JOHN MCLUCAS: Channeling Obsessive Drive, Scaling with Systems, Pivoting to Content Creation

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast, and now your host, Eyal Levi. I want to take a second to tell you about something that I am very excited about, and it's the URM Summit. Once a year, we hold an event where hundreds of producers from all over the world come together for four days of networking, workshops, seminars, and hanging out. This industry is all about relationships, and think about it, what could you gain from getting to personally know your peers from all over the world who have the same goals as you, the same struggles as you, and who can help, inspire you, motivate you, as well as become potential professional collaborators? This year's Summit is on November 9th through 11th at the Las Vegas Weston, which is just one block off of the strip, and it's going to be even bigger and better than ever. We're anticipating even more producers, plus a lineup of amazing guests like Jenz, Borin, Kris Crummett Machine Forrester, ve Michael Legian, Dave Ro, Billy Decker, Chris Adler, Mary Zimmer, Mike Mowry, Jesse Cannon Blasco, Jason Berg, Jessica Lohan, and Moore, and of course, our musical guest, the one and only api.

(00:01:18):

So get your summit tickets [email protected] and we will see you in Vegas. Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast. I am Eyal Levi, and with me today is someone who members of the URM community should be familiar with one of our own Mr. John McLucas, who is a musician, a producer, mix engineer, creative and social media content creator. Out of La John creates content for his own channels. Well, as for other companies and clients on top of managing an ever-growing production and mixing career. And the reason I have him on is because this is one of the URM members who I have seen really take ownership of their lives and just move forward. He has worked his ass off and suffered for his own success, and it is really starting to pay off. He's an inspiration to us all, and I thought it would be great for you guys to hear from him. So without further ado, here we go. John McLucas, welcome to the URM Podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:02:27):

Thank you so much for having me, man. I'm excited.

Speaker 1 (00:02:29):

You're welcome. You did the pre-interview with Ben. Shout out to Ben. If anyone doesn't know there's this wonderful human being named Ben Deal, who helps me prepare these without him, I would just be lost. No, I wouldn't be lost. That's

Speaker 3 (00:02:45):

Beautiful.

Speaker 1 (00:02:46):

But no, he helps me prepare for these, been really trying to step them up and need help, but I'm looking at something he wrote and it says, very stubborn hates losing.

Speaker 2 (00:03:02):

Oh, yeah, that's one way to put it. I guess I must've said it that way.

Speaker 1 (00:03:07):

No, you did say it that way. So let's talk about that. I hate losing too. I fucking hate it. Have you always been that way?

Speaker 2 (00:03:17):

Well, I'll say this, I think it started with board games. I think I've been traumatized by my older sister. She would manipulate me since when she was eight and I was five to pretty much lose by. She would kind of convince me that if she attacked me and made me lose, then she could catapult and get our dad in a board game. So then I would just kind of get manipulated into losing all the time. And I feel like that left an impression on me where it's just I don't like how it feels, and I just love the challenge of trying to beat somebody in any kind of game I play. And business is kind of the lifetime extension of a fun strategy board game. So I think it just somehow carried over and yeah, I guess in some way it's always been there. You can ask my school yard friends from way back.

Speaker 1 (00:04:05):

I can spot it in people how there's this I idea out there. It's pretty popular in modern business books, which I know you've read a bunch of and it's on podcasts a lot, but the whole fail often fail quick kind of mentality.

(00:04:24):

I kind of agree with that, but at the same time, encouraging people to fail, I don't like that, and I don't ever think it's a good thing. I mean, it means you fucking failed. And so I hate it, but I do understand that there's always a lesson to be learned with, I guess, metal Beard Club, which I had for a while. It didn't do well and I dropped it, and so that's a failure, and I hate failures, but at the same time, I hate it less than having something in my life that's not doing well. So I get it, but I feel like people should not, they shouldn't feel good about failing.

Speaker 2 (00:05:13):

Yeah, I agree with the sentiment in the sense of it's, I feel that the way some of those business books that you're referring to set the tone is like, don't worry about it. Just go be bad. I feel like it almost doesn't encourage an extreme hard effort at things sometimes, and it just kind of encouraging badness maybe in a way, which I guess I am definitely not a fan of either, because it's sucks and I don't like how it feels, and I always just want to do better, but I guess I understand it. But yeah, it's just like, why don't you want to win the first time? You should go into making a song or a record or a video hoping to have it be a number one billboard charting song or have it go viral or have it be the best or whatever it is. At least that's how I try to approach it. And I guess that's part of my stubbornness with just who I am.

Speaker 1 (00:06:13):

I mean, I do agree that it's not that much of a failure if you turn it into a lesson. So I guess you're kind of not failing if you do it that way. But I think that you shouldn't be going for a failure as if it's something good. The lesson is a byproduct and it's the silver lining, but in reality, I mean, whatever it is that you were trying to win at it, right? I mean, you didn't start something in order to have it fail. You started something in order to win at it, and if you didn't win at it, it means you did something wrong. And yes, it is good to learn from it, but I mean, you still fucked up.

Speaker 2 (00:07:02):

Yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:07:02):

That's all it is.

Speaker 2 (00:07:04):

Well, I will say one thing that I do really, really like about failing, although I don't enjoy the short term sting of it, is I've really enjoyed the arc of the last maybe six months of YouTube land where probably my first 20 videos, I got 80 subscribers, and I was just constantly being very bad at it, and it was very discouraging, but then that just made me very secretly bitter and want to work harder and learn and grow and get all those lessons.

Speaker 1 (00:07:34):

But that's not failing. Exactly. That's not failing.

Speaker 2 (00:07:36):

Yeah. Yeah. But those repeated failures, I've been able to turn 'em all into lessons, and it's, I guess part of the stay spongy being flexible kind of thing, where I love the analytical end of breaking down why something is what it is or isn't what it isn't. And that at least for me, I always try to at least take that out so it doesn't feel like a failure once I get over the cranky John that wants to win everything.

Speaker 1 (00:08:02):

Well, I think with YouTube especially, and really with anything, six months is not long enough to know. However, if you had been making videos consistently for three years and were getting no traction, then you could call it a failure in my opinion, but not getting much traction on your first 20 videos. I mean, that's par for the course. Remember Finn's first few videos, they were not that hot. I mean, the content was good, but the videos themselves were not that hot. And through making those videos, he got way, way better at it. I mean, it's the same with writing songs or doing mixes. I know that the best songwriters have say things like, you got to get a hundred to 150 songs deep before they even start turning into kind of, okay, you got to get the bad songs out of you. And it's the same thing with any creative pursuit. I think if you were to start a podcast tomorrow, not you, but because you already started one, but anyone listening, if you're to start a podcast tomorrow, don't be surprised if it sucks at first, but don't be discouraged either. If it sucks at first, that's how it's supposed to go. It will keep on sucking until you've made a few and figured out what you're doing. Again, though, if it's three years in and you've been doing it consistently and they still suck and nobody cares, well maybe you actually suck.

Speaker 2 (00:09:42):

Yeah. I think I've found for myself that it's a really difficult balance of measuring, trying to measure the right amount of macro when evaluating if something's good or not, because it takes a lot of self-awareness and a lot of balancing your own self-doubt and silencing that enough to look at it practically. And I think a lot of people seem to have problems with that. I can never say that for myself. It's hard to look at it and just be like, is this doing well? Or am I doing a bad job, or am I doing a good job? How do I evaluate that? And because it's so gray, everybody's path, like I talked, talking to a YouTuber just went full-time after eight years, and some people have done it after eight months. So it's a really difficult way to really difficult thing to evaluate. I see.

Speaker 1 (00:10:29):

Yeah. But the thing about that self-doubt is that, and I agree, it is a tough thing that you need to learn how to evaluate and live with, but it's not coming from a rational, logical place is coming from an emotional place and emotions don't care about what's objectively going on in the world. And so you could be at the top of your game, say, you could be, say you're an athlete on a winning team and you're making millions of dollars and one of the best in the world, you might still have doubts about how good you really are. You could be the best guitar player in the world or one of the best successful, legendary and still have doubts about how good you are. The doubts are just part of the human condition, and so they're not a good gauge for how well you're doing or not doing. And so it's good to learn to deal with them because even if your YouTube channel was to blow up and you became a millionaire from it, the doubts, it's not like that's a medical cure for doubt. It's you're still going to be human, and so you still got to be able to deal with that. So I actually think that now that you're, I still think you're at the beginning of your career too.

(00:12:04):

I think you're moving along and that's why we're talking on this podcast and stuff. You've made some very impressive moves and very quickly, but you're still at the beginning. You got years and years to go, but it's good to tackle how to deal with the doubt as early as possible because it's not going away. It'll always be there.

Speaker 2 (00:12:27):

Yeah. I remember having a conversation with Kane Chico about that at the very first summit, and he's like, yeah, I still feel like I, this is I guess more imposter syndrome, but he still has that very deep seated in him with the wall that I saw when I was at the Hideout, and it's like, yeah. I think for me that was a big point where I realized

Speaker 1 (00:12:44):

It's like, you mean the wall of platinum records?

Speaker 2 (00:12:47):

Yes, yes. The wall of platinum records that align his and his dad's hallway,

Speaker 1 (00:12:52):

The

Speaker 2 (00:12:53):

Fierce competition they're having. And it's like, yeah, alright, if Kane hasn't gotten rid of it yet, it's going to be around forever. And it's just like you said, it's learning to deal with it and not letting it control the decisions that I'm personally making with what I'm going to go hard, what I'm going to put effort or time into because that will get me nowhere.

Speaker 1 (00:13:15):

Well, I think at the beginning of your career, it's especially destructive to give too much power to doubt. Once you're already really successful, it may not have as much control over outcomes because you already have momentum. So say you're kain Chico and you doubt and you feel like an imposter and lots of successful people who imposter syndrome, but you still have momentum in real life. And so you may be feeling those doubts, but that next big client is coming as long as you put yourself out there. Or if you're a professional athlete, you have those doubts. You still do have that next game tomorrow as long as you don't injure yourself. But when you're at the very, very beginning and you might not have that gig yet, and things are still in the building process, in the foundational stages, if you give too much power or too much of a voice to that doubt, it could stop you from doing the things you need to do. So it's important you got to deal with that shit.

Speaker 2 (00:14:28):

And it's heartbreaking to see people struggle with it too because yeah, you're right. It's like you can definitely resile it when you have a list of accolades or things you can point to.

Speaker 1 (00:14:40):

Well, it's not that those things cure it, but they distract you. I remember reading an interview with Michael Brower once about getting fired off of some huge record, a really huge record, a record that people would cry if they got fired off of. They just didn't like his mix. And so in the interview it was like, were you bummed about it? And he was like, I didn't have time to be bummed. I started working on this other multi-platinum artist the very next day. So it's not that part of your brain shuts off, but it's that you have stuff going on that distracts you from it. If at the beginning of your career, those things don't exist in your life yet, so you don't have life to distract you from your own poisonous brain, so you have to figure out how to deal with it.

Speaker 2 (00:15:42):

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:15:42):

So how do you deal with it? Well,

Speaker 2 (00:15:46):

I think I've been lucky to have a good, okay, well, I guess I'll start with this is having good people around me and my girlfriend is an incredibly supportive and massive advocate for everything I do. And when she's seen me maybe having struggles mentally with how something's going, whether something like self-doubt, she's good at recalling the things that have happened in the last maybe six to 12 months if I'm too buried in the whole of my own thought circles to really have that perspective, she's really good at reshifting that back for me and just saying, well, look back to where, what is it? It's June. Okay, June, 2018 you were this, this, this, and then now look how far you've come. Really putting that and being able to remind me of that window. But I've gotten to the point now where I feel when I'm able to feel it starting again, I can remind myself six months ago, 12 months ago, where was I then two years ago is insane. The difference of where I was then and now is you wouldn't even think it's the same person and not, I was just talking, but just as a human in general,

Speaker 1 (00:17:01):

I'm glad that works for you

Speaker 2 (00:17:03):

And I know it doesn't for everybody.

Speaker 1 (00:17:04):

It doesn't work for me.

Speaker 2 (00:17:05):

Yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:17:06):

That's why I'm saying I'm glad that works for you. It does work for some people. Actually, when my girlfriend says that stuff to me, my brain is like, yeah, but the past does not equal the future. The past does not equal The future is a thing you tell yourself when you want to improve yourself. If you have fucked up at something or it's something that people who are trying to get off of alcohol or cigarettes or lose weight or whatever, tell themselves that just because I have fucked up at it all these times in the past, it doesn't mean I'm going to fuck up at it tomorrow. But if that's true, the opposite is true as well. Just because you did well in the doesn't mean you're going to do well in the future.

Speaker 2 (00:17:52):

No, that's super, super true. I guess you're right. It's no guarantee at all, but for me it's like

Speaker 1 (00:18:00):

If it helps, that's good.

Speaker 2 (00:18:01):

Yeah, because for me, I think more than the specific parts, it's like, okay, I'm able to, when I'm in a corner, I'm able to maneuver my way out of it. Historically, the last three to four years of freelance audio world, I've always found a maneuver, an angle, a creative new avenue or opportunity that's then blossomed into something bigger like that. Historically I've been able to do that and because that's a positive, I had maybe a more difficult time four weeks ago. So that was one thing where I had to sit down, I had to think about every time I've been able to maneuver out of it and what I did and then just kind of reapply that to this time. And yeah, I guess I'm fortunate that works for me because it's one of the more simple things, but it's worked so far, so I'm banking on that. Knock on wood,

Speaker 1 (00:18:51):

I'm glad everyone should find what works for them. Honestly, I haven't really found what works for me other than just finding something else to work on. For instance, I know that some people like what I call proof around them. I know Joel, my partner Joel, likes proof. So for instance, when we got the two comma award and Joey went to receive it, I didn't go, I don't give a fuck about having the plaque on my wall. Even though URM was my idea, I just didn't care. And I don't have anything on my walls. The couple plaques I do have for records are in storage, and I don't have anything where I live to indicate anything I've ever done. And I've thought about, well, maybe there's something to it. Maybe because Joel has lots of picture frames of different achievements over the years, just great stuff he's done. He's achieved a lot. And I guess if he ever doubts himself, which he doesn't, I don't think, or he doesn't tell me about it, that's for certain, but he can always look at what I just call a proof. So I've always wondered, should I start doing that? Should I frame my first record deal and put the two comma award up and just put the best nail the mix months, the big achievement ones like OPEC and lagon and all the different things over the years? Should I put that up and have that proof for when I feel doubt? But I don't know, I kind of feel like I won't give a shit.

Speaker 2 (00:20:44):

I mean, no, worst thing you got to lose is maybe an hour of time.

Speaker 1 (00:20:49):

No, no, it's a lot more time than that. You'd have to get everything framed, and since I haven't kept up with it, I'd have to locate all of it and it's a project and a half because I have not been collecting that stuff along the

Speaker 2 (00:21:03):

Way. Maybe it's a matter of just getting the things that are easy. It's like the test mix of if proof helps you just put a few of them up that are accessible or just hit up Russell Brunson and be like, yo, I want my plaque. And then put that up a couple of things up that are easy to craft and then see if it works. Because that's something I've thought about for myself too. I don't have any of that up for myself and nor do I have anything that hard to flex on a two comma club or the achievements that you guys have done massive stuff in business, but it's just having the little things and it keeps that constant reminder of stuff that you've done for me. It would work.

Speaker 1 (00:21:45):

You're also 15 years younger than me, I think.

Speaker 2 (00:21:48):

Exactly. You would have probably a room to fill with things on the wall compared to me.

Speaker 1 (00:21:54):

I'm sure that you have plenty of stuff relative to how long you've been at it. If you were to start now within 15 years, you probably would have quite an impressive proof room. And so you're saying that it doesn't matter if you don't have the same stuff we have, you're at a different point in your life, but what you do have, I'm sure is great relative to how long you've been at it. So even those things, they're meaningful. Of course they are.

Speaker 2 (00:22:22):

Yeah. I dunno the date in February, but I would just even make my own thing so I could hang it up just saying February, 2017, the month I went, going full time into audio, leaving the band that was super toxic to commit to myself and really invest in myself in a big way. And that was a massive leap relative to me and my experience. And the day that I got to leave living on the floor, that was a massive accomplishment for myself. And the last year was by far my biggest financial year, and I don't if I'd post that up. So clients come over and that feels weird, but I'll think of something, but I want to have maybe create some kind of cool timeline of

Speaker 1 (00:23:04):

The journey. Music clients do not want to know that you made any money. Trust me.

Speaker 2 (00:23:09):

Yeah, it's just a weird flex.

Speaker 1 (00:23:13):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:23:13):

But yeah, because it's awesome and I have so much stuff journaled and it'd pretty much just be going through that and making phrases and maybe create, I dunno, I got to create something cool to just reflect on it. And I'll say this too, I think the reason that the stuff works for me that does where it's reflect on how far you've come is I'm super, super lucky to have, I think the best parent duo that I've ever met or heard stories about,

Speaker 1 (00:23:44):

The best parent duo you've ever had.

Speaker 2 (00:23:45):

Yes, the best parents I've ever had in my life

Speaker 1 (00:23:49):

That's sick. Let them know they're the best parents you've ever had.

Speaker 2 (00:23:52):

Every time somebody hit, I definitely make a massive effort to let them know because they're truly stunning in every single way. And it's when people are like, oh, who do you credit? Or Who's your idol? It's like, honestly, my mom and my dad, I love John Bonham and music people, but I think the way I'm able to do a lot of the things mentally and push through it, it completely has to do with them. My dad doesn't care. He talks about it openly. So my dad's a recovered alcoholic, and that's the kind of situation where

Speaker 1 (00:24:31):

That's amazing. That's a huge accomplishment.

Speaker 2 (00:24:34):

Exactly. And it's one of those things where you have to look in the past and it starts micro where you might be on day two, and it's like you look back on your past of I did it day one, I can do it day two, and then now he's 30, not 30, 20.

Speaker 1 (00:24:51):

Your dad's 30 years old.

Speaker 2 (00:24:53):

That'd be impressive. He would've been six when he had me. I think

Speaker 1 (00:24:57):

That's a man's man right there.

Speaker 2 (00:25:01):

I think he's 22 years sober, and I'm sure the few times where he's maybe had a temptation or anything that it's the same thing where it's like at least that's what I looked at when I have maybe a darker mental time where it's looking back at what the journey's been and then realizing that I have the capacity to work through it and being able to, you

Speaker 1 (00:25:25):

Said 22 years.

Speaker 2 (00:25:26):

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:25:27):

So kind of right around you.

Speaker 2 (00:25:30):

Yeah. I mean, not to brag, but I think I might've played a part in that I was a pretty cute baby,

Speaker 1 (00:25:38):

Or maybe he realized that he needed to get his shit together. A dad?

Speaker 2 (00:25:43):

Yes.

Speaker 1 (00:25:44):

Well, then again, I don't know if you have any older siblings, so

Speaker 2 (00:25:47):

Oh, I do.

Speaker 1 (00:25:47):

He's talking on my ass.

Speaker 2 (00:25:48):

No, no, no. She's about two and a half years older than me, so thank

Speaker 1 (00:25:52):

You. Oh, well then there you go. So right around the time that he became a dad, he made the right choice,

Speaker 2 (00:25:59):

And it's after spending time with people and witnessing just too many fathers that have been in the same situation with substance abuse and go the other way and not try to not make that leap and be able to hold onto it and push through it. I can't obviously speak to the journey of overcoming substance abuse, but I see a lot of fathers that haven't taken that or a lot of parents, and it's just like, it's so deeply inspiring and he's channeled that all into running marathons, and he's run, I think 30 marathons now, and he's almost 60. He ran 10 marathons last year.

Speaker 1 (00:26:36):

I love your dad.

Speaker 2 (00:26:37):

I love my dad too. He's awesome.

Speaker 1 (00:26:40):

I think that's so cool because also, and he got his shit together around 40. I love that too, because it goes to show that it's never too late. I know a lot of people who they turn 30 and they're like, I'm old now. And it's like, no, you're not. And I know a lot of people in their forties now too, and some of them feel like all the good years are behind them or something. And I think that's a total crock of horse shit. They're only behind you if you decide they're behind you because there are 60 year olds who got their shit together at 40 who are now running marathons.

Speaker 2 (00:27:30):

Exactly.

Speaker 1 (00:27:31):

10 times a year.

Speaker 2 (00:27:33):

Yes. Well, he only did it for one year, but the fact that he did it

Speaker 1 (00:27:36):

Doesn't matter.

Speaker 2 (00:27:37):

Yeah, and you think about, just a quick aside on the logistics of it, because that's roughly every six weeks.

Speaker 1 (00:27:47):

It's crazy,

Speaker 2 (00:27:47):

And you don't even have time to properly do a full peaking cycle and then a taper because the recovery is anywhere from seven to 14 days and then you have a half prep. It is by far the best way you can channel obsessive tendencies.

Speaker 1 (00:28:02):

I completely agree with that. I'm not going to go into too much detail about it right now because I'm planning on going into detail about it publicly later, but I can tell you all for a fact that one of the best ways to change yourself if there's something negative that you do, is to take that same amount of energy. It takes energy to do destructive things like self-destructive things or bad behaviors, whatever it is. I mean, they take effort. If you're a smoker or if you gained a lot of weight or you're an alcoholic or a drug addict or just overspend or whatever it is, that takes effort. I mean, if you're going to gamble your money away, for instance, you have to make that money in the first place.

(00:28:54):

So it all takes effort and dedication because these problems too, that these self-created problems go on for years, sometimes decades. So I mean, it sounds funny to say, but that's dedication and hard work to get to that point where you're either really sick and you could die or you have no money left or whatever, as fucked up as it is to say it took a lot of energy and you were very dedicated and you went for it. And all that means is that if you were to take that same amount of energy and dedication and just obsessed on something great, imagine what you could do. So I actually think that addicts and fuckups have some of the most potential out of anybody because obviously they can go really, really far with something and they can stick to something, and whether it's good or bad is not the point. The fact is that they have it in them to go that far. So your dad is a perfect example, had it in him to be an alcoholic, which meant he had to spend money on it. He had to do it at the expense of relationships with people at the expense of his own health. Just think about all that goes into it,

(00:30:19):

And now he's running marathons.

Speaker 2 (00:30:21):

Yeah, it is. Yeah. I love that view on it, and I can definitely say that applies for myself as well, I guess. Well, I don't guess I really talk about this that much anymore on the internet. So there was a period in my life where I think I realized I have the same obsessive tendencies and the same hyper focus. That can go a very bad way if you put the effort in, like you said, into the wrong things. And there's a year of my life where I gained 50 pounds, which is not easy to do.

Speaker 1 (00:30:55):

I can tell you it takes a lot of hard work and dedication.

Speaker 2 (00:31:00):

It did take a lot of hard work and dedication and a lot of candy. That was my thing. And then I became equally as obsessed when I was between 18 and 19. You could see if I showed you my senior year high school ID card and then my first year at community college ID card, it's like, that's probably not the same person, but it was. And when I hit 200 on the scale, since I'm a average smaller bone human, that's quite a bit for me. And I saw that and it flipped some kind of switch, and I became instantly obsessed with losing weight and fitness, and then I got way too skinny. My grandma was worried about me, kind of skinny, but not like an Italian grandma where they worry if you're too skinny if your stomach doesn't, if you don't have a big stomach. I was fairly emaciated, but then, so I've been working through that whole thing to find balance in I think this natural mind of mine that's incredibly obsessive and focused by nature. But now my audio and music has kind of become the place. I've channeled all that and I'm trying to have my marathon equivalent.

Speaker 1 (00:32:16):

Yeah, that's great. I guess since we're on the topic, so I can say that, I mean, everybody knows that I put on a weight around 2014, but I've already lost more than half of what I put on, which is a lot.

Speaker 2 (00:32:33):

Dude, that's killer.

Speaker 1 (00:32:34):

The actual amount I'm not going to get into right now, I'm going to about it later, but it's a lot. It's like a ridiculous number. It was in a dark place and it happened, but it didn't happen overnight. It happened with a lot of effort and the way that I turned it around and almost half of it's gone. It's going great, but I got fucking obsessed. I know people say gradual this, gradual that, sure, I get it. But I became obsessed with tracking everything, like tracking everything and working out multiple times a day and just macronutrients, micronutrients, everything, all as I was about gaining weight because that's how my brain works. My brain does not go halfway on things. It's not casual. So I have it in me that whatever I get into good or bad, I'm going to go all the way. And when I realized that, it was like, well, what I need to do is get obsessed and I need to get obsessed about being healthy. That's the only way I can't do it any other way. So that's actually where I got my idea about that addicts and people who have fucked up their health or whatever, actually have some of the greatest potential out of people anywhere because I am living proof. Well, I'll publish the numbers later on once I hit this certain milestone, but it's ridiculous. Seriously ridiculous. And yeah, it was through getting obsessed

Speaker 2 (00:34:32):

And

Speaker 1 (00:34:32):

The same amount and that same amount of energy basically.

Speaker 2 (00:34:37):

Yeah, I mean, well first off, congratulations. I love hearing the turnaround stories and I'm excited for you to go in depth into it whenever you decide to, but, and it's

Speaker 1 (00:34:46):

Probably going to be within a month or something. There's a certain milestone that's going to look really good in a photo, so I'm waiting till

Speaker 2 (00:34:56):

That. Yeah, no, that's awesome. I can't wait. Yeah, and it's great that it makes sense why you had such an articulate answer about the, you talked about with addicts and people who channel that hard work and dedication into the wrong space. And then yet I had the same thing where I went so crazy with macros and the tracking. But the thing is too, it informs you really well about being able to eyeball a plate of food and know the general calorie amount. You can look at how shiny it is to gauge how much oil there might be in it and say it looks like a teaspoon or a tablespoon, or okay, that's the size of three fingers of chicken, that's about four ounces or

Speaker 1 (00:35:39):

Well, you just get in tune with it. And just like anything else, if you play guitar for eight hours a day, you get in tune with that too. And same with the same audio for instance. I know that when doing mixed crits, some people who get mixed crits, they're not happy with, don't believe that we can give them an accurate crit that quickly, but when you do something intensely for years, your brain just gets in tune with it. You just know. And so yeah, you're right. When you're tracking all that stuff with your food and these lifestyle changes, you do reach a point where it starts to become part of how you think and part of how you are,

Speaker 2 (00:36:32):

And then that's when you know you're onto something.

Speaker 1 (00:36:34):

Yeah, absolutely. So I take it that same amount of energy that you put into dropping the 50, I have noticed that you have started bulking up muscle wise and I know how intensely you've gone after your career. So that just more of a, I wouldn't say scientific proof, but more of a proof point to me of that. What I'm saying is accurate is that people who do that, if they just redirect that energy, they can do some great things. So you have it in you to get obsessed with things, and you have it in you to suffer for things that you get obsessed with because gaining weight is suffering and it is pure suffering, so you know how to do it. So now it makes sense about you sleeping on your floor and being cool with that and putting yourself through hell to allow your career to start flourishing. It's already in you.

Speaker 2 (00:37:41):

Yeah. Hey, and then that just speaks to, that's a great thing to remind myself of when I'm feeling any self-doubt is it's like this has been time and time again. I've been able to show my ability to sacrifice for the stuff I focus in and yeah, you said it better than I'm going to say it, so I won't even try.

Speaker 1 (00:37:58):

It's kind of funny, the first time I thought about it when I realized that I told somebody and they thought I was kidding, I've got a fucked up sense of humor. So I was looking at somebody and I was like, look at how dedicated they are as someone who was severely overweight, and I was like, that is dedication. And someone was like, stop judging. I was like, no, I'm not kidding. That's dedication. It hit me. It was like anyone who can do that can do a whole lot more than that if they just were to focus properly. So thanks, dad. Well, what's interesting to me too is that they say that alcoholism can sometimes be hereditary. So sounds to me like you got the bug too, the addictive bug, but you put it to use in a proper way.

Speaker 2 (00:39:02):

Yeah, yeah, I would definitely say I have the addictive and obsessive bug. It definitely manifested itself with food in an interesting way, and it's probably a reason. I can't say I've had any issues with substances massively, but there's a reason I avoid it almost always overall on top of I could either drink tonight or I could work and I'd rather do something fun in my business, but on top of that it's probably best I avoid almost entirely.

Speaker 1 (00:39:33):

Well, you know that and you have the thing to be obsessed over.

Speaker 2 (00:39:36):

Exactly.

Speaker 1 (00:39:37):

Yeah. So you need that. That's the thing is if you have that in, you need something to be obsessed with, or if you don't, it's you're going to leave it up to your emotions to choose. And that's not always a good thing because nope, emotions, they're not always your friend and they should not be running. They should not be running the ship that's like letting your dog drive your car or something.

Speaker 2 (00:40:10):

Honestly, that's a fantastic and surprisingly accurate analogy for how absurd it seems in my head, but it's very, very true.

Speaker 1 (00:40:18):

So let's talk a little bit about your obsessiveness for work. What's your normal day?

Speaker 2 (00:40:25):

Alright, let's break this down. I've been shifting a lot into doing more remote work, so mostly remote production and mixing for primarily pop music. So I'm very fortunate in the sense of having a good amount of flexibility when it comes to timing. That being said, I do like being up between five and 6:00 AM It just feels nice getting started early. I feel like I'm ahead of everybody and then that makes me feel, I already feel like I'm winning if I'm up earlier than people because it goes back to that. So I'll usually do that, but I'm at the gym probably five days a week, so I'll go bang that out. I'm really into power lifting, so I'm actually in the middle of a peaking phase that I'm running a few times before I meet in September. That's kind of a bit more laborious than I'd like, but I love heavy things a lot. It's a trade-off for happiness and being a calm, happy boy for podcast interviews like this instead of a rageful angry boy. So I'll do that, come back. I have a tradition of making myself breakfast.

Speaker 1 (00:41:29):

And how many hours

Speaker 2 (00:41:31):

At the gym?

Speaker 1 (00:41:31):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:41:32):

The workout itself is maybe an hour or less, but it's honestly more the warming up for a heavy set of squats is probably 20 minutes between the stretching a little cardio warmup, warmup sets, active release therapy, it's a whole ordeal. So just the entire event can be two hours door to door. But again, it's something that brings me a ton of happiness and I need that in order to enjoy my work day. So I think for me, it's worth the time trade off, not the most

Speaker 1 (00:42:07):

Man. When I told someone I know about how many hours a day I put into it and they're like, how do you find the time? It's like, first of all, I make the time, but second of all, you don't understand how much good it's doing for everything else. Everything else is so much more efficient now because of the exercise. Yes, it's the most important thing I can do every day if I want to have a good

Speaker 2 (00:42:40):

Day. And I think people don't, if they're not in it like that, it's hard to understand it because they just look at it like time gone, time in versus time out versus money out or whatever. But it's like, yeah, I couldn't function nor could most anybody who works out regularly maybe before their workday, that is an integral part to being a sharp business person and to being focused. It's hard for me to take days off because of that. I want to go yank on a bar or I don't know, I want to do something.

Speaker 1 (00:43:14):

Just out of curiosity, do you sleep well?

Speaker 2 (00:43:17):

Oh, I sleep like a baby.

Speaker 1 (00:43:19):

Have you ever, I mean you always,

Speaker 2 (00:43:21):

Yes. I've slept through fire alarms and thunderstorms and yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:43:26):

So even before you went all in exercise wise,

Speaker 2 (00:43:31):

I don't quite remember my sleeping patterns during my heavier times because I kind of gained it so fast and then lost it so fast. I don't quite remember. But I mean historically I've always been a super heavy sleeper, and that's another big priority too. I need my seven hours if I'm going to do a good workday at all.

Speaker 1 (00:43:54):

Got it. Okay, cool. So gym's done. Then. What

Speaker 2 (00:43:57):

Gym's done? I have a little breakfast tradition I like to make myself that's reminds me of home, makes me feel happy and makes some eggs and toast and maybe watch a YouTube video or something, chill and then I'll jump right into it. Usually I'm working by eight or so, maybe earlier if I'm up super early that day and I'll start typically, I mean in a macro, it's pretty much that till dinnertime. I'll have a lunch break, but I'll stop when my girlfriend gets back. I work out of my living room, which is any photos you see of me in a chair at a desk, it's my living room. I'm just very good at taking photos of it. But I'll pretty much work my waking hours besides dinner with my girlfriend and maybe catching up and we'll cook together because that's another big thing that I enjoy.

(00:44:45):

Not like I'm super dope at it, but just I enjoy the world of food and it's like mixing with your mouth and obviously I like food, so that's pretty much it. But I'll usually do a round of updating my HubSpot and my projects and any leads I need to follow up with then dive into whatever I've done my best to prioritize needs to happen that day. So I'll usually sit down and look at my ongoing tasks and then I'll move up the ones that I know I can accomplish today, number them and then just bang 'em out in the order that they're in. So I try to really streamline it so I don't have to think too much about what's next and just do what I've told myself it's time to do, if that makes sense.

Speaker 1 (00:45:32):

Just going to take a quick break and I promise it's going to be quick, but it's important. I need to remind you guys, so please forgive me. This episode is brought to you by the URM Summit, four days of networking workshops, seminars, and hanging out with your URM friends and dozens of the industry's best pros. It's November eight through 11 at the Las Vegas Weston and tickets are available right [email protected]. Alright, back to the episode. It does make sense. And when do you or make time for the big picture stuff? And the reason I ask that is I feel like sometimes to-do lists are great tactical tools as in you want to stay on target all day long and get shit done. It's great to have a to-do list, but to-do lists are notorious for sometimes helping people waste a bunch of time if it's not built around an outcome list because you need to have big high level outcomes. You're looking for that. The to-do list works with, you could make a to-do list and it'd be 20 items that don't move the needle. So it's important to always have that to-do list, be built off of the outcomes you want to create in your life. So where does that fit in?

Speaker 2 (00:47:04):

I have, I guess my macro or long-term vision projects that aren't necessarily going to bring the dollars but are long-term things I've been working on in a few different project cards, and so I'll have some tasks within that as next steps when I have time, but I intentionally try to schedule myself because as you know, there is just so much variable with things. So I always try to leave time probably one to two hours. So for example, I know today I have till my girlfriend's going to be back at five 30 and we're going to go for a walk and then make this delicious dinner. So I know I've scheduled my day out to be done by about four with what's left, and then I have that leisure to go to the things that I want to work towards, and I don't have anything more effective than saying whichever one I'm most excited about chipping away at.

Speaker 1 (00:48:00):

I mean, that's fair enough as long as you have a list of what they are.

Speaker 2 (00:48:07):

Exactly. Yeah, because usually I can't do more than one or two things because a lot of times it also has to do with maybe learning something. So I might not even do one bullet point because it might be like how to do a thing in after effects and I could spend time searching for the right thing or trying it and I suck at it and I, oh, there's an Adobe preference, I screwed up an hour later. But just as long as I spend some time on it, then I at least feel good about it. But yeah, so I try to intentionally under schedule my deliverables. Somebody's waiting for this email, somebody's waiting for this mix, somebody needs these files, this instrumental version needs to be rebalanced. I try to set the expectation for the client upfront to allow me to not be so bogged down in the business so I can work on the business at least an hour a day, occasionally life. So I don't have time, but I try to spend a little bit of time every single day on those things that are maybe 6, 12, 2 year goals and moving that forward.

Speaker 1 (00:49:09):

At what point in the day do you do the mundane maintenance stuff? And what I mean by that is logistics, planning, emailing people the stuff that you have to do, but that doesn't require your most intense, highest level thinking.

Speaker 2 (00:49:28):

Yeah, yeah, no, that is a large chunk of the day and

Speaker 1 (00:49:33):

For me, and it can become too large if you're not careful

Speaker 2 (00:49:37):

For me, I'll try to bang some of it out on the elliptical. I've kind of started getting into this routine of if it's not a leg day, because I don't want to over fatigue myself on bench days. If I have two days before my next squat or deadlift session, I'll just jump on the elliptical for maybe 20, 30 minutes and bang a lot of that out on my phone just because it gets me steps and it gets me a little health benefit of moving more, which I know is a problem for all of our lives. So I'll try to do some of it then, but oddly enough, I think most people I've heard don't recommend this is I'll tend to finish it or clean it up usually first thing when I sit down, because for me personally, there's usually at least one email I need to get back to.

(00:50:22):

And if I know it's sitting in the inbox, then it's kind of hard for me to start the day. And I like the feeling of cleaning up that slate and doing HubSpot follow-ups for the day, updating the projects, like, okay, are we in mixed notes? Have they approved the mixed notes? Where are we booked or delivered or blah, blah, blah. I like doing all of that so then I know I can ignore my email for the rest of the day and come back in the evening. So I like to do it in spurts. So a morning one when I sit down and then an evening one to clean up any responses I got throughout the day or any new day inquiries.

Speaker 1 (00:51:04):

I don't know how I feel about that. I understand what you're saying completely. I also have the urge to do it first thing because I hate having things hanging over my head. It helps me focus to not have things hanging over my head. But the thing that always worries me about doing that stuff first is there's nothing like those first few hours as far as how powerful your contributions to something can be. Like those first few hours are where you have the most brainpower. And so it kind of bums me out to use those on email for instance. But then again, it's hard to really focus if I know that I owe somebody an answer to something.

Speaker 2 (00:52:02):

Well, and I think your inbox is far more full than mine, so I think there's, for you to sit down and commit to, I'm going to clear my inbox. It's been maybe 18, 24 hours. That's a much more laborious chore than I think it is for me. But I'm going to guess there is that point where it's more than a few I have to get through and I'll probably switch to doing the same thing as you.

Speaker 1 (00:52:29):

Well, I don't know which one I go back and forth.

Speaker 2 (00:52:32):

Oh, okay. Yeah, I would like to live

Speaker 1 (00:52:35):

In a world world. It's a question I haven't answered for myself yet. I haven't figured out what's better yet.

Speaker 2 (00:52:41):

I think before being able to do that, I have to mentally practice not responding to my emails earlier. As lame as that sounds, I think I would have to train myself incrementally. I know I would stick to it if I did it incrementally. So back at the gym, me shower at Eaton by eight and then say, I'm not going to open my email till nine today and then work for an hour open my email. Then I'll be able to negotiate with myself like that and be like, it's nine. It's not, it's the morning for most of my clients. And then I can slowly push that back like an hour every few days, and I think my brain will mentally be okay with it until I would get to a lunchtime, but I would literally have to train myself and talk myself into it.

Speaker 1 (00:53:24):

Well, this takes training. This one way that I've done tends to be what I feel is best for me, and maybe this'll help you. Again, like I said, I've got that urge first thing to get connected because there's just so much shit going on, but it's a trap. It's a fucking trap. So what I have found is best is to accept that I want to get connected and check it over and make sure there's no fires to put out. Make sure that there's nothing fucked up that happened that I need to deal with right then and there. So just look for urgent important things that may have come up overnight or that have to be done and knock those out and then do the rest later. Yeah, and sometimes it's zero things. Sometimes there's zero fires, but if I know that I feel much better sometimes it's just like this person needs this answer or a project can't move forward without me just sending this one email or whatever. Or maybe somebody went fucking psycho in the group overnight and I need to deal with it, but then I got rid of those two urgent things and now I can work on planning something that will actually move the needle.

Speaker 2 (00:54:53):

You know what? I'm going to try that this week or the next seven days. Give it a shot. The weeks, at least when we're recording, this is Thursday, so I'll try that for the next seven days. Go big fire only save the rest for lunchtime and see how that goes.

Speaker 1 (00:55:09):

Yeah, let me know because kind of the best of both worlds, you can take care of the stuff that is actually urgent. So if you do that, you don't have an excuse to really be worried about your email anymore because you took care of the shit that's really urgent, and then you can take that peak productivity part of the day and put it towards something important.

Speaker 2 (00:55:42):

Yeah, I love that. Simple, elegant, solves the problem. I'm doing it. I'll text you in a week.

Speaker 1 (00:55:48):

Yeah, yeah. I want to know how it goes. Let's talk about delegating. So I know that shout out to Steven Ward. Do you guys still work together?

Speaker 2 (00:55:58):

We don't work together. We used to, which is pretty much every single day

Speaker 1 (00:56:02):

He leveled up, right? He got a

Speaker 2 (00:56:05):

Gig making content for neural DSP.

Speaker 1 (00:56:08):

Yeah, fucking awesome.

Speaker 2 (00:56:09):

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:56:09):

So for anyone who's not familiar, Steven Ward's also a URM member. You guys met at the first summit and then Steven moved to LA to work with you and you guys worked together and he was kind of your assistant for a while.

Speaker 2 (00:56:26):

Yeah. So first summit late 2017.

Speaker 1 (00:56:30):

Yeah, December, 2017.

Speaker 2 (00:56:32):

Then in March we were on a group Skype call or Facebook call, and as people were logging out, I was like, oh, hey, forgot to get this vocal tuned. I need it by five tonight. It was noon. So I asked if he was free and he was. So he tuned that up and that was kind of the beginning of us working together, was just right place, right time, and he was able to knock it out because my previous assistant, I retired my relationship with him shortly before that. Then from there, that August, I asked him to move down to work for me full-time, helping me figure out the content world on top of doing audio assistant. So at that point he'd been doing my audio instrument editing, vocal tuning and editing session prep for me, for all the stuff I was doing. So then I asked if he wanted to add the visual end, and at that point he'd only picked up a camera for a couple of covers, but I was like, you know, could figure things out. You do good, you'll figure it out. And so we did, and I was able to bring him down here, and then I think about four, six weeks ago, he got picked up by neural. So it's been really cool to see that path of him growing and just crushing it.

Speaker 1 (00:57:47):

That's really, really awesome. So in terms of how you, I guess, delegate work to someone that's working for slash with you, what kind of tasks are you looking for someone in that position to do, and what are you looking for and why? Have an assistant,

Speaker 2 (00:58:15):

I mean, okay, so there's a lot of good things to unpack. So there's the technical end of being proficient in the skills such, which is typically going to be the editing, tuning 90% of the work is the vocal tuning and editing for the stuff I produce because it's lots of vocal layers. Everything else is already is from midi, so I am just committing it. And then he's just color coding and organizing. So besides the technical stuff, which is kind of assumed, and then he was doing photos and video for me. But beyond that, I think being able to, this is so cliche, but it's like to be detail oriented. But for my case, that was really important because I took the time to create systems and checklists to where there's not really any excuse to have something wrong unless I forgot. So for example, it's like I want my bus, then my master, then my effects. I have my order of stuff and my colors that I like. So I've had a few people apply and give me green effects buses, and there's really no excuse at that point when I said purple and it was written. So somebody who's kind of,

Speaker 1 (00:59:26):

Wait a second.

Speaker 2 (00:59:27):

Oh, go ahead.

Speaker 1 (00:59:27):

You gave specific instructions written down and they did it differently. Was it because of incompetence or just they didn't care or what? I'm curious about that because I actually just did a podcast earlier with Steve Evetts. We were talking about assistance and how one of the big problems is when they don't listen to specific instructions and just want to do things their way. And we were talking about John Douglas and why he's so great and how he has worked for and works with several different amazing producers. And when editing drums, for instance, some will say, I want it natural but tight, or I want this totally grided or whatever it is. And he does it exactly to spec every time, which is why he keeps getting hired. I'm curious, why do you think that person didn't do something as simple as color code the way you wanted?

Speaker 2 (01:00:27):

I mean, I honestly just think they didn't want to have the job that bad because what I think is so nice about having it all written out and so systemized is the fact that it makes it really clear off the bat who's going to be a good fit or not. Because anybody who would give me the purple, the green effects buses, when it's like page one, it's like, here's the basics. If you can't get the page one basics down, then you're not that serious about the position. And I guess it is just laziness if it was me, but again, I think obsessive tendencies, all the stuff we talked about, I would probably rego through the checklist twice at the end, make sure it's right, send it to a buddy to be like, Hey, look at this list. And then look at the session, is it, did I do it? Tell me what I missed before sending it back. Because if you're earlier in your career and you're like looking for opportunities, then you'd think you have three times as many things to prove to try to get your foot in the door because it's fierce competition and it just has something so trivial. Slip is just mind blowing to me that you would even apply if you wouldn't color code something so basic properly. Yeah, I dunno. It kind of blows me away.

Speaker 1 (01:01:52):

It blows my mind. I've seen stuff like that lots of times, and when I brought it up to certain people, they've been like, what's the big deal? It's like, what do you mean? What's the big deal? I asked for it a certain way. That's the big deal, the end.

Speaker 2 (01:02:12):

Well, and I think Joey, when I had a conversation with Joey, he was telling me it's like what he's looking for in assistant, which I thought was really good, is it's your job is to make my life easier and to think about how can I solve? I mean, I'm literally writing down a list of how you solve the problem I'm looking to hire you for, but it's like you're there to solve problems and to make it such a seamless integration for yourself into the process. So giving kickback on that is really mystifying, especially when it's something that's not really subjective. It's like, bake me a cake and then it's like, oh, here's a cookie. It's like, no, bake me a cake. I ask for a cake. I like cookies. Cool. And now that I have rapport with some of the new guys I'm working with, it's like they will give me ideas and I might be receptive to them or not, but it's like especially starting off, it's like, no, I need to know that you can follow a checklist and follow a cooking recipe before it's time to get all crazy with it.

Speaker 1 (01:03:16):

Absolutely. So outside of audio, what is it that you were delegating or are delegating?

Speaker 2 (01:03:23):

So outside of the audio stuff, I've been delegating the video editing, which I don't have any really crazy edits in the video content I make for my own personal channel or honestly the stuff I've been doing for other companies, it's pretty cut and dry. As far as the technical aspect, it's mostly just chopping and cross fades. And for my stuff it gets a little goofy, but I usually just say, just have fun with it. I'm not here to roast you because you chose a filter that had a little more CPF for a joke and I was thinking, but that stuff, I also have a checklist for as far as the process Steven used. So he helped me develop that. So when he left, I could hand it off to my new editor. I dunno how to say his name right. I'm going to do a really bad job. Do Vermeer va. He goes by Dobbs Va Sev. He's a URM member who moved from Bulgaria to the uk. He lives just outside of London I believe now. So he's been doing that for me. So I also delegate out my video editing and that's about it. He does it for a few of the different companies I've done video content for. But again, it's all very basic. It's mostly edit, chopping and aligning and title cards.

Speaker 1 (01:04:35):

That's cool. So I think what's really important here for people listening to get is the thing about the checklists, one of the best ways to train people is to spell things out as detailed and as simply as possible, which sometimes sounds like two completely opposite things,

(01:04:59):

But a checklist makes it super easy because it's just go down the list. Another thing which you mentioned, which is super important is that by having an actual checklist, it makes it to where it's a system that can be passed on to another person because no assistant is forever. An assistant by nature is a temporary job. Unless you're paying them $200,000 a year or something and you're some high powered CEO, your assistant is not going to last forever at most, a year or two, any more than that. And you got to wonder what's going on. I think

Speaker 2 (01:05:41):

Yes,

Speaker 1 (01:05:42):

Because the best assistants tend to have goals of their own that don't involve being an assistant. So it's important to take the time that when you're training them, you're also creating a system that can be passed onto the next person. Another thing that we do, which has yielded fantastic results, is just in addition to checklists, screen cap videos, showing exactly how to do stuff. I mean, posting a URM podcast for instance is like 57 steps. It is, and it's something that I could do and it isn't a checklist, but that's not quite enough. If I really want someone new to get it, a video walkthrough plus the checklist, there's no way to fuck that up. If you fuck that up, you're not paying attention.

Speaker 2 (01:06:39):

No. And I have that as well with built into the checklist is some embedded YouTube videos.

Speaker 1 (01:06:44):

Fantastic.

Speaker 2 (01:06:45):

Yeah, just long and loose. I just kind of talk through it and it's very candid and hanging out with people and that's super, super important. But I'm thinking too, for people who are listening, who if you're coming into a situation, and maybe because I've been in a situation where I came in, this is probably three years ago at this point, to a studio as a post-production house, and he wanted to show me all these things, so I took notes, but on top of that, I just asked if I could prop my phone up to film everything he was doing. I mean, first he said yes, but of course he was also pleasantly surprised because it was taking a double initiative to create that system myself,

(01:07:29):

Because I was honestly just honored that he gave me personal time to explain the thing. And I'm like, well, I better make it count. So I filmed it and I was able to go back and he never had to tell me how he liked to do dialogue automation, printing that across one scene with Approach tools, hd key command again. And that became super valuable for me doing dialogue mixing and other stuff because he knew that I took that initiative. So I think there's a massive white space if you work for a lot of engineers who may not have these deep systems in place, you can be the one to create the system. And I would probably maybe slightly tear up if somebody came in and I was explaining it and they're like, let me film this. I'm taking notes. I'm going to put this all together into a nice checklist so I can make sure I crush it. I'd probably, it'd either kiss him or cry, I don't know,

Speaker 1 (01:08:21):

Or cry while you kiss him.

Speaker 2 (01:08:23):

Either way, it's going to be a good partnership. That's all that matters. The kiss will seal it.

Speaker 1 (01:08:28):

So do you have these for everything?

Speaker 2 (01:08:30):

I mean just for the stuff that I've been delegating, I have a new one that I haven't made the checklist for, but I've made the videos to create the little short meme unified video pieces from the skits of my YouTube videos. So I've made the video for it, but I need to create the checklist and then delegate that to Dobbs so you can get started on it because it's a thing where it's just, again, I'm swimming in it and I'm trying to figure out what's the easiest, the lowest hanging fruit with delegating as possible.

Speaker 1 (01:09:02):

Got it. So why video? I mean, you came to URM for audio, right?

Speaker 2 (01:09:11):

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:09:12):

What's going on? Why video? Where did this come from and why are you going hard on it?

Speaker 2 (01:09:17):

Alright. There's a lot of facets to this answer. So I think over the last two to three months for me has been kind of a culmination, I think of the last two years internally as this journey. I think of, again, because so young, and this is also new, I think this is all very much, I'll always be learning, but I think I'm learning even more about myself, especially in the last six months about what my core values are as far as how I want to sculpt my day-to-day and my life. And that sounds super woo woo, but it has a, I'm getting there and within the last couple of years, obviously I've literally lived in a box, but figuratively, the audio life is very box based. And even having clients over, it's still kind of very cooped up and isolated. And a lot of, as I've shifted more to doing more remote work because it's more profitable, and of course I'm going to optimize my business and I have the demand, I've realized that there's this, I have this desire to connect with people in a way, in a very day-to-day kind of constant fashion.

(01:10:32):

And it's something that I know dedicating my life to mixing and production will not be able to fulfill in the way that I'm looking for.

Speaker 1 (01:10:41):

No, it won't. Even if you're doing mainly production and not mixing, you're still only with a very small group of people all day every day.

Speaker 2 (01:10:53):

Exactly. And it's like even the time that's social, there's countless more hours spent tinkering with serum or trying to flip the flippy flip, trying to come up with new things. That's just part of the world of being a top class music producer and mixing engineer. That's an unavoidable reality of it is the cave life. And the cave life I've found has been really difficult for me because I really, really enjoy connecting with people. And I think the podcast has been part of that started almost a year ago. And two Mondays, it'll be my 52nd episode of uploading every single week. Congrats. A full 365. Thank you. And that was kind of the first step in that journey of realizing how much I value connecting with people. It's through digital mediums, but podcasting, going live on Facebook, creating the videos and having conversations in the comments, even if they're dissenting opinions, still having thoughtful conversation and of course deleting ones where they just say very derogatory things about my guests or about myself. But 99% of the time it's very positive and I've really enjoyed and valued that connection with people. And so that's honestly been the macro shift that's kind of spawned this.

Speaker 1 (01:12:19):

Let me just say that honestly, with the podcast, one of my favorite things about doing my podcast, and I'm thinking about starting a second one too, just because I like this so much, is, well, first of all, I've made friends, I've made actual friends from it. I oftentimes talk to people who I've never spoken to before in my life, but it's also sometimes the only time that I get to actually catch up with some of my close friends, which is kind of weird because we're catching up in public, but there used to be a time not too long ago, but still those days are dead where you would catch up with your friends on the phone

(01:13:02):

And talk for a few hours. That's kind of dead. That doesn't really happen anymore. At least I don't do it anymore. I don't talk on the phone with friends anymore and just have long ass conversations. This doesn't happen. It used to happen. It doesn't anymore. But podcasting has allowed me to have that again in my life. And I don't live the cave life like I used to, but I'm still by myself a lot working on stuff. Even on these trips, we go on trips all the time for nail the mix, but I'm not always at the studio doing work. For instance, today I'm in Pennsylvania, we're shooting a fast track, but today I've been in my hotel room all day long working on stuff. But we are having an hour and a half long conversation. Had another 90 minute long conversation with Steve Evetts earlier. And it's cool. I get to have long deep conversations with smart people and it makes what I do a lot more pleasurable and it kind of keeps me from going crazy.

Speaker 2 (01:14:14):

Exactly. And that's a very similar sentiment to what the joy and excitement that I've found through. I mean, I guess I would say creating content overall. But yeah, it's like that connection is really nice and it's something that's much needed. And maybe an old fart might say, well, it's not the same, but it's like it fulfills the need I have for it, so

Speaker 1 (01:14:36):

It's not the same, but it doesn't matter what you get out of it is the same.

Speaker 2 (01:14:41):

Exactly. And that's been kind of a difficult journey because for me internally, because part of me, it says, you've worked so hard. I think about all the things that I've had to sacrifice in order to make a sustainable income and to get to the point where I could hire on somebody full time. And then all of this stuff I've been through to get me to this point, to then pivot. But I think my world will likely be filled with every couple of years having some massive revelation of something else that I truly enjoy. And then it's deciding if that's going to bring me more fulfillment. And if I have the, because this is an important part, if I have the financial means and the time to be able to put into it, because really in the last six months is when my audio business has gotten to the point where I don't need to talk about it on the internet to have my clients and referrals chugging along so I can just keep getting the referrals. And it's like, all right, cool. This is going this great. Now this is fulfilling a lot of things that I need in my weekly to monthly life, but now there's this need I have and I'm not going to be totally fulfilled by doing that in audio. So the video's really a natural progression and it's sprung into some surprising business opportunities because I think my personality plays well on camera, and it's kind of been like this pleasant side business almost that started.

Speaker 1 (01:16:13):

That's great. Let's talk about podcasting for a second.

Speaker 2 (01:16:16):

Let's go.

Speaker 1 (01:16:16):

So 52, let's great. I'm sure you've noticed that almost everyone at some point makes a post on Facebook or something that's thinking about starting a podcast or let's start a podcast or it's almost become the modern, let's start a band.

Speaker 2 (01:16:39):

Yes, I would agree.

Speaker 1 (01:16:41):

And I have had quite a few friends who have talked about doing it and maybe have done one or two episodes and then never done more. So first of all, congrats on actually making it to 52 because most people don't make it past three, but I'm talking about this right now for people who think they want to do a podcast. How long did it take for you to get comfortable with your podcast and for people to start listening?

Speaker 2 (01:17:18):

The comfortable thing?

Speaker 1 (01:17:20):

Yeah, comfortable talking for that long.

Speaker 2 (01:17:22):

Yeah, it took probably for me anywhere, maybe like eight to 12 episodes

(01:17:29):

To feel comfortable, but I don't do, my episodes aren't nearly as long as these ones, so I think that would be a much longer curve. But a kind of different aside would also be when I was young 10, I actually got really into magic and performing closeup card tricks and coin tricks and stuff. So I have, between that and being the business person for bands, I've had some experience like performing in front of people and putting on shows in my driveway and things of that nature. I'm used to kind of talking in that performance sense or being maybe a little more aware of how I poised myself.

Speaker 1 (01:18:13):

Yet it still took you eight to 12 episodes?

Speaker 2 (01:18:17):

Oh yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:18:17):

All that aside,

Speaker 2 (01:18:19):

Yeah, because you're in the middle of an episode myself right now, I'm just staring at my wall talking to you, but it's not natural because I'm seated. I need to talk into the mic. I'm just staring at this one portion of my wall for over an hour. It's very not anything that a human ever does unless they're doing a podcast. So that's the really awkward learning curve. And I think on top of that, getting used to the sound of my voice with anybody who starts a podcast, it's like, oh, yikes. There it is.

Speaker 1 (01:18:51):

Yeah, that's actually sounds silly, but that's a rough one.

Speaker 2 (01:18:57):

It is.

Speaker 1 (01:18:58):

Nobody likes the way they sound, dude, I fucking hate the sound of my own voice. Hate it. God, I feel like I sound like such an idiot, but my voice in my head is damn good. So it's always a disappointment in

Speaker 2 (01:19:15):

My earbuds. It sounds good too though, so don't worry about

Speaker 1 (01:19:18):

It. Thank you. Thank you. But if only you could hear my voice, I hear it. You'd want to marry me probably. It's good, but it, it's not nearly as good in real life. But the other thing is, so okay, yeah, getting comfortable speaking for a long time is a big challenge. Another big challenge is getting comfortable hearing your own voice,

(01:19:46):

But then the biggest challenge of all this is the big one is keeping it interesting week after week after week after week after week, over and over and over again. It is a big thing to try to do. And so whenever I see people saying they're going to do it, I don't wish them any failure or anything like that, but always a little skeptical because I feel like for the most part, they haven't thought it through. And what I think people should do is commit themselves to doing something like 20 episodes no matter what happens, even if nobody listens, even if they suck, commit to 20 and have a plan for what those 20 are going to be. And then do them and then see how you feel about it.

Speaker 2 (01:20:37):

Yeah,

Speaker 1 (01:20:37):

Because it's going to suck at first.

Speaker 2 (01:20:39):

Yeah. It's another one of those things where it's just so hard to get out of your own head to keep going with it, especially when you get two listens, four listens. It's like, my own mom didn't even listen to that one. It's really difficult. And like you said, the creative end is much, much more difficult than people realize. That's one thing I'm starting to realize in the video world as well, it just coming up with something to talk about that's authentic and on brandand slash what people are kind of expecting. It's this weird dance and balance where it's a bit precarious. But I think for myself, that's kind of why I know I changed the name in my podcast, but I've brought it back to the safe bungee show because ultimately I think for me, my podcast, I wanted to set it up in a way to where whatever I've learned and soaked up this week is what I want to pass on. Or if there's something I'm hot on or something that happened in my world, I can literally just talk about that and relate it to maybe the larger journey of freelance life and post it up that I wanted to, at least for me, create it in a way where it allowed me to make the idea aspect a little less painful and scary. And I think it's worked so far. I haven't ran out of things to talk about yet.

Speaker 1 (01:22:00):

Have you ever felt like you're going to run out of things to talk about?

Speaker 2 (01:22:03):

Oh yeah. Mine go live every Monday. So there's a Sunday at 5:00 PM where I've totally forgot about the podcast, and I was like, uhoh, what do I say? And then of course, in the panic, I couldn't think of anything, and it took me, I didn't even record that one until five, not 5:10 PM that night and was able to record it, one, take it, get it, top bottom, bounce it out, get it done. But sometimes it's hard. I have now a notepad where I've been stockpiling my ideas, so I'm good even if I'm not creative for the next two months. And I think that's been important for me, having a place to put my rough ideas so that I can just go there and pull from it instead of like, alright, it's Sunday time to do the podcast. What's the topic? Well, let me begin the thinking process

Speaker 1 (01:22:55):

And how much prep do you do for it?

Speaker 2 (01:22:57):

So if it's a solo episode, I'll probably take me maybe 20, 30 minutes to get a bullet point at the point now where I can get away with bullet points for each thing I want to hit. And then I can typically one, take it. And if not, I'll make markers as I go, then go back, clean it up. But if it's a research thing, like a conversation, a guest, it could be anywhere from maybe 30 minutes to an hour and a half, two hours, just depending on how quickly I'm maybe finding what I'm looking for. Because I like to make sure that the guest knows that I've invested time into their story.

Speaker 1 (01:23:38):

Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:23:38):

And to find things that are beyond so ail, you're nail the mix. Am I right? That's bad? And I just so respect the fact that people give me their time I wanted.

Speaker 1 (01:23:54):

That's why I have Ben Dupre interviews with people. Part of it's for me, and the other part is actually for the guest so that they feel like we are actually putting time into doing something awesome.

Speaker 2 (01:24:09):

Oh yeah. I felt super flattering just getting asked a bunch of questions and he is taking all these notes and it's like, yeah, as somebody who has now gone through the experience, I can definitely say that it makes you feel super important and respected and honored to be giving the time and putting the energy in to make it a great conversation and valuable for people. So I'm not quite at that level where I am able to invest like that, but I do my part so I can send 'em questions ahead of time, and then they have a question list and it's like, oh, okay. Jones found some interesting little nuggets here that aren't your conventional. Aren't your conventional. So doth questions.

Speaker 1 (01:24:53):

Yeah, I think that whenever I see people talking about podcasts that they're going to do it, if they post about it, thinking about starting a podcast, I think there's about a 90% chance they're not going to do it. Because if you have to ask other people for ideas about it, you're going to run out of ideas real quick,

Speaker 2 (01:25:16):

Especially at the start,

Speaker 1 (01:25:17):

Especially at the start. So I really think that if those of you listening want to do a podcast, just fucking start. Just start, start, start, start. Don't wait until you have the perfect lineup or perfect this or the perfect setup or anything like that. Just start because you need to get those bad episodes out of the way. I know that this podcast started strong, but it started strong because it wasn't my first podcast ever. Also, I did a bunch with Finn before that and had years of Creative Live and all this stuff. So was already, this was just an extension of a bunch of stuff I had already done. But if you've never done something like this before, if you've never used your voice professionally, just got to start. Don't wait and don't call me asking for help. Just start. No, you can call me and ask me for help, but I prefer you do it after you've recorded a few episodes.

Speaker 2 (01:26:23):

Yeah. Well, it shows that it's worth your time to respond to. And even I've experienced that at my little baby level with it. It's like I've become that go-to person in my circle that has executed on the things that I've said I'm going to execute on. And it's like, John, how do I start a podcast? And it's really difficult because my instinct is to send them that link that's like, let me Google that for you link, and I really want to, but it's like the morals that my nana instilled in me and my parents.

Speaker 1 (01:26:53):

You don't want to be an asshole.

Speaker 2 (01:26:54):

Yeah, I don't. And it would go against the hashtag that seems to be the one I'm sticking with, which is kindness wins. So I'll say, there's probably better answers on Google than I can give you. I have no idea what I'm doing. And that's been my cop out where it's like you're asking one dude and you can go out and get 20 opinions from 20 blog articles on Google, and you're going to get much deeper perspective than I would give you, but I would 100% agree. It's just make it, nobody cares what your logo is, the image, because it's going to change. It's going to get better. Nobody cares what the name is because you can change it. I've changed my podcast name and then I changed it back. I've gotten three texts maybe about it between the two changes. Yeah,

Speaker 1 (01:27:41):

We changed our name once.

Speaker 2 (01:27:43):

Yeah, exactly. Joey Sturgis Forum podcast to URM. And nobody's been like, well, I used to like it when it was JSF podcast, but can't hate it.

Speaker 1 (01:27:56):

You are. I hate psychic vampires. And I feel like when people ask questions like that that they could easily find the answer to, they're being vampires. And here's the thing, I am totally cool with people asking me for advice on things. My fucking career is people asking for advice on things. So I really am okay with it. But the thing is too, that I have had a lot of people who have learned from me go on to do things. And so I know how to spot the difference between someone who is going to do something and someone who's just fucking around. And so it kind of bums me out when I see the fucking around kind. And usually one of the things that the fucking around kind do is bother you with questions that they shouldn't be asking things like, how do I start a podcast? And where it's like there's tons of information out there, and really, what do you mean? How do you start a podcast? You set up a microphone and you start talking.

Speaker 2 (01:29:10):

Yeah,

Speaker 1 (01:29:12):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:29:14):

That's way you the So Googleable. Oh, how do I get it out there? It's all so, so googleable. And it's like if you can't have that basic know-how to just turn to Google or YouTube, then it's probably not going to work.

Speaker 1 (01:29:29):

There's apps that you can record it into who will then post it to everything. If you're not at the point where you need an editor and all that stuff, there's apps you can use that will do all that stuff for you. What they're really doing, the reason that it bums me out is not because they're wasting my time, even though they are, it's more because I know they're not serious because they're avoiding the actual hard part by asking those questions, they're avoiding the hard part, which is the important part, which is what are you going to actually talk about? And then getting over the sound of their own voice and all that. That's the hard shit. And wasting my time asking about how to start a podcast isn't going to make your content any better. It's not going to make you any better at talking into a microphone. So stop asking, start doing, and then once you have a bunch of episodes, I would be more than happy to talk to you about it.

Speaker 2 (01:30:30):

Yeah. Because then at that, it's communicating that you're able, at least for me in the few times, I know you've gotten harassed about a ton more than I, but for me it's like, yeah, just being able to see that you execute on the ideas, and then it's like, all right, yeah, you care. You'll probably take the advice.

Speaker 1 (01:30:46):

Yeah. But then we're talking about something real.

Speaker 2 (01:30:48):

Exactly. And then it's exciting. Then it's like, oh, somebody is actually doing it. And that's so rare. And yeah, I honestly don't think I can tell you one person's in my circle, Danny Wallen, he's maybe six or seven in.

Speaker 1 (01:31:03):

Yep. He started it.

Speaker 2 (01:31:04):

Yeah, he started and he's kept going. I can count.

Speaker 1 (01:31:08):

Good for him.

Speaker 2 (01:31:08):

Most of them haven't started, but then a few have done maybe three episodes, like you said. And then I don't know how many, he's on somewhere, maybe six to eight, I'm not totally sure. But it's like, yeah, he's sticking with it and it's super, super cool to see. And if he had any questions and hit you up, it'd be like, oh yeah, you're crushing it.

Speaker 1 (01:31:29):

Yeah, him I would help, because he said he was going to start it and he started it, and he's done a few episodes. So I would help him if he needed help, but I wasn't too stoked about helping him before he had started. I just wanted to see him actually do it.

Speaker 2 (01:31:51):

Yeah. Because I can definitely attest to the power of just being able to demonstrate by doing, or to be able to send something that you've done and say, Hey, here's the thing I've done that I want to level up. That communicates a completely different skillset than just coming with nothing to show. And I feel like that. I want to loop back to Steven super quick. He had never actually tuned a vocal before the day I asked him to tune a vocal, but he figured it out, got it done. And then it's like, okay, this is an executor. I bet you can do anything. And he can. And it's a very different mental approach, and it's something that has really stuck out to me and something I really try to communicate with people that I work with too. It's like you tell me to make a beef Wellington, like Gordon Ramsey's signature dish. I have no idea, but you know what? I'll figure it out. It'll probably taste bad, but I'm going to execute as best as I can and then show you that I'm serious about it and show that I'm valuable in that way.

Speaker 1 (01:32:49):

And then ask for how to make it better.

Speaker 2 (01:32:50):

Exactly. Yeah. It's like, yeah, okay. Give this taste and then let me know where I messed up and how would I cook that beef? Probably bad.

Speaker 1 (01:32:56):

So the moral of the story is stop talking and start doing. But if you're podcasting, actually start talking Exactly. And start doing.

Speaker 2 (01:33:04):

Yeah. Once you've been doing the doing, then it's like time to refine it. But yeah, I have too many friends that have all said it. And as you know, once you're the podcast dude, people will tell you specifically, it's like, I'm going to start a podcast. And you just got to say, good luck, crush it, and let them go on that journey themselves.

Speaker 1 (01:33:25):

Yeah, totally. The thing that bums me out is that I don't want to be a dick about it. I really don't. But it's like, dude, just start talking. It's that easy.

Speaker 2 (01:33:36):

It

Speaker 1 (01:33:36):

Really is. And with that said, I think this is a good place to call it, Mr. McLucas, thank you for coming on the URM podcast.

Speaker 2 (01:33:44):

Well, I thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure. And that's the end of my sentence. Thank you so much again.

Speaker 1 (01:33:51):

No, thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:33:53):

You've been

Speaker 1 (01:33:54):

Listening to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast. To ask us questions, make suggestions and interact, visit URM Academy and press the podcast link today.