SEAN Z: What Artists Need From Producers, The Art of Self-Recording, Ditching the SM7B

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast, and now your host, Eyal Levi. Welcome to the URM podcast. Thank you so much for being here. It's crazy to think that we are now on our seventh year. Don't ask me how that all just flew by, but it did. Man, time moves fast and it's only because of you, the listeners, if you'd like us to stick around another seven years and there's a few simple things you can do that would really, really help us out, I would endlessly appreciate if you would, number one, share our episodes with your friends. Number two, post our episodes on your Facebook and Instagram and tag me at a Levi URM audio and at URM Academy and of course our guest. And number three, leave us reviews and five star reviews wherever you can. We especially love iTunes reviews. Once again, thank you for all the years and years of loyalty.

(00:01:01):

I just want you to know that we will never charge you for this podcast, and I will always work as hard as possible to improve the episodes in every single way. All we ask in return is a share a post and tag us. Oh, and one last thing. Do you have a question you would like me to answer on an episode? I don't mean for a guest. I mean for me, it can be about anything. Email it to [email protected]. That's EYAL at m dot A-C-D-E-M-Y. There's no.com on that. It's exactly the way I spelled it. And use the subject line Answer me Eyal. Alright, let's get on with it. Hello everybody. Welcome to the URM Podcast. My guest today is someone that I've known for going on 20 years now. It's Sean Z, the vocalist of my band daath. He's also one of the vocalists in a band called atu, another band called Vented.

(00:02:02):

He used to be in Chimera and always doing something. He's always been, in my opinion, one of the very, very best of the best vocalists in all of metal, and I've always felt that if someone doesn't think that, it's just because they don't know. And something that I felt would be relevant for all of you who listen to this podcast is, first of all, his level of technical skill is just very interesting, but he's also very good at recording and he's a very good example of what is possible when a musician decides to not only get good at their craft as in their instrument, but also get good at these modern recording tools that we all know and love. He's a good example also of even with all these great tools that we know and love. That sounds so amazing. He's a great example of someone who's a proponent of working with great producers, and I'm saying that for people who think that these modern tools eliminate the need for a producer.

(00:03:23):

We talk a lot about that and about the process of working with great producers. And really, I think that if you are trying to build a career either as a vocalist or a band member or as a producer is a really, really good episode for you. I think from a producer's perspective, it's always helpful to hear how artists think of you and what they're expecting when they go to the studio and what a good experience is for an artist, not just that. I thought it would be cool to have Sean on because I mean, some of you may know, some may not know. Our band doth was on hiatus for about 12 years. Back in the day, we used to be signed a Roadrunner and Century Media, put out several records, did the whole thing, lots of touring music videos on MTV's Headbangers Ball. We did the thing and then we went on hiatus, which I was never happy about, but that was reality.

(00:04:34):

And only in the past year and a half did we decide to resurrect it. We had to resurrect it as something very different than it was before just because we're in a new world, new personnel, it just different. Before even releasing a song song, we got signed to our favorite metal label metal blade records. And this is now a thing. It's a thing. It's interesting to have the perspective of someone who did have a dormant project who then did make it real. Again, it goes to show that anything is possible, but I'll quit talking. Let's get into this. I present you Sean Z. Here it goes, Sean Z. Hey, I never call you that. I know.

Speaker 2 (00:05:24):

What do you actually even call me, Sean? Yeah, I guess so.

Speaker 1 (00:05:27):

Your name

Speaker 2 (00:05:28):

Known by my moniker, Sean Z. Welcome. Or as the Europeans would call it, Sean Zed.

Speaker 1 (00:05:34):

It's interesting having you on here just because we have quite the history.

Speaker 2 (00:05:39):

Yeah, we go way back, man. We go way back. I tell that story all the time.

Speaker 1 (00:05:44):

I don't even think I know the whole story, but I know my perspective on it was back in 2007 and I'm just wondering if this is how you see it, but the way I saw it was back in 2007, the band was having problems in the vocal department, but we were on big tours and it was causing some serious problems. I just happened to go to your band practice, you were in a local band, and I was just like, fuck, this is so much better. I seriously was sad. I was sad because I was like, we need this kind of voice. Why don't we sound like this? What is going on? And then I was just thinking about how depressing it was to have the situation that was going on at the time in front of tens of thousands of people at Oz Fest, and then I know this dude back home. That sounds awesome. So I just logged it in the back of my mind and just waited until we had an opening.

Speaker 2 (00:06:50):

The time was right. Yeah, I remember being on stage and seeing you out in the crowd for some of those local shows. And I remember you had talked to Brett for a while, and one day you came to the practice and I remember you sat in and you were like, damn, I wish you were in my band. And I was like, fuck dude. So do I. But I mean, come on, we go way back, dude. I mean I remember local shows, some were gone doth. I mean I never actually played with you guys, but I do remember seeing the shows and watching the old lineup.

Speaker 1 (00:07:20):

That's like 20 years ago.

Speaker 2 (00:07:22):

I know. Seriously, it was. I was like, man, those guys have something special. Everyone in the scene was like, the hype was real. Everyone was repping it pretty hard. And I remember when Ben had called me over and he's like, dude, you got to hear this new doth song. And it was oum and I remember it was on your MySpace page and I was just like, oh my God, the oum sounds so sick. It was like something that I had never heard before. And then you came to the practice and I think you went about your days and your weeks. Then I remember getting a call from you saying, Hey man, situation's looking imminent. No guarantees, but would you be interested in learning some vocals and some lyrics just in case? And I was like, yeah, absolutely. So I started learning them a little by little.

(00:08:05):

I remember sitting like at work, any chance I could, I'd sit there with a highlighter trying to learn the words and trying to learn my parts. And then one day you call me up and you say, Hey man, time is now. Can you quit your job and come on the road with us? And I said, how much time do I have? Three days? And I had never played with you guys before. So I remember going to local band practice and pulling all my gear and going over to your house, and we did that one practice and I think the rest is history. It just clicked

Speaker 1 (00:08:35):

Well on our end. It was a very terrifying situation. We were,

Speaker 2 (00:08:40):

I imagine, yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:08:41):

We were about to go out on tour in less than a week. So for people who don't know, so we changed vocalists in 2007 and basically we were going to go on tour literally in four days, and we had a band practice that was so disastrous. I remember a few people just drank themselves basically into a coma. We were devastated. We're like, how are we going to go out like this? I just figured I'd ask you if you wanted to go on tour in three days.

Speaker 2 (00:09:17):

I remember that. And then we left, and then that was it, man. And I remember a couple shows in, we got to the New York show, and I remember the drums got struck to the side, and I remember when we played that show in front of Monty, the band messed up on stage because they had struck the drums and there were only overheads for the drums. They didn't have enough mics. And we were at BB Kings and the band kind of got off a little because it was hard to hear the tempo and everything. And I'll never forget just I couldn't catch up. I had only really been playing a couple shows with you guys. So it was actually kind of crazy.

Speaker 1 (00:09:52):

That was a traumatic show. That was three days in playing in front of our label with this new vocalist that they didn't know anything about. When you just sign a band, you're investing all this money in a band, and then less than six months after their first record comes out, they change vocalists. I'm trying to imagine from a label perspective, that's got to be really just will destroy their confidence in what they signed. And then that first show in front of 'em, which was literally three days in, was just a shitty show. And it wasn't like you did a shitty job. It was just one of those nightmare shows where everything goes wrong. What a start.

Speaker 2 (00:10:36):

And then I'll never forget that the label was just like, I don't know if this is the guy. Monty

Speaker 1 (00:10:43):

Loves your

Speaker 2 (00:10:44):

Shit now.

Speaker 1 (00:10:44):

It only took 15 years.

Speaker 2 (00:10:46):

Yeah, it's a full circle moment for me to see him actually talk positively about me. He didn't really like me as much.

Speaker 1 (00:10:54):

No, he wasn't a fan at the beginning. I was. And it was one of those moments where the business side was pushing me in one direction and I was willing to get dropped over it, but they didn't drop us, they just licensed us off. I guess they didn't feel so badly that they wanted to drop us, but I was ready to get dropped over it. And the reason being that we did the vocal auditions and they were horrific. No offense if anyone's listening who submitted one, no offense.

Speaker 2 (00:11:26):

Yeah, of course.

(00:11:27):

Well, I mean it's that whole thing of like, okay, look, I'm already on the road with you guys. We've already connected. We've done a tour. We kind of bro down. We realized that the chemistry was there. I got along with everybody and I knew all the parts. So it's just another thing. Okay, so we got to fly a guy out, we got to see if he's cool, then we got to see if he can tour. I mean obviously the insurmountable mountain in front of you just was a task to be overtaken. And so I think that that also helped solidify my place in the band as I was already out touring with you guys. And I mean, you gave me my first start. I mean, it was what got me into the industry. And it's crazy to think of all the things that I've done that I never would've had an opportunity to do had that not happened, mean maybe. But again, not at that level because everything happened in that exact order that got me to the next level, that got me to the next level. So

Speaker 1 (00:12:21):

If I hadn't gotten the email from Monty in 2005 and we had another record deal on the table, that might've arguably been better for the band even though it was a smaller label. But had I not gotten in that email, who knows where I'd be now? I probably would've done all right, but you never know. But the thing that I thought was interesting was I've known a lot of people who are not willing to take that risk. So I've known a lot of people where a band will come to me and be like, we just lost our lead guitarist. Do you know anybody like sign bands and do you know anyone that's not famous? We want somebody from a local band who you think is the next dude or something. And there's been a few times where I've been like, I know this person. I'll connect them with that person and that person's not willing to quit their local band or take any risk whatsoever.

Speaker 2 (00:13:20):

It's a tough risk. I mean, dude, it's a tough risk. I mean, in my shoes, it was stability, job, home band, girl, everything was just in line and it was like, I'm giving all of this up to go live out of a backpack in the corner of a van. I remember sitting in your driveway, it was weird being there recently to do the photos for the new stuff. I had again, another full circle moment. I mean, it's a lot of that, and you probably hear me say this a lot, so if I get redundant, just tell me to shut up. But basically again, I was going up to my car and I just remember I'm like, this is the curb that I sat on. I'm like, should I do this? This basically is the start of the rest of my life. The war could basically be when we die because we're in a terrible van and trailer and I'm sleeping out of the back, and I always thought those doors were going to just pop open and I was just going to shoot out.

Speaker 1 (00:14:13):

Yeah, I used to worry about that too. I mean, yeah, there was nothing that said that you going on that tour would lead to anything that came afterwards. You could have just basically quit your job and fucked up the stability at home and then for no reason you weren't in the band yet.

Speaker 2 (00:14:31):

No, no, I know. Yeah. I was taking a risk just to be like, I'm going to do this. I'm going to make this work.

Speaker 1 (00:14:36):

Sean was a fill in vocalist. You were taking a risk without even having anything guaranteed.

Speaker 2 (00:14:41):

Yeah. I remember coming home off that tour and I just said to myself, I really fucking want this. I played one more show with the local band and I just said, I'm obviously past these guys now. I can't even, they hated me for it, and I'm sorry to them if any of them are listening, I never meant to do it. And I made the commitment saying, Hey, I'll continue on with it, but they just said, nah, we are looking for a more committed more, sorry, these guys are calling and it's the ticket to the next level. I guess I got to take it.

Speaker 1 (00:15:15):

It's interesting. I've tried to imagine if I was in a local band and someone in my band got into a sign band back in the day before I had a career, how would I feel about it? And I'd probably be part of me would be a little jealous probably. But then another part of me, the smart part would be like, this is great news because that's in. If we're cool about it, they might quit, but if we're cool about it, it could lead to cool things.

Speaker 2 (00:15:45):

And obviously now we know I'm in like 48,000 bands, but I have to limit that number to five. But so obviously it wouldn't have been a problem keeping up, and I think that it definitely would have been an end, but I think they obviously had other plans in mind and once it seemed like I wasn't as committed, they just said, we're going to go a different way. I said, all right, we'll see. You got to do it, man. And I moved all my shit out into your place.

Speaker 1 (00:16:11):

Yeah, lots of people I know who have successful music careers have had to take that risk in some way, shape or form at some point. Whether it means someone wants to be a producer and then they just pack their shit and go to LA without having a gig or come from another country and go to Nashville or something. I've heard this story so many different times where someone was just like, well, look, I don't have other opportunities. I have to try and make the best of it and fuck it.

Speaker 2 (00:16:47):

Yeah, I mean basically that's it. I think that's every single person in the music industry exactly their story have to take that risk. I mean, there's just no option. If you want it, you have to almost prove that you want it.

Speaker 1 (00:17:01):

A lot of people don't know. I turned down a very, very lucrative and stable future in order to do music and I don't regret it, but my grandfather owned a company back in Mexico, basically a women's bathing suit company. And when he started getting old, old as in going to die soon and he wanted to offload it and none of his kids wanted it and he wanted me, I was not qualified at all. This was his Alzheimer's talking, offering it to me, but I could have taken it and then maybe turned around and sold it or something, I don't know. But I was like, Uhuh, no, I want to do music. And I've never regretted that, but I realized that that's not a situation that's common for a lot of people. It's like poverty or I'm taking this risk on music and it's like poverty or music works or I don't fucking know. It wasn't exactly that for me, but I took something that was a very sure bet as secure forever and chose music instead. I don't regret it.

Speaker 2 (00:18:16):

I think being a musician is being in the business of changing lives, your own, and then everybody around you and then the people who you influenced by your music. And I think that's something special that not a lot of jobs provide the opportunity. This is one particular case where it's obviously destiny is the way I look at it. If you believe in that sort of thing,

Speaker 1 (00:18:39):

I don't know. But the thing I do believe in is that everyone I know in music who's done something felt like they had no choice.

Speaker 2 (00:18:48):

Yeah. It's like you're forced into it. You were always meant to do that. And you can't see the forest for the tree is all you can see is music at the end of the rainbow

Speaker 1 (00:19:00):

And you could be presented with something that's objectively incredible as another alternative and you'll turn it down. Yeah, I didn't even have to think about it. It was just like, no, I'm not doing that. I'm pursuing metal.

Speaker 2 (00:19:15):

I was a computer science major in college and I had exempted out of some of the actual classes I had to take because I was so committed to doing that. And there was just a part of me that was like, no, that's not it. It's metal.

Speaker 1 (00:19:31):

We're idiots.

Speaker 2 (00:19:32):

I'm going to scream, man. We are fucking idiots. I know, but not to say that we can't go back and do that, but I think there is that part of me that always thinks about, man, that was something I could have done, but it wasn't in my cards. Not at the moment.

Speaker 1 (00:19:47):

It's a thing that I wouldn't have been able to psychologically get through life. I didn't choose to want to do this. That's the thing is, and what was interesting is no names, but someone that I worked with before you came around really wanted this thing to stay local. First of all, I didn't understand how that's possible. How could you actually want your band to stay local? But that makes no sense to me. But this person wanted, we worked together, but he wanted to stay local. And I absolutely, under no circumstance ever would I want something that I'm doing to stay small. And we had an unraveling of our relationship because of it. And I think about that and I'm like, there is absolutely nothing that anyone could do or say that would get me to change my commitment to making the thing I'm working on go somewhere. And I've always been that way. That's just who I

Speaker 2 (00:20:50):

Am. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. I understand that. But I guess maybe I don't, especially if you are committing so much time to it, then why is it that you only want it to stay local versus actually seeing it succeed and be successful? I feel like that's what it's all about no matter what you do.

Speaker 1 (00:21:10):

Okay. So I think if you do it as a hobby,

Speaker 2 (00:21:13):

Yeah, hobby, like local bars. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:21:17):

Which is fine if that's what you want to do. If you do something else and you're doing music as a hobby, okay, cool. Well then I think it's rational to think, I don't want to get signed. My job is more important. But when we were 22,

Speaker 2 (00:21:32):

That's the whole dream. That's the appeal. You're like, why am I getting in this band? Well, you just want to play the star bar. CJ's Landing.

Speaker 1 (00:21:42):

Yeah. There was no stable home life to destroy. That's the time you take risks. But look, even now in us getting back together, one of the things that was really, really important for me was that if we're doing it, we're doing it. We're not going to do some local version of this thing that used to be cool. We're not going to do this thing that's for fun now. But it was awesome then. And now it's just kind of sad and we think it's cool, but everyone else is laughing behind our backs or something. And I wouldn't be able to take pride in that and I just wouldn't be able to commit to it. So really anything I do, I've always had to see it through to as far as it can possibly go. That's just how I'm wired. And so I would've rather not done this at all than to half-ass it.

Speaker 2 (00:22:33):

Yeah, I agree. Yeah, and I remember you came to me and when we started talking about doing it, it was my biggest thing was, look, I want my vocals to sound bigger and better than they've ever sounded. I don't want this to just be exactly that. I don't want it to be half-assed. I don't want to be disappointed with the way I sound. I don't want, I dunno. I think that was really the commitment. Why go in halfway when we should definitely be putting all we have into it with all the resources that we have available to us.

Speaker 1 (00:23:01):

Even with full lives already.

Speaker 2 (00:23:03):

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:23:07):

Alright, so that's actually a good place to talk about vocal production. That was a conversation was, alright, so we're going to do this and everything is going to be the best that's ever sounded. I mean obviously someone could prefer old stuff just taste wise or whatever, but objectively everything that we're going to do is going to be at a higher standard than it was, and it's going to be, I want us to feel like it's the best thing we've ever done. And part of that is I want vocal production for you that really, really captures what you're capable of. I felt like I was the only person that knew what you were capable of. I felt like everybody else knew that you were a sick screamer. I feel like nobody else understood how versatile you are and how many different things you can do and just how powerful your voice is. I just felt like nobody else got it and that it had never been properly captured in a recording. And so it was really important for me that the vocals actually represented you properly.

Speaker 2 (00:24:18):

And I felt that they did. I felt this was, and I think that was the commitment that you made to me was that we're going to do and try to find the best guy possible to get you heard or get your voice captured the way that it's meant to be captured. And basically modern techniques. And it was the same with the guitar stuff. Like everyone said, I want to hear what this band would sound like with modern techniques and modern equipment and plugins and et cetera. I think that's what I appreciated the most was that you had that insight into wanting to broaden my or dive into the breadth of my vocals and what was actually possible because most things I've done or Well, let's compress that. Let's bury that a little bit. Let's put that over there and we will make everything else kind of showcase. And usually I'm happy with the demos and then I'm happy with the recordings before I hear the mix. And then as soon as the mix and master comes, I'm like, ah, well, and I hate it.

Speaker 3 (00:25:16):

And

Speaker 2 (00:25:17):

That was not the case here. That was not the case here. This was next level and just allowing me to go to Andrew really made a huge difference. Just his production and his producer capabilities. I know he doesn't work with much metal, but just his understanding of quality versus quantity I guess.

Speaker 1 (00:25:39):

So for people listening, Andrew Wade produced the vocals and I was wondering how into that you were going to be. Obviously it was a mutual decision, so you could have said no, but the reason that he came to mind for me was because I had heard his heavy stuff like wage war or whatever. And so I know that he's capable of producing very heavy sounding vocals and I've known him for a long time, so I know that he is actually kind of twisted creatively. He's kind of twisted, but he understands really, really good vocal production and pop level vocal production, and I don't mean in a cheesy, sterile way, just he understands how to make vocals sound incredible and how to tweak the parts to just be as good as they can possibly be. That's

Speaker 2 (00:26:30):

What it is, man. It's the tweaking of the parts. It's the making things just to that next level. I came in with the demos and they were pretty right along the money, but he just took them to that next level that sometimes it's hard to do when you're in your own head. And I think sometimes people lose sight of what a producer does, and I constantly spend time telling them, I'm like, this is what a producer does for every band. You just don't realize it. Especially some of the big ones. I mean obviously there are bands that they have their ways and they're set in stone and I'm the only one that does my own vocals and I think sometimes the end product does suffer. It is nice to bring somebody else in, but also he wasn't overbearing. It wasn't like, well, you have to do it our way or my way or else that's it, man, I'm not going to, it was a mutual understanding of here's what I want, and he's like, here's what I think would be best. And then I would actually be able to interject and say, I don't really like that. Let's do something different. And he may come back with a round two or a round three and maybe we come to a middle ground and I think the rest is history. The songs came out really, really good and we wrote some really good parts and it was cool to get to express that.

Speaker 1 (00:27:43):

People always ask me, how do I get a career going as a producer? How do I get to work with awesome bands? And I've always thought it's the technical side of recording is just like that's assumed. If you don't know how to do that, you're not even in the conversation. Alright, so yeah, so know your shit inside and out. You've got to know your shit inside and out so well that that's not even what you're talking about. What you're talking about is the art side of it, and then you got to make people's songs better. That's it. The songs have to be one thing when the artist goes in and when it gets out, it's got to be better. If you do that consistently, you'll work with really good bands eventually.

Speaker 2 (00:28:25):

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:28:25):

That's not easy to do though.

Speaker 2 (00:28:27):

Not everybody has that talent. Again, it's just like, I guess in that respective being a musician, there's something to be said about just being amazing at what you do or just knowing it or having that natural ability that really can't be taught. I mean, I guess it can be, but the technical

Speaker 1 (00:28:45):

Side can be taught. So I'm curious your perspective as an artist. You had never met Andrew before. He was my friend, not yours.

Speaker 2 (00:28:53):

Yeah. Yeah. I mean I met him in passing when I was there a while back.

Speaker 1 (00:28:58):

Oh yeah, that's right. When you did that metal beard club, but you guys didn't know each other.

Speaker 2 (00:29:03):

No, nothing like that. No,

Speaker 1 (00:29:05):

I knew him. So there was no way of knowing that you guys would have chemistry. It was a guess. It was also a risk. So I'm wondering what did he do when you got there? Did you get immediately comfortable? How was rapport established enough to where you're making music and it's awesome?

Speaker 2 (00:29:26):

I think a lot of that has to do with personalities. Our personalities are very similar, but also I'm a very easygoing guy. I can get along with just about anybody if I need to, but I think there was some chemistry where we had equal silliness. I think being a good producer is you have to be silly, but you also have to be serious. You have to be able to break down that fourth wall of this is awkward. Okay, let's get in and record the vocals. Okay, what we're going to do now is okay. Yes, good, good. I mean it's instantly like, Hey, what up? Hey, what up? This is stupid. Let's be silly. Let's get some food. I mean just like icebreaker after icebreaker and once you get in the booth and you start kind of going, I think accepting the silliness of the person, he accepted it pretty much immediately making dumb comments or he would say something and then I would say something funny or I'd make a stupid noise or I'd mess up the vocal part and kind of roll with it and be like, that was your fault.

(00:30:28):

But I mean, just kidding and being malleable so that he could kind of work his magic on me, but then I could also kind give him a little bit of myself as well. And it was just instant. I mean, I think, again, being silly, I hate to say that in a professional setting, but there's some part of it where if you look at some of the best stuff, I love seeing the outtakes of the laughs and the hilarity and even watching the Shuga outtake from back in the day on their DVD that came on, I think it was rare tracks. There was a DVD that they had on there or a bonus material, you put it in your computer. I remember those days. And just him being silly or messing up and hearing somebody make jokes in the studio or even old corn stuff, the first album, just hearing them be stupid in the studio and messing up and them keeping it on the track. There's always that element of, come on, man. I mean this is serious, but it's also supposed to be fun. And for me, that's what makes a really good producer.

Speaker 1 (00:31:27):

Well, the thing is the music is serious as fuck, and so you need to have something. I feel like if you're being super serious and dark outside of the music, you're going to rob the music of its, you need to save that for when you're actually recording. Exactly. I feel like one of the biggest problems with recording sessions is that they are too serious. And that's why so many musicians are afraid of going to the studio because it's like, I feel like they're going to the dentist or something. It's so sterile and I think that the best producers figure out how to make it seem like you're just hanging out and having a good time, and then somehow great shit is happening too.

Speaker 2 (00:32:14):

I hit on a point when we spoke about just people being comfortable in the studio and having their parts be recorded or watched or having that confidence to be silly or mess up or know that, I mean, vocals are a weird thing. You're kind of exposing your inner self.

Speaker 1 (00:32:34):

It's you. It's not some external instrument. It's you

Speaker 2 (00:32:39):

And you have to be comfortable with how you sound. And I think you also have to not try to hide the fact that you're not writing everything. There's somebody no matter who it is, even if it's somebody in the band is helping you, because otherwise sometimes the product suffers when you're just in your own head and you're like, Nope, I don't want to hear what anybody else has to say. I know everything and I am the best. And that's not the mentality. The mentality is I want this to be the best it can be. Help me achieve that at whatever cost. So I think that's a big misunderstanding of what producers do. I was explaining to somebody just yesterday, what does the producer do? I don't understand. I'm like, well, you get in, and we kind of even wrote lyrics together and we wrote parts together and he would write a part and then I would be like, no, let's do this instead.

(00:33:30):

And then he would be like, let's do this instead. And how about you say this instead of this, okay, let's try it. And then I don't like it. And I'm like, how about we say this instead? And I think it's that openness and that back and forth that really allows the end product to really speak for itself. But again, I mean there's not many vocalists out there that aren't getting that, especially at this level. Yeah, local, I guess you got to kind of learn the ropes. I remember the first time I was at a producer, I'm like, wait, he's like telling me what to do. He's telling me the parts to say, this isn't me. I want it to be me. It's sterilizing the product. But then after you hear it and then you go home and you're like, wow, I can't believe I was going to do it the other way. I could never hear it any other way now. So I think being confident and allowing somebody to also help you is the key to a successful producer slash musician relationship.

Speaker 1 (00:34:27):

That's not the exact same thing, but that mentality is why after our Self-released Futility album, and I didn't want to mix that. It's just we didn't know anybody back then. Why? I always, even though, and I never thought that I was that good of a mixer, but lots of people have always been like, why didn't you just mix your own band? You could do it. It's like, I don't want to mix my own band because, well, first of all, it's enough of a psychological battlefield to just write this stuff in my own head, but then bringing in a mixer, they're going to take it somewhere that I couldn't even imagine because I'm so close to it. Dude, even the first time that we got a mixer that was way better than me. Even when James Murphy came in, he made it sound so much better than it was ever sounding before.

(00:35:22):

But that's the oum version you heard. It was like, man, I'm always going to be getting us good mixers. Because hearing it properly versus knowing what it sounds like with a bad mix, it's like night and day. It's like you're actually hearing the song for what it is. And I know a lot of people who in the URM group for instance, who still don't understand why you would get someone else to mix your stuff. And it's like, I want it to be good. I want to be well. I want it to be better than I could possibly make it on my own.

Speaker 2 (00:35:58):

I think a big part of that also is obviously you do have that personal relationship with it, but then you also have the sterile ears because you wrote it, you've listened to the song now a thousand times, you don't even know what sounds good anymore because you've heard the damn thing so many times it's starting to all sound the same. And so I think sometimes you'll hear the mix will suffer because not only did you write it, but then now you're having to deal with everything else. And yeah, okay, I understand you can step away and make some small adjustments, but an actual mix, you really need to give it to somebody whose ears are fresh and who has a different take on it and a different approach. And maybe they boost the guitars a little bit, or maybe they boost the vocals and it doesn't become this personal thing where, well, I'm the guitar player, so the guitars are going to be the loudest. And you don't even realize you do it. It's not you specifically, but I saying your

Speaker 1 (00:36:52):

General. It's just the tendency

Speaker 2 (00:36:54):

And I mix vocals to send to you even or to whoever, just to get a nice rough mix. And the vocals are always so fucking loud, and I don't do it

Speaker 1 (00:37:04):

Intentionally.

(00:37:06):

Whenever a band I listen to decides to self-produce, I can always tell when I hear it, I can always tell who was in charge, because if the vocals are too loud, it's like, well, we know who was the boss there. Or if the guitars are super loud, it's like Guitar player took this one over, man. Even when we went to Sweden, so we had Jens Bogar mix our first three songs back. He's mixing the rest of the album. We went to Sweden for the mix. And even with him mixing before I say what I'm about to say, I just need to let it be known that I think that his mixes are the best mixes we've ever had, and they're among, in my opinion, his best mixes ever. And I consider him to be the top of the top. So what I'm about to say is with that understood that I think nothing but amazing things about him, but even then I was losing my ability to know what I was hearing, even at the Enzos place with shit sounding as incredible as it could possibly sound. By the end, I was like, does this sound good? Am I just crazy? I know it's good. I know it's good, but I can't tell anymore.

Speaker 2 (00:38:22):

To

Speaker 1 (00:38:22):

Me, it doesn't sound like anything. I trust that I know it's good, but I know what's going on. It's like when you have an itch and you start scratching it and then it goes away and then you keep scratching it and then you just don't feel it anymore. It's like

Speaker 2 (00:38:38):

Your

Speaker 1 (00:38:38):

Brain shuts off the signals to that part of your body. It's like my brain is no longer registering this music. It's like no input anymore. So

Speaker 2 (00:38:48):

Yeah, you became numb to it.

Speaker 1 (00:38:51):

And then after not hearing it first a month, I was like, holy shit, this sounds amazing. So even with having best mixer in the world for this kind of music doing it, even then I lost perspective. So imagine how much worse it would be if I was mixing it.

Speaker 2 (00:39:07):

You wrote it and you've been listening to it bazillion times and now we're mixing it and it's just sounds like something's going to suffer no matter what it is. Something's going to be missing in the background because you don't have that fresh set of ears even waiting a month to come back and mix it. It's just different to kind of put it in somebody else's hands. And I think

Speaker 1 (00:39:27):

There's a few exceptions out there like Nali, when he was in periphery, I don't know what exactly his periphery status is, but Buster owed a home with humanity's last breath. There are some people who are somehow capable of being in the band and also producing and mixing it, but I really think that they're anomalies.

Speaker 2 (00:39:50):

Yeah, that's the 1%. Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (00:39:52):

Less

Speaker 2 (00:39:56):

0.02, a 10th of a 20th of a percent.

Speaker 1 (00:40:00):

To be able to mix as well as ly or Buster to be that good, and then also be that good at mixing your own band. It's an anomaly.

Speaker 2 (00:40:11):

And being unbiased as well. I think that's a big thing always. Like I said, you always want to turn up your own instrument, not even thinking about it. He's like, man, I can't hear me. I don't sound as good. What's happening? Let just turn that up a tiny bit.

Speaker 1 (00:40:25):

In that situation, how did you learn to trust the people around you? Because I know for me, the first time that I really had my parts cut by a producer was when we did the Concealers album and Sue Koff would cut, we'd have a song and he would just cut a minute of music I wrote, and I'd be like, I need to just trust this because I have this emotion in me that's not happy about this. But then this other side of me that's like, well, I can't listen to that side of me. The rational side of me knows that it needs to trust. I trust my band members musically. I trust this producer musically. This is getting cut for a reason. It doesn't matter how hard I worked on it, that doesn't matter. And then now years later, hearing the songs with those parts cut, I don't miss those parts that are gone. I don't remember those parts. They don't exist. They're gone. That was when I really started to learn how to trust the team, I guess because I still get that voice. I think it's natural to have that voice in your head that's like, I'm right, you're wrong. My part's awesome. But that's how I learned to be like that voice in my head is actually what's wrong right now. I trust these people. If everyone is saying it, everyone says it's better. I'm just used to it the way it was, and once I get used to it this new way, I'm going to agree with them.

Speaker 2 (00:41:57):

Yeah, that's true. I think it was the same for me. I think it was in the same era. It was the concealers. I mean specifically, like I was saying earlier, it was on the worthless actually as the song that comes to mind. And it was that opening riff that during that part I came right in with vocals. I was just like, and whatever. And then the next part that happened, I kind of let that go and I felt that was going to be instrumental. And he's like, no, no, no, no. I'm like, no. And we went back and forth and eventually it was one of those where you're like, fine, I trust you. Let's just do it. And now when I listen back, I just say, what the fuck was I thinking?

(00:42:39):

I was totally wrong? I mean, because now I hear the song and that's the part that grooves and makes the song good. But of course I'm in my head and I'm saying exactly the same thing. No, in my head I'm not hearing that. But I guess you just have to break down that stereotype of that it best about everything when sometimes somebody else can give you some insightful input. And I think that transcends to just about everything in life. But you still should have an inner feeling. You still should have that gut feeling, and you still should trust it, but you also have to know when to push pull and be like, this is probably something I can let go, and this is something I'm not going to let go. This is something that I, I stand behind it. It feels really good. Obviously that wasn't one of those cases, but still, it was a moment where I had been listening to the demos for months or weeks and however long it was, and I got in there, I'm like, no, dude, that's not right. This doesn't feel right. And then now you hear it's, I can't believe I ever saw it any other way.

Speaker 1 (00:43:32):

Yeah, it's interesting. So yeah, I think if you don't trust the people you're working with work with other people, you need to be able to trust them. Because when those situations happen, if you don't trust that they're making good decisions in cutting apart or something, then you're not working with the right people. However, that voice, you're right. You also have to know when to stand your ground of here's a for instance. So when we were writing No rest, no end, and I'm sure Crim won't mind me talking about this part of, I think we talked about it on the podcast, the whole middle section for people who haven't heard it is this long ass instrumental, just insane part. And Crim was not into it because I guess I sent him the lead without any of the rhythms or anything, and he was just like, what is this?

(00:44:22):

I was like, dude, there's going to be rifts under it. You got to trust me. But he was not feeling it, and he just had this, it's just crazy why, and lots of times I really trust him a lot. There were other parts in that song that remember the original version was way faster, crims, why it's got Slowed down. He was saying not because he couldn't play it, but it's because he was saying the rifts are like, sound like you're rushing through them and it's killing the groove. And he changed a lot about it. There were parts that I had thought that it would be double base going throughout, and he made it this slip, knotty kind of sick thing that I just trust him. But on that one thing with that middle section, I feel really strongly about this part. I am not going to let this one go. I'm still, I'm really glad that it's in the song and I don't think he hates it anymore.

Speaker 2 (00:45:21):

No, of course not. No. But yeah, that's the gut feeling. Yeah, that's the one that we're referring to is that. Yeah. Hey, I mean, I feel strongly about this. We're keeping this, trust me,

Speaker 1 (00:45:31):

It's interesting though, man, because that line, where is that line?

Speaker 2 (00:45:34):

I guess it really just depends on who you're working with and what the part is. I mean, obviously that makes the difference. So it's an opening riff. It's something small. It's something easy to make a change and you can let it go, of course. But if it's an entire section of a song, maybe you have a little bit more of a stand your ground.

Speaker 1 (00:45:54):

Okay. I want to talk about disagreement that you had about a song that hasn't come out yet, but I felt like there were too many vocals in the song.

Speaker 2 (00:46:02):

So

Speaker 1 (00:46:02):

I felt like you came into Early To me, the verse is the way it is now. Where you come in now is where I always thought the vocals should start, but in the originals you came in a lot earlier and we had a lot of back and forth about that. And so then it ended up being the way I wanted it. But then in the middle section of the song, I felt like there were too many vocals and we did not cut vocals. We actually cut a guitar part.

Speaker 2 (00:46:30):

I remember that. That Ys as we did it. Yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:46:33):

There was a held out vocal over it, but really that was a guitar part really. And that's what we ended up cutting. So it's funny, I felt like there were too many vocals and what got cut was a guitar part, but it solved the math equation for me in the song. I actually want to use that part for something else. I thought it was a really cool part. It just made it too long.

Speaker 2 (00:46:55):

Yeah, I remember too. And I remember when we got into the discussion, it was like, look, let's, we went back and forth. We were like, I think it's this. I think it's focus. I'm like, I think it's guitar. I think it's the music. Maybe it's the drums maybe. And I remember we finally came to the determination of let's let Ys make the final call, which is putting it in the trust of, he is not the producer, but he's the mixer. But still he was able to make some magic happen and kind of hear it from that third perspective, which can really be key to just give it to somebody else and say, what do you think about this? What's needing to change? And I remember coming in and it was cut and I said, oh, there it is. That's it right there.

Speaker 1 (00:47:32):

Just we didn't trust Jens. I'm sure we would've come up with something cool, but the fact was that me and you were not able to come to something that me and you alone were satisfied with, and we had enough trust in Jens to let him figure it out, bring it to him. And that's kind what, when I say you got to trust the people you work with, it's like, that's exactly what I mean is you got to feel comfortable handing them the reins and

Speaker 2 (00:48:06):

And sometimes that's the best option because they're who you hired to do it, so why not put 'em to work?

Speaker 1 (00:48:13):

Yeah. So I think I hear a lot of producers saying in the URM community, I hear producers who are still working with local bands say things like, man, they never accept my ideas. They don't listen to what I say. These bands, they never take my input. And my thoughts are, well, there's two possibilities. One, your ideas aren't that good, or two, they don't trust you yet your ideas might be great, but they don't trust you yet. And for whatever reason, maybe you don't have a body of work. Because with Jens, it's like how many records has he done that we know are amazing? It's like he didn't have to do anything to gain my trust. I already went in there with it. But if someone doesn't have the track record, they're going to have to build that trust right then and there on the spot. They don't have this massive track record. But I feel like that's usually it. If you're in that situation where it's a local situation and you don't really have a discography and bands don't listen to you, I really think it's mainly going to be they just don't trust you. You haven't earned that trust and you've got to figure out how.

Speaker 2 (00:49:23):

Yeah, that's true. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, you just got to earn the trust.

Speaker 1 (00:49:26):

Hey everybody, if you're enjoying this podcast, then you should know that it's brought to you by URM Academy, URM Academy's mission is to create the next generation of audio professionals by giving them the inspiration and information to hone their craft and build a career doing what they love. You've probably heard me talk about Nail the Mix before, and if you're a member, you already know how amazing it is. The beginning of the month, nail the mix members, get the raw multi-tracks to a new song by artists like Lama, God Angels and Airwaves. Knock Loose eth masu shuga, bring me the Horizon. Gaira asking Alexandria Machine Head and Papa Roach among many, many others over 60 at this point. Then at the end of the month, the producer who mixed it comes on and does a live streaming walkthrough of exactly how they mix the song on the album and takes your questions live on air.

(00:50:18):

And these are guys like TLA Will Putney, Jens Borin, Dan Lancaster to I Mattson, Andrew Wade, and many, many more. You'll also get access to Mix Lab, which is our collection of dozens of bite-sized mixing tutorials that cover all the basics as well as Portfolio Builder, which is a library of pro quality multi-tracks cleared for use in your portfolio. So your career will never again be held back by the quality of your source material. And for those of you who really want to step up their game, we have another membership tier called URM Enhance, which includes everything I already told you about, and access to our massive library of fast tracks, which are deep, super detailed courses on intermediate and advanced topics like gain, staging, mastering, low end and so forth. It's over 500 hours of content. And man, let me tell you, this stuff is just insanely detailed and enhanced. Members also get access to one-on-ones, which are basically office hour sessions with us and Mix Rescue, which is where we open up one of your mixes and fix it up and talk you through exactly what we're doing at every step. So if any of that sounds interesting to you, if you're ready to level up your mixing skills in your audio career, head over to M Academy to find out more.

Speaker 3 (00:51:38):

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Speaker 1 (00:52:32):

Friday on A, B, C, and Stream on Hulu. What does it take to earn your trust?

Speaker 2 (00:52:37):

Depending on what we're talking about, but I think normally it's pretty much the same. I want to know your breadth of work. I want to hear something you've done. I think that's really what it is. I just want to hear what you've done. I want to see with anything mixing, writing, playing most of the bands that I form other than this band, generally it's Let me hear what you've done, let me hear what you got. Because I'm not just going to put my vocals on anything. I'm like, yeah, sure. Whatever, man. You got a riff, let put my vocals on it. Or where

Speaker 1 (00:53:12):

You're like, Joey, what have

Speaker 2 (00:53:14):

You done? Yeah, what have you done in your career? I don't know if this is the guy, actually. No, come on. But again, I think it's just, that's a specific scenario where everybody in that band has done something, so it's very easy to listen back to what they've done and you say, holy shit. But I mean, even then, the stuff Joey did for Insane, he didn't do for Slipknot or any of his other projects, most of his projects are more like that chop kind of playing. This was straight up extreme, the extreme just like Blast Beach scissor chops and crazy rolls and fills. And I think it really showcased what he was capable of. But coming in, I knew that he was good to go. Of course, I think he's got this. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:53:58):

You know what I thought was cool, man? When I first heard this insane stuff, remember in 2014 when you asked me to mix a song, I don't think that you knew that I, I hadn't told you where I was at in my life, but when you asked me to mix the song, that was when I was had literally the same month that I had made the decision to not mix more stuff and to start URM. It was literally that month was when you came to me. I had made the decision that I'm not taking on more bands. And then I remember you had Jens do it and I was like, cool, sick, awesome. But what I remember was, I've loved Slipknot since I heard them and I remember thinking, this is a death metal drummer. And some people can tell, but I think that as awesome as his drums are in Slipknot and they are amazing, like game changing, I always felt like people didn't understand just what level he could take it to hearing. Since aom, that's the first time I was like, finally you get to hear what Joey JSON can do

Speaker 2 (00:55:08):

Just unleash. Yeah, that first record, man, he fucking went wild. It was crazy. Some of the things that, some of the roles and fills and his dude, his double kicks were just amazing. I'll never forget the first time I heard that shit, but actually when Fred sent me the demos being demos, I remember saying, what the hell did I get myself into? But then after hearing the end result, I'm like, oh my God. And that's earning the trust. I had never been in a project with Fred. I had only heard the Dragon four stuff and he had done some other stuff. When I finally kind of heard it all come together, now I could see that guy doing no wrong, earned the trust. Everything he writes is phenomenal. But again, the first demo I think I heard, I just said, this is going to be tough because I think a lot of it was having Atila and I together and I wasn't really sure and we weren't really sure who was going to take what parts.

(00:56:01):

And I just kind of went all over the place with it and he sent it back and Atila would put some stuff. I'm like, man, we don't gel together. We don't sound as good. And that actually was a big part of Fred being able to produce and hear what he needed to hear to be able to make everything just come together. This cohesive Black Death metal project. People say that the Ashes EP was the first real black metal death metal thing we did, but in my eyes, just because I saw it from the beginning to the end, it was a challenge to bring that black metal. Death Metal has a specific style and I listen to Mayhem and it's like, shit. I know his breath of work and I listen to all these other guys' breath of work. I'm like, do I fit in this band? But obviously, yeah, clearly. Yeah, and it's become an amazing project as well, or band as well.

Speaker 1 (00:56:52):

That imposter syndrome shit is real weird because everybody I know in music has it. But I've kind of just decided with my own, I have it real bad too, is that these people around me, I did not put a gun to their head. They want to be here. So obviously there's a reason, and I'm not going to question it. Obviously I belong in this room here. So here's something I was curious about. So I know Fred from when we first toured with Dragon Force, how do you pronounce his last name?

Speaker 2 (00:57:30):

LeClaire,

Speaker 1 (00:57:31):

One of the most talented people in metal period, I would say.

Speaker 2 (00:57:36):

I would agree to that, yep.

Speaker 1 (00:57:38):

Lots of people don't know that about him. It's kind of like one of those, if you know kinds of things. He's in the background of a lot of every band he's in, he's kind of in the background, but he's also the Wizard of Oz, basically. Right. So that's how I think of him. And I was thinking based off of what you just said is like, yeah, so if I was in a project with him and he sent me a demo that was, let's just say rough, I would be cool with it. I wouldn't even question it just because I know what he's capable of. But I wanted to ask you something. So before we restarted doth, I hadn't played guitar at all since 2015 Zero. And so those first demos, man were me playing for the first time since I had been playing for a month. So my playing was, I was working really hard to get it back, but it was not back. And I could tell that I'd get there, but it was not there yet. I had to kind of relearn how to do it and I feel like fine now. But those first six months were, it was rough stuff. I never questioned if I'd be able to do it, but I know that when I was first sending demos, well, let's just say that I know that it was not great. So what is it that helps?

(00:59:09):

I'm betting on this horse because it's one of those things where it's like, yeah, Doha was good back in the day, but if we put out stuff like those first demos I sent you, we'd be made fun of.

Speaker 2 (00:59:21):

I think with the Fred thing, for instance, obviously the people that had committed to work with the project, and I know what he has done, I just hadn't really heard much metal from his camp, but he did send me some old demos of stuff he did. So I picked through 'em all. But the stuff that I got back initially, obviously I'm kidding when I say what did I get myself into? It's just more being comical and trying to make humor in light of a situation that was obviously I was doing the project. I mean, it was what I wanted to do. I mean, I think it was just a level of trust where the guy knows his stuff. And I think it was the same to be said about you. I had been through this before. This isn't the first time we had written demos, so I understand what it takes.

(01:00:05):

I understand where we had to go. And I remember hearing the concealer's demos and the stuff you sent sounded very similar to concealer stuff. So I just put my faith in it and said, I know this is going to be amazing. I mean, there was no question in my mind that this isn't going to be the best it could possibly be, especially because of the conversation we had about we got to make this good or what the hell are we doing it for? So again, it was just a level of trust and I think experience that we had had together that allowed me to kind of have faith.

Speaker 1 (01:00:38):

Look past that.

Speaker 2 (01:00:39):

Yeah, no, but I mean, again, listen to my demos. Some of 'em are great, some of them aren't that great. I mean it's the same when you're just working through stuff and as the songs progress and you build on top of things and you improve parts, it becomes almost clear as day. I mean, you can just see where we're going to go with it in the direction of the sound of the band. And again, knowing the people that we eventually got on board, I think that made just everything fall into place. And for me, not to be selfish, but when you said we're going to get the best vocal production, I don't give a shit what a guitar sound like. No, no, no, no. I'm just kidding. But seriously, it's because we've worked together for a long time and I was there for a lot of the early demos of all the other stuff and I was able to see it then. And because I remember back in the day here in concealer stuff in my head, I said, there's no way this is going to be good. And then we get to the concealers and it's time to do vocals. And I just remember, this is so good.

Speaker 1 (01:01:39):

Oh yeah, you weren't there when we tracked the music. So you had just

Speaker 2 (01:01:42):

Yeah, I came a month after because you guys had been there a month.

Speaker 1 (01:01:45):

Okay, so up till that point you had only heard our at home demos,

Speaker 2 (01:01:48):

The rough demos for me to do vocals. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So they were close, but do the guitar tone and the riffs and just the way things came together and the production of it all. And

Speaker 1 (01:01:59):

So then you get to Florida and it's like, whoa.

Speaker 2 (01:02:02):

Yeah, that's my eyes opened up big and my jaw dropped and I said, wow, this is legit. This is exactly what I've always wanted. I mean in that particular situation is a little different. I think that's why I wanted to become a vocalist. I just wanted to always hear myself on the best possible thing every time. I always wanted to be able to work with Ys, which is fucking weird that that happened. I always wanted to be at Fascination Street. I was always obsessed with soil work. I was obsessed with a lot of bands that he had mixed and I just said, man, I want to hear myself on something this big. And the concealers was the first time I actually ever had that opportunity. So I think it just made my appetite even stronger and I wanted more and more and more. And here we are

Speaker 1 (01:02:49):

More and more and more. The first time you hear your music with a real production is kind of is an interesting thing. It's awesome.

Speaker 2 (01:03:00):

Yeah, it's an awe moment. It's very, very, very cool.

Speaker 1 (01:03:04):

I suggested for everyone, try get your shit sounding awesome at least once. At least once in your life. Be

Speaker 2 (01:03:12):

At least once in your life. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:03:14):

The thing too, as far as trusting your team, you're right with demos, it's not going to always be good. And this is for people who are listening, who are trying to be producers, or whether you're just trying to be a band member as a producer, a band could come in with demos that really need a lot of work, and if you get negative on them or make them feel like you don't have faith in it getting better, they're going to get bummed out. And that is going to set things off on a bad foot. And I think that also with band members or musicians that you're working with, if they send you something and it clearly needs work or whatever, how you approach that makes a huge, huge difference. Just I know that stuff that I sent out, some of it was suspect, our orchestrator and another guitar player, Jesse Reti, his stuff is amazing.

(01:04:15):

If you hear the work he does, his composition work, it's stunningly good, but when we're working together, some of the stuff he sends is finished. It's like a finished product. It sounds like a movie and we get it, but some doesn't. And I know what his end products always sound like, so if he sends me something that's not quite there, I'm not going to be like, ah, he fucked up. What's wrong with him? It's just like maybe that part doesn't need orchestra, or maybe I didn't communicate something right or he hasn't quite figured out the math equation yet or to that part or whatever it is, but it's going to get there and you just know it.

Speaker 2 (01:04:57):

Yeah, I mean just to kind of embellish on that a bit, if there is something that does need to change, I think it really makes a huge difference, like you said in how you approach the situation. If you just come out guns blazing like this fucking sucks, this sucks, this sucks, this sucks, this sucks. I hate this, I hate this. It's not going to leave the end user feeling good about their product at all, whatever it is, whether it be vocals, guitar, whether it be whatever, in any business, in any relationship, I find that it always helps to kind of build up and then come back with, Hey, this could use some work instead of, it all sucks. I mean, of course, I guess there are situations where maybe something does suck, but in order to not completely destroy confidence, I think it's a huge thing to always give a positive of something that person is doing so that they do feel that they're doing something right versus everything they're doing is wrong. Because how that feels inside is absolutely terrible. It's like, man, I can't even do anything right. Fuck what's good and what's bad. I don't even know anymore. And I guess it really kind of stirs the pot in a bad way. So you got to let people know when they're doing something good,

Speaker 1 (01:06:12):

But the thing is what you're suggesting, it's not some psychological tactic or something. It's like how you get things better. So for instance, say that you send me a vocal demo and I only one thing on it, but that one thing is fucking great. Instead of worrying about the shit that I don't like, I'm going to try to be this thing that you did at three minutes, 14 seconds. I think that's fucking great. See if you can do more of that or use that as something to build off of.

Speaker 2 (01:06:43):

Yeah, and I think that's important because that, for instance, if you were to say that to me, I at least am able to now come back at it and say, well, okay, so this part is good. Okay, we both agree I like this, he likes this. Let me work on this so that I can make it all like this versus just spinning in circles, I don't even know what's good. Let me just try again. And then you try again. And I mean that does happen, but I think you can't always pick out the negative. You always have to somehow, even if the next three takes suck, still say they're not quite there, but I really still like what you did first, so let's try to recreate that throughout the rest of the song. Or this chorus is really good, or this verse or this riff or this drum part or even stage presence. You do this really well live, but you're not doing this as well live. Or maybe talk to the crowd more, but maybe be a little slower. I've definitely been in situations like that where it's good to let the person know that they're doing good no matter what it is. And it's not a psychological thing again, it's just so that person knows what to focus on.

Speaker 1 (01:07:50):

Yeah, exactly. That's how things get better and it's when producing a band too. One of the things that I have noticed that some of the really great producers do this is from talking to them or over so many podcasts and the mixes, and then also working as an artist with some or working alongside some. I have noticed that when a band comes in with their demos and say they have 20 songs, I've been in that situation where the head producer isn't very stoked on what the band comes in with, but they'll like one or two things. That's what they're going to focus on. They're going to focus on those one or two things and exploit that and let that be the starting point. They're not going to worry about the 18 things that they think suck, they don't matter. And also if you take that approach, then also say one time you don't like anything that's submitted, then it's way less big of a deal if you have a history of doing good stuff together, it's easier to handle if there's this one time where the person doesn't like any of it.

Speaker 2 (01:09:01):

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:09:01):

Alright. On a technical level, I'm wondering to get ready for a recording session, what do you do?

Speaker 2 (01:09:08):

I mean, typically for a recording, I want to make sure I know my parts. I want to make sure that I'm well rested. I want to make sure that I'm taking care of my voice. Typically, I like to kind of have vocal rest for at least a week if I can. Before I don't want to be screaming till the last minute and then go to the studio. I want that voice to heal. And I think that's really the big thing. I want to make sure that my voice is warm, so make sure that I'm hitting all of the ranges. Sometimes you do the warmups and whatnot. When you do warmups, you got to kind of go outside of your realm, go a little higher, go a little lower, because you never know what's going to be expected of you. Practice everything that you know well, because for instance, we got in to do no rest and I kind of did some pitch stuff, which was really cool.

(01:09:55):

He is like, I didn't even know you could do the pitch stuff. And so I was hitting these specific pitches and good thing that I had kind of warmed him up so that when I went in and I could showcase that I could do it, it wasn't like, oh, well that wasn't that good, so let's not do that. So I think getting ready for a vocal production, got to have my coffee, got to have my water, and that's basically it. Just make sure that I'm fully prepared mentally, vocally, physically, and lyrically I have all of my ducks in a row before I get there, which I think is common sense, but you never know.

Speaker 1 (01:10:25):

Trust me, it's uncommon sense.

Speaker 2 (01:10:26):

Yeah. Some may go in expecting to, I got this, I'll just wing it. I mean, sometimes I feel like that when we did these things that we will release sooner or later that I recently recorded, I kind went in because the ease of the songs or the ease of the songs, I went in with a different mentality than I normally do. And even then at the end I overlooked it. Remember you were like, did you do that part? And I'm like, I did not do that part. Had to turn back around and drive back to the studio. Yeah, but you still had done Yeah, the whole song. Yeah. But one part I was like, I completely forgot because I just sometimes even at this level, you forget you're in your head and it sounds good and you're feeling good and that's it. We were done. Alright, cool. I'll see you later man. Great. And we shook hands and I said, peace out and I'll catch you some other time, man. And then I get a text from you, did you forget that part? Like shit, I did literally turned it around.

Speaker 1 (01:11:22):

I always feel bad.

Speaker 2 (01:11:23):

No, come on. It needed to be done. I mean, come on.

Speaker 1 (01:11:25):

But that shit's going to live forever, so

Speaker 2 (01:11:28):

Yeah, of course. Yeah, so I think the preparation is key. The rest is important. The rest of the vocals is so important

Speaker 1 (01:11:36):

As well, not just sleep. Alright, yes, you're right. There was one little piece of a line missing, however, you still did full demos of those songs. So even what you say is kind of winging it, you still did demos and you did several versions of those demos and so you were still prepared. It's not like you actually winged it.

Speaker 2 (01:11:59):

Yeah, and I mean dude, that's so key. I came in with Dropbox links, I took the demos and I put 'em in the Dropbox so that when I got to the actual studio, I had already emailed them ahead of time. He could load them in. I don't want to sing along to some other version. I want my version so that we can A and B. So I remember this part because in my head I remember why I did that part, remember why I did this or why I did the specific screen. So having the demos on top and being able to kind of mute and record and mute and record and listen. And I think that is a huge, huge part of being successful and being efficient and getting it done in a matter of minutes versus days. So just having your own demos handy and in the producer's hands versus I got this, I'll just listen to what the band did and I'll figure it out as we go. I think it also gives the producer an idea of what you did and can kind of help you craft that part maybe a little bit better than you had originally saw.

Speaker 1 (01:13:02):

So do you think that that recording yourself has been part of getting better as a vocalist or as a professional

Speaker 2 (01:13:10):

Vocalist? Oh, 100%. Knowing the DA inside and out, knowing how to use a microphone. I remember the first, back in the local days of doing that stuff, I was so bent on having to have a handheld microphone because that's how I always did it. And it felt weird to me to stand back and I had to cover myself and maybe it was a confidence thing, but the more and more and more and more you record, it's made me better singing, it's made better. Screaming, death metal, black metal. Of course I can do death core, but I don't want to do it, but I'd maybe like to splash a little in somewhere. So I think any good vocalist should be good at imitating other people, even if it's doing imitations of voices. I always found that that really helped me out a lot. Anything, even like a famous actor or a cartoon character trying to recreate that voice. You can hear it, you can see it and you know what you sound like. It also helps you learn how to do that screaming wise too.

Speaker 1 (01:14:12):

It's a good exercise.

Speaker 2 (01:14:14):

Yeah, it is of course, because you're doing imitation and you know what you sound like. And I think recording myself and learning how to make myself sound good and it builds more confidence and being able to put an EQ on my vocals or I dunno, put a high pass filter or cut the SS out or deser or throw in some chorus and delay and some reverb or something and I'm comfortable with it and it sounds good. Eventually you start to hate what you used to do. And then you see, man, I sounded terrible. What was I doing? I can't believe I used to send people mixes like this. And obviously the setup, the microphone makes a huge difference too. Using a shitty mic is only going to make you sound as good as the microphone is. And I think this insane, I use this mic.

Speaker 1 (01:15:07):

Tell us what that is for people who are just listening.

Speaker 2 (01:15:09):

This is a Jay-Z mic. This is the V 67 vintage and I absolutely love this mic. I've used it in so many situations now we've even done some shootouts and it always wins over the SM seven. And I personally am trying to get away from the SM seven great mic. It's a great fallback, but it'll make you sound like everybody else. If it's something that you've never really done and you're new in the studio, probably go with an SM seven. It's going to really make you sound good. But once you kind of grow past the SM seven days, you'll see the capabilities of your voice. And having that mic at your disposal also makes a huge difference because when I got in to do those two things we just did recently, I knew exactly what to do. I knew how far to stand from the mic, I knew the mouth shape that I needed because SM seven as you just stick your lips on it as far as you can, and that's basically what everybody does with M seven. Yeah, exactly. You're making out with the mic versus this condenser, you got to get back. It hears everything. You know what I've had for breakfast basically. Wouldn't you hear what I've recorded?

Speaker 1 (01:16:12):

What's interesting about what you're saying is I have found that the recording engineer side of me is very hesitant to use condensers with screamers because of the amount of detail in there. So the SM seven, it's like what it does that's so good is it hides a lot of the Yeah,

Speaker 2 (01:16:34):

I was going to say it hides. Yeah,

Speaker 1 (01:16:34):

It hides the stuff you don't want to hear and there's something about the curve or whatever that there's something about it that it brings forward what you want to hear in a screamer most of the time. Most of the time, obviously not always, but lots of times in my experience, and again also not every time, but using a super high quality condenser on a screamer, you end up with something that's too pristine or it's just not right, but you sound fantastic with one. I wonder if it is because your voice is so detailed and you know how to use the mic.

Speaker 2 (01:17:16):

I was going to say that's probably more what it actually is because I have an SM seven. I mean I bought one that was the first real mic I felt I was using and I send stuff out and I remember saying, God, I sound so good and it's so detailed and I hear everything that I want to hear. But I think what I finally started to understand is it kind of just makes you sound like this with everything you do and I don't really like that. And then you got to EQ everything to death to bring up the mids or bring up the trouble. And the only way you're ever going to get good with a condenser is to actually use one. And it takes a skill. It's not like anyone can just pick one up because it's not going to make you sound good unless you know how to sound good with one.

(01:17:58):

You have to use a specific voice, you have to be louder, you have to be angrier, you have to put more passion into your scream. I'm not saying that using SM seven, you're not doing that, or people that use one aren't doing that. It's just in order to use something like this, it's so crystal clear. You have to have more grit in your voice than if you're using a seven because you don't really have to have that grit. You can kind of put a distress on it, stick your mouth into it, and everybody sounds like what they want to sound like, but I want to sound like I'm huge. I don't want to sound like I'm in a hallway or in a barrel or something stuck in this shell.

Speaker 1 (01:18:38):

You've got a paper bag over your

Speaker 2 (01:18:40):

Head and again, it's a great mic. That's how I learned. I used it for every recording forever and ever and ever and ever. All the DOT stuff, all of the early insane stuff. I remember the payment that I got from Eric in order to do the first insane was I bought him an SM seven. So he recorded all this insane stuff for the first record. I bought him an SM seven and that was the deal we made. And so he did the recording for me and I've just used it everywhere. And I think once I finally bought my own condenser, I bought a audio Technica re 20 or something. Maybe it's not an re 20, but a UD 20, I don't remember R 20, something like that. That's what really started to break me out of the seven. And I started using both and I say, I don't know, I just don't sound as good anymore. And then I just kept using it and using it and then these mics were graciously blessed in my presence. And

Speaker 1 (01:19:32):

Shout out to Jay-Z microphones,

Speaker 2 (01:19:34):

Shout out to Jay-Z Mikes man. I recorded the entire brand Newan M record with this right here, this exact microphone, this one in my hands. I was able to do it and we sent it over to lasa Lasa, maybe that's how you say it.

Speaker 1 (01:19:48):

I've had him on the podcast twice and I still don't know how to say his name.

Speaker 2 (01:19:52):

I would say Laer, but that's French, but I know he's German.

(01:19:55):

No, I know it's Lasa lasa. But yeah, so we did the shootout and I tried all these mics and I sent him, because I have the black version of this, I really cannot remember the model, but I tried that. It's like the 11, the V 11, maybe V 13, I dunno, I have some photos of it somewhere. But we used a ton of different mics for the shootout and he eventually comes back. He's like, honestly, with my setup, I can do a lot more with this microphone than I can the seven with you. But he's like, it's good to have the seven because it's a great fallback. Again, everybody uses the industry standard. I mean, come on, it's been in the business forever. I mean Michael Jackson used that.

Speaker 1 (01:20:34):

You know that you're going to be able to get good results with it. Most of the time, I call it to 85% rule. You should have that gear that you'll probably use 85% of the time as a producer. You're pretty guaranteed with an SM seven that it'll get you through most situations in an acceptable fashion.

Speaker 2 (01:20:56):

Well, just to put this into perspective, when I did the concealers, I wasn't ready as a vocalist to use a condenser because OV tried 10 different mics on me, and we did try condensers and it did not work. When I got to Wade, I said, I don't want to use an SM seven. He said, yeah, okay. What do you want to try? And I said, let's try the best condenser you have. And we tried it and he dialed in his mix and everything and his vocal chain and yeah,

Speaker 1 (01:21:24):

I wasn't ready 87, I think it was at

Speaker 2 (01:21:26):

U 87. Yeah, I think so. I just wasn't ready. I was still immature as a vocalist. And I find that as you kind of grow and you blossom, you kind of learn what you want to sound like, and sometimes you realize that fat isn't it, and you need to find the best tool for the job. You don't want to use a flathead on a Phillips screw. I mean, you can, but you're going to strip the shit out of the screw.

Speaker 1 (01:21:51):

One of the things too that I've noticed about super high end gear is it's going to capture what you're putting in there way, way more accurately than you've ever heard before. And so if what you're putting in is not that great, you're going to get a super pristine version of something that's not that great. You're going to hear that shit in all its glory. Yeah. It's not going to make you better. It's going to capture what you're giving it better than anything else. And so that's exactly why the SM seven is so good is because it does hide a lot of stuff. And so you can take look again, it is a great mic and great vocalists do sound great with it.

Speaker 2 (01:22:36):

Yeah, no dude, I have no qualms about it whatsoever. And I'm not putting anyone down as using it or saying they're not good or they're not at a specific level. It's just me personally.

Speaker 1 (01:22:45):

I've

Speaker 2 (01:22:46):

Learned that I want to be clearer and I want to sound dirtier here and I don't want to sound dirtier here.

Speaker 1 (01:22:52):

And I think that your technical skills as a vocalist matches have it's compatible with something that's that highly detailed.

Speaker 2 (01:23:02):

Yeah, dude, I remember when they sent me this and he asked me which ones that I wanted and I said, I want the condenser. And he goes, that's not used for screaming, but I want to use it for screaming. And then, so that's all I've done. And it was amazing to be able to record all of this insane shit with it. Every fucking thing was done with this microphone so crazy. All the singing and there is singing and all the death metal and all the black metal and all the screams and all the layers were all just voila. But again, a lot of that more had to come from here versus plugins, compression stressors. And here most of it had to actually come from here because like you said, this is going to capture everything.

Speaker 1 (01:23:46):

So for people who aren't watching and are just listening, he's pointing at his own throat.

Speaker 2 (01:23:51):

Yeah, I am pointing at my throat. Correct. Yes, exactly. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:23:56):

Okay. So as a guitar player recording myself, there's been two things that I feel like have been what have helped me get a lot better outside of just practicing. One has been playing with people that are better than me at guitar, not looking like a chump will force you to get better. And some of the people that we've played with are so fucking good at guitar that you got to work hard to not look like just a complete loser next to them. But that, and then also recording myself because that's when I really started to hear myself. I feel like you can't really hear yourself properly when you're playing. I don't know if it's the same when you're singing, I imagine it is, but because at least when you're playing, it's like you're focused on the physical motion. If you're not wearing headphones, you're hearing whatever's going on in the room. If it's not very loud, you're hearing pick attack. And so the pick attack could trick you into thinking that you're playing more percussively than you actually are. You are trying to get the notes. So you might be focused on what you sound like, but you're not a hundred percent focused on what you sound like. Your attention is divided by multiple things. And it's not until you start recording yourself and hear yourself back that you really know what you sound like and then you can really start to develop it from there. When you're just playing, you can really get high off of your own shit.

Speaker 2 (01:25:33):

Yeah, of course. It's the same. I mean, it's the same. I mean, I guess I hear myself more, and so I don't know, after a while I start to say, wow, I am sounding really bad, or I hear my voice being stressed. And I think recording has allowed me to understand where I'm at and where I'm going and how much I need to improve. So recording myself was huge. Sometimes I'll take YouTube videos to my favorite songs and just for my own personal benefit, I'll put them through one of those AI vocal removers and I'll just record songs to whatever. I did one of the Red Hot Sweet Pepper songs that was off the Cone Head soundtrack. I can't think of the damn name of the song, but I recorded it as if I was the vocalist. And if you know anything, you get a pretty eye-opening experience of, damn, I need to work on this a bit. I got to work on this, my cadence or my pronunciation. And I think that's what has helped throughout all these years. And obviously having different influences vocally also helps. I think that's one thing Fred really liked about me was that I'm more of this kind of groovy kind of guy. Whenever I scream, it's more like hip hop. And I'm like, well, that's what I listen to. So I think that really helps too. But yes, recording yourself, it does wonders. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:26:46):

Yeah. I remember this one time, man, it was when I was first at Audio Hammer, I recorded this rich dude, one of those dudes who gets, makes $600,000 a year at his job and had basically wanted recording Studio Fantasy Camp.

Speaker 2 (01:27:04):

Yeah, that's fair.

Speaker 1 (01:27:06):

It's fine. And thank you, because he paid full price. It helped out a lot in those days. But I remember, and he hired some top level dudes to play on his, he paid for a lot of different things. He is a really cool guy, but he was the lead guitar player and he had it in his head that his solos were like Zach Wilde level or something. And so when we recorded, it was not Zach Wilde level, not even close to Zach wild level. And it was so far off that I had to place some of it, and there was nothing I could do short of going note by note to even get close to it was just not going to happen. And the dudes started crying. It was one of the most uncomfortable experiences I've had in the studio, but he was so crushed. He was positive that he was ready and he was positive that it was going to be like if Zach and Dime had this musical love child, this was him. And I asked him what you did to prepare? And he was like, I played the songs a lot. Did you record any demos? Nah, not really. Yes, you don't really know. It's eyeopening.

Speaker 2 (01:28:38):

Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's intoxicating, but it's also eyeopening. It's sobering, I think was the word we're looking for here, because you kind of come off of that high and you're like, wow, I kind of need to work on this before I get in there. And I mean, you don't need a full technical skill to be able to reward yourself these days.

Speaker 1 (01:28:54):

No.

Speaker 2 (01:28:54):

Just to get some basic stuff in line so that you can sound good.

Speaker 1 (01:28:59):

I kind of feel like the definition of a professional musician has changed. When we were in our earlier years, recording was not part of the definition. Playing or singing was the definition. Nowadays, I kind of think that having a basic ability to record, not one of these producers were talking about, but just the basic ability to record yourself decently enough is part of the job description.

Speaker 2 (01:29:31):

I mean, it really is. I think everyone has an expectation of like, Hey, just record this for me and send this over, and no one questions. No one says, can you do that? Because it's just expected that you can do that. If you want to be considered a professional, you better be able to at least record yourself. I think even in the most minuscule basic, I've got a crap computer with Cubase or whatever it is, or Reaper or whatever. That's what everyone, all my friends are using in the local scene these days. It works. So you use Studio One, right? I do. Yeah. I use it. I mean, I'm pretty stuck on it just because I like the workflow. I don't have a Mac. I guess I could get Pro Tools. I do use Pro Tools at work, but it's expensive. And now the licensing and stuff is not the same that it used to be because even the work stuff is, even with the school license, it's still expensive, man. It is expensive.

Speaker 1 (01:30:32):

Also, the thing is, man, back in the day, there weren't that many good daws, but so I've never actually used Studio One, but everyone I know who uses it, Keith Marrow uses it. I know a few people who use it. Everyone I know who uses it really loves it. And it's like, if that's what you're comfortable with, that's what you can do work in. It's not like a microphone where you need to find the right microphone for your voice. It's just a do. So whatever one works.

Speaker 2 (01:31:00):

I agree. And I think it's also, what are you doing? I mean, I'm not recording a full band. I'm just fucking putting vocals through this shit. I mean, I'm going to drop an instrumental wave in there, so I need maybe one track for that, and then I'll layer some vocals. So the most layering I've done is maybe 10 tracks or 12 tracks, because I'm overlapping and I may be doubling, and I may be doing all kinds of stuff, but hey, again, all this insane stuff I was able to do in Studio One using this mic, using my IO station. I believe it's IO Station 24, which is a great inbox. And I mean, you don't really need a whole crazy setup. I mean, I think nowadays the processing power and the audio quality of pretty much every do these days, this is about the same. You're just going to be bouncing waves at the end of the day. You're just going to be bouncing waves.

Speaker 1 (01:31:53):

The gear these days is pretty damn good.

Speaker 2 (01:31:56):

Yeah, exactly. And these guys are heavy hitters. They're trying to compete with the big wigs. They're trying to go blow to blow with Pro tools, and there's a reason why people buy it. There's a reason why they put all this time into it. They paid all these programmers to make this. I mean, back in the day, it was terrible. I mean, come on. Let's be honest. I think I was on a version of Nendo from 2002 until more recently. So I was only starting to run into problems with floating in plugins, and I was trying to actually load up that Howard Benson vocal plugin, and it actually wouldn't work with the old version of Nendo. So I said, all right, it's time to move to something else. And I made the switch and haven't looked back. Two

Speaker 1 (01:32:32):

More things I want to talk about real quick, starting to run out of time, but number one, because I'm curious about this. Since I've gotten to know Howard Benson now, I have watched him produce vocals. And look, I'm not getting paid by Joey to talk about this. He doesn't even know I'm talking to you right now. And I don't have any professional relationship with JST, even though Joey is a partner in URM. I just need to say that before I talk about this plugin, because I have no business interest in talking about this plugin. So Howard Benson is someone that I always heard about, but I didn't realize how much shit he's done until we did that course with him and in Flames last year. And so I watched him produce vocals in person and was blown the fuck away by this person's genius and ability to produce vocals. And then he was telling me about the plugin, and he was telling me that that plugin is not like a cash grab or something. He doesn't need the money. He wanted something that condenses his workflow. And so he actually uses his plugin. He designed it to make his own life easier because it takes a bunch of different things that he would use every single time. And no matter where he's at, what studio he's at, there, it is his own sound. So it's like it's designed by him for him, which is cool.

Speaker 2 (01:34:12):

Yeah, I'm a huge fan of it because it simplified my workflow, it simplified my vocal chain. I used to sit there and obviously it took me forever to craft this 25 plugin vocal chain. I mean, not that much, but I think I had it had the eq, had the compressor, had the distressor, and then depending if I wanted to add effects to it, and then sometimes you add a second EQ on top. I mean, I was almost to 10 stacks, whereas I load up Howard Benson and I hit one button, and you're going to laugh when I tell you the one that I use, which is country male vocals.

(01:34:48):

That's awesome. That's the one that sounds the best to me. And I've introduced a lot of people. Mark Hunter, he reached out and he's like, what are you using? And I said, I'm using this. I had him do some vocals for the vented stuff, and I'm like, what are you using? And he is like, oh, remember I'm using the fucking Howard Benson. I'm like, oh, shit. That's right. And a ton of people ask me, I just say, dude, just get this. If you're doing vocals, it makes sense. It's so cheap. Just use it. It just makes things a lot easier. It takes away a lot of the thought process. And I think that's why people use specific daws because that's what they're used to, or it's ease of use or it's workflow because it just takes away that extra little bit of having to overthink everything and you could just jump right in and hit record. And I think that's what I like about it the most. I don't really have to do much these days.

Speaker 1 (01:35:35):

That's what some of this new breed of Amp Sims are amazing. My two favorites are the stuff that Neural DSP makes. And then actually, believe it or not, the stuff that Borin digital makes, the Borin amp Sims are amazing. The neural stuff and the Borin stuff, that's my favorite. And the thing about it, so me taking this long break, it's like one of those science fiction movies, man, where the end of the kid falls asleep and wakes up and it's like 30 years later and he has a different family. Come

Speaker 2 (01:36:09):

On, we're in the future, dude. This is the future. We're in it.

Speaker 1 (01:36:12):

So we're not having done anything for that long. And then suddenly getting these new amp stems, it's just like, holy shit, this sounds incredible. And I don't have to sit there and tweak it. I can just get right to work.

Speaker 2 (01:36:27):

And that's what my point is with all of it is I think simplifying everything and being comfortable with your setup and being comfortable in your scenario, it's only going to help you gain confidence because you're not sitting there thinking, ah, I'm not a computer guy. I'm not a this guy. I'm not a that guy. You can get in, get right to work, start working on your craft, start perfecting whatever it is that you do. So when it comes time to do it for real, it's second nature. And you can almost even help them a bit. When I do vocals, for instance, and I see what they're doing on the monitor, I know how he's going to work because I work the same way because it's all done the same. Maybe somebody has some crazy obscure new method, but it's the same shit. You're recording a line, dropping it down, going to do a double, and I see when things are running, I see when you're cutting, I see when you're splicing, I see when you're punching, because I do it all here. So it makes the producers an engineer or whoever you're working with life that much easier. So you're more of a pleasure to work with and people want you back. The chemistry is even better because it's like, oh, this guy knows his shit. Okay, cool. But not egotistically like, oh, I know what I'm talking about. More like, oh, I know where we're at now. Okay, cool. I understand what I need to do. Makes

Speaker 1 (01:37:42):

It easier to work with you, I'm sure. So last question, so you're obviously competent with recording yourself, obviously your stuff. What's the difference between you just doing it yourself or going to someone like Andrew? The reason I'm asking is because you know how people always ask you is what does a producer even do? There's a lot of people who don't understand the value of a producer. Exactly. Because these tools are so good that, and you can just, if you spend a little bit of time learning them, you can get some really good results really, really, really fast. But why go to someone like a real producer?

Speaker 2 (01:38:30):

I think it kind of circles back to what we spoke about earlier, but when you are here with yourself, it literally is exactly that. It's me, myself and I. I'm in my own head. My capabilities are only as far as I can see, and I don't have somebody else to help me take my project to the next level or take my vocals to the next level. I think as a vocalist, after doing it so long, and I think it's with any instrument, everybody has their go-to core, their go-to riff, their go-to vocal pattern note, the do note.

Speaker 1 (01:39:03):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (01:39:04):

Yeah, exactly. Everybody has their go-to. Like Rafel has that, a minor that he always plays just as a reference. So I think it helps you break out of that and somebody allows you to see it for what it could be, not for what it is. And it's so important to have a producer even for anything. They're going to help you with lyrics. They're going to help you change your lyrics because something may not fit or something may not make sense, or the cadence or the pattern is not correct for what they're hearing. And if you're working with somebody who knows what they're talking about and you've earned their trust, then they're going to be able to accentuate the song and not make it monotonous and droll, where I came into no rest, no end, and my verses didn't really have a lot of variation from the beginning to the end, and you kind of get lost in the song.

(01:40:01):

But what Andrew did was say, why don't we do this? Instead of which, it made a lot more sense to me to be like, instead of next part, my head sounds great, feels heavy, this is what I want. Get to him, start to listen to it a little bit. I see the separation in the verse, it makes it easily digestible. You hear all the other instruments, I mean, a producer is so essential. I think it's almost damn near impossible to not at least have one even just a little bit, even just to help just a little bit, because that's what they're there to do to make your song platinum versus gold, and not like any of these songs are going to go there in a metal scene, but I know what you mean.

Speaker 1 (01:40:41):

And yeah, it's like, yes, you can do stuff on your own. That's very good, and you should get as good as you can on your own. And there's going to be plenty of times where that will be enough, but the better you are on your own, the better results you can get when you do work with someone like Andrew because Yeah, because exactly what you just said. You do know what's going on, so you guys are working together. It's

Speaker 2 (01:41:07):

Not him against you. Yeah. I mean you're working together. Exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:41:10):

Yeah, totally. Well, I think this is a good place to end it, but it's fucking awesome that we even have something to talk about. I mean, we could have done this anyways. We could just talked about the past, and that would've been cool too, because you've done tons of cool shit since doth went on hiatus, but it's fucking awesome to be able to have this conversation and actually be about current stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:41:36):

Yeah, technical things as well, and tools that we use and the process of it all. I think it's very, very cool to actually be able to kind of say that stuff. So maybe when people hear this, I could just direct 'em to this. When they ask me why should they go to a producer or I don't understand what a producer does. Well,

Speaker 1 (01:41:53):

We talked about it. Yeah, yeah, we talked

Speaker 2 (01:41:55):

About it. Exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:41:57):

Yeah. If you listen to this whole conversation, if you got this far and you still don't think that there's value in a producer, then I dunno,

Speaker 2 (01:42:05):

What can you do? Yeah, I can only help and tell you so much, and then you have to be the one to accept it.

Speaker 1 (01:42:14):

I'll leave it with this. I think that there's this misconception out there that a producer is there to fix bad stuff, and that's part of it. Yes, some people go in and are not good or are not prepared, and then the producer does have to fix stuff. But I remember when our previous drummer, Kevin Talley, he's a clever dude, and he gave me the idea that I then carried on forever basically of using kick pads instead of a kick drum when recording drums. Because that way you don't get the bass drum and all the room mics. It's easier to edit. What if you feel like changing the kick pattern, you're in the studio and you want to change the kick pattern. You can either cut up these drums and cut up all the symbols or just programming new kicks if you don't have a kick drum in everything.

(01:43:07):

It's just so, makes it easier to mix. There's so many reasons, and Kevin is one of the best drummers in metal history, and so a lot of people, I remember when I would first start talking about the kick pads on Creative Live or in the podcast, they'd think that it's something you use if a drummer sucks, and it's like, no, no, no, no, no. That's not it. You're using it because it makes the recording process better and you use it with great drummers too. It's even better with a great drummer. Yeah, these tools like a producer and all this modern technology, yeah, it can be used to fix shit, but it really, really, if you take something excellent and use modern tools on something excellent, the sky's the limit.

Speaker 2 (01:43:58):

Yeah, I agree.

Speaker 1 (01:43:59):

Well, Sean, thank you very much for taking the time to hang out.

Speaker 2 (01:44:02):

Of course, man. Always, dude. I look forward to what we have coming up, man. We got a lot of good stuff. We show these people, so

Speaker 1 (01:44:07):

Yeah, an interesting few years coming up.

Speaker 2 (01:44:10):

Yeah, it will be. I look forward to it. Awesome.

Speaker 1 (01:44:13):

Alright, then another URM podcast episode in the bag. Please remember to share our episodes with your friends as well as post them to your Facebook and Instagram or any social media you use. Please tag me at al Levi URM audio at M Academy, and of course tag our guests as well. I mean, they really do appreciate it. In addition, do you have any questions for me about anything? Email them to [email protected]. That's EYAL at urm. Do acam y and use the subject line, answer me a. All right, then. Till next time, happy mixing.

Speaker 3 (01:44:53):

You've been listening to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast. To ask us questions, make suggestions and interact, visit URM Do Academy and press the podcast link today.