MIKE LOW: Becoming a self-taught producer, skipping audio school, and how to work with metal legends

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

Hey everybody. Welcome to the URM podcast. Our guest today is Mike Low. He is known for his band, Bette and his former band in Ferry, but he has been working as a producer, mixer engineer, a syn engineer, and he's worked under some of the very best, Dave Otero, Jeff Dunn, Christian Donaldson, Dan Swano. And I think that he is the exact type of person who a large majority of our listeners would be inspired by because he is a musician who still is an active musician who has figured out how to make the recording thing work for work for himself. I mean, Joel, when you talk to people out there in the wild who are trying to do recording, mixing, production, how many of them are musicians on average?

Speaker 2 (00:01:02):

Most of them, I feel like it's the natural gateway and pathway into this stuff. I mean, that's how you and I both got into this, right? We started off in bands or just playing guitar in our bedrooms, and that led into discovering audio. So it's a very, very natural pathway, and I feel like if you want to be a successful producer or mixer, et cetera, being a musician, it should be an important part of your life because you can relate to those people and what they're going through at different stages of their career, which will make you much better and more effective at communicating with them.

Speaker 1 (00:01:30):

Yeah, totally. And I think that just being a musician in this day and age, the norm is to record yourself. Whereas back in the day, there would maybe be one person who had an inbox or something, maybe go further back in time. There would be the one person in the band with the four track. But I think in recent days, everybody has an interface and a DAW, the odd person out is the one who doesn't. So I think all musicians now record to some degree. And so I think that over the next decade we're going to see all the big producers mixers of the next decade are all going to be musicians or mostly going to be musicians. And I think that the engineer who isn't a musician is going to become an odd oddity basically. So let's get into it. Here's the episode. Mike Low, welcome to the URM podcast.

Speaker 3 (00:02:40):

Thanks for having me, guys.

Speaker 1 (00:02:41):

Hey, Mike. My pleasure. So you have folLowd the path that I think a lot of modern engineers follow, which is musician first, then move into professional engineering. The thing though that I think is different about you is that you were in one of the techiest bands on the planet, and usually when you put that much time into getting good at an instrument and being able to do that, there isn't much time to also learn engineering. It's usually not, the engineers aren't usually coming from the tech bands. So how did you find the time to do both music, get really good at it, and then also learn engineering?

Speaker 3 (00:03:47):

I think the guitar playing came second actually. So my interest in recording started back in probably late middle school, and I had a Fostex four track tape recorder, and I was like, whoa, you can layer guitar on guitar and add harmonies and shit. So got a drum machine and then in high school I saved up and bought a 16 track rolling digital recorder and got pretty good at it. And back in high school, I also had a music tech class where I went and learned about MIDI and senior year I had that class two periods a day, so I was always wanting to know more. So anyways, my professor in that class, or I guess a teacher is not a professor in high school, he suggested that I pursue this a little bit more. So that's when I moved up to Tennessee and went to college for it, which I don't recommend by the way. But yeah, the whole time I was also playing guitar. It was just like more on the slayer is probably about as techy as I got up to that point.

Speaker 1 (00:05:17):

Usually people go guitar, like music first, engineering second, and then when the music doesn't work out, then they go the engineering. Usually it's not engineering first, music second, but then actually have sign bands and stuff.

Speaker 3 (00:05:35):

Well, yeah, I mean to clarify, I did start playing guitar when I was nine, but I wasn't really, I started being a little bit more interested in the engineering side pretty early on I would say. But it was like when I went into college and met a bunch of metalheads and stuff, that's when I discovered neph and all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 1 (00:06:01):

Yeah. So why would you not recommend going to college for it?

Speaker 3 (00:06:06):

Two years was spent just doing general education, super boring shit. There were a lot of classes that I got to take that were cool, but they seemed more conceptual than hands-on and I was just ready to get my hands dirty.

Speaker 1 (00:06:24):

The conceptual stuff. Did it come, did you use it later?

Speaker 3 (00:06:32):

Yeah, to some extent, but a lot of it was already getting to be kind of ancient.

Speaker 2 (00:06:39):

Did you do signal flow in school?

Speaker 3 (00:06:41):

We did signal flow. That was probably the main thing that we learned about

Speaker 2 (00:06:46):

The most important thing in audio that everyone overlooks. And you can tell by any YouTube comment section or question you get in your dms.

Speaker 3 (00:06:54):

Yeah, it absolutely is. So that was good to learn there. But had URM existed in 2004, I wouldn't have gone to college.

Speaker 1 (00:07:05):

URM exists because it didn't exist in 2004.

Speaker 3 (00:07:09):

Right?

Speaker 1 (00:07:10):

Those were the years where I was going fucking crazy trying to find any information. So yeah,

Speaker 3 (00:07:18):

I mean I learned way more about mixing and editing and stuff on YouTube in the years following than I did when I was in college. So

Speaker 4 (00:07:29):

We

Speaker 3 (00:07:29):

Did get to do some hands-on stuff. We had some projects where the final project for the class would be like, so you find a band, bring 'em in, and you record 'em, do all the editing, mixing, and your final mix is what you're turning in at the end along with a bunch of documentation that most people don't typically use day-to-day, I would say. So that was cool, but it was a long-winded, expensive journey that I wish I could have just taken a different approach to because I didn't know anyone that was doing this. So that was, I just assumed that that's the way to go to college and that's where you learn about this. I didn't have anyone that I could go make coffee for and sweep the floors and learn our little tricks.

Speaker 1 (00:08:23):

I think that the school thing, if people want to go there, they have the time and the money for it, and they just really want to get a degree. Cool.

(00:08:37):

And I actually think that there's some people who need that kind of structure to learn best. So some people learn best in that sort of academic structure where there's a plan, there's a plan and it's laid out for you and it's going to take a few years, but there's a plan as opposed to doing it in the wilderness. Even if you go intern for somebody, you're still kind of into wilderness because you're picking up scraps of information that you might get some watching a session, you might get some through conversation, you'll get some through doing stuff yourself and trial and error, but it's not like some pathway, you kind of just got to forge your own path through. Whereas the school path, I think some people need that structure, whereas they'd fall apart without it. So I think I feel like the need to say this because I've talked shit about going to school a lot, however same. Yeah, I think in general it's a waste for recording, but if you're the type of person who needs that kind of structure,

Speaker 4 (00:09:54):

Then

Speaker 1 (00:09:55):

By all means if you're going to go and you're going to do everything that they give you, and then on top of that also try to develop some work outside of it, then cool.

Speaker 3 (00:10:06):

Yeah, I mean the thing in school is, or the thing in audio is a lot of it, there's not really a right or wrong answer. There is the conceptual stuff, like the signal flow that's just like this is the facts and you can learn software. We learned Pro tools. I got good pro tools in school, but there's cheaper routes and probably there's just a lot of different ways that you can learn the same information.

Speaker 1 (00:10:38):

So when you say you got good at Pro Tools, this is actually something I'm curious about because I don't know. So when I got hired to go down to Audio Hammer, I didn't know Pro Tools back in 2010, I used Digital Performer and Cubase and New Endo.

Speaker 3 (00:10:58):

I think I used that in high school in my music tech class. I can't even remember.

Speaker 1 (00:11:01):

That's an obscure DAW. It still exists. They're still making it. Really the only person I know who uses it is Michael Keane to this day. But anyways, so I went to Audio Hammer and did not know Pro Tools, and so I figured definitely going to learn it on the job, but I got that Pro Tools certification prior to going down there, the same one that anybody can get, and I felt like all I was learning was menus. They were just showing me menus. It was basically just someone teaching me the manual. And then when I got down to Florida, I still really didn't know how to use Pro Tools the right way. So they sent me down to Morris Sound, and I believe it was Tom Morris. There's two of them. It was a long time ago. I'm pretty sure it was Tom Morris sat with me for a few days and showed me Beat Detective and all the stuff, and that's how I actually learned it. But the certification itself basically didn't do shit. So what I'm wondering is in school, did you learn the kinds of things that you would have to know to be able to work in metal professionally? The specific parts of Pro tools that you would be using on a metal session,

Speaker 3 (00:12:30):

Like how to replace drums and stuff

Speaker 1 (00:12:33):

And how to use Beat Detective, how to use it for this specific use case?

Speaker 3 (00:12:38):

I think we probably breezed over it, but no, when I got out I was like, okay, I can record an indie rock band, and it sounds okay maybe at best, but

Speaker 2 (00:12:50):

T Machine Style Pro tools stop and start.

Speaker 3 (00:12:54):

Yeah, I mean, we learned probably the same kind of stuff you'd learn in a certification, but yeah, real world, if I was actually to go into a studio and do a session right after that, I probably would've just fallen on my face.

Speaker 1 (00:13:10):

That's pro what I expected.

Speaker 3 (00:13:13):

So I did do an internship while I was there, but it wasn't the kind of internship I wanted as far as going in and recording in band or something or being around that environment at least. And so I wonder if you remember this Al back in the mid two thousands or maybe even a little after that, there was a company that, it was called Multi-Platinum Pro Tools. It was an instructional DVD series. Does this ring a bell at all?

Speaker 1 (00:13:46):

Vaguely.

Speaker 3 (00:13:48):

Okay. So you'd buy not the kind of DVD that you would put into your DVD player on your tv, but a computer DVD, it'd come with a few video files and it would come with a pro tool session and you'd just follow along and learn how to do editing or mixing or whatever. But anyways, so the guy that I interned for was the head of that company and I was kind of doing some inventorying the DVDs and answering some customer emails and stuff. So the stupidest internship. But one other thing that the guy did was a lot of vocal editing and vocal tuning and his claim to fame was doing all the editing on nsync, no strings attached. Nice. Which is pretty sick. It is,

Speaker 1 (00:14:42):

Yeah. That's quite claim to fame.

Speaker 3 (00:14:45):

He was working on a Darius Rucker album when I was interning with him, but I didn't get to do any of that cool stuff. He had me doing the DVD inventories and then he was also the sound guy at his church. So I would edit podcasts of sermons,

Speaker 1 (00:15:04):

Which is exactly why you got into extreme death metal. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I mean, they're not going to start you on nsync.

Speaker 3 (00:15:16):

Well, yeah, for sure. But I'd at least like to look over the shoulder or something.

Speaker 1 (00:15:21):

Still though, I feel like, I mean, in that internship, did you at least learn how to do it properly?

Speaker 3 (00:15:27):

No.

Speaker 1 (00:15:29):

Oh, well then that sucks.

Speaker 3 (00:15:30):

They gave me the DVDs for free and I learned probably more. That's cool.

Speaker 2 (00:15:35):

That's amazing.

Speaker 1 (00:15:37):

Man. That would piss me off, honestly, if I was interning for a dude working on nsync and then he didn't teach me how to do it.

Speaker 5 (00:15:48):

Yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:15:50):

Motherfucker. Well, I mean, I feel like that is the point of an internship is, I don't know, the laws are different in different places about paid or unpaid, but in the unpaid world of internships, which is most of them that I'm aware of, the trade is you're giving your time for free. So you're supposed to get back basically the keys to the castle. Knowledge wise, it's supposed to be an equal exchange of value to where you're getting the value of the information that you're getting is more than worth the time that you're spending there. So it's supposed to, ideally,

Speaker 3 (00:16:44):

Yes.

Speaker 1 (00:16:44):

Ideally.

Speaker 3 (00:16:45):

I think if we're just going by the law in Tennessee, it's like you have to get some form of compensation, and that can be in the form of credit hours. So I got a few credit hours for it.

Speaker 1 (00:17:04):

Fuck yeah.

Speaker 3 (00:17:05):

In exchange for driving an hour and hour plus each way three times a week.

Speaker 1 (00:17:13):

Yeah, I mean, did you get anything out of it?

Speaker 3 (00:17:18):

No, I don't really think I did.

Speaker 1 (00:17:21):

Okay. So where's the first place that you actually started to get information? When did you actually start to get information that was, I guess, real world applicable? When did that start to take a turn for you? It sounds like from school and the internship, you just got basic working knowledge of recording.

Speaker 3 (00:17:44):

Sure, yeah. Okay. So right after I graduated, I was like, I didn't have a studio I was hooked up with through an internship or anything. So I started applying at all the studios around Nashville, and they're like, well, to get a job with us, you have to intern with us, but to intern with them, you have to be enrolled in school. So it's like, okay. I actually kind of gave up for several years also. Right about that time, I switched to Logic, said, fuck Pro Tools Logic's cool. So I just started writing music and Logic. I wasn't really trying to mix or record any bands, just trying to demo some stuff. And then this is kind of where in theory comes into play. So they had broken up after their first two albums, and then Malcolm was like, Hey, we should, I know you're writing some stuff. Maybe you want to join as a second guitarist. So we got together, started putting our material

Speaker 1 (00:18:48):

Together. Malcolm Pugh for people who don't know, and Joel, I know you follow, I know you don't follow in Ferry. So Malcolm Pugh, he's been on Riff Hard as an instructor. He's one of the best guitar players in the entire scene, but he is also an entrepreneur. Label owner is one of those. He filmed his own stuff for Riff Hard. He knows how to film really well. He's just one of those dudes who can do anything he wants and is good at all of it. Yeah, for sure. That's my assessment.

Speaker 5 (00:19:24):

Yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:19:26):

Just an intro to who this Malcolm is and Ferry is, it's not the biggest band, but it's one of those bands that if you know kind of thing in the tech community, it's like if you know they're fucking sick.

Speaker 3 (00:19:44):

So yeah, about that time we were starting to put together material for this album coming up, and we had a guy record the drums out in Houston, and he was going to mix the album, and he had sent us, let me think here. He sent us some stuff. We're like, man, this sounds really bad. And the edits were all messed up, and I was like, I bet I could probably figure out how to do this. So I took the raw tracks, figured out how to edit drums, just on in Theory's third album, and then ended up mixing it. And then I was like, all right. That was fun. It was kind of a pain in the ass, but I kind of want to do this. I want to get back into it.

Speaker 1 (00:20:34):

So you taught yourself how to edit drums on technical death metal?

Speaker 3 (00:20:38):

Yeah, just through a couple of YouTube videos and trial and error. Fuck,

Speaker 2 (00:20:41):

That's the best starting point, honestly.

Speaker 1 (00:20:44):

Yeah, the most difficult. Just jump right in the deep end.

Speaker 3 (00:20:48):

Yeah, I mean,

Speaker 2 (00:20:50):

You got it. Tech death, you can do

Speaker 3 (00:20:51):

No one else.

Speaker 1 (00:20:53):

Yeah,

Speaker 3 (00:20:53):

Yeah. There wasn't really any information on it that I could find. So it's like Grab the bull by the horns and figure it out. So that's kind of where it started.

Speaker 1 (00:21:06):

Did you do it in Logic or Pro Tools? I did it in Logic. Holy shit.

Speaker 3 (00:21:11):

I pulled up one of those sessions the other day, we were like, let's try remixing the album for the 10th anniversary. And man, that project looks atrocious. I can't even, I was like, nah, I'm not doing it.

Speaker 1 (00:21:24):

So we released a Fast Track, an Advanced Logic Fast Track a few years ago

(00:21:31):

Where we do cover editing in Logic. Apparently it's gotten better because for the longest time, as you all know, that was the thing that don't edit drums and logic. I mean, even Will Putney, who's a Ride or Die Logic user, would still have his drums edited in Pro Tools. And I think to this day, his drums are edited in Pro Tools. That's what Pro Tools that his studio exists for. So for the longest time, we would tell people through URM, logic sucks for editing, but then actually Machines Assistant showed us that you can do it. And so we, in the fast track he made, we cover editing in Logic, and from what I understand, it might not be as robust as cubase or Pro Tools, but it's good enough apparently.

Speaker 3 (00:22:36):

I think it's probably good enough,

Speaker 1 (00:22:39):

But I don't know if it got a lot better than back in the day,

Speaker 3 (00:22:43):

Man, I'm not even sure. When I opened Logic now it looks like a foreign land to me. I don't think I could even try doing it again. I switched to Keybase

Speaker 2 (00:22:54):

Logic all weekend in Nashville, just hanging in on sessions and I was just like, what are you? It just made no sense to me. I just don't get it. It's so confusing for me to look at coming from cubase.

Speaker 1 (00:23:05):

Yeah. Okay. So you opened those old sessions and they were a complete catastrophe,

Speaker 3 (00:23:11):

So didn't want to even try remixing that. It seemed like some of the stuff had been scooted way off out of place on the timeline and just the routing was, I think it was all just going to the stereo out. Like

Speaker 1 (00:23:25):

What the hell? I got a request the other day, Joel, I don't know if you ever get these. I got a request the other day from somebody that I recorded in 2005, 2005 asking me if I have the session files.

Speaker 2 (00:23:43):

That happened to me recently, maybe a year ago. Somebody from 2009 was like, Hey. I'm like, no, I mean I have it, but you're going to pay me to go dig through for two or three hours of time to dig out the hard drives and go find it, and then we'll see if it even opens. But I need money to go find it first because I'm very, very busy. And that was the end of the conversation.

Speaker 1 (00:24:03):

That's exactly what I said too. It was like, maybe your session exists. I do have a box of hard drives, but do I have a fire wire drive? No, there's

Speaker 2 (00:24:19):

A solution to that, by the way. And the trick is now I started adding full stems in all of my deliverables. So even if I mix for the most local band, that is probably going to break up by the end of the week, predictably, I am definitely turning in full stems that way they can never call me and say, can you make live tracks? Seven years later we've reunited and we need the vocals up and this and that. It's just like you have all the files, open it up to your computer and figure it out. Here's a PDF explaining how it's laid out. And it solved that problem for me in the last two and a half years, and my life has been perfect since I switched.

Speaker 1 (00:24:50):

That's a solid idea. Solved every problem in your life.

Speaker 2 (00:24:54):

Yes, all of them, because all of them deal with people coming back to stems from 20 years ago.

Speaker 1 (00:25:01):

So actually one of the best things I learned from Andrew Wade was he showed me his Pro Tools template 10 years ago, which he's a really clever dude, but he had this pro tools template where everything, this was before I saw anybody else do it. This template routed all your stems. It routed an instrumental, it routed a vocal up, a vocal down, a limited, and a non-limited mix all at once. So in Pro Tools, at least in those days, it was better to record into pro tools than export rather than bounce. I think the bounce feature has been fixed, but in those days, yeah, you would record back in. I think people still do that. So he just set it up to where if you're going to record back in anyways for the mix, why not also just get all the stems, all the instrument, the instrumental, all of it in one go, and then no one will ever bother him again about that stuff. So pretty clever. I think 2013

Speaker 3 (00:26:19):

When, yeah, I've changed my way since then. I didn't even know how to edit a drum. So much less thinking about stems.

Speaker 1 (00:26:25):

Yeah, well, I can tell you back then no one was routing sessions like that. That was pretty breakthrough for some.

Speaker 2 (00:26:37):

It's the first I've ever seen too. I mean, that's coming from Joey's camp and usually Joey thinks about those types of things and was one of the guys who pioneered a lot of that type of thinking.

Speaker 1 (00:26:46):

Yeah, Joe is super clever with all the stuff he came up with. So yeah, that was kind of unheard of, but okay, so yeah, so basically within Ferry you just decided, fuck it, I'll do it. And it worked.

Speaker 5 (00:27:02):

Yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:27:03):

Exactly. Man, that fuck it. I'll do it. Attitude is something that I've talked about this before, but can we focus on that for one second? I think it's really, really important. I think out of everything we've talked about, it might be the most important thing, more important than if you go to school or not go to school or if you do an internship or don't that, fuck it. I'm going to just try this mentality. I think everyone I know who has made stuff work in life in difficult fields at some point in time has just said, fuck it, fuck it. I'm just going to do it.

(00:27:47):

And I'm talking right now to the URM community because I've seen now thousands and thousands of people go through and there are those who have come through and on the other side are now working and doing real work. And by real work, I don't mean necessarily major level, I just mean they're doing work and getting paid for it at any level, all the way from local to shit that's like platinum. And then I've seen a lot of people who want to do it and then they just don't. I am right now not referring to people who are just doing it casually or just because they enjoy it. And I've talked to so many of these people one-on-one, and the big difference that I've noticed with the people who I've spoken to personally in one-on-ones and just in the community and in person, the difference between the ones who have gone on to do stuff and make it a job career versus those who didn't is at some point, the majority of them had this fuck it moment and that fuck it moment translated as maybe they moved from Virginia to LA or from Florida to la or they were like in your situation where you're in a band, you got the stuff back from the mixer and it sucked.

(00:29:21):

May as well risk looking. It could have been that you would've tried and it would've gotten an even worse and you would've been embarrassed in front of your band. I

Speaker 3 (00:29:30):

Mean, I don't think it came out great, but

Speaker 1 (00:29:32):

No, but still there's

Speaker 3 (00:29:34):

That mentality. It's usually more often than not a life-changing thing, it always develops a new skill. So the first time it happens, you might get really bad results, but you're like, at least I learned something and now I kind of want to do it again and do it better. And that's how your skills develop

Speaker 1 (00:29:55):

And your attitude. And

Speaker 3 (00:29:57):

Your attitude for sure.

Speaker 1 (00:29:59):

Yeah, because imagine if you had this right here, it's like a crossroads because I've spoken to people who would've gone the other way with this, where the situation is the band recorded, we got the files back, we are not happy. And then the person who would've been in your shoes would've gotten the thought maybe I should offer, but maybe not. What if it goes bad? And then they'll never let me do anything again. They'll never trust me to try to make something again and it's going to suck. And

Speaker 3 (00:30:45):

Yeah, I went through that for a

Speaker 1 (00:30:46):

Long time. Then the comet's going to hit my house, I'm going to die. I mean, some version of that, what I've spoken to people who take the other route, they make a story typically, and the story is an irrational story where this one thing goes bad, and then that means something about the way that they see themselves, and then they start predicting the future as in then this will go bad, then this will go bad. Then this next thing will go bad, and it's just never going to work. So I may as well not try versus people who I've seen just say, fuck it, fuck it. It might not work, but fuck it.

Speaker 3 (00:31:30):

But at least you tried.

Speaker 1 (00:31:31):

Yeah, exactly. I mean,

Speaker 3 (00:31:33):

Yeah, more often than not, worst thing that happens is it's not great, but you learn something and you get better.

Speaker 1 (00:31:41):

It's a better choice.

Speaker 3 (00:31:43):

It's a better choice.

Speaker 1 (00:31:44):

I mean, look, say you tried it and it wasn't that great, Joel, we just talk to somebody last week. I am remembering an episode where the person we spoke to tried mixing for their own band and the band was like, eh. But then they tried again next time around, and again, it was just like, eh, it's better. But third time, then he tried again, third time they let him have it, and then he's done all their records from then on and they're successful records and he's a fucking sick mixer now. But he took the,

Speaker 3 (00:32:21):

Yeah, had he not tried the first time, then he wouldn't be there.

Speaker 1 (00:32:25):

And then the second time, the second and got rejected the second time and then try it again the third time. That to me is awesome because most people would've not even tried the first time. And certainly out of those most people who did try the first time, had it not worked out, an even smaller percentage would've tried again. So yes, that's it. Moral of the Story episode over. No, I'm just kidding. No, I think that that's a huge decision that you made. So it went all right though. It went all right.

Speaker 3 (00:33:06):

It went all right. Yeah. So yeah, from there I was just mixing albums for bands that were on our label here and there.

Speaker 2 (00:33:15):

How were you acquiring those mixed gigs? So they heard it, they liked it, or were you actively out pursuing people and networking? What was your strategy?

Speaker 3 (00:33:26):

I wasn't really pursuing that at all. It was more people that I knew. Me and Malcolm own a label together.

Speaker 1 (00:33:35):

I didn't know that you part owned the label. That's awesome.

Speaker 3 (00:33:38):

That

Speaker 1 (00:33:38):

Makes sense. Okay.

Speaker 3 (00:33:39):

The label actually started because of that inferior album that kind of funded the first bit of the business venture to get us going,

Speaker 1 (00:33:48):

Oh, that's sick.

Speaker 3 (00:33:50):

So it kind of started with a couple friends bands and projects. They're like, Hey, we need somebody to mix this album. And I was like, I'll try Sure thinking, know what I'm doing now, and then kind of went from there. I don't do as much stuff for the label anymore except that I'm doing this new inferior album. And it's a couple other things I've done lately, but

Speaker 1 (00:34:14):

It was basically within the circle of people who knew the band or were on the label. I'm assuming they liked your work with other people in the circle and then wanted you to do it.

Speaker 3 (00:34:29):

Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 1 (00:34:32):

It's typically how it works, I think.

Speaker 3 (00:34:35):

Yeah. I know that people say you shouldn't really rely on the word of mouth thing, but sometimes it just does work. Who says that? I think you never told me that one time.

Speaker 1 (00:34:45):

Dude. What? Me?

Speaker 3 (00:34:47):

Yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:34:48):

No, no way. I never heard anyone say that. Oh, no, no. Hold on. Let me clarify. Lemme clarify. In the specific scenario that you presented me, the word of mouth and the timeframe that you gave,

(00:35:09):

This needs to happen now kind of thing. You don't have time for word of mouth, plus the fact that you already were established and had a track record and you were not looking for mixing the next Metallica, you had a very specific thing you were trying to do within a very short timeframe. You can't wait for word of mouth. In that case, the word of mouth strategy, I think is a long-term play. It's like a five year, 10 year kind of thing where you're slowly building a clientele over a course of half decade to decade. Yeah. Yeah, that's totally different. And also I wouldn't recommend it if you're a mixer trying to get higher profile mixing work. Word of mouth is the way that that word of mouth and then people hearing stuff on Spotify or wherever they hear it, that's how that works. That's not through advertisements or whatever, but in your specific situation, Mike was looking for more assisting and editing work, right? More engineering work. Sure,

Speaker 5 (00:36:27):

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:36:29):

In Nashville, I believe.

Speaker 3 (00:36:32):

Well,

Speaker 1 (00:36:34):

Why don't really matter. Why don't you clarify?

Speaker 3 (00:36:37):

I think I was asking you for just general advice on getting more assistant work.

Speaker 1 (00:36:44):

Yes.

Speaker 3 (00:36:45):

It can be super busy or it can be very spotty sometimes, and it was probably in the colder months, which is generally going to be less busy for I think most people as far as I'm aware.

Speaker 1 (00:37:00):

Yes. Okay. That's right. And my theory was since you've already done all the work for Otero and you've been out there and have a resume that's sick, you actually going and trying to get it yourself and being super proactive will probably get you what you want as opposed to, I mean, you should always be proactive, but as opposed to if you have no track record or there's other types of work you're trying to get, like I said, if you're trying to get more mixing clients or attract bigger bands to produce, or you're trying to start a local studio from the ground up, that I think that the word of mouth thing is it. And then also for if you think of John Douglas for instance, who he does produce bands and he does mix bands, but I'd say that he has made his name assisting and editing for people. That's been how he has built it. That was word of mouth, man. That was me introducing him to Mark and Jason and then to Putney and then to whoever, and then eventually John's work doing stuff, or Jay Rustin and who the hell knows how many different people he's worked for at this point in time. But people would then communicate to each other and people would say, do you know someone who can edit? Great. It's like, yeah, talk to this dude John. But that's a process of years. It's not like, Hey, I need to fill next month.

Speaker 3 (00:39:05):

So I think what you replied back was like, you need to put forth a little bit of effort and see what happens or something. I think it took one day and I was like, cool. I got a gig. And it was just like a shot in the dark to Jeff Dunn actually. He's like, yeah, I could actually use a hand.

Speaker 1 (00:39:27):

Oh, sick.

Speaker 3 (00:39:28):

Jeff is

Speaker 1 (00:39:29):

Sick.

Speaker 3 (00:39:29):

It's not just like some dude.

Speaker 1 (00:39:32):

No, but I think that, how did you phrase it when you hit 'em up? I think this should be really interesting to people listening, because I think that that's kind of a dream for so many people who are URM members is how do you get to work for someone like Jeff or someone like Dave or whatever. So yeah, you just hit on it,

Speaker 3 (00:40:00):

Jeff. Those are two different stories for sure. Well, for Jeff, I mean, I've got a couple names I can drop from experience. I've been assisting for Dave Otero and Dan Swano for about three, four years, I guess between the two of them. And I've got some free time this week and want to see if you have any needs for edits or audio committee conversion or whatever. And he was like, yeah, actually I got a project coming up in a couple days and Jeff actually used to intern for Dave, so I think about 10, 15 years ago or something. So

Speaker 1 (00:40:49):

It's funny what, just putting yourself out there does, every once in a while I'll get this pang of panic of how am I going to book nail the mix or something.

Speaker 4 (00:41:09):

If

Speaker 1 (00:41:09):

You think about it, we're in the 10th year that since URM started and 2025 will be 10 years of nail a mix. So 10 years straight of a new band and a new producer every single month, sometimes two. There's lots of times it's never been hard to book, but every once in a while I'll get that panic of how do you keep going? Who am I going to call? What am I going to do? And then literally I just sit down and an hour later I have four months booked. That's

Speaker 3 (00:41:56):

The thing about sticking with this for so long and then making all these connections is that somehow everything happens to fall into place in those moments, in those times of need.

Speaker 2 (00:42:10):

It really does. It's amazing how many times,

Speaker 3 (00:42:13):

It's crazy. I can't even explain why that happens.

Speaker 2 (00:42:16):

Everything just went wrong, but when you needed to come through, everything just seems to magically work. So it happens all the time to a lot of people that I know that own companies or even in this business where it's just like, everything has fallen through this week, this and this and that happened, and then suddenly something comes through and it's like, wow, now that was the exact thing they needed. So it is interesting how that works.

Speaker 1 (00:42:39):

Well, it's because of the groundwork you did.

Speaker 3 (00:42:43):

Yeah, exactly. I mean, that's not just going to happen to anybody. You have those fuck it all do it moments and everything else that you've, people you met along the way and all that.

Speaker 1 (00:43:00):

Yeah, it adds up to become a safety net. So how did you end up working for Otero?

Speaker 3 (00:43:07):

So back in 2020 in Fury went to record an album with Dave and I did The ultimate thing you shouldn't do with anyone you're working with is making a massive list of notes. So it had a lot of little glitchy, some glitchy noises and just things that I didn't think were right in the drum edits. And when I gave him that, I think he wanted to kill me at the time probably. But anyways, we got through it all and then once we went home, probably about a month later, I was like, Hey man, gave her need any help with drum edits. I've been working with Tech Death drum edits and crazy stuff for a long time and would love to be part of the team. And he was like, actually, well, when you're here, I was kind not thinking about that. He seemed to have a crazy attention to detail, but he was like, I work in Cubase, you work in Logic and I need somebody that works in cubase. So I was like, alright, I'll get a cubase. So I bought it that day and then shortly after I was just sick of working this kitchen job I was working at. So I just quit that. And what I did was I'd wake up in the morning, watch every URM and YouTube video I could about Cubase. Then I'd go out at lunchtime and DoorDash or whatever, and then I'd come back and spend the rest of the afternoon doing nail the mixes and Cubase tutorials.

(00:44:48):

And a couple months later Dave was like, Hey, I needed some help with edits. How are you feeling in cubase now? And I was like, I think I'm pretty much fully transitioned over from Logic. So

Speaker 1 (00:45:01):

Have we released the Cubase FastTrack with Jeff Dun yet at that point?

Speaker 3 (00:45:07):

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:45:08):

Yeah. Awesome.

Speaker 3 (00:45:11):

Yeah, so thanks for that.

Speaker 1 (00:45:13):

You're welcome. We did it for you.

Speaker 3 (00:45:14):

Yeah, so the first one I did was, I guess it was the last chemist album, which was a good way to get into that with him. It was way simpler, drums, and then I think, well, pretty much everything he's done since January, 2021, I've done the edits for, or mixed prep for maybe except for two things.

Speaker 1 (00:45:43):

I remember when he brought you on, he told me he was really, really stoked with the level of detail, your attention to detail. He was really, really stoked to have you on. How long did it take you to get comfortable with Cubase?

Speaker 3 (00:46:03):

I mean, it was probably that year. I got it probably in October, 2020 and I was already working with him in January 21. So

Speaker 1 (00:46:16):

Just a few months?

Speaker 3 (00:46:17):

Yeah, just a few months. He had some private YouTube videos he sent me that are specifically for his assistance. But yeah, I mean I just took a deep dive making notes practicing. I'd pull in an old song I recorded years ago in Logic and I'D the drums and Cub Bass just to learn how to do it.

Speaker 1 (00:46:41):

It's interesting to me when people tell me that they don't know how to transition to a different da, it's like, what do you mean? We've made classes on it. If they're asking me inside of URM, it's like, yo, we made something for it. Just get the DA and get to work. That's it. Usually there's a pushback of, well, I'm so comfortable with this other D. It's like, yep, that's why we make classes about it. Take a second if you're transitioning, but

Speaker 3 (00:47:25):

Well, what's the need to go to a different one if you're already comfortable in something?

Speaker 1 (00:47:31):

That's my first question always is why, and lots of times I think that people do it because they saw someone else using it. They'll watch Vanilla Mix and see someone do great stuff in it and be like, alright, I

Speaker 3 (00:47:50):

I want to

Speaker 1 (00:47:51):

Use that now.

Speaker 3 (00:47:51):

That's why I switched to Cubase. We were recording out there and I was like, that looks awesome. It looks like a way better workflow than logic. So that's why I switched and then also to work with Dave, but

Speaker 1 (00:48:06):

Those are usually the, okay, so out of all the reasons I hear those are the two legit reasons that I hear is I've seen what that doc can do and the workflow suits me. It seems like I would do much better with it, or I'm about to get a job somewhere where I need to learn it.

Speaker 3 (00:48:25):

Well, it's just like spend the time doing it.

Speaker 1 (00:48:29):

Joel, how many dos have you used Joel? I know you're like a Cubase purist.

Speaker 2 (00:48:35):

I started with Cool Edit Pro, then it became Adobe Audition, so technically that's one. And then the first time I saw Cubase, it made sense to me in about 30 seconds. In about two days I was totally fluent in it and already recording and stuff like that. So it just worked with my brain. It was very easy for me to use and adapt to. And the first time I opened it I'm like, whoa, this is way better than what I use. And I don't know. I tried Reaper, for example. I've tried Pro Tools. I've obviously played around with Logic because we have every DAW in here for software testing. Nothing else makes sense to my brain when I open it. I'm like, I can't even navigate basic Pro tools. I'm like, I sure I could if I sat down and figured it out. But it just, everything seems totally backwards to me and maybe it's habit, but first time I opened Cubase, it just clicked immediately and I'm just like, oh, that's how I think. Perfect.

Speaker 1 (00:49:26):

Honestly, I started with Cubase, well, not really. I started with a one called Making Waves. I don't know if you guys have heard of that one.

Speaker 3 (00:49:35):

No.

Speaker 1 (00:49:37):

Hold on. Anybody listening or watching? Let me find this website. You got to see this duh making.

Speaker 2 (00:49:45):

Is it like 1993 special with

Speaker 1 (00:49:48):

Windows? Well, not 1993. Windows

Speaker 2 (00:49:50):

95

Speaker 1 (00:49:52):

Graphics Making Waves software.com. Let's just say 19 98, 19 99, 97. What is that?

Speaker 2 (00:50:00):

Windows xb.

Speaker 1 (00:50:01):

This was my introduction to working on computers with music. I cannot believe they still make it and it still looks exactly the same.

Speaker 2 (00:50:12):

We should all switch today.

Speaker 1 (00:50:14):

Yeah, go [email protected]. Anybody watching? Oh, it's only 1999. That's pretty good. It's more than Reaper.

Speaker 2 (00:50:25):

Still evaluate Reaper for free. I'm just saying.

Speaker 1 (00:50:27):

I know. So it's more for electronic music. It's like a sequencer, but you can record the audio into the squares, I guess the sequencer squares. So I would try to make music with it and quickly realized I needed something else. And then Cubase just made a lot of sense. Cubase was very easy to adopt in those days, I think.

Speaker 4 (00:50:55):

I don't know.

Speaker 1 (00:51:04):

Yeah, trying to pick up cubase now. It was a little bit more difficult than back then. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:51:09):

They've made it way more complicated because everybody's in a feature war right now. It's like, how many features can I claim? Oh, this D W's got this, we need to have this. And then they do their version of it. It just gets to a point where it's like they'll update these softwares and you're still using the same workflow you had 10 years ago and then maybe one or two new features. But it's cool that all that stuff's in there, but at the end of the day, it's that core workflow. I think that matters.

Speaker 3 (00:51:31):

Well, ail that you've got all that information at your fingertips, all you have to do is just

Speaker 1 (00:51:37):

Watch a video. Yeah, I know. I've heard that there are some courses on it. Actually, I did do that. I sat there and watched Jeff Dunn's Fast Track over the course of 48 hours. I watched it and meticulously did every single thing in there. So I did do it, but there's a fluency aspect that even if you have watched a video or 19, there's a fluency that you can only get through using the DAW all the time. And with Pro Tools, pro tools, I'm very, very fluent in. So the only issue for me is switching to Cubase. Suddenly I'm a lot sLowr. That's it. And I don't need to use it for work. There's less of that pressing, I'm not going to get a paycheck if I don't learn cubase. It's more of a luxury.

Speaker 3 (00:52:56):

I think there's an importance of knowing how to at least have some functional basic understanding of each daw.

Speaker 1 (00:53:05):

Yes, I agree.

Speaker 3 (00:53:06):

In an assistant point of view. So I really wish I would've stuck with Pro Tools since college. I'd be like Crazy Wizard at it.

Speaker 1 (00:53:17):

There is a way you can learn.

Speaker 3 (00:53:18):

There is a way. Oh, well I was getting at that. So in one of my panic times where I'm like, I need some work, I hit up Christian Donaldson and I was like, Hey dude, do you need some edits or anything? He was like, yes, but all the takes are still in playlists. And he's like, I'm about to go on tour and I don't have time to do that, but you can do it. I was like, well, I don't have Pro Tools. So I ended up getting a one month subscription of the $10 or $15 a month super basic Pro tools. And I went there and I watched John Douglas's Pro Tools videos and comped the drums, exported them, edited them in cubase. Then I took 'em back into Pro Tools and got the MIDI done in there. And then yeah, I was done. But I think people were scared of any other software than what they have. It's just figure it out.

Speaker 1 (00:54:28):

What you just said, I think is a really smart way to do it too, is you don't need to become an expert in every single daw, but just to be able to do what you did for instance, which is, okay, I, if I don't do this job that I have in front of me, which I could take, I will have to turn down or I could kind of figure out how to do what I need for this job and then actually get it and keep my career moving forward. And so it didn't require you to get Pro Tools Ultimate, is that what it's called? Right, the thousand dollars a year version. You didn't have to get that. You didn't have to watch the entire Pro Tools fast track, right? You just learned how to do the playlist comping and shit, and the audio to MIDI stuff and that's it. Pretty

Speaker 3 (00:55:34):

Much.

Speaker 1 (00:55:35):

Yeah.

Speaker 3 (00:55:37):

I feel like I told Chris that's what I was doing. He was like, I don't care, man, just as long as it's done. So I tried to do the edits and Pro Tools and I was like, this is going to take way too long. Lemme just put it in cubase.

Speaker 1 (00:55:48):

Well, that right there is kind of the thing is when people talk about having to use a different da, I think it's important to ask yourself, do I mean use a different D for everything? Or is it for one specific person I'm working for who needs one specific thing in that D or for instance, the Will Putney version, which is that they use pro tools for drum edits and logic for everything else, but when thinking of using more than one DA doesn't have to be this overwhelming, I have to become an expert in every single da. It's more like you should be a total expert in one DA and then have some functional knowledge of the other ones and enough general ability to where if you were to get one for a month and watch some videos, you could within a few hours know how to do or within an hour know how to do the thing you need to do, do the thing you need to do, and then you're good. The end.

Speaker 3 (00:57:02):

Yeah, totally.

Speaker 1 (00:57:04):

Yeah. It's one of those things that, okay, so when we were making this last doth record, I was, we are six people in six different cities, two different countries, and we have every song is like 200 plus tracks. There's a lot going on, and there was a lot of coordination involved with making sure that this person did their thing before it got to this person because they needed that person to have their thing done so that this person could use that as what they were going to track over, et cetera. Times six people for really, really complicated dense music and making sure there were no versioning errors, meaning that everyone was on the right version of the song.

(00:58:10):

It was a bit of a nightmare. So it was kind of like my job to make sure that everybody had the right thing and all the other dudes in my band use cubase, and we were having a few issues with the MIDI being one-to-one between, and that's a big deal when you're talking about 150 tracks of orchestra that are relying on that MIDI being accurate. And since we're not in the same place, I couldn't just walk over to another room and go to Jesse z Already's computer and make sure, so last summer, I taught myself enough Cubase to be able to verify all of the MIDI and handle all of the, like I am not the orchestrator, but making sure that all of the orchestral MIDI and all the synth MIDI and all that was the right version and that it was all proper and that there was nothing fucked up between the Pro tools and the Cubase version, which as people know when they import Tempo Maps or MIDI between dws, it should work. But sometimes you just get these weird

Speaker 4 (00:59:38):

Anomalies

Speaker 1 (00:59:40):

And when you have huge sessions of 200 plus tracks, the anomalies, there can be a lot more anomalies. They can get anonmized. So yeah, so I taught myself enough Cubase to be able to do that reliably so that what Jesse was getting was correct so that Jesse could send me back a Cubase session so that I wouldn't have to then import something weird into Pro Tools. And I learned that all in a night. So I guess what I'm saying is this doesn't have to be terrifying to people, so just know what you need to use the other D for and learn that thing and then just do that thing

Speaker 3 (01:00:32):

And then just use what you're comfortable with. Yeah,

Speaker 1 (01:00:35):

Exactly. So with Christian Donaldson, what happened there? He just hit you up?

Speaker 3 (01:00:43):

No, I hit him up.

Speaker 1 (01:00:44):

Oh yeah, you hit him. Okay.

Speaker 3 (01:00:46):

But I've known him for a little bit, so it wasn't as much of an out of the blue thing,

Speaker 1 (01:00:52):

But that's kind of the thing is people get to know you, word gets around, some people make recommendations, other people, you reach out to them, but that's basically how it works. Do you think being in a band is part of what's helped make that work for you?

Speaker 3 (01:01:15):

Yeah, absolutely. I think part of it is just, maybe not because I have the sickest mix or something, but maybe because they wanted dude from Inferior who's their favorite big to be part of their album, and that did give me a lot of work. I haven't been in the bands for the last year and a half, but I think that definitely helped. Your band

Speaker 1 (01:01:40):

Now is Ette.

Speaker 3 (01:01:43):

Yeah, Ettes been a project since about 2012. I think it's a band. I started with my wife, she does vocals, and we just put out our third album a couple of weeks ago now.

Speaker 1 (01:01:58):

Well, congrats.

Speaker 3 (01:01:59):

Thanks.

Speaker 1 (01:02:00):

Well, the thing is, I think that, and you tell me what you think, musicians trust, producers, engineers, mixers more if they are also musicians. Definitely. I know I do.

Speaker 3 (01:02:19):

Yeah, because some of the ideas you might put forward are something that you would do for your own music, so they might, which they respect, so they might be more inclined to go with you if you're a musician.

Speaker 1 (01:02:36):

When people ask me, how do I get my name out there as a mixer, Joel, I'm wondering what you think because people ask you that all the time too. One of the things that I often say is if you, obviously, let's just say you're in a situation where you have no clients, you have no prospects or clients. You live in the middle of nowhere. What have you got? Well, one thing you could do is put out your own music and make it sound as sick as possible. I mean, use your own music as a calling card. And even if you are in a scene around other people, if you do your own music and people like it and they think it sounds sick, that right there is a calling card. And then as it gets bigger, then people want to work with the dude from X band. There's no situation where having your own music hurts, I think. What do you think, Joel?

Speaker 2 (01:03:47):

A hundred percent agree. I mean, to me it's like building a band, if that makes sense. For example, we were talking about this the other day, Al, how many indie bands do you know that are assigned to labels that have millions of monthly listeners? I mean, they're out there and they crush it. And when you look at those groups and how they've done it, I mean their hustle is insane. So really, if you've got something, meaning if you're an audio professional mix, you're getting paid for, do people like how you hear? And then it's your name and reputation and what you've worked on. So if you can put something out there in the world that sounds awesome and you can hustle it out there, meaning you can get in front of a lot of people, I really, when people ask me how to become a mixer, I'm like, well, it takes time.

(01:04:28):

You don't just become a mixer. I recommend starting off as a producer because you can build relationships with people in a room. What's the easiest way to become a producer? Go get in a band and go play and meet other bands and hang out and get in the room with people and start writing, producing, doing tracks on spec, et cetera, which will build into clientele, which will then build into mixing clientele over some time. It's very hard to just start off as a mixer and just cold email or DM everybody and be like, let me mix your next song. And they're like, okay, cool. Well, I'm working with CLA. What are you going to bring to the table? Who are you? So it takes time, and I think that being in a band is just one of the best assets you can have because what do you do when you're in a band? You meet other bands and that is important.

Speaker 1 (01:05:12):

Yeah, absolutely. Alright, so we're starting to run out of time. Do you want to do a rapid fire question round?

Speaker 3 (01:05:23):

Sure. Your segment

Speaker 1 (01:05:25):

Social security number.

Speaker 2 (01:05:29):

Okay. So first thing that comes to mind, I got a couple five questions for you. What are your bus comp settings for your mixed bus? Meaning attack, release, and ratio.

Speaker 3 (01:05:41):

Okay, 10 milliseconds. Attack, auto release, two to one ratio.

Speaker 2 (01:05:47):

10. Auto, two to one. Interesting. Alright. Why

Speaker 3 (01:05:51):

I, because it's rapid fire. I mean, I like to experiment. It's not like that all the time.

Speaker 2 (01:05:59):

Two to one is a very interesting choice for heavy music. Next question, best new plugin that you've discovered recently?

Speaker 3 (01:06:06):

Oh, you're all a modeler.

Speaker 2 (01:06:08):

Okay. Favorite mix.

Speaker 1 (01:06:10):

Why? Wait, hold on. Hold on. I want to hear the why. Okay. There's, you mean the open source one?

Speaker 3 (01:06:17):

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:06:17):

Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:06:18):

Okay. There's so many sick captures and it's super easy to use and it's fun. I don't know. I've gotten a lot of good tones out of it.

Speaker 1 (01:06:27):

I mean, is there any other reasons? Okay. That's all the best reasons right there.

Speaker 3 (01:06:32):

Is that all the reasons?

Speaker 1 (01:06:33):

No, I'm saying that's all the best reasons, right There is. It sounds sick and it's fun. It works

Speaker 3 (01:06:38):

Five or six knobs on it.

Speaker 2 (01:06:40):

Okay. What is your favorite mix of all time and why?

Speaker 3 (01:06:44):

Oh, I don't know. It changes a lot. I would say

Speaker 2 (01:06:48):

Favorite mix right now.

Speaker 3 (01:06:50):

Favorite mix right now. I mean, I guess I'm just going to have to go with the black album or something. Just generic.

Speaker 1 (01:06:57):

Okay. I mean, no one can fuck with that one. Yeah. I mean you really can't. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:07:05):

Number one thing that you think a beginner should focus on when starting their career,

Speaker 3 (01:07:11):

Finding another career.

Speaker 2 (01:07:16):

But after they've done that,

Speaker 3 (01:07:18):

After they've done that

Speaker 1 (01:07:19):

Once, that other career failed,

Speaker 3 (01:07:21):

Once that one fails and they're just, let's see, learning how to edit. Everyone always needs an editor.

Speaker 2 (01:07:27):

It's true. Okay. Final question. What qualities do you think make a great assistant

Speaker 3 (01:07:34):

Hyper OCD? Attention to detail and timeliness because you can't have anyone just sitting around waiting on you. Anytime I take one extra day to do something, I'm like, I start to get super panicky, like, oh, he's probably just sitting there waiting on me.

Speaker 1 (01:07:53):

What kind of turnaround do you aim for?

Speaker 3 (01:07:59):

It varies. So with Dave, he usually will bring the drummer in on a Monday. We'll say they'll do sounds that day and then start tracking Tuesday. So everything they do Tuesday, he'll send me Tuesday night. So Wednesday I'm doing, I'll make editing what he did the day before, and then we go for about four days or so until the album's done. And then over the weekend I'll finish up converting audio to Middy. So then the next Monday, guitarist can come in and, or actually he'll do a basic drum mix, and then they can start guitars either that day or the next day. With the stuff I do for Dan, I usually try to turn it around in a day or two, but the stuff I do for him kind of varies but quick. Do it as quick as you possibly can because no one wants to wait.

Speaker 1 (01:08:54):

Let me just say that. That right there. I agree. When I've hired people or seen people get hired or not hired, the thing that didn't matter was if they need to learn a way of doing things, no problem. It's the how quickly and how much attention to detail is the person putting in. If they're making a mistakes happen, and that's fine. If the mistake is because they just don't know how to do something, okay, you can teach 'em if it's because, yeah, they don't know. They're not comfortable in this software. Okay. You show 'em how to do that, but then those types of mistakes aside, if you're getting bad edits or sloppy edits or things are just taking too long or for whatever reason they don't know how to upload properly, that kind of stuff, that's the stuff where you just don't get called back.

Speaker 3 (01:10:04):

Right. Also, as far as the turnaround time goes, it depends if it's cattle decapitation or if it's chemists. There's about a hundred times more notes on one of those bands than the other.

Speaker 1 (01:10:20):

So cattle decapitation would be same day

Speaker 3 (01:10:23):

Cattle decap, same day, for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:10:25):

Yeah. Chemist would be next week.

Speaker 3 (01:10:28):

I actually did that one on tour in the back of a van bumping up and down cattle decapitation.

Speaker 1 (01:10:36):

Oh my God. That sounds intense.

Speaker 3 (01:10:40):

Then getting to the venue and just listening on headphones when everyone's around, you drinking beer and yelling and shit, so I wouldn't do it that way again.

Speaker 1 (01:10:53):

I mean, you got to do what you got to do.

Speaker 3 (01:10:54):

Yeah, that's true. I always say yes too.

Speaker 1 (01:10:58):

That's huge.

Speaker 3 (01:10:59):

That's another thing.

Speaker 1 (01:11:02):

Yeah. There comes a point where if you get to the point where you have to say no, then congratulations that if you're at a point where if you don't turn something down, other things are going to suffer, then congratulations, you're winning. But in general, the always say yes mentality is huge. I think

Speaker 3 (01:11:40):

Definitely. It's got to be like a death in the family or something. That's why you can't do something, but otherwise say yes

Speaker 1 (01:11:50):

And you just ask them to die another day.

Speaker 3 (01:11:53):

Die another day.

Speaker 1 (01:11:54):

Yeah. Does it have to be today? I got to edit these fucking kicks. Fucking do it some other day. All right. I think it was a good place to end the episode, but Mike, thank you very much for taking the time to hang out with us. It's been a pleasure.