DAVE SCHIFFMAN: Working with Rick Rubin, Surviving as a Freelancer, and Translating a Band’s Vision

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast, and now your host, Eyal Levi. I want to take a second and tell you about something that I am very excited about and it's the URM Summit. Once a year, we hold an event where hundreds of producers from all over the world come together for four days of networking, workshops, seminars, and hanging out. This industry is all about relationships, and think about it, what could you gain from getting to personally know your peers from all over the world who have the same goals as you, the same struggles as you, and who can help, inspire you, motivate you, as well as become potential professional collaborators? This year's Summit is on November 9th through 11th at the Las Vegas Weston, which is just one block off of the strip, and it's going to be even bigger and better than ever. We're anticipating even more producers, plus a lineup of amazing guests like Jenz Borin, Kris Crummett Machine, Forrester, ve Michael Legian, DaVero, Billy Decker, Chris Adler, Mary Zimmer, Mike Mowry, Jesse Cannon Blasco, Jason Berg, Jessica Lohan and Moore, and of course, our musical guest, the one and only Arc expire.

(00:01:18):

So get your summit tickets [email protected] and we will see you in Vegas today on the URM podcast. My guest is Mr. Dave Schiffman, who's a producer and two time Grammy Award-winning engineer and mixer out of la. You can hear Schiffman's work on music of All Stripes. From Jazz to Grind Core. He's worked with legendary artists such as Audio Slave, Tom Petty, vampire Weekend, LA Dispute, Adele, Jimmy at World, and many, many, many, many more. I'm not going to spend the next hour going down the list, so look it up. Anyways, Dave, how are you doing? Thanks for being here.

Speaker 2 (00:01:57):

I'm doing good, thank you. Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1 (00:02:00):

Pleasure to have you. I have a question for you, something interesting that I noticed in my prep, which is something that I think we could all relate to. It says here that you could be working with some huge act one month, but then if there's a cancellation, you could go an entire month without work. And I wanted to talk about that a little bit because I think that up and comers think that that type of thing ends once you become successful. I just don't think that's true.

Speaker 2 (00:02:35):

No, I wish. Unfortunately, you're kind of the, if you are engineering, you're at the will of the producer and band and the record company. If they decide know what, we're not ready to go into the studio right now, we're going to hold off. You don't really have any recourse there. I know that there are some record companies, some management companies, whatever will make a deal, will get somebody paid for a partial payment for canceled work, but you can't really count on it.

Speaker 1 (00:03:12):

That's sometimes, and that's if they're cool.

Speaker 2 (00:03:15):

Yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:03:16):

I've definitely had that go both ways. The worst one, and this was my stupidity, so feel free to tell me I'm stupid, but I started working on a project and I knew the label involved personally and this band was getting signed to them and I guess they didn't tell me that the deal wasn't finished for when the studio was booked.

Speaker 3 (00:03:47):

Oh, wow.

Speaker 1 (00:03:48):

Yeah, so I had confirmed the studio time with the band label said, go for it. Figured if the label's saying Go for it, it's go for it. So week one goes by and I should have gotten some sort of down payment or first half or something a while ago, but I figure I know these people, they're my friends, I'm sure it'll come week two. It's like, what is going on? There's no money. I'm buying the band food and what is this? Turns out they didn't even sign the

Speaker 4 (00:04:23):

Deal

Speaker 1 (00:04:25):

And then the deal fell through. So on week three and then the band disintegrated. So yeah, all these weeks of unpaid work, it was my stupidity for not doing enough due diligence. But I feel like sometimes there's some scenarios where you just think shit's going to be okay.

Speaker 2 (00:04:48):

Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (00:04:49):

Because known people for a long time

Speaker 2 (00:04:52):

And I think everybody has the best intentions, but communication is critical and I have to credit my managers past and present for really staying on top of that because that's something that I think had, if I had to be responsible for that, I'm sure I would've gone down the same route you did because you don't want to come off to the band as being financially driven. I dunno if that's the right term, I guess.

Speaker 1 (00:05:26):

Yeah, it may just makes it awkward,

Speaker 2 (00:05:29):

And I try and make it a rule not to really discuss business with the band in the studio. That just always feels like bad juju to me. It can make for uncomfortable conversations and for people going, well, wait, I didn't know that's what they were paying you, or things like that, and I really don't want to bring that into the studio if I can help it. So it's important to have it all worked out before you walk in the door and to be upfront and to be as like, okay, you know what? I'm not going to confirm studio time until I've got something signed from you guys or PO that says we are good to go. And I totally don't blame you for doing what you did because had I not been under a good manager and somebody who taught me all this, I wouldn't have known any different and I probably would've done the same exact thing.

Speaker 1 (00:06:32):

I shouldn't have known better. I already knew this by this point in time. It was like the one time that I let it slide because I knew everyone involved personally. And of course those are the times that it gets you

Speaker 2 (00:06:48):

Always, always, you're right. It's like when you're not on top of stuff, that's when it happens. That's when it falls through the cracks. To this day, I still run into that, hopefully not on a large scale, but there'll always be something where I'm like, oh, damn it, we should have talked about that. Or, oh, wait a second. Am I on the hook for that? I shouldn't be on the hook for that. And that's definitely bad on my part for not being prepared and having it all figured out.

Speaker 1 (00:07:23):

It's one of these things too where, I mean, you can only plan for what you can plan for, and there's a certain element of just us not being psychic that comes into play though I do think in this situation I was talking about, it was my fault. I messed that one up. But there are things that you just can't really totally plan for. I mean, you can't get every single detail.

Speaker 2 (00:07:50):

No, you're absolutely right. But I guess part of doing what we do is, or I've found anyway, is being able to anticipate, and it's something that drives my wife nuts actually, because I'm the guy who she'll say, well, let's go here. And I'll say, well, if we go there, aren't we going to hit a lot of traffic? Or that's how my brain works where I'm always trying to think two or three steps ahead instead of, okay, we're just going to do this and let's chips fall where they may. And I feel like because of what it is I do for a living, my career has really shaped that part of my brain and it's a blessing and a curse. I'm sure she'll tell you because it's just like I just become the bummer because I'm like, oh, well we can't do that because, and she'll be like, oh yeah, great. Okay, thanks. So it's sword, I guess.

Speaker 1 (00:08:56):

Well, what did you do before you had management? How did you navigate these waters?

Speaker 2 (00:09:02):

Well, that was part of me seeking out management was I was working with a producer pretty much, and the work was good. There wasn't an issue with money or anything like that, but every once in a while there would be a booking for say a month or even a week or something. And then literally the day of the day we were supposed to start, it would get canceled or it would get postponed, ouch. And I'd be sitting there like, holy shit, what am I going to do now? I was counting on this money coming in, this is how I was going to pay my rent. This is how I was going to pay my taxes or whatever, and then it's not there or it's going to be there, but nobody's told me when, so I was in no position to ask for half of the payment upfront or any sort of a cancel fee or anything like that because I just didn't know any better.

(00:10:08):

I just thought, well, that's how the cookie crumbles. That's what you get. And that was when I thought, I see all these other people I know who work with managers. Maybe it's time I talk to somebody. And I did, and that started a relationship with a manager who I was with for 21 years and it was great, and he really taught me a lot and had my back on a lot of that stuff and made sure I was just a little more comfortable. I could breathe a little easier to say, just be a little more sure of what was coming down the line.

Speaker 1 (00:10:50):

I think a lot of people have a misconception about what a manager does, whereas a lot of people think that a manager's job is to get you the work, and I think that maybe that happens sometimes, but I really think their job is to make sure that everything is legit and on the up and up with the work that you're getting and that nobody is. You're in the best possible scenario with the jobs and maybe sometimes they'll get work, but I don't think that that's their number one job.

Speaker 2 (00:11:27):

You're absolutely right. I think maybe 10 years ago, 15 years ago, there was a little more of a and r. People would send demos to managers, and managers would send it to the client, they felt appropriate or the couple of clients they felt appropriate and he'd report back to the a and r guy, well, so-and-so's interested, so-and-so's interested, but since the a and r structure at most big labels and probably a lot of the smaller ones has changed, that isn't really how it goes anymore. I think there still is some of that, but there's a lot less of it and I think right now the manager's job is to make sure, like you said, that it's all above board and that you're being treated fairly and that you're going to walk away satisfied with the deal and obviously he's going to profit from that as well or he or she I should say. So it's supposed to be a win-win kind of thing. I guess

Speaker 1 (00:12:26):

At what point do you think is a good idea as a producer to seek out representation?

Speaker 2 (00:12:34):

I think when your representation has something to sell you on, fair enough. If you haven't really accomplished a significant credit, something that has gotten the attention of either the press or the public or the inner circle of people who make records, then I think it's really hard for management to go out and help you negotiate a deal or help put you in a situation where you can find work. Absolutely. Because if they're recommending you to somebody recommending you to a label or a manager or what have you, their first question is going to be, well, who's that? I've never heard of 'em.

Speaker 1 (00:13:19):

Oh, it's just some guy. I know. It's funny, there's some misconceptions about lots of these roles in the music industry. It is about publicists too as well as what a label will and won't do, but I think the common bond here is that these people need something to work with. They're not, can't create something out of nothing, and they're not magicians. They do their job based off of what you give them and do their job with.

Speaker 2 (00:13:53):

And that goes for record companies also. Yeah, totally. I've worked with a lot of first timer bands who are making their first record, and sometimes we have these conversations where the band feels like, okay, well all their dreams have come true, their success. And the first thing I say emotionally is like, you don't understand. I was like, this is the easy part. Making the record is the easy fun part. I was like, after this is when the work starts, now you have to go out and sell yourself, not just nine to 5 24 7, you are on the clock, you are selling your band, and that may sound

Speaker 1 (00:14:36):

Like you're running for office.

Speaker 2 (00:14:38):

Exactly. And that may sound really kind of harsh and corporate, but it's like if you want this to be what you do for a living, then it is a tough gig. Nobody walks up and hands you the keys to the kingdom. You have to go steal them, and you have to go out there and do what you need to do. You got to get into a van and go play clubs. You got to go play in front of eight people first time hoping that next time there'll be 16 people. It is a tough road and for bands who don't understand that and don't get that, it's going to be a rude awakening or it's just not going to happen.

Speaker 1 (00:15:24):

Speaking of tough roads as a producer, you definitely work your way up over quite a long period of time, but from what you said yourself was the gopher position, and I've noticed that, and this bugs me whenever I see this, I see some people who say they want to do this, say they're not willing to put up with the, they want the gigs with these big producers, but they don't want to go through that gopher period. I'm wondering, what did you learn through that gopher period and how did it help you get to the next step?

Speaker 2 (00:16:04):

I think it's a great lesson in humility and also just understanding that there really is a lot you don't know and you learn it from observation and from watching how other people do it, and the hierarchy has changed a lot. Back when I was starting out, the way you got in was you started out as a runner and you would help when the assistant got an engineering gig, you would be his assistant, so he would kind of show you the ropes. This is how you set up, this is how you break down, this is how you wrap a mic cord. This is how you plug in a mic and they taught you everything and this is how our studio does this. This is how our studio does that. And that was how you learned it. And now that the studio world has shrunk dramatically, I think people who are trying to break in, there's a bunch of different routes to go in, but it's a lot less, I mean, not that there was any security to begin with, but now it's like I don't even know how I would suggest somebody work their way in.

(00:17:25):

There are still studios where you can get a job, but very few and most people are booking time at studios, myself included for a record, you will book a room for four to five days, you get the drums and then you move out and you go someplace else.

Speaker 1 (00:17:43):

I mean, even though it's changed to where there aren't as many big studios, that doesn't mean there's no producers. I mean, you need an assistant or assistance, right?

Speaker 2 (00:17:53):

Yes, yes and no. I mean it's imperative. If I'm at somebody else's studio, yes, I need somebody who can interface with the room and who can get stuff set up and get me to where I need to be to start working. If I'm in my own room, no, I don't need anybody else. And it's set up that way on purpose because these days what I need to do is I need to do everything I can to keep my costs down. And most producers will tell you the same thing. It's like because we live in the world of the all in deal, it's like I'm going to pay you X amount of dollars to do this work, and it's at 20% of what it was maybe 10 years ago. So you've got to figure out how to make that make sense for

Speaker 1 (00:18:45):

You. And so you loan wolf, you loan wolf it basically once you're back at your place.

Speaker 2 (00:18:50):

Yeah, once I'm back at my place, there's really no reason to have somebody there. I'm fairly self-sufficient. I set up, I put together my whole setup so I know where everything is, and so it doesn't make sense for me to have somebody there. It'd be great to have somebody there. Once the mix was done, I could say, okay, run off the mixes and I'll see you later. That would be great. And I know guys who do that, but I just haven't really found the reason to have somebody to come in and do that. Not that there aren't qualified people and not that there's plenty of people who have hit me up about it, but I just can't rationalize it. And I would feel bad honestly, to have somebody sitting there on my couch waiting for me to ask them to do something because it may be a couple of days before I need somebody to help me.

Speaker 1 (00:19:44):

Sounds like you've got it figured out.

Speaker 2 (00:19:47):

I think for how I make records and for what I do, I feel like I do. I've got my system down that in a way that it works.

Speaker 1 (00:19:58):

Sounds like you've got your workflow dialed to where it is machine-like in its efficiency. I don't think there's a way to pull off what you're describing without having just a machine-like workflow.

Speaker 2 (00:20:13):

Well, I think it's the workflow needed to be in such a way that I could work on multiple things at the same time, and this is all just a matter of survival. Around 2008, I think it was when the proverbial shit hit the fan and all the big labels slaughtered their rosters, they dropped tons of bands, tons of artists, and that was kind of the tipping point that was like, okay, well that first record budget of $175,000, well now it's $20,000. And you know what? We want the record to sound exactly the same. And so that sounds brutal. How do you do that? Yeah, how do you make that work and still manage to put food on the table doing what you love? That was the thing. It's like there really isn't anything else I'm qualified to do and there really isn't anything else that I want to do. So out of that desperation, I had to figure out how am I going to keep doing this and being able to provide for my family and

Speaker 1 (00:21:27):

Myself. What's interesting here is that, so people whose careers came about after 2008, $20,000 is a pretty good budget to them. They didn't know any different before the guys from before. Then it's like having to learn how to work under brand new parameters where your resources for a project are just slashed. Slashed. So you've solved the problem through efficiency and workflow, it sounds like.

Speaker 2 (00:22:02):

Yeah, and I think that's what it's about. And also it's about artists understanding that and management and record companies and being like, okay, well you know what? I know that you need to jump onto this other project for a couple of days. So you do that and then you come back to us and do this and it's like juggling and everybody has to be on board and look, not every record I do is $20,000 budget. I've definitely still worked on records that have significant budgets and those are awesome and it's great to be a part of them and it's usually amazing artists and it's usually working at a real nice studio and all that, and there's, that still does exist, but I'd say for the most part, if you work in the independent world and the DIY world, that doesn't exist. So you have to figure out how to make that work for how you want to live your lifestyle.

Speaker 1 (00:23:12):

So can we talk a little bit about the nitty gritty of your workflow? You say you have to bounce between projects a lot. Are you a hundred percent in the box with mixes or do you have a system for quick recalls with analog? How do you do it?

Speaker 2 (00:23:29):

Well, I, I'd say I'm a hybrid in the box and analog. What I do is I mix through the Shadow Hills Equinox, which is a breakout box of 32 channels. So it's I guess 24 or 12 stereo channels, 24 tracks and then eight mono tracks that come down to a stereo blend. From there, I go into a fully analog chain that goes into a burl, A to D converter back into pro tools, and that's how I print my mix. So the only thing that I have to document is my analog stereo bus chain, which is something that I'm always trying to tune up and looking for different ways to the best to get it to sound as much like a console as I can to the point where I think it sounds right or it sounds to me, it doesn't sound like it's in the box to where it sounds like it is a more natural desky sounding mix.

Speaker 1 (00:24:48):

Now, a lot of the guys I know who are former all analog guys who are now working hybrid who are in a situation like you where they have to be able to jump around a lot. What they do or what they've told me that they do is that the analog gear side of things, those settings never change. And so they have different pieces for different purposes, and all they tweak is the input level and that is set for its purpose and that's that,

Speaker 3 (00:25:30):

And

Speaker 1 (00:25:31):

They don't mess with that. Do you kind of go about it that way?

Speaker 2 (00:25:36):

I wish I did, but I don't.

Speaker 1 (00:25:38):

Didn't sound like you did. That's what I was wondering.

Speaker 2 (00:25:41):

I really don't, and I want to say I totally get it, that there are guys out there that do that and they have the extensive amount of gear that they can do that if you have five.

Speaker 1 (00:25:56):

Yeah, that's exactly right. They'll have

Speaker 2 (00:25:57):

5, 11 70 sixes or four LA two ways. If you have that and you can do that more power to you, that's great. But I don't have some really nice gear. I don't have a ton of it, but I have enough to where, okay, I want to run this vocal through my 2254. So I'll do that. I'll find something that I like in terms of how it reacts with the track and how it sounds with the vocal, and then I print it and there's my vocal sound with the 2254 in the computer. Now if I decide somewhere along the way, you know what? That's not really working for me anymore. Well, you know what, then I'll try it through my 1176 or I'll go back through the 2254 and I'll change my threshold or my compression or something like that, and then I'll print it again and I'll put it on a playlist and I'll say, okay, this was 2254, number two, okay, this one sits better. And I'll do that with all the outboard gear I use. And that way when I do recall it, well all that outboard gear stuff is printed so I don't have to go back and recall it. And if I want that 2254 on six tracks or 20 tracks, I can do that and I can change the setting for however I want it to sound or do, and I print it and it's there.

Speaker 1 (00:27:33):

I mean, do you have a notebook full of all these recalls?

Speaker 2 (00:27:36):

Well, for the recalls for my stereo bus, yes. I have a template for the eq, the stereo bus EQ that I like, and I have a document, my compressor settings, and I just recently bought a piece from a company called Tree Audio, and it's called a trunk, T-R-U-N-K. It's cute. Yeah, it's funny. And essentially all it is, it's a full monitoring system, but what I'm using it for right now is just the stereo bus because it's this tube stereo bus that's kind of at the end of my chain right now, or not at the total end of my chain, but I guess right after my eq. Yeah, so I guess it's the end of the chain right now. And that's kind of the last thing. My mix is hitting and you can sit there and you have a variable output on it, and you can just kind of find the sweet spot you're running through a console, and I've just found that it translates fantastically. It just sounds, it just really makes this difference that it's hard to articulate

Speaker 1 (00:28:56):

What it is. I'm looking it up right now.

Speaker 2 (00:28:58):

Oh, okay. It's hard to articulate what it does, but it just sounds better.

Speaker 1 (00:29:06):

Just something good.

Speaker 2 (00:29:07):

I apologize that I don't have a technical spec to explain it, but it's something where the vocal just becomes a little more focused, the depth becomes a little bit deeper, the reverb becomes a little more three dimensional, just things like that. It just kind of opens up the mix and it just feels more like an analog print, how I remember, half inch or quarter inch. And that's kind of been my ultimate goal for my mix chain is to get it to where I remember going through a console sounds like, and to get that feel, but be able to flip between three different records in the same afternoon.

Speaker 1 (00:30:00):

I'm looking at their stuff right now. These are some big boy toys for sure.

Speaker 2 (00:30:04):

Yes, they are. And they're built fantastic. I mean, the thing's built like a tank, it weighs as much as a tree. I mean it's huge, but it really, really sounds good. Paired up with the Equinox especially.

Speaker 1 (00:30:19):

I'm looking at the trunk stereo and bus monitoring section, and I see a few things. So you said you have the trunk?

Speaker 2 (00:30:30):

Yes.

Speaker 1 (00:30:31):

Okay. God, that thing does look huge.

Speaker 2 (00:30:33):

Yeah, it's just a

Speaker 1 (00:30:36):

Military grade,

Speaker 2 (00:30:37):

Muscular, very muscular with all the military grade helicopter switches on it. It's pretty cool looking

Speaker 1 (00:30:46):

Nice. So question about how you came up. Yeah. You came up through the, I guess the old system of becoming the gopher then assistant and working under people, but you didn't just work under a producer. I mean you worked with Rick Rubin, right? Is it like, I mean I'm sure you get asked this all the time, but I'm just wondering what's it like having to keep up with a genius? Basically,

Speaker 2 (00:31:23):

You kind of always had to be ready for anything. It would be a ride one day we're recording a Ali Band from Pakistan, and the next day we're in the system of A down. It was just all over the place and just kind of having to pick up and recalibrate and decide, okay, well, we're recording all acoustic instruments right now, or we're recording a ear splitting kind of metal overture. And it was just kind of being ready for whatever he threw at me, and it was great. It was priceless, baptism by fire, but it was amazing.

Speaker 1 (00:32:19):

How did that come about? How did it come about that he was cool to work with you?

Speaker 2 (00:32:25):

Well, it started, I was an assistant at Ocean Way Studios, which is no more. It was Allen Side's studio in Hollywood, and I was a staff there. I'd been working there I guess about a year. I'd moved out from New York and I was assigned to work with Rick and then engineer Richard dod to do vocals with the Red Hot Chili Peppers.

Speaker 1 (00:32:59):

So you were just assigned?

Speaker 2 (00:33:00):

Yeah, I was assigned. I made it known to the studio manager. I saw it in the book. I was like, Hey, I'd love to work on that. And she said, well, okay, let me see what happens. I didn't really have any seniority at that point. I had only been there for about a year, and there were other guys who had been there, I mean 10 years, 12 years, which is crazy. But I ended up on it

Speaker 1 (00:33:30):

10 years as assistance.

Speaker 2 (00:33:31):

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. I don't get it, but I got assigned to the record, which was great. Got in there with Richard and Rick and Anthony came and we did some vocals, and then Anthony had some other stuff going on, so he wasn't coming in, but we still had the room. So instead of canceling the room, Rick just threw some other stuff at Richard for him to do, mix these Jay Hawks songs, let's remix this Tom Petty track, let's do that. So it was just me and Richard in there, and Richard just remixing all this stuff, most of it on the monitor side of the console, which was incredible.

(00:34:22):

He's just such a purist and was just such a great sense of balance and just really a master of that. And this was going on for I guess a week or something. And then I think Richard's from Nashville. He had been in LA for a couple of weeks at least, and I think he was ready to go home. I think he missed his family. He was just kind of, I guess a little burnt out. So he turns to me one day and he said, well, you know what? I'm heading home next week. Do you want to take over? And I said, seriously, just like that. Yeah. I said, seriously, really? And he's like, yeah. He's like You, you're up to it. You can do it. I was like, yes. I was like, I'm down. Sign me up. And he is like, okay, well I'll talk to Rick's assistant and I guess they'll let you know.

(00:35:15):

And I said, great. So in the meantime, Richard left and they didn't cancel the time for the room. Rick was down the hall. I think Rick might've had two or three rooms going at that time. I was in Studio three with Richard and the Chili Peppers. He was also in Studio two with Danzig, and then around the corner in another room, there was something else going on and I can't remember what it was, but I think he had three rooms going at the same time over at Ocean Way. So very prolific at that point, but there wasn't really anything to do in Studio Three, except I knew that there was a Jay Hawks track that needed to be mixed. So I put it up and I just started to mix it on my own, worked on it for a day. Printed a cassette. That's right, a cassette mix.

(00:36:12):

And saw Rick walking down the hall heading to two one day, and I walked out and I was like, Hey, Rick. I said, I just mixed, I think it was tomorrow, the Greengrass was the name of the song. I was like, I just did a mix of this. I know you guys need it. I was like, here, check it out and if you like it, it'd be great if you used it. And he takes the cassette, he's like, alright, come on back with me. Come back to Studio two. So we go back to studio two and we pop the cassette in and he listens and looks at me. He is like, great. He's like, this is cool. Thanks. Thanks for doing that.

Speaker 1 (00:36:49):

Then

Speaker 2 (00:36:49):

I hear nothing

Speaker 1 (00:36:50):

Was your mind blown.

Speaker 2 (00:36:51):

I was like, wow, that's pretty cool. It was that easy. It was that easy. But it was just, I guess having the nerve to actually do that and feeling like I was able to back it up at the time, because I think that's what it's about. If you are going to do something like that, you have to be able to back it up and really stand behind the

Speaker 1 (00:37:13):

Work. That's actually where I think most people would fall short, is not taking that chance. When it came up, first of all, requesting the Reuben session, I think a lot of people would say, nah, I'm not ready for that, or someone else will just get it, so I'm not even going to try. So I think that's the first place where people would fail on the quest. And then the second place would've been, say whoever it is who made it in did a good job. I would assume that no bad engineers would make it to the Ruben session. So that's assumed. But then when the engineer told you he was leaving, do you want to take over? I think there is a group of people who would've been like, nah, out of fear. Out of fear that they'd mess it up.

Speaker 4 (00:38:11):

Sure.

Speaker 1 (00:38:11):

So then the third level is actually having the balls to grab that track that nobody assigned to you, and then the fourth is to actually show it to 'em. So that's four levels right there of where I think a lot of people would just fall off because they're too scared to go forward.

Speaker 2 (00:38:37):

It definitely was a pretty big meatball, and I don't know what possessed me to kind of go forward at that point. I think I had decided maybe right when I started at Oceanway that I was going to just give this a couple of years and if nothing flushed out, then I was going to move on and look for another career or another avenue. So this is a Hail Mary. I guess it was kind of my Hail Mary where I was like, you know what? I've nothing to lose here. It's like if he likes it, great. If he doesn't like it, well that's okay too. I mean, I'm not going to lose my job here. I may be stuck here a little longer than I want to be, but I'm not really going anywhere. So that's how I rationalized it, and that's how I saw it as, for lack of a better word, safe. Everybody has their own degree of what's safe. And I guess some people may have thought, wow, that's crazy. But it didn't feel that crazy to me at the time. It felt like this is what needed to happen. It just seemed kind of crystal clear that that was the right way to go.

Speaker 1 (00:39:51):

I mean, it's a big swing, but without taking the swing, you don't hit the grand slam. I mean, there is the possibility of striking out, but I mean if you don't take the at bat, you're ceiling your own

Speaker 2 (00:40:05):

Fate. Exactly. It's like you got to get up to the plate first. And I was lucky that he was receptive about it, and I guess he saw something in that that he's like, well, that's somebody who I want in my camp, but it didn't actually come to fruition. Then he thanked me for it. He said, great. He's like, I'll see you soon. And then the next week we started up again and it was with another engineer doing vocals with Anthony. They didn't hire me. And I was kind of like, okay, well you know what? I tried and he didn't laugh at me and I feel like I had made some sort of progress, but then they brought in this other guy to do vocals with Anthony.

Speaker 1 (00:40:53):

Name your accomplishments number one. Didn't get laughed at by Rick Rubin.

Speaker 2 (00:40:58):

Exactly.

Speaker 1 (00:40:59):

I mean, it's still pretty cool.

Speaker 2 (00:41:02):

So this other guy starts and he, well, we'll just say he was quite proud of himself and really thought he had got it all figured out and one of those, yeah. So one of the things about working at OSHA way, which made it an incredible opportunity was that the assistant ran the tape machine, ran the multi-track machine because they were these old ATR one 20 fours. They were like, we used to call them washing machines. They were huge, they were massive and they were really, really were touchy. They had all these little odd things that could go wrong with them or things that you had to be on top of. The remote was this plasma readout, and there were so many ways you could get burned on this remote that most engineered

Speaker 1 (00:42:08):

Burned as in fuck up the tape.

Speaker 2 (00:42:10):

Yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:42:10):

Okay.

Speaker 2 (00:42:11):

Yeah. You would be in repro when you were supposed to be in sync or you could have two tracks armed instead of one or half of your tracks were in repro and the other half were in sync. Fun things like that. And one of the jobs as the assistant was that you had to know how to run that machine and you had to be comfortable on it. So being on staff, there I was. And the machine was the machine and I were one, which was great because when it was time to do punch ins and you were sitting there, it was between you and the musician, there wasn't anybody else who was doing this. It was like the producer or the engineer would tell you, okay, we're going in on bar seven, you got to be like, okay, bar seven. But I knew that I had to anticipate my punch, whereas most the old Studer machines you could punch right on the downbeat and it was pretty forgiving. It's like you'd punch in there and it would sound great if you did that on the ATRs, you'd get this click or you'd get, or it would miss because it took a millisecond for the bias to come up on these machines. So you had to anticipate your punch. So if you're going in on the downbeat of one, you had to start punching on the end to get in on the one.

Speaker 1 (00:43:43):

That's a big anticipation.

Speaker 2 (00:43:45):

And it's like at first when you first start messing around with the machine, you feel it. You're like, wow, okay. And you kind of develop the sense and the guys who've been there longer than I was were great at it. And they all had their little cheat sheets and they had their remotes with their presets so that they could move around and be quick about it. And as I worked there, I developed my own and got into the same rhythm as they did. So yeah, getting way off topic here, but

Speaker 1 (00:44:22):

No, it's fascinating stuff.

Speaker 2 (00:44:24):

What happened was this engineer decided that he didn't need me to run the machine. He was more than capable of running his own tape machine. And how dare I famous last words right here, how dare I insinuate that he wasn't able to run the tape machine. And I was like, okay, you know what? It's all you. I'm just going to show you a couple of things so you don't get into trouble. And he leered at me, he's like, you don't have to show me anything. He's like, I know how to run a goddamn tape machine. And I was like, okay, good luck. So I just turned around, walked over to the couch and sat down and proceeded to watch him bury himself in mistakes, just one after another, just multiple tracks in record the wrong track in record in repro instead of sync all the fuckups that we were trained to avoid or to be cognizant of and be able to get ourselves out of as quickly as possible. And he just one mistake after another, and I could just see the exasperation building on Rick's face. Rick was, to my knowledge, he's never been a shouter or has never gotten in anybody's face. That's just not his vibe. Very mellow, soft-spoken, low key guy. But I could see

Speaker 1 (00:45:56):

It. So it's you, Rick, the cocky guy, and Anthony Keis,

Speaker 2 (00:46:02):

Right? And Anthony's out in the room and he doesn't really know what's going on because nobody was explaining to him that there are all these fuckups going on. But I can see it on Rick's face that he's just like, oh my God, this is fucking ridiculous. And so we get through the first day Rick leaves, I can see him look over at me like, oh boy. And I kind of get this look from him. And I was like, that look. I was like, yeah, oh boy, you're right. And the

Speaker 1 (00:46:37):

Next, that's a bonding moment though. It

Speaker 2 (00:46:40):

Kind of was. And I kind of knew that something was up at the end of the night. I was like, there's no way this is going to keep up this. They're going to have to bring somebody else in. And at that point, I still assumed that they would just find somebody else because that's what happens. And the next day Rick's assistant calls me and she said, Hey, are you available to engineer for Rick tomorrow? Booked isn't available, so we're going over to Sound Factory. Can you go with him? And I was like, shit, yes, okay, no problem. I'm in. And I called Ocean Way, I was like, I'm not available tomorrow. I'm going with Rick to Sound factory and there's silence on the other end of the phone. And she's like, what do you mean? I was like, they called me to engineer the vocal session. And she said, okay, well when are you going to be back? I said, I don't know. I said, we're booked over there for the whole week, so I guess take me out of the schedule for next week. And she's like, okay, great. And then just the reaction from some of the other assistants was like, wait a second, what you're doing what?

Speaker 1 (00:48:00):

Pure, I'm sure,

Speaker 2 (00:48:01):

Well just disbelief. And then definitely some less than nice responses. But I'd say for the most part they were all kind of like, well, you know, it's your funeral. Good for you. Good luck. Oh man, it's going to suck working for him. Oh my God, why would you do that? That's crazy.

Speaker 1 (00:48:23):

Yeah, why would you?

Speaker 2 (00:48:25):

I'm, what do you mean? Why would I do that? I was like, are we talking about the same person here?

Speaker 1 (00:48:31):

I mean, it's easy for them to say that to themselves so that they don't cry over the fact that it didn't happen.

Speaker 2 (00:48:40):

Right. And from that point on, it was a pretty more or less steady eight years of working with him on various records. And it was great. It was the best experience I could have asked for it. Learning on the job on my feet and being able to think on my feet. That's what that taught me was being able to think on my feet and being ready to, okay, how are we going to make that happen? Oh, it's 10 at night and we're having 10 people come in to do strings. Okay, well I guess I got to set up for string date. It was just kind of like there was no way to say no to any of it. You just had to make it happen. And I think that was a really good lesson about how to be a valued part of the team is you just figure it out. And if there is something that just is beyond your control and isn't going to happen, then you got to be straight with whoever you're working for and say, alright, here's what I've tried. Here's what I've done, but I'm not getting what it is you need. So I need some guidance here. What am I supposed to do now?

Speaker 1 (00:50:03):

The very first time that came up with Rick that you were not able to do what he had tasked you to do, were you fucking freaking out? And how did you go about it? How did you go about making it cool?

Speaker 2 (00:50:20):

Well, you know what? I just went with the, you know what? I'm just going to tell him how it is. I'm not going, I'm not going to bullshit him because what's the point in that? What's it going to accomplish? Because we're all working towards the same thing here. And I can't remember exactly what that event was, but I remember going to him and explaining the situation and he said, okay, well tell me what you need to have happen. And I told him what I thought should happen and he said, okay, then let's do that. And it was that simple.

Speaker 1 (00:51:00):

So that's a good leader. That's a good leader.

(00:51:03):

I think there's a lot of misconceptions about him. A lot of people like to dog him because he has other people, well, I guess because they think that he has other people do all the work, which I think is total bullshit. I think that he's more like what a producer is for movies combined with what a director does, but defining a vision and helping making sure that that vision comes to life. And then working with the very best people who can go to work to make that vision. Almost like a general, I think from everything I know about him. And so everything I hear about him is just that he's such a good leader. When someone comes to you that you trust who's working for you, and they say, I can't do this. Well, what do you need to be able to make it done? This and this? Okay. And then you just trust the person to go get it done. That makes for a great working relationship. Whereas some people would've flipped out.

Speaker 2 (00:52:09):

I think it was also about being able to deliver on it, saying, well, if you give me this, this and this, then I can make that happen by him saying yes. It's like, okay, well now the onus is on me to make it happen.

Speaker 1 (00:52:25):

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (00:52:26):

There's definitely that pressure there. But you're right, it was like, I think he's the type of person that once he's decided that he trusts you, then he trusts you and he's good with that. So I think it's a certain person that is able to do that. And I felt like once you were part of that team, you were part of that team, it was like that was it. Your opinions were taken and put into the equation, and that's how things got figured out.

Speaker 1 (00:53:08):

Why would he have picked you otherwise if he didn't trust you?

Speaker 2 (00:53:11):

Well, exactly. And I've heard the rumors that fly around the business about the work stylings of Rick. I think the way I describe it is you either love working with Rick or you don't. You like how he does things or you, I don't think there's a middle ground there. And I think if you are the type of artist who likes what he does, then you're going to have a great experience. But if you are looking for a different approach, maybe a more of a more handholding, then you might be disappointed. You might not get what it is you're looking for. So nobody's going to please everybody. And not everybody connects well with every artist. And I think that goes all the way up the food chain.

Speaker 1 (00:54:15):

I mean, he has connected though really well with quite a few.

Speaker 2 (00:54:20):

Exactly.

Speaker 1 (00:54:21):

The track record is unbelievable.

Speaker 2 (00:54:22):

Speaks for itself. Exactly. And I think that to deny that would be really shortsighted. And yes, he did on when I was working for him, yes, he did count on me for a lot, but you know what? I didn't see that as weird. I didn't see that as, oh, he's not doing anything. I just saw that as part of my job and I saw it as a team effort.

Speaker 1 (00:54:54):

Absolutely. The general doesn't do the work of the people under him. General finds the right people and has them do what they need to do to get the objective taken care of and the big picture.

Speaker 2 (00:55:09):

And he always had an opinion. And I think one of the most frustrating things about working with an artist or another producer is when they don't have an opinion about something where someone will say to me, oh, well, it's not right. It's like, okay, well, isn't right about it. What is it that you don't like? Or what is it that you would change? You have to give me some sort of guidance. What can I do to make this more to your liking? What is going to accomplish the goal you're setting out to achieve? And Rick was always very clear about that to me anyway, if he didn't like the drum sound, there was a reason he didn't like the drum sound. He's like, well, he'd say something like, the snare sounds like it's down the hallway. He's like, we need the snare closer. I need the snare right here. And you'd have his hand up to his face and you're like, okay, I got to figure out how to get the snare.

(00:56:24):

I need it more in my face. So there was at least an opinion there. And that to me makes the world of difference because if you work with somebody who has no opinion, you're like, you're throwing shit against the wall. It's like, well, how's this? This? Somebody says, well, I don't really like the vocal sound. That's such a ball of nothing. It's like, great, well, what are you looking for? And well, can you try something else? Well, something else what it's like when you are mixing a track or recording something, you hear it a certain way, you go with your gut, you go with your instincts. It's like, okay, I'm hearing it like this. That doesn't mean everybody's going to agree with that or everybody's going to hear it the same way. And that's fine. It's all subjective obviously. So what is it that you don't like about it? Is it too bright? Is it too warm? Is it too much bottom end? Is it too compressed? Is it not compressed enough? Is it too wet? Is it too dry? Is there too much delay? There has to be some sort of tangible thing that you have to help me with because otherwise we could be here until the end of time.

Speaker 1 (00:57:57):

Just going to take a quick break, and I promise it's going to be quick, but it's important. I need to remind you guys, so please forgive me. This episode is brought to you by the URM Summit, four days of networking workshops, seminars, and hanging out with your URM friends and dozens of the industry's best pros. It's November eight through 11 at the Las Vegas Weston, and tickets are available right [email protected]. Alright, back to the episode. I'm sure that also taught you the importance of specificity when you would then later on in your career as a freelancer or just working in any of those scenarios. I'm sure that taught you how to properly present a problem to somebody else, because I've learned this too. You can't, I mean, it's not just in production, it's in business too. You can't just go up to somebody who's been working on something and be like, this sucks,

Speaker 3 (00:58:56):

Right?

Speaker 1 (00:58:57):

I mean, if you want them to hate you or to mentally check out, but that's not a good way to do things. You might be giving a comment on something that you're not the expert on. So it seems to me like Rick hires people who are experts. He works with a series of experts to help fulfill his vision. I could be wrong, but that's what it strikes me as. And I think that when you're running a business, it's the same thing. You hire people who are better than you at certain things that are crucial that need to happen, but that you might not be the expert on. So when you talk to them, you might be talking to them about something that they spent 20 years to get good at that you don't know that much about. And so it is easy to just say, that's wrong.

(00:59:46):

That's the easiest thing to do. But it's the worst thing too. You definitely need to tell them why it's wrong and give some sort of, maybe you can't give them the technical solution. When I'm working with someone who codes, I don't know code for shit, so I can't go in and say It's wrong because of these lines of code and I need you to fix them to, I can't do that. But I can definitely say, this is off because of this and this. We needed it to be more such and such. I mean, this is cool, but we need it to be more like this.

Speaker 2 (01:00:26):

I think you really need to be able to explain, and it doesn't have to be technical, I think.

Speaker 1 (01:00:33):

No,

Speaker 2 (01:00:33):

It

Speaker 1 (01:00:34):

Doesn't at all.

Speaker 2 (01:00:34):

But I think a great artist is also a great communicator because absolutely that's what great art does, is it communicates to other people. And I definitely feel like this has been my experience. I think the people who are more artistically comfortable or more comfortable with who they are and are aware of what they're trying to do, are able to verbalize better what it is they need or what it is that they're not liking about what's going on. I think that usually those people are better able to explain, well, I don't like this and this is why. Or I was hoping that this could be more like that. I'm hearing more of this and that I'm hearing more ambiance around my drums than I'm getting or drum. Why isn't there more attack on the kick drum? I want the kick drum to feel I want more impact from the kick drum. It's like it's these kind of descriptors that really help me be creative, if that makes sense. I think what it is I do in this profession, I think my creativity feeds off other people's goals. It's like I want it to be like this. And then that's where my creativity comes in, where I need to make it like that. And it's not really how you make the sausage, it's the sausage at the end. It's how you got there or not how you got there, but what's there.

Speaker 1 (01:02:24):

So it sounds like you love figuring out the equation for how to bring somebody else's vision to life.

Speaker 2 (01:02:33):

Yes, absolutely. And this has been my line to most artists or bands that I'm meeting with is I don't want this record to sound like Dave Schiffman. I want it to sound like you guys, I want to be invisible. I don't want somebody to listen to this and go, oh, Schiffman did this. No, that makes no sense to me. It's like I'm trying to get somebody else's vision to speak the best it can somebody to be a band, to make their best record or be the best of themselves. Inserting myself into the equation sonically just seems completely out of line.

Speaker 1 (01:03:18):

It sounds to me too, what you love is in realizing their vision almost, that your vision is to properly realize a great artist's vision. Whether the great artist, it was Rick Rubin or whoever you're working with now.

Speaker 2 (01:03:37):

Exactly. At the end of a record, the ultimate compliment is we never thought we could sound this good or this record has gone beyond our expectations. We never imagined it would get here. I mean, that to me is the best compliment ever because you've taken somebody's vision and not only have you achieved it, but you've excelled. You've gone past it. I mean, how could you ask for anything more than that?

Speaker 1 (01:04:08):

I don't think you can. So I guess that brings up that what do you do? How do you get through it when you're working with someone that doesn't have a very defined vision?

Speaker 2 (01:04:21):

It can be difficult. I find those records to be the biggest struggles because then you have to count on your own vision and you have to, I

Speaker 1 (01:04:34):

Guess this kind of goes full circle to what we were first talking about with the managers and publicists and labels, that you can't expect a publicist to create your story for you. You have to have a story for them to pitch. The publicity outlets on a manager. They can't manage a career that doesn't exist or that's not in demand. You have to have that demand already and then they can manage what you give them to work with. Just like you need to have that vision coming in from the artist, or you got to make one up, I guess.

Speaker 2 (01:05:10):

Or you have to find the commonality. You have to find, okay, what is it that this artist is really looking to achieve? And then you have to go on gut response. Is this getting this singer to do the right thing or are they lost? Are they feeling this or are they just not getting it at all? And I will say part of it, working with newer artists and newer bands, there definitely, there has to be a conversation at the beginning of the record. And I've run into this part of the conversation many times where I'll be sitting with an artist or a band and I will say it's mostly newer bands or artists where they're like, yeah, we really want the drums Vampire Weekend, but we want the guitars system of A down and we want the vocal sound. And it's love that like, holy shit, dude, you just don't get it.

(01:06:21):

And what I will try and say to these artists is, here's the thing, you can imagine how something sounds in your head any way you want. You can imagine heavy guitars with like there's a zillion vampire weekend drum sounds, but you can imagine those two things together just because you can imagine it doesn't mean it physically can happen. When bands have this vision, they need to really think about the key of the song and the tempo of the song and the style of the song and the vibe that they want to get across. All of these things have to be taken into consideration. It's like if you have a big warm kick and your tempo is 175 BPM, well that's just going to sound like mush. It's just the physics of it just doesn't make any sense.

Speaker 1 (01:07:27):

Yeah, I've had extreme death metal bands that play at 2 75 with double bass the whole time and blast beats and just drum Olympics wanting to sound like the Metallica Black album

Speaker 3 (01:07:41):

Snare.

Speaker 1 (01:07:42):

And so you don't understand, this is not, if we actually tried to create the black album drums, which first of all is not going to happen, but just say it did. If we were to manage to pull that sound off in three days, three days on top of that, and if you actually heard what extreme death metal sounds like with these kinds of drums, you'd fire me. It's not what you actually want.

Speaker 2 (01:08:13):

It's just not. And that's the thing also is when you're like, well, that isn't what you're looking for. I understand, but that you don't want that. Here's what you want. Here's what you're saying. And there's definitely a more politically correct way to say that.

Speaker 1 (01:08:32):

I have a hard time with that.

Speaker 2 (01:08:34):

I get it. Because sometimes I definitely get to the edge and I'm like, look, I'm more than happy to work with you guys to get what you're looking for, but at the same time, you have to listen to what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (01:08:50):

Where's the line though? Where's the line? Because I think that what a great mixer, a great producer, a great engineer does, is they take that fantasy sound and they make it reality. However, that fantasy sound from what they start with oftentimes changes once they get to work. And that's the same with songwriting and composition. I know that whenever I've had a song in my head at first, like a vision for it after actually working on it, the vision changes because reality gets interjected into that vision. We all have to have some sort of a fantasy of some sort of what it could be. And sometimes I think artists just don't know how to translate it. That is why they hire you. So where's the line between when they're just being artists and they need you to help achieve that vision versus when they're just being completely ridiculous? The Black album sounds on death metal at 2 75.

Speaker 2 (01:09:50):

Right? Well, that's a good question and I think, I don't know that I have an answer because it really depends on the scenario. I think there's politics at play here and one member of the band may feel a certain way and the other members of the band may be saying, ignore him. Don't worry about him. He doesn't know what he's talking about. So you kind of have to play the room to some extent and just kind of feel it out and ultimately, look, you want everyone to be happy and I want to be happy with the end result. It's just coming to that common ground. And I think where I try and take it to is if the black album drum sounds where the goal, I would say, I get it. You want an important drum sound, and I think this record needs an important drum sound, but let's make it your important drum sound and not metallica's important drum sound. And I thoroughly believe that too. It's like, well, you know what? Metallica already made the black album. Why not make

Speaker 1 (01:11:08):

A while ago?

Speaker 2 (01:11:08):

Yeah, exactly. A while ago. And most of its triggers, but

Speaker 1 (01:11:17):

Little known fact.

Speaker 2 (01:11:18):

Yeah, I mean it is. And I don't think Bob Rock would tell you otherwise.

Speaker 1 (01:11:22):

No, no, not Bob Rock. There's a lot of internet experts who will be anything with samples on it is bullshit. Just look at albums like the Black album that's real drums all the way, no samples, blah, blah, blah. Because back in the day, people knew what they were doing and did shit for real. It's like, bro, they've been using samples a long time

Speaker 2 (01:11:47):

Since Wendell, that was Roger Nichols drum machine that he used on Steely Dan records. It's been around forever. But I think the point that I try and make, and it's not a get off my back technique. It's true. It's like I want to make a record with you guys. That doesn't sound like Metallica, for example. I want it to sound like you. So that should be our goal. Let's get important drum sound. Yes, but it's your important drum sound. It is not the black album. And I appreciate that as the brass ring, so to speak, and this is what we're shooting for, but put that into your own perspective of who you guys are as a band. You need to find out who you are as a band and then that stuff starts to make more sense. I think that is a new band reaction. We want to sound like the black album. I think once bands really know what they sound like, less of that starts to happen. And when I say know what they sound like, I think there's a bit of cognitive dissonance with new bands. I dunno, are you familiar with that term at all?

Speaker 1 (01:13:13):

Oh yes.

Speaker 2 (01:13:15):

And so you know what I mean? It's like where a band says, well, we sound just Pink Floyd. And it's like, dude, you sound nothing like Pink Floyd. Let's just call a spade a spade here. You don't sound like Pink Floyd.

Speaker 1 (01:13:27):

Let me just give you guys the actual definition for people wondering what it means. I just looked up the actual textbook definition.

Speaker 3 (01:13:35):

Okay, yeah, good.

Speaker 1 (01:13:36):

Which is the state of having inconsistent thoughts, beliefs, or attitudes, especially as relating to behavioral decisions and attitude changes.

Speaker 2 (01:13:45):

Yes.

Speaker 1 (01:13:46):

So you think you sound like Pink Floyd, but you sure as hell don't.

Speaker 2 (01:13:49):

And you don't. And not that you sound bad, you're a really cool band, but you're not Pink Floyd. You don't sound like Pink Floyd. And that's okay. And I find that once bands kind of understand that and they know, alright, you know what? We really don't sound like Ping Floyd, but we're okay anyway. We still sound like a cool band. Once they kind of hit that point in their existence, everything makes a lot more sense. And making records becomes a lot more of it, becomes a lot more creative. Instead of chasing some non-existent dragon, it's like you're making records that sound like you. And if you don't like the way something sounds, well then you change it. Then it's like, alright, well you know what? I play way too many Toms. I'm going to get rid of four of my 10 Toms and I'm only going to play six Toms or something like that. Only six. Only six. It's like, I'm going to make a difference because this is what I want to hear. Instead of here you do it, it starts on the other side of the microphones. It's like if you are playing, you're hitting the drums like one drummer, but you don't want to sound like that, then you have to stop hitting the drums like that.

Speaker 1 (01:15:12):

If you hit the drums like a jazz teacher, but you want it to sound like Dave Grohl drums, you better adjust the way you hit.

Speaker 2 (01:15:19):

Right. There you go. Thank you. You nailed it. And that's the thing that I will have great in depth conversations with a drummer about when we're starting a record. It's like, well, what are you looking for? What style? What are we going after here? See, here's how I'm hearing it. I'm hearing it a bit more like a vintage tone. So I'm talking about an older set of drums, like an older set of ludwigs with not necessarily any stuffing in the kick drum, like with a hollow kick drum, but tight, like a 22 inch kick drum. Nothing big. How are you hearing it? Well, I really want the kick drum to be super focused and tight and in your face. Okay, well then my feeling about the drums might be off, so we need to adjust it a little bit.

Speaker 1 (01:16:19):

Now the question is if you're discussing that with someone like Rick Rubin or a highly skilled engineer, then just saying those things like size of drum type of drum stuffing or no stuffing, mike choice, all those things, right? You guys are speaking the same language. So you can get to, I feel like by just speaking that language and just being like, this is what I want, and then you throw out the scenario that I just said, this type of this with that type of that this recipe. And they say, no, that recipe's wrong. Maybe I'm thinking more this recipe. You get the final, you get to what you get to the vision. But what about when you're working with someone who doesn't have that vocabulary at all? I want them to sound like they make blood come down your face.

Speaker 2 (01:17:16):

I think then there's a little experimentation that has to happen. If your drummer doesn't have a lot of recording experience and doesn't know what the right setup would be for the type of sound he's going for, then you kind of have to guide them a little bit. If

Speaker 1 (01:17:40):

I want to sound like Cannons and I want to sound like I'm 48 feet tall, give me that drum sound,

Speaker 2 (01:17:48):

Right? Okay. So it's not a 26 inch kick drum. It's probably a 22 or a 24 inch kick drum. It's probably a hole in the front of the kick drum with some stuffing in it, but maybe not against the beater head. So you get some tone out of it, but you get weight because what makes drums sound big is weight is when you feel them hit. And the other thing that gives drums weight is tightness. Like a big ass drum room isn't going to give you big ass drums necessarily. If you're not filling up that room,

Speaker 1 (01:18:24):

You have your big ass tails.

Speaker 2 (01:18:28):

So sometimes in bigger rooms, what I've done in the past is run a PA system with the drum kit. So you send the kick drum and the Toms and maybe the snare through the PA to hype up the room. And that's really cool. I mean, that's a great trick for that kind of drums if you're looking to do those big, big drums, that's a great way to do it. Another way is to keep the drum room tighter because when it's tighter, you're hearing more of the drum and less of the ambiance around it. And I think when you can do that, you can take that in mix and you can make that blow out more. You can make that punch through guitars harder because there's more of it. There's more of it to hear. I think a super ambient drum sound on heavier music can get lost depending on the direction you take with guitar tones and bass, all of that, all those factors work together.

Speaker 1 (01:19:45):

So if someone was to come to you with that kind of language, then it's almost like you just did. It sounds like you go to the recipe book almost and it's like, we could try this or we could try this or we could try this or we could try this.

Speaker 2 (01:20:01):

Right? And so you come with some suggestions and you see what makes sense. You also have to take into consideration budget. I know nobody likes to talk about the B word, but it's true. It's true. And it's like, well, oh, running the pa, that's great. We want to do that. Okay, well we got to rent a PA and we need a sizable room. Okay, great. Okay, well that sizable room is about 1800 bucks a day. And the PA's probably, I don't know, three, 400 bucks a day. So 2200 bucks a day to record those drum sounds. I'm down who's paying for it?

Speaker 1 (01:20:48):

Plus are you hiring a drum tech tuner guy for that stuff?

Speaker 2 (01:20:52):

Right. And that's another thing that I find super critical, unless you have a drummer who really is comfortable tuning his drums.

Speaker 1 (01:21:04):

Oh, just out of curiosity, what percentage of drum sessions have you worked with a drummer that you would trust all the way to just tune the drums and do it exact? Not just tune them. Okay, but tune them. Like album Ready.

Speaker 2 (01:21:21):

Surprisingly, again, it really depends on the style. It's like if you're going for Big rock drums, you really want to have a tech in there only because it's pretty arduous task. There's a lot to go through. It takes a little more time and you really want to finesse stuff. It's really about getting in there like nitty gritty and it's about a lot of, okay, well let's try it with the coated. Yeah, not really feeling the coated. Could we try clear? Could we try clear with a dot? And these aren't big tweaks, but they become important tweaks because it's like, well, the coded don't sustain as long. Well, that probably makes sense because these songs are pretty quick. You know what? We should stick with the coated. Do we want to have skins on the underside of the Toms? Well, yeah, probably. But you know what?

(01:22:26):

We could try it without for this song that might be interesting because it'll have more of a tribal feel if we do that. It'll feel more like Phil Collins drums if we pull the bottoms off. So alright, so let's try that. And when you want to kind of run through options like that, you don't want to necessarily throw it on your drummer. It's great to have another set of hands there who's like, okay, I'm on it. And he'll just go through and he'll set it all up or there'll be like, there's another kick drum that's set up differently or Okay, well we can try swapping these toms out. For those Toms, you want to have that person kind of in your corner who will mix it up for you or with you

Speaker 1 (01:23:13):

A real expert too. Because I feel like those drum guys, like the real good techs, they are two drums, kind of like what a luie air is to guitar construction.

Speaker 2 (01:23:24):

Oh, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:23:25):

It is their passion in life, and God bless them. They have made my recordings so much better. I've really only worked with one or two that are just unbelievable. But they are, they're a godsend. And it's not just saving the drummer a lot of from hitting too much and tiring themselves out before they can even play. It's also about your ears. If you're in there with the drum all day long hitting it, you're using up your valuable ear real estate for things you don't need to. And then it's going to make things take even longer, I think.

Speaker 2 (01:24:04):

Yeah, you're absolutely right. I couldn't agree more. I think you need to keep your drummer fresh as much as possible, but not excluding him from the equation because

Speaker 1 (01:24:18):

No, of course not.

Speaker 2 (01:24:19):

What I've learned, and now I just assume it is that your drum tech is going to hit the drums way different from how your drummer hits.

Speaker 1 (01:24:29):

Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:24:30):

And not necessarily worse. Sometimes better. Sometimes better, yes.

Speaker 1 (01:24:36):

What's funny, this, the drum tech, his name is Matt Brown. He's phenomenal, the one I work with the most. And we would always take sample hits in every session, always just for whatever reason. And I mean for whatever might come up where you might need it, I would always have him do it because nine times out of 10, he just hit the drums better than the drummer did. He's just perfect, has just the perfect hit because I mean so much of how a drum sounds is the person playing it and how they play it that I feel like someone who is obsessed with drums, one of those drum tech guys, they have pretty much worked out that part of the equation too. They've worked out everything that goes into making a drum sound great. So oftentimes their ability to hit the drum is just fantastic.

Speaker 2 (01:25:30):

Yeah, it, I've been lucky enough to work with a couple of drum techs who have forgotten more about drums than I'll ever know. There's a guy, Mike Fasano, who I've done a bunch of work with out in LA who's brilliant and just so easy to work with and you give him a goal, it's like, here's what we're looking for, here's the sound we're going for. And he'll be like, okay, give me a second. And he'll go dig out the snare, go dig out, tune up the Toms and it'll be like something like this. And eight and a half times out of 10, not only is it in the ballpark, but it's like, yes, that's right. And another guy that I did a ton of records with is a guy named Lee Smith who used to own a company called Drummer Paradise. And that guy just knew everything. Well, how did John Bonham get that snare sound? What was he using for this? And he'd be like, oh, well. And he was just like, rattle off everything down to the skin. And I'd be like, Jesus, all right, great. And he could make it all happen, or during a take he'd lean in and he'd say, sounds like the snare fell, the tuning on it and be like, all, let's stop and go ahead and say, okay, can we do lug locks? Lug locks don't really work on the snare, we're just going to have to ear ball it. And okay,

Speaker 1 (01:27:09):

My favorite thing is when Matt will lean over to me in a session and say, tell the drummer to put to do a half turn on the lug closest to him on the eight inch Tom.

Speaker 2 (01:27:23):

Go solve. Yeah, there you go. Yeah, those guys are rare but essential. It really makes all the difference. And I mean, I've done multiple records where I've been like, God, the drums just sound, they just don't sound good. What is going on? And then I have the tech go out there and hit them and it's like, oh no, they actually do sound good. Good. And that's kind of taught me that it is so much about the player and the instrument really is secondary. I mean, that's for guitars as well. Absolutely. One of the greatest learning experiences I ever had about that was I did a bunch of work with the Delio brothers when they were a production team for a little bit back in the early two thousands. Dean and Robert Delio, who were the guitar and bass bassist for Stone Temple pilots, both awesome, they're great, awesome guys and fantastic musicians. Really, really cream of the crop.

Speaker 1 (01:28:40):

I remember back in the day, and I was a teenager in the nineties, but I just remember reading interviews about how out of all the bands from that era, they were considered the musicians. Musicians, you know what I

Speaker 3 (01:28:54):

Mean? Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:28:56):

As a lot of the other bands may have been awesome, but awesome bands. These guys were real deal musicians.

Speaker 2 (01:29:06):

I mean, they could have been studio musicians in their own right. They were completely capable of playing whatever. And we were working on, and forgive me, but I don't remember the name of the band. That's okay. It was probably like 2002 or three.

Speaker 1 (01:29:28):

Was it one of their other bands?

Speaker 2 (01:29:30):

No, no, it was a band that they were producing as a team.

Speaker 1 (01:29:33):

Ah, okay. Okay, got it.

Speaker 2 (01:29:36):

We were working on the guitar solo. And so Dean brings in all of his amps, his guitars, like his beautiful strats and great old tellies and gorgeous fender tweeds and ac, all the best and finest guitar amps and guitars you could want. And were getting a solo sound for this one part, and it just sounds terrible. I'm like, what is going on? So I'm telling the assistant, can you change out the mic? I like, it just sounds all like muffled and dead. Let's try a different mic. Alright, that sounds the same. Let's try a different mic. Pre pull the compressor off. Alright, take the EQ out. Still sounds like shit. What is going on? And this whole time Dean is kind of sitting with the soloist and at one point Dean's like, wait, wait. And this is a complete different conversation going on now. So Dean says to the guy trying to play the solo here, give me the guitar for a sec. Let me show you what I'm talking about for a specific part.

(01:30:51):

And he's like, Dave, roll this tape. Just put me in input. So I put 'em into record and the guitar explodes out of the speakers. It sounds like God. And I turn around and I look at Dina and I was like, what just happened? That's when I put two and two together. I was like, because then he gave it back to the guy who was trying the solo and it sounded like the guy had oven mitts on just no definition, no clarity, nothing, no sort of solo presence at all. And that's when I realized it's got nothing to do with the guitar, the amp or the pedal you're playing through. It's all the fingers and the fretboard and how you dig into the guitar and how you approach the guitar. That's what makes the guitar sound. So if you put Dean Delio on a piece of shit Squire Strat going through a Crate amp, guess what? It's going to sound like Dean Delio no matter what.

Speaker 1 (01:31:57):

Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you for saying all this. We try to get this through to our students all the time because I oftentimes see them getting really, really obsessed with this amp over that amp and

(01:32:14):

Just too much about guitar gear. And I guess it's become an internet cliche a little bit to be like, it's the hands man, but it is the hands man. It really is. The reason that became an internet cliche is because people who know have been speaking this truth for a while. The problem I think for people who are learning online is if they don't have somebody great to mentor with, one of the things that we do with URM and now the mix is we try to give them, because we work with real tracks and real producers, they get to see some of where the bar is at. But for a lot of people, if they don't have a way to know where the bar is at, they might think they're really good at guitar when they're not even close to good enough. And so they'll say, but I am already awesome. My hands are there, bro, I just have a shitty amp. And it's impossible to really get through to them because they don't have a frame of reference for what really good actually means. But dude, I know this is so true. You hand me John Petrus's rig, it's not going to sound like John Petru. You put Zach Wild on John Petrus's rig it. It's not going to sound like John. It's going to sound like Zach Wild. Exactly. And that's just how it

Speaker 2 (01:33:35):

Works. Yeah, there is no way around that. Obviously there are some amps that sound better than others that work better with the style of music you're doing. Of course, of

Speaker 1 (01:33:45):

Course.

Speaker 2 (01:33:46):

But at the end of the day, it's like how you hit that guitar, how you strum that guitar or hit that guitar is how you get that tone.

Speaker 1 (01:33:55):

Absolutely. So in your experience, well no, not in your experience, how about in that particular story with the Delio Brothers? What happened? How did that conclude if I mean, so once it came clear to you that it was the player? Well, one thing that I've learned is it's kind of like with wedding photography. I have a friend who's a wedding photographer. He is a great photographer, does all kinds of stuff. But weddings have been like until he started doing politicians and athletes, weddings were his thing. And one thing that he would always say was that the brides would always be like, can you make me look like I'm 30 pounds lighter? It's like, yeah, here's my time machine. We're going to go back 90 days and here's an exercise plan and a diet plan. Or we could just postpone your wedding

Speaker 4 (01:34:49):

By

Speaker 1 (01:34:50):

Three months and lose 30 pounds and I will make you look like you lost 30 pounds. So you can only be what you are. That guitar player is not going to suddenly get amazing right there and then, so what do you do or what did you do?

Speaker 2 (01:35:07):

Well, I think this may sound shitty, but you kind of have to lower the bar. It's like, alright, you know what? This guy isn't going to sound like Dean Delio. Let's just get him to sound the best he can. And I think what we may have ended up doing was coming up with a harmony for the solo to kind of thicken it out and kind of tailoring the part to what he was actually capable of. And I think not trying to throw something at him that was over his head, it's finding the way to make him sound the best he could and makes that sense kind of goes around to my initial point. It's like you have to find a way to make the band the sound the best that they can because you can't change the talent that you've been given to work with.

(01:36:05):

You have to find the right place creatively that suits them where they're comfortable. That's another thing when I'm talking to singers about who are also the writer of the song or even who's ever writing the song. It's like write it. Make sure that the key is so that your singer is singing in the strongest possible range as much as possible. Because if he's not singing in the meat of his range and he's always straining to get it to sound right, well you're going to have two problems. One is he's not going to be consistent, so you don't know what performance you're going to get that night. And two, he's going to blow himself out and you're going to have a lot of canceled dates because your singer's blown his voice out. And the other thing I like to say is, is this the key that you would play the song in when you get asked to play the Tonight Show? Are you prepared to sing the song like this in front of 10 million people on tv? If not, then you need to consider changing the key.

Speaker 1 (01:37:18):

Absolutely. Is this something that most artists you find go with if you ask them to change the key, do they typically just comply or

Speaker 2 (01:37:31):

I think it's a 50 50 thing and I think sometimes I'm wrong and I will admit that and own it. Sometimes when I initially hear something, I'll be like, this sounds too high for you. Am I crazy? And sometimes they'll say, yes, you're crazy. I can hit this. This is in my range, it'll sound great. And sometimes I'll just be like, okay, let's hear it. And I get proven wrong and great, but as the producer, it's up to me to bring that up to at least open that door and have that conversation because sometimes people aren't even aware. It's like, wait, what do you mean? I can make this lower?

Speaker 1 (01:38:18):

Yeah. At what point would you consider replacing a musician with a session player? Oh boy. I mean it happens. It happens. At what point?

Speaker 2 (01:38:31):

It used to be more so before the advent of Pro Tools, honestly, because

Speaker 1 (01:38:36):

True

Speaker 2 (01:38:37):

Pro tools let you accomplish the impossible. Back when you were just recording a tape, it was more often that the drummer got the hook because he just wasn't up to snuff. And I've done a number of records more than a couple with Rick where the drummer is sitting on the couch in the control room while we're tracking drums. And I feel so bad for that guy, but it's just like, I'd say most of them actually come around and go, you know what? I couldn't have pulled that shit off,

Speaker 1 (01:39:13):

Man. Whenever I've had that happen, they typically are relieved.

Speaker 2 (01:39:17):

Yeah. With Josh Freeze out there playing it, it's like, alright, well no, you're not going to get there. You're not going to get there overnight. So Josh comes in and does your drum tracks in two days instead of taking three weeks to get drums. It's like that kind of made more sense, didn't it? And most times drummers will watch that and go, you know what? I've got some work to do. I'm not there yet. Right.

Speaker 1 (01:39:47):

So do you think that because this was more common back in the day before Pro Tools, that this whole thing about what people could play back in the day is a bit of a myth because there were guys, Josh Freeze that would play on so many people's records that yeah, there is a dude who could play. You hear him on 70 records you listen to.

Speaker 2 (01:40:09):

Oh yeah. Yeah. I think more so than people know because a lot of times the session musicians would play uncredited and it was to maintain that myth that the band could play or that the drummer could play. And I remember as starting out as an assistant back in New York, I would work on records where it was like, wait, is this a band or a solo artist? Because not one member of the band is playing on the record. It's all been replaced. And that was a pretty regular occurrence back then? Yes. Was it the norm? I don't know when it started to become the norm and then it kind of dissipated as budgets dried up or as people kind of, I'd say kind of like when grunge came along, when the nineties when Nirvana broke down the door, I think it stopped being more common. I think that was when there was a turning point.

Speaker 1 (01:41:13):

Makes sense. But you just confirmed what I thought. I've always kind of thought that it was a myth the whole people used to be able to play back in the day and it's just like not from what I've heard, from what I've heard, there were teams of session musicians who were on call in all the major cities who would come in and save records quite frequently. And that solo you think, is this guy you love, is it not? It's this little Jewish dude who played this solo and this solo too. I've been hearing about that for years. So I've always felt like the problems that bands have always kind of been there. There's always been the guy that can't play that well. There's always been those problems.

Speaker 2 (01:41:58):

Yes, I think there has been, but I think they might be somewhat exacerbated now. But there is the workaround and a lot of these musicians who aren't quite as competent know about the workaround, so they're less concerned. So a drummer who is marginally getting by with some work, they can sound good with some editing, it gets a lot better. So something that wouldn't be acceptable back when we didn't have that technology and they would be replaced. That really isn't a conversation that comes up now. It's alright, well what, instead of hiring a session musician, you're like, you know what? I need to bring in an editor to get this to the place where it needs to be. And that's the conversation that happens now. It's like, alright, well I'm not going to have time to do all this. We need to pay somebody to come in and help us out. And that's the replacement to hiring a session drummer most of the time.

Speaker 1 (01:43:16):

Well point being that there is something that has to happen in order to solve for that problem and that problem's always been there.

Speaker 2 (01:43:26):

Yes, you're absolutely right. It is a persistent thing for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:43:32):

We talked about another one of these studio myths. I just think that earlier the one with samples, I just think that people idealize the past and it's a common thing. I remember in the nineties, people used to think that they wished that they were around in the sixties, but I'm sure that people in the sixties were very, very stressed out with what was going on around them and did not think they lived in the greatest era ever. I think that this is a common thing. And a few of the other studio myths that I've heard repeatedly are guitar players now Reamp, blah, blah, blah. It's all bullshit. No, the amping has been around since the seventies. Samples have been around forever too, right. Musicians have been sloppy forever too.

Speaker 2 (01:44:27):

And I think a difference, and tell me if this makes sense. I think back in the sixties and seventies, the cream of the crop rose higher. If you were not a good band, nothing happened for you. I think you needed to have a certain amount of capability in order to get above the fray. Now the fray is just massive because with the advent of recording in your bedroom, pretty much anybody who has a laptop can say, well, yeah, I'm a producer, I'm an engineer. And it just adds more noise to the internet more you're looking for a needle in a stack of needles instead of a needle in a haystack. Now

Speaker 1 (01:45:17):

I think that there were Sikh bands back then and Sikh musicians, and there are Sikh musicians now, but I think you're right. The difference now, the signal Tono ratio is what I call it, is kind of skewed. So it's a lot harder to find them, but I feel like there's, and I could be wrong, but I have a theory that there's more talent now than ever. And the reason is that because of the internet, because now people who have a talent can find out about their talent and the barrier to entry is low so they can develop that talent. I mean, it's hard for them to get noticed because of the amount of noise out there, but back in the day, the resources to even find out if you had a talent were very, very limited. And so I'm sure that there were a lot of people who could have done something. And I don't just mean in music, I mean in

Speaker 3 (01:46:18):

General.

Speaker 1 (01:46:20):

In general. I think that there was a lot of undiscovered talent, whereas nowadays, this is a perfect example. So I was listening to a podcast with a Navy Seal who was a Navy Seal in the nineties and two thousands. And he said that when they did their selections and buds and all that stuff, that nobody was ever ready for it. They were severely shocked when the selection program came around because all people had ever heard was it's going to be really hard.

(01:47:01):

But there were no specifics on how to get ready. But now high school kids have all this information on how to train for this. If you want to be a seal, this is what they're going to do to you. They're going to make you stay up for five days straight, they're going to make you run around with logs, they're going to make you do 5,000 pushups in a day. All this stuff, it's known. And so there's training programs for how to get ready for that. And so there's a lot of kids going in to the Navy seal selection and training program ready. Not to say that it's not difficult, but they're ready. So they're coming in having at least discovered that they have a talent for this sort of thing. And I think it's the same with music. I think it's the same with everything. The only difference now is the fact that there's very few gatekeepers before means that everybody has a voice, which almost means that nobody has a voice as opposed to before where getting a record deal was winning the lottery in a way it was so rare, close to impossible. But I actually think there's more talent now just because or more developed talent now.

Speaker 2 (01:48:13):

Yes, I agree with you on that point for sure. But I also see it's a double-edged sword because I look at the singing contests on TV like The Voice and American Idol. Exactly. And you kind of scoff at it, and I agree with you, but technically, and this is how what I call laypeople, watch these shows and they're like, but he's such a good singer. And I'm like, so what does that matter? When is being a good singer been the point of entry? It's the same with being a great musician. When has being a great musician been the point of entry? It's having something to say what was the point of entry? And I think what the internet has done is it's made a lot of people decide that they can do this and it's there something to say when it's just, you know what? You have a very nice voice and you sing. Yes, you can sound just like Justin Bieber, that's great, but you know what? We've got a Justin Bieber and we don't need another one.

Speaker 1 (01:49:26):

That's very, very true. But that's the noise I was talking about. The noise ratio is pretty high.

Speaker 2 (01:49:34):

But I think that the training videos and the things you're talking about exacerbates that side of it too, because people watch these YouTube and how-to videos and cop that thing instead of developing their own thing.

Speaker 1 (01:49:52):

That can definitely be a problem. However, I am hearing lots of artists now that are very, very original, very unique, who

Speaker 3 (01:50:02):

Came

Speaker 1 (01:50:02):

Up through the new system. I just think they're harder to find.

Speaker 3 (01:50:07):

I

Speaker 1 (01:50:07):

Just think they're harder to find. There's just that much, you're right, the barrier to entry is low. So what you're getting is a lot of people who you normally would not have ever heard from who clouding up the space for everybody. That's the drawback of this. I think that there's the pros and cons to everything that ever

Speaker 2 (01:50:32):

Happens.

Speaker 1 (01:50:33):

Absolutely. That's the big,

Speaker 2 (01:50:34):

Yeah, absolutely. But you're right. Somebody who wouldn't have been able to afford to get into the studio and make a demo of what they do can now do that relatively inexpensively and make something that actually sounds more than passable, that sounds somewhat professional with very little investment in financially.

Speaker 1 (01:51:02):

So I'm a big fan of Billie Eilish. Are you familiar with her?

Speaker 2 (01:51:06):

Yeah, sure.

Speaker 1 (01:51:06):

I feel like she's a product of now. I mean, she's 17 or 18 now. She's obviously a product of the modern era. And I know that she writes with her brother and they did it through a home studio. And I think she's a fantastic singer. I like a lot of her songs. I wonder if she could have done it in the nineties. I feel like she is, people like her are the artists that are being created by this new way of doing things.

Speaker 3 (01:51:42):

Yes.

Speaker 1 (01:51:43):

I wonder if she could have ever developed her talent when you did have to go to a demo studio just to put tracks down. If all she had was a four track in her basement with her brother, would they have been able to do this?

Speaker 2 (01:51:57):

Well, I guess not really. Kind of knowing her personally or her whole process, it's kind of hard to make that determination because I think if she truly, I don't know how her and her brother came to these songs, like how they wrote these songs because if those songs exist in a simpler form, I think she probably would've found her way. Do you know what I mean? It's like, I don't know that the songs only exist because of the production, which is excellent, by the way. I mean, those records sound phenomenal, but I think they're also great songs and that's the difference. Oh

Speaker 1 (01:52:38):

Yes, for

Speaker 2 (01:52:39):

Sure. So I think those songs probably would've found their way out in the nineties. I will say, I think women in Iraq, that has changed a lot as well for the better. And I think they're becoming better represented in this world. And it's women like Billy and others that have done that. Would she have gotten the same chance in the nineties that might've worked against her as well? It's hard to say.

Speaker 1 (01:53:14):

True. Back to what I said before, there's pros and cons to every bit of technology in every evolutionary advance, in every era. I do think that the con of the nineties was that it was, you could have people who had so much potential who just had zero way to ever realize that potential or to have a chance at a career. It was so damn difficult to get out there, get started.

Speaker 2 (01:53:45):

And the majors were like, they were the gatekeepers. Absolutely. And they held a lot of it back, and now they play less of a part in the development and breaking of an artist. So I think in that respect, it's a much more open playing field now, and it's a lot more of anything goes as opposed to a much more kept and orderly thing. It's also really noticeable in the way music is becoming genre less. There's less of a distinct, alright, this is pop. Okay, this is alternative, this is rock. It's all running together, which I think is amazing because I think it's same here. It's just good music. It's not good because it's rock. It's not good because it's hip hop, it's good music. And I think that's a great leveler in terms of what's great is great. And it's not about who's doing it or what style it is or anything like that. So

Speaker 1 (01:54:54):

Has this made your job at all more difficult in terms of finding the essence of a sound when the sound of an artist can be very erratic or combining a bunch of things that historically didn't go together? Basically genre less?

Speaker 2 (01:55:13):

I think the challenge is if you are making a full length album, which is becoming less and less the case these days, is to make it feel as though there is a common thread through the whole record to where I get it. I get how this artist can move around in all these styles and feel fluid. I think Vampire Weekend is a great example of that. Heim is a great example of that where you can't really peg them as one thing. Yet the music speaks to all different genres.

Speaker 1 (01:55:52):

I love that. That's one of my favorite things about the modern era, especially because I come from the world of heavy music and I'm in that world because how things have turned out professionally. But I love music from all over. However, I remember how rough it was in the heavy music world to do stuff that was slightly off genre or at all out of left field. You'd get crucified. And that's really not there anymore. I mean, there's always going to be elitist or purists, but the genre wars I remember from even as late as 2007, but especially in the early two thousands and nineties, that's kind of come and gone. People just find bands they like. I love it.

Speaker 2 (01:56:41):

Yeah, I agree. And you look at younger people's playlists. I have a daughter and she's 18 and I see what she's listening to. I see what her friends are listening to and it's all over the map and it's all in the same playlist. And I think that's informing how music moves forward in the future. Where kids today, I hate that term. Kids today will.

Speaker 1 (01:57:13):

Well, because it's usually used in a negative context,

Speaker 2 (01:57:16):

Right? Right, exactly. But kids today don't see music in genre anymore. They just see it in what inspires them and what they get off on. So awesome. What makes them happy. And you couldn't ask for anything better than that. I don't

Speaker 1 (01:57:32):

Think. I have a lot of faith, man. I have a lot of faith in actually the Billie Eilish generation. I have a lot of faith in them. I think that they're growing up smart, they're growing up talented, and they're growing up free from a lot of the mental societal boxes that we put ourselves into in the seventies, eighties, nineties, even early two thousands.

Speaker 2 (01:57:59):

Yes, I a hundred percent agree. I hear some people saying, well, when's guitar going to be back on the radio? When's Rock going to come back? It's like it never went anywhere. It's just not how you remember it. It's taking on a new form. What is Rock Now Isn't Rock of the nineties, it's different. Just the way Rock in the nineties isn't rock in the sixties or

Speaker 1 (01:58:29):

Eighties or seventies.

Speaker 2 (01:58:30):

Exactly. It's like you have to embrace the fact that it's what we consider rock is becoming. And that's okay that that's part of the journey. If it went back to sounding like the nineties was like, well, what's the sense in that? Been there, done that. It's like, why are we shooting for that?

Speaker 1 (01:58:56):

We already had those great bands.

Speaker 2 (01:58:58):

Exactly. And it's that whole joke. It's like we already have a Led Zeppelin. We don't need another Led Zeppelin. We need something else.

Speaker 1 (01:59:09):

Well, I mean, bands are a product of their era, and the era is so much bigger than just the music and art in it. It's everything. And you can't recreate that. You can't recreate a time and place because you would have to recreate the historical moment that you're in. It's not going to work. You can't take that back.

Speaker 2 (01:59:31):

Right. Society informs the art. It's like where we are as a society is reflective in what people are trying to say creatively, or at least you hope so and so there's no way, it could be like the sixties or the seventies. It's like there's different issues out there. There's different things that people are responding to that they're mad about, that they want to speak out about or that that's good. And that all has to come into play to make things feel relevant that people can identify with. It's like great music has a universal truth to it. It has a universal understanding where somebody can listen to it and they can put themselves in that song and go, yeah, I get that. That's me. Or I see that. I understand that. And I think when you hit that is when you get something big, something that really catches on when you can speak that universal truth.

Speaker 1 (02:00:35):

I totally agree that side of it is universal, but I think the stylistic part of it is the product of the era you're in. Almost like the vehicle in which that a universal message is delivered in is the product of the era and it is what it is.

Speaker 3 (02:00:55):

Right.

Speaker 1 (02:00:55):

If you were in the 16 hundreds, you'd be working on Baroque music.

Speaker 3 (02:00:59):

Right, exactly.

Speaker 1 (02:01:01):

So Dave Schiffman, I think this is a good place to end this. It's been fantastic having you on. Thank you very much for coming on.

Speaker 2 (02:01:10):

Thank you for having me. It was a great conversation. Thank you very much.

Speaker 1 (02:01:14):

Yeah, it was a pleasure, man. You've been listening to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast. To ask us questions, make suggestions and interact, visit URM Academy and press the podcast link today.