Joseph McQueen & Josh Gilbert: Producing As I Lay Dying, overcoming imposter syndrome, and building a career

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast. And now your host, Eyal Levi. Welcome to the URM podcast. I am Eyal Levi, and I just want to tell you that this show is brought to you by URM Academy, the world's best education for rock and metal producers. Every month on Nail the Mix, we bring you one of the world's best producers to mix a song from scratch, from artists like Lama God Shuga, periphery A Day To Remember. Bring me the Horizon, Opeth many, many more, and we give you the raw multi-track so you can mix along. You'll also get access to Mix Lab, our collection of bite-sized mixing tutorials and Portfolio Builder, which are pro quality multitracks that are cleared for use in your portfolio. You can find out [email protected]. So Joseph McQueen and Josh Gilbert, welcome to the podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:00:47):

Thank you.

Speaker 1 (00:00:47):

Thanks for being here.

Speaker 2 (00:00:48):

Hey, how's it going? No problem.

Speaker 1 (00:00:49):

It's going good. I'm glad that we caught up. This is very interesting to me because first of all, Josh, I had no idea you were even in URM and Joseph. I feel like I'm going to just be really, really honest here. I hadn't heard of you until you came up in our group, but then when I heard your work, I was like, why don't I know who this dude is? And I started researching it and was like, wow, he's done a lot of stuff. I'm glad I got introduced to you and

Speaker 2 (00:01:27):

Oh yeah, that's great.

Speaker 1 (00:01:28):

Yeah, and it was just, the whole thing was just kind of a pleasant surprise I think. I don't normally hear about people that much anymore. I feel like due to what I do, I kind of hear about people on my own before most people would, and you just kind of flew under my radar and now I feel like a bit of an asshole about it, but I love your work,

Speaker 2 (00:01:57):

I appreciate

Speaker 1 (00:01:58):

It and I love your guys' work together. And so if I'm understanding this correctly, you guys actually go back a long way?

Speaker 2 (00:02:04):

Oh yeah, yeah, super long way. We've actually been friends since around 2004, back when we were both just doing the whole local band thing in Birmingham, Alabama, and we just kind of started clicking really early on and joined a metal band, or we started a metal band together with a few of the other powerhouse dudes, I guess, around the area.

Speaker 3 (00:02:30):

Yeah, I think the reason me and Joseph clicked so well is because we recognized each other as sort of the only other dudes who actually took it super seriously in the area that cared about gear. Yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:02:42):

That whole attract kind of thing.

Speaker 2 (00:02:44):

Right. And we both kind of had the producer mentality already before we even knew that's what we wanted to do in a band, if that makes any sense. We were less on the creative side and more kind of trying to oversee everything and that whole deal,

Speaker 1 (00:02:59):

Man, those days, 2004 days, that's when my band was a local band in Atlanta, and I know that Atlanta is more of a, I guess, cosmopolitan city than the ones you find in Alabama.

Speaker 4 (00:03:15):

Definitely.

Speaker 1 (00:03:17):

But Atlanta, even Atlanta back then was a bit of a wasteland, and so I always felt like when I found people that I felt like were serious, I clung onto them really, really hard. It was so easy to spot. I imagine that it was like diamond in the rough status out in Birmingham.

Speaker 2 (00:03:42):

Well, we actually had a pretty strong circle of friends, but yeah, I mean within that it was very clear who the ones that we wanted to team up with, they kind of stood out from the pack.

Speaker 1 (00:03:56):

So did you guys ever foreshadow that it would be a decade and a half later and you'd be partners?

Speaker 3 (00:04:02):

Not at all. No,

Speaker 2 (00:04:04):

Definitely not

Speaker 3 (00:04:04):

At that point. I think the main goal was just let's rent a VFW hall and put on a show this weekend and try to sound like the best band there out of our five friends bands that were going to be on the show.

Speaker 2 (00:04:18):

Got it. Totally different aspirations at that time.

Speaker 1 (00:04:21):

Josh, when you joined as dying, was that the destruction of the band you guys had together and your working relationship up to that point? What happened then?

Speaker 3 (00:04:36):

Not exactly. What had kind of happened at that point is Joseph and I had been there for the rise and fall of several of our bands and we would be the last two members still dedicated, and we were out slinging pizzas to be able to afford to buy guitar strings and go play shows in a smoothie shop parking lot that we used to play at all the time or wherever, places holding the walls that you can find. And at that point, it was one of the downtimes where a couple of the guys in our band, they'd either gone off to college or their girlfriend had told 'em they needed to spend more time on school or whatever. I don't know, but it was one of those off times and the way that it actually came together was that the band that we had last been working on had sent a demo to Tim who was doing an imprint under metal blade at the time, and that demo was actually one of the first things we recorded. So even as far back as that, Joseph was kind of instrumental in recording our band, recording me, and ultimately recording my tryout for Esle dying.

Speaker 1 (00:05:43):

I see. So when you got the gig, was it just like High five? One of us made it out, I'll make it out next.

Speaker 2 (00:05:50):

Yeah, totally. I mean, it was obviously bittersweet for me because he was my best friend and he was instantly moving across the country, but it was so awesome at the same time that I just didn't care. And at that point I had already kind of transitioned away from wanting to be in a band. I was way more into the production side of things, which I honestly had no idea I was going to like so much. I only got into it because there were so few people in the area that recorded that we felt could do it. Right. In fact, Josh was reminding me today, actually, one of our bands was we were going to play, were going to go record with Jamie King, the guy who did it all between the Bmy Records back then. Yeah. And so we

Speaker 1 (00:06:34):

In Carolina.

Speaker 2 (00:06:35):

Yeah, exactly. And so we were all saving up as a band and everybody in the band had to save up $700 and me and Josh were the only ones that actually saved up our portion. And so when no one else did that, it just kind of fell apart and we were just like, you know what? Let's just figure this out on our own. That's

Speaker 1 (00:06:51):

Really, really interesting to me that because I feel like that was the situation for me in lots of bands growing up where we decided something that I figured out we should do, and then I'd save up the money somehow, and I realized everyone had different means, but still I saved up the money other people, and I feel like I should have just dropped the projects right then and there because such a great sign of what's to come. Exactly. Because $700 seems like a lot to a kid, but it's not that much if you spread it out over time. I remember reading an interview with Maynard from Tool a long time ago, I think in 1998, where he was talking about advice that he gives people, and his advice was, sell your VCR, don't go to Starbucks, all the little things that you're spending $10 here, $30 there on. Just don't do those things anymore and put them into what your priority is and make your art your priority and you treat it the most important thing. It will become the most important thing. Absolutely. So

Speaker 3 (00:08:11):

True. Yeah, I mean back then it really was, we would just wake up every day, work on the songs all day, work on the recording, whatever cool edit pro or cake walk recording we were working on at the time, literally until we went to bed at five in the morning and wake up at 1:00 PM the next day and do the same thing again and eat fast food. But it's like that kind of drive I think that me and Joseph saw in each other is what carried over to when things started happening for Joseph producing bands and I was touring a lot. It made sense for us as I got more into recording as well to kind of team up and use our strengths together.

Speaker 1 (00:08:48):

How many years later though?

Speaker 3 (00:08:50):

Probably about three years, two to three years after that.

Speaker 2 (00:08:54):

Yeah, I think it was actually, I think when we had the original idea, it was when I came out to work with you guys on an album. I think it was The Powerless Rise,

Speaker 3 (00:09:03):

Right, right.

Speaker 2 (00:09:05):

I at that point had, I guess my thing, I don't know, had just been doing vocals really well. That was kind of my main focus, and me and Josh had that chemistry already, and so the rest of the band was cool if I came out and did all of Josh's clean vocals. So I came out and recorded all of that for the Powerless Rise, and it was kind of during that whole process that me and Josh had the idea maybe we should team up and do it for real.

Speaker 3 (00:09:29):

At that point, I had some means to buy some gear, and I think at that point I was 21 years old, 22 years old around that time, and so I was just like, I don't know, anxious to, I don't know, do something outside of just the band. We had so much off time around then six months a year that we weren't on the road. I wanted to be busy doing something, so doing something like a studio seemed like a great idea.

Speaker 1 (00:09:53):

It's interesting to me, I don't want to say really close friends, but I was in pretty constant contact back then with Nick especially, and Tim every now and again. And I just remember that there was a lot of recording talent in the band, but I never heard about you recording, so that was another reason for why it was really interesting to me that this is happening now. I had no idea that you were also doing the recording thing.

Speaker 3 (00:10:25):

Yeah, well, for me, like I said, it started out as more of a, I wanted an easy way to record stuff for myself, and Joseph had all this talent doing it and that he had kind of honed while I was out touring for the first few years I was in the band. And once we started working together, he kind of taught me the ways, and then especially around 2013 where we were forced to take a bit of a break, that's when I was able to really buckle down when we started doing woven war and I was doing a lot of the demos myself and Joseph had taught me how to autotune vocals and how to just track proficiently. And I think that around 2013 is where I really started making those connections and recording myself more often.

Speaker 1 (00:11:10):

I want to talk about that for a second because I think that it kind of circles back to the drive aspect you guys were talking about from the early days. I think that that 2013 era you guys had the force break. I think a lot of people might have gotten really depressed and stopped moving forward, but it kind of says a lot that you buckled down and really refined a new skill rather than get stopped in your tracks. And that it kind of goes back to that drive that I feel like you guys saw in each other that you guys had a goal, for instance, to record with Jamie King and only you guys came up with the money. And so that goal's out the window, and I feel like some people would've stopped right there, that goal, that dream would've been out the window and that's that onto the next thing. But obviously it was not the end for you guys and you kept going. And same with 2013, could have definitely gone down a negative path instead started this other career, which I think is super admirable, but just goes to show that drive that drive's got to be there no matter what's going on in your life.

Speaker 2 (00:12:29):

For sure. And I think it also helps, I think that's another thing that makes it so beneficial with me and him working together is that at that time, it was right when we had just moved, well, he's been out, he had been out in California, but I had just relocated from Alabama to la, which he convinced me to do. And 2013 was my first year here. And so after the force break, I mean I was here, we were just getting our studio started. I had just started working part-time with Atlantic Records, just doing writing sessions and all that kind of stuff. So we kind of had no choice but to just go full throttle into the studio at that point. And I think that we helped each other with that drive, like you were saying before,

Speaker 3 (00:13:14):

Before I really, I guess had the talent to man the helm myself. I was just really trying to tell people about Joseph and how talented he was and that he had tracked me on the Asle dying records and stuff like that. And it was definitely a slow build, but I think just the combination of having some extra time off and being able to be in a town where there was some things going, more things going on, I guess than Birmingham helped a lot. So yeah, man. And I also wanted to clarify to the listeners that our product, when we decided to record ourselves instead of going with Jamie King, definitely was not better than what we would've gotten had we recorded with Jamie King. I just had to point that out because I feel like we kind of phrased that as if we had an equal product the first

Speaker 1 (00:14:00):

Time. Oh, Jamie's great. We're good friends with him. So yeah, if he's listening, I hope you didn't take that the wrong way.

Speaker 3 (00:14:06):

And I also,

Speaker 1 (00:14:07):

We love you, Jamie.

Speaker 3 (00:14:08):

I hope he doesn't take it personally that we canceled a $3,500 project either.

Speaker 1 (00:14:14):

I think he got past it.

Speaker 3 (00:14:15):

I think so. Yeah, eventually pretty good for him. Eventually

Speaker 1 (00:14:19):

It would be rough if he didn't. So you moved to LA from Alabama, but you already had stuff going on,

Speaker 2 (00:14:28):

Obviously. Oh yeah. A lot.

Speaker 1 (00:14:30):

You had worked with Brian Hood, right?

Speaker 2 (00:14:32):

We were competitors.

Speaker 1 (00:14:34):

Competitors,

Speaker 2 (00:14:34):

Yeah. We were kind of the only, it sounds arrogant to say, but kind of the only real legit studios to record in Alabama

Speaker 3 (00:14:44):

For metal and stuff

Speaker 2 (00:14:45):

At that point for that genre. I don't want to put other people out, but yeah, I mean we were definitely competing against each other, and he actually started a good bit after I did. So there was the whole, and he kind of rose up a lot quicker than I did, so there was a lot of somewhat heated back and forth, that whole thing, but

Speaker 1 (00:15:05):

That's good though. It makes you better.

Speaker 2 (00:15:07):

I completely agree, and I think we both agreed.

Speaker 1 (00:15:10):

I think I actually had lunch with him a few weeks ago, and every time I see him I'm like, man, this dude is really

Speaker 2 (00:15:16):

Smart. Oh, he is. Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (00:15:18):

Every time I've been around him, that's always my impression. And there were times where I felt like he was a URM competitor and times where I've been like, no, I don't consider him a competitor. He does his own thing and it's always been like this back and forth, but I've always maintained that he is just one sharp motherfucker.

Speaker 3 (00:15:41):

Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (00:15:43):

Him existing makes me better. I feel like

Speaker 3 (00:15:47):

For sure.

Speaker 1 (00:15:48):

I know that he's going to come up with some really good idea.

Speaker 3 (00:15:51):

Oh yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:15:52):

Absolutely.

Speaker 3 (00:15:52):

Yeah. From my perspective, I kind of identify naturally more with the creative side, so hearing someone kind of kick my ass with some business knowledge on a podcast really helps me out. And I think Joseph out as well. We both listen to his podcast and it's definitely helpful.

Speaker 2 (00:16:07):

Totally agree. That's always been a thing for me. It's like I kind of get tunnel vision with the process, with the creative process and all of that so that I don't always think he does about the business side of things. So it's been very helpful to listen to that. It's motivating for sure.

Speaker 1 (00:16:22):

Again, like I said, I really think the dude has a great brain and he's taken, I feel like what he's done is he's taken some pretty sound or very sound practices that work. Some of them are kind of normal in the real world, but in our world, they're not normal at all. For sure. You need to learn them from someplace else. And so I find that musicians and producers who just learn this kind of stuff, whether they get it from him or from reading on their own, it, it's transformative because being able to actually run your stuff a serious business is the difference between losing your ass in hard times or thriving, I think.

Speaker 2 (00:17:15):

Exactly. You have to have both for sustainability.

Speaker 1 (00:17:18):

Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so you were doing a lot of work competing against him then you moved to la I've always thought that that's an interesting move. I've always wanted to, but I always kept on saying, I'm going to do it when I'm ready. I don't want to go to LA with nothing going on. And I realized it's already been 10 years where I qualified under my own criteria, but now I'm actively considering it. And that I read in the pre-interview notes really, really kind of struck me that I wanted to talk to you about. Okay, so Ben told me that you said that you never felt like LA was oversaturated. Maybe it was, but you never felt it. And I've always said that that oversaturation thing is a myth, and the reason that it's a myth is not because there aren't a lot of bodies, there are definitely a lot of bodies there, but because just like everywhere else, most of those bodies suck. And so if you really are great, as a matter of fact, you're going to stand out even more. I think

Speaker 2 (00:18:31):

It's so true,

Speaker 1 (00:18:31):

And you'll notice that even in LA there ends up being certain people who end up doing disproportionate amounts of work because they're that much better than everybody else. They try that much harder. They have that much more drive, they have that much more business sense, that much more skill. And so I've always maintained that you shouldn't worry about the saturation part, you should worry about A, how good are you? B, how good are you at networking?

Speaker 2 (00:19:01):

Absolutely. What do you think? Oh, it's so true. I mean, I had always been told before I came here that it was saturated. And I mean, like you said, everybody kind of says that about big cities, and so I certainly had formed that in my mind, but it helped a lot that I actually had a friend from Birmingham that had moved to LA to sign with Atlantic Records as a songwriter, and this guy named Michael Warren, he's incredibly talented, but at that time he kept being like, bro, you got to come out here, man. You got to come out here. I'm telling you you'd kill it out here. I'm like, I don't know, man. I mean, it's risky. And especially at that time, 2011, 2012 when I was considering it, I had gotten pretty comfortable in Alabama, and I mean, I certainly wasn't doing the caliber, no offense, but I wasn't at the level that I wanted to be in terms of clientele. I was doing more quality, I mean more quantity over quality. You know what I mean? I was recording like 40 bands a year, so

Speaker 1 (00:19:57):

That's a lot.

Speaker 2 (00:19:58):

Yeah. I mean, yeah, it was ridiculous.

Speaker 1 (00:20:00):

That's like a factory.

Speaker 2 (00:20:01):

It was the epitome of working hard and not smart, which it took me a little bit to learn, but he kept convincing me to move out. My friend Michael, and then once Josh was like, I think that's a great idea. I think we should really consider doing this. All it's going to take is this finding a spot. Let's just go for it. And he kind of pumped me up and we just put our heads together and we were like, we set a goal, we're like, we're going to move in one year. And so for that whole year we saved. I worked my ass off. We really got to the point where we were ready and everything just fell together. Josh found a spot. I got to

Speaker 3 (00:20:33):

Pop in here, and we even saved a ton of money on moving because we had an asle dying tour ending in Orlando, and the bus obviously had to deadhead all the way back to San Diego. So I set up this drop in Mobile, Alabama where we put all of Joseph's personal belongings and all of our studio gear from Alabama into the actual tour bus. There was chairs falling out of bunks,

Speaker 1 (00:20:56):

And man, I'm sure they loved that, or did everyone just fly?

Speaker 3 (00:20:59):

We all flew. So I mean, they were aware, but I don't think anyone except the bus driver was truly aware of how much additional weight was added to that bus. There was no

Speaker 1 (00:21:06):

Room. Well, hey, if they were flying, they didn't know it didn't happen.

Speaker 2 (00:21:12):

Exactly. We saved probably $3,000 at least of moving costs.

Speaker 1 (00:21:16):

That's interesting. About a month ago, I made the same goal. I said that I'm going to LA in a year. I actually think that that's the next step for URM.

Speaker 2 (00:21:28):

Yeah, nice. I would love that. That'd be sick.

Speaker 1 (00:21:30):

Yeah, it makes sense, right? It's one of those things where I'm very proud of everything we've done and more so that it's all been done remote, but I feel like if we had a headquarters in LA look out.

Speaker 3 (00:21:46):

Yeah. Well, one thing I was telling Joseph earlier is that I could totally understand if somebody is preaching, it doesn't matter where you're at, it doesn't matter if you're mixing something. You could be anywhere in the world. You could be on the beach and Bali mixing a record if you wanted to. That would be awesome. But there's something about being in a city like la, Nashville, New York City where the caliber of musicians and the energy that gravitate towards those places makes, even if you're kind of grinding at it like we did for a few years, just having that, I guess the cream of the crop kind of talent and those people, like you were mentioning the drive earlier, the people with the drive kind of go to those places since the industry's centered around them. So I guess it makes what we like to do a lot more fun when the artists are equally as driven. So true.

Speaker 1 (00:22:41):

And not just that there's an infrastructure there.

Speaker 3 (00:22:43):

Exactly.

Speaker 1 (00:22:44):

I feel like the music business is a super informal, unprofessional industry, but if there's any infrastructure to it at all, that's where it is.

Speaker 2 (00:22:58):

I mean, it's still pretty loose out here, but the people I work with don't really want to come in before noon, and you what I mean, which mean it suits me, but I'll have people call me trying to come into my studio at midnight, and it's just normal.

Speaker 1 (00:23:12):

I mean, music industry rules apply still, but at least there's an infrastructure out there and I feel like the amount of opportunity is just unparalleled. And I totally do agree that you could do things from any place else. I mean, I'm a perfect example of that. I have done things from any place else, but even that, I recognize that at some point, if you really want to get the maximum potential out of this, you won't really know what the ceiling is until you're around or in an environment where everybody is I guess thriving off of the same thing.

Speaker 2 (00:23:58):

Absolutely. And also I wanted to follow up on what we talked about earlier. I never really finished my statement about the whole it being flooded thing because really

Speaker 1 (00:24:07):

That's right.

Speaker 2 (00:24:08):

I feel like the key to that is I feel like I wouldn't recommend just anyone pack up and move to LA or you know what I mean, not just anyone. But what I found when I got out here, because like I said, it really helped because my friend Michael hooked me up with a job at Atlantic Records Studios, which was a great way to supplement not having any business instantly coming out to California for me and Josh's studio, we had to just start from scratch. So that helped tremendously. But what I found there when I started was that my work ethic and my ability spoke for itself. They didn't care that I had no school background, which I didn't do any of that. And the interns that were bringing me coffee and doing all this stuff had all just recently graduated from music school, which I mean, no dis to them, they're great dudes, but that just shows you, it's like, okay, they're here already.

(00:24:56):

They went through all the normal typical steps. I moved across the country and just instantly leapfrog all of the, you know what I'm saying? So it's just one of those things, if you are used to working your ass off wherever you are, if you are truly passionate about it, if you care more about what you do than the end result, that's literally all it. And I mean of course if you're talented, but when you, you're that prepared and you put yourself in the places to receive the right opportunity, you'll thrive for sure. And there's just been no, I don't want to say no competition, but really everybody else who just works together out here, the people that would be competition just want to work with me, not against me. That's what I found.

Speaker 1 (00:25:35):

That's because there is an industry with an infrastructure sort of out there where that's what I meant by everybody thrives from the same thing. It's not like there's two guys who do all the metal and

Speaker 4 (00:25:50):

Exactly,

Speaker 1 (00:25:52):

We're going to go neck and neck, the best man wins sort of situation. The city is built on entertainment and art. So I feel like there's this understanding between people that they are just an option of many options and it kind of forces, it does force a cooperation.

Speaker 3 (00:26:12):

Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (00:26:13):

And also I got to say that the leapfrogging thing, you can't forget the importance or understate the importance of having some connections to begin with because I think people need to understand that the whole networking thing, even though it's kind of a nasty word, it conjures images of NAM and bad business cards with perms and stuff like that. Really though I feel like it's the lifeblood and in lots of ways it's what will allow somebody to leapfrog.

Speaker 3 (00:26:51):

Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (00:26:52):

If you get there and you have a lot of drive and a lot of talent, but you don't know anybody, well, then you might not have the opportunity to show anybody that driver, that talent. And if you just know people, but you don't have the driver, the talent, then all of that might happen is you get one shot and then you never get another one. So you obviously have to have both. But if you do have that drive and you do have the work ethic plus you know people you will leapfrog. Absolutely.

Speaker 3 (00:27:22):

Yeah. And to that point, one of the cool things was the week we were moving out here, I just told the story about the tour bus as we were unloading the tour bus in San Diego to bring all the gear to la, we were given a live, it was like a live DVD shoot for the Mitch Lucker show for suicide silence when they had all the guest singers. And that was something that Daniel Castleman had passed on to us because he just didn't have the time to do it. For some reason, he was doing something else already, Daniel, right?

Speaker 1 (00:27:50):

Of course. I haven't talked to him in ages, but I have nothing but good things to say about him. These, he's great. They're a really awesome engineer.

Speaker 3 (00:27:58):

Oh yeah, he's worked on a lot of our stuff. So that was the first week we were here. We're like, oh my gosh, we're on top of the world. We already got this huge project instantly in LA and I had a lot of these, the networking contacts, but on the same, I guess at the same time, we didn't necessarily have any of those sort of blockbuster credits at that point. So that was where it became about the grinding, because my bands put out several records in the first few years that with woven war, at least when I was out here, and obviously we were test mixing for all of them and we didn't get it because there's a hesitation when you don't have that, I guess recognizable name quite yet. And so while the networking and being able to tell everybody I knew about the studio helped, it really just came down to just repetitively punishing and grinding

Speaker 1 (00:28:55):

And

Speaker 3 (00:28:55):

Just talking to everybody we could until you finally get that chance. And there's guys like Tommy Vet who we've had in here since probably the second month the studio was here and bad Wolfs is killing it now, and he still shouts us out. That's like the kind of relationships that we were able to build out here. And that kind of good experience with an artist is kind of its own networking because they tell their friends that are in bands that are doing real stuff. And I don't know, it's definitely complicated, but just so you know, even if you know a lot of people, there's still a pretty steep amount of grinding to be done.

Speaker 1 (00:29:34):

Absolutely. Well, I think that when you talk about a network of friends or contacts or colleagues, whatever, sometimes it comes off as if a mean something to the extent of have network will get gigs, and yeah, it's not exactly like that. It's more like if you check off all the boxes that you are friends with certain people who have opportunities around them and are doing the stuff you want to do, and they like you and they think you're good, a situation like the suicide silence show might happen for you because they are too busy and they feel comfortable passing it off to you, for instance. That's actually a perfect example. But that right there isn't going to guarantee what comes next because then you have to take that opportunity and knock it out of the park and keep going and keep going and keep going and make that same thing happen with hundreds of people that same, I know this person, I'm in good with them, they have good opinions of me and my work.

(00:30:50):

They feel comfortable giving me an opportunity and saying yes to giving me a shot. Basically. It kind of is that over and over and over again. And I think that at some point, your reputation exceeds your need to know everybody on a first name basis. For instance, if you do enough work, the momentum that it picks up will decrease the amount of networking you have to do. But really all that's happening is that somebody else is doing the networking for you, whether they're like Tommy Vex is shouting you out or somebody is finding one of your mixes on YouTube and being like, holy shit. It's either the music or another person is doing the work for you, but it's still getting out there and having that effect of changing somebody's mind. So I think at the beginning, it's especially important when you don't have the momentum that you have to create the momentum with relationships. And so if you have a few to begin with, it's more like kindling to a fire. I think that's more what it is than actually being the be all end all.

Speaker 2 (00:32:00):

Absolutely.

Speaker 3 (00:32:01):

Definitely.

Speaker 2 (00:32:01):

I think Josh, one of the things that I've enjoyed in partnering with Josh is he has been, I'm not really a social butterfly. I'm kind of a homebody, I'm workaholic. I like to, these are

Speaker 1 (00:32:14):

Most producers.

Speaker 2 (00:32:17):

Yeah, true. But I mean, Josh has facilitated so many of these relationships and these networking opportunities just from, I guess touring the world and playing with all these bands like Tommy Vex mean us doing Bad Wolves wouldn't have happened without that. So I mean, it is been hugely beneficial.

Speaker 1 (00:32:38):

Josh, I have a for you. So you said that you learned to record in order to do your own stuff? Yeah. Okay. Were you a vocalist first or did you learn how to sing for the same reason that you learned how to record to fulfill a need? Are you originally a singer or you got sick of singer sucking and decided to learn?

Speaker 3 (00:33:05):

Wow, it's kind of a combination of all that.

Speaker 1 (00:33:09):

There's a reason I'm asking.

Speaker 3 (00:33:11):

Okay, cool. Yeah. In Joseph and I's Band, for example, I was never, I think, intended, correct me if I'm wrong to sing anything on our first little EP that we did, but our singer at the time, I think he had blown out his voice while we were recording, and we thought it was possible to record six songs of vocals in two days before going on tour. And of course he couldn't do it, so I was like, oh, I'll hit a couple of these parts. And then it was like, oh man, this worked out all right enough with some digital help. And so I kind of from there started working on it a little bit more. But yeah, it was to fulfill a need. I was never at that point lead singer or anything. It was more of a backing kind of like the good cop, bad cop vocals that metal core bands have.

Speaker 2 (00:33:55):

He was good though. He's leaving that out.

Speaker 3 (00:33:56):

He

Speaker 2 (00:33:57):

Was a good singer at that point for sure. But anyways, continue.

Speaker 3 (00:33:59):

Yeah, I didn't take it seriously, I guess.

Speaker 1 (00:34:02):

And what was the second part of your question? Well, what I was wondering was, because if you had said, I always wanted to be a vocalist, then I'd would think, okay, cool, that whole social butterfly thing that Joseph was saying isn't natural to him, then I'd say, okay, well then I guess it's definitely natural for you if you're, because vocalists tend to be super extroverted, but would you consider yourself extroverted or introverted?

Speaker 3 (00:34:29):

I wouldn't consider myself the typical extrovert that's laughing the loudest or stopping the party to tell a joke or anything. But I definitely would fall somewhere in the middle of the spectrum, I guess when compared with Joseph. I enjoy social occasions and networking, I guess if we'll use that word, but I definitely reach a threshold pretty quick, and I kind am one of those guys who does the old Irish goodbye and just kind of sneaks out the back without saying bye.

Speaker 1 (00:34:59):

I call it the,

Speaker 3 (00:35:00):

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 (00:35:01):

Drop, dip, disappear,

Speaker 3 (00:35:03):

Dip. That's way better than Irish. Yeah, that is good. Yeah, I don't think I definitely actually always just imagined myself as a guitarist, actually what I played all the way up until the point where I started playing with the guys out here.

Speaker 1 (00:35:19):

Okay. Do you find that you've had to make yourself more social or in order to be able to do the networking thing, or it just kind of came naturally to you?

Speaker 3 (00:35:32):

Oh man. My personality, and I don't know if it was my upbringing or what, but I really like to listen to people and it really stresses me out when people interrupt each other. So when I'm listening to podcasts and everyone's interrupting each other, I have a visceral physical reaction to it. So I've always been more of a listener in conversations, but I found that sometimes you only have that one chance to introduce yourself, and if you are being, I guess, extremely polite and kind of dipping back in the corner for the conversation, you might miss that chance. So I think it's, for me, it was definitely a learning experience when going to things like playing these big festivals. We would play, when I first joined the band, there would be like Alison Chains was there and hell yeah was there, and Vinny, Paul, and all these people are there. And being able to, I guess walk up to a conversation that was not something that came natural to me. But with practice, I think anybody can kind of get better at just going, well, got nothing to lose. I'm just going to introduce myself.

Speaker 1 (00:36:37):

How did you train that? Lemme say one thing before you answer that. That's why I can't watch the news. All the interrupting, I can't handle it. I hate it so much. Just people talking over each other. One of the reasons that I actually prefer to do these podcasts in person, we're doing this one on Skype because we have to, but recently I've started doing them in person when I can, and Skype has this delay. It varies depending on the internet quality where people interrupt each other, not because they're meaning to interrupt each other, but just because the delay makes things weird is super unnerving. So I can relate to how frustrating it is on my end. It's just frustrating when it happens, even as a podcast host. But I'm asking you specifically because we deal with lots of people who are trying to become professional producers.

(00:37:36):

That's kind of the whole mission at URM, is to help people turn that dream into a reality. And the reality is that most producers are introverted. Like Joseph described himself, I'm the same way. I've had to teach myself to be social, but my natural self is super introverted, and I've found that the little bit that I have taught myself has gone a really long way. And I've seen a few people teach themselves how to do it and how to deal with it, and they've benefited tremendously. And so from somebody who went from a local band in Alabama to being in the room with Alison Chains, and how did you pick up those skills? How did you make it comfortable?

Speaker 3 (00:38:23):

Oh man. I won't say that it ever really got more comfortable, per se. It just became more, I guess, being put in more social situations and not just with larger than life bands like that, but just with my peers, I guess

Speaker 1 (00:38:38):

Tolerable, maybe the words tolerable.

Speaker 3 (00:38:40):

Yeah, it became more normal and more tolerable. And I think you just like anything, talking to a girl or a guy in high school, you kind of work up to it, I guess. And for me, it just was, I definitely would say if you talk to a band we toured with in 2007 when I first joined, they would probably be like, that's the quiet guy, the quiet weird guy from Alabama that doesn't quite fit in with these SoCal boys. But it's definitely, I think just being able to talk with more people improved that for sure.

Speaker 2 (00:39:14):

Yeah, I think it's practice, just like anything. I mean, for me, even it's gotten to the point where it's not really uncomfortable for me at all anymore. I mean, after having to work with so many people and go into all these situations now, it is kind of a thing where I would just prefer to be home, or I prefer to be in a smaller setting. I love talking to people. I love being social. Me and Josh can talk for hours with each other on end. You know what I mean? I am not a huge fan of going to big events with a million people and whatever, but having done it so much at this point, I don't feel even remotely uncomfortable. It's just not my number one option. So now it's kind of a thing where it'll be Josh like, oh, dude, we should go to the show. And I'm like, but I hate, I don't really care about any of those bands. And Josh is like, but

Speaker 3 (00:40:02):

Joe, what is your number one option? I'm just curious.

Speaker 2 (00:40:06):

Tell the listeners. I don't know, man. I mean, I'd honestly just rather be working, to be completely honest, either working or binging tv, something I don't know. But I'll end up going most of the time now. But it's always Josh yourself, do the one. Oh, yeah. I mean, it's super important. You have to do it just to show face.

Speaker 1 (00:40:26):

Yeah, I guess that whole thing about remaining top of mind, that's also why I want to move to LA is just for that top of mind factor. But I guess, sorry, I don't want to get redundant here, but to drive it home, I guess you're in the room with somebody that you might be somewhat starstruck by or who holds an opportunity that's really, really important to you, or who you really look up to or whatever it is. Or it's just a peer that you've seen online that you've wanted to meet but have never gotten the chance, not how do you approach them, but how did you get past that voice that stops you from approaching them, besides just doing it a lot? How do you break it's a, in the first place,

Speaker 3 (00:41:21):

A good, well, I can say from my experience, and this is something as recently as 2017, Joseph and I got the opportunity to work with Light the Torch, and it started out as just I going to do some pre-pro with Howard, Howard Jones, and I'd even toured with Howard, but when I toured with him, he kind of was a little more reclusive, so I didn't know him that well. And I guess the pressure of recording someone, even though it was just for demos and stuff with, I guess I, I'm so fond of as a performer, and just his voice is legendary. So working with him, I definitely felt some pressure still. But I think, I guess especially in the music world, or at least when working with bands that I guess hold that sort of prestige, I kind of view it as these people are here being vulnerable as well, and they're creating art, and that always comes from a vulnerable spot. So I think with artists, I guess it's always easier for me to level with them in that way, in the business sense. I think it's just, like I said before, it just became, I would say Joseph and I are probably some of the most anti, what would be the word?

(00:42:39):

I don't like to show up and just start talking about everything I've been doing at my studio. And I think sometimes in the past that's hurt us and we've become slowly more comfortable with posting something that's like, Hey, I co-wrote this song. Hey, I mixed this song. Because in the past you didn't want to come across as bragging on

Speaker 2 (00:42:56):

Yourself, bragging dish. I forgot what I did. Yeah, it's tough. It's tough to do for sure.

Speaker 1 (00:43:01):

There's a fine line.

Speaker 2 (00:43:02):

Yeah. Oh yeah, for sure. Oh, definitely. There's a fine line. But to back up what Josh was saying, I mean, for me, I think how I got over it or I got more comfortable with it was honestly just seeing the validation of what I was doing and how it was affecting the room. And honestly, working in Atlantic was pretty crazy in terms of getting over all of that. I mean, I was in the room with Florid and David gta and all this stuff, and obviously when it happened, at first I was like, oh, man, this is crazy. But once I got working, and once they were like, oh, man, you're good. And Floreta wanted me to at one point, wanted me to be his engineer full on.

Speaker 3 (00:43:40):

He wanted to move you to Miami, right?

Speaker 2 (00:43:42):

Yeah, it was an option. It would've so dope possibly. But yeah, so I was kind of like, okay, you know what I'm saying? I kind of got the confidence that, so I received that validation. So when those opportunities presented themselves, again, I was much more comfortable. I was like, okay, I'm ready. I got this. I mean, that certainly only applies to working with them, but I guess that's kind of the only times that I was really at that point, nervous about it anyway. It's like, can I keep up? Am I good enough to do what these guys need?

Speaker 1 (00:44:10):

It's interesting, that whole imposter syndrome idea of do I really belong here?

Speaker 2 (00:44:16):

Right.

Speaker 1 (00:44:17):

It's real. And I honestly feel like it never totally goes away, man. I don't know that many people who are very successful who don't have a little bit of imposter syndrome, unless their ego is just, I mean, we all know those ego monster types. So yeah, they exist the God's gift types. But I think nons psychopaths all have a little bit of imposter syndrome.

Speaker 3 (00:44:48):

I think it's that nagging kind of feeling of imposter syndrome that is what drives people to improve, or at least it was for me. It's like you reach that point where you feel comfortable with something, and that's the time without fail that I end up making a massive mistake because I got a little too arrogant or a little too cocky about the process or whatever. And I think that imposter syndrome is actually a positive tool as long as you don't let it overtake the ambition side of it.

Speaker 2 (00:45:18):

Yeah, I completely agree. I think for me, it was kind of an opposite problem where I never took time to really pay attention and acknowledge the things that I was getting to do because I completely agree with what you're saying. I feel like it's always the people who never feel good enough or never feel like what they're doing are good enough are the ones that rise higher. Totally. And it's always the guys who are like, I'm the best. That just suck. It just never fails. But at the same time, I do think that it's important to, and I've been told this by people, and I think it's good to sit back and look at what you've done and be like, okay, I'm on a good path. I'm on a good trajectory. You're seeing some success because that can push you further. But I do think that you have to never be satisfied. Always know that you have more to learn, always have room to grow and get way better.

Speaker 1 (00:46:09):

I feel like that whole sitting back and recognizing how well you've done is a 92nd thing. For sure. For sure. It's like keep it to 90 seconds and then move on. I've always had a really hard time doing it. People have told me that I should do it more, because sometimes I'll feel like no progress was made when a ton of progress was made. There's times where, for instance, I'll just feel like nothing has even happened in 10 years. I'm still in this tiny band and nothing's happened. I get this voice in my head, and that's just not reality. A lot's happened. So it's good to take 90 seconds to snap out of that and not just be like, yeah, rule, but just snap out of that negative voice. Because if you actually give into the negative voice, it'll keep you from moving forward as well. Exactly. I think it's

Speaker 2 (00:47:18):

Just be aware of it. Don't dwell on it. I think that's the thing. Just be aware of it, the success. So

Speaker 1 (00:47:23):

I think you brought up something really interesting about imposter syndrome. I've been talking to a lot of people who are coming to the URM summit, and one of the main reasons that people have said they're afraid to go is because of imposter syndrome. They're afraid that they don't belong in the room with a bunch of other producers. I guess there's a lot of producers there that are their idols, but they also have a feeling, an incorrect feeling that every single student who's bought a ticket is engineering for Colin Britain or something. And that's not the case. Not everybody is that advanced. There's all different levels of people and nobody's an imposter being there, but I feel like, so the imposter syndrome, if you have it, it's hard to get rid of. However you can use it for good or you can use it for bad. If it stops you from taking opportunities because you feel like you don't belong in the room, then that's a bad thing. But if it keeps you always sharpening the saw and always striving for more because you feel like you're not good enough yet not satisfied, then it's a good thing. So really, maybe it's just a matter of reframing, reframing it in a positive way because I feel like it never totally goes away.

Speaker 3 (00:48:46):

And I think the older I've gotten, the more I realize how much everyone is winging it. All the people that you look at and you think they have their shit together, they actually have it very little together. It's like everybody's still kind of dealing with the same kind of stuff you are. So I guess I've learned to appreciate that rush. I get when I'm doing something, I know I'm kind of out of my element in, for example, just the first songwriting gig that I ever had outside songwriting was with a bullet for my Valentine. And I had never once worked with an artist writing a song that wasn't my own song, but I kind of just acted like it was a normal thing, even though I was freaking out internally about it. But it ended up turning out to be really awesome. It took a couple of days to get firing off, but it was probably, that was the first time I was like, oh, I get it now. When people say that nobody really knows what they're doing. They're just kind of going with the flow. And I guess that's how the best opportunities had sort of happened for both Joseph and I, we you kind of get those opportunities to do something a little bit uncomfortable and obviously feel that imposter syndrome. I think it's a small amount of, it's healthy, but

Speaker 2 (00:50:00):

I feel like we end up doing better too when we're under the gun lifestyle. You have something to prove. It's a huge challenge. I mean, I think we're both pretty competitive by nature too, in terms of that, but getting those big opportunities, it is like a rush, like he said. But I also feel like I've done some of my best work in times like that where I'm like, man, this is pretty heavy.

Speaker 1 (00:50:18):

It's interesting because again, it's just what you do with it, I think, because there are some people who will take that uncomfortable, but good opportunity and crumble for some reason, other people who will, I don't know, it energizes them somehow. And I've done both, I guess. There's obviously been some things I've botched and some things I've totally won on, and I've tried to think about, well, what's the difference? What was I doing differently when I got that feeling that this is awesome, but it's kind of scary a little bit. It's a little much for what I feel like I'm capable of. And I realized that the times where I messed it all up, whatever it was, is because I was totally psyching myself out. I was focusing way too hard on what was wrong about everything, including me, rather than focusing really, really hard on how we're going to make this work.

Speaker 2 (00:51:23):

Yeah, totally. I think for me, it comes down to just how people view failure, because I think I've noticed a huge, some people love failure, some people hate, most people, I would say, are fear or they can't stand failure, so they don't want to take risks they don't want. That's all they can think about. And that completely prevents them from being able to operate at their maximum capacity. For me, I've honestly grown to love it because it's the only way you learn, really. It's the only way you can grow. So only you can get better is by messing up. And I think that you have to go into things going, I'm going to mess up. Okay. You know what I mean? Instead of thinking the whole time, oh no, what if I'm saying I feel like it's entirely about how you view that.

Speaker 1 (00:52:08):

Yeah. So it's almost as if we all are presented with very similar types of scenarios, and what makes all the difference is how we internally relate to those scenarios. So speaking of failure and those types of scenarios, were you always comfortable with it, or is that something you had to learn how to do?

Speaker 3 (00:52:34):

No, absolutely not.

Speaker 2 (00:52:35):

Absolutely not.

Speaker 3 (00:52:37):

I can relate this even to something not with recording or production or anything, was when I first started performing at these huge shows, I was kind of still in that zone where I was just riding the rush that I was talking about where I'm like, I don't really belong here, but this is fun and I'm just going to do what I can. But it's like when I really started to overthink things, it was like being given these DVDs of the board feed at a big festival in Europe, and you hear what you actually sound like, and then you go, oh, whoa, I was having a great time, but I sound terrible at this show. And the band's like, yeah, you sound terrible at the show. And then you let that kind of build up. And there was a couple of years where I really let it get to me, and I didn't even enjoy what I was doing because I was warming up just so long every day, and I was doing all these exercises.

(00:53:29):

I wasn't drinking at all. I wasn't eating spicy food. I had all these rituals. And it wasn't until I was doing, we were doing the powerless rise with Adam D, and he was like, you know what happened to me, man? I just started not caring at all because I've messed up so many times in the past. I can't mess it up anymore in the future any worse than I did already. And that sounds kind of counterintuitive or kind of like a cop out, but it actually worked so well. And since then, it's been easier for me to embrace the times that I fail because I think about the times that I failed worse before. So that sounds backward, but it actually, it works for me at least.

Speaker 2 (00:54:13):

Yeah. I think for me, I changed how I viewed what I was doing a few years back. I read the Steve Jobs biography. I know that's kind of random, but incredibly inspirational, like mind blowingly. So just the way that he, and he always preaches that too. He preaches that you should just embrace failure, because that's literally the only way that we grow and learn. You don't learn from your successes, you don't learn anything. So it's just through that. So I kind of started to view things that I'm doing as more of a product instead of something that I'm attaching myself to personally. So if people don't like what I'm doing, instead of me getting butt hurt about it, I go, why? What did I mess up? Oh, I didn't deliver here. And then I had a completely different awareness about the whole thing. I didn't take it personally. I feel like honestly, so many musicians and other people should incorporate this mentality to what they do, but they don't. But that has helped me tremendously. So whenever I'm doing something, it's more about what I'm doing. It's like a product. It's not attached to me personally. You know what I'm saying?

Speaker 1 (00:55:16):

Man, that's so hard of a point to get to though. I mean, it makes perfect rational sense, but it's almost like you have to learn how to quell this part of you that does not want to be okay with that sort of thing. And I think that with enough practice, it becomes very natural. And like you said, you can learn to embrace it, almost like the zen sort of thing. But I feel like it's a very unnatural thing, and especially for musicians, artists, producers, people who do creative work, there's this identity that we attach to what we do, which it's almost essential in some ways. So to be able to, I guess, infuse the work with that personality when you're doing it, and then disassociate yourself from it when you're getting the feedback that's like some mental gymnastics, some toughness, it's not very natural.

Speaker 3 (00:56:18):

Well, I'll say that Joseph and I differ in that a little bit because like I said earlier, I kind of lean more on the creative side of things. Usually my role comes a little more down to the creative decisions like production and tones and stuff like that. So I think there's a balance to strike where you don't want to be, I'll use Joseph's word, butt hurt by the critique, but I also feeling passionate enough to question that critique. You know what I mean? I feel like if I'm not passionate about something that I'm putting down onto tape or digital files, whatever you call it now, I dunno, there's a fine line to be struck to where you're open to critique, but also willing to defend why you got there in the first place. And I think that's where I try to improve all the time when working with artists or vice versa when I'm working with an artist and they get offended at my critique, is finding where that balance is and getting the most healthy version of it. Man, it's so tough. And Josh have had many

Speaker 2 (00:57:21):

Fights.

Speaker 1 (00:57:21):

Oh, sorry, go ahead.

Speaker 2 (00:57:22):

Yeah, no, I was just going to say follow up. Me and Josh have had many

Speaker 4 (00:57:25):

Fights. Stop interrupting.

Speaker 1 (00:57:25):

Sorry.

Speaker 2 (00:57:26):

I'm just kidding. No, I just completely agree with what he said and I think that's what makes me and him such a good team is because I do feel like there needs to be a healthy balance because I feel like there's always been a little bit of that in my personality. Josh always gets mad or upset at me before because I'll say something really hyperbolic about just judging an album or something that I think is bad because I have gotten so used to not attaching things to my identity that people could tell me something that I have sucks and I really wouldn't care. I'd be like, okay, that's fine. Maybe it does, but if I do that to someone else, people would get upset. They're like, Hey man, don't talk about my band like that. But especially when it's come to me and him working together, it's been a really useful blend because he certainly is still in that and I've kind of gotten a little bit more on the robotic side, so I think it's a really healthy blend to have both sides of that. He was just

Speaker 1 (00:58:22):

Saying, I feel like it's really tough with mixed notes. I feel like mixed notes are this thing that they're like the bane of so many mixers and producers existence, because on the one hand, some of those can make or break the record. Some of the notes are so essential and so good that if you don't pay attention to them, you might be missing out on some real genius coming in from the artist. And obviously there's other times where they're the dumbest idea you could ever imagine. They're going to just ruin all your work. It's like you work so

Speaker 3 (00:59:06):

Hard. True one db up.

Speaker 1 (00:59:07):

Yeah. Oh, it's so true. Or one PO. Yeah. Or completely pointless.

Speaker 2 (00:59:13):

Josh has gotten really good at breaking through my wall because I certainly get hardheaded about things, which I think that just goes with the territory. But yeah, Josh is really good about being Just try it. Yeah, just shut up. Just try it. And a lot of times I like that though. I kind of get excited when we're kind of getting heated a little bit because I think iron sharpens iron. That sounds erotic, but I mean, in the end, I'm very stoked. It'll be a battle and it'll be not fun in the moment, but in the end we'll come out with something so much better. You just said some of those notes are so essential, but then

Speaker 3 (00:59:47):

Well, you should bring up, how do you feel about Philo's Notes?

Speaker 2 (00:59:51):

Philo? I'm going to say it right now. The worst, the longest,

Speaker 3 (00:59:55):

Not worst. Not worse.

Speaker 2 (00:59:56):

Not worse. Okay. Some of them are just so relevant. It's literally what you just said. It doesn't change anything about the album for anyone other than him, which I understand that. I get it. And I don't fault him for feeling that way, but oh my God. So I, I've never worked with a band that had more notes. I'll just say

Speaker 3 (01:00:16):

That. But when you do get that one diamond in the rough note, that completely changes the vibe or completely just finally puts that finishing touch on the song.

Speaker 2 (01:00:24):

That's true.

Speaker 3 (01:00:25):

It's worth all those 0.1 DB

Speaker 2 (01:00:27):

L, and that's why you got to just go through it anyway. You just got to take it. And then when it's over, you're hopefully proud of what you've done.

Speaker 1 (01:00:34):

What's your policy towards notes? I know that there's some dudes who will say, I will do anything until you're happy. And I'm talking about it depends, top mixers who they have no limit on the amount of notes and then other ones who are like five revisions, that's it. Get your shit together, need them fast. And this is not a mark of success or failure because I know top mixers who are either way about it.

Speaker 2 (01:01:08):

Yeah, I mean for me, it really does depend on who I'm working with. I mean, I feel like if it's a big opportunity and if it's a band that you're getting to work with for the first time and you're really trying to establish a relationship with that band, I think you want to do whatever you can to make them happy.

Speaker 3 (01:01:25):

And you're probably less likely to really speak up with a forceful opinion in that situation, I would say, at least in my cases.

Speaker 2 (01:01:32):

Yeah, for sure. So I mean, I certainly have put limits on it. If it's an unsigned band sending me a project, I'm going to go, okay, you get three revisions. Anything after that you're going to have to pay, which I mean, what I find is mostly with those bands is they don't really have any notes Anyway. What's interesting recently I did upon a Burning Body album this year, they actually had zero notes, literally zero album notes, not one.

Speaker 1 (01:01:58):

Doesn't that scare you though?

Speaker 2 (01:02:01):

No, I mean, not in this case. I actually felt pretty confident about it. I was like, all right, is good. I felt like I was satisfied with that, so I actually wasn't scared. Sometimes I appreciate it though. A lot of times I'll send a first draft or a second draft and I'm like, okay, I know personally it's not there yet. I'm going to need a stew over this in my car. And you know what I'm saying, some mixes come real quick, some of them, it's a process. So in those, I actually do find notes to be incredibly valuable, but with that album in particular, I actually kind of agreed, which never really happens.

Speaker 3 (01:02:36):

I'm going to jump in here. I think the way you said that if it was an unsigned band, you would give them less opportunity for notes. Sounded kind of harsh as well. Well, I think what you meant though, right, is that you don't want to have one of those 50 bullet point notes per song with Pan this one to 71 to the left.

Speaker 2 (01:02:56):

Well, because happened.

Speaker 3 (01:02:57):

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:02:57):

As you know.

Speaker 3 (01:02:58):

I just wanted to explain that because I think it came off in a different way than you were.

Speaker 2 (01:03:01):

Right? Right. Sorry. Yeah, I guess I felt like that was kind of a given. I think everybody has to go through that at some point as a mixing engineer, but maybe not.

Speaker 1 (01:03:09):

Well, there's this thing that local bands don't have, which I think is experience where you will get guys in sign bands who have way too many notes, but they typically understand the limitations of a budget, at least for the most part. They understand when it's over, it's over kind of stuff, or we only have three days left, so we got to get it done. Those types of things are very real to people who have been on label deadlines and have labeled budgets. And I know that some bands get their budgets upped or whatever, but for the most part, if you've been dealing with labels and their budgets that they don't typically go up, and so you got to make some concessions. Even if you have long notes, you got to make some concessions eventually. And I feel like local bands just haven't experienced that. So not having experienced that can be way more unrealistic about their expectations.

Speaker 2 (01:04:18):

Yeah, I think I waited a pretty long amount of time to put a cap on that compared to others. I really want people to be happy. And so I would spend a lot, I used to just never give any limitations. I would just do as many notes as it took for them

Speaker 3 (01:04:35):

To be happy. But that's back when the mixes because of that and not really having any defined policy, it would cause these mixes to take six months because it's like, oh man, Ricky went on vacation. He can't get his vocal notes in until next week. And like, oh crap, we got to go. We forgot the harmony on the third chorus of whatever, and we're going to come in.

Speaker 2 (01:04:54):

Like I said, I was working harder, not smarter.

Speaker 1 (01:04:57):

So that's kind of what I meant too, that their notes can be detrimental. That can happen if you're not laying down the law. But I think also, especially at the very beginning, you really need to try hard to win bands over. So it's so hard to know where to draw the line because seen lots of producers that are showing some talent and first starting to get work, get really burned out in that first year of having momentum. It'll be maybe five years in to where they are finally making a living at it and their name is getting around, and so they're getting a lot more bookings and suddenly they're really busy and it's the first time that they've ever been really, really busy. So they don't totally know how to manage their time yet, and things can kind of spiral out of control because on the one hand, they're experiencing success.

(01:06:00):

They don't want it to stop and they want to make everybody happy so that they come back and the success continues. And finally, the tree is bearing fruit. However, on the other hand, if you let things go on too long like that, it's not good for anybody. And you'll end up pissing people off in the long run and records will get ruined and nothing will get done. So it's a really tough line to walk, and I've seen quite a few people get burned out because they feel like every single project just goes on forever. And at the end of the day, they're making half minimum wage.

Speaker 3 (01:06:42):

And I think we found, and this is something that I mean we're still getting better at to this day, is like you have to define the expectations to the artists upfront because I think when you don't do that, it becomes a burden on both sides. Because for example, if they don't know that they need to have their notes in by a certain day for you to be able to do those notes before your next project and they give them to you the next day after that, they were supposed to have it do, that means that they're actually not going to get their mixed notes for three weeks now or four weeks. And so it's like we found that early on we were making the mistake of not defining those boundaries and not defining those expectations, and the artists would complain at the end about it. And so that's something I would say one of the most important things that we've learned, especially since being out in la, is you kind of have to define those expectations of not only what they expect of you, but what you expect of them upfront. Because if you're trying to schedule out and run an actual business, you can't do it with, like you were saying earlier, earlier, the music industry kind of looseness,

Speaker 1 (01:07:47):

Man, I have made that mistake of getting the mixed notes in too late and then already being onto the next project. So not being able to get to them for four weeks, but not being clear about that in advance with the band. And so I would get mad at the band for not understanding that they didn't meet the deadline and therefore I have something else. And the whole time, I should have just explained it from the beginning, it's something I learned to do eventually when I realized that I was being an idiot by not, it was one of these things where I was right, so I felt like I was right. They should just meet the deadline. You don't meet the deadline. Shit happens. I got to move on with my life. I can't stop this next project that put down a down payment has their own deadlines. You didn't get the notes in, but at the same time, that's not the way you want to treat people that you want coming back. And so it all gets mitigated by just talking about it upfront and just being super, super clear.

Speaker 2 (01:08:56):

Totally agree. I mean, I think that you just have to, like he said, establish expectations and then exceed them. And I think I struggle with the same thing, like you said for a long time where I just felt like I'm right. You should see my logic. You should see my logic. You should deal with this.

Speaker 1 (01:09:13):

Yeah, because logical, right? My logic's logical see it,

Speaker 2 (01:09:16):

But the customer is always right. Policy still applies to some extent. So in the end, if you didn't, you know what I'm saying? If you didn't set someone's expectations, you kind of, that's your own fault and you have to deal with it. If you want to keep them as a customer, you kind of have to just do damage control at that point, which like you said, it'll sometimes projects get stacked and stacked and stacked and then you're just in way over your head and it's a mess. 18 hours a day. Yeah, I've done that. Oh my God. I mean, I've had bands walk in, I've had bands walk in while I'm still recording the previous band, and I'm just like, oh, this is just so embarrassing.

Speaker 1 (01:09:51):

How did that happen? Did you just overbook yourself or just didn't get done? Yeah,

Speaker 2 (01:09:58):

Absolutely. Overbooked myself, which was a problem. What year was this? 2011? 2000? No, 2010 I think. Yeah, it really ramped up back home in Alabama, and I was doing so much work was just, I mean this one particular week, I worked like 130 hours, I think in one week. I stayed up all night, three days in a row trying to finish this band. Oh yeah, not, wow. Wasn't nice then. And I still didn't finish, and a previous band just walks in and I forgot that it was going to be that night instead of the next day. And I just had to be like, guys, I'm so sorry, but can we postpone? They were so angry, but it ended up being okay. But yeah, those mistakes cannot keep happening if you want to have run a sustainable business,

Speaker 1 (01:10:44):

Obviously. That's exactly what I was talking about though, about that trap that producers get at the beginning of their success, that overbooking trap.

Speaker 2 (01:10:56):

It's hard to avoid because you need the money too, so it's really easy to get caught up in it.

Speaker 1 (01:11:01):

Well, you've been working so hard for so many years to get people to say yes to you, and they're finally saying yes to you, so now you're supposed to say no.

Speaker 4 (01:11:10):

Exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:11:11):

It doesn't make any sense. It's really, really tough. How did you fix that? How did you stop doing it? What steps did you take

Speaker 3 (01:11:23):

Using an actual calendar on your iPhone? Crazy little things

Speaker 2 (01:11:26):

Like that. Who thought that kind of stuff. I just grew up. I made, that's the thing, I made the mistakes enough times to learn from them. That's why I keep saying I was just failing and I wasn't an idiot, so I paid attention to what I was doing. And a lot of times it was even having Josh working with me, being like, dude, you can't do that, man. You know what I mean? I'm like, well, easy for you to say, dude, you're not, you know what I mean? So it was a thing, but he was just right in the end, and I knew that. And so I also had a problem back then with I would sleep in sometimes. I don't know, just dumb stuff like that you cannot do, you can't afford to do, and I feel like

Speaker 1 (01:12:09):

I did that too.

Speaker 2 (01:12:10):

If you make, yeah, I've heard of other people doing it too. It is the worst feeling in the world, but if you do it and you learn and you realize how awful that was you, that traumatic experience, hopefully you won't do it again or too many more times. Well, you know how from those mistakes

Speaker 1 (01:12:28):

Stopped doing it was I stopped letting projects go super late because the times, so I've had lifelong insomnia that I recently got. I wouldn't say it's, wouldn't say it's a hundred percent fixed, but let's just say it's 85% fixed. I can kind of relate 85%. I mean, last night I couldn't fall asleep till 7:00 AM but that happens. But that only happens three times a month now as opposed to every day of the month. And when I was recording for a living and I didn't set boundaries on projects, I would let them go till one in the morning, two in the morning, three in the morning, then the session's over and I'm fucking wired. Insomnia is in full gear. I'm not one of those people who could just go to sleep. I'm sure you know those types.

Speaker 2 (01:13:26):

I am that type.

Speaker 1 (01:13:27):

Okay, so yeah, I hate you, but

Speaker 2 (01:13:31):

I go to bed at 5:00 AM almost every night, so I feel you there.

Speaker 1 (01:13:34):

That is so amazing. Yeah, so I'm not one of those types. And so after the band would leave or the session would be over, then I need three hours to unwind the hamster,

Speaker 2 (01:13:49):

Decompress,

Speaker 1 (01:13:49):

Get the hamster wheel to shut down. By that time it's six in the morning, so getting to sleep at six in the morning and then what we're going to start working at 11. There's only so long that you can do that before you end up sleeping in

Speaker 3 (01:14:05):

And you're not going to be on the top of your game either when you're always on lack of sleep, and you take it as this badge of honor of like, oh, I pulled an all nighter. I'm getting so much work done, but there's no chance that work is as good as if you were getting seven or eight hours of sleep and just being on a normal schedule.

Speaker 2 (01:14:22):

Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:14:23):

When did you stop doing the all-nighters?

Speaker 2 (01:14:27):

I think when I got too old to be able to pull it off. I mean, I'm still very much a night owl. I mean, I'm not the kind of guy who just falls asleep ever. I do not fall asleep. I actually have to make a conscious effort to lay down and have a wind down routine.

Speaker 1 (01:14:44):

What's your routine?

Speaker 2 (01:14:46):

I watch really boring YouTube videos

Speaker 1 (01:14:48):

On my phone.

Speaker 2 (01:14:50):

It works so well. And I mean, yeah, for me it's got to be stuff that I'm not interested in or else it'll just make it worse. So it'll be like just recommended videos about people talking about things I don't understand or don't care about, whatever, just nothing exciting. Or I'll find something really boring on tv, something that I don't care about, whatever, and somehow that lulls me to sleep. But yeah, I just feel like that has kind of worked itself out. As I've gotten older. I have no problem waking up when I need to now or going to sleep. It is still pretty late, but fortunately, I don't really have a lot of people wanting to work before noon. Actually, none of my clients and very few people actually want to get going before noon. That's just kind how the music industry is out here. Occasionally I'll have somebody want to do a 9:00 AM session or a 10:00 AM session, and then it is just easy for me to, no problem. I'll get up. I'll be tired, but whatever. But yeah, I would say, I'm trying to think of when, I mean, I stopped sleeping in on bands years ago. I haven't done that in forever. That was kind of a really early on thing. But yeah, I don't know. I think just my body just kind of fixed itself as I got older.

Speaker 3 (01:16:00):

Funny coincidences that I'm actually on an all-nighter right as we speak. Well,

Speaker 1 (01:16:04):

You just flew in, didn't you?

Speaker 3 (01:16:06):

Yeah. Yeah. We left Columbia last night at 11:30 PM and I landed at around 11:00 AM this morning and took an Uber to the studio up in Burbank. So I'm just running on no sleep, so hopefully nothing's coming out too jumbled.

Speaker 1 (01:16:24):

No, you're a beast. How long is that flight?

Speaker 3 (01:16:27):

It was two separate flights. It was one, I think five hour flight from Bogota to Dallas, and then Dallas to LA was about four, three and a half, four hours, so it really wasn't that much flying, but we had a four hour layover in Dallas, so that was just punishing for everyone involved.

Speaker 1 (01:16:42):

Hey, everybody, if you're enjoying this podcast and you should know that it's brought to you by URM Academy, URM Academy's mission is to create the next generation of audio professionals by giving them the inspiration information to hone their craft and build a career doing what they love. You've probably heard me talk about Nail the Mix before, and if you remember, you already know how amazing it is. At the beginning of the month, nail the mix members, get the raw multitracks to a new song by artists like Lama, God eth Shuga, bring Me the Horizon Gaira asking Alexandria Machine Head and Papa Roach among many, many others. Then at the end of the month, the producer who mixed it comes on and does a live streaming walkthrough of exactly how they mix the song of the album and takes your questions live on the air. You'll also get access to Mix Lab, our collection of dozens of bite-sized mixing tutorials that cover all the basics and Portfolio Builder, which is a library of pro quality multi-tracks cleared for use your portfolio.

(01:17:45):

So your career will never again be held back by the quality of your source material. And for those who really, really want to step up their game, we have another membership tier called URM Enhanced, which includes everything I already told you about, and access to our massive library of fast tracks, which are deep, super detailed courses on intermediate and advanced topics like gain staging, mastering loan, and so forth. It's over 50 hours of content. And man, let me tell you, this stuff is just insanely detailed. Enhanced members also get access to one-on-one office hours sessions with us and mixed rescue, which is where we open up one of your mixes on a live video stream, fix it up and talk you through exactly what we're doing at every step. If any of that sounds interesting to you, if you're ready to level up your mixing skills and your audio career, head over to URM Academy slash enhanced to find out more. Got it. Yeah. Sometimes I've found that doing podcasts after days like that, I do a better job. In a weird way, I believe it. It's hard for me to quantify. I remember this episode I did with a machine and Chris Hadler. I remember I had just finished the Kurt Baloo Nail the Mix, and

Speaker 3 (01:19:05):

I watched that one.

Speaker 1 (01:19:05):

Yeah, that one was really long and it was one of our longest ones. I think it was like 12 hours or something like that. It was really long and

Speaker 3 (01:19:17):

It was

Speaker 1 (01:19:17):

Awesome. Oh yeah, absolutely. It was just long. And we did this interview afterwards and then I had to leave and I was again super wired and couldn't sleep, and so pulled an all-nighter, flew home, and then had this podcast with these two dudes that I really looked up to after doing a full nail the mix with Kurt and then staying up all night and flying. It ended up being a great podcast. It ended up being awesome. I haven't quite figured out the line between being too exhausted to make any sense versus just having your inhibitions down a little bit.

Speaker 2 (01:20:04):

You're just in a trance.

Speaker 1 (01:20:05):

Yeah,

Speaker 3 (01:20:05):

Locking in,

Speaker 2 (01:20:06):

Man. Yes, man. I'll tell you, I got a really interesting article. I should probably show you. Sorry. This is way sidetracking you guys. I've been obsessed with this topic basically because I've read this article about what effects sleep deprivation has on the brain, and it was so interesting because I've pulled so many all-nighters and I felt exactly what you're talking about. Why after so much sleep deprivation do I feel more creative or feel whatever it is. And it's so interesting because as the longer you're awake without sleeping without rest, different lobes of your brain begin to shut down at different times. And it's always the same way. Certain ones have a certain amount of stamina or whatever you want to call it, and when those lobes shut down, other lobes of your brain have to take on those tasks. And some of the lobes that take on those tasks are actually better. So for instance, if that's why some people say they get more creative at night, the LOA that deals with creativity naturally is actually not as good at handling it as the one that it passes it off to and it shuts down. So when I read that, I was like, this is crazy fascinating. Although it also said that not sleeping is one of the quickest ways for an early death, it basically said that it just shaves years off your life like nothing else. So

Speaker 3 (01:21:24):

I'm sure sitting in a producer chair all day at a computer is not helping now either.

Speaker 2 (01:21:30):

That's what the gym is for. But yeah, no, I need to send you that article because it's so fascinating and relates to what we're talking about.

Speaker 1 (01:21:38):

That's really, really interesting. I mean, obviously besides death, what's the trade off? Is it something like you get better creativity, but because you're so exhausted, maybe your ability to record it properly will be compromised, for instance,

Speaker 2 (01:21:58):

In judgment? Not only that, but the first lobe to die actually is the one that deals with alertness, obviously, which is why you get tired and language, which is also why if you stay up really late, you'll notice you'll start to slur your speech a lot or you say the wrong words. That's one of the first things that happens that, and obviously feeling tired, and it's because that's always the first lobe to shut down. And what's interesting also is that's also the first one to restore when you sleep. And that's why the power nap is a thing. So if you're super sleep deprived and you take a 20 minute power nap, you can actually restore that first lobe that deals with alertness and language very quickly. So you feel this false sense of alertness and being awake after a power nap, even though you're actually exhausted and need to sleep. But it's because that one lobe that deals with language and alertness has been reactivated that you're

Speaker 3 (01:22:46):

Dang. Isn't that cool? Professor Joe,

Speaker 2 (01:22:49):

Dude, famous. It's very interesting stuff. I need to dig up that article again. I was blown away. We're going to need Lynx.

Speaker 1 (01:22:57):

I would love to read it. I actually think power naps are the best energy drink

Speaker 2 (01:23:03):

For sure. Yeah, because there you go. That's why that's

Speaker 1 (01:23:06):

That's so interesting. But yeah, and they just like an energy drink. They work but only for so long, and you're right back to where you started

Speaker 2 (01:23:15):

Because the other lobes haven't regenerated

Speaker 3 (01:23:17):

Yet. We should have the podcast listeners do a group all nighter and see who comes up with the most creative solutions.

Speaker 1 (01:23:26):

They're about to at the summit, man, there's some people at these who stay up for the entire four days, it seems like. Whoa.

Speaker 3 (01:23:36):

Dang.

Speaker 1 (01:23:37):

Is it in Vegas? It's in Vegas.

Speaker 3 (01:23:39):

Ah, it makes sense now. They're probably augmenting their brains with something

Speaker 1 (01:23:44):

Else. Well, this year, in past years it's been in Orlando, but man,

Speaker 3 (01:23:49):

I was just kidding about that, by

Speaker 1 (01:23:50):

The way. Well, you never know. I just know that I will leave and I'll see people at the bar and then I'll come back later, like seven hours later, and the same people will still be there, and it's just like you're still wearing the same clothes and your facial hair is a little bit longer. I know that you did not go to sleep.

Speaker 3 (01:24:18):

They're tapping into that subconscious lobe.

Speaker 1 (01:24:22):

Maybe I'll set up some sort of test case scenario at this years and find out.

Speaker 3 (01:24:28):

That's a great

Speaker 1 (01:24:29):

Idea. We had talked about having some sort of competition. Maybe I'll do the competition first thing in the morning, one of the days

Speaker 2 (01:24:38):

Just to see what

Speaker 1 (01:24:39):

Happens. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (01:24:41):

That's a good idea.

Speaker 1 (01:24:42):

So what kind of work hours do you pull now? And it seems like you guys are all about optimum performance and working intelligently. Do you have set work hours or do you still do what you need to? How do you define the boundaries? And especially now that name's really starting to get out there, bigger and bigger projects. Where do you draw the line?

Speaker 2 (01:25:10):

At this point actually don't have set work hours because I feel like in order to meet the demand of the clients that are coming in, which they're very picky, I kind of work around them. I will say that I work significantly less hours than I used to, which is fantastic because it's down to about seven or eight a day now, which I feel like is pretty normal. I mean, I'm still guilty of working far over that occasionally, but I try my best not to. I also try, I make it a point to take weekends off if I can. I really try to take Saturday and Sunday off to chill because I really think that's so important to not get burnt out. It's very easy to get to lose motivation and drive and just be in here and I'll catch myself working in sessions where I just do not care and I feel like I hate it, but it's just overworked myself and I feel like the client can tell. I feel like the quality goes down and I'll have to check myself and be like, okay, I need an off day, or I'll need whatever. I'll need to do something, not audio. I need to do something else. And that's also why I make it a point to go to the gym three times a week no matter what. There are just certain things that I have put in place in my life that are non-negotiables, things like that we're used to. That was not the case,

Speaker 1 (01:26:29):

Man. That whole thing about not caring, I stopped.

Speaker 2 (01:26:35):

Sorry for any clients that are listening.

Speaker 1 (01:26:37):

No, it's funny. I stopped doing this because I realized that they didn't understand what I meant. There would be times where it would get to that point where you just can't care anymore. You've worked so long, and just find myself not paying attention. And I just be like, we need to stop. I kind of don't care anymore about what we're doing. And they took it the wrong way. They took it to mean, I don't give a fuck about your project anymore.

Speaker 2 (01:27:05):

Not

Speaker 1 (01:27:06):

What I mean is I'm really tired and I'm unable to concentrate, so we need to stop because I do care. Yes.

Speaker 3 (01:27:15):

And you get diminishing returns the more you're burnt out. And it's like there's a lot of people who I think you're instilled with the work ethic as a kid just to work your ass off and you'll get whatever you want. But at some point with something creative like this and something where you're using your ears especially, you get burnt out. And that is the product, the creativity and what you're hearing and how you're sculpting that. So if you can work four extra hours and delete it all and go back to a session backup from four hours earlier the next morning, and I've done that many times where you just mix something into oblivion and then wake up with fresh ears and end up stopping where you would've stopped the previous day when you were burnt out.

Speaker 2 (01:27:55):

Yep. So true. I do think there's a line though where you have to, I think it's important to compromise on those rules a little bit. For instance, with the Asley dying record that we just did, my God, we were working, it got to be very, very much crunch time. I actually went to the hospital for a major tonsillitis issue that put things back for us big time.

Speaker 3 (01:28:19):

You can't see it right now, but Joseph has an eight inch scar on his neck right below where his beard line is from where they had to extract substance. I don't know,

Speaker 2 (01:28:30):

Whatever it was, can spare the details.

Speaker 3 (01:28:31):

I'll care the details. The details

Speaker 2 (01:28:32):

Are, it's nasty. Exactly. But right after I got out, I'm talking the day after I was back in studio in bandages. But I mean, that's the thing. I feel like you got to be ready for that kind of stuff. I wasn't about to not, because this record was important to me and to Josh, and we

Speaker 3 (01:28:51):

Had a mastering date with Ted Jensen in Nashville, and so we had flights booked and mastering date, and this guy has a pretty stacked schedule. And not only that, but just we were already behind in delivering a record to the label to be able to be reproduced in time. So we knew we had no more chances. So I'll say it now, I've said it already, but Joseph is the only reason why we finished that mix in that record and got it mastered in time for the release date because without him coming in and kicking ass for the last five days before we went to Nashville to master it, we definitely, I don't know, you could have easily just stayed at home and binge watched, lost or whatever any other normal person would have, but you had the drive to come in, so I appreciate that. Thanks, beast.

Speaker 2 (01:29:41):

Yeah, I mean, well, I felt like I cared about it just as much. That's the thing. Even I probably didn't look like it in my face on those days. I was so stoked to go home. But I mean, we were working 10 to 12 hour days just about every day, back to back, no weekends off. I mean, it was brutal, but I mean at the same time, it was pretty,

Speaker 1 (01:30:01):

If you care enough, you'll do it. And I know that's true. I did that once after back surgery. I had a back surgery, obviously it wasn't like this major back surgery where they reassembled me, but still I had back surgery and two days later I was making a record where I could have passed it off to somebody and it was horrible. It sucked so bad, man. It was so terrible. I did have to have somebody set up the mics for me. That was not going to happen, but I couldn't move. It was on painkillers and life sucked. But it was one of these things where nothing was going to stop us from moving forward, not even pain of surgery. So I totally get it. And you should feel good about that scar, by the way. So I shaved my head recently January and a scar was revealed on the back of my head. I have no idea what it came from, but it looks like a scary scar. And I didn't even know it was there. And my girlfriend mentioned that I've got a cool scar. And once recently, I was on an airplane on the line actually to the airplane on the ramp, and it was moving slowly, and some lady was behind me, and then she was like, how was the operation? I was like,

Speaker 2 (01:31:30):

What? Oh, wow.

Speaker 1 (01:31:31):

She was like, how did the operation go for you? I was like, huh? It's like, what? She's like your head. I was like, oh, that was a machete and just left at the

Speaker 2 (01:31:46):

Top. I just, yeah, that's the best way.

Speaker 1 (01:31:49):

Yeah, character.

Speaker 2 (01:31:49):

I've thought about what I'm going to say about my neck too. I'm like, I should feel like I should come up with some stories. A lot of people ask. I can't

Speaker 3 (01:31:55):

Bring myself to talking about that.

Speaker 1 (01:31:57):

Yeah, people are going to ask ptsd, TD, I've been asked a lot about the scar. People will, I'll be hanging out with them and then they'll just bring it up and they'll be like, I was afraid to say anything. It's like, alright, this is obviously a thing and I'm going to need to make it funny. Or tattoo lightning bolts out of it or something.

Speaker 2 (01:32:20):

That's a good idea. I kind of want a neck tattoo now. Cover it up. But at the same time, I also really don't care. Like you said, you just kind of got to own it. And probably every time I see it, I'll just literally think about making the record

Speaker 3 (01:32:32):

Like your joker story.

Speaker 2 (01:32:34):

You want to know I got this scar. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:32:38):

Real question though, how did you stay focused through the pain

Speaker 2 (01:32:45):

With help? Honestly, with help, Josh helped me a lot. I mean, literally, it's funny because somebody posted this in Yara the other day about not being able to mix because of tinnitus. And I was like, man, I couldn't hear anything. At that point. My ears were so messed up. I don't know why, for whatever it was from the surgery, from the whatever, but I was kind worried about it, and I told Josh, but I also didn't want to scare everybody. Phil was up here and we were all just kind of going for it, and I didn't want to be like, guys, I can't hear. I just had to suck it up. And I feel like there's always a way around

Speaker 1 (01:33:19):

It. My pilots don't do that.

Speaker 2 (01:33:20):

Right, exactly. I can't see. But for me, I don't know, I've always been a very positive person. I hate to sulk and think about to feel sorry for myself. So I literally was like, I'm just going to figure it out. I pulled in a lot of references that I trusted and I made sure, because I believe in reference mixing so hard by the way, that's like this everything to me, because you can mix in any room on any speakers. And for me, one of my secret weapons is Apple AirPods to mix on. I literally am obsessed with mixing on those because if you're referencing, you know what I mean, you instantly know relatively how your base sets, how your high end sets everything. And so for that, while my ears were messed up, I was over referencing, I was making sure, I'm like, okay, base sounds a little thin to me naturally, but it's stacking up to what I'm referencing it to. And like I said, I let Josh know and he kind of helped buffer that a little bit. He was really cool about it, and he didn't add any pressure, any stress. And eventually within the next few days, my hearing came back and everything was all good.

Speaker 1 (01:34:22):

Josh, were you secretly like, oh no, the math,

Speaker 3 (01:34:27):

How are

Speaker 1 (01:34:28):

We going to get out of this one?

Speaker 3 (01:34:30):

I'll tell part of the story that Joe left out. Well, so we had a week buffer. We stupidly booked a tour in the spring, or we actually, I think the tour was just booked and we thought the record would be finished being written and recorded by then, but we were just a little behind as it happens when you're trying to write a record and estimating how long that'll take. So we were down there in the last week of getting together guitar overdubs, doing vocal fixes with Tim and I, because we kind of all recorded at our own separate houses. So it was kind of this, Joseph and I were the arbiters of all the files and just getting 'em into one place, and that can be a nightmare in and of itself, but it was all working fine. And then one day Joseph woke up in his neck, was kind of swollen. We're like, oh, weird, but does it hurt? And he's like, no, okay, we can just keep going. A couple days passing every day it's getting worse and worse until the last day. Joseph literally can't even lift his head up because he's just in so much pain. And he's like, oh, I'll be fine. I'm just going to lay down for five minutes.

Speaker 1 (01:35:31):

Just a flesh wound.

Speaker 3 (01:35:33):

Yeah, exactly. And so I'm like, dude, I'm taking you home because we're not going to get real work done, and I'm worried about you because I can see your neck just looks like the same width as your skull right now. And so I get him in the car and I'm driving up here to take him to the hospital near his house in la and he just can't even speak. He's just like, he can't swallow because his throat hurts so bad. And you can probably tell this better than me, but didn't the doctor pretty much say if you would've waited another day or two, it was possible you could have died, right?

Speaker 2 (01:36:04):

Yeah, actually a little less than a day or two because basically infection and fluid. Sorry, this is so nasty. It was climbing up my head basically, and he basically said that if it had have hit my brain, I would've either been brain dead, gone into a coma or died. And it was crazy because the doctors couldn't figure it out and they ended up getting a specialist in, and when he got there, he rushed me into surgery and it was all this thing, and they were like, man, lucky we found it, dude, you almost died or whatever. I was just cool. So when

Speaker 3 (01:36:36):

Artists are just like, this record almost killed me, this record literally almost killed Joe.

Speaker 2 (01:36:43):

But

Speaker 3 (01:36:43):

It wasn't the

Speaker 2 (01:36:43):

Record's fault though. Yeah,

Speaker 1 (01:36:45):

It was weird. So when you came out of surgery, is that when he told you that you almost

Speaker 2 (01:36:51):

Died? Yeah. After.

Speaker 1 (01:36:52):

And then one day later you were just like, let's finish this shit.

Speaker 2 (01:36:56):

Yeah, they let me leave the hospital and then Josh was like, when can you come back to work? And I was like, but I didn't, I was not pushy Josh. Josh wasn't

Speaker 3 (01:37:04):

Pushy. I was like, do not come if you do not feel comfortable with this.

Speaker 2 (01:37:08):

I was obviously going to come though. I mean, yeah. And that first day I was pretty worthless, but I mean, they were very understanding. I mean,

Speaker 1 (01:37:15):

Man, I remember when I got swine flu and I was,

(01:37:20):

Oh God, I got swine flu in 2009 and I was close to death, really bad to be hospitalized for 10 days, and I would get on Facebook. It's the only, I was on tour, so I had my backpack with me. I went in and I got quarantined. All I had was a laptop, a backpack, and I'm quarantined in a strange city. And so I was like, all right, I'm going to get on Facebook. I was like, this is a good time to reconnect with some fans and future clients. And I remember really pissed off. I would tell people what was going on and the response would be like, so do you think you're going to make the show in two days? Stuff like that.

Speaker 2 (01:38:09):

I know exactly how you feel. Same exact

Speaker 1 (01:38:11):

Deal. Don't give a shit that I'm almost dead. Are you making that show or not? We got to know. So yeah,

Speaker 2 (01:38:20):

That's crazy.

Speaker 1 (01:38:21):

It's kind of funny though.

Speaker 2 (01:38:22):

That's how it goes. Actually, the same thing. People were texting me and I just did not have the energy to do all of that. I couldn't respond to people. So I was binge washing this barbecue show for 72 hours. So I literally just posted a picture to my Insta story of me in the hospital, and I guess everyone just kind of figured it out. It looked pretty gnarly. So they kind of spoke for itself and then once

Speaker 3 (01:38:49):

Had dramatic, huh? So dramatic.

Speaker 2 (01:38:51):

Yeah, but it was a lot easier because what he's saying is true. It's hard to be like, sorry, man, I'll get that mixed to you in a week if I'm still alive. You know what I mean? You don't want to pity party it. So it was just a lot easier for me to just be like, this is where I am. Sorry, you have to wait a little bit without me having to just text a million people.

Speaker 1 (01:39:10):

It's really, really weird. There was this, the second or first night that I was there, this was a situation where I didn't even play the show. I went straight to the hospital and the waiting room was full, and I walked in and right at the counter, I just started puking all over them.

Speaker 2 (01:39:29):

Oh God.

Speaker 1 (01:39:30):

Yeah. It was bad. They rushed me back and I could barely talk. I had 15% lung capacity and that night we had to figure out if we're going to take this tour or not. And so I have at two in the morning manager booking agent and other member of the band yelling at me to make a decision. It's like I can't even talk. And they're stuff with the fucking drama. We got to make a decision. And it's like, God,

Speaker 2 (01:40:00):

You're like, bro, I'm telling you,

Speaker 1 (01:40:02):

Those pictures make a difference. I think when you're in that kind of situation, people just won't get it unless they see it.

Speaker 2 (01:40:08):

Right? No kidding. I mean, God, man, you threw up in the lobby. That's a useful tip because made me wait. They made me wait hours. Yeah. I'm literally in a wheelchair in the waiting room, spitting into a bag I can't swallow. But they kept checking my vitals and they're like, I don't know, man. Should puked. Yeah, you're right. They're like, you're oxygenated. We can't put you ahead of the other people. I'm, I literally feel like my head is going to explode. Please do something I should have hurled. Man. That's the key

Speaker 1 (01:40:43):

Er tips and tricks right here. It worked. I mean, yeah, they got me in there really, really fast.

Speaker 2 (01:40:52):

That swine flu.

Speaker 1 (01:40:53):

I'm actually super impressed that you got out and then got right back to it. How long was the record delayed at all?

Speaker 2 (01:41:02):

I was in the hospital for about a week and a half I would say. Right? Is that about right?

Speaker 1 (01:41:05):

Yeah. I

Speaker 2 (01:41:05):

Mean including the three or four days that I was out in San Diego. I mean it realistically, it probably pushed the record. I mean, I don't know if it pushed the record at all.

Speaker 3 (01:41:13):

It didn't push back anything. We had a mastering date. We just had left more time to sit with the mixes and live with them and make sure they were finished before going to mastering. But in this case, we were bouncing final mixes in the taxi or in the Uber on the way to Ted Jenssen's place

Speaker 2 (01:41:30):

On Ted Jenssen's couch. We were bouncing final mixes, actually, which is pretty, and they were like, I don't know if we've seen this before. We asked. We were like, is this common kind of laughing? I'm sure it is. And they were like, no, I don't think so. We were like, cool.

Speaker 3 (01:41:46):

It wasn't a lot of stuff. It was just like a last minute fixes we were getting from the west coast while we were in the hotel room in Nashville the morning of mastering. So

Speaker 2 (01:41:57):

Phil's notes.

Speaker 3 (01:41:57):

Yeah, just kidding, Phil, but also

Speaker 1 (01:42:01):

Not kidding.

Speaker 3 (01:42:03):

Phil knows. Yeah, he knows we love

Speaker 2 (01:42:06):

Him.

Speaker 1 (01:42:06):

That record sounds incredible. It really does.

Speaker 2 (01:42:10):

Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate

Speaker 1 (01:42:11):

It. Thanks, man. I was thoroughly impressed when I heard it. It was one of those things where I was expecting a bunch of different names and then I saw a name I didn't recognize. It was interesting.

Speaker 2 (01:42:26):

Well, I had to compete for sure against some names. It's

Speaker 1 (01:42:28):

Kind of scary. I mean, band's been mixed by best of the best, I think. Not just sick mixers, but mixers who are almost like institutions to an era. Colin.

Speaker 2 (01:42:44):

Andy.

Speaker 1 (01:42:45):

Andy. Yeah. I mean, seriously,

Speaker 2 (01:42:48):

Nali

Speaker 1 (01:42:48):

Doesn't get more heavyweight.

Speaker 2 (01:42:51):

I actually had to compete directly against Colin for this album, which was kind of fun for me. Like I said, competitive for sure. I mean it was,

Speaker 1 (01:43:00):

How was that imposter syndrome treating you during that?

Speaker 2 (01:43:05):

I don't know, man. Honestly, for me, and it might just be the kind of person I am, I felt like I knew that I could deliver more of what they wanted or maybe even needed for this album, as insane as that may sound. I just had kind of a gut feeling. I mean, I have immense respect for Colin Richardson, obviously. I mean, he's a legend as far as I'm concerned. Colin Richardson. But at the same time, he retired, so to speak, for he hasn't been in the game for a while. And I feel like nowadays things are moving faster than ever in terms of what people are doing to mixes. I feel like those kind of guys, as much as they have contributed to the world, I feel like they may not always be you, what I'm trying to say, they may not be as keen on what people are doing nowadays on big mixes.

Speaker 3 (01:43:56):

Well, I'll say this Collin's Mix was incredible. His test mix was amazing. What I think that it lacked and why we ended up ultimately going with what kind of amounts to an in-house record, because Joseph has worked with Asle dying or for the band as a drum tech in the past, we didn't mention that, so we were very close 2009. We were like, he's a part of the family. So I think a lot of times knows what we want before we even know what we want. And I think there was just something about the fresh sounding mix, and even we took a lot of inspiration from the past mixes that the band had because we wanted to have that

Speaker 2 (01:44:37):

Absolutely,

Speaker 3 (01:44:37):

That typical flavor that the mixes always had, super kick drum and guitar heavy as you would expect, and kind of blend it with what a little more modern stuff that we do. So I don't know. I think it was the perfect storm of, we've been trying, as I said earlier with we've been doing test mixes for all these records for this entire time, and I think the stars finally aligned to where not only has Joseph developed his ear even more than he had in the past, but it just was such a great experience to not have that email note filter and just do 'em in person and have the band in the room doing 'em.

Speaker 1 (01:45:17):

It's interesting because sometimes bands do that and things go off the rails. I can think of lots of times where there's a great band, it's been around forever, 10 records, Steve kind of stuff, bands that we all know and love, and at some point main dude is like, I'm producing this one. And it's like, oh dear, you shouldn't have done that.

Speaker 2 (01:45:44):

Right, for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:45:44):

Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:45:45):

Well, there's never really five guys in the room at the same time, I don't think. Which is helpful,

Speaker 2 (01:45:49):

Thank God. Yeah, that would've not been fun for me.

Speaker 1 (01:45:54):

Okay, so here's something I'm wondering about because I always encourage people not to do their own records just because of my experiences doing my own records that it was nothing but pure stress and that it was really hard to get objective. And because of the relationships within the band being what they were is hard to get them to take me seriously. And so I wanted to bring in somebody from the outside who was a better than me, but B could reign everybody in. And I know that that's unique to my situation, but I always felt like also working with students that they would just get way too nitpicky about their own band stuff and their relationships with the band members would prevent stuff from getting productive. And so I've always kind of told people to get someone else, even if you know how to do it, but that's not always the best advice. Sometimes the right move is to do it yourself, but how did you keep it professional, I guess?

Speaker 2 (01:47:01):

Yeah, I mean, I definitely agree that sometimes I can go south, but I feel like in this case I am pretty comfortable with the guys and we would battle a lot on things. I don't have a problem telling Phil that I don't think this is good or telling Josh. And like I said, we would argue about things and I think they had guys every step of the way, kind of like Adam D helped a lot with the drums and with pre-production

Speaker 3 (01:47:26):

Kind of thing, with arrangements, having Adam there during drum tracking as well as Joseph, there was definitely some on the fly decisions made that improved the songs tremendously. And also probably some things that Adam convinced us to cut or whatever as we were going during the drum tracking. So I don't want to understate his role in the production. I wouldn't say it is a traditional producer role by any means, but being there for at least that song structure part was definitely integral to how everything came

Speaker 2 (01:47:58):

Out. And then we had Drew Folk on my own grave and yeah, I mean

Speaker 1 (01:48:03):

He's great.

Speaker 2 (01:48:03):

I just think, oh yeah, he's awesome, dude. I got to work with him on New Bad Wolf stuff as well. Really, really talented dude. I just think that it's important that you have someone to be able to curate everything to a degree. I don't think it always has to be a master, but it has to be somebody to just to be able, like you said, to look at things objectively that's not in the band. And I was that role for the mixing, and then Adam was that role for the tracking and, and then Drew was for writing. You know what I'm saying? So I feel like they knew to have somebody fill that role at every step. I completely agree. I think that's important. And I even think that there are times in this process that maybe could have been a little easier, had maybe members had a little less control, but it is what it is.

Speaker 3 (01:48:48):

Yeah. Well, we were all tracking ourselves. So it becomes, there's this idea of the digital utopia of the present where everyone can track themselves and make it sound amazing after watching a couple of nail the mixes. And that's not a joke. I really think you can do that. But sometimes that freedom, I guess that freedom allows you to second guess yourself a lot more than when you have that person you can kind of bounce ideas off of. And that is why, even though I could attract myself on base, I always wanted Joseph here to reference tuning reference just takes and everything, because I think that ultimately made me work more efficiently. And I think probably moving forward, we wouldn't necessarily have Phil and Nick track themselves 100% like we did. They might want to actually, I just think they all realized towards the end like, oh man, this might've been easier if I just had someone else that was able to be the second voice of reason that had been

Speaker 2 (01:49:45):

Engineering for 10 plus

Speaker 3 (01:49:47):

Years. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:49:47):

Well, I feel like playing guitar or performing is something that best case scenario takes a hundred percent of your attention. And then engineering is something that best case scenario takes a hundred percent of your attention. If you're doing both, you're not giving a hundred percent to either. And that doesn't mean you can't get really good results. I mean, obviously you can get really good results, but are they the best results possible? I'm not so sure. I'm not going to say that. That's never possible. And obviously the record sounds great, so yes, you can do it. And yeah, it turns out great. But at the end of the day, that question would always be in my mind, hypothetically, what if say I was the guitar player on it, what if someone else was keeping me in line so that all I had to do was focus on killing it on guitar?

(01:50:43):

How much better would it be? And I can say that the one time that I got produced by somebody else, a real, someone really good was when SKO recorded my band. And that was the only time I ever had that real producer kind of thing going on where I was just a guitar player and man never played better in my life by far, out of all the recordings I've made on my own of my own playing, that's got to be the highlight. And not by a little bit either. I played a lot better because of it. And so I've always kind of just thought that there's just only so much you can focus when you also got a dog going at the same time, they have to operate.

Speaker 3 (01:51:34):

Yeah, I don't want to sell them those guys short either. I do think that Phil and Nick did an incredible job, and Phil is one of the most methodical people, detail oriented people. I know as we explained it with his notes. So of course it turned out flawless. I'm not saying it could have turned out better in a technical sense, it's just that I think he would probably enjoy it more knowing what he knows now.

Speaker 2 (01:51:56):

And I think the word for us in this case isn't better. It's efficient. Yeah. I think that we could have gotten it done quicker, but I think that we got there for sure. I mean, I was very happy with the end result. I just think that it took a little more time to get there. And on top of that, another angle is I think it helps to have someone track, and especially in terms of guitars, I think it helps to have some track guitars differently because they may have a vision of the whole picture in terms of layers and how many times you want to double something, how many times you want to do that lead, whether it's a harmony left and the root right. You know what I mean? Or maybe you double those. So for me, there was a lot of things that me and Josh were kind of wanting in terms of stacks that it turned into a conversation instead of just like, oh, let's track another one. If we had 'em here and we were recording it, we can kind of steer that ship. But sometimes it's also kind of cool to be given something that you're not expecting also and just work with it. So there's two sides to every coin.

Speaker 3 (01:52:56):

And if anything, it's cool to know that for being, it's kind of a cool place to be a member of the band that's writing the music, but also I guess of the team mixing the music because kind of like two different worlds. But I think it's cool from a band member perspective that it kind is the most unadulterated record we've ever done in terms of the output. But it's something me and Joseph talk about a lot because I personally, I'm not stoked when a band sends a self recorded mix, or sorry, self recorded session to us because there's a lot of, like you were saying, decisions along the way when it comes to what pickup to use, how the attack was done, and how that attack would react with a certain amp or pedal or Kemper profile or whatever. And that's the kind of stuff that I think you can't really replace.

(01:53:47):

And we're seeing a lot in 2019 of our projects being strictly mixing. And it's something that while it's awesome and it's cool, we were talking about you can be anywhere and mixed remotely now on a laptop, which is amazing and it's so awesome. I do still think there's something to going in a studio, choosing a producer you trust and kind of sculpting those things as you go, as opposed to going, let's just take a good DI and get it later. Because while that can work because done it a lot, I personally as an artist and as a producer, like the process when it's a little more in the moment,

Speaker 2 (01:54:25):

I agree.

Speaker 1 (01:54:26):

I got to say something about Phil and Nick, which is that I think they're the exception and not the rule. I mean, I totally am not surprised at all that they delivered on the guitar tracks. Of course they did, but that's, they're Phil and Nick and they are Phil and Nick, of course, they delivered, would you expect anything else out of them? And they have that experience too, to where they have been around enough great people to have picked up what decisions to make.

Speaker 3 (01:55:08):

And I think that's something that maybe I didn't think about until you just said it, is that being able to work with Adam D for two records, bill Stevenson for two records, these guys who are just absolute masters of their craft and mixing, doing mixed notes with Colin Richardson for three records and Andy and all these Andy sne and all these people. I think I guess this breadth of knowledge of tracking and just the way to track cleanly and the way to edit in a realistic way, that's stuff that we have been able to learn. So I guess it's not their first rodeo in that sense. These guys know what they want before they're recording it. So I think yeah, they're definitely the exception for sure, because there's been many projects that we've gotten where we're like, oh man, how did they not hear that that was out of tune? How did they not hear that? That string was totally dead? And you want to always put out your best product, but when you don't get the chance to have that input on the way, it's frustrating sometimes

Speaker 1 (01:56:11):

I think that those questions, why could you not hear that that string was dead? Why could you not hear that? That's out of tune, for instance, all that stuff. I think that that's what happens when you don't have the knowledge to look for that stuff. And your brain is being taxed 50% recording, 50% playing. That means 50% is getting, he is flying right by, I guess I think that even in Phil and Nick's case, while you could make the argument that maybe you only have a hundred percent, right? So if you're doing both things, you're still dividing. But I would say that their diminished attention is still higher than most people's highest just because of how much they know. So I think that just mathematically, you're still dividing yourself, but there's a way to do it, which is to go in armed with a bunch of knowledge so you know exactly what to look for. And I feel like if you've been recorded by enough great people, you'll immediately hear when that guitar is out of tune, you'll immediately hear when the string is dead. That's not something you need to learn anymore. That whereas the person who's never done that, maybe they kind of have an inkling that something's a little off, but maybe they're not keyed in enough to understand just how off or just how much it sours the end product or how, what's the standard operating procedure when a string just won't tune up quite right anymore.

Speaker 2 (01:57:55):

And I also feel that there's just a certain way to track things for pro tools sometimes, whether you're a good guitar player or not. I mean, in this day and age, editing is a big piece of it period. Especially in the metal world. I mean, some stuff is just going to get edited You, you're probably going to punch your pick squeals, you know what I mean? That kind of stuff. You're probably going to nudge around breakdown chugs and stuff like that. I mean, it's just going to happen. And I feel like there is a certain way to track that kind of stuff to make it as easy as possible to move stuff around and to get it perfect than to just play through it. And so it's a lot easier to get that stuff when you're in control of it from the beginning.

Speaker 1 (01:58:36):

I have known people though, who take that approach, who end up spending one year on the same four songs.

Speaker 2 (01:58:46):

Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:58:47):

Yeah, because nobody telling them to chill already. It's not going to get more perfect than it already is. It's perfect how much more perfect and perfect you think perfect can get.

Speaker 2 (01:59:00):

Yeah, no, for sure. I mean, we have a such story about that

Speaker 3 (01:59:04):

As well. Yeah, we try to keep the fine line between, you want to make sure that what you're doing is possible to be played and that it was actually able to be played at some point. But I think sometimes, and I'm totally guilty of this, I will nail a vocal take in Joseph's opinion, but in my opinion, I'm like, that sounds 5 cents flat or 10 cents flat. I know I could do it better and I'll do it 10 more times and I'll finally get it perfectly in tune, but it'll have 75% of the character of the one that was slightly flat, which would be easily augmented by autotune or what have you. So I think even knowing what I know and from tracking so many singers at this point and knowing that, that there's that ego involved of I can do it better. And I think just, yeah, if you have somebody to bounce that off of, you're not going to go down that road and get stuck the same way that maybe if you have full freedom and you're just tracking yourself eight hours a day.

Speaker 1 (02:00:02):

It's quite a trap though, because we're bred to not want to be shitty, I guess. I don't know how to say it more eloquently, but it sounds beautiful to me. If we want things to be as amazing as possible, so if we know we can make it better and we're driven people, then we're going to want to keep going until it's better. But it's just so hard to sometimes realize that it already is better.

Speaker 2 (02:00:31):

Yeah, better is in the eye of the beholder for sure. I mean, for me, some things are golden and whoever a tracked it or whatever, they're not happy with it. Different people see different things in each take, I guess.

Speaker 3 (02:00:43):

Yeah, I think it's good to strike the balance for, you want to be proud of your take. It's going to be on there for eternity at this point on Spotify, so I get it. I think it's just being efficient with it and working smart and working with what realistically you can do better if you do it 20 times or if you're just going to get more of the same and have kind of a lateral take, I guess.

Speaker 1 (02:01:07):

How do you feel that out?

Speaker 3 (02:01:08):

I mean, I take a lot of input from Joseph. I definitely over the years have gotten better at tracking. I remember the first time tracking vocals with Adam D was such a trip. He would just, and I needed this tough love. He would say things like, oh wow, imagine what you sound like. Live when a really bad note. And same thing with the guitarists too. That was the first time they had tracked with Adam was on an ocean between us. So we were all given a very quick tough love from Adam about just, holy shit, our tuning and attack that. Yeah. He was just like, imagine what you guys sound like live, but it's Adam D so you don't feel offended. He says stuff like that all the time. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:01:45):

Yeah. That's so brutal. It's so hilarious. So funny though though.

Speaker 3 (02:01:48):

So funny. But it's like disarming when it's said in a funny way because it's, it's Adam d, I can't really explain it, but he can tell you that you suck and you still think it's funny. I don't know. But I think over the years, because of that, got better at knowing instantly pretty much when it's a good take or not. And then if I am kind of on the fence and going down the rabbit hole, if I can do it better, I can do it better and it's not getting better. Joseph will usually tell me,

Speaker 2 (02:02:13):

Yeah, I have a little bit of a different method. I mean, I obviously want every singer that I'm working with to sound confident. I mean, that's the main thing, right with vocalists is that you want them to sound confident. And that's kind of really the main thing that I'm looking for in a take because not that I want to have to Auto-Tune things to Helen back, but I know that I can and I know that it'll be seamless and I will take, I would rather have a take that has more passion and I'd rather have the delivery over something more pitch perfect because I can just fix it. So how I like to do things is just be like, trust me. Just give me this. Do this. Let me do it. Even if they're not happy, just let's double it. Trust me, double it, do this

Speaker 3 (02:02:53):

And then decide after.

Speaker 2 (02:02:54):

And yeah, and let me do my thing to it, listen to it. And nine times out of 10, they're stoked. If they're not, then let's punch. Let's redo it. You know

Speaker 3 (02:03:01):

What I mean? It's a vulnerable place to be when you're hearing your vocal just so bare and probably way louder than the music if you're tracking. So I think it puts it in perspective to when maybe it was a little pitchy or timing was a little off. If you within reason edit it into something that was close to the original intent, then I think that there's nothing wrong with that. That's why we have pro tools.

Speaker 1 (02:03:26):

You're saying that you trust Joseph, and that makes sense to me because you guys have that relationship and trust is, in my opinion, one of the most important things that a producer mixer, just guy that's in charge can develop with people. He, he's working with Joseph. For you, it seems like knowing Josh for as long as you did, you had that trust already built in also because you've been proving yourself for years and he's known that. But how did you gain the trust of the other guys? And the reason I'm asking that is because it seems to me in Josh's case, it would probably be a lot easier to have him understand that working with you makes the most sense right off the bat because of that shared history. But what about with the other dudes who don't have that shared history with you? How did you get to that level of trust?

Speaker 2 (02:04:32):

I feel like it's a combination of a lot of things. I think that it starts with them hearing what you've done before, so they have an expectation that you're good or I would hope so that if that's why they're booking a session with you or coming to you in the first place. So I feel like they have an expectation in their mind already of like, okay, this guy's good. Let's see how this goes. And then for me, I think that it's very important to not be arrogant, but show them that I am confident in what I'm doing and make sure that they feel comfortable. I've got this kind of thing instead of, I feel like the way that you present yourself as an engineer has a lot to do with everything. I mean, if they come in and I'm sitting here hunched over and I don't

Speaker 3 (02:05:12):

Talk, you speak up if you disagree or anything.

Speaker 2 (02:05:13):

Yeah, yeah, exactly right. I feel like I've always been a very opinionated person and I'm really good at speaking that and not really caring too much about their feelings. I mean, I think that you should a little bit to a degree. Like I said, I don't want to break them down. They've got to be confident. They got to be stoked. So I will obviously do the opposite and reward people for good takes and be like, oh man, that was crazy. Good. You're killing it and get them stoked. But on the other hand, you have to be honest and you have to prove yourself very quickly. And I feel that when I start recording vocals, I'm very forward with people. I tell them exactly what I want. I kind of help them along the way, almost like I'm carrying them. I mean, of course it depends on the singer always.

(02:05:52):

It's always going to, but that's my typical approach. Then after they hear a comped chorus, after they hear whatever they've done, they're stoked instantly because I also like to kind of tune on the fly. So I comp and tune on the fly. So if they're in the booth tracking, I'll be pulling takes. I'll be comping, comping while they're in their tracking. They don't even know it. They come in, give me a minute to Auto-Tune it, vocal line it, get it going. Then they hear it and instantly their expectations have been met. You know what I mean? Now they trust me. Now they're ready to go back in. And then after one session, they know they can count on me to deliver. I guess

Speaker 1 (02:06:30):

I've always said this, that in order to get your way in a musical situation, nothing is more powerful than actually hitting play and having what comes out of the speakers. Prove your point.

Speaker 3 (02:06:44):

Exactly. I totally agree. And one thing that I've found working here with Joseph on things and just being present or even just on my own vocal sessions, is there's something really powerful about letting someone go down a bad idea rabbit hole, because that also earns trust. Sometimes I know instantly that someone's idea is objectively terrible, but I want to let them explore it within reason, because that, I guess give and take relationship establishes trust as well. So you want to come across as confident in what you're doing, but you also want to let them know that their input is valuable as well. Because I think the quickest way to shut someone down and get some really uninspired takes is to make it feel like you're directing them like a puppeteer. It needs to be give and take. There's a good

Speaker 2 (02:07:32):

Balance. No, I agree.

Speaker 1 (02:07:35):

Do you have any tips for producers that are starting out on how they can gain trust quickly? I feel like you still have to do it at the level you're at Tommy Vex, and I know Tommy, that guy does not trust producers very much. So you better be on your game when he's coming in. And same with anybody at this kind of level. Even if they know your work and are friends with you, it's still game on when you're in the studio,

(02:08:07):

But you're probably because of your reputation and body of work in some ways, even though the stakes are higher, they're going to give you more of a chance. And sometimes people starting out with local bands are going to get for their ideas. I think that a pro who maybe they've never worked with you before and maybe you only have an hour to prove yourself, but during that hour, more than likely, they're going to assess what you've got and check your ideas out and give it a shot. Whereas in the local scenario, they might have a lot longer than an hour, but the band is not going to listen to any ideas at first or anything because the person they're working with has no real track record yet. For sure. And how did you establish that kind of trust back in the local days, and how do you go about establishing trust when you don't have credits?

Speaker 2 (02:09:07):

That's a really good question because I mean, for me, I think it's something that kind of came naturally to me, but I mean, I've definitely been able to look back and kind of analyze and figure out what it was that I did. And speaking of Tommy ve, I mean there we fought a lot. We butted heads a lot, but I think that why am I not surprised? Ultimately what surprised? Yeah. But that is exactly what gained his trust, because what happened was is that he realized we were on the same page. I was just trying to get him there, and he was stubborn, and we butted heads and he was like, oh, yeah, I like this. And we still do it to this day. That's kind of what makes the magic because, and I feel like a lot of people probably wouldn't speak up to 'em or say how they felt, but I just did. And like I said, we've been on the same page. But in terms of what you were saying starting out, because I do agree that's tough and I think that you have to have to treat every singer differently, like I said, or not just singer, whoever. You're recording every member differently based on their personality type. I

Speaker 3 (02:10:10):

Think you're kind of a therapist as well as an engineer sometimes.

Speaker 2 (02:10:13):

Yeah, absolutely. I think what I said before, you have to make them feel comfortable. And I think there's a different way to do that with everybody. So it's not about just taking the reins and if that's not your thing, especially if you're just starting out, you don't really have the experience under your belt or that confidence that I was talking about to know that, to be able to do that. But you can still feel out, make them feel comfortable, figure out what they want. And a lot of times people don't know what they want, especially singers, no offense to them. I mean, maybe they think they do, but I think that the idea is, like I said, you just have to help them feel comfortable, make them feel that you have them, that you can help them and get where they need to be. Because if they remember that, if they leave your session feeling that about you, they're going to come back If they felt uncomfortable, that's it. It's over. It doesn't matter. Even if you were good in the end, if they felt uncomfortable, they're just not going to call you back.

Speaker 3 (02:11:01):

I think something that helped us a lot as well in the beginning, gaining trust even before I had come out here to join the band or anything, was being able to do productions on our own. And I know not everybody that produces or mixes is necessarily a musician these days, but I think a lot of 'em are. And whether it's getting, I know you guys do the mixed competitions each month, which are really cool, something like that. Getting your hands on some really good stems or just any stems and mixing those and having them on tap to show someone who might be interested could always help. Or in our case, we just recorded our own stuff to a standard that we thought was awesome at the time, which definitely would not be awesome by our standards now. But I think as far as getting our name out in Birmingham, at the time it was just our own bands and putting as much work and time into those bands and getting it to sound as good as we could at that particular time.

Speaker 1 (02:12:00):

I agree with you. I tell people that all the time, that that's, if you're a musician, that right there is such a great tool for establishing yourself as a producer.

Speaker 2 (02:12:13):

Totally. Yeah. You got to practice and mess around because you have to just be better than the other guy. Period. In addition to making them feel comfortable, you have to make yourself stand out. So they go, oh man, I've never sounded better than when I went to this person. You know what I mean? And I feel like if you're not getting a whole lot of work, if you're just starting out, I mean, like Josh said, we were kind of obsessed with it. I was so obsessed with it. I didn't really hang out with anybody. You were

Speaker 3 (02:12:45):

Pausing YouTube videos and zooming in, like enhance, enhance, enhance to see the distress settings on CLA videos

Speaker 1 (02:12:52):

Psychopath. That's good.

Speaker 2 (02:12:54):

Yeah, I mean, I always encourage that though. I feel like you get back what you put into something. So if you're putting in 30% of your life to recording this, those are the returns you're going to get. So for me, I just kind of stopped hanging out with people unless they wanted to come over and sit with me while I'm on my computer, which Josh fortunately was one of those guys. Man, I'm

Speaker 1 (02:13:17):

Sorry. I always tell people that if they really want to make something work, they got to get obsessed. I use that word too. I've been coaching somebody that is trying to get a business off the ground online as well. And the number one thing I'm trying to get through his head is that he's got to go all in in mentally, not all in to what other people might think is all in, but I mean all in where you know that you are obsessed. Kind of like what you were just saying about not just passively watching a YouTube video so that you give yourself a dopamine hit and feel like you are doing something productive like people do and they watch documentaries or YouTube videos, but actually using the YouTube video to learn something and then apply it in real life, which is the proper way to do it. Most people don't do that. Most people don't actually take it to that level.

Speaker 2 (02:14:24):

Well, yeah, it goes back to what we were talking about before because most people think that they have more of their shit together than they really do, so they're not as eager to learn. I think that that goes hand in hand with not feeling adequate. You know what I'm saying? You are always hunting for knowledge and trying to learn from people that you know are better than you.

Speaker 3 (02:14:41):

Well, dude, I find myself going even to this day back to reference some of my favorite moments from the nail, the mixes that I have some really awesome stuff from the Kurt Ballou with his turbo snare thing

Speaker 4 (02:14:54):

That

Speaker 3 (02:14:54):

I loved, the parallel snare thing. And then I'll still go back and check out some of NA's stuff on his nail the mix, which is probably the one that I've referenced the most. It's something that we still do to this day with mix with the masters. We'll get some of those still. And there's not to plug another company, sorry. It's okay.

Speaker 1 (02:15:16):

They're out there. I'm sure that most people have watched their stuff too.

Speaker 3 (02:15:22):

Yeah. But I think it's like, I guess there's no way to really, if you don't have that inherent obsession, I don't know how you get it other than just practicing and practicing. But luckily me and Joseph in different areas have always been in that obsess, whether it was through Gear or Joseph tabbing out the entire silent circus. Bt Bam record on Guitar Pro when he was like 16. Yeah, literally he's emailing them to Paul Wagoner and like,

Speaker 2 (02:15:49):

Hey, man. Yeah, yeah. I emailed it to Paul Wa, he said, I got every note, right? The only thing that I got wrong was some of the fingering on the guitar.

Speaker 3 (02:15:59):

But yeah, anyways, it's like that obsession just I think comes natural to some people, but I also think you can get there. I've become more obsessed with things that I wasn't inherently, so I think everybody has a chance.

Speaker 1 (02:16:11):

How did you do that? I actually want to know, do you know what, is there a mental process you took to make yourself more success?

Speaker 3 (02:16:20):

I want to know that

Speaker 2 (02:16:21):

I can't force

Speaker 3 (02:16:22):

Obsession. It started out for me, I was just obsessed with gear first. When I was in seventh grade, I had every Guitar World and musician's friend, and I was circling and drawing my future rigs, like 15 Marshall Cabs. I do still do that, but I think once I saw Joseph getting to this point where his mixes were radio quality, I was like, oh, okay, I'm going to get there. So I actually began my mixing journey a lot later, probably around 2013, and I'm still on that journey. I mean, Joseph's still on the journey too. We are constantly still referencing that stuff. So I think it's getting used to choosing a goal and getting addicted to meeting a goal. Maybe that's the way you get obsessed with something. I definitely was not obsessed with mixing or mixing techniques.

Speaker 2 (02:17:07):

You have to love the journey too. I think you have to. For me, it's all about the journey. It's less about the end result for me than it is about actually the journey. I know. I mean, that may sound crazy to you. That's

Speaker 4 (02:17:18):

Deep, man.

Speaker 2 (02:17:18):

That's deep. Well, I mean, seriously, if you don't love the process, it's just never going to last.

Speaker 4 (02:17:23):

That's true.

Speaker 2 (02:17:24):

So many people want to do something to get somewhere. People go, I want to own a successful studio. It's like, all right, that's cool. Do you actually enjoy what it takes to get that? Do you actually enjoy the day-to-day? Because if you don't, you're never, I believe that you're never

Speaker 1 (02:17:38):

Going to, honestly, I don't think there's any enjoyment in the actual result almost ever with anything. Exactly.

Speaker 3 (02:17:45):

I'm never exactly happy with anything. I think there's the famous saying of you never finish a mix. You just let go of it and give it to someone else. True. You are never going to be satisfied with it. You just got to stop working on it.

Speaker 1 (02:17:58):

It's this weird thing. I think it it's that same territory of that 90 seconds to feel good about yourself thing. That's kind of how I feel about enjoying results is like, you achieve this thing and cool, but then it's not, it's like, I don't know how to explain this. It's not real anymore. It is dead to me

Speaker 2 (02:18:25):

Almost. And it doesn't mean what you thought it would or it doesn't feel the way you thought it would before you had it.

Speaker 1 (02:18:30):

It just doesn't matter anymore. You did it. It is literally dead to me at that point. And there's been some goals lately that over the past few years that URM has crushed that at one point in time seemed so ridiculous. They seemed so ridiculous. And now it's been years since we crushed that. And I don't know, I have a hard time putting myself in a mind state where that goal seems ridiculous and insurmountable. It's dead to me now. And so there's only so long that I feel like you can really properly enjoy a result before you're one of those people that gets comfortable and loses in the end.

Speaker 2 (02:19:20):

I mean, 10 years ago never would've thought that I would've gotten a platinum record. And then when I got it, I was like, cool, cool. Now where I want more. You know what I mean? It's like pathetic that I only have one. You know what I'm saying? So it's exactly what you're saying. Just when you get it, it's just onto the

Speaker 1 (02:19:41):

Next, don't you feel doesn't really mean anything about it.

Speaker 2 (02:19:44):

Yes. Because other people will be talking about it more than you, and you're just like, so what? It literally doesn't matter. It's just what you do with it after that.

Speaker 1 (02:19:52):

Yeah. Interesting. I feel bad talking about that kind of stuff sometimes. I don't want to sound like an asshole, but for sure.

Speaker 3 (02:20:01):

No, I agree completely. Well, there was a long conversation about the plaques putting up the plaques that Asle D got over the years from Metal Blade for whatever. And for me, I felt kind of douchey just hanging up these things that are just presented to Josh Gilbert, 1 million records sold or whatever. Because for me, I don't need to see that every day. Not going to, I've already moved on from it, you know what I mean? But I can acknowledge that other people will see a platinum plaque or one of those metal blade plaques and they're stoked. So it's important for clients. I need to see,

Speaker 1 (02:20:35):

I was actually getting ready to ask you about that. I think that being in a big band is maybe the ultimate version of that. That's something that tons of people dream about and very few people get to do, but then you get to do it and it's regular life. So

Speaker 3 (02:20:53):

Yeah, I mean, I think that we were all fortunate to have pretty decent, I guess, heads on our shoulders when it came to the, I guess, amount of recognition we got as a band. Because when everything was forced to stop, we all acclimated back to regular life pretty flawlessly. Phil was tour managing bands and actual, he manages author and Punisher the artist, which is sick. Jordan and Nick have a venue down in San Diego called Brick by Brick. And I was doing the studio stuff and also working at a bar, doing what I needed to do while I needed to do it. So it's like, luckily, I think we never really let it get to the point where I looked at those accomplishments and felt like I'm satisfied with where I'm at. And it kind of speaks to the point that Joseph were making that you have these goals.

(02:21:56):

Everybody's like, cool, I want to get nominated for a Grammy. And I guess in a really cool, but also a really weird way. We got nominated for a Grammy when I was 20 years old. So very early in life, this kind of end game sort of moment happened. We didn't win, obviously Slayer one, I think. But those kind of moments, it was displayed to me very early on that those are just sort of, it's like your trophy from winning the spelling bee in fifth grade. It's really sick for a few minutes, but you put it on the shelf and you got to move on and you got to keep doing stuff. I guess. So I think I'm just rambling.

Speaker 1 (02:22:32):

It's weird though because well, I totally agree with you, but I know that for some people who have not achieved it, they're like, what the hell are you talking about? You're nuts. But I think that the spelling bee example is perfect example. It is kind of like that. Or winning a karate tournament or something.

Speaker 3 (02:22:53):

I actually did win my fifth grade spelling bee. That's why I used that example.

Speaker 2 (02:22:58):

I interned one spelling bee in my life and lost in the first words. There you go.

Speaker 1 (02:23:02):

I feel that way about lots of things. I felt that way when I got a car that I liked. I felt that way sometimes if I got put up in a really nice hotel, you get in and it's really awesome, and then five minutes later don't give a shit anymore. I don't think it's a matter of not appreciating things. It's a matter of just having this mental state of always wanting more and nothing ever being good enough. And I think if you keep that up, you're always going to want to get better. But the consequence is that nothing's ever good enough, and it's almost like

Speaker 2 (02:23:41):

Got to strike the balance. It's kind of sad really?

Speaker 1 (02:23:43):

It's hard though,

Speaker 2 (02:23:43):

Man. You wonder if you're ever going to be satisfied.

Speaker 1 (02:23:46):

How do you strike the balance though?

Speaker 2 (02:23:48):

I don't know. That's why I said it's important to acknowledge it. I think it is important because it's like if you don't, when do you have time to be happy?

Speaker 3 (02:23:57):

Right. Well, I want to say this too, because that could all come off as a very humble brag, like Joseph's platinum comment. The Grammy's thing could come off as a humble brag, but I think what it really is is it's also for me at least, I don't want to put so much stock into those things that they define what makes me happy in life. Because I felt that to an extent when the band went away for a while when you put your entire existence and meaning into something like that. So I think you guys are saying maybe, and maybe we're getting onto something here, is that the journey is actually what we are all needing to be focused on. Exactly. Instead of the end goal because you get the end goal and then

Speaker 2 (02:24:43):

The goal is to be happy, really. You know what I mean? Right. That's the thing. If we're never appreciating these things, then we're never going to be happy,

Speaker 1 (02:24:50):

Dude. I don't think it's a humble brag at all. I just think it's one of these things that some people do humble brag, so you don't want to go into that territory. And I understand that, but I don't think you're humble bragging,

Speaker 3 (02:25:05):

Just making sure. I just

Speaker 1 (02:25:06):

Feel like there's, for instance, when I guess URM had been successful for a few years, I got this apartment that was really, really nice. It was kind of like this dream apartment that I had dreamt about having a place like this. And in that apartment I was super depressed and I gained a bunch of weight and life sucked. And I decided to get rid of it and totally simplify my life and dedicate myself to health and get rid of all these material things. And I'm way happier now, which I'm living in a place that I don't like, but on purpose because I tried living in a place that was kind of like the dream place, and I was so fucking miserable that I gained like a hundred pounds and hated my life even though I was successful. And so I have very real life experience with getting these things that people do brag about or humble brag about, but actually experiencing that they don't mean shit.

Speaker 3 (02:26:08):

Well, we live in a world that glorifies all that stuff. You only curate your social media to show those endgame moments. So you just think everyone's achieving them at all times.

Speaker 1 (02:26:19):

Yeah, they can go away in a heartbeat. And then what? Right? You're stuck with what actually matters, which is you and the people around you. And so I do think that getting obsessed with whatever journey it is you're on, and finding a way to always want more and always want more is the, I think you're right, Joseph. I do think that's the happiness. I think that if you think that it's humble bragging to say this, you just haven't experienced it. That's all there is to it. So I get it.

(02:26:51):

But you just think about something you did win at. Everybody's wanted something, I'm sure. And just think about that and how long did that feeling last for whatever it was. Maybe you didn't get a Grammy nomination, but what did you win? At some point, you get a date with someone you really liked or played some show you really liked or aced a test or got a job that you were hoping you could get. Whatever it is. It doesn't have to be an end game moment, but any sort of win and ask yourself, how long does that feeling last for? And I think that most people, if they're being honest, will admit that it doesn't last that long. And I think that the point of talking about the end game moments in relation to that is to point out that it doesn't change. It doesn't matter if it's the fifth grade spelling be or a Grammy or getting a dream apartment or getting your first apartment. The feeling of getting them is exactly the same always. I feel like it's cool for a sec. When I got my first apartment that I could pay for by myself, that was a cool feeling for about five minutes.

Speaker 2 (02:27:54):

Oh yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:27:55):

But it felt exactly the same as getting the dream apartment. But after five minutes, it was like, all right, it's dead to me

Speaker 3 (02:28:02):

The first of the month. And you get bummed.

Speaker 2 (02:28:04):

It's so good to be aware of that because it feels kind like common knowledge, but it's really not. I feel like most people are always seeking that next thing, and it's just such a trap you can get into. I mean, I've definitely been there and I feel like you said the moment that you can be aware of that, you can take control of that and you can actually, I would say that I haven't really found true happiness until the past two years where I'm just like, man, I just love life right now. And that just makes everything else better. It makes not just your quality of life, but I mean your job, it makes you're able to do what you do better just because you are happier and you're not living from one success to the next. It's just the fact that you love the process is everything.

Speaker 3 (02:28:50):

And this is help for me guys. This is just self-help for me listening to you guys talk about this. This is just turned into a sweet group therapy.

Speaker 1 (02:28:58):

Cool. I'll send you an invoice afterwards just to shoot me your PayPal. It's 1 75 an hour, and I do take insurance, so it's cool. No, but what changed though? You're saying that you figured out happiness and how to love the process. What's different in the past two years versus all the other years?

Speaker 2 (02:29:22):

That's a great question. That's a great question. I don't know. I mean, I was engaged and with one girl for seven years and we split, and I feel like after that, and it's a weird thing to bring up, but after that, my perspective of everything kind of changed. I know that's weird.

Speaker 1 (02:29:41):

No, not at all.

Speaker 2 (02:29:42):

After that happened, I just realized during that whole time was just viewing life the wrong way. I was doing the complete opposite. I wasn't stoked at all about the day-to-day. It was all about the next victory or how do I get, I don't know. I was so obsessed with leveling up. I don't know that I wasn't able to enjoy it. I was doing every day. I was miserable. And that happened and it just turned everything upside down in such a positive way. I didn't get all that bummed out. I was just kind of like, oh, okay. Well this is very interesting. I didn't see this coming and I was able to because I feel like it's just all perspective. It's just how you look at stuff. And I don't know, I just started seeing things differently and my life improved. I don't know. It's not really a good answer. But yeah, I don't know. There wasn't really one thing that I did. I just started to realize I found a way to appreciate what I was actually doing instead of just waiting for the next big accomplishment. And then, sorry, go ahead. And then I found more accomplishments. I was going to say, I found that more accomplishments came when I, you know what I mean? That's the thing. Once I was able to have that shift, not only was I happier, but everything else, it just ramped up. I

Speaker 1 (02:31:07):

Think being in the wrong relationship can severely hurt our quality of life. And I mean, I don't think that that's a crazy thing to say at all. Getting out of the wrong relationship, that's almost a decade long. That's an opportunity to reinvent how you look at everything.

Speaker 2 (02:31:26):

Yeah, absolutely. And that is what caused the shake up, caused me to just stop thinking about life in the same way.

Speaker 1 (02:31:34):

I think that a huge changes our known to do that for people. And lots of times when people are talking about huge defining moments, it's either somebody died, somebody almost died, got broken up with or something. But the breakup is always held up as one of those types of pivotal things. So I don't think it's that weird to hear someone be like, well, shit was weird and then I broke up with this girl and it got way better.

Speaker 2 (02:32:07):

Well, I think the thing is, I just had some time to think about it more. I think I was just way more concerned with the end game at that time. That's kind of all I was thinking about. I was just like, what's it going to take? Where am I going to have to be to where I'm like, this is cool. Am I going to have to be a multimillionaire? Am I going to have to have all this stuff? You know what I mean? I kind of put the wrong stuff in my head about what I needed to feel successful, and then I just realized that that's the last thing I need. Because every time you get something, like you said, it doesn't mean anything. That's why I would never want to be just given a million dollars, as awesome as that would sound, I would just have to be no way. Because it, you'd be over it in a day and it would feel like nothing and you'd find a reason to. You know what I mean?

Speaker 3 (02:32:54):

Dang, dude, I was about to give you a million

Speaker 2 (02:32:55):

Dollars after this podcast, I was just saying would've been to

Speaker 1 (02:32:58):

Me instead.

Speaker 2 (02:32:59):

Okay,

Speaker 3 (02:33:00):

Sure.

Speaker 2 (02:33:01):

For real though. I'm for real. I genuinely think that would just be poison. I think that if you just got that for nothing, if you didn't earn it, it would just be poisoned. Because I think that the earning is everything. And that was just what I realized. I was like, man, I am happy. This is rad. I'm getting to do what I want for a job in this awesome city. I live in a great place. I don't know, like I said, it just perspective shift, just kind of realizing that I'm not shooting for such ridiculous things anymore, that literally don't mean anything if I get there, cool, that's great, but really it's about loving what I'm doing now, and I guess someone would call that being present. I don't know.

Speaker 1 (02:33:40):

I think so. Well, I think this is a good time to ask some questions from the audience.

Speaker 2 (02:33:45):

Sure.

Speaker 1 (02:33:46):

Cool. Alright. This one is from Jordan Weathered, which is what exactly went into the bass tone on Awakened. That's hands down my favorite bass tone on any album ever.

Speaker 3 (02:33:55):

Nice. Well, a lot of what went into that bass tone has to do with Bill Stevenson. He's the owner and the producer over at the blasting room along with Jason Livermore. But if you guys are familiar with the band Rise Against, I think they probably have one of the sickest bass tones of all time. If you listen to any of their songs on the radio, the bass is super present all the time. And there was a point around 2011 where I was like, dang it, you can't hear the bass on any Asley dying records. So as we were looking through producers and Bill Stevenson's name continued to come up and I did more research. I realized, alright, I'm going to put all my support behind Bill because I want the stick bass tone. And plus he's legendary drummer of Black Flag and Descendants and all, he's Bill Stevenson.

(02:34:44):

And anyway, he has this really interesting way of doing bass where it was five channels, actually, if you can believe it. It was a DI channel, a sand, RBI. It was an SVT classic with a tube screamer. So it was a little crunchy but not overtly distorted. Then an SVT four that was set super clean and then a PV 65 0 5 through a Mesa cab, all that blended together into one insane tone. And with all the phase issues you can imagine, actually he moved the mics around to fix the phase. He's that old school that we recorded all those in real time. This wasn't

Speaker 1 (02:35:25):

Amped on,

Speaker 3 (02:35:25):

It was all summed. Yeah, it was all summed. Well, I wouldn't say it was summed because he still tracked it all separately.

Speaker 1 (02:35:31):

Okay.

Speaker 3 (02:35:32):

Separate channels. We have different stems for sure. Yeah, we have different stems, but man, it was pretty awesome to watch him work because I think you find yourself in 2019 when you just take a DI and you have all these combinations, you actually have so many options now. It's hard to nail down anything. But with Bill, we literally spent one whole day just moving mics around, moving cabs around. Oh, and by the way, it was through Aguilar cabs. It had two Aguilar DB four 10 cabs, and I think they were just with Audio Technica condensers, like 40 forties or something. Like nothing too crazy for the cabs, just about four feet away from the grill. But have fun trying to

Speaker 1 (02:36:11):

Replicate that.

Speaker 3 (02:36:12):

Yeah, you'll never replicate this

Speaker 1 (02:36:13):

Unless you got a good memory there.

Speaker 3 (02:36:15):

I took very specific notes because like I said, we're obsessed with this stuff. So I took pictures of every single lamp setting and everything. But yeah, I'm probably giving away the secret sauce for Bill. So sorry if Bill hears this or anybody at the blasting room, but you still won't get it to sound like

Speaker 1 (02:36:32):

Him. I was going to say, they may hear that, but good luck just doing it,

Speaker 3 (02:36:37):

Saying, well, and another crucial element that was the Getty Lee, the Fender Getty Lee base, just fully stock and

Speaker 2 (02:36:44):

Almost always the Getty Lee secret weapon.

Speaker 3 (02:36:46):

Yeah, I agree. That's probably my favorite capturing of bass because I would actually say that Bill was his ear for bass. I've never met someone who's tuning ability could match that, or just ability to discern tuning. This is an insane thing that we did. When you do it this way, when you're tracking five different channels, there's no pitch correction possible. You can't Auto-Tune or really Melaine 65 0 5 that's playing bass, no matter how hard you try, and even if you could autotune five channels separately, it would probably just create a nightmare of phase. Who knows? But we had to, on the last ring outs of songs, for example, like the natural dip in pitch of a base string. When you hit it on the attack, it goes a little sharp and then falls flat. He would literally make me ride the tuning peg. We would be watching it on a tuner as it fell flat, and I would tune up the peg as the song sustained so that, yeah, so that the sustain of the base string matched the sustained note of the guitar. It was,

Speaker 2 (02:37:54):

Yeah, that's insane.

Speaker 3 (02:37:55):

Was six hours a song for bass? Insane. But I mean, I'm definitely the most proud of that, or not the most proud. I mean, I'm definitely proud of the record we did up here, but when I think back to that process and just know that there's absolutely no pitch correction, I'm pretty blown away by that.

Speaker 1 (02:38:11):

Wow. I'm just impressed by how well you remember that.

Speaker 3 (02:38:18):

I'm telling you, man, like Rain Man,

Speaker 1 (02:38:22):

I'm just blown he remember

Speaker 2 (02:38:23):

That stuff way more than I do.

Speaker 1 (02:38:25):

Alright, here's one from Colby, which is what drums or samples were used on Shape by Fire. How did you get that huge snare crack since Nali did the first single? Did you try to follow his mix or go with it your own way? Thank you.

Speaker 2 (02:38:40):

Okay. So no, we did not try to follow Nly on that. I was actually competing with Nelly on that. Anyways, so most of the magic of that came from the live snare itself. We definitely used samples, but honestly, most of what you're hearing, unlike almost all of the power is coming from the actual snare. And Josh, you'll have to remind me what we used because it wasn't a black beauty.

Speaker 3 (02:39:02):

No, it is a black

Speaker 2 (02:39:03):

With a die cast tube. That's what it was. We used a black beauty with cast stoops, and we were very meticulous with the tuning. I'm talking crazy, especially because Jordan hits so hard that he would just knock it out of tune pretty much every take. It was kind of crazy. So I mean, obviously that's important. You got to keep that consistent, but so much of what contributed to that sound was the live snare itself. As for samples that we used, just a random assortment of ones that I had from years back. Nothing crazy special. None that I made. They were all previous previously done samples.

Speaker 3 (02:39:41):

One cool thing was that we learned, and I'm just going to plug nail the mix here, is we used one of the get good drums, room snare samples. And that's something that Nali did on the, that was a periphery mix, right?

Speaker 2 (02:39:54):

It was,

Speaker 3 (02:39:55):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:39:56):

We use that trick,

Speaker 3 (02:39:57):

That room trick, definitely on the open sessions, our open sections, we would kind of automate it up to get more of that explosive room kind of sound. I thought that was a cool trick.

Speaker 2 (02:40:06):

And that actually came later too. I didn't have that in place at first. That was, I tend to lean more on reverb sins for things like that. And then Josh came in like, dude, check out this technique. Which he did a lot on this album actually, and I loved it actually. And like he said, we would automate it up and down throughout. But basically what the approach with the samples we used is each sample kind of captured a different frequency range. One was responsible for the crack, one was responsible for the low end punch of it, and then one was responsible for the midrange. And then really they were all just kind of helping the main snare. And that's why I feel like it doesn't sound too sampled. It still, it's, it is a good blend of sounding live, but also sounding always cutting through.

Speaker 1 (02:40:51):

Sounds like a cannon.

Speaker 2 (02:40:52):

Yeah, we were kind of going for that. I really wanted it to be explosive. Mission accomplished.

Speaker 4 (02:40:59):

Awesome.

Speaker 2 (02:41:00):

Oh yeah. And a parallel compression bus just for the snare alone. That was the other thing. I had never done that before

Speaker 3 (02:41:06):

With the smack attack plugin, right?

Speaker 2 (02:41:08):

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. So there's a parallel compression for all the drums, and then there's another individual parallel compression just for the snare alone. And with smack attack kind of working as a transient designer, just kind of blended in to taste for each song was at different level just to make it really, really cut through.

Speaker 1 (02:41:29):

Great answer. Thank you. This question is from Scott Bennett and what's up Scott? He's one of our community admins. This is for both of you guys. Josh, you've had a studio for a long time, for a few records. You went with Bill Stevenson as a producer who primarily works in punk and hardcore. What has the change been like going from those eras of writing and recording to what you guys have done currently on the latest release? And how has working with Joseph changed up your guys' process? And then Joseph, what's it like to see their previous work and what do you feel you brought to the table for this latest release?

Speaker 3 (02:42:06):

Okay, I'll start. So just to clear it up, me and Joseph actually had the studio for most of the time that I've been with the man, maybe the first two or two years or so. We didn't have it yet, but we did most of those records in San Diego, either at Tim's studio or at Signature Sound. That's where we tracked all the drums. And then we would track guitars either at Tim's studio or I think we did some of the guitars at another studio called Big Fish down in San Diego. But I would say the biggest difference between doing stuff with Adam D or doing stuff with Bill Stevenson versus what we did recently would be that we didn't have that typical producer set up where it was like every day you kind of clock in and see where you were at the day before, and everybody's on the same page.

(02:42:53):

It was a little more chaotic, but also it's very 2019 to have everyone have the ability on their laptop that it took 10 HD cards to have 15 years ago. So I would say the biggest difference would just be that this time we were fully in control, I guess, of the songs, which I think turned out really awesome because at this point we've kind of absorbed a lot of those tricks and songwriting techniques and just principles that those guys live by have kind of rubbed off on us nowadays. Because the last time we did a record with Bill, he literally said to me, he's like, I don't know why you guys are paying me to do this. Because by the time he'd showed up, we'd kind of done the whole, don't bore us, get to the chorus, cut the fat off of bridges. We just kind of can read the producer's mind. And I think that was cool using and utilizing that for the record. I'll let Joseph get his answer in now.

Speaker 1 (02:43:53):

Joseph, you want me to ask your part?

Speaker 3 (02:43:56):

Yes,

Speaker 2 (02:43:57):

Please.

Speaker 1 (02:43:57):

Okay. Joseph, what's it like to see their previous work and what do you feel you brought to the table for this latest release?

Speaker 2 (02:44:05):

Well, I was like Josh said, I was around most of the time they were doing those records. So like Josh said, we learned a lot together from those records. I mean, by the time Josh was recording an ocean between us even he was back and forth with me. We were talking about techniques and things. I mean, God, what year was that? 2007.

Speaker 3 (02:44:26):

Yeah, I remember discovering Vocal line and being like, dude, this is how you get that phasey sound, dude.

Speaker 2 (02:44:32):

Doubling vocals is a thing. And so all of it is kind of built, especially for this record, because I, I'm close with the guy, so I know, I knew what they wanted and what I was really, really trying to do. My goal with the new album was to make it sound like classic as lay dying, but modern, like 2019. And I felt like, especially listening back to Awaken, I mean, it's been a time, it's been many years, but I felt that it didn't sound as 2019, but I mean, I referenced it a lot. We actually referenced Awakened a good bit, especially in terms with the guitar tone because I mean, Collin's just a master of guitar tones and really that was the hardest part to get of the mix was really nailing down the guitar tone and making Phil happy. It is just got to be such a main piece of the mix. But yeah, I mean it was super fun. And like I said, we used everything from previous records to build to what was done on this one

Speaker 1 (02:45:31):

Great. Well guys, I think this is a good place to call it right around three hours.

Speaker 3 (02:45:39):

Sounds good.

Speaker 1 (02:45:40):

Let you go to sleep, Josh.

Speaker 3 (02:45:42):

Yeah, well I still got an hour and a half drive down to Carlsbad.

Speaker 1 (02:45:45):

Oh wow. Are you driving yourself?

Speaker 3 (02:45:48):

Joseph's driving, don't worry. Okay.

Speaker 1 (02:45:49):

I was going to say, I was going to say, yeah, please be safe. Well, it's been awesome talking to you guys and thank you so much you for coming on. Hey,

Speaker 3 (02:45:59):

You too. You as well, man.

Speaker 1 (02:46:00):

Of course, man. Thank

Speaker 3 (02:46:01):

You so much.

Speaker 1 (02:46:02):

Yeah, it was great to catch up and just, awesome. Thank you.

Speaker 3 (02:46:05):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (02:46:06):

This has been therapeutic. Yeah, we learned a lot. It's

Speaker 1 (02:46:09):

Great. You've been listening to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast. To ask us questions, make suggestions and interact, visit URM Academy and press the podcast link today.