on the plane

Speaker 1 (00:17:43):

And loaded with sodium,

Speaker 2 (00:17:45):

Loaded with it, so you feel sluggish, you feel like a lump. You're, the only thing I've ever loved food wise is the fucking chocolate chip cookies on American Airlines. I'll take one every time they walk past. Other than that, I don't even get food when I sit down anymore. Get the fuck out of here.

Speaker 1 (00:18:02):

I've only been on American twice, so I didn't even know they do that, but

Speaker 2 (00:18:06):

That's awesome.

Speaker 1 (00:18:06):

My plan for when COVID is over, and obviously travel resumes is exactly that. Bring vegetables, bring fruits, probably lots of potatoes.

Speaker 2 (00:18:16):

Great idea.

Speaker 1 (00:18:17):

Stuff that isn't going to go bad, that will prevent me from eating room service or Uber Eats or any shit like that.

Speaker 2 (00:18:25):

Great idea. I mean, I bring straight up containers, a lot of Tupperware of grapefruits and whatever. Anything that'll get you through with energy. That's all I, it's so funny that we're talking about this. We're fucking 80 years old, but I feel like

Speaker 1 (00:18:42):

You want to feel like you're 80. You could feel like you're 80 right now if you travel the way that I used to.

Speaker 2 (00:18:49):

Totally. And that's what I'm saying. The day I stopped getting to the airport 30 minutes early so I can eat before my flight versus eat wherever. If I'm in New York, I grab food, sit down, and then go to the airport. That right there changes everything. It changed my entire attitude and outlook and

Speaker 1 (00:19:10):

Wait, what do you mean?

Speaker 2 (00:19:11):

I'm saying if I'm leaving the office in New York and I have to catch a 6:00 PM flight, I leave the office instead of at two 30. I leave at one 30 and go sit in New York City, eat an actual meal,

Speaker 1 (00:19:22):

Like a good meal,

Speaker 2 (00:19:23):

Then go to the airport. Once you get into that airport, nothing has ever made me feel great. No food,

Speaker 1 (00:19:29):

Dude. There is basically the only option are sometimes peanuts, but again,

Speaker 2 (00:19:34):

Can't do it.

Speaker 1 (00:19:35):

That's loaded with sodium. Yeah, you can't do that. And also I'm like all about low sodium now, so I can't do that either. There are no

Speaker 2 (00:19:43):

Options. It's like fruit cups for me at best, or a banana or something. That's my game when I get to the airport now.

Speaker 1 (00:19:49):

So basically what it requires is a lot of pre-planning.

Speaker 2 (00:19:54):

Yeah. You just got to think about it

Speaker 1 (00:19:55):

Kind of like anything else, I guess.

Speaker 2 (00:19:57):

Of course. And it sounds like you and I are on the same page of we never thought about it, and I would always just be like, man, I hate traveling for this and this reason. I was like, well, just don't do that. It's like this age old shit. My dad used to make me do, dad, it hurts when I do this. He's like, don't fucking do that. And you're like, oh, true. It's like,

Speaker 1 (00:20:14):

Are you familiar with Jocko?

Speaker 2 (00:20:16):

I don't think I am. No.

Speaker 1 (00:20:17):

He's a podcaster author. It's like an ex Navy Seal who his podcast is part war stories, but then part the most motivational shit ever. And he is got a book called Discipline equals Freedom, which is really, really cool. And it just reminds me, there's this one section, it's not written a normal book. It's very simple, but obvious shit. Just don't do that. There's a section on going to sleep, and it's like basically, I'm paraphrasing, but it's better to read than watch something before you go to bed. But if you happen to read things that get you excited, just don't read those things.

Speaker 2 (00:20:57):

It sounds so easy.

Speaker 1 (00:20:58):

Yeah, just don't, don't do it.

Speaker 2 (00:21:00):

So funny.

Speaker 1 (00:21:01):

Read things that bore you,

Speaker 2 (00:21:03):

Right, Mitch? I do actually. I usually get through four or five pages of a boring book and by then I'm like, just put it down. You're fucking exhausted at this point.

Speaker 1 (00:21:10):

So I've had insomnia problems since I was a little kid and I beat it during COVID.

Speaker 2 (00:21:16):

That's amazing.

Speaker 1 (00:21:17):

Dude. COVID has been total reset. Yeah. The way I beat it is by reading intellectually heavy stuff that requires math processing and tables and stuff like that.

Speaker 2 (00:21:31):

Yeah, I'm in the midst of this Good to great, which I think you and I have talked about where it literally breaks down old ass companies in the early 19 hundreds.

Speaker 1 (00:21:40):

Yep, there you go.

Speaker 2 (00:21:41):

And I'm just five pages in. I'm like, I'm not even understanding this right now. That's how tired you are. Get to bed right now. It's awesome.

Speaker 1 (00:21:47):

That's perfect.

Speaker 2 (00:21:48):

Then I go back and start the next morning with that page and I'm like, reread that because you faded fast.

Speaker 1 (00:21:53):

So speaking of this COVID time, I've seen basically two reactions from everybody. And this is across the board. Either the world is ending and fuck it. I'm just going to let it all hang out and let myself go and just be scared, which people deal with things the way they deal with things. But I've seen that reaction where people just give into their bad habits and just let it go. And then I've seen this other group of people who have been like, obviously there's a lot of stuff that sucks about this, but those things are out of my control. The stuff that I can control, I'm going to take advantage of that. And they've been seeing it as a total chance to reset and take care of a bunch of things that I guess they just never did before.

Speaker 2 (00:22:54):

You almost were afforded this wild amount of free time in a sense that you can choose your own path of fade into the laziness or Yeah, completely restructure it where, like I said, I think prior to starting this, I definitely have friends that are like, I have nothing to do but work out. It's been the only time I've ever been able to focus on it where it's

Speaker 1 (00:23:15):

Great.

Speaker 2 (00:23:15):

That's the section I've fallen into too.

Speaker 1 (00:23:18):

Same

Speaker 2 (00:23:18):

Two weeks into this, my wife and I looked at each other, we're like, let's get a treadmill. We've always wanted one. What Better fucking time to get one. Just do it. So we did it and lived on it, and I was telling you, it just broke three days ago. So now it's like we realized how addicted to it we were the next morning when it wasn't working, and you're like, I don't know what to do with my day. It felt strange. So I think you could do either, but I think the motivation, if you can find it, man, it's got to be a great time. A lot of friends have started the things that were on their lists for the last five years, whether it be podcasting, writing, YouTube series, review this, review that, whatever it is, man, it's like right now is the time to try a thousand different things and just go all in on shit. No one's leaving their house for the most part that I know of.

Speaker 1 (00:24:05):

Yeah, I've been talking about doing a second podcast for a year and a half now. Got it launched during this time. Same with the exercise thing. I ended up buying an elliptical. I bought a bike, bought a full range of dumbbells, bought a sauna.

Speaker 2 (00:24:23):

Geez, that's amazing.

Speaker 1 (00:24:25):

And have been just putting in no joke like three or four hours a day.

Speaker 2 (00:24:32):

So sick.

Speaker 1 (00:24:33):

I mean, I keep busting myself up, which means that's why I have multiple things. Fuck my leg up and then have to do other stuff for a while.

Speaker 2 (00:24:43):

Right, right. Switch off.

Speaker 1 (00:24:45):

But that's the price I'm paying for. Oh, I lived the last few years.

Speaker 2 (00:24:49):

Right.

Speaker 1 (00:24:49):

But it's awesome. It's awesome because I couldn't have done it before

Speaker 2 (00:24:55):

Of course.

Speaker 1 (00:24:55):

And now I know that going back into real life, maybe when the world opens back up, I'm not going to be able to do four hours a day of working out, but I will have done that for who knows, eight months, maybe a

Speaker 3 (00:25:10):

Year.

Speaker 1 (00:25:11):

I'll know how to work it into my life in a way that works.

Speaker 2 (00:25:17):

And you'll know when you only have two hours versus four, what the important parts are to do today versus tomorrow and so on. Exactly. And all you're doing is getting your base to the point where the problem I had at the beginning of this was I was working out a ton with this treadmill, and I was working out and working out, working out, and I'm like, I'm not going down, but I'm not going up. So I'm like, this is my base. And then my wife and I actually did a five day juice cleanse, which I know you're a big intermediate fasting proponent. So we did that.

Speaker 1 (00:25:48):

I've done juicing before too.

Speaker 2 (00:25:50):

So we basically, it's the first time we ever tried it. So we did five days and I lost 12, 12 and a half pounds or something. And it was like, well, now you're going to work out the same you did prior to it, but your base is this now. You know what I mean? And that's what I think is going on right now is you're able to take those things and reset and reset and reset and find what's comfortable. Now I have more energy all day and I can run around with my kid. I can do all this other stuff because I lost a little bit of that weigh me down portion of my energy or physical weight too. Literally weighing me down,

Speaker 1 (00:26:25):

Man, walking through life just a little lighter makes it so much easier.

Speaker 2 (00:26:30):

Totally.

Speaker 1 (00:26:31):

Holy shit. So speaking of habits and stuff, what have you noticed among the people that you're responsible for career-wise, like musicians? Have you noticed that a lot of them are being positive and proactive, or is it kind of split?

Speaker 2 (00:26:50):

Mostly proactive because honestly, a lot of their lives didn't change since they're in the studio every day. You know what I mean? So as long as their calendar remained thick, I don't think much has changed. Obviously, some bands, a few of the dudes I work with, their calendars actually have some pretty gaping holes through the summer because bands whom we're supposed to drive from Kentucky to LA are just like, ah, we're not doing it right now. You know what I mean? Well, let's do it in the fall. Let's do it first thing next year. So that part's been tricky. I mean, mixing has gone up a ton, obviously, because now bands are

Speaker 1 (00:27:23):

Okay, so you're talking about your management clients,

Speaker 2 (00:27:26):

Producers? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that side of it hasn't changed much just because obviously, like we were saying, they're usually kind of solo dolo anyway, and on the artist side, on the bands and the writers and all that stuff, it's been two different paths. Yeah, there's definitely been depression. My tour got canceled, my records pushed back. I'm having writers blocked because I can't get out and get inspired. You can't get what certain people usually write with on the other side of the country or globe. But then there's some that have taken the pandemic by storm and used the time to write more songs than they ever would've if they were on tour or any of that. So I think it's a definitely divide, maybe down the middle because certain artists are just stuck and it's harder for them that way. And some of the bands I work with, I mean namely All Time Low, they live in four different spots, Maryland, Nashville, LA, and Hawaii.

(00:28:21):

So those four band members can't get together for anything, so they're stuck. So it's like there's definitely across the board, very, very different situations and sets of obstacles. But mindset, I will say, I'm proud of the teams I work with because they're all very much like it's an even playing field. There's no poor me. This is every band in your position, every person in the world, everything. And a lot of people have it a lot harder than those bands that have had a pretty plush, cushy thing for a while. So now it's just time to get creative.

Speaker 1 (00:28:56):

Can we talk a little bit about the all time low scenario you just brought up, because correct me if I'm wrong, but they released an album two Weeks into the Pandemic.

Speaker 2 (00:29:07):

They certainly did. So we were working on a record all of last year, maybe even a little bit prior to that. And for people who don't know the short history, it's like they've had 12, 13, 14 years of pretty great success in the lane of the pop punk pop rock genre, warp tour world.

Speaker 1 (00:29:24):

Oh yeah, they're winning in that world

Speaker 2 (00:29:26):

Totally. A couple gold records, maybe even a platinum record. So they've had definite success. So the last record they made was definitely more of a little bit of a left turn in sound for fan bases for their fan base. And then this record, they really found their stride of being under the same roof just like it was 15 years ago in their basement, et cetera, actually putting this really interesting spin on it. And they were really inspired and energetic. It was fun to be around, and I've known 'em this entire career, and I never saw them as focused and excited as they were. Recorded a great record, put out 15 songs, which is a really long record for the genre. And we basically had this incredible rollout plan, huge tours planned all year, and obviously shows started getting, they did a bunch of underplay shows with all of their 3, 4, 5 biggest cities, but in 150 cap bars and tiny places, which that was the kickoff to the cycle. And then two weeks later, the pandemic really, really shut everything down where that was like, everything's canceled, work is closed, everything's closed, but grocery stores, and we're looking at the calendar going, your fucking record comes out in two weeks and it's coming. We can't stop it now. There's product in Target, there's product everywhere. If you don't put it out, you start to get fined. So you have to move through it. So we're like, well, shit, we're going, so let's go and here we go. Then

Speaker 1 (00:30:48):

Did you have to adjust the way you approached it and pivot somehow?

Speaker 2 (00:30:53):

Oh my God, everything. I mean, take the marketing plan and throw it out the window, because 90% of it was in person. It was doing radio visits, doing Good Morning America. They had set up for the first time in their career on release date, all of this other stuff, whatever was there, gone. So now it's like your record's coming, figure out a new plan. And it was like, holy shit. So everyone at the label, everyone on the management team, everyone in the band, we literally had these crazy Google docs of just six, seven pages of Idea, idea, idea. And those guys to their testament, they did everything they put, they were like, work us to the bone. We will wake up early, talk to fans in Japan. Let's do this. Let's do streams. Let's do acoustic this. Let's rent out a venue in Baltimore and do a live stream for all the contest winners. They did every single thing with a smile on their face, and that's tough.

Speaker 1 (00:31:45):

Every single thing on that Google Doc,

Speaker 2 (00:31:47):

They did everything that we put in front of them.

Speaker 1 (00:31:49):

I want to understand the scenario. Is this something where there was that collective all hands on deck kind of feeling like,

Speaker 2 (00:31:56):

Oh yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:31:57):

We all have to save this emergency mode?

Speaker 2 (00:32:01):

100%.

Speaker 1 (00:32:03):

That's very cool. I kind of love those moments because you get to see what everyone's made of,

Speaker 2 (00:32:09):

Right? You do, man. I mean, we had a 70, 80 person Zoom call with the entire company management and band members and everyone. I mean, I'm talking person who just got to the company three weeks ago from the parking lot, throwing in an idea and the band going, fuck it, throw it on the list. Let's do it. One of us will do it, divide and conquer where we can. And they restarted up their podcast they used to do 10 years ago, they've been doing Behind the Music on every single song on the record, bringing in the producer, bringing in the writer, bringing in the guest vocalists, whatever they've done, everything. They have covered the internet for the last four months. And again, checking in with them offline, it was very much like, guys, I just want to say I'm super proud of you. This could have been Absolutely. Throw your hands up and say, poor us, fuck up. This sucks. You guys have given yourselves momentum to get to touring next year. You know what I mean? All we're doing right now is making sure the record is top of mind and getting them out and to play these songs live at some point next year.

Speaker 1 (00:33:07):

That's what I keep telling people is what you do now is going to determine whether or not you hit the ground running when the world opens up basically.

Speaker 2 (00:33:17):

Totally. And the momentum you can hopefully harness and maintain right now versus stopping will really be that rocket out of the gate and you will feel, I mean, early 2021, anyone who follows the genre will definitely feel all time logo, holy shit. Because the fan, they're going deep. They're doing as much as they can with each fan that reaches out. They're more active on every social because they're at home. You know what I mean? They're showing more of what they're doing right now. It's been inspiring, and I use them as the example every time we're getting ready to set up a record. The other thing is at the label, we're not stopping. We have records coming out every month. We're just going, everyone's dealing with the same thing. We're not going to take the year off. So get it to where you can get it. Let's have a 12 month plan instead of a six month plan. Let's just make sure we keep momentum. And that doesn't mean spread it out. That means add more in.

Speaker 1 (00:34:12):

Yes. Are you noticing that lots of the artists are on board? Okay, cool.

Speaker 2 (00:34:19):

Absolutely. Oh my God, dude. All artists want to do is put out fucking more music. So this is a dream come true when we come around and we're like, alright, you have 12 songs for your record. Go write a couple more. Those will be B sides, those will be bonus tracks for whatever Japan releases, online releases later. Also, here's three, four songs. Go record acoustic versions of those. I'm going to take those three, four songs, go get remixes, go ask our friends to feature on it. I have nothing nowhere planned coming up that we're like having three, four things on each separate song, whether he'll play it on YouTube, then we'll get a acoustic, then we'll get a remix, then we'll get this. It's like all we want to do right now is be active. And it's not about watering it down. It's about being like, well, what else are you going to do? Right? You're not playing shows, so let's just keep giving different versions and let other people decide which ones they like and want to keep replaying. Or if they don't want any of 'em, then that's okay too.

Speaker 1 (00:35:11):

So on this topic, I think it's really, really interesting. I think it's really allowing artists to shine creatively in ways that they may not have even thought about before. They're adding skills and they're adding output, but they're just finding ways to channel what they do in a whole new way. And more than just writing songs in everything, the way they communicate with fans, the level of work they're willing to do for promotion, for instance. I just think it's almost like being reborn as an artist, kind of like the way that you would be when you're a teenager or something.

Speaker 2 (00:35:56):

Yeah, and like you said, the real ones shine through in a sense. Some of them have started up their Twitch channels or whatever, things that they would never do ever prior because they didn't have time or didn't speak the right language or whatever it is. And they've gone and learned and really not researched it for the fact of showing up and faking it, but being like, oh fuck, I like doing this. This is what I do this anyway. I just don't film myself playing a game and talk to fans at the same time. So we've gotten really good at coaching them through doing that kind of stuff.

Speaker 1 (00:36:26):

So could you give me just, I think it's interesting, some examples of some artists besides all Time Low that are doing super creative things to maximize their digital outreach.

Speaker 3 (00:36:39):

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:36:40):

I'm just curious, who and what are some of the coolest things that you've seen so far?

Speaker 2 (00:36:46):

So selfishly within the campus, so close to it, like I was using the Nothing Nowhere example where every two weeks he'll put up a one take version of a song that we've already released in a different style on his YouTube, and then he'll go on Twitch and he'll basically, I don't want to say DJ at night, but basically play Fortnite with all of the fans, but also be playing little snippets of stuff for getting really in depth there. And then he set up a live show in the forest in Vermont and just filmed it, produced it, edited it, mixed it made it sound dope. And that's up on there too. The guys in Fever have done a lot of stuff like that too. They've set up a lot of a warehouse show and built out this big stage and video wall and everything with a few friends help outside of the camps I work with, I mean, front Bottoms do a weekly show too, where it's a variety show and that's super fucking funny.

(00:37:37):

And then they play all anything from the catalog that people request with a live band right there too outside of it. I think a huge example I can give watching is Machine Gun Kelly, where I feel like he's gotten bigger since the Pandemic just because he's done everything, cover songs every three days, videos of this acoustic, this remixes of that. I don't know if there goes a three day window without me seeing that guy's name for some reason. And you're looking at every chart, anything, whether it be through Spotify, through the radio charts, through YouTube, through whatever on TikTok, you're seeing it. It is just like it's nonstop. And I'm like, this guy is bigger than he was six months ago, and he hasn't released anything except one new song. So think of how insane that is.

Speaker 1 (00:38:24):

Well, he's someone that's really diversified his creativity, and I think that his success is testament to the drive behind that. Do you have any takeaways on his trajectory

Speaker 2 (00:38:36):

Where he is going?

Speaker 1 (00:38:37):

Yeah, just this amount of success that he's had, how you said that you're using all Time Low as an example for

Speaker 3 (00:38:45):

Sure.

Speaker 1 (00:38:46):

Is there anything that you would take from the Machine Gun Kelly example to advise other artists with?

Speaker 2 (00:38:53):

Yeah, more of everything. Just literally, it's just like, have no shame in it. Try this, try that. Okay. No one cared about me putting up five covers on YouTube. Our reaction, even from our usual fans, doesn't give a shit. Maybe go this way, start a podcast over here. Start a behind the scenes thing there. I think that's what I've taken from him. And when an artist will come to me and be like, no one's focusing on my song. I'm like, well, how are you telling him about it? You know what I mean? What are you doing? And outside of putting up an Instagram story that someone posted and you reposted that's in your bubble, how are you stepping out? Are you making playlists of what inspired you to make that song and putting 'em out through your fans and tagging the other artists. So it's a constant game of getting new eyeballs, but through the right reasons where you're linking with people.

(00:39:46):

And again, I think cover songs do that, inspiration lists do that, and it's not always about pointing directly back to that song either, which I think a lot of people forget. It's about just being yourself in the sense that people want to hear what you say. I guess, where it's like if you are out there being like, holy shit, Phantom Planet just dropped a record yesterday, which is a weird one to use as an example, but that's a band I've loved for 20 years, and they just randomly dropped the record out of nowhere. It's like if I was an artist, I would fucking go light that up and down and be like, holy shit. Remember that band from the fucking oc? They just put out a record. Just talking in general about current music makes you, I think, more of a trusted source of like, oh, I should follow and listen to what this person's saying, and you're not going to hit everyone every single time. And that's the other part of it. It's just patience. But again, my main feedback is always just do more shit, whatever it is, and find the stuff that works, go all in on it and stuff that doesn't maybe stick it out if it's easy to do, but if it's not helping you be more well-rounded, then stop doing it.

Speaker 1 (00:40:47):

Finn and I were talking about something that you brought up the have no shame thing.

Speaker 3 (00:40:52):

Sure.

Speaker 1 (00:40:53):

We were talking about this the other day, that a lot of people hold themselves back in what they'll do on the internet because they're afraid of what's some random is going to think of them.

Speaker 2 (00:41:05):

Totally.

Speaker 1 (00:41:05):

And the moment that you let that baggage go is when you can really start making a difference online. I've noticed.

Speaker 2 (00:41:14):

Oh, a hundred percent. And I think that that's everyone's biggest fear ever, especially in social media, is having the one person out of the thousand people go, dude, you're so fucking lame. I can't believe you would've even tried that. And then you're like, see, I told you I'm out. It's like, what? 999 people just fucking, there's a classic story that I was told early, early on from the owners of Drive-Through Records that newfound Glory headlining at their first ever headlining tour after they had their first big hit, whatever, 18 years ago or something. And the drummer said it was the first night of the first tour ever that they did that size 2000 tickets in every market or something sold out in advance. And he said he walked off stage and everyone was freaking the fuck out. That was the best. We finally did that. They were there for us. This is our first time headlining. This is crazy. And then the drummer walks up to the owners of Drive-Through. He is like, there was this one fucking guy in the front that was just flicking me off the whole show. We're the headliners. Why is he even there? They're like, who cares? He's like, no, I couldn't shake it. I had a bad show. I didn't enjoy any of it because this guy, they're like, did you look up at all into the second floor

Speaker 3 (00:42:22):

Balcony

Speaker 2 (00:42:23):

With 800 extra people? It's like, and he just couldn't shake it. And it's like that to me has been the metaphor of all of it, especially on the internet, where it's just like it could be one person or 1 billion people if it gets viral or whatever. So it's like, to me, I get it, but it's also the second you can hopefully control that and lose that fear of like, well then fuck that guy. He paid money to be here and flick me off the whole show at my show. Cool. You got to be able to flip that.

Speaker 1 (00:42:50):

I was reading about this. There's a theory that this is linked to how we evolved, basically, that our brain is designed to scan for threats, and basically the idea being that we're not equipped for our modern world, so the world has advanced much faster than we've evolved. So we still share our old caveman traits, except we're in this crazy ass world, and so our brain is constantly looking for threats, so it's going to amplify the threat coming in through the comments or the one person. And so you need to realize that and realize you're just following your programming and you can actually let it go irrational.

Speaker 2 (00:43:35):

Oh, it's crazy.

Speaker 1 (00:43:36):

Yeah. It doesn't make any rational sense. It makes sense if you are in the wild looking for something that might kill you,

Speaker 2 (00:43:45):

Right?

Speaker 1 (00:43:45):

It makes no sense when you're looking at YouTube comments.

Speaker 2 (00:43:48):

Totally. I think maybe it's easier to say in an internet world than it is in a live setting as well, where you're just at any moment that, dude, he's ruining my day. Right? On the internet, you're like, skater, punk, oh five. You're like, cool, eat shit or don't respond at all, but whatever. But yeah, I mean, still there's a switch you got to flip. You know what I mean? And you and I have talked about public speaking and all that, and I told you how not excited I was to do the URM thing, but I'm going to do it. I have to do it at some point. So

Speaker 1 (00:44:20):

You did great.

Speaker 2 (00:44:20):

Oh, it was awesome. Thank you. I mean, Finn was a fucking champ to do it with me and help me through it, to be honest. So if for some reason that was definitely not going as great as it went in the first 10 minutes and I just felt like, dude, you're losing right now. It would suck. I would definitely, it's a lot harder in the moment in person to flip that switch, but I think once you can do any sort of that, it'll change everything. Especially we're getting back to the point of having no shame and just doing a million things on the internet for your band, for your project, for the brand, or whatever you are. You got to do it. You just got to let go of it.

Speaker 1 (00:44:59):

I think another thing that you brought up is that not everybody's going to see everything you do. So

(00:45:04):

One of the main reasons that you've got to do a lot is because there is so much out there constantly bombarding people that A, if you do something today, they're probably going to forget about it by tomorrow, but B, you don't even know that they saw that. And so for instance, this comes up sometimes when we're making content with producers like, this other producer covered this topic, should we not do it? Or, I talked about it on the podcast, should I do it on nail the mix? And it's like, well, we should do it if it makes sense to do it, we shouldn't worry about if somebody else did because

Speaker 2 (00:45:46):

Never.

Speaker 1 (00:45:46):

Yeah. How do you even know that everyone who's going to listen to your thing or watch your thing even know that that other one exists,

Speaker 2 (00:45:54):

Right? And big deal. The three people that watched both or whatever, a number, they're not going to be like, bro, what the fuck? You're copying this? And by the way, even if

Speaker 1 (00:46:03):

No, they definitely won't be,

Speaker 2 (00:46:04):

And even if they were cool, it wasn't for you, then you didn't have to watch another version of this. That's all good.

Speaker 1 (00:46:12):

I've never once in five years of doing this gotten that complaint from people.

Speaker 2 (00:46:18):

Fair enough. And I'm thankful that gives me more faith that people aren't as stupid as they sometimes act.

Speaker 1 (00:46:24):

Well, some are

Speaker 2 (00:46:25):

Right in other ways. Sure. I think we're saying the same thing about just getting out of your own way wherever you can, and I think the potential you unlock when you let yourself do new shit. And trust me, when I'm post certain shit every now and again, I'm like, man, this person follows me. So if they see it, they'll think I'm lame or this or that.

Speaker 1 (00:46:45):

Yeah. So I

Speaker 2 (00:46:47):

Of course you have to, but then you usually go, yeah, fuck it. My main thing is always like, well, if that person didn't follow you, would you post it? And you're like, yeah, then it's over. Fucking hit it. And same thing, it's all about a weird, that's such an egotistical thing for me to think that not only that person is going to see it, then they're going to take the time to judge it, and then if they did, ever reach out to me and judge it to me, that's such a crazy step where I was in a meeting the other day with a band and they were like, well, you obviously saw the Instagram story. I posted about that. I'm like, well, sorry to burst your bubble. But no, I haven't been on the internet today. I do follow about two to 3000 people, so the odds of me seeing every single thing that every one of them posts is impossible. It's just I wouldn't have a job. I wouldn't have a life. So no, I did not see what you posted. So why don't you go ahead and paraphrase it for me if you think it's important.

Speaker 1 (00:47:39):

I mean, we are the center of our own universe, so we amplify the importance of these things. I remember one of our first tours back in the doth days was with Unearth, the way it all worked out was I ended up having to ride on the unearth bus, just like my band was on another bus, and it is the way it worked out. So it was me and on earth and their crew, and they had, remember they had a list of rules or 10 Commandments or something to live by. The one at the top was, nobody cares,

Speaker 2 (00:48:15):

Man. That's great.

Speaker 1 (00:48:16):

When you realize that, obviously it's not like a hundred percent true statement or anything like that, but it's a good way to approach all this stuff that you do is that's kind of the base level. The baseline is nobody cares. Most shit you do, most people are not going to even pay attention to. And if you can do stuff that actually makes them care, that's great, but just remember their baseline is not caring.

Speaker 2 (00:48:44):

Sure. It's a lot easier.

Speaker 1 (00:48:46):

Yeah. So you blow these things out of proportion.

Speaker 2 (00:48:48):

Yeah, it's great. I mean, yeah, I'm right there with you. I love the thought of no one's fucking paying attention to you right now anyway. You're lucky if they are. So don't stress about it.

Speaker 1 (00:49:00):

Hey, everybody, if you're enjoying this podcast, then you should know that it's brought to you by URM Academy, URM Academy's mission is to create the next generation of audio professionals by giving them the inspiration and information to hone their craft and build a career doing what they love. You've probably heard me talk about Nail the Mix before, and if you're a member, you already know how amazing it is. The beginning of the month, nail the mix members, get the raw multitracks to a new song by artists like Lama, God Angels and Airwaves. Knock Loose OPEC shuga, bring Me the Horizon. Gaira asking Alexandria Machine Head and Papa Roach among many, many others over 60 at this point. Then at the end of the month, the producer who mixed it comes on and does a live streaming walkthrough of exactly how they mix the song on the album and takes your questions live on air.

(00:49:52):

And these are guys like TLA Will Putney, Jens Borin, Dan Lancaster, to I Mattson, Andrew Wade, and many, many more. You'll also get access to Mix Lab, which is our collection of dozens of bite-sized mixing tutorials that cover all the basics, as well as Portfolio Builder, which is a library of pro quality multi-tracks cleared for use in your portfolio. So your career will never again be held back by the quality of your source material. For those of you who really want to step up their game, we have another membership tier called URM Enhance, which includes everything I already you about, and access to our massive library of fast tracks, which are deep, super detailed courses on intermediate and advanced topics like gain, staging, mastering, low end and so forth. It's over 500 hours of content. And man, let me tell you, this stuff is just insanely detailed.

(00:50:45):

Enhanced members also get access to one-on-ones, which are basically office hour sessions with us and Mix Rescue, which is where we open up one of your mixes and fix it up and talk you through exactly what we're doing at every step. So if any of that sounds interesting to you, if you're ready to level up your mixing skills in your audio career, head over to URM Academy to find out more. So considering that you founded your own label at 18, you've been in this for a while, have you ever seen anything hit the music industry or all industries like this pandemic?

Speaker 2 (00:51:22):

I would definitely say no. I would say the only closest thing to it from stories of people and mentors around me when I was first really getting ripping was the Napster era of stuff. But that wasn't hard to categorize it even similarly, just outside of the amount of shit it changed. But that was obviously a technological issue versus, I mean, not even an issue because it changed the game. It actually, weirdly enough, in hindsight, helped make the industry more money. It just stopped it for a while, but now it forced you to get creative and create the streaming platforms,

Speaker 3 (00:51:58):

Which

Speaker 2 (00:51:59):

Now make the fucking labels and artists way more money. I don't care what anyone says, if you don't like fucking Spotify's payments, then don't fucking put your music on it. It's up to you.

Speaker 1 (00:52:09):

I agree.

Speaker 2 (00:52:10):

So it has changed the game for the better for every single part of the music industry. So nothing has ever come close to it, COVID, and this is doing right now. Second place I think would be Naper definitely within my lifetime. That's the only two major hiccups, if you will, in like, well throw your plan out the window because it no longer exists. That kind of mentality. I can't even mean prior to it. I'm sure there was some even that people I grew up looking up to hadn't gone through either. So no, this is definitely the craziest shit ever. The amount of people, including the presidents of our own label are like nothing like this has ever fucking happened. We're learning together. We're open to creative ideas and criticisms at the same time. Let's all get in the bunker together and see what the hell's going on.

Speaker 1 (00:52:58):

Something beautiful about that.

Speaker 2 (00:53:00):

There is again, someone had said it to me in the beginning of it and I was complaining about the all-time low record that was very current for me. And again, my ego, the center of my universe. And then someone was like, yeah, but think about it. Everyone in your position is on the exact same playing field it has been even so the problems you are having, so is everyone else. This isn't a you thing. It's not like the presidents of your label quit and now you have no leadership, but all the rest of them do. No one knows what the fuck is going on right now, so be the first ones to try certain things. Do it with a smile, do it with positive energy and let's go. Let's just try everything. And that to me shook me and I'm so glad someone had said that to me the first week or two of the pandemic, like, fuck this. When bands complain to me, that's a very short conversation. It's not a long three hour vent to me thing. It's like, hey, every band on your record labels roster and every other roster, the bands we're going to tour with your friends' bands, call them and see how they're doing. It's the same fucking problems. So you could wallow in it or we could get to work

Speaker 1 (00:54:04):

When it first happened, and I was talking to friends of mine that are artists, that's what I would tell them too. Basically anybody who was depressed, that's actually what I would say is I understand, but just remember everyone's in the same boat, so it's not like you got fired or something or your life fell apart and everybody else is moving forward. Everyone is in the exact same spot. So that means means you're good. So make the best of it.

Speaker 2 (00:54:36):

You're fine. Yeah, I mean you and I have talked about this too, talked in general, but now more than ever when I talk to people to catch up or whatever and it's like, dude, I'm so bored. I'm like, holy shit. I was like, that's impossible. That's a choice at this point. It's straight up a choice. That's it. Because you could do so many things right now because one, any of this bored, downtime, free time, this is the time you could do anything you've never had time to do. Literally, there's nothing else to do

Speaker 1 (00:55:09):

Except for go to Walmart

Speaker 2 (00:55:10):

There, you go on in. If that's your jam, bro, get there. It kills me when people say it. I'm trying to keep a straight face. I'm like, I'm the busiest I've ever been in my entire life and I'm not even traveling. So it's like think of what that means to me.

Speaker 1 (00:55:25):

I don't understand it. When someone tells me that they're bored during this, I don't want to be judgmental, but I can't help it. I can't help it because I know that they're choosing, like you said, it's a choice. I know that they're choosing them because how I haven't been bored at all this entire time.

Speaker 2 (00:55:45):

I love that you're at a loss for worth

Speaker 1 (00:55:48):

Because I don't understand.

Speaker 2 (00:55:50):

I mean look to simplify it, if you were bored right now and you were like, man, I always wanted to learn how to fucking fix cars or something or anything, use any example. There is unlimited internet resources, videos, essays, stories. There's unlimited books that are no more than $20 a piece at best. So buy one, whatever it is, it's like, or whatever profession you're in, just get better at it, get more educated and learn more of the history of things you could take from when Motown exploded this or that or anything in the music. There's so many stories. I literally go back through a and r people's histories and I look at every record they made and I have it all documented. Not only what they made, when they made it, how they made it, when they signed that artist, what the sales were,

Speaker 1 (00:56:39):

You were telling me about this, but I want to hear more about this research project.

Speaker 2 (00:56:43):

It's like I just do it when I need to. It's almost like my getaway in a sense because I've always been so intrigued. I'm a very visual learner and when I could put this, map it out in front of me. So I picked a bunch of people that I've looked up to, basically the era right before I got involved, whether it be Craig Aronson at Warner, Richie Egan at Vnt, Richard and Stephanie at Drive-through my old boss and mentor John Janick at Field by Ramen. There's a bunch and I actually just found a bunch of new ones to start digging into and I use it as this big inspirational list of what was their first big breakout record and how many were before it and once they had that one, did they use that momentum and get more of that kind of artist or were they able to jump genre to genre and just how difficult it was at those times.

(00:57:31):

I even go back to the David Geffen book, buys and Sells Hollywood I just finished a month ago was basically that in a nutshell because he did it twice and very separately, did it twice on a culture shifting level. So to me it was like all it does is strengthen things. So then I put one together on myself after I put 10 of these together and I'm like, okay, cool. You had three really incredible things early, but then you got really lazy in the middle. And I did, and it's a really interesting snapshot of I was coasting and I wasn't digging in and I wasn't pushing myself. And then this last three or four years now I'm putting things on the board where I'm like, oh shit, I think I'm finding my stride and I'm finding my moments where there's a couple gold singles here, a couple of gold records here, and there's a couple multi-platinum records just via tones.

(00:58:18):

And I more recently, it's like all of these different things where I'm like, holy shit, you're kind of having that moment here, but then it's good that I watch all these other people have it to be like, how did they not lose that moment? Now more than ever, you have to work harder to stay and keep putting those up versus reverting back, if ever back to some sort of lazier pattern again of just phoning it in. So to me, that's how I've strengthened my not only motivation but inspiration and just learned from those things. And I've never talked to any of those people about it outside of my old boss. I've watched it. I was at the front row seat, but that's the way that I learn. So when I can put those research projects together for myself, no one's ever seen them. You know what I mean? It's straight up Excel sheets with notes on it so there's nothing fancy. But even doing that helped me understand and pause myself and go, where am I on this guy's scale? Where am I on this person's scale? Where am I here? It's just a fun, interesting way to get better at what I do by just learning from what other people who did it great how they did it.

Speaker 1 (00:59:20):

Where are you finding info? Where are you pulling it from

Speaker 2 (00:59:23):

A bunch of places. I mean for the most part, the basis of these things are the records that you can go to a lot of their Wikipedias even and they have a good amount of it, but then you can go to the labels histories just via interviews that they've done or whatever. And then I have access just through work of all the sales and all that stuff. So then I'm able to kind of pinpoint put that in there

Speaker 1 (00:59:45):

And then you put it all in and then you analyze it.

Speaker 2 (00:59:48):

Yeah, totally. And it's not an analyzation in the sense of just percentages or anything along the lines. It's more of just runs that they had Craig and sign fucking My Chem, the uses taking back Sunday, just all of these crazy artists from that era that we're all just putting up platinum record after platinum record. And you're like, that dude just found the culture wave. Same thing I do in the sense with Crush Management who did follow-up Boy because there's an actual incredible interview with Jonathan Daniel who was a co-founder of the label or management company on Mark Marin like a year, year and a half ago. I would recommend to anyone because he started in the mail room and he met someone, he met someone, he met someone, he found a hit and he wouldn't shut up about it. And then he just has a really zen-like approach to hit records, big bands. And when he found follow play, he's like, no one was touching that kind of music and I didn't understand why. So I signed six different ones and they all became big, all of them. So it's like just finding other people's entry points is so interesting to me because a lot of people don't have connections at first, much like myself. I assume yourself the way that we've talked and you just fucking found your opening and were like, oh, I'm going to go do that.

Speaker 1 (01:01:01):

Yeah. It was this interesting thing where I guess for a long time I knew I wanted to do something that made a big impact that was that kind of

(01:01:11):

Pooled all my experience and expertise together. And it's similar but different, but similar in that there were certain movements that I had been watching for a long time. I had been watching just through experience, people adopting home studios. I was seeing what it was like in a big studio with bands who did home studio stuff. I was just seeing that entire evolution and then Creative Live, and then I did my own analysis of that and then it just made perfect sense that it's like this is the next step now the mix is what the world's missing.

Speaker 2 (01:01:52):

Great. And I love that you kind of by your own experiences and your own research came to the conclusion of this is how I would put it all together. From what I've learned,

Speaker 1 (01:02:03):

There was a ton of evidence to support.

Speaker 2 (01:02:04):

Totally.

Speaker 1 (01:02:05):

It wasn't just some random idea, it was based on everything I'd been seeing for over 10 years.

Speaker 2 (01:02:12):

Exactly. And I guess it goes back to no one's an overnight success. You never get that lucky unless you're ready to be that lucky in a sense when opportunity hits. But

Speaker 1 (01:02:22):

No, definitely not. The thing about Nail the Mix is it took off immediately. The very first month it took off, but it took off because of all that research and everything leading up to it.

Speaker 2 (01:02:34):

Of course you didn't let anything, there was no cracks in the foundation. You set it up, right?

Speaker 1 (01:02:39):

Yeah. So I think it's interesting that you're looking at these great a and r people and seeing kind of how you measure up, but then also just finding what the lessons are that that are timeless basically.

Speaker 3 (01:02:56):

Because

Speaker 1 (01:02:56):

Obviously there's some things that they encountered that are very much a part of their time, but I really do feel like the deeper lessons are timeless things. How do you separate that? How do you separate, they made that move because of the era they moved in or lived in or worked in versus they made that move because that's the move,

Speaker 2 (01:03:17):

Right. Well, I think the thing I took from that sort of maybe answers your question is the ones that evolved are the ones that are still around today. Whether they started as young a and r people 20 years ago, they now are presidents of major labels, whether it be the same label or moved on, which is exciting. And then the ones that didn't evolve no longer run record labels, you know what I mean? So it's a very interesting, you can ride your wave of the moment of a genre, of a scene of whatever, but every scene ends or at least gets diminished. It doesn't just keep growing forever when it goes in these cycles. So it's like whomever signed a bunch of the new metal stuff in the early two thousands, they probably don't do the same thing. I mean, outside of the legend Monte Connor, who fucking runs nuclear blast, but

Speaker 1 (01:04:07):

Yeah, he doesn't do new metal anymore though.

Speaker 2 (01:04:09):

Totally. But he evolved in the genre, so it's like, I mean, not that he started there either, by the way. So he's got a long history and he's fucking incredible. But everyone, if you would live and die in it, those people aren't around anymore. I mean, I just pulled up the Rob Stevenson from Island and it's like, dude, that guy was putting up some 41 fucking fall up way the killers saliva thrive, the bravery. He was touching all of these things in a four year window. Think of that run of just mainstream success in rock and pop. And it's like that dude now runs, basically he is like, I don't know what his title is at Republic, but he is like the number two or three person working with Post Malone and of Monsters and Men and all these cool things. It's like that dude jumped around and he wasn't known as the pop rock guy because then now he's doing a bunch of pop stuff or really cool indie shit.

(01:04:59):

So it's like, to me it's about evolution and it's not about being afraid to push yourself beyond it. And I think it's just about knowing when you need to change. But also for me, I've changed and signed things that 10 years ago I would've never signed because I've just learned that artistry's artistry, you know what I mean? If someone means it, you can get behind it. It doesn't have to fit on a fucking playlist between the two bands you grew up listening to in order for you to be passionate about it anymore. But 15-year-old me, I would argue with you on that. So now about to be 37 years old, I am definitely more understanding of like, okay, you could sign a hip hop artist if he's trying to convey this message that you believe in and you could help give a platform. Let's go.

Speaker 1 (01:05:43):

Okay, so speaking of evolution and a scene that is your scene, not to limit you, but I know that you love this stuff. The email in the pop punk industry basically boomed in the early two thousands, and I think it's carried over for well over a decade, and we've still got some amazingly huge bands. Do you think it's plateaued at all? And if it has plateaued, do you want there to be a resurgence or are you looking for the next thing? How does all that evolution talk apply to you with that genre? That is kind of your thing.

Speaker 2 (01:06:24):

Sure. Well, I think along the way I've broadened kind of the genres throughout just by necessity of not finding the younger bands that I thought were doing it well, which obviously you always have to look to the youth, right? There was less bands that sounded like Follow-Up Boy or Taking Back Sunday or Brand New or whatever was really, really coming out of those scenes in fucking elevating at the time. It just doesn't exist the way it did. I mean, I think you and I maybe have had this kind of talk before that those kids are no longer going to garages with five people and trying to coordinate five egos to then get off work together and quit college and tour, and now they're doing it themselves with laptops. So it's just, it's kind of morphed into a different lane of the emo SoundCloud. Rap is kind of the new pop punk band in a sense.

(01:07:14):

There still are pop punk bands obviously, but I don't think I'm looking against it. I wish, dude, dude, if there was five bands that blew me away in that genre right now, and I thought I could create a little bit of a movement together, I'm in. I'm all in. I'm definitely not shut off. I just go to where I feel excited and I see a path. If I can see a trajectory and hear an artist's vision and say, I can help you get there, let's do that together. I don't care what they sound like. There's definitely nothing's off limits. I've definitely been in on trying to sign artists that make no sense for the record labels I work at, but to me that's what expands and that's the evolution of it all. When labels sign their first oddball, yeah, it's looked at a little weird, but those are the things that excite me the most because they have to kind of blaze that trail and those have the shot to be the biggest band.

(01:08:01):

The bands that sound like the other bands don't have a shot most likely to be bigger than that band. So it's like you've got to find, I don't know, just whatever hits me the right way, dude. And I always have to look at it. And I am talking to an artist right now actually, and I was like, we have to be on the same page. If all goes right, we're going to know each other for the next 20 to 30 years and we're going to have to work together every single day. And that sounds exhausting, but it's true. And a lot of my friends that 20 years ago signed to their record labels like a follow-up boy, like a panic at the disco, all these other bands, they still deal with the same fucking people for the most part that are making decisions on every single album cycle. So I just want to always be sure that even if there have been artists where I love their music, I love their records, and I do not click with them, I'm out. Life's too short, Evan have a very clear, no asshole policy. I'm not interested in that. So those artists can go onto other labels and probably be successful, but it's just like I don't need the 3:00 AM calls from someone that I don't believe is in it for the right reason or whatever it is.

Speaker 1 (01:09:05):

It makes perfect sense. And speaking of seeing a path, so you said you need to be able to see a path, and that's kind of like I was just saying with now the mix and stuff. I saw a path that was super clear. So what does it look like to you when you can see a path? Is it a feel thing or is it like, do you have hard evidence? I know there's no set path, but how do you know when there is one?

Speaker 2 (01:09:29):

I like to pretend I know, I guess is a good way to put it.

Speaker 1 (01:09:33):

I guess nobody's got a crystal ball, but

Speaker 2 (01:09:36):

Right. I guess to me it's a combination, a little bit of data, comparing it to other things I've seen. That's another thing I love to do new, nice to always talk about it is reverse engineer other people's success, other artists success. How did it work? What was the first big boom? What was the first wall they broke through? Can this artist do that? If they can, I think we could get here. Then. I think it's always a comparison thing when you're looking at a trajectory and it's not necessarily a sound comparison. This is the momentum this artist has gained on their own by doing this, this, and this. That reminds me of when this artist did this, this, and this. Those two artists can't tour together. They're 10 years apart, whatever it is. I just love to always again, educate myself on why things happen, why I missed certain artists.

(01:10:22):

We do it all the time, well, how did I miss this artist on SoundCloud? Why wasn't anyone looking at this? Whatever it is. And then we go back and recreate a system to make sure we don't miss that on the next round. If something similar happened, we would see it early enough to have a conversation. So it's always just refining that. And with the path thing, I don't pretend to know. I think the data of everything is smarter than everyone. So if I have the best artists in the world that has no fan base whatsoever, I know if we can get this in front of these tastemakers, these artists to help take 'em on tour, these couple people to help co-sign us, that's my path. And from there, then my gut's got to be right, that music was good enough to get there, or that artist is good enough to write that music once we do get there.

(01:11:02):

The other side of it is sometimes the data is just screaming at you where you're like, holy shit, this is happening on its own. Not only it's happening here, it's happening all over other countries. No one's promoting it. How is this happening? What is this doing? I'm not smarter than that. I go to that person and I'm like, what are you doing? This is fucking awesome. Do you want to link up so my company can pour gas on that and we could all fucking go off together? So that's the kind of very simplified version of finding and understanding the data that's already available to most of the labels in my position that you can just got to build your systems to understand it and read it.

Speaker 1 (01:11:43):

You said something that I definitely want to ask you about this idea out there that to get signed by a label, you absolutely have to have the numbers and the data screaming at you, which obviously it helps, but you just brought up the example of what if somebody has no fans?

Speaker 2 (01:12:03):

Totally.

Speaker 1 (01:12:04):

So you're open to that. You're open to signing somebody who you just think is great, but is nowhere. How does that happen?

Speaker 2 (01:12:13):

So I mean, how do I find that thing?

Speaker 1 (01:12:16):

Yeah. And is that more rare that you would take the chance on?

Speaker 2 (01:12:21):

It's more rare that I find something that I'm the only one finding is a better way to put it. Got it. Because usually if I'm finding something that I think is great, usually other people have found it and are also putting it on playlists or whatever. I won't say the artist, but a quick example is I'm in an hour speaking with an artist that has 9,000 monthly listeners on their Spotify, and their biggest song is just Past 10,000 listens. So no one has heard of this artist,

(01:12:50):

And I love the EP from the artist that they just put out in May, so it's only four weeks old. Someone sent it to me because a friend of a friend managed it and was like, Hey, this is interesting. You should check it out. No numbers, no playlist, no nothing. And I was just like, holy shit. I need to know more about this. This is very exciting to me. To where if it all goes well, and the conversation is, I would love to work with you if it makes sense. I want to understand the vision and the person, that's the next step for me. And if I believed this artist and I was like, what you did on your own is amazing. I think if you could continue to show me new music, and if I felt the same about it again, I would have a very clear roadmap of the ways who to put it in front of, whether it be the Spotify editorial team, whether it be certain press outlets that will co-sign the artists in the similar lanes.

(01:13:40):

If I could get this, if I can get that, I would definitely go back to this artist with that plan and say, look, I think if you delivered five more songs that are those songs, we could trickle 'em out over the next six months, get this partner, get this partner, get this partner one by one by one. And then we will very much be in the ball game, I think by them to be like, oh shit, it's happening. So if I could be the person that connects those dots for you and you could keep delivering the music you're delivering, I think we'd be a really good team right now. That's the conversation.

Speaker 1 (01:14:10):

How do you even find them if no one else has found them? How do you even come across them?

Speaker 2 (01:14:16):

It becomes your network. We have a and R Scouts, we have friends of the company, we have managers, lawyers, agents, promoters. I mean, when you build, I've been doing this 18 years now. So through those 18 years, I'd like to think that a lot of people kind of have my back and I have theirs. And if there's the right thing, I assume if you found a band tomorrow, dude, you would text me and go, yo, Johnny, you have to hear this. It feels like fucking Roadrunner to me. Right?

Speaker 1 (01:14:45):

Of course.

Speaker 2 (01:14:45):

That's a conversation you and I would have

Speaker 1 (01:14:48):

Without a doubt.

Speaker 2 (01:14:48):

Totally. So those are the kinds of things that to me, speak loudly on people's character. Where I get hit up, I don't even want to put a number on it, five, 10 times a day with artists, just a Spotify link sometimes, no words and just like here. And I'm like, cool. Click it. Listen through two songs, move through it. Yeah, this was cool. What is it? What's the story? Or Holy shit, get on the phone with me. Who is this? That thing. And this one just happened to be that it was a friend of mine that bumped into the artist and was just like, this is a hidden gem. This is crazy. It's really good. Here's the backstory, no one's covered this yet. No editorial playlist yet. I haven't sent it to anyone else, but my friend is managing it now, and that was it.

Speaker 1 (01:15:30):

So what people say is about don't send it in yourself always. You have to go in through a trusted source. It's kind of the truth.

Speaker 2 (01:15:40):

Yeah, somewhat. Yeah. I mean, I definitely get the random unsolicited band email that if you catch me at the right time of being bored or just a time where I need a break from picking my head up and going, cool, I'll take 10 minutes right now and click through a couple links. And it, it's a weird sensitive part where I hate that sometimes in the sense that if I don't respond, they think I didn't listen. But I also don't want to respond and just be like, Hey, I didn't like it at all, or whatever. It's one of many things. So I don't want to say if I didn't respond, I don't like your band, but you know what I mean? It's just a difficult precedent to set because usually I'm listening to this shit at fucking 1:00 AM when I can't sleep or something.

Speaker 1 (01:16:27):

That's usually how it is for me with things that I normally won't do when getting hit up about, it's usually like, I can't sleep. It's 1:00 AM this dude wants me to check out his mix. Alright, alright.

Speaker 2 (01:16:40):

Right. I literally have a list that as people send it, I'm looking at it right now. I throw anything on there and when I'm like, all right, I got 20 minutes, my call didn't start yet. I rip through two, three artists that I'm like, oh, shit. Okay, cool.

Speaker 1 (01:16:55):

Got it. That makes sense.

Speaker 2 (01:16:56):

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:16:57):

I'm wondering about something, we were talking about streaming and how it's making a ton of money. Why do you think people have such a negative feeling about it considering that the numbers are so good and basically the music industry has been saved?

Speaker 2 (01:17:15):

Sure. I just don't get the difference that if you put your music on Spotify and people have their own equations in their head that aren't reality. It's like if you put 10 of your records in every single store in the world, how many would you sell? Right? And it's probably for the size of band that I see complaining not many. And what does that leave? So those other people spent time, money, shelf space, et cetera, on stocking your record that no one's making money on. So you're kind of making a similar percentage in a way of what you did because you've opened yourself up to the world at Spotify, they're giving you the shot. They have free listeners, they have paid listeners. It's different equations. I hate that people look at it as an income versus a promotional thing too. Because to me, until you hit huge numbers, you weren't going to make money anyway.

(01:18:11):

Whether you're selling CDs or digital downloads or whatever, especially dude, digital downloads, I think it's Apple keeps 30%, then you're labeled and use split whatever fucking denominations you signed your deal for. So it's like, I just never understand. I get it that they're like, look, it should be more great. I'm sure Spotify would love to pay you more, so you're happier to promote it or something. Right? It's not a evil scheme that's out to get you. And if you don't go to Bandcamp, then go to SoundCloud, go to wherever else. You could control it more and set your own percentages. But Spotify is the all they have the following, not you. It is their following. So if they bump into your music, especially through one of their playlists or Al's fucking rocking tunes of 2020, that's still Spotify's fucking following. You know what I mean?

(01:19:06):

And it's this crazy thing where it's like, I think the expectation, and it's an ego thing. It's like a weird, we deserve more. It's like, cool, well go to the places that give. There are services that give you more, but why does Spotify have to match those places? That's not a thing. You know what I mean? I don't know. I get caught in arguments for it all the time that I'm like, then don't be on it. I don't know. What do you want me to do? They're losing money. They're not even fucking making money. Don't you think they want to pay you?

Speaker 1 (01:19:38):

That's what Finn and I say all the time is the company's not making a profit yet. So

Speaker 3 (01:19:44):

The idea

Speaker 1 (01:19:45):

Is, it's interesting too that I think a lot of people just don't understand what goes into running a company like that.

Speaker 2 (01:19:54):

It's crazy.

Speaker 1 (01:19:55):

The expense involved, I think that they think that because it's online, they just don't know. They don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:20:02):

Yeah. They're not going to make money for a while.

Speaker 1 (01:20:04):

Yeah. They don't know what a massive undertaking it is to

Speaker 2 (01:20:08):

And with a technology company like that, as you can speak on, can you imagine how much they're having to expand and pivot every single day to stay ahead of everything?

Speaker 1 (01:20:19):

It's crazy.

Speaker 2 (01:20:20):

Can't even imagine the sheer numbers of people that have to go emergency meeting, do this now. You know what I mean? Every single day.

Speaker 1 (01:20:28):

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:20:29):

And that's why it feels great to us as users because they do a great fucking job at it.

Speaker 1 (01:20:34):

I think they go through it every day, multiple times a day.

Speaker 2 (01:20:38):

I would agree. Certain departments and certain executives at that company have to just be miserable with stress, just miserable.

Speaker 1 (01:20:46):

I will say that one of the keys to running a successful technology company that has a site is being willing to pivot immediately. For instance, right around COVID time, we completely trashed new product plans. We were working on the Putney course that's going to come out later this year,

Speaker 3 (01:21:08):

But

Speaker 1 (01:21:08):

We were planning on releasing it in June, and we were like, the team was working on it and just

Speaker 2 (01:21:15):

Had to stop

Speaker 1 (01:21:16):

One meeting. I was like, stop working on it. We're completely changing. We have to, the ability to do that is what keeps you alive.

Speaker 2 (01:21:27):

Sure. And again, to be at the cutting edge of it, you know what I mean? There's not a ton of competition at that level for a company like Spotify. And the reason that you there isn't is because they do it so well that other people stop doing it. So they're that good at it. It's like them and Apple, and then you got your Amazons and Pandora's and a couple other things around it. But those are big ass companies too. So there's a reason that it's a small game and there's a reason that's why you complain about everything.

Speaker 1 (01:21:57):

Yeah, totally. One more thing I want to ask you about, and we were kind of getting into it earlier. So there's new digital engagement mediums that kind of have changed the way that artists interact with fans like Patreon and Cameo where fans, I mean, where artists kind of become almost like creative consultants for their fans. It's changed the fundamental nature of the relationship between them. I know that when I grew up, bands that I was a fan of were enigmas and this new way of doing things makes them normal people. Do you think that that's the future?

Speaker 2 (01:22:42):

Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I mean, it's funny the way you said it too. I wonder what Trent Resner was eating for breakfast back then. Right? Exactly. That's what I mean. You had no fucking clue if he was alive for three years at a time, let alone what he's doing on a Saturday morning. Yeah. I think it is the future. I mean,

Speaker 1 (01:23:02):

Do Saturday mornings even exist for Trent Resner back then,

Speaker 2 (01:23:06):

Right? He just goes in his chamber and he awakens every three weeks or something. Yeah, no, I think it is the future whether you like it or not. And unfortunately, it's like if you don't participate in it, you weirdly have a glaring difference sometimes mostly for the worst, where you're like, well, this band does it. Why don't you do this? I mean, I can remember back to the first paid meet and greet that I saw on Warp Tour, and everyone ripped them the shreds. It was the band called We The Kings, and they fucking destroyed them. Now, the five years following that, you couldn't go to a person's tent without a paid meet and greet. You know what I mean? It just takes time for it to become normal, where this stuff, the first time people were getting on these platforms and Paton, why the fuck would I pay you to show me background?

(01:23:53):

You should just show me background and how you made that song. And then you start to realize, oh, this is how I support my favorite artists. The paradigm has shifted of the income that they used to make from this or that, or the percentages are different or whatever. So it's just another evolution of a change. And it's like certain artists are really fucking good at it, and certain artists do not play the game. I don't know if it suffers. I have a few bands that don't like social media in general, so they'll post their tour dates and they'll post when they drop a new song. And that's cool. That's it. I mean, Sergio Simpson's famous for

Speaker 1 (01:24:31):

I think has to be a very special artist.

Speaker 2 (01:24:34):

Yes. To pull that off.

Speaker 1 (01:24:35):

I think OPEC does that, for instance. They don't do any of that shit and nobody cares because

Speaker 2 (01:24:42):

Yeah, you love Lopez.

Speaker 1 (01:24:43):

Yeah, exactly. But Msga, same thing. But I feel like, and I'm sure there's some way bigger bands too that are like that, but I think it has to be a very special artist that has a very, I don't know, a very established identity. And that identity that people love has to be something that would be incompatible with doing it

Speaker 2 (01:25:05):

With those mediums. Right. I mean, even just the two bands you just named them being on Patreon would feel fucking strange. It would feel strange.

Speaker 3 (01:25:13):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:25:14):

So I think, yeah, look, it is the future. Some bands pull it off. Well, some bands phone it in and it looks terrible. I mean, it's the same thing when Kickstarter and Indiegogo and all these fucking things popped up. Some bands would fucking phone it in, and they're way bigger than the bands that just got a hundred grand. But they didn't care. They didn't make it exciting or special. And everyone was like, fuck you. You've been on major labels for eight years. You got enough of my money. Just put out your record. You should fucking pay for it. Why am I paying for it?

Speaker 1 (01:25:41):

So I think that a lot of people, I think that this is, you just touched on why I think that people are so negative about these digital platforms and why they talk so much shit. So GoFundMe for instance, or I think it's a great idea. I think that, for instance, if you look at it like this, the way I see it is you're asking the market if they want something and they're responding with their wallets, funding it, and then you're delivering exactly what they asked for. I remember the author Seth Godin before he wrote a book, he wasn't sure if he should write it. So he did a GoFundMe for the book, raised 250 grand and wrote the book and then Cool.

Speaker 3 (01:26:26):

Perfect.

Speaker 1 (01:26:26):

I don't understand what the problem is with that. Doesn't it make sense that you find out if the market wants it

Speaker 3 (01:26:34):

And

Speaker 1 (01:26:34):

If the market wants it, they help pay for getting it made, and then, okay, so that's cool. But I think a lot of people like the ones who have phoned it in, or the ones who have not delivered what they said they would deliver, or basically the bad apples have given that kind of stuff a bad name

Speaker 2 (01:26:53):

A hundred percent. And I'm not saying I disagree with it, by the way. I'm saying the way that it came about to be, people weren't interested. They're like, why do I have to pay for it before it's made? Right. Which is strange. If you support it, you support it. But like I said, I think it wasn't compatible for certain band that weren't in touch with their fans or the market because they didn't deliver them. A GoFundMe for a band that just got off of a major label for eight years should be so easy and obvious and smart to do because you should know exactly along the way what your fans love, exactly what you can deliver for them on the next album cycle because you are controlling it now. There's no excuses of a bad product manager or digital marketer or whatever involved in it.

(01:27:36):

It's you. So you could just lay out every tier and just be like, this is what it is. Whoever wants it, we're going to rip it anyways. But we'd like to kind of hear from you at how involved you want to be and if we offer different packages, how interested you would be in a studio session or a visit or us to record some BSides or whatever it is. When you see it done right, it's really incredible. So like you said, though, I don't think it's right for everyone. I don't think every artist when the pandemic hit should have run out and got a TikTok because it doesn't work for everyone. There's not the right things. I think it's just the self-awareness thing. For a lot of the bands and teams,

Speaker 1 (01:28:14):

Self-awareness is huge. And one thing that Finn and I also, I keep bringing up Finn, but he taught me that when getting on platforms, you should only get on the ones that you're comfortable with first and realize that you can't dominate every single one. So pick your lanes, dominate those, and then move on from there.

Speaker 2 (01:28:36):

Sure. I love that.

Speaker 1 (01:28:37):

Yeah. Rather than just TikTok is out, we're going to do TikTok and I need a Patreon and I need a Twitch, and I need a YouTube channel going to

Speaker 2 (01:28:45):

All suffer. Yeah,

Speaker 1 (01:28:46):

Yeah, exactly. Like pick one or two,

Speaker 2 (01:28:48):

Crush it,

Speaker 1 (01:28:49):

Do great. Yeah. And then move on from there.

Speaker 2 (01:28:52):

That Finn guy is pretty smart, huh?

Speaker 1 (01:28:54):

I think he's pretty smart for beginner

Speaker 2 (01:28:57):

Shout out to.

Speaker 1 (01:29:00):

So cool. It's been awesome talking to you. I'm glad we got to catch up again.

Speaker 2 (01:29:05):

Cool. Well, no, same man, and I'm glad we've touched on pretty weird fucking shit for the third time in a row. I love it.

Speaker 1 (01:29:12):

My goal when people come back is to not repeat, because if people like this and then they go and they listen to your other two episodes and are like, oh, they talk about the same shit every time

Speaker 2 (01:29:25):

Once a year.

Speaker 1 (01:29:27):

Yeah. What's the point of that?

Speaker 2 (01:29:29):

I'm with you. Well, we'll think of some new shit next time around.

Speaker 1 (01:29:32):

I am sure that a year from now, the world is going to have given us plenty to talk about.

Speaker 2 (01:29:39):

Yeah. Another, where the fuck did the world go wrong, checkin, I guess, and how to make it right.

Speaker 1 (01:29:44):

I still think that 2020 has got phase three coming.

Speaker 2 (01:29:47):

We got stuff happening, man.

Speaker 1 (01:29:49):

We're in phase two right now.

Speaker 2 (01:29:50):

We're not done.

Speaker 1 (01:29:51):

Yeah. So it's going to get weirder. So hold on. We'll have, we'll have shit to talk about.

Speaker 2 (01:29:56):

Yeah. Cool.

Speaker 1 (01:29:57):

Well, awesome. Thank you, sir.

Speaker 2 (01:29:58):

Always, brother. You have a good weekend. I'll talk to you soon.

Speaker 1 (01:30:01):

Okay. Then another URM podcast episode in the bag. Please remember to share our episodes with your friends, as well as post them to your Facebook, Instagram, or any social media you use. Please tag me at Eyal Levi URM audio, and of course, please tag my guests as well. Till next time, happy mixing. You've been listening to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast. To ask us questions, make suggestions and interact, visit URM Academy and press the podcast link today.