JOHNNY K: Producing Disturbed, The Psychology of Bands, and Why He Avoids the Grid

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast, and now your host, Eyal Levi. Welcome to the URM podcast. Thank you so much for being here. It's crazy to think that we're now on our fifth year, but it's true, and it's only because of you, the listeners, and if you'd like to see us stick around for another five years, there are a few simple things that you can do that would really, really help us out, and I would be endlessly appreciative. Number one, share our episodes with your friends. If you get something out of these episodes, I'm sure they will too, so please share us with your friends. Number two, post our episodes on your Facebook and Instagram and tag me and our guests too. My Instagram is at al Levi urm audio, and let me just let you know that we love seeing ourselves tagged in these posts.

(00:00:57):

Who knows, we might even respond. And number three, leave us reviews and five stars please anywhere you can. We especially love iTunes reviews. Once again, I want to thank you all for the years and years of loyalty. I just want you to know that we will never, ever charge you for this podcast, and I will always work as hard as possible to improve the episodes in every single way possible. All I ask in return is a share post and a tag. Now, let's get on with it. Hello everybody. It's going to be a quick intro today. This is a long episode and I just want to get right to it. My guest today is the one and only Johnny K, who's an engineer, producer, mixer, musician, and songwriter who has tons of platinum records, Grammy nominations, and is known for worked with bands such as Disturbed Stained Plain White Tees, seven Sevendust, soil Megadeath, and many, many more. I introduce you Johnny K. Well, Johnny K. Welcome to the URM Podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:02:01):

Glad to be here. It's been fun so far, everything we talked about before we got started.

Speaker 1 (00:02:07):

Yeah, hopefully we can keep that going. I just got to say, looking at the video right now, I really, really dig the wood cabin sort of vibe that you've got going on. I used to have a cabin style studio in Florida of all places, but it kind of makes me feel a little nostalgic seeing your room, so thank you.

Speaker 2 (00:02:27):

Oh, thanks. You know what, it's super cozy and I had a big 40,000 square foot music complex in Chicago. That thing was, it was a beast. It just was too much to deal with. So I sold that and this studio here, I set up as a transition on my way to Nashville. So I have this room at home, but it's a separate building. My house has a six car garage with a workshop separate, like 200 feet out behind the house. I live on eight acres. I back up to the forest preserves, so I took that six car garage and made it into a tracking room, and then the workshop, which you're looking at now, is my control room. So this was like this when I bought the house. I mean, aside from the clouds and the acoustic treatments, but so there's old antique barnwood and there's 200 year old hand hued timbers in here, and it really sounds great in here. It's such a good room that when I do move to Nashville, we're trying to move the family to Nashville This year. When I sold the building in Chicago, I bought 33 acres in Nashville five years ago, so I'm going to put a studio, a home, and a separate home studio like this, but in Nashville.

Speaker 1 (00:03:42):

Makes sense. What's interesting to me about these wood cabin style studios is that the one that I bought, I'll send you a picture of it later. The way it was built, I don't think I could pay an acoustician to design it better. I think it's one of these situations where I guess the natural diffusion from the random patterns in the wood or whatever, it just worked perfect. It sounded incredible. You could not have paid somebody to design it,

Speaker 2 (00:04:08):

The old wood. It's definitely, it dries out and it has a really nice resonance. I'm looking up at the old antique barnwood, and now if you go looking shopping for antique barnwood, it's become kind of a trendy thing, and they're taking new wood and making it look old, but the actual old wood is expensive.

Speaker 1 (00:04:26):

Yeah, so do you consider this kind like a lucky find?

Speaker 2 (00:04:29):

Well, you know what, it was literally just where am I going to put the studio at home, and then the workshop here, it's really cool. It's got skylights and it's got a vaulted ceiling, and I just thought, well, and it was a garage basically. There were tools and stuff in here, and I was like, well, let me clean it up. So I did that nice stain on the concrete floors and threw some rugs in here and some furniture and set up the studio in here, and it's really been great. I've made some really nice recordings in here. I've had bands in here performing live, and it's great. It's a really simple one. Control room. It's 22 by 26, and then the studio room is 26 by 44. The drums sound great, great acoustics, and it's just a garage, but the garage part has some wood. It's got a vaulted, just a plywood garage ceiling, but something about it, it really works. It's bright, it's lively. It's got a nice little DK to it.

Speaker 1 (00:05:24):

So that doesn't sound like a bad transition spot. When you say that the 40,000 square foot complex was too much, was there more going on there than just you recording?

Speaker 2 (00:05:37):

Well, I had a rehearsal room,

Speaker 1 (00:05:39):

Got

Speaker 2 (00:05:39):

It in the basement, like a pre-production slash rehearsal room, and Fallout Boy was the first client when I got that building to use that room for pre-production. I had done a live recording for Truman in there, and there's been a lot of other records. It was a big, really cool room, and there was a tenant on the other side of that. It's like basement, but it's really, it was only a few feet under grade, so you could call it the first floor too. Then there was another tenant on the second floor, and then eventually two tenants there. Then the third floor was my main tracking room. The fourth floor was a loft for bands to stay, which was an awesome spot. Fifth floor was the mixing room, and the sixth floor was storage. So yeah, dealing with tenants, dealing with the city of Chicago, the taxes, the raising, the expenses were going up, the music industry, budgets were going down. It was definitely time to pull the plug.

Speaker 1 (00:06:36):

It seems like just the upkeep on a place that becomes a full-time job. I can see it being distracting from the main work.

Speaker 2 (00:06:44):

It became a little bit like that, and when the budgets were bigger, it was really great. There was a time where we had in three different rooms, we had Tramonti shine down and disturbed all in there at once, and it was really,

Speaker 1 (00:06:56):

Yeah, that's okay.

Speaker 2 (00:06:57):

That was more like 2007, 2008, but then when you started fast forwarding through the way that music business was going, and that was affecting my tenants too, so it wasn't really the best place or the best time in the music business to be doing something like that, but it was really fun and great while it lasted. There's been a lot of great memories in that building and in that spot there was a beautiful view of the skyline, so pretty positive memories, and I think it was time to start to transition to Nashville.

Speaker 1 (00:07:29):

Now, when you talk about the studio you're going to build in Nashville, you just said that you're putting that on your property too. Do you think that getting a commercial space is worth doing these days?

Speaker 2 (00:07:41):

Not for me. So I'm going to put, like I have here now, it's just my production home studio, and it'll be similar to that in Nashville. I don't need a big commercial studio, and I don't know if it's a good idea. I think there are some of those that are in LA that seem to be busy, and the great studios, the capital studios, the East West Sound City, those kind of places.

Speaker 1 (00:08:04):

Yeah, NRG,

Speaker 2 (00:08:05):

Right, NRG, sunset Sound. Those places are legendary epic rooms, and I don't think they're going anywhere, but some of them may eventually, but they're really great spots and it is always heartbreaking when you see the places in Nashville that are closing down. They saved RCA studios, but I hate to see those rooms go. I think the tracking room in Nashville was just sold such a beautiful studio with a lot of history and a lot of great records coming out of there. So I'm not interested in trying to do a commercial studio. That's how I started small with a little studio in my house, and that's how I started my business and I would record bands, and then as I got better at that, I was able to be the producer. So I started out just as a studio guy, I'll record your band. I didn't even really call myself a producer, the beginning,

Speaker 1 (00:08:55):

Just the dude who would get the job done.

Speaker 2 (00:08:58):

So I started with that little home studio. It was in a town called Evergreen Park. It's the first suburb south of the city. It's surrounded by Chicago, I think, on two or three sides. So it was just tucked in on the south side of Chicago, and I bought a little house. It was a 1200 square foot house, and I made the dining room a control room. The living room was the tracking room, and then it was two bedrooms. One bedroom I slept in the other bedroom was my overdub, my vocal and guitar booth. So I started in there and I got my first radio hit and first gold record out of that house there, which was awesome. It was a band called Loudmouth, and the song was called Fly. It was on the varsity Blues soundtrack. You can see the plaque up there.

Speaker 1 (00:09:42):

Yes, I can.

Speaker 2 (00:09:43):

That was my first plaque, and that track was recorded in my house, and that was the band got a major label deal to Hollywood Records, and they went to LA to record. I think they worked with Rob Cavallo and Joe Buri on that record, and they wound up using the demo for the first release and for that movie soundtrack. So I was the only one that got a plaque on that record.

Speaker 1 (00:10:09):

So what's interesting to me here, I've always thought that the reason that these big studios close is because in general, people aren't trying to hire studios. They're trying to hire producers or mixers. They're going for the person, especially with bigger bands,

Speaker 3 (00:10:26):

Maybe

Speaker 1 (00:10:26):

With local bands, it's different. Some local bands will try to go to a studio that has a reputation, but bigger bands with actual careers go to certain producers or mixers, and it doesn't matter where it's taking place. It could be at their home, it could be a commercial spot, it could be at a third party spot. It doesn't matter. They're going for the person.

Speaker 2 (00:10:50):

And look, if the person has awesome studio too, that helps.

Speaker 1 (00:10:54):

Well, of course. I mean within reason.

Speaker 2 (00:10:56):

I mean, if you were the only producer out there, yes, but I think there's a scenario where there's a couple of producers and one of 'em happens to be in a more desirable spot than the other one, and so I guess that's part of the logic to moving to Nashville and building the studio there on the property is to have that. I mean, the building in Chicago was super cool, and not a lot of people would think of Chicago as a place, a destination to go record, but the spot was so cool that people would come there and stay there seven to St. As Sonia disturbed. Disturbed didn't stay there, but

Speaker 1 (00:11:34):

Well, they didn't need to.

Speaker 2 (00:11:35):

Yeah, we had a lot of people in and out of that studio. Nikki Minaj had come to my room to do a track once, and they just used the studio. The record company was looking for a room, but a lot of cool bands in that room, three doors down had been there.

Speaker 1 (00:11:51):

I think that's rare though. I think that that's a very tiny percentage of studios that are cool enough, not just in the quality that they can provide you with, but also in the vibe and the ambience and the amenities. For instance, there's a studio in LA called Sphere, which I don't know if you've seen it or not, but it's the most gorgeous place I've been to, and people go there obviously because a great studio, but also because a great vibe. It wins over lots of other places, specifically because people like being there. There's definitely something to be said for that these days. I think that those are the exception,

Speaker 2 (00:12:32):

Right? The studio in the city was really a certain vibe. That was excellent. There was these epic views of the skyline. There was a lot of great things to do, a lot of great restaurants. The studio itself had pool table, ping pong, table, pinball games, dartboard. It had a lot of fun things to do. Foosball table, when you had your downtime, you could be entertained. There was a tv, there was a couch I, there was a 6,000 foot loft, but there was also a lounge. The studio had a 3000 foot lounge, so a lot of space for people to spread out. So the Nashville design on the 33 acres, it's a really beautiful piece of property. It's kind of a hilltop with sweeping views of the countryside, so it's similar, but in a much more reasonable way. It's going to be one studio, not a complex to manage, but it'll have a certain draw because it's a beautiful setting. It's a nice place to be, a little more of a rural country setting, but I think equally as dramatic, the hilltop and the views.

Speaker 1 (00:13:38):

Yeah, there's something to be said actually for being kind of isolated when making a record.

Speaker 2 (00:13:43):

Yes,

Speaker 1 (00:13:44):

The ability to focus increases for sure.

Speaker 2 (00:13:48):

The property that I found is super isolated. A lot of acres at the end of a dead end street on the west side of Nashville where there's a lot of more acreage and a lot of natural beauty, but it's only 12 and a half miles from the center of Nashville of downtown, so

Speaker 1 (00:14:06):

That's perfect. While you're at the place, you can kind of feel like you are isolated, but in reality, just get in a car and drive a few minutes and

Speaker 3 (00:14:15):

There's

Speaker 1 (00:14:15):

Cool stuff to do. I think that's the best to both worlds. The place I had in Florida, it was also, it seemed like it was in the middle of nowhere. You could drive 10 minutes and be in civilization, but it was on the edge of a 40 acre bear reserve. Oh, yeah. There are bears in Florida. You had to be careful too. They would go through your shit,

Speaker 3 (00:14:37):

Man.

Speaker 1 (00:14:37):

Yeah, the bears were an issue, but people would frequently say that they really, really loved coming there because they were able to escape their lives and just focus. That was the main thing. They're used to going to studios that kind of have, I call them the dentist office studios,

Speaker 2 (00:14:54):

Right? Hate those.

Speaker 1 (00:14:55):

Yeah, it's terrible. How are you supposed to be creative in that environment?

Speaker 2 (00:14:59):

Right, so this house, my home studio has that because I have eight acres here.

Speaker 1 (00:15:03):

Yeah, it looks like it.

Speaker 2 (00:15:05):

We back up to thousands of acres of preserves here, so there are deer walking through the yard.

Speaker 1 (00:15:09):

That's great.

Speaker 2 (00:15:10):

Hawks, eagles, raccoons, owls, coyotes,

Speaker 1 (00:15:15):

Wild kingdom.

Speaker 2 (00:15:16):

It's pretty cool around here. I walked out of the studio the other day and I heard all this splashing. We had a big rainstorm and the back of the property was probably six inches deep, looked like a pond, a huge puddle, and I looked and there was a young buck, and he was looking at himself in the water and then stomping his hooves and running and playing, and I videoed it. It's really awesome. But I heard all the splashing first, and I looked and he didn't see me, so I whipped out my camera and I videoed him for a couple of minutes just jumping and playing, and

Speaker 1 (00:15:49):

Man, I want to see that video.

Speaker 2 (00:15:51):

It's a cool video. I'd like to post it.

Speaker 1 (00:15:52):

I love seeing those videos of dogs, seeing their own reflections. Those are so good. Do people stay on your property? Do clients stay? Are they going to stay on property with you in Nashville?

Speaker 2 (00:16:04):

Well, in Nashville they'll be able to, and here it's my house with my family, so generally the bands will just, there's a nearby hotel and they'll just stay there.

Speaker 1 (00:16:14):

Yeah. I was going to ask how you felt about bands staying near your living spot or in your living spot. Sounds like you gave me the answer though.

Speaker 2 (00:16:23):

Yeah, I've been doing this a long time. Some of the clients and some of are good friends and stuff, so there's been an instance here or there where people stay in the guest

Speaker 3 (00:16:31):

Room,

Speaker 2 (00:16:32):

But generally bands, people that I don't know or whatever, they'll just stay in a hotel. It's nearby. Orland Park is just like your typical suburban town, but there's a lot of restaurants and a lot of, well, that's about it. It's got a lot of restaurants, not too much else to do. There's a nice gym, a lot of restaurants. When Aida's Way was here last, we went to the gym and shot some hoops. We had fun, a typical day, meet at the gym, shoot some baskets, head to the studio, record all day, go out, get some tacos. There's a great barbecue place of all things here. I mean, really good rivals. Any of the ones in Nashville that I've been to, better than most of them, I'd say Chicago's a good food town, I'll tell you that.

Speaker 1 (00:17:15):

It is actually. I have a friend there, artist, web designer, who works with my company. I visit him sometimes and we kind of do Chicago restaurant tours because that's the best. Yeah, it's a great town for that. So something that's interesting that you're saying is it sounds like you hang out with the bands. A lot of producers that I've had on also very accomplished producers have a mentality of don't get too friendly because there always has to be that line so that they'll take you seriously as the boss of the record in a way, but then I talk to people who feel like they want to become buddies with the band and become another band member and do it more that way. Where do you fall in that spectrum?

Speaker 2 (00:18:05):

You know what don't, it happens naturally. I think one of the best parts of this business is the people. It really is. So if you're going to deny yourself or impose some sort of rules, I can't be friends with these guys. I mean, it's like I love the people. We all have something very, very powerful that we share in common, and that's that. At some point in our lives we decided, Hey, I'm not going to be a nine to fiver. I'm not going to pursue this. I'm going to follow my passion, my dreams, and those are certain kind of people

Speaker 1 (00:18:35):

Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (00:18:36):

That I like and that we share that in common. So I would go to the gym with Brad from three Doors before Sessions all the time, and we'd go out to dinner all, I mean, it's a blast. You work hard and then they're really great people, great artists.

Speaker 1 (00:18:49):

I've always felt too, when you're working with an artist or on tour or whatever, when you really connect, there's this us versus the world almost mentality where you're both in it on this project together, that, and that's all that matters for that period of time. I think that that's a beautiful thing, and I think you're also right too, that it takes a certain kind of person to say, fuck the real world. I'm going to follow my passions. I remember when I was 19, I walked out of my last real job, which was 21 years ago now. I was working at Tower Records in Boston, and one day I was doing inventory and I walked out and promised myself, I will never have a real job again. It was just a vow to myself because it was, Hey, I know that there's people out there who have real worse problems than that, and this is total first world problem stuff, but it was soul crushing man. The type of person who would do this, typically they say they couldn't do anything else. They had to. Did you feel that way? You didn't have a choice?

Speaker 2 (00:19:59):

I definitely was thinking about what my job was going to be. I didn't know. I wasn't a kid that said, oh, I always want dreamt to being a record producer. I grew up on the south side of Chicago. There was no real career in the arts where we came from. You were either a policeman, a fireman, a tradesman. I'm half Greek, my dad is the Greek side of the family, had a Greek restaurant, and so I grew up working hard, a lot of hours dealing with customers and dealing with problems. Seems like every day something. I was not happy doing it and the idea of getting a job, it's one thing to work a job, but you're working in the family business and it's like, okay, well, there's a common goal. You're working together for something.

Speaker 1 (00:20:41):

Yeah, that's different.

Speaker 2 (00:20:43):

I think it's definitely different.

Speaker 1 (00:20:44):

Also, how old were you?

Speaker 2 (00:20:45):

I worked there from the time I was at Preteen doing busboy all the way until the studio got going, so I kind of transitioned. There were times when I first started the studio in the house, the cook would show up drunk or something. I'd have to run to the restaurant and go and cook and people are waiting and complaining. I cancel the session, Hey guys, session's over. I got to help out. So I transitioned. There was a point in time where I was too busy as a recording guy. I couldn't contribute to the restaurant at a certain point, and that was kind of about the time that I started moving the studio from the south side into the city.

Speaker 1 (00:21:24):

About how old were you when that transition started to happen?

Speaker 2 (00:21:27):

I first started trying to get set up in the city. I think I was probably late twenties.

Speaker 1 (00:21:32):

How long had you been recording at that point? I don't mean professionally, I mean in total from when you first got a four track and

Speaker 2 (00:21:41):

Probably took about seven or eight years till I got a legit, well, I mean it was just a slow growth the whole time. Yeah, of course. I mean the real boost happened, I would say probably about 10 years into my career is when Disturbed hit.

Speaker 1 (00:21:56):

There's a reason I'm asking this, our listeners, they ranged from your peers to people that are first starting out, but a lot of the people who are listening who are very early in their careers, maybe 19 years old, 20 years old, have been doing it for two years. They get discouraged from the lack of results. They want it to happen faster, and this shit takes time. It takes time to get good. It takes time to learn how to deal with clients. It takes time to network enough, and then the luck of meeting the kind of client who will make an impact on the world, that all takes a long time.

Speaker 2 (00:22:37):

It may never happen.

Speaker 1 (00:22:38):

Yes, correct. It may never happen.

Speaker 2 (00:22:40):

Yeah, I think it usually, I mean, if you were to look at the odds, I would say the chances of recording are disturbed that comes through your studio is probably more of a anomaly exception than a rule. But I would say that I was good at what I did before Disturbed. I mean, I had the song with Loud Mouth and then I had bands that were years before Disturbed that were looked at by labels that there were so many close calls before that one happened, where this major labels are calling about this one band, but I didn't know how to set up a showcase. The band maybe didn't have a big following in the city. I just didn't know how to do it. So I think if I was in LA or somewhere where, I mean, and the south side of Chicago, there's nobody you can ask for advice. There's no entertainment attorneys, there's no business managers, there's no rock stars. There really isn't any help or guidance at all,

Speaker 1 (00:23:39):

And there wasn't much internet back then either.

Speaker 2 (00:23:41):

Knowing what I know now. Definitely there been a lot of bands. Of course, I was getting better as a producer too, and I feel like even at this stage in my career, having had a lot of platinum and multi-platinum and all these things, I feel like I still am learning and getting better at what I do. It's interesting how I look back and I was focused on the sound, but then that became natural, like brushing my teeth, getting sounds wasn't a challenge anymore. The sounds were, I was just good and quick at it and recognizing talent and filling in the blanks, and sometimes that meant songwriting or contributing to the songs. So if you circle back to what you talked about before about being friends with the band, I am friends with most of the bands and certainly friendly with them, but if I feel like the song could be better, it doesn't have to be an adversarial relationship. I just will challenge the band and stand my ground until I'm happy with it. So we could be the best of buds and it's not going to change the fact that I feel that the chorus needs to be better.

Speaker 1 (00:24:51):

Yeah, well, of course.

Speaker 2 (00:24:52):

And we need to rewrite it once or twice or 10 times or however long it takes. I started out as a guitar player and I was in a couple bands and I was always writing the music, and one of the things that I didn't do in the early part of my career was get involved in the writing with the bands. I basically was a producer. I would tell them, well, you need to change this or do this or that.

Speaker 1 (00:25:15):

So you're more and more just the tone aspect of everything,

Speaker 2 (00:25:18):

Structures, tones, that kind of stuff. Definitely working on the structures, the arrangements, the flow, the dynamics, song selection, all that kind of stuff. Over the past five, six years, whatever. I just started writing with the bands. I was working with Megadeath, with Dave Mustain, and I had some ideas and I stayed late and kind of put a scratch idea down and wrote some words. I showed it to Dave and he liked it. I had done the same with Stained and it wasn't like a big deal for me because I was a band guy. I was a musician, I am a musician, but I hadn't really pursued that side of my talents or my abilities until more recently in my career. And then that kind of transitioned into working with younger artists and really getting involved in the writing and really getting involved in, and so a lot of what I've been doing lately is writing sessions and getting together with artists.

Speaker 1 (00:26:17):

I want to key in on something you just said about Dave Mustain. The fact that you had an idea and you put it together on your own and then showed it to him the next day, I think is really, really crucial. I've noticed that a lot of the times when producers have a hard time getting bands to accept their ideas, it's typically in the way they approach it. It's typically because they approach talking about the idea, verbalizing what it's supposed to be, trying to get them to imagine it, rather than just hitting Space bar and letting them hear it. I've always thought that the music itself will do the talking for you. If the idea is good, all they have to do is hear it, and either they like it or they don't, but I feel like talking about it too much opens up a lot of room for disagreement. If you're trying to verbalize something, how is another person even going to know what you mean? They're not inside your head. They don't have your ears,

Speaker 2 (00:27:16):

And I wish I was a better singer because then I could really show, but I figure if it's good enough for them to accept it with my limited vocal ability, it's only going to get better when they sing it.

Speaker 1 (00:27:27):

Yeah, of course.

Speaker 2 (00:27:29):

So I've written with Adelaide's Way, pop Evil, mega Death, some new artists that I've been writing with, the Black Moods, this kid, Eddie Eberly, who I'm very excited about, and then I've got some artists that I like that are great writers, and I like kind of their narrative and how they do it, and I don't get involved and I do what is necessary.

Speaker 1 (00:27:51):

Someone told me once that the mark of a great producer is knowing when to get the fuck out of the way and when not to. Of course,

Speaker 2 (00:27:58):

Yes. And you need to be secure enough to know that you definitely don't need to always hear yourself talk. If the song is great and the band has it down, just record and let it be. I enjoy those sessions. I really like all the different aspects of, I mean, I love my job. What could I say? I put it this way, if you come in with a song that's good enough that I'm not telling you anything, then I'm a fan of yours. You know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (00:28:24):

That says a lot.

Speaker 2 (00:28:25):

Yeah, because I'm a tough cookie. To get a song passed, your songs have to be dialed, and I would say the Michigan Rattlers are that band. I love the songwriting. I literally shook my head and said, how did Graham Young, the main writer in the band, I've been working with him for a few years, I think he's only 25 now, but he came in with some songs and I was like, you sound like you're 50 years old and lived a hard life like an old soul. How do you do that? It's really well done and really amazing. Then you got somebody like Eddie Eberly, who I really believe in, and I think he's a great talent, kind of like a Bon Jovi meets Tom Petty kind of an artist, and he has great ideas, but look, he's a teenager. He was 17 when we started working together.

(00:29:13):

I think he's 19 now, but he just needs a little guidance and a little help with the songwriting, and also he kind of embraces collaboration pretty well. So that's kind of a good thing. I certainly don't like the idea of, okay, I got to sit down and write this song all by myself. I love working with people and hearing feedback about, oh, what if we said it like this? Or what if when you're working with talented people, it's a lot of fun. You hear their ideas, you see what they would do with it. You work together. I think that's my favorite part of the entire job, the actual song creation and then the mix. I like the beginning and the ends the best, and of course the production is hard work. It's just time and hard work. If you're editing a drum track, it takes time.

Speaker 1 (00:30:01):

Are you a lone operator, lone wolf?

Speaker 2 (00:30:04):

Depends. I like to do it alone, but if there's a release date and a budget and things have to get moving faster, I'll definitely work with an engineer and an editor. But I started out as a studio owner and engineer, so over all the years I've engineered all my record and there are times when I've had somebody run tracks for me while I work with the singer on lyrics for the next song or whatever to move things along fast. But generally I'll set the mics, get the

Speaker 1 (00:30:33):

Tones. They're just operating the D basically.

Speaker 2 (00:30:36):

I mean, yes. Well, if I'm not in the room, I had some good assistance over the years that were capable of producing on their own too, so they would say, yeah, that's out of time, or Do it again. They're recording the sounds, but getting good performances.

Speaker 1 (00:30:51):

What does it take for you to be comfortable with someone assisting you? I imagine that, like you said, you're a tough cookie to get songs passed you. I'm sure that same goes for if you're going to let somebody actually hit record for you or edit the drums for you, that's you can't just walk into that job. There's got to be criteria.

Speaker 2 (00:31:13):

I'm never ever pleased with drum edits from any engineer, so I do it myself. It's so personal. I like to maintain a good pocket, and I feel like anybody could quantize drums to the grid, but who actually has enough feel to give the drums a live pocket. Maybe the pocket's inside out, maybe the pocket's wrong or just it's pushing and pulling, whatever. So I kind of like to do it myself, and I've even trained guys on how I do it. To some extent they do, but I prefer to do it myself. So usually I'll have 'em do it and then I go through it anyway and I double check everything. It's quicker to double check than it is to start from scratch. So

(00:31:56):

Tuning vocals, but not comping vocals. I need to comp the vocal and then I can give it to somebody to tune and then they can tune it, and then I can listen back and be like, look, some singers need to go touch sharp to get the energy across. Sometimes it needs to be a touch under to give it the bluesy feel. So even when I've had guys do editing or tuning, I go through, I always save the original track and then I go back and I make adjustments to that, but it's a lot quicker because a lot of it's good, and then you hear a few lines here or there or a few beats or here and there. So if I have a guy edit the drums, I won't have him consolidate. It

Speaker 1 (00:32:35):

Makes sense,

Speaker 2 (00:32:36):

And then I'll go through and nudge some around. I take my time on that stuff. I really am like the Michigan Rattlers record that I'm working on now, the first track Desert Heat is out already, but I'm finishing the mixes as we speak, and a lot of that record is tracked without a click, and then I go back and tempo map the actual live take, and a lot of times I'll find that I'm following the singer's vocals and guitar because he's the leader of, he's singing the song and then once that tempo map is made to his performance, locking the drums to that.

Speaker 1 (00:33:17):

Interesting. So he must have a really good natural pocket as a vocalist, which isn't always the case.

Speaker 2 (00:33:24):

Yeah, sometimes the drummer has the best pocket and this band, the singer, and what was really crazy is when I was tempo mapping, he would do a verse at a certain tempo and then hit the chorus and it would speed up a couple BPMs, and then when he went to the verse, he would drop. It was literally back to the exact same tempo. The thing is, if you don't listen to the click and you just listen to the song and how it feels, and then you do takes until you get one that feels really good, you're like, wow, that feels great. In this case, the whole band is playing together, so they're in the room looking at each other playing together. So you get a take that you really like, that feels really good, and then you go back and you notice, hey, the verses are in the same tempo. The chorus are in the same tempo. The last chorus might be a touch faster, but it feels good. It gives the song energy. So those are the things that is what I liked about the song. So to go back, if I attracted it to a straight tempo, none of those things would exist. None of those flows, none of that musicality would exist.

Speaker 1 (00:34:27):

Ironing the musicality out of it, basically.

Speaker 2 (00:34:30):

I don't do it that way and I never do. And the band unlocking the truth, they were 13 years old when they got that Sony deal. I don't know how good they were at the Click. Not really good. They were still so young. I had 'em track the songs without the click until it felt right, and they had tempo changes and slows, speed up slowdowns, all that kind of stuff. So I had him do a couple of takes till it felt good. Then I tempo mapped it, told him to get lunch or whatever, and then had 'em retrack again to the tempo map of the best take so that I had multiple takes, and then I comped it together, and then I built the song on that rhythm

Speaker 1 (00:35:08):

Man. So there's something about older heavy records like the First Slipknot record or Cool Pantera Records or something where I believe that one of the reasons that people love those records is because the tempos are kind of wild. It'll speed up on fills. It'll go into a blast beat, and suddenly it's like 20 BPM faster go to a halftime part. Suddenly it's like

Speaker 3 (00:35:32):

20

Speaker 1 (00:35:33):

Bpm, slower, but maybe technically it's off a defined grid, but it feels like the right thing for the music. And I think that when Beat Detective became a thing, that style of editing became a thing. That whole aspect of making records kind of got lost, but I think some people kept it alive, and nowadays a lot more people think about it that way. They'll map tempos to performances, for instance. I'm convinced actually that one of the reasons that those old records work is because of the fluctuating tempos for sure.

Speaker 2 (00:36:12):

No question. And that's what we did on the Unlocking The Truth Record. They had all those big speed ups and slowdowns and dramatic 20 BPM changes from the verse to the chorus. It was crazy. I couldn't even imagine. How would you try to reign that in or why would you want to?

Speaker 1 (00:36:30):

That's a good question. Why would you want to, if it feels good,

Speaker 2 (00:36:33):

I remember, I think it was 2007, 2008, 2007, I had a bunch of big records booked back to back. I had stained three doors down plain white tees, and then I had this new band on Interscope called The Black Tide, and this is when people were really getting crazy about Pro Tools. Right around that time you had the Lincoln Parks and stuff that the records were completely mechanical sounding. And look, they did a great job of it, but I didn't love that I was recording the Pro Tools, but I started with a tape machine and I kind of liked, I always appreciated the feel of music, especially when the band was good. When there are good players, the only thing you're going to do when you start gridding drums is ruining the feel or the performance. So that year, I didn't think anybody would listen or care or even notice, but I had recorded stained in Aaron Lewis's barn up in Massachusetts, and we did it live and we did it all in the same room, and it had a certain mojo.

(00:37:38):

I did three doors down in a house in Florida outside of Orlando. They rented a big house to write music, and then they loved it there. So I brought the studio down there and set it up and packed up a little board and a bunch of Mic Pres and the pro tools and everything, and just set up shop in this house and also recorded things live with the band playing. And same thing with the playing white tees. Everybody in the same room again. At that time, we went to Malibu. We did it at that house on Morning View that I think Incubus made famous. They named their album Morning View. I did the Plain White Tease record there, recorded them live in the same room with vocals, with wedges, so they didn't even have to wear headphones. They were hearing music in the room. And I did basically the complete opposite of the trend, which was pursuing perfection and pro tools. I didn't think anybody would care or notice, but that was the year I was nominated for Producer of the Year. So somebody obviously was listening and saying, Hey, these records feel and sound real. It sounds like a band, like a band playing

Speaker 1 (00:38:49):

Sounds like music.

Speaker 2 (00:38:51):

And I like a lot of electronic music, and I think some of the sounds are really cool and the production is really cool. It's not like I don't like it, and I do some of that stuff too. I have an artist named Annie O'Malley, a young up and coming, kind of a indie pop girl. Not like a Billie Eilish, but not like a Taylor Swift, but somewhere in between. But it's very pop and I like doing that kind of stuff too, but it's not a band. If you give me a band, I'm going to record a band

Speaker 1 (00:39:18):

That's appropriate for that genre of music. If you're doing electronic music, there's a certain feel that works for it, but it's very, very different than the feel of a band. Absolutely. And to circle back to what you were saying about editing drums or vocals, I've always thought that it can't be a novice because you have to understand music. You've got to be a musical person to edit or you're just going to computerize everything.

Speaker 2 (00:39:50):

Exactly. And how I've been dealing with that rather than paying an assistant and budgets have come down, so it's like, okay, well, you could give the assistant half the budget to sit there and do something that I hate anyway. I'm not going to do it. So what I do is I may let the band go a little earlier and they stay fresh during the project. They're not all beat up or worn out. They actually come in, they do what they need to do. We don't kill each other during the session, and then I let 'em go early, and then I'll have dinner or whatever visit the family, and then I'll come back late and get the editing done. A lot of times I say, Hey, at the same time it's like, you need to rewrite this course. You need to work on it. So

Speaker 1 (00:40:27):

Here's some homework.

Speaker 2 (00:40:28):

Yeah. So instead of all of us grinding it for 12 hours in the studio, they may work eight hours and then do what they need to do to unwind. And then with a fresh head, they can work on their lyrics or work on their melodies, and I'll work on their edits and stuff. And then we make just as fast a progress working less and maybe better results too.

Speaker 1 (00:40:50):

I was about to say, I bet your progress is better because I find that on projects where you're going redlining it basically RPMs at max, it works for a little while, but then the energy shrink, they just hits this point where everybody starts to burn out, progress slows down.

Speaker 2 (00:41:08):

None of us got in this business to be slave to the grind. We got in because we're artists. We want freedom of time and freedom of expression and want to have fun. Nobody said, I want to be a rock star. I want to grind it out and for it to suck. The whole idea is it's the dream. You want to achieve your goals. I mean, I put in a lot of hours in the studio.

Speaker 1 (00:41:30):

I was about to say, you're still talking about working 10 to 12 hour days.

Speaker 2 (00:41:33):

Yeah, it's a grind, but I have the freedom to split it up in a way that works for me now.

Speaker 1 (00:41:38):

Yes,

Speaker 2 (00:41:38):

I start with the band in the daytime. The kids are at school or whatever, I may see them after school for a little bit, say hi, and then get back to work, but then I might send the band home around eight or nine, and then I go put the kids to bed or do a little family time. Then I come back and edit till 1:00 AM or so, 2:00 AM depending on how tired I am. I love that way of doing things. The band is fresh, they, they show up. Nobody's worn out. If a band guy's got a substance problem, I shift gears. Then I do work 'em all night long.

Speaker 1 (00:42:10):

If they've got a cocaine problem or something

Speaker 2 (00:42:12):

Or an alcohol or they just want to go out and party all night or whatever, I shift gears

Speaker 1 (00:42:17):

In order to keep them restrained basically.

Speaker 2 (00:42:20):

Yeah, I'll switch gears and I'll be like, okay, look, we're going to work late until bars are closed or whatever, and there's not much to do.

Speaker 1 (00:42:26):

That's smart.

Speaker 2 (00:42:28):

That doesn't mean that somebody can't go buy a bottle of whiskey and drink it in their hotel room or whatever.

Speaker 1 (00:42:32):

So it's interesting that you bring that up because it's obviously a real issue with lots of bands. I don't know if it's as much of an issue as it used to be because I think that the business side, labels managers, there's not as much money to go around, and so they don't want to take chances on loose Cannons would maybe in the eighties could get away with tons of debauchery because there was so much money that there was enough money for people to put up with it. But right now, I think there's not enough money for people to put up with it. You've got to be really, really bringing it in for people to tolerate that kind of behavior. But it still exists and it still gets in the way

Speaker 2 (00:43:19):

It exists now, and the tolerance for it is way down, and the business is tighter. You're exactly right. I mean it, there's less money. The business is tighter. You have to be more on your game. So if you have an addiction problem, it makes you getting what you need to get done harder. And then people, everybody needs to be working, the manager, the band, everybody needs to be doing their part to have success these days. And if somebody's slacking off because they're drunk or they're whatever, it just makes it harder. And I'm sure at a certain level of success, people are dealing with that. But getting started these days, I think, yeah, a lot of people won't deal with you or won't mess with you if you're off the rails.

Speaker 1 (00:44:03):

There's a flip side though, the flip side being that if someone does have a substance abuse problem, you don't want them to get sober in the studio because that in and of itself is going to be a train wreck if they're withdrawing, even if they're just trying to quit smoking, for instance, I'd always tell vocalists, if you're going to quit smoking because for the studio, do it six months in advance. Don't do it this week. If you do drugs, don't quit at the studio. Your life is going to suck and you're going to make everybody else's life suck. So

Speaker 2 (00:44:40):

Right. And if it's an angry record, that might be the best thing for it. You never know if somebody's pissed off, it might put more, a little more anger into their vocal tracks.

Speaker 1 (00:44:49):

That is if they can function.

Speaker 2 (00:44:51):

Right. I will note this, some of your favorite classic albums of all time that have stood the test of time were all made by addicts.

Speaker 1 (00:45:00):

Oh, of course. And then they stopped making music that was as legendary when they got clean typically, which kind of sad or died. So I have wondered about this. If the reason that that cliche out there about artists starting to suck when they go clean, is it really that they suck because they went clean? Or is it that they did so much damage to their brains over the years of abuse that by the time they get clean they're burnt out the end?

Speaker 2 (00:45:34):

I don't know if you could generalize that. I think it's very

Speaker 1 (00:45:37):

Specific to the individual,

Speaker 2 (00:45:39):

And I wouldn't say that all records of clean artists are bad.

Speaker 1 (00:45:44):

No, of course not.

Speaker 2 (00:45:45):

I think the Seven dust record where Clint was newly sober that I did is called Cold Day Memory. I mean, I love that album, and I think that he's a professional, he's focused, he wanted make a great record. I don't think to him it mattered one way or the other. Cleaner, sober. He just wanted to do his best work, and he was focused on that solely.

Speaker 1 (00:46:07):

Cory Taylor, getting off of booze was one of the best decisions he made for his career too. There are, of course artists who actually get better.

Speaker 2 (00:46:17):

People like to say that, and look, there are plenty artists that say they're sober and are not, and make a record, and people say, oh, that record sucks because they're sober. And it's like, well,

Speaker 1 (00:46:28):

It just sucks. It sucks.

Speaker 2 (00:46:29):

If you knew the truth, they weren't sober. They claimed to be sober, they weren't, and the record still sucks or whatever.

Speaker 1 (00:46:38):

So one thing that was really interesting to me about the nineties, I'm sure you remember this, is that drugs were very glamorized in rock. So it was like a cool thing to have a heroin addiction, for instance, and me being a teenager in the nineties, thinking back to that, that's so negative of a thing to push out there, but it was made to seem cool. But then I also do very specifically remember that there were artists who would say that they kicked it, they're totally clean, and that would be a major part of their press campaign. But several years later, I am in the music business and meet these people or know people that work with these people and find out that the truth is that they were never clean ever. And they were just saying that that was just a story invented by a publicist, which was kind of mind blowing actually.

Speaker 2 (00:47:34):

Well, yeah, I would say that there were definitely, if I reflect back on my career, there were definitely those artists that were drug addicts by choice. They thought that's what you needed to be to be a rockstar. And what came after that was maybe getting tatted up right after the drug addiction thing wasn't cool anymore, what took its place like who has the most tattoos? And maybe more lately it was who has the biggest beard? I don't know. Over the years, things have changed. It's true. I think that sometimes that creative people and certainly creative geniuses that have that overactive mind may find some sort of peace or be able to quiet the mind with drugs or alcohol.

Speaker 1 (00:48:19):

I agree.

Speaker 2 (00:48:19):

I think that's one aspect. I also think the music, the art itself comes from a lot of artists maybe had some sort of chaos or trauma in their upbringing. And I think that the music, even if you're not singing about that trauma that you've grown up or lived or experienced,

Speaker 1 (00:48:37):

It's still in you.

Speaker 2 (00:48:38):

It's the source of passion for that music. The inspiration or the source or the, it's basically, yes, it's part of the expression is coming from that place. I feel like the touring and playing those songs over and over again never really allows the artist to heal on the inside. I think that you continue to tear at that wound. And I think that's another source of addiction of trouble for certain artists is that it's very complex issue. But I think it comes from there. I think it also comes from the fact that how quiet and lonely it can be after the big high of being on stage. There's so many reasons and so many factors that work against sobriety in the industry that I think it's a more difficult thing than you might realize. For all those reasons,

Speaker 1 (00:49:35):

All those reasons are absolutely valid. I mean, what about social anxiety? So many artists and creative people are natural introverts that have serious social anxiety issues, and alcohol helps. And the music industry is a very social industry. You have to socialize. Some people need that in order to be able to get along with people. Also, what you said about creative geniuses, man, I really do believe that anybody who is creatively gifted is going to be wired differently than the norm. By definition, they're going to be wired differently. And trauma or no trauma, though, a lot of them do experience traumas regardless. Creative genius type is a unique person that doesn't really fit into any category, and that can cause them to feel very ostracized and alienated from the world they live in just by existing. Nothing even has to happen to them. It's just they're so unique that they don't really fit in with anybody anywhere, ever. And add a hypercharged mind to that. And sometimes they need to self-medicate basically.

Speaker 2 (00:50:53):

I know people that are much better to deal with when they're super high

(00:50:58):

And they stay high and it chills 'em out. So all those things, they all are part of the job. They all come under the umbrella of being a record producer and recognizing who you're dealing with and how they are is helpful to you. And I'm not in it to be anybody's life coach or parent or anything like that. I stay focused on the task at hand, and it's not my place or not my job to tell artists how to live their lives. All I do is try to tell them how I feel they can make their songs and their music better. And if they're with me, that's what they want. Obviously, that's chosen to pursue that. When you hire a producer, you're looking for somebody to help you, to help your songs. And so that's all. And you care about some of these people. And when you see these things happen, and sadly, I've lost some friends along the way, whether it's OD or suicide or whatever it is, it's heartbreaking. It's just awful. And you see, what's interesting is that people in the music industry say that's it. But I was curious about that, that it's part of the job or it's part of it comes with the territory or it's, I looked up, just out of curiosity, what professions have the most drug addicts and alcoholics and stuff. And I don't recall the list off the top of my head, but I remember being surprised that musician wasn't at the top of the list. There were other professions that were high.

Speaker 1 (00:52:31):

Was it something like police officer?

Speaker 2 (00:52:33):

Forget what it said. But the point is we don't see it in our profession. And I think what happens is it's more publicized because the people are famous. And I think that what you'll see is that a lot of people that aren't famous also struggle with addiction, also struggle with depression and suicide and all those other things that are there. And I think it just goes more unnoticed. You would seem like, oh, if you're a rockstar, you're definitely setting yourself up for addiction, loneliness, alcoholism, and look, part of the lifestyle too. The band.

Speaker 1 (00:53:08):

Yeah, I was about to say, I agree with you a hundred percent, but touring for instance, that anything you want is there for this from experience.

Speaker 2 (00:53:19):

Well, okay, but look, there's also happy hour too. Yes. Touring.

Speaker 1 (00:53:23):

Yes, you're right. You're right. But they don't give you pills and coke and heroin at happy hour.

Speaker 2 (00:53:28):

They do. But you get it. Yes, you do. The bars have it. Those guys that work at those high,

Speaker 1 (00:53:34):

Fair enough

Speaker 2 (00:53:35):

Pressure, fair enough. Financial jobs, those guys are doing blow afterwards. They're living on it. They're working. I'm going to look that up, but I don't think rock stars.

Speaker 1 (00:53:45):

That is very interesting that you bring that up. And I would say that you're probably right, just based on the stats, for instance, on the opioid epidemic and all the deaths related to that, if it were only musicians, there would be no real stats on it. It would be a statistical rounding error.

Speaker 2 (00:54:04):

There'd be no musicians left.

Speaker 1 (00:54:06):

Yes, exactly. I don't think there's enough musicians to make up a stat, the kind that you're seeing from alcohol abuse or opioid abuse.

Speaker 2 (00:54:19):

Okay. I had to pull it up since we were talking about

Speaker 1 (00:54:21):

It. Okay. Yeah. What did you find?

Speaker 2 (00:54:23):

Okay. Drug and alcohol abuse among US workers. Let's see. I got the site here, but I'm looking for the rankings. Drug use and arts and entertainment and recreation. Where's the category?

Speaker 1 (00:54:35):

What jobs have the highest addiction rates? I just found that,

Speaker 2 (00:54:38):

What's it say?

Speaker 1 (00:54:39):

Let's see here. Doctors and healthcare professionals.

Speaker 2 (00:54:42):

Yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:54:43):

Attorneys and lawyers. Mining didn't see that one coming. Construction,

Speaker 2 (00:54:49):

When I was building the studios in the early days, I did construction on the side and while I was building my own studio. And so my friend who was a construction guy showed me the ropes and we'd pick up side jobs to build other studios and stuff and a lot of the construction guys had issues.

Speaker 1 (00:55:09):

I could see that

Speaker 2 (00:55:10):

I saw more issues with construction workers than I did, than I did ever did in the music business.

Speaker 1 (00:55:15):

Well, there's one thing that's true about the music business, especially the past 20 years and on, like we were saying earlier, there's a lot less tolerance for that kind of behavior. And then also I firmly believe that the kind of person who gets successful as an artist, basically from 2000 and on maybe a little earlier, but that type of person has to be extremely driven, focused on their shit, talented, and they can't really be held back by anything. It's a certain type of person and that's why I actually do think that there's less of this in music than there used to be.

Speaker 3 (00:56:00):

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:56:00):

So I actually think you're right. This goes along with what we were saying earlier, that it's less tolerated in music. However, I bet you if you were to look up these stats from the eighties for instance, this might be a different story completely.

Speaker 2 (00:56:15):

Well no, because in the eighties everybody was going crazy too. It might not be, but that'd be a good comparison. But yeah, I always thought that, but it's interesting to look up and realize, hey, you know what, it's not. So this is for the parents out there that are worried about your kids becoming a musician or whatever because you're afraid they're going to become a drug addict or an alcoholic

Speaker 1 (00:56:39):

Worry if they become a stockbroker,

Speaker 2 (00:56:40):

Right? If you're a lawyer, an attorney, a doctor stockbroker

Speaker 1 (00:56:44):

Or a minor.

Speaker 2 (00:56:45):

Or a minor.

Speaker 1 (00:56:46):

Just to clarify, M-I-N-E-R, not M-I-N-O-R.

Speaker 2 (00:56:50):

Correct.

Speaker 1 (00:56:50):

Just to clarify,

Speaker 2 (00:56:51):

I bet you there are a good amount of parents out there that stare their kids away from a career in music for that exact reason, I'm just guessing, but I bet you they do. The way it's publicized, it would make you think that it's worse than it is, but it isn't. And the truth is, I have dealt with it in the studio and I have had clients that have, but I mean I would say 90% or more people are here to get their work done. And in my career we've all gone out drinking after sessions and had our parties and stuff, but when it's time to work, it's time to work and we get it done. We work hard.

Speaker 1 (00:57:27):

Those bands don't go platinum by accident and it's not by luck and it's not by accident. It's a certain type of person,

Speaker 2 (00:57:34):

The magic fairy dust that people are looking for when they come to record a record with me, I'm always the first one to tell 'em The magic fairy dust is hard work, good old fashioned hard work when you put in the time, if you're not putting every ounce of everything you have into this record and putting your whole heart and abilities and everything forward, somebody else is. And that is the fairy dust. It's,

Speaker 1 (00:58:02):

Have you ever seen that movie? There Will Be Blood. It's from 2008 with Daniel D. Lewis where he's an oil baron.

Speaker 2 (00:58:08):

Oh yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:58:08):

You remember?

Speaker 2 (00:58:09):

Love that movie.

Speaker 1 (00:58:10):

Yeah, it's incredible. One of the best acting performances of all time. If you haven't seen, there Will Be Blood Watch it and don't listen to what I'm about to say because I'm about to give a spoiler. But remember the end, the drink, your milkshake part?

Speaker 2 (00:58:24):

I'm not sure. It's been a while since I've seen it, but I'm inspired to watch it again. But

Speaker 1 (00:58:28):

Yeah, it basically, he says that he dug underneath somebody else's land to reach their well and before he beats him over the head with a bowling queue.

Speaker 2 (00:58:40):

Oh yeah. Was that at the bowling alley? I remember that,

Speaker 1 (00:58:42):

Yeah. Yeah, at the bowling alley. Yeah. He's like, I drink your milkshake. I drink it right up. And that stuck with me throughout my entire career that if you don't handle your shit, somebody else is going to handle it for you. They will eat your lunch. There are a lot of driven, hungry, talented, smart people out there if you're not taking things as seriously as possible, and I don't mean not having fun, but still not taking things as seriously as possible. Someone else will come along and drink your milkshake basically. Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (00:59:14):

It's interesting, I look at my career in the beginning and how hard I worked and how hungry I was, and then I look at it now and I work hard, but I'm not going to argue that I work as hard now as I did when I was trying to get established.

Speaker 1 (00:59:28):

You're still saying that you put in like 10 hour days

Speaker 2 (00:59:31):

And that's not as hard as it used to be.

Speaker 1 (00:59:34):

No, I know. But also you've been doing this a while, so alright, let me tell you where I'm coming from with this. My dad's a musician. He had lots of musician friends. I remember when I was 17 and was trying to play guitar, he brought over this friend of his that was a really famous jazz drummer who's 45 years old who played with everybody. I mean he was godly and he put me in my place about my guitar playing, which wasn't great. And then I asked him, okay, how much do you practice? And he was like, I don't practice. I used to practice. Now I just visualize that stuck with me. But then I realized of course he practiced his ass off for so long that now he's at a point where drums are second nature to him. And I mean, you even said earlier that the tone part of this, for instance, is now second nature to you so you don't have to do all the kind of work you might have had to do originally because a lot of this is already like you hardcoded it into your DNA basically.

Speaker 2 (01:00:38):

Well, yeah, and sometimes when you're looking for a new sound or trying to create something new, you have to be willing to take the time. You can't be unwilling now. You can always do what you know, but there are times when you want to explore. Here's something that you always learn in this business, and I worked really hard. Nothing came easy for me. I had worked really hard and I came from I think a place where it was harder to get going from my neighborhood to be able to get from the south side of Chicago, a very blue collar area with not a lot of opportunities to get from there to Grammy red Carpets was a long, long road with a lot of sacrifice and a lot of hard work, but I never complained about it. I loved the challenge. I loved that I had a passion for what I was doing. I just did it so I didn't think about it, I just did it. What's interesting is that the first disturbed record, we were working with Andy Wallace and he was a veteran. He had a long career before we got to work with him and he mixed that first disturbed record, but he took Saturday and Sunday off, which to me was like a luxury, but he earned it, right? Andy Wallace is one of the greatest rock mixers of all time.

Speaker 1 (01:01:59):

He can take weekends.

Speaker 2 (01:02:00):

He took two days off on the weekend, which sometimes I would take one day off, but not always.

Speaker 1 (01:02:05):

How long did it take before you even took one day off? Just curious.

Speaker 2 (01:02:08):

I mean, I just did what I had to do. I didn't even think about it, it didn't matter. But he still, there were times when we'd be working till midnight still and he had been doing a long time and I just thought, well, the greats are the greats and I really enjoyed that about Dave Mustain. After all the albums and all the accomplishments that he's had and all of his abilities, he was there. He showed up on time every morning and worked all day and sometimes he would step away to gather his thoughts or listen. He'd get out of the studio and go listen to some music or whatever he would do, but he was there and he put in the time and disturbed. They're so hardworking when they come to the studio and everybody does their part and they're like a fine tuned machine amongst the guys and while we're tracking one song, they've got their own pro tools rig in the lounge and they're preparing the next song and going through the ideas.

Speaker 1 (01:03:05):

They're not fucking around.

Speaker 2 (01:03:06):

So the most successful artists and even professionals, producers, you learn how to work in this job. I don't think you succeed without a great work ethic and if you want to continue to do this, it's just something that you do. And there are times my wife will be like, well, we need you to do this or that, and that's like, well, I got to work and it doesn't get done. There are times when I'll mix a song and it's done in four hours and it sounds great and I can't do anything. It's done. But you got to be ready for the 10 hour mix sometimes. You know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (01:03:42):

The song ain't going to mix itself. Some play nice and some do not play nice and doesn't matter.

Speaker 2 (01:03:47):

It's done when it's done. And there's times where I've worked on a mix all day and the next day it's four more hours the next day and then there's times when I mix it in four hours and nobody wants it any better. It's just all the songs aren't the same and sometimes the feel just has to be right. And sometimes that just takes time. So I guess it was reassuring to me to see these veterans that had been doing it longer than I have, still putting in the hours and still working hard and I love that.

Speaker 1 (01:04:20):

Well, I know something cool. Well, I've got two things about what you just said, but something really cool because done like 275 episodes of this podcast and

Speaker 3 (01:04:33):

Wow,

Speaker 1 (01:04:34):

I don't know if you're familiar with now the mix, but

Speaker 3 (01:04:36):

I've heard of it. Yeah,

Speaker 1 (01:04:37):

We've done 70 of those and then been around musicians my whole life and one thing I have noticed from doing all of these is that these people that are at the top of their game and have been for a long time now still love it. They still have that same enthusiasm that they did when they were 20. I mean they know a lot more now. Maybe they take two days off or whatever, but for their own sanity or to not get divorced, but they still approach it with the same kind of wonder and love and enthusiasm as always. That is a common bond I've noticed among all the vets that are doing great. In my experience, that's not uncommon at all.

Speaker 2 (01:05:27):

Yes, if I have too much time off from work, go nuts, I do become

Speaker 1 (01:05:32):

Irritable. Same here.

Speaker 2 (01:05:34):

So there's something in me, I'm not sure what it is, but doing this calms me. It makes me happy. I'm not happy. I mean we're getting the house ready, we're trying to sell it so we can move to Nashville. So I had a bunch of things to do around the house, so I didn't work for a few days and honest to goodness, I mean just after a few days I was about as irritable as possible. It's hard for me to take a vacation, although when I do go somewhere with the kids, it takes me a couple days to kick back and then I can enjoy myself. I like short vacations, little weekend trips, road trips. The big vacation is hard for me.

Speaker 1 (01:06:13):

I did one in December for the first time in five years for that reason. It was like a seven day vacation, which is long. It was great, but it was five years, full years with no vacations and I travel a lot for work, but that's not vacation, that's constant grind. My family used to make fun of me back when we would have family vacations, I would just be fucking miserable.

Speaker 2 (01:06:38):

Oh man.

Speaker 1 (01:06:39):

I wouldn't be able to work. I wouldn't have a guitar with me, wouldn't have recording rig. Just stuck in a hotel. And this is again, first world problems. I know I'm complaining about going on vacation with the family, but I can't help the way my brain is wired. That's just me. This brings me into the other thing I wanted to mention. You talked about sacrifice, like family needing you for things at times and you not being able to do that. I think that it's totally possible to have a happy family life or a happy marriage when doing this, but it's crucial, like crucial deal breaker. You have to have a partner that is down and understands they don't have to be in the game, but they have to understand what it is that you do and be cool with it or it's not going to work.

Speaker 2 (01:07:29):

They're definitely cool with it and obviously when you get married and everything, everyone, it's over the years it can grow tired. So I understand that and I definitely try to do stuff with the kids and try to work my schedule so that I can be part of their lives more. Well, of course I feel like over the years I've earned that. If I have clients in from out of town and I need to go to my little guy's basketball game, he's eight years old or whatever, I say, Hey, we're going to end early tonight. You got to work on this course. I got to a basketball game and I'm going to come back later or you guys hang out in the studio and I'll go and I'll be back. That happens occasionally and sometimes I skip the games. If I got work to do, it's like my wife's got to handle it so when I can, I go when I can't.

(01:08:18):

I think it teaches the kids a good lesson too, which is, hey, got to work, this shit doesn't come for free. The reality of life is you got to work. And I tell them, I love my job, I love what I do and I'm very fortunate and lucky to have this profession and I tell them, your life is going to be the decisions you choose. So I chose something that was hard, that was challenging, that wasn't guaranteed, but I loved it. And so I don't feel like work is work. I feel like not being at work is harder than being at work. So

Speaker 1 (01:08:50):

Yeah, it's interesting that you're talking about how them seeing that you can't do everything is actually good for them. I agree with that. I can tell you from firsthand experiences, my dad was a traveling musician. He'd be gone for three weeks at a time, didn't come to my high school graduation, missed my brother's bar mitzvah, but it never bothered me because I understood he's fucking conducting the Vienna Philharmonic. I want to skip my high school graduation. I don't expect you to come to it. It helped me a lot to understand what you got to do to make this work.

Speaker 2 (01:09:26):

I'm sure it was a sacrifice. It is a sacrifice, but the job that we've chosen is you're lucky to do something you love. So it isn't work, but it takes sacrifice and that's it.

Speaker 1 (01:09:38):

Correct. That's a good way to put it. What that's worth. It doesn't take sacrifice besides winning the lottery.

Speaker 2 (01:09:46):

My wife teases me when I go to LA or Nashville for work and I come back. She's like, how was your

Speaker 1 (01:09:50):

Vacation? Yeah, see, that's funny.

Speaker 2 (01:09:52):

She thinks she's working. She's like, well, I have to do everything when you're gone now. So she thinks she's working harder than me and honest to goodness, when I'm in Nashville recording and I get down there a lot, I have a vintage API at the House of Blues Studios, which was bought by Universal Music Group and I love the room and I love going down there and I love just being there. So she teases me. How was your vacation? But it's not a vacation. It's half true though. It is a vacation, but it's work. But I like being, I'm not at home, which means

Speaker 1 (01:10:25):

It's not a vacation in the, you're at a resort on the beach drinking tequila or something. I had an ex-girlfriend who would say that kind of stuff to me too in a joking way. It was not a source of friction because I travel every single month to do nail mix and go to cool places. Like been to Sweden five times in the past two years, always going to LA all over the place. But I mean, dude, when we go to do these, we're not vacationing. We go, if it's an international trip, we take one day to acclimate and then we are right at the studio and filming for four days, get 20 hours of content done and then fly back and that's what we do. That's it.

Speaker 3 (01:11:14):

Wow.

Speaker 1 (01:11:14):

It's not vacation, but it's interesting to me how from the outside it can be perceived that way.

Speaker 2 (01:11:21):

Yeah, I mean she does that tongue in cheek. She joke with me tongue in cheek. I feel like with the quarantine, I had to cancel a trip to la. I was supposed to go out there and I probably would've been to Nashville a couple of times, which I didn't do. I feel like I like it here where I'm at and we're having fun with the family. The quarantine hasn't really changed me that much except it maybe knocked a couple of my trips off the schedule, which I do find pretty refreshing for me. It's nice to be,

(01:11:50):

When I'm at home working, I may need to pause the session to go to the basketball game or something. I mean, that doesn't happen that often. The little kids' seasons don't last that long. My daughter's in swim, my wife does all the practices and the meets and I go to some of them, but not all of them. I know myself well enough. I mean, I hope this doesn't sound terrible and nothing I love more in this world than my children, but I know what I need to be happy and I need to work. And so I don't want to go to all the swim meets and the practices. I don't want to do it. I understand. I love the kids. I want to see them succeed and everything.

Speaker 1 (01:12:32):

It doesn't sound terrible.

Speaker 2 (01:12:33):

I want to be in the studio and so when I do go to the meets or whatever, they're happy that I'm there and I'm glad that they are. It's a big thing for me to show up to something and they appreciate it and I'm glad I love that situation. If I hit the lotto and I didn't want to work anymore, which wouldn't happen, I would be miserable. You'd still do it. I probably wouldn't go to any more meets, like I said before, after a few days. I don't know. You don't choose to be a musician or a producer. It's like,

Speaker 1 (01:13:07):

Yeah, and it's not about the money, man. Winning the lotto will take care of a lot of things, but winning the lotto is not going to turn off that voice in your head.

(01:13:18):

I just watched a really interesting interview with Jerry Seinfeld. Bill Burr was interviewing him and he asked him, how often do you work on jokes? And the answer was 24 7. He was like, so are you working on jokes right now? He's like, yeah, everywhere I am, no matter what I'm doing, I'm trying to make a joke out of it. He's like, even when you're at your kid's soccer game, he's like, yeah, even when you're alone with your wife. Yeah. He's like, she hate you. And his answer was like she knew the deal and he just stood his ground in his own words. He does not stop trying to work on jokes, and that's just who he is. I really do believe that the creative person, this is true for artists, musicians, photographers, producers, film directors, entrepreneurs, whatever. They didn't choose to be that way. It's hardwired what you do with it is not hardwired, obviously in your work ethic is not hardwired, but the need to do this sort of thing is, and that voice that drives us to do this, we didn't choose for it to be there. It is what it is. And if you don't follow it, life gets hard, man. I know that if I'm inactive for too long, I start to get depressed or anxious and my brain goes in weird directions. They're not positive.

(01:14:43):

But the thing is, I'm not doing the work to drown that shit out or anything. I'm doing the work because I love it and I'm driven to do it, but if I'm not doing it, things get negative. So just keep doing it

Speaker 2 (01:14:56):

Right now, if I imagine winning $200 million in the lotto or something,

Speaker 1 (01:15:01):

That would be cool.

Speaker 2 (01:15:02):

I have a certain studio design that I want to build in Nashville and I don't think I would change it. I really like the way it is. I don't want a big studio complex. I've been there, done that with so much gear. I still got more gear than I can use. I had multiple studios in that building and that's why I have the board in Nashville and all the gear here.

Speaker 1 (01:15:22):

Yeah, you're loaded up.

Speaker 2 (01:15:23):

It's crazy here. So I have more gear than I need. I ask myself that question, what would you change? And I don't see myself sitting on a yacht in the Greek islands, although it looks really beautiful and it seems like it would be awesome for

Speaker 1 (01:15:38):

Six hours

Speaker 2 (01:15:40):

Or for a week or two, whatever. But there's something about finishing a track, putting it out, something great about hearing the client say, I love that mix hearing it feeds a certain need that money can never fill. So it's like, what are you, I feel rich in my soul. I feel like there's no money that could buy that feeling of, Hey, I made that song. That song is touching people's lives. It's on the radio, it's out there. It's like that's paying you in something other than money.

Speaker 1 (01:16:17):

I've always thought that money is kind of a measure of the impact in a way. It's a gauge for how much of an impact the thing you did has on other people in some cases because you could be a social worker who helps save people from suicide, and you're not going to see money that's equal to the impact you made. But when it comes to things like music, for instance, and it's not about the money, and also for me, entrepreneurship is not about the money. It never was and it never will be. But like I said, I see it as one metric or one gauge that I can count on because if X amount is coming in, then I can actually say, well, I'm affecting X amount of people, at least in a positive way, but it's not the actual money. And to your point, there are lots of producers, well not lots, but there's a certain number of producers who are fucking rich as shit worth hundreds of millions of dollars and they still make records, right? Rick Rubin never stopped. Dr. Dre didn't stop.

Speaker 2 (01:17:28):

Same could be said for artists that there are guys out there touring that just really don't need the money.

Speaker 1 (01:17:33):

Paul McCarney never stopped writing songs.

Speaker 2 (01:17:36):

Exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:17:36):

Yeah, because that's not what it's about.

Speaker 2 (01:17:38):

Exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:17:39):

Sure. Money is cool.

Speaker 2 (01:17:41):

I would probably buy more guitars. The one thing I would do is buy more, but I've got a lot already. I've got probably over a hundred.

Speaker 1 (01:17:50):

Damn. All right. That's a lot of guitars.

Speaker 2 (01:17:52):

There are probably 30 in the studio right now. See those back there?

Speaker 1 (01:17:56):

I do

Speaker 2 (01:17:57):

Over there.

Speaker 1 (01:17:58):

Alright, so the question is how many more though? What? A hundred more? 50,000 more.

Speaker 2 (01:18:04):

When I first started the studio, I remember a 59 Les Paul was like 30 grand. And I thought, oh my god, that's worth more than the recording board that I had at the time or whatever, the whole studio. And I remember one guy bringing one to the studio and I couldn't believe it. I'm like, that thing's worth 30 grand and you're taking it out. I'd have it in a safe somewhere. And he is like, no, I play it and I play it live. And I was blown away by that whole concept and I thought, well, that's a lot of money. If I ever succeed, I'll buy one of those fast forward 10 years or eight years or whatever, and I have my first big multi-platinum record and I'm getting royalty checks, but then the 59 Les Pauls worth like 150 grand at that point.

Speaker 1 (01:18:45):

Oh god.

Speaker 2 (01:18:46):

And then you start getting multiple clients and more. Then you start getting a stream of multi-platinum clients and a lot of big advances and things are going well. But then Les Pauls are 300 grand.

Speaker 1 (01:19:00):

It's always been proportional to the level of success.

Speaker 2 (01:19:04):

So I should have started my career. I wish I would've had success literally if it was just five years sooner, I would probably have a couple of nice 59 Les Pauls. I was just always a little bit, they were just always a little bit out of reach. I mean, I can't justify spending what would be a deposit on a beautiful home on a guitar. Right? It's, it's a bit much. Obviously if something that I write goes big like an old town road or something like that, if you have one of those giant smashes that goes, I don't know how much a rock number one is not going to pay you a big amount of money as a co-writer, but a pop or a country number one might.

Speaker 1 (01:19:48):

Yeah, that can be a game changer.

Speaker 2 (01:19:49):

So that's my goal. I want to get to that point where I can, I still have goals after all these years. I still want to have achievements.

Speaker 1 (01:19:57):

A lot of people have the idea that once you reach a level of success, that's the destination. But I actually believe that one of the reasons that you'll see super successful people get depressed, kill themselves after they've achieved a bunch of goals is because they just haven't renewed their goals. And so they don't know what's next. They don't know what to do with themselves, and they probably already have an underlying issue, like severe depression. You put those two together that they feel aimless, they achieved everything they wanted to achieve plus an underlying mental condition and bad things happen. But I've always thought that the way to avoid that is to always want more. For me, it's just a natural thing. I've never been happy with any achievement. I've achieved things and then the moment I have them, it's over onto the next thing. What about you? Do you celebrate achievements? And also, what do you want for the future? A lot of people would say that your career is the destination as it is now. They'd be happy with that.

Speaker 2 (01:21:05):

I do have goals, and one of my goals is to have the songwriting career be as respected as the production career. And I feel that that's a realistic goal. And I have been writing a lot, and I think it's just like being a producer. You hit a big one, it changes your outlook

Speaker 1 (01:21:23):

Trajectory.

Speaker 2 (01:21:24):

So that's a goal of mine. Obviously the move to Nashville is a goal, a realistic goal. Once this house sells, we'll make that move, but it's still a goal nevertheless, and building that nice home studio from ground up just the way I want it. But the songwriting part of the job is definitely a goal. What you said about depression when it comes to artists that are successful

Speaker 1 (01:21:51):

Or even businessmen, it happens to successful people.

Speaker 2 (01:21:55):

I always wondered, why is it that these great, talented successful people turn around and commit suicide? And then I started wondering, is it possible that they work so hard to become successful, to become a rockstar, to have everything they dreamed of? And then when they get there, they realize that didn't solve my depression. Correct. I'm still the same. I have wealth. I have a beautiful wife and I've got more money than I can spend and

Speaker 1 (01:22:23):

Everything, but I'm still me,

Speaker 2 (01:22:25):

But I'm still depressed. That didn't fix it. And so that might even be more depressing.

Speaker 1 (01:22:31):

That's what I'm saying.

Speaker 2 (01:22:32):

It's like, holy shit. I just had the biggest album, best Rock album in history. I changed Nirvana, I changed the course of history with my songs and music, the course of rock history and all that success. But you realize, hey, it doesn't fix the underlying problem, the depression. It keeps you busy while you're trying to get there, but when you get there, so yeah, maybe if you have more goals that keeps you busy,

Speaker 1 (01:23:00):

You can stave it off a little longer.

Speaker 2 (01:23:02):

And I don't know, my level of depression, I never really thought too much about it. I think definitely had a rough childhood, dysfunctional childhood for sure, and broken home dysfunction, alcoholism, all those ingredients,

Speaker 1 (01:23:17):

All the good stuff

Speaker 2 (01:23:18):

That make artists out of people. When I just started before success in the music business, just having that outlet of making music, recording writing felt so good.

Speaker 1 (01:23:28):

That's what you needed.

Speaker 2 (01:23:29):

It really did. It just felt like, wow, this feels right. This is doing something really important for my soul, and that's why I need it. I do it. I need to make music. It's good for my souls. It is exactly what I need. And I like having goals. And lately I've been assembling guitars, I've been buying parts and building. I built this Strat out of parts.

Speaker 1 (01:23:58):

Nice. Very nice.

Speaker 2 (01:23:59):

It plays awesome. I think my profession is record producer, songwriter. My hobby is guitars, and they work well together.

Speaker 1 (01:24:09):

They absolutely do work well together. You made me think of something, that whole idea of the rockstar that changes trajectory and then still didn't fix their depression. It's kind of the same thing as when somebody decides to move to a new town thinking that all their problems are going to stay in the old town, but wherever you go, you're still there. So it's still you. Whatever you caused before or whatever your quirks are, they're coming with you. So if you don't deal with them, they're not going to just fix themselves basically.

Speaker 2 (01:24:46):

I would say yes and no, because I remember growing up in my dysfunctional south side Chicago situation, and I remember when I got away from there,

Speaker 1 (01:25:00):

But you didn't create the dysfunctional situation.

Speaker 2 (01:25:03):

It wasn't me. When I got to college and I was away, it was like a weight that was lifted. And then when I went back to Chicago was still there, I felt really pretty depressed after college. And then when I started the music thing, I felt better. But reflecting back, if I had really trusted my emotions and my gut, I probably would've done both the music and get out of town too, both at the same time.

Speaker 1 (01:25:31):

Yeah, I agree with what you're saying, but what I mean is problems that are self-created, like internally cause problems, those are the ones that go with you

Speaker 2 (01:25:40):

If you're the source of the dysfunction. Yeah, it's going

Speaker 1 (01:25:43):

With, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:25:45):

I wasn't the source of it. I was the victim of it.

Speaker 1 (01:25:48):

Yes. That's a totally different scenario. It's external factors that are not in your control that are causing the dysfunction, then leaving that environment is a good move. It's the same way as if you're in a relationship with a toxic person or work with toxic business partners or whatever. It could be that you just need to get away from them. And then as long as you're not the person who causes the problems, should be okay.

Speaker 2 (01:26:14):

Yeah, should be. I might've worked with toxic people in my career, I don't know. But beautiful thing about this is no matter who you are or what your problems are, when you're together in the studio, you're making music together. So I think even the most toxic people or dysfunctional people in the studio, we're sharing a common goal. And it is kind of like those things aren't as much of an issue usually are not an issue they have maybe in a couple instances, but when you're making music together, it's like I think it works. That's why they're making music probably.

Speaker 1 (01:26:49):

Absolutely. I would say more than probably.

Speaker 2 (01:26:52):

Yeah. That's our theme for this podcast is kind of like psychology of music,

Speaker 1 (01:26:56):

Man. To be perfectly honest, if all I was talking about on these podcasts were like, so what's in your vocal chain? How do you set your decapitate? I'd quit. I'd get so bored, I don't care about that shit. Plus it doesn't really matter. Whatever settings you use on something, they're not going to help somebody else because they're a product of a thousand little decisions and the way your brain works that only you understand. And so that doesn't really help anybody. And also, we have an educational platform that does video and actually shows people how to do this stuff. I don't think podcasting is the best medium for teaching people audio. So what I like to do is get inside the head of people that are great at this so that people who are either their peers or coming up can relate to it or learn from their mentality or just hear cool stories about what it's really like to do this.

Speaker 2 (01:27:57):

Right. For those that are coming up overnight, success takes 10 years.

Speaker 1 (01:28:01):

Yes, at least.

Speaker 2 (01:28:03):

So you believe in yourself and you have the talent better give yourself some time.

Speaker 1 (01:28:09):

Absolutely. So speaking of those first 10 years, you've been talking a lot about how music is medicine for your soul, but at the same time you're talking about goals. When you were first getting as a producer, did you have the goals, I'm going to be platinum selling, I want Grammys. Was that, and I don't mean in an abstract way, an actual I want to do this with production.

Speaker 2 (01:28:36):

Well, I guess the first kind of goal I had was I want to produce a band and get an artist, a major label deal. I thought that's, look, I had my little demo studio and I would make a little money, but not a lot of money just basically scraping by. So I thought, well, major label deal. In the early days you would get a cash advance. I mean the artist would get it, but I wanted to get an artist signed and produce their album. And I got to that point where bands I was demoing were getting signed, and I got a couple of them going and it was disturbed who literally fought the label to keep me on as the producer because the label had a lot of other ideas of,

Speaker 1 (01:29:17):

Yeah, they probably had their own cast of characters that they wanted to send them to.

Speaker 2 (01:29:22):

Of course, guys that had already done Platinum Records, guys that not a guy from the neighborhood that did your demos,

Speaker 1 (01:29:28):

That's actually really impressive because as you know very well that it's very typical for an upcoming band to work with their friend who they can afford that's convenient, nearby, get signed, and then not work with that person anymore.

Speaker 2 (01:29:45):

That would be the norm. I would say

Speaker 1 (01:29:47):

That would be the norm, both because the band want to level up, right? So it's not just the labels. The bands probably have a list of producers that are their dream producers and are thinking, as soon as I get signed, I want to work with that guy. Then also the label has to protect their investment, and so they want to go with people that they know can deliver.

Speaker 2 (01:30:09):

The a and r guy has to protect this job. So if the record fails, somebody could always say, well, you let this no-name guy do the record.

Speaker 1 (01:30:16):

Yeah, there's a lot on the line.

Speaker 2 (01:30:18):

Whereas if the record fails and he hired the most well-known producer, he says, well, it wasn't me.

Speaker 1 (01:30:24):

Shit happens.

Speaker 2 (01:30:25):

Right? I got the best producer. We did it in the best studio. We did everything right. So yes, for me to get that opportunity,

Speaker 1 (01:30:32):

How did they win that battle?

Speaker 2 (01:30:33):

Well, I remember Loudmouth, the band that got signed, the song that went to radio was the demo that I did, and I think Disturb was worried. I'm only guessing. I mean, it was never really said, but I think they felt like the Loudmouth demos were better than the Loudmouth album.

Speaker 1 (01:30:50):

Okay,

Speaker 2 (01:30:50):

Sonically.

Speaker 1 (01:30:51):

So they went to somebody else once they got signed?

Speaker 2 (01:30:53):

Yes, loudmouth

Speaker 1 (01:30:54):

Did. Okay. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:30:55):

Well, they went to Cavallo and Buri. I think that Disturbed felt that the demos sounded better. So I was a hardworking guy, had frustrations. I felt like my demos sounded better than most records, and I was frustrated in my career. I'm like, label people must be deaf or stupid because they should be hiring me. My demos sound better than the stupid albums they're putting out. Well, disturbed felt that too, I believe at that time, and they were willing to fight for that.

Speaker 1 (01:31:24):

David doesn't seem like someone who would fight for something he didn't believe in.

Speaker 2 (01:31:29):

I can't say enough good things about those guys, the fact that they just have that extra something. They want to do things their way, but I think they've evaluated their decisions wisely, and I think they felt okay, we don't want to spend all this money on our record and then not be pleased with it. We're already pleased with what we have. And I think that was their logic. If I were to guess, I remember the label flying me out to LA and I sat down with the general manager, the president of a and r and the VP of a and R that signed band, and the entire band in the general manager's office

Speaker 1 (01:32:02):

Were they like, don't fuck this up

Speaker 2 (01:32:04):

No good. They made me sit in the lobby for a while and then the a r guy came out and said, okay, they're ready for you. And I walked into and everybody was sitting around the room and they kind of plucked me

Speaker 1 (01:32:15):

Down, conference room style.

Speaker 2 (01:32:18):

It was an office, but, and they sat me down and they weren't like, Hey, hi, nice to meet you or anything. I literally sat down and the first question was, so in the bridge of such and such a song, what are you going to do? And I got a little bit flush. I remember my heart rate went up a little bit and I was like, damn, they're straight trying to put me on the spot right now.

Speaker 1 (01:32:39):

Yes,

Speaker 2 (01:32:40):

I think the attempt was to try to expose any weaknesses that I might have to use it as logic to get what they wanted, which was a name producer on the project.

Speaker 1 (01:32:48):

Fair enough too, right?

Speaker 2 (01:32:50):

I mean, on the flight out there, I was just kind of like, it's a long flight. I was like, well, might as well use this time. So I put on the headphones and I went through all the demos before that meeting. They made me record not just the songs that they had, but they wanted to hear the rest of the record. So I just recorded the band live and sent it to 'em, and obviously they had sent it to another producer because they were probably sending those demos to producers and getting notes and stuff. So they had very duy questions for me. I didn't have an answer right away, but I remember on the plane going through the songs and making notes, and I was so flustered by the obvious kind of, I felt like I was being set up,

Speaker 1 (01:33:30):

Probably were.

Speaker 2 (01:33:32):

I said, wait, hold on. And I reached into my backpack and I pulled out a notebook just on the plane. I had written notes for all of the song structures and all the different things, and I kind of wrote out intro verse chorus, pre-course chorus, and in the margin on the notebook paper, I would write like bridge. It's eight bars before anything happens, cut the first four out and get to the cool riff sooner. I had made notes for everything, all the parts of the songs, transition first, chorus needs to hit harder ending goes too long. Finish it on the chorus riff instead of going into another riff so that you are left with that. Just different thoughts and ideas. So flipped open to that song, and sure enough, I didn't remember even writing it, but sure enough, I had something in the notes and I'm like, oh yeah, in this part I wanted to do this, this and this. And I remember he's like, well, then what about this part? And he went to another song. And so I flipped my notebook open and I literally had notes for everything that they asked me and I could see them. I think they were getting frustrated and the meeting ended abruptly after that, it was over.

Speaker 1 (01:34:35):

I was like, fine, fuck it. We're going with this guy.

Speaker 2 (01:34:37):

So I remember walking out into the lobby and I was like, whoa. I remember thinking, whoa. And I remember the president of Aire coming up and saying to me, you think you're some kind of hotshot, don't you quote? And I'm like, what do you mean? Just no, just doing my job. And then I remember a couple weeks into the project, they called me up and the a r guy called me up was like, if we don't hear rough mixes tomorrow. So my deal was three songs that I had to prove myself on three songs first before I got the whole album.

(01:35:09):

So they didn't pay me the advance. I got no money from the label. They just didn't pay any studio or production events, nothing. And they called me a couple weeks into the project, we were back in Chicago, and basically the conversation went something like this. As I remember it, they're like, Johnny? I'm like, yeah, how's it going? If we don't hear demos by tomorrow, we're pulling the project or roughs. And my exact answer in the exact tone, I said, have you ever heard of a thing called pre-production? And it was just dead silence. And I'm like, well, we're doing that so there's no rough mixes tomorrow. And I mentioned to the band, I'm like, they're talking about pulling the project and the band's like, we're not going anywhere. Fuck them. So we worked really hard in pre-production. We worked on the performances, we worked with the click track. This was on tape. That first record was on tape. There was no pro tools, there was no nothing. We had to be good. So it was practicing the songs, it was recording, demoing, just working on the structures, the arrangements, trying different things. So it got to the point where they hadn't paid me in advance. They hadn't paid the studio invoices, nothing.

Speaker 1 (01:36:19):

How much time had elapsed

Speaker 2 (01:36:20):

Over a month and the studio rent wasn't paid. I had the last notice on the electric at the studio. And see, the thing is before the major label job that I was so lucky to get, bands would come to the studio and pay and I would scrape a living, I'd pay my bills barely and I'd get by, but now I wasn't getting paid at all. So I think you get two months before they shut your electric off. So it had been two months since I paid my electric bill. They got signed and then we got ready and I literally went and financed double the amount of gear that I had. I figured I was getting paid, I was getting in advance, I was getting studio bookings. There was no money. So I told the guys in the band, I'm like, the electric's going off literally tomorrow. Nothing's been paid. The label has. I told them, I'm like, your label hasn't paid the studio invoices. I haven't gotten in advance anything. Nothing. So the band out of their advance cut me a check. So not only did they go to bat for me, they actually kept the lights on at the studio.

Speaker 1 (01:37:18):

That's really cool. Literally, if that's not a mark of confidence, I don't know what is

Speaker 2 (01:37:23):

As a loan. They said, we'll loan you the money until you get your advance. And we worked so hard on that first record and they were really pleased with the way it came out. And I'll never forget at the end of that project, they're like, keep the loan.

Speaker 1 (01:37:36):

That's really cool.

Speaker 2 (01:37:37):

You're not going to come across that caliber of people too often in this business. I mean, labels can be very manipulative. They can convince the band that they need to go with their producer for a lot of reasons. But usually those reasons are basically just job protection. It's insurance. We got this name guy, so if it fails, it wasn't our fault. I think usually that's more the logic because I was convinced before Disturb got signed that nobody had any ears that they weren't listening. Nobody could tell the difference between a good sounding record and a crappy sounding record, which was the whole reason I thought I could be a record producer, is that I thought I could hear the difference between what sounds good and what doesn't.

Speaker 1 (01:38:17):

That is the job, isn't it? Having good taste.

Speaker 2 (01:38:20):

And I was pretty sure that they weren't listening.

Speaker 1 (01:38:23):

You know what? I actually do think that you're probably right. I have worked with ARS that I'm convinced, have never listened to the records I've submitted to them, convince there's no way they listened to it, just didn't give a fuck. They just wanted to put something out,

Speaker 2 (01:38:41):

Right? So it's an easy job if you're like, okay, well, which producer had the biggest sales this year? Let's hire him. So I did get hired a lot after Disturbed Record blew up, but I was the same producer before that too. The day before I produced a disturbed record, I was as good a producer as the day I ended the label put us under a lot of stress. I was so focused on making a good record. I would've preferred to not have the stress. It didn't help. I don't think it hurt, but it certainly didn't help. It just made me lose some sleep.

Speaker 1 (01:39:13):

This is the perfect example of luck equals Preparation plus opportunity. I mean, this is the poster child story for that. Saying that story with the Notebook is incredible. It makes me think about when I'm going into a meeting with somebody and I know that there's something that I need to convince them of that they're probably not going to want to disagree with right away, a big ask, or I have an outlandish idea that I know that people aren't going to go along with me. I write down every single thing that I think that they're going to object to, and I come up with a solid answer, which is, I mean, we're not talking about producing a song, but same idea that I will put myself in their head and try to think about why they would shoot it down and try to be bulletproof. And I'll write it all down. I like to make huge documents of every possible scenario, and I will study this shit and then have the call.

Speaker 2 (01:40:16):

Yeah,

Speaker 1 (01:40:16):

Tends to work out.

Speaker 2 (01:40:17):

I definitely think trying to be prepared is valuable. And when you're busy, sometimes it's hard to be prepared too. Sometimes you have to listen to a record and try to make notes, but you're in the middle of a project for your next project. It can be difficult. But I always try to be prepared and look, I've been in the opposite situation where I was really prepared and my experience was with Disturbed, being prepared was a game changer for me. I was meeting a band called Finger 11, and I got very prepared with all their demos and the label flew me up to Toronto to meet them, put me in a nice hotel. We went out to a fancy steakhouse. That was the good old days. And I met the band and I was telling them about the ideas I had, and that nearly cost me the job.

(01:41:02):

The band went back to the label and said, no way are we working with this guy. So this is the opposite scenario where the label wanted me because I was the guy that did Disturbed and had the big records and the band was afraid I was going to change them too much. So they said no. And the label's like, well, there's a movie coming up and he's available now, so go get the one song done for the movie soundtrack and then we'll talk about it. So I had notes like I do for all the songs, and I kind of got that feedback from my manager at the time. They were like, yeah, they think you're going to change 'em too much. So I remember going to the swing house in LA and we had set up to do pre-production there. I had gotten the feedback that they were worried I was going to change 'em, which I felt they needed to change to be successful.

(01:41:52):

They needed to change some of the things they were doing structurally with the songs because the songs weren't coming across. So I thought, okay, how am I going to do this with these guys? So I said, I think it was something on the song we're working with. It was just how they went from the pre-course into the chorus. I think I told them, take the second and third bar out of the pre-course and just go first bar, fourth bar into the chorus or something. But I knew in my mind, I knew it was going to be really better. The chorus was going to hit better, and they kind of scrunched up their noses and looked at each other and then kind of shrugged their shoulders and said, okay, we'll try it. And literally they nailed it on the first try, I picked something that I knew was obvious that was going to work that they would like, and that was clearly going to make the song feel better.

Speaker 1 (01:42:38):

Wait, wait. So preparation did work

Speaker 2 (01:42:41):

Well in the meeting. It didn't, but the label forced us to do the song. So then literally, I remember them smiling after at One take through, and it felt good. And I remember them looking at each other and smiling, and then they literally put down their instruments and walked over to me and said, what else you got in that notebook? And I got the job then and broke the band. And then Finger 11 had that song, one thing, which was a big hit. And then I got the next record after that, which the big hit was Paralyzer. And it was good for them that they allowed me to produce them to work with them. It was a career changer for them. And I had to strategize because they were the kind of band that if a producer was going to get too involved, they wouldn't want

Speaker 1 (01:43:27):

'em. In cases like that where something has to change, it's not subjective, this has to change, but the band is not very agreeable in nature. Is it about picking your battles? Basically?

Speaker 2 (01:43:44):

People have different levels of stubbornness. So I'm usually trying to figure out, some people need to be bulldozed. There was a certain artist that whenever I tried to challenge him on his parts, he would just double down and fight harder. So I was like, all right, well that's not working.

Speaker 1 (01:43:58):

How do you deal with that?

Speaker 2 (01:43:59):

So I would just step back and I would say, look, the reason I want to change this part because I feel like it could be better. So just think about it when you go home tonight. So I would get off if I never drag a fight out or a disagreement out in the studio, never. It's not productive if somebody's wanting to fight about it. I'm just like, look, here's the reason. So tonight when you get home, I want you to think about it, don't dismiss it, because I'm pretty confident it could be better. So you run over ideas in your mind tonight. So I won't fight. I'll use logic and I'll be like, just don't discount what I'm saying. Give it an honest try or whatever, and then I'll get off it and that's it. The most stubborn guys seem to respond well to that kind of approach.

(01:44:41):

Then some guys will lean on you too, and they want you to do everything like, Johnny, what about this part? What about that part? And I could just say, do this, do that, and they'll do it. But there are times when I don't do that. I have my idea. I give 'em deliberately vague directions to force them to do it because they are the artist. And really that's what I'm trying to get at, what they have to say or how they want to do it, not what I want. It's not my record and it's not me. And the fans aren't buying into me as much as they're buying into the band and really what's honest. So I've had really good results, just kind of deflecting it back to the artist. And there are times when the artist really misses the mark and then I'll be like, okay, let's do this. And then they're like, oh yeah, I love that. And that's fine, but I save that till the end. Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (01:45:31):

Absolutely. So I guess knowing exactly who you're working with is key here.

Speaker 2 (01:45:37):

Well, you don't know right when you start, you just don't know. You need to pay close attention and figure it

Speaker 1 (01:45:42):

Out. How long does that usually take you?

Speaker 2 (01:45:45):

Sometimes it changes even. You just always pay attention. It could change from day to day. It could change from album to album. Disturbed guys were different. On the second album, they had a multi-platinum album, and they were these hungry guys from the south side from my neighborhood that were trying to make it. And then all of a sudden they went from a local band to playing Oz Fest and stuff, and they came back and they were feeling awesome. And the dynamic was different. It was different. It wasn't me being the Studio Authority now. They were the big rock stars. My life was pretty much the same. I mean, I was recording bigger bands and stuff, but I was still the guy sitting in the studio in the same place. They had been over the whole world and sold millions of records. Their life changed more dramatically than mine. The point is, I do what I do, but I had to approach them a little differently just because their headspace was different. Same people, different Headspace. I think that would go throughout the course of your career. I started studying different albums throughout band's careers, first album, fifth album. I was curious to see how they evolved and how different bands careers evolved and use that as

Speaker 1 (01:46:51):

What kinds of things do you mean? Like song structures or how experimental they are?

Speaker 2 (01:46:57):

Sure. How much do you change? And what's interesting is that certain bands, it's different for genres. I learned or I observe that metal bands, the hard rock bands, the fan base kind of wants you to stay in that lane. They don't want too much change.

Speaker 1 (01:47:13):

Yeah, they want you to be Slayer

Speaker 2 (01:47:15):

On that Megadeath record. The second one we did, Dave had some different song ideas and I liked it. I encouraged it. I know very well that I could very easily have said to Dave, no, dude, the Metalheads are going to go nuts if you try to do this and that. But I genuinely loved some of the songs. I made a decision to encourage that and to follow that and to try to do the best we could do with that. And of course, make sure that we included a few rippers on the record too. That supercharger record was the second one I did with them. That record was, it had a song called The Blackest Crow on there, which it was like a ganjo on there. It had a banjo track. It's very different. But I love that song. I think it's awesome. And people that weren't metalheads that heard the record, I got calls from musician friends of mine and other genres are like, I love that song. What a cool record. But the Metalheads, the metal websites and stuff bashed it,

Speaker 1 (01:48:08):

Of course.

Speaker 2 (01:48:08):

But I like it.

Speaker 1 (01:48:09):

And I guess Mega Death too are in a spot where it's not like that would tank their career.

Speaker 2 (01:48:14):

No, I still like that record. I like that better than the one we did before. I think it's awesome that Dave wanted to try some different things. And Ellison, I recall him saying, we need the heavy, he was concerned. He knows the fan base, and he's like, we definitely need some rippers. But where'd you

Speaker 1 (01:48:32):

Draw the line?

Speaker 2 (01:48:32):

I don't draw the line. It's cool that artists want to try different things and stretch out and experiment, and it's like, I think the Metalheads need to, I mean, look, I'm not going to change the fan base. I'm not on any crusade to do that either. I don't care. I just think, why does everything have to be the same? It's boring. It's like, do you eat the same thing every day and go do the same stuff? It's like,

Speaker 1 (01:48:55):

What's funny, man is metal fans then will also rail on bands for staying the same too much, so stay the same, too much. You're going to get railed change too much. You're going to get railed.

Speaker 2 (01:49:06):

How do you fit the same in your set list? How are you going to fit if you do the same old kind of songs? Then what songs do you take out? What songs do you put in the set's going to be boring? I'd love that. The fact that the blackest crow was on that record and that if you threw that in a set, it would definitely make, to me, the concert more fun. It's dynamic. It gives you something else, a different texture, a different flow. Even in the live scenario when you have so many hits already that people are expecting to hear. Say if you write another, just for instance, you've got Symphony of Destruction, what if you write another song that's like that? Well, the fact is fans don't want to hear the other song. They want to hear Symphony of Destruction, so why do another one that's the same?

Speaker 1 (01:49:48):

It already exists.

Speaker 2 (01:49:49):

You're better off to take a chance to do something different. The logic is sound. In my opinion. You're better off to try a band that like Megadeath has 15 albums out, or at the time I was working with, they had a dozen albums out. You're better off to try to do something different to try to get something that will actually make the set list. How many songs can you play off an album? Some albums might not have any songs in the set list. If you're playing a two hour set, you're playing one or two songs off each album.

Speaker 1 (01:50:17):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (01:50:17):

So I'm right and I'll say, I'm right. The critics are wrong. I did the right thing on that record by encouraging. Although the metal websites will bash it.

Speaker 1 (01:50:27):

I wouldn't worry about them. I think that that's a very interesting goal, which is obviously different than a first time band, but let's try to make a record that's going to have a song that makes the set list that's very unique to a situation like that. Right?

Speaker 2 (01:50:43):

Well, you have to consider that. I mean, I consider that specifically when doing stained record. I mean, look at all the hits they have in their set Three doors down stained. You have to do that. You have to be well aware of the set list. If you're the producer, if you're not, how are you going to make those decisions? How are you going to help them make decisions? You have to be educated. You have to know the set lists. You have to know how they flow in Mega Desk's case you're making, let's just say they have 150 songs out already, right?

Speaker 1 (01:51:13):

Yeah, probably.

Speaker 2 (01:51:15):

And the set list has 20 of them. You need one that doesn't sound exactly like the other ones. You have to look at the dynamic. Believe me, it's a good exercise as a producer to be well aware of that and to know where, Hey, this song is really awesome. Let's pursue this. This could be an opener. You could listen to the openers, the closers. Those are easy decisions, but middle of the set, how's it going to finish? Consider Stain Outside and it's been a while. You want another song like that on the record? I love the last stained record that we did because it was all heavy. They had, it's been a while outside some other songs. So we did a heavy record and when they came back out of hiatus and they played louder than Life this last summer, they played a lot of those heavy songs off the new record. It just felt good in the set.

Speaker 1 (01:52:02):

So in the Mega death example, for instance, did you listen to all 15? Well, all 12 albums and get to know them

Speaker 2 (01:52:10):

Well, the quicker, more time efficient ways to listen to look at the set list.

Speaker 1 (01:52:15):

Look at the set list. Okay. So yeah, that makes sense.

Speaker 2 (01:52:18):

Assuming and some of the albums I know better than others, but I did go through certainly listening to the previous couple of albums to see where the trajectory is. Listening to the set list, definitely doing homework. The truth is I didn't have time to go through all of the albums front to back.

Speaker 1 (01:52:36):

Yeah, that's a lot of listening.

Speaker 2 (01:52:40):

I was making other albums working 12 hours a day, one after the next. So you have to do your homework, but you have to do it wise.

Speaker 1 (01:52:48):

Yeah. I mean, if you're looking at the set list, you're looking at which songs over the course of a 30 year career have made the most impact,

Speaker 2 (01:52:56):

And which songs are not coming out of the set list ever because the fans will go crazy. So you know that. Once you know that, then it's up to you as a producer to decide, well, okay, you listen to the songs that they want to record, the demos, and then you say, this song could be an awesome opener. This song could be a nice breath of fresh air in the middle. Then you start to think about where you're at. This song is like that song, but it's not as good, so let's not worry about that one. Right.

Speaker 1 (01:53:26):

That's actually a complaint that people have about veteran bands is that they start to sound like a parody of themselves or a cover band of themselves.

Speaker 2 (01:53:35):

So let's circle back to the supercharge album with the critics obviously miss the whole point of it, but that's why they're critics. That's why they're not Grammy nominated producers. There's a difference. You know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (01:53:48):

I do.

Speaker 2 (01:53:48):

I proudly stand behind that record. I love that record, and the critics should listen back again and say, Hey, maybe there is some wisdom that we missed.

Speaker 1 (01:53:58):

Yeah. I think that some of them are thinking, oh, if it's not Holy Wars or Symphony Destruction, I don't care. But they're not the fans.

Speaker 2 (01:54:06):

It can't be those, because like you said, those songs are in the set.

Speaker 1 (01:54:10):

They exist.

Speaker 2 (01:54:11):

Right.

Speaker 1 (01:54:11):

You're not going to top 'em

Speaker 2 (01:54:13):

Well and they have to be there. You can't take 'em out. So it's interesting. I like the Veteran band challenge. I love working with those kind of artists. I think it's awesome because it's a different challenge. Talk about having goals, and I love new artists too. I love that challenge. I do approach artists differently depending on who they are and where they are in their career and what they need.

Speaker 1 (01:54:36):

Sounds like you're always thinking of what you can do to help their career rather than just, my job is to make this sound great, which obviously that's part of the job, but you're thinking in a grander sense, how can I help this artist's career level up continue?

Speaker 2 (01:54:56):

I felt like in the year 1999 when Disturbed got signed, the record came out in March of 2000. I felt like I had already made that achievement in my career, how to make a record sound great. I knew how to do that 20 years ago, so I've had 20 years of figuring out all these other little fine details and also using that career and those successes, applying that to the new artists and trying to be smart. Not, like I said, I've had a lot of success. Artists will lean on me, but I want to know what from them. So sometimes I could answer all the questions and get it done, but I try to lie back and it's a very fine balance. But I try. I definitely think about where the artist is in their career. The first record I think has to, I studied first albums too. I love them and how bands introduce themselves, how bands break. I think that's great, and I love the challenge of trying to break an artist.

Speaker 1 (01:55:53):

When you're dealing with a baby band, do you do the same kind of research off of their demos and stuff, or maybe the indie records they put out? That might sound poopy.

Speaker 2 (01:56:03):

Yeah. I really don't ever concern myself with the sound. I just assume they were done. But there's times when you come across some cool sounds too that definitely use every resource available, whether it's a demo or whatever have you. The more I think the better your decision making and your guidance will be.

Speaker 1 (01:56:24):

I think that's very, very wise. Well, I don't want to take up all of your day. I think this is a good place to end the podcast.

Speaker 2 (01:56:31):

Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:56:32):

It's been excellent talking to you.

Speaker 2 (01:56:33):

Hey, thanks for having me on and doing this. This has been a lot of fun.

Speaker 1 (01:56:37):

Yeah, I very much appreciate it. Thank you very much. Okay. Then another URM podcast episode in the bag. Please remember to share our episodes with your friends, as well as post them to your Facebook, Instagram, or any social media you use. Please tag me at AAL Levi URM audio, and of course, please tag my guests as well. Till next time, happy mixing. You've been listening to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast. To ask us questions, make suggestions and interact, visit URM Academy and press the podcast link today.