Jakob Herrmann: The Gothenburg metal scene, collaboration over competition, and earning the title of “Producer”

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast, brought to you by Jay-Z microphones. For over a decade, Jay-Z microphones has combined all the critical elements of World Press, microphone manufacturing, patented capsule technology, precision electronics, and innovative industrial design. Microphone's. Deep understanding of technology is informed by their open-minded, innovative approach. Trust us, sound can be glorious recorded. For more info, please go to JayZ mike.com. And now your

Speaker 2 (00:00:33):

Host Eyal Levi. I want to take a second to tell you about something that I am very excited about and it's the URM Summit. Once a year, we hold an event where hundreds of producers from all over the world come together for four days of networking, workshops, seminars, and hanging out. This industry is all about relationships, and think about it, what could you gain from getting to personally know your peers from all over the world who have the same goals as you, the same struggles as you, and who can help, inspire you, motivate you, as well as become potential professional collaborators? This year's summit is on November 9th through 11th at the Las Vegas Westin, which is just one block off of the strip, and it's going to be even bigger and better than ever. We're anticipating even more producers plus a lineup of amazing guests like Jenz, Borin, Kris Crummett, Mac Machine, Forrester, Seve, Michael Legian, DaVero, Billy Decker, Chris Adler, Mary Zimmer, Mike Maori, Jesse Cannon Blasco, Jason Berg, Jessica Lohan and more.

(00:01:42):

And of course, our musical guest, the one and Only Spire. So get your summit tickets now at URM summit.com and we will see you in Vegas. One of the cool things about doing now, the mix is getting to go to cool studios. Well, cool is selling it short, getting to go to great studios and meeting great people, great producers, great musicians, and just great contributors to metal music and production. And this is no exception. I was just in Sweden to do now the mix with Frederick Nordstrom in Gothenburg, but he's not the only guy in Gothenburg. As you may know, there's lots of talent out there. And so I decided to take advantage of the situation and hang out and podcasts with whoever else I could because this took place in July. Most of the Swedes were on their holiday, what we Americans know as vacation.

(00:02:47):

Most of them take between five to six weeks per year. It's a normal, normal thing. And they go off in the summer, kind of amazing, very, very jealous. But Jakob Herrmann happened to be there and this guy just has it going on. He's the owner of a place called Top Floor Studios. You should look it up. It's in this theater from 1850. I don't know how he managed to make that work, but it's super, super sick and his monitoring system is kind of like the Death Star. I've never seen anything quite like it. And the guy's got some credits. He's worked with artists such as Anthrax Machine, head Amaranth, Jimmy Josta, body Count, and many, many more. And he regularly collaborates with great producers such as Nelly, Jens, Bo, and Jacob Hanson to Madson and even Forrester, ve. Without further ado, I introduce you, Mr. Jakob Herrmann welcome, by the way to the podcast. But thank you for having me. Welcome to me. Yeah, I should say welcome

Speaker 3 (00:03:53):

To Studio. Yeah, thank you.

Speaker 2 (00:03:55):

Yeah, so I mean, we could sit here talking about people that don't understand game staging or noise floors, but first let's just talk about your sixth studio. You like

Speaker 3 (00:04:09):

It?

Speaker 2 (00:04:10):

I do, I do. It's from 1850.

Speaker 3 (00:04:13):

The studio's not, I was about to say

Speaker 2 (00:04:17):

Is the SSL from

Speaker 3 (00:04:18):

15, 18, 50. It's a prehistoric metal now. The theater is from 1852, I think. And when they built it, it was called The New Theater, and now it's called the Big Theater. And when they built it, they got shit for putting it outside the city center, and now this is the city center.

Speaker 2 (00:04:37):

I was about to say, are we in the city center?

Speaker 3 (00:04:40):

I could put a spot in my floor and write Center of Gothenburg and I would be pretty accurate.

Speaker 2 (00:04:47):

Gothenburg is kind of a legendary place in metal.

Speaker 3 (00:04:51):

Yeah, it is.

Speaker 2 (00:04:53):

I don't know if you guys appreciate it. I'm just saying this. Maybe you can answer it for me, but for all of us outside of Gothenburg, it's kind of like it a mecca almost.

Speaker 3 (00:05:08):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:05:08):

Do you guys appreciate that and know that? Of course we do.

Speaker 3 (00:05:13):

We get business from it, but I mean the bands appreciate it because it's good for them. We appreciate it. And when I say I say producers, because all of us, or most of us in Gothenberg we're friends and colleagues. I went out with a friend last night or I met him out and we hung out and we're colleagues and we both do the same thing. So it's a very strong community, but it's also kind of weird, is so

Speaker 2 (00:05:44):

Small. I've noticed because whenever this comes out, I'm here doing now the mix with Frederick Nordstrom. So I'm just happen to be here. And Jacob and I decided to do podcast now, but I had noticed that I'm staying in a whole different city than where Studio Fredman

Speaker 4 (00:06:07):

Is. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:06:09):

It's like seven minutes away. It's like, what do you mean this is a different city? Yeah,

Speaker 3 (00:06:14):

No, it's weird.

Speaker 2 (00:06:14):

Do you know what different city means

Speaker 3 (00:06:16):

To us? It's not weird, but this is Sweden's second biggest city,

(00:06:21):

And when people come here to visit or to whatever, they're like, this is it. Yeah, this is it. And they think it's going to be something different. And I'm like, but what did you expect? I mean, it's the same thing with all these, the Gothenburg sound bands or whatever. It's just a bunch of childhood friends who happened to revolutionize the metal sound. But I mean, that's what they are. They're childhood friends. Look at their early days. The singer for Dark Tranquility used to sing in flames, and Yesper in Flames was on Hammer Falls' first album. I even think as a drummer, or I might be mistaken, but it doesn't matter, it's just like a bunch of people who did a thing that became huge.

Speaker 2 (00:07:15):

That's kind of what the Seattle situation was like too. A lot of those people from the bands that became the Seattle sound bands played in each other's bands knew each other way back into the eighties.

Speaker 3 (00:07:33):

But that's always how it is, isn't it? I think so. That's how you come up with a sound because interbreeding between the bands for a couple of years and then a new thing accumulates from that and comes out to the world at the same time. And if it's good enough, people pick up on it. It's a new sound, it's crazy good. And then it's just, well, they're legends and to them it's like, yeah, we're

Speaker 2 (00:07:58):

Just doing what we've always done

Speaker 3 (00:08:00):

And now you're paying attention and they're still it. You can walk into a bar here and see people from three bands and they're like, we're not even talking music. We're talking boxing or video gaming or whatever. Really. Beer usually.

Speaker 2 (00:08:13):

So one thing that I've always thought was lame, I've never agreed with this when I've seen it, is when people have that whole support the scene kind of mentality, because I always felt like the good scenes never had to say that because the music was so good that people wanted to go pay attention to it. I never liked the idea of being pressured into supporting a shitty scene. I feel like if the bands around were really good, people would just truly gravitate towards them. And I feel like another place where there's that going on is Montreal, for instance. Montreal has, but there is technical death metal or PGY kind of extreme stuff, but it's very technical.

Speaker 3 (00:09:11):

I understand what you're saying, and I mean I can see the point in the whole support the scene, but

Speaker 2 (00:09:18):

Their heart's in the right place.

Speaker 3 (00:09:20):

That's not how it works to me. To me it's more important to, I don't really like when someone goes, you can't listen to that. Well, why can't I? It's music. It's for everyone, and you should be able to listen to whatever the hell you want just as I can. I mean, I shouldn't be able to make anyone upset. If I work with a metal album and I go home and listen to Britney Spears, that's fine. And in the same way, why shouldn't someone who is usually listening to modern pop music find a black metal band and go, oh, I really like this. And then they get shit for like, ah, you're not true fan, or You're not part of the scene, but it doesn't have to be part of the scene. You don't have to be always part of the scene. It's music. That's

Speaker 2 (00:10:10):

Fine. I found that there, but

Speaker 3 (00:10:12):

I've never been part of any scenes. I dunno,

Speaker 2 (00:10:14):

Neither have I. I've never really wanted to be, I've just been a fan of music, but I felt like growing up there used to be a lot more of that to where if the band didn't play exactly in a certain style, then you weren't true enough for X scene or to be in a certain type of crowd. But with the, you just said everyone here or childhood friends? Not everyone, not everyone, not everyone, but by and large the bands and the producers that make up the Gothenburg scene, there's degrees of separation, but people kind of know each other.

Speaker 3 (00:11:00):

My point with that was that they didn't know what they were doing when they were doing it. Just like anytime a new scene has emerged, the people involved doesn't know what they're doing when they're doing. It's after that, they look back and go, oh, that was the start of grunge, or, wow, that's when

Speaker 2 (00:11:23):

It was kind of like the rest of the world. That's when the rest of the world tells you what you were doing. But that right there invalidates the idea of support the scene almost like if there's a real scene happening, if it's like you said, which I actually do agree with that. It's just people were making stuff that they were inspired to make at a certain point in time

(00:11:46):

With a certain group of people and then cross-pollinating each other's projects. Same thing happened in the Massachusetts scene with That's Spawn the Hardcore and the metal core stuff. In the early two thousands, lots of those people played in each other's bands and then Kill Switch got big, and then the other bands got big. The Shadows fall got big, and on Earth got big, and just a bunch of those bands got big. I think that then other people told them that they were doing a certain something for it to be organic. I'd think that you don't have to try to support it or create it or encourage people to back it. It will take care of itself if it's worth taking care

Speaker 4 (00:12:38):

Of.

Speaker 2 (00:12:38):

I don't know. I feel like the reason that I would never support a scene that I was around was because there was no scene to support. So as much as people would try, they'd organize these shows and try to get these local bands to play together. It didn't matter because there weren't enough good ones to get people interested. I feel like it's one of these, the market speaks for itself. In Atlanta, we had MAs It on, which is awesome band,

(00:13:08):

But we really didn't have much else. So I mean, there were a couple cool bands here and there, but not enough, not enough on that level. If there were three other bands as good as Mastodon and they all played in each other's bands, then maybe we would've had an Atlanta scene and then people would've gone and supported it because they loved the music and they were proud to be a part of it. But if it's just people saying support the scene and then they try to get people to go to these shows, it's not going to work. The music has to be good, and people need to be organically drawn to it. And that's why it bothers me. I feel like people's heart is in the right place. They just want these bands to do well, and they want to be a part of a thriving community of musicians, but if it's not good enough, it's not good enough. So if you really want to be a part of that, maybe move to where that shit's happening. Sure.

Speaker 3 (00:14:05):

Yeah. I mean, you should always, I get what you're saying, and you can't just start a band and say, support the scene, and that's how you

Speaker 2 (00:14:15):

Get ahead. And you can't just put together a show with a bunch of shitty

Speaker 3 (00:14:18):

Bands and say, support the scene and

Speaker 2 (00:14:20):

Say, support the scene, because there's nothing to support. There's only so many times that you can go to the well of friends and family. There comes a point where it has to be good enough for people to make the decision to go watch these bands and buy their stuff independent of whether or not they know them personally.

Speaker 3 (00:14:45):

Absolutely. To come back to what you asked earlier or we talked about earlier, Gothenburg being a mechan, everything. I mean, we see that on shows here when a band from here does a show here on home turf, and you look in the audience and there's people from 10 countries. There's a couple of guys from Japan and a couple of guys from the States and all over Europe and everything. It is pretty cool. It is pretty cool for a small city to breed something like that. I mean, I am not the biggest name by far, and I've had Japanese fans outside my door just is this top floor studios? Yeah, you want to come in for a coffee and they shit their pants, but it's just

Speaker 2 (00:15:35):

Because the coffee's that strong.

Speaker 3 (00:15:38):

It is studio coffee.

Speaker 2 (00:15:40):

Yeah, that's pretty impressive.

Speaker 3 (00:15:42):

But it's kind weird. It's the same thing. I recorded an album in New Orleans two years ago, almost two years ago with a band called All Water from Atlanta, sorry, from Athens, Georgia outside Atlanta. Close enough. Yeah, close enough. And I'm outside a bar and the guy comes up and asked me for a lighter, and it's 2:00 AM and he's, let's say we're both intoxicated enough but not crazy. And he hears to have an accent and he asks where I'm from, I don't even say Gothenburg, I say Sweden. And he just goes crazy like, oh dude, I love Gothenburg medal. And he doesn't look like a metal hat at all. He looks like a random dude. And he starts namedropping so many bands and I don't say anything because it's just fun hearing him name drop people from here, friends and clients. And it was so random being on a Backstreet in New Orleans.

(00:16:41):

But then he starts telling me, there's this new band you have to listen to. Their album came out three weeks ago and they're called Cy, and I start laughing. I mean, I did that album together with Jacob Hanson and Roberto, and it had only been out for three weeks, and there's still a dude in New Orleans who's like a diehard fan, and that's pretty weird. I mean, no, it's not weird, but it's fun. It's a nice thing. But it's also, you asked do you appreciate it or how is it to you? Yeah, it's pretty cool in that way because there's not that many people in Gothenburg. It's not that big of a city.

Speaker 2 (00:17:19):

I've always tried to understand what it is that got in the water or in

Speaker 3 (00:17:25):

Sweden.

Speaker 2 (00:17:26):

Yeah, musically speaking,

Speaker 3 (00:17:27):

Because the third biggest music export country in the world, and we have 10 million people.

Speaker 2 (00:17:32):

Yeah, it's kind of ridiculous. I'm not trying to kiss your guys' ass or anything like that. It just fascinates me when there's a part of the world that something they're really good at, something in that part of the world. I always try to figure out what's going on? Why is this part of the world so good at math or something? Or why does great metal in this genre or these genres, why is so much of it just come out of this place?

Speaker 3 (00:18:07):

But because it's not like it's depending on geographic. You can understand why a lot of good wine comes from France, Spain and Italy compared to

(00:18:19):

Northern Europe. But I mean, it's not like we need grapes or anything else to make music. So I don't know. I think part of it is our renowned social security thing. We don't have to struggle every day to just have a decent life. We can when you say like, Hey, I want to do this, or I'm working with this normal job, but I also want to have a band. That's fine. You get a band together, you get a rehearsal space that's funded by the city, so it, it's affordable. The rent is super cheap for the band, but they also exist

Speaker 1 (00:19:05):

And

Speaker 3 (00:19:06):

There's bands all over. Their rehearsal spaces are all over. When I had bands, it wasn't that hard to get a rehearsal space. So then I talk to friends in the States, for instance, and they say, yeah, we have to rehearse. We have a gig we haven't rehearsed in two months, and we have to drive our gear to the bass player's house and just hope he doesn't get hated by the neighbors. And it's hard.

Speaker 2 (00:19:35):

Yeah, there's this thing called massive tax

Speaker 3 (00:19:36):

Funded venues for kids and or teenagers and a bunch of stuff like that supporting music.

Speaker 2 (00:19:43):

There's this idea that there's a hierarchy of needs basically, and that if the basics aren't taken care of, survival, I mean, I'm simplifying the concept here, but as it pertains to kind of what you just said, if you don't have the basics taken care of and feel secure in them, like shelter, food, water, all that stuff, then the part of your brain, that extra energy that you would use for creative endeavors, you're not going to focus on that.

Speaker 3 (00:20:18):

Of course. How can you focus? Yeah, sure. The whole myth about the starving artists, and in a way, yeah, I totally support that because you create great songs when you feel like shit, but it's also hard to hone your craft or practice or whatever when you have to focus on just having a life, pay your bills or getting food. I think that's what,

Speaker 2 (00:20:47):

So do you think that the relative comfort of, or not comfort, but the safety net,

Speaker 3 (00:20:54):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:20:55):

That having that safety net allows people to pursue the dream?

Speaker 3 (00:20:59):

Absolutely. Absolutely. It's also, I mean, it reflects in anything. I just got an apartment and it's my lease. And when you get an apartment in Sweden and it's your lease, it's your lease forever. And when you get a lease in the states, it's reevaluated yearly sometimes, and you have a really hard time. And the

Speaker 2 (00:21:23):

Rent And the rent is hiked.

Speaker 3 (00:21:25):

Yeah, exactly. And it's hard. And when life is hard, I'm so impressed, honestly, by American colleagues and bands and just people in general, to be honest, because I'm there all the time and I see the struggle and we talk about

Speaker 2 (00:21:43):

It. America's the jungle.

Speaker 3 (00:21:44):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:21:47):

You have to fight.

Speaker 3 (00:21:48):

If you fall through the cracks, your getting up is not that easy and you don't have a safety net at all. I've even had things happen to me in the states and people go, oh, no, how are you going to afford that? It's all good. I have insurance.

Speaker 4 (00:22:08):

And

Speaker 3 (00:22:08):

Then I get the bill and I come home and I give it to my insurance company and they pay it. I don't even have to look at it. And a couple of weeks ago, or months ago, I had an accident myself, and I cracked my head right next to my eyebrow and I had to go to surgery. Nothing crazy, but just a few stitches. And in the states in the middle of the night, that would have, because I've seen that happen in the States with France, and I know how expensive it's, and here it's like 20 bucks.

Speaker 2 (00:22:38):

That's kind of amazing.

Speaker 3 (00:22:40):

Of course. So my assistant or former assistant, kj, who stopped being my assistant, and he's now on the road with bands as tech. He is born in Phoenix, Arizona.

(00:22:54):

And he tells me stories from his childhood with him and his friends, what happened when you had an accident or whatever, and it's not even comparable. So yeah, we can move on to another topic. But yeah, I think that's one of the big reasons why we have so many bands and producers and studios, and not only in music, but in everything, given that we're a small country, I'm not saying that other countries don't have this because of course they do. I'm just saying that we have it. And I think it's part of why people feel that, yeah, I can do this. I can start a band or I can mess around with my studio, and then that leads to something because they can put that time into their hobby and eventually the hobby becomes the work.

Speaker 2 (00:23:40):

Yeah. Well, I think that the part that's interesting to me about it is even if you don't live here in Sweden, thinking about how to set up scenarios in your life to mimic what it is that makes it conducive for great creations. I also think that the lack of distractions is part of it, meaning that since it's dark, there's a whole part of the year where it's just black outside and

Speaker 3 (00:24:14):

Cold. But there are other parts in the world where that's the same.

Speaker 2 (00:24:20):

However, it's kind of like you combine all these things. So you combine that. There's music education in the schools along with the safety net, along with the darkness.

Speaker 3 (00:24:33):

Actually, a friend of mine in the States said that his theory, he added to this theory that since we're taught English from such an early age, we start singing along with songs that we like at a very early age, we learn how to pronunciate English for singing

Speaker 4 (00:24:53):

And

Speaker 3 (00:24:54):

Sounding pretty decent. And he thought that that was a big thing with the Swedish, when he listens to Swedish bands, the grammar is great, and the lyrics are great, and you don't sound foreign,

Speaker 2 (00:25:09):

Right?

Speaker 3 (00:25:10):

But then when he hears an interview with the same band, they sound super foreign. I don't know. I'm just speculating. And that's even my friends speculating, not me. But of course, there are many factors, the whole getting dark outside thing, the whole social security thing. And I'm sure there are many other things that I haven't even thought about, but

Speaker 2 (00:25:33):

Well, the dark thing, is that real? Because I've thought about it. I mean, I know that yes, the dark is real. There is a part of the year, not

Speaker 3 (00:25:42):

Now, it's summer, now it's the other way around.

Speaker 2 (00:25:44):

But no, I know that that actually does happen. But what I'm wondering is during that time of year, is it really, we think it is where

Speaker 3 (00:25:56):

It's pretty

Speaker 2 (00:25:56):

Crazy. You don't really want to do anything, so why not make music?

Speaker 3 (00:25:59):

Yeah. I mean, this is Gutenberg. This is Southern Sweden, go up north and it's insane.

Speaker 2 (00:26:05):

So stay indoors and make

Speaker 3 (00:26:07):

Shit. Yeah, but they're crazy. They go out in all kinds of weather. But yeah, that's also a theory that I've heard many times, and I'm sure there's weight to it.

Speaker 2 (00:26:19):

So you said that it's actually good for business, just the Gothenburg community community because worldwide people, I'm guessing people come to people here just because of I guess, the history.

Speaker 3 (00:26:35):

Sure, yeah. But it's also, I mean, I can't speak for Sweden versus the rest of the world, but I know that some people that I've talked to and that come from other cities and other countries that do the same thing as I do that they say it's a cutthroat environment or it's a very, it's competitive. And here it's very, at least in Gothenburg, it's very, like I said, most of us know each other. The guy doing service on my desk runs another studio in the city called Old Classic Studio. But it's, we all know each other, but that also means we can work together. And it's fun. I always work with people. I work with Roberto Loggy a lot. We just finished the wrist fist album two days ago with a mastering, but we've done so many things together. Same thing with Jacob Hanson. I mean, yeah, I know he's in Denmark, but he's part of it close enough, and we've done so many albums together and we love working together. And that's a nice thing. And I actually think that I work better in a way when I have to work with someone. I want them to be super happy when they get the files. I want them to just, let's say I'm producing an album, and Jacob is the two Jacobs, right? Jacob Hanson is mixing it. And one of the first albums we did together, he said, oh, I love your stuff. I can just race the faders and start mixing. It's

Speaker 4 (00:28:10):

There.

Speaker 3 (00:28:11):

Yeah, it all sounds like it's in place. And it leans against each other in a very nice way, the tracks. And he can just go instead of like, oh, okay, let's see here and go into that whole thing. But that's also because I love working with people, and I think that you should, especially today, you should be able to work with people on productions because it's also fun. You learn from each other and it's a great way to work. And it's a sense of, yeah, we are a community. It's not good for me if another studio in Gothenburg go belly up. It's not good for anyone. It's good for everyone. If everyone thrives and I agree, there you go, support the scene, but in another kind of way.

Speaker 2 (00:28:55):

Well, yeah, but that's a scene that supports itself.

Speaker 3 (00:28:59):

But we have to support each other, but we also give work to each other because we are, it's a nice sense of community where you call someone and like, Hey, can I borrow this thing? And also, I have a thing for you, or I am talking to this band and we should do it together.

Speaker 2 (00:29:19):

But it's organic though, I guess is what I was getting at earlier. There's an organic quality to it because you would want to work with Jacob Hansen fucking great. So there's that too. If he wasn't, you may not want to work with him. Just he is a nice guy. That wouldn't be enough. And I know that you guys have been working with Robin Je, he's a URM student hero, but he wouldn't be moving up if he wasn't good. So I feel like that's kind of what I was getting at with saying that the support, the scene, there has to be an organic side to it where it has to be voluntary.

Speaker 3 (00:30:02):

Of course, I wouldn't,

Speaker 2 (00:30:04):

And desirable,

Speaker 3 (00:30:05):

I wouldn't work with someone if I thought it was going to be worse

(00:30:10):

Compared to doing it myself. But the point is that those on certain, this, I had a band, I produced their album. They're called Knox Virago. They're super cool. And they did an album with me. I produced it from start to finish. It was a extreme process. And then we talked mixing, and they had a really good budget for the mixing. And they said, when do you want to mix it? I said, I don't think I'm going to mix it. I think you should mix with Roberto. This is so his alley. I think he would make a great job with his mix. Their reaction at first was like, yeah, but then he gets the money. I said, yeah, but we all get the best result. And I loved mixing that with Roberto. I mean, he mixed it. And I went there now and then to just see that my whole vision of the album didn't get lost, but it didn't. It got 10 times better.

Speaker 2 (00:31:11):

Good job, Roberto.

Speaker 3 (00:31:12):

Yeah, good. Robert Roberta. I mean, he's amazing. He's taught me so much about,

(00:31:22):

But that's also a good thing. You teach each other. He's older than me. He's done this for many years more than I, but we still show each other every time we do a session and we call each other pretty often we're good friends, but it's also in those conversations, Hey, I tried a thing today. Oh yeah, tell me and yeah, try to do like this and this. Oh shit, I have to try that. And you come back and yeah, and now I did this with it. And you learn from each other instead of being separate islands. Just in our own little world, not evolving, not learning, not having fun. I mean, working together with other people is the most fun ever.

Speaker 2 (00:32:01):

I agree. Interestingly enough, one thing that Frederick kept saying over the two days, and now the mix was about how important it was for him to have fun with this stuff or it's not worth it to him. What I wish that more people understood, I try to push this to the URM students all the time, is that you should not look at this competition. It's not like companies that are competing for market share. I mean, yes, there's a finite number of bands, but there's more than enough for everyone to go around. And like you said, even if he gets for that one project, he gets that money for the mix. If he's the right guy for it, and your name is on it, everybody wins.

Speaker 3 (00:32:49):

Of course.

Speaker 2 (00:32:50):

So you're looking at the bigger picture, which is that making something great. It's not like you would've done a bad job on the mix, but if he's the right guy for the mix, then you're getting the optimal result and everybody wins.

Speaker 3 (00:33:07):

And it's the same thing with Jacob Hanson. We give each other work all the time. He can tell me, Hey, I really want you to record this band. I think that would be awesome. And I say, Hey, I really want you to mix this thing. I think it would be great. And I even had an album with, I think it was 12 songs, and me and my assistant, or then assistant Christopher Borg, who's also, I think URM guy actually.

Speaker 2 (00:33:36):

There's a lot of you guys here.

Speaker 3 (00:33:37):

Yeah. All of you. No, we mixed four of them and Hanson mixed four of them. And then we had Nali mixed four of

Speaker 4 (00:33:46):

Them.

Speaker 3 (00:33:47):

We've also done some things together. And that was just because that was right for the album. And that's how you should do it, instead of thinking, yeah, I should. No, we should.

(00:34:00):

And I'm not saying you have to do it all the time. I'm just saying that if you have a certain plan for an album, of course, I've done albums like that banned in the States in New Orleans, then I knew I have to do this my way. And I had a co-producer in Justin Davis who's from Seattle, who's a great dude. And we had super fun with it, but I had my vision for it and when mixing as well. And that one, I had to mix myself. I couldn't let anyone mix it. But with other productions, it's the other way around. I can't mix it. I shouldn't mix this. We should make this the best album we can, and that means we should work with these people or these people who should master it, the right one, not the cheap one, who should mix it, the right one, not the cheap one, or even that guy who is nice to us.

Speaker 2 (00:34:58):

Yeah, I definitely agree with that. One thing that I'm curious about is how did you go about getting those relationships going to where someone like Jacob Hansen would trust you? How do you recommend people establish that? And I guess specifically too, someone like Robin, for instance, who's now starting to get into that position where people are starting to trust him because a few years ago he didn't know anybody.

Speaker 4 (00:35:31):

Of course.

Speaker 2 (00:35:31):

Yeah. I've watched him go from a kid that didn't know shit, had no contacts, and now I find out he's working with you. He's working with Jacob Hanson. I know he is working with some people in the States. He is getting around. And one thing that Nick, Nick from URM, we invited him to come watch nail the Mix. And I was like, I don't care if he's here the whole time, I'd be totally okay with that. And normally they're kind of closed sessions because people that do know the mix aren't excited about being on camera in the first place. So I have to make them feel comfortable. And then having extra people there can get in the way. But I was thinking, yeah, it really wouldn't bother me. And so that's kind of when we tell people that your social skills need to be really good. You need to be able to be hang outable for long periods of time. I didn't even question whether or not I was okay with having him come by and hang out. And I realized, and I was like, that's probably part of what's, but he's

Speaker 3 (00:36:41):

Super nice. Yeah, exactly. He's a pro at the social

Speaker 2 (00:36:47):

Skillset.

Speaker 3 (00:36:49):

I'm not. I mean, so

Speaker 2 (00:36:52):

How do you make it work?

Speaker 3 (00:36:54):

I dunno. I guess I have to be good at something, right? No, I mean, sure, I'm a nice dude, but not the first two days. Actually. I actually took it down now, so it's more like the first four hours. But so many,

Speaker 2 (00:37:11):

I just met you. You've been pretty cool. I mean,

Speaker 3 (00:37:14):

Here we are. Yeah. But so many of my friends, I guess I was younger then, but they always told me like, dude, I love you. You're the best. You're my friend, and I couldn't have a better friend. Go fuck yourself. I hated you at first. I fucking hated you. I really, I couldn't stand you. But I don't know. Yeah, the social side is a big part of it. And I think that that's also, everyone's different. And some bands, they want that or they need that. And some bands actually actively don't want that. They don't want any, let's not even talk. Let's just work. And other bands are on the whole other side of the spectrum. Yeah, but we need YouTube time, we need to bond, we need to get in the groove, we need to get in the zone. We need to find our dynamic. And most of them are somewhere in the middle, so of course it's important. But I also know that many bands like how I am and maybe other bands they like more like how someone else is, but we're also not kids. We're grownups. I mean, it's like doing anything else, any other kind of work. Being a pro is also about that. Being a pro is not only making it sound good, being a pro can be about vacuuming your studio or making sure the coffee machine doesn't clog up or being a nice dude or

Speaker 2 (00:39:02):

Creating a good atmosphere. But I mean, in your case, where are these relationships coming from with the people that you said that you work with, where you have this reciprocal type of relationship where you guys trust each other, where it's like, let me just give this guy the mix,

Speaker 4 (00:39:26):

And

Speaker 2 (00:39:26):

I'm not worried that this guy's going to try to poach my clients and then steal them or something. People worry about that stuff back home for me.

Speaker 3 (00:39:36):

I've noticed that. Yeah, sure. People worry about that here too, to some degree, but not all of us.

Speaker 2 (00:39:42):

We always encourage people to try to make relationships with people because relationships are everything. Without relationships, you don't have shit. You can have the best skills in the world, and if you don't have people who want to work with you, not just enjoy what you do, but want to work with you, you really don't have shit. And so having relationships like the one with Roberta or Hanson, whatever, I mean, those are a big deal

Speaker 3 (00:40:15):

For me. But that's what Robin is doing now on his end, he's getting to know people and that's going to help him along the way.

Speaker 2 (00:40:23):

How did that happen for you

Speaker 3 (00:40:25):

With Robin?

Speaker 2 (00:40:26):

No, I'm just kidding. No, no. Well, I am curious about Robin, but

Speaker 3 (00:40:30):

Robin was actually Hanson who, because I needed someone to edit some stuff because I was swamped and my assistant was on his way out, and I had to have someone, I could have done it myself, but I didn't really feel like pulling shift after shift. And Hanson said, talk to Robin because I've used him on some stuff and he's good. Befriend him on Facebook and do it. And we did. And then we became friends. And I've had him work on, I think two or three things now, editing stuff. And I mean, that's how you do

Speaker 2 (00:41:18):

Without trying to give him a big ego or anything. What is it that he's doing?

Speaker 3 (00:41:24):

He doesn't have a big ego. He's a super nice guy.

Speaker 2 (00:41:25):

Doesn't he doesn't. But it's a good example for other people in URM because they already know that he's won URM more. Anybody else? So he's obviously got some skills, but what is it that makes you be like, okay, cool, I'll give this guy some work. Okay, I'll give this guy some work. Again, as you probably know, there's a lot of people who try to get work who either are really tough to communicate with or their skills are just not worth talking to about what is it that makes it work for you.

Speaker 3 (00:42:04):

You got to want it. And by that I don't mean that I'm some high and mighty giving workout. If you deserve it, you can have it. That's not what I

Speaker 2 (00:42:16):

Mean. No, but you've got a

Speaker 3 (00:42:17):

Yeah, but what I mean is situation, if you want it and you're ready to, because this is a hard business to get into, but if you want it and you prove that you want it, that means that you really want it and you're reliable for that. And you are not only ready to do the work, but you're pumped for it. Yeah. I'm pumped for sitting here and edit these drums. It wasn't drums. I edit those myself, but

Speaker 2 (00:42:47):

Whatever it is.

Speaker 3 (00:42:48):

And he actually helped me out a couple of weeks ago with another band called Spartan from the Netherlands, and we were in mixing with Hansen again, and we needed some editing done, and I just, I was finishing up the raised fist thing, and it was just, yeah, I'll connect you with Robin and you guys take it from there. So I wasn't even involved. It was small things, but it still needed to be done. And they talked to him, or I put a group together on Messenger and it all happened and I wasn't part of it. And he was just like, yeah, it went super good. They're great. And they were like, yeah, it was so effortless and nice. And again, I mean, at that point, it's a shitty job. If you look at it from the outside, you just jump into a session you don't know anything about. You edit up some stuff and that's done, but he wants it. He was so like, yeah, let's do it.

Speaker 2 (00:43:56):

See, when I was at that stage in my career, I didn't see it as shitty.

Speaker 3 (00:44:01):

No, but you can't.

Speaker 2 (00:44:03):

Yeah, you

Speaker 3 (00:44:03):

Can't ever. I didn't, but that's the same thing now still, when I sit down behind the drum kit, I still feel that first, oh man, this is going to be great. And then, yeah, sure, everyone loves setting a sound for the drums, and then suddenly you're in day five and you're like, yeah, now we have to change the heads and make them sound just like the ones we just wore out. Or for the fourth time song, I have to go in and tune up the snare just so little because

Speaker 2 (00:44:38):

That lug closest to the drummer keeps slipping.

Speaker 3 (00:44:41):

Right. And I mean, I usually don't have that problem because I have some tricks to prevent that from happening. But when you're detuning the snare and you want that sound, then it's like working with an amp that's about to die, and you just have to go in and like, yeah, I'm just going to turn that tuning screw just a little. And you still have to love it. You still have to. It's so worth it. And I love doing this. And if you have that passion for what you do, then you have so much. Sure you hate it, but you also love it. You always love it. Even if you're sitting there and you're just like, ah, God, I hate this with some project, A part of you has to love it, otherwise you wouldn't be doing it because this is not something you do. You do it because you want to.

Speaker 2 (00:45:35):

Well, I mean there's an aspect of it that's work. And so work is not always going to be a hundred percent fun the whole time. And it's not supposed to be, but

Speaker 3 (00:45:45):

He knows Laton, the big Swedish soccer player.

Speaker 2 (00:45:49):

Yeah,

Speaker 3 (00:45:50):

Yeah. He knows plays in La Galaxy, I think. Yeah, he does. He hates running exercises. He hates running.

Speaker 2 (00:45:58):

You got to do it.

Speaker 3 (00:45:59):

You got to do it. But he loves playing soccer, right? So he gets on that treadmill every day if he can't run outside or whatever, and he has to do it because that's part of him playing soccer, and he loves playing soccer. So that's just what it is. I don't love vacuuming

Speaker 2 (00:46:18):

My studio, but your studio is immaculate, by the way. I know you said that. It was kind of messy, but

Speaker 3 (00:46:25):

It is messy because I like to have the room. Totally. I like to put the stuff away in the storage.

Speaker 2 (00:46:30):

You're storage, man, after my own heart, because this is not messy. This just looks like in use or in the middle of a setup or something.

Speaker 3 (00:46:39):

Yeah, it kind is. That's why it's not messy when you go from one setup to the next and the next setup is one day. Why should you put anything away? Right?

Speaker 2 (00:46:48):

Dude, this is not messy. So if this is your idea of messy, I'd love to work here. You should see how my living conditions are. People ask me if people ask me if I'm psychotic because I want it to look like a hotel room when you first walk in. That's how I want to live. I want it to be just fucking clean

Speaker 4 (00:47:13):

And

Speaker 2 (00:47:13):

Fucking organized. And I like that in recording studios too. So this is your definition of messy then. Right on. I just gave him a thumbs up, so I know that. Thank you, by the way. No, I'm just being honest. When I first got gigs doing the editing stuff and the Bix prep stuff for people above me, it was a lot of work. Sometimes 18 hours straight replacing snares on an album. That dude decided the snare sample had to change and is due tomorrow. We didn't have the same capabilities then as we do now. And so it was just tab a transient for 16, 18 hours straight. And I was okay with

Speaker 3 (00:47:58):

Better to not work with samples then You don't have that problem. No,

Speaker 2 (00:48:02):

I get it. But if you're working for somebody else, you got to do what? You got to do things their

Speaker 3 (00:48:06):

Way. No, I'm just kidding. But yeah, I get what you mean.

Speaker 2 (00:48:10):

I mean, if you're working for a producer, you're working for the producer. It's not your place to tell him,

Speaker 3 (00:48:16):

But you still wanted it.

Speaker 2 (00:48:17):

Yes. That's the thing. And I was totally fine to sit on that couch for those 18 hours straight and make it happen, though there did come a point where I did feel like I had edited enough in my life to where it's time to move on, but I never felt like I was above it or anything like that. My brain stopped engaging. I guess that part of your brain, the light bulb that turns on when you're doing something you're really into.

Speaker 4 (00:48:50):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:48:51):

I just couldn't get it to turn on anymore to put it. I get it. Yeah. But what I'm, I still like editing. Well, there you go. Some people do. But how,

Speaker 3 (00:49:00):

Or I like the result. I know what I want with certain instruments. I know what I want it to sound like. It's not just putting it okay, one 16 and go to grid. There's a musicality to it. And sometimes

Speaker 2 (00:49:15):

Absolutely.

Speaker 3 (00:49:16):

I'm looking forward to the result. So yeah, editing is so and so, but it's always so satisfying when you're done with it and it sounds like you wanted it. Same thing. You got to want it and you got to want the results.

Speaker 2 (00:49:30):

Absolutely. So I guess what you're saying is when you see that, you recognize that in somebody else, it's attractive to, maybe that's why we said that we were totally cool to have him around for the nail the mix sessions. We get that vibe and we like that vibe.

Speaker 3 (00:49:50):

I actually talked to Kenny Aronoff about Kenny Aronoff.

Speaker 2 (00:49:54):

Well, I don't know

Speaker 3 (00:49:55):

Him to you who are listening and hi, by the way, and don't know, he's the world's most InDemand session drummer

Speaker 2 (00:50:04):

Ever. Yes, he is.

Speaker 3 (00:50:05):

He's insane

Speaker 2 (00:50:07):

Motherfucking

Speaker 3 (00:50:07):

Badass. And I met him I think 10 years ago, first time. And when I met him, I think he had six or seven albums on Billboard 30 at the same time.

Speaker 2 (00:50:20):

Sounds about right.

Speaker 3 (00:50:21):

That's pretty crazy. All different genres. And I asked him why, just why? And he said, I'm good. I'm more than good. I'm good. I'm really good. But so are many drummers. I'm not the fastest one, but I can be fast. I'm not flashy, but I can be flashy. But I, I'm not that guy. I'm not the, wow. He's such a, his skillset is so crazy. But he knows many different styles. But he also said that when he walks into a session, everyone goes, oh, Kenny's here. Awesome. This is going to be great. And that has a certain weight to, it

Speaker 2 (00:51:05):

Has a lot of weight to it, but he also is really badass.

Speaker 3 (00:51:09):

Oh, he's amazing. He

Speaker 2 (00:51:11):

Is being modest.

Speaker 3 (00:51:11):

Yeah. No, no, that's him being modest. But I think he put out autobiography recently called Sex Drums and Rock and Roll. I think that's what it's called. I'm not swearing by it. But no, he's an amazing drummer and he's adaptable and he plays with energy. And I saw him just a couple of weeks ago with John Fogarty, who's 74, by the way. I know. That was crazy. And he was really good. But Kenny drives that band perfectly with energy, and that's his style. But that whole social skillset thing is also part of his toolkit.

Speaker 2 (00:51:53):

How does an introvert make it work? Because so many are introverts, you said that you don't have, you said that when you were younger, you were more of a monster. I'm not a

Speaker 3 (00:52:05):

Monster at all. No, I was a monster, but I was like, I'm just

Speaker 2 (00:52:07):

Using that

Speaker 3 (00:52:07):

Word annoying. Just my friends have said that the first time or times they met me, they couldn't stand me.

Speaker 2 (00:52:14):

I was a monster when I was younger,

Speaker 3 (00:52:16):

But that was when I was younger. I'm pretty Okay.

Speaker 2 (00:52:19):

Well, how do you go developing these relationships? Because these relationships, like I was saying earlier, these are, I'm sure you obviously have your own clients, but also these relationships are crucial. They're crucial both for having friends, but also for getting work. So how did you get yourself to the point where these people who are amazing, they are amazing, trust you and you enough to give you work and to associate their name with you?

Speaker 3 (00:52:53):

Yeah, I mean,

Speaker 2 (00:52:55):

There was a point where that wasn't the case. Of course, of course. We all start at

Speaker 3 (00:53:00):

Zero. I mean, nowadays, it's easier when I meet someone or even work with someone I've never met. I've never met Nolie, but we've worked together. But it's easier now so they can look me up and they see, oh, he's obviously working with the same things I do. So it's easier now to work with someone.

Speaker 2 (00:53:25):

But I mean 10 years ago

Speaker 3 (00:53:26):

Or

Speaker 2 (00:53:27):

Longer,

Speaker 3 (00:53:28):

10 or 15 or more like 15.

Speaker 2 (00:53:30):

Yeah, I mean, yeah, I don't mean now.

Speaker 3 (00:53:33):

Oh, okay. I see. Well, I started playing drums when I was 15. I started playing piano. I was five, but when I was 15, I started playing drums. And long story short, I was so fascinated by how they sounded as much as playing them. So that's what I had to focus on. I went to the practice space hours earlier just to practice tuning because why does it sound like this on this album? Not on this album. So that was me at 15 and I just obsessed about drum sounds. And then I started when I was in my twenties and was building my own studio. At the same time, I got gigs as drum tech in studios. So I was up in Studio Boohoo that is now no more, but legendary studio north of Gothenburg. And I was working with the producer Tobias, or Tobias Lindell, who is the guy behind Lindell Audio. He now lives in Thailand. He took me in as drum tech because he needed a drum tech, someone who can really tune drums for a specific sound. The world needs

Speaker 2 (00:54:51):

Drum techs.

Speaker 3 (00:54:52):

Oh yeah, for sure. So he took me in as drum tech to get specific sounds and micing and a certain skillset. And in that way I got to know him and I got work through him. So it was pretty funny at the same time that I was building my own studio, working with demo bands when I was in my mid twenties, I was also going to Boohoo and other studios to him and other places. But I mean, I worked with bands like Europe and the next day I was recording a demo band in my own space. So that's pretty,

Speaker 2 (00:55:30):

It's a big contrast.

Speaker 3 (00:55:32):

Very. So always for years I was that guy. I was that drum guy that you just called like, Hey, we need drums to sound good in the studio. Okay, I'll be there.

Speaker 2 (00:55:48):

Just going to take a quick break and I promise it's going to be quick, but it's important. I need to remind you guys. So please forgive me. This episode is brought to you by the URM Summit, four days of networking workshops, seminars, and hanging out with your URM friends and dozens of the industry's best pros. It's November eight through 11 at the Las Vegas. We and tickets are available right [email protected]. Alright, back to the episode. I have a guy like that, his name's Matt Brown. He saved my ass so many times.

Speaker 4 (00:56:25):

I

Speaker 2 (00:56:25):

Got to a point where I didn't want to record an album without having him there just because,

Speaker 3 (00:56:32):

And it's more common in the states, way more common.

Speaker 2 (00:56:35):

It's still not common enough. But the thing is, once you work with a good studio drum tech and just how much of a difference it makes, you'll never want to go without it again. Okay, at tuning, I can get by if I need to, but why would I want to? If there's someone else who is, like you said, you obsessed over it. I never obsessed over it. I

Speaker 3 (00:57:05):

Learned how there's a big difference in if you're decent at it or you're okay at it. But there's a big difference in getting a good sound and getting the right sound because absolutely having a good sound just means that the drums sound good, but that doesn't have to mean that they sound right for that production. That means that you are just tuning until it sounds good and that's fine. And then you realize after it doesn't sound right, instead of actually hearing in your head before or talking it through with a producer or in the situation I am now, I talk with the band about it like, we are going for this sound. And then you start working on the drums, tuning it and micing it in the way and choosing the right gear. And that's why I have 30 snare drums, because I need that to choose what I hear in my head or what me and the band have talked about. So that's the difference between good and right.

Speaker 2 (00:58:09):

If I just wanted it in tune, I would do it. But what I want is when I'm working with the drum tech, I want to be able to say something like, I need all the Toms to sound like little kick drums. And for them to understand, okay, so it's got to have a short sustained, it's got to be kind of scooped. They need to understand what I mean. They need to understand how it would punch through a wall of guitars. And

Speaker 3 (00:58:40):

You can only have that skillset if you have obsessed about it.

Speaker 2 (00:58:43):

Yes, exactly.

Speaker 3 (00:58:44):

To understand how do I get this sound? Not just like, oh, I hope I get that sound.

Speaker 2 (00:58:51):

And then with the same guy next week, I could say, these need to sound like thunder and be super long like this combined with this or whatever.

Speaker 3 (00:59:03):

But that's why it's so important to talk to bands about two different bands or two different people in the same band even can use the same word to describe two very different sounds. And they just said, we just want fat, at least in Sweden or in the Swedish language, the word fat or fat as we say, is that sound. I want want it to sound fat. Okay, cool. And then you start working. And I very quickly started asking like, okay, what's fat to you? Because in the same band, two people saying it should sound fat or cool or whatever word they use, you don't know what that is. You just know what you think it is. And if you have two very different sounds, if you have a low pitched drum, but with no bottom, that's fat in a way.

Speaker 4 (01:00:01):

But

Speaker 3 (01:00:01):

If you have a high pitched drum with a lot of bottom, that's like comparing metallic black album to Rosanna with toto, right? But it's fat to two different people. And they will use the word fat to describe it.

Speaker 2 (01:00:17):

Warm is another one of those

Speaker 3 (01:00:18):

Words, right? Yeah. Make it warm.

Speaker 2 (01:00:21):

Whatever the hell that means.

Speaker 3 (01:00:23):

Right? And that's why you should talk about it. You always have to talk about what, okay, let's analyze.

Speaker 2 (01:00:28):

Yeah, that's how it was working with Matt is we'd get to the bottom of it. So being able to share that sort of vision with somebody who obsessed over that. I feel the same way with guitar techs like Lu Airs, I can set up a guitar well enough, but if I need it actually set up perfectly for the player and for what we're doing, why would I do it when there's somebody else who devoted their life to

Speaker 3 (01:00:59):

It? That's what I love about this location, or that's one of the many things I love about this location, that I have a little guitar store right up the street with a guy who's great at setting up a guitars and he does the same thing, but back to you, he asks, what is this for? What sound are you looking for? What are we doing? You're working with him and it's great. Same

Speaker 2 (01:01:24):

Thing. He's not just intonating it,

Speaker 3 (01:01:26):

Right? That's his thing. That's his obsession and that's his passion.

Speaker 2 (01:01:34):

So you made yourself useful, basically.

Speaker 3 (01:01:37):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:01:37):

To put long story

Speaker 3 (01:01:39):

Short, yeah. Sorry for that little

Speaker 2 (01:01:41):

Sidetrack. No, it's okay. Tangents are what's great about

Speaker 3 (01:01:43):

Podcasts. Yeah, it is. And no, I was that drum dude. I was that drum guy, that crazy guy with all the drums. I came to the studios with a bunch of snare drums and different

Speaker 2 (01:01:56):

Heads. You do have a shitload of snares

Speaker 3 (01:01:58):

And

Speaker 2 (01:01:58):

There are some good ones too.

Speaker 3 (01:02:00):

I have 30 snares, I have three drum kits and I have 30 symbols. And in the basement storage I have, I dunno, 200 drum heads.

Speaker 2 (01:02:11):

That's how it should be.

Speaker 3 (01:02:13):

Yeah. Yeah, it is. But I'm the same with everything. I love amps. So now I'm stocking up on amps. I love mics, so I have a bunch of mics. But I mean, yeah, I was that dude. I came to the studio with a bunch of different stuff and what are we doing? Let's do it. And it was great. And that got me more work as a drunk tech, but it also got me more work in my studio. And then that gave me, it's a good circle. It's a snowball effect.

(01:02:49):

And then you get to know more people in different ways. And at the same time, it's pretty funny because there's a magazine in Sweden that's like the Swedish version of tape up or Sound on Sound. Not close enough as cool or good, but it's our, and it's been around for years and years and they needed someone to write about drums. And I applied for that when I was 20. Yeah, just turned 22. So I was reviewing drums and writing about drums. Can you imagine what a life it was a side gig. I wrote one thing a month at most, but I got,

Speaker 2 (01:03:34):

So it was your whole life.

Speaker 3 (01:03:35):

Yeah. Oh, yeah. That's all I did.

(01:03:38):

I was single and obsessing about drums for many years. That's what I did. And I had stuff sent to me. I tried it. I wrote reviews on it, but I also, I went really in depth, and then they asked if I wanted to interview someone and Yeah, sure. Like a drummer. Yeah, like a drummer. And I started interviewing drummers, and then they really liked what I did, so I started getting other interviews with musicians and I mean, I'm 25 and I'm sitting down with G Lee in Rush for hours talking about bass sounds, talking about producing albums, talking about what it's like in the studio, talking about what's important in a studio. A couple of weeks later, I'm sitting down with Lenny Kravitz talking about how he records drums. That was a pretty nice,

Speaker 2 (01:04:36):

What about his sick jackets?

Speaker 3 (01:04:38):

Right. He was a cool dude.

Speaker 2 (01:04:41):

I'm sure he

Speaker 3 (01:04:41):

Was a lot of charisma. No. And then they asked if I wanted to interview producers, so I had phone interviews with people in the States. I interviewed producers here in Sweden, and that's how I got to know Roberto. He was doing an album with Inflames, and I was there to talk, not to Inflames, but to him about the recording. And of course, we knew who the other guy was. I was that drum dude, like I said. And I had been there a couple of times at that studio, and of course I knew of him, and we had met just a little, but now we actually sat down and talked, and at the same time I was doing this side gig interviewing drummers and other musicians and producers. I was building my own studio

Speaker 2 (01:05:38):

And network,

Speaker 3 (01:05:40):

So that networking was also a good thing. I got to know musicians and producers, and that gave me some more. And they're like, yeah, you're that dude. The drum dude. Yeah. Okay. I'll call you when I need a drum tech.

Speaker 2 (01:05:55):

Great. It's interesting because having been a guy in a band who did press, I always felt like the people that were interviewing me were wasting an opportunity because they would just read the press release and just ask the same questions as everybody else. I was like, well, you're wasting, not saying that I'm like the opportunity, but I was figuring, if you're doing this with me, you're probably doing this with everybody, and you're wasting these opportunities to get to know all these people that are doing what you love to talk about. Maybe you want to be a musician. Well, you're wasting these opportunities. And it sounds to me like if you got Getty Lee to talk to you for multiple hours,

Speaker 3 (01:06:49):

It was pretty funny. I was supposed to have 20 minutes and we're in his dressing room and the tour manager keeps coming in five more minutes and he just goes like, no, no, no, no. Make it like, we'll go. Yeah. So

Speaker 2 (01:07:04):

Fucking rare.

Speaker 3 (01:07:05):

Yeah. He prolongs it and he really, he's so into it. We're sitting there talking what we both love, and then we go out and he's like, oh, here's the rest of the band you have to meet. I'm a drummer. And when I started playing, it was rush. Rush is rush. You can't debate that even. So this is Alex. Yeah, I know who you are. This is Neil. Yeah, I know who you are too. And I was just about to say like, Hey, thank you. This was nice. And they're like, Hey, do you want to come to the soundcheck? Yeah. So that was a cool part of my life, and I could talk about that for a long time. But my point is that that helped me in what I do now, because I had the opportunity to talk to people who did what I aspired to do, and they shared with me, and I mean, I met Roberto and we started talking after the interview and I started emailing him like, Hey, I saw a photo.

(01:08:08):

You did this miking on the snare drum. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's because this and this and this. Oh, super cool. Like I said, I'm in my mid twenties by that time now I'm 39 and he and I are working together. So that whole getting to know people without being an annoying stalker, just showing that, yeah, I also want to be part of this, not because I want to meet famous people, not because I want to say that I'm a producer, all of that shit. I want to do this for the same reason you do that we have this passion. This is a calling that we're doing. We're not doing it. It's cool because it's not that cool, but we're doing it because we are also driven by passion, just like musicians. And people should realize that. And if you're not doing it for the right reasons, then you should just not do it. But I think that that whole showing that I'm also in this for the same reason you are, that's when people go, oh, cool. Come by the studio, or we should hang out.

Speaker 2 (01:09:13):

They can sniff it like a dog or something

Speaker 3 (01:09:16):

Like, right, you and I are the same. And even if we're super different as people or how we work or whatever,

Speaker 2 (01:09:23):

Or at different levels in your career, that's fine with Getty Lee, because at that point, he was already a multimillionaire, fucking legend. He didn't have to talk to you like that, but I know that he was probably starved for talking to people that he could connect with about his stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:09:44):

And that's what's so funny, because that magazine I was writing for, I mean, weren't that big. It wasn't that big, but the record labels and the PR people or whatever, these people that handle this, they started to, because Sweden is a small country, they started to see that, oh, it's that guy coming. He's the guy who did Iron Maiden and they loved it.

(01:10:09):

He's doing Rush. Let's put him last because they know that they're doing 10 interviews in a day. And they started putting me last because they know that the musicians are going, we need more time, but you have these five interviews. Okay, can we do it later? No, I have to go back to Gothenburg. Shit. So they started putting me last because they knew the bands or whoever it was, wanted to talk for a much longer time. And I once met, and this was a long time ago, but I met Foo Fighters and I come into their dressing room. Heroes. Heroes for you.

Speaker 2 (01:10:50):

Oh, Dave Grohl is a hero.

Speaker 3 (01:10:51):

Great. Now you're talking and we could talk about that for a long ass time.

Speaker 2 (01:10:55):

Oh, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:10:56):

We could talk about him in the studio for a long ass time. There's actually video of him recording drums for Julius Lewis who I talked to about this. She loves drums and she loves his drumming. And he was playing on her album, and it's a YouTube video of him playing in the studio. And everyone who plays drums or everyone who works in studios or with this thing should watch that video. Just Google

Speaker 2 (01:11:24):

It. YouTube. My question is, who doesn't love his drumming

Speaker 3 (01:11:28):

Or what he does?

Speaker 2 (01:11:29):

Yeah, I'm waiting. Who doesn't love

Speaker 3 (01:11:31):

This drum?

Speaker 2 (01:11:33):

There's got to be some asshole.

Speaker 3 (01:11:34):

And now you are in people. He sucks. Well, I don't give a

Speaker 2 (01:11:37):

Shit. I don't think so.

Speaker 3 (01:11:38):

He's a total legend. But I walk into their dressing room and I have a drum shirt on and the drummer, Taylor Hawkins, go like, dude, are you a drummer? Yes. And they all go, yes, finally. And they told me that the guy before who was from a huge magazine asked them question, how do you like Sweden? And they're like, yeah, but we just saw an airport, a cab, a backstage, a stage, and then a cab, and then a hotel, and then a cab, and then an airport. And then they start asking, do you know about this Swedish artist? And they're like, no, I'm

Speaker 2 (01:12:17):

Sorry. We don't. It's so infuriating.

Speaker 3 (01:12:19):

It's not that hard to actually get to know someone

Speaker 2 (01:12:22):

If you're talking the same. It's so infuriating because it means that the person doesn't respect you

(01:12:28):

Enough to engage you. And I just remember this interview I did once and again, I don't think that I'm one of these guys like Dave Gro or whatever, but I did this interview once where I had just recorded Black Dahlia murder drums in Detroit, which it's not a very cool city. Sorry. It's just not, it's dangerous and dirty. And I did an interview with this lady who wanted to talk to me about Detroit. It's like all she would do is talk to about Detroit. So what do you think of Detroit? What do you think? Detroit's music scene, what did you think of What sets Detroit apart? It's like, I'm not from fucking Detroit. Why are you talking to me about Detroit? Why are you wasting your time and my time? I was here for a week to record some drums, and then I left.

Speaker 3 (01:13:21):

I stared into a screen

Speaker 2 (01:13:24):

And I got driven from Brian's house to the studio, to Brian's house, to the studio, to the airport. That's it. Why are we talking for an hour about Detroit and what I think of the future of Detroit's music scene and all this stuff? And it's just like, why? And so I can only imagine for people like Dave Grohl who are bombarded by people who want their time to have to sit there and be like, so what do you think? Is Sweden Sweden's cool? Sweden's cool. People are cool here. He seems like a really nice guy. So maybe not infuriating, but to me that shit's infuriating. So to get the chance to talk to somebody that actually is on their level as a person,

Speaker 3 (01:14:16):

I don't even have to be on their level. No. I mean, as

Speaker 2 (01:14:18):

A person,

Speaker 3 (01:14:19):

When I started talking to Roberta, not at his level, but I was so interested.

Speaker 2 (01:14:27):

What

Speaker 3 (01:14:27):

Are you

Speaker 2 (01:14:27):

Doing? I mean, wavelength.

Speaker 3 (01:14:28):

Oh, I see it. What you mean?

Speaker 2 (01:14:29):

I don't mean level and career. I mean, on the same wavelength on a human level, it's refreshing,

Speaker 3 (01:14:37):

But that's what everyone wants.

Speaker 2 (01:14:38):

Yeah, totally.

Speaker 3 (01:14:40):

That's just what it is. But another thing that wasn't, when you're asking what you need to do, when you want to get into this thing, I think it's important to know that you're getting into it. You're not in it. You aren't like this. I

Speaker 2 (01:15:03):

Never crossed the threshold yet.

Speaker 3 (01:15:06):

I never called myself a producer until I was,

Speaker 2 (01:15:08):

And

Speaker 3 (01:15:09):

I see so many people calling themselves producers, and I'm like, but you're not a producer. But I recorded this album with your band. You're in the band. You're the songwriter. You're not a producer for, you're not hired by bands to produce. If you are great, then you're a producer and you should be a producer and you should be proud of that. And I encourage people to be that. But if I'm the drum tech on an album, that was a long time I was, or a long time ago. But if that's what I am, that's what I am. And I should be proud of that. If I am the engineer on an album or a producer on an album or just mixing an album or whatever, it's just mastering an album or whatever. That's what you are in that situation, and that's what you should be proud of.

Speaker 2 (01:15:54):

I'm laughing because I agree with you so much. I feel that way about the word entrepreneur. I was afraid to call myself one for the longest time because I know so many people who are fake. We call them entrepreneurs, they just want that title. They want to post a picture of themselves at the beach and hashtag entrepreneur life. And it's like they don't have a business. They want to, but they're not. And so it takes people who are real entrepreneurs who started something and it's successful and they work their fucking asses off and years go by and it's still working. It takes away from the meaning of the word. And it took five years. UM is about to turn five. It took until very recently to where I was. I think I can call myself this and feel good about it real.

Speaker 3 (01:16:53):

And when you do, you feel so much better instead of

Speaker 2 (01:16:57):

Yeah, because

Speaker 3 (01:16:57):

A real thing so often like, Hey, meet Jacob. You're at a party or you're out bar hopping or whatever. You have to meet Jacob. He also has a studio. Oh, cool. You also have a studio. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And he shows me its his bedroom, and he goes, I'm also a producer. Okay, what have you done? No, I record. Okay, what do you do? No, I haven't done anything with it, and I just gone for a year, but I am a producer with a studio. No, but if you are or if you are on that level and then you work yourself to where you are a producer, then I'm so in support of what you do. And then I will be the first one to high five.

Speaker 2 (01:17:42):

So I think what's important about that, because some people might interpret that as being s snappy, but it's not, but it's self-awareness is super important because the opposite of self-awareness I think is self delusion. And if you're delusional about where you're at, you're going to have a real hard time moving forward. You

Speaker 3 (01:18:03):

Talked about that with

Speaker 2 (01:18:05):

Susan, right? Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:18:07):

Very interesting.

Speaker 2 (01:18:08):

I think about it a lot because like I said, I struggled with labeling myself as that because there's so many people who are labeled themselves as entrepreneurs, and it's kind of embarrassing. I don't want to see myself as one of those, the fake types. So I think if you label yourself as something, you're not like producer, that's not a producer, yet you're giving yourself a false positive, which means that you're tricking yourself into thinking you're further along than you are, which means that you're already going to feel like the work you already did, a lot of the work that you didn't do, which means that you're going to do less work, which means that you're going to advance more slowly and maybe not get your goals achieved. So you need to be very, very honest, I think, and very straightforward with yourself. If you're not there yet, you're not there yet. It doesn't mean you're a shitty person. It just means you're not there yet.

Speaker 3 (01:19:07):

It doesn't mean that you're bad either.

Speaker 2 (01:19:08):

No,

Speaker 3 (01:19:09):

You can be great.

Speaker 2 (01:19:10):

You

Speaker 3 (01:19:11):

Just have to do some work. I mean, you can be the best engineer ever, but you have to do it.

Speaker 2 (01:19:21):

But yeah, there needs to be some stuff that happened in the real world to qualify for the title, I

Speaker 3 (01:19:27):

Think.

Speaker 2 (01:19:28):

But since it's a title that it's not officially given, you graduate a Navy Seal school and now you're a Navy Seal or something, or graduate the police academy, now you're a police officer or you get your graduate medical school or whatever. This is something that really only you can honestly say what you are. And so it's that much more important to be super honest with yourself because there's no external certification system for it. But the more brutal are, the easier I think it's going to be to move forward. You can see where you have to go. And I agree. It's not a value judgment. It doesn't mean you're bad or less of a person or anything like that. There was a time when you weren't a producer yet either.

Speaker 3 (01:20:27):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (01:20:27):

Yeah. There was a time when you didn't know shit.

Speaker 3 (01:20:30):

Yeah. I mean, this world that we're in, this weird music thing, it's like a guild. You go somewhere, you work with someone, you learn the trade, you find your niche, or you find your thing what you do, and that's how you become good at it. Or that's why it's so important to work with others, especially when you start. Because if you're good about it and you're showing that, yeah, I am an asset, I'm not your competition, or like you asked before, do you think that people think that, oh, they're going to steal my clients. If he mixes the album, then it's going to go like, you should come to me next time. Yeah, maybe they do, but it could happen. Sure, sure it could. But that's just, yeah, and that's super shitty. But I mean, if the band feels that, oh, he should do it, I've had that happen. And then

Speaker 2 (01:21:41):

Who hasn't?

Speaker 3 (01:21:42):

Yeah. But then the producer says, Hey, Jacob, do you want to be on the album with me doing it at my place next time? Yeah, that would be fun. Let's do it. Great.

Speaker 2 (01:21:54):

And if it does happen also. So two things I want to key in on be an asset. I think that that's the secret to everything is be an asset.

Speaker 3 (01:22:06):

I get so many emails like, Hey, I just finished, or I am in audio school and I want to come intern with you. And then they just say what they're getting out of it. And I'm like, those are the funniest great for you.

Speaker 2 (01:22:22):

I saved the best ones. So funny. But sometimes I give talks about this stuff and I'll black out the person's name, but I'll read these to, because those always make me laugh because it's the exact opposite of what you should be doing. Yeah. They'll tell me all about themselves and their goals. And the thing is, nobody gives a fuck about your goals. I mean, I hate to say it, but nobody gives a fuck. I don't. It's weird. I do want to see students of URM succeed, but if someone is to hit me up for work and they're just telling me their goals, I immediately don't give a fuck. And I don't want to talk to them anymore. I want to hear about what they are going to bring to the table.

Speaker 3 (01:23:22):

But it's funny when someone says, Hey, we should work together. This is what I get out of it.

Speaker 2 (01:23:26):

Great. That's so cool.

Speaker 3 (01:23:29):

What about, that's sick, dude. Yeah. And some people say, I'm super good at experimenting with sounds, and I'm like, yeah, because why? Bands pay me to get me in my studio so my assistant can fuck around with their like, no, it doesn't work like that. It's weird.

Speaker 2 (01:23:51):

So what's an email that you would respond to?

Speaker 3 (01:23:55):

I will work my ass off and be the best assistant you've ever had, and you'll have fun. I'll walk your dog. I'm sorry, it's not here right now. I'm

Speaker 2 (01:24:08):

Pissed

Speaker 3 (01:24:08):

About that. Yeah, I know. Me and my ex are doing the every other month thing, so it's her month. If you had been here a week from now, he would've been here. He has Japanese fans, by the way, they've sent fan art and videos.

Speaker 2 (01:24:26):

That's amazing. And I believe in that studio dog.

Speaker 3 (01:24:30):

No, but I will make your life easier in the studio while I'm learning, and I will be an asset and maybe a friend. My last assistant, kj, great guy, he's now guitar attacking with Evergreen and some other bands, live Cyra and Nightlight Orchestra, et cetera. He told me he was here recording with the band. That's how I got to know him. And he told me I'm moving.

Speaker 2 (01:25:01):

He was in the band?

Speaker 3 (01:25:02):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:25:03):

Okay.

Speaker 3 (01:25:03):

And he said, I'm moving to Gothenburg. I'm going to be your assistant. And I'm like, yeah, yeah. Maybe you're not.

Speaker 2 (01:25:10):

Yeah, you weirdo.

Speaker 3 (01:25:11):

Yeah. And he's like, but I'll, I'll be the best assistant ever. And I said, yeah, sure. Move here. I can't guarantee anything, but we'll try it for a week or two. And he stayed for a year and a half. Same thing with the guy before him, Christopher, who's a great dude and great mixer mixing engineer, and he wanted in. And I said, sure. Finally. I said, sure, let's try

Speaker 2 (01:25:40):

Finally after how

Speaker 3 (01:25:42):

Much? Yeah, a bunch. But I said, yeah, let's try a week or two. So

Speaker 2 (01:25:47):

What's

Speaker 3 (01:25:47):

The difference? And then I just prolonged it because he was right. I loved it.

Speaker 2 (01:25:50):

What's the difference between, because that could go any way. I'm going to move here and be your assistant. It's like, alright for a day

Speaker 3 (01:26:00):

And then

Speaker 2 (01:26:01):

No, then you're a day. I mean, it's like, all right, you fucking stalker, punisher, weirdo. What the fuck you mean? You're going to move here and be, it could be like that. Or it could be like, cool. What's the difference?

Speaker 3 (01:26:14):

The look in the eyes. You have to look for the

Speaker 2 (01:26:17):

Crazy. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:26:18):

Now

Speaker 2 (01:26:19):

The crazy is a real thing.

Speaker 3 (01:26:23):

I think we're back to why you do this. It's the same thing. Why do you want to be in a band? Do you want to be in a band so you can walk around the bars in your city or town just saying, yeah, I'm that guy in that band. Oh, cool. He's in a band. Yeah, I'm in a band. I stay on stage and twirl my hair and play guitar, but you don't really play anywhere. But I'm in a band. Are you in a band because you want to be a guy that's in a band? Or are you in a band because you're driven by a passion to play music? Are you recording because it's a cool thing. Are you aspiring to be a producer because it's a cool thing, or you can meet celebrities or say that you work with cool shit? Or are you in it because I'm in it because I have to, not because I want to. There's many times I wish I didn't want to, but

Speaker 2 (01:27:18):

It is what it is.

Speaker 3 (01:27:19):

It's a calling. It's like being a priest who doesn't. Yeah. I heard the call from God and I hate the guy for it. I do this because I have to. This is a passion, and that's the only reason you should be in it. And everything else that comes with it, the things that people see. Oh, you get to travel, or you met that guy, or you had that band in your studio, or whatever. Those are perks. Those shouldn't be the reasons you're doing it.

Speaker 2 (01:27:48):

That guy, Nick who came with me, that's how he became Andrew Wade's intern and assistant. We stole him from Andrew. But

Speaker 3 (01:27:58):

You bastard.

Speaker 2 (01:27:59):

Yeah. Well, what can I say? Made the better man win. But his whole goal, he's from Pittsburgh, and Andrew Wade's in Florida. He moved to Florida to become Andrew Wade's assistant, but he didn't know Andrew Wade yet. He just decided that he's going to move, and that could be creepy,

Speaker 3 (01:28:22):

Except

Speaker 2 (01:28:22):

It's not in his case. And

Speaker 3 (01:28:24):

It happens and it's creepy. And then you have to, it hasn't happened to me like that, but yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:28:29):

Yeah. So he decided

Speaker 3 (01:28:31):

It has, sorry. A Canadian guy stood outside and said he wanted to be my assistant, but he didn't move here for it. But it was weird. But it's just, if it happens, what? I mean,

Speaker 2 (01:28:43):

It can go either way. So with Nick, he decided he's going to do that. And so he enrolled in full sail, not because he wanted to go to Full Sail, but just so that he was 18 or something. So his parents would send him down there, and he made friends with Andrew on Facebook and waited for an opportunity. The opportunity came up when Andrew was building his studio and he needed help. And so he put a public call out for people to come help build walls and stuff. And so Nick showed up and then showed up again, and then showed up again and showed up again. And after a few days, all the other helpers quit, but he just kept showing up, which led to a job

Speaker 4 (01:29:24):

And

Speaker 2 (01:29:25):

So on and so forth. And for some reason, it wasn't creepy with him, probably because people, Andrew recognize that there's something about him. Of

Speaker 3 (01:29:34):

Course,

Speaker 2 (01:29:35):

On the level.

Speaker 3 (01:29:36):

Yeah, probably that passion.

Speaker 2 (01:29:38):

Yeah. I mean, it was the same reason that we hired him to do video before he had ever done video in his life. We figured that he would, I don't know, it was just in his personality. We figured that if we give him this position and train him, he'll get great at it. And it worked. He didn't know if a fucking video at all when we hired him to shoot our stuff. It was just something about him seemed right. And then I'm thinking about how it could go the other way. And it's like I've had people,

Speaker 3 (01:30:15):

You have to be crazy, but you have to be

Speaker 2 (01:30:17):

The right kind of crazy, the right kind of crazy.

Speaker 3 (01:30:20):

That is what it is.

Speaker 2 (01:30:21):

Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:30:21):

Because you see that little, the good crazy

Speaker 2 (01:30:24):

In

Speaker 3 (01:30:24):

Most of us. It is a crazy Sure, of course. I mean, that's just how it is. But it's also about being, it's going to sound like I'm fucking Jack Black, but you have to be a servant to the music. You have to be, can't be king of music. You have to be slave to the music. You have to be willing to, at least for me, but to do this. And sometimes I do lectures and workshops and clinics and shit. And I was at MI in Hollywood a year and a half ago. I'm going back there in October actually to do it again. And I got questions, and I usually do on these things. I got the question, what's your advice to us to do the thing you do or give us advice? And I said, the best advice is just prepare. You have to sacrifice and have to sacrifice so much. When I'm saying this, I know that most of you think that you know what it is, but you don't. You have to look at yourselves and see, what can I sacrifice? What am I willing to sacrifice for a long time? Like food, money, girlfriends, boyfriends, security time, social life, all of that, and just do this if you realize that that's what it is. But that's usually what, not for everyone, but most of us. It was like that for me. For sure.

(01:32:03):

And you need a bit of crazy to do that. The thing, it's not just about us. It's about everyone that is driven by passion. To do something, you have to be crazy enough to sacrifice everything else.

Speaker 2 (01:32:16):

What's interesting to me is did it feel like a sacrifice to you? Because it didn't to me.

Speaker 3 (01:32:22):

No. You just realize after

Speaker 2 (01:32:23):

You just do it.

Speaker 3 (01:32:24):

But people have also asked, but if you would do it again, if you had to do it again, you would. And I'm like, fuck. No, never. I realize now how extremely tough it was, and I never had a plan B because I knew if I have a plan B, I'm going to go to plan B when it's tough. So I made sure I didn't have a plan B because then I

Speaker 2 (01:32:51):

Couldn't plan B.

Speaker 3 (01:32:51):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:32:52):

If you have a plan B, it also means you're not trying hard enough on plan A.

Speaker 3 (01:32:55):

But now we're back to talking about the social security of Sweden and how that, but I mean, yeah, you still have to,

Speaker 2 (01:33:04):

The thing is you might have the social security of Sweden, but Sweden can't buy you into the music industry.

Speaker 3 (01:33:11):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:33:12):

Sweden can't give you a name or recording clients or talent or any of that stuff. And social security are not the personal relationships and all that stuff that you have to sacrifice. No government system is going to save that for you, in my opinion. Yeah, it's true. So there's still this huge human aspect of what you need to sacrifice to make it work, even if there's a bit of a financial safety net. But I just got to say that for me, the shit never felt like sacrifice.

Speaker 3 (01:33:46):

No. Until you realize after that it was that. It

Speaker 2 (01:33:49):

Is. It was.

Speaker 3 (01:33:50):

Yeah. But it's more about knowing. I didn't feel like it was a sacrifice, but I knew I had to do, there were some conscious steps, small steps, big or decisions. Are you want to go out tonight? No. What are you doing this summer? Just recording.

Speaker 2 (01:34:11):

But the thing is,

Speaker 3 (01:34:13):

Want to go, I like you, we should have it. Or it's more like it didn't work out. That's more how it was. I couldn't really do friends. I couldn't really do social life for a while because I had to focus on this bullshit.

Speaker 2 (01:34:33):

So my first real girlfriend contacted me on Facebook from 20 years ago. So I chatted with her and I remembered her breaking up with me, but apparently I broke up with her and forgot about it. She said that I broke up with her and told her I just didn't have time for her. The end. I had music to deal with when I was 18 or 19 or something like

Speaker 3 (01:34:58):

That. Well, you did say you were a monster when you were young.

Speaker 2 (01:35:00):

Yeah. So I believe it. I'm sure I said that, but she said it. I don't know how I confused it and thought that she broke up with me all these years, but apparently

Speaker 3 (01:35:12):

That's what we do though.

Speaker 2 (01:35:13):

Yeah. We changed

Speaker 3 (01:35:14):

Things with memories.

Speaker 2 (01:35:15):

Yeah. It's weird. We changed things around, but apparently, yeah, apparently I told her I had to focus on music and didn't have time for her. The end goodbye.

Speaker 3 (01:35:27):

But in other times in life, that can also be your best teammate. I've had that.

Speaker 2 (01:35:36):

Yeah. But that wasn't her, huh? Yeah, but that wasn't her.

Speaker 3 (01:35:40):

Yeah. Yeah. But what I mean is that sometimes it can be both.

Speaker 2 (01:35:46):

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Speaker 3 (01:35:47):

But either way, it's still a sacrifice. Sometimes it's a sacrifice for two people that happens, but you do it or you don't.

Speaker 2 (01:35:58):

The thing that's interesting to me though is that it never was a question though. So do you want to go out tonight? No. It wasn't like, oh, I really want to go out, but I got to practice guitar. Fuck. It was like, fuck no, I don't want to go out tonight. I got to practice guitar. It was never a question. And so whenever I see that, it's a question for people that makes me suspect of their intentions and how committed they are. Because as far as I remember, it wasn't, it didn't feel like a sacrifice. Like you said, you figure it out later, but it was never like, God, I wish I could go to that party, but I have to do this fucking

Speaker 3 (01:36:40):

Music instead. But it can be the big picture. Oh, I wish you see another kind of life. You see a life you could have, but you realize that, yeah, but I want, this is what I need. And you're back to Satan and his running exercises.

Speaker 2 (01:36:58):

Well, hey, I mean, life's a choice. Whatever you choose that you want, there's something that comes with that. If you choose, you want a normal life, you're not going to get this one.

Speaker 3 (01:37:11):

Yeah, and that's fine. There's nothing wrong with

Speaker 2 (01:37:13):

It. No, no. There is nothing wrong with it. But I think back to self-awareness, people should be non delusional, should be aware of what it is that they want and what it is that they have to do in order to get there. And where it is that they are in relation to what they want. It's already hard enough, so don't need to make it harder for

Speaker 4 (01:37:35):

Yourself.

Speaker 2 (01:37:36):

So at what point do you feel like, I guess you turn the corner or

Speaker 4 (01:37:41):

With

Speaker 2 (01:37:43):

Your career, because like you said, that now it's a lot easier to make new relationships and get work.

Speaker 3 (01:37:51):

Of course.

Speaker 2 (01:37:52):

Yeah, of course. But when do you feel like you turned the corner to where it is more like critical mass to where it started? The momentum started to carry itself.

Speaker 3 (01:38:07):

It's always corners. It's still corners. It's like leveling. You reach new levels and you still do. And sometimes you even go down a level. That's how it is for everyone. But there are these part goals and there's not really, you'll never reach it. But of course there's a critical mass one,

Speaker 2 (01:38:30):

Sorry, the critical mass. Back to what you said earlier about either being in it in the real music industry versus wanting to be that one.

Speaker 3 (01:38:40):

Yeah. But those are several. One is when you decide that this is what you do. I decided when I was 15 that I'm going to work with music. And people went like, yeah, but everyone says that when they're 15. But to me, I knew that that's what I'm going to do. Another turning a corner or a new level was my first paid job, even if it was shit pay and it was a shit job. It was actually a fun job. But that was a turning point for sure. Your first paid job by someone you don't know, even if it's 50 bucks or 50 bucks on a pizza, which it wasn't, but you get what I'm saying. And the next one was where I stopped doing other stuff. I dropped other stuff that I knew that I had to drop because I wanted to focus on this thing. The next level would be, yeah, now all my income is from this, and that's just what you do to me. It's not one corner. It's many corners.

Speaker 2 (01:39:58):

I agree with that.

Speaker 3 (01:39:58):

And levels

Speaker 2 (01:39:59):

Interesting thing.

Speaker 3 (01:40:00):

Another was when I stopped, not stopped, you should never stop. But when I didn't have to scout out every job that I got, but people started to contact me.

Speaker 2 (01:40:13):

That's kind of what I mean too.

Speaker 3 (01:40:14):

That's a big one.

Speaker 2 (01:40:15):

Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:40:15):

That's a huge one. And that almost got me now, I hear from bands now that say, yeah, we wanted to work with you, but we can't afford $1,200 a day. And I'm like, where did you hear that price? That's not what I charge at all. And they're like, yeah, but that's what we heard. But she just asked me and some bands say, we wanted to work with you, but we are not on your level. And I'm like, but that's for me to decide. Maybe I would've loved to work with you guys, but you should call me or just write an email. And I didn't even know you were existing until now when you just told me. So in a way, it backfires on you when you get more successful. But of course, that was a big thing when people started to get in touch and you didn't have to scout every job out. That's a big turning corner.

Speaker 2 (01:41:22):

I know several people who have that problem that people decide that they're too expensive for them.

Speaker 3 (01:41:29):

Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:41:29):

When they don't even know, hear it all the time, they don't even know what they charge.

Speaker 3 (01:41:32):

Yeah. I hear it all the time and it's stupid.

Speaker 2 (01:41:34):

I wonder what causes it. Yeah, it's kind of weird. It is. I don't know what the solution for it is either, but I've actually heard this from quite a few people who are really sick producers and mixers, who I'm sure people would love to work with. And the only reason they don't work with them is because they were afraid to contact them. They thought, yeah, either this guy is out of our price range or we're not good enough for him.

Speaker 3 (01:42:11):

But that's not up to you to decide.

Speaker 2 (01:42:12):

Right?

Speaker 3 (01:42:13):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:42:16):

Dude, I wanted Andy Sne to mix my band.

Speaker 4 (01:42:20):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:42:20):

He wouldn't do it, but I found that out. I tried.

Speaker 4 (01:42:24):

Right.

Speaker 2 (01:42:25):

Colin Richardson did though. So that worked, but I tried hard to get Andy to do it. He wouldn't do it. He didn't want

Speaker 3 (01:42:34):

To. Yeah. But then,

Speaker 2 (01:42:35):

Yeah, exactly. We were definitely not on his level, but let him say it.

Speaker 3 (01:42:41):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:42:41):

Yeah,

Speaker 3 (01:42:42):

That's fine.

Speaker 2 (01:42:43):

Totally.

Speaker 3 (01:42:43):

But it's not fine not asking and then be

Speaker 2 (01:42:46):

Like assuming.

Speaker 3 (01:42:47):

Yeah, yeah, exactly. But I don't know. It's about the thing that we were talking about, the turning a corner or the critical mass

Speaker 2 (01:42:58):

Thing. Yeah. How long did that take?

Speaker 3 (01:42:59):

Yeah, from what? From my first recording to when I was only doing this? Yeah, that's a long time. I did my first recording with my band in 97, or if you count really shitty recordings. It was in 96 and I was quitting everything else in 2009. That's when I dropped. Then. I've been doing this for money for a long time, but that's when I dropped my final side income or side hustle, or I dropped the last thing. It was a band I was in for. We played for money, and I think that was the last side gig I had.

Speaker 2 (01:43:45):

So it was 2009.

Speaker 3 (01:43:46):

Yeah, you said,

Speaker 2 (01:43:47):

Okay. So 97 to 2009 is 12 years until you were full-time.

Speaker 3 (01:43:53):

Right.

Speaker 2 (01:43:53):

And then full-time

Speaker 3 (01:43:55):

From the first shitty recording.

Speaker 2 (01:43:57):

Yeah. Okay.

Speaker 3 (01:43:58):

So that's a big, I mean that first, what does this button do on this very basic digital recording box? That's a big

Speaker 2 (01:44:13):

Gap, but still a gap that everyone needs to cross. But then in 2009, were you full-time and being sought out or, because that's not always the same thing. Sometimes people are full-time just because they hustle like crazy, but they're not yet at the point where people are seeking them

Speaker 3 (01:44:35):

Out. Yeah. 2009, I was sought out as drum tech. I did a bunch of albums in 2009 actually, but I was also sought out for my own studio. Not sought out now, but also not just, please come record with me.

Speaker 2 (01:45:01):

So how long did it take from between 2009 until when you were a hundred percent studio?

Speaker 3 (01:45:08):

A hundred percent sought out or, yeah, I don't know. A couple of years.

Speaker 2 (01:45:14):

So

Speaker 3 (01:45:14):

You're looking at, but it's also, I mean, everything is relationships still, like we talked about earlier. In a way, if I go out and have a beer and a band comes up and they're like, dude, we worked with you on that thing four years ago, and you start talking to them and it ends with they coming back to you, did I seek the job out or did they come to me? Or is it just having your relations up to dates?

Speaker 2 (01:45:46):

I'm not sure. I mean, see, it all works together, but I think that there's a difference between being full-time in your local scene versus having say people from other countries trying to find you.

Speaker 3 (01:46:05):

Yeah. It's also been, like I said, it's always moving and it's always, always new levels, the level I love going to other places to work. That's a fun level. That's been going for a couple of years. Yeah. We want to work with you. We can't afford to come to Sweden because we live in the States, but you can come over here.

Speaker 2 (01:46:30):

Sure. That's spot. That was a cool one.

Speaker 3 (01:46:32):

That's great.

Speaker 2 (01:46:33):

Yeah. That was around the time, around the time that I stopped producing to do what I'm doing now.

Speaker 4 (01:46:40):

I

Speaker 2 (01:46:41):

Was doing that a lot, traveling to England or whatever to go produce. I thought that was really cool. That was actually one of my goals was to get flown to other countries to produce, and

Speaker 3 (01:46:55):

It's fun.

Speaker 2 (01:46:55):

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think this is a good time to end it. Unfortunately. I have a flight at 6:00 AM and I got to go pack.

Speaker 3 (01:47:03):

Damn.

Speaker 2 (01:47:04):

Yeah, but it's been sick talking to you.

Speaker 1 (01:47:08):

The

Speaker 2 (01:47:08):

Unstoppable

Speaker 1 (01:47:09):

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