Oz Craggs: Studio Psychology, Problem-Solving, and Managing Egos

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:00:04):

And now your host, Eyal Levi.

(00:00:08):

Welcome to the URM podcast. Thank you so much for being here. It's crazy to think that we are now on our seventh year. Don't ask me how that all just flew by, but it did. Man, time moves fast and it's only because of you, the listeners, if you'd like us to stick around another seven years and there's a few simple things you can do that would really, really help us out, I would endlessly appreciate if you would, number one, share our episodes with your friends. Number two, post our episodes on your Facebook and Instagram and tag me at al Levi URM audio and at URM Academy and of course our guest. And number three, leave us reviews and five star reviews wherever you can. We especially love iTunes reviews. Once again, thank you for all the years and years of loyalty. I just want you to know that we will never charge you for this podcast, and I will always work as hard as possible to improve the episodes in every single way.

(00:01:10):

All we ask in return is a share a post and tag us. Oh, and one last thing. Do you have a question you would like me to answer on an episode? I don't mean for a guest. I mean for me, it can be about anything. Email it to [email protected]. That's EYAL at m dot A-C-D-E-M-Y. There's no.com on that. It's exactly the way I spelled it. And use the subject line. Answer me Eyal. Alright, let's get on with it. Hello everybody. Welcome to the URM Podcast. My guest today is Oz Craggs, who's a producer mix engineer and studio owner out of Hidden Track Studios in Fulton, England. He's been working in the industry for nearly two decades and has worked with a plethora of bands and labels, including neck deep, Mallory, Knox, gallows, and a ton more. This is a really good conversation. Introduce you, Oz Craggs. Welcome to the URM Podcast. Hey

Speaker 3 (00:02:07):

Al, thanks for having me. It's be a real honor to be invited on. Thanks

Speaker 2 (00:02:10):

For being here. I want to just get right into something that you mentioned on the pre-interview that I thought was interesting. You said that you don't think that you have innate talent, a lot of the people out there, but I think there's something to be said about the innate drive to work really, really hard. I don't think that everybody just has that the drive to succeed and the drive to actually do what's necessary is kind of as rare as what people would call talent. And so what I'm curious is what was your average day when you were first starting out, trying to turn this into something compared to a current day for you?

Speaker 3 (00:02:54):

Okay, that's a good question. I started recording in a studio in my hometown where I grew up. It was on the back of a music shop. So often there would be a recording session that would just usually be a vocal over a backing track, kind of someone singing along to a cover or something like that. So those days were mainly spent selling guitars and making coffee. But when I went self-employed and I first started going out on my own and had a small home studio in my parents' garage, my average day when I first started there would be, I actually had a side hustle of cleaning a leisure center, which is a swimming pool and a gym near me because obviously in the first year of trading you don't have enough bands to really make a lot of money. So I used to have a few side hustles and one of them would be going to do that. So I'd actually get up pretty early and go out to this place and clean toilets and showers before I'd come back and start a session if I had a session. But then sometimes it would be just doing vinyl transfers to digital people. It was like in the CD era that I was started. So I was kind of transferring vinyls to CDs or mini discs and then occasionally every so often or progressively more and more I was getting local bands in as well.

Speaker 2 (00:04:15):

That's quite a difference in the side hustle from the main gig. However, those are some applicable skills. Cleaning toilets actually translates into studio life, especially if you intern for somebody.

Speaker 3 (00:04:28):

It's funny because at the start of this COVID era, the cleaner that I had for my studio stopped coming in because obviously for obvious reasons, but also he had some other things going on. So I've actually had to double down on my cleaning skills once again for the first time in a while. So I'm back to cleaning my own studio. It feels like the good old times.

Speaker 2 (00:04:48):

Yeah, full circle.

Speaker 3 (00:04:50):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:04:50):

So how many hours would your day typically be?

Speaker 3 (00:04:53):

It's so hard to remember. Obviously it's such a long time back now, but I just remember spending a lot of time if I wasn't with a band or making money elsewhere, it was a lot of time spent on my space drumming up business or going to local gigs. So it was a lot of hustling back then, a lot of trying to find people to work with and that kind of thing. So yeah, I've always definitely put the hours in. Definitely not scared of long days.

Speaker 2 (00:05:21):

How does it compare to now?

Speaker 3 (00:05:22):

I think I probably put more hours in now, to be honest. I think I've got a bit of a, I think you build up a weird tolerance to working long days. And I think obviously the clients I work with now are obviously kind of a bit more advanced or a bit more successful than maybe the ones that I did when I first started. So deadlines become a real thing, and when you have lots of people needing revisions or stems or mixes done on time, you have to be prepared to put in a lot of hours just to make sure you're keeping everyone happy. Really,

Speaker 2 (00:05:55):

This is why when interns are sometimes tested by potential employers or anyone is tested, there will be some tough situations thrown at them, like real quick deadlines, situations that involve very little sleep, things that will generally stretch them to their limits. And the idea is to see are they going to crack? Can they handle this? Because if they can't handle this, there's absolutely no way that they're cut out for doing this for real, because contrary to what a lot of people may think, the more successful you get, the busier you get and the higher the pressure is. It's not like you become successful and can work less. I mean, there comes a point where you can have more balance once you have enough momentum going, but the amount of work only goes up, the amount of pressure only goes up. And so if someone can't hang with that kind of stuff at the very, very beginning, it's a really, really good indicator that not going to work.

Speaker 3 (00:07:07):

Agreed. And it's funny because there's so many facets of recording, producing, mixing that I think get overlooked when people start off or are interested in getting a career in this. They think either they're attracted to the technical or the engineering side of things and the toys and the plugins and software or they're attracted to just the idea of working in music. But there's just so many other sides of it. The people skills, people management and time management and being prepared to just put in an awful lot of hours and dealing with a lot of pressure and problem solving. I think as well, I think the majority of this job as a producer certainly is problem solving.

Speaker 2 (00:07:51):

I actually think that, I've said this before, I think that in order to be a great mixer or a great producer, you have to be a great problem solver. And I've had some people react badly to that saying that to say that takes away the art side of things, but I don't think it does. You can't create a complex piece of art without solving problems.

Speaker 3 (00:08:16):

Exactly. And certainly in my experience, I mean especially now with most of the songs I work on the minimum, again short of maybe a kind of one-off of an acoustic song on a record or something like that, the average song has 80 plus 80 to 200 tracks, and there is no way you can mix 80 to 200 tracks of audio without problem solving. I dunno, anyone that can filter down or funnel down that much sound into a listenable mix without making compromises figuring out things. So I think even just on the basic level of mixing, I think problem solving is huge, but then when you're producing as well, things like even just stuff like this week for me, I'm dealing with talking to a band that I'm doing a record with coming up and there's kind of scheduling issues with certain members having to do certain things. So you're problem solving on multiple projects at multiple times at the same time and multiple issues at the same time. So yeah, I think being a good problem solver is I would absolutely agree with you. I think it's a huge part of doing this.

Speaker 2 (00:09:21):

Yeah, well that's why this is actually so hard to do in my opinion, is because you have to marry an artistic vision with a pretty sophisticated technical, and oftentimes those types of things don't go together in my opinion.

(00:09:39):

Oftentimes it's one or the other. I mean, guitar can have a very technical approach if you want, but at the end of the day, you're still playing stuff that feels cool. That's kind of what it all boils down to at the very, very end of everything with playing an instrument or painting, you're making something that looks cool, you're kind of creating something out of thin air, but you're not fucking with a bunch of parameters and technology in the same way, in my opinion, because it just comes down to a physical act when it comes to something like mixing and production. You are creating something out of thin air, but you have to manipulate very complex equipment and tons of moving pieces, so many moving pieces along the way to get it to not sound first of all, like a total piece of garbage. And then beyond that actually sound like something that people might enjoy that's craziness.

Speaker 3 (00:10:36):

And I think it's funny, as I continue to improve and learn more and hopefully get better at my craft, the understanding of the minutia of you learn, you can see the problems coming much further off in the distance. So when you see even arrangement wise, oh, there's here, but there's also guitars and there's rhythm guitars, and then there's clean underlay guitars and there's lead guitars, there's screaming and then there's singing and it's all happening at once. You can kind of just hear instantly that that's going to be problematic to some degree because there's not going to be one just clear, distinctive front voice. So I think the better you get at doing this, you start to see the problems further away. But similarly as a producer then you have to kind of try and convey that and feed that information back to the band without sounding like you're being dismissive of their art as well. So it can be a challenging kind of thing to kind of parlay this knowledge that you've learned and the wider understanding of how the nuts and bolts of a mix could go together, but not sound like you are dismissing someone's raw art.

Speaker 2 (00:11:39):

Yeah, I agree. Well, the problem in my opinion is that someone who doesn't understand mixing, they might not understand why something is difficult or may not work because they're just hearing they've got a sonic vision in their head, but that sonic vision in somebody's head isn't limited by a physical medium like a speaker that has to recreate it and somehow fit everything in and work in a certain phase with another speaker. There are physical constraints to actually being able to reproduce these sounds, but in your head, when you're imagining something, there's no physical constraints. And I think that it's really, really hard for someone who doesn't actually understand how to mix. It's hard for them to get that, I think, because they'll hear some mix by somebody else where they think they're hearing certain things and they'll have a sonic vision and then they will assume that you can just do that with theirs.

Speaker 3 (00:12:42):

Exactly, yeah, and this is a thing, I mean, I think it is a funny one because I was talking to someone recently about I think a friend or someone that isn't in the industry just was asking me, oh, as you've done this longer and got better or supposedly got better, do you mix quicker? And I've said, no, no, I mix slower. I'm getting slower and slower, which is strange, but the problem is that as my ears develop and as I understand the mechanics of a mix so much better, you hear so many more things wrong with it, I guess because your ears are becoming educated and trained to spot these clashes so much better. But as I said, it is hard sometimes. Again, I think it's a real kind of a skill that I constantly trying to keep working on is that understanding that while it's so obvious to me or or plenty of other people listening to this, that when you hear a clashing part or there's two guitar parts sitting in the same range or register and then there's a vocal there as well, and then people are wondering why you could only hear the vocal or the lead guitar isn't cutting through as much.

(00:13:44):

It's kind of obvious to us because we've done it so many times, but it's hard to remember that, like you said, these bands, that it's the vision in their head. They don't have that experience or technical skill to even understand why. So the job or the skill then becomes how you communicate that issue and without standing dismissive or rude or a bit of a douche when you're telling them that it isn't going to work.

Speaker 2 (00:14:08):

Bit of a douche or a total douche.

Speaker 3 (00:14:11):

Yeah, I've probably been called worse.

Speaker 2 (00:14:13):

Oh yeah, I've definitely been called worse. And also funny you say that when I think back to how I've handled certain things in the past, I cringe from how much of an asshole I've been versus how I would handle certain things now. And so I definitely think that the ability to deal with other people and to have to A, disappoint them, or B, get them to rethink their vision or C, get them to compromise part of their vision, there's a way to do it where people can be reasonably or very happy, maybe not always, but I think in most cases there's an art to it and a skill to it, and it's something that you can develop over time and it's actually one of the harder parts of this whole job, maybe the hardest part.

Speaker 3 (00:15:16):

I agree, and I think it's dynamic as well because no man is an island and all of that as well. We're human beings too, and we might have had two little sleep or not enough caffeine one day or something else going on in our life, and our communication skills might not be on their top form, and then that's going to just affect that conversation or how that conversation will go down. So it is, like you said, it's such a critical part of the job that is so easily overlooked, but the longer I've done this for and the more bounds I've worked with, you also learn how to read the room and pick up on what the vibe is with different people and how you can communicate with one person in the room is different to how you can communicate with someone else. And you get a lot quicker at reading that situation and knowing when to make a joke or when to not say anything at all or when to let the band kind of hash this idea out between themselves before your job as a producer at that point is to stay quiet. I think that is just like you said, it's a skill that you have to learn from just doing a lot of hours of doing it and upsetting people and apologizing and working out why you upset them and try to learn from it, I guess.

Speaker 2 (00:16:25):

Yeah. How did you learn it? I mean, did you learn it the way you just said just by doing it a lot or did you put some thought into it? The reason I'm asking is because for instance, I know that Chris Rommet studied psychology in college and suggests that for people who go into this line of work, he suggests that you just go ahead and read books on psychology so that a little bit more about it. So you have at least a few reference points and ideas on how to deal with extreme personalities and conflict resolution.

Speaker 3 (00:17:03):

That's great advice. Yeah, I mean for my self-deprecating in the pre-interview about not having innate talent, which I stand by, I do mean that, but I do have some kind of skills and I think I've always been fairly good as a fairly kind of extroverted person. I like meeting people, I like talking to people and enjoy conversing in general. So I think communication has never been a struggle for me, but anything, you develop skills and you do things, and I tend to find as well that it seems kind of obvious, but I'm sure it'll ring true for you and you'll understand what I mean is that I think if people understand that you are coming at it from a place that you care about their song and you really give a shit about how it sounds, and that is why you are kind of essentially causing this upset because ultimately you feel it's worth the upset to make the product better or to make their song better, that is a good starting point I think for people to realize that you are not just being a kind of contrarian in the situation. So that's kind of a big thing for me. I try not to use any negative language rather than saying something's not good. You would say something can be better. And I think obviously that's a very basic example, but I think that's a good kind of blueprint of just generally how I approach it is just explain to people, look, if I didn't care, I wouldn't say anything. I would just sit here, press record and take my money, but I do care. So that's why we're having this conversation,

Speaker 2 (00:18:30):

Man, that idea of telling people that something just totally sucked. I think that some people will say that they're okay with it. In my experience, not that many people are actually okay with that. And even if they say that they're okay with it in the moment, there will be some resentment that builds over time and a gradual chipping away of your bond, your working bond. If you use that kind of language and take that kind of approach with people, you could end up making a great record or many great records and just never have your clients come back to you. I know of a few producers who are pretty heavy hitters who are notorious douchebag, tyrant pieces of shit in the way that they deal with people and their career is a series of first records with a band. And those records sometimes do really well, which is why they get other clients, but the bands never go back to them, and it has everything to do with how they're treated. And what I think is interesting about that is that no amount of success on a record will get a band to go back to a producer that they had a bad experience with personally. It just doesn't happen.

Speaker 3 (00:19:50):

Yeah, I can really see that as well. And I think there's a few interesting things you said about just telling someone that it sucked. The only time I would ever say anything as kind of blunt and aggressive as that is if I had such a good bond with the band that they knew that I was making a joke because I would never say that seriously to a band that's just not the language I use in the studio, but just a kind of nuanced point on that really that I have a theory about, and it might be interesting to see if you agree or what your reaction is to it, but I will tailor the kind of language I use and also the pace I'm working at, how enthusiastic or how animated I am to the instrument as well. I think different performers and different musicians playing different instruments require a different type of interaction.

(00:20:37):

So with vocals and drums, it's a very similar kind of process for me, which is I'm doing as few takes as I possibly can and it is high energy, high octane, I don't use any, they'll never be not good or bad or sucked or there will be no negative language. And usually if I do have other band members here specifically for vocals, they will be told in no uncertain terms that they will not speak to the singer while we're working on a track. And if the singer asks for their input, all they'll say is, it sounds fucking great. That's all their band are allowed to say to a singer when I'm working with them because then I'll say to them, look, various points through the song, my hands are not going to be on the talk back, Mike. I'll turn around and say to you, is there anything in here you want me just to go over?

(00:21:24):

And that's the process. So the band will be like, if the singer quite often will go, oh, what do the boys think in the back? What do the guys think? They put the talk back on for them. They go, yeah, it's fucking great, man. You're killing it. And then they say to me, he's got the wrong lyrics in that second line on the verse. Okay, cool. And I'll just say to them, rather than saying, you've got the wrong lyrics, I'm like, it's perfect. It's sounding great. I wouldn't mind just one more hit at that first verse. Oh, can you just read me the lyrics quickly and then they'll go, oh, I think I might have sang the wrong lyrics. Oh, okay, cool. We'll just have one more go at it. There's so many ways of communicating, but I think vocals is so critical and drums as well, because it's such a physical, it's a performance. You can't fake drums or vocals. It is literally a performance just like it is on stage. There's no difference with guitar when you're on stage, you are in the power stance and you're head banging and it's loud on the studio, you're usually sat on a comfort chair with a drink next to you punching in parts. It's so different. I think that with vocals and drums, I really kind of make sure that the communication and the energy is right for the person. I think it's really, really critical.

Speaker 2 (00:22:27):

What's interesting here to me is what's always been difficult about this, and I agree with you completely, the approach that I just try to take in life as well, which is tailoring your communication style, not purpose, but style to the situation. Different people are going to react to different types of communication differently, and you have to keep in mind what the outcome is and what state of mind they need to be in to perform their best. Now, this has been tough for me because I've always been hyper aware of these kinds of communication techniques, and so when someone is using them on me, it's super, super obvious. If just say I was the vocalist and someone said, could you read me back the lyric? I'd be thinking, he's saying, I fucked up the lyrics. It would just be real clear to me.

Speaker 4 (00:23:22):

Sure.

Speaker 2 (00:23:22):

But I have come to realize over the years, and this might sound super obvious, but it's really important that not everybody is wired the same. And just because I would take something a certain way or feel a certain way about a communication style doesn't mean that everybody else would. And in fact, most people on earth don't think the way I think. So to assume that they think the way I think is erroneous and I shouldn't communicate with them from the standpoint of thinking that they're just going to understand things the way I do or interpret things the way I do. They're going to interpret things their way and understand things their way, and it's on me to meet them where they're at, not try to pull them over to where I am and just be like, what's the problem? The fucking lyrics are wrong. Just tell 'em the lyrics are wrong. Just get 'em right. What's the big deal?

Speaker 3 (00:24:15):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:24:15):

Yeah, no good. You can't do that.

Speaker 3 (00:24:18):

No, I mean, and that's it. And I think not only communication, it also shows that maybe you've probably got a very, very good sense of self and probably if you were the vocalist in that situation, you were like, listen, I'd just rather you just say to me, you fucked up the lyrics. Someone would have to be so kind of confident in themselves and comfortable in themselves to do that. And I'm sure you've worked with enough singers as well as I do that singers don't generally tend to fit that bill. Nope. Especially in the studio, they're generally the most fragile people, and that sounds like I'm being derogatory, but I mean their skill is that they can emote. So by virtue of that, they're emotional people. So you have to be more forgiving, I think in general, but I completely take your point that I might be treading too lightly around certain people and they're just like, it's all right, Oz, just rip the bandaid off. Let's go. So it does happen, but I generally would rather kind of go the softly, softly approach.

Speaker 2 (00:25:17):

I think that's way better. I think that people with blunt communication styles will let that be known up front. You'll be able to tell,

Speaker 4 (00:25:25):

They'll

Speaker 2 (00:25:26):

Make it pretty clear. I know I do to people. It's important also to just understand what that musician is going through. So with a vocalist, you're right, their thing is they need to be able to emote. If you break that down for them, they're not going to be able to get there, kind of like an actor or something. And also the fact that their physical body is the instrument and the mind body link is just so strong. You can't be taking shots at the way that they're feeling. You have to keep it all in that flow that keeps them in as close to a peak state as possible.

Speaker 3 (00:26:07):

That's exactly what I think too. And what's really interesting is talking to other producers as you go through this career, you make friends and you meet people, and it's so interesting that a lot of people have very different takes on this and approaches to dealing with this part of the job of getting the best out of people and not destroying someone's confidence while simultaneously telling them they need to change something. So it is really interesting that just there's so many different approaches and there are definitely people out there that would strongly disagree with me and kind of get the best by essentially breaking the person down. But for me personally, I've just found time and time again that in my experience being someone's biggest fan primarily while with DRA vocals, I'm that singer's biggest fan and I'll be enthusiastic and my phone won't be in my hand.

(00:27:03):

I'll be all in on their vocal and just telling them every bit that they did well, they'll know about it. And I'll never say, oh, you fucked that line up. I would say, you smashed that line there. That is so good. Oh my god, that's the best. You sung that line killer. Keep going. I definitely come as like a cheerleader, especially with vocals. But again, now that might not work for some people. It might be that I've worked with bounds and taken that approach and they've just like, they find it irritating or they find it disingenuous and they ultimately settle up with someone that's maybe a bit more casual or bit more of the traditional British kind, understated, stiff, upper lip approach, which is usually just someone going, yeah, that's all right. That's all you'll get. That's the usual British way. So I'm definitely aware it's not for everyone, but just in my, and it makes me feel good because if I'm amping myself up and I'm amping them up, it's like everyone's having more fun. And I think when everyone's having fun, generally the results are better as well.

Speaker 2 (00:27:59):

I think so too. It's a very tough thing to quantify because

Speaker 4 (00:28:04):

There's

Speaker 2 (00:28:05):

No metric, there's no fun quotient. You can't dial in the number of fun points, but it works. It works well. You know what though? There are some classic records like those corn records where you see the home videos and doesn't look like they're having fun, looks like they're going through a very painful experience, and those are great too. So I would say that it's more than just fun. When people are in the zone, they do a much better job, whatever zone that is. And the thing is that having a good time, a fun time gets you closer to it in lots of ways. So I definitely think that there's something to that, and for most cases, you don't need someone to relive a trauma in order to do something really, really great when you're tracking a drummer or a guitar player or a bassist or whatever. Most vocals and most songs, you don't need them to go back to some place where they're reliving some horrific event. But even if that's what you have to do still, the point is everyone's got to be in that zone.

Speaker 3 (00:29:15):

Yeah, definitely. I think I suppose with the fun thing, I was being selfishly more talking about myself because if I'm enjoying the process more I guess, and feeling like I'm invested and I'm amped up on it, then I come into the studio every day super pumped about what we're doing. I just tend to find that if I was a bit more nonchalant, that would affect me and my belief or my enthusiasm to the project. But no, I completely agree. And it's funny because there's definitely, say I'm working with a band and there's a song that's clearly a sad song where the singers singing about something traumatic or heartbreaking for them, I will make sure that, again, it is the producer's job to make sure that you're setting up an energy or an environment that emotion can be conveyed and can present itself. But I think the link between amping someone up or being like, fuck yeah, it was amazing, versus giving someone a space where they can be vulnerable is by being completely focused in on it and dialed into it and enthusiastic, but not necessarily in a loud way, but just kind of being very present with the vocalists, and I think that is something that you can kind of parlay into different things.

Speaker 2 (00:30:29):

Yeah, absolutely. How do you get yourself there when it's a topic you can't relate to?

Speaker 3 (00:30:36):

I would say most projects I do, I'll have a conversation with the singer about what the song's about, especially if I've caught the odd lyric because I'd say the majority of what I do is half singing or mostly singing. I very, I'd say probably a smaller proportion of the stuff I work on is all screaming. Where I think with screaming, the lyrics sometimes are super important, but generally it's more the emotion behind the lyric in the scream. That's like the important aspect. But I think with singing, there's so much of it that the lyric really kind of is important. So quite often I'll have a conversation with a singer before we start the song and just say, oh, what's it about? Or if I've worked with a band before that, usually they're quite excited to have that conversation with me, so they'll preempt it and say, oh, Oz, check this out.

(00:31:20):

This is what this song's about, so they'll be quite excited to talk it through with me. So just by having a conversation as we're starting the song puts them into a headspace. And then again, if it was, I'm wanting to give examples, but I'm also aware that I don't want to out anyone because there's been some awesome experiences, but I'll kind of tread lightly around this. But there was an example where I worked with a band where it was the first time I'd worked with a band and as I'm making small talk with them as we are doing whatever asking, oh, do you guys have girlfriends? You have relationships, what's the deal? Having those kind of conversations and the singer kind of threw away quite quickly. Oh, I was actually married, but I'm not anymore. But it was really a kind of nonchalant way. So ro on four days later we start tracking the vocals.

Speaker 2 (00:32:06):

Was it like, oh, I better pay attention to this?

Speaker 3 (00:32:09):

Yeah, exactly. It is something that kind of pricked my ear a little bit, but you don't push on it. But four days later we start tracking vocals on a song and the lyrics are so obviously about this and the room goes silent and everyone's realizing that this is a moment and the singer is singing this take with literally tears rolling down his face. It's like you could hear his voice cracking throughout the song and he made it to the second chorus and then just broke down, and that was the take we used on the actual thing up to those two verses. They're the actual performance that's used in the final mix because it was something so powerful about it had I not maybe had that conversation just pure small talk, throwaway conversation just to kind of build a bit of rapport between me and the band who I've never met before, I would not have picked up on that. So I think it's just being aware of that,

Speaker 2 (00:32:53):

I'd say not just the fact that you had the conversation, but you had the conversation and also were able to key in on that detail.

Speaker 3 (00:33:01):

Yeah, I think you're right, and I think that's it. As I said, it is those little details of those little tricks of being present or paying attention to people. I really do think that that's what's helped me keep me doing this job and keep bands coming back or people wanting to work with me. I think that's probably a bigger facet than the guitar tone I get a band or the kick drum sound.

Speaker 2 (00:33:26):

Well, the things that people tell you have so much meaning to them that they don't necessarily understand that they're conveying, and if you are really paying attention to everything, the tone of their voice, the tempo at which they're speaking, what the context is, what the other things that they were saying around it were the vibe of how they set it, their facial expression, all those things. If you're actually paying attention, you can figure out everything or just about everything you need to know from just a few sentences, but you have to be actually listening and you have to actually give a shit about what the person is saying actually care.

Speaker 3 (00:34:16):

Yeah, and I think that's, again, it's probably the ability to listen is I've found something that maybe has got better with age. I dunno if you would agree with that or not. I've found that I want to listen more now, whereas maybe in my twenties when I was a bit younger, I was a bit more bullish and you'd ask questions more for a formality or for a politeness thing, but now I think you get a bit older and you get a bit more life experience, and I think you do care about the answer and you are more interested in other people's stories. I guess

Speaker 2 (00:34:48):

You said that you feel like it gets better with age, and I agree with you. However, if I'm thinking about my own life, that's something that I think I've always been pretty good at, which is understanding what other people are saying and understanding what's beneath the surface. I've been able to use those cues to make decisions throughout my entire life, and it's served me very, very well, but it's something that I didn't have to use to think about. I still kind of don't if I don't want to. I just understand things when people are saying something and they're being disingenuous or they're saying something and it means something else that they may not know they mean or they're unhappy but they don't know they're unhappy, all those types of things that are super important, that's always just come to me, always. I could just read it like a book.

Speaker 4 (00:35:40):

Sure.

Speaker 2 (00:35:40):

Now the thing that's changed over the years is that rather than just taking those impressions and then running with my interpretation of them, which is what I would do in the past is just log the info and keep going. Now I actively try to engage people so that because first of all, I wasn't always right. I was right a lot of the time, but not always. Your intuition's not always going to be dead on, so I want to eliminate misreading of other people, and B, it's much more effective when you actually engage somebody on these things. You can learn a lot more about where they're coming from and it's a lot easier to get to a joint solution on things. I guess what I used to do is take that info and just do my thing, just take how I figured they were feeling or what direction I figured they were going in and then just acted on it. Now I try to involve people in things and try to make it a collaborative type of situation, so I put a lot more work into it now, so it's gotten better with age, but I also work on it a lot more

Speaker 3 (00:36:54):

And it becomes more of an active process as opposed to a kind of innate kind of thing. Yep.

Speaker 2 (00:37:00):

Yeah,

Speaker 3 (00:37:00):

That makes a lot of sense. I mean, I think like you said, but potentially you might be an outlier or someone that's gifted with a very intuitive communication skill. One thing I've noticed, I think maybe I've just become more aware of as I've got older, and then maybe because I became aware of it and other people I've then thought, oh, I don't want to do that because I don't like that when people I notice. It is a trait that I see in other people that I dont enjoy, which is that a conversation becomes just someone's chance to say their part as opposed to actually listening. So I'm sure everyone can be guilty of that. God knows I definitely will have been or will continue to be on some level, but it's just something that I've become, so when I say I've got better with age, I think it's just maybe I've become more aware of these things and had more life experience myself. So when someone talks about a situation or losing death or relationships, I can relate maybe on a kind of one-to-one level because now as someone who's had a few more years of experience to when I was in my twenties, I've kind of had that experience and can relate and therefore maybe put myself or I can empathize easier, I guess.

Speaker 2 (00:38:12):

Absolutely. And also when it's certain things, I could tell someone's not happy with the situation, say that you're tracking a band and you just know something's off, they're not happy about something. In the past, I'm talking about my early twenties, I would've sensed it and I would've been right, but I would've then just acted on it either badly or well, that depends, but

(00:38:41):

I would've just acted on it or I would've just assumed it's done for like they've decided they want to leave or just come to conclusions that you shouldn't come to. What I should have done is taking that intuition, okay, they're not happy, let's engage them and figure out why, and then try to fix that. The same thing applies in relationships with a significant other. I think that you can feel that someone's unhappy with something that happens in every relationship at some point. Now, are you going to take that cue and flip the fuck out and torpedo things or are you going to talk it out and keep things going? It's an important thing to not just take these cues but then know what to do with them afterwards. That's been the thing,

Speaker 3 (00:39:33):

And I think further on than that as well, the next part of that chain of thinking in my head is that it's taking action into how you respond to intuition that say that the room isn't happy, but then the next thing is how do you respond because I dunno about you, but in a studio sometimes things get tense and it's not often obvious why things are getting tense, but sometimes there's an environment where it could be that the major songwriter is a guitarist and the second guitarist is doing his parts and the songwriter is sitting there going, I'm not happy with how he's playing it. So there's all these micro tensions in the room and sometimes by again, and I'm not advocating this as a rule of thumb, but just in certain situations you can break that just by literally being an idiot or telling a joke or talking about a meme. You can break attention quite easily or you can address it head on and say, I'm sensing that people aren't unhappy. What's going on? Do you know what I mean? I think it's like you said, so beyond that kind of knowing that you are going to respond or kind of call it out is how you do it. I think there's so many ways to skin that cat as well.

Speaker 2 (00:40:55):

Yeah, you could just attack somebody on it or you could address them bluntly or you could change their state or you can figure out more clearly who the problem is coming from and deal with them only. There's so many different ways to go about it, and I think that actually how you do it is just as important as the fact that you're doing it.

Speaker 3 (00:41:21):

Yeah. I mean there's quite a few of these kind of microaggressions or micro tensions in a session that I will, my starting point is to deal with it with a bit of humor and then build from there because if nothing else, it changes my state because if something's kind of I'm sensing tension or someone may be distrust or some kind of objection to me or what I'm doing or something that someone's displeased, it's easy for my ego to take that as an attack and then for me to get defensive back and then we're in a kind of battle of defensiveness. So if I make a silly play it off and be silly, not only does that sometimes break the tension, but it also puts me, it changes my state into something that's like I've not tit for tatting them with aggression or defensive energy. I guess

Speaker 2 (00:42:16):

Getting our own ego out of the way is so crucial. Again, you asked about the getting better with age or you mentioned the getting better with age. That's also a big part of what has gotten better with age is I feel like at least for me, tell me if it's the same for you. The ego voice was a lot louder. It's not that it's not there now. I just have figured out how to defer. Its gratification.

Speaker 3 (00:42:42):

I like that.

Speaker 2 (00:42:43):

Rather than going for the kill immediately, like that tit for tat defensive thing, I'm going to satisfy my ego now by winning this battle. Boom, drop an atom bomb on this person's psyche and destroy it. Yeah, no, never. I don't do that shit anymore. Now I feel like the bigger ego gratification is by solving the problem and continuing a good thing, keep a good thing going and fixing whatever that is, but I think that initial super strong ego voice, the fight voice or whatever it is, that was a lot stronger when I was younger for sure. That's not to say I don't have it. I'm just able to control it better. I think that's maturity. What about you?

Speaker 3 (00:43:28):

Yeah, I'm sitting here trying to work out if I feel like that's how it is for me. I think, I suppose it's definitely something that I'm aware of and become more aware of. The distinction I make is that maybe when I was clapping back more younger as opposed to it being a real ego, it was maybe more an insecurity. If someone was kind of challenging my knowledge or authority in a situation, I would take that more as a, I would feel insecure about that and be defensive because I'm actually secretly insecure about do I have a right to have a place of authority in this session? Whereas now I probably have more of an ego in some ways because I think I've earned self-belief and I've earned trust in my resolve or trust in my opinion much more than I did when I was starting out.

Speaker 2 (00:44:16):

I would say you have a more secure ego, not bigger.

Speaker 3 (00:44:19):

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I think maybe it affects me less, but I still think if someone was to challenge me on my position of as a producer, you have to be a position of authority because if you don't, the sessions going nowhere before that would be masked with insecurity. I think now it is a genuine belief in myself, but then try not to come across like a dick because I always try and say to people, just because I have an opinion, it doesn't mean I'm right. You just have to try and balance it.

Speaker 2 (00:44:46):

That's a good way to put it. Hey everybody, if you're enjoying this podcast, then you should know that it's brought to you by URM Academy, URM Academy's mission is to create the next generation of audio professionals by giving them the inspiration and information to hone their craft and build a career doing what they love. You've probably heard me talk about Nail the Mix before, and if you're a member, you already know how amazing it is. The beginning of the month, nail the mix members, get the raw multitracks to a new song by artists like Lama, God Angels and Airwaves. Knock loose OPEC Shuga, bring me the Horizon. Gaira asking Alexandria Machine Head and Papa Roach among many, many others over 60 at this point. Then at the end of the month, the producer who mixed it comes on and does a live streaming walkthrough of exactly how they mix the song on the album and takes your questions live on air.

(00:45:39):

And these are guys like TLA Will Putney, Jens Borin, Dan Lancaster to I Mattson, Andrew Wade, and many, many more. You'll also get access to Mix Lab, which is our collection of dozens of bite-sized mixing tutorials that cover all the basics as well as Portfolio Builder, which is a library of pro quality multi-tracks cleared for use in your portfolio, so your career will never again be held back by the quality of your source material. For those of you who really want to step up their game, we have another membership tier called URM Enhance, which includes everything I already told you about and access to our massive library of fast tracks, which are deep, super detailed courses on intermediate and advanced topics like game staging, mastering low end and so forth. It's over 500 hours of content and man, let me tell you, this stuff is just insanely detailed and enhanced.

(00:46:33):

Members also get access to one-on-ones, which are basically office hour sessions with us and Mix Rescue, which is where we open up one of your mixes and fix it up and talk you through exactly what we're doing at every step. So if any of that sounds interesting to you, if you're ready to level up your mixing skills in your audio career, head over to URM Academy to find out more, how do you balance the idea of being the authority figure, which is really important. Actually, you're totally right that if there isn't a leader, everything goes to shit. I mean, that's what you're hired for and even if it's a band that just wants you to rerecord parts that they already totally wrote and just make them sound better, versus a band that wants you to help rewrite everything and be the sixth member or whatever, no matter what you're hired to do, no matter what the scope of the project is, you're being hired to be a leader and therefore they're giving you authority over the project and how you go about exercising that authority has a lot to do with how things are going to turn out, both in terms of your interpersonal relationship with these people and end product.

(00:47:51):

And so what I'm curious is how do you go about balancing being buddies with being the boss, understanding that ultimately they're the boss because paying still within the confines of the session itself, you're kind of the boss.

Speaker 3 (00:48:05):

Yeah. I make sure that that is implied or known to be frank. I think it's really important, and again, just basing off the time spent in the studio and learning that and having worked with bands that I feel intimidated by or feeling like secretly like, oh, am I good enough to have a position of authority in this session? This band is so good, or I feel like that I'm not worthy of taking control. So then you don't take control and you become a passive person and you're asking for forgiveness or asking to be told, and instantly in that role you can feel the band lose trust in you, and then they start maybe not being happy with what you are doing. So definitely over time I've learned that for me, it's better to just say to people, listen, you guys will always have the final say on things always, and if you tell me that you want to put a flounder over the whole mix, I'll tell you you're crazy, but I'll still do it.

(00:49:05):

If you're going to pay me to do it, I'll do it. But I always say to people, if I make a suggestion and it's kind of shot down without even it being discussed or tried, you are really wasting your money and your time working with me because the whole point that the fact that you are coming to me and not just doing it yourselves is the fact I've recorded a lot of songs and hopefully you are here because you've liked one of those previous recordings to kind of dismiss any ideas without trying, I think is a wasted opportunity. However, if you try it and tell me you think it's shit, I'm not going to be offended at that point, I'm going to just smile, say, cool, and then we move on and it's going to be like water off duck's back. But if you dismissively say no to something without even really hearing it through or listening to the point, then the chances of me kind of saying, oh, hang on a minute, you're here for a reason. That's more likely to happen,

Speaker 2 (00:50:03):

And I'm sure it goes both ways.

Speaker 3 (00:50:05):

Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (00:50:06):

Yeah. When they have an idea, I'm sure that you're going to at least try to hear them out

Speaker 3 (00:50:12):

100%. And also all the members as well, because I think that's another thing of earning trust as well, is I think it's easy, and I've listened to plenty of producers talk on this or engineers talk on this subject of it's pretty clear that there's always a hierarchy of dominance in a band, and I think the easiest thing to take as a producer that you're being ingratiated into this kind of new group very quickly and establishing yourself within hours of meeting these people is to side with the authority figure and work downwards. But what I've tried to do more is actually bring everyone else up to that level and try and reinforce the idea that everyone should have an equal voice, or if not equal, have a voice, have an opinion welcome. But the only kind of time that I think maybe that is limited is time.

(00:51:11):

If time becomes a factor and people get too kind of evolved and everyone's got an opinion on every vocal harmony, you're never going to finish things on time. So at that point, I'll say to people, listen, we are running low on time, so if people want to make a suggestion, I'm all ears. I'm totally open for it, but it has to be a hill you're willing to die on. If it's something that is just a throwaway idea, maybe if you're making a suggestion and throwing it in, just make sure it's something that you feel really strongly about if we are running low on time. But other than that, I kind of want to hear everyone's idea really.

Speaker 2 (00:51:43):

Yeah. Well, this is not something that musicians are known to be good at, which is staying on task and only focusing on the most important ideas. Their job is to be creative, so they're just going to throw things at you. You need to understand as a producer, in my opinion, which are the important things to focus on given the actual physical parameters of the session, that deadline for all intents and purposes of physical wall that you're going to hit, I mean, yeah, you can extend it sometimes, but it's pretty much like a physical wall. It's a bookend. Whatever happens has to happen before that, and it needs to happen well enough before that that you can do all the other things that matter as well before that wall, before you smack into it.

Speaker 4 (00:52:35):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:52:35):

Creativity, I have noticed, like intense creativity and the ability to understand time constraints don't always go hand in hand, and so that is part of your role as an authority is to understand how to manage that upcoming, that upcoming end to the activities with having people feel like their voices are being listened to, but also making sure that all the important stuff is happening. So at the end of the day, what they're actually there for, which is a finished piece of work happens that matters way more than their individual ideas along the way.

Speaker 3 (00:53:17):

I think what you've just said literally is the critical mass of recording a band for me personally, that you've literally just surmised for me exactly the job of a producer. Very, very articulated. Well, because

Speaker 2 (00:53:31):

Cool. Well, I'll send you an invoice after this.

Speaker 3 (00:53:34):

Yeah, I'll just sound clip that and yeah, just make a little sound clip of that, and then if anyone ever asks me what I do for a living and just play on that, and it's funny because how many conversations, I mean obviously not you because you have conversations, these conversations every day is what you do, but if you are talking to bands or bands, talking to bands, other artists, I think that what you've just surmised there is the critical mass of a producer is just, it's just not seen. I don't think bands on bands really understand or are cognizant of that kind of part of it. They think it's about microphones or I dunno, studios. You know what I'm saying?

Speaker 2 (00:54:14):

Absolutely. Dude, I can tell you this from the companies too, that when I have to deal with, which is all the time with producers and musicians, both at Riff Hard and URM,

Speaker 4 (00:54:27):

Which

Speaker 2 (00:54:27):

Is what we do. This is an actual issue we have to deal with all the time. We have to get these projects done. There's no way around that, and I've seen the same thing from this angle as well as when I was producing from that angle. I think that when you're in the position of being the creative person, your project management skills just aren't going to be as strong. Someone has to be the project manager. Someone has to be able to think, we got to stay on track. We can't be worried about this idea right now, and then also not do it in a way that alienates everybody

Speaker 3 (00:55:05):

And just sounds dismissive.

Speaker 2 (00:55:06):

Yeah, exactly. Which is tough, man. It's actually really, really tough. Sometimes those ideas are crucial. That's the thing that's scary about it, is you don't want to be tossing the really great ideas that are going to make the big difference. So you can't just approach it like you're a Terminator or something. Just stay on target. Stay on target. You cannot approach it like that. You actually do need to listen to these ideas because one of these ideas that might take you off track at first might solve a bunch of problems that are going to reveal themselves down the line, or might be the thing that makes it no longer a b plus, but a plus. There's ideas that are transformative, so you need to be ready to jump on those two. It's tough.

Speaker 3 (00:55:57):

Yeah, definitely. In those situations, one thing that I try and do is I think I'm pretty good at maybe visualizing or hearing the song in my head or playing an idea through. So if someone was to suggest something, sometimes I might just not give a response straight away and just play the idea in my head and go, that could be really cool actually. Yeah, let's give that a go. But even if I think that wouldn't work, I might be honest with a band and go, oh, I'm not actually sure on that, but hey, let's give it a go. Let's try it out and see what happens. And it is not uncommon for you to go, oh, do you know what? I wasn't sure on that, but hearing it now sounds amazing. Good shout. But like you said, it's also you're balancing that against, okay, we are running very low on time, so sometimes I'll kind of just mention that and say, I'm conscious that we're running long on time, but I'm might giving it a go. Or just addressing the fact that people are aware that every time a suggestion is made that there might be ramifications on deadlines or schedules.

Speaker 2 (00:56:54):

Yeah. What's funny is you say that they might be aware, but I think that sometimes you have to run with it even understanding that no matter how many times you say that they're not going to understand the deadline the way you do.

Speaker 3 (00:57:12):

Yeah. And I think certain artists and certain bands more than others as well, I think it's a sliding scale, isn't it? I think,

Speaker 2 (00:57:19):

Yeah, it's a sliding scale, but I think that there's convinced that this is wired into people's brains. The reason I say this, and I'm taking leaps is because I know that the part of your brain that is able to calculate long-term consequences is something that happens when you're about 25. That final part of your brain finally grows in, I guess

(00:57:47):

The younger you are, the less you're able to actually understand the true meaning of a long-term impact or a long-term consequence, which is why teenagers or people in their early twenties are when they think of, oh, that's not going to happen for 40 years. It's like, it's not even going to happen. I'll just do whatever I want. Now, they can't connect those two. They're physically unable. That part of their brain's not there yet. They can intellectually understand it, but whatever is beyond intellect, that actually makes you lock into an idea that's not there. And I have a feeling that for some people it's never totally there. And so as much as you say it, some people are just never going to actually feel the reality of those parameters. And I think that you need to understand that about them. You need to understand that I'm saying this lights are on, but nobody's home.

Speaker 5 (00:58:48):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:58:48):

I'm going to proceed with this understanding regardless of they understand it or not, because that's what they're paying me to do.

Speaker 3 (00:58:56):

Yeah, definitely. Something I hadn't maybe considered that how abstract the idea of deadlines are to maybe artists, but yeah, I think you're right. Thinking it through and listening to what you're saying and then thinking back to times where I've had to endlessly repeat something about deadlines, I think there's definite weight to it.

Speaker 2 (00:59:17):

Yeah. So think about how many times you've said things to somebody where it's almost as if you didn't even say it. It could be certain things like this is the plan, we're going to do this and this and this, and you're going to do these three things and I need them by this date or whatever. Or we got to get this done. The deadline is in 48 hours or two weeks or whatever it is. And you've discussed this multiple times and they've nodded and agreed, and then five minutes later as if you never even had that conversation, how many times has it happened because it's hundreds for me.

Speaker 3 (00:59:59):

Oh yeah. I mean so

Speaker 2 (01:00:00):

Much. Not thousands.

Speaker 3 (01:00:02):

And there's a few points I think that they happen time and time again in specific areas. So people providing stems. If you're just on a mixed project and at some point you're speaking with the artist or because again, over COVID, and I'm sure a lot of people listening and a lot of your other guests have been in a similar situation where a lot of it has been remote mixing where an artist is maybe working from home all themselves where they might have worked with other producers before. They're kind of working much more on their own now. And they book in with you say, Hey man, we want you to mix this song or whatever. And I was like, that's cool. And part of my booking process is this is the deadline that I need the stems by. It's an agreed thing before they put a deposit down on a day.

(01:00:43):

I'm like, I need you to understand that this is the day I need the stems. And I would say more than eight times out of 10, I guess there's always a bit of a delay. They're always like, ah, we're running a bit behind. Or I'll say to them, oh, I've got the stems. And they'll go, oh yeah. Oh yeah, yeah. You said you needed them by this day, didn't you? So yeah, that's a very common one. So yeah, you're right. I think maybe you can say it till the cows come home, but the artistic side takes over, I guess.

Speaker 2 (01:01:14):

Yeah, exactly. But you need to proceed anyways as if you can't let that take you off track, I guess is what I'm saying.

Speaker 3 (01:01:24):

Yeah. And again, I think sometimes it's just they're the times that maybe do call for more of a blunt conversation I've found, or at least that's how I tend to deal with it in those situations where there was some kind of agreement on timing of something and then for whatever reason it's not happened, that's be the time. I might then turn around and say, oh, this is what we agreed and you can see that we agreed it here in that confirmation email that I send. So just to let you know that's what we agreed on and then that needs to happen.

Speaker 2 (01:01:55):

Man, I've noticed that even then some people just don't get it. It's pretty hilarious. Switching topics, something I wanted to talk to you about that comes up a lot actually in the URM group. People ask this question a, a unique thing about you is that you were most focused on making a career doing what you loved in music rather than trying to spread yourself over multiple disciplines. So you specialized early. And what do you think people miss about not throwing their whole selves into an art form or what would they gain by throwing themselves into an art form versus not specializing? Just being a general recording engineer for instance?

Speaker 3 (01:02:45):

I mean, I think the wider thing of throwing yourself into it is, I will just say that I think that is probably the most important thing that I've found for me, that in any of this, and I'm kind of conscious that I don't want to come across, I've got all the answers because spoken to many people and I've listened to many of your podcasts with people far more successful and knowledgeable on this than I, but having my small window of experience, the idea of not having a plan B has been a big thing for me.

(01:03:21):

This idea that a safety net, I don't think it helps a lot of the time. I think actually just committing to something is huge and saying to yourself, I'm not going to die if I fail, but if I keep something back as a kind of, oh, well, I'll just study this just in case, or I'll just get a job. That kind of mentality, I think it is getting out of your comfort zone and pushing yourself is such a big part of getting that kind of initial jump into this as a career. But then beyond that into specialization, I think again speaking just from my experience and my opinion on this is that I can only do this job takes so much time out of my life. It is what I do. So the idea of not being passionate about it seems completely foreign to me. So I can only work on projects that I really actually give a shit about. And if I know that I don't give a shit going in, I'll have to get out of that project as quickly as possible or turn it down because I just don't think it's possible to prolong periods of time, do this without loving it.

Speaker 2 (01:04:30):

It's an interesting topic because in some ways specialization is going to make your life tougher

Speaker 5 (01:04:38):

In

Speaker 2 (01:04:38):

Some ways, but in other ways it's the way and the light. So for instance, if someone knows that they want to be the best extreme metal producer in the world, they have no interest in other stuff. Like they want to do the most brutal death metal in black metal bands, and that is what they want to be known for. Maybe learning how to mix country can somehow help, but it really is the best idea in my opinion, to, while you're trying to get as badass as possible in general, you need to throw yourself into that. You really need to throw yourself into that and live, breathe, eat shit, bleed those genres

Speaker 3 (01:05:26):

A hundred percent. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:05:28):

If that's not what you want though, if you just want to be a recording engineer or a producer, it doesn't matter or what genre or there's a certain direction you want to do heavy music, but you don't care what kind of heavy music that's just you're oriented towards heavy music. So it doesn't matter if it's pop punk or death metal or radio rock or what, it could even be country with distorted guitars. As long as it's kind of heavy to your bag, that's cool too. I think the key is to understand what it is that turns you on about music. And that's not to say that you shouldn't learn other things, of course you should, but there is only so much time on earth to do things, and the thing that gets you the most energized is the thing that you're going to spend the most time on. And those are the things that we should try to be aware of and go towards because if we're not going towards the things that energize us, we're going to be competing against people who are, and good luck to anyone who's trying to compete with people who are willing to work 18 hours a day and love it.

Speaker 3 (01:06:39):

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:06:41):

If they're not,

Speaker 3 (01:06:42):

Yeah, I mean, I think locking yourself in on a genre, I mean, it's definitely never something that I even really thought about. So it seems slightly foreign the concept to me that being like, this is what I want to do, but I totally respect people there. I realize there are people out there who are solely do one genre and they do very well at it. I've actually always kind of tried to do the opposite, I suppose, to some degree. I mean, I've never recorded opera, so I mean I haven't been that varied, but I've definitely try and switch things up and now and where possible I'll try and not do two genres of the same thing back to back. But even so, yeah, I think the reason I do that is because I'm passionate about making music or making music that kind of comes from maybe an emotional place. So that for me is my passion is that I want to work with music or work on projects that feel they have a kind of emotional resonance to it. So that could be a ballad

Speaker 5 (01:07:41):

That

Speaker 3 (01:07:42):

Feels heartbreaking. I will get the same joy or passion for my job doing that as doing something that's just so disgustingly heavy that it makes you want to punch something. But it is genuine how some bands sound real when they're screaming and heavy and some bands.

(01:08:02):

And I think that comes down to the reality of the intention and especially in the vocal. So that for me is my passion. So that's what I'm always hunting for ultimately, I think is to work with bands that have the music means something to them. So yeah, I think if I turn down projects like all genres that I feel like I'm not skilled in because for exactly the reason you say, because if someone came to me and said, we want to make do a kind of hip hop song or something, I'll have a stab at it, but there's people out there that are going to be way more talented than I because they've put 15 years into learning that genre and perfecting that craft than I've been doing with drums and guitars. So I think it's also knowing when to be honest with people I think and say no.

Speaker 2 (01:08:55):

Yeah, it's interesting because there's always something to be learned from stepping outside your comfort zone, but when you're doing this for a living, you have to recognize that you are taking people's money and you need to be upfront with them about whether or not you feel you're the person for it. They might see something in you that you don't understand and they might insist. I do think it's important to be honest. If you don't feel you're the right person for it, just say it.

Speaker 3 (01:09:25):

Yeah, and I think as well recently, I suppose in the last few years, I think I've learn the ability to say no more and on projects where either for financial reasons or for, I think sometimes some people kind of approach me because they want me to do it for geographical reasons or logistical reasons. They're based in the same area as me, therefore that's who you want to work with. And it's strange because in that situation, very often I'm definitely not the right person for that job because I predominantly work in certain genres in certain fields and kind of feel like my knowledge is predicated on certain things. And if a band come to me and they just want to bang out some songs quickly and economically and they're approaching me just because geographically I'm closest to them or whatever, they like the look of a piece of equipment I've got, I'm quite comfortable now of just saying, oh, I don't think I'm the right fit for you, but here are some other people that may be a better fit.

(01:10:31):

But it's taken some time to be able to understand that because the reason I do that is firstly for them because they're not spending money that they don't have to spend. But it's also for me, because like you'd said, this job takes up, it's a lot of hours, and I've just really appreciate the idea that I don't want to get to a certain point in doing this job and lose the love for it because I'm working on things that are killing me or crushing me. So I only want to do stuff that I care about.

Speaker 2 (01:11:00):

The thing is though, I need to just make this statement for nail the mix students. I just had to get this off my chest. There are some nail the mix students who will only work on the months that they like the artist, and I think that's dumb. You should work on every single one of 'em. Exactly. Because you are a student and while you're a student, you should be trying to get as good as possible and learn as many different things as possible. But we're talking about here as specifically in a professional situation where people are paying you their money in exchange for your time and skills. That's different. That's very, very different.

Speaker 3 (01:11:41):

Yeah. Yeah. I'm saying this in a position that I'm in now, which is that I've had my own brick and mortar studio for 14 years and worked in another studio before that. But the first studio I worked in, I literally, I always make this joke, but I probably recorded someone singing a cover of the song my way about 15 times in six months. And it was hilarious to me that they were all singing my way, but I didn't want to do that song. There was so much stuff. I was doing all sorts of things that it wouldn't have been my taste, but I was just enjoying learning. And I've certainly done plenty of projects that wouldn't have been my first choice, but I got so much from it. But I'm saying now that I choose to kind of focus on the thing purely because I've already put in a decade and a half into this already that I've maybe earned or found myself in a luxury position that I have some degree of choice in that, but it's definitely not a given.

(01:12:37):

And yeah, I mean there was nothing. Now the mix when I was starting, I'm so jealous of people that are starting now with the me unbelievable resources, and there was a song, the production has Driven Me Crazy for maybe a decade or however long. I remember hearing this song and listening to the drums, and it drove me crazy because I was like, I know what sample sound like on drums, and I know what live drums sound like, and it doesn't sound like either. It's got such a unique sound. And you did the unboxing video on that and it was redneck by Lamb of God.

Speaker 2 (01:13:11):

Oh, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:13:12):

And it was joyous for me watching that video or that you did because it was like, oh, I get to see behind the curtain of like, oh, and this is how they tracked that. And this is how Chris Hadler tracked his hand separately and the shell separately. And that's why it sounds the way it does, because it's not a sample. It is a live snare drum, but it's just got no bleed. And that resource to me coming up in a time where there was no internet, or if there was internet, it was emails, and to have this now it's like, it's unbelievable. So it's just unbelievable resource and I think the resources you are giving new engineers is honestly incredible. It really is. And even people that have done it for a few years like me, I'm still blown away with some of the content you've put out like that, so it's very cool. Well,

Speaker 2 (01:13:56):

Thank you. I was blown away when I did that unboxing. I remember that one specifically because how those drums were created has actually been a mystery in the metal community forever. The Lamb of God, drums on those records was always a topic of conversation and intrigue, I think, for everybody in heavy music. And so to get to go through that was I think just as cool for me as it was for you to watch it. It was revelatory and it made perfect sense too. I think that that's part of what's cool about it also is one thing I've heard is lots of people will watch it and say, oh, okay, that's what I thought. It's good to get some confirmation that my instincts are correct on something or this is what I was already doing, so I just had to do it better. And I think that that's really, really valuable. Whereas I think when you and I were starting, there was nothing like that. So we didn't know if we were doing something correctly, doing something incorrectly. If it was we just needed to get better at it, or if it was just a really stupid approach to something, I think people don't need to wonder about that

Speaker 3 (01:15:16):

Anymore,

Speaker 2 (01:15:17):

Which is crazy. I can't imagine growing up with that.

Speaker 3 (01:15:20):

I mean, unbelievable. I remember because I reckon I was probably in a good four years, maybe not kind of doing it full time professionally, but four years into recording bands who were paying me something to do it before I even knew what drum samples were, genuinely didn't know, didn't realize they were a thing. And I was in a band and I used to, I suppose how I kind of did a lot of my early recording before I was charging bands, I would record just my own band. I'm sure lots of people do, and I didn't know drum samples were a thing because like you said, these resources just weren't there. And certainly in that period, drum samples were always a bit of a kind of behind the curtain thing that no one really liked to talk about. Anyway, so the drummer in my band, I just punished him on his kick drum.

(01:16:06):

I'd be like, no, you're hitting it too soft. Listen to this record. It doesn't sound the same as when you play it. And he ended up having one of the most unreal feet because we didn't realize that with the records we grew up listening to and loving, which were the fat, the fat records, skate punk stuff where it's like a kick sample doing those really super fast double kicks. He just learned to play that for real just by absolutely hammering his foot because we didn't realize that there was another option. So it was a constant, I think probably in the era that we come up doing it, you learn to do something and then you figure out that's not how it's done, and then you relearn. And whereas I think people that are coming up now are just bypassing so much of that trial and error because it's like, oh, this is kind of actually what you're supposed to do. And you're like, oh, okay, cool. That makes much more sense than my crazy idea that I've kind of tried to do to make it work.

Speaker 2 (01:16:55):

Yeah. It's interesting though because sometimes though, when you imagine what someone might be doing and you're wrong, you might come up with something kind of breakthrough

Speaker 4 (01:17:07):

Trying

Speaker 2 (01:17:07):

To figure it out, which is kind of what you were describing. I also think that lots of the amazing drummers that exist now, the ones that are I guess above a certain age who came up in the mid two thousands or were learning in the mid two thousands, they didn't know that things were edited or double kicks were drawn in. They just figured people played like that. And so they rose to the challenge and played some inhuman things, therefore raised the bar on what was possible.

Speaker 3 (01:17:37):

And I think the same with, there's a few singer I work with, actually, I'll give a shout out to one of them. There's band called Yuewen, again, gravity who this band from the UK that just absolutely ridiculous. But the singer sometimes I've done a mix of them and he sent a note back saying like, oh, just going to hear the tuning a little bit on this one note. And I'm like, there's no tuning. He can sing. It's tuned. It literally, he can sing a note. So the way it climbs from one note to another or kind of moves from one note to another, his vocally is so accurate. And I put that down to probably him growing up in a time where vocalists were being tuned a bit harder, and he's literally learned to sing like that. So it is unbelievable accuracy. It no vibrato. It's crazy.

Speaker 2 (01:18:22):

It's funny you bring that up because man, there have been vocals that we've had on Nail the Mix where the producer swore the shit wasn't tuned, and it sounds tuned and people thought it was tuned, but I know that the producer was telling the truth because I've recorded vocalists that sound like they have tuning on because they're just, they emulated that sound. They grew up hearing that, and they sound tuned. They sound like they have autotune, like that specific autotune sound, their voice sounds like it has. It's a crazy thing, but it's real. It's definitely real.

Speaker 3 (01:19:04):

Yeah, this is it a hundred percent. And this is what I have with that. I had more than on one occasion with this one singer. I mean, he is unbelievably talented, his vocal arrangements and stuff musically, it sounds a bit like a cross between deaf tones and periphery and then the math rock scene of the BS m bands that I came up working on. So it's just a real interesting mix. But he sings these incredible vocal arrangements. He writes these four part harmonies, but his voice is so accurate that even he sometimes thinks that I've tuned it. I'm like, I haven't mean, obviously sometimes I have tuned it, but there's been numerous times where he's literally as a mix note said, oh, can you just dial back the tuning on that note? And I'm like, there is none on that note, that's just how you performed it on the day.

(01:19:50):

So it is definitely possible. And I think the same with drum samples and like you said, drum editing and stuff. Obviously I'm sure we're all familiar with certain drummers out there who are always at the middle of controversies over is something edited is not, is it triggered or not all of this kind of stuff. It's fascinating to see that drummers have now learned to literally sound like drum samples edited, grid edited and with samples, and that's just what they sound like. They've learn to emulate that with their hands. I mean, that is the human why human beings are amazing though, isn't it, that we can learn and evolve to do things like this so quickly. Unbelievable 20 years really, isn't it? 30 years tops that these things have been around,

Speaker 2 (01:20:33):

But it makes sense. We're able to emulate and innovate cool about us. It is kind of unbelievable though, when you hear something that in years prior would've definitely been samples or tuning, but now people have just gotten that good. It's pretty awesome.

Speaker 3 (01:20:54):

Yeah, it's amazing. It's amazing. And I often wonder with certain people, is it because it was the same as it was with me? I mean, obviously I don't really play drums. It was more me just punishing a drummer as opposed to me learning the skill. But we literally didn't know that drum samples existed. So when we listened to, like I said, the fat record stuff like lag wagon and nerve effects strung out bounds like that, and they're doing these super fast, the skate punk speed stuff where it's got this double single, double single double kick pattern, and it's clearly a drum sample. You can hear it now, but at the time, I didn't know that was a thing. So when he did it, I could hear the weakness of the second hit on the double, whether it was done with a single pedal. And I would say to Mo, it doesn't sound right. You need to learn how to do that. So I just would punish him and he learned to do it just because we didn't know. And I think that's probably just that similar thing with drummers now and vocalists now, they maybe don't know that what autotune or pitch correction is, therefore they just think that's how you sing, and they modulate their vocal to do that. It is amazing.

Speaker 2 (01:22:01):

Yeah, absolutely. So I'm going to have to wrap this up now, but before we take off, I just have one question left for you.

Speaker 4 (01:22:12):

Okay. You're

Speaker 2 (01:22:13):

Talking about the UK production trend right now of having a really smooth and dark top end compared to the brightness of a lot of American productions. And I'm just curious what you attribute this regional preference for or to

Speaker 3 (01:22:30):

Partially historic. I think there's kind of stories of when vinyl was being cut in the seventies and stuff that people in the London studios would get the American records and couldn't work out why the American records were perceived louder than the British stuff. And that's generally because American stuff has traditionally a bit more of a tighter bottom end and just a bit more extended top end. But obviously when you have a more pronounced upper mids, and that's where the perceived volume comes from, and obviously the less low end you have on something, there's more headroom, you can actually push things louder. So I think there's that kind of historical thing as well. So I think it's always been there to some degree. I think to me, there's always been a distinction between an American sounding record and a British sounding one. I mean, obviously you do get kind of outliers and people in the UK who make more American signing records and people in the states who make more British signing records.

(01:23:30):

But as I think as a gross generalization, that's a thing. But then I think also it then becomes trends inside of that. I think digital has got a lot better, and I think a lot of that harshness that maybe, to be honest, I probably grew up listening to, because that was, I was probably listening to music that was transitioning from tape to digital, and at that time people were overcooking the top end because that's how you had to capture stuff to tape. You had to push the top end in a little bit on the way in to make sure it comes back sounding bright and not dead, and people were doing that to digital. And then just ending up with these super brittle sounding records and combine that with quite low quality digital and not particularly good conversion stuff. So I think music generally in the nineties and early noughties probably was a little bit on the harsh side.

(01:24:21):

So I think that's another factor. And I also think the ending of the loudness war is probably another factor as well as to why the more smoother, fatter, or rounder and warmer sounding records are probably becoming more popular again, because again, it's like everyone's race to make everything the loudest. It's not there as much or it's unnecessary or it's obsolete because you can make the loudest master in the world. It's only just going to get turned down when you listen to it on Spotify now. So I think people are focused more on making pleasant sounding records as opposed to loud aggressive ones.

Speaker 2 (01:24:58):

Yeah, I think that's a great explanation. Thank you. Well, Oz Craigs, I want to thank you for coming on the URM podcast. It's been a pleasure to you. I'm really glad we got to do this. Thanks

Speaker 3 (01:25:11):

Very much, as I said, a real honor to be here. And I think the resources you guys are giving people is phenomenal. So thanks to you guys for just providing such an amazing resource for everybody and including myself, as I said. Thanks for having me, A real honor to be asked.

Speaker 2 (01:25:28):

It was a pleasure, sir. Alright, then another URM podcast episode in the bag. Please remember to share our episodes with your friends as well as post them to your Facebook and Instagram or any social media you use. Please tag me at al Levi URM audio at URM Academy, and of course, tag our guest as well. I mean, they really do appreciate it. In addition, do you have any questions for me about anything? Email them to me at al at URM Academy. That's EY at M dot aca DY. And use the subject line, answer me a. Alright then. Till next time, happy mixing.

Speaker 1 (01:26:09):

You've been listening to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast. To ask us questions, make suggestions and interact, visit urm.academy and press the podcast link today.