CHRIS WISEMAN: DIY Band Success, Why You Don’t Need a Record Label, Crafting Dark Riffs

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast, and now your host, Eyal Levi. Welcome to the URM podcast. Thank you so much for being here. It's crazy to think that we're now on our fifth year, but it's true, and it's only because of you, the listeners, and if you'd like to see us stick around for another five years, there are a few simple things that you can do that would really, really help us out and I would be endlessly appreciative. Number one, share our episodes with your friends. If you get something out of these episodes, I'm sure they will too. So please share us with your friends. Number two, post our episodes on your Facebook and Instagram and tag me and our guests too. My Instagram is at al Levi urm audio, and let me just let you know that we love seeing ourselves tagged in these posts.

(00:00:57):

Who knows, we might even respond. And number three, leave us reviews and five stars please anywhere you can. We especially love iTunes reviews. Once again, I want to thank you all for the years and years of loyalty. I just want you to know that we will never, ever charge you for this podcast, and I will always work as hard as possible to improve the episodes in every single way possible. All I ask in return is a share post and a tag. Now let's get on with it. Hello everybody. Welcome to the URM podcast. My guest today is Chris Wiseman, who's a guitar player, producer, songwriter, mixer, and I would call him an entrepreneur in the metal world. He played with currents, if you've heard of them, but on the side he had a band called Shadow of Intent, which was actually in the March, 2020. Now the mix, which is considered to be the torch bearers for Death Corps.

(00:01:57):

And what's really, really crazy is that they have had a really impressive amount of success, completely independent of the industry. Like this is the dude behind it all who's got a great mind, a really cool musician, and excited to have him on. So I present you Chris Wiseman. Chris Wiseman, welcome to the URM Podcast. Thank you for having me. My pleasure. So I'm going to start by talking about myself a little bit, even though this is about you, but it's something that I kind of relate to you on and I have kind of a similar background. You stated in an interview once that Guitar Hero three was the beginning of your journey into heavy music, but your parents being professional musicians in the classical world crafted your early musical years. And my dad is from the classical world too. He's a conductor, and so I learned piano and violin before any of this metal shit happened like a decade before you started by playing cello and somehow you ended up in metal. A lot of people have asked me if it was a rebellion thing against my dad or something, which it never really was. What led to that switch for you?

Speaker 2 (00:03:14):

So yeah, that is interesting. That's pretty much my exact situation. I started piano at six, cello at 12, and just playing those instruments was really my parents' idea. I just wanted to play video games.

Speaker 1 (00:03:28):

So at six you said piano?

Speaker 2 (00:03:30):

Yep, exactly. And then 12 was cello

Speaker 1 (00:03:33):

At six, you wanted to play video games

Speaker 2 (00:03:35):

At every year of my life, yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:03:37):

Okay. Well then did they make you do it

Speaker 2 (00:03:40):

Sort of piano? I was more into, but cello, they really had to press a little more, but I would take weekly lessons, I would join the school orchestra, stuff like that. And then yeah, at age 14 we'll say is when my brother showed me Guitar Hero three and I didn't know what metal was, I didn't know what Metallica meant, what that was, but I really enjoyed the game and learning the music in the game and it was not a rebellion thing at all. I just found something I genuinely enjoyed and was passionate about and knew that is what I wanted to try to do for real, get a real guitar and try to play these songs and maybe one day have a band of my own. And the more I did it, the more I realized I really don't like playing cello or classical music nearly as much as I enjoy this. So in my mind it wasn't a rebellion thing at all. I just found something that I really liked and that I wanted to pursue.

Speaker 1 (00:04:47):

Well, pet peeve of mine, I'm curious how you feel about this is when people say that classical and metal are the same thing, so not in my opinion, like metal is riff based, riffs repeat. I mean there might be variations on them, but it's riff based and there's usually not going to be more than two or three different things happening at the same time. Orchestral music is not riff based. It's theme and variation based and it evolves and morphs and does crazy shit and there's no real defined tempo or it's so not the same thing. It bugs me when people say it is.

Speaker 2 (00:05:30):

So I think some people like here Marty Friedman or Ring Stein or here Metallica Ian fight Fire with Fire with that little acoustic thing and say, oh yeah, metal is

Speaker 1 (00:05:42):

Funny. Oh, it's classical

Speaker 2 (00:05:44):

And I mean maybe the musicians learned a baroque on acoustic guitar once and then said, oh, I want to try something like that.

Speaker 1 (00:05:54):

That's what it is.

Speaker 2 (00:05:55):

Yeah, my dad, I'll talk to him about classical versus metal sometimes and he literally says, metal is not complex. There's no theme. Like you said, that's the word he used. And yeah, the song structure is very different. I showed my dad test react once and he said, this is very repetitive, don't you think?

Speaker 1 (00:06:14):

Yeah, man, I showed my dad Dmu war gear once because I thought he would be impressed by the orchestration and all he did was talk shit about how basic and repetitive.

Speaker 2 (00:06:28):

Exactly. So yeah, I'm not going to try to make my dad understand or appreciate metal. I understand that classical music writing or counterpoint is a whole different level of composition that I honestly don't really understand. I have learned some Mozart songs back in the day and stuff like that, but I didn't really tear it apart and dive into how it was made much. I understand Al Turka has a repeating section, like the main theme and it goes into other stuff, but I never really understood how that's different if metal repeated apart and did a different theme, but I took his word for it and said, alright, well you're a music teacher, you teach at three different music schools, so if you say that I believe you because metal,

Speaker 1 (00:07:19):

Because you know your shit.

Speaker 2 (00:07:20):

Yeah. Metal and rock I believe is simpler than what you're doing, so I'll take your word for it even if I don't fully understand

Speaker 1 (00:07:27):

Which band I think comes the closest to incorporating legit orchestral writing structures is a flesh God apocalypse.

Speaker 2 (00:07:36):

I was going to guess you would say that. They definitely do the look,

Speaker 1 (00:07:40):

I don't mean it for the superficial reasons. I mean their actual, and not every song, some of their songs are metal with orchestra on top of it, but they have some tracks that are legitly written like orchestral pieces, like short orchestral pieces. That's like the only band I've actually really heard it with. Everything else I've heard kind of sounds sound tracky.

Speaker 2 (00:08:04):

Exactly.

Speaker 1 (00:08:05):

Not like legit orchestral.

Speaker 2 (00:08:07):

I know on their king album they had that two minute song with no metal in it whatsoever or it was like a vocal solo from Veronica with other stuff around it. That one I could definitely see. There is one group, I'm sure you're familiar, called Igor with three Rs.

Speaker 1 (00:08:24):

Oh, that shit is intense.

Speaker 2 (00:08:27):

Yeah, that's bonkers. But they also do some of the opera style vocals. I know they delve into about 10 different genres throughout a song, but

Speaker 1 (00:08:38):

They're so good.

Speaker 2 (00:08:39):

Yeah, there's definitely some stuff that's reminiscent of the classical style mixed in.

Speaker 1 (00:08:45):

There's a certain song by flesh God that I need to find on YouTube. I'm looking right now, I just need to recommend it. But while I'm looking for this, I want to kind of touch on something you just said that it seems like most people in metal who say that they've got a classical thing might've learned a Vivaldi exercise, and that's what I've always thought. It sounds to me like they got some transcription of what would be the most basic exercises for a violinist, learned it on guitar and then called that classical, but really it's stuff that an 11-year-old violinist would learn for a recital

Speaker 2 (00:09:24):

Or even better when they put on their resume that they're classically trained.

Speaker 1 (00:09:28):

Yeah, what does that even mean?

Speaker 2 (00:09:29):

Yeah, I have played classical music before, but I don't know if I would be truthful in saying that I'm qualified to be classically trained, but I've briefly immersed myself throughout a couple of years of the classical world, but I have not taken a counterpoint class or anything like that.

Speaker 1 (00:09:49):

When you switched over to guitar, did you just drop classical altogether?

Speaker 2 (00:09:54):

Pretty much cello. I really couldn't wait to get away from, I honestly just hated the feeling of the bow and the rosin nails on a chalkboard. That feeling, that's kind of just how it felt. It just gave me the shivers, the chills, whatever. The pika was fine. I enjoyed playing at Picado without the bow and then piano. I stopped taking lessons at that point and I definitely played a lot less, but I still thought even in my first band, I still wanted to throw in keyboard parts, so I still played the piano time to time, just all my chops are gone now. The theory of piano, I still know just as well as I did from when I started, so I think I did drop them, but I still kept everything about the piano in mind, just the theory of the piano. But as far as my technical skill, that all went away.

Speaker 1 (00:10:52):

Does it inform your writing at all?

Speaker 2 (00:10:54):

Absolutely. Everything midi I do. I actually type into the piano role on logic and as any of you logic uses know, it's just a big piano and you can see that even for drums. You look at the piano and yeah, I'll use piano things for writing.

Speaker 1 (00:11:14):

I mean you do orchestration in your writing

(00:11:17):

And the thing that I've noticed, it does have a soundtrack kind of feel, which I think is most appropriate for what you do on the metal side, but there's something different about the way you do it to where I can tell that it's got a real kind of feel to it or I don't know how to describe it, a legit kind of feel to it as opposed to just sometimes you hear these bands that incorporate orchestral elements and they're in the wrong key and it makes no sense. It's just like some dude plinking around with a spooky choir.

Speaker 2 (00:11:50):

Exactly.

Speaker 1 (00:11:51):

I don't hear that at all.

Speaker 2 (00:11:53):

Yeah, the key of the song is always very important to me. Every song I've written, I always ask myself, what key is this song going to be in and if there is a key change, how am I going to make that cohesive? I don't usually do key changes, but when I do, I try to make them kind of make sense and still make the song flow. Often it doesn't work out that way and I just keep the song in the same key. But yeah, I rarely will have a section where instruments are playing in different keys. I usually just don't like how that sounds. I know progressive bands might be able to pull it off, but that's not really what I go for. I try to,

Speaker 1 (00:12:32):

Yeah, but it's intentional when they do it. That's the thing. When they do it, it's not by mistake. By the way, that flesh God apocalypse song I'm talking about is elegy.

Speaker 2 (00:12:41):

Okay,

Speaker 1 (00:12:42):

That song is fucking sick. It's still though more towards the barque end of things. I just don't think metal lends itself to romantic era kind of stuff, but still it's pretty fucking legit.

Speaker 2 (00:12:56):

Absolutely. Yeah. The classical and metal fusion thing, I actually find that sometimes it can dilute metal. People will ask me why I don't ever use this specific type of cord, like some complex cord, and for what I do, I think going to outside the box in that sense can sort of take away from what I'm trying to do. It's hard to explain, but basically if something sounds too classical to me or even too jazzy that I just as a listener wouldn't enjoy listening it to as much as something a little more conventional, melodic, I don't want to say poppy because I don't consider this music pop, but just something that's more familiar to the average listener.

Speaker 1 (00:13:50):

I mean, there's a reason why triads work.

Speaker 2 (00:13:52):

Exactly.

Speaker 1 (00:13:53):

Muse is my favorite rock band, and they also have a legit orchestral influence and they don't really use complex chords either very much. They just are masters of triads and power cords and they just use it in such an effective way, and I think that that blends with heaviness way better. I kind of back what you're saying.

Speaker 2 (00:14:17):

Yeah, that's exactly what I mean. Definitely a lot of power chords going on, a lot of triads, but honestly, one of the things I look for most is an excuse to add extra semitones into my music.

Speaker 1 (00:14:31):

What do you mean?

Speaker 2 (00:14:32):

So every scale, every key that I write in will usually have between two and three semitones in it. If it's in a natural minor or one of those modes, it'll have two. And if it's in Harmonic, minor, frigid dominant, it'll have three semitone in it. And I find that if I want a part to sound heavy, adding in those semitone or half step as some people know it parts helps a lot. Obviously I play around to make sure it sounds good and you can't really never use whole tones, but I just find myself very often for any lead or melody will always contain a lot of those semitones because another word for it is the minor second, they just sound very dark and usually makes stuff sound cooler or heavier, at least to my ears.

Speaker 1 (00:15:27):

So do you think in terms of theory when you write

Speaker 2 (00:15:29):

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (00:15:31):

Sounds like it.

Speaker 2 (00:15:31):

Yeah, but mostly just to make sure I'm writing in a key and I definitely have not a stock chord progression, but there are chords that I gravitate towards that I know will always give the effect that I want to give, and then from there I branch off and try to make it not into the exact song I just wrote. I try to write new songs that I haven't done already, but there are definitely elements that I build off of continually.

Speaker 1 (00:16:04):

So is it kind of like the theory comes first or is it the inspiration for the idea and then the theory helps develop it in a cohesive way?

Speaker 2 (00:16:13):

Exactly. Yeah, more of the cohesive thing as far as theory, it's just telling me am I writing the song in key? Because a lot of people say that they never learned theory, but they still write awesome music and I think that that's perfectly fine and I think I'm doing it the same way, just saying a different way.

Speaker 1 (00:16:37):

You just have names. Exactly. Yeah, you just have names for it.

Speaker 2 (00:16:41):

People will use their ears to find the notes they want, and I sort of skip that step is I already know what note I want. I can find it just by thinking of the key and what interval of the key. I'm looking at what step and the result is the same. I just feel like knowing it can speed up the process. There's less guesswork, you just already know what you're going for.

Speaker 1 (00:17:06):

What's interesting about that. So there's something that comes from black metal, but something that's theoretically wrong but just sounds so cool, which actually some soundtrack composers do is for instance, just moving minor chords around. It's not really in any key really. That's not how keys work, just playing a minor chord and then I'll a minor third with a minor chord and then down a minor second with a minor chord and it's just all minor chords and it's wrong theoretically, but it just sounds so evil and cool. There's stuff like that that just your ear has to tell you that it's good and you need to trust your ear on it because if you do start checking that stuff, it is wrong.

Speaker 2 (00:17:47):

Yeah, I've done some stuff sort of like that before. I guess I would call it chromatic stuff. The song that's to nail of the mix, barren and breathless macrocosm. The opening riff is one of the only riffs sha intent has ever had. That's chromatic where it's just a descending chromatic fourth and fifths that make up the riff.

Speaker 1 (00:18:09):

It's a great riff.

Speaker 2 (00:18:09):

Yeah, I was very stoked on it and when I first made it, I just wanted to get it down. I liked the idea, but I thought this doesn't really fit in with what Shadow intent does. But eventually I just made a song out of it because I really liked the riff and it turned into a very successful song for us. So I'm glad I stuck with it and did something unconventional and it's hard to know how much of that I'll be doing in the future just because that did not come super naturally. Well, it came naturally to me. I actually heard it in my head when I was still working at a restaurant and I voice memoed it in my phone. I went outside a minute and then I went home and recorded it. That doesn't happen often, but yeah, usually I'll try to write in a specific key, but that riff is not in a specific key at all, and I wanted to make sure transitioning out of the riff to where the rest of the song is in a specific key that it sounded as Nashville as it could because like I said earlier, I don't really do key changes, so that mentally was a battle for me.

(00:19:16):

Just making sure that when the riff comes back again, it sounds cohesive with the rest of the song. But yeah, like you said, people can hold themselves back and get in little traps and I think the majority of successful musicians just say, just do what sounds good. Producers say that all the time for mixing. And yeah, I think your result matters more than if mentally you're afraid to be going out of key every once in a while. Adding in those chromatic notes can be fun and it's a good way to break away from doing the same thing over and over. That's part of what having continuing a music career instead of having a short-lived music career is continuing to create great things. But I can't say because there's this group I really like called The Chainsmokers, and they kind of just do the same thing over and over and still have a lot of success off it. So I guess you don't necessarily need to change up your formula too much

Speaker 1 (00:20:22):

If it works.

Speaker 2 (00:20:23):

Yeah, just make sure it sounds good.

Speaker 1 (00:20:27):

So it's interesting to me that that riff almost didn't happen because such a sick riff. It's awesome and I think it should serve as a lesson to anybody listening who goes through this problem that even a rif, that sick, that voice in your head tried to stop it from happening. You've got this super sick riff and then it's like, is that what we do? Is it really right for us? And all those kinds of weird questions that musicians ask themselves, but that would've been a real shame. So how do you know when the voice is right about that and how do you know when to tell it to shut the fuck up?

Speaker 2 (00:21:10):

Well, I guess a big part of my writing process, at least in the past few years is make sure you write, I actually got this from Will Putney. I agree with it a hundred percent is write more songs than you need for your record. Write twice as many or one and a half times as many and then weed out the weakest songs. And that song I carried on with it and there was a whole different version of the song with five different riffs that I just completely redid into the version it is now. And I just really wanted that riff to make it onto the album and have a good song. So I like to refer to John Feldman, hopefully you're all familiar.

Speaker 1 (00:21:52):

If you're not familiar with John Feldman, what are you doing?

Speaker 2 (00:21:54):

What I've been told his process with the bands at the studio is, I hope I'm not incorrect, is the band shows up and he says, give me your best parts, your best riffs. And then he disappears with them and comes back and says, here's your song. And that says to me, the most important thing is those good parts. Get as many of those good parts as you can and flush it out into a well-structured song a little later. But even if I think having those good parts is definitely more important than having the best structured song, definitely. Why not have both? But I wouldn't obsess over having a homogenized album where every song is perfectly structured and say, how can I have all the best parts? If you think of really cool parts, but you don't use them because your song doesn't come out in a formulaic structure like you usually do, then you may be missing out on opportunities because I think there's many, many, many successful songs that didn't follow the most conventional structure but had parts that really resonated with people. I think The Beatles is a great example. They just,

Speaker 1 (00:23:09):

Oh yes,

Speaker 2 (00:23:11):

Especially maybe not so much in their earlier years, but as their career grew, they did a lot of experimentation and just thought of really cool parts that people remember and grew into the most legendary rock bands at least top five of all time. And they did that because, and they kept writing tons of songs. They released two albums a year or something crazy.

Speaker 1 (00:23:38):

Their whole career was a seven year span,

Speaker 2 (00:23:42):

Which is ridiculous.

Speaker 1 (00:23:44):

It is when you think about the level of output and how drastic their transformation was and then realized it was only seven or eight years, it's insanity.

Speaker 2 (00:23:55):

I don't know how they found Tam Natoya with all those albums they released.

Speaker 1 (00:23:58):

Well, they stopped touring after a while. They only toured at the beginning from what I read in Paul McCartney's autobiography. They felt like it was making them worse to tour because back then there was no good monitoring. They couldn't hear themselves on stage. The crowd was so fucking loud, they were getting worse and they felt like it was getting in the way. So at one point they just stopped touring.

Speaker 2 (00:24:26):

I think that's still true to this day, even with the monitoring that if you spend more time touring than writing good songs that may have a bad net effect on your career. Obviously touring is good for promotional and it is arguably the best way to make money in music. But if you don't have the great songs and the great albums to back it up, then I think in the long term it's better for some people to take time off from touring and just working on their music more.

Speaker 1 (00:24:56):

Well, I mean, look at some of the sickest metal bands of the past 20 years, or most successful say like a Shuga or OPEC or those bands that are just institutions at this point. When they tour they tour, they definitely go for it. But then there are long vast periods of no touring where they really do work on their stuff. Ms. Suga, it's even more drastic. It could be five years sometimes. I don't think that that would work for everybody, though. You've got to be in a very unique position to wait that long. But I completely agree with you. It's actually, I think that part of the sophomore album Curse that Bands experience is because they tour too much and then don't spend enough time crafting the next record contrary to what people may realize, it's fucking hard to do anything else when you're on tour. You could can always do stuff, but especially something like writing in a seriously creative focused way, it doesn't really fit with touring.

Speaker 2 (00:26:05):

Yeah, I definitely tried and I thought about it. I brow my whole setup with me on tour.

Speaker 1 (00:26:11):

Same here.

Speaker 2 (00:26:12):

And I just never came up with a good riff that I ended up using on an album. I tried, maybe I could have tried harder.

Speaker 1 (00:26:22):

I said that to myself too, but man, it's just not a good environment for writing.

Speaker 2 (00:26:27):

It's not, maybe if I was at Buster Bandwagon level, I at least would have more of a workstation, but lugging in your setup into a green room where everyone's trying to relax, someone invites you to get food or there's always something you can do. So I think I've pretty much given up on that and just try to focus on the touring and enjoy it. I wish I could write on tour, that would be amazing, but I think my brain just wasn't wired for that. And having my studio environment helps a lot more to get the stuff that I actually use. And I have written riffs and parts of songs on tour and none of them have gotten used because I come home and I try to build off them and they're just not as good as the things I start from scratch at home. So that's just how I do it. All my writing is done at home.

Speaker 1 (00:27:23):

I mean, I imagine that also on tour, I mean you're doing the business stuff too, so isn't your mind kind of on that a whole lot?

Speaker 2 (00:27:35):

Yeah, definitely. The last shower intent headline tour, I did not have much time to myself because I was also just trying to network with all the bands, making sure everyone was happy. And we had a pretty extensive soundcheck set up just because it was our first tour bringing lights with us and hanging up a big backdrop and there was just a lot of stuff to do to get the stage the way we wanted it, and so it required a ton of attention. And then

Speaker 1 (00:28:06):

Are you stage managing?

Speaker 2 (00:28:07):

I don't think anyone had a specific stage manager title. We all kind of split the duty. So our base player, Andrew, set up the light rig. Actually I set up the in-ears and a lot of the audio stuff in the backdrop. And our front of house tour manager, Mike Torres, anyone who's lucky enough to know him, did a lot of the audio stuff as well. I guess he would be the stage manager. He decided when stuff would be striked, like the lights needed to be pushed back for the support band stab room or whether there'd be two drum kits or not, stuff like that. So I would call him the stage manager in that case.

Speaker 1 (00:28:47):

Let's talk about shadow of intent for a little bit. I wanted to pick your brain about this. If people don't know now, you'll find out that the band is indie, which is super impressive. Every once in a while you hear about bands doing it without a label and all that, but it's really actually pretty rare. Maybe it's lot more common and rap I believe, but it's a whole different world. Rap is kind of a genre that values entrepreneurs, that's like a mark of pride, whereas metal not so much. It's not the coolest thing in the world, even though I do believe that most successful bands have at least one entrepreneurial dude in them not having a label severely limits your access to opportunities in the mental world. It's really, really hard. Yet you've pulled it off. So was it your strategy from the get-go to be indie, do you feel like it held you back at all?

Speaker 2 (00:29:51):

So as with most questions, the answer is yes and no. So at the beginning, by the time we released our first ep, I had already joined another band called Currents that I still play with today that Currents was everyone involved, the full time band, try to make it happen, get signed, get the manager everything, and so

Speaker 1 (00:30:15):

Do the thing.

Speaker 2 (00:30:16):

Exactly, do the thing. And so all my focus went towards that and it was just me and the vocalist for Shao Win 10. It was our internet side project with zero expectations, but I knew that I wanted to do it because the vocalists is basically my favorite vocalists. He, he's awesome. He checks all the boxes for me musically. And collaborating with him is incredible. So I'm very glad I get to do something with him. And Curtis eventually did get signed and we record our first album with Andrew Wade, but around that time, shadow of intent had released an album and it was getting some attention on the internet enough to make it worth opening up a merch store, printing physical CDs, stuff like that. Because I was against that at first. I was like, no one cares about Symphonic demo Bo Gear 2008 Death Core with cheesy synths and whatever.

Speaker 1 (00:31:22):

I guess you're wrong about that.

Speaker 2 (00:31:23):

Yeah, people actually did like it. A lot of it was thanks to our vocalists, just networking and Facebook groups. He just was kind to, everyone supported other people's groups and would always share our music. And that's how our following began I think was just

Speaker 1 (00:31:44):

How did he do that without pissing people off? Because man, people sharing their music with you when it's not invited is one of the most annoying behaviors that I know this happens to you, but there's some people who hit me up literally every single day a few times a day now going on years sending me their music. And I don't want to sound like an asshole, but it's overwhelming and it's also not the way to start a relationship with somebody.

Speaker 2 (00:32:15):

Not at all.

Speaker 1 (00:32:16):

Yeah, it's like me. It's like exactly. So disrespectful.

Speaker 2 (00:32:21):

It can't be me, me. So number one rule is don't just direct message people at people like my band. That is absolutely the wrong way and that is not something we've ever condoned. Networking is you, let's talk about you and always validate the other and make them feel good about it. And then they're more willing to support your music. So he would post in groups, but he would also comment on other people's stuff saying This is really good. He would post other people's stuff on his own profile and say, I'm not afraid of promoting other people. I like what you're doing. It's awesome that you like what I'm doing too. But we're not going around messaging people like my page share my thing. That's not something we ever did. But it's about building a network, a community of people that like music. And that was a small start, but what really, there's a bunch of small things we can put together, but he would make vocal videos and those would get lots of shares. There's one that has over a million views like Facebook views.

Speaker 1 (00:33:33):

That's a lot for Facebook.

Speaker 2 (00:33:35):

Yeah, it's just like a 22nd video. But we got thousands of Facebook likes just off that, just looking at the analytics and the timing was because of that video. And there's a few videos that we ended up posting, but that was helpful. But the networking and just that stuff is important, but the number one thing is always word of mouth so you can message or post all the people you want, but nothing is more powerful than someone who's not in the band enjoying it and then showing it to their friends and their friends, showing their friends. And I think that's how I always found music is

Speaker 1 (00:34:19):

Same

Speaker 2 (00:34:19):

Here. Friends show me bands they, and I don't think I found many bands by a label. I don't think a label has made me aware of bands that often. I saw an Ria CD in Hot topic, maybe I found them that way, but I think a friend actually told me about them before I saw their

Speaker 1 (00:34:44):

Yeah, I was going to say you had probably heard about them.

Speaker 2 (00:34:47):

Yeah, I don't think I needed their CD distributed to a CD store to find out who they were. There was one band I will say I found Betraying the Martyrs. I went to Sumerian Wrecker's website just to see who else was on the label. And I'm like, oh, I've heard of all these bands, but I've never heard of betraying the Martyrs. So that's how I found that band.

Speaker 1 (00:35:06):

But who does that besides somebody who's like

Speaker 2 (00:35:08):

Exactly,

Speaker 1 (00:35:09):

Yeah, this is like you who's actively trying to build a career. Who else goes to a label website to check out their roster?

Speaker 2 (00:35:18):

Exactly. So foundationally, I don't think I found most bands because of a label. I think I found them because word of mouth and just thinking with that mindset is what value is the label providing? And I think most people would agree the two biggest values are funding and marketing. So the first question is do we need the funding? And because of word of mouth and the support we received and being able to record stuff on our own, our first album I recorded on my own shout out to Randy Pascarella back when he was very affordable. He mixed our album for 1250 I think,

Speaker 1 (00:36:01):

Damn son that is very affordable.

Speaker 2 (00:36:04):

That was 10 tracks and super cool of him. And he's doing this full time now, very successful. But that helped. So I just had to record the tracks and we sent it to him and we had an album and then it's like 50 bucks to upload on a cd, baby, 50 bucks for cheap album artwork, stuff like that. All in all, at the beginning of our career, we invested no more than $2,000 into the career. And then from that, we haven't had any more out of pocket expenses. Everything has been paid for from that point by the support of the fans. So the initial investment was important because we didn't want to put something out that sounds like shit. It has to be good if you want people to like it. And so definitely invest in it to some degree, but now I don't think I would just invest a thousand dollars into it now, money more, I believe in giving back to the fans. If a lot of people are supporting it, then try to keep making it better. So the budget for the videos and the recordings and mixing whatever is always increasing. But the other value of the label is the marketing. And that's the real trick is the label can put you in stores, they can suggest you for tours, they can just get you on playlists a little more easily. Take advantage of their subscribers.

Speaker 1 (00:37:32):

Yeah, it's access. That's the access I was talking about.

Speaker 2 (00:37:35):

Yeah, the press, there's a lot of stuff they do. And the first label offers we received were from smaller labels. I'm sure everyone can name a few small labels, I guess I believe, I don't know how to describe it, but your perception is by the company you keep. So at least me personally, if I see a band on a really small label, I might not take that band as seriously as a band. I see on a huge label getting major opportunities.

Speaker 1 (00:38:04):

But then again, you're not signed at all, which is, like I said, it's pretty impressive. But if it's by the company you keep, don't you think that an unsigned band might look smaller to the uninitiated than a band on a tiny label?

Speaker 2 (00:38:20):

That's possible. I guess I never looked at that way. I've seen science as smaller labels as kind of settling and selling yourself short.

Speaker 1 (00:38:28):

Same here. By the way,

Speaker 2 (00:38:30):

The financial thing, I am an economics major. I graduated in 2016 from University of Connecticut with economics. So that's kind of just how I look at everything is what kind of value would this provide for me? And this is where currents really played a big role in this is Currents got signed to a label and any band on their first record deal, you'll know you have a lot of money to recoup, so you're not really making a lot of money. And when you're on your first tours, current's, first tours with Ms. May I, and upon a burning body, we're getting a hundred bucks a night. That's enough for gas and not enough to pay ourselves. We're not really making money, but Shadow Tens not giving money to anybody at this point. We're not playing any shows, we're just releasing music. We have a merged stored up, music stored up and people are supporting.

(00:39:23):

And I'm like, alright, well this is making money and if we sign to a label that could go away and I won't name drop them. But there was basically one label we knew that we wanted to be on. The only label that we would truly feel like we fit in finally sent us an offer. And it was a very fair, nice offer. But at that point it just became a very financially stable thing and said if we signed to a label, we could get bigger, we could get more opportunities, but the financial stability can go away. And the other thing is we just kept growing. If we had stopped growing, we'd definitely be more open to it. But I think it was important to know your own worth and not sell yourself short. And even if some bands said, oh, it's just an investment for the future, and I think that there's a lot of truth to that sign two label is an investment in the future.

(00:40:23):

They could open the doors and grow you into a bigger business. That's a hundred percent true. And maybe it's not true that we'll never ever sign to a label. Maybe we will hit a plateau, but that has not happened yet. All our metrics are continuing to grow with each album. And if we hit a point where they're not growing anymore, then I am more open to that kind of discussion. But as long as we're continuing to get the opportunities, anyone who falls the band knows. We had a really good headlining tour and we're about to do a tour next year with Asley Dying. That's hitting one to 2000 cab venues, which is the biggest tour I've ever done personally. So as long as that stuff is happening, I just ask what would a label provide that we're not already getting? And the playlists are very important. Spotify playlists, I think a label will help us get on them for longer periods of time, but we're already getting on all the playlists that I would want to get on. There's one called Kickass Metal that has a million followers that Baird and Breathless was on. There's new metal tracks, which is at like 400,000 followers that we've had a few tracks on. So everything that I would want from a label, I feel like we're already getting. So that is ultimately why there's no label involved at this time.

Speaker 1 (00:41:57):

The thing that I've always thought is you have to ask yourself and be very honest about what it is that they can do that you can't do. And that goes for publicists, managers, anything. And I think that what trips people up a lot is their egos in that they want the validation of being able to say that they're signed. They want the validation of being able to say that they've got some cool manager or something like that. They might not admit that same reason that a lot of bands get into buses before they're ready to really afford it. If they just stayed in a van, they could actually come home with money, but they want that big dick energy basically.

Speaker 2 (00:42:39):

Exactly. And that goes back to that label, basically our dream label. All the bands that inspired us are on this label and we said we would literally only be doing this to look cool. That's the only reason why we would do it.

Speaker 1 (00:42:55):

Dude, that is such a horrible trade. If you think about it, achieving financial stability in a band is close to impossible in the first place. So to trade something that's close to impossible to achieve that you did achieve for basically an ego hand job, that's a major mistake in my opinion.

Speaker 2 (00:43:20):

And that's what it came down to. I think a label could make us bigger, especially that label, but why are you giving up to get it? Because I talked to a lot of bands and they all have side hustles that they might not enjoy like working at a restaurant, which I myself did. But being able to do music full time I think is a very special thing. And to risk giving that up isn't worth it to me just for, as you say, the ego hand job or just the risk of maybe getting bigger from the label. But I think at the same time, some bands sign a labels, what they do with the label doesn't work out and the label stops pushing them, but continues taking the royalty rate so the band no longer has control of their career. And when they put out albums and are at the mercy of when the label says it's okay to put out the album, and that can set back financially too as if they've completed an album, invest a lot into an album and then are just waiting around a year not able to tour or release it.

Speaker 1 (00:44:26):

That happened in my band. So we've been on Roadrunner and Century Media and in between our first and second album, after our first album, we were picking up a ton of momentum. We had done Oz Fest, Europe, twice, Japan, all kinds of cool tours. We did one US tour, which out for a cowboy and Acacia strain when J for a Cowboy was huge at the very beginning we had all this momentum and we right away went and made a record that everybody thinks is our best record. However, label shit caused it to take a year and two months to be put out in between when we made it and that in those year and two months, we didn't tour because the booking agent didn't want to do it. That killed our momentum basically. I have lived it. That is a very real thing.

Speaker 2 (00:45:15):

Yeah, I have this book, I think it's called What They Don't Tell You about the Music Industry. It was written by this guy that worked at a major label for many years, and one thing he says is Momentum is a very real thing. So how I interpret that is that if you make people wait and you don't do anything, they forget you. But conversely, if you take advantage of your position and continue to build upon it, then there's an exponential effect. You grow faster than you would've if you had just done the same thing spaced out. So that goes back to Coronaviruses. This is killing every band's momentum. My friends have this band Fit F King, I think, man, the listeners are familiar. They're about to do by far their most successful headliner to date. A lot of the dates had over a thousand tickets sold back when I toured with 'em last time, the shows were doing like 400, 500 tickets.

(00:46:15):

So they're doing exponential rate, but now all those shows are canceled. They can't take advantage of it. Dance, Gavin Dance, another huge band. They're about to do their biggest tour ever. I don't know those guys personally, but I know the shows they had were going to be enormous. And even just Shadow Intent, for example, as they Dying was going to be in a week. We were going to start that in a week from today. Nope. We are going to do European festivals like Summer Breeze and Brutal Assault and Rock Stat, which are all bigger shows than I've ever played in my life. And then we had another tour lined up for November. Hopefully it'll still happen, but basically similar size to the Asle dying tour. But if that gets pushed back, it might be more like summer. But the thing is we wanted to headline again come March, but now that's when Asle D is going to be, and we wanted that headlining tour to be kind of like Armament Builder and just building our own value as a headliner. So that happened to a lot of bands and it's definitely, I don't think I phrased it this way, but everyone needs to remember. It's not about them. Everyone's being affected. So I'm not complaining this is happening to everyone, so a lot of people worse than it's happening to me, but it's definitely a very unfortunate thing because a lot of bands have been building this momentum and now this is killing the momentum.

Speaker 1 (00:47:49):

The thing though, and I think I'm an optimist slash realist, but in my opinion, the saving grace here is something you just said, which is that it's happening to everybody. So it's not like there's some bands that are continuing to do stuff and therefore take all the attention. It's happening to everybody at the same time, which means that it's kind of an even playing field. Now I'm sure that there's going to be some bands who won't keep their momentum, in my opinion. That's because their momentum couldn't have been that strong. There's like a period where it hits critical mass kind of to where it starts growing itself and you still have to push, but it kind of starts to take on a life of its own. I think bands, and it's hard to say what that point is, but I think that bands who have gotten to that point will be fine. I think that bands who have momentum but have not got into that critical mass point, they're the ones that are going to have trouble. So for instance, I'm positive I would put money on it that dance Gavin dance is going to be perfectly okay. For instance.

Speaker 2 (00:48:55):

Yeah, they're just on a very safe level. I don't think their entire fan base is going to disappear by any means.

Speaker 1 (00:49:03):

No way.

Speaker 2 (00:49:03):

But maybe someone not quite at their level like us might be affected more because one thing you have to be careful of is the word hype. And I'm still trying to understand exactly what the word means, but you have to separate what's temporary, what people are interested in at the moment and what is going to last.

Speaker 1 (00:49:30):

That's what I meant by the critical mass thing is when it starts growing on its own outside of the artificial hype.

Speaker 2 (00:49:39):

So that's one thing I'm trying to nail down with this bench. Shallow intent is just, I think the word death core is kind of a hype word and metal, it's sort of like an eternal word. And I think there's not really a Death Corps band that has reached, I guess monumental heights, but it's always like the metal bands like Your Lamb of God, OPEC Goji or whatever that have transcended what's possible. But Death Corps seems to be doing really well right now, and all of us are just making sure that we're not part of a trend. We're part of something that's going to last.

Speaker 1 (00:50:24):

I will say this man, and I'm sure you've heard this, and I'm not just trying to make you feel better, but I have heard that as far as Death Corps goes, the word on the street is that you guys are like the torch bearers for the new generation, basically.

Speaker 2 (00:50:40):

It's very kind of whoever said that,

Speaker 1 (00:50:42):

I mean, that's what people say. So I guess nobody knows what the future holds, and I know what you mean about what the word death Corps means versus what the word metal means. That's very astute observation. But I guess if you're going to be in any position being considered, that would be probably the most advantageous position to be in outside of being one of the classics. Like suicide silence or something,

Speaker 2 (00:51:08):

Right? Yeah, suicide Silence was definitely in an unfortunate position with the vocalist change. I think a lot of people Miss Mitch a lot. I am a big also parish fan, such as Awaken the Dreamers. I think Eddie's performance on that was great. Chris do guitar playing on that was great. I'd really like to see that band come back again.

Speaker 1 (00:51:31):

I think they did the best thing they could have possibly done given the situation. I've only really seen that one or two other times. Allison Chains did it too. I don't know if you're a fan of theirs, but

Speaker 2 (00:51:43):

I'm not super familiar. Do they have the Them Bones song? Is that them?

Speaker 1 (00:51:48):

Yes. Yes, that's them. Okay. But their original vocalist died.

Speaker 2 (00:51:53):

I don't think I knew that. I should have known that. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Rock fans everywhere.

Speaker 1 (00:51:59):

Okay, so I'll tell you the story. He died of a heroin overdose in like 2000 or something like that. And he had a super, super unique and memorable and just iconic voice, the kind of voice that you can't really recreate it. And they disappeared obviously for eight years. They came back with a new singer who basically, I mean, he doesn't sound identical, but he's really good. And it doesn't seem like an imposter because sometimes when you get a vocalist to replace a vocalist who died or something, it kind of like there's an imposter thing going on. It doesn't have that vibe at all. The music they make with him sounds like them. He's got the right qualities for it, and it just worked. It's a rare, rare thing to pull that off.

Speaker 2 (00:52:49):

Yeah, I know. Dance, Kevin and dance, definitely none of the vocalists sound alike, but they're doing better than ever with a new vocalist that sounded nothing like Johnny Craig.

Speaker 1 (00:52:59):

Yeah, that's a mind blowing example too.

Speaker 2 (00:53:01):

The imposter thing you mentioned though, makes me think of Static X, if you're familiar. Oh

Speaker 1 (00:53:06):

God, man,

Speaker 2 (00:53:08):

They've been performing with a new vocalist, but in every post I see, he makes it very clear that he's not trying to replace Wayne and he's never going to be Wayne, and the future of the band is unclear, but he wants to do justice to what Wayne is doing. And I haven't really watched any videos or listened if there's any new recordings, but I do remember seeing that he's deliberately telling fans that he does not want to be viewed as an imposter and he just wants to do justice to the band however he can. So I don't know a lot about that, but that just made me think of that.

Speaker 1 (00:53:44):

Well, that is a great example. Wayne is someone that also would be impossible to actually replace.

Speaker 2 (00:53:51):

Yeah, absolutely. I think AC CDC also made out. Okay. I know.

Speaker 1 (00:53:58):

Yes, I would agree with you on that one.

Speaker 2 (00:54:01):

There is this band, I don't know if it's the best example, but it's interesting, this band Skid Row, I think they're pretty big in the eighties, and their new vocalist was in Dragon Force of all bands. Skid Row now has Dragon Forces through the Fire and Flames, vocalists.

Speaker 1 (00:54:15):

Really? I had no idea

Speaker 2 (00:54:18):

For 10 years. I think he's been in the band a long time. And Dragon Force has four new albums with their new vocalist. I was curious recently. I was like,

Speaker 1 (00:54:28):

So you're talking about the dude that looks like Pirates of the Caribbean?

Speaker 2 (00:54:31):

I think so.

Speaker 1 (00:54:32):

Okay.

Speaker 2 (00:54:33):

Is his name if that's how

Speaker 1 (00:54:35):

You pronounce it?

Speaker 2 (00:54:36):

Yes, that guy. Okay. And I was like, huh, I wonder why he left Dragon Force. They're really good. And then, oh, that makes sense. Skid Row offer. I haven't listened to the band a lot, but I've definitely heard their name a lot around Motley Crue and Bon Jovi, the glam world. So I understand why he made that move because

Speaker 1 (00:54:55):

I would say that Skid Row was one level under those bands. They'd be the band that would direct support Guns N Roses or something.

Speaker 2 (00:55:04):

That's still not bad.

Speaker 1 (00:55:06):

No, not bad at all.

Speaker 2 (00:55:08):

I still like Dragon Force's new vocalist, but he definitely does sound pretty different from the other one. But I like him in a different way. I think his chorus are really cool, but the first vocalist ZP had a very epic booming voice, and now that's sort of gone, but they have really cool melodic chorus. Now,

Speaker 1 (00:55:32):

One thing that's interesting about that band, we toured with them in 2009. It was very interesting, such controversy surrounding them.

Speaker 2 (00:55:41):

Yeah, the fake guitar.

Speaker 1 (00:55:43):

Yeah. That was a big controversial thing, man. That was one of the best tours we ever did. They drew a lot of people and then it seemed like one month later he left the band and I was wondering what would happen to them. He is a really good front man for that kind of stuff, but it just seems like they've persevered and just kept going. I think it's interesting to me when that happens to a band, when the fans give them shit for it, it's like, what do you expect them to do? You think that because somebody died or somebody left or whatever, that everybody else just has to stop. That's crazy,

Speaker 2 (00:56:23):

Right? That's something I really want people to think about suicide sounds a great example is they lost someone very iconic, very influential that a lot of people look up to, and you have to look at all the other members of the band and say they've spent a good decade of their lives devoted to this, doing nothing but this, making this as good as it can be,

Speaker 1 (00:56:44):

Plus all the time before that

Speaker 2 (00:56:46):

Working up

(00:56:47):

To it. And a horrible tragedy happens to them that they have no control out of, and then they make the decision. Do we try to appease the fans that really love Mitch and just end it and set ourselves aside? Or do they say, we spent a lot of our whole lives building this into what it is. This is our livelihood. It's not fair that we have to throw it away because of something like this. And there's the argument, Mitch would've wanted them to continue, and maybe it's not the way everyone wanted them to continue, but it's their decision. They've worked extremely hard to get where they are. So I don't think it's ever afraid to tell someone that they should have broken up because of something like that.

Speaker 1 (00:57:40):

It's interesting to me. I wonder if this happens in other genres. I know Metal, right? So that's the genre I can comment on the most. I don't know if this happens in Pop, but I feel like there's a segment of metal fans that feel super entitled to tell the artists what they should or shouldn't do

(00:58:01):

With their careers. It's always kind of blowing my mind why they think they have a say. And let me just say though, I completely understand the concept of appreciating your fans and making them happy and all that, but I feel like there's a line that's got to be drawn. They don't get to decide what the artist makes and imagine if they did. That's the stuff that metal fans hate about Pop. They hate the idea of writing by committee or people selling out. That's like, you're not supposed to do that in metal. But then when fans expect the bands to do everything that they would've wanted them to do from a kick sound to a vocalist, change to a type of riff, wouldn't that be the same thing that they hate pop music for? Yeah. Hey everybody, if you're enjoying this podcast, then you should know that it's brought to you by URM Academy, URM Academy's mission is to create the next generation of audio professionals by giving them the inspiration and information to hone their craft and build a career doing what they love.

(00:59:06):

You've probably heard me talk about Nail the Mix before, and if you're a member, you already know how amazing it is. The beginning of the month, nail the mixed members. Get the raw multitracks to a new song by artists like Lama God Angels and Airwaves. Knock loose OPEC Shuga, bring me the Horizon. Go Jira, asking Alexandria Machine Head and Papa Roach among many, many others over 60 at this point. Then at the end of the month, the producer who mixed it comes on and does a live streaming walkthrough of exactly how they mix the song on the album and takes your questions live on air. And these are guys like TLA Will Putney, Jens Borin, Dan Lancaster, toy Mattson, Andrew Wade, and many, many more. You'll also get access to Mix Lab, which is our collection of dozens of bite-sized mixing tutorials that cover all the basics as well as Portfolio Builder, which is a library of pro quality multi-tracks cleared for use portfolio.

(01:00:04):

So your career will never again be held back by the quality of your source material. And for those of you who really want to step up their game, we have another membership tier called URM Enhance, which includes everything I already told you about and access to our massive library of fast tracks, which are deep, super detailed courses on intermediate and advanced topics like game staging, mastering low end and so forth. It's over 500 hours of content. And man, let me tell you, this stuff is just insanely detailed. Enhanced members also get access to one-on-ones, which are basically office hour sessions with us and Mix Rescue, which is where we open up one of your mixes and fix it up and talk you through exactly what we're doing at every step. So if any of that sounds interesting to you, if you're ready to level up your mixing skills in your audio career, head over to URM Academy to find out more. Let's talk about Christian Donaldson. That mix is fucking awesome.

Speaker 2 (01:01:01):

Yes. He completely blew away all of our expectations. Completely.

Speaker 1 (01:01:06):

Yeah, and I've been familiar with him for a while. He is one of those names that I've just heard about a lot. I guess I didn't realize how damn good he is until I checked that out. I was like, damn, this dude is actually really fucking good.

Speaker 2 (01:01:23):

So our decision making for who should mix the album went sort of like this Buster who he had on mix their second album,

Speaker 1 (01:01:31):

Who's also awesome.

Speaker 2 (01:01:32):

And I think it came out really well, but it works very well for the metal core death core stuff especially. But basically, one of the times I sent Buster and Buster's fantastic by the way, but the way he kind of mixes, I just thought it was funny, is we had all these drums, thumbs ready for currents, and then he's like, you can delete the close mics, just give me the overheads in the rooms. And that's what I would do too. That's how I mix as well. But I know that the drums are just not going to sound quite as real if you do it that way.

Speaker 1 (01:02:10):

And he's got a very particular artistic vision for his mix. It's like I consider him to be the most legit new schooler out there. He is. Like what happens when you take that new school of home studio, metal mixer types came up with samples and all that stuff? He's like the best version. He's like that. If not if, but he's like the actually incredible version of that.

Speaker 2 (01:02:39):

Exactly. If Shadow 10 was slower and used seven strings, stuff like that, we would definitely use him again. But we're trying to build an authentic metal sound, six strings, very fast riffs, not a ton of breakdowns. So we wanted someone well versed in metal. So then we say, okay, what about Colin Richardson? He's retired. That's a shame because Colin Richardson is amazing. Jens Borin was also at the very top of our list, and I think he would've potentially giving us the clearest mix, but his budget level is a bit higher. And again, his mixes are fantastic, but we do want something very modern and punchy and he has a bit more of the classic thing, which I did want.

Speaker 1 (01:03:30):

It's a little bit more like naturally classy kind of,

Speaker 2 (01:03:35):

Which is still very good. I wouldn't be disappointed with a mix from him whatsoever. So then it was between Christian and Jacob Hanson.

Speaker 1 (01:03:44):

Jacob's also incredible.

Speaker 2 (01:03:46):

And Jacob Hanson was actually just a scheduling conflict. We were pretty much all set to go with him, but he was in the middle of a lot of label work at the time and said he simply just didn't have the time. And we were already planning to record the drums with Christian Donaldson. He had already done it. So we're like, all right, this makes the most sense. Let's hear the test makes from Christian Donaldson. Anthony Barone also recorded another project there called Beneath the Massacre. He did drums for their new album and said he's already familiar working with Christian Donaldson. So okay. That kind of dynamic I think will ultimately improve our drum sound. So Christian Donaldson's in Canada, where in Connecticut, I did hit it. My friend Greg Thomas who played guitar from Misery Signals, he lives about 30 minutes from my Connecticut house and he didn't quite have enough time to do it, but he was at the top of the list and he didn't really work on death metal much.

(01:04:41):

He did more of hardcore stuff, misery signals, shy, those were his bands. That was his world. But he does get good drum takes. So I said, alright, I just want to make sure we only have to do this once we get the best possible real drums we can. So Christian Nason is going to do it. The reason I thought Christian Nason would do a good mix is because of his work with this band called Ingested there from the uk. Anyone that hasn't heard them, definitely check it out. It's one of my favorite death metal mixes. The album, the Architect of Extinction has a very punchy mix and I'm like, I wouldn't mind having something like that. And obviously beyond creation, our vocalists, I like them a lot, but our vocalist especially likes how Beyond Creation sounds. So yeah, our album sounds like that. Then I'd be perfectly happy.

(01:05:31):

So we got our first test mix back from him, and the drums were instantly perfect. I don't think we changed a single thing about the drum tones. They're perfect. I think we raised the kick slightly or something like that, but he nailed the drums instantly. And the only thing that we really had to go back and forth on were like the orchestra intricacies, making sure every little part, any producer's work, the orchestra is probably familiar with the band, wanting them louder. It's very hard to get them exactly right. And I'm the one writing those timestamp revisions saying I want it a certain way, but it's important to me because a lot of work went into them, so I want to make sure you can,

Speaker 1 (01:06:13):

You're that guy.

Speaker 2 (01:06:14):

Yeah, exactly. And the vocals. Vocals took a lot of revisions because we were very particular of how we wanted them. You have to kind of, what do you call it, high pass vocals. But if you are too aggressive with it, then a vocalist like the one we have might not sound as powerful, so they have to be EQ just right. And then my vocals also just were very difficult. He doesn't do a lot of singing, so maybe he was a little less familiar, but I wanted something kind of ambient but kind of aggressive and that all had to be dialed in. But ultimately we're definitely using him again, we're so stoked with how it came out. I can't imagine someone else mixing the album after that. I think everything we ever wanted, basically the way I put it is we're stupid for ever using anyone before you. That's how I put it.

Speaker 1 (01:07:10):

That's quite the compliment. I want to talk about your perspective as an artist. We have a lot of producers on here, so we get their perspective on it. You were just talking about how you chose Christian, but on a deeper sense, what is it that makes you even consider a producer or a mixer in the first place? I'm asking because a lot of people who listen are they want to get better bands, they want to figure out how to crack that code. How do you discover a producer and what makes you think, yeah, I could work with this dude, and what research do you do? What do you find out?

Speaker 2 (01:07:47):

That's such a funny question that no one's asked me, but I'm so glad you asked. And again, not everyone's going to have the same preferences that I do. I think mixing is a taste thing, but I feel like a lot of people might want the same thing as I do. And number one, does it punch you in the face? Is it 3D? And what does that mean? It's hard to put into words, but it's kind of like every time there's a breakdown or an impact, stuff like that, can you feel it? Do you feel the change in the mix or does it fall flat? And that's something I look for when I go through a portfolio is when something happens, is it punchy? Does it impact me or does it, does nothing happen? Do I think, oh, that would've been so much cooler if they had mixed it differently.

(01:08:39):

So that's one thing I look at, and if you listen to Christian's album, the Architect of Extinction by Ingested, you'll hear what I mean. It has that every time something drops out comes back in, or there's a symbol choke. A lot of it is in the kick drum I feel like, but also in your automation. But just making sure you're approaching those parts right way so that they're punching you in the face every time they happen. That's super important to me, and I think that grabs people's attention, grabs my attention, makes you want to replay it, makes you want to blast it on your nice speakers. Number two, I personally go for more of a clear polished thing. I don't know if I've watched too many Joister just videos or have too many joister just products or whatever it is, but for some reason that's just always been my approach. Can everything be as perfect and polished as it can be? But can it still sound heavy? Because that's something I thought about more.

Speaker 1 (01:09:38):

That's what Joey is the master of.

Speaker 2 (01:09:40):

Exactly. For instance, the high cut on your guitarist is that I was making my high cut down to seven K or eight K, something like that on my pre-production. I was like, yeah, I got rid of all that horrible fuzz that was clouding up. But now that I listen more, I'm like, well, if you get rid of all of that, then it just doesn't sound heavy anymore. So you really have to find a sweet spot. And Jeff Dunn, who maybe you've had on here,

Speaker 1 (01:10:09):

We have Jeff's great

Speaker 2 (01:10:10):

Told me, oh yeah man, I do 12 K. So I'm like, oh, okay. So now I do 12 k because Jeff is one of the best mixers I know. I wouldn't be dissatisfied with a mix from him either. He's right up there for me with Christian.

Speaker 1 (01:10:27):

He's a protege of Joey's, by the way.

Speaker 2 (01:10:29):

Jeff.

Speaker 1 (01:10:30):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (01:10:30):

I know he worked with Dave Otero as well.

Speaker 1 (01:10:32):

Jeff's worked with a lot of people, but his start came with Joey.

Speaker 2 (01:10:36):

Okay, that's awesome. Yeah know he had a lot of drum editing credits, but now he's just a beast mixer. Really cool to see his journey, even though I've only been a part of it for the past year. But anyway, another thing I look for is the clarity. And that's sort of a difficult thing to define is can you hear everything? And it's like, yeah, I guess even if you can hear everything, it doesn't mean that it sounds good or cohesive.

Speaker 1 (01:11:08):

Yeah, there's this thing that happens on metal mixes sometimes where you can everything, but I call it drums in space. It sounds like a bunch of different elements that are separated. You can't close your eyes and imagine a drummer beating the shit out of the drums. You can't imagine a band. It just sounds like separated elements. I hate that.

Speaker 2 (01:11:32):

And that's very hard for people to nail and conceptualize and understand. I think a lot of it comes down, this is super important. I should have had this with punches. Just getting your low end, right? If I am blasting a song on my car speakers and it doesn't make a bump, I guess people call it car test, then it's like I feel ripped off by the band. I feel like they did not deliver if the low end is not there, if the kick drum is not punching through and the bass isn't filling everything out.

Speaker 1 (01:12:04):

It's funny you say that. I used to call 'em the best metal mixes car test music.

Speaker 2 (01:12:09):

Yeah, exactly. And the funny thing is, is that if you listen to a Metallica black album and Sandman, one of the greatest albums doesn't do that at all. That's not what it does. The kick drum and the bass, I mean the Toms of the beginning are pretty boomy, but it doesn't really give the modern feel. So even though that's indisputably a great mix, it's not something that I would personally want to put out in 2020 for what I'm going for. And the fact even Masu opec, they don't really have that type of mix either. It's not really a punch. That's not really what they're going for. That's why I think not everyone's going to want the same thing that I want.

Speaker 1 (01:12:51):

Yeah. So it sounds to me like you want clarity, but power. So with opec, I think it's more clarity, vibe and class.

Speaker 2 (01:13:00):

Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 1 (01:13:01):

It sounds like your aesthetic is more like clarity sheen, but impact and power.

Speaker 2 (01:13:07):

Exactly. And I really like a lot of joys. I guess they're towards the end of his career, he did the IC Stars, new Demons. I think that has a lot of what I'm talking about. The power. Oh, about that. Life by Atilla had a very, very clear, very powerful. I feel. I can't prove this at all, I'm probably wrong, but I feel like that album created a big trend in base tone for people. I feel like that album made people want to hear a clunky high

Speaker 1 (01:13:37):

That and guilty pleasure too.

Speaker 2 (01:13:39):

Exactly. Even though no one will admit they like the band, I feel like those albums really made people say, oh, I like how you can hear the bass, the high end of the bass poking through everything.

Speaker 1 (01:13:52):

It's funny you're saying this because I was just talking to Joey and Joel yesterday night about the Atilla mixes and Joey was telling me that mixers still hit him up today to say that those mixes are part of their go-to references.

Speaker 2 (01:14:10):

I think everyone listening will think I'm insane for saying this, but I do genuinely think those atilla albums influenced a lot of people how to mix their bass tone because of how the high-end pokes through. And it kind of changed how people mix bass in that style. And just saying it out loud makes me sound insane is like who would want to sound like? But I swear, I think ever since hearing those albums, I started paying attention to the high-end and bass a lot more after that.

Speaker 1 (01:14:45):

Dude, it's like the Nickelback mixes. So many people hate on that band, but their mixes are game changers basically. Anybody who mixes knows that the Nickelback mixes are the top of the top of the top.

Speaker 2 (01:15:00):

Yeah, exactly. So I don't actually necessarily prefer my bass and my mixes like that. I don't hate it, but I think if it doesn't sound like that, I don't really care. I see the bass as just making sure the guitar sounds good

(01:15:17):

And I think there's a lot of schools of thought of what percent. I guess one thing I think of is I don't want the guitar to be too thin because there's those parts where the guitar is by itself and then with no bass or drums under it. And I don't want to hear just the complete high pass the shit thin guitar. Sometimes it's cool on volumes via, it's kind of like that, but it kind of works. But on a heavy album, if the guitar is on its own hostage by Chelsea Green is a great example. It sounds super thick. It sounds like it doesn't need the bass to sound heavy. It's like already sounds heavy. I guess you could automate parts like that to add the low end back end of the guitars or however you want to do it, but I don't think I ever want to feel like my guitar is weak and thin and sometimes it comes out sort of like that. Because I am not sure your thoughts on this, but is that is more what people are doing these days is they're trying to get more of the guitar power from the bass than they used to back in the day?

Speaker 1 (01:16:18):

It depends on the tuning, I think.

Speaker 2 (01:16:21):

Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:16:21):

The tuning plays a huge factor in that because when you have guitars that are tuned down to E, it kind of changes the rules of the game a little bit. Back in the day, low tuned guitars are drop C, that's not that low. So there's still room for a thunderous bass. So these days it's more about making a decision, making a strategic decision about what's going to inhabit that low end. It could be the guitar and sound massive. It could be the bass and it changes from mixer to mixer and genre to genre of heavy music. Whereas before it was more like, this is just how you do things because guitars down to this and they won't properly fill in the subs. Now they do. And so you have to make that decision.

Speaker 2 (01:17:17):

That's funny. You say drop E. So Currents actually does play in drop E. And every record I've done with currents, I've used mid bass.

Speaker 1 (01:17:25):

That's very common by the way,

Speaker 2 (01:17:26):

And I think it really fills it out better than real base could have. But for shadow of intent, the first two albums were mid bass but melancholy and I think every album after melancholy from now on, I'm going to keep using real base. I think once you're above drop A or so, you probably should use real bass just because you can and it's easy. Definitely drop C or above I would say. I think the higher tune you are, the more obvious midi bass can be.

Speaker 1 (01:17:56):

Oh yes, absolutely. Also, I mean the lower you go the harder it is to get a base to even sound like anything. I mean you can do it. I've done it. It becomes a serious technical challenge to just get it to sound like an instrument. And then it becomes also very difficult to just when tracking it or whatever to just differentiate what's going on. It becomes a lot harder to hear the actual note. So simple things that no producer should ever fuck up. Having the bass and the rhythm guitar a half step apart, that kind of stuff starts to become a more likely mistake just because it's so hard to hear it. And I know that some people are experts at hearing it, but that is some of the challenges, just getting it to stay in tune. So you'd have to tune the shit out of it, getting it to not just sound like flappy garbage. There's a lot of challenges to tracking a real base that low.

Speaker 2 (01:18:59):

Exactly. And so some people might call it laziness that I just don't want to deal with all that base and I just want a mini bass that I know is going to have the exact results I want without any of that.

Speaker 1 (01:19:10):

People who would call it laziness are assholes, fuck them.

Speaker 2 (01:19:13):

I don't actually own a base, I own that Fender jazz. They're four string and I don't actually use that on records. So for melancholy, I borrowed my friend, shout out to Kevin Zito. He has an Ernie Ball Stingray, very bright and clunky. Very cool. I use that based on melancholy. It's like a two or $3,000 bass, something stupid like that. And I just wanted to make sure I had an awesome sounding instrument for the bass. Since it's my first album, not using midi bass, I've used midi bass on every album up to that one. So I wanted to make sure it was awesome and it was pretty easy. I just got a four string pack or maybe it was five and I took out the high one. I forget because shadow of intent that half were in drop a sharp and the other half were in B, and the 10 minute instrumental was in C sharp standard, which is like drop B but without the Drop B. But the bass, I knocked out each song on a half hour to an hour, got everything edit did. It was very easy to get good results with that base. And I was actually pretty pleased with myself. I had never done real base before, so just to have done it like that for my first time and done it so quickly and gotten it edited so quickly was really cool. It does help that you don't have to double track and get exact doubles that match each other.

(01:20:44):

You just have a single and if it has a little extra string noise, you're like, oh, that's just personality. Don't worry about it.

Speaker 1 (01:20:51):

So you're saying that how the bass hits is a huge factor in choosing the mixer. What about the word of mouth aspect to the mixer? Do you talk to other bands and find out what kind of person?

Speaker 2 (01:21:02):

I don't do that, but yeah, as far as the experience, I guess price does matter. I don't have unlimited money. I do want someone with a reasonable price, but I think number one, this kind of combines everything anyways. The portfolio is even if they have an album I like, could they do that again? I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:21:24):

Dude, that's a very good question.

Speaker 2 (01:21:26):

Did they get lucky? That's a question I ask. It's like, yeah, your mix sounds great, but do you have anything else in your portfolio? Because I think anyone that chooses a mixture just because they have one album they like it's taking a risk.

Speaker 1 (01:21:40):

Yeah, because it could have been that the producer sent them something immaculate that they barely had to touch. That happens. There's also the inverse of that

Speaker 2 (01:21:52):

Where the band does a lot of legwork. They have their guitar tones already amped, they have drum samples already picked out.

Speaker 1 (01:22:00):

You can still fuck that up. But also the opposite of that is when you have a mixer that's really good and then they put out a shitter, you can't judge them by that either because maybe they were given something like a complete mess to salvage.

Speaker 2 (01:22:15):

That is a tricky thing. So I won't shout this guy out by name.

Speaker 1 (01:22:20):

Yeah, no names.

Speaker 2 (01:22:21):

I respect his work a lot. He's one of the biggest influences in my entire life. I look up to him a lot, but he has a lot of albums out that I really don't like the sound of it all and a lot of albums out that I love that I think are the best. And I'm not going to use him because I think that's a risk, especially because he's not particularly inexpensive either. I'd be investing a lot of money in a mix that I very well might not like because there's a lot of stuff in his track record that I don't like.

Speaker 1 (01:22:54):

I will say this though, it's important to understand, which would be kind of impossible to find out without talking to everybody behind every one of those projects. It's like what if those ones you don't like were when he had to salvage a total piece of shit? And then the ones you do, for instance are ones that he produced from the ground up

Speaker 2 (01:23:13):

Because I know that he produced them from the ground up too.

Speaker 1 (01:23:17):

Okay, alright, there you

Speaker 2 (01:23:18):

Go. He was not sensed them from somewhere else. The band was in the studio with him and it still did not come out.

Speaker 1 (01:23:25):

Alright, well then that is an accurate risk assessment.

Speaker 2 (01:23:28):

Right? And it's a shame because I really do genuinely like lots and lots of his mixes, but I would rather feel safe and I would say him and Christian are pretty on par for me, but Christian offered a better price. And I also believe that Christian, there's one thing you have to look out of is the producer trying to get you out the door, get your shit done. Does the project matter a lot to him? That's something you have to look out for. And some producers, it doesn't matter, they're just so good. Even if they don't care at all, it'll sound great because they're just that good. But this is more for tracking than for mixing I think. But there are those times where a producer doesn't care about the project, they'll just try to get you out the door and not give as much of their input as they could.

(01:24:23):

And some of that is just because the producer just doesn't vibe with the music and maybe they weren't the best fit. So they're like, I don't really know what I can contribute to this that I would do better than the artist is already doing for what they're trying to achieve. That happens to me every once in a while, a band will come in, I really don't understand what they're going for, so I don't have any input for them because anything I would do would maybe homogenize it and turn it into something that they're not really going for,

Speaker 1 (01:24:52):

Just not on the same page.

Speaker 2 (01:24:54):

So I'm like, all right, I'm just engineering this getting good takes. And sometimes bands don't even want the good takes. They want the imperfect takes. So I'm like, all right, well now I feel even less qualified for this job. I should, maybe someone else should have done it, which sucks to give up work. Brian Hood and Chris Graham will talk about this on their podcast is make sure if you accept the job that you're the right guy for the job. Because then if you put out something that you're not stoked on and the band's not stoked on that is negative points on your portfolio, the band will say, oh, don't use him. This came out like shit, if your credits come out online with your name on it and it doesn't sound great, people are like, oh, maybe we won't use him his later. Another thing is even if you put out good stuff back in the day, I think a history teacher would say, this is what have you done for me lately. And basically that means is it doesn't matter what you've done in the past that matters is the stuff you're putting out today still good and still sound like it as care? And I think some producers changed their approach over time. Maybe went changed analog, digital, whatever, started using new amps or drum samples or mastering chain or whatever,

Speaker 1 (01:26:13):

Get married, have kids don't care anymore. Exactly. It's a number of factors

Speaker 2 (01:26:17):

And the stuff just has a different flavor now and suddenly they might not be the right guy for the job anymore, but they would've been back in the day. And so that's stuff I look for, but the portfolio is definitely important and can you see that this producer is consistently putting out stuff that you like and similar conditions being like, did this producer record the stuff himself, amped midi drums, whatever. And I think if you di your guitars with new strings, good pickups and everything else is midi, then any modern producers should probably be able to make that sound good unless they genuinely don't work with midi drums and bass.

Speaker 1 (01:27:01):

There are those.

Speaker 2 (01:27:02):

Yes, there are. I had worked with one recently and I was like, oh, I probably should have researched that further. I guess just the way I work, I assume everyone uses midi drums and bass now. At least I assumed everyone that's newer and younger and I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:27:19):

Man, that's an interesting topic because I want to bring up something else, but let me just say this real quick. The midi drums and bass, it's a controversial topic. One of the things that URM that we value ourselves on is showing people what really makes a difference out there. What'll actually get you hired these days, what you're going to actually encounter. While I think that nothing sounds better than a sick drummer in a sick room with a sick producer with a sick set, perfectly tuned, that's the most ideal. Obviously. However, that's not what you're going to get a lot of the time. That's a dream situation. If you're a mixer working for rock and metal bands, you better be ready for programmed material at least 50% of the time. And if you don't know how to work with it, I'm not saying you have to love it, right?

(01:28:18):

Honestly, I feel like it's kind of weird to work with program drums compared to real drums, but you should be comfortable with it because you're going to encounter it and what you're going to turn down those bands, you're going to be turning down a whole lot of bands and I get it. If your artistic vision is not that at all, and like you said, you got a vibe with the project, if that's not you, fine should at least find out if it's you or not. I want to bring up something that you said earlier, this whole thing about the producer actually caring. I feel like that right there is a lesson about the entire music industry and everybody you work with because you could get a big time manager for instance, and if you're the smallest artist on the roster, they could have the most power out of anybody.

(01:29:09):

If you don't matter to them, you don't matter. You could be on a major label and if the staff doesn't care, it's not going to make a difference for you. You could be with the biggest producer ever and if it's just a money job to them and they have their intern do it, then you're not really working with that producer in the way that you had hoped. I think same with booking agents. I've had this happen. We had a really big booking agent, but we were not the band that he really cared about. He got us no good tours. We had someone before that who was smaller, he cared and he got us awesome tours. So I think that that is kind of something that you have to look at throughout your entire career. You got to be looking at everybody you work with in terms of two way street relationship, not again, not make choices with your ego. I want this manager because it's going to make us look good. I want this producer because all the cool bands go with that guy. That stuff doesn't matter. In the end, what matters is what everyone is going to actually bring to the table.

Speaker 2 (01:30:13):

Yeah, that's very true. A label 100% has the ability to take all the rights to your music. Sure, they invest a little money into it, but they can take it and then if a release doesn't go the way they want it, they're a hundred percent allowed to just

Speaker 1 (01:30:29):

Not do anything,

Speaker 2 (01:30:31):

Take your royalties and you would've netted more money if you just didn't use the label. But I understand it is a risk you have to take and a possible investment is, oh, we should at least try because maybe it will happen, so why wouldn't we at least try? And I totally understand the argument. Maybe I am, what do you call it, risk averse. I don't like those kinds of risks, especially if I see that I have a good amount of bargaining power already. Maybe some risks aren't worth it. I could be wrong that I've had recently a manager tell me that we should be on a label and we'd be way bigger if we were, and I'm like, I believe you.

Speaker 1 (01:31:17):

How does he know?

Speaker 2 (01:31:18):

Yeah, I mean he's pretty smart.

Speaker 1 (01:31:21):

Sure, but how does he know He might be smart, but he is not psychic.

Speaker 2 (01:31:24):

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:31:25):

That's like people who think they can predict the stock market or something. It's like you know that you can't actually predict the stock market. There's no tool out there. Lots of smart people have tried, but nobody actually knows. Maybe there's a few people that have a sixth sense for it, like Warren Buffet or something, but no one can actually predict that shit. Same way that you can't actually predict if a band's going to do well. Every a and r guy who has had a bunch of big hits has a multiple higher amount of failures that they thought were going to be big. And I can't tell you that producers, this has happened to me and a bunch of producers. I know too, you work with a band and they check off all the boxes, you're sure that it's going to hit and then it comes out and nobody fucking cares. And then you work with a band that you think is total shit. They're basically a glorified local band and then it hits the billboard top 20 and you couldn't have predicted it. I would go with your gut because he's probably just trying to get your business.

Speaker 2 (01:32:30):

I could be, but back to the caring of a producer. There's also the other inverse of that is they care a lot, but they're not necessarily that good. So one guy

(01:32:44):

That really wanted to mix our second album said he gave us a test mix and said, I'll change anything you want. We'll get everything exactly the way you want it, as many revisions as you want. And I'm like, I don't really want to do that. I want you to be awesome at your job. Get it awesome the first time and then if I want changes, we'll make that happen. But I want the first mix to be awesome, and also this guy just didn't have the portfolio, so it's like, I'm sorry, but I'm not going to give you that chance. It's very kind of you to take time out of your day to make a test mix. Never take that for granted. It's really cool that people do that, but if you don't have the portfolio, don't expect to get the work. And that goes back to, well, how am I ever going to get work if I don't have the portfolio?

(01:33:40):

And it's like, how are you ever going to get signed if you don't have fans? How are you going to get fans if you're not signed? That type of thing. And it's really just a building process is this is the first year in the studio world. I'm finally getting not massive clients, but at least label clients and that's really cool for me, but it took years and years of local bands and getting better, actually mixing and hopefully keep building the portfolio, get better and better mixes out and people will take notice. I don't know Joey's full story, but from what I understand, he started in the garage and his first band was Devil Wars Prada.

Speaker 1 (01:34:24):

I believe that's the case,

Speaker 2 (01:34:26):

Which is a sick first day and a half.

Speaker 1 (01:34:28):

That is such an anomaly though.

Speaker 2 (01:34:30):

Yeah, Joey had a very skyrocketed career from what I can tell

Speaker 1 (01:34:36):

Or Andrew with a day to remember. That kind of stuff doesn't happen very often. I always tell people that, especially URM students, they hear these stories with these people that come on the podcast like that or on nail the mix and it's like because those are the types of people we have. Sometimes people can get the wrong idea and start to that that's the norm. The people we have are 90% anomalies. Yeah, their stories are not how it normally goes down, but I mean obviously they're the ones we're going to have on, but there are plenty of people who didn't do it that way. There are plenty of people, more people who built careers little by little with the chicken and the egg thing that you just brought up. I do think that there's an answer to that. How do you get fans with a label? How do you get a label without fans? How do you get bands without portfolio? How do you get a portfolio without all that stuff? I think the answer to that is you do an inventory of any opportunity or skill or asset that you have, you do something with that now the best possible thing you can. So you just take what you have available to you

Speaker 2 (01:35:46):

Exactly,

Speaker 1 (01:35:47):

And you do the best possible thing and you use that to maybe move one foot closer to the end zone and then you do that long enough. Eventually those steps start to become more meaningful. But it all starts with taking one little thing, whatever it might be, and basically optimizing the fuck out of it. You just go from there.

Speaker 2 (01:36:15):

My start was just $10 an hour, I'll record your band. That's it no matter who you are. And it went, okay, Chris records bands now it's really cheap. We can at least get a recording, send it out to get mixed by someone and then that creates word of mouth. More people are aware that I record bands, so then that increases to more people coming in. Then I get more experience just doing it. I get better at it, and so getting better at it increases my value, what I can ask for the job and increases what the portfolio sounds like. I think everyone listening, I'm sure hopefully already knows this, but I think the portfolio is everything. I think you should never expect to get anything out of life if you don't have the portfolio. I at least don't expect to get paid for it. But honestly, at a higher level, don't expect people to even give you a chance.

Speaker 1 (01:37:14):

You're not even going to get considered if you don't.

Speaker 2 (01:37:17):

Right. If I email Lamb, if God and say, Hey, let me do a test mix, they'll be like, well, they probably just wouldn't even say anything, but they're like, sure. And then maybe they're like, sounds cool man. And then that'll be the end of it. It's like there's steps you have to go through and you have to understand that people, you can't just have the world handed to you. But one thing that I am reluctant to talk about on podcasts and interviews that I don't think I have yet, but the more I think about it, I think there is some truth to it is luck is a factor.

Speaker 1 (01:37:53):

Fuck yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:37:54):

I would love to say that everything I've done is because of my hard work and only because of that, but just thinking about how everything happened is just, I wish that was true, but there is luck involved. I was

Speaker 1 (01:38:08):

Absolutely

Speaker 2 (01:38:10):

Shower 10 as LA down tour. It's like the biggest tour I've ever got to do, but I randomly was when Ence was with Asle dying, I randomly talked to Josh for a few minutes, mentioned Shower 10, and then he randomly heard shower 10 on a playlist and remembered it and messaged me. Then I randomly went to Las Vegas at the URM summit and he was there and he talked about the tour and I was like, oh, that's cool then.

Speaker 1 (01:38:40):

So wait, so we helped you guys get that

Speaker 2 (01:38:42):

Maybe. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:38:43):

Fuck yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:38:44):

Who knows?

Speaker 1 (01:38:44):

At least one step, one brick in the wall I guess.

Speaker 2 (01:38:48):

Exactly. Yeah. I love Brian Hood's term, single point of failure. You've had Brian Hood on at some point, I assume.

Speaker 1 (01:38:58):

Yeah, a few times.

Speaker 2 (01:38:59):

A few times. Great. So if he's ever talked about that

Speaker 1 (01:39:03):

Smart guy.

Speaker 2 (01:39:04):

Yeah, I love his podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:39:06):

Did you see him at the summit? He was hanging out.

Speaker 2 (01:39:08):

Yeah, I met him. It was hard. Just the term Punisher, I felt

Speaker 1 (01:39:13):

You felt like a punisher.

Speaker 2 (01:39:14):

I just didn't know what to say. Just I listened to a hundred episodes of his podcast, then I finally see him in person. I just wanted to meet you. I didn't know what to say, but it was really cool just to meet him. I really think he's really smart and good at his job, but single point of failure is just everything can be perfect, but if there's one little link missing, then everything goes to shit. So an example, he used this just you have a great band and a good mixer, but if there's a huge buzz going through your interface or preamp the whole time, the recording is, it's completely unusable and all the steps were there, but one, there's that one little ingredient that was just wrong.

Speaker 1 (01:39:58):

The pickups were dead.

Speaker 2 (01:40:00):

Exactly. It's like, alright dude, a whole album of guitars, but there's no audio because the pickups were dead. Stuff like that. And the same as with a band is, if I remember correctly, I could be thinking of the wrong band, but I'm definitely thinking of the wrong band. So we'll just pretend. I think it was Jamie Josta, watched Amir live in Connecticut and then got them signed or something like that. It's probably not that, but something like that. He was there and he was watching, he was paying attention and he made something happen for them and maybe something would've happened for them anyway because they were a good band. But you never know. Sometimes people will talk about they need an agent, they need a label, they need a manager. What you need is someone that's interested in you that has a position to do something about it.

(01:40:49):

It doesn't matter if they're labeled a manager or an agent. If they have some pull and they're interested in you, that's what you need. It doesn't matter if it's specifically an agent or specifically a label or an agent. I think of those as the big three as a band's team and shadow intent. Perfect example is we never went with a manager or a label, but we were never afraid of getting an agent. So our first agent was this guy jj. He represented Oceano in Spite and some other bands and he was on the company with Dan Rosenblum who represented Car Effects and used to represent Black Tally murder and White Chapel

Speaker 1 (01:41:30):

TKO, right

Speaker 2 (01:41:31):

Company is now called 33 and West, but it used to be, oh, circle Talent. That's what it is. And so we didn't need a manager or a label for our first tour to be with CarX in Oceano or our second tour to be with black dah Murder, white Chapel Flesh. God. We just needed the agent to represent us and legitimize us and that is how we established ourselves as a touring band is like, we're not going to settle for our first tour. We want it to be really special with bands that we really look up to. So we didn't play shows for years and then we finally had enough internet hype, I guess is the word hype we'll say. He became interested in the band and thought we would bring value to those tours. So Black Valley Murder, white Chapel, our first full US tour ever, we were playing a thousand cap rooms every night, which is, I like to say because of just hard work and strategy, but I think luck is involved.

Speaker 1 (01:42:33):

The luck part is that you meet the right person when they're in the right frame of mind to give a shit, stuff like that. That one person who introduces you to that other person that you cross paths when the conditions are right. That's the stuff that you don't have any control over and it's super important. Why do you, not talking about luck, is it because you kind of make your own luck?

Speaker 2 (01:42:59):

Yeah, I feel like it discredits work I've done, but at the same time it's like you just can't deny it. But one thing I will say,

Speaker 1 (01:43:08):

It matters. Yeah, it really

Speaker 2 (01:43:09):

Does. One thing I will say though is I do believe, this is another term, I set yourself up for success, which means you're not necessarily winning yet, but you're doing all the steps to make yourself valuable and approachable. So you just have an image down, a sound down, whatever, instead of waiting. I hate hate when a band doesn't try, but they expect a manager or a label and it's like, why don't you focus on being as good as you can be first and then just do that and then maybe someday the right person will come along, but don't reverse the process. Don't expect them to do all the work for you. I think

Speaker 1 (01:43:58):

The thing with luck, you have to set yourself up to be in a position to make the best of it. So I don't think that the luck is what actually happens. The luck is like the connection or something, but then if you're not ready for that connection to do anything, what difference does it make me getting signed a roadrunner is totally luck, even though it's also a ton of hard work. The part of it that was luck is that there was a magazine in my region that was just a local, well regional magazine that I'd spend $500 a month advertising my band in it, which was a lot more than any of the other unsigned bands. So I got to know the staff, I kept placing ads for a year. Then they interviewed a producer. That producer was above our level and they introduced us because they liked me because of that by meeting that guy, that guy got us in touch with Roadrunner. So it's like one of these things where when placing the ads in that magazine and building that relationship and no way in knowing that that's how I was going to get to Roadrunner. So the luck is that those people from the magazine even met that other producer in the first place. Right. That's totally out of my control. And there's no telling that Roadrunner would've happened without that. Right?

Speaker 2 (01:45:19):

Right, exactly. I think, and that's networking. So URM Summit for example, I could have gone attended the classes and then just stayed in my hotel room the whole time and I think the classes were cool. I took some cool notes and learned some cool concepts, but ultimately it was a networking event and

Speaker 1 (01:45:41):

Yeah, that's what it's about.

Speaker 2 (01:45:42):

To go there and to not meet people is a disservice to yourself. It's a waste of your time. So I'm sorry to Dave Ero, but I did not make the second half of your guitar course because, well, basically I spent a lot of time with Jeff Dunn there. I had met Jeff once before that, but after that, to me, Jeff is just an incredibly talented mixer and I've learned a lot from him in the time I've known him. And we saw some of the bands he's had in Einstein Kills and Fit for a King were playing at Brooklyn Bowl, which was two blocks down from the hotel. So I had done a few tours with Fit for King, so I wanted, it's so weird that line up that way that Fit for King and Ice Son Kills, were playing two blocks away from the URM summit, so I was like, this is kind of a good networker opportunity too.

(01:46:33):

It was really cool. Jeff will hit me up every once in a while. I'll ask him about mixing every once in a while and it's just cool to make that connection. I think Jeff has made me way better at mixing and is just an awesome person to know and you really can't just meet people and expect to benefit off them. You should really, this is just like that book, how to When Friends Influence people, the one Brian Hood will talk about a lot is should never be about you on what you can get from someone. It should be not what can I do for you? But you can't just talk about yourself all the time. No one wants that around. So if you are going to network with people, learn about them, and if you just focus on what they can do for you, then don't expect anything. Just networking should be a lifelong long-term situation. Like you shouldn't expect to get a quick thing for a person here. Quick thing for a person here you should say, I will help you however you want and if you want to help me, that's fine, but if not, it's awesome to know you and be an acquaintance of yours.

Speaker 1 (01:47:40):

I call it open-ended networking. And I think it's the best way to do it to where all you're trying to do is build a relationship and the relationship's going to go where it's going to go. Maybe it'll equal a professional opportunity, maybe it just turns into a friend, maybe it goes nowhere, but people can sense when you're trying to dig something out of them. And that is, I think especially in the music industry because it's so relationship driven and there's so many punishers, especially people at pro levels are, they're very wary of that and it turns them off so fast. It's a quick way to kill anything. So yeah, obviously you're networking because you want good stuff to happen, but that's got to be a byproduct of the relationship that you're building.

Speaker 2 (01:48:29):

Exactly. This is awful. But I made a collage of this guy who's asked me for guest lists on five different occasions. I just, oh man,

Speaker 1 (01:48:37):

Please send it to me.

Speaker 2 (01:48:38):

I will. And I just made a little collage and yeah, you just can't, I don't know. I think I used to be like that though. I didn't realize you can't just look to benefit off people all the time. There's nothing wrong with trying to be in a position to help people and it costs so little to help people sometimes

Speaker 1 (01:49:01):

You can't make it about you. The thing though too is the danger there is when people try to be too helpful and you can tell that it's because they're hoping that you do something for them. So it's a thing where for real, when I meet people now I make a point of clearing my head of anything that could happen and I just try to meet them and see where the conversation goes and try to take a genuine interest in who they are. I feel like that has served me best. The best stuff that's ever happened to me career growth wise has been with relationships that are years old, always. It's never just someone you meet at Nam and then one month later this huge project is happening. It's like someone I meet at Nam and then I see them six months later at some place and then chat online sometimes and then three years go by and then for some reason there's something that you can do together and you know each other and so you've got a good rapport and they're going to take your email or answer your call, but you can't predict that shit ever.

Speaker 2 (01:50:11):

Exactly. Miami Dolphin who works,

Speaker 1 (01:50:13):

I love Miami.

Speaker 2 (01:50:14):

So actually before I continue, I've been meaning to ask someone this for years now. What is the difference between URM and nail the mix? I'm still trying to understand.

Speaker 1 (01:50:25):

Oh, now the mix is just a product of URM.

Speaker 2 (01:50:28):

Okay. That's all it is.

Speaker 1 (01:50:29):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (01:50:30):

I know it was obvious. I just wanted to make sure I was correct.

Speaker 1 (01:50:34):

Ur m's. The company, we have lots of products now. The mix is the product that we're most well known for.

Speaker 2 (01:50:41):

Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:50:41):

It's like our flagship, but that's all it is.

Speaker 2 (01:50:44):

Is Joey a URM owner with you or are you like

Speaker 1 (01:50:49):

Yes.

Speaker 2 (01:50:49):

Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:50:50):

He's one of my co-owners.

Speaker 2 (01:50:51):

Great. I should have known. I just needed to be sure. That's

Speaker 1 (01:50:55):

Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:50:56):

So Miami, I was in a band with, if anyone doesn't know, everyone needs to meet Miami Dolphin called the Words we used about six years ago.

Speaker 1 (01:51:05):

Wait, wait. So you know him from Connecticut?

Speaker 2 (01:51:07):

Yep.

Speaker 1 (01:51:07):

Oh wow. Miami is one of my favorite people, by the way.

Speaker 2 (01:51:11):

Yes.

Speaker 1 (01:51:12):

Just has to be said.

Speaker 2 (01:51:13):

Absolutely. We were only in a band together for about half a year in that time. He was a big influence on how I structured songs. Before him, I was just riff, riff, riff. Maybe I'll call this part chorus, whatever. But he pointed out a lot of big songs will have verses, bridges where you can freeform a little bit. A thing about whether you have two or three courses. And he just got me thinking about song structure a lot more. He's very good at singing. Anyone who has met him and hasn't heard him sing, he's one of my favorite singers and

Speaker 1 (01:51:49):

I didn't know that.

Speaker 2 (01:51:50):

You didn't know? Oh my goodness.

Speaker 1 (01:51:51):

No.

Speaker 2 (01:51:51):

You have to hear our ep. Then the Entitlement ep, by the words we use, he does all the clean singing and I'll play the guitars. He sounds kind of like Brennan Yuri and Ronnie Radke put together into an ultimate whatever you call it. I ultimately left the band and continued on with Ence and then from that point I was like, Miami is still the funniest person I know and an excellent musician. I don't want to lose touch with him. So I put an effort into maintain a friendship with him and I had no idea he was going to join URM work with you and Joey. That was like, I had no idea. I just liked Miami as a person and wanted to continue a friendship with him. And then suddenly he's with URM now, so he tells me, you should go to the summit and we'll hang out. I'm like, okay. And then he puts together some videos for the URM channel. There's that freaky Friday one and the tone forage one that I did because I just kept in touch with him the whole time. I know Miami, I never expected anything from him for him to give me anything. I just like Miami

Speaker 1 (01:53:06):

And it helped you get an As la dying tour.

Speaker 2 (01:53:09):

So it all puts together. So I think that should be why anyone does that anything is when you network with people, it can be exhausting to talk to someone you don't like. So that might be a waste of time too because maybe if there's not a vibe there. Well, so I won't say waste of time because one thing the book says is treat everyone like they're important. So you should never just shrug someone off even if you don't like them or whatever.

Speaker 1 (01:53:39):

I call hollywooding them. Don't Hollywood people,

Speaker 2 (01:53:42):

You should treat everyone like they're important. And I understand that it can be exhausting, but it really just doesn't do you a service to leave a bad taste in someone's mouth, even if you don't think it'll affect you one day. Especially with cancel culture now, just people trying to take people down all the time. It's like just be a good person earlier in life. I hear the phrase, nice guys finish last. I'm like, oh, I guess you don't need to be a good person to succeed. But that phrase really isn't true. It's nice guys, finish last short term, but win long term.

Speaker 1 (01:54:21):

Yeah, so I think that the term nice guy in some of those types of phrases, really what they mean is pushovers. So you can be a nice person but not be a pushover. I think pushovers finish last.

Speaker 2 (01:54:33):

Yeah, exactly. So you do have to know when to stand up for yourself and knowing your value and what you're worth and what's best for you, rather than saying yes to every first opportunity that comes your way with a pushover. I think in the music industry there are a lot of good people, but there are a lot of people that also will try to take advantage of you and you don't necessarily, I never necessarily is thinking, sniffing out, suspecting who's trying to take advantage of me. I just kept thinking what's best for me is a business partnership or relationship with this person best for me or not. And if it's not, I'm not going to do it. I don't think of it as this person's trying to take advantage of me. I mean maybe on some small level it crosses my mind. But ultimately what I think is, and this is business by the way, not relationship. You should, even if pursuing a business partnership isn't the best thing, like the label managers, whatever I've mentioned earlier, I don't want to enter a partnership with them yet, but I'm not going to be mean to them. Be disrespectful to them.

Speaker 1 (01:55:42):

You can be cool.

Speaker 2 (01:55:43):

Every label and manager that's reached out and tried to represent us, I respect them a lot and if I ever meet them, I'd love to chat and hang out, but that's not what I think is best for me at this exact time. So I'm not going to do it just because someone tells me to. I'm going to stand up for what I think is right.

Speaker 1 (01:56:06):

But just because you're not working with them, first of all, it doesn't mean you can't be friends. And second, it doesn't mean that there's nothing you could ever do with them. It could mean, for instance, that manager that you won't work with because you don't think it's right for you at that time, but you're friends with could have a band that he puts you on tour with just because he thinks that that would be the best thing for his band. Stuff like that happens. So question. We agree. Networking is huge. It's vital.

Speaker 2 (01:56:37):

Talent and networking I think are the biggest things. Where does punishing

Speaker 1 (01:56:41):

Come in? So say someone wants to network with you, what makes you feel like you're getting

Speaker 2 (01:56:46):

Punished right off the bat? As we mentioned earlier, someone messages me to check out their band. That's automatic punishment. This person has instantly made it all about them. And then there's the slight level above that where, hey, huge driver, intent fan. Would you mind checking out my band too? That's kind of better. They are trying to validate what I'm doing, but at the same time, it's instantly still about them.

Speaker 1 (01:57:14):

What would be the best way to approach you to where you'll actually take an interest in talking to the person and not get me the fuck out of your feeling?

Speaker 2 (01:57:26):

Yeah, it's hard because I, like many others do sometimes get a little social anxiety. Sometimes I do just like to be in my own environment, but

(01:57:40):

It is important to network. If you feel the same way with social anxiety, you can't let that hold you back. As Brian Hood says, he's full of the good quotes, figure it the fuck out, don't let anything hold you back. Sometimes you have to try harder to achieve the same things as other people who might not have to try as hard, but there's still necessary steps. So networking is important and not punishing people is important. So Tim Ferris actually brought this one up. I might be paraphrasing a little bit, but when he would go to a networking event, he doesn't focus on being around that person as long as possible. He's just like, let's exchange contact info. Maybe do something nice for them. If you want to initiate relationship with someone, this is tough for me because everyone, not everyone, but I've been accused of being cheap before.

(01:58:32):

I'm like, Ooh, I don't want to buy something for someone I don't know. But at the same time, it really doesn't cost you a lot and if you get in the habit of just doing a small gesture, something nice for someone, I guess the net will add up. Maybe you'll buy something for someone, you never see them again. You never talk to 'em again, but every once in a while one of those people is going to lead to something good for you and obviously don't think of it that way. Don't expect to get something good out of anything. All of the people I meet that I feel like I'm not like, Ooh, get away from me, are trying to do something nice for me and it's not right to just only be friends with people that do stuff for you. That's not why I have friends at all, but that's just sort of, I guess what grabs my attention like, wow, that was really nice of you.

(01:59:22):

I really want to repay the favor and the people that don't want to repay the favor might just not even be people you would want to be associated with anyway. I guess that's how I rationalize is you kind of sort out the good people from the bad people. So if you do something nice for everyone and then not everyone does it nice back. It was like this hurt for me to say before, but it really makes a lot of senses. That person is probably better off not being in your life anyway. You probably don't need someone in your life like that that won't reciprocate, so just let it go. Don't even worry about it.

Speaker 1 (01:59:56):

Man, that goes so deep too. That's not just business, that's dating, that's friends.

Speaker 2 (02:00:02):

Yep. Not everyone is going to like you no matter who you are, and that's not because of you. That's because of them. Separate your problem from their problem really.

Speaker 1 (02:00:12):

That's great advice.

Speaker 2 (02:00:13):

Thank you. Just be nice to people and don't listen to Nice guys. Finish last, it's pushovers finish last. Like Al said, being nice is a good thing. In my opinion.

Speaker 1 (02:00:24):

One thing that immediately makes me this tips the scale big time when I'm talking to someone in person especially is do I feel like they're respecting my time? So for instance, that's something like the summit or at NAM or some event where I have to talk to a thousand people or something, a hundred to a thousand people in the span of two days. A lot of people, I don't have that much time for every interaction and it is what it is. It's nothing about the other person. But if I feel like the person is not respecting that to me, it tells me they don't really actually give a shit about me. They see me as some sort of an object or some sort of a step that they can use in order to get to the next place. I always appreciate it when someone is respectful of my time and so with the punishing it's like I've got no problem talking to anybody, but let's be real here.

(02:01:28):

If I'm at NAM and we have a booth and there's people waiting to talk to me, don't try to talk to me for 45 minutes. It's going to put me in a really weird situation where I might have to find a way to get out of the conversation. That's what make me uncomfortable. I don't want to be mean. Why put me in that position? That's not going to help the relationship at all. And I feel like people who are respectful of that, I immediately take note of it and I try to do the same thing when I meet somebody who I know has a lot going on is to the Tim Ferris thing you said, try to keep it quick and respectful and then if they want to talk more, that's cool too. But I always assume that people I'm meeting have their own shit going on. I don't want to be a drag on them at all in any way, shape or form.

Speaker 2 (02:02:13):

I think the mindset to get into is I'm going to see this person again.

Speaker 1 (02:02:17):

Yes, exactly.

Speaker 2 (02:02:18):

If you're attached to someone 20 minutes and they're trying to do other stuff, you're going to leave a negative impression. But if you introduce yourself, say goodbye. You might not even ask for contact info yet, but you're going to see them again. The next time you see them, you're familiar to them, they might even be happy to see you. And then maybe contact invo can be exchanged because there's a sense of familiarity. And same thing with everything is just manage your expectations. It's not a big deal. You put a lot of pressure on yourself when you're like, I'm going to go to this concert, I'm going to meet the headliner. I'm going to tell him to take my band out on tour. That's like a horrible plan, not how you should ever go about it, but I guess staying on the radar

Speaker 1 (02:03:07):

Top of bind.

Speaker 2 (02:03:09):

I love the Billy Decker one. If anyone's not familiar. It's like when does a band pick someone and it's always the last person they think of.

Speaker 1 (02:03:17):

It's true.

Speaker 2 (02:03:18):

When you pick someone to be on a tour, it's like there's millions of bands out there, but only a few are in the conversation. It's because they did something to make you think of them. And so instead of spending all your time catching a big fish, just go to every pond, fish a little bit, and then maybe little ones will pop up here and there.

Speaker 1 (02:03:40):

That actually fits with something else that you said earlier about if you don't have a portfolio, why would X band even consider you? And to me that's kind of part of the same thing as being respectful of somebody's time. It's also the same thing as not trying to get the big fish. It's like, I'm not saying that don't try to make things happen, but what I am saying is time and place is super important and everything should be appropriate. If your goal is to eventually get to big fish and do big things, that's cool. You got to be patient. For instance, I talked about this on a punk rock, NBA podcast, but one of my biggest strategies for getting like a-listers on this podcast is to start with their assistants. If they all have a manager, start with the smallest person on that manager's roster and do something good for them, help get more exposure for one of their smaller producers.

(02:04:41):

Why should they put their Alister on my podcast if they don't know of us? If they've never met me or talked to me, I shouldn't ever assume that they know that our podcast would be good for them. And I don't take that for granted. So start with something realistic, like someone smaller on their roster who really could use the attention, make it really awesome for them, actually do give them the attention and then you can move to the person that's a little higher up the ladder and repeat, rinse, repeat. And then maybe three years later you'll get the alister on. Maybe you won't, but at the very least you helped some people's careers along that puts you in the conversation and in a positive way. That little by little thing has paid off tremendously for me,

Speaker 2 (02:05:37):

If I do get an interview or podcast requests in the email and message, I do some research on it and look through on what they've done and if it looks like they're not really taking it as seriously as they should or I don't know anyone on it or it's not giving me the right vibe, I'm probably less interested in pursuing that particular opportunity. It's something to keep in mind is you are asking, you were saying earlier about respecting people's time and just being conscious of stuff like that.

Speaker 1 (02:06:09):

It's a really big deal, man. I feel like everybody that I approach has shit that's going on that's really important to them. Obviously I know that's true. So I don't want to ever be in the way basically, but I want them to see, I want them to see their interaction with me as a positive thing. But you said patience. I have said that always about careers and networking, but I want people to understand that the patience required though, I think for what we're talking about is in terms of half decades and stuff or longer. It's not like be patient for three months. It's like be patient for several years. And I think that that's hard for people, especially early on when they have no idea if shit's going to work or not and they're so desperate for something to work out, it's hard for them to be patient.

Speaker 2 (02:07:04):

And I think earlier on I put a lot of pressure on myself and I was expecting things to happen instantly. The best use of your time is not spend time worried about how things could be better, but making them better. People underestimate the amount of control they have in their future and their destiny, especially me. Younger things need to happen to me. I just need to wait. But trauma intent is the perfect example is if we just never did anything ever, then nothing would happen. But we kept putting music out, we kept trying to write music and never had any expectations. We were never like, we need to play a show by the state. We need to release by this state. We need to do anything by any date. It is just do what we can when we can, as good as we can do it, and just don't put so much pressure on yourself.

(02:08:02):

And it was easier because I had another band that was more trying to do stuff by not having those expectations. It just made travel intense, so smooth and easy. I had no worry about when I could tell my friends I was on tour. That was a huge problem three years ago is I was waiting for so long to be being able to say I was signed and touring. I think Currents got signed a year before it was announced, and young me was just like, oh man, people need to know that I'm signed right now or they won't think I'm cool. They need to know I'm going on tour. They won't think I'm cool. And now three years later it's like none of that matters anymore. Now I'm not going to be on tour all year. Everyone's hurting and it's not about any one person that doesn't get to do what they're doing. Everyone should just try to make this quarantine time easier on everyone, just like, we're going to be okay. Don't get your parents sick.

Speaker 1 (02:08:59):

Yeah, I completely agree. Well, I think this is a good place to end the podcast. Speaking of time, I want to be respectful of your time too.

Speaker 2 (02:09:07):

You can have as much time as you want.

Speaker 1 (02:09:09):

Thank you.

Speaker 2 (02:09:09):

No problem.

Speaker 1 (02:09:11):

I appreciate that. It's been awesome talking to you. I know that it was kind of tricky to get scheduled and that was my fault, but I really do appreciate you coming on.

Speaker 2 (02:09:19):

Yeah, no problem.

Speaker 1 (02:09:19):

It's been awesome. I'm looking forward to hopefully hanging out when we get to make up the nail, the mix live stream sometime this year hopefully.

Speaker 2 (02:09:31):

Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (02:09:31):

Okay, then another URM podcast episode in the bag. Please remember to share our episodes with your friends as well as post them to your Facebook, Instagram, or any social media you use. Please tag me at a ar Levi URM audio, and of course, please tag my guests as well. Till next time, happy mixing. You've been listening to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast. To ask us questions, make suggestions and interact, visit URM Academy and press the podcast link today.