JOEY STURGIS, JOEL WANASEK, EYAL LEVI: The 6 Pillars of Success, Finding Mentors, and Overcoming Failure

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast, brought to you by Creative Live, the world's best online classroom for creative professionals with glasses on songwriting, engineering, mixing and mastering. Go to creative live.com/audio to start learning now. The Unstoppable Recording Machine podcast is also brought to you by Pro Tone Pedals, the secrets own weapon for guitar experts everywhere. Go to proz zone pedals.com to take your tone to the next level. And now your host, Joey Sturgis, Joel Wanasek and Eyal Levi.

Speaker 3 (00:00:30):

Alright, what's up guys? Welcome to the Joey Sturgis Forum podcast. First and foremost, I want to thank you for tuning into the podcast. Without you, we'd just be some idiots talking on a stupid show that no one listens to. I also want to thank everyone at the forum for all the support with me are two friends of mine who I couldn't do this without. Joel Wanasek and Eyal Levi. And before they introduce themselves, lemme tell you guys a little bit about what we're doing. We're going to be putting out a podcast once a week and talking about production, mixing and business topics, including some of which you will vote for. We'll also be answering some questions every week and we'll pick the best of those with a poll. If you guys are into all of this, let us know by going to www.joeysturges.com/podcast. So anyway, I want to spend a few minutes letting you guys get to know Joel and Al, in case you haven't already heard about them. They're both professionals in the industry like me, and they've had more than a decade of experience working with music professionally. I'll start with you, Joel. Tell us a little more about yourself.

(00:01:31):

Well, thanks for having me, Joey and I am mostly a rock guy and I do some pop music and stuff like that and I occasionally do metal, but I'm more on the radio side, so a lot of my experience is more in what I would call radio metal. I really don't do any of the brutal albums or a lot of the hardcore stuff, but I've worked for some decent labels and things like that. I just did vinyl theater on fuel by Ramen Atlantic. I just did Righteous Vendetta for Street Smart, the Bloodline for Another Century, and the list goes on. I got some decent credits and some good stuff that I've worked on. And yeah, I mean that's pretty much it for me. I make records and mostly mix. So

Speaker 2 (00:02:10):

In other words, you suck at everything and you still live with your mom.

Speaker 3 (00:02:14):

Yeah, I just turned knobs. That's it. And have friends.

Speaker 2 (00:02:19):

What about you, Eyal?

Speaker 4 (00:02:21):

Well, I'd say that the have no friends part. That's me. Okay, so now that we know each other, let's start the podcast. No, I've been in the game a little while, maybe since the early two thousands. I've worn lots of different hats at this. I was in a band called Daath for a while, signed a roadrunner, played over a thousand shows on almost every continent except for Antarctica. That would've been cool, but sadly we didn't get an offer. Put out tons of records on my own as a band member and then also have been producing for I'd say 15 or so years. And in the past four years, I was lucky enough to partner up over here at Audio Hammer for a little while and work with them on tons of records. So I've done everything from Assist to Produce to mix, to assistant mix, to you name it, every single possible studio hat you can wear.

(00:03:24):

I've worn on albums all the way from Chelsea Grin to Demon Hunter to Ja for a Cowboy to you name it. Just a lot of different kind of heavy stuff that you hear nowadays. And I guess in the past year or so, I've kind of started doing this educational thing through a website called Creative Live and it started to go really well and it's starting to branch off into bootcamps and these podcasts and all these things aimed at just empowering people that are trying to do this recording and music thing professionally, I guess trying to help the next generation coming up. So long story short, that's me and what I've done.

Speaker 2 (00:04:08):

I heard you say you wore a bunch of different hats, but I was wondering, do you wear different t-shirts too?

Speaker 4 (00:04:14):

Not really. I tend to stick to, I'm one of those guys where if you didn't know that I showered and had laundry devices that you would think I was wearing the same shirt every day, I'll buy 10 of the same thing so that I don't have to think about. It's

Speaker 3 (00:04:33):

Awesome. Don't feel bad. I wear a black shirt and jeans every day to the studio anyways myself. So

Speaker 4 (00:04:37):

Hey, as long as it's clean, that's what matters.

Speaker 3 (00:04:40):

Absolutely,

Speaker 2 (00:04:41):

Dude, it's got to be black, you have to wear all black every day everywhere.

Speaker 3 (00:04:45):

It would destroy your metal cret if one of your metal clients were to walk in and not see you wearing a black t-shirt, God forbid it would be like,

Speaker 2 (00:04:52):

Yeah, exactly. Unacceptable. So what's going on with you guys lately? What's happening right now?

Speaker 4 (00:04:58):

Joel, you want to go first?

Speaker 3 (00:05:00):

Yeah, sure. I'm just mixing a bunch of different bands from all over, some European, some American, and I'm, right now I'm working with Righteous Vendetta, working on writing a new record and hopefully recording it sometime later this year for Street Smart and that's pretty much going to consume the rest of my time. Joey and I, we've got some things we're working on like drum forge and some of the impulse products and things like that that we're working on developing and expanding the lines. So pretty busy.

Speaker 4 (00:05:27):

I still haven't tried Drum Forge. I've heard it's awesome though from lots of different sources. So think about me, I want to try it. Anyway, I just got back from a crazy, crazy trip doing a creative live and a bootcamp back to back, which remind me not to do those back to back in the future. But I guess right now I'm kind of watching cold chamber record drums here at my drum room and there's some albums coming up I really can't talk about because people will shoot me in the head. So I don't know. You know how it is, it's like cool stuff coming up.

Speaker 2 (00:06:05):

Well, you're actually watching the cold chamber drums literally happening through the window, right?

Speaker 4 (00:06:10):

It's like literally two rooms over right now. Mark Lewis is producing that one and they're using my drum room and my control room for the drums, so I'm helping out as needed on it and staying out of the way as needed as well. But yeah, man, that guy is surprisingly good. I was,

Speaker 2 (00:06:31):

Isn't that nice when you get a musician that can actually play his instrument?

Speaker 3 (00:06:35):

Absolutely. Wait, that happens.

Speaker 2 (00:06:40):

Well, here's the thing is that it makes our job a lot easier, but not just that it makes it, I dunno, it makes it feel like we're actually doing something like progresses the art instead of taking someone that can barely sing and trying to fix it and getting it to sound okay, you're taking a good performance and making it great. So whenever those things happen, it's like a rare gem. I really love that

Speaker 4 (00:07:06):

Taking, I think it's a lot harder and more soul crushing to take an F or a D and try to edit it into a B minus. You're never going to get an F or a D or a C minus to an A, it's just not going to happen. But it's so much more rewarding when a b plus or an A minus walks into the studio and together you guys can make an A plus how everyone says that it's that last 5% or that last 10%, or that's where the magic lies. I think that that's the hardest part to get out of people and it's only possible to do that if they're already like I'd say 85% of the way there before you get to work on it. So I dunno, I feel like the description, the job description is to get it to a plus, but if they don't come in ready polishing, turds is the cliche puts it, it's

Speaker 3 (00:08:01):

The absolute truth.

Speaker 2 (00:08:02):

I hate polishing. Turds sucks.

Speaker 3 (00:08:05):

Oh my god. Well, I mean as a producer, as a producer, psychological, when the band comes in and you know that you have to unfortunately make a band, it's really stressful and you don't want to hurt their egos or offend them or make them feel bad at the same time, you've got to bring a little bit of the hammer so they can get better. You have to give 'em a little bit of the Gordon Ramsey approach, but then you have to also sit down and say, Hey, listen, I'm on your side and I actually care and I want you to get better. Here's what you need to do, blah, blah, blah. And hopefully they listen. But when a band comes in and they're absolutely amazing and they just smoke and destroy everything they do, it really inspires you as a producer because you walk in, you're like, oh my God, I'm working with a talented band. I can make a really amazing record. And you don't get that opportunity every day. Now everybody knows that you can just edit things together and unfortunately, I feel like practicing has suffered in the art of just learning your instrument and trying to get good and amazing at what you do from the band's point of view is a lot of that's just declined over the last 10 to 15 years. It's kind of sad, but I mean unfortunately, it's the reality of what we do.

Speaker 4 (00:09:04):

They're unicorns,

Speaker 2 (00:09:06):

Unicorns, they're unicorns. That puts you in a whole different mindset though, when you come in and embrace a project like that and you see that, oh wow, now the weight of the world's on my shoulders, this person's actually really talented at what they're doing and it's being filtered through me and I've got to make it right. And I feel like that is definitely, as you both said, it's definitely more rewarding and kind of like eyeopening because I feel like there's probably producers out there that get to work with those kind of people all the time, and I'm really envious of that.

Speaker 4 (00:09:43):

I don't know them. Do you know those guys, those producers?

Speaker 2 (00:09:45):

I don't. I want to tell

Speaker 4 (00:09:47):

Me who they are. I'm going to go bother them for their secret.

Speaker 3 (00:09:52):

Back in the eighties, we're all too young for that seventies, eighties, sixties, everybody could play.

Speaker 4 (00:09:58):

I don't know if that's true though, because remember back in the seventies and eighties session musicians were a thing. I mean here and there, you get guys who come in and replace the drummer. We've got a few guys on call who I'm sure you guys know them too, but in the seventies and eighties, there was a whole network and I'd say even little mini industry of session musicians. So I think the band members have probably always sucked. It's just the budgets were big enough to bring in really, really awesome dudes back then.

Speaker 3 (00:10:33):

Well, that's actually a good point. I agree. I think they've just gotten a little bit lazier.

Speaker 4 (00:10:38):

Oh yeah. Look at Nashville for instance. That whole and a country being the biggest, I think, or at least it was for a long time, the biggest segment of the music industry sales wise, that whole scene is driven by session musicians. So I think it's just a thing. Great bands or unicorns and yeah, I got to work with one recently where the vocals were just so amazing and I could just sit back and do my job and just a really happy thing. That's my story. I'm sticking to it.

Speaker 3 (00:11:17):

It's one of those things you hope for with every band when they come in the studio. I mean, I'll give you an example. The vinyl theater record I did for Fuel by Broman Atlantic, their a and r guy had given us a list of stuff. We rerecorded a couple of old songs and recorded I think four or five new ones. And I mean literally after the two and a half hours it took me and my assistant to set up the drums. I mean, Nick, their drummer, so ridiculous that he knocked out the entire rest of the record in one to two takes because literally that perfect. I mean, if you look at his transience on a grid, I mean they're within 10 milliseconds of every hit. It's not even human. We call him Nick Bot because he never makes a mistake sometimes I'll stop it just because he's playing too perfect.

(00:11:55):

And the a and r guy walked in and he was like, so how are you guys doing? We're like, well, this is day one at two in the afternoon. We started at eight in the morning. And I'm like, well, we've already got all the drums recorded and edited and mixed and we've made every single chain on every single song, and we've already finished all the guitar recording for the whole record and we're on vocals. And he was like, what? And we're like, well, the band is amazing. They prepared. What do you want? We can focus on important things like writing and producing and making sure all the hooks and et cetera are there. And not so much on the mechanical stuff because the band is just that good. And it's incredible when you get to work with somebody like that.

Speaker 2 (00:12:31):

I remember you talking about that. I was talking to you when that was going down and you're like, man, I got this big guy from Atlanta coming in and I'm kind of nervous about it and stuff. And then he shows up and you're like, 8:00 AM you're already halfway through everything. He's like, whoa. So you really overdid it and blew his mind and you didn't really need to be worried about it, but you were. And I think that's cool though because it really kind of ties into what we're talking about, which is going to be called Food for Success, and that has nothing to do with food, but the analogy is there's ingredients for success. And I think al a little bit about why we're talking about this.

Speaker 4 (00:13:14):

Yeah, basically I kind of subscribe to the fact that success really isn't an accident. I mean, there's your lucky scenarios, I'm sure, and I'm sure that anyone that used to watch Behind the music on VH one, remember that show. Yeah. I'm sure that there's a few scenarios like that over the course of history where said, person met, said person, and within two weeks there were sign to the major label and six months later they were millionaires and changed the world. But that's not really how life works, like winning the lottery and you can't really look at stories like that and think that that's going to apply to you. That's about as irrational as thinking that you're going to be in a plane crash or eat in by a shark. No, I seriously think that's true. It's about that irrational on the whole other side of the luck spectrum.

(00:14:17):

Your luck probably will not ever be that bad, but it will probably not ever be that good either. So in order to get from point A to point B saying that your point B is quite ambitious, you have to make some very precise, and I'd say even planned out moves. And if you look at different people who have been successful over the years in any industry, there's certain things that they all have in common. So you can look at Abraham Lincoln or you can look at Mark Zuckerberg or you can look at Mark McGuire or you can look at asking Alexandria or Guns N Roses or whoever. And there's probably a set of things, the set of things that make them one and the same. I guess if you break it down, I mean obviously there's differences. One was a bearded dude in the 18 hundreds and the other is a band from England that plays breakdowns and looks pretty, but still there's certain factors to success that don't change. They're almost like laws of the universe in my opinion.

Speaker 2 (00:15:29):

And that definitely wasn't an accident on your part, Joel, when you were set up for that. There's a thing where you get into a rhythm, you wake up the same time every day, you're always diligent about showing up to work. And I think you can expand on that a little more, just kind of how you have things set up in a way that allows you to basically be successful.

Speaker 3 (00:15:51):

Well, like you guys, I'm a self-made dude. I never went to school for this or I never even had an internship or walked into a real studio with a console and outboard and all that stuff until a couple of years ago. And I've been somehow eaking out a living for 10 years plus doing this. And I feel like discipline and really just having a goal, and most importantly, just not listening to all people who are unsuccessful. If you really, really want to be successful at something, my motto has always been like, and I use the term loosely, follow the money, but what I mean by follow the money is not necessarily the money, but look at the best people in the world at whatever it is you want to do, and sit down and think about, okay, what is it that they're doing that I'm not doing?

(00:16:32):

And then use that and model that behavior and figure it out. Because if you shoot absolutely for the highest pinnacle and whatever you're trying to do in terms of your profession, it'll force you to raise the level of which you hold yourself in your own performance and you'll grow rapidly and usually outshine a lot of the other people that you're competing with just because they're setting their standards so much lower than you. And I mean, you just have to go at it every single day. And you absolutely have to keep that fire alive and just completely blot out. All of the negative influences and negative people in your life are going to tell you that you can't do it because the answer is actually the opposite. You can, I mean, I'm living proof of that. Joey and Al, you guys are both living proof of that. Anybody can be really successful if they really, really, really want it and work for it and are willing to make the sacrifices necessary to get there. And I think that's something,

Speaker 4 (00:17:21):

There's two things I think before I forget. I just needed to tell you about this. I don't think I've said it before. I remember being 13 and watching some metal documentary and I don't like kiss. Okay, I hate Kiss. Just got to say I I'm not into old metal, but

Speaker 2 (00:17:38):

Me neither.

Speaker 4 (00:17:38):

Yeah, I hate it. But that doesn't change the point of what I'm about to say. I remember Gene Simmons from Kiss laying down in a bed and he was surrounded by naked women. There's like 15 women in the bed, and he was interviewed about his success and what he had to say was, if you ask people who haven't achieved this, they'll tell you it's impossible to achieve. But look at me, obviously it's not impossible. So I'd say don't talk to them about it. Talk to me about it, tell you it is possible. Here I am, and I think I wanted to just say that before I forgot it. It applies directly to what you said is don't talk to the people who are losing talk to the winners. That's your guide, that's your map basically.

Speaker 3 (00:18:24):

And often too, people who are successful, I mean, at least for me, I mean I know you guys are like this too, a lot of us, we enjoy helping people get there because for us it's like when I was coming up, I never had an internship in the studio, for example, and I would've killed for one 10 years ago, and there was nothing out there. There was no information unless you moved to LA and clean toilets for $3 an hour. And it's just like a lot of times I find if you want to find mentors, they're more than willing to teach you and they love doing it. And because it's for them, it's a way to give back for the success that they've had and they really, really enjoy just taking people and just helping them out and saying, Hey kid, do this, do that, do this. Here's where I screwed up. And it's really something that, I mean, anybody I think who wants to be successful should do is to try to find people that can help them and they're out there and they're willing to help you. You just got to have the initiative and the ambition to find them.

Speaker 4 (00:19:15):

I think that as long as they don't feel like their time's being wasted, there's a formula to getting a mentor. Also, what's that Al Pacino movie? The one where his famous line, don't waste my motherfucking time.

Speaker 3 (00:19:31):

You're wasting my motherfucking time. Don't waste my motherfucking time.

Speaker 4 (00:19:37):

Yeah. Point is that mentors are out there and they're usually more than willing to help people as long as you approach them in a respectful way that I guess is sympathetic to how many demands there are on their time. I remember when I was 19 or something, it was a big Mr. Bungle fan, and they had gotten together back together after being on hiatus forever. And I wanted to know how the fuck Mike Patton was capable of doing so much vocally in a live show because I was taking vocal lessons and I was like, this is ridiculous. How the hell is he hitting every single note and covering every single style? What the fuck is this guy doing? And they played in Boston where I was going to school, and I just happened to bump into him in the street. So I started talking to him and I didn't fanboy him, but we just started having a conversation about vocals and about warming up and whatever. Dude was totally cool with me, told me everything I wanted to know. And again, I made a big point of being really, really respectful of his time. About five minutes after that, some fan boys came up and started basically I'd say, man, flirting.

(00:20:57):

I'd say that's what I think these fan boys do that makes people really, really uncomfortable. They just started punishing the hell out of him, and you should have seen the cold shoulder that he gave them. So

Speaker 2 (00:21:09):

Male punishers.

Speaker 4 (00:21:11):

I honestly think that the male punishers are the same psychological profile as the female groupies. They're just in heterosexual form, but they still have the same nasty void in their soul that they need filled. But that's a whole other topic

Speaker 2 (00:21:30):

For

Speaker 4 (00:21:30):

Sure. But anyways, about the Mike Patton thing, some people might think he's a dick if they were the ones getting cold shouldered because they approached him in a disrespectful way that was very demanding of him, and I think he was fucking cool as hell, and I approached him in a respectful way that took into consideration that the whole world wants to know what he's doing.

Speaker 2 (00:21:54):

That's a good point. I always hear people saying like, oh yeah, I met this rockstar and he was such a dickhead to me. It's like, well, were you being an idiot? Were you bothering him when he is trying to get a fucking sandwich between interviews or something? It is. People don't really consider all the shit that you have to do when you're in that position and all of expectations there are of you every single day. It's a lot of shit.

Speaker 3 (00:22:23):

It's a lot of pressure. And sometimes people are just in a bad mood. You just got to be, like you said, respectful. I mean, when I was in a band and we toured, for example, I remember, I don't want to say names because I don't want to get in trouble, but one particular tour we did, and it was arena tour, five to 10,000 people. And the two bands we were on with, I'll say the name of the band because it was great, but Jacoby from Papa Roach came up to us, we were the crappy opener. And he was like, oh, you guys were awesome. We hung out, and he was just very helpful. And then as opposed to the headliner, again, I'm not going to say he was just like, we were like, Hey dude, what's up? He's just like, fuck off and just completely. So you got to be non imposing. That's the way.

Speaker 4 (00:23:01):

Say that again. Fuck off.

Speaker 3 (00:23:03):

Fuck off.

Speaker 4 (00:23:04):

That's pretty great.

Speaker 3 (00:23:05):

That's exactly how he talks.

Speaker 4 (00:23:06):

Well, yeah, but I think that just if people are wondering why we're going off on this tangent, it's not a tangent. Mentors are out there, and it's not impossible to think that you can get somebody that you idolize to help you out, even if it's one conversation. It doesn't mean they're going to take you in for eight months and train you every day in a movie where you become a Jedi master, but even to have a conversation or a few conversations or possibly an internship or whatever, these things are totally possible if you approach people in a respectful way that's not demanding. Keywords not demanding. I feel like especially online, people are way too demanding of people.

Speaker 2 (00:23:54):

It's easy to be demanding online.

Speaker 4 (00:23:57):

They don't realize they're talking to another human being.

Speaker 2 (00:23:59):

Yeah. It's like you're just typing some text and it's too simple, it's too easy. And that's a good point.

Speaker 3 (00:24:04):

No, absolutely. It's a good point. I mean, again, it just comes back to respect and you really just need to go in and if you're going to approach a mentor, just find a time when they're not pulling their hair out from stress and pressure and just approach them with respect and say, Hey, be honest and don't kiss ass too much. Just go in and be yourself, and you should be fine and listen carefully when they talk.

Speaker 4 (00:24:27):

Absolutely. I know that I wouldn't be anywhere near where I am today without mentorship.

Speaker 2 (00:24:32):

Really.

Speaker 4 (00:24:34):

Absolutely. Fucking absolutely.

Speaker 2 (00:24:35):

Name some of the people that has been a part of that.

Speaker 4 (00:24:38):

Okay. Well, let me just say I did one internship and it lasted three hours and then I left.

Speaker 3 (00:24:44):

You were interning for me, huh?

Speaker 4 (00:24:48):

Probably. No, this was in 2003. Well, I was already making a living off my studio or 2004, and I was like, well, I should try to be an intern because that's the path of success. Or I went and I left. But that's a side story along the way, mentorship, I've gotten mentorship from Colin Richardson, from Andy sne from

Speaker 2 (00:25:09):

That's badass.

Speaker 4 (00:25:09):

Sweet. I cannot say enough how badass that was. And James Murphy, Jason Soff and Mark Lewis have all been huge mentors. And then even now being friends with guys that are way further up the ladder than me and a dude like Jay Rustin, anytime that he gives me a little kernel of advice, it's like, oh my God, the universe just showed its light to me. But I mean, yeah, in my more formative years, I was definitely getting help from those big dudes, and if it wasn't for them, I don't know where I'd be. And it was nothing formal, especially in the early years when I would bother Andy for advice. It was over a IM instant messenger,

Speaker 3 (00:26:08):

Right? A SL.

Speaker 4 (00:26:09):

Yeah, dude. But he was more than helpful. And then when the band finally got signed and Colin was mixing our album and Andy helped out, he even became more helpful. And again, if it wasn't for him taking the time to really help me out, I probably would've been held back a few years in my development. And I'm sure that most guys, not everyone, but I'm sure that most guys have some story like that, that either they formally interned for somebody or somewhere along the way somebody badass was like, no, do it like this. Quit wasting your fucking time.

Speaker 3 (00:26:45):

Don't waste my

Speaker 1 (00:26:45):

Motherfucking time.

Speaker 2 (00:26:48):

Yeah. On that note, let's go into the six ingredients for success. And this is kind of like a Mark Zuckerberg thing, but it really does apply to success, starting with ambition, the topic, don't settle for the live for the weekend lifestyle. You got a lot of people who work nine to five and don't ever put any effort into changing their life. They just roll with the punches. And a big part of success is the ambition.

Speaker 3 (00:27:24):

Well, Joey, why don't you tell us your story? We were talking about this a few days ago on the phone. Why don't you tell us your story because you think you've got a great story when it comes back to ambition and really overcoming hurdles in life. Yeah,

Speaker 4 (00:27:37):

I'd like to hear that too.

Speaker 2 (00:27:38):

Yeah. Well, when I started, I didn't know exactly what I was doing, but as I came across people who wanted to work with me, I felt challenged. I felt like I needed to take risks. I was working a regular job and I would just not go to work. And instead, I would go to the studio and mess around with audio and stuff and ignore the calls from my boss and just maybe that's not the best advice, but that's what I fucking did and it worked.

Speaker 4 (00:28:14):

But you know what, man, here's the thing also, which sucks, but there is a little bit of luck involved with it where, so if everybody is like, I'm going to tell my boss to fuck off and do this, A lot of people are just going to get fired and not

Speaker 3 (00:28:34):

Make it

Speaker 4 (00:28:35):

And also not make it. But I feel like there's something else that you probably had that gave you the confidence to make bold moves like that. I think that you didn't just make a bold move out of nowhere.

Speaker 2 (00:28:51):

I don't know if you can be ambitious. I think you're either naturally ambitious. I don't know if you can try to be ambitious is what I'm saying. I don't think you just say, oh, I want to be ambitious today. No, it's just something that's a part of you. It's in your blood. Yeah,

Speaker 3 (00:29:07):

Totally. Totally. It's not intrinsic really for a lot of people. And it's really, I feel like the people that are really ambitious are the people that really know what they want and why they want it and are able to put two and two together. Because most people are like, well, I want to be fill in the blank. I want a bunch of money or success or chicks or whatever. But the people that are really ambitious, they really have something driving them deep down in their soul, in their core, and they're able to identify with that for whatever reason, and they just wake up and they have that fire under their ass. I'm going to do this no matter what, and then they just do it. And I've been trying to figure that out my whole life. Why do some people have that? And some people don't just,

Speaker 4 (00:29:44):

Well, the thing is, some people develop it at some point in life. For instance, I agree with you guys that either it's there or it's not. But I don't think that that's a permanent, I don't think it's like if you're born without a right arm, you're not going to grow a right arm spontaneously. So that's one thing. But there are plenty of stories where some dude has a near death experience or quits circumstance. Some sort of circumstance sparks something that just turns somebody's life around. So I mean, there are plenty of people that I think could have lived life a certain way with no ambition, and then something happens and boom, they're a changed person. That happens. But usually I think in line with what you're saying, it's not like they one day were like, I'm going to make a two year's resolution to be better this year. And then suddenly they were better. It's more like they got into a car wreck, almost died, three of their friends died, and suddenly this massively horrible, psychologically traumatizing situation made something in their brain click that's forever on. So either whether you get it from birth or you get it sometime in life, it's either on or off. I think it's like a switch. And I've noticed that in myself. It's not always on with me. And when it's off, it's off. I feel like such a loser.

Speaker 2 (00:31:25):

And if you want to be successful and that ambition switch hasn't been turned on yet, I mean, I don't know. What kind of advice can we offer to maybe try and force that thing to be turned on?

Speaker 4 (00:31:40):

Well, I think it's important to see your situation for what it is, not better, not worse. I think it's a multi-step thing. You got to get real honest about where you're at so that you're not beating yourself up over stupid shit. A lot of people do, but you're also not overblowing the situation. You try to see things for where they're at and then try to imagine them way better. So you get

Speaker 2 (00:32:08):

That's part of vision too.

Speaker 4 (00:32:09):

Exactly. And I think that they go hand in hand though, because if you have a vision for something way, way better than where you're at right now, and you can see it, feel it, hear it, everything about it, you'll naturally become a lot more motivated. So I think there's ways to get there, but it doesn't just happen. You have to have some sort of vision for success. Otherwise, what's the point of what are you being ambitious for? They go together.

Speaker 3 (00:32:40):

That vision too is really what helps you filter out all the bullshit when everybody's saying, oh, why don't you get a real job in health insurance and stop trying to record bands for five bucks an hour or whatever.

Speaker 2 (00:32:53):

Maybe that's not in your fucking vision.

Speaker 3 (00:32:55):

You got to have the real vision. What really keeps you stable if you focused on the big picture, no matter what the detractors say. And again, that's going kind of back to what we were talking about earlier. No matter what the detractors say, and however people say, Hey man, blah, blah, blah, blah, in the top of your head, what direction you're going. And you can really focus on that and not let any negative influences influence you. You can just focus on pushing forward and achieving that through ambition.

Speaker 4 (00:33:21):

So maybe we can say that ambition is a feeling, like you said, that burning thing. It's like that fire under your ass that makes you just go. So ambition is a feeling and vision is more like, I guess taking that feeling and zeroing it in to something tangible. I've got this feeling. I know I've got to do something. I'm a special snowflake. Look at me. But this, well, I mean, look, you got to feel like you're a special snowflake if you're going to do something special. I hate to say it, but it's true. You did need to look out for number one and see yourself as something special in order to do something special. But once you have those feelings, refine them with a vision like This is what I'm going to actually channel these feelings into.

Speaker 2 (00:34:17):

When I started, I had a pretty clear vision, and it didn't really happen until after everything kicked in. And I kind of knew like, oh, wow, it wasn't just one or two bands that wanted to work with me. It's one or two bands every month or whatever. And it got to the point where I sat down and I said, okay, this is how I want to see myself. I want to see myself working with Adam d. I want to see myself having plaques on my wall. I want to see myself winning a Grammy. I want to see, I work with this band. And I wrote all these things down. And at the time, I was being approached by a manager and he was trying to manage me, and I was trying not to have him manage me. So I gave him this list of things that I wanted to accomplish, which was basically my vision. And he read it and he's like, okay, no problem. And I was like, yeah, right. We'll see two

Speaker 4 (00:35:16):

Weeks.

Speaker 2 (00:35:17):

Two

Speaker 4 (00:35:17):

Weeks.

Speaker 2 (00:35:18):

And a lot of that stuff actually happened, and it's amazing. I still haven't won a Grammy yet, but in my vision, and it's going to be a part of my ambition and it'll be a part of my success.

Speaker 4 (00:35:31):

Well, when I was, just to echo what you're saying, when I was about 17, I already had lots of different goals. I already knew that I wanted to achieve this and that, but when I was 17, I kind of wrote down my own kind of life plan, which was something, this is a very simple version of it. And my twenties, I'm going to be in a band that's a real band. Hopefully it gets big, but either way, it's going to be a real band. In my thirties, I'm going to do studio stuff and start developing different entrepreneurial ventures. And in my forties, I'm going to write movies, not movies. I'm going to write music for movies. So, so far so good. And I mean it was way more detailed than that. Obviously. I'll spare you guys all the details, but so far it's been working out like that.

(00:36:27):

And again, my band may not have been the biggest band ever, but we sure as fuck did a lot of stuff and that's right in line. And it led exactly to my next goal, which is to start doing studio stuff. And I think that if I hadn't laid it out like that, I wouldn't have known which opportunities to really respond to because life is full of opportunities and the ones that you choose to go with are going to determine everything. So you need to make sure that they're in line with what you want or you'll end up at some random spot in your future.

Speaker 2 (00:37:03):

And that has a lot to do with the next one, which is execution. And the motto is, if you don't follow through, you'll never make a move. And that's something you got to be realistic with yourself. If you think you want this, but you never really go into the studio and spend eight hours messing around with guitar tones or whatever, then maybe you're not cut out for the success that's involved here. And that's what the execution is all about. It's like you got to really do shit, and you got to be honest with yourself.

Speaker 4 (00:37:39):

Yeah,

Speaker 3 (00:37:40):

Absolutely.

Speaker 4 (00:37:40):

You got to be willing to move mountains.

Speaker 3 (00:37:42):

Absolutely. I mean, I'll give you guys a good example of story. Remember I'll bring it back to the band Vinyl theater. They just got signed and they're hot off the press. They were a local band the first time they came into me. They had no idea what they're doing. And so I sat down with them and I told them what they needed to do. And most bands that I have that talk with about branding and this and that and imaging and writing songs that are going to be marketable, and they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, dude, we're going to do it. We're going to do it. But the difference between them and all of the other bands that I had worked with say that year in prior years, the reason they made it and the reason they got signed to a major is because they executed a freaking beast.

(00:38:19):

I mean, they were a military discipline machine. I mean, they're just absolutely incredible. The watch behind the scenes because it's like I'll be like, okay, guys, do this, this, and their management will lay out a bunch of stuff for 'em, and then they do all of it. And then you're like, wow, you guys are really on top of your shit. Okay, well let's do this. And then they just never disappoint you. And I watched those guys execute nonstop no matter if it was a good cycle or a bad cycle or this or this or that drama happened. And they just had an amazing ability to come together, the four of those guys as a team and really just execute and constantly deliver under pressure no matter what the situation is, no matter how bad or good, they always made a positive opportunity out of it. And just their discipline and execution, I really believe is one of the reasons that band just blew up and started doing really good and got a major deal because they just have a certain level of work ethic and execution that most people just don't have. A lot of people will tell you have it, but most people really don't. Those guys really have it, and it's really inspiring to watch. I mean,

Speaker 2 (00:39:18):

Most successful people get shit done, period. That's the big thing, period. And if you're telling people, Hey, I'll get it done by Friday, and you don't, that sucks. And that happens to everyone from time to time. Even I fall short of that. Guilty, yeah, we're all guilty of that and no one's perfect, but the point is follow through as much as you can.

Speaker 4 (00:39:45):

Well, and I think it goes even deeper than just following through. Well, I mean doesn't, nothing deeper than just following through, but the situation under which you need to follow through is super important for people to understand because there's sometimes situations that seem less than perfect or less than ideal, and a lot of people just wait. They just want everything to be perfect before they make their move. That's a myth. Like yes, you definitely need to plan because if you don't plan, you're not going to be able to spot opportunity and you won't make the right moves. But it should be, I think like 15% planning and 85% execution, something like that. And you should learn from your mistakes and keep going rather than anticipate everything that could go wrong, not execute, and then just wait for the right time and do that. I've seen so many people fuck up by not executing.

(00:40:36):

And so I think it's more important to execute and then get feedback and correct than not execute at all and save yourself for making mistakes. So you got to be willing to fuck up. You got to be willing to fall flat on your face. You got to be willing to be embarrassed, and you just got to be comfortable with all that shit. And believe me, it doesn't feel any better to fuck up even after you've had some success in your life. Rejection never gets easy. And I'm saying this, having watched interviews with say, Daniel Day Lewis or something like mega successful Dudes. He says that before every role he gets into a fetal position. I'm not saying get into a fetal position, this

Speaker 2 (00:41:20):

Is real shit.

Speaker 4 (00:41:21):

Well, he says that he gets into a fetal position brought on by fear, crippling fear that he's not going to be able to get the job done, and he still goes out and does it. I'm not saying that everybody should have those fears or go cry in the corner or whatever,

Speaker 2 (00:41:37):

Or get in a fetal

Speaker 4 (00:41:38):

Position, but what I'm saying is that no situation's perfect and everyone has doubts. You're always going to be wondering, am I acting at the right time? Am I fucking up? Could I have done better? Whatever. But that doesn't matter. You got to shut all that out and just fucking make a move. And if you made the wrong move, you will find out. And when you find out, then you correct and you make another move, otherwise you won't get anywhere.

Speaker 2 (00:42:01):

And when you make the wrong moves, it's important to have the determination to keep trying to make the right moves. And that's the next thing which is determination. And I think you have a good saying here, Al, which is don't let anyone get in your goddamn way. And it's really that simple. And it's not just anyone. It could be anything. It could be, it could even be personal fears. Don't let your fears get in your way. Don't let people get in your way. Don't let people tell you you can't do it.

Speaker 4 (00:42:33):

And that's not to say be an idiot because Well, because

Speaker 2 (00:42:38):

No, I like when people are being idiots.

Speaker 4 (00:42:40):

It's great. No, but I mean, look, sometimes you do go to a mentor for advice and they say, don't do something because it's stupid for this and this reason, and it could have been a part of your plan and they could give you a very logical thought out and correct a set of reasons for why you're wrong. And sometimes you got to just realize that you're wrong and saying, don't let anyone get in your goddamn way. Doesn't mean just be an idiot wrecking ball and go through every, you see a wall you're going to just run. Yeah. You can't just run through every brick wall you see, because eventually you're going to get a concussion. There's some walls you got to go around. Some walls are there for a reason.

(00:43:29):

It's not to say be an idiot. But that said, being intelligent, making smart choices. Yeah, don't let anyone get in your goddamn way because one thing that's true, and I know you guys can relate to this, the minute you start to try to do something different and try to pave your own way, and the minute that you start to be a little bit more successful than the guy next to you, especially if it's at something a little bit different that they may not have thought of, you're going to start to get hate. And all the people who wish that they had that idea or had that idea a year ago but didn't act on it or whatever, are going to start to try to get in your way and they will mount quite the offense against you. And this will happen if you're an entrepreneur, if you're a free thinker, whatever. So you cannot let that stuff get in your way. You just got to keep going.

Speaker 2 (00:44:18):

Oh yeah, that's a perfect point. And that's the thing that drives me crazy sometimes too, is when I'm, even some of the professionals that you work with, you get to a point where you're like, man, I don't want to waste my talent. I can produce music, I can mix music, but I can also program, I can also make audio products. And when people start to get in the way of that, it just really blows my mind. It's like, why wouldn't you want me to embrace everything that I can do and everything that I can be, and those are the people I don't fucking have time for.

Speaker 4 (00:44:56):

It's because you're doing something that they thought of and they're pissed that you are actually acting on it, or they're mad that you thought of it and they didn't think of it. But either way, it's not a good reason. There's no reason for someone to look at you and be like, he's doing something off the beaten in bath. He's doing something that improves people's lives. Fuck him. It. I

Speaker 2 (00:45:24):

Does not make sense.

Speaker 4 (00:45:25):

I get that too. I get it too, man. Ever since I started doing more of this education help out the upcoming generation thing, I started getting some hate from some people and it's like, wait a second, I'm not taking food off your table. I'm not hurting you in any sort of way. I'm not hurting anyone. I'm actually helping people. What is wrong with that? And I'm not taking your settings and giving them to the world, and I'm not telling anybody, again, I'm not giving away your keys to your castle. I'm just helping some people out that are coming up and want the help. What's wrong here? What's the problem? It's the same sort of thing. What's the fucking problem guy? What's your fucking problem? Huh? What the fuck is your problem? Like the fuck off.

Speaker 2 (00:46:17):

Hey, what is your take on determination, Joel, just from working with you? I know you're very diligent and I don't know, does that play into your determination or is it just part of you or what?

Speaker 3 (00:46:33):

I've always been a really ultra competitive guy, and I think it's because psychologically when I was a kid, I had thick glasses and I was really skinny and I sucked at sports, and I was always the last kid picked on the fricking dodgeball team, so I probably still carry a little bit of that chip on my shoulder. I wasn't good at anything until I discovered music. And then I found like, oh, don't suck at this. And so that really, for me, it was like a psychological underlayer when I found something that I naturally gravitated for. I mean, I immediately didn't want to be good at it. I wanted to be the absolute best I could be every single day and never settled. So one thing that I would say, reflecting back on what you guys were saying that helps me in terms of determination is a little bit of stoicism as a business philosophy.

(00:47:16):

And what I mean by stoicism is trying to not look at the ebb and flow of the day as things that happen, like good or bad. I try to look at them as opportunities. So for example, I turned out a mix project for a band I was working on today, and I wasn't the right fit. The guy was going to be way more of a pain in the ass than I was going to get paid for. And I said, okay, what can I learn out of this? What's the opportunity? And I sat down and I found a lesson out of it and I said, okay, next time I'll say this ahead of time and it won't cause this situation. So you try to find opportunities to help you grow and become more effective and efficient without worrying too much about failing at something. You're going to make mistakes and you have to learn from them, but looking for the opportunities and the worst things that happen to you usually is where you find the gems. It's like your girlfriend breaks up with you and she cheats on you, and you're all pissed off about it and you're like, oh, my life is over. But then you meet a much better girl three months later and you're like, wow, this is the best thing that ever happened to me.

Speaker 4 (00:48:13):

There's two kinds of people when it comes to this. I don't like, there's two kinds of people, this and that, but when it comes to learning from mistakes, I've noticed, I think there's two types. There's, or maybe there's three types. There's number one, the type who fucks up, we all do, and then feels the shame and lets that define them, and they forever walk around with that chip on their shoulder, which is very, very bad. There's the type who pretend like it didn't even happen. That's bad too because you got to be aware of how you fucked up. Learning from your mistakes does not mean pretending like you didn't fuck up, but it also doesn't mean that you need to walk around beating yourself up for it. I think the third type, which is the way to be, is to say you own it. Okay, I fucked up. What did we learn from it? What could I have done better? And the next time the situation comes around, you've hopefully done the mental work to where you're not going to fuck up the same way. And if you do fuck up again, at least, at least you can spot a pattern. You can start to say, okay, in this type of situation, I overreact and it's happened this time and this time and this time. This is a real problem. I need to deal with this.

Speaker 2 (00:49:28):

That's something I really connect with too. I definitely have had my moments online and it takes time, but I am determined to overcome those problems. I look at each one, I talk to different people that I trust and I say, do I really look like I'm in the wrong here? And they're like, yes, and here's why. And it just takes the ability to actually listen and absorb that advice is also part of it, and that's what makes you overcome that kind of stuff.

Speaker 4 (00:50:01):

Absolutely. Makes

Speaker 2 (00:50:01):

You learn

Speaker 4 (00:50:02):

From it. Whereas if you take whatever you're talking about, say you were to just get depressed about it, like, oh, I fucked up. I'm going to just live on the couch from now on because I fucked up. Some people do. That's not good either. I think what you just said, taking an area where you know could have done better or maybe you should have acted differently and looking into it and talking to people about it, getting help, whatever. I think that that's what winners do. I can tell you I've done that at multiple different times in my life and it's always worked out. It's just, it's difficult for people, for some people more than others because of whatever reasons. It's difficult to admit it to yourself. You look at Hollywood or look at politics, and you look at the people who have been around for really, really long time. They've all had time periods where the world gangs up on them, and they've all had time periods where their career goes when they're on the outs as a politician, they're on the outs as an actor, and somehow they bounce back. What's his name? I don't follow him. Robert Downey Jr. Oh

Speaker 2 (00:51:18):

Yeah. Do

Speaker 4 (00:51:19):

You remember when he was like the bad guy? Yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:51:22):

You need people like me so you can point your fucking fingers. I say, that's the bad guy.

Speaker 4 (00:51:28):

You remember when he was the bad guy in Hollywood for his drug problems? He was a huge star. Then he became the bad guy. I guess he got arrested for Coke possession, something I don't even know or care, but it was something like that. And then he comes back with the Ironman series and gets a $50 million contract,

Speaker 2 (00:51:49):

And

Speaker 4 (00:51:49):

It's a great, great example right there of just because something bad happens and doesn't mean that you have to then let that define you,

Speaker 2 (00:52:00):

And you're determined to make it out of that alive.

Speaker 3 (00:52:03):

I'll add to that very, very quickly that you can't let other people's experiences define you too, just because somebody else had a hard time and struggled at something. Everybody's different, and we all have different paths, and sometimes people will see somebody fail at something and just immediately assume like, oh, yeah, I can't do that. But that's not the truth. Your path is different than the guy next to you, and you can't really let that person be the cornerstone for whether or not you were going to be successful at that.

Speaker 4 (00:52:31):

That goes back to what you were saying earlier, man, and what we were talking about with that Gene Simmons story that I said about him laying on the bed saying, don't listen to people who have failed at this. Listen to me. I did it. Right. And what you were saying about paying attention to the winners, yeah, just because someone did fuck up at something doesn't mean that you're going to,

Speaker 2 (00:52:50):

Let's talk a little bit about luck, and this is a tricky topic because some people think luck is just a ferry floating around in air and lands on certain people's heads, but I look at it a lot differently than that. I think luck is more about having your life or your environment set up in such way so that those type of opportunities or those type of situations just appear setting yourself to be in the right place at the right time. There's a lot to that, of course. I don't know. Tell me a little bit about your guys' experiences in terms of setting yourself up to be in the right place at the right time.

Speaker 4 (00:53:30):

So casting a net, dude, it's definitely casting a net across life and being aware of when you've got a tire and when you've got a fish in that net. Yeah, there are some people that do get the magical ferry that lands on their head. It does happen like winning the lottery, but then again, they still did have to go buy that ticket and enter into the contest. So there is a little bit of right place, right time, and they did still set themselves up for it. The magical lottery fairy will not land on your head if you don't play the game. So while the odds of that game, boom, yeah, well look, the odds of that game are stacked against you, but you still have to play it in order to win. And I know that in my life I've had a lot of good luck getting signed a roadrunner, getting the partnership here at Audio Hammer, getting the Creative Live thing happening. I've had so many different things in my life that have happened that could be considered lucky, but they all came out of a situation that I designed and I created. If it wasn't going to

Speaker 2 (00:54:44):

Exactly,

Speaker 4 (00:54:45):

Yeah, if it wasn't going to be Roadrunner, it would've been something else. When I was trying to get signed, my whole idea was a, we had to create music that's good enough to be national or international. So that's first and foremost. B, I need to get the word out throughout enough channels to where enough people are talking about it to where the name is on the tip of people's tongues. C, I need to create enough relationships to where when the word is out and the music is good enough, the situation like the environment exists to where contacts will talk about us favorably to each other, and there'll be enough people, I guess, in the world who know about us to where something luck can happen. And that's exactly what happened. I printed up 25,000 CDs on my own, some help for the band here and there, but mostly on my own, handed them out out of backpacks at shows.

(00:55:47):

I took out advertisements out of my own pocket, the money I made from recording in national and regional magazines. And I did this month after month after month until finally somebody said, oh, hey, we're in this magazine. We're interviewing this guy, James Murphy. He's looking to mix a band that he wants to help get signed, and you guys are the most determined band. We know you want to meet him. And so yes, I want to meet him. And then he is the dude who eventually got assigned. But had I not handed out those 25,000 CDs, had I not placed all those advertisements, I wouldn't have been in the spot where the person who was interviewing James Murphy for their magazine had thought of me as the person to get in touch with him. The job at Audio Hammer is a very, very similar situation. I mean, every great thing in my life that's happened has been a result of stacking a few different things together strategically to create a situation. Whereas again, if it wasn't Roadrunner, it would've been something else.

Speaker 2 (00:56:52):

Perfect example of luck. Yeah. I also want to bring up the point that you can never overdo it. So all of those little things that you did really did add up. And the moment you can think of another thing that will increase that right time, right place situation, you should do it. You should always do, stack it up as high as you can. What's some examples of luck? Well, not luck, but things that lead to luck for you, Joel?

Speaker 3 (00:57:20):

Well, I mean, I think it really goes back to, I mean, you guys have beautifully articulated the point on luck, and I wholeheartedly agree with absolutely everything being said because at least for me in my life, everything that's been stated is spot on. And it's really just like El said, you got to put out a net and you have to fish out a bunch of lines and you got to see what's hitting. And it's kind of like, I'll give you an example, producing, when I started off, first time I walked into a studio, I'd never had an idea I was going to be a producer, but I really wanted to be a guitar player at the time. And I was like, wow, this is really cool. And something intrinsically spoke to me about being in the studio, and I just had a natural interest in doing it.

(00:57:59):

And you could say, oh, I got lucky. I got in at a time when it was easier to break into the market and blah, blah, blah. But it was really a slow long crawl. And again, you have to put yourself in the position to be lucky. And some of the bands that I've broken and got signed and things like that, I mean, what separates one band from another? Sometimes a band gets signed that you'll never think will get signed, and sometimes you see a band, you're like, there's no way that band's getting signed. And all of a sudden they're freaking huge. And I mean, I've seen it happen a million times. It's just really, like you guys said, putting the calculus together and putting yourself in the position to be lucky.

Speaker 2 (00:58:34):

Yeah, that's all that has a lot to do with timing.

Speaker 3 (00:58:38):

True.

Speaker 2 (00:58:39):

That's a good thing to bring up as well, is you're not the first person to do anything and you won't be the last. So based on what you just said about how some bands appear to just blow up out of nowhere, that's definitely not true. I mean, of course it happens, there's anomalies, but the main thing to think of is look at Attila. They're doing pretty good right now, but they've been a band for 10 years, and so they were doing all of the ingredients of success that whole time, and then boom, their time happened. It's not about sitting around and doing X, Y, Z and say, okay, we did everything on the list and we still aren't signed. Or I've recorded 500 bands and I still haven't got to do a label project yet. That's not when you throw in the towel because then the timing will never come.

Speaker 4 (00:59:30):

Well, I think also what you're saying right there is really, really important. I want to analyze it for a second. The band that does X, y, Z and then says, why am I not signed? Because that X, Y, Z probably came from somebody else. Like this person did X, Y, Z, so now I'm going to do X, Y, Z. Why isn't it working? And the thing is that in order for any of this stuff to be true, you have to find your own steps, your own X, Y, Z. And that's what makes it hard. And that's why not everybody can succeed, but you have to approach this a lot more like say, gorilla warfare than traditional warfare. A traditional warfare where you can plan it like a football game. You have to plan it more like a method of improvising, looking for opportunities, capitalizing on them, and then assessing where you are in terms of opportunities and what you can create based off of what you've already achieved.

(01:00:41):

So it's a process of continually assessing your situation and looking at what options you have. And so if you just said, I did X, Y, Z, what the fuck? Why am I not huge? Well, it doesn't work that way. The band that came before you that did X, Y, Z, they figured out those steps while they were going on their path to success. Nobody told them in the big magical book of how to get signed that you do X, Y, Z. So they created that for themselves. And so I think that the important thing in creating your own luck is that yet to be very, very open to your environment and be able to read it like a book and hopefully you know how to read. Well then listen, hopefully they know how to listen to what we're saying.

Speaker 3 (01:01:34):

Timing, guys, at least I like to develop bands and really find a talent, somebody who's nobody and sit down with them and really teach them all the things that go in to succeed. And one of the biggest things and biggest mistakes I think I see a lot of bands make is the market timing. One of the things, okay, we want to get signed. Okay, well, if you say you want to be a major label artist, okay, well, you need to write hits and on every single album, and if you cannot write smash hits, you really don't have a career. You got to have the look, you got to have blah, blah, blah. But the point is, the market timing is so important because people are like, well, I have all the things I need to make it, and they have this attitude. I'm like, okay, well, when you put your music on, if you listen to the top 10 in your genre and the radio and then put your songs up, did you really think honestly when you're being honest with yourself that your stuff sounds exactly like it could fit in that rotation?

(01:02:20):

If it's not, you're not ready to be signed and people have the hardest time, well, that's bullshit, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, well, no, it's not. Because if you guys had some smash song and your market timing was perfect, you would already be blowing up and people would be hounding you down to sign you because they see an opportunity to build a successful brand and one that everybody's going to win and make money in. And a lot of people just don't understand that, well, I'm going to play in an eighties thrash metal band. We're going to get huge. I mean, I made the same mistake in my twenties. I played in a band where we were 20 years out of date and we're like, well, we can all play your instruments really well, so we're going to get signed. Well, no, we didn't know what the hell we were doing.

(01:02:56):

Just market timing is one of those things that is so easy to screw up, and you have to really, really, really be honest with yourself. And I just see that mistake made over and over and over by bands. They really have to look at what is not only in now, but what is coming in, and be able to predict that and deliver something that's going to be fresh that X, Y, Z hasn't delivered already, and find that niche in that spot that sounds like them, that's authentic and unique that people are really going to latch onto and identify with. And that's where market timing really just

Speaker 4 (01:03:27):

Is easier said than done, of course.

Speaker 3 (01:03:29):

Absolutely.

Speaker 4 (01:03:30):

But it, in order to be able to do that, you definitely have to be out there, like I said, gorilla warfare. You need to be out there with your ear to the ground and aware of what's going on around you and able to spot opportunities and know what's coming around the corner. If you're just in a room analyzing, well, this rockstar in 1970 did this or whatever, and we're going to do this, well, that's not going to work. Or even it's abandoned five years ago. So when people hit me up and are like, what did.do to get signed? I always hesitate to talk about it because if you think that you're going to go print up 25,000 CDs now, hand those out at shows and take out some ads and some magazine that's going to work. It's not you're sorely mistaken, you're going to spend a lot of money for no reason. Hopefully what people are picking up from it is that what we did was appropriate for our time period, and people need to be doing what's appropriate for their time period now, and they will never figure out what that is if they don't get out there and try and get some feedback, analyzing that term analysis paralysis. You analyze too much and think about it too much. You're not going to be executing and without execution, you're shit.

Speaker 2 (01:04:56):

Yeah. I want to start to close this up here, but I want to say, and this is kind of hard to understand it first, but I really like this phrase and it's no one really knows what the fuck they're doing anyway.

Speaker 4 (01:05:14):

It's true. Love

Speaker 2 (01:05:15):

It. And it kind of has a lot, lot to do with nerves. You might be out there trying to do this whole thing and being nervous about it, but keep in mind that everyone's been in that place on their way up and you figure it out, you learn. You live and learn. And that's so true in not just the whole music thing and the band thing, but also in the whole producer thing. You might even do a record and it's awful and it flops and that's okay because now you learned how to not make you know what to not do if you want to make a good record.

Speaker 4 (01:05:57):

Yeah. Well, I think also I can say that I still feel that way and I'm trying to do things now that I would've never dreamed of 10 years ago, Joe, we've talked about some of these things in detail. We can't talk about them, but here, but point is some of these things that we're talking about doing in the future, they are just as scary to me now as jumping in with a band was a little bit over 10 years ago, and they're just as unknown to me as when I first started maxing out credit cards to buy microphones. It is just as much of a risk. It's not like I've had some success. So now these new ventures, yeah, it's going to go great. I know everything there is to do. I'm just going to do 'em and they're going to be awesome. It's not like that at all. It's still no one knows what the fuck they're doing anyway, still applies. That never changes. And I guarantee you that the president of the United States feels the same way when he's faced with a tough decision that doesn't change. So that feeling of uncertainty should embrace that shit and just move forward. That's my opinion.

Speaker 3 (01:07:07):

Yeah. There's one thing for success driven people, a phrase that I've always kind of embraced is no one who's really ever accomplished anything when they started knows how they're going to get there. You just go and then your vision develops, and your ambition and execution and et cetera kick in, but you just have to start. That's really the most important thing because you can sit there and talk about how you're going to do this and that, and it's going to be badass all day. But the difference between the people who get there and the people who don't, the people that just get it done. And that's really, you don't have to be the best, the smartest, the fastest, the most creative, but if you're still there, still standing and you just get started, that's it. I mean, I'll give an example. All the people that I came up with and played music with in bands and rivals and friends and et cetera, the only reason that I'm doing this for a living and they all eventually failed at what they want to do is I'm still here. I never gave up. And no matter what the circumstances, I just adapted, I changed. I was willing to just be like, all right, well, I screwed this up, so let's move on and how can I not make that mistake? And you just have to start and you have to move forward, and you have to develop a vision and just execute. It's really what it comes down to.

Speaker 2 (01:08:17):

That's a pretty good summary of all the things. And that's kind of like what we're trying to get across here is there are some ingredients for success, and it takes a combination of all of them. You can't have five or four or three, you got to have all six. And the ones we covered, just to recap our ambition, vision, execution, determination, luck and timing. And there's a lot of different perspectives on how all of this works. And I'm certainly not saying that the three of us know exactly how everyone should become successful, but we do know how we became successful, and that's what we're trying to share with you and just try to offer up a little bit of encouragement on whatever you're trying to do. Hopefully you can become inspired from some of our stories or from just some of our advice

Speaker 4 (01:09:07):

And just to take what you're saying a step further. Okay, so yeah, we know what worked for us, but I got to also say that minds attract so successful people find other successful people. This is why you see sports players, major leaguers hanging out with other major leaguers regardless of their team. This is why politicians are friends with politicians, why top actors are friends with other top actors like mines attract. So not only do we have our own stories, but we also our circle of peers who have done well for themselves. We've got their stories too. And there's lots of things in common between what we've done personally and what our peers have done. Our stories might not be the same. Like Joey, my story is nothing like yours if you look at it on the surface, but there's a lot of things in common, and I know that to be the case between me and a lot of people that are in my peer group that I admire. So we've got our own experience, but we also have a whole network, a whole peer network of people who have done similar things, which is why I feel strongly about this list of ingredients that we were talking about today, because I've seen it over and over and over.

Speaker 2 (01:10:28):

Hell yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:10:29):

Hell yeah, brother.

Speaker 2 (01:10:31):

One point black tooth grin. So yeah, I just want to thank you guys again for listening in on the podcast, and if you have questions you want us to answer, just go to www.joeysturgis.com/podcast and we will try and answer whatever we can. If you've got some topic ideas, also let us know that we're going to attempt to do one podcast a week. We'll probably try and bring some guests on and answer your questions and talk about the stuff you want to hear us talk about and listen to your feedback and take it from there. I want to thank you guys, Joel and Al for being here with me, and these guys are going to be here with me every week.

Speaker 4 (01:11:16):

Well, thanks. Thank

Speaker 2 (01:11:17):

You. That's all I can say. It's been fun.

Speaker 4 (01:11:20):

Happy to be here.

Speaker 2 (01:11:22):

Awesome. So yeah, thanks for listening and tune in next week. I don't know what we're going to be talking about L

Speaker 3 (01:11:29):

One on everything.

Speaker 2 (01:11:34):

As a closer, put L one on everything

Speaker 3 (01:11:38):

The way, all the way down, and all the way up on the output. The only possible setting.

Speaker 4 (01:11:44):

Do that and you'll win at everything. Alright guys. Signing out. See

Speaker 1 (01:11:49):

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