SCOTT ATKINS: Avoiding Burnout, The Psychology of Bands, Capturing a Band’s Identity

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

Hello everybody. Welcome to the URM Podcast. My guest today is Scott Atkins, who is a producer best known for his work with bands such as Cradle of Filth and Silos among many others. We had a great conversation about building up your career and knowing when to spot opportunities, how to get really, really sick at audio, and the most important thing dealing with the psychology of band members. And that's an interesting one because many of the things that we think only exist at the lower levels and stop happening once bands go pro. Well, not only do they exist, but in lots of cases they get worse. And knowing how to deal with those problems or issues or whatever you want to call them, idiosyncrasies, knowing how to deal with that, having a strategy and a plan for how to make sure things stay cool, well, that can be the difference between a career being a short-lived little blip or being lifelong. And that's what we get into. I introduce you, Scott Atkins. Scott Atkins, welcome to the URM Podcast. Thank you very much. Glad to have you here. I'm actually, I'm a fan of your work and I want to ask you something that I used to ask people at the beginning of podcast episodes, but I haven't thought about it much lately, and in a conversation that you and I had before this, it got me thinking about it. And so I'm wondering what made you want to start producing metal, specifically Metal?

Speaker 2 (00:01:40):

Yeah, I guess I never really started out to want to do it. It kind of just happened. I played in a hardcore metal band. We formed in about 95 and almost very, very, very quickly, maybe within the first year or two, we got a deal and immediately we were given money and it was like, go and record your songs. We went into the studio every six months to a year doing two or three tracks, and every time it was not really quite hitting the mark for me. So I was frustrated as a band member. I wasn't hearing what I wanted to hear at the speakers, and I always felt like I could lean over the guy and No, no, I needs a little bit more of this. And yeah, I guess it was just frustration really. And I'd never planned to do it. In fact, I was following a career in architecture at the time, and it wasn't until we were making our third album with Andy sne and I'd mentioned that I'd been frustrated and I always felt like I'd wanted to sort of be more involved.

(00:02:50):

And he just said, why don't you get a rig together or a small rig that you can move around because you haven't got any premises? And I was like, is that possible? I didn't even realize that was a thing because computer recording had just started coming in and he sent me some links and stuff over the internet. It's like, you could get one of these, you could get this and flight case it. And I thought maybe, and I thought, well, if in a year I want to do this, maybe I'll do it then. And a year came by and the band had been on tour and stuff and I decided to buy the gear, and that was it really

Speaker 1 (00:03:33):

In the late nineties, I know that he used to travel around and mobile record people. I believe he did want a testament record that way recording in their rehearsal space. I am almost positive that he did that. I forget which one, but in the late nineties could be wrong.

Speaker 2 (00:03:55):

Yeah, probably the gathering.

Speaker 1 (00:03:57):

Yeah, maybe the gathering. I'm 99.9% positive that he did that in the late nineties, and that's very, very forward thinking to be able to mobile record. But one thing that I think is really cool, which I've noticed is people that are that good Andy aren't going to feel threatened by someone getting in the game. So they will say, why don't you just try it? As opposed to, I've been around people and I've heard of people who the band member says that they're thinking about doing it or expressing something where the logical conclusion is you should do it, and they'll try to discourage them. And I think it's interesting that when you're around people that are truly great, Andy, there's no reason for them to ever feel threatened by it. And so they usually tend to be very helpful.

Speaker 2 (00:04:58):

And he went way beyond that. I mean, I got my rig together and he said, why didn't you bring it up to the studio and we'll mic up the kit and I'll show you how to do some basic stuff. And the first band I'd recorded, I took the session and he showed me how to arrange it and put samples in and things. He didn't need to do any of that. No, there was nothing in it for him, but I think he probably saw me as somebody who was in a similar role as he was in his band. So we had a very sort of similar organizational role within our bands. We were struggling against the tide a bit. I felt like we'd been in similar shoes really. So when wanted his helped me, he knew it was because I was genuinely interested in doing it for the right reasons to help bands rather than it being for my own ends really.

Speaker 1 (00:05:54):

What do you think is a more realistic career architecture, the way that you were pursuing it or what you ended up doing? If you had a kid that was choosing one or the other, which one would you say was the safer bet if you were advising your kid?

Speaker 2 (00:06:13):

Oh, definitely the architecture definitely, I think mean trying to make it as a producer or even, I mean, if you could say it was making a living out of it and not having to work elsewhere in my mind would be making it in music really. And I think there's no guarantee of getting paid is there. Obviously the dream would be to get bigger bands and do great Metallica or slayer of that ilk, but for me it was if I can carry on month by month making it work than I've won, really, because at the time I was making the transition from architecture, the band I been in, we were a real underdog band. We never made any money or became largely successful, but we just wanted to do it. We didn't set out to be a big band. So it was really the same mindset of, well, we've worked really hard on this, it got so far along, I'm going to try this now and try and do a studio, and if I can keep doing it and managing to eat and pay the bills, then

Speaker 1 (00:07:33):

Great. I do think that the idea of getting to the Metallica level is, I mean, it's great to have huge goals,

(00:07:46):

But it's also, this is going to sound contradictory because I definitely believe in thinking big, but it's really, really unhealthy. I think in terms of actually accomplishing things to set your sights on bands like Metallica, only for the numbers. There's one Metallica, so there's literally one person every few years who's going to be able to work on them out of everybody who works on bands. And I mean, it's cool to dream about that, but it's not very founded in reality of actually having a production career. There's a whole industry out there of people who do not so well all the way to very well who don't work with. And I think that you're absolutely right that because there is no security whatsoever in it that actually carving an existence like a good existence, a respectable existence out of it is winning a hundred percent super rare actually.

Speaker 2 (00:09:01):

Yeah, I agree. And as I got a lot older and the years started to go past in doing the studio, it's weird. There's a safety net of a certain age where you think, well, this came to an end. If it only lasted five years, then I could go and study something else or go back to architecture and I'm 50 now, and I think, oh, the roads run out for a potential career change. If it all went tits tomorrow, you're kind of in a vulnerable position. I think, well, what else would I do? And I think really the plan B gets left behind. When I started the studio, I never expected to be doing it this many years later on. I started it in 2005, and it was only ever a short term thing. Maybe I'll be doing it in a year or two years. It's two less years I'll be in an office, which is a win, but that's nearly 18 years ago. So

Speaker 1 (00:10:03):

Yeah, the thing though, the older you do get, the harder it is to change gears. And I do think that the longer you keep a plan B, the more damaging it is because

Speaker 2 (00:10:20):

Can be, yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:10:21):

It's damaging because exactly what you just said about, okay, so you get to 50, you've been doing this, what if it all goes to shit? Then what? Career change? That's crazy. And so you got to make the plan A so strong that it's not going to go to shit. Basically, it has to be about survival, in my opinion. I feel like humans are not motivated by good things. They're motivated by bad things, they're motivated by fear or motivated by the worst possible outcome. And I think just keeping in mind that it's a house of cards, I think keeping that firmly in the center of someone's mind should be really, really good fuel for doing what needs to be done. It has been for

Speaker 2 (00:11:19):

Me. Yeah, yeah, for sure. I think there is a flip side to it as well. I mean, I've always worked as hard as possible and conscientiously as well. I always want to do right by the bands. I understand how desperate they are to make their next record the one that makes a difference to their career, and there has to be some balance. My advice to anyone who's listening to this who wants to make it or at least make a go of doing production is you have to manage your workload and the way you work in a way which enables you to carry on doing it in the long term. About seven years ago, I had a bit of a wobble where I started getting chest pain to dizzy spells, and I went to the doctors and he said, what'd you do for a living? I said, I run a music studio and stuff. And he was like, right, okay, what sort of hours you're doing? And I was like, all of them.

(00:12:26):

And he was like, do you love doing it? And I said, yeah. He said, do you want to keep doing it? And I said, yeah, a hundred percent. And he said, you need to just work more sensibly with a better work-life balance, which is not something I was doing. I'd start at 10 in the morning and three or four in the morning and I'd still be nearly 25 hours later. And it's amazing the drive that you'll find when you really invested in a product and you want it to be amazing, and you are up against the time and the band is sort of going to put everything into it. But you've got to remember a band is only making one album every sort of couple of years, but you are making an album one after another. So their effort level is they're fresh, aren't they? But you are not going to be as fresh as them. So you are trying to accommodate and match their energy level and make the project as good as possible, but ultimately you're going to get burnout, which is what I had,

Speaker 1 (00:13:32):

Not just what you're saying, but also there's nobody in the band who's going to be working on it every single day like you. Right. So collectively, exactly. Collectively, they might have a crazy amount of energy, but the drummer is going to do their parts and then they're done. You need to keep going. So pacing yourself just within the scope of one project, forget all the other ones just to get through. The one project I think matters a lot that you pace yourself properly

Speaker 2 (00:14:07):

For sure. And everything, your whole life can go out the window because you want to get the, especially if you're mixing, it's like you might have an engagement or something with your girlfriend or a family thing or you, you're going to go out with all your mates. It's easy to suck it all off when your mix isn't quite getting there and the mastering is booked or you are doing the mastering or the deadlines tomorrow or the next day or maybe next week and you start plowing the hours in, it can really get the better of you. So key to longevity for me really and sort of moving forwards is try and allow yourself that sort of time where you get to recharge, try to just be a bit more sensible about it.

Speaker 1 (00:14:52):

So what does that mean on a day-to-day level? What does being more sensible mean? What does it actually look like?

Speaker 2 (00:15:00):

I try and do sort of a 10 hour day rather than sort of 24, try and take time at weekends as much as possible, especially if you've got kids or a girlfriend. And I'd say music production is a classic sort of accommodating role where you are always going to try and meet the demands of the band and the client. They're like biking dogs. They're always going to want as much as you can give them, especially if you're on a budget, if you're on a fixed budget for an album, if they can get extra weeks out of you in time during the same period, they're winning, aren't they?

Speaker 1 (00:15:40):

And it's not malicious, they just No,

Speaker 2 (00:15:43):

No, of course it's

Speaker 1 (00:15:44):

Not. They just want the best for their record.

Speaker 2 (00:15:46):

Yeah, it's great. We're making heavy metal, we, it's brilliant. But there comes a time when you can't keep doing that. And I think a lot of studios fail or people exit the business purely for that. Are they sick of it or overworked managing it badly.

Speaker 1 (00:16:05):

So how do you handle that without pissing the bands off? And I'm asking because I remember when I was producing bands that this was a problem for me in dealing with bands, the trying to pace myself when they don't want to pace themselves and expect me not to pace myself, then I would feel guilty about it or feel like I was doing something wrong. And I don't know if it was imagined or real, but then I think that they were unhappy and then this negative spiral. So I guess what I'm wondering is how do you approach that with the bands so that it all stays cool while still respecting their ambition and their drive?

Speaker 2 (00:16:59):

And that is a killer question really. And I'm sure lots of people listening will be interested in that because the spiral you are describing is in the past for me, a reason that I've thought about shutting the studio down and getting out maybe in the first decade when I was sort of finding my feet and dealing with bands. For me nowadays, I'm just upfront about it. I just say, right, these are the hours you work around that if you've got accommodation or you want to plan your meals and they're all staying together and stuff, this is what we're doing. It's funny because since I've been working like that as well, everybody knows where they are, where in the past we've started working in the morning and we had no idea what time we were going to finish. And some people aren't cut out for it in the band, and they're not really going to say, oh, it's getting on a bit. No one wants to say that, but they might be really tired or they're hungry. Nobody stopped to eat. Everyone gets snacked and things can go a bit wayward. You can come in the next day and it's like those solos we did last night, they weren't really cutting it. What were we thinking? Three in the morning?

(00:18:16):

So nowadays, everybody knows what time we start, what time we're finishing, it's heads down hard graft. We're done. That's it. Go separate ways. Maybe we'll go for dinner. We'll set.

Speaker 1 (00:18:30):

There's a lot of studies about this subject about reading a book called Deep Work right now, and it's something that I've studied and thought about a lot and looked at what other people have to say about it, but there's a lot of thinking about the idea that both willpower and creativity are finite resources. And

(00:18:59):

Some people think that willpower is not a finite resource, but just that it's finite towards one thing. There's one school of thought that says that you can have as much willpower as you want throughout the day, as long as you keep changing your focus. And then there's other people who think that willpower is a finite resource that you recharge when you go to sleep. But the point is that the leading thinkers all think that no matter what, you're not going to be able to do the same thing indefinitely without losing steam. And so knowing that it's important to structure the day, in my opinion, to where the best hours are spent working, and then you're not trying to do that important work once you're past your ability to do the best important work.

Speaker 2 (00:19:56):

Yeah, that's totally true. I mean, everybody, drummers and vocalists especially, they're not going to, they don't have 10, 12 hours in them. No, generally, obviously, but they might want to have No, no, I could do more. I can do more. And you're like, you know what? Earlier on the snares were in the red clipping and now we're barely halfway up the meter. No, no. I can hit harder. I was like, you're going to inju yourself. No one wants to hear you past your best.

Speaker 1 (00:20:31):

It's a weird thing. It is. And also think about who you're dealing with. So you're dealing with a metal drummer who's really great. Think about the personality type it takes to become a great metal drummer. It's almost like being a top athlete combined with being a mathematical thinker. It's a weird, highly charged personality type. And so that thing that gets them to be a great drummer is that same thing that is going to make them not want to stop. And I mean, that's kind of why you've been hired to lead the way.

Speaker 2 (00:21:12):

Yeah, I do think it's, unfortunately, it's something that is really common with drummers and almost all the injuries I've ever seen a drummer really get. It's at the end of a session when they've lost that sort of real focus and that control. And it could be something stupid. They catch the edge of the symbol on the knuckles or something, or they sprain the forearm muscle during the ride or something, and the next day they can't play. We start two hours earlier when I said, you've got 10 hours more drumming today or a whole day or whatever it is. So yeah, there's been lots of, I told you so.

Speaker 1 (00:21:56):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:21:56):

But no one wants to hear that, did I?

Speaker 1 (00:21:58):

No. So let me understand what you're saying. So it all works better for you now that you're just upfront about it and set the boundaries clearly going in.

Speaker 2 (00:22:09):

Yeah, I just think too many bands have seen the Black album. It's in the middle of the night. Everyone's having such a great time because four in the morning, and they think that's part of the dream, especially the younger bands, the ones who haven't really set off down the road that's taken all the fun out of it and ruined the dream. They're eager, and it's great to have young bands in who don't have studio experience, but they're the ones who more so than the band on their 15th album wanted to be in the studio one night.

Speaker 1 (00:22:50):

And the thing with those documentaries too is Black Album one that was a nine month process condensed into a two hour video, so you didn't really see the actual session just seeing some funny clips out of nine months. So there's no way to actually know what their schedule really was, whether or not you're seeing the once in a while nights or just the once in a blue moon, that's super unclear in that documentary in particular. They did a really great job editing it to make it seem a certain way, but I'm sure reality is very different than what's portrayed on that video.

Speaker 2 (00:23:40):

Oh yeah. Cool. Definitely. Yeah. But it doesn't change the fact that that bands buy into that sort of romantic

(00:23:49):

Relationship with the studio and doing all the hours. And I think another problem is most bands have jobs. They're on a finite window, they've booked it off work or whatever, and of course they haven't rehearsed their parts properly and some of the parts who've never played before because no bands rehearse anymore, so they're all coming in, they're like, oh, you've got the tab for the parts. And I'm like, Hey, those days she's a couple of work. You need to double them. And then the pressures on me, isn't it? It's like, oh, do I have to do a couple of more extra hours here? He can't get any more time off work. That stuff never goes away. And some of the more established bands, everybody's busy, even if you're in a professional touring band, when they're not on tour, they're doing stuff. So then they've got to get time away from that. So it doesn't matter whether it's that or a job, the time that they've allowed to come into the studio, they want to get it all done, but there's often not enough preparation done. So yeah, what do you do?

Speaker 1 (00:24:58):

Is it me? What do you do to not let yourself, okay, so these things that you're talking about are the things that help people get jaded and then exit the business or kind of develop a reputation for being hard to be around. But those things that you're talking about are just the reality of the game at this point of bands not coming in super prepared of time being a weird factor. How do you approach those things?

Speaker 2 (00:25:31):

I get ahead of it.

(00:25:34):

So when a band sort of says we want to come in, make the records next April say, I'm like, right, I want a full set demos, maybe 20 songs, we can pick the best songs and work on the songs and stuff on the Dropbox or via email and stuff like that. So I know they've written the songs because some bands turned up and haven't written any songs or songs. So I get ahead of it like that. I can be upfront about the amount of time available. I can give you a schedule, the main person I'm dealing with on the internet in the band, here's the schedule, make sure everybody's up to spec. If there's two guitarists, they need to be rehearsing together or on Skype, one-on-one playing the riffs the same. So there's lots of things you can sort of plan to ensure that when they turn up, we all know what we're doing. These are the songs we're recording all the parts. I know you can play them all. Preferably I can get a rehearsal tape recording on the phone under a jacket or something. It doesn't need to be anything special. I can just hear that the band that played the songs and they've checked the tempos are good, and the guitarists program drums are playable by the drummer.

(00:26:57):

All those stumbling blocks that if you don't say anything about it in advance, it just gets swept under the carpet. And then day one, oh yeah, we've only got seven songs, but we're going to write three more. And all the stuff that you've heard before from other bands starts to come out.

Speaker 1 (00:27:17):

Yeah, I feel like lots of times with producers who get over frustrated with that stuff, that's kind of their fault for not taking ownership of the project early on. There's always going to be surprises, but I think that if it's happening over and over, then the question that I have is, if you know that this is happening over and over, why are you not dealing with it ahead of time? What are you doing to make sure it doesn't happen? Or to minimize it,

Speaker 2 (00:27:54):

Someone that's got to do the job they, it's got to be somebody within the band who's running a tight ship, like a Dave Mustain type, or it's got to be me. So I'm always sort of really on it in the runup, especially with the songwriting, it really pains me when a band's written four or five good songs and then that the other five are just slung together, nowhere way near as good. And I can spot it and I say, look, come on, these five are really good, but these five, they're not really cutting it. And you can get them upgraded very, very quickly and quite easily, to be honest. As long as it's flagged up early on, I would say have a chat with the guy, see what they think, and then the email comes back. Yeah, they've all said they don't really like the songs either. It's like, this is your album you're planning on. Get in your band to the next level. Come on, let's get serious about what we're doing.

Speaker 1 (00:28:57):

Sometimes or lots of times you just need someone outside to point something out. I mean, that's the whole reason that coaches exist and mentors or bosses or leaders is just because stuff like that where they might know that out of the 10 songs, five are good, five are not so good, but for whatever reason, it's not like they're okay with bad songs, but they might not be fully internalizing how far off those songs are. Or they might have just accepted it for whatever reason and just not thought about it too much. Oftentimes it just takes somebody to point out what they already know is true. Usually that's the case.

Speaker 2 (00:29:58):

Yeah, it is. Yeah, it is. And especially if somebody is quite a prolific writer, like say Josh Middleton for instance, ssis, he can churn it out, I mean, to a good standard as well. He's like, I'll put all the demos in the Dropbox and there's loads of it. And you think Fair Play, he's a machine when it comes to writing, he just needs another set of ears. And it's not even like you need to make suggestions about the material. You can say, I think you're repeating yourself a bit there, or this seems a bit not really suiting for the band, or this song doesn't seem to have a chorus. Someone like him can take it on board, it can digest what you've written. Or we have a Skype meeting or whatever, and then all of a sudden everything's gone up another 15% in a week. And it's just having, it's giving him the ability to have a fresh perspective on what he's written. It is almost like you've got a bit of tunnel vision and then you've helped widen the way he's looking at his material.

(00:31:13):

So yeah, as a producer, that's kind of what you want to bring to the party really, isn't it? A band have written some songs and you can say, these ones aren't as good as these ones. These ones, they really sound like you grown up a bit from your last record. And try and get them to look at it like that really. And maybe that's what Rick Rubin did with Metallica. I mean, they made a big deal about him getting them to look backwards, but not try and copy what they've done in the past, but sort of have a new perspective what is they're trying to achieve and what they've written. So whenever a band sends me stuff like 10, 15 tracks and they can record an album, it's great to be able to say, these are the weak ones, these are the strong ones. We need a bit more of this. It's very mid-tempo. How about a few fast ones? They're like, oh yeah, yeah, we really think about that. It gets the project moving gets everyone toeing the line. So when they come into the studio, we all know what we're going to be doing.

Speaker 1 (00:32:26):

Yeah, man, I can tell you from my perspective as an artist that lots of times when collaborating with someone, what I'm really looking for is them to just say that thing that helps the light bulb turn on. For me, crim is the drummer in my band, and lots of times I'll send him songs and he will tell me within a song where there's too much of something or we need to take it in this direction here, just too much of one thing or whatever it is. And oftentimes just getting that is enough to help me see the way forward. I think lots of times when you're writing, it's tough to get a bird's eye view on it just because you're right there in it. Even if the answer is super obvious to someone who does have a bird's eye view, if you're right there on the ground, it can be unclear sometimes. And you just need that person to point out, all the songs are kind of between one 70 and 180 5 VPM, you've got eight songs in that range in four four.

(00:33:44):

Is it supposed to be that way or what? And then I remember I was told on the last doth record, man, you got a lot of songs at around 200. There's a song at 2 0 7, a song of 1 95, a song at 2 0 2. They're all kind of living in that range. Is that what you want? Because they're good, but is that what you want an album that's all in that range or not? And it's like, you're right. I'm just writing. I'm just writing and getting into it, and that's kind of what I'm naturally doing. So it takes someone saying that for me to say, oh, okay, I need to, alright, let's just put the click at one 30 and see what happens and go from there. And it's just hard sometimes to think of those solutions without having a partner help you. That's why I think collaboration is so essential.

(00:34:42):

I actually think that the idea of the Lone Operator in music is a myth just about always. It's a myth. You hear these stories about the Trent Resner or whatnot, and that's like a nice story, but it's not the truth. Even Trent Resner has always had a partner and any of these great solo artists or even a Dave Mustain type, well, they're always working with great people. So even if they are the leader, they're always working with great people and I just don't buy that People can do this alone. And so knowing that that's important, I think that it's also on the artists to find who they trust and ask them for that collaborative insight. But as a producer, I think that that's one of the most important things you can bring to a project.

Speaker 2 (00:35:41):

Yeah, definitely. And I do worry about metal, actually. I think there's lots of really great software metals now where you kind of don't need the basis or the drummer, especially if a guitarist, you can put a basic demo package together on your laptop. Bands can become a one man band. Looks like a band to the average punter. There's a band in the photo and everything, but actually there's Megamind one member who's controlling everything, telling everybody what to play, and then obviously at some point the album's made, but nobody really knows that it's not

Speaker 1 (00:36:29):

A band.

Speaker 2 (00:36:31):

It's not a band. It's no accidental riff writing in the rehearsal room. It's like, oh, what were you playing there? It's like, oh this. It's like, yeah, that's amazing. And they all start jamming in and it's amazing. There's ways is that old school, I know things have moved on, but

Speaker 1 (00:36:50):

Surely yes and no. It's old school. Yes,

Speaker 2 (00:36:52):

That's a great thing.

Speaker 1 (00:36:54):

Yes, no, so I agree with you. But then also the idea that bands will get back into the rehearsal space. I think that's wishful thinking just because the reality is that so many bands are not geographically together. They used to be So in the old days,

(00:37:13):

Bands formed based on who was around them, but that's not a thing anymore. My band right now, two members are in Austria, I'm in Milwaukee. One person's in Austin, Texas, another person's in Atlanta, another person's in Boston. So it could very easily go in that direction you're talking about where I just write every single thing and I tell everybody what to play, and I know there's lots of bands like that. So knowing that, I think you have to try get those accidental riffs or you have to make more of an effort to have it be more of a band album or a band creation because it could super easily go into the one man, the one man show, and I think that it usually won't be as good as it could be. But the idea of a band getting back in the rehearsal space, I just don't think that that's reality just because of the way that bands are these days. Man, metal Blade was telling me the other day, we're trying to plan music videos that it's now the norm for them to be arranging for photo shoots and music videos for the bands on the label to everything for the album to be done in one felt swoop because nobody lives in the same town, let alone the same country anymore. That's the norm now.

Speaker 2 (00:38:46):

Yeah. Yeah. It's the same for cradle keyboardist guitarist in Arizona ran now drummer guitarist in Czech Republic, Danny in England, bassist in Scotland. So yeah, same thing. Videos, we need all the photo shoot doing. What else can we do whilst everybody's flown in? Everything's got to be coordinated to that. I mean, maybe it's always going to be like that because you can hand pick from anywhere in the world the perfect member for your band, where in the eighties that was just impossible.

Speaker 1 (00:39:26):

Yeah, man, I was doing it in the nineties, but it was rough even in the two thousands. It was rough man, trying to find great members. Now it's still hard, but I can go to across the world and find the perfect lead guitar player for the project. But I do think that with that there's new challenges and it is important to realize that and then to work it into the writing process to where you can circumvent the limitations, I guess, to make more of an effort to be more collaborative.

Speaker 2 (00:40:15):

For sure. And I wonder because you're not a gang, you almost have to make effort in different ways to keep the lineup together, I guess. Because back when I did my band, we all lived within 20 miles of each other. So rehearsal was sort of a social gathering, hang out, talked about movies and new albums and stuff. We'd sit in the car and listen to new stuff when we were having a break or go to the pub, have a few drinks. We were like a gang really. And that was the core of the band. It was really about that. And being a band was secondary because we were good friends. We were all into the same stuff, so we were always together. They worked hand in hand, if you know what I mean. It was like we were a gang, a band that played music together. So when we were on tour and stuff, it was just an extension of that where I guess if you get people that you don't know into your band from different countries, you got to be very lucky, I guess, to get that on the roads.

Speaker 1 (00:41:24):

Yeah, I mean, I've never met some of the people in my band.

Speaker 2 (00:41:28):

Exactly. Yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:41:30):

It's a strange one, isn't it? It is. Because the way that you're describing the band is the way that I grew up too, is you guys against the world. And even though for me it was always just music and band first still, it was still very much a social thing and very much like a brotherhood thing, very much like, this is your squad, and that was really important to me. It's a lot tougher, but I wonder also, is that also just part of being 20 years old or 25 years old?

Speaker 2 (00:42:10):

Probably, yeah. I do think if I was looking back to when I started the studio and I was in my really early thirties then, and we'd already done 10 years of transit van, not even seats in minibus, it was on the plywood in the back in the dark, driving thousands of miles around Europe as a load of lads with all the gear. And it was like, yeah, no, we're going to take over the world. It was us against the world basically at the end of the band. I was pretty sick of doing it, to be honest, and I would never form a band now and go back to that. So yeah, part of it is the age, but saying that when I started the studio with a mobile rig, it really was very similar to how it was when it started the band. So I was sleeping on the floor in the rehearsal rooms or crashing at people's houses on the floor in sleeping bags, lumping gear in the car. The mobile rig was, it wasn't tiny, but it filled all the seats including the passenger seat in the front. So if I'd started the studio any later, I just don't think I would've started it. That

Speaker 1 (00:43:31):

Makes sense.

Speaker 2 (00:43:32):

A year of that was draining. Yeah, it was tough, but if somebody hadn't been in a band, doing something like that would probably seem quite alien, I think, to start hanging out with bands in that capacity. I was so used to it that it was just an extension of what I'd already been doing.

Speaker 1 (00:43:52):

Yeah, there's a lot of benefit I think to having done it yourself, easier for everything to be relatable, easier to communicate. I think. I'm curious about your work with Cradle of Filth, actually, just to change topics. You've been working with them for a while. It's a band that's been around forever. They've had ups and downs. They've been one of the most popular bands on earth to where their popularity started to fade and they've come back. They've had quite the career, several iconic lineups, basically everything you can think of that a successful metal band would've experienced, they've probably experienced at some point, and yet you've been working with them a lot. A long time. Yeah, a

Speaker 2 (00:44:52):

Long time. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:44:53):

So what I'm curious about is how have you approached, I guess, keeping the relationship, going through all their changes? How have you stayed right there with them? Because lots of times what happens when a band goes through changes is one of the first things to go as the producer, especially if

Speaker 2 (00:45:15):

You've

Speaker 1 (00:45:16):

Been working with the producer for a while.

Speaker 2 (00:45:19):

I think it's starting to, my relationship with Danny, to be honest, I just think it's just mates really, and there's a trust issue there or a trust element there that we see eye to eye on almost everything to do with the band, the songs, we don't really have a clash of opinion, so if I say, this needs to be better, he's like, yeah, yeah, I agree a hundred percent. So we tend to get things lifted up and it's also quite difficult to organize the band members. Obviously it goes back to the internet and everything. So I think we just have a shared vision of where we see the band and then the conversations we have are usually about getting everything for the next project or whatever to tow that line and then saying the right things to the band members to get the songs written in a certain way. So it really starts with the relationship that I have with Dan and where we see the band going next.

(00:46:26):

Dan lives very close to me, like 15 minute drive, so it's easy for us to stay in touch. We can see each other, he can just come to the studio and it's easy for us to put a plan together, so if there's a new album in the works, we can go through the Dropbox together and figure out where we want to take the band really. So even if you change guitarists or keyboard player or whatever, the consistent thing is that me and Diana working together in a way which is sort of solid and it's well thought out for out. What's going to come next?

Speaker 1 (00:47:09):

Well, that's the thing that is interesting about Crile, a filth and lots of bands where they've gone through lineup changes is when a band goes through lineup changes and also they have a long career to go through different evolutions, but yet they still sound like that band. That's always interesting because from lots of times fans associate when a member leaves a band, fans will get sad about it, but then the next album still sounds like that band. And I wonder if fans think about why that is. Is it because kind of like with you brought up the Dave Mustain example, it's like, okay, so to me what that means is it's super clear that, and I'm sure this is clear to everybody, but the Megadeath universe, he is the center of the Megadeath universe and the artistic vision, and he always has been and he's always had great people to help fulfill that vision, but even without them, that vision is his. It's his. And that's why every Megadeath album sounds like Megadeath. It's why every Cradle of Filth album sounds like cradle of filth regardless of who's in the band and regardless of what direction it's going in.

Speaker 2 (00:48:41):

Yeah, I mean you could definitely credit Danny as the musical director. He's just very good at getting people to see the overall picture of the back catalog, and obviously it's there for anyone to hear who joins the band. They can get a flavor. It's easy to say, we want it to be a bit more like this album this time, if you needed to pinpoint it down for a style. But also the guys will write a lot of material. Dan's good at selecting what he likes from the submissions as well because he knows the sound that represents the band so well. He's like, that's not us. That's not immediately that stuff's sort of taken off the table. That's not to say you want to move the sign forwards that some stuff would still be considered, but maybe I'll bring that ear a little bit. I say, well, we've done a lot of that already. Maybe we need to go a bit this way. And he's like, oh yeah, maybe. I do think once Dan is on a track, it immediately sounds like cradle filth and there's a certain sound to cradle cradle keyboards that as soon as they're on as well from building a mix from the kick upwards, there's certain stages where it suddenly sounds like Cradle Phil for more than it would've done if it hadn't been sort of directed by Dan, if you know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (00:50:12):

Yeah. Quite

Speaker 2 (00:50:14):

Hard to explain.

Speaker 1 (00:50:15):

Well, they have signature elements, so I think part of your job is to make sure that those signature elements are doing their job. I think lots of times, I'm curious your experience with this. Lots of times, and I hear this from artists, they have problems with mixers because even if the mixer is a great mixer and they give them a quote, great mix, oftentimes they'll, it'll be wrong in that whatever the signature element is that matters the most, that'll get overlooked or buried. And that's like this common complaint I hear from artists, and I've had that complaint too, and when you have something like Cradle of Filth where first of all it's got a specific sound, second of all, it's got non-traditional arrangements to wear orchestra or keyboards and metal. That's some tough shit to mix. And I think that the instinct initially for any metal mixer is to just turn that stuff down just because sonically you're fighting guitars the whole time. So the instinct is always to turn that stuff down. So what I'm wondering for you is when you do get an artist with very specific sound and non-traditional arrangements, are you looking to the artist to direct you at all or how do you make sure that you understand exactly not just what it needs to be to sound proper, but to sound like them?

Speaker 2 (00:52:03):

That is the holy grail though, of being a good mixer, and I'd struggle with it, maybe not so much a cradle, but imagine I've sent off the masters, I've just finished a cradle album, and then I've got another album to mix by someone else, and it's like I could make it sound like them to cobble the mix together quickly or you've got to dig really deep. It's like what does the band need to sound like? What is it that you are going to latch onto? Steve's amazing at it. He can work with priests and it sounds like priests. He knows what priests need testament. He brings out the band, and that's what I've learned from Andy is what is the band about? What are you trying to say with the mix? It's so hard to explain, but it is sculpting their identity more into the sand.

(00:53:14):

It's like a guitar tone. You sit with a guitarist and you need to know what the band sounds like to get the tone. You can't just choose any tone for the, just because the guitarist likes it. You've got to be thinking about the band. I worked with Andy on a mono moth about 10 years ago, and they've got a really specific tone. It's all based around how deep and load the singer's voices, and it's really robust and thick and heavy. And I saw Andy work the tone for the projects and it was so interesting because it comes down to that fit in the sounds and the style of the band, and you'd be thinking about their logo and the way they look and everything is their sound, and when you mix for it, it needs to tie together, doesn't it? You can't just have any mix. If you tried to put a hate breed mix on cradle, it just wouldn't work, would it? It's terrible.

Speaker 1 (00:54:22):

No, it wouldn't work at all. Do you think that that requires understanding the back catalog at all?

Speaker 2 (00:54:28):

Yeah, I do think you need to do research. I do research for bands. There's a band I work with called Benediction. They've been around for in the uk, and they did an album called Grind Bastard in the mid nineties. It was kind of held as their best record, and it is a great record, it's got real sound. But then they made a couple of albums since with different people and cobbled it together with different singer and they totally lost the sound. And then I did an album with them and I wanted to go back to that sound, so I had to really research that stage of their career and what makes them sound like that on that record and try and sort of reverse engineer it because that's what they wanted as well. They were like, that's when we were there sounding our best. That sort of identity is on that record. We need that blueprint on this record. So yeah, you definitely need to do the research. It's not just drum sounds, it's guitar sounds, and obviously if you're mixing, you want to get rid of bad frequencies and things and get everything clear as possible, but I find with a band like them is if you go too far with that sort of stuff, it doesn't sound like them as much, so you need some stuff that you'd rather take out left in. Do you know what I mean? Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:55:55):

But exactly what that is. I think that's the art, I guess.

Speaker 2 (00:56:00):

Yeah, it could be like they need loads of 4K in their guitars, but everybody takes it out, but they need it. It's like there's just different rules. It's like obituary. Who would choose that tone? No one.

Speaker 1 (00:56:17):

But it sounds sick with them,

Speaker 2 (00:56:19):

But it's amazing.

Speaker 1 (00:56:20):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:56:20):

Yeah, it's amazing for them.

Speaker 1 (00:56:24):

I think that that requires not being bound by, I guess both habits and rules,

Speaker 2 (00:56:33):

Because

Speaker 1 (00:56:34):

What I've noticed, at least through observing URM students and then also just knowing that I've gone into these traps too, is you think that there's a way of doing things and the better you get, the more you solidify how to do things. And those things that we're talking about now that given artists their identity, usually those are outside of the proper way of doing things. It's places where you have to bend rules or just do things outside of the box, and it's hard to just do that. I think that you have to, to overcome that human need to do the same thing every time.

Speaker 2 (00:57:25):

Yeah. It's so difficult though, especially if you're up against the clock. You know what works. You know that if you use this plugin with this EQ on it for base, it's always going to sound good. These drum samples that you've used before, you've already got EQs and stuff dialed in for those, you could just throw those in and that would be alright. This guitar sounds a good tone, so we could just use that, but that isn't necessarily going to be right for the band, is it? I'd say the hardest time that I have when I'm sort of trying to fit sounds to bands is when the band has got no discography at all. They're a new band or their local band and they're starting their journey, you kind of have to grill them. I'll be setting the drum kit up and setting the mics up in the stands, and I'll be talking to the band the whole time about what they grew up on, where they see the band go in, what sort of bands would be good to tour with, where did they see the band, because not necessarily all the members in the band would share the vision.

(00:58:27):

So I mean, I've got to get an idea from somewhere. So you kind of have to sort of do some homework, whether it's discography or through the band members,

Speaker 1 (00:58:38):

Because if you don't do that, what then you're kind of inventing their sound for them.

Speaker 2 (00:58:44):

Yeah, that's based on what it's got to be based on something, isn't it?

Speaker 1 (00:58:48):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:58:49):

If somebody in the band who wrote all the songs, it's really into Alex Cooper. There might be enough to, it would certainly give you some idea of where he is coming from maybe.

Speaker 1 (00:59:04):

I guess it's kind of being a detective pretty

Speaker 2 (00:59:07):

Much. Yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:59:08):

It is. Have you ever encountered young bands who don't have any vision whatsoever and they just want you to give it to them?

Speaker 2 (00:59:18):

Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. There's an English band that's sort of doing quite well now. They're called South as Salem. I did their debut and Ramesh has just done their new album and it still sounds like them. To me, it's different because he's done it and he works very differently to what I would do, and obviously he's very good at making records as well, but when I heard it, I could still hear them in it, so they're obviously bringing in something. They weren't that vocal about how they wanted to sound. To me, that was quite a tricky one, so the sound I gave them, I dunno whether he's gone off that, but that was a weird one. They've only just released a couple of tracks and I heard it. I couldn't wait to hear it, and it sounds amazing, but it still sounds like them.

Speaker 1 (01:00:09):

I guess at the end of the day, being vocal is good, but some people don't know how to be vocal about those things, and I think that that makes it even harder for a producer. If the band is not very vocal, then you have to analyze it even harder or just trust your instincts. But lots of times, lots of times I think bands or musicians, even mixers, they just get their sound and they don't think about it. That's

Speaker 2 (01:00:40):

Just

Speaker 1 (01:00:40):

Kind of who they are, so they haven't thought about why they are who they are. They just are who they are, and so no matter who they record with, it's still going to sound like them. They have a very defined musical personality. I think it is very much personality where there's some people who have very bland personalities. You've probably met a hundred people with the exact same personality or a thousand people with the exact same personality, and there's probably millions, hundreds of millions more with that same personality where they're completely interchangeable, and then you have other people who, for whatever reason, there's only one of them. You don't know anybody else that's like them,

Speaker 2 (01:01:26):

And

Speaker 1 (01:01:26):

They didn't try to be that way. They just are that way,

Speaker 2 (01:01:29):

And

Speaker 1 (01:01:30):

Musically, I think it's the same thing where there's just people like that where if you're recording them, it's just going to sound like them without even trying to do anything other than just recording them.

Speaker 2 (01:01:46):

Yeah, I think they're the ones that are likely to get somewhere as well.

Speaker 1 (01:01:53):

Yeah, totally.

Speaker 2 (01:01:54):

They just have that thing. I remember when I first met Andy James and he started playing guitar because he was in his first band. I did the first couple of records and then I did a solo album with him, and second he started playing the guitar. I was like, he's going to make it. It was so effortlessly amazing, and his personality with the way he came with it as well, I thought he'd going to get there just new.

Speaker 1 (01:02:23):

It's undeniable with some people.

Speaker 2 (01:02:24):

Yeah, it is. Yeah. It's great to be able to have a studio and genuine talent comes in the door because a lot of the time it doesn't, and that's just part of having a studio really. You have to make the best of what comes in, and sometimes a maze and talent comes in and it's just the best thing ever.

Speaker 1 (01:02:49):

What's funny, man is some people say that talent doesn't exist. It's all hard work and my thoughts, my thoughts are you just haven't been around a genius because if you've been around real talent, then there's absolutely no denying it.

Speaker 2 (01:03:09):

They have a way in which they see the world as well. It's different to someone who's sort of trying to spin all the plates of life. They are like, well, this is what I do and I'm going to try and do this and survive, and you just think, yeah, why not? It's so easy to be discouraged if you have failed bands one after another and you're getting older. Andy was in a handful of bands and it wasn't happening, and then all of a sudden, boom, he's in five finger death punch.

Speaker 1 (01:03:46):

Yeah, imagine if he quit.

Speaker 2 (01:03:49):

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:03:50):

When I look at people like Andy James, that type, my thoughts are, well, if anybody should go all in, it should be you. Whether or not it's working out at this point in time, kind of back to one of the first things we talked about is would you tell your kid to go into music? If my kid was one of those types, I would, because if anyone should give it a shot, it's that type of person. Also for their own mental wellbeing, they're going to be miserable doing anything else, and they're going to absolutely hate their lives, but if anybody has a chance of it working out, it's that type of person, and so I feel like they should be encouraged. Totally.

Speaker 2 (01:04:43):

Yeah, definitely. If somebody's got the talent, but not necessarily the conviction, that can be frustrating. I know a handful of people like that, and I think your time's not up yet. Don't hang it up yet. Just keep the faith a little bit longer. You never know what's around the corner. Richie used to be a cradle. He's known a band at the moment. He's such a good songwriter, amazing guitarist did happen.

Speaker 1 (01:05:11):

Him, Richard Char.

Speaker 2 (01:05:13):

Yeah, lovely guy.

Speaker 1 (01:05:14):

Oh yeah. Brilliant. I've taken some lessons from him. He's fucking awesome.

Speaker 2 (01:05:19):

Killer player. Just such a good songwriter and no band. It's like, what's next?

Speaker 1 (01:05:25):

At this point

Speaker 2 (01:05:26):

I'm watching.

Speaker 1 (01:05:27):

Yeah. The thing with him is all he needs to do is keep trying. In my opinion. I know that things can seem dark, but I know full well, I took lessons from him how good he is, and I just paid attention to what I know. Were his contributions on that cradle record, just because it's super obvious that dude is good and all he needs to do is keep putting himself out there.

Speaker 2 (01:06:02):

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:06:03):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:06:03):

I mean, that's all anyone could do, isn't it? But it's just painful when you see somebody who's that good and it's like you just got to get the right gig. I'm cheering him from the sidelines all the time,

Speaker 1 (01:06:18):

But then when you do see someone get that gig, like Jeff Loomis finally landing in Arch Enemy. Yeah. And I know that he had never more, but there was a long period of time there where his career was not doing too great. One of the best guitar players on the planet, one of the best guitar players in metal history. And then after Nevermore it's like, well, what's happening? He did some solo stuff, he did conquering dystopia and there's always a core fan base for him, but never anything that was, I guess, on par with his talent level and ability level, like something appropriate for someone of his ability or what he represents I guess. But then eventually in his mid to late forties, arch Enemy happens and there you go.

Speaker 2 (01:07:20):

Yeah. I mean, for years SSIS saw on this sort of level platter. They weren't really hitting a mark. And then Josh got in architects and I thought, well, and really put some years in architects. He's obviously out of the band now, but that put him on the map and now he's doing SSIS again and Silos is really doing well now on a really good tour at the moment. The album's great. So sometimes it's like this and then that big step up and you're away. Totally. It's like you say, you've got to be a survivor and you just need that optimism and faith really.

Speaker 1 (01:08:07):

Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:08:08):

Because if you do rely on Plan B too much, there is no plan A is there?

Speaker 1 (01:08:14):

No, no, exactly. Well, Scott, I think this is a good place to end it. I think that's a perfect full circle on the episode, but I want to thank you very much for taking the time to hang out. It's been a pleasure. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (01:08:28):

Yeah. Appreciate the opportunity to bet

Speaker 1 (01:08:31):

The world

Speaker 2 (01:08:31):

To writes Anytime, man mix world and music world. Yeah,

Speaker 1 (01:08:37):

Anytime man. Thank you so much. Thank you. Nice one mate.