NICK MORZOV: Pricing Your Services, The Obsessive Mindset, and Lying to Get a Gig

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

Welcome to the URM Podcast. Our guest today is Mr. Nick Morzov, who is a sick mixer producer engineer. He's been on Nail the Mix. He did Animals As Leaders Nail the Mix, and he is actually best known for his work with Animals as Leaders and Blink 180 2 among many, many others. He's really, really sick, man.

Speaker 2 (00:00:31):

Oh, he is a great guy too. A lot of fun to hang out with.

Speaker 1 (00:00:37):

One of the good ones for those of you who get to the end of the episode and are like, wow, I want more. Just know there's actually a second part to this coming out very, very soon, immediately. So stay tuned for part two if you want more Nick Morris off. Alright, here we go. Nick Morzov, welcome to the URM podcast. Thanks for having me. Thanks for being here. I want to open this with something I read on your sound better.com profile. What was that? Which I think is really amazing. So I'm going to read it. I'm expensive so you can sound expensive. I can make you sound like two angels sharing a dildo. My favorite genre is metal, but I'm equally good at mixing hip hop and pop click contact above to get in touch, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I thought, first of all, it made me laugh when I read it, but I really like, funny aside, I really like I'm expensive so you can sound expensive. That whole idea of knowing your worth and putting it out there that I think is really refreshing just because so many producers and creative people feel so uncomfortable about charging for their work. That's such a weird topic for such a long time for so many people. Just when money comes up, how do you go about it? And so just seeing someone that I realize that this is kind of humorous, but I just really appreciate you putting yourself out there like that.

Speaker 3 (00:02:31):

Yeah, I mean it's always kind of been a weird topic when it comes to production and even engineering. How do I ask these guys, Hey, we've had a lot of fun making this record, or we're going to have a lot of fun making this record, but now it's time to pay up. And if you give them a little bit of a heads up like, Hey, I am going to talk about money at some point, and if you keep it a little more lighthearted, it kind of to me makes it a little easier to bring that part up too because a serious conversation, and it doesn't have to be, at least in my opinion all the time, it doesn't have to be uncomfortable. Yeah, exactly. It doesn't have to be uncomfortable.

Speaker 1 (00:03:17):

How did you figure out what to charge?

Speaker 3 (00:03:23):

What my bills dictated? Good answer. I mean, if I could do this for free forever, I would and work on things that I believe deserves it, but I live in the real world, all the rest of us, and I got to charge money and I got to make sure that things get covered. Specifically my time I think is if I don't get enough or don't ask for enough of a rate ahead of time, I end up subconsciously maybe not really giving shit as much about the project. And that's one of the things I say too. That's a funny quote on my sound better, but I do kind of say, Hey, I could give you a deal, but at the end of the day you kind of have to pay me enough for me to give a shit.

Speaker 1 (00:04:15):

I understand. And I think that some people might be thinking it's not about the money, isn't it just about art? But when you factor in time and the fact that you live in the real world and that the name of the game, this job is taking on somebody else's art as your own and inhabiting that space and basically giving away portions of your life that you'll never get back to care about their art. There has to be, it has to feel

Speaker 3 (00:04:52):

Worth it. It really does. It really does. Otherwise you're going to start resenting each other and then you don't make good art if everyone's pissed off at each other. At least not in my camp. I know some people thrive off of the negativity or whatever, but I have to be happy and I want to make sure that if I'm happy the band or artist I'm working with is also of the same mindset. And the best way to do that is to make sure everyone's kind of squared up.

Speaker 1 (00:05:21):

And if you're squared up when it comes time to go that extra mile to deal with the unforeseen or the extension or whatever that might come up, someone who feels taken care of is going to be much more willing to extend themselves than someone who feels like they're getting dragged.

Speaker 3 (00:05:49):

And it's not like I'm asking for, I'm saying I'm expensive, I want to make you sound expensive kind of thing. But I'm actually fairly reasonable when it comes to pricing. It's more so I made that when I was recording a bunch of local bands that expected like $200 per whole production like mix and master included, plus my time recording it and editing their terrible performances.

Speaker 1 (00:06:14):

I figured this was from that era, a holdover from that era. Just because I doubt that too much of your work comes in through sound better at this point.

Speaker 3 (00:06:24):

No, none of it does. Yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:06:27):

Figured, yeah. I figured that this was something from the local band years. Yeah, but still that's actually why I wanted to point it out because so many of our listeners are at that stage and aren't sure how to price themselves or how to put themselves out there in a way that people will respect. So what I'm wondering though is yeah, your bills had to dictate it, but also people had to agree to it. So how did you gauge the line between what you need versus what people will agree to?

Speaker 3 (00:07:06):

I think a lot of that comes down to time. So if my time is spread thin and I have so much work that I was getting to the point where I had so much work that I had to start saying no to stuff, it was time to start upping that rate and testing what kind of things people would be comfortable with. General negotiations of things like if I shot high on a project that was more solicited, like a label funded gig or somebody with little deeper pockets that I knew had deeper pockets, I just see where they were. But I think it really came down to, it wasn't so much about necessarily credits, it was a bit more about just if I was in demand I could feel it and that's where I started charging more. But it's an interesting thing to say, charge what you're worth and are people willing to pay that because for the longest time I was in the position on the other side of this, when I'd be listening to these podcasts, I'd be watching something like nail the mix as a beginner even.

(00:08:20):

And one of the things that I discovered along at least my path was there is a bit of a kind gray area where when you're first starting out, you, and I'm sure you guys have done this too, you kind of took on a bunch of shit for free or really cheap just to get your name out there. And that is kind of important if you're not going to intern for a major recording studio or a big producer or anything like that, you basically have to intern for yourself. And I think a lot of people just think that they're just going to get into a studio and people are just going to pay him to do shit or the opposite. Love

Speaker 2 (00:08:59):

That quote. That's an amazing quote. You need to intern for yourself. That's one of the best quotes I feel like I've ever heard. Steal

Speaker 3 (00:09:05):

It. Yeah, steal it, steal it.

Speaker 2 (00:09:08):

I will quote you on Instagram later today.

Speaker 1 (00:09:11):

Yeah, I actually played that back in my head right after he said it and I was like, wow. Well,

Speaker 3 (00:09:16):

When Joel said quotes me on his Instagram, I'm going to up my rate after that one.

Speaker 1 (00:09:21):

Yeah. The thing about charge what you're worth or know your worth, that's a dangerous thing to tell people at the beginning because they might get a false sense of their worth. And that's why I'm asking how did you know when was a good time? Because knowing what you're worth, it doesn't mean knowing what you think you're worth. It's knowing what the market thinks you're worth and then going with that. So you have to know how to properly interpret the market.

Speaker 3 (00:10:01):

Yeah, I guess for me a pivotal moment was definitely I, Javi and I, Javier and I are pretty good friends. Shout

Speaker 1 (00:10:10):

Out Reyes.

Speaker 3 (00:10:12):

Yeah, Javier, he's going to hear this later. We didn't invite him though. Sorry, bud.

Speaker 1 (00:10:17):

Sorry. Hey Javier. There's an open invite for you to come on the riff Hard podcast, by the way. We still haven't done it. Oh, called out Anytime.

Speaker 3 (00:10:33):

Yeah. So I met him through a mutual friend back in the day and I was just working again. I was working for free for him specifically, not even intentionally working for free, we were just working on a bunch of stuff together and he brought some gear over. I met Toin and it was the moment of we were working on something that had nothing to do with animals leaders, it was just random. We were songwriting or something. And he was like, Hey man, you're confirmed to do the Next Animals album. And I was like, yeah, sure, I'll do it. And then I thought, we're good friends, we're close enough. I could have a really open candid conversation of how much do you guys think I'm, what should I charge? And so that was a realistic, because you don't really get that answer a lot from a lot of people.

(00:11:29):

Most people are trying to negotiate with you or some people are fucked up in the world and they want to neg you down, make you feel like you're not worth something. And some people overhype, but they're just broke. There's lots of those types of things. But this was a real honest conversation about how much I should start charging for what I do. And I was like, wow, that's a bit more than I thought I should charge for this. And then I just started putting the feelers out there with the next gig, how much should I charge for this next one? And you don't want to scare people away, but you also don't want to seem like you just write out the gates, ask for something way too small. Then people will just assume that's your rate and then expect that of you.

Speaker 2 (00:12:14):

I made that mistake too many times in my career. I'm very nice about money. I'm like, oh, I'm negotiable. And then the people that are sharks are just attack and then you're like, oh crap. But I'm always surprised sometimes when you ask for what you want, people are like, cool, and you're like, damnit, I could have asked for more.

Speaker 3 (00:12:30):

I actually got really lucky on this one gig. It was with this dj, I guess I probably shouldn't say just, it is not nice of me to talk about it like that, but he did ask for how much it would cost me to do vocal production and before I could answer, he was like 2 75 an hour. I was like, yeah, that's how much that costs. So he did it to himself that time, but most of the time it's always the, I guess it's kind of the that's

Speaker 1 (00:13:00):

On him.

Speaker 3 (00:13:01):

That's

Speaker 2 (00:13:01):

On him.

Speaker 3 (00:13:02):

And we worked for days

Speaker 2 (00:13:04):

Maybe it thought he was getting a deal too.

Speaker 3 (00:13:06):

Yeah, I mean, but that much money coming through and my mindset changed. I wasn't like, I'm going to take this guy for all his money. I was like, holy fuck, that is a lot of money per hour. I have to kill it for this guy. And so I really went in whatever he needed. I would make sure to make him sound great vocally coach him if we needed a vocal coach. I even hired someone I knew from MI that's like, she's great. And she came and vocally coached him. I think he sings on all this stuff now because of that, but maybe that's what he was paying for. He's paying for the experience too, but I just paying for

Speaker 1 (00:13:44):

The four seasons of

Speaker 3 (00:13:47):

A

Speaker 1 (00:13:47):

Studio service basically

Speaker 3 (00:13:48):

In my dive bar of a studio. But yeah, he was a good dude. I don't want to oust him like that. Then people think that they can do that to him and it was a good time and he was really generous.

Speaker 2 (00:14:03):

Some artists will definitely, if they think you're going to kill it for them, they will pay you more and tip you and just give you whatever you want because there are people out there that have money and they know what they want. They don't want to screw around. They want you to feel as good as you possibly can while you working. And I mean I love working with artists like that because you actually feel important and they respect and they value you and they're not coming in well, well, I'll give you a third of your rate and you're like, you just feel so abused in those situations and when you get the opposite of that, it's just you really want to go the extra, not mild, but 10 for those types of people.

Speaker 1 (00:14:40):

We hired somebody a long time ago for something, I don't remember what, but it was that for a service. I don't remember if it was to write a piece of music that we were going to use in a fast track or edit a video or something and one time thing and we asked what they charged or what they would charge and it was so low. It was crazy low for how good they were. So we actually offered them twice because it was, I mean, always cool to get a deal. We have to watch the bottom line, but when someone is asking for that low for what they're doing, I start to wonder, does that mean they're going to be checked out or why are they, this doesn't feel right, something isn't right here and they do good work, but we're asking too much for what they're going to be getting and this isn't going to go well.

Speaker 3 (00:15:57):

Yeah, you can kind of feel it like when you either offer someone, not offer, but you pay someone for a service, you can kind of feel the love they put into something based on how much you're paying or if they feel like it's justified and you really do want to, I don't know mean, right. You got to watch the bottom line. And as a business owner now obviously studio vibes and songwriting, you kind of have to bide where money goes and if they're doing something that's valuable, sometimes people take advantage of that too. Not everyone's got the whole I want to do right by the world mentality. They're just trying to get paid and it's tough to sift through that as well. Coming from someone who has paid people for work as well, I'm not saying come out the gates super hot and I'm good at what I do and I know I'm good at what I do, so I'm going to charge this much money. But then also, again, don't undersell yourself either. It's a sticky one, I guess.

Speaker 1 (00:17:04):

It is. It is. But that's why I wanted to point out that I really respect the way you put that out there. Thank you. Just because it is such a sticky one to just state it upfront, I charged this much because you get this much out of it if you can back it up, which obviously you could then sick, right? I'm not sure if I could at the time I wrote that. Well, it's always a process. Somebody thought you could,

Speaker 3 (00:17:46):

A few people did at this point. Yeah, I guess, yeah, sometimes it is a confidence thing, but I also knew in the back of my mind, I'm up late at night reading up on how people have done things. When I first started working at Travis's, I, what's the dude who did all their production? Funny. I just looked this guy up and I don't remember his name. Jerry Finn, right? Jerry Finn, yeah, Jerry Finn, yes. So I was obsessed with Jerry Finn and whenever I'd go home at Travis's, because he's in Blink and we obviously were working on that album at the time, I went above and beyond on my own volition. It had nothing to do with getting paid, had nothing to do with anything besides, I do that with projects and I do that with my time. And so when I wrote that sound better, I dunno, whatever profile bio, I was like, I know that I'm going to get better at this because I do these types of things to be better. And that's also I think another thing, I've met a bunch of people, a bunch of engineers and a bunch of producers in just my time doing this and they, some of 'em do have a false sense of, I wouldn't call it entitlement, but ability and they don't really do anything to develop it very much.

Speaker 1 (00:19:11):

Commitment levels are weak, I think. Go ahead Joel. I'll save my thought. What were you saying?

Speaker 2 (00:19:17):

I was going to say, you know what stuck out to me, Nick when I met you in January at Nam is you're the guy and I call you the guy in LA who cares. We had a really good conversation about effort on records and how much, because when I mix a song, I feel like I put, I don't just mix the damn song. It's not a gig for me. For me, this is a part of my being. Even if I hate the band and the song, I will find something to latch onto and I feel like I put so much passion into that and just talking to you for more than 30 seconds. I can see that, and you just had this fire about you and the way that you approach things, and I'll never forget it. It just really stuck out. It's just a very different conversation than I have every day.

Speaker 1 (00:19:55):

Yeah, I noticed when we did that nail the mix, it was super, super obvious. I think maybe it's that word called grit or whatever, but I think it's actually obsession and I see this with the great musicians I know or people who have done amazing things in their lives. I think that it's this obsession that people get for that thing that they do that is totally, it's a totally authentic thing. Their brain doesn't do things casually. I think that's the big part of it. They can't just clock in, clock out. It's either it's like an all in thing or a not very end thing. So the only thing that works for them is to go all in. It's a personality type and it's a really, really important one to have if you want to go far in something like music, I think because that's kind of what it requires.

(00:21:06):

And then when people see that in somebody else, they immediately notice it. But I have definitely seen a lot of people in music who have a lot of talent and some work ethic, but don't go there with the obsession. And you could go pretty far in music just by being cool, having some talent and some work ethic. But all the killers I know, they all the top tier, and I don't mean necessarily have sold the most records. Some people could be top tier at their instrument, but play Prague or something and it's not going to be as big as Blink, but I just mean that top tier of achievement in terms of ability though they all have that obsession. That's just it. I think

Speaker 3 (00:22:02):

You can learn it too. When I was younger, that's a tough question. I feel like when I was younger I did kind of have it, but I didn't really put in the time or I didn't know how to manage my time well enough or that I needed to obsess on anything.

Speaker 1 (00:22:23):

But you just said that you already had the raw goods.

Speaker 3 (00:22:28):

Yeah, the itch I guess. Yeah. Yeah. I still want to diminish the idea that somebody could possibly get into this that doesn't quite have that yet because I feel like

Speaker 1 (00:22:38):

That's why I said I think lots of people do fine in music without it. So I wanted to say that for people listening who are kind of more of a nine to five or are more casual, people are not just fucking psychos. There's room for them in the industry too. I have just noticed though, the Jason Richardsons of the world, the Josh Wilber's of the world, all fucking psychos about things, that is how they operate.

Speaker 3 (00:23:13):

You kind of have to be a little out of your mind to want to put this much time. It is something, especially in an industry that doesn't have a lot of stuff to give back, but as you kind of want to touch on that, the obsessive nature, I feel like in any field you kind of need that. The people who really rip the hardest at you could be sales for wherever some random insurance company. That dude has to love insurance or love sales, and he's got to have the thing that makes him want to push way harder than everybody else. And I think that person's going to do well in that industry. And so I don't think it really applies to just music. I think it's everywhere.

Speaker 1 (00:23:59):

I saw that. You're totally right, dude. One of my first jobs ever when I was 18 only lasted six weeks. I went and I tele marketed. Oh yeah, it didn't You were a telemarketer. No way. No. Well, hey, I had to get a job and

Speaker 2 (00:24:19):

Can we go back in time so I can watch that? I want to see that and scream

Speaker 1 (00:24:23):

It. Yeah. I mean it sucked and I left. I couldn't do it and I sucked at it, but there was this one dude on the floor who he didn't care about the thing like refinancing mortgage. You didn't give a shit about that. But still he was obsessed with selling and was so fucking good at it that he basically did better than everybody else combined every single day. It was like mastery. It was incredible to watch

Speaker 2 (00:25:00):

You say this, in every field I'll use doctors for example. I have children and when you take children to doctors of all different types, you find out very quickly that there are people that are good at what they do. There are people that are not good at what they do, and then there's some people that you meet that are so good that after you meet them, you never want to work with anybody else because they're so good at what they do that they just make everybody else. They just stand out in a way where you're just like, that's what a real doctor is. That's the person. So it's in every field you meet people that are just really want to really be great. They stand out like a sore thumb. I feel like unfortunately, a lot of people, they just want to coast and it's fine. There's nothing wrong with coasting. It's way less stressful than being an obsessive psychotic success driven freak, but it's a much better life probably. Actually.

Speaker 3 (00:25:49):

I actually often kind of dream about a life that's a little simpler where I could just coast and I tried it. I actually, I don't know if I talked about this on the nail, the mix, but when I was younger, I had actually taken a break from music and I worked in the corporate world and

Speaker 1 (00:26:10):

I remember us talking about your break. I don't remember when, but I feel

Speaker 3 (00:26:15):

Okay, so we did talk about it.

Speaker 1 (00:26:16):

Yeah. Okay. But I don't remember when

Speaker 3 (00:26:20):

Maybe it was on the phone. Maybe we talked about

Speaker 1 (00:26:22):

That. Yeah, it could have been.

Speaker 3 (00:26:23):

Yeah. Yeah. I went to corporate. I was trying to be in a band before band didn't do great. Well, it did great, but the band members argued too much. We had a fight in the middle of a record label meeting and then we didn't get the deal. So look, fuck these guys, fuck music. This is stupid. There's so much work to do this and I don't know if I have it in me to do it clearly. And so I went back to corporate and I had a decent job. This is over 10 years ago. I was making almost a hundred KA year with benefits. I had a nice place. What are benefits? Something that normal people had.

Speaker 1 (00:27:04):

That sounds great,

Speaker 2 (00:27:05):

Dude. Sign me up.

Speaker 3 (00:27:07):

Yeah, it does sound great. Until you did it. I wanted to legit kill myself. I was like, dude, if I did this every day, I don't think life is worth living.

Speaker 2 (00:27:15):

That's how I was when I had my office job for two and a half years. I was on gear slots like eight hours a day and then I worked the other 30 seconds on my actual job. I hated it. I was so miserable. I was like, I will live in my mom's basement humiliation and try to start recording local bands. I don't care.

Speaker 3 (00:27:33):

That is legit. What I did is I moved back home. Luckily I live in la so moving home to me means I still get to live in la so not everybody gets that opportunity. But I did move home and we don't really have basements out here, but they carved out, I guess a man cave that's not quite a basement, but it's kind of next to the garage and we live in a hill, so it's still not a basement. I didn't live, call

Speaker 2 (00:28:00):

It a den.

Speaker 3 (00:28:01):

Yeah, man den. Yeah. But I moved back in with my parents for a couple of months just to figure my shit out and that was the pivotal moment of damn, I at least need a job in music, something that's relevant to help me kind of pay to support myself. But after that, it's obsession city. It's going to be like what piece of gear is going to make me the best producer in the whole world? That stage where everything it is, it's not me, it's all this stuff. I've got a great ear. So it was like that obsession at first and then it was like, okay, this is how this works and this did help. It didn't change anything that drastically, at least not in the moment, but it helped me learn something about myself and my ear and that eventually that turned into, okay, I know enough about this to now work for somebody and with confidence, use something that they say they have that I also learned how to use. And then I also, I did intern for a couple studios here and there. This was one place, king Size Sound Labs. They're really nice. It is like an indie place. I met a lot of really cool people. There wasn't really the vibe for me on my soundbite. I still stand by. I like metal the most still, and they did a lot of indie and that is the kind of equal and opposite thing of metal when it comes to instrumentation.

Speaker 1 (00:29:30):

It really is.

Speaker 3 (00:29:32):

So I was like kind of dying there. I didn't hate it, but I also didn't love it. And that's kind of what brought me to, I just searched on Craigslist, so I was like anybody looking for anything? I found whatever job I just scoured every day until some composer actually posted a job and it was hilariously enough. It was Jerry Goldsmith's son. I dunno if you guys know who that is, but I don't

Speaker 1 (00:29:58):

Know his son, but know exactly who Jerry Goldsmith

Speaker 3 (00:30:02):

Is. Yeah, so it was his son and his son actually passed away a while back, but he did all of the, what is it? What show did he do? The Witch Blade show? And he did Call of Duty three and four I think, or two and three. He scored them. He scored them. He scored a bunch of video games. And then he also, when I walked into his studio, he had kind of a little homage to his dad. There's a picture of his dad conducting an entire orchestra with an ape mask on

Speaker 1 (00:30:45):

For Planet of the Apes.

Speaker 3 (00:30:46):

For Planet of the Apes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Jerry Goldsmith for the listeners, I don't know if you guys are familiar with this work. He did the original Planet of the Apes Star Trek, the original Star Trek, and there was one other one. I think he did a 2001 Space Odyssey.

Speaker 1 (00:31:02):

Yeah, it was one of the greats, definitely one of the all time greats for sure.

Speaker 3 (00:31:09):

But that was an opportunity I couldn't miss and I had knew nothing about composition. I lied.

Speaker 1 (00:31:14):

And you found it on Craigslist?

Speaker 3 (00:31:15):

Craigslist, yeah. I lied my ass off to getting there and I clearly didn't know what I was doing when I got in, but I think that they saw somebody who was willing to just put themselves out there enough to get the job and get their foot in the door, and they just taught me everything that I needed to learn. I

Speaker 1 (00:31:35):

Actually Wait, wait, so you lied your ass off to get in there and you got in there and did they immediately pick up that you lied your ass off?

Speaker 3 (00:31:45):

They tried talking about music theory and shit and relative minors to the majors and I was like, yeah, I know those. And they're like, no, you don't. And I was like, I don't don't know shit about music theory. I'm a shitty guitar player. What

Speaker 2 (00:32:00):

Shirt?

Speaker 3 (00:32:03):

And so they took me under their wing. I now know how to, that's been a long time, but I know how to orchestrate a movie soundtrack or basically up to 120 piece of orchestra. I know all the technical terms on how to talk to I guess orchestral musician or a classical musician. And they even taught me some scoring too. So that actually was, I was able to apply a lot of that stuff to modern production, things that I'd learned as well, and that job got my foot in the door and that's when I think with that job I was like, I can do this. It isn't just a dream, and it took me just convincing myself. I lied on that resume, but I convinced myself that I could learn anything if I just cared enough about it. And I think that's what it takes. That's really what it takes is instead of it being, and I tell people this all the time, I don't have interns right now, but when I did have the interns, I would tell them, turn your wants into needs because if you don't need to do something, you're not going to fucking do it.

(00:33:15):

But if you do need to do something, even if it's a subconscious thing like, oh, I want to get better guitar, you're not going to do it. But if you say, I need to get better guitar because if I do that, then I'll be able to play X, Y, or Z song or I'll be able to write better. I'll be more fluent on my instrument or with production stuff, I hear a mix and I don't go fuck that guy. I go, what did he do? I need to get as good as that guy. Or if I hear some kind of songwriting production trick that I've never seen in my life or heard in my life, that is really cool. You just took the format and flipped it in a really neat way. I need to get better so that I can come up with cool ideas like that.

Speaker 1 (00:33:58):

I think that needing is crucial and one of the best ways to make yourself need something because it's hard to will yourself into needing something. It has to be authentic is to throw yourself into a situation where you need to do something. You need to pick up a skill because you need to get something done because you're going to get fired otherwise, or you, I've just noticed recently on the past year or something with guitar always when I know I have a play through filming one Month Off Without Fail, that month is always great for my guitar playing and then afterwards when there's nothing scary coming up, it's hard to, I'll still practice, but it's hard to channel, I guess that upper brain parter get the light bulb to come on, that goes that extra distance. But because this thing is coming up and I can't really play this yet, but it's going to be filmed in a month, I need to figure this out. The need throwing yourself in the deep end, I have found is the best way to basically activate that part of your brain, kind of like you did to yourself with getting in with those composers. It's like you had to learn that now that you could have thought earlier, maybe it would be nice to learn some orchestration for whatever reason on the off chance it comes up, but as opposed to you're in it with these dudes and you're going to get fired if you don't

Speaker 2 (00:35:53):

The best life hack for this, you guys ready have children, you'll wake up every day with it automatically built in because you have other people depending on you to do it. Whether you want to do something or not, you will enthusiastically jump up to do the things that you don't want to do. But obviously, like I said, that's that's a big commitment, but yeah, that really change.

Speaker 1 (00:36:14):

Yeah, but then deal with, then also you got to hang out with them.

Speaker 2 (00:36:17):

I mean you do. It really changed my perception. I never cared about, for example, finance. I just want to record bands. I literally don't give a shit and then the day my daughter was born, I'm like, okay, I better go figure out how to make money for real. Now it switches. It's crazy.

Speaker 3 (00:36:37):

I actually, I got a little announcement for you guys. I'm about to be dad soon.

Speaker 2 (00:36:42):

Oh shit.

Speaker 3 (00:36:43):

Congratulations. Congratulations. Yeah. In a couple of months

Speaker 2 (00:36:46):

You call me after this podcast and I'll give you some advice.

Speaker 3 (00:36:49):

Thank you. I could really, this is my first one. Mour off Drops September 24th. Like a single

Speaker 2 (00:37:00):

Or is it going to be like a double Double Releaser

Speaker 3 (00:37:04):

Two album? Two, two record? No, it's just one. It's one. It's little boy. We're naming a maverick. For real. That's awesome. Yeah. I'm going to get him a dog and name it Goose, because Goose is going to die.

Speaker 2 (00:37:21):

Do you think you hustle now, man, you wait, dude,

Speaker 1 (00:37:24):

Are you really going to get him a dog named Goose?

Speaker 3 (00:37:26):

Oh, hell yeah. I am. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:37:27):

That's so awesome.

Speaker 3 (00:37:29):

My son is, no, I'm not sparing my son the trolling. Are you going to tell him that it's because he's going to die? I tell him after the Goose dies that his dad planned everything in his entire life ahead of time, so he respects me more.

Speaker 1 (00:37:44):

So when are you going to let him watch Top Gun before he's like 12 because that's going to be a spoiler if he does.

Speaker 3 (00:37:53):

That's kind of my gauge, I guess how insightful the little man is. If he can pick up on that real quick. My dog's name is Goose. Goose just died. Dad,

Speaker 1 (00:38:05):

Or my dog's name is Goose. Goose dies early into the movie. Dogs have short lifespans,

Speaker 3 (00:38:13):

Right? If he picks up on that, it'd be like I raised my, I mean, I can't control how smart he is, but hopefully smart enough to pick up on that. Right? Be proud. That's fucking hilarious.

Speaker 1 (00:38:26):

So have kids, that's how to make yourself care about things.

Speaker 3 (00:38:29):

Yeah. 10 out of 10 times,

Speaker 2 (00:38:32):

Everybody

Speaker 3 (00:38:32):

Else has been scaring me. They're like, dude, your whole

Speaker 2 (00:38:34):

Life going to change you. I'm going to terrify you when you and I talk. Don't worry. Shit, I'm going to ruin your whole day, but it'll be good for you. You need it. Trust me.

Speaker 3 (00:38:45):

I actually am really excited though. I really do. I've been thinking about having kids for a long time and I just never been like, I'm never financially right or I'm not emotionally and so many people that have kids, not the people who don't have kids, the people who do always say there's never a right time, and I'm like, that's just something that's to justify shit, and now they're right. Yeah, they are. Yeah, that's totally right. I wasn't ready to have this. I never was and I never will be. Probably you just kind of like anything else. Going

Speaker 2 (00:39:18):

Back to what you're saying, you're going to figure it out.

Speaker 3 (00:39:20):

Yeah, yeah. You got to ape in. You're a raw dog life, dude. Just like having this kid,

Speaker 2 (00:39:26):

You just get in the room with a bunch of composers and pretend you know what you're doing and soon you'll be one.

Speaker 3 (00:39:31):

Yeah. As long as you tell yourself though you need to do the thing that they expect you to do, you can't just hop in there and immediately assume you're not going to buy proxy become this amazing composer or producer or songwriter. I took the composition thing and turned it into production in songwriting for contemporary stuff, and it had nothing to do with classical. I did do scoring and cues for syn houses for a bit like sync libraries. If there's one thing I'd say, everyone says there's money in publishing and it's all in sync, but don't do it for specifically sync. Ever do it because you're in a band or you're an artist. If you do it as a sync composer where all you do is just write shitty jingles all day, you're going to hate life. That's just as bad as working corporate, I promise you.

Speaker 1 (00:40:27):

I mean, it's the same thing as being in one of those offices where they make that art for hotels. You know what I'm talking about?

Speaker 3 (00:40:38):

Yeah. You're not making art, dude. I mean you kind of are, but also you don't like art. You don't love it. You don't love it.

Speaker 1 (00:40:48):

It's like ish. I feel like at Berkeley they called that stuff Mak Mak. I don't remember that was an actual term or it's just what people called it, but yeah, it's not music. It's music. Yeah, it's the news. Music, music ish Musicy art hero

Speaker 2 (00:41:13):

Sit there in an elevator and just be like, who the hell works on this stuff? I just don't know anybody. How long have we all been doing this? Forever. I know it's a thing.

Speaker 1 (00:41:22):

I know who does, and actually I'm jealous of them. They're people who want, they're musicians or composers. That's what they want to do with their lives, but they don't have the artistic itch and they don't have that individualistic itch. They're more like craftspeople and they're into it. They're into it. This is what they do, but they also have no, they don't have that voice that ruins their life making them need to have this identity or this individual thing. They're perfectly happy if all day long they're just going through the act of working on music. It's cool. It's kind of like if you play in a wedding band for a living or do that sort of thing. I know people who do that and they're usually really killer musicians and it's really interesting to me. They'll play in wedding bands, cover bands and they play a lot and they're fucking great, but typically they don't give a shit about being an artist. That's not part of the equation.

Speaker 2 (00:42:52):

Just want to demolish brick house on guitar every Saturday.

Speaker 1 (00:42:55):

It's just playing guitar for a living. That's all it is, and if they're playing guitar for a living, they don't care what, it's just playing guitar for a living. That's it.

Speaker 3 (00:43:06):

Yeah. I've met a few people like that. It's like, it's a good gig. They're playing for so-and-so. I'm like, they're playing somebody else's songs. You're good with that. And they're like, yeah, I mean they're getting paid to play guitar. I'm like, it's not just guitar for me. Yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:43:22):

But that's what I'm saying. They're not artists. They're craftspeople and they're totally fine with it. It's amazing actually. So they probably don't ever get depressed. No. The ones I've met seem way happier.

Speaker 2 (00:43:41):

They have consistent wives.

Speaker 1 (00:43:44):

I

Speaker 2 (00:43:44):

Played in a band like that for a year, and while I hated it, I was like a metal shred kid at that age. Looking back, I'm like, those are actually kind of fun gigs. It's like just four chords and people are there having a good time and everybody's late,

Speaker 1 (00:43:58):

So you're not the personality type though for that.

Speaker 2 (00:44:02):

I didn't last very long, but looking back I'm like, man, I would probably actually enjoy that now. It seems like a fun party

Speaker 1 (00:44:08):

Dude, and seriously, some of the best musicians I've ever met do that. Some of them are just ungodly good, but just whatever chip is in the three of our heads that makes us obsess and want to do individual things, they just don't have that and they're fucking lucky. I think

Speaker 2 (00:44:41):

It's so funny. It's so true.

Speaker 1 (00:44:44):

Yeah. I think they're lucky. I was wondering what that would be like.

Speaker 2 (00:44:49):

Yeah, it's sometimes I think when I explain what I do for a living to people that have normal jobs, they like to complain about how hard their nine nine to five is and how it stressed them out. I'm like, yo, you have to love punishment and pain and suffering and self-sacrifice to do what we do, and you really have to be, I don't know what's the word for that, is this sadistic just to really

Speaker 1 (00:45:16):

Obsessed.

Speaker 2 (00:45:16):

Yeah, you have to be fucking crazy.

Speaker 3 (00:45:20):

Yeah. Yeah. You have to be a little out of your mind, actually a lot out of your mind to really push past that envelope.

Speaker 2 (00:45:28):

Yeah. Normal people don't sit there an hour 15 of their day drop dead exhausted. I'm going to fucking kill this mix. This is going to be you're just like, I just want to go home. I don't ever want to do this again. If I ever have to work a day like this, I quit. We're like, we thrive on that crap, and it's just,

Speaker 3 (00:45:44):

It's not. Do you ever come home after you're done with that and you just can't sleep of how on fire your brain is?

Speaker 2 (00:45:50):

Yeah.

Speaker 3 (00:45:50):

Yep. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:45:52):

I always argue with my wife and thank God she'll never listen to this podcast, but she'll be like, you're always thinking about work. You work enough today, and I'm like, well, it's who I am. It's everything I do. It's all like, yeah. It's tough to balance normal things, if that makes sense. Like you're used to dealing with high octane music industry. Everything comes in at four o'clock on Friday and needs to go to distro in two hours.

Speaker 1 (00:46:18):

That's exactly why I think if you're not like that, rejoice. If you believe in God, thank God that you're not like that. It doesn't mean you don't have a future in music, but it just means you might be happier because it's not a choice for me. My brain doesn't stop thinking about this stuff. It's not a job. It's a hundred percent just who I am, and so when I see people who have a job, whether the job is engineer or the job is going to an office or whatever and they go home and then it's over for that day and then they're themselves. What is that? I miss that. It's awesome.

Speaker 3 (00:47:10):

That

Speaker 2 (00:47:10):

Sounds great. I talk to my neighbors and they're like that. They're like, oh, I got off of work, and they're not even thinking about it, and I'm just like, oh,

Speaker 1 (00:47:17):

I see that in my girlfriend and I'm just like, wow, this is, I'm jealous.

Speaker 2 (00:47:23):

How do we channel some of that energy?

Speaker 1 (00:47:27):

I've tried. I can't do it, so I'm done trying. I went through a long phase. I actually got therapy for this, and the therapist tried to get me to realize that you're going to fail at doing that.

Speaker 3 (00:47:41):

Oh, wow. Your therapist was like, no, you're not going to

Speaker 1 (00:47:44):

Change. Yeah. Therapist was trying to get me to just understand that it can only be myself. We try to be normal. You're going to get really, really unhappy because can't be something. You can't be something you're not.

Speaker 2 (00:48:04):

I guess that's a great interesting point. Just embrace your path, whatever it is, whoever you are, you have to embrace that. If you're not in harmony with that, nothing else is going to matter in your life.

Speaker 3 (00:48:15):

Therapy I think is also one of those taboo things that a lot of musicians try to avoid. Kind of like music theory is going to make you bad at music or writing, and I just don't understand where that comes from. I've never felt that way. I always felt like if I learn more about a thing or if I learn more about myself going to therapy, I commend you for that actually. That's amazing.

Speaker 1 (00:48:41):

I think everybody should.

Speaker 3 (00:48:43):

Yeah, definitely, and I think that's one of those things that people just avoid. They think it's going to affect their musical ability. I actually wanted to ask you that. How do you feel about your creative spirit after the fact that you've gone to therapy?

Speaker 1 (00:49:01):

It's better. It's better just because my brain is so overactive that it's a high powered weapon that is very difficult. It's difficult to wield, and so if I'm not really, really careful, it gets wielded in the wrong direction sometimes at myself or sometimes just at the wrong thing, so talk therapy and I've done it forever is really, really helpful. It helps basically orient that weapon properly because yeah, it'll go off the rails without supervision basically.

Speaker 3 (00:49:47):

Yeah. Yeah. No, I've been thinking about doing it for a bit. I kind of figure our mind is the thing that we use to make all this music and the sharper we are the better we're going to cut. Right? So I can't see that as anything but a benefit.

Speaker 1 (00:50:05):

Yeah. I don't see how it could possibly hurt to have more insight into how you work, especially if you feel like there's parts of your personality that could be improved or you want to understand why you react to things a certain way or what types of things you react great to. I don't see how that could possibly be bad for somebody. I could go on for a while, but I think people are afraid to learn about themselves that might not like what they find out or something, but I don't see how it could possibly hurt.

Speaker 3 (00:50:51):

Yeah, I mean it is kind of scary. It's like people were afraid to go to the doctor. They're afraid that doctor's going to tell 'em to have cancer or some debilitating disease when it's like, it is scary. It's a scary thought. You don't want to subject yourself to that much stress or emotional, emotional distress, but it's something that I think if you kind of just rip that bandaid off, you can kind of start tackling things sooner,

Speaker 1 (00:51:20):

But you're going to deal with it either way. That's the thing. If you don't go to the doctor because you don't want to hear them say you have cancer, you're going to deal with the cancer and the effects of it whether or not you went to the doctor, so it's up to you if you want to treat it or just die without treatment, and I think with therapy you're going to deal with your own mental bullshit whether you go to therapy or not, you still live inside of your brain, so if you want that to get better, may as well look into it and you're going to have to deal with it either way.

Speaker 2 (00:52:01):

Yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:52:02):

Correct.

Speaker 2 (00:52:02):

Al for better help.com, he said another sponsor,

Speaker 1 (00:52:07):

The urm actually. Actually not for better help.

Speaker 2 (00:52:11):

I get retargeted on that every day. I don't even

Speaker 1 (00:52:13):

Know. I've been targeted for better help too. I'm not sure how I feel about stuff like Better Help. It's such an individual thing that it's hard for me to imagine that an app can just pair you with somebody.

Speaker 2 (00:52:34):

I need better mixes. Not better help,

Speaker 1 (00:52:37):

But yeah, but maybe

Speaker 3 (00:52:38):

So I almost sound better. You come to me, I'll make you sound like two angels sharing a dildo.

Speaker 1 (00:52:47):

Alright, look, we have five minutes left. Let's talk about audio for five minutes.

Speaker 3 (00:52:51):

Oh yeah. Okay. What is that? All right?

Speaker 1 (00:52:54):

Yeah. Do you want to do some rapid fire?

Speaker 2 (00:52:58):

Hell yeah. Are you ready?

Speaker 1 (00:53:02):

No.

Speaker 2 (00:53:02):

Yeah, that was alright. Fine. Okay. Favorite compressor

Speaker 3 (00:53:07):

And why distress? Because it's the most well-rounded compressor and they're not hard to fix and they're not hard to set and the manual gives you the best settings you've ever used on them.

Speaker 2 (00:53:17):

That is a fact. That is the best settings in a manual that's ever been made, I think in the history of audio. It's so good.

Speaker 3 (00:53:25):

I've never heard a preset sound good besides on the distress.

Speaker 2 (00:53:28):

Yeah, like Dave Dur and Empirical Labs, you guys just killed it. Okay. Sims or two amps?

Speaker 3 (00:53:35):

Two amps. But I do like Sims too for use. Interrupting. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:53:40):

Okay. Best plugin EQ

Speaker 3 (00:53:43):

As a cell L native channel two or the Metric Halo channel strip. Both tied. Yeah. Why? Why SSL native? The channel strip, the filter on that feels, and maybe I'm just crazy, but it feels the most analog. It does the least amount of that weird phasey thing when you over filter something in any other digital eq. You know what, I'm going to change my answer. The AVID focus rate eq, that's on everything that I do. I don't even know why I said anything else. It's stupid. It looks like shit, but goddamn, does it sound good? And that one say

Speaker 2 (00:54:26):

Go ahead.

Speaker 3 (00:54:27):

It just sounds good. It's just easy to get the results very aggressively and quickly without it sounding phasey.

Speaker 2 (00:54:35):

I will say the SSL native 4K channels strip sounds the closest to my actual board Out of all the plugins, that's the best one in my opinion.

Speaker 3 (00:54:42):

It is my current favorite plugin though. As far as eq, I've been using that a lot more just because maybe I love the fact that they actually nailed the sound of an actual SSL console, so if anyone's watching this has never worked off an SSL, that's the closest you're going to get so far.

Speaker 2 (00:55:01):

Okay. What is your favorite mic preempt? I think that changes every week

Speaker 3 (00:55:05):

Right now. I used to hate this thing. I got this cheap and it was my first preempt and it was like the, was it the Vintech X 73? And then I was like, no, I only class A stuff and this thing isn't true Class A and then I got a bunch of focus rice stuff. I got the red sevens and some old vintage 10 73 channel strip that goes in the rack. I think it just depends on the taste of the week. Sometimes I like modern, sometimes I like squishy, but if I had to just desert island preamp, I'd probably just take a 1272. No EQs. I don't like the extra shit I can EQ later. And I think the eq, when you engage in on Neve style, preamps actually degrades the signal and makes it a little more distorted even if you're not distorting your signal.

Speaker 2 (00:55:54):

And the only question that actually matters here today, what is the best sounding mix of all time

Speaker 3 (00:56:00):

Animals as leaders? No, I don't know. That changes me a lot too. I have a lot of favorites and one month I'll have a mix that I'm like, this is the fucking best thing I've ever heard in my life. I need to work for this person. And then next week it's like, okay, I don't like this as much anymore and I really liked this other mix and it just changes for me all the time. Well, you got to pick one. So sorry, this is going to sound weird and really obscure, but I really liked from when I was a kid, this propaganda, how to clean Everything mix. I think just everything was so present and clear but still raw because they were still going for punk. But I don't know something about how the guitars hit and maybe it's just nostalgia at this point. I don't know what it was about that mix, but when I first heard it I was like, this is the clearest shit I've ever heard in my life. And they were all tape. They didn't have tune, they didn't have that. They had editing, but you had to physically cut shit up. So there was a lot of cool rawness realness in there that I feel like not a lot of people really had lately, at least as far as mix go. It doesn't mean the cleanest or crispest mix, it just means the balance they got on that, how hard everything hits. It still hits to me.

Speaker 2 (00:57:27):

That's how I feel about Dig by Mud Vein. It's like I don't necessarily like how any source particularly sounds like it's not my favorite guitar toner bass, but the energy in that mix. I mean, first off Andy Wallace, but second off Andy Wallace, he just puts it in this pocket that just unbelievably works together in the most destructively awesome way. All I want to do is get in a pit, even though I'm too old to even move like that anymore. Every time I hear it I'm like, yes. Louder. It just hits.

Speaker 3 (00:57:56):

I mean, not to discredit Andy Wallace, but I bought a C two and a decent amount of his sound really does come from the C two, but he knows what he's doing with it. His mix is good. A C two is not going to help your mix unless your mix is great going into it. But some of that balance does come from one of these guys.

Speaker 2 (00:58:13):

It's got a sound to it for sure. I mean I have it as

Speaker 3 (00:58:16):

Well. Yeah, I mean he really is the goat though when it comes to mixing. I don't even, you guys kind of put me on the spot when we were running out of time. I could change my answer if we wine. The real answer is there's no perfect mix. To me. My taste changes every day and sometimes it'll hit me different. And I love good mixes and I don't think there is a best, I think it's just

Speaker 2 (00:58:44):

As long as it's got a C two on it, that's all that matters.

Speaker 3 (00:58:47):

Yeah, honestly. Yeah. Yeah. Get a C two on your bus comp, get a red three on your real drums. If you can find one for sale. Put some stressors on your vocals. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:58:59):

I got the transformers for the red three, but they're not in the box. They're just wired up. Thanks Rick Carson. Shout out.

Speaker 3 (00:59:06):

Dang. Dang. How'd you score the Transformers? Only

Speaker 2 (00:59:11):

A friend Rick Carson bought the entire stock of them on the internet.

Speaker 3 (00:59:17):

So that's that guy I talked to. Does he know anyone who can fix some red Seven fucking dude?

Speaker 1 (00:59:23):

We can introduce you to him if you don't know him. I need that. That's who you should talk to. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:59:28):

There's not many of them. Only Colin Britt and myself, Rick and Reed Shippen have them to my knowledge and we all have 'em on the back of our boards or a summing rigs. They're just, they're wired up to an XLR. It's crazy. I mean, they got a sound. It's like the red three without buying a red three.

Speaker 3 (00:59:43):

Nice, nice. I mean, I have the red sevens, I have a pair of those and they have the same circuit. I just dunno if they have the same transformer on the back end. So that could be a nice little Frankenstein rig there. Dick,

Speaker 1 (00:59:56):

Thank you very much for coming on. It's been a pleasure.

Speaker 3 (01:00:01):

It's been my pleasure, guys. It's always fun talking shit with you guys and I feel like every time we get in here we try to talk about audio stuff. We just end up talking about everything else.