JEFF BALDING: Working with The Eagles & Megadeth, The Power of Authenticity, How Discipline Fuels Creativity

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast. And now your host, Eyal Levi. I want to take a second to tell you about something that I am very excited about and it's the URM Summit. Once a year, we hold an event where hundreds of producers from all over the world come together for four days of networking, workshops, seminars, and hanging out. This industry is all about relationships. And think about it, what could you gain from getting to personally know your peers from all over the world who have the same goals as you, the same struggles as you, and who can help, inspire you, motivate you, as well as become potential professional collaborators? This year's summit is on November 9th through 11th at the Las Vegas Weston, which is just one block off of the strip, and it's going to be even bigger and better than ever. We're anticipating even more producers, plus a lineup of amazing guests like Jens Borin, Kris Crummett Machine, Forrester, ve Michael Legian, DaVero, Billy Decker, Chris Adler, Mary Zimmer, Mike Mowry, Jesse Cannon Blasco, Jason Berg, Jessica Lohan, and Moore. And of course, our musical guest, the one and only Arc expire. So get your summit tickets [email protected] and we will see you in Vegas. So with me today is Mr. Jeff Balding, who is a producer among producers, multi-platinum, eight times Grammy nominated, has worked with a laundry list of superstars such as the Eagles, Don Henley, Peter Frampton, Taylor Swift, Blake Shelton, and of course Megadeath. Jeff, thank you for being on the Unstoppable Recording Machine podcast. Appreciate you being here,

Speaker 2 (00:01:54):

Man. Absolutely. I'm glad to be here.

Speaker 1 (00:01:57):

So you've worked with quite a few heavy hitters. It's an impressive list. Is there anything that you find in common between these types of overachievers? I know that they're all unique. They're all unique, they're their own artists, but is there anything that you've noticed that just sets them apart or something that tangible that you could even notice in an up and coming artist that lets you say, yeah, that person has what these big deal superstars have?

Speaker 2 (00:02:32):

One common thread I notice is that a lot of the really successful artists that's been around and has a sustained career, and I mean besides obviously great music, great songs,

Speaker 1 (00:02:45):

That aside

Speaker 2 (00:02:46):

And talent is a big part of it, that aside, is the focus on their career and the input that they have in their career. They don't really rely on, they rely people around them. They have a good team around them, but they also, they know their fan base, they know their tribe, should I say, and they're very involved in making decisions in their career and where they want it to go and what they believe in it. And those are the ones that I see have a really long sustained career that they get it and they're involved and they're not relying on somebody else to drive the bus in a sense

Speaker 1 (00:03:25):

That matches exactly what I've noticed too. And what I try to tell people who are students of ours coming up, we get lots of questions about when should I hire a publicist or I want to hire a publicist, I want to get a manager, all this stuff before they're even ready. And what they don't seem to understand that I try to help people understand is a publicist can only really get publicity when there is something to publicize. They don't create your story for you. They take your story and then get it out to people with a manager. Manager needs something to manage. A label needs an artist to exploit.

Speaker 2 (00:04:06):

Yeah, that's exactly it.

Speaker 1 (00:04:08):

I mean, exploit in the good sense of the word. And it reminds me of something that I heard Eddie Kramer say, actually, he came to speak when I was at Berkeley. He gave a masterclass and actually asked him this question. What sets in your mind, what made Jimi Hendrix and Jimmy Page, what set them apart, obviously besides the great music? What was it that they had? I mean, Jimi Hendrix and Jimmy Page, all timers, and he said they had vision, whereas most artists can see 15 feet ahead of them, these guys could see three football fields ahead, and they just knew they had the vision for where things were going and how things were supposed to be. And so they were true leaders.

Speaker 2 (00:05:02):

And even on a more granular level, I think they really know, it comes down to the song and what they wanted, the story they want to tell, what they want to communicate to fans, to the world, and knowing how to take care of their tribe and how to speak to their core fan base. And that's really the key. I mean, you look at some of these bands like the Eagles and stuff, the songs were amazing and their memories in people's lives when that song played or what they used that song for. And I think that's the case with a lot of artists and the ones, and even Megadeath, Dave knows his fan base and knows what songs and what works with them, and I think that's crucial. You take care of the core and then you go out from there. And Taylor Swift too, I mean,

Speaker 1 (00:05:54):

That's who I was about to say. She is amazing at it.

Speaker 2 (00:05:57):

Talk about somebody that knows somebody that knows what songs she needs to be singing and what songs are her is from the beginning. I mean, that was one of the most amazing things in the beginning of her career. Well, she got that early on, and I think that's a big deal in sustaining a career and taking a career up to the level she has

Speaker 1 (00:06:22):

With Taylor Swift. I think it's interesting too that her marketing game, and I don't mean album marketing, I just mean her social media, the types of video interviews that she does, the way she portrays herself. It's so perfect for the type of person who would buy Taylor Swift music. And I come from the metal world, which is a very closed off world, and sometimes they'll talk shit about artists like Taylor Swift and what they're failing to realize is that's not for you. She's not reaching out to you with what she's doing. You're not her target demographic in the least. So talk all the shit you want, but this is not some metal band who put out a record that you just don't like. This is someone making music for a whole other community and she has it nailed. Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (00:07:20):

Absolutely. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:07:22):

When you say that they understand what music is, right. I think this is interesting what the pop artists, especially this notion out there that a lot of them don't write their own songs. And I know that a lot of 'em do have teams of writers coming in that taken into consideration. How do you see their artistic vision being channeled through having other people's songs or working with other songwriters? How do they keep it true to who they are?

Speaker 2 (00:07:57):

Yeah, I mean, I've worked with artists that are very involved in writing their songs and to artists, big artists that never wrote a word, but what they knew is they knew what was authentic, they knew what they could say, and it was authentic to who they were, and it was something they wanted to say. And I think, man, that's a foundational part of an artist is knowing what you want to say. And when you figure that out and you find the things that connect to your fans, especially like I say, the core tribe, then you're on your way. And I think that's the hardest thing for a lot of young artists to figure out is, and when young folks, I want to be an artist. I want to figure this out, I want to do it. And it's like, well, what do you want to say? That's one of the first questions I ask because I think that's essential because there's authenticity. If you're not being authentic, man people, they'll smell that out right away.

Speaker 1 (00:08:59):

Oh, yes.

Speaker 2 (00:08:59):

And it's got to be authentic to you. And I think you can get that, and I know you can from outside writing, but you have to connect with the song. And we have songs we hear that we connect with and go, oh man, absolutely. Over and over. And I think I've worked with some artists too that are big artists that I've taken them hit songs and it's like they'll go, there's one artist in particular that would go, that's a hit song, but it's not me. And that's a brave decision there. I've seen songs turned down by artists that other artists cut and they become a number one, and some of 'em were, I don't like that song. It just didn't connect with them. It wasn't that it wasn't a hit song, it just didn't connect and wasn't right for 'em. And so those are the kind of decisions that really take some guts to make by an artist

Speaker 1 (00:09:48):

When you're working with, I guess developing artist and you ask them the what do you want to say? Question? And the answer is vague. How do you deal with it as a producer,

Speaker 2 (00:10:03):

Man? Well, you got to start a conversation at that point and find out really one, you kind of find out who they are and where they came from because where they came from is part of who they are. That's part of the authenticity. There's one artist I worked with on a developmental side that kept wanting to be something that they weren't. And it is like the minute they brought in some of their past and how they grew up, the music, they listened to some of that influence into their music, people connected to it, and it's the most amazing thing when you see it happen. It's like, but then they still didn't want to do that. They kept pushing back the other way and it never did work for 'em. And I really think that's because they weren't being authentic to who they were.

Speaker 1 (00:10:57):

It's really, really interesting how the audience just has, it's almost like a bullshit meter, and it's not based on anything really, I guess quantifiable. I think it's just kind of a feeling, I think. But they feel that authenticity when you're hearing a song if the artist really, really means it. Just like when you're watching a movie, if you forget you're watching a movie and you really feel like what's going on on the screen is actually happening, I mean, it could be the most unrealistic thing on earth, but you're watching it and you're in it. That's the artist connecting with the material and making it their own. And you can tell.

Speaker 2 (00:11:48):

Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (00:11:49):

You can tell when it's bullshit.

Speaker 2 (00:11:51):

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:11:52):

Why do you think that that artist resisted it? Do you have any thoughts on that or what have you noticed about artists that do tend to resist that?

Speaker 2 (00:12:03):

I think they have a vision of something they want to be. And what I've noticed in talking to a lot of artists is whether it's a rock artist before they go on stage, they're listening to Merle Haggard or a country artist that's listening to metal. I mean, all artists are influenced by other kinds of music or may have a kind of something that connects with them musically, but is not who they are. And I think some of the artists, they have a favorite kind of, maybe they want to be metal or maybe they want to be heavy rock, but they come their roots and everything may be country, but they really want to be what they love instead of who they are. And I think hopefully that makes sense and kind of clarifies that. I think a lot of artists, they don't want to be authentic in a sense. They want to become sort of the Disney character they want to be.

Speaker 1 (00:13:00):

Well, I've seen this happen even in the metal world. I remember this band, I'm not going to name them, but they got really big really fast around 2007. They were a band that they caught the MySpace wave. They were one of the first bands to effectively use MySpace for marketing, and it spread like wildfire. And these kids were like 17, 16 still in high school, and they hadn't really released anything on a label because of MySpace. Suddenly there's 500, then a thousand, then 1500, then 2000 people showing up to their shows packed. And it just out of nowhere. And this band played a style of metal that was heavy, but it was mainstream within that little world. And they would go on tour with some legit heavy hitters because their numbers were so good, they would be put on real tours. So they developed this chip on their shoulder where they wanted to be legit. They just wanted the legit credentials of being a real technical metal band. And so they kept pushing their music in that direction, which they weren't ever really great at that type of stuff, not them, but they just so badly wanted to be accepted by that crowd that they completely forgot about and abandoned what did work. And a very promising career just fell apart very quickly. I've seen it happen,

(00:14:38):

And it's all, they were pushing to be something that they weren't

Speaker 2 (00:14:41):

Well, and that's the case even for if there's students that I speak to about that, whether they want to be a mixer, a producer, an engineer, they try to emulate someone. And the thing is, if you're trying to emulate whoever it is, whether it's a mixer or a producer, if you're trying to really in detail emulate, they're still going to kick your butt. Of course they are. I mean, that's them. They, they're being authentic to who they are. They're putting forward what they hear. Now that doesn't say you can't be inspired. We're all inspired by different things and different people and what they do, but you have to digest that and make that your own. But the minute you try to emulate, you're going to lose every time.

Speaker 1 (00:15:25):

I don't know how familiar you are with what I do, what my company does, but we have proven this. We have a program called Nail the Mix where every single month we have a great mixer showing how we mix the great song. And at the beginning of the month, we release the raw, so we get them licensed and everything. So the students get to do their own practice mixes too. And you would think that after years of doing this program that we would be creating clones if it were possible to actually emulate somebody, you would think that we would be creating clones. They would just watch the person's session. They have the multi-tracks just copy. You could just screenshot everything or just go step by step by step and recreate it. And I know that some of them try to do it, and it never works. It never works because all the micro decisions and the thought behind everything, that's the part that they can't share. The way that the person actually hears it is unique to his brain and that part you can't share. So all their understanding is how he solved certain problems and what they did at that point in time, but they're missing the 10, 20, 30 years of develop hearing and thinking about the topic that got them to the point where they made these types of decisions. And so yeah, no clones, it never works.

Speaker 2 (00:17:14):

And it is a person's ear too. And even ourselves, it is been maybe three years ago, I've set up a mix for a demo for a speaker company at one of the trade shows that I took out to. And so it was a mix I'd done on the console on an analog console. So I had to match it in the box so I could take it. So I mixed it and then did a little bit after I got it mixed. I did a little a BM to pull a few levels here and there. But what was amazing was I did different things than I did the desk because I didn't have the desk. But it ended up sounding the same from the bottom end perspective, everything. And I just sort of thought gear, and believe me, I'm a big fan of gear and what analog gear, and I came out of the analog days anyway, but I was totally amazed if they weren't side by side, I wouldn't have known.

(00:18:14):

And it is the ear to go back to what we were talking about, it's the ear of the person and the experience and their thought process of what they're really thinking and hearing inside their head that pulls things the way they pull. And that puts kind of this, it's almost like you put a spirit into what you're doing, whether it's the production or the mix or whatever. And otherwise, it's kind of a lifeless body of a mix if you don't have that, if you're just sort of setting up the parameters and match and just somebody copying what someone did.

Speaker 1 (00:18:44):

Absolutely. So how do you develop that, I guess, as an artist or especially as a mixer or producer, how do you think that that's best developed?

Speaker 2 (00:18:57):

Man, I think thats takes time. That

Speaker 1 (00:19:00):

Absolutely

Speaker 2 (00:19:01):

It's developed over time and it's the influences and your opinion of going, I love what that person does something about that moves me. What is it that moves? You sort of ingest that and go, okay. And then you find maybe a twist on it that you go, oh, that's, that's it. And it's something that you do to it that makes it have a life that's authentic to yourself. Not to get too far into that sounds blue or purple. It is one of those things where you do digest a lot of stuff and ingest it, and then when it comes out of you, it's different. And I think that's the same for a musician. I mean, even you talk about maybe a guitar player that's so influenced by certain players, and you'll hear things that remind you of that player, but it's not exactly what that person would've played,

Speaker 1 (00:19:52):

Not that person,

Speaker 2 (00:19:53):

Because they're not that person and they're making it their own. So I think that's the thing. You have to make things your own and how you hear 'em and sometimes how you hear it. I mean, I came up this way when I started. I was with those guys that somehow fell into a chief engineer gig at a studio and a little studio I never assisted. So I never really had that opportunity to learn from other people. But there was a staff producer at the studio and they had a staff engineer. So when the studio wasn't booked, we would just listen to music and just find something we were blown away with and go, let's try to do that. And we'd figure out some way to do what we felt we were hearing. And when I look back, I mean, that was actually a good thing. I always regretted never learning under somebody great. But that was one of the things that I go, you know what? Maybe that was all right. It's sort of like bootcamp gorilla style and figure it out.

Speaker 1 (00:20:54):

So how did that happen? How did you just fall into that gig? Because I feel like back in those days, the template for becoming a successful producer was to come up through the industry system where you're the runner, then the intern, then the assistant, then the engineer, on and on.

Speaker 2 (00:21:16):

Yeah, I think I came into the industry at the end of that era when it was still happening, but it was kind of the end of that era where most people did come in that way. What I'd done is I went to Belmont University in Nashville and they had a music business program. It started a few years before I got in it, but I'd done some demos with some of my friends there for a band they had, and the band got signed, and the record label that signed them had just lost their chief engineer and their studio. So I never did ask, but I'm assuming they heard that I got hired right after they got signed. So I'm assuming that the demo tapes that I'd cut and mixed and just even the band going, yeah, this guy's great. I think that's what influenced me getting hired there.

Speaker 1 (00:22:14):

How did you get good enough to even be in that situation? Where did that come from?

Speaker 2 (00:22:22):

Just a lot of hours in the studio, man. If it wasn't, the university had one studio, but there was some studios on the music row in Nashville, and one in particular would let us have time from whenever the client finished, which could be midnight or 1:00 AM to 6:00 AM in the morning. So I just set the alarm, get up and go to the studio and work and do stuff. Cut, whatever anybody wanted.

Speaker 1 (00:22:51):

How old were you?

Speaker 2 (00:22:52):

Oh geez. I'd been 19, 20.

Speaker 1 (00:22:55):

Yeah, I was figuring in your teens when that would've happened. How old were you when you started recording?

Speaker 2 (00:23:01):

Oh, well, that would've been around 18, 19.

Speaker 1 (00:23:06):

Okay.

Speaker 2 (00:23:07):

I played guitar and did the usual rock band and stuff before that.

Speaker 1 (00:23:13):

And I'm guessing that in the band, you guys would go to studios?

Speaker 2 (00:23:16):

Well, no. I mean, we were in a small town. We go to the basement with a mixer and four mics and try to do something, but I never really got that deep into recording until I went to Nashville.

Speaker 1 (00:23:30):

So was this even in your set of life goals? I'm going to become a big ass producer, or it just sort of happened?

Speaker 2 (00:23:38):

Well, I mean, I don't think that decision happened until, like I said, I went to Nashville. I think the realization was I grew up in a very small town, and so there wasn't much to do, and music was definitely a passion As you're sitting there, I think as a kid, I was just sitting there going, man, what do I want to do? And you're looking at, you got everybody, whether it's your parents or ever going, now you need to get a good job at a good company and retire and the usual routine there. And I just couldn't get a feeling for that on. And somebody said to me, well, what do you want to do? And I said, man, I'd love to work in the studio, make records, whether musician, produce, whatever. I just love to do that. It was kind of the line that they said next was, so what's stopping you? It's figure it out. It's like, yeah, that's right. I can't make a decision to head that way. So I started looking around and two of the band guys went to MTSU, they had a program as well and still do. And I decided on Belmont and the roommate that I got when I went to school, he was a senior and was into engineering and everything. So he showed me a lot about engineering, introduced me to a lot of his friends, and I tutored him through math. So we traded off.

Speaker 1 (00:25:02):

Nice. I love that answer. The what's stopping you, but it's such a powerful thing to ask somebody when they're kind of unsure of things. And I've thought about it a lot because put out a piece of content, for instance, maybe an analysis of something and put it up on YouTube and you'll get some responses that are like, I want you to do this and this and this and this. And they'll list a bunch of things that I have zero interest in that I would never talk about that it's just not going to happen. It's not me at all. And my answer is always, nobody's stopping you from doing it. If you want to see that in the world, go do it. And it is the same with when I talk to students about they want to do this, but something's stopping them or really they're just stopping themselves. I always try to get them to figure out what's stopping you. And usually just the decision is what's stopping them.

Speaker 2 (00:26:10):

Yeah. Well, it was very impactful to me. It's like when they said that, it's like a light bulb went off or something. It's just a switch. And it is like, oh, well yeah, I can do that.

Speaker 1 (00:26:22):

I've always found it interesting that some people don't realize that you can just make a decision. Hopefully they figure it out at some point, hopefully while they're young. But I don't think that that's a default wiring for everybody. I think some people are born with it and God bless 'em, they're lucky. But I think that a whole lot more people, they don't have that realization. It's not innate, it's just they'd like to do something, but they don't realize that they could just go do it. And when they do realize it is. Yeah, it's a magical thing. It could be completely life-changing like it was for you.

Speaker 2 (00:27:05):

Yeah, no, it is. It's a very powerful thing when you realize that and when you're young. I think the other thing is you got nothing to lose. And it's hard to see that when you're in the moment, even at a young age, when you're in the moment to go, well, I really can. I mean, I picked up, when was it, late eighties. For some reason I always wanted to go to la, which everybody did then because that was where the big music scene was happening and the courage to do that. And it's this one day, it's like, you know what? I'm just going up and go. And I was having a lot of success. A friend of mine who was an assistant for a producer I'd worked with, he goes, well, I'll go with you. And he is like, alright. And three or four weeks later, we had a U-Haul loaded up and we were gone on our way to California, especially at a young age, you got nothing to lose. And I think even throughout your life, it's like, man, if you feel something, go for it.

Speaker 1 (00:28:02):

I mean, the worst that can happen is that it doesn't work out.

Speaker 2 (00:28:05):

That's right. And you learn from it and you go onto the next. That's it.

Speaker 1 (00:28:09):

The thing I've noticed is that the anticipation of a failure is a lot worse than the actual failure because I've been pretty fearless about when I want something, I go for it. And I haven't been afraid to leave certain careers or jobs or situations when I realized that there was something else to do. And it hasn't always worked out. It has worked out other times. But I mean whenever it hasn't worked out, it really wasn't that bad because I mean, it's cliche to say you learn from it, but it's true. You really do. And it sets you up for the next move is so much more experienced. You have to know what struggle is, and you don't really get to understand it in that context until you take leaps of faith in yourself.

Speaker 2 (00:29:07):

Yeah, that's it. And sometimes it takes a leap of faith to open things up before the next thing has room to make it in.

Speaker 1 (00:29:14):

Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (00:29:16):

It is crazy, and that's a hard walk to walk, but that's it.

Speaker 1 (00:29:21):

We have quite a few students who when they first started with us, were not professionals who now a few years later are, and they, I'm thinking of a few individuals specifically before they had a career, they did move LA and they dropped their life. Were in some cases cross country and they made it happen in la. I'm very proud of them. But they took the leap, no risk, no reward, really. And it's a big deal if you're going to drop your life and move across country or to another country. But I mean, you got to do what you got to do. If the opportunity is somewhere else and you want that opportunity, well, it's probably not going to come to you.

Speaker 2 (00:30:11):

Yeah. I always tell people when they ask, well, what should I do? I get in all this stuff. It's like, I think the best thing you can do is go wherever that is in whatever genre, whatever style of music, whatever producer, whoever it is, go to where the bar is set for you, where you think the bar is being set, go there, go get coffee, whatever it takes, just be in that room. Get in that room when you can. And around those people meet that circle of people, but at least you're going to learn where the bar really is and how they get there. And then all of a sudden that's because it reminds me, they always tell the story of where at Abbey Road, they would bring the people that were the new people into mastering first so they could learn where the bar was, and then they'd move them over into assisting and engineering and stuff.

Speaker 1 (00:31:01):

Interesting. I did not know that.

Speaker 2 (00:31:04):

I think that's, well, I'm not saying it's true, but that's what everybody always tells me. And I think it's a great concept because, and I think it's the same in what we do, whether it's producing, engineering, whatever, I think you got to get around where the bar's being set so that you can really just get that imprinted in your mind what that is, and it helps your ears trained, calibrate, and all of a sudden the mark you got to hit, you're not going to stop short because a lot of people bring stuff and go, what do you think of this mix? Or what do you think of this production? Or what do you think of this? And it just falls so short and they're thinking, well, what don't you like? I thought it was great. Well, it's because they haven't really had that bar imprinted in their mind and their ears where they're going, oh, I don't hear it.

(00:31:47):

The rest of the way, they're not hearing what that level needs to be. And then you can push hard and persistence is the next thing. It is just being persistent and getting there and not giving up and knowing that you're not going to do it in two hours that you may have to redo and redo and redo until you go, that's it. I'm feeling the motion, I'm feeling it in my gut. It's working now. But yeah, I think that's crucial. And if I got one friend, he went and worked a job for a year, year and a half, saved up every penny so he could quit for a year and go intern where at a great place where he knew he wanted to be with the people he wanted to be with, and he could afford to do that. And I think you've got to immerse yourself in that place. And that's the other side of it.

Speaker 1 (00:32:32):

So if you never really had a mentor, how did you learn where the bar was?

Speaker 2 (00:32:41):

The producer and friend that I worked with in that studio, we would, like I said, he would push me. And one of the funny lines was, okay, that sounds like a demo. How do we make it sound like a record? It's like, okay, let's figure that out. So it was a lot of just being pushed and being persistent and going, no, that's not it. No, that's not it. And having somebody to push you, it's like a workout partner in the gym. It's like somebody to go, okay, one more rep, one more rep, and just pushing you to the limit and being picky. Fortunately, this was someone that had that mindset of detail and every little detail in it, kind of like a mutt laying where it's like not only is it the note, but it's the front and the backside and the top and the bottom of the note too that you're looking at learning that detail. And once you get into that mindset of detail, and then after you do that, you got to learn to let go of the detail and also understand vibe,

Speaker 1 (00:33:43):

Man. Where do you draw the line between detail and vibe? Because I have noticed that a lot of people get lost in the details and the technicality of everything, and they do forget the big picture feel. Where do you think the line is, or better yet, how do you think you ascend from being, so I guess enveloped in the details to where you still take care of the details, but that big picture is the north star, what you're really paying attention to?

Speaker 2 (00:34:21):

That's a hard one to put into words, but I think simply, I think the detail is getting rid of the distractions. So if I'm feeling something, if I'm feeling a vocal overall, say a great verse, a great chorus, and I'm feeling it, it's moving me. But on one of the lines, all of a sudden I come out of that experience, it's like watching the movie. You come out of that experience and you're distracted. Then I go, okay, that needs fixed, because that's a distraction. So when I'm not feeling any distractions and distractions aren't necessarily out of tune notes or something out of time, sometimes everything works in favor of each other and it's a moment. And if it's out of tune, I mean, man, how many great vocals were out of tune back in the day especially, but you were in the moment and I never felt distracted.

(00:35:14):

I mean, you can listen to many of the great artists and if you really sit down and want to analyze it and go, okay, that's out of tune, that's our time. But if you're listening to the song, that's the thing. You got to be hearing the song. Once you start hearing the song, then you're getting there and you get drawn into the experience and you forget about everything. But to me, when I get rid of the distractions that pull me out of the experience, that tells me now I'm within the parameters I need to be from there. It's down to my taste. And sometimes I just need to stop because I'm only satisfying me. I'm not satisfying anybody else.

Speaker 1 (00:35:51):

Absolutely. I think the more mastery you have over the details, the more they're second nature. All the technical stuff, the better you know it, the less you have to think about it.

Speaker 2 (00:36:02):

Yeah. Yeah, that's it. I mean, the thing is getting the technical, it's like a tool belt. It's like you got to have all these tools in your belt, but you got to forget they're there. And it's just got to be second nature to pull out what you need and not think about it and not go down the rabbit hole too far on it that she pulls you off the path of the creative journey you're on within that song and staying on, that's the most important thing. And even if that means you're throwing four different things on the same track or something like that, you can always come back and organize and do those things, do the technical stuff later. But it's like, get the moment and stay in that train of thought and flush that out fully before you get distracted. So

Speaker 1 (00:36:46):

Let's talk a little bit about your move to la. You said that you were already successful in Nashville before you went to la.

Speaker 2 (00:36:55):

Yeah, I was having some success in Nashville. In fact, right before I went to LA I did a Christian record on BB and CC Winans called Heaven. And that record got quite a bit of recognition within the industry as a whole, especially the r and b genre. And so I was getting work in LA from that record.

Speaker 1 (00:37:17):

Got it.

Speaker 2 (00:37:18):

And between that and some musicians, producer musicians that I'd met that were coming to Nashville to play on tracking sessions I'd done were also into using me. And it just was a little easier decision to go to LA at that point. And so that kind of inspired the move, or at least made me feel comfortable to make the move.

Speaker 1 (00:37:46):

So you didn't go there with nothing. The momentum was already there.

Speaker 2 (00:37:51):

There was some momentum building. I wouldn't say. I was like, well, yeah, I mean, I was very young, a few things under my belt, but there was some things happening at that time. David Foster was coming to Nashville and working some because he had friends and reasons to come to Nashville, and he was just bringing some work when he'd come. And I got connected with him through Scott Hendricks, he's with Warner Brothers now, but at that time, he was producing co-producing Restless Heart, and David put one of their songs, wanted to put one of their songs in the movie, and Scott actually, he said, man, why don't you come and track this thing for me? And so I met David through that, and so when David would come to town, he'd call me and I would work on projects with him. So I had a few sort of LA connections sort of happening that, like I say, made it a little more inspiring to go out or at least comfortable.

Speaker 1 (00:38:53):

Just going to take a quick break, and I promise it's going to be quick, but it's important. I need to remind you guys, so please forgive me. This episode is brought to you by the URM Summit, four days of networking workshops, seminars, and hanging out with your URM friends and dozens of the industry's best pros. It's November eight through 11 at the Las Vegas Westin and tickets are available right [email protected]. Alright, back to the episode. That word networking, I feel like it's overused to the point where it can have a very negative connotation when you think about the wrong kind of market. I mean networking, but really without an ability to network Well, I feel like this would be pretty impossible.

Speaker 2 (00:39:43):

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it is something I think, gosh, I feel like I've been the most naive person through my career.

Speaker 1 (00:39:51):

How so?

Speaker 2 (00:39:52):

Of anybody. And I never was calculated at what I did going, oh, this would be good networking, or I should do this.

Speaker 1 (00:39:59):

Well, that's what I mean. That's the wrong way to do it.

Speaker 2 (00:40:02):

Yeah. I mean, it just happened. I never thought about it. A lot of this stuff is just, I'm amazed that just happened to be in the right place when something happened. It doesn't make anybody more talented or less talented. It's like some people are just in the right place at the right time for whatever happened in that studio or for that project or meeting somebody. And it is kind of crazy when you think about it and you can't plan those things. They just happen.

Speaker 1 (00:40:31):

Well, I mean, one thing that I heard about you is the story of how you got in with Megadeath and the gym. And I mean, that's kind of like right place, right time, but also, do you mind sharing that story? I think it's a cool one.

Speaker 2 (00:40:51):

No, I was working at the time, I was engineering for Dan Huff because he had started producing and his manager managed Mega Death and wanted to bring Mega Death to Nashville to cut a record and have Dan Produce. And so they came to town and it may not have been the first day, but it was at the beginning of the project. And I remember Dave Mustang going, I need somebody to work out with me at the gym. Does anybody want to go to the gym, work out? I need a workout partner? And I sheepishly raised my hand and said, okay, I'm in, because I like doing that. So we would go to the gym every morning before we go to the studio. And the interesting thing was we had a lot of things in common and we had children the same age and a lot of stuff, and we become really good friends through that relationship and continued to work together for many years. In fact, worked on the last record, they did some work with him on that. So man, we're like brothers. I mean, he lives in the Nashville area and I talk to him every few weeks and yeah, it's funny how something like that you bond over because you talk about a lot of things when you're just hanging out and just normal stuff, not music.

Speaker 1 (00:42:14):

I feel like the right kind of networking is the kind that you do when there's no ulterior motive really. It's just another way to say making friends.

Speaker 2 (00:42:25):

Yeah, you're right.

Speaker 1 (00:42:25):

The best collaborations I've had over the years for the most part have been through people that I've developed friendships with that were somewhat independent of the work. And when we met, even though you could call it networking, because we're both in the same industry, there was no goal for the meeting and there was no goal for our friendship. But the opportunities, the work opportunities organically grew out of our friendship, and it's in part because we like to talk to each other and be around each other, so it made sense to work together.

Speaker 2 (00:43:07):

Yeah, that's it. I think you're right on it. Again, it comes back to authenticity,

(00:43:13):

Being authentic and who you are. Any meeting that I've went into and a lot of things I've learned the hard way or learned through experience anyway, I should say, if you're really authentic to who you are and you just be yourself, sometimes that works. Sometimes it doesn't work. But the times that I've tried to go on a little more of a sales pitch, it never works. It never sustains. And the ones, the things that sustain and last are the ones that are authentic. And I think that's the hardest thing for a lot of people to learn. And I'm not a big hype person, so I never really journey down that road too much anyway. But I'm the most comfortable when I just be myself and I'm authentic to myself. And in the circumstances that you're going, okay, I've met with people that's outside genres that I work in, and some of the best friends and relationships seem to be formed that way. When you're just authentic and you're who you are, people respect that. Whether it's in their lane of what they do or not, they respect it. And sometimes that's the friendship that just bonds and things happen.

Speaker 1 (00:44:28):

Also professionally, if something because of that friendship is going to happen five or 10 years down the line.

Speaker 2 (00:44:38):

Oh, that's right.

Speaker 1 (00:44:39):

That's how a lot of these things have happened where we've been friends for 5, 6, 7 years and then an opportunity that made sense came up. But because there was an authentic friendship, we were drawn to make it work opportunity, that would've never happened if I didn't have that friend. And if I think if you approach something with somebody thinking there's an opportunity that can come out of this, but it's seven years from now, it's really hard to approach that in an inauthentic way. You'll get tired of dealing with it if it's not real, you're not going to sustain it for seven years just on the idea of a project that might happen that hasn't even been invented yet.

Speaker 2 (00:45:31):

And you have to manage your expectations in any of that when you're authentic and all of it. That's the biggest thing is managing your own expectations too, is going, okay, I'm not expecting anything out of this. This is this cool. And then something happens and it's like, okay, great. This is even better.

Speaker 1 (00:45:50):

I don't know how to properly say this, but someone I know that's very close to me that I grew up with is really good friends with a billionaire. They've known each other for 30 years now, and they're really good friends. And at the beginning when they were just kind of in the same circles and first connecting what this person did, which was different than everybody else, was to treat the billionaire like anybody else. So don't expect them to pay at dinner, split the check,

(00:46:30):

Treat him like anybody else. And they ended up becoming really, really great friends. Like I said, it's been 30 years now, and there came a point about 10 years ago where the person I'm talking about needed help on a project that only somebody with that kind of resource could help on, and he helped on it, but that was 20 years into a friendship based on mutual respect, not someone trying to gold dig him, so many people around him or trying to take advantage. A lot of people would just think, oh, he's got enough. Let him pay for dinner.

Speaker 2 (00:47:14):

Right?

Speaker 1 (00:47:15):

By treating people with respect and not having any expectations. I think that's a big one. And it's a tough one, especially when you're young because you really want things to work.

Speaker 2 (00:47:29):

Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:47:30):

It's tough to quiet that voice. I'm sure you've been to Nam.

Speaker 2 (00:47:33):

Oh, I have. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:47:34):

Yeah. I think a lot of people mess this one up at Nam with the business cards and all that. I have some questions here from our listeners for you that I'd like to ask you.

Speaker 2 (00:47:46):

Okay,

Speaker 1 (00:47:47):

Here's one from Justin l Lichens, which is, what was it like working with the Eagles? Did they have all their vocal parts already locked in before going to the studio, or were the harmony parts placed as they recorded?

Speaker 2 (00:48:00):

Those guys are very prepared. They definitely have their parts together before the studio and they dive in deep. They're very detailed oriented, and Don's very detailed in how he hears things and does things. So yeah, they definitely come prepared. And most artists, it's good to come prepared to the studio. A lot of times if an artist doesn't come prepared to the studio, then you would want to send them home anyway because you want them to, they really have to ingest this. And it's like we were talking, you've got to ingest this song and these things, and there's muscle memory. I've worked with Jewel one time, well, I've worked with her a few times, but on one record, we were doing some songs that she'd been singing on the road for several months, even a couple of years, and then a couple of songs that were new that were very fresh and she hadn't done on the road, and she had a little more time with the new songs and she said, I really think this is muscle memory in my vocal chords.

Speaker 1 (00:49:08):

Absolutely. Where you

Speaker 2 (00:49:09):

Get used to it and muscle memory and just ingesting the song and stuff. So it's so important to have that preparation. But yeah, the Eagles, and they're definitely on top of it.

Speaker 1 (00:49:20):

And I can tell you when my band would record, there would be some songs that we knew we were going to record that we would then play, we would insert them into our live set, and then we'd have 60 shows where we got to play the song that hadn't been recorded yet. And then when we'd go to record, it would just be, we'd have such an insight into how this song is supposed to be that we just couldn't have on songs that we had never really played live. And I do think it's the muscle memory, but it also think you get so familiar with it on a mental level that exactly what it's supposed to be emotionally is just there.

Speaker 2 (00:50:03):

Yeah, that's it.

Speaker 1 (00:50:05):

I think Anthony Hopkins said that to prepare for a role, he reads his lines minimum 100 times each because something happens when you do that. And so I remember in the interview, the person was like, a hundred times What if you're speaking through the whole movie? He's like, do it anyways.

Speaker 2 (00:50:26):

Yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:50:27):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:50:28):

That's what they tell songwriters, write the first hundred songs quick, they're going to suck, and then you can get past that and move on.

Speaker 1 (00:50:35):

Yeah. But I mean, it's true. You got to get through the bad ones. Do you think the hundred song rule is true?

Speaker 2 (00:50:46):

Well, I dunno, that's a question. It's different for everyone. I think it is. I think it just depends. Talking about the Eagles, I had ask, Don said that the first song and him and Glen wrote together was Desperado. So I would say that the hundred song rule didn't apply to them, their co-writing,

Speaker 1 (00:51:06):

But how much stuff had they done before that on their own?

Speaker 2 (00:51:09):

Yeah. Yeah. I dunno. That's a good question.

Speaker 1 (00:51:12):

Here's a question from Scott Bennett. What are the biggest changes that you've seen in the industry since you started, and what do you think that you did to stay relevant and reinvent yourself during those changes?

Speaker 2 (00:51:23):

Oh man, that's a good question.

Speaker 1 (00:51:25):

That's actually a question I had for you that I was going to ask later. So Scott, you're on the right path.

Speaker 2 (00:51:31):

Yeah, man. The biggest changes obviously is the technological changes we've seen. And I know when I started, all I could think about because I was so hungry to learn and just so hungry to try things and experiment, and the only time I could do that was when I was in a room that was being paid for by someone else to do that. And so now to have access to what we have access to and to really a sense, rehearse or train your creativity is an amazing thing as far as staying relevant. I did continually try to reinvent yourself. I think that's important to do that. And I definitely went through periods. It became, at first, it was more time in between reinventing myself than it is as I got further in, especially with technology, I think things are moving much quicker. The thing that you have to do in this industry, I think is embrace change.

(00:52:36):

That's the most important thing. I had a lot of friends that throughout the years that did not embrace some of the changes that come along and especially the DAW stuff and things. And boy, you fall out quick when you don't embrace things and there's good and bad and everything. I mean, analog had good things, had bad things, the people that, there's the romantic side of it. But I also sit and before a tracking session, sweating, aligning the analog machine like five or six times to get it to play back. Record like you want it to, the playback come back as good as input or at least with the character that you wanted it to. And so I think we have a lot of challenges in any of it, but man, you got to embrace things and you got to continue to be inspired and feel inspired by things.

(00:53:30):

There were times, I mean, this is an industry that'll beat you up and you definitely get thick skin over the years from it. And I think it's how you process that and how you have to become that person to still feel energized and excited about what you do, but yet be able to take, if you want to call it criticism or take a no or take a, you know what, I don't like that. You have to find that processing that makes you do that in a way that keeps you excited and motivated. And that's the biggest thing. Staying excited about what you do. If you love what you do, just embrace everything around it and move it forward. If you're a glass half empty kind of person, then that's not going to work. You definitely, it's tough. Yeah, it's not going to work. But as long as you stay positive in everything, and if people around you are negative, find some new people to be around.

Speaker 1 (00:54:27):

Thank you for saying that,

Speaker 2 (00:54:28):

That are excited and enthusiastic because man, it is like a cancer. It'll just eat you up if you're around that negative energy all the time. So you just got to find those things where you can feel inspired and people around you are excited about it. Man, I can't tell you when I'm tracking with musicians and stuff, and they're all excited, not just about what we're doing, but just about music and life in general, man, it's a shot in the arm. It just takes me to another level going, yeah, man, this is great. We get to do this. And that's important.

Speaker 1 (00:55:00):

That saying that you're the product or you're the average of the five people you spend the most time with. I kind of think that's true to a degree.

Speaker 3 (00:55:09):

Yeah, it is.

Speaker 1 (00:55:10):

There's a lot of truth to that. And I can't tell you how many times my life has improved by changing out the people I was around. I mean, I like to think of myself as strong, but the thing is, you're not stronger than the world you live in. And if you're around really negative people, little by little, even if you're a very motivated person, very driven, talented, all that, if you get around people that are always negative, maybe it won't affect you at first, but if you spend years around them, it'll chip away at you little by little by little. And a few years out, you'll find that you're not the same person that you were. And so I think that anytime that I've ended up in a scenario kind of like that, I've immediately changed my circle of people and it's just like new lease on life. It's crazy. It really

Speaker 2 (00:56:08):

Works. Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (00:56:10):

So you've really focused, I think, on putting out the highest possible caliber of product throughout your career. And I think more so than stardom, as much as you can be a star, as an engineer, I think that what I know about your work is that it's just always the highest tier possible. Do you have a goal in mind with each project that you do? And what's your scale for success for achieving that goal?

Speaker 2 (00:56:43):

Oh, I would probably call it more of just, it's a bar and a work ethic that I have. And gosh, whether I'll do the demos. If I co-write something, I'll build up the demo on it. And I don't know any other way to do it than one way. I think that's just something that's ingrained in me. I've got a lot of patience and I get, the way I came up was with a lot of detail and doing something. And so I've got patience to sit and I can go down that rabbit hole if I want to or need to, and I can sit through it. But at the end of the day, it really is. There's one level of something that you feel comfortable about. There's a story, a producer one time told me and had another big producer as a mentor, and he said, I did my first big record for label and I took it to my mentor.

(00:57:43):

And I said, okay, here's the cd. And he said, but don't listen to tracks seven, nine, and 11. And the mentor said, well, why shouldn't I listen to him? He said, well, they just didn't turn out. I really wanted them to. I said, well, your name's on 'em, right? He said, well, yeah. So don't stop until you get it to where you feel comfortable at. I think there's that rule of going, okay, my name's on it, and you make it as good as you can get it. You still, most of the time, I never feel like I hit the mark, but you do everything you know to do and the best you could do to get it to the level you get it to. And then you go, okay, I don't know what else to do. That's it. And man, I think that's where you got to ahead.

Speaker 1 (00:58:32):

How do you balance that between really pushing for it to be the best it can possibly be versus just spinning your tires? You know what I mean? When people

Speaker 3 (00:58:43):

Just

Speaker 1 (00:58:44):

Start tweaking for the sake of tweaking and it doesn't,

Speaker 2 (00:58:47):

Yeah, I think you learn that line where you hit that place where, and I know that line, and usually late at night, if it's getting late, I'm going, okay, I can spend six hours and try to get to where I want to go, or I can spend 30 minutes in the morning and get there because I have a fresh mind. And I think sometimes it's a break from something. If you're just spending your wheels and you got the luxury of time time's. Actually the biggest luxury over money in a project to me is time to get away from it. If you get away from something for a week, it's amazing how you hear it. And sometimes it just, a light bulb will go off and you go, oh, why didn't I hear that two weeks ago? And that's a lot of it for me is if I got time to get away from it, you may think you've nailed it and two weeks later you happen to throw it up and listen to it and go, oh man, I definitely didn't hear that,

Speaker 1 (00:59:43):

Man. Perspective is everything, isn't it?

Speaker 2 (00:59:47):

It really is. Like I say, that's the most valuable thing in a project to me, is time to have that perspective.

Speaker 1 (00:59:54):

So you said you only know one way to do things, but you switch genres a lot. You go from country to rock to metal pop. So what do you mean that you only know one way to do things? And are you reaching for the same tools every time, or do you curate

Speaker 2 (01:00:12):

No. Yeah. The one way to reach things is only referencing the bar. Got it. Like getting to a place where I feel comfortable that, okay, that's good enough. At least we're on the field now and everything else is, I mean, music's emotion to me. And when you're feeling the emotion from out of country or if you're feeling it out of metal, it's a different emotion that you're feeling, but you're trying to bring across that experience and that emotion with the tools you have, eq, compression, whatever it is, and from the production. And they really, to me, genres are not that different from making a record in a sense, because it comes down to the experience and the emotion and what you're pulling across and getting that song across to the listener.

Speaker 1 (01:01:09):

So the genres just basically the vehicle that the song arrives in, but it still needs to arrive basically in top form to the whoever's going to consume it.

Speaker 2 (01:01:22):

Yeah. It's about making an effective record.

Speaker 1 (01:01:24):

So I guess on a technical level, do you reach for the same tools every time or do you curate your toolkit to fit the production needs of the project?

Speaker 2 (01:01:34):

Man, I've never been a rubber stamp guy, so I like the creative process. That's one of the things I enjoy about what I do is getting to be creative. So I like to, there's some things you reach for that you go, okay, I know that works and that does this, but in general, I like to build it out and sometimes experiment and look for those things or something new, a new way to get there. To me, that's what I enjoy about it. It's just not, I know some people pull up a template and plug it in and go, okay, there it is after an hour or something, but I'm not that guy. I just can't go there because I can't do the factory. I've gotten to some periods of my career where you do a single and it's like, okay, you do these three things to make that single, don't step out the side, the lines stay in the lane and that can get your creativity. Definitely gets muted to some degree in that. And so I think the creative process, if it's mixing, I like to build it up. I think that's just the fun of it. It's like why I'm in it, why I do this?

Speaker 1 (01:02:48):

And I mean also the fact that you have explored the factory style, you tried it, you don't like it.

Speaker 2 (01:02:57):

Yeah, no, I felt like my creativity definitely, it wouldn't as fun. No, it gets old. And I think you see that in all parts of the industry, whether you're a musician, if you're a studio musician, a lot of times if you do session after session in the same genre, it can be routine and maybe some of the same licks and a lot of the chord changes are the same, and it becomes a bit of a factory. And I think as a musician, you want to get out and that's why you see a lot of people want to get on the road and play some too, or do projects that are just experiment more in things and do different things. I think you got to keep that creativity flowing. Otherwise in a way you stop growing.

Speaker 1 (01:03:44):

I find that if I do the same thing, and this is across the board in life, this is true. When I was a guitar player, it was true with set lists, it was true with production, it's true in business. It's just true that if I get too, I guess too wrapped up doing the same thing over and over and over again. It's like there's a part of my brain that goes to sleep and it almost feels like there's a blanket on it, and I don't know how to describe it, but that light bulb, that light bulb, that all the great ideas come from just doesn't really turn on. However, there is a flip side, which is that I think that good habits, a good daily routine is really, really important.

(01:04:35):

So there are certain things where I do think it's important to standardize, but that's more with waking up and getting exercise and drinking enough water and things like that. But that aside, I find that if I don't introduce something new every so often, if I don't take in a new idea or try something brand new or whatever, if I don't do it, usually within a week or 10 days, if I don't do something extremely mind expanding and I don't mean drugs, then I kind of start to stagnate and I start to lose interest in what I'm doing and I start phoning things in. So I have to be always developing myself or everything suffers.

Speaker 2 (01:05:31):

Yeah, I think the routine stuff you're talking about is discipline.

Speaker 1 (01:05:34):

Yes.

Speaker 2 (01:05:34):

And I think discipline's good. Definitely. I think staying healthy and exercise makes you even more creative. The energy you get from just that lifestyle. And I've talked to, I mean, it's a regular part of my life anyway, and I've got friends in the industry that I've got them on the path to that, and it's like, well, I don't know if I got time. Well, you know what? You're going to get more work done in a shorter amount of time because you're going to be more alert, more energized, and feel more creative. And so far it's, it's been proven with the folks I've talked to.

Speaker 1 (01:06:13):

Well, I made a huge change in my life where I completely changed my lifestyle a few months ago to eating healthy and exercising, all that stuff. And the change has been not subtle. Not subtle at all. It's incredible. And the thing is, also I sleep a lot more, which is good. I used to have pretty bad insomnia, but I sleep more, and I do spend quite a few hours per week on exercise, almost like a part-time job, but I get a ton more done when I'm working for my company and not just that it's better work and I'm way better at handling the hard stuff mentally.

Speaker 2 (01:07:02):

Yeah,

Speaker 1 (01:07:03):

There's nothing bad at all that comes out of it.

Speaker 2 (01:07:06):

No, it is really good. And I think it helps you. Yeah. It keeps your head in a good spot where it helps you sustain a career and do more stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:07:20):

So how often do you exercise?

Speaker 2 (01:07:22):

I do. I go six days a week.

Speaker 1 (01:07:25):

Nice. This is actually very interesting to our community. We have a lot of health-minded people who listen to this podcast, and daily routines are something that come up a lot, especially in our private Facebook group, because we all know that this can become cave life. If you're not careful about it. You can end up sitting down 12 hours a day eating garbage, and just that over a period of a few years can wreak havoc on your life. So it's always cool to hear from producers and engineers who have gotten that part figured out. So if you don't mind, I'd like to talk to you about that for a few minutes.

Speaker 2 (01:08:11):

Yeah, no, absolutely. And me and Nathan Chapman, we good buddies, and he's into the routine too, and we really both have talked a lot about this and how to get this message out to the community to try to just encourage people to have a little more healthier lifestyle, that it does increase your creativity and stuff. So yeah, I'd love to talk about it.

Speaker 1 (01:08:37):

So you work out six days a week?

Speaker 2 (01:08:39):

Yeah, so my biggest thing was creating a habit, a consistent habit for me, and I tell people this all the time, and I think it's a little funny, but when I first, I've been a rollercoaster all my life up and down, trying to get into it, fall out of it, get into it, fall out of it. So now I've been consistent for seven years or so now.

Speaker 1 (01:09:04):

Nice. I'd say that's consistent.

Speaker 2 (01:09:07):

So when I first got into it though, it was like, okay, I've got to create a habit. I got to find a time that won't be interrupted. And so for me, that was going, okay, I'm going to commit to getting up early. How early? 5 30, 6 o'clock.

Speaker 1 (01:09:19):

Fuck yeah. That's the magic time, man.

Speaker 2 (01:09:22):

That is, I set my alarm. I got up for a week just at that time, I went to the YMCA, so I would go to the parking lot, drive to the parking lot, sit in the parking lot, make myself sit there for five or 10 minutes, and then I'd go home. It's like I didn't even want to go in. I'm going, okay, I'm going to get used to getting up. That's it. Then I started going in, walking the track, started adding to the routine and built a routine that I like to do. But for me it was forming a habit and putting that time in a place where emails, phone calls, nothing interrupted me and built on that. And so now I do. I've got a routine I love doing, and I do it. I'll go to the gym from, I mean, it's built up to a little more now where I'm an hour and a half or so each day, but I love going and I get up and I do it, and I feel so much better afterwards. And it just energizes me for the day. I eat a fairly healthy lifestyle. I practice a vegan, gluten-free lifestyle from an eating perspective, which sounds pretty limited, but

Speaker 1 (01:10:35):

It's not. These days,

Speaker 2 (01:10:37):

After a few weeks, I figured out everything and it's not, and I feel so much better with that clean of a diet now if I want something every now and then, yeah, why not have a meal of whatever you want? But in general, I keep it pretty clean. I'll make smoothies usually for breakfast, maybe oatmeal, but I'll always have a smoothie, a couple of smoothies a day with about 35 grams of protein, something like that. And I use collagen peptide protein. I think that's really good for your gut. And it's not vegan, but I think it's really good for your gut and your joints. So I use that and you have to trigger it with some BCAAs branch chain of amino acids too. Helps it digest better. Yeah. So I mean, in general, that's kind of what I follow. I've gone in and out of following my macros closely to just knowing what stays in that range. And by that I mean proteins, fats and carbs balance in that. But yeah, so I've gotten kind of all into it and enjoy it, and it's part of my routine.

Speaker 1 (01:11:55):

So when you would fall out of it back in the past, were you quite as detailed as you are now about everything? Or is part of what makes it work for you that you're all in, like you just said?

Speaker 2 (01:12:10):

Yeah, I mean, I don't think I, I got into some detail, but not as much as I am now. I mean, I've really looked into a lot of things and looked into just naturopath stuff, homeopathic things, and just looking at what foods do what for your body, what foods heal things, and if something's going on, then I'll eat foods that address those issues. And the diet I follow too is also pretty low inflammation type of diet, which is really good. I think everybody should pay attention to inflammation because boy, that's definitely a biggie and causing a lot of issues in everybody. So I stay pretty close to that.

Speaker 1 (01:12:58):

What you said about habit forming I think is very key. I know that when I did it, it also started with waking up super early, which is really hard for me. But that was the first thing I did too, was just wake up at around five 30 between 5, 5 30 and just get that under my belt. Because creating a new habit takes a lot of mental energy. And

(01:13:23):

So I would put all my mental energy into just one thing. And then once it's a habit, you no longer have to expend that kind of energy on it and you can move on to the next thing. That's why I think that people fail when they try to add multiple new habits all at once. They just don't have the energy to do all that change all at once. So you grab one thing you can do and make it a habit, and then within three weeks or six weeks or something, they say 66 days. But I find that it's a little bit less than that if you're really dedicated, but you'll stop thinking about it. It'll just happen, and then you'll have that mental energy to add the next thing. So I wasn't into exercise, so I did something. I was like, what exercise will I do? I need to figure out something I'll actually do. And so I just got this under desk bike and I was like, I'll watch movies and do this that I can do, and I did that. So suddenly I was doing this for two hours a day. After a few weeks of that, it just started to feel like not enough. So from there, the gym membership happened and on and on and so forth, but

(01:14:49):

That's exactly how it worked for me too.

Speaker 2 (01:14:51):

Yeah, that's the deal. They say in the beginning, just move. Just do something to move. And that's it. So much of it comes from the diet side. If you're looking to lose weight or do something like that, I mean, it really is just kind of balancing bottom line. It turns into calories and calories out. There's definitely other intricacies to it, but yeah, you just got to start a habit and start moving and you will start to feel better. It is not easy in the beginning, but you just got to find those little things that motivate you and be consistent, and then you'll miss it when you don't do it.

Speaker 1 (01:15:33):

Absolutely. And you'll really start to, when you start to notice that your work is getting easier, that's when you'll be that much more motivated to keep going. I think if you stick it out long enough to where the rest of your life is starting to improve, that's the best motivator. What about sleep? I know that engineers are notoriously bad at it, and I have been for years and got it solved recently, but what's your sleep?

Speaker 2 (01:16:05):

It is pretty good. I mean, when you get up early and work out, by the end of the day, you're ready to sleep. That's the good thing about exercise is it'll let your body sleep at night because it wants to. And the other side is clearing your mind and just being able to relax at night. I always, I'll stop work an hour before I think I'm going head to bed, because if I'm sitting in front of the screen working on something, I can't go right to bed. I have to have that hour to just let my brain and everything just sort of calmed down and come down and make some notes what I'm thinking about. So I won't forget stuff because that's what I go, man, if I don't write this down, I'll forget it in the morning. So I make some notes and just basically clear my plate, and by that time I'm ready to go to bed and my body is ready to sleep because it's had its day.

Speaker 1 (01:17:05):

Awesome. Well, Jeff Balding, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It's been enlightening and awesome to talk to you,

Speaker 2 (01:17:13):

Man. My pleasure.

Speaker 1 (01:17:14):

Enjoy it. You've been listening to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast. To ask us questions, make suggestions and interact, visit URM Academy and press the podcast.