Kris Crummett: The Grit of Running a Studio, Deconstructing Dance Gavin Dance, and The End of the Rockstar Era

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast, brought to you by Sure, legendary microphones, cutting edge wireless systems, premium earphones, and headphones. Sure. The most trusted audio brand worldwide. For more information, go to sure.com. And now your host, Eyal Levi.

Speaker 2 (00:00:23):

This show is brought to you by URM Academy, the world's best education for rock and metal producers. You know us for nail the mix, but today I'm here to tell you about Ultimate Drum Production. Our course that's going to completely transform the way you think about and record drums. You're going to be hearing a lot more about it in the coming weeks, but in the meantime, head over to Ultimate Drum Production dot com to learn more. Hello everybody. This podcast is cool because I am in Portland and hanging out with my friend, Mr. Kris Crummett. We figured, shit. Let's do an episode. What I like is that he's already been on the podcast a few times. He's done nail the mix. He's done a fast track with us. He's done a lot of stuff. We are familiar with each other. We're actually filming a new course, but all the introductory stuff is out of the way, which means that unless we want to be really boring, we got to find new stuff to talk about, which means that we can go deeper and that's what we did.

(00:01:27):

And if I'm being honest, sometimes talking about microphones and gear get really, really boring. For me, I think the real stuff is to find out somebody's motivations and what's behind everything that they're doing, because if you don't have a good story and you don't have your tastes very well defined, then I feel like you're just grasping clutching, just aiming, I guess, blindly through an audio desert. I think your taste is what guides you. It's your North star, and it's one of the most important things, a producer or musician, an artist, anybody who creates can develop is that point of view, their unique point of view based on all their experience and their taste. This is what it means to be a true producer, is to use that point of view to help realize somebody else's vision. It's pretty deep when you think about it, but that's what we talk about. Without further ado, I give you Mr. Kris Crummett. Hi.

Speaker 3 (00:02:34):

Hi.

Speaker 2 (00:02:35):

How's it going? Pretty good. Good. Welcome back. Well, actually, I'm in your place.

Speaker 4 (00:02:41):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:02:41):

So welcome back to me, but welcome back to you.

Speaker 4 (00:02:44):

Welcome back to you as well.

Speaker 2 (00:02:46):

Thanks. Thank you. When's the last time we did this? It was like 2015 or 16.

Speaker 4 (00:02:55):

Yep. It would've been 15 or 16.

Speaker 2 (00:02:57):

Wow. I've actually known you a while now.

Speaker 4 (00:03:00):

Well, and then I did. I did a solo podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:03:04):

Yeah. That was like 17 with

Speaker 4 (00:03:05):

Guys. Yep. But it's been a little bit,

Speaker 2 (00:03:08):

Yeah. Well, that time that you hooked up my bootcamp was in 2014.

Speaker 4 (00:03:14):

That was before this studio was built. Yeah, you would've been sitting on my lawn right now,

Speaker 2 (00:03:20):

So that's kind of a messed up reason. You told me about that you had to leave your last studio. Can we talk about that at all?

Speaker 4 (00:03:31):

Oh, well, I mean, yeah, that's not the only reason, but definitely part of it.

Speaker 2 (00:03:36):

Well, so what we're talking about is that just there were unquote undesirables defecating of the parking lot all the time.

Speaker 3 (00:03:48):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:03:49):

It would mess up. I guess you'd have people come by and have to step over that or step in it on their way to their cars and

Speaker 4 (00:04:00):

Just a lot of people camping out and Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:04:06):

I'm super security minded.

Speaker 4 (00:04:08):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:04:09):

Always have been at my old studio. I don't know. I had this crazy ass metal gate and then also reinforced windows to where they could stand a two by four at 185 miles per hour, and then cameras inside, cameras outside, trained German Shepherd, a couple guns like deadbolts on everything. I feel like Florida and Oregon share the crack heads.

Speaker 4 (00:04:36):

There's a lot of crack heads for sure, and there's a lot of people just camping out and guys would be drunk and passed out on the front door. No one was getting in the studio. I mean, we had bars on all the doors. We had cages on the doors, bars on all the windows. No one was going to get into the studio, but there was really no way to fence the parking lot, so it was literally like a weekly car break in sometimes multiple times a week that I was dealing with, and just a lot of stuff that made clients uncomfortable, so I had to get away from that, but that wasn't the only thing. Honestly, there's a lot of factors. I think honestly, the biggest factor aside from that was just the fact that I wanted to own my space, and I was in a position where that's fair enough where I would rather just make an investment instead of paying someone rent. I had no problem doing the rent thing for a long time, but that wasn't going to happen in a place in the city like downtown.

Speaker 2 (00:05:40):

I feel like if you're going to pay someone rent, it better be an ideal situation.

Speaker 4 (00:05:44):

Exactly. And I just needed a little more peace. My clients needed a little more peace.

Speaker 2 (00:05:50):

I feel like anything that makes clients feel uncomfortable for their personal safety, it's not conducive to a very great session. I don't know where I could, that idea. I could be crazy.

Speaker 4 (00:06:03):

Yeah, no, no, no, not at all. I mean, it's super important for people to feel comfortable and allow them to be artistic and not be thinking about real life stuff. I mean, that's part of coming to the studios. It's like a little bit of a work vacation for people in the sense that they need to escape all the things that are preventing them from being artistic and need to just make the art and get the job done, and any of that extra stuff is just getting in the way.

Speaker 2 (00:06:30):

Did you ever think it was a security concern? I mean, you said you had bars in the windows, but were you worried about break-ins at the studio or was it no one even knew it was a studio?

Speaker 4 (00:06:39):

Well, people really didn't know it was a studio for the most part. I've always tried to keep my location off the map, my exact location,

(00:06:47):

And on top of that, it was secure. I mean, we had an alarm system and there was multiple studios, and there was somebody there working pretty much 24 7. There was always somebody there, but that didn't worry me too much. It was just the security of the parking lot and other stuff. Honestly, I think I was more worried about the roof caving in than people breaking in. Used to have nightmares, all the, it was like a flat, why? Well, flat roof in Oregon is just like a rain catcher, and it was a super old sixties, seventies flat roof that I have no idea when the last time it was actually redone and it leaked all the time. I had places in my live room that I just wouldn't put expensive mics because of the possibility of a leak that leaks that kept coming back. I mean, that roof was probably 50% wet patch by the time I left. It was just awful.

Speaker 2 (00:07:47):

I went to a studio in Oakland recently, Oakland, California, and it's one of the nicest studios I've been in, but it was in Oakland, and so for people who aren't familiar, Oakland is a rough area. The security measures that they had in place were huge doors, and the dude who owned it lived there, so he had this bank vault door to get up to his living area, and it was just

Speaker 4 (00:08:16):

Like, that's intense

Speaker 2 (00:08:17):

Bank vaults and serious gates and cameras and the whole nine basically,

Speaker 3 (00:08:25):

Because

Speaker 2 (00:08:26):

They had two SSL rooms, I believe, or maybe one was an API board or something, I don't remember exactly, but basically two huge control rooms with boards, massive live room, amazing facility, just in the middle of a war zone. And so yeah, they protected it like a war zone. He said that he was never really too worried about anything happening, though I don't believe it because all that security means you're worried about something

Speaker 5 (00:08:56):

Happening. Yeah, yeah. Well, you

Speaker 4 (00:08:57):

Don't worry after you have the security, I guess,

Speaker 5 (00:09:00):

But

Speaker 2 (00:09:00):

You should, but not as much. Did you hear what happened at Morrison Sound Studios?

Speaker 4 (00:09:04):

The one in Florida? Yeah, the one in Florida.

Speaker 2 (00:09:06):

Yeah. Yeah, that was crazy. Was

Speaker 4 (00:09:08):

That an intern or something? Or what? Was an intern,

Speaker 2 (00:09:11):

Yeah. But

Speaker 4 (00:09:12):

They got emptied out, right?

Speaker 2 (00:09:14):

Yes, totally. Well, they didn't take the SSL, but they took the power supply. It was someone who took a studio tour. That's right. And when they took the tour, they cased it out, found the weakness, which was the sliding glass door in the back, and then showed up at two in the morning and took everything minus the SSL or the SSLs? I think they had two, but yeah, but the thing is that that shit was all found in a warehouse in North Carolina like a year later.

Speaker 5 (00:09:48):

Oh, wow. I didn't know that.

Speaker 2 (00:09:50):

Yeah, apparently there were other studios stuff in this warehouse.

Speaker 5 (00:09:58):

Gotcha.

Speaker 2 (00:09:59):

Yeah, so these guys were doing this.

Speaker 5 (00:10:01):

It was just a professional operation,

Speaker 2 (00:10:04):

Still

Speaker 5 (00:10:05):

In

Speaker 4 (00:10:05):

Studio

Speaker 2 (00:10:05):

Stuff, but then putting it in a warehouse.

Speaker 4 (00:10:09):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:10:10):

That's weird. Yeah. What you going to do

Speaker 4 (00:10:11):

With it? Did they have an eBay account or something, or Never found any of that stuff?

Speaker 2 (00:10:15):

I don't know about that part.

Speaker 4 (00:10:16):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:10:17):

It just seems to me like a tough business to go into ripping off high-end studio gear because not that many people own high-end studio gear,

Speaker 4 (00:10:29):

And it's unique, and if you're a good studio owner, you've got all your serial numbers and keep all that stuff, all your receipts and everything.

Speaker 2 (00:10:37):

Yeah. And the moment a big studio gets hit, everybody with a studio finds out about it.

Speaker 3 (00:10:43):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:10:43):

Kind of like when that Lama God guitar got stolen. Did you hear about that a few months ago?

Speaker 3 (00:10:48):

No. No.

Speaker 2 (00:10:49):

One of their custom guitars got stolen, and then two days later, I do think it popped up on eBay or something like that. It's kind of amazing.

Speaker 4 (00:11:01):

I don't know what people are thinking when they do that stuff.

Speaker 2 (00:11:04):

Probably not thinking.

Speaker 4 (00:11:05):

Yeah, definitely not thinking, yeah, there's smarter ways to be a criminal.

Speaker 2 (00:11:11):

I think that stealing stuff that's super customized and that someone well-known owns, it's probably not a good idea.

Speaker 4 (00:11:20):

No, no. It's ridiculous. It doesn't make any sense at all.

Speaker 2 (00:11:23):

It's not how I would go about it, but if you saw a picture of the people who took the lambic, God guitar, definitely had that faces of math kind of look.

Speaker 5 (00:11:31):

Yeah, desperate move.

Speaker 2 (00:11:33):

Yeah,

Speaker 5 (00:11:34):

Not a calculated move.

Speaker 2 (00:11:35):

Yeah. I don't think it worked out too well. I mean, have you ever had, you had just clients lift your shit?

Speaker 4 (00:11:46):

I've had some small things disappear here and there.

Speaker 2 (00:11:49):

Half the time when that happened, it was my fault. Just misplaced something.

Speaker 4 (00:11:54):

Yeah, no, I mean, I've had that too for sure, of thinking where could this possibly be unless someone took it and then a year later you're like, how did that get there?

Speaker 2 (00:12:05):

Started hating this one band. I'm sure that one dude who was really weird took it and developing this whole narrative in my head, and then I find it

Speaker 4 (00:12:15):

A

Speaker 2 (00:12:15):

Year later under a mattress.

Speaker 4 (00:12:16):

I try not to do that. My mind will run. Yeah, exactly. But I've definitely, there's been a couple situations where it was very clear that something was taken and who took it, but it's pretty rare. I mean, in 20 years, maybe once or twice, the weirdest one, the weirdest one was there was a time period where, God, my parents don't even know about this. Really. I mean, I guess doubt they know.

Speaker 2 (00:12:47):

I doubt they're going

Speaker 4 (00:12:48):

To listen. They might. I thought that last time I did a podcast and then my mom was like, when did that happen? I don't remember that. And I'm like, oh, mom

Speaker 2 (00:12:58):

Didn't know. Here's another surprise

Speaker 4 (00:12:59):

For you. Here's another one. There was a point where the studio was at my parents' house and the only bathroom was in their house. This was a long, long time ago, and I was working with a client that at the time I didn't know was a heroin addict. I found it out later, but I did find out that literally all of their spoons had been taken was just no spoons. There's just no spoons anywhere in the house, in the studio, or anywhere, and it coincided with this guy leaving.

Speaker 2 (00:13:34):

Did your mom ask you if you had seen the spoons?

Speaker 4 (00:13:37):

Yeah, she knew about that. I don't remember what I said. I'm sure I had a dumb answer for it, but I knew what happened pretty quickly. Wow. I found a couple burnt ones, but in general, and I didn't know, and it was decent silverware too, so I was like, for a long time in my head I was just like, did he pawn 'em somehow or did he just use them? I don't know. Probably. I don't know how you could pawn spoons, but

Speaker 2 (00:14:05):

Well, if he only took the spoons.

Speaker 4 (00:14:07):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:14:07):

It's not like he took all the silverware. If he took only s, he took

Speaker 4 (00:14:10):

All the spoons. I think there was probably only eight spoons to begin with.

Speaker 2 (00:14:13):

Well, I mean, how long? But

Speaker 4 (00:14:14):

Anyways, I knew that one. That's one of the few ones that I knew.

Speaker 2 (00:14:19):

There was

Speaker 4 (00:14:19):

One. He was there for a few weeks.

Speaker 2 (00:14:23):

The most insane one that happened to me was when I had this back surgery in 2012, and so I decided that I wasn't going to record for about a week while I recovered, and so I rented my place out to these other two producers while I lived at my place. So I was like, I'm just going to be in my room on drugs, and you guys can use this. The only rule is no strangers, so guess what rule They broke. So I think when I went for the follow-up, I had the surgery, and then a few days later I had to go in for a follow-up. When I went to the follow-up, that's when they brought some stranger over who was the mentor, mentor for the artist that was recording, and that guy, I guess saw the mike collection and he took a U 87 that didn't even belong to me. It belonged to

Speaker 6 (00:15:22):

Ko.

Speaker 2 (00:15:23):

I had the Mike locker at my house, so it had my Mike's and Kos, mikes and, well, some of his, they were mainly mine and Jason's, and the U 87 was Jason's. So it wasn't even my shit, which made it even worse, and I only discovered it because two weeks later I went to do a session and I couldn't find a U 87. I called Jason, I was like, do you have the U 87? No. It's like, okay, I'll find it. I didn't let him know I was freaking the fuck out. Looked everywhere. No, U 87. I was like, it can't had to have disappeared during this session. That's the only thing that happened, and I used it right before that. So I called the two producers up and I was like, Hey, do you guys use the U 80 sevens? There's one missing. They were like, yeah, but we put them back. It's like, well, they're not here. Well, one of them's not

Speaker 3 (00:16:21):

Here.

Speaker 2 (00:16:21):

So they came back and were white faced.

Speaker 3 (00:16:25):

They

Speaker 2 (00:16:25):

Were really scared, and they looked under the couch and tore everything up and couldn't find it. I was like, did anybody come over that wasn't supposed to come over?

Speaker 3 (00:16:37):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:16:38):

Yeah. This one guy, but he was just an old guy. He wouldn't have taken it. So it turns out he took it and he denied it at first. So what I did was I told them that they were planning on coming back to finish, and so their artists had left his instruments there. So I told them that either they get me the mic back within 24 hours, or all the instruments that belong to this artist are getting sold to pay for a new U 87, and they're not getting their files

Speaker 3 (00:17:14):

Because

Speaker 2 (00:17:14):

They didn't back them up or take them with them. It showed up.

Speaker 3 (00:17:17):

Yeah,

Speaker 4 (00:17:18):

Right.

Speaker 2 (00:17:19):

Showed up within three hours. So that

Speaker 4 (00:17:23):

Sucks. It sucks that that's what it takes for people to be honest, or people to sort things out from their mistakes.

Speaker 2 (00:17:32):

I didn't want to resort to that,

Speaker 4 (00:17:34):

But you have to. That's an expensive mic. That's not an SM 57. It's not like, and it wasn't even mine. Oh, it's like 50 bucks. Okay, whatever. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:17:44):

I would've let it go if it was a 57, even if it was an SM seven B, I would've probably let it go. Just it's not worth possibly being wrong when making an accusation like that

Speaker 4 (00:17:57):

Over

Speaker 2 (00:17:58):

$300, but 3000

Speaker 4 (00:18:01):

Big difference.

Speaker 2 (00:18:01):

Yeah, big, big difference. 3000 that don't even belong to me. So it was something I was into care of, which just made it that much worse. But yeah, it showed up three hours later in a grocery bag, but it showed up.

Speaker 4 (00:18:20):

Man, that's ridiculous.

Speaker 2 (00:18:22):

Yeah. That musician dude couldn't look me in the face. He was doing the averted face thing the

Speaker 3 (00:18:27):

Whole time.

Speaker 2 (00:18:29):

Man, that whole thing made me feel really weird and uncomfortable too. You hear about stories like that where someone ends up getting shot over something of that kind of value. You ask for the thing back, and then it turns into one of those stories where some sort of dispute between business partners and ends up in someone getting shot. And in Florida who, I mean, it sounds like a Florida

Speaker 5 (00:19:01):

Story,

Speaker 2 (00:19:02):

So

Speaker 4 (00:19:03):

Right.

Speaker 2 (00:19:03):

Yeah. So protect your shit is the moral of the story.

Speaker 4 (00:19:07):

No, I know. I can't imagine the stress of having a full-time studio for hire.

Speaker 2 (00:19:13):

Yeah, it sucked. Well, after that, I installed the cameras and that changed everything, and I let people know. I would show them the cameras and also just hint that there were hidden ones, which there were, and it felt like a dick saying that stuff at first, but it was like, it's going to be awkward for five minutes when I threatened them with the cameras, but then they'll just know and we'll never have to talk about it again.

Speaker 4 (00:19:45):

And if people don't understand, then they're probably not the people that you want there.

Speaker 2 (00:19:51):

Yeah. I did not enjoy having to bring that up though with new clients, but I would just, as part of a tour of the place, I would just be like, there's that, and there's that. So live room, we got

Speaker 3 (00:20:05):

Cameras

Speaker 2 (00:20:06):

And a couple hidden cameras, and here's the mic. Just toss it in there. Yeah, exactly. My dog will bite if you take.

Speaker 4 (00:20:16):

Yeah, man,

Speaker 2 (00:20:17):

U 87.

Speaker 4 (00:20:18):

I think I'm more afraid of your dog than the guns, dude. She's so nice.

Speaker 2 (00:20:23):

I'm sure she is. I would make people afraid of her, just on principle, but she's a total sweetheart. Never bit a client.

Speaker 5 (00:20:34):

That's good.

Speaker 2 (00:20:35):

No, I actually got her trained to not bite clients. That was also one of my greatest fears was having a German Shepherd Mall client.

Speaker 4 (00:20:47):

Yeah, could happen. You've got new people coming in all the time

Speaker 2 (00:20:51):

And idiots, or some dudes have this phobia of dogs where they're just petrified the moment they see a dog, they're just petrified, and that makes a dog perk up and see that. It's like

Speaker 4 (00:21:10):

Food I know, or something a little bit. One of those people.

Speaker 2 (00:21:14):

Did you have a bad dog experience?

Speaker 4 (00:21:17):

Not the same as most people that are justified to have a fear of dogs,

Speaker 2 (00:21:24):

Just not a big

Speaker 4 (00:21:25):

Fan. No. I actually have no problem with dogs, and I'm a lot better around dogs now. As a 30-year-old. Yeah, I had a weird dog growing up, but it wasn't that bad. And yeah, I don't know. I had a friend who was attacked by a dog. I think that was the, watching him get bit in the stomach by a dog when we were like, whatever, fifth, sixth grade. That was a little rough. I think that was part of it.

Speaker 2 (00:21:56):

I think people don't appreciate that they have this predator living in their house. I bought a cage for mine. I needed to put her in it this one time. Recently it was going to be gone for 16 hours and 16 hours is way too long to let her roam the house. She had fuck it up. She bent it like the incredible Hulk. It's amazing what they can do when they want, when they're left to their own devices and they're just not trying to please you, but they're just being animals. They're brutal.

Speaker 4 (00:22:31):

And I think my thing, part of my fear for a long time was just not, it wasn't about not trusting dogs. It was about not trusting people,

Speaker 6 (00:22:39):

And

Speaker 4 (00:22:39):

I just didn't trust people to take care of their dog or train their dog. So if I see a dog, if I don't feel this way as much now, I spent a lot of time, I had a friend who bought a bigger dog six or seven years ago, and that dog was awesome and got me a lot more comfortable around bigger dogs. That could be the kind of dog that could just rip your neck off if they wanted to, but I just didn't trust people. If I see your dog and I see a dog that could be potentially violent, it's like, I don't know what, I don't know if you trained them.

Speaker 2 (00:23:18):

I think that's fair,

Speaker 4 (00:23:19):

And I don't feel that way as much now because I just feel more comfortable around bigger dogs. But it was definitely not so much a fear of dogs as a fear of negotiating shitty owners. Yeah, shitty owners. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:23:32):

I think that's fair. That's fair, actually, and accurate. That's one thing that I've noticed because we put so much time into training, my dog put a lot of money into it, sent her to that bootcamp

Speaker 3 (00:23:45):

For

Speaker 2 (00:23:46):

Six weeks and continually re-up the training

Speaker 3 (00:23:48):

And

Speaker 2 (00:23:49):

Really put a lot of money and effort into making sure that she was good and she's great, but because of that, I see what people don't do or I see them reinforcing bad behaviors or things like that, and it's like, yeah, you are a shitty owner

Speaker 6 (00:24:09):

And

Speaker 2 (00:24:10):

Your dog is either going to get killed or hurt somebody or just annoy the shit out of

Speaker 3 (00:24:17):

Everybody.

Speaker 4 (00:24:18):

Yeah. I

Speaker 2 (00:24:19):

Think that's accurate.

Speaker 4 (00:24:20):

I know. Yeah, some dogs just, yeah, we have neighbors that they're better now, but they have four dogs that they just left outside all day and all night, and it was just,

Speaker 2 (00:24:32):

That sounds like a terror.

Speaker 4 (00:24:34):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:24:35):

It would probably terrorize kids and

Speaker 4 (00:24:37):

Oh, yeah, barking at everybody all the time. And it's not the dog's fault. It's not their fault that they're fricking locked outside.

Speaker 2 (00:24:44):

No. I remember when I was a kid biking or they

Speaker 4 (00:24:48):

Weren't trained or that they,

Speaker 2 (00:24:49):

No, it's not the

Speaker 4 (00:24:49):

Dog's fault. Don't know right from wrong. It's a fricking dog.

Speaker 2 (00:24:52):

But did you ever have this when you were a kid, you'd be biking in a neighborhood and there'd be the one dog that was just

Speaker 4 (00:24:59):

Yeah, you'd cross the street.

Speaker 2 (00:25:00):

Yeah. And you'd know that one dog that

Speaker 4 (00:25:03):

Was

Speaker 2 (00:25:03):

Just

Speaker 4 (00:25:04):

Big dog short fence,

Speaker 2 (00:25:06):

And he might come at you, so anytime you would get near the house, you'd have to think about whether or not you'd have to scan to see if that dog's around or what's going on. Just always calculating if that dog is nearby, if he's going to notice you, what the fuck's going to

Speaker 4 (00:25:25):

Happen. Yep. I had a dog like that. That was on my way to elementary school and just basically anywhere I went in the house I grew up for sure. Or just a huge dog, short fence, old fence, always up on top of it. Could easily jump it if it wanted to. Never did, never actually chased me, but always,

Speaker 2 (00:25:50):

It's not so bad. Never actually got chased still.

Speaker 4 (00:25:52):

No. I mean I had, but I actually had buy a different dog, but yeah, the dog that bit. My friend jumped a fence and just went for it. Yep. How bad was it? It was pretty bad. He went to the hospital. I mean, he was fine, but it definitely punctured his, he punctured his bowel.

Speaker 2 (00:26:13):

Oh, damn,

Speaker 4 (00:26:14):

Dude. It was crazy. Yeah, it was straight up. Wow. Yeah, it was bad.

Speaker 2 (00:26:18):

Like a serious bite.

Speaker 4 (00:26:20):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:26:20):

I had a dog that bit my brother in the stomach once, but he deserved it. I have a brother that's 10 years younger, and when he was five or six or eight or something, he was just a hellion and he would put on full hockey gear or a baseball catcher uniform and then just go fuck with a

Speaker 4 (00:26:44):

Dog and

Speaker 2 (00:26:45):

Try to make it crazy. Yeah, I

Speaker 5 (00:26:47):

Don't like that.

Speaker 2 (00:26:48):

It wouldn't be, it's not funny, but funny at the same time because he's eight years old and he's crazy.

Speaker 3 (00:26:56):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:26:57):

Yeah. In full gear and just like, I mean, I don't think that the dog was having a bad time. They play rough, but then one day he got on the phone and was just talking on the phone and the dog just came up and bit him in the stomach out of nowhere. I was like, thought he was playing. Yeah, you kind of had that one coming.

Speaker 5 (00:27:15):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:27:16):

I was like, you can't be mad.

Speaker 5 (00:27:18):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:27:19):

You had that one coming.

Speaker 5 (00:27:22):

That's

Speaker 2 (00:27:22):

Rough. Yeah, full baseball catcher uniform just to play with the dog. Yeah, including, well, dude, he'd go hard.

Speaker 3 (00:27:33):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:27:34):

I had this one client who told me that his dad was a real savage and that he had a German shepherd, and once a year he would, and he swore up and down that this is true once a year, the dad, just to get in touch with his primal nature would get in the cage with the dog and fuck with it until it would attack him, which took a while because the German Shepherd's not going to attack its owner. It takes a lot, so it would take a good 15 minutes of prodding the dog until it finally went full beast, and then they would fight once a year. It was like he swore up and down and then his band members swore up and down. They're like, this guy's dad is a total savage motherfucker.

Speaker 5 (00:28:30):

That's insane.

Speaker 2 (00:28:30):

Yeah.

Speaker 5 (00:28:31):

Yeah. That's wild. That sounds terrible.

Speaker 2 (00:28:34):

Annual German Shepherd cage fight.

Speaker 5 (00:28:36):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:28:37):

No,

Speaker 5 (00:28:37):

Thank you.

Speaker 2 (00:28:38):

I would never in a million years do that. You couldn't pay me enough money to do that. Nope. So what have you been up to,

Speaker 4 (00:28:47):

Aside from not having a dog?

Speaker 2 (00:28:49):

Yeah, aside from that,

Speaker 4 (00:28:50):

I love dogs though. I do like dogs don't peg me. As a anti dog person, I have no problem with dogs.

Speaker 2 (00:28:57):

Anti dog people are weird. And

Speaker 4 (00:28:59):

I'm an anti badd dog owner. Same here as everyone should be. And there'd be no bad dog owners. No. I've just been making records, man. A lot of stuff coming out later this year. Had some cool stuff that was on hold for a while that came out earlier this year that I was stoked about. Oh man. I'll probably forget some stuff, but the new guest Scared record that came out this year on Fearless, I was really stoked about, because we recorded that a couple years ago, and for one reason or another it got put on hold. I had few

Speaker 2 (00:29:38):

Records like that. That's always a bummer.

Speaker 4 (00:29:40):

Yeah, it was wild. But I'm really glad it's out because it's an awesome record and it got really good reception.

Speaker 2 (00:29:45):

Is the band, how's the band?

Speaker 4 (00:29:47):

They are on hiatus currently. I don't know what the status is, but,

Speaker 2 (00:29:53):

Well, I don't know if it's related to the record being on hold, but that's a band Destroyer.

Speaker 4 (00:30:00):

Yeah, I think it was the other way around. In this case, the record was on hold. There was some inner things happening with the band that I won't get into. That's not my business, but I'm just glad Smart Label. Well, yeah, I mean, I think just to, yeah, there was some stuff that happened and so it made more sense to hold off on the release on the business side of things, but I'm glad it's out. That's all that matters. I'm stoked that record's out a new dance, Gavin Dance single called Head Hunter that came out this year and has an amazing video. Super, super cool. I mixed the new issues record this year, and they have a new single called Tapping Out that just came out produced by Howard Benson. It's a super cool record, just mixed the new Tiny Moving Parts album that is coming on hopeless, really cool band from Minnesota, just like three piece tapping guitar, guitar player sings and shreds at the same time type of stuff, just mixed their record. They just had a single come out. And then I've been writing and working with a band called Ashland. That's really awesome. That stuff will probably come out later this year. A bunch of cool stuff, some stuff I can't talk about, which is a bummer, but it'll be when it comes out, I will, and it's rad, and I'm sure there's stuff I'm forgetting that's important.

Speaker 2 (00:31:28):

Can we talk about Dan Scout and dance for a second? Yeah. That band is weird, and I don't mean that in a bad way, but they're just an odd band.

Speaker 4 (00:31:36):

Yeah, they're an outlier for sure. They're their own thing,

Speaker 2 (00:31:39):

Isn't it strange how big they are considering how strange their music is?

Speaker 4 (00:31:45):

Yeah. I mean, it's not really strange to me they, because

Speaker 2 (00:31:49):

What part's not strange to you?

Speaker 4 (00:31:51):

The fact that they're popular because they've been a slow grower for so long.

Speaker 2 (00:31:56):

Fair enough.

Speaker 4 (00:31:56):

They're one of those bands that I don't know. I think about what our expectations are now for success and how things worked in the nineties or before, or even the early two thousands where bands could keep putting out records and if it wasn't a massive record, the label would still put out another record. And there were bands that, there were some weird bands that are popular or were popular at

Speaker 2 (00:32:28):

That time, Mr.

Speaker 4 (00:32:29):

Bun. Yeah, exactly.

(00:32:30):

Yeah. So there's stuff like Prius and Mr. Bungle that, yeah, their first record had a lot of followers and stuff. Same with dance, Gavin. Dan's first record was decently popular within a certain scene, but they just kept making records and cool records that were true to who they were, and the population just kept growing. And because Dance, Gavin Dance never really strayed from who they were while constantly changing three vocalists, but they still kept an identity and never really made a fast grab for cash or anything. And I think that paid off for them because they never lost fans. They just gained fans. And they also, aside from that, the part that is weird, that is why they're successful, doesn't seem weird to me, is that they put out, what, nine new albums in 10 years or something like that, 2007, 12 years, they've put out nine

Speaker 2 (00:33:29):

Albums. Wow. That's prolific

Speaker 4 (00:33:30):

And good albums. None of them are phoned in. They're all good albums. The band has over a hundred songs that they can play. So they've just been constantly putting out, they're kind of like a blend of the new and the old, because the other thing that we all know now is that constant content is really

Speaker 2 (00:33:46):

Important,

Speaker 4 (00:33:47):

And if any band has had constant new content, it's that band.

Speaker 2 (00:33:50):

I guess that makes perfect sense. And those bands from the nineties, like Primus and Bungle, first of all, let It just Be Said. They were on major labels also is a big part.

Speaker 3 (00:34:02):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:34:02):

They were. How crazy is that? But they were on major labels and also, yeah, those bands also, they never really lost fans and to this day I don't think they really lost fans and they kept putting out stuff that was different.

Speaker 4 (00:34:17):

Some

Speaker 2 (00:34:17):

Of them took longer breaks than others, but

Speaker 4 (00:34:20):

They were true to themselves

Speaker 2 (00:34:21):

Always.

Speaker 4 (00:34:22):

Even when stuff was different, it was still those bands and the identity was there for sure.

Speaker 2 (00:34:28):

Which is actually kind of crazy if you consider how some bands can change their sound 15% and people are like, you lost

Speaker 3 (00:34:35):

Your

Speaker 2 (00:34:35):

Identity, you sold out. And then some bands can do 180 style shift and people accept it. It still feels like them. What do you think that is?

Speaker 4 (00:34:48):

I think it's the honesty behind it. Fair enough. And I hate to say it because I do think so. I don't mean honesty as in honest lyrics and honest stuff like that. I think the reason you have to change, I think the reason it works is that, and of course there's always exceptions to the rule, but a lot of times the reason it works is because it's really what the artist is feeling in their heart. Sound wise, this is what we want to do and we believe in it. It's not, you can say, Hey, I want to go from being a death core band and I want to write pop songs. And you could put out something that Death Corps fans are like, this is pretty fucking cool actually, because I like the way this guy's brain works. I like, you know what I mean?

(00:35:39):

I don't know if this has ever actually happened or could really happen, but it's just an example of where if you like the way an artist's brain works, if they're doing something that's true to their own art, there's a good chance you're still going to like it. But what happens is that even sometimes people think they're being honest, artists think they're being honest and they'll go, Hey, we're tired of being poor. We want a quote unquote radio hit. We want something that benefits us financially. When you start worrying too much about the financial stuff, you can sit and write and honest song lyrically and melodically, but if you're motivated by money, a lot of times I think fans hear that, whether they know that's what they're hearing or not, I think they hear a little bit of people being a little bit dishonest to themselves about what they want.

(00:36:32):

Or sometimes it just, there's other things, man. I think one of the biggest things, I don't know if there's something else you want to say about that, but what I think of a lot of times when fans go, oh, that band sold out. What happened to the one record? I like, why don't they sound like that anymore? And you look at a band and you go, oh yeah, they just got Poppy, or Oh, they got this or that. A lot of times it's not the label, it's not the producer. It's not the singer. A lot of times what happens is bands lose their main songwriter or one of the main influences that was part of what people really liked. And that changes and it changes the sound and bands shift. And that happens a lot where

Speaker 2 (00:37:16):

I know that all too well, yeah,

Speaker 4 (00:37:17):

You look at certain bands and that happens. But then also they end up doing really well with this new guy that isn't part of the history of the band,

(00:37:28):

But is super talented and helps elevate the band in a different way to a different fan base in a different direction. It still works out for the band, but fans are sitting there and they just go, oh, the band sold out. We don't like this. They do that. It's dishonest. And to me, that's not dishonest. That's just life change and that's stuff that, so I just don't want people to get me saying, oh, we totally changed, or Fans are going to like it. As long as people are being honest, there's other factors that factor into that. And a lot of times it's member changes and

Speaker 2 (00:37:59):

Dynamic

Speaker 4 (00:37:59):

Changes,

Speaker 2 (00:38:00):

Changes to make a huge, huge difference. So I used to, before I understood this, I mean I was always loyal to the lineups. I liked when I was a kid of bands and I always kind of felt like new lineups were, I wasn't watching the real band. I loved, I thought it was cool, but not that cool.

Speaker 3 (00:38:22):

I was the same for

Speaker 2 (00:38:24):

Sure. And then for a while I was like, why should it matter? I'm just being petty. But now I don't think I was being petty. I think I was actually on the right path because a certain lineup creates a certain sound that's based on the people that are there at that point in time. And then when you change those people, it's not that what comes after is necessarily bad, sometimes it is, but not necessarily

Speaker 5 (00:38:49):

Some ways it could better,

Speaker 2 (00:38:52):

But it's not the same. Doesn't mean better or worse. It's just not the same. So I guess if you connected with something, then if something else is not the same, I guess it's just not the same.

Speaker 4 (00:39:06):

Yeah. Yeah. I agree 100%. And I think I felt that way. And I used to, when I was way younger, when I was in my teens, I would say things like, ah, I don't like this band anymore. Or just feel like I lost allegiance to certain bands because of member changes and stuff and other bands. Not, sometimes it isn't that big of a deal. But the thing I realized over time, even in my early mid twenties is that I'm not even really, especially now being a little bit older, I don't consider myself a fan of bands as much as I'm a fan of albums

(00:39:52):

And people are like, what's your favorite band? And it's really hard for me to pick any band ever that made that I could say every album they made was amazing. They exist. There's bands I feel that way about, but I think in reality, I'm a fan of certain moments in time, and it was made sure it was made by the band, but it was really more about a group of this certain group of people or even just a certain thing they were feeling or did at the time. It doesn't even have to be member changes. You can two records of Banded back to back and nothing before and nothing after. I mean, I feel that way a lot about a lot of bands I, and so I can kind of consider Myselfs more a fan and change producers or just things change, literally

Speaker 2 (00:40:43):

Stop doing drugs.

Speaker 4 (00:40:44):

You stop doing drugs. I mean, honestly, I just feel like, or

Speaker 2 (00:40:47):

Start doing drugs

Speaker 4 (00:40:49):

Or start doing drugs or just like maybe it wasn't the band that I loved and it was just this thing that happened a moment in time

(00:40:59):

Mean. So the other thing that plays into that I learned as a producer and someone who's around the music business for a long time when I was younger, I never understood why. I noticed that I always liked bands first or second record or whatever their first popular record was, was always the one I ended up liking the most. And at first I remember thinking it was because it was the record. I was force fed first. And then as I started working around artists and working in the music industry, I realized that I think a lot of times I liked the first record that got, because that record had so much time to be written and developed. And a lot of those songs on band's first records are little pieces and chunks of things that people thought of their whole fricking life. Like that first album or the second or the first big album a lot of times is all these little tidbits of ideas from your whole fricking childhood.

(00:41:58):

And you'd put everything into that first album, and then you go on tour for two years and you never get a break, and then they go make another album and then you make another album. And a lot of bands succeeded and do a good job. But I think I realized that I just was a fan of that point in time and where those people were as human beings and what they did together. And not always as much as I love that guy's guitar playing, so I'll listen to anything he does. It was more just the how everything came together.

Speaker 2 (00:42:28):

If you're like most producers, you're dialing in drum sounds the old fashioned way by trial and error, swapping out drums, heads and mics until you finally find something that works oftentimes for several exhausting and tedious days. Sounds familiar. And I guess I could be exaggerating by saying finding something that works. Sometimes you're just plinking around forever and never find anything that works. But you know what? It does not have to be painful. Ultimate Drum Production is our course that teaches you the scientific method for dialing in the perfect drum sound on the very first try. That's correct. The first try, it explains in extreme detail, the sonic character of every single component of drum sound with exhaustive profiles of every kind of drum head, shell, material bearing edge and hoop, as well as ridiculously detailed tutorials on Mike's selection, placement, and room choice. And when you understand drum tone at such a fundamental, insanely deep level, it's like having a set of tone Legos that you can use to easily build the sound you hear in your head. You don't need to guess and check, you just assemble the building blocks wherever you want to find out more and get access to this incredible course, head over to Ultimate Drum Production dot com and we'll see you in class. I think it's a combination of what you just said, the tidbits of all the best stuff put together over years, and then also a little bit of experience. So it's usually not the first record.

(00:44:09):

Sometimes it's like the second or third usually. I mean, sometimes it's the first record to come out on a label, but it's generally not the first thing the band ever did.

Speaker 4 (00:44:18):

No. Or is people by themselves.

Speaker 2 (00:44:20):

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 4 (00:44:22):

And there's a honeymooning period that's happening there too.

Speaker 2 (00:44:25):

Exactly. A

Speaker 4 (00:44:25):

Lot of times.

Speaker 2 (00:44:26):

So the band, it's a combination of things. It's like the perfect time for all these ideas that are

Speaker 4 (00:44:33):

Coming together. It's perfect Cooking time is the exact way to put it.

Speaker 2 (00:44:36):

Yeah. Plus experience of the band to where they aren't green anymore and then they still have that fire inside that doesn't, because success will, sometimes it's not that it kills your fire, but I think when you become successful, sometimes you lose your fire for the thing that made you successful because you conquer it because you conquered

Speaker 6 (00:45:03):

It

Speaker 2 (00:45:03):

And you're ready to move on to something else that's very natural. So I think they still have that original fire, something to prove plus what you said all those years of putting those ideas together and they're not green anymore. It's just like the perfect storm. It's usually album two, three or four of notice, usually not one.

Speaker 4 (00:45:26):

Yeah, sometimes.

Speaker 2 (00:45:27):

Sometimes

Speaker 4 (00:45:28):

It depends. It depends on, I'm sure it depends on the situation. I do a lot of first albums for certain bands, but they were definitely bands where they're not like 17 year olds, they're like 25 year olds that were in other bands and had other failures and had experiences and somehow just ended up in the right place, the right time to make the good record. Even though it was under that label, under that name of band, it was the first of their technical first record. But you find out like, oh, this dude was in another band with a bass player for seven years or

Speaker 2 (00:46:08):

Lag. Oh yeah, there's a big band like that now. Have you heard of Bad Wolves?

Speaker 4 (00:46:13):

I've heard of them,

Speaker 2 (00:46:13):

I

Speaker 4 (00:46:14):

Assume.

Speaker 2 (00:46:15):

I mean, it's not like my style of stuff, but they're very, very good at what they do. And I'm friends with a lot of 'em, have known a lot of 'em for years. But drummer was in Devil Driver for 10 years. Guitar player was in, God forbid, for 10 years, their singer has been in lots of bands. So these are all very, very seasoned guys who have made lots of records and been on lots of tours. And so they put this band together and their first record has blown up, but I mean, it's not really their first time making a record. It's like their seventh or more combined. They've made tons of records and successful records too. So it is not really their first record.

Speaker 5 (00:47:06):

Yeah, exactly. Yep.

Speaker 2 (00:47:08):

Only under that name.

Speaker 5 (00:47:09):

Yep.

Speaker 2 (00:47:10):

Do you think that something you said was interesting? So sometimes you would lose your interest in a band based on a change, but earlier we were talking about Dance, Gavin dance becoming more successful even through changes. What do you think that's all about?

Speaker 4 (00:47:28):

I think there's a lot. I think there's a lot of things. I mean, I think part of it is, I mean, I'm sure part of it for the band is the rejuvenation with the, okay, new singer, we can write differently for how this person sings. And

Speaker 2 (00:47:51):

Sometimes that's

Speaker 4 (00:47:52):

Nightmare. It's like a little bit of a reinvention. Sometimes it's a nightmare. But they've done a good job of pairing themselves with the right people. And also I think honestly, Tillion working with Tillion, his solo stuff and just working with him in other bands, he is an amazing songwriter and musician on his own. So I think there's a mutual respect there

(00:48:15):

That, not that any of the other singers, I mean all that band singers are super talented, but I think their third singer, Tillion was actually the ultimate pairing with that band. And I think that Tillion joining the band has brought even more success for that band than I think they could even imagine that they wouldn't have with any other singer. And I think they just leveled up in a way that was bizarre and just made the right moves at the right time. And bringing Tillion in was awesome. And the other thing, and now they're on 1, 2, 3, 4, they've done four records with Tillian now. And I can say for sure Will one of the main songwriters, the guitar player and Tillian, are two guys that just can't stop writing music. They write so much music because they're just like, they emit musical ideas and so found a soulmate basically.

(00:49:25):

And so it's really good because, and all the other dudes are totally immersed in music as well. They all play music for a living and they're all in other bands and just play music nonstop. But I think one of the biggest things is Will and Tillian being song machines in a positive way, that they just have never ending awesome ideas that just keeps good songs coming. I've met very few people, either of them, and the fact that the two of them are in a band together just is bananas and why they can write songs so quick. I read sometimes you'll see New Dance Gavin Dance single, and then before it's even out half the Twitter comments are like, you just put out an album, don't make this one shitty. Don't just shit out another album. And then

Speaker 2 (00:50:22):

It's like, have we ever done that?

Speaker 4 (00:50:23):

Yeah, exactly. And it's like they make an album every year. They never just shit out an album like You, like the last album, which was number seven. It's funny how that is, and then they never do. They put anything out subpar. It's always awesome, but it's cool and it's unique. They're definitely outliers.

Speaker 2 (00:50:44):

So that reminds me of the, like you said before, the modern version of Primus Mr. Bal type bands. Even like Tool maybe, but

Speaker 4 (00:50:55):

Tool is more comparable to me.

Speaker 2 (00:50:57):

Yeah. One of those

Speaker 4 (00:50:59):

Bands not as weird as Prius or Mr. Bal.

Speaker 2 (00:51:02):

No, Mr. Bal and Primus are fucking weird,

Speaker 4 (00:51:05):

But they are cult following those two

Speaker 2 (00:51:07):

Bands

Speaker 4 (00:51:08):

For That's what I mean. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:51:09):

No, I mean dance game and dance is pretty weird, but as not like Mr. Bal is super vulgar and fucked up. Yeah, some of those lyrics on that first album are holy shit.

Speaker 4 (00:51:23):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:51:24):

It's next level.

Speaker 4 (00:51:26):

It's wild for sure.

Speaker 2 (00:51:27):

Yeah. They're not like that, but I still count them in the non-normal music that got big somehow. But the thing is on the tool thing and on the topic of new versus old, so Tool notoriously has taken forever between records.

Speaker 4 (00:51:48):

True.

Speaker 2 (00:51:49):

Apparently there's another, it's a

Speaker 4 (00:51:50):

Bad comp.

Speaker 2 (00:51:51):

Apparently there's another one coming

Speaker 4 (00:51:54):

Nine years later, or no, was

Speaker 2 (00:51:57):

10,000 days the last record? No. Yeah, 2005 or oh six.

Speaker 4 (00:52:00):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:52:01):

So longer. But that one also took a long time between that one and the one

Speaker 4 (00:52:06):

Before Walter Rolls.

Speaker 2 (00:52:07):

Yeah,

Speaker 4 (00:52:07):

Right. And Inma was like 97,

Speaker 2 (00:52:10):

But people were okay with that. I wonder if a band now that has the cult following, if Dance Gavin Dance was like, we're taking a break for five years or six years or something, would their crowd still care in five or six years? The tool crowd would,

Speaker 4 (00:52:30):

I think they would. I feel like they would just because with the tool thing, people just want more, and with Dance Gavin Dance, people still want more. And even though they're expecting it quickly, I think they're the rare kind of band that would really would have just as big of an album if they waited five years. I could be way wrong. I mean the market is so different now. Seems like you're right. Honestly, I'm not even sure how big, I'll be curious to see how big this tool record is. We talk about it, I remember how big tool was, but I'm just curious to see how it charts how their sales actually me's going to care.

Speaker 2 (00:53:16):

Some people will, not nobody, I don't mean nobody, but nobody compared to

Speaker 4 (00:53:21):

The

Speaker 2 (00:53:22):

Biggest band in the world status. Will they still be biggest band in the world status?

Speaker 4 (00:53:27):

Yeah. I don't know.

Speaker 2 (00:53:28):

I don't either. I'm actually very curious about it because I think about this new versus old stuff a lot, and I've always kind of felt like the old bands are immune ferment to a degree. If they got to a certain level before the industry changed, they could kind of coast, not coast, but they'll be all right. Like Dream Theater for instance. Never a fan of theirs, but I've always paid attention to them. They've just got in bigger and bigger.

Speaker 4 (00:54:00):

Bigger, yeah, they're very loyal. Following.

Speaker 2 (00:54:02):

Yeah, exactly. But it's also because they were big before the shift, and so they've been insulated from it. But I wonder if a band that got big before the shift took 13 years off if people would still care

Speaker 4 (00:54:20):

That got big after the Shift?

Speaker 2 (00:54:21):

No, that got big before the Shift, but Big.

Speaker 4 (00:54:25):

Oh, I see what you're saying. Like a band

Speaker 2 (00:54:27):

That was so tool,

Speaker 4 (00:54:27):

Like the tool thing. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:54:28):

Like biggest band in the world status.

Speaker 4 (00:54:30):

I have no idea. We're about to find out. Maybe might be another five years. I don't

Speaker 2 (00:54:35):

20 years

Speaker 4 (00:54:35):

Later. Yeah, I

Speaker 2 (00:54:38):

Think I want to know.

Speaker 4 (00:54:39):

Yeah, and it'll be interesting too, because there's also their fan base, and same with Dream Theater and a lot of bands from that era. Buying the album was kind of a ritual, so I feel like it could go either way. Tool could have these crazy sales that you're like, what the hell? They sold more physical copies than anyone this year sort of thing. You know what I mean? Because all their fans are from that era where buying physical copies was a ritual, and I think tool putting out an album could spark some nostalgia and some need to feel that feeling again in a lot of people. So I could see that happening. I could also see them having just abysmal sales because

Speaker 2 (00:55:26):

Abysmal for them.

Speaker 4 (00:55:27):

For them, for them, not for normal people. It's not going to sell like a thousand records first week.

Speaker 2 (00:55:33):

No, it's not going to be like, no, but what if it's 20,000? I could see that, which would be amazing for most bands, but for tool,

Speaker 4 (00:55:42):

I could see that. That's the thing. I have no idea. I have no idea.

Speaker 2 (00:55:46):

I wouldn't be surprised if they opened at 20 or something, even 50. I wouldn't be surprised something that's low for a band of that size. I wouldn't be surprised. But I also wouldn't be surprised if what you said happened, like old school style sales.

Speaker 4 (00:56:06):

Yeah. There was just somewhere. Yeah, and it would never be the same as it was, but for the current market,

Speaker 2 (00:56:12):

500, 500001st

Speaker 4 (00:56:13):

Week, yeah, no, that's not going to happen. But for the market, I could see them just having a blip in the chart that goes way up of physical album sales and you're like, what the hell is that? Oh, tool released their first album in 12 years and all these nineties kids went and bought CDs. Also, a lot of it'll have to do with the marketing. I could also see tool pulling the, oh, hey, our album's out.

Speaker 2 (00:56:40):

Yeah, zero marketing,

Speaker 4 (00:56:41):

No physical came out copies, or it came out today or something. And then that would obviously affect the numbers, and I have no idea

Speaker 2 (00:56:49):

The no marketing thing. I've encountered quite a few old timers who have tried doing that and it's failed so hard, and they think they're being smart. I've encountered a few actually in the past couple years who are in big bands from the nineties who are like, we're going to do something real cool. We're not going to market this until the day it comes out, and then it's just going to be like Bam. And everyone's going to be like, whoa, but nobody, there's

Speaker 4 (00:57:17):

No bam.

Speaker 2 (00:57:18):

Yeah, there's no bam, there's no wo,

Speaker 4 (00:57:19):

There's no Bam. It's hard to bam. With algorithms like social media algorithms, the way they are, even if you sponsor stuff, you can't just bam. It's not like when there was a tv, so

Speaker 2 (00:57:31):

No bam, no woe.

Speaker 4 (00:57:33):

When the Mars Volta Delau and the Comment auditorium came out, they kind of did something like that. There wasn't a ton of marketing, and then they just went crazy on TV marketing two or three days before the record was released and when the main form of marketing was TV marketing that worked. Everyone was watching the same two, three channels.

Speaker 2 (00:57:55):

When was this?

Speaker 4 (00:57:56):

2000

Speaker 2 (00:57:56):

2 0 3

Speaker 4 (00:57:58):

Something, but it wasn't a lot of times there was a poster up in the record store a month before with the date and stuff, and I didn't see a lot of that. It was just kind of out of nowhere. I always think of that record is really coming out of nowhere,

Speaker 2 (00:58:14):

But you could do that back then.

Speaker 4 (00:58:15):

You could do that because you weren't fighting algorithms or paying for sponsors that aren't really always going where you think it's going and that stuff does work, but if you don't have a marketing team and a real marketing plan, you don't even have a shot. It not even going to work. Even if you do a really smart marketing do. But yeah, even if you do, and honestly if you had a really smart marketing team, they'd probably be like, yeah, don't do that. Certain artists, sure, it's cool, but

Speaker 2 (00:58:46):

One of the smartest marketing things I've seen in a long time, I actually showed this to Finn.

Speaker 6 (00:58:51):

He

Speaker 2 (00:58:51):

Made a video about it was Behemoth did this. Behemoth are amazing at their marketing. They're just so damn good at it. I don't know how familiar you are or not with them.

Speaker 4 (00:59:03):

Not super familiar.

Speaker 2 (00:59:04):

They're one of those bands that if you're not familiar with that style, then it just seems like another one of those bands. But they're one of those bands that makes a lot of money and they fucking kill it.

Speaker 3 (00:59:18):

They

Speaker 2 (00:59:19):

Crush it. They do real well. They do better than the other bands in that style by a long shot. It's because the main dude is so smart, unbelievably smart. He should be a politician. I

Speaker 6 (00:59:32):

Think

Speaker 2 (00:59:33):

One of the most charismatic, intelligent, just on it people I've ever met in my life, which is how they get tours with bands that are not in their style, not Satanic, not any of that, but what they did was it was kind of fucked up, but it was so smart. They put up this website where you're supposed to read this Satanic prayer. If you want to hear the song, it shows you the Satanic prayer. That's part of the lyrics to the song, but you have to say it and it records you saying it, and not until you say what it tells you to say. Does it show you the song? So you learn the lyrics to the song before you even hear the song, which then obviously that makes it easy to put it on shirts, to make tattoos out of it, to get it chanted at shows. It is so smart. It was like the chorus of the song, but yeah, they put it in this chant

Speaker 4 (01:00:34):

And it gives you something unique to talk about.

Speaker 2 (01:00:36):

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 4 (01:00:37):

Everyone's like, you know what these guys did? It's super weird.

Speaker 2 (01:00:41):

They

Speaker 4 (01:00:41):

Made everyone say a Satanic prayer,

Speaker 2 (01:00:44):

But it's so smart. It's great. Got total compliance out of their fans. So there's that psychological element of you're doing what we tell you to do, so we're in control here. You're learning our lyrics, so boom, we can market this shit to you, and here's your reward. You get to hear our song, which is crazy because sometimes debuting a new song, no one really cares. So they did all this. They made people jump through hoops in order to just hear the song. Anyhow, I thought it was super brilliant. Whenever I see bands doing stuff like that, that are bands that people care about, I'm just like, hell yeah. They get

Speaker 5 (01:01:25):

It. Yeah, they get super cool. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:01:28):

Sometimes you see local bands do it and it doesn't work. Nobody cares. It's like W. But when it's a band that somebody cares about,

Speaker 4 (01:01:37):

Yeah, you have to know your audience. I mean, that's part of marketing. There's ways that you can market for a virtually unknown band to become a known band. I mean, it happens. It happens every year. I mean, there's those bands that do that, and certain marketing teams or labels know how to make that happen. But you have to know your audience. And that's basically what you're saying is you don't know your audience and you've got five people coming through your page and you try to do a surprise campaign or something. It's like everyone's like, oh, I thought you broke up.

Speaker 2 (01:02:10):

Yeah, exactly. But there's this band that's known for being this Satanic band and has this vibe about them, and people feel like they're legit and really, really dark and all those things, all that imagery is who they are. So that marketing campaign, it was creepy and it fit perfectly. It was totally congruent with their image. It was just marketing, but it was so congruent with their image that it didn't feel like

Speaker 3 (01:02:40):

Marketing.

Speaker 2 (01:02:41):

Actually, that's why I showed it to Finn, because we do marketing, and so we're like, wow, that's good. It's good when it doesn't feel like marketing, basically.

Speaker 5 (01:02:51):

Yeah. That's super cool.

Speaker 2 (01:02:53):

So tool, I think if they wanted to just come out with a bam, they'd have to do something like that appropriate for them, which they have that kind of mystery to them too, so they could easily do it if they had the right

Speaker 4 (01:03:06):

Brain. And they've always had a visual component. Every one of their records, everything, music, videos, everything they've ever released, even their live show has heavily revolved around some kind of visual component. So I have a hard time believing that they would just, now that I think about it, I can't imagine them just dropping something. There's going to be some kind of hint or something leading up to it that gets people interested. Always had some, because you remember Inma had the 3D, the CD cover was the 3D thing, that you move it and it changes what it's doing.

Speaker 2 (01:03:43):

Yeah. That was cool. Which

Speaker 4 (01:03:44):

Was the first time anyone did anything like that. And laterals just had all the interesting anatomical drawings and stuff. I don't even know what you would call that type of artwork, but just super interesting stuff. So they've always had a visual component, so I have a hard time believing they would just be like, here's the music. They're a very thought out artistic band.

Speaker 2 (01:04:08):

What about who knows? What about the new issues? How's

Speaker 4 (01:04:12):

That? It's good. It's different. I don't even know how to explain it.

Speaker 2 (01:04:16):

I figured it would be a little different.

Speaker 4 (01:04:17):

Yeah, it's way different, but it's still very true to the band.

Speaker 2 (01:04:21):

Is it still Justin Timberlake meets metal?

Speaker 4 (01:04:24):

Yes. It's Groo than any of their other records.

Speaker 2 (01:04:27):

Awesome,

Speaker 4 (01:04:28):

Man. I thought of, I wish I could remember. I thought of a good way to describe it at one point, because I think a lot of people are expecting it to be super pop or Super Prague, but it's not. I'm just excited for people to hear it freaking awesome. It's amazing songs, and it's a style of music that I don't think really exists yet.

Speaker 2 (01:04:50):

It's really cool saying that even after they already invented something.

Speaker 4 (01:04:55):

Yeah, they've definitely, I mean, it's still issues. If you heard it and didn't know who it was, you're not going to be like, who's this? It's definitely issues, but it's really cool. It's very groove oriented. It's rad.

Speaker 2 (01:05:13):

I remember a few years before they came out, I was talking to somebody and I remember telling them that I really felt like someone has to come along and do legitimate pop with breakdowns and stuff. It's such an obvious pairing because around that time before them dubstep was big and dubstep the best of dubstep, not the stuff that gets made fun of, but the best of it was basically heavy music in electronic form. And it was like, well, if that can happen, you can almost hear how Pop could blend with heavy music too. Someone is going to come around eventually. And then the issues came around. I was like, that's the band. They did it

Speaker 4 (01:05:55):

Well. And people were doing the whole, it was like the equivalent of the nineties, clean guitar, distorted guitar, clean guitar, distorted guitar. People were doing, the bridge is a pop part, or the verse is a pop part, and then it's a rock chorus, or it's a breakdown course, but issues actually just made whole songs that were a pop song and a heavy song playing at the same

Speaker 1 (01:06:20):

Time. Yeah,

Speaker 4 (01:06:21):

Exactly. And that's how they changed it. And that was the next step for that type of music.

Speaker 2 (01:06:28):

Yeah, it was totally melded together. It

Speaker 4 (01:06:30):

Wasn't instead of just on and off.

Speaker 2 (01:06:32):

And I always felt, for the most part that the on and off bands, I mean, there's some great ones, but when they'd go pop, they wouldn't really go pop. They'd go like Half Pop or something. I felt like Issues was fucking pop.

Speaker 4 (01:06:46):

Hell. Well, and Tyler, I mean, he just has a pop style, so it lends them to doing that and not just being like a rock guy singing over a pop song

Speaker 2 (01:07:00):

Sort of thing. Yeah. It's legit and it's very sophisticated.

Speaker 4 (01:07:03):

Yeah, it's good. Tyler's really, really good. I mean, everybody in that band is so ridiculously talented. They're a very talented band, but the new record's. Very cool.

Speaker 2 (01:07:14):

Are those your favorite types of bands to work with, those genre Bender prolific? I know issues took a break for a while, but I know that Tyler has been making music the whole time. Which Tyler? Oh, which Tyler,

Speaker 4 (01:07:27):

Ty or Tyler, the singer.

Speaker 2 (01:07:29):

Sorry. Or the dj? The dj,

Speaker 4 (01:07:34):

Yeah. He has his own stuff. He's involved in the new record. I think he's already announced that on Twitter. I wasn't involved in the production, so I don't know how many songs, but he is involved for sure.

Speaker 2 (01:07:47):

Yeah. And he's prolific as fuck.

Speaker 4 (01:07:49):

Yeah, they all are. Well, his twin brother is the bass player.

Speaker 2 (01:07:53):

I did not know

Speaker 4 (01:07:53):

That. Yeah. And he is also pro

Speaker 2 (01:07:56):

Prolific man, some families,

Speaker 4 (01:07:58):

Right? Yeah. And their sister's an awesome singer. There's another she, they've done some music altogether. That's really good.

Speaker 2 (01:08:04):

What is it with some families like the Chicos too?

Speaker 4 (01:08:07):

What? Yeah. I don't know. It's just In Your Blood. I think about that a lot. I think about, obviously it's environment, but there just has to be something like there's another who loves music.

Speaker 2 (01:08:19):

There's another, there's another, Kevin's brother is the guitar player for Shania Twain. Oh, wicked. Yeah. That's awesome. He's like a successful session guitar player in country

Speaker 5 (01:08:32):

Pop. That's rad.

Speaker 2 (01:08:34):

Yeah, and I believe that Kane's sister manages the business.

Speaker 5 (01:08:41):

Nice.

Speaker 2 (01:08:41):

So they're all in on it.

Speaker 5 (01:08:43):

Yeah. I love that.

Speaker 2 (01:08:44):

Yeah. Quite the power family.

Speaker 5 (01:08:47):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:08:47):

Sometimes that happens.

Speaker 5 (01:08:48):

Yeah, it's super cool.

Speaker 2 (01:08:50):

Kind of crazy. I always wondered how it happens, like nature or nurture or just the perfect combination of both.

Speaker 5 (01:08:57):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (01:08:58):

But I mean,

Speaker 4 (01:08:59):

Yeah, it's tough, especially as someone who has small children. I do think about it all the time and what decisions you make affect how they're going to be, because obviously all your decisions affect them in some way or another. Might not be a major effect, but it will affect them. And it's a weird thing to think about when you're in a business that consumes so much of your time. It's interesting that you still have kids that grow up to do, same with musicians and touring musicians and stuff. It's interesting that they still look to their parents and say, I want to be a part of that. I want to do that.

Speaker 2 (01:09:39):

That's what my dad

Speaker 4 (01:09:40):

Did, because it's not like you're necessarily around all the time showing them this stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:09:47):

No, my dad was gone all the time. Always gone three weeks a month, most months. Yeah, no, you're right. It's interesting. How old are your kids?

Speaker 4 (01:10:01):

One and a half and three and a half.

Speaker 2 (01:10:02):

Oh, so still a little too young to really,

Speaker 4 (01:10:05):

Yeah, not going to, my son has kind of grown, well, my daughter's been singing since she was like 10, nine months. It's like the weirdest thing. Before she could talk or anything, she would sing the melodies on the cartoons, but on her own, she was singing the Paw Patrol theme at eight or nine months. And it was weird. It was super weird because our son didn't talk until he was like two, and she sings anything she hears, she'll just start singing it. She has the music in her.

Speaker 2 (01:10:38):

And

Speaker 4 (01:10:38):

A trip to me is like,

Speaker 2 (01:10:40):

Wow,

Speaker 4 (01:10:40):

Just you don't know what. And then my son has recently become very interested in guitars. He'll come out here whenever he can. If I don't lock the door, he'll just bust in. And a month ago when it kind of started two months ago, I was out here and he came in and I was just working alone. And I turned around and he's reaching for a 1972 Les Paul, and I'm just the easiest guitar to break on the fricking planet, and I would just literally dove across the room. I was like, stop. No. Any other guitar bolt, any bolt-on guitar you can mess around with, you're not going to break it. But he loves just setting the guitar in the ground. He'll grab a guitar pick, which also he calls a toothpick, which confused me for a while. And he's like, daddy, can I have a toothpick? And I'm like, sharp stick. No, you can't have a toothpick. And he's like, why you need a toothpick? I'm like, I don't know what you're talking about. And then he'd find a guitar pick and be like A toothpick.

Speaker 2 (01:11:39):

Oh, there you go.

Speaker 4 (01:11:40):

Start playing. I'm like, oh, you want a guitar pick,

Speaker 2 (01:11:42):

Man.

Speaker 4 (01:11:43):

But yeah, he loves playing the guitar on the ground. And so you don't know how much that is about music or just that it's a weird thing, or I don't know, but

Speaker 2 (01:11:54):

Sounds like, but my whole

Speaker 4 (01:11:55):

Family has been musicians for years, so for generations. So it's one of those things. My dad has a guitar that was my great grandpa's guitar. We just always played music. And so I don't know. What's in your blood? What's like,

Speaker 2 (01:12:12):

I'd be curious to know if your daughter's got Perfect Pitch. Doesn't, it's probably too early to tell, but I'd be curious to know if she's already picking songs

Speaker 4 (01:12:21):

Out. Yeah, and they're obvious. That's what's weird a trip is it's not like she's just humming and she wasn't singing the lyrics. She was singing Paw Patrol and it sounded like Papa da, but it was very clearly the melody and longer parts of it than you would expect. She would literally sing a whole section of a song and it just sitting there. You can't see my face right now, but just being like, this is crazy that you're singing the hook and then going into the verse and you're barely crawling. That's kind of amazing. Yeah. So it'll be interesting to see. I don't know. All kids are different, and I know other kids that, yeah, it's not a podcast about kids

Speaker 2 (01:13:12):

We talking about. No, it's not. I've stuff, but it'll be interesting. It's not a podcast about kids, but I have talked to lots of parents on the podcast, actually talked to Kevin about Kane and about this stuff. And definitely this topic comes up when it's relevant just because I'm fascinated by it, just for my own personal reasons, because I went into music probably because of my dad. So it's just interesting to me. I've always wondered what's nature? What's nurture? Did Cain just pop out talented, or is it because he was in the bunker with Mutt Lang and his dad?

Speaker 3 (01:13:54):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:13:55):

Or both?

Speaker 3 (01:13:56):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (01:13:56):

Probably both.

Speaker 3 (01:13:57):

Yeah,

Speaker 4 (01:13:57):

Probably both.

Speaker 2 (01:13:59):

More than likely both. But I've always just been curious about how much is genetic, is talent genetic at all, and how much is what you put into it? I mean, I've known lots of talented people who didn't put in any work, and

Speaker 3 (01:14:20):

That

Speaker 2 (01:14:20):

Kind of sucked in the end. In the end. They could only get so far. But that innate part of it, I think the talent is the innate part.

Speaker 3 (01:14:31):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:14:33):

I've always wondered if that comes from something genetic. And then also you meet people who are the first in their bloodline to be a musical prodigy. So where does that come from? People

Speaker 4 (01:14:46):

Didn't like, yeah, my dad was a doctor and I'm a fricking shredder guitar player.

Speaker 2 (01:14:51):

Yeah,

Speaker 4 (01:14:51):

Exactly. It's interesting,

Speaker 2 (01:14:54):

Man. Speaking of Les Paul's being breakable. God. So when I was 13, my first electric guitar was a squire, but I had my heart set on a Les Paul studio. It was what I figured I could afford at 13 after working an entire summer. And I got it after working an entire summer, and it was such a big deal. And the first day I had it, I took it to a friend's house and we fucked around with it, played it, and then I leaned it up against the wall.

Speaker 3 (01:15:28):

Oh no. And

Speaker 2 (01:15:28):

It slipped,

Speaker 3 (01:15:29):

And

Speaker 2 (01:15:30):

The neck just popped right off day one. Day one.

Speaker 4 (01:15:34):

That's awful, man. Dude. So I've seen some Les Pauls go down, dude,

Speaker 2 (01:15:38):

It just came clean off, just

Speaker 4 (01:15:40):

Like it Barely, barely tapped the, they're basically built, if you know anything about physics, they're built to break. When they fall, the way the headstock is shaped and the weight of the body combined with a super thin neck, it's literally just built to,

Speaker 2 (01:16:00):

Yeah, it did fall hard.

Speaker 4 (01:16:02):

Yeah. Yeah. But the body's so heavy that the neck is a lever that just slams down. And then the headstock bears so little weight because it's angled so hard. Every time I look at one, I'm just like, it's beautiful. But it was just built to break.

Speaker 2 (01:16:19):

It was tragic.

Speaker 4 (01:16:20):

No give no give from the neck. Being a bolt-on. Fenders are the other way around. It's like, I don't think I've ever seen a fender where the head stock broke. I've seen the necks break with someone

Speaker 2 (01:16:32):

Physically broke one. This neck came clean off the body.

Speaker 4 (01:16:35):

Oh, the neck was

Speaker 2 (01:16:36):

Paul? Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:16:36):

Oh my. It wasn't the head. It wasn't the No, it was the head stock. No, it was the

Speaker 2 (01:16:40):

Fucking neck.

Speaker 4 (01:16:40):

Well, that's a different

Speaker 2 (01:16:42):

Right off the body.

Speaker 4 (01:16:44):

I feel like you should have gotten your money back on that. It sounds like a guitar that was built wrong.

Speaker 2 (01:16:52):

And to your point, I actually years later tried to break the Squire after I had a few more guitars and was like never going to play this guitar again. And the next, I like

Speaker 5 (01:17:02):

Nirvana.

Speaker 2 (01:17:04):

I want to know what it's like to break a guitar. I couldn't break it. I tried. I tried. I slammed into the concrete. I tried. We jumped up and down on the neck. It wouldn't break.

Speaker 4 (01:17:16):

And even if they do, the only thing that ever happens is the bolts just strip out of the neck.

Speaker 2 (01:17:20):

Maybe

Speaker 4 (01:17:21):

That happened. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (01:17:23):

That's

Speaker 4 (01:17:23):

Hard to do too. That's hard to do too. But that's not like the wood is going to break anywhere.

Speaker 2 (01:17:29):

It didn't.

Speaker 4 (01:17:29):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (01:17:30):

I couldn't believe it. It took a fucking beating.

Speaker 4 (01:17:34):

I had an old K guitar that I broke one time on stage. It's fun. It was a lot of fun, but I don't think I'd ever do it again. But yeah, it was a good time. And by on stage, I mean a garage with 30 kids in it, it's still stage, not actually on stage. Do

Speaker 2 (01:17:50):

Bands still do that?

Speaker 4 (01:17:52):

I think. I feel like a lot of bands look at that as wasteful. A lot of it is. I know, it's funny. I remember being a kid and thinking it was so rock and badass and emotional, and now people are, get control of your feelings. Don't break something just you're angry, is it? But back then it was like, I don't know. It was just different. So it's interesting to see how younger people's view of music and musicians and just life in general is very

Speaker 2 (01:18:26):

Different. I remember seeing Bungle destroy all their shit once. It was amazing diving into the drums and just destroying them, destroying every instrument on stage.

Speaker 3 (01:18:38):

And I

Speaker 2 (01:18:39):

Was just like, this is amazing. This is the coolest thing I've ever seen. I saw Nirvana do it too. And I was like, wow, I want to do that. Yeah, I think you're right. I don't think that's very cool anymore.

Speaker 4 (01:18:50):

It's not cool at all.

Speaker 2 (01:18:52):

It is totally a nineties kid thing.

Speaker 4 (01:18:53):

Yeah, big time. I know. And it's funny to, if I look at it through someone else's lens, it's goofy. There's still a place in my heart for it for sure. It as fuck. It's hilarious. It's real dumb.

Speaker 2 (01:19:06):

It is immature. It's stupid. It's wasteful, financially irresponsible. And it probably means that you've got some issues you really need to deal with because if they come out in your normal life against another person or against your normal personal property, could cause some real problems. But why was it okay for pants to do

Speaker 4 (01:19:29):

It? Do it on stage? Yeah. I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:19:31):

It's fucking awesome back then.

Speaker 4 (01:19:32):

Yeah, it was great.

Speaker 2 (01:19:34):

I think it's because there was an element to rock and metal and stuff that was unhinged and that was maybe glorified, or maybe not glorified, but it was celebrated that unhinged real element, like real shit by real people to the point where they will fucking burn down everything right then and there, where I'm not sure that now being unhinged is very cool.

Speaker 4 (01:20:04):

No, and there's, I think lot of, I don't know, very many bands that go up on stage with a hundred dollars guitars either. You know what I mean? True. There's definitely a thing about having the nicest stuff, which as an engineer and a producer, I love it. That's very true. It makes my life way easier. But Kurt was up there with $50 uni boxes that were ripoffs of an already cheap guitar that he was breaking and stuff, or at near the end, he was getting free squires from Fender and stuff,

Speaker 2 (01:20:39):

So he wasn't breaking a $3,500 man onus guitar

Speaker 4 (01:20:42):

And a bogner. He wasn't like breaking PRSs. And I mean, if anyone is guilty, it's Jimi Hendrix for breaking those super rare marshals. And were back then. No, no. I'm joking about it now because in retrospect, he's breaking tens and thousands of dollars worth of stuff every time he broke stuff. A 50, a 60 Strat, all that stuff, I'm sure we'll look back on. No, we'll never look back on a univa and be like, for so much,

Speaker 2 (01:21:16):

Don't think so. But

Speaker 4 (01:21:17):

I would love someone to jokingly tally how the current worth of everything that Jimi Hendrix destroyed,

Speaker 2 (01:21:26):

You could probably plan a retirement based on it,

Speaker 4 (01:21:29):

Man by a castle. That stuff's worth a lot of money now.

Speaker 2 (01:21:35):

So I don't miss that element, by the way. I feel like I don't look at the past and wish it was still here.

Speaker 4 (01:21:42):

No, no, not at all.

Speaker 2 (01:21:43):

So when I think to Rock in the nineties and how unhinged it was, and there were lots of things that were really terrible, like heroin being made cool and stuff, things like that. Right now, I think Xanax and pills are kind of made cool, but not really. There's a lot out there in the media and online about how to

Speaker 4 (01:22:09):

Counter it.

Speaker 2 (01:22:10):

To counter

Speaker 4 (01:22:10):

It. Yeah. There huge. There wasn't a huge

Speaker 2 (01:22:12):

Movement.

Speaker 4 (01:22:12):

Yeah. There wasn't so much other than Nancy Reagan, but

Speaker 2 (01:22:17):

Who gave

Speaker 4 (01:22:17):

A fuck. But exactly. There was nothing that reached out to the kids that was a counterpoint. That wasn't the man like Dare or

Speaker 2 (01:22:26):

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 4 (01:22:27):

Tipper

Speaker 2 (01:22:28):

Gore or whatever.

Speaker 4 (01:22:29):

Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's all,

Speaker 2 (01:22:31):

You can have rappers rapping about Xanax, but you also have a lot of people talking about, well, yeah, you're going to die too if you mix that with alcohol. And they make a big deal out of any time a celebrity die instrument.

Speaker 4 (01:22:44):

Yeah, exactly. And sadly, the rappers are dying from it. Yeah. That's what happens.

Speaker 2 (01:22:48):

It's awful. But I feel like in the nineties when they were making a big deal out of heroin with Allison Chains, just talking about it openly, I don't know if you ever saw this ministry tour video that they made this documentary on tour where they were just openly shooting up on it. I couldn't believe it. I saw it a year ago. And they're just sitting there backstage shooting up on video, like nothing. No big deal. That would not fly now. So I think in some ways, when people talk about how rocks got unsafe, I do agree. I think back to that, and it's like, yeah, that was way more unhinged, but I don't miss it. I don't necessarily think that that was cool.

Speaker 4 (01:23:36):

No one needs to redo that.

Speaker 2 (01:23:37):

Yeah, no.

Speaker 4 (01:23:38):

I mean, it was just a place in time. And I think that goes back to what I was saying earlier about I'm more of a fan of albums than I am of a band necessarily, even though I'm a fan of the band that made the album. But I see myself as thinking more about the albums I love than specifically the bands I love. And it has to do with that of certain things happening at certain times. And same with genres of music. There's genres of music, and people will complain that, oh, this genre died. I miss this genre. But it's like, do you really want people to just run it on forever? And it's like a TV show that just goes on and on and on, and you're like, they should have ended it at season five.

Speaker 6 (01:24:22):

How

Speaker 4 (01:24:22):

Do you stop? So I never really find myself missing stuff like that.

Speaker 2 (01:24:29):

Whenever I hear that about bands that are still going, that were maybe great at one point and then just kind of leveled off and people give them shit. And it's like, well, dude, they're not going to be between the ages of 20 and

Speaker 3 (01:24:43):

33

Speaker 2 (01:24:44):

Forever. What do you expect? They're 45 now. They could probably start a company and fucking kill it and do great, and still have just as much fire. But that kind of rage that goes into making that kind of music it's age appropriate

Speaker 4 (01:25:03):

And more power to the band if they are still enjoying what they're doing and still making songs that they love. That's awesome. I'm definitely not saying the band should just call it at some point

Speaker 2 (01:25:16):

Anyone gets to tell a band to call

Speaker 4 (01:25:19):

It. Yeah. No, I think it's freaking great that the bands do that, and some maintain success. Some have weird success after disappearing for a long time. There's

Speaker 2 (01:25:29):

A band called Cynic that did that. I don't know if you're familiar with them. They were one of the first Prague death metal bands. They were around in the early nineties, and at the time, they would tour with cannibal corps and stuff, but they didn't sound at all like that. They sounded like one of those bands you hear now with odors and jazz arrangements and shit. And they'd get booed off stage and get shit thrown at them. And they lived in Florida, and they moved to LA and just quit and just went into the legit industry and worked in post houses. And when became a session player, and they just had such a bad experience. And in 2009, they reunited and were way bigger than they ever were. In the nineties, I guess the public had caught up. Prague metal was suddenly cool. So yeah, almost 20 years later, they found a place in the public's heart, which is kind of cool. But I don't think anyone really has the right to tell a band to stop. But at the same time, I get it, some bands are past the expiration date of their best material. It's not going to come back probably, but that's okay, because

(01:26:48):

Be happy you got what you got out of them. An artist. Every artist has, there's a bell curve to, or an arc, I guess, to their output. And there's always going to be that peak where they're at their best. Everything's happening. It's different for everybody. Some movie directors, it could be in their fifties or symphony conductors, it's usually in their sixties and seventies, but rock musicians, it's like 25 to 38, I think, is that peak. And then after that, you're lucky if you get more great shit. But what do you expect?

Speaker 5 (01:27:26):

Yep. I agree 100%.

Speaker 2 (01:27:28):

Awesome.

Speaker 5 (01:27:29):

I'm

Speaker 2 (01:27:29):

Glad. Thank

Speaker 4 (01:27:30):

You. No, no. Just I forget about stuff all the time. And there's always, I can talk about it forever. There's always people that have really interesting and bizarre career arcs. I think about Tom Petty has one of the most interesting and bizarrely long, so he's one of the only people that comes to mind that had a greatest hits album with 15 tracks or something, and then had three albums that had billboard chart topping singles after his greatest hits album. That's weird.

Speaker 6 (01:28:05):

Weird.

Speaker 4 (01:28:06):

That's super weird. It's not like they put out a Greatest Hits album because the first album had a bunch of hits. It's like a Third Eye Blind put out a greatest Hits album. Six of those songs would just be off the first album. You know what I mean? And then sure, there's other stuff. But he had 10 albums, had a bunch of hits on all those albums, put out a greatest hits, and then had a bunch more hits. It's super weird and had hits, and it was fifties

Speaker 2 (01:28:28):

Total album

Speaker 4 (01:28:28):

That are really good too. Yeah. Such a bizarre outlier of a career. Even Michael Jackson didn't have a career like that. He probably had a greatest hits and then put out other stuff, but he was popular since he was six or something or eight.

Speaker 2 (01:28:43):

Paul McCarney did a little bit.

Speaker 4 (01:28:45):

Yeah. He would've in his different, yeah. Obviously Beatles' Greatest Hits, and then he has hits with Wings and all kinds of

Speaker 2 (01:28:53):

Die

Speaker 4 (01:28:53):

And all

Speaker 2 (01:28:54):

Kinds of

Speaker 4 (01:28:54):

Oh, yeah. Solo album stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:28:57):

But geniuses are outliers.

Speaker 4 (01:28:59):

Yeah. Yeah, totally. I guess what makes the Tom Petty thing interesting to me is it's just him and his band. You know what I mean? There was never a change that signified the next chapter or new stuff. It was just like they just kept doing their thing and people just kept liking it.

Speaker 2 (01:29:18):

I don't know much about him, but what I wonder is did he fit that rockstar mold of some kid that's on fire and has this fire they want to express, or was he more like a professional musician?

Speaker 4 (01:29:31):

No, he was a fire you want to express, there's a famous story about him negotiating his first real record deal with capital. He was on a bad record deal, but he went in as a 19-year-old kid, and when they started trying to talk him down and he wanted different terms, he brought out a pocket knife and started carving the table in front of the label, this country kid from fucking Florida somewhere that didn't give a fuck and was just like, I want what I want and I'm going to sit here

Speaker 2 (01:30:00):

Good for

Speaker 4 (01:30:00):

Him and whittle a hole in your table with my pocket knife until you give me what I want.

Speaker 2 (01:30:05):

I heard that Sean Connery was that way. I was actually watching something about him last night as I was falling asleep. He was the first actor to get payment to come to him and not to his manager or agent.

Speaker 3 (01:30:22):

Oh,

Speaker 2 (01:30:22):

Interesting. So it used to be that they would go to the agent and then the agent would pay the talent. So it would be funny business with that. Obviously that still happens in the music industry with booking agents where the booking agent collects the deposits and gets paid a lot of the time and then will pay you. Sometimes it just depends. Sometimes you do collect your shit at the venue. It just depends. But there are cases where a lot certain shows, like X number of shows, the money gets forwarded to the agent, and then the agent will then decide when to pay you and some pay right away, and some make you jump through hoops. But anyway, Sean Connery was a brawler war hero, just kind of, he was from a poor neighborhood in Scotland. He was not a refined actor kind of

Speaker 3 (01:31:22):

Dude.

Speaker 2 (01:31:24):

And when they tried to play games with him, he just wouldn't take it. And he got brutal with them, and he changed that to where then he started getting paid. Then he would pay his team, which is kind of awesome. So some people,

Speaker 5 (01:31:40):

That's the way it should have been.

Speaker 2 (01:31:41):

I agree. Well, it takes people like that to people who give no fucks.

Speaker 5 (01:31:46):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:31:46):

So Tom Petty is one of those weirdos that just never died

Speaker 4 (01:31:50):

For him. Yeah. Yep. I think he just always loved it and yeah, I don't know. Went through drug phases. He does have one really bad album that was the peak of his cocaine use Bad, in my opinion. I think it still had one single on it, but

Speaker 2 (01:32:08):

So in his case, the drugs made him worse.

Speaker 4 (01:32:10):

Yeah. Well, probably made it better. And then at the peak of it, I'm sure there was a loss of control at some point.

Speaker 2 (01:32:19):

So what's interesting to me about that is just that the arcs,

Speaker 4 (01:32:23):

I mean, that happens to a lot of bands. They just don't come back from it.

Speaker 2 (01:32:26):

Yeah. They take the drugs too far and then

Speaker 4 (01:32:29):

That's it.

Speaker 2 (01:32:30):

That's it. They burned it out. The beginning of the drug use, I mean, I remember when I experimented, it was mind expanding at first.

Speaker 3 (01:32:41):

Then

Speaker 2 (01:32:41):

You could see where in Berkeley days, then you could see the kids that would just keep going with it would just destroy themselves. So I learned. But I feel like some people just don't learn. However, the thing that I think is interesting about the Tom Petty thing is that you can't expect the same arc out of every artist. Some

Speaker 3 (01:33:04):

People bizarre

Speaker 2 (01:33:05):

Their greatness is going to be concentrated in a three year period, and that's it. And some, it's going to be Tom Petty the whole time.

Speaker 4 (01:33:14):

Yep. Just cranking out hits for three decades or something.

Speaker 2 (01:33:18):

It's pretty phenomen

Speaker 4 (01:33:19):

Almost. Yeah. It's wild. Well, cool. I'm trying to think. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (01:33:24):

I think it's a good place to stop it.

Speaker 4 (01:33:25):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (01:33:26):

For sure. Well, thank you for doing the podcast again.

Speaker 4 (01:33:29):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:33:29):

Thanks for having me on. Been a pleasure.

Speaker 4 (01:33:31):

My pleasure.

Speaker 1 (01:33:32):

The Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast is brought to you by Sure. Legendary microphones, cutting edge wireless systems, premium earphones and headphones. Sure. The most trusted audio brand worldwide. For more information, go to sure.com to ask us questions, make suggestions and interact. Visit URM Academy and press the podcast link

Speaker 6 (01:33:57):

Today.