Maor Appelbaum: Training Your Ears, The Great Converter Debate, and Setting Your Rates

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

Welcome to the URM podcast. I'm your host, Joel Wanasek. Today we have acclaimed and legendary mastering engineer Maor Applebaum on us with today, and fortunately Eyal will not be joining us, but Maor, how are you doing today, buddy? Good to see you.

Speaker 2 (00:00:14):

I'm doing great. It's very windy outside, so good thing I don't have any windows open you would hear, but everything is good here. Thank you for having me on the podcast again. Always

Speaker 1 (00:00:30):

A pleasure to have you and you and I tend to go down to some pretty long rabbit holes at the most obscure hours of the night, like a Tuesday or it just happens.

Speaker 2 (00:00:41):

I think we changed the terminology from rabbit hole to bear Cave because we really dig deep.

Speaker 1 (00:00:49):

We do. So I got a lot of things I want to talk to you about today. One thing that kind struck me as I was kicking around the internet today is I want to talk about the art of listening and how to listen for subtle changes in things because I often have found in my experience, and maybe you can speak from yours, that when I have people come over and they're like, oh, I can't hear the difference between this or that. For example, a setting on a plugin or maybe how a certain thing on a compressor works or I can't hear a summing mixer versus a non, and I have people come over and they're in my studio and I show them. I'm like, here's what you should listen for. Here's what you should listen for. Listen to this, pay attention to this. Then they hear it, it's like the light goes on, then they have a revelation and they're like, wow, that totally changed how I hear music. So do you have any advice for people who are out there and maybe testing their plugins or gear or trying to make more objective decisions about the tools that they're using and what effect they have on their music and how they can develop their listening skills?

Speaker 2 (00:01:47):

Well, listening is very similar to viewing. Okay, it's different senses, it's different nerves, optic nerves compared to audio nerves, but at the end of the day, it's about perception. So we have to remember that if you come with the notion of I can't hear a difference, then immediately you're probably going to not hear a difference because you're starting from that point. Okay? The beginning thing with hearing differences is one, everything makes a difference, but it doesn't mean that it's noticeable enough. Some differences are really little, super subtle, and there might not be apparent enough due to one, focusing our own focus, and two, it could be a monitoring situation where in one place the same setup, you could hear the difference, and in another place the room has issues and cancels it or the speakers don't have enough resolution or conversion or whatever is going there is blocking that.

(00:03:01):

So we have to take those things in account that some of them are dependent on the environment, which will be the monitoring speakers, could be the conversion, could be the room, could be all three, right? All three of those. And also it could be where the focal point is, okay, you might not hear a difference because you're focusing on a kick drum, but the difference might be on the upper range of the vocals and you're just focusing on one thing, and we zoom in audio just like we zoom in video. If you point at something and you're looking at it, that's your focal point and that's what's going to be affecting how you listen to it. Same way. So if you are aware to that, that's the beginning of being able to be critical listening to things. Second thing, as a mixer, you're going to focus on certain things where a mastering engineer might focus on other things.

(00:04:11):

For example, mastering engineer looks or listens in the overall envelope of things where a mixing engineer might be more focused on how their kick is, how their snare is, how their vocal is, okay. Now it doesn't mean one is wrong or right, it's just what someone listens to. And it could be that the mixing engineer might be very focused on something in the snare where the listener might not even focus on that, or the mastering engineer might not focus on that too. Who's right? Well, they're all right. The mastering engineer, the listener, and the mixing engineer question is where do you put your eggs in Thewe basket? If you're very focused on that, how that snare sounded and it bothers you, but everything else sounds good, then are you doing the right thing focusing on that, or you're going to do things that are going to be bringing diminishing returns. It's very important to listen to that, and that's why when you're a mixer, you're going to listen to a mixer way of listening to it where you're a mastering engineer. It's going to be different. Now, if you do mixing a mastering, you're still going to be focusing out in a certain way because your mind is listening to it in the way that you like to listen to it.

(00:05:38):

Same thing could be for an orchestrator. He can listen to a song and say, oh, that violin is bothering him. Where? Okay, well, to the producer, it might not. So we have to remember that we come to something from something, and I know it's very generic what I said, but it's true. We come to a song from where our position is, and the way to improve it is to understand first of all where we're coming from, and then maybe we can do outside looking in approach. I see that a lot of times with testing gear in my studio. I have a lot of gear, both analog and digital, and I test the stuff and some things you could hear immediately how they differ from others. Sometimes you don't hear that much, and it could be program dependent. There's songs that would not reveal much differences between the gear, where others will be like, oh, wow, I really hear how on this song, this piece of gear is shining or not. It's the same way as here, I just put glasses on. Okay, now I see things differently, but at the same time, I also notice things in a different way, and they might bother me like, oh, okay, now I see this very clear and now my focus is there. It's like a magnifying glass in a way.

Speaker 3 (00:07:11):

Hey, everybody, I want to take a quick break from this episode to talk to you about URM Academy now. So if you're new here, URM Academy is the best online school for metal and rock producers and musicians. When you join, you get a whole access to a range of content. There's nail the mix, which I'm guessing most of, and that's where we bring on a different artist and a different mixer every month to walk through a mix and give you the raw multitracks. And we've had on mixers like Will Putney, ands Borin, Tom Lord, algae with artists like Bring me the Horizon, Shuga, periphery, opec, even Nickelback and tons more. If it's under the heavy music umbrella, as I like to call it, we cover it. You also get our Mix Lab tutorials, which are little bite size tutorials about very specific topics. We have over a hundred of those now.

(00:08:09):

So if you don't have the time for a nail to mix session or an entire course, you just want to find one tidbit of info to help solve a problem, that's what Mix Labs are for. We also have exclusive members, only Facebook and Discord groups where you can make friends with and talk to thousands of people from all over the world who do the exact same thing as you. And what's super awesome about our community is that it's troll free. We kick trolls out. It's like an Oasis online, and also our instructors are part of the community and they interact with everybody. So you can not only make friends, but you can I guess socialize and learn from the best. Also, we have URM Enhanced, which is our more advanced membership tier. The main focus of that is our Fast Track library, which are some very, very, very detailed courses on everything from editing drums to post-production effects, automation, creating impulse responses, working with low tune guitars and more. We have over 70 of these. It's actually insane how deep and comprehensive the fast tracks are. And when you join Nail the Mix or URM Enhanced, you also get access to Riff Hard, our online school for metal guitarists with hundreds of lessons from artists such as Animals as Leaders, spirit Box, Ark Spire, Jason Richardson, and many more. So go to URM Academy. Let's get back into this episode.

Speaker 1 (00:09:37):

Do you think that hurts people that are doing everything all in as like there's a tendency right now because a lot of people are coming in and let's say producing at home or producers are doing all in where the engineer, they're the producer, they're the mixer, the mastering engineer, and they're doing the entire production. And I think one thing that resonated with me a lot that you told me is that because I do do a lot of mastering, but I'm not a mastering engineer. I shouldn't say I do a lot of mastering and nowhere near as much as you do, but I do enough of it a year. But one thing you said to me once is like, well, the difference between a mastering engineer and a mixing mastering engineer is the mastering engineer always approaches it like a mastering engineer and a lot of people who also mix that influences their mastering and they try to master like a mix engineer through the ears of a mix engineer. So what do you think about that?

Speaker 2 (00:10:29):

The truth is out there, and it's true. It doesn't mean it's disqualifying what they do. What it does mean is that you always have to remember where the point source is. If you're a producer and you're mastering, you're always producing in your master, which can be good or bad. It's a fact if you're a mixer and you're mastering, you're mastering from a mixer perspective, even if you are only mastering the project, and it's just because what you do as part of your intention in the music, it doesn't mean that you can't master good if you're a mixer, okay? You can master very well if you're a mixer, but it always means where you're coming from originally. Okay? It's the same thing. If I was mixing now, I would probably mix from a mastering engineer's perspective, which means I would probably mix from a whole, let's call it two bus or overall.

(00:11:26):

And it would mean that I would listen to things in a more macro way, which will maybe work for me, but someone else might say, Hey, it sounds cool, but I think if you do this and this and this, it's going to make the vocals pop up more and this pop out more. And that would be from a mixing standpoint. Now, back in the day, I did some mixing. I mixed on gear like consoles and stuff, and I mixed in the box too, but I'm not considering myself a mixing engineer today because today's mixing is involving editing, tuning, vocal tuning base, whatever tuning it is and a bunch of other stuff. And I don't see myself as a mixer. I can give feedback to a mixer and say, I'm hearing some harshness maybe in the vocals, or I'm hearing the bass guitar needs to do that, or maybe the symbols are in a certain way, but that's because I'm listening to it in overall, and I can spot those things and maybe I can give feedback frequency wise or ideas, which I tend to do if needed.

(00:12:37):

If those things hinder the result of mastering, then it's better to do them in the mix than try to fix them in the mastering. But sometimes you can't do that in the mix and you have to deal with it in the mastering stage. But the communication sure helps when you can say those things. But again, I'm not the mixer. I can say what I'm hearing is popping out, but at the end of the day, the mixing engineer knows exactly what he has in terms of balances, EQs, reverbs, all the effects. That's a mixing engineer's world. I can only say if things are popping weird, but if they're not popping weird and it's aesthetics, that's totally fine. And sometimes it's the artist that likes to have that vocal very distorted or something wacky, and then the mixer will say, well, that's what the artist wants. Okay, then we'll leave it as is.

(00:13:34):

So I truly think that everything we do comes from what we originally do. Now there are mixing engineers that left the mixing to mastering, and in their beginning days of doing that, they're still thinking in the mixer mind, but in time they graduated from one thing to something else, which mean I call it graduation, not because they went upper in what they are, but more like they finished that phase of movement from doing one thing to the other, and now they're in the other position and now they're from great mixing engineer. Now they shifted from being the mixing engineer, now they're mastering engineers, and it's because they've done so much work post mixing where they left that stage and moved along and did a lot of the trial and error and improvement and moved to become mixing from a mixing engineer that was mastering. Now they became mastering engineers that don't have that mindset of mixing engineer in a mastering perspective, but now they have a mastering engineer perspective and that works for them.

(00:14:54):

And now they are mastering engineers. So there's a transitional period if they moved from one to another and left it and now they're doing differently. But if they still do both, they're always going to have still that mindset, which can be good or bad that that's whatever you want to look at it. If it helps you get results, great if not, but we always have to remember that's that point. If you're a director of photography and now you're doing audio, you're still going to have the mindset of a director of photography when you're doing audio till you leave that director of photography and doing audio, and now you're focused in that, but it doesn't mean it's bad. Different perspectives can help you develop different work habits. I was a broadcasting engineer where there there's no vibe, there's no coloration, there's no style. It's very pure. Do the vocal sound clear enough? Yes, that's it. It's very dry.

(00:16:18):

Some might do it better than others because they have a better perspective, but you're really doing technical work. There's art into it in getting it sounding better, but the aesthetics, you throw them out the window. But in broadcasting, there's also if you broadcast the live band or live performance, then you come from the musical side, you still want to keep that musicality and sonics that fit the artist. But if you're just broadcasting voiceover, then you want to get that voice sounding right and good, but you're not going to be too artistic unless it was part of the requisite to make it right. And there is a place for that. There is a place for picking the right mic and the right for the right talent to make them sound better, and that's the artistic side and technical side, but that's only on the high level of getting it sounding right for them. But if it's just standard, you got a level ear mic or a desktop mic to record. Okay, let's call it pure.

Speaker 1 (00:17:50):

Yeah, it's interesting because I think about my own journey and you and I have worked together a lot in the last, what, two and a half, three years, something like that. It's definitely about two and a half, three years, somewhere in that range. And I used to master a lot of my own work, and now I am dead set against it. I really, really hate mastering anything that I mix because I take my mix as far as I can possibly take it, and then when I turn it in, I know as long as it's not like, Hey, you have two hours to mix this and this is it. It's a Friday, it needs to be due to distro. As long as I'm not up against some ridiculous timeline, you always, I take something as far as I can possibly take it, and then I raise my hands up and I say, I'm done.

(00:18:31):

And I found that instead of trying to approach something from a solo, I have to do everything or else I'm losing money mindset. I've discovered that if I want to compete at the level that I want to compete at, I need more than my brain on it. I need other people who are better specialists, who are better to help take my work and elevate it. I've already taken it as far as I can possibly taken it, but having outside perspectives. So I think going from that type of mentality and then switching to a team mentality and more of like I want multiple people to touch everything that I'm mixing and as well as working with producers that value hiring a mixer instead of trying to mix it themselves and then master it themselves. Because as you go up the totem pole in the industry and you work at a much, much higher level, I think what happens is you get into a position where now you're competing against teams and everybody on that team is a superstar.

(00:19:28):

They're all phenomenal, the best of the best. And if you're one person and now you've got to go up against say, Howard Benson's team, good luck. It's really, really, really hard to beat Howard Benson at songwriting and arranging and picking the right song for the artists. It's really hard to beat Mike Plotnik off at engineering. It's really hard to beat, say CLA at mixing. It's really hard to beat Ted Jensen at mastering. So it's like when you build these teams, whether you like it or not, other people have them, and as if you want to work on that caliber of artists, you have to go up against them. So it was really a big shift for me because I got to a point in my career where I'm like, okay, I want to compete at a higher level in this, and in order to do that, I need help. So what do you think about the importance of a team like building a team in this and when does it make sense maybe for somebody who's like a producer sitting there that wants to do everything to start thinking more team oriented? I know it's a lot of questions, but how might that also be holding them back by not making that decision early enough?

Speaker 2 (00:20:32):

Well, there is a possibility for everything to happen as a person on a solo level, you can make a hit and it will blow up. Yes, we've seen that happen, and there's possibilities of the opposite that it's not going to happen or you have a team and it doesn't happen, and it does that. The variables here are they're really dependent on stuff that's beyond our control. Let's just put the cards on the table. What makes a song successful is not the song. It's everything that's putting the song to the audience. You can write the best song in the world and get it the best production, but if there's no good marketing to feed the audience with that song, then it's just going to be a great song that nobody discovered. So if you think of the whole industry, the team could be all around production arrangement, mix, recording, editing, assisting, vocal tuning, every little part, mastering distribution, radio, airplane.

(00:21:46):

It's all a team. Overall, I think that the benefit of working with people is one, you are creating a community. A community is very important because the business works in a community. It's strength in a pack when you work solo all the time, the more solo people are, the less community there is. And when I say community, I'm not talking about Facebook groups and people talking about, Hey man, I just bought this plug and it's amazing. You should check it out too. That's cool. Yeah, that's kind of like people hanging on talking about records, could be talking about plugins. Yeah, that's the same thing. Community is serving our own self and serving others because when we do that, we extend the abilities of everybody. We extend the knowledge, we extend the money transfer too. Think of it this way, if a producer is now hiring you, he's putting money in your pocket. You as a mixer, hiring a mastering engineer, you're putting money in their pocket.

(00:22:58):

It's share the wealth. When money is traveling between different pockets, it's expanding its ways of working, and it also solidifies the fact that no one is one island, okay? It's continents, it it's seas, it's states, it's countries. You're building it bigger. That's a bigger thinking. And when you have that bigger thinking, you actually keep that industry alive because you're letting room for specialists to do their craft, and you're letting room for more people to collaborate with each other. It's not becoming one guy doing everything. Think of it, if it was one guy doing everything, there were no bands. It would be one guy doing everything. Now, there are multi instrumentalists and there are people who produce music on their own and they don't need to know how to play anything. They can put all in midi and make guitars and midi drums and all that, but in the big picture, they're part of the big picture that can happen.

(00:24:10):

I also think that adding specialists or external people to the project is spicing up it. It's like, for example, it's like if you eat every day the same dish, you might like it, it's great, but then a friend tells you, Hey, you should try this. And he brings it over and you're like, oh, wow, I never tried that dish. So now you expanded what you like and adding the right spice can make a song that sounds good to better. Okay. And like you said, you deliver the best that you can. Can it be better? Yes, it can. If you find the right people to work with and whatever, two, five, 10%, it's adding maybe 20, it's a hundred percent because a hundred percent is what comes out. So if someone added 5% to it, that 5% is equal to a hundred percent at the end because that's what people listen to.

(00:25:15):

So if you are mixing added 50%, it added a hundred percent. Everybody who adds something, it's a hundred percent, but it's not like they did a hundred percent, but that five to 20 to 30, whatever percentage is added is in the whole picture. And if that a hundred percent sounds better than a hundred percent of without that person in because they added 5%, but before that they didn't, nobody added, but that picture was that picture, but someone likes that a hundred percent with it in then it's a win-win situation. I don't look at it as, oh, it's my money in my pocket. I look at it as how do we keep this industry alive? Because as time goes by, the tools become available to everybody. But what happens later on is those tools are going to be just thrown out and then AI is going to take that place. So the longer we keep our industry, our community, our share the wealth thing happening, the more we can keep doing what we like doing. But if everybody thinks solo, well guess what? Solo doesn't live on its own for a long time. It gets replaced.

(00:26:43):

A lot of times solo records for band members don't become that successful as the band records, and some have a solo career. True, but a lot of times they have to bring other people in. So there's always paradigms to prove, well, the solo worked better. Yes it did. Maybe because he had less politics to deal with and less drama. But at the end of the day, we want to keep our profession, we want to keep our livelihood, we want to be able to pay our bills and do what we love. And if everybody goes solo in a few years, you'll see that solo is not going to keep on going because it's going to be replaced. So I think the benefit is not just on an artistic and technical level, it's on a community level. It's on a professional level, and at the end of the day, just like you said, you got it to the best.

(00:27:44):

You got it and then you send it out and it came out better. You liked it, the band liked it, the management liked it, the label loved it, the fans loved it. So at the end of the day, we elevated it and took it to the next level, and that's what we as professionals, I would say, aim to go to that place where we're always bumping up it jumping from step one to step two, doing these quantum leaps, elevating the project so everybody's happy and everybody gets excited, and if you can make people get even more excited, then that's the best feeling you can get.

Speaker 1 (00:28:32):

That leads me to a interesting topic here. Let's talk about developing as a mixer. The cool thing about talking to you that's always really interesting is you've worked with some of the best mixers on the planet as well as everything in between, all the way down to people that have just started mixing in the last year. So your knowledge and experience of working with different mixers as well as producers and et cetera, gives you a valuable insight. Like me as a professional mixer, if I want to talk to a friend about mixing or say doing what we do on nail the mix, we can sit down and talk about mixing, but you're limited to the person that you're talking to. Whereas when you're out there and you're mastering for let's just say 500 different mixers of all skill levels and backgrounds, and you're getting a certain bird's eye view from a mastering engineer's perspective that a mixer is just not going to acquire and not going to have. So it's very interesting, some of the conversations you and I kind of have off camera and what do you think are some of the biggest mistakes and ways that a beginner can develop? What are some of the things that you see people doing and how can they avoid them or what should they watch out for?

Speaker 2 (00:29:44):

I would say the first thing I see, and I understand why it is, but I think a lot of times it creates a culprit later on, is they aim to sound like a certain mixer. Now I totally understand that. I mean, that's like role models. If you're an athlete, you want to be the most famous athlete. So you learn their way or follow their footsteps. But we have to also understand that when you do that, you're not sounding like them. They sound like them because they develop that. You can take the biggest mixers in the world and study their career. A lot of times you'll find that you're not studying their real career.

(00:30:33):

You're basically starting to learn their later career, which means the career that they became famous as. Okay. There's a lot of big mixers that if you go to their really early catalog, they don't sound like what people know, they sound like, and it's because they were starting and evolving and they were really good even then. But their sound, what people say, oh, that's that sound. It didn't come in those early years. It came way later on when they had done so much work that the sound has shifted from being a good mixer, great mixer to a sound that is affiliated with their work. And that's what people usually relate to. They don't know all that before or understand how that process was, and they try to mimic that sound, and they have to remember that sound is something they developed through a lot of years of work, which was combining perspectives, gear choices, artists that gave them the feedback and they went with what the artist liked, and that became their sound too. So when you're trying to mimic someone's work, be aware that that work came after a lot of years, and if you're trying to mimic that sound, it's going to be hard for you to develop your own sound aiming to a certain thing. What I would say is try to learn not their sound, but their work ethic.

(00:32:20):

What brought them to that? Was it because the clients that they were working with gravitated to that sound and that's what brought that sound? Was it because that era they were working on certain type of gear and that brought them that sound? Was it a trend that they were part of and it blew up? Was it a style that was in its diapers where it was very experimental and you could go either way? It worked and then it blew up and then it became more conservative like, oh, this is the path. So try to learn those things because those things will teach you way, way more than try to mimic their sound because their sound might be hip for now and it might be hip for the type of clients they work with, but then when you try to apply that to something else, it might not work.

(00:33:25):

Working on your own sound is a long process, and as a mastering engineer in my career, I never followed even my mentors, which I never had by the way, because I wasn't mentored by any mastering engineer. So who were my mentors? Good question. Well, my mentors were my clients. I just worked with them. If it sounded bad for them, I tried to make it sound good for them. If it sounded good for them, great, or if we needed a tweak, we did that. Those were really my mentors. I can say I look up to a lot of mastering engineers, of course. I mean, you grew up in this industry, you listen to records, you're like, oh, I love that record. It sounds great. I dig it, or I dig the vibe of it. So I never chased anyone's sound because one, I don't know how to do it.

(00:34:24):

How would I chase their sound? Try to listen to a few records and try to get that curve. Now these engineers that I look up to have done so many records and they're all different, so I wouldn't get the curve if you want to call it, and they know how to do it. I don't have their knowledge. They have their knowledge. I can just say, well, they do it really well. So I think it's very important to develop your own thing, and it's good to look up to people, it's good to learn from them, but don't chase their sound. There's going to be a point where you're just going to sound like a cheap copy of them or a copy of them if someone hires you because you're a cheap copy of them or a copy of them. The reason I say cheap copy is because if they could, they would afford them, they would go to them, and if they can't go to them, they'll go to you because you're cheaper. At the end of the day, they want their sound, not your sound, and you're giving them their sound. In a way, you are probably going to stay in that place for a while because you're going to repeat that.

(00:35:40):

If you want to go out of that loop, find the things that work with you, find those bands that can benefit from your sound and not from a clone, easier to access version of someone else. I think that's the way to approach it, because you're an individual. You have hobbies, you have food that you like, you have games that you, that applies to you as an audio engineer too. I don't have one thing I, I have a bunch of things I like. So when a project comes in, if it's in the right place, I'll keep it in the right place. If it's not, then I'll either suggest ideas, like feedback to the mixer, fix this or that, or I'll try to work with it as is and bring it to that place. But the magic really is understanding where that person that brings the tracks to you, if he's a producer, engineer, mixer, whatever it is, if it's in the right place, then know that it's in the right place and bring it home.

(00:36:57):

If it's not, know how to bring it to the next place. And if you are doing copy clone, copy clone, it's going to be very static. It's not going to move as much, and your development will be very static as well. So I think the best advice really is understand it's a long road. Don't try to take shortcuts by, oh, I'm going to sound like him. No, you want a shortcut. Here's a shortcut. Listen to the records that you like the most. Listen to the records that your client likes the most and figure if there's any similarities there. If there are similarities, figure if that's because they like that sound of the mixer, for example, or it's because they do the same type of music. If they do the same type of music, you have a lot of leeway. You can play around with sounds, but if they like the sound of that mix specifically, then either you have to chase that sound because they put you in that spot or you say, Hey guys, you know, how about we try something original?

(00:38:17):

How about we build a sound for you guys? And if they accept it, you're lucky. You're really lucky because then you have a place of growth. And I remember, I don't want to name some names here, but true, I worked with a lot of big names and small names and intermediate. I remember one time I was talking to a very, very successful, very big producer mixer and asked him about a band that he just mixed. And I said, so you just mixed a really big band as it excites you? And he said to me, no. I'm like, why not? He says, well, because a lot of people mix them already and they already have their thing going. I like to mix something that's new and fresh and nobody had their thing on it already, where it gives me the opportunity to really give them the sound. I was like, oh, that's an interesting approach. So he didn't disqualify the band that he worked with. He was happy to mix with them, but it didn't excite him working with a fresh band that was not established yet where he can put his sound on it and be part of that success.

Speaker 1 (00:39:28):

So what about the intermediates now? So I think that's amazing advice and it even carries over, but if you're an intermediate mixer or producer, mixer, whatever, you've been in the game for a while, say 10 years, 15 years, you're established or you're starting to get there and you kind of want to break into the higher tier, what advice would you give them in terms of development?

Speaker 2 (00:39:51):

Okay, so first of all, let's start with this 10, 15 years in the business a lot. Okay, that's not small time.

Speaker 1 (00:39:57):

Okay, sorry. Well, maybe five to 10, five to 12, okay.

Speaker 2 (00:40:00):

Because the reason I'm saying that is in 10, 15 years you learn a lot.

Speaker 1 (00:40:05):

I mean, yeah, you can learn a lot in a year, right? Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:40:07):

Right, exactly. So quantify a year of learning times the amount of year, it's a lot. But let's say you're in the first five years. The thing that I would say that will really make the difference is the quantity. And it's a weird thing to say because we always think of quality versus quantity, but in your really beginning stages, you got to have quantity because you got to learn how things happen when they come to you. And I did this, how it pops up in your face. You can work with one band and make an amazing sounding record, and then it comes the second band, it's crap.

(00:41:00):

Or it will take you a bunch of years to get a really good sounding record. And yeah, people can come to you because of that, but then it might not work in the beginning years. You got to have quantity because you got to feel what's out there. Okay? Think of it this way. You might not do your best work in the first few years, but it might be an opportunity for you to get your name out there and get people coming to you. And basically you're going to learn a lot from mistakes then. So I think it's important to get clients, and it doesn't matter if it's free or paid work, you need to get experience in the beginning years just to know what is coming through the door the next five years afterwards. Yeah, you're going to do some refinement the next five years after that. Yeah, you're going to do the finishing touches as the years goes by, you learn more, figure out things, you get better, you refine your craft. But the first five years, just do all in. Just bring stuff in. I mean, really the best advice that I've ever gotten was think of it as you're now a business. I don't know, a carpenter or you're a air conditioning installer. You just need to get the work in because you need to gain some experience.

(00:42:35):

Doing one job really well is great, but that's one experience. It will give you a lot of knowledge, but you have to learn how to work with clients. One client could be very nitpicky and you can be like, oh man, I worked with the hardest people in the world. I know how to do it. But then comes someone in and he's not that picky, but at the same time, he knows what he wants and he could say, nah, it's not there. And you'd be like, what do you mean it's not there? Well, he doesn't feel it. Go decipher what that means. And he might not be even picky. He just might say It's not feeling right. And it might not be like the guy who's like 0.7 of a DB on the snare and 0.3 on the vocal. He might just be like, Hey, bro, I don't get it. And you're like, what do you don't get? I don't know. Vocals don't sound right. He might be like a three DB level difference, but that's why it's important to gain experience, communicate, figure out things, bring stuff in, even if you don't make money, education costs.

(00:43:59):

I think that's probably, it's the most practical advice I can give someone in starting position.

Speaker 1 (00:44:09):

I love that. One thing I say, I think when you're mixing, I think mixing a lot of songs is one of the best ways to get better quickly in terms of improving your raw skills. Because if you spend, and I see this all the time at Nail the Mix, so we'll have a new song every month. And I know you're not a mixer mower, so you may not know what we do or how we do it, but every month we have a new band that comes on and I'll people sit down for an entire month and work on one mix and then submit it to the competition. And I think to myself, I love and I admire the desire to try to attain perfection, but then I think about what I do in the real world, and it's like if I have more than a few days to turn in a mix, that doesn't happen very often to me.

(00:44:52):

A lot of times in the chain, the mixer, the mastering engineer are kind of getting stuff turned in on the last possible day before it goes to distro. It's kind like Thursday afternoon, I get the files. It's like, Hey, Mauer, can I send you a file at 4:00 PM la time so we can get it to distro by five? As I'm turning in the mix 30 seconds before then, you know what I mean? That's just the reality of what happens with certain producers. So I think mixing a lot of songs is good instead of just working on it. Because every time you mix a song, it's like one set of variables, like math equations you're solving for a certain problem. It's like we have this guitar tone with this bass tone, this synth, this piano, this vocal, this drum sound in this room or programmed or whatever.

(00:45:36):

And now I have to mix those variables and try to get to sound the best I can. And I spend all month doing that. I'm learning really well how to mix one song. And again, I appreciate people's effort and dedication, but what I wish I would've communicated more is that that's great. But maybe instead of doing that, maybe set a time limit and just be like, all right, I'm going to spend a half day on this song and then I'm going to mix something else today. Because now you're mixing two sets of variables. Or in a month, maybe you could just go through and mix 20 songs, even if they're two hours a pop. And as somebody who's not super experienced, now, you're throwing 20 different sets of variables at yourself in a month as opposed to just one. And I feel like I've seen it time and time again, people progress much faster because they're learning to solve different sets of problems.

(00:46:20):

They're learning to create different types of interactions. They're finding their sound, they're finding things that they like. They're running into problems that they want to smash their head against the wall in frustration, and they get through them and then they move on to something else that's maybe easier, or maybe they get something that's even harder after that. So I'm a huge fan of that, and I think that's great advice. Okay, so the next thing I want to ask you here, in terms of developing as a mixer, what about mixers that are pros that are really good at what they're doing and they want to become great, meaning they're putting out great work, they're established. People know who they are, they're on their way, but they want to be like S tier mixers, you know what I mean? What advice would you give somebody in terms of development if they're at that level?

Speaker 2 (00:47:04):

So if you look at it a scale from zero to a hundred, the higher you go in the number, the closer you're to a hundred, but then there's less and less numbers. If you're above 50 and you're 60, now you got 40. If you're 70, you got 30. If you're 80, you got 20.

Speaker 1 (00:47:26):

Here's what I like real quick, and I don't mean to interrupt, but even in the top one, there's still a hundred percent range. So carry on.

Speaker 2 (00:47:34):

So anytime you're, and I think that's one of those philosophy talks we are always thinking is that anytime you enter a certain stage, you think, okay, there's 10 more stages. No, there's a hundred more stages. There's always leveling up the game, leveling up the game. But the difference is the quantification of them is those numbers now become very small. Okay, here's a good analogy. 20 hertz to 20,000 hertz once you pass the one K. Now the increments between the frequencies one to 2K is now a thousand from one K to 2K is a thousand increments, where between 100 and 200 is only a hundred, right? So those little quantification, quantifying points, now they're smaller, but they're small increments. So what happens is the higher you go, now you're starting to talk with very little numbers.

(00:48:38):

They jump high, but they're actually small, which means that the deviations are really little. So when you get to let's say 70%, now the last 30%, those are really tough, 30% changes. Why? Because there's so little. So every little jump there is like, oh, wow, now I have better kick. Now I have better base. Where under that 70, it's like, oh, wow. Well now my old balance is better. So when you go up, you're starting to refine those little elements. It's like refining a diamond, okay, there's a lot of good diamond cutters will get to a certain point which is acceptable and considered really good. But then the upper echelon, that's when you really have those little elements. And the funny thing is the prices jump high there too. Even with cars, when you go above a certain level, now these are really expensive and the feature sets are maybe you have a maybe different type of steering wheel, or at the end of the day, the car drives from here to here, right? From A to Z. But we have to remember that just like we eat with our eyes that saying, you see the dish and you're like, oh, now I'm going to eat it. Our appetite is always bigger and it's always about baby steps to move up. If you eat the whole meal big time, you might get full. Okay? So the way I look at it is don't try to jump huge amounts when you're already big, because every little increment there is a change.

(00:50:35):

When you're less good, your increments have to be bigger. But when you're really good, your increments are smaller. It's inverse. So it's okay to take it step by step, and it's like, oh, you know what? Now that I'm working like this, I decided to take all these plugins out and put these ones, they sound better, or hardware, oh, I'm pulling all that stuff out. Now I'm putting the better gear in. Oh, now I hear better separation. Okay.

Speaker 1 (00:51:09):

I spent two hours this morning mauer testing the difference between a 90 hertz and 150 hertz side chain on a single compressor. Well, it made a huge difference in the imaging and the way something felt, but it was worth it because now I know, but keep going.

Speaker 2 (00:51:27):

But that's a good example. You already have that compressor, which is not a cheap compressor, which you already invested in, and now you studied something that's very small, but it made a difference for you. Okay? Someone else who might be just starting would not maybe do that test. For him, it would be just hooking it up, do I like it or not? Maybe not even putting it in. So that's a good example where you put the time and effort to level up your game, but it was a small increment, but for you, it made a difference. It might not have made the difference for the client who would probably hear it, but the final result is better. So for them when they're getting it, it's better. And maybe if you would play them the two versions, maybe they would hear the difference and gravitate to the better one, and maybe not. But for you, it made your work better.

Speaker 1 (00:52:24):

I mean, the producer called me immediately and was like, dude, whatever you did, that was great. Don't ever. So it worked. Yeah, it was absolutely worth doing.

Speaker 2 (00:52:34):

Okay, so that's a little increment, right? You just changed the side chain on that compressor and it opened up the field better and he felt better with the result. Now you probably wouldn't do that when you were just starting out.

Speaker 1 (00:52:49):

No, I would've just copied the setting off the internet because my favorite mixer does it and blindly applied it to what I was doing and never because I would've known what I was listening for, going back to what we originally started talking about.

Speaker 2 (00:53:02):

So that's the thing about getting your game up, as long as you know that there's baby steps there, even when you're on the top, there's always small increments. And I do that too. For example, when I work on a piece of music, I check it on different converters, which converter I think works better for the song. Now, is that a necessity? For some it might not be even close to important. For me it is, and I put a lot of time and effort in doing it, and it makes my work better because I make a decision based on what I'm hearing and how it responds to the music and to the gear and the listener if he likes it, great. Now, there were times where I was like, I get two options here. Let me give you two options and you decide what you like. And they might say, you know what? Second one, I liked more. And I'll be like, okay, good thing I did these two because to me both sound good, but the second one speaks better to you. And to me, both work good, but maybe the second one speaks as well. So the game becomes tougher when you go up the scale because now you're refining with the most finesse tools that you got in your disposal, and now you're just carving it even better. And it same also happens with artists like a really good vocalist.

(00:54:32):

They might be sensitive to the type of microphone, they'll be like, they sound really good, but now they hear that that mic is kind of, I don't know, not pleasing. Something in the high end, something in the low end, something is not letting it breeze through. The wind is not coming. You know what I mean? The breath, you know what I mean? If they feel uncomfortable with that mic and they're very experienced, they might say, let's try a different mic. And then you'll put the other mic and it'll be like, oh my God, this is amazing. And I know a lot of stories of that. I have friends who recorded some of the best vocalists ever in the world, and they'll be like, man, we tried one mic. And apparently it's the same company, the same model, but that specific mic just sounded different. And then they had to trace that mic each time they recorded.

(00:55:34):

And I know a lot of stories like that, and they're true stories because not only I heard them from the engineer that recorded them, I even heard it from the rental company that rented it, that they knew exactly which one it was. And of course I heard it from artists too, but yeah, but that's where, that's the stage where you're in the top. That's that stage where you can hear those little small increments that make the difference for you, and they do affect the final result, but you have to get to that stage to be there to decide that that's what makes it.

Speaker 1 (00:56:13):

I went on the internet right now and I typed converters don't matter. I'm sure I would find a lot of people, and I've seen people argue this passionately. I don't have converters like you, but I've had a lot of boxes in here that as we've talked over the years, and I've probably auditioned like 15 converters. I mean, I'll give you an example. Recently, a buddy of mine sent me a Lavry gold and I was like, oh, I can't wait to try the Lavry. It's going to be awesome. You're like, yeah, you're not going to like that converter. It's not going to fit your sound. And I'm like, don't tell me how to mix. Let me mix my own stuff and make my own decisions. And you're like, nah, it's not a fit for your style. Trust me, I know. And you're like, nah. And I'm like, nah, nah, nah.

(00:56:49):

I'm being stubborn about it. I wanted to hear it with my own ears. I got it in here. I listened to it. I look at my assistant, he's like, eh. We're like, nah, it's not us. It doesn't fit my style. So it's funny to me the different levels of this stuff, because again, if I go on the internet, I will see people that are argue till they're blue in the face that you cannot hear the difference of converters. It's placebo and I'm sitting here, if you put a mo two next to an RME, next to an audience, next to an apogee, next to a BL, a, moderate apogee next to a lavry gold next to a burl. I'm telling you every single one of those sound different. Is it night and day? No, but there is a difference. And that difference will accumulate over many different things that you're recording.

(00:57:32):

For example, if you're an engineer and you track 200 tracks and a song through a converter, it's going to leave a definite sonic signature or taking your mix and printing it through capturing your mix bus or something like that. So it's always fun when I see people that are like, they can't hear the difference in this stuff, and they argue so passionately and vehemently that the rest of us are wrong and we're making shit up. And I kind of sit back and I think to myself, I feel sorry for that person. They haven't reached the level yet where they know what they're listening for or they're monitoring is like we were talking about earlier, they're just not there yet and they're sitting there on their pulpit bullying everybody else into that. They're wrong, and it's just unbelievable when I see these arguments made because it's like often you find people with the strongest opinions and that type of stuff have the least amount of experience with it. Whereas if you get in the room with somebody who really knows their stuff and has a vast amount of knowledge on gear, for example, like you or Rick Carson, you're going to hear totally different take on it than what you might find just rolling and trolling around the internet. So it's always fun seeing that stuff.

Speaker 2 (00:58:43):

I'll tell you my approach to it. You can get results with anything you work with. Let's start with that. Okay, let's not bullshit anybody. You can get amazing results in the box. Out of the box with shitty converters. You can get results. Let's start with that. The question is how much work you have to put into it. If you use bad converters and now you got to fix bad recordings due to that, then now you're entering the world of forensic audio and now you got to fix stuff or whatever. Now every converter sounds different because everything makes a difference. Does that difference quantifying big amounts or not? Yes and no. Depending on the source material, depending on the application and how you use it, the reason I told you, you're not going to like that converter because it's not going to fit your work, it's because I've mastered so many songs that you worked on and different transitional times of your work when you were still summing or did some half in the box, which you did or you were working with, the old console you had and the new console you had in all the transit.

(00:59:56):

I mean, in the past two and a half, close to three years, we've done so much work together. I basically know mostly what I get from you and what you like. And that's why I can sometimes suggest things and say, you're going to like this piece, or this piece fits your work style because I know what you do. And we've done anything from singles, eps, albums, even demo stuff that whatever it was, that converter is great. Hands down, would it fit everyone? No. Would it fit top range or low range? It doesn't matter. It will fit whoever it fits. Okay? The other converters that you work with, they fit what you work with.

(01:00:39):

If someone doesn't hear a difference, it doesn't mean they're deaf. It doesn't mean they are not professional, it doesn't mean anything. It just means they don't hear. And it could be monitoring either speakers or room. It could be program material they put in. It could be focal point if they're listening to it. Some people say, look, I hear a difference, but it's not enough for me to justify that expense. There's a psychological factor. If a converter costs eight grand, the first thing you want to say to yourself is, I don't want to buy it. I don't want to buy it. I'm not going to hear a difference. That's another thing.

(01:01:19):

If it costs 200 bucks, you'd be like, Hey, you know what? I can hear a difference and I'm happy with it. That's good. There's so many factors. Placebo, there's so many factors. Sticker shock, you can put a lot on the plate. I got a bunch of converters and I found the ones that I like more and less, and there's converters I don't use anymore that I think that are great, but they don't work for what I want to do. But they are great. So I can vouch for them being a really good converter. And I've had a bunch, but sometimes I would say I outgrew them, not because I outgrew them on a professional level, but I found that they're not useful for what I'm doing and I need a different sound. And there's things that I still have just in case I'll get to a sound that I need them to.

(01:02:02):

But I pick and choose the converters based on the sonics that I like hearing and the application of how I feel it works with my chains. And most of my chain is custom anyway, so it's natural that I'll pick what works with what I work with. And I have really different converter types and I like that. And you know what? If someone brings in on a converter and I feel like this is really good for me, I'll shell out the money for it because I'll see the usage for it in my application, in my workflow was I like that all the years. No, like I said, it's growth in time. I discovered that converter fit me okay times. I bought a different one and I used it a bit and I felt like it's less good for what I'm doing or it's too much for what I'm doing.

(01:02:59):

So I had those pieces, I had that natural growth and I've had a lot of gear throughout the years. And you know what? I'm happy that I did that because one, I learned a lot. Two, I've gained experience through that process. Three, I love what I'm doing. So for me it's like a playground. It's like today I did this, yesterday, I did that. It's fun. I'm very passionate about what I do and I connect very naturally and organically with people who are doing the same and we can talk about it and they can say, oh, I don't like that thing. Okay, I do. Or I can say I don't like that. And I like it. Everybody has their own thing and there's no yes or no. That applies to everything. It's all specific subjective, it's preferences. And if you see people saying everything is the same, well they're measuring the same.

(01:04:03):

That's the thing they're doing. And if you have low quality converters that have the same chip and all that, then yeah, it's going to sound similar, but there's going to be a point where you're going to compare higher range ones and they'll be very different. And then it's just a choice. And if you decide to work in the box because you don't like conversion, that's okay too. There's a lot of people who would prefer no conversion and it'd be like, I like the plugins. And guess what? Plugins today sound really good. 10, 15 years ago, plugins didn't sound close to what they sound today. So everybody can choose a workflow that works for them and for their clientele, and that's legit. And I don't downplay people who say they work in the box or I don't downplay. If someone has a converter to cost two grand compared to a converter to cost eight grand, if what you do sounds really good and works good, great. Don't pick something. Just because it has a high sticker price, it means it's going to be working good for you. And at the same time, don't go for the cheapest thing around or the intermediate if it doesn't get you the results you want. Invest in your craft, which means gear, practice perspective. What can I do to become better? And I didn't mind shelling out, these converters are not cheap. Just a pair here is more than 16 grand. Little. I have others here that cost even more.

Speaker 1 (01:05:42):

Yeah, I mean the thing is though is it's like at a certain point, going back to that 1%, it matters if you've got clientele. I always look at it this way, if I'm getting better because people are hearing that work and they're calling me and they're saying, Hey, I heard this that you did, it sounds great. Can you work with us? And I noticed I've invested more of the profit my studio makes back into itself and invested in gear because I've gone through multiple phases here. I mixed half of my life totally in a computer and then half of my life totally hybrid. Now I'm on a console and I didn't arrive at that decision lightly. I mean, you've known me what, over a decade now and five years ago you would've called me and be like, I don't need any of that shit, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

(01:06:26):

I'm doing fine in the computer now. I'm like, eh, I was wrong. So it's natural to go through stages and want to try stuff. But more importantly, I think what drives me is always trying to get that extra little percent every day, trying to get a little bit better every week, every month, trying to get better, more progress and stuff. Because as the work has gotten better, I've attracted the types of clients and the names and the charting positions and stuff that I've gone after. And it's brought in bigger budgets and better clients, which has allowed me to do better mixes. I think better clients are important for better mixes. You could be a very good mixer, but if you're mixing crap all day and none of the musicians can play anything and none of the producers are good enough to clean it and the editor didn't do a good job, it doesn't matter how the songs are crap.

(01:07:14):

It's just like as a mixer, you're stuck in a corner and you're going to perform suboptimally. Whereas if you have an amazing producer with incredible musicians with an incredible song and everything compounds and then a great mixer, it's like now you're putting out something that really drops jaws on the floor and people want to chase and go, what is that? How do they do that? How do they get those sounds? So I kind of feel like what I do like about gear is that every piece has a sound and it's unique. And sometimes you get things in and you'll be like, this isn't the right fit for the rig. It's not that it's not a great compressor, it doesn't compress well or the EQ curve isn't great, it's just not the right aesthetic. Finding things that just fit together synergistically in a way that create a sound that you hear it and you go, wow, that sounds great to me and that inspires you.

(01:08:05):

And it's really just that pursuit of that excellence and just trying to get better and better and striving to be great at it. So I think that's important. And sometimes I think people, they get comfortable. I did five years ago where you're just like, ah, I'm as busy as I want to be and no one seems to care. My clients are stuck at a certain level and they have their bar and it's like no matter how hard I push, it doesn't raise that bar for me. It's not what they want. Where now is I have a different type of clients and clients that want me to push the bar and they want to do more original things and they want to sound unique and they value that type of aesthetic and that workflow and they don't want to sound like everybody else. So there's a place in time for everything and it's a journey, and that's what makes this stuff fun. And I think it's why we love doing audio. It's a challenge every day. It really is. So I want to ask you, wait, I have a quick

Speaker 2 (01:09:05):

Anecdote on this. So I have a friend, we're friends more than 20 something years, so that's a long way. And I do mastering for him for a lot of years. And for a long time he was working in the box and I would tell him, Hey man, if you had some piece of analog, maybe you can get this or that, because at the end of the day, he gave me good stuff to work with. Sometimes we made some tweaks, but overall good stuff and I will master it and get good results. And the clients were happy. And I told him, if you ever open your mind to something like this, you should try to explore maybe adding some stuff out of the box. And then one day he calls me, he says, Hey, I had a birthday and my brother told me, you should invest in yourself. His brother's a drummer and he has tons of symbols and drums, and he's like, you should invest in yourself.

(01:10:11):

And he did that. He was like, okay, maybe I should. So he called me again, we talked about it and I said, how about you fly? He lived in a different state. I said, how about you fly in for a week here at my place? I'll show you how analog sounds. You'll see me working, you'll hear stuff, you'll get the vibe. And he came here and then we went to different shops to see some gear and to see a console and all that. And he started to connect the dots with like, oh, okay, maybe if I have a console, I'll enjoy it more. I'll enjoy the tactile field, the process.

(01:10:56):

And then I helped him, kind of consulted him what gear to buy. And he bought a console, same console as you. And he bought some gear, some really cool gear, some of it's really amazing stuff. And you know what I asked him months later down the line, what do you feel? How do you feel about it? He says, it's like you have the blue pill and the red pill. And now that I took the blue pill, now I can't go back to, I can technically go back to the red pill, but I enjoy the blue pill more. So he enjoys the process more. He gets way better results already because he feels what he's doing. The clients are loving it because they feel like they're going in a studio, the one that what they see in the pictures back in the day, and it's not about the profit.

(01:11:56):

I mean, technically, yeah, he's making more money now, getting more work in, but of course he invested in gear, which takes the money out, but it's not about the profit because if you look at profit, yeah, I mean sell all your gear and just use the cheapest DAW in the world and the stocks plug in and now you haven't put any investment barely, and you'll make the most money, but you might not enjoy it and you might not get the best results you want it to. But here he enjoys it more. He's still paying for the console, still paying for the gear, just like most people will be. But he enjoys it more. He gets amazing results. The clients are happy. Sometimes you don't need to look at the profit. Sometimes you need to look at as long as I'm paying my bills and I can do it and I enjoy it more and it's fun and the results bring more clients in too, then yeah, that's fine. And you're upping your game.

Speaker 1 (01:12:54):

Yeah, that's a really important point. I kind of feel the same. I definitely felt like three years ago just capped out. I kind hit a two year plateau where I'm just, no matter what I do, I can't take this anymore in the direction of the sounds in my head. I would sit there with Joe, my assistant for months. We had time back then and I wasn't mixing, so I had time to screw around during the day. We could sit and dedicate a couple hours a day to just experimentation. And we tried so many things and I just could not get certain sounds. And then one day I was like, oh, maybe I'll try a so mixer. I used to gear and I got it in and I got in my car and I hit play. And the first transient, I was like, ah, that's the sound I miss.

(01:13:38):

And then I went back and I sat down for another days and days and days and tried to replicate that in the computer. I'm like, okay, I just have to admit that these are different. It doesn't mean it's good, doesn't mean it's bad. One doesn't invalidate the other. They sound different. And then I'm like, okay, well that took me just down the rabbit hole and I got certain pieces of gear and I'm having more fun mixing now than ever before. Whereas before I felt like I felt confident and strong in the work I was doing and for where I was charging and the types of clients I was working with and stuff. And they were happy. We got the results they wanted to, but now I feel more like an artist, if that makes sense, where it's kind of just like I feel like I can, you've just taken the lid off.

(01:14:24):

I'm trying to think of an analogy. The ceiling has been broken and you just jump through it and you're like, I can do anything. You know what I mean? It's like when I mix, I sit down and I just feel totally freed in terms of sonics and Oh, I want to make something sound like this and I can achieve that sound very quickly. Or I want to mix this song and kind of make it sound like this. And I feel like an artist now instead of somebody who sits down and just kind is like, I'm really good at mixing this kind of music and here's my template and here's exactly how I achieve this sound all the time, which is great. If you're doing factory work now I feel more like, Hey, everything I mix is different. I mean, heck, I'm going to send you a record next week and you're going to hear it be like, this doesn't sound like anything you've ever mixed before.

(01:15:06):

It's just totally off base for you. But I'm happy with the results and the band is, and I think we came up with something that's just totally different. Somebody would listen to my catalog and discography and they would listen to that record and be like, I can't believe that's you. That's just a very different, it's just totally different person, a different set of ears maybe, but it's me. So that's one thing that Gear has really helped me is I've had more fun mixing and it's allowed me to express myself more creatively, get results faster. I use so much less EQ now. I don't need to. It's the board bends. I mean, the only way I can explain it is you raise the fader in the box and I'm immediately like, oh, I need to eq, get this residence out. And I just go nuts. And all of a sudden I'm like 12 bands of EQ and I'm like, okay, now this sound sounds good.

(01:15:51):

Then I raise the next fader and I'm like, crap, there's conflicts. And then I pull out the EQ and now I'm going to town and it's drawing in all these crazy EQ curves and now they lock and it sounds good on the board. I raise the fader. I'm like, yeah, that sounds great. Maybe a little tone shaping. I raise the next fader. I'm like, wow, that sounds great. Things just lock together and maybe a little tone shaping, I need a little more rightness or this or that, but I'm just, I'm there so much faster. And when you're doing that, it allows you to stay more creative. But again, everybody's workflow is totally different and there are people that hate mixing on gear because it just slows them down and they feel like they just don't have time. And we all have different constraints and different parts in our career and there's different things, but at least in my world, I've had a lot of fun switching and incorporating, I mean, I still obviously do a lot of stuff in the box.

(01:16:40):

It doesn't matter how much work I do on the board, it's only 32 channels and I'm mixing 200 track songs. So it's like there's a lot of subm mixing and a lot of plugins that you need to do. And there's certain sounds you can only get with a plugin, right? Period. There's certain things that are so much easier to do on a plugin where it's like you could eat four channels of real estate and it's easier to just here's your stem and now throw it in the console. So anyways, yeah, that's a lot of gear. Maybe one last thing here, because we're a little bit longer than we normally are on these, but whatever, I don't care. And I have literally sat down from 7:00 PM to four in the morning and just nerded for hours and hours and then kept going and it's like we're at an event and people are there and then they come, they go and they come back to, you guys are still chatting.

(01:17:26):

We're just like, yeah, yeah, we're just so focused and in it, so it's always fun. Let's talk about, this is something you and I talk about a lot that I think is interesting and we're going to shift gears. I know we've talked about gear, we've talked about the art of listening, we've talked about working as a team and things like that. What about pricing policies? Let's shift hard business. This is something I feel like you're very, very strict about, and sometimes you and I have different opinions on this and different approaches. I mean, we're in agreement on a lot of things, but what do you think? Lay it out. Lay out your case. For some of these people watching, I think they're going to find your approach to this interesting and how it prevents certain issues. And as we grow from experience doing these things in this industry, you get screwed and things go bad and things go wrong, and you're always trying to set up policies and approaches that minimize the risk of that happening.

Speaker 2 (01:18:19):

Well, let's start with this. You're never foolproof, okay? There's always risks, okay? You never know how crazy a client could be, and there are crazy people out there, I'm telling,

Speaker 1 (01:18:30):

Yeah, there are,

Speaker 2 (01:18:31):

Okay, and this happened since the dawn of commercial music, whatever you, I mean, right? No, but the first thing you need to think of is what's your situation? For example, if you're a single, you don't have expenses. You can have more flexibility if you're married or divorced with kids, now you have responsibilities that you have to take into consideration in everything you do. Okay? Another thing is for example, is how your lifestyle is regardless of just your responsibilities. If you're a person that likes to, I dunno, hang out at clubs, go to movies, go to shows, you have a entertainment life. You like eating in the most fancy restaurants, your cost of living is higher, but not because you have to, because you choose to. Okay? Right? So you have to figure out is it you have a high cost living because you choose to or you have a high cost of living because you have kids and mortgage and all that stuff, or both. Those things are very important in your decision making of how you want to get paid, right? For example, to me, I have kids which cost money, right? Oh my

Speaker 1 (01:20:07):

God,

Speaker 2 (01:20:08):

The older they are, they cost more. If you think babies are expensive, wait until they get to their teenage hood, right? So that's costs that you got to put in consideration if you have mortgage, okay? Also, where do you live if you live in a place that's not expensive, okay? Then you can have lower pricing. If you live in a state and city, that's expensive. You got to start higher, right? I mean your overhead already is higher. I live in California, it's expensive state. I live in the LA county, very expensive. I got kids. So you put your rates based on what you have to make to make a living, and then payment policy. That's also dependent on how quick you need the money. Some people can wait three months, four months, whatever. Some people have to have it now because they got up every month. Shell out all that money for the overhead, especially if it's high.

(01:21:18):

Now, this is a subject that a lot of people would be very, I would say not like to hear this, but it's reality. The higher you go in terms of major label, the payment terms are different because you might get more money, but you might not get it as quick. Okay? Some producers who do big stuff might have to wait a year until they get paid or half a year, whatever. I don't know. I mean there's different payment terms. Now, if some can get it immediately, it's their own negotiations that they do. When you work indie, you have more flexibility because you can say, this is what I want and I want it. Now, some bands will say, no problem, we just want it now. But when you work with labels, they have their policies and they might say, well, we pay once a month or twice or once every two months or three months.

(01:22:25):

They might have their own policies. And the reason I'm saying this is because you've got to understand when it's a private client, you have way more flexibility When it's label oriented or has managements and all that, then you're playing a different game and that's someone else that's dictating what's happening. Now, in some cases, those indie artists are actually indie under a label that's indie or management, but they still call the shots like a major label. If it's an indie label that's bought by a major label, then you might assume, okay, well it's a major label owning it so I can get more money. No, you get the same money as it was an indie label, but now your payment terms is on the major label, which can take even longer. Okay? You got to be aware of those things. It doesn't mean that if a major pot, the indie, you're getting more money, you're probably getting the same money as before, but now the payment terms are different.

Speaker 1 (01:23:27):

It's amazing how people can demand something be turned in so quickly but takes so long to pay for it after it's turned in.

Speaker 2 (01:23:36):

Yes. And you have to be aware of those things. You basically make the decision who are your clients because you can accept it or not. I've had times where I would just say, no, I don't want to do it because I don't want to wait three months for a hundred bucks. You know what I'm saying? It's absurd sometimes that the payment terms are so slow that you're like, nah, I don't want that headache. And in other cases you'd be like, you know what? Anyway, I got pending here. A bunch of bills that need to just come up and they'll come in. But be aware that every situation you walk into, it's either the negotiations is in your favor or in their favor, and it's a give and take. If you want to do something big, sometimes you're going to be bending down, you bending backwards, right? It's like, oh, I want to be involved with that. But the payment terms, if it's four months, you'd be like, really? I'm going to make the money then Well, yeah, maybe that's it, but it's you making that decision. They don't make that decision for you. They'll put the terms and you'll make that decision, okay? It's always in your hands to make the decision if you want it or not.

(01:24:54):

And of course you can lose from it too, right? So it's a decision you make. Now, I personally have a high overhead because I live in a state that's expensive in a county that's expensive and I got kids and all that. So when I do my dealings, I'm quite strict about what I want and when. And if they can do that, great. If they can't, then I make the decision if I'm playing their game or not. And in some cases I might say, Hey, you know what? I don't care. Let's do it. In other cases I'll say no, if they can't deliver the money now or whatever the payment terms are, I don't want to do it.

(01:25:41):

Some people will cave in because they're like, well, I want to get in with that label. And that's fine if it works. If you cave in and it brings you work and it keeps bringing you work, that's great, keep on. But if it's a onetime work and later on they don't, and it's not because you didn't do a good job, it's just because they have other people, they can low ball, then they won. And it's not supposed to be a fight at the end of the day, it has to be a win-win, but the win-win could be a compromise. So you could be like, Hey, you know what? I don't mind waiting two weeks for payment as long as we're in good terms and it works okay. In other cases you'd be like, no, I don't want a situation where I am not sure if they pay me or not. They can stiff you and they can do that. And even big labels can do that. And if them done that too, there's a lot of people who are owed a lot of money.

(01:26:47):

So I think you have to understand where you at with it, how long you can really wait for money, what's your overhead? How important is that relationship? And if you have an account with someone, when I say account means they deliver, you work all the time so you don't have a problem with money coming in later because at the end of the day, every month you're basically getting money from them from other months. That's fine too. And a lot of places work like that too. It's like ongoing reoccurring payments you can do that you could do half upfront, half later, you can do full upfront, you can do only later. It's all negotiable, but just remember negotiable doesn't mean they go with what you say. It means they put down the cards on the table how they want, but it's your decision if you want to go with it or not.

Speaker 1 (01:27:53):

So what are some good policies that you might recommend people do so they can be in a better position and avoid some of the BS that can happen in this business?

Speaker 2 (01:28:04):

Well, first of all, the best thing you can do is state upfront everything. Just be upfront with the band saying, look, this is how much costs to mix with me. This is how much it costs when we pass revision. Number three, if you put things on the table upfront, one, they will know how much it costs them and they will be very careful with revisions because they'll know that after number two or three, whatever number you decide, they're going to pay more out of pocket and that could be running out of the budget. So stating it upfront is a great tool for great communications and expectations, and I do that every time somebody calls me, this is how much it costs. You want this, it's going to cost this. Then they can work their budget.

Speaker 1 (01:29:08):

Something we teach in speed mixing, by the way, is setting revision maximums and strict rules for operation always upfront so that way you're not burden by the massive time socket takes to correct problems that could have been avoided ahead of time.

Speaker 2 (01:29:24):

Yeah, also set communications expectations. For me example, I get a mix with a problem I call the mixer. Even if I started working on it and spend time, I'll call the mixer and say, Hey, I have a problem with this and this, can you fix it? If he fixes it and gets me the new one, I don't charge him for the time I spent, but now at least I can work better with it because I'm not fighting it and I get a better mix, which means I can yield a better result and better master. So I'll tell them that upfront that if I hear a problem, I'll tell them. And if they say that's fine, we can do it. Great. If they say No, we can't fix it is what it is, then they know that there's limitations to what I can do and I'll do what I can with it.

(01:30:13):

And if they want fixes later on, it's something we discuss. Either I'll do it as part of the revision process where they don't get charged to a certain amount or we say, look, we are limited to what we can do with this, so I'll give you one revision, but after that there's a limitation to what I can do and you can't just give me 20 other revisions because that limiting factor in the mix is creating problems for me. And now we're going in minuscule increments trying to nail it and I'm going like master revision 24. Okay. So those are important things that we use. Set communication expectations and understanding and like I said, payment terms. I understand that a lot of clients wouldn't be happy to work with someone that just starting out to give him upfront in full or even half, but that's something you can communicate.

(01:31:16):

You can maybe say, give me 10% upfront. There's a leeway to work. You just need to make it work. And the best way to make it work is put your intentions upfront. A lot of times I'll do a phone call. I find that phone calls work way better than emails, even though people will say emails are better. Yes, emails are better when you just want to get the point through, but a lot of times we're dealing with a discussion, the dynamics of the discussion is important because the best results usually are when both sides understand each other.

Speaker 1 (01:31:52):

I want to just jump in and just say that's actually won you quite a few mastering projects at least on my end, where when I'm sitting there and they're like, we want to go to this guy, I'm like, no, we got to go to this one. This is part of my sound. You hired me. This is the way I achieve my results. And one point that has always stuck really well is I've worked with that guy and this guy and they're obviously great at what they do. I don't think they're the best fit for my work, but more importantly, I can't get that person on the phone. I can get their secretary if we have a problem and they can say they'll handle it in two weeks from now. Do you want to be in that situation given your deadline where if we go with the person that I recommend, I'm telling you right now, if there's a problem, I can be on the phone with that person in 20 seconds and we can be fixing it.

(01:32:36):

And especially if we're in a pinch, it's good to know that you have that in your back pocket and I feel like most people hear that. They're like, oh, wow, we can actually talk to the mastering engineer. Yeah, it's actually encouraged just like you can talk to me as a mixer, so I'm a hundred percent with you. I always call the people that I'm mixing for and the producers and I just want to get inside their head and have a conversation and understand what it is we're doing before we do it because it allows us to be more successful. And a little bit of time spent upfront saves a lot more time and problems later.

Speaker 2 (01:33:08):

It's like,

Speaker 1 (01:33:09):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (01:33:10):

Okay, if you get it mostly where you want to go with it, it doesn't have to be a hundred percent, but if you got the big picture done in the pre-production, then during the production and recording, you're quite there and you still have room for experimentation. When I take a project, if they decide they only want to work with email, okay, they'll work with email and I get it. And some stuff works like that good because sometimes there's no need for too much dynamics in terms of the discussion. But if I work with someone on a close level that we have discussions, of course it's always good to have the possibility to make a phone call and say, Hey, I think in that song can we do something like that? I can say, oh yeah, I noticed that as well. I think we can do that, but maybe not that. And then you can always follow up with an email saying, oh, as our discussion, can you fix this and this and this? And can that point of the song, can you create a fade or I want a fade to start from here to there. Communications is key, and I think people forget that as much as we have all the tools in the world to communicate now, we're actually communicating less

Speaker 1 (01:34:21):

And way worse at it, which is kind of crazy. I mean, here's an example to prove your case. Recently you and I did a record for a really fantastic producer and you called and said, Hey, I think we need to switch this song into this because as I'm sitting here and mastering and I know that the track list is this, this album makes much more sense if we do this. And you called the artist and you called the producer and you explained it to them and they were open to hearing it, and then they heard it and they agreed and it produced a better result. And they're like, wow, Mauer is really on it. This guy really cares. And it made the record better. It was like you didn't have to do that, but you did. And they appreciated it because it's like they hadn't thought of that and they hadn't realized it and they're not having your ears and perspective sitting there listening to it. And that one little move made a big difference in terms of the way that that art is presented. And like I said, everybody on the whole team is happy now because you took the time to do that

Speaker 2 (01:35:15):

In that case, I know which record you're talking about. They were two songs and basically I didn't impose my opinion. I was saying, look, I hear these two songs that need a placement change. I think this should go there and this may be moving to a different place. There was one song they liked to be specifically in a certain place because there was a concept there. So I said, okay, if there's a concept there, you want to keep it great. And then the other song, they were very open to moving it and it also worked well on the vinyl option too. It was changing aside anyway, so it was a good turning point for the record anyway. And so I wasn't imposing you got to do that and it's like it can't be differently. I was giving those options and I let them make the decision as well based on what they heard and the second song they agreed that it should be moving to where it should be now, and it did good.

(01:36:17):

Now, again, I suggested the two songs because I also felt the other one, but if they have a strong feeling about something and it's their record, again, it's not going to make the record bad if it's there, it might be better if it's somewhere else, but it didn't ruin the record. But moving the other song to the placement that we changed actually made it feel better because it was kind of in the middle where was creating that passage and it really elevated how the record flew, not flew, I say like a plane, but flew like that. So yeah, it's important to be involved. There are records that I basically sequenced. The artist had a sequence that didn't work good and he tried different things and then I suggested, why don't we move this to there? And we sequenced the record new in a new way and it worked amazing. And sometimes it was just moving a song or two. In other cases they wanted the record as is and it's just like, okay, but maybe just move the ending one or beginning or keep it as is. And sometimes you have to just flow with it, but it's not bad having a conversation about things. And you never should be hurt by somebody giving you an opinion because it's only an opinion.

(01:37:47):

If they think differently, it's fine. You can always say, I understand, but I want it to be this way. And no one should ever be hurt by someone giving them an opinion because it just means the other side cares or thinks differently. If someone gives me feedback and says, Hey, I think if you do this and this, it can improve things. I see it somebody caring and they're telling me that, does it mean I'll do it or not? We don't know. It might fit my agenda, it might not. But the fact that he did say that to me, okay, something to think about. And it's not bad. People get sometimes too precious about not hearing what they want to hear, the whole cancel culture.

(01:38:43):

You don't really want yes man around you all the time because positivity is great, but it doesn't always elevate you. Having opinions that are against what you're saying or negative opinions doesn't mean it's going to drive you to a negative place. It means you have a different perspective and you can take it to where you want to take it. And if you're too sensitive and you can't handle it, okay, that's something else. That's your own thing. But negative feedback is not a bad thing if you know how to take it and if you understand where it can take you to the next place and learn from it. And I try to do that anytime I can. And if one, one tells me, Hey, maybe the way you verb it said it to the person, maybe it didn't catch it right, it was verbalized wrong or whatever you want to call it or stated in a way that can be translated in a different way or in the wrong way. Okay, that's good that you tell me. I'll think about how to do it next time. So don't be too precious about things in terms of they give you feedback, try to get something from that feedback. It's not a bad thing. Nothing is really that bad if it comes as an opinion.

Speaker 1 (01:40:16):

Yeah, I mean you need it for growth. I mean, I'll give you an example. A few weeks ago I got a tool in my studio and I threw it on my console and I was trying something and I'm like, yeah, what did you think? How'd you think this turned out on? You're like, yeah, it's a little too grainy. I don't like how it hit the saturation and this and that. I feel like you would've better got results. And I was like, okay, well I didn't think about it that way, so I took some time and I thought about it and you know what I mean? You make adjustments. So it's useful feedback. You need that type of feedback and you're working relationships and that's why it's good to take the time to develop relationships professionally and work collaboratively as a team. Because if you don't have that feedback, how are you supposed to get better? You're sitting there by yourself in a bubble, reading a bunch of random stuff from random people you don't know that you don't know who they are, how good they are or whatever, giving you feedback. It's much better to know and build relationships with people who are great at what they do and can give you feedback and take that and grow. So Mower, I am out of time here today, but I want to thank you so much for coming on. Always interesting and fun talking with you, and we'll have to do it again sometime.

Speaker 2 (01:41:18):

Thank you very much for having me and I want to wish everybody who watches this, all the luck, all the best. Keep rocking, keep making music, keep working, do what you love. It's the only thing we can do, right? Really just put in the effort and enjoy it and good luck with everything, okay? Make yourself happy with what you're doing. Thank you.