STEVE EVETTS: Why Modern Metal is Background Noise, Editing Drums By Hand, and The Dillinger Escape Plan

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast, brought to you by Sure, legendary microphones, cutting edge wireless systems, premium earphones, and headphones. Sure. The most trusted audio brand worldwide. For more information, go to sure.com. And now your host,

Speaker 2 (00:00:21):

Eyal Levi. I want to take a second to tell you about something that I am very excited about, and it's the URM Summit. Once a year, we hold an event where hundreds of producers from all over the world come together for four days of networking, workshops, seminars, and hanging out. This industry is all about relationships, and think about it, what could you gain from getting to personally know your peers from all over the world who have the same goals as you, the same struggles as you, and who can help, inspire you, motivate you, as well as become potential professional collaborators? This year's summit is on November 9th through 11th at the Las Vegas Weston, which is just one block off of the strip, and it's going to be even bigger and better than ever. We're anticipating even more producers, plus a lineup of amazing guests like Jens Borin, Kris Crummett, machine Forester, so ve Michael Legian, Dave Ro, Billy Decker, Chris Adler, Mary Zimmer, Mike Mowry, Jesse Cannon Blasco, Jason Berg, Jessica Lohan, and more.

(00:01:29):

And of course, our musical guest, the one and only archspire. So get your summit tickets [email protected], and we will see you in Vegas. My guest today is Mr. Steve Evetts, who's a songwriter, engineer, producer, and mixer who's touched many, many different genres and artists in his decades long, amazing career. Since the inception of that career in the nineties, he's worked with lots of people you've heard of, like the Dillinger Escape Plan, suicide Silence, devil Driver, the Cure Earth Crisis. Every Time I die, hate breed architects and a ton more amazing bands. He's got lots of billboard toppers under his belt, and he just continues to churn out incredible productions. No sign of stopping. And what I love about his work is that no matter what's going on trend-wise, his stuff always sounds like a band is playing, which is one of the things I don't like about modern production. So anyways, Steve, welcome to the podcast. Thank you for being here.

Speaker 3 (00:02:40):

Thanks for having me.

Speaker 2 (00:02:41):

My pleasure. So just a little bit of background.

Speaker 3 (00:02:44):

Sure.

Speaker 2 (00:02:44):

What got you started? What sparked your interest in doing this all in the first place?

Speaker 3 (00:02:49):

I was always kind of fascinated by recording. I actually discovered an old reel to reel, like a home Web Corps company was called Webco Old Reel to Reel Tape Machine, which was a home recording thing back in, I think it was from the fifties, from my parents. I found it in our attic when I was about seven years old, six or seven if I remember right. And I would record my sister playing piano and just be just fascinated. There was this little, basically this little crystal mic that plugged in with a little RCA Jack. It's stored in the lid of the recorder. And there literally, I think there was one reel of tape that we had, and I figured I had to thread the tape and you turn the thing, it was like, and we record, and it kind of got me going then. And even when I was a kid making, I dunno if you ever made pause tapes instead of mix tapes, but that was the way of editing. You take a tape recorder and you record something and you pause it at the right spot and then go to record something else and unpause it to try and make an edit from one part to another

Speaker 2 (00:03:55):

Or one

Speaker 3 (00:03:55):

Song to

Speaker 2 (00:03:56):

Another. Yeah, I used to try that back on a fork track. And then on an eight

Speaker 3 (00:04:00):

Track, I would do it just with my home stereo, like my Panasonic home stereo, doing the make pause tapes, like the early version of a mixed taper edit. I was always fascinated by it. I had this old Panasonic stereo that was inherited from my parents too, that there was a stereo and mono switch you could either flip it from, because back in the day, a lot of LPs were either mono, some of them were mono, some of them were stereo. So you could actually flip it to mono, and there was actually left and right separate volume knobs for the left speaker and the right speaker. So when you put it in mono, when I would listen to the Beatles White album, it would sum both sides to mono. And I could actually, you know how the old Beatles recordings, a lot of times the drums and almost all the musics in the left speaker and just the vocals are in the right speaker. And I was just like, I figured it out. I put it in mono, and all of a sudden I could turn down one side and you would hear just the vocals. And I was like, whoa. I was fascinated by it. So I was always into it. And then I think I was 13 or 14. I took my money from my bar mitzvah and

Speaker 2 (00:05:10):

The year you became a man,

Speaker 3 (00:05:11):

The year I became a man, and I got a four track. I got a Fostex X 15 four track, and it was awesome. It was battery powered as well as you could plug it into the wall. I could run it on D batteries. I could go outside and record my neighbor Lee across my neighbor who lived across the street from me. I would record him with his motorcycle riding down the street for sound effects, and I would panic it left and make my own little. So yeah, I've been into recording forever. I got into bands when I was in high school. I had this local kind of metal band that had a little bit of national success. We just had our small record deal with A BMG distributed Indie.

Speaker 2 (00:05:54):

When you were in high school?

Speaker 3 (00:05:56):

No, no. Right out of high school. I was 19. And my whole thing was, man, I hope the band makes it so I could build a recording studio.

Speaker 2 (00:06:06):

So that was just the goal.

Speaker 3 (00:06:08):

It was always, for the most part, it was the be all, end all. It was like I always recorded my band's demos on four Track.

Speaker 2 (00:06:15):

Had you ever gone to another producer?

Speaker 3 (00:06:19):

My band? Well, actually yes, because we went to, the only thing we went to was with Eric Rachel at Tracks East. That's where we recorded our first, our debut

Speaker 2 (00:06:29):

Record. Okay, awesome.

Speaker 3 (00:06:32):

And we recorded all our demos with Eric at Trais when Trais was a basement studio. It was an eight track studio in his father's basement before he became a commercial facility. We recorded our demos and our demos. Got a lot of airplay on the local metal college radio station.

Speaker 2 (00:06:48):

That's quite a town to do to

Speaker 3 (00:06:51):

Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:06:51):

Do your first demos with

Speaker 3 (00:06:53):

Yeah. Oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:06:54):

No. Was that basically going to recording school for you

Speaker 3 (00:07:00):

In a way? Yeah. I mean, it was really funny. We did, I played on my friend John, who's this drummer who's out here now. He's a drum tech out here in la, and we went to high school together. I played on his drum demo back then people made drum demos or recording themselves. So it was basically a drum demo of his. And I played bass on his drum demo at Tracks East, which happened to be literally a block two blocks from my house growing up in East Brunswick. He was in the next town over this town called Spotswood, and I could literally cut through my neighbor's yard and get to tracks east, the original tracks east. And I met Eric when I was like 16. And then when it came time to, I did another demo with another band with him, and he had a small setup back then in his parents' basement. It was a Fostex, not a task cam, 38 half inch a track and a Teac console, a Model 12 console. And we recorded demos with him. And then when I got into the other band band called American Angel, I was like, I know this guy, Eric, let's go to him. And I recorded with him.

Speaker 2 (00:08:11):

So even back then, I guess that was before he started to get better known.

Speaker 3 (00:08:18):

He was known in our scene in our local community.

Speaker 2 (00:08:21):

That's what I was wondering.

Speaker 3 (00:08:22):

Yeah. Well, he was in Spotswood, like some of the local punk people, like the bands that I wound up working with later band called Lifetime. Well, Ari, the drummer, was in this band called Enough Before Lifetime. They recorded there and this other hardcore band called Vision Recorded there in Eric's basement. And then we did our demo, and then he wound up doing the original version of Track East. He moved out of his parents' basement into a facility. Didn't have a lot of gear at the place, but enough he had a Soundcraft console and a couple of pieces gear, an original Blue Stripe, 1176.

Speaker 2 (00:08:57):

Nice.

Speaker 3 (00:08:58):

Which now I own because Eric closed the studio earlier this year. And I wound up actually grabbing a bunch of gear that I wound up literally cutting my teeth on back in the day when I first started working at Trax East. So I have the old original Blue Stripe, 1176, which is awesome. And I've got this other a KG tube mic that I wound up using on the first Dillinger record and hate read and vocals and saves the day. And so many of these records that I was the start of my career, I now have that mic at my studio, which is pretty awesome. It feels like it's like a full circle thing.

Speaker 2 (00:09:35):

Totally full circle. At the time when you were working with him, was the word around town about him that he would, did people think that he was going to go on to become a famous producer?

Speaker 3 (00:09:48):

Was just he was the guy

Speaker 2 (00:09:50):

In, he was the dude.

Speaker 3 (00:09:50):

There was a few studios, local studios in town, but Eric was the best, and he's just the coolest guy ever. I mean, he's basically a second father to me at this point, because I've known him since I was 16 years old, and we've been friends for so long now, and he definitely was my mentor. And after our deal went south, I would help out. Even in the studio when we were doing the first that American Angel record, I actually helped him mix. At that time, we were mixing with no automation on a console and just all hands on deck. And I was basically the guy, I was always the guy in the studio trying not to be that guy, but I'm sure I was that guy always going

Speaker 2 (00:10:30):

Up. I think we were all that guy when we were

Speaker 3 (00:10:32):

18 or 19. But now I see the guy, and I always identify that guy when I've worked with a young band, I'm like, oh, you're the guy. And he is like, oh, what's going on? How come you're doing this? Asking the questions or whatever. And it's just like, but then I'm like, wait a minute. I was that guy. I can't be mad at it. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:10:52):

It's weird.

Speaker 3 (00:10:53):

You know what? I definitely do not mind sharing information, especially if I know that they're really taking it and they're really learning from it. The big thing is when people just like now with, I get questions all the time, Hey, what compressor setting do you use on a heavy vocal? I'm like, what does the singer sound like? What's the music? What's the template? Everybody's looking for a preset, and it's like, just use your ears. You got to use your ears,

Speaker 2 (00:11:23):

Man. We are in the business of, I guess one of our big missions is to kill that, which is kind of interesting because doing online education and recording, especially when we first started, that was what our detractors were saying that we were, they hadn't never seen any of our content. They were just saying it's more of that preset garbage of people just trying to give people shortcuts. And actually, we try to eliminate that mentality because I think that mentality is, I mean, it's totally destructive and it's counterproductive, and you don't learn anything.

Speaker 3 (00:12:06):

It's counterproductive. You don't learn anything. And it's also, it contributes to what you were saying earlier about, thank you for the compliment about that. A lot of the bands that I work with, it sounds like the band. It sounds real, and it sounds, because that's, to me, the whole thing of the devaluation of music nowadays. I think a lot of it stems from laziness because the bands, bands don't learn how to master their craft. They don't learn their instrument. The whole thing is, it's like, learn your craft. I've always said this, this is my mantra. I've said it to 'em, blue in the face, learn your craft. And that stems from all the way down the line. And it starts with the bands, because bands, a lot of bands don't know. When I tell 'em, do it again. What do you mean do it again?

(00:12:59):

Aren't you just going to fix it? No, I want you to get it right. I want you to, the effort, even if it's not perfect, the effort that you put down that you leave on tape or on da, whatever tape, the effort you leave there, the blood on the track, so to speak, is what matters, what people connect with. So learn your craft, learn how to get, learn how to learn your instrument. Don't rely on somebody knowing you're going to fix it. And then on our side, on the producer engineer side, they don't learn how to coax a good performance out of somebody or know or just feel when it feels right. And not that it's perfect just when it feels right. And it's like everybody just looks at a grid, looks at a screen and just fixes it. And it's like, so you're not learning your craft as an artist.

(00:13:51):

You're not learning your craft as a producer. And then people mix it and they're using the same stupid samples on everything, and everything's gridded, and it's just like an autotune. The vocals and all of that cheapens the music, and then it takes all the emotional content out of it. And then I think people inherently, whether they know it or not, on some subconscious level, the music doesn't hit them in the same emotional way as it used to. And there's lots of bands out there that are doing it the right way and people that are doing it the right way. Not saying that everybody's doing it the wrong way, not at all. But there's a lot of that going on, and I think it makes music that you don't sit there like us as kids. I know you're closer to my age as kids. We're going, you put on a record and you go, oh, that's so good. And it gives you goosebumps, and you're just like, you're so into it, and it takes you away. It brings you to a different place. And now most of the music that's made, especially in metal, it's like stuff you put on while you're vacuuming your car. It's background noise. It doesn't hit you where you want to stop what you're doing and listen to it and get into it.

Speaker 2 (00:15:05):

I agree. What's interesting too is that, and I agree with you, the thing that I find interesting is that even with modern bands who use modern recording techniques, those that have mastered their craft and just maybe they have a modern sound and there is some editing involved and all that stuff, but they are at the top of their game and the producer they work with are at the top of their game, and they only use those techniques as tools. They don't use them as crutches. They use them as tools.

Speaker 3 (00:15:40):

Exactly.

Speaker 2 (00:15:40):

Those bands fucking rule. There's a band called Arc Spire, a death metal band from Canada.

Speaker 3 (00:15:48):

Nice.

Speaker 2 (00:15:48):

They're recorded with my friend David Tarro.

Speaker 3 (00:15:51):

Cool.

Speaker 2 (00:15:51):

We actually had them on nail mix back in November, and I mean, they do stuff at like three 50 BPM. I mean, it is fast, fast, and they pull it off live. I mean, they're the real deal. Of course, there's a decent amount of punching in and all that stuff on the record, of course, but it's real music.

Speaker 3 (00:16:12):

The punching in thing is, I never equate the punching in thing to cheating to me because

Speaker 2 (00:16:21):

It's not

Speaker 3 (00:16:22):

Punching in. You're actually still recording. You're just not playing it once and I'm fixing it. You're actually still putting the effort in. It's like, that's what I used to do on all those records. People ask me about the first Dillinger record, and they can't believe we made that on tape. And it's like, yeah, we did. That was all punching in on tape.

Speaker 2 (00:16:39):

Well, the punching in also, I think there's some places where certain types of edits are appropriate. There are places where tuning's appropriate,

Speaker 4 (00:16:48):

But

Speaker 2 (00:16:48):

I think it's all just, I look at it the way though, that there are times when you need a Phillips head. There are times when you need a flat head,

Speaker 3 (00:16:56):

Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (00:16:57):

The end. And so when appropriate, the tools are great. But the funny thing is, and tuning is the best example, I think.

Speaker 4 (00:17:07):

Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:17:08):

When you use tuning autotune on a great singer, you can't hear the autotune. The only time that you can hear it is when it's being pushed too hard and it's fixing something that should just be sung. And so in reality, what we're hearing are people who kind of suck, who, I mean, I'm not talking about where it's an artistic decision to make it sound kind of like a vocal synth,

Speaker 3 (00:17:37):

Right? That's a different thing.

Speaker 2 (00:17:39):

That's a different thing. But in general, you're not supposed to be able to hear the tuning because it's only supposed to fix subtleties. It's not.

Speaker 3 (00:17:50):

Oh, yeah. I mean, dude, I listened to, this is maybe three or four years ago. I remember Aretha Franklin Rest in Peace, but I heard one of the last Aretha Franklin songs on the radio. I was like, new Aretha Franklin. I'm like, oh, cool. And I hear it, and they're auto tuning, fucking Aretha Franklin. He was like, are you kidding? Why are you kidding me? What? You know what I mean? What's that one lie? I always use that line from Jurassic Park to Jeff. Jeff Golum says, the first Jurassic Park. It's like, you spent so much time congratulating yourselves on, I forget what the actual line is. Just because you could doesn't mean you should, basically is the line.

Speaker 2 (00:18:35):

Oh, yeah, I totally agree. However, I was in an Uber about a year or two ago, and the guy was listening to all this eighties rock,

Speaker 4 (00:18:43):

And

Speaker 2 (00:18:44):

This Motley Cruz song came on, I think, home Sweet Home or something, and the vocals were so out of tune, I couldn't handle it again, I don't know how, I mean, I was so young when it came out, but I remember my dad hearing it on the radio and being like, oh my God, he's so flat. Turn it off. And I didn't understand. I heard it recently and was like, wow, maybe that could use a little tuning, not to make it sound perfect, but just because it was so incredibly off. But at the

Speaker 3 (00:19:21):

Same time, it was a huge hit.

Speaker 2 (00:19:23):

It was

Speaker 3 (00:19:24):

The hell do we know?

Speaker 2 (00:19:25):

Huge, huge hit.

Speaker 3 (00:19:26):

Here's the thing I listen to, but I mean, God Zeppelin, one of my favorite bands of all time, Robert Plant Sharp, 90% of the time doesn't matter. It doesn't fucking matter. It makes you feel something. And it's like, if Zeppelin were around today, and I don't mean Greta Van Fleet, but I mean, if Zeppelin were around today and they would autotune Robert Plant, it's like just the thought of that just makes me cringe,

Speaker 2 (00:19:49):

Dude. Not just autotune of him, but Jimmy Page's.

Speaker 3 (00:19:54):

Yeah. Or beat Detective John Bonum or something like that. It's like what?

Speaker 2 (00:19:59):

Jimmy Page played some sloppy solos on that stuff, and they're great

Speaker 3 (00:20:04):

And they're awesome, and it's like, just let it be, man. Just let it be. I don't get it.

Speaker 2 (00:20:09):

But then again, we are talking about Led Zeppelin, which we're an amazing, amazing band. So I guess the question is, at what point does it become appropriate to do a little fixing?

Speaker 3 (00:20:23):

Sure.

Speaker 2 (00:20:23):

What do you think?

Speaker 3 (00:20:24):

I mean, yeah, dude. It's not like I don't fix things. Of course I do. I edit drums.

Speaker 2 (00:20:31):

Got to at some point,

Speaker 3 (00:20:32):

But I never use Beat Detective if there's a grid

(00:20:35):

All by hand, all by hand, and it's like, I'll take sections, and it's like if the drummer's on top, let him be on top. Just let it be consistent. You know what I mean? Let it breathe. There's spots where he's going to drag, he's going to push into a chorus. He's going to, he's going to either push or he's going to pull. You generally look at it as almost like a macro view, and you zoom out and you go, okay, what's he doing here? And then massage it in that way. If he's going to push, let him push. If he's going to pull, let him pull. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (00:21:09):

Absolutely.

Speaker 3 (00:21:10):

That's the kind of stuff. I'll take whole sections and slide. Take the whole section slide like a four bar section and just slide it forward, nudge it forward a little bit or nudge it back or whatever. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (00:21:22):

So it's not like microscopic edits, it's just general feel edits.

Speaker 3 (00:21:25):

No, not at all. It's general feel edits. And I had something recently, I had some guy that I hired, a newer guy that I hired to try and do stuff on a more recent record, and it's like, just try to explain it to him. And he's still listening to basically kick and snare. And it's like, well, what about the symbol hand? You're making the kick and snare. You're putting the kick and snare on the grid now. And now the symbol hand is completely dragging, and the whole field feels completely off. And it's like you're not even listening to the actual push. You're not listening to the pulse behind the beat. You're listening to the kick and snare like, dude that, but what about the quarter note crashing on the ride? That's actually the swing of the whole thing. Some of these newer guys, you have to just show them, and some of them will get it, and some of them won't. Just know how to use the grid. And that's about it.

Speaker 2 (00:22:24):

The best editor I've ever worked with is a guy named John Douglas.

Speaker 3 (00:22:28):

John's great. I've used John. You know him. Okay. I've used John.

Speaker 2 (00:22:31):

Yep. Yeah, he's great. Actually. I've known him since he was a little kid, and I was the first person he ever edited for. And I remember when he first started, everything was just to the grid, and we worked really, really hard. Worked really, really hard to try to explain the musical side of things to him about that. He got it really, really fast. I mean, he's so talented.

Speaker 3 (00:22:57):

Well, you're a drummer, right?

Speaker 2 (00:22:59):

No, I'm a guitar player. You're a guitar player.

Speaker 3 (00:23:02):

But

Speaker 2 (00:23:02):

I took drum lessons in order to be able to understand drums. So I did study drums for a while, but guitar is my instrument. But the thing with John that was, so after maybe I'd say a year of, let's just say a year of, we're always learning, but after about a year, he got to this point where all I had to say was this one, I need this one type in natural. That's all I'd have to say.

Speaker 4 (00:23:34):

Or

Speaker 2 (00:23:35):

This band needs to sound like a machine

Speaker 4 (00:23:39):

And

Speaker 2 (00:23:39):

It'd come back like a machine, or this has to be metal tight, but I still need to feel like it's a real drummer to come back exactly

Speaker 4 (00:23:48):

The

Speaker 2 (00:23:48):

Way. I guess the reason I'm talking about him is because, to your point, what makes him a great editor, other than the fact that he's really fast and knows the software inside out and just spits them out with great efficiency, is that he understands the music. And you can't be a great editor without understanding the music and understanding what it's supposed to feel like. And so I can give him the feel instructions, and he'll do exactly that. And this is why I think so many great producers hire him, because every producer has different requirements. I didn't know he's done work for you, but he also does work for Jay Ruston or Mark Lewis. He's done work for Joey Sturgis.

Speaker 3 (00:24:32):

Well, I think all of them have been at the recommendation of Jason Soff,

Speaker 2 (00:24:38):

And I introduced him to Jason. What's great about him though, is he can do what the producers need. He will actually listen to it and understand the feel of the music. It's rare.

Speaker 3 (00:24:54):

Yeah, it's very rare. I had a guy that used to work with me constantly, but he actually is kind of out of the business now that I worked with him for 10 years, and he was fantastic, and he just knew what I needed to do. And he used to work for Feldman before me, and so he knows both sides of it. I had to, same thing. I had to kind of say, Nope, no beats. At first. The first record I did with him was Story of the Year back in 2005, and I had to show him, okay, this is how we're doing it by hand. No beat detective. And then finally he got it. He got it pretty quick. He's a smart guy's. One of the smartest people I know understood it. And plus he was a guitar player, so he understood music.

Speaker 2 (00:25:38):

So question for you about that. Since we're talking about editors, here's something that I'm curious about. So with John, since I've known him since he was a little kid basically, and he was not a great editor when he started editing for me, but something about him made me want to just keep giving him a shot. And it sounds like the dude you're talking about wasn't great either when he started with you. What is it about somebody, in your opinion that makes you think if I just put some, invest some time into this guy and be patient?

Speaker 3 (00:26:17):

Well, I don't know per se about the other guy that I tried. I tried him only on one project. I mean, I'm willing to give him another shot for sure, but I wound up having to redo a lot of the stuff.

Speaker 2 (00:26:32):

No, but the guy that you were talking about, who?

Speaker 3 (00:26:33):

Oh, Alan, yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:26:35):

Who did work with you for a long time. You said he wasn't that great at first. What made you decide to keep going?

Speaker 3 (00:26:42):

Well, I mean, he got it even during the project. He got it fairly quickly, but he was a lot slower at first. He just wasn't used to working in that manner. He was so used to basically taking a half an hour per song using Beat Detective and putting it to a grid and being done with it. Yeah, I mean, I had him assist me on the whole record, not just editing. So we got along right away. He is just a great guy. It was just like, okay. I like having him around basically.

Speaker 2 (00:27:13):

Man, that's a big deal. I kind of ask, most of the producers I have on about how they got going or how they got their big break or what they look for when hiring somebody and the be cool to hang out with is always above the skill level even.

Speaker 3 (00:27:32):

It's always way above the skill level. Unless they can't learn and they don't improve, then it's a different story. But for the most part, you're spending so much time working with these people. For me, working in my studio, you're just hanging out with 'em all the time. You got to have, that'd be like being in a band with people you hate. Could you imagine? I know so many, right? And I know so many people, and I also know the opposite side of it. When I see it's like, man, this band's really good, but this whatever. The one person's the weak link of the band, and he's like, man, he's just, oh God, he's just not good. But they're like, yeah, but he's awesome to tour with. He's a great hang. And it's like, or the opposite, the backside of that, where it's like, this guy was great, amazing musician, but he sucked as a person. We lasted three weeks in a tour with him. We just couldn't be in the same room with him. And it's like, yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:28:30):

Yeah. Do you remember that band Kai era?

Speaker 3 (00:28:32):

Of course,

Speaker 2 (00:28:33):

By any chance. So what I'm about to say is no secret. I mean, they put this on their DVD and stuff, so it's not like I'm talking shit about some secret, but their bass player, Jim LaMarca, was known to be a shitty bass player. I mean, again, they put, this is all on shit they released. So I'm not talking about anything that wasn't public, but he was known to be a shitty bass player. And those two guitar players, Matt and Rob, they were tight. And so it was really weird if you just thought about it purely musically speaking, why would a band that's like razor tight have this dude who can't keep up musically

Speaker 3 (00:29:18):

Because they like the hang

Speaker 2 (00:29:20):

And he's the guy who socialized and would get them in with Slayer, and he's the guy who, when everybody else wanted to go to sleep at night, he's the one who would be partying with the other bands and making contacts and helping them progress.

Speaker 3 (00:29:38):

Exactly.

Speaker 2 (00:29:38):

And so they kept him until he left, basically.

Speaker 3 (00:29:42):

Yep.

Speaker 2 (00:29:43):

One thing that I've heard, I forget who said it, I think it was actually Chase Jarvis, the creative live CEO, that on this topic, that your skills are assumed. So if you're going to be at the table, I guess he was talking in terms of photography, if you're going to be an option for a gig or as an assistant or whatever, they're going to assume that you've got some of the skills. But what they're really looking for is whether you understand their vision and they can hang out with you. And I think in terms of getting an assistant or an intern as a producer as what you said, I want to key in on it, as long as you know that they can learn. Obviously, if they can't learn, then what are you doing? It's pointless. But if they can learn and they have the aptitude to get there, and there's some talent there, but maybe they just haven't had someone, a good mentor or whatever, but they're really, really cool and they can learn, boom, that's the right kind of guy, I

Speaker 3 (00:30:53):

Think. Yeah, absolutely. It's so important. I mean, look, the reality of it is as far as obviously what we do artistically and sonically is super important, but we're also, we're in a service business. We have to be, if people don't like you, they're not going to rebook with you. That's a huge thing.

Speaker 2 (00:31:18):

Massive.

Speaker 3 (00:31:19):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:31:20):

Massive.

Speaker 3 (00:31:20):

A lot of people, there's a few people I know that seem to forget that

Speaker 2 (00:31:25):

I've forgotten it at times.

Speaker 3 (00:31:26):

I have too. I definitely have too.

Speaker 2 (00:31:29):

Yeah. I've definitely, when been younger and got mad at bands and ruined the relationship at that point in time when I did a really good job on the record,

Speaker 3 (00:31:42):

And remember how you used to think that that was just enough, that would be enough.

Speaker 2 (00:31:47):

Not that I thought it would be enough.

Speaker 3 (00:31:49):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:31:49):

It's more that my interpersonal skills weren't that developed yet, so I let things get to me that I shouldn't have let get to me and wasn't mature about how I handled them.

Speaker 3 (00:32:03):

It takes an interesting bout of self-reflection on that because we expect the artist to not take it personally when we're telling them what they're doing is wrong, but then when of course they're going to, right. But then when it flips around on us, I have to remind myself sometimes, even now when I get a mixer vision from a band and I'm like, what are you guys doing? This is fucking stupid. Are you kidding me? I'm telling this to myself, my inner dialogue, I get a mixture vision. I'm like, are you kidding me? Really? You want the high hat ladder? Come on. You know what I mean? Stuff like that. And I'm like, you know what? I need to basically follow my own example by telling them, don't take it personally. I'm only doing this anything. I tell you a criticism, take it with a grain of salt, because the only thing I'm after is making the best record possible. So you have to constant, it's a constant, it takes some self-work. You really need to, and it's a mantra. You almost need to keep reminding yourself of that. I don't have that innately built into me to go,

Speaker 2 (00:33:07):

Neither do I.

Speaker 3 (00:33:09):

Just like, we get criticized, we're like, what the hell? You mean what? You get all offended. And it's like, no, you expect everybody else not to get offended. So why are you getting offended?

Speaker 2 (00:33:21):

How did you start to realize that you were doing that thing? What brought that awareness to you?

Speaker 3 (00:33:31):

It's just time. Just over time, I realize things, hopefully as human beings, hopefully, we never really stop learning and we grow. It's just I've been doing it so damn long. It just started happening. I definitely didn't do it at first. And I would definitely get offended when bands didn't like what I did or suggestions I made. And again, I would always tell them from the get go, I'm like, don't take it personally what I do, what I'm telling you. And for so long, I would always tell the bands that and then

Speaker 2 (00:34:06):

Take it personally, and

Speaker 3 (00:34:07):

Then I would take it personally. Yeah. So

Speaker 2 (00:34:10):

I have never had an anger problem or anything, or gone to anger management, but I know that in

Speaker 3 (00:34:16):

Anger drive

Speaker 2 (00:34:17):

Anger management, one of the things that they try to get people to do is to become aware of when they're getting angry. So it's one of the first steps is to become aware of what you're doing when you're doing it, even if it takes, after you got angry writing down that you got angry and why you got angry. But one of the first steps to really getting it under control is to be aware of when you're doing that thing so that eventually when you're doing that thing, the voice kicks in and says, wait, chill. You're doing that thing again. Stop. That's how I got myself to stay levelheaded about things. For me, it's not mixed notes anymore. Now it's business stuff,

Speaker 3 (00:35:08):

And it all applies.

Speaker 2 (00:35:10):

Yeah. It is the same thing, and

Speaker 3 (00:35:11):

It's literally the same thing.

Speaker 2 (00:35:13):

Yeah. I feel very, very, when I present an idea or I want to do something, I feel very strongly about it because I put a lot of thought into it. I thought about it from all angles, and I'm not going to waste my partner's time. I'm just not.

Speaker 3 (00:35:30):

Right. And also, it's the same way as a career in production where it's like, this is your thing. This is what you've built. And it's like, here's what I do. So anything that's like an intrusion upon that, as a perceived intrusion upon that, you immediately go into, what the fuck? You go into attack mode or defense mode.

Speaker 2 (00:35:56):

Well, also you can get intoxicated by your own track record. If a producer has all these accolades. It's like, well, I know what I'm talking about. I've done all this great stuff for the business.

Speaker 3 (00:36:10):

God, same thing. It's the dude. It's the same thing. And people be like, when people try to tell me, it's like, dude, you're the man. You've done it. I'm like, yeah, no,

Speaker 2 (00:36:24):

I think that's the right way to go.

Speaker 3 (00:36:26):

It's only

Speaker 2 (00:36:29):

In reality, it doesn't matter.

Speaker 3 (00:36:31):

In reality, it doesn't. You know what I mean? But only a fool will think he's right a hundred percent of the time. It plays true so much. You think you know something, and then somebody will come along and be like, Nope, you don't. Whether they're telling you that or not, you realize it. And it's like, it's just these moments that it happens all the time. I never try to think, I'm so aware of how fortunate I am and how lucky I am to get to do something that I've loved to do my entire life.

Speaker 2 (00:37:13):

It was pretty great.

Speaker 3 (00:37:14):

And it's God, just to think something. It's the stupidest position you could ever take.

Speaker 2 (00:37:23):

Just going to take a quick break, and I promise it's going to be quick, but it's important. I need to remind you guys, so please forgive me. This episode is brought to you by the URM Summit, four days of networking workshops, seminars, and hanging out with your URM friends and dozens of the industry's best pros. It's November eight through 11 at the Las Vegas Westin and tickets are available right [email protected]. Alright, back to the episode. I had a really interesting podcast guest a couple months ago. Her name is Susan Rogers, and she is a professor at Berkeley. She's engineer or former engineer. She used to engineer for prints.

Speaker 3 (00:38:08):

Oh, cool.

Speaker 2 (00:38:09):

Yeah, she done.

Speaker 3 (00:38:10):

Oh, that's where I've heard that name before. Yes.

Speaker 2 (00:38:12):

Yeah, she's done some big shit, but she's also a

Speaker 3 (00:38:14):

Neuroscientist. Oh, wow.

Speaker 2 (00:38:15):

And has done a lot of very interesting research. But one of the things that she told me was that studies show that she's conducted, that a trained musical brain and a non-trained musical brain at the end of the day, don't perceive music that differently. Maybe there's a 5% variance or something. The only difference really is that those of us who are more trained have a language for it and understand the technical stuff. But when it comes down to having an opinion on it, just because you have a professional advantage, because you know how stuff is made, doesn't mean that your opinion is more developed and there's scientific proof for that reason. I say that is because a lot of times producers who always think they're right, think they're right because they think they're the expert. And it turns out that the common listener, when it comes to taste or when it comes to pointing things out that are right or wrong, listeners are just as expert too, interestingly enough

Speaker 3 (00:39:31):

For sure.

Speaker 2 (00:39:31):

And so it's important.

Speaker 3 (00:39:33):

I'm sure obviously she's more of an expert in the neuroscience thing.

Speaker 2 (00:39:38):

Well, yeah,

Speaker 3 (00:39:39):

But I think there's also, there's inherently a not to train musician, but I think there's people who are more receptive to music than others. Some people,

Speaker 2 (00:39:48):

Music

Speaker 3 (00:39:49):

Is something that you put on in the background, and some people, even if they don't play music, they are affected by music. And those people, obviously, they're no different than we are. We just know how to get somewhere. We have a roadmap, at least based on experience. We know these roads. It's basically that.

Speaker 2 (00:40:06):

Yeah, that's exactly right. But a lot of producers will discount the opinions of those people and

Speaker 3 (00:40:15):

Hell no. I think the funny thing is, and it's not to ever discount, in no way am I discounting the females saying they're not trained. There's plenty of great female engineers and great female musicians, great female producers. But somebody else pointed out to me, actually, Jesse Cannon pointed out to me, I think he called it when you're doing stuff for say, mixed details, he goes, if it passes the girlfriend test, and that's what I meant by not discounting females, but if it passes the girlfriend test, meaning basically someone who's not in the band or someone who's not really, really tuned into it, if the girlfriend notices that the mix is bad, then that's something

Speaker 2 (00:40:58):

Absolutely.

Speaker 3 (00:40:59):

You know what I mean? Or they notice. If the girlfriend notices the detail, then yes,

Speaker 2 (00:41:04):

My partner Joel calls it the mom test,

Speaker 3 (00:41:06):

The mom test, the girlfriend test. It could be anybody, just your bro. That brink comes into the studio that is not a musician, just says, oh, wow, that sounds weird. If someone that's not tuned into it points it out, and I never discount those, what? What are you listed you? If the girlfriend comes in and says, oh, that sounds funny. It's like, well, if

Speaker 2 (00:41:28):

Someone, you pay attention to that, you pay attention,

Speaker 3 (00:41:30):

Absolutely. Pay attention to that. Because if someone who's not in the business notices, then maybe something's wrong. Don't be like, oh, what does she know? It's the stupidest thing. And we get very territorial about things. But then again, then where's the line? Because then when someone's girlfriend, boyfriend, whatever, partner comes in into a session when we're working and starts making suggestions, you should do this. It's like sometimes my first reaction, especially years ago, my first reaction would be, oh God, really? Really? You're, you're going to make suggestion. Get out of here. What are you doing in here? But there's also been times where it's like, huh, someone who has a completely outside perspective in the same way that we as producers and engineers, when we're called to produce a abandon, they come in, they want an outside perspective. So meet and look at the song and go, Hey, what if you do this? And they're like, wow, we never thought of that. Well, if I'm expected to have that happen, then why wouldn't I take into account someone, some random that comes rolling into the studio and makes a suggestion? You never know. You never know.

Speaker 2 (00:42:49):

One of the first full lengths I ever did was for this local country artist, and I think it was the second album I ever recorded.

Speaker 4 (00:43:01):

Oh, cool.

Speaker 2 (00:43:01):

And he brought his for the mix. The main guy was like, my wife's got a great ear. And she's coming to the mix.

Speaker 3 (00:43:10):

And you're like, oh, God.

Speaker 2 (00:43:12):

Yeah, because they sat next to me. So on one side I had him, and on the other hand, his wife literally right up in my space, and she was giving me mixed notes the whole time. And she's not a musician or producer or anything. It was interesting. Her mixed notes weren't that bad though, honestly, if I'm being honest.

Speaker 3 (00:43:36):

Yeah. I mean, if it's something like make it sound more blue, it's like, what if it's something like that? Then it's like, no, but you never know. Like I said, you can't discount that kind of stuff because ultimately, who are we making music for? We're making music for mostly people who don't play an instrument or don't listen. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (00:43:58):

It's true. So where is the line though?

Speaker 3 (00:44:01):

If I knew, if anybody knows, feel free to chime in or write you guys, because I don't know if I'll ever know where the line is, and I don't even know if I want to know where the line is. To be honest with you.

Speaker 2 (00:44:13):

Actually, Jesse, he was telling me that Ross Robinson, in his experience with Ross, Ross would have lots of people over and take their, if the girlfriend in the back said something, he'd listen.

Speaker 3 (00:44:28):

He would always would. Ross definitely likes to go to the absolute limit with that kind of stuff. He actually relishes all the chaos. He would invite as many people into the control room as possible.

Speaker 2 (00:44:43):

I can't imagine.

Speaker 3 (00:44:45):

Oh, yeah. And I've done some engineering for Ross, and it's like after a while it'd be like, ah, because he's drawn to very extreme personality, so he would have just the craziest wacky people. And then his old studio was in his house on the beach and literally off the sand in Venice, and there's lots of really colorful people, interesting characters that float around Venice Boardwalk. And he would invite, he'd just leave the door open and people would just wander in off the street like, Hey, what's going on in

Speaker 2 (00:45:16):

Here? Could just leave the door open.

Speaker 3 (00:45:17):

Oh, yeah. He would leave the door open, and I'd be like, dude, come on, man. We got to get some work done. He's like, ah, it's great, dude. Okay, here we go.

Speaker 2 (00:45:30):

That is mind blowing.

Speaker 3 (00:45:32):

Yep. Yeah. But at the same time, I've also done sessions with him back in the day when we worked without the drive-in where he would kick everybody out, including me, I'd set up the tones and then, okay, bye. And then I go sit in the lounge.

Speaker 2 (00:45:47):

Interesting.

Speaker 3 (00:45:47):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:45:48):

What was the reason for that?

Speaker 3 (00:45:50):

Probably just especially working when you work with Cedric, just to dig deep on an emotional level with him and just he's really good at that, better than anybody I know as far as getting to the core of why somebody's singing what they're singing, and just to get the most extreme possible emotional reaction out of them, and then capture it on the mic.

Speaker 2 (00:46:11):

Interesting. I mean, that makes sense. So in those party sessions, were those during tracking or mixing?

Speaker 3 (00:46:19):

During tracking? Not mixing.

Speaker 2 (00:46:20):

Okay.

Speaker 3 (00:46:21):

Yeah, during tracking, he would welcome the chaos.

Speaker 2 (00:46:24):

I mean, I've seen videos, obviously, little clips of that from Slipknot recordings or whatever where it's

Speaker 4 (00:46:31):

Just

Speaker 2 (00:46:32):

Insanity. But those Slipknot records basically put metal back on the map,

Speaker 3 (00:46:40):

For sure.

Speaker 2 (00:46:40):

They were like an explosion. And then you see the videos and it was like there was an explosion going off in that studio, and then it was captured. Was that kind of the idea?

Speaker 3 (00:46:52):

That's the idea.

Speaker 2 (00:46:54):

Interesting. I couldn't work like that.

Speaker 3 (00:46:57):

I know

Speaker 2 (00:46:58):

I hate people around.

Speaker 3 (00:46:59):

I do too. For the most part. I like to focus on whoever I'm working with, but everybody's got their method. That's fine. If we all did everything the exact same way, it'd be kind of a boring, your job would be pretty boring. You talk to people and they give you the same answers,

Speaker 2 (00:47:18):

Well mean. So a lot of your work also kind of has that explosion thing happening. Where do you try to pull that out of? So it sounds like Ross tries to create an environment where that vibe is just in the air, and so it translates into the performances.

Speaker 3 (00:47:39):

For me, it's more of a controlled explosion or a controlled experiment. I try to do it under safety conditions. I guess you want to say

Speaker 4 (00:47:48):

A safety charge?

Speaker 3 (00:47:49):

Yeah, exactly. No, it's just really, but again, it's for me, I've definitely have been known to push people, not in the same way that Ross would do it, but it's just, I'd be like, come on, man. Just again, to just dig deeper and dig deeper, and I don't want perfection. I never want perfection, frigging boring.

Speaker 2 (00:48:14):

When you say dig deeper, what do you mean?

Speaker 3 (00:48:16):

It's just even for the drummers, it's like they'll do a part and it's like, well, that sounds nice, but I'm not really feeling what you're doing. And it's not necessarily hitting harder. It's just a freeing thing, just like, I don't want to hear you thinking about what you're doing. That's more than more it than anything. It's trying to turn your brain off, just do it again. Let's go do it again. And a lot of times, especially now with pro tools, it's so much faster than with tape as far as just no rewind time. I could literally just hit the space bar. No, again, no, again, no, again, just boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And it's like eventually you're just doing it and it's like you stop thinking about what you're doing and you just play. And it's more like that. And it's just like I'll know it when I hear it. It's just a feeling thing. It's just an internal kind of feel that when it feels right to me, it feels right to me.

Speaker 2 (00:49:15):

I used to do this thing where, and it worked really, really well for me, where I would just tell the drummer that I just want them to play the song over and over and over. And when they start to feel like the way you feel, maybe three or four songs into a live show when it's not just adrenaline, but it's like your whole body is there and it feels good and you're loose and you're feeling it. And when you get to that state, that's when we'll record. And it's always better.

Speaker 3 (00:49:55):

It's always better. I mean, now the thing I do a lot, which is really killer, is because the way the studio, my studio is set up. I'm in a two room facility. I have the B room, and I have my control room and three, one big large iso, which is big enough for drum kit, but I don't do it. I like to have, I'm more into ambient drum tones. So the A room has a bigger room, and then there's a hallway, which is designed as an acoustic chamber. So I have a mic down the end of the hallway, but what I do, the A room, there's no sight lines into the A room. So now I run my laptop in screen sharing mode to run pro tools. So I go in the other room and stand in front of the drummer. And just, first of all, it's way more just, it feels like I try to make it just like when we're doing pre-production rehearsal, I'm just in there with the drummer and I'm feeling what he's doing. If I'm standing in front of him and I get that feeling, then that's the right take. It's like if it feels right to me, that's it. And I like to try to keep it natural. So it's not like he's with headphones and he sees me behind a glass or doesn't see me at all, which is even worse. What he's probably going through his brain, what's he thinking? Is it good? Is it not good? I don't know.

Speaker 2 (00:51:11):

Are they making fun of me?

Speaker 3 (00:51:12):

Yeah. And then the voice over the talk back, let's do it again. I'd rather just stand in front of him and just be kind of bopping my head and be like, and looking at and making eye contact. And can even mime right before he's about to do a fill. Don't forget that. Fill in pre-production. Working on a lot of my pre-production is just working with, mainly working with obviously arrangements, but working with the drums and making sure the drum parts all hitting in the right way, our foundation. So again, it's like I literally don't even necessarily listen back to the playback. We'll go back at the end and listen, but even when I'm punching, I'll be just punching in with him, standing in the room and it's like, that felt great. Okay. That's the one. You know what I mean? And punching, it's great because there's really no lag with doing the screen sharing thing.

(00:52:03):

There's barely any lag. So I could punch in, no problem. And I'm running basically my full approaches rig just with using a screen sharing for my laptop. And then when it's come time to overdubs and guitars and stuff, same thing. Basically always want the guitar player to stand and play like he's playing live and they're like, I want to sit down. I'm like, right. You sit down live, right? That's exactly what you do. It's like, does this make any sense? I don't understand why. I mean, I get it. And trust me, the record is very important, especially the way I want to make the records more of an old school approach. It's super important, the record thing, the records are important. They're not just a vehicle to get people to listen to Spotify and then go see you live. It's still very important, the essence of the song. You want to capture that. So stand up when you're playing. It's such a simple concept, but why not?

Speaker 2 (00:53:00):

That takes, I think, a lot of trust and a lot of rapport building with the artists for them to go there with you. And I think especially newer bands where newer bands who might be used to the sitting down and doing things in micro fragments,

Speaker 3 (00:53:20):

Even if you're punching in and doing it in small sections, why not stand? I just don't understand the whole, okay, now we have to make a record. Now let's sit down and make sure everything's perfect, make clinical why. Even just that, just the mindset just sterilizes it, especially the digital age. Anything you could do to make it less sterile, I'm all for.

Speaker 2 (00:53:42):

That's amazing. Is this something you discuss in advance with the bands? We're going to make this sound as explosive and live as possible or,

Speaker 3 (00:53:51):

I mean, yes and no. I've had that. Generally I've had that backfire with me, but for the most part, when I go meet with a potential client with a band, I usually wind up getting the record because I'm just pretty passionate about the way I want things to sound, and I want them just to make the best version of themselves. I don't want to just make like, okay, it's like paint by numbers. Here we go. We track the drums. Now we track the guitars. Now we track, or worse, let's track all the guitars to a program, drums, and then track the drums afterwards. Like, oh God, that doesn't make any sense to me. I don't understand tracking the drums. After you track everything, it doesn't make any sense. Or worse or worse, tracking drums without symbols and then overdubbing the cymbals like, oh my God, really?

Speaker 2 (00:54:38):

So I think the reason that they do that drum's last method, and I have a feeling I know what you're going to say, but the reason I think that they do it that way is because the drummer is unsure of some of the parts. And so they're coming in somewhat under-prepared or where, well,

Speaker 3 (00:54:59):

You know what? I'm going to tell you, be prepared. Be prepared that. Learn your craft. Be prepared. Be prepared before you get in the studio. How do you build a house and then build the basement last you, there's no way. It's impossible. So how would you do that in the recording? Your foundation? The drums is the heartbeat of the whole thing is like everything. I mean, I get it. I understand that people do it, but it's so alien to me. I've done it. I've literally done something just like that. I did that on Devil Driver on the country covers

Speaker 2 (00:55:41):

Record. Why?

Speaker 3 (00:55:42):

Because that's how I was actually hired to do drums des his vocals and mix. Mike and Neil tracked all the guitars and bass at home to program drums, and then Austin and I went in there after the fact and tracked

Speaker 2 (00:55:58):

Drums. Okay, so it was just given to you.

Speaker 3 (00:56:00):

It was given to me that way.

Speaker 2 (00:56:02):

Yeah.

Speaker 3 (00:56:02):

And it's interesting. I would never choose to do that if a band was insistent. Look, the ultimate thing is, and I always tell this, here's the bottom line, the ultimate thing is always what I tell bands. Ultimately, it's your record. It's not my record. I'm not making this about me. I'm making this about you. I will tell you what I think should happen just on not because I know everything, just on all the experience and everything like that.

(00:56:31):

This is, in my opinion, would make the best version of you of your band. Take that for what it is. If you're so insistent that you want to record the drums last, absolutely. I'll record the drums last. Again, it's not about me, and I'll make that the best version of that. My whole thing is to try and just take whatever they want to do and make the best version of whatever that is. If it's within these parameters where the drums are last, then I'll take that. I'm not going to bitch about it. I'm going to just do the best version of that. That's the whole point. So if they want to do it, I'll do it. I'll say, I disagree. I'll be like, I think, and here's why we should do it the other way. But if you want to do it, absolutely. Again, we're in a service oriented business. The client is our boss. They want what they want. If they want to replace all the snare drums with kazoos, I'll be like, I think that doesn't sound very good, but if you want to do that, I will do that.

Speaker 2 (00:57:35):

I think that that's very interesting, and I wish more producers understood that because I think a lot of producers have my way or the highway mentality, and also not just big pros. I see lot we have in our private community that lots of people who are starting their careers, they'll learn these great techniques, and so they want to use them.

Speaker 3 (00:58:02):

Well, again, they're making it about themselves. It's like, look what I can do. And it's like, okay, great. What are you going to now all you have all these tools, what you actually going to do with it? Are you going to actually contribute to something? Are you going to serve the artist or are you just going to serve yourself? And that took me a long time. It took me a good portion of my career.

Speaker 2 (00:58:26):

Well, it takes maturity.

Speaker 3 (00:58:27):

It takes maturity. And like I said, I've been doing this a long time and it's like, I've been doing this since the nineties, and it's like you can't make it about yourself. It's never about yourself. If it's your project and then it's about yourself, that's fine, but it's not your project. If I'm making an original music thing from scratch, then I'm producing, then it's about me. But I'm not doing that. I'm recording another band. I'm producing another band. It's about them.

Speaker 2 (00:58:50):

So that said, being that it's about them, at what point is the vision defined and how do you balance that, I guess? How do you balance that against, I mean, I know that you just said that you'll suggest things and if they are adamant, you'll with it's their record, but how do you balance?

Speaker 3 (00:59:12):

It's hard because there'll still be things that I'll disagree with and I'll be like, listen, are you sure? I really think I really, I'll be almost annoying about it. I'll be like, look, I really think, alright, all right. Eventually, like I said, eventually you're going to have to, they're the client. It's one thing it, it's a lot different now too, and I think almost to the improvement of it, where it's a lot more artist driven than it is label driven, where it's like I used to have to deal with the band, but then I used to have to deal with the management telling me that they want this in a certain direction or the label wanting this in a certain direction. So then I have to, I'm dealing with me creatively as a producer. I'm dealing with the band creatively as an artist, but I'm also dealing with the label pressure from the label. We need a single, we need this, we need that. I mean, I've done major label stuff, a lot of indie stuff, but a fair share of major label stuff, and it's like you still, that sometimes comes into account, but now with artists being much more in control, I think it actually creatively is a lot more free than it used to be.

Speaker 2 (01:00:28):

I think that that's one of the best things about the modern age, but still who wins when you have a situation where the artist and the label have an opposing desire for a song or a mix or for anything.

Speaker 3 (01:00:47):

Yeah, sometimes you have to pick and choose your battles too, because you have to also understand that side of it and the politics of it. If you don't play ball sometimes, then it's like, is the label going to not be more forthcoming with promotion on the record or tour support or, there's definitely a thing that sometimes you have to, even for me, for just between me and the artists, it's like, okay, what's, ultimately, you're still going to piss and moan about one part that you think is wrong, and it's like overall, what's the record? I always talk about baseball as far as a metaphor for life and averages, because baseball is a game of failure, and if you fail seven out of 10 times, you're still basically putting up all star numbers.

Speaker 2 (01:01:38):

Absolutely.

Speaker 3 (01:01:40):

So it's like, okay, what's the overall thing? Are you winning 90% of the time? Great. So overall, what's the overall outcome of the record? It's like, okay, if everybody's so adamant about this one thing and you in your heart know it's not good, but the band's super into it, it's like, dude, they're going to be happy. Then ultimately, what have you done? You've made them happy, which is what you're supposed to do

Speaker 2 (01:02:05):

At the end of the day, that's the most important thing.

Speaker 3 (01:02:08):

At the end of the day, sometimes you realize like, oh, they can't get out of their own. For the most part, everybody you work we work with is. I think now, especially also that bands are a lot more, that is for

Speaker 4 (01:02:22):

Sure,

Speaker 3 (01:02:23):

Compared to back when I was first working with bands when nobody knew anything about recording. Sometimes that's a blessing and a curse when too many people in the band, oh, I record too. I produce bands. It's like, you have a laptop? Okay, cool, but you got to start somewhere. I started on a four track. If I was Eric, Rachel looking at me, oh, you got a four track. It's like, yeah, yeah, sure, kid. If I thought with that attitude, then I wouldn't, maybe I would never have pursued it.

Speaker 2 (01:02:54):

But you still can't have too many cooks in the kitchen.

Speaker 3 (01:02:56):

You can't. No, you can't. And again, like I said, if the band can't get out of their own way, sometimes you have to be like, look, I'm telling you from experience, this is wrong. You guys don't see it yet. Maybe you will down the road, but again, if you want it, I'll do it. I'll passionately plea. I'll be like, I'm really think you're making a grave mistake here, but I will do it, but I'm just telling you I think it's wrong, and that's as far as I can go. What am I going to do? No. Take my ball and go home. They'll take the hard drive. They're like, no, that's it. You're done. Can't do it.

Speaker 2 (01:03:28):

Actually, I worked with the producer once who did that to my band. It sucked.

Speaker 3 (01:03:36):

He took his ball and went home. Really?

Speaker 2 (01:03:38):

Basically. Yeah,

Speaker 3 (01:03:39):

Basically

Speaker 2 (01:03:41):

He didn't want somebody else to master it.

Speaker 3 (01:03:44):

Oh gosh.

Speaker 2 (01:03:45):

We wanted somebody else to master. We had someone in mind. He mixed it and he wanted to master it, and

Speaker 3 (01:03:53):

Generally I think that's a terrible idea.

Speaker 2 (01:03:55):

Yeah, I agree.

Speaker 3 (01:03:56):

Bands asked me to master, do you master? I'm like, no, I don't. I leave that to mastering engineers.

Speaker 2 (01:04:03):

Well, this guy wanted to be the mastering engineer,

Speaker 3 (01:04:07):

Right? But it's just like it's the way bands shouldn't generally for the most part, bands because you need that outside ear and that outside opinion. Sometimes you're so close to it, you don't see it. Same thing for me for mastering. I don't want a master a record, I just mixed because I want someone else to look at it and go, yeah, okay, man, it's a little murkier on the low mids. Okay, clear it up. Listen back. Wow, that sounds great. Awesome. I want someone to look at it from an outside point, an outside view. I want an outside ear to listen to the final thing. What does it need?

Speaker 2 (01:04:42):

I completely agree. Yeah. So this guy, the way he took the ball and went home was that he destroyed the unmastered mixes.

Speaker 3 (01:04:50):

Oh my God, really?

Speaker 2 (01:04:52):

Yep. Yeah. So I've had it happen, but I agree producers should not do that. I mean, we never went with him again, and then that label never hired him again. So,

Speaker 3 (01:05:04):

Well, there you go again.

Speaker 2 (01:05:06):

There's no good outcome from

Speaker 3 (01:05:08):

No good outcome

Speaker 2 (01:05:08):

Behaving that way.

Speaker 3 (01:05:09):

No.

Speaker 2 (01:05:10):

So real quick, because we've been talking for a while, and I don't want to take up the rest of your, we have some questions from our listeners for you and people were stoked that you're coming on.

Speaker 3 (01:05:25):

Cool.

Speaker 2 (01:05:26):

I'd love to ask you some of these. Dave Vol is wondering, how do you accomplish everything? Always sounding so natural, but so insanely tight.

Speaker 3 (01:05:35):

It's just hard work. It's basically it. It's really just, again, it's tight, but it's never edited. Pro tools, grid tight ever. It's never perfect. Just do it till it feels right, until it feels right to my ear and that's it. And again, I try not to look at the screen as much as possible.

Speaker 2 (01:05:58):

Just get great performances.

Speaker 3 (01:06:00):

Get great performances. It always starts with the source.

Speaker 2 (01:06:03):

So Anthony Chana is wondering or saying, I'm a huge fan of Steve's drama sound, especially on the Dylan and Ju Escape Plan architects and Devils sold his Soul records. It would be great if he could talk about his approach, particularly on room mics.

Speaker 3 (01:06:20):

I'm a big fan of room mics. It's really just I, I know other people like Ross for one is, he's the opposite. He's anti room mics. He likes drums as tight as possible, like 70 Style. He's always been into that and I've always been a fan of roomier drums. I like the space and the feel of the room basically pulsing with the beat of the drums and yeah, it's more like that. I use the room mics as a main component of the sound and then a lot of times riding the rooms up and down, especially on drum fills or even a snare fill or something, just like little accent parts. I'll just pop it up a little bit during the mix to make it pop.

Speaker 2 (01:07:05):

Nice. Yeah. Greg Shifflet says, dude, you made so many of my favorite records and definitely made the best sounding hardcore records. Death of Your Perfect World Satisfaction is the death of desire and progression through unlearning are absolutely insane. And the sounds on each are still what I want to hear when I put on any record, try to make that's so strong and aggressive, but still clear and present. Hey, not a question, but nice column.

Speaker 3 (01:07:32):

Hey, thanks Ben. That's awesome.

Speaker 2 (01:07:34):

Scott Bennett, what was working with Story of the Year? What kind of influence did you have in the final product with Wicked Determination? It's a much heavier record than their previous release.

Speaker 3 (01:07:44):

It's a much heavier record. That's the record they wanted to make at the time. It was awesome. I loved working with those guys. I mean, I saw them live leading up to before we made that record, and I was like, they sounded more, they didn't sound really almost anything like Page Avenue, their first record live, they were so much heavier of a band and they loved, they were speaking of what he was talking about, like the hardcore record, especially the singer Dan, huge, hardcore fan, loves Hate read, snap Case, turmoil, all those bands that I worked with back in the late nineties, and they wanted to make a record like that. Some of their songs, there was quite a bit of influence from Snap Case on some of their stuff. And so that was the record they wanted to make at the time. Unfortunately, it didn't sell as much as Page Avenue, but they were stoked on it. Part of the fact that the record didn't sell as well as it did was because we put it out. That was still on Maverick and the label basically folded six months later after we put the record out. They wanted to make a heavy record, and we did. And I stand by it. It's an awesome record.

Speaker 2 (01:08:54):

So here's one by Drake Kent, the Wonder Years album, the Greatest Generation is one of my favorites of all time. Could you walk us through any of the production process, specifically vocals?

Speaker 3 (01:09:05):

Well, recording Dan Soupy, it's a fairly easy process. I mean, I just have to push him a little hard and once he gets going, it's actually pretty simple. He's so emotive in his performance that he doesn't know how to not do that. So it's just capturing the magic. It's just a matter of just hitting it till till it feels right, till it feels great. That's really it.

Speaker 2 (01:09:32):

I sense a common theme in your answers that I just want to point out, which is that the artists you work with bring it on their end, and so of

Speaker 3 (01:09:41):

Course

Speaker 2 (01:09:42):

You capture them bringing it and without the artists bringing it, it's like it seems like that's an integral part of your equation.

Speaker 3 (01:09:51):

Yeah, for sure. But I mean, another thing I've learned over the years, for sure, sometimes you have to have a heavier hand in things, and sometimes the best producing you can do is to know when to sit back and just let it happen and don't feel the need to put your screws to everything. Like, okay, I'm producing it. No, sometimes, man, that was awesome. Leave it the fuck alone. Just guide the process and just get them to the finish line. That's it.

Speaker 2 (01:10:21):

Yeah. I forget who told me this. A great producer said it. A great producer knows when to get out of the way.

Speaker 3 (01:10:29):

Exactly. 100%. And that's again, something took me years to do. I always felt like I'm not doing enough. I'm like, wow, I'm producing it. I'm not doing enough. It's like, no, sometimes you could just, the best producing is to get the fuck out of the way.

Speaker 2 (01:10:44):

Absolutely. So, alright, final question, and this would just be incomplete without asking. This one is from Connor Rising, which is how did you approach tracking on the first Dillinger album? The performances are all so tight, yet very natural and emotional sounding. Did you do any live tracking or build things up? One instrument at a time to a click seems like quite the challenge with their style of music. I love your work, man.

Speaker 3 (01:11:09):

Oh, well, thank you very much. There's no click on the first Dillinger record whatsoever. Miss Machine was the first time we ever used a click, and that was only on think three songs, and the rest of that was no Click as well. Yeah, first record is no, click all to tape. The basic tracks, were not the full band live, but usually just Ben and Chris, the drummer at the time, doing the first run through Live Scratch guitar, a couple of things we kept on the live tracking guitar, but for the most part it was guitars were overdubbed and because the Brian Benoit didn't play a lot on the first record, it was basically all Ben. When we did the running board under the running board ep, which was before that, the mullet burden of those songs, those were tracked live and that was the full band that was a five piece band.

(01:12:10):

Not so much Dmitri, not the vocals, but the four pieces. That was with John Fulton on guitar, and when Adam Dahl before his accident on bass, and that was, we tracked those completely live and then overdub guitars or whatever, but we definitely tracked the full band on that three song ep and calculating Infinity was much different because Fulton was out of the band. Brian Beno had just joined and he wasn't really only had joined right before we made the record. So it was basically all Ben on guitar, Brian on a few quick little things, Ben and me on Bass and Parts, Ben on bass for a lot of it. But then on some things I would take it when I needed more of a bass player kind of feel and I would grab the bass on certain songs, on parts of certain songs. So we kind of tag team the bass on that record. But the basic Track was always Ben, and it was the same for that record and the same thing for Miss Machine. The basic track was always starting with Ben and Chris live in the room together and then built around it.

Speaker 2 (01:13:21):

That's so impressive. That band is just so impressive, I think.

Speaker 3 (01:13:25):

Yeah, they're awesome. When you talk about the language, remember you were talking about we speak that you have a language, you have a vocabulary, and people have asked me over the years, how do you understand Dillinger? How do you understand that music? And I was like, well, I was there from the very beginning, from the very first ep, they built their own musical language and I was there from the inception of the language, so I understood the language. So it never seemed that weird to me.

Speaker 2 (01:13:53):

Makes perfect sense. And I remember when they toured with Mr. Bungle, I think that was 98 or 99.

Speaker 3 (01:13:58):

99, yeah, 99.

Speaker 2 (01:14:02):

Yeah. I went to that to see Bungle because Bungle had been inactive for a long time. And was

Speaker 3 (01:14:08):

That the California record?

Speaker 2 (01:14:10):

Yes, it was on California and the opening band was this band called Dillinger Skate Plan. I was like, eh, I don't want to sit through an opener. Then they started playing and it was just like, oh my God, what

Speaker 3 (01:14:25):

Is going on here?

Speaker 2 (01:14:26):

Yeah. I have never seen anything like this in my life. This is the future. Wow. Yeah, it was mind blowing. It was very, very cool that you're there at the beginning of that. But Steve Evetts, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It's been fantastic talking to you.

Speaker 3 (01:14:44):

It's my pleasure, man. Thank you so much for having me. The

Speaker 1 (01:14:46):

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