Kyle Black: What Makes a Great Intern, Tracking Massive Guitars, and Why He Avoids Reamping

Speaker 1 (00:00:01):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast, brought to you by Focal Audio, the world's reference speaker. For over 30 years, focal has been designing and manufacturing loudspeakers For the home speaker, drivers for cars, studio monitors, for recording studios and premium quality headphones, visit focal.com for more information. And now your hosts, Joey Sturgis, Joel Wanasek, and Eyal Levi.

Speaker 2 (00:00:29):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast. I am Eyal Levi. With me is Mr. Joel Wanasek. Joey Sturges. Hey. Hey. Yeah, Joe Sturgis is traveling again. He's on a plane somewhere. And with us is our wonderful guest. Mr. Kyle Black.

Speaker 3 (00:00:46):

Hello.

Speaker 2 (00:00:47):

Yeah, hello. Welcome.

Speaker 3 (00:00:49):

Thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 2 (00:00:50):

Yeah, it's a pleasure. We're excited to have you. Those of you who don't know who he is, you should know who he is. Worked with all kinds of awesome bands like Five Seconds of Summer, hit the Lights, newfound Glory Comeback, kid All Time Low. Set your goals, stick to your Guns. State champs, on and on and on and on and on. Yes,

Speaker 3 (00:01:12):

Sir.

Speaker 2 (00:01:12):

And I have a question.

Speaker 3 (00:01:14):

Yeah, go for it.

Speaker 2 (00:01:15):

You live in West Hollywood right now, right?

Speaker 3 (00:01:17):

North Hollywood. I'm not that cool.

Speaker 2 (00:01:20):

How do you get anything done living in la?

Speaker 3 (00:01:24):

It's tough. There's definitely a lot of distractions, but you just got to stay in your cave and keep rocking.

Speaker 2 (00:01:30):

Everyone I know from there who's in the music industry pretty much except for, I guess, except for some producers are out and about every single night. Every night.

Speaker 4 (00:01:41):

That's crazy.

Speaker 3 (00:01:41):

Yeah, going to shows is certainly a big part of living out here and definitely one of the benefits and certainly helps finds the acts I want to work with and all that stuff. So I go to a show at least on average once a week.

Speaker 2 (00:01:57):

Interesting. So are you from California?

Speaker 3 (00:01:59):

Yeah, I was born in Chicago, but then grew up a little bit in San Diego and then pretty much been growing up here in LA since I was six years old.

Speaker 4 (00:02:10):

I was just say, you're from by me. I'm from Milwaukee, so

Speaker 3 (00:02:13):

Oh, nice. Yeah, my whole extended family lives out there.

Speaker 4 (00:02:16):

I'm sorry. No, I'm kidding. Milwaukee's. All right, I like it.

Speaker 3 (00:02:20):

No,

Speaker 2 (00:02:20):

It's great. Yeah, I don't know, Joel. Less when I was just there and I was in downtown Milwaukee. It was kind of rough, but I don't know. Anyways. What part

Speaker 3 (00:02:31):

Of Milwaukee are you from?

Speaker 4 (00:02:33):

Well, I grew up in a suburb called New Berlin, and now I live in a city called Menominee Falls, which essentially just like North Milwaukee suburbs.

Speaker 3 (00:02:40):

Cool. Right on. And Isle. You're in Orlando, right? I

Speaker 2 (00:02:43):

Have a studio in Orlando, but I live in Atlanta.

Speaker 3 (00:02:47):

Right on.

Speaker 2 (00:02:47):

Cool. It's kind of a lot of travel. I have a hatred for Florida, and I was involved with a studio called Audio Hammer out there for many years, did lots of metal records, and when I decided to do this stuff full time was no longer with Audio. Hammer was like, well, you know what? I hate Florida. I am not going to live here anymore,

Speaker 3 (00:03:09):

Really?

Speaker 2 (00:03:10):

But then Andrew Wade offered me a room at his new studio and I couldn't say no because Cool. I couldn't, and the place is gorgeous. So

Speaker 4 (00:03:19):

He doesn't really hate Florida?

Speaker 2 (00:03:21):

No, no, I do, but it happens to be in the one neighborhood in Orlando that I think is really cool. It's in Winter Park, which is just as cool as any other cool area in a city. It's kind of like an oasis. Nice. Yeah, it's not as horrible as the rest of Florida. Got it.

Speaker 3 (00:03:42):

Was it though the weather or the music scene that kind of made you want to leave?

Speaker 2 (00:03:46):

It's the weather. A lot of the people are just insane.

Speaker 3 (00:03:51):

The

Speaker 2 (00:03:51):

Wildlife, there's You mean that alligators, bears and insects?

Speaker 4 (00:03:58):

Yeah, I don't get that. Okay. I think a bear is, I think forests and mountains and shit like that. When I was down there hanging out with Al, he was like, yeah, if you guys see a bear, don't freak out. That's common around here. There's a couple miles up the road, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, bears in Florida what? That exists? That's a thing.

Speaker 2 (00:04:16):

Oh yeah,

Speaker 4 (00:04:17):

Colorado. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:04:19):

In

Speaker 4 (00:04:19):

Wisconsin. Yeah, Russia. Yeah, Florida. What the fuck?

Speaker 2 (00:04:23):

No. And these bears are not afraid of people. Maybe last year, a lady maybe a mile away from my house got dragged out of her garage by a black bear. They let her go for some reason, but it's just the weather there is oppressive. Plus if you're recording for about six months out of the year, you have to unplug your rig because storm season happens and Orlando is the lightning capital of the us. And actually getting your building struck by lightning is not a weird thing. These things, it happens out there. So for about three hours a day, you just literally need to unplug everything

Speaker 3 (00:05:11):

That's crazy and sucks big time.

Speaker 2 (00:05:14):

The clients hate it.

Speaker 3 (00:05:16):

Does Wade have to do that in his studio as well currently?

Speaker 2 (00:05:20):

Well, I know that he, or well, his intern texted me once and was like, Hey, we've got to unplug everything. Can I unplug your computer? When I was in Atlanta? And I was like, yes, please. I'm not going to even argue with someone in Florida who says, we need to unplug your shit right now. Right.

Speaker 4 (00:05:39):

Please take it outside, hold it over your head, put a metal rod and attach it and just scream to the heavens. Dude.

Speaker 2 (00:05:47):

When you see maybe on your Facebook feed someone is sharing a video of the most insane lightning strikes ever or that kind of stuff, like weather channel shit, that is kind of how it gets quite often over there,

Speaker 3 (00:06:03):

Right?

Speaker 2 (00:06:05):

Yeah,

Speaker 3 (00:06:05):

Man. Yeah, I feel super lucky to live where I'm at. The weather out here is great most of the time.

Speaker 4 (00:06:11):

Don't you get earthquakes and shit like that out there? Dude,

Speaker 3 (00:06:13):

I can't wait. It's coming. The big one. It's been a long time.

Speaker 4 (00:06:17):

Hit your own

Speaker 3 (00:06:17):

Island.

Speaker 2 (00:06:19):

It goes surfing on California,

Speaker 3 (00:06:21):

Right? It's been about 10, 15 years since a serious earthquake hit, and on average they come about 10 years or something. So it's coming and I'm pretty stoked for it. I got my speakers all tied down and

Speaker 2 (00:06:35):

Oh, really?

Speaker 3 (00:06:36):

Oh, for sure. Yeah. I'm not really joking about this. No, I

Speaker 2 (00:06:40):

Believe it. Half of my family's from Mexico City and they got lots of earthquakes there, so I'm aware. I'm aware of it. So you actually have your speakers tied down.

Speaker 3 (00:06:52):

Oh, for sure. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:06:53):

That's smart.

Speaker 3 (00:06:53):

Only for that really, because it's going to happen. It will happen. So that is smart.

Speaker 4 (00:06:59):

Is there a special insurance binder for that?

Speaker 3 (00:07:02):

Yeah, yeah. I mean, in my current spot, I don't have insurance on this stuff, but at my new spot that I'm working on right now, I will have insurance and they do have a earthquake C clause kind of thing. That stuff gets covered if there's an earthquake for sure, because a serious problem,

Speaker 2 (00:07:19):

I mean, in Florida you have a hurricane C clause as well. Only an idiot will not get that taken care of, even though Florida hasn't been hit by a serious hurricane in a long ass time, everyone knows that it's going to happen.

Speaker 3 (00:07:35):

Sure.

Speaker 2 (00:07:36):

Same sort of thing,

Speaker 3 (00:07:37):

Just a matter of time. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:07:39):

So I have an LA question for you.

Speaker 3 (00:07:41):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:07:42):

Being that, I mean for all intents and purposes, you're a native and very well that LA is kind of the target city for a lot of people who want to make it in the industry,

Speaker 3 (00:07:52):

Especially

Speaker 2 (00:07:54):

Not just people from the US who migrate there, people from all over the world when they say they want to make it in music, whether it's production or a band or anything else, LA is la, Nashville, New York. Do you recommend that people move to LA to pursue a career?

Speaker 3 (00:08:12):

I think they should move out here if they're really ready to do it. 110%. I mean, the rent out here is insane. You really got to work your ass off to be able to make ends meet. And on top of it, there's the amount of other guys out here doing what I'm doing is kind of off the charts. There's tons of competition and you just got to be really killing it and kicking ass if you're willing to step over here into the jungle.

Speaker 2 (00:08:43):

How did you manage to differentiate yourself or how did you set yourself apart and get recognized amongst all that competition?

Speaker 3 (00:08:55):

Yeah, I think it's just determination. Just being passionate about what I'm trying to do and the kind of bands that I want to work with, I think was really important. I wasn't a band that helped me meet a lot of producers that I learned from and mentored from. So I would say that location had a part to do with it, and I had some good mentors along the way that I bugged constantly and tried to help 'em out as much as I could and would do anything for 'em. And those opened up a lot of doors for me. And a lot of the credits you see are products of just being around the right people at the right time, you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (00:09:42):

So those mentors, did they give you gigs or did you impress them and then you worked through them? Or did you work with bands under them?

Speaker 3 (00:09:53):

A lot of it was, Hey, let me help out on this record. Let me tune some vocals, let me edit some drums, let me edit some guitars, let me set up some microphones. A lot of it was just that, and then it would turn into mixed gigs maybe if I had the opportunity. For example, one of my main mentors was Mike Green, who were, my first job for him was tuning vocals on a set your goals record and then tuning vocals on this boys like girls live thing. So I loved the work that he was doing, so I pursued him as best I could without being annoying.

Speaker 2 (00:10:37):

How did you manage to pursue him without being annoying? How did you not punish him and just get him to ignore you?

Speaker 3 (00:10:44):

So it helped that I was in a band that worked with them.

Speaker 2 (00:10:47):

Okay.

Speaker 3 (00:10:48):

Yeah. So that was definitely a solid in. So we co-wrote some songs with him. My old band was called Neural, and then we co-wrote with a lot of guys on that particular record, but Mike Green was just the guy who got it the most. So anyways, we spent a lot of time with him, and then in that time I got to know him and I just told him like, yo, man, this is what I do. I had been recording and producing since I was a kid, recording my own band and stuff like that. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (00:11:19):

So what happened that he actually trusted you though enough to try it? Or did he just say, fuck

Speaker 3 (00:11:25):

It? No, that was it. It was just my kind of persistence on, Hey, let me help you out. I think I remember bugging him often, maybe once a month or something, until he actually had an opportunity for me to do some work for him.

Speaker 2 (00:11:46):

Let me stop you right there. You just said often and once a month at the same time. And the reason I want to say that is because I've been punished by people every week and it gets so annoying and

Speaker 4 (00:12:03):

Oh my God, hourly sometimes.

Speaker 2 (00:12:05):

Really

Speaker 4 (00:12:06):

Every day by the same guy.

Speaker 2 (00:12:07):

Yeah.

Speaker 4 (00:12:08):

Oh man. I mean, you try to be nice, but come on, I got to get work done too. Right,

Speaker 3 (00:12:15):

Right. Well, I don't know mean that is a lot once a week. I mean, at a certain point you can identify someone who's just kind of crazy, but then you can also, if you have an opportunity to meet up with someone for coffee or something and learn about what they're all about, then it might be worth saying hi to these guys and seeing what they could do for you. But hourly is a lot. I mean, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (00:12:41):

Yeah.

Speaker 3 (00:12:41):

Well,

Speaker 2 (00:12:42):

I have definitely made business partners and hired people only through the internet and through their persistence, but it's usually been once a month sort of thing where they're persistent in that they will hit me up. And if I say, I'm too busy right now, but I would like to talk to you, hit me in a few weeks or hit me after this project's over, they actually respect that. They realize

Speaker 3 (00:13:06):

I'm

Speaker 2 (00:13:06):

Not just some possession of theirs or some thing they're trying to acquire or some contact. I'm actually a human being who's got a life and a schedule and pressure

Speaker 4 (00:13:17):

Or near you.

Speaker 2 (00:13:17):

Yeah, crazy. And they respect that. And then they will hit me back weeks later or a month later. And I appreciate that. And usually you spend those guys who are persistent but respectful.

Speaker 3 (00:13:28):

Exactly. Who

Speaker 2 (00:13:30):

I end up giving them an opportunity.

Speaker 3 (00:13:31):

Yeah, for sure. Those are the guys. Definitely.

Speaker 4 (00:13:34):

Sometimes

Speaker 3 (00:13:34):

It takes six months too. The guys that end up working with me are in an intern type of scenario. Are those kind of guys where they're, like you said, just persistent enough to know that you can identify that they're serious, but just not kind of kooky, kind of kooky is a good way to put it.

Speaker 4 (00:13:58):

Yeah. Interns are an interesting topic. I mean, I did, well, I guess by the time people hear this, it'll be dated, but I did a Facebook Live last night for two hours and I went on a 30 minute rant about interns, and I've taken on a few and had a few come and go this

Speaker 2 (00:14:14):

Year. You just had one to quit.

Speaker 4 (00:14:15):

Yeah, I just did have one to quit. Correct. It wasn't for her. I guess I showed you the email actually. I mean, it's a tough business and sometimes people really don't understand that it's not about what you're particularly doing in the short term. It's about the bigger picture, the people that you're going to meet, the opportunities that are going to present themselves, and they don't really think about that. So it's okay. I mean, this isn't for everybody.

Speaker 2 (00:14:42):

Joel, if I was 22 and I wanted to be a producer or work in the industry and I was interning for you, I would give it three years of cleaning toilets before I was like, well, you know what?

Speaker 4 (00:14:58):

Well, I got an opening every Friday if you want,

Speaker 2 (00:15:02):

Fuck Wisconsin, bro. I'm not moving there. But I'm just saying that I would at that point in my life, if I had the ability to get into a situation that was as connected as you are and with people as awesome as, and just everything going on, I would've killed for that opportunity. So it just blows my mind. But hey, it's not for everyone. And it's good to realize that.

Speaker 3 (00:15:27):

To add to everything that you guys are saying, I think it's just important to know that if you're looking for an internship and trying to be a producer or trying to be a mixer, I think that you should know that you shouldn't be interning with someone. To the end all be all is not to get a paid job really. I think it's to help out and learn from the guys in exchange for your service doing whatever they need you to do. And then so I guess what I'm saying is on the side, you should always be pursuing your own career because in the end, no one really wants to be an assistant. They want to be their own known guy, right?

Speaker 4 (00:16:10):

Yeah. I mean most people, but the thing is, I let all my anger out last night towards the situation, so I'm really calm right now, which is actually kind of disturbing me because I was really on a tirade. What I wanted to talk about here about this, Kyle, is let's talk about the qualities of what makes somebody stand out As an intern, I feel like this is something we've talked about before, but it is so damn important. And no matter how many times I say it, it's never enough. And I'll tell you a little bit a story here as a precursor, I can't tell you how many people have come into my studio now. Now I'm going to get mad here. When people come into my studio and looked me in the eye and said, Joel, this is what I want to do. I'm passionate about this. I can be great at this. This is all I do. I'm going to quit my job. I'm going to blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, I don't give a shit. You come in here and you show me and you stick it out for a long time and at some point you'll have created enough value for me where I will go way out of my way to make sure that your life gets substantially easier.

Speaker 3 (00:17:08):

And

Speaker 4 (00:17:08):

They're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then they flake out and they just can't hang or can't handle it, and they don't show up or they don't come back after the first day. Or we like to rouse the feathers a little bit on the first day and just be really crazy and really extreme and just see how they handle a really ridiculous sense of humor or just anything we can throw at 'em absolutely absurd. And it just weeds 'em out real fast. And the people that do make it though they are a special breed, and those are the kind of people at least I want on my team and I want to be associated. And those are the kind of people we work with. And it's like you expect greatness.

Speaker 3 (00:17:44):

They're probably guys like you and me and Isle. And the fact that we are here talking to each other says that we all have the same passion and determination.

Speaker 4 (00:17:55):

Yeah, it's not an easy ride at all. You got to grind ass. So what

Speaker 3 (00:18:00):

Characteristics

Speaker 4 (00:18:01):

Kyle, have you seen what's made people stand out, think of the best interns you've ever had, and then think about the worst ones. What's the difference in your eyes? What's your take?

Speaker 3 (00:18:10):

The best ones are the ones willing to learn how you do things and not try and implement their own way of doing things like, Hey, I found an easier, quicker way to do it. To be an intern, you really got to learn the lay of the land when you're in a studio and just not cross lines.

Speaker 4 (00:18:29):

I've seen that go sour many times.

Speaker 2 (00:18:31):

Well, it's because you got to understand that if you're interning for somebody who is established and no matter what it is they ask for, there's a reason they're asking for it. And lots of guys who are established, they didn't get established by following all the rules. They got established generally because they do their own thing. I mean, they know how to record correctly of course, but they take their own way of doing things. He take Joey for an example, he's a non-traditional engineer.

Speaker 3 (00:19:01):

He

Speaker 2 (00:19:01):

Does things his own way. He kind of invented his own style. So if you're going to intern for someone like Joey, you're going to have to do things maybe a little differently than you learned in recording school, and that's okay or different or whoever. When I was working under Jason, there are things that I was asked to do that are different than what you'll hear online. And it wasn't my place to question that because there's a reason that these guys ask for it. And maybe if something isn't as efficient as some workflow tip that you learned in a course or something like that, doesn't fucking matter. Do what these guys are asking for and learn how they do things and make them happy. And if you have a better way of doing things, maybe once you've gained their trust, then suggest it. Absolutely. Yeah,

Speaker 4 (00:19:50):

I think that's such a critical point. I mean, I'll use a story recently across the hall. The other producer that works with me, he's had several interns and one in particular was always just mouthy because he actually listens to us and subscribes more to how we make records. And the guy across the hall, he's got his own way of doing it now in his own right, he makes a lot of money. He's extremely successful in his market and he does great. And yeah, are there efficient to see things and workflows and the way he tunes vocals or edits drums that don't make sense to guys like us and how we do 'em? Absolutely. But does it work for him? He's got a thing. So are you going to come in as an intern and argue? So there was a guy who always came in and they'd always get into it, and it was just kind of comical that Joe and I, Joe was my assistant, if you guys don't know, and also co-owns Drum Forge with me, Joey, Joe and I would always be laughing.

(00:20:45):

Joe was the most amazing intern I ever had, hence why he was a business partner now. And Joe one day was just reaming him out. He's like, dude, listen, you're not here to tell the dude across the hall what the fucking do. You're here to sit down, shut your mouth and do exactly what he says. Don't question it. Don't argue, don't get mad. Don't not show up. Don't screw him over and embarrass him in front of his clients. Come in and do your fucking job and shut your mouth and you might learn something. And man, I just want to say, I know he's going to listen to this podcast. There it is.

Speaker 2 (00:21:24):

And you know what, dude, I could just imagine Joe doing that too.

Speaker 4 (00:21:29):

It takes a lot to get Joe pissed off. I just want to put that out there. He's really passive aggressive and really laid back. But man, when Joe gets mad for real mad, he gets really pissed. And I like it because every time one of my interns, I don't even have to discipline them. There are new interns when they come in and they get out of line, he rips their fucking heads off. He's like, look it to me. Look where I got blah, blah, blah. He's like, I've grinding it out every day. You don't see me complaining because I've got to edit. It's 4,000 drum samples and the next two weeks or I've got to do this or do that. I got to work 17 hour days, not a single word comes out of my mouth. I sit here, I do my fucking job because I want to be great at this and this is what I love doing. And you're here to do the same thing. I don't want to hear you complain or get frustrated because you couldn't figure something out. Use your mouth, ask questions, and that's how you'd be great at this.

(00:22:21):

That's the first step.

Speaker 2 (00:22:25):

Okay. I didn't know that Joe was your intern at first.

Speaker 4 (00:22:27):

Yeah, he interned me for me. Okay, here we go. This is a great case in point. Sorry, I'll let you guys do some talking here in a second. You get me fired up now at the Hate and the fire is coming out. Joe interned me for me for a year and a few months for free. Okay. Paid for his own gas. He didn't have a job at the time, so he was living off lake. He had like 10 or $12,000 saved up and he lived off that money very frugally and very intelligently, drove out 20 minutes each way a day, came and sat with me. Sometimes he would come in on the weekends at five in the morning to do bullshit tasks and stay there until midnight with me because that's what it took. And you know what? Then he became a mix assistant and he started helping me and Joey slam out gajillions of songs and just doing what we do.

(00:23:13):

And now he owns a third of a company and he's doing fantastic. So there you go's. Awesome man. I mean, that's the kind of guy I want on my team. I want somebody that I know if I am in another side of the planet and I don't have a cell phone and something goes wrong, don't have, I'm not going to lose a single threat of sleepover. I know that guy is going to take care of shit. He's going to get it under control and it's not going to be a problem. So there it is. It's not hard to succeed at doing this. It's not. Amen. You just have to put in the fucking work.

Speaker 3 (00:23:45):

Absolutely. It just comes down to giving it 100% all the time. There

Speaker 4 (00:23:48):

It is.

Speaker 2 (00:23:49):

Well, I was going to ask you, do you have an assistant, like a paid assistant at this point?

Speaker 3 (00:23:55):

Yeah, at this point I do. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:23:56):

And was he ever an intern?

Speaker 3 (00:23:58):

Yeah, for about at least a year.

Speaker 2 (00:24:02):

There you go. And what was it about him that, why did he graduate? How did he graduate into getting

Speaker 3 (00:24:08):

Paid? Yeah, he ruled. I mean, he is really good. His name's Colin. Colin sch wonky. Hi Colin. Yep. He had a lot to bring to the table. First of all, he has an ear, so he's musically trained. He was able to tune vocals and figure out the key of songs and had a brain what

Speaker 4 (00:24:33):

Had a brain.

Speaker 3 (00:24:34):

Had a brain. Yeah. Well, he was just musically savvy, so that always that helped.

Speaker 4 (00:24:38):

Yeah, it's important. Not a lot of guys have that coming in that will intern. Seriously. People will start interning for me. They'll be like, do you play any instruments? No. Do you sing? Do you? No. What do you do? I make beats on Fruity Loops. What the fuck? You want to record bands?

Speaker 3 (00:24:53):

Yeah. I mean there are guys out there who can make it doing that, but just depending on what kind of bands you're working with, sometimes you got to know a little bit of music theory and scales and finding keys to songs and stuff to tune vocals.

Speaker 4 (00:25:09):

Yeah, that's important. I just wanted to reiterate that it's so important.

Speaker 3 (00:25:12):

Absolutely, and that's why being in a band, we haven't really touched much on it, but my band brought me because I was in a band throughout high school and that's just kind of where I learned to be a musician and where I fell in love with it. But back to Colin really quick, so he was also a musician, so his pocket, he can put vocals in time, knows how to rock that. And then I remember the first time that he worked with me, one of the things that was really impressive when I was doing this hit the lights record. He took the tracks and added a bunch of electronic stuff, synth some effects, some swells, just some additional production just on his own time it and showed it to me and I was kind of blown away and I used a lot of it. And so he's been doing that kind of stuff for my records. If you listen to the state champs record, there's a lot of synths and weird things happening. A lot of that was Colin,

Speaker 2 (00:26:09):

Let me take a second to interrupt you and just say that those of you who don't know Kyle is coming on nail the mix and actually doing a state champs song called Secrets. So if you are not subscribed to Nail the Mix, go to nail the mix.com/state champs and sign up. You will get the stems raw stems that is not processed raw stems for the song secrets. You'll be able to enter in a mix competition with your mix where you can win a focal set of er headphones that's a thousand dollars pair of headphones. You'll get to do a q and a live call with Kyle where you can ask him anything you want about anything, all the way from what he's wearing to how he got state champs to sound fucking incredible. And then at the end of the month, Kyle will be coming to my studio in Orlando and mixing the song for you live on camera and answering your questions. So with that, let's get back to talking about Colin and his awesome abilities to enhance your productions.

Speaker 4 (00:27:14):

Can I interject rudely for one second? Go ahead. Just say how excited I am that Kyle's going to be mixing. Dude, that mix you sent me the other day to listen to it sounds fucking dope.

Speaker 2 (00:27:24):

Yes.

Speaker 4 (00:27:24):

I ain't playing. I'm like, this is awesome. I can't wait for nail the mix.

Speaker 2 (00:27:27):

Wow.

Speaker 4 (00:27:27):

So you guys appreciate it. Kyle's work is obviously fantastic or we wouldn't be having him here and he wouldn't have had such an amazing career so far. So thank you so much. Anytime I feel like you have an opportunity to learn from something like that, you'd be foolish not to because man, when I started doing this, there was nothing like that. You couldn't just watch some badass dude mix a song from scratch, show you what they do and interact and ask him questions. It was impossible unless you had an internship. So

Speaker 3 (00:27:55):

I love what you guys are doing.

Speaker 4 (00:27:57):

Thank you. Thank you.

Speaker 3 (00:27:58):

We appreciate it. I appreciate it and I know everyone else out there does too. It's super cool and thank you for having me.

Speaker 2 (00:28:03):

Well, dude, we're stoked about it and we're also really, really glad it's not just another metal guy. We're, we're glad that we're going to be doing something in another genre. We believe that even though we do a lot of metal, we want our audience and our students to really learn how to do all different genres

Speaker 3 (00:28:26):

Of,

Speaker 2 (00:28:27):

Maybe it's going to be rock and heavy stuff, and that's fine if that's main thing, but you really should, if you want to do heavy music, you really should learn how to do pop, punk metal, some rock, all the different flavors of it because it will all influence your mix and production decisions in a good way.

Speaker 3 (00:28:46):

Absolutely. Yeah, I started doing a lot of heavy stuff back when I started. I was mainly doing heavy stuff, but I also had a thing for great vocalists and melodies and stuff, so I'm with you on that. So I eventually, actually a cool funny story I think is one record that I did recently was called Chunk No Captain Chunk, and before that I,

Speaker 2 (00:29:15):

We've had them on Nail the Mix by the way.

Speaker 3 (00:29:17):

Right. Bert is amazing and so is his brother. They're such great guys and extremely talented.

Speaker 4 (00:29:22):

Yeah, he can record great too and all that stuff. He's a really good

Speaker 3 (00:29:25):

Producer. Oh my God. Honestly, that was one of my favorite records to work on. It was just them two and they're just such wise kids when it comes down to songwriting and producing and coming up with parts and they have a really interesting way of writing music. So it was great to be a part of, but what I was getting at is there was a time before that record where I was going back and forth from heavy stuff to Poppy stuff. For example, the Shy Ude record that I engineered the latest one, and then I did the Comeback Kid record. I did a handful of all this heavy stuff and then I was going back and forth from a bunch of pop punk bands. What was I doing? I got to look at my website really quick, but I was just doing not heavy stuff.

(00:30:13):

So anyways, but I was into it. I loved it. I loved going back and forth, and then one day I just got, and I remember in the back of my head one day, I was like, man, I heard this band chunk. I was like, dude, this is the perfect band for me. They're so heavy and they have catchy hooks and melodies and stuff, and I'm like, I have got to work with this band. Then just somehow the stars aligned and they were actually interested in working with me, and they hit me up after they had heard the Comeback Kid record that I did. I was just unbelievably stoked. I love that record.

Speaker 2 (00:30:47):

Did they fly all the way from France and hang with you in la? For

Speaker 3 (00:30:51):

Sure did. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:30:52):

Nice.

Speaker 3 (00:30:52):

That

Speaker 2 (00:30:53):

Was one of my favorite nail the mixes. Joey did one of their records and I wasn't involved. I didn't know Joey yet then, so that was kind of my introduction to the band. But we had Bert on the q and a call and he's just struck me as super intelligent and

Speaker 3 (00:31:10):

That

Speaker 2 (00:31:11):

Song is so damn catchy. Right,

Speaker 3 (00:31:13):

Right. Well, which one? The new one? Fantastic band.

Speaker 2 (00:31:17):

No, no, it wasn't the new one. Which song is it? Again? I'm terrible with song names. I'm checking right now. Now

Speaker 3 (00:31:23):

It's probably all

Speaker 4 (00:31:23):

Of them

Speaker 3 (00:31:24):

Bipolar Minds. It was off the record that Joey did, I'm assuming.

Speaker 2 (00:31:27):

Yeah,

Speaker 3 (00:31:27):

Dude, let me tell you, man, I was so intimidated after knowing that they were coming from Joey Sturgis and I was like, Jesus, dude, I really got to get my drum sounds down. I mean, I still think Joey's mix, at least drum wise, slays pretty hard, but I did my best to get there.

Speaker 2 (00:31:51):

I heard yours. It sounds

Speaker 4 (00:31:52):

Phenomenal. Well, you did great. It sounds fantastic.

Speaker 2 (00:31:53):

Yeah, thanks, man. The song is called Restart. Yeah. Joey's a tough act to follow, but I think that if, I mean your stuff Rules, man. Thanks, dude. I don't think you got anything to worry about or had anything to worry about, but competition's a good thing, I think.

Speaker 3 (00:32:10):

Absolutely. Oh, it's what it's all about. It's the only way you can get better. Even when I did that Comeback Kid Record, I mean, look, doing records like that still till this day blow my mind that I actually did those records and knowing that Comeback Kid came did three records with Bill Stevenson, I was shitting my pants. So I was like, oh my God, what are these guys hearing that I'm doing? I didn't really get it. I mean, so at the time Andrew had liked the shy elude record that I did. Anyways, my point is the competition is you got to beat the last guy, not in a harmful way, but you just got to do better than everyone else is doing. Yeah,

Speaker 4 (00:33:00):

I think this is a great topic. This kind of came up last night when I was on that live stream again, it won't be last night when people actually listened to this, but someone asked me about ego and how to control it and how to talk to bands and things like that, and just in general, and one of the things I said is that anybody that is good at this stuff obviously knows that they're good to some degree. You know what I mean? The competitive side of you, which is what I would call a really positive ego, is you want to be the best that you can. You want to obviously do, if you pick up a cool record, you want to beat the guy before you or at least do as good or not get totally smoked.

(00:33:39):

That's the kind of ego that you need to have. What makes you competitive, that's what makes you get better. At the same time, you need that humility because where people screw up is they take that head, oh, I'm great. I'm the best, I'm blah, blah, blah. And reality is, and none of us are, we all have so many things individually that we have to work on that we're weak at, et cetera. So just having the mentality of a perpetual student and always trying to maintain that level of humility no matter how good you are, how great your credits are, et cetera. So it can kind of be like an ebb and flow, and when you're working with artists, sometimes you have to come in and have really strong confidence and ego like, listen, I fucking know what's going on. You need to listen to me. And sometimes it is absolutely the wrong approach. So you got to read the situation and you got to know what you're getting into. But I think part of, but sometimes it's good though. Yeah. It's like you need that driving force. You have to keep it in check and stay humble with it, but you need to have that competitive edge. It's so important.

Speaker 2 (00:34:32):

Well, there's a reason for why restaurants in New York City are incredible and are better than the restaurants in Orlando, and it has to do with the fact that there's competition. Those guys have to be on their a plus plus plus game at all times or they're going to die, whereas in Orlando, not necessarily you can be a b plus in Orlando and be considered an A, whereas in New York, you're an A minus and you're already shitty, and so it's just important to survive. You have to keep that edge, and I dig it when it can be sportsmanlike to where you can be friends with your competitors and actually find ways to help each other out because then you can learn from each other and

Speaker 3 (00:35:20):

Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (00:35:21):

I dunno, I come from an abundance mindset where I believe that there's enough for everybody to go around. There's enough seats at the table, and so we can all learn from each other as opposed to the scarcity mindset where people act like dogs that are protecting their food bowls. So it's two completely different ways to look at the world, and they both might have some truth to them, but a lot of life is mindset. So if you look at it from an abundance mindset that there's enough for anybody, competition actually becomes an opportunity to learn and to get better.

Speaker 4 (00:35:55):

What's funny about that is sometimes your most brutal competitors at some point in your life can actually end up becoming some of your best friends and eventually teammates and you know what I mean? It's crazy how many people I think of going back were I had heard of that person and we didn't get along and we competed for years, and now we rent across the hall from each other and we're really good friends and we don't compete at all. We work, we help each other out. So that's one of a million scenarios.

Speaker 3 (00:36:23):

Totally, and when it comes down to it in the end, when a band makes that decision of who they're going to work with, they're going to pick the right guy for the right project.

Speaker 2 (00:36:32):

It's kind of like two guys going for the same girl or something. It's like, you're not going to sweet talk the girl, she's going to pick who's better for her in her opinion. Exactly. There's nothing you can do about it. Yep. They may as well just be okay with it. So let's switch gears and start and talk some more technical stuff.

Speaker 3 (00:36:52):

Sure.

Speaker 2 (00:36:52):

So just to break the ice, what's your favorite piece of gear in your studio right now? The one thing, and don't say a computer, but what's your favorite piece of gear right now and if you can't name one, name two.

Speaker 3 (00:37:06):

Oh, geez. I mean, I love my Neve Preamps. That's great. I think those are the bomb. Those

Speaker 4 (00:37:12):

Are really hard not to, aren't they?

Speaker 3 (00:37:14):

I love my Shadow Hills compressor.

Speaker 4 (00:37:19):

Which one do you have?

Speaker 3 (00:37:20):

All of which you are guys are listening to right now. I'm talking into my manly microphone into the Neve Shadow Hills Compressor.

Speaker 4 (00:37:28):

Which comp do you have from Shadow Hills?

Speaker 3 (00:37:30):

Just the regular mono,

Speaker 4 (00:37:31):

Like the Opto or the Vander graft or the

Speaker 3 (00:37:34):

Mastering

Speaker 4 (00:37:34):

Comp?

Speaker 3 (00:37:35):

Not the mastering, I guess it's the Opto.

Speaker 4 (00:37:37):

Ah, the Opto graft. That is Dude, Kyle. That is one of my favorite fucking compressors.

Speaker 1 (00:37:42):

I

Speaker 4 (00:37:42):

Love it so much. I have the mastering comp and part of it is the opto section, and when I'm recording, I'll record anything that I can possibly record through that, even if I'm not compressing. I love how it sounds so much and the transformer options are so sick. It's such a beautiful piece of equipment.

Speaker 3 (00:37:58):

It's really good. I like that you can compress the shit out of things and it doesn't sound like it's being compressed or it doesn't sound unnatural. It's

Speaker 4 (00:38:07):

Amazing how it does that. You look at it in the DAW, it's like a flat line and you're like, oh, I crushed it, but then it's like a two to one ratio and it's not really that compressed. It's crazy.

Speaker 3 (00:38:16):

Yeah, it's sick. It's similar to the transparent kind of design of Alan Smart C two or something like that.

Speaker 4 (00:38:23):

Yeah.

Speaker 3 (00:38:24):

So yeah, I would say those are my favorite pieces of gear.

Speaker 2 (00:38:26):

Is your process mainly hybrid?

Speaker 3 (00:38:28):

What do you mean by that?

Speaker 2 (00:38:30):

So when you're mixing, for instance, do you mix in the box or do you use a lot of outboard inserts as well? Yeah, come out into the C two, Alan Smart C

Speaker 3 (00:38:39):

Two.

Speaker 4 (00:38:39):

Any other pieces in your chain? EQs, anything fun? I have a summing box. Oh, cool. What are you using?

Speaker 3 (00:38:46):

Dangerous Good stuff. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (00:38:47):

You got the two bus or maybe have you seen the new one that came out with the two Bus plus?

Speaker 3 (00:38:53):

Yeah, I have.

Speaker 4 (00:38:54):

Dude, I wanted to try that so bad. It looks fricking sick. Like those features they've added. Oh man, I've got the tone ux. I love that thing. The ooc B 16, I had the SSL Sigma, which also sounded great, but it was just too much of a pain in the ass for me in terms of my workflow because the DCA digitally controlled analog fader thing, it was amazing and it was the best thing to ever have in a summing box, except in my ethernet didn't work in my new building and I couldn't port it over into my system.

Speaker 3 (00:39:25):

I think summing helps a bunch. I think that it gives it a good stereo separation and makes it nice and wide and

Speaker 4 (00:39:37):

It's got that front to back thing too. That 3D, I picture it when I listen to an all digital mix, I think of it looks like a flat sheet of paper if I visualize it in front of my face coming out of my speakers, whereas I see spheres and I can see round instruments when I'm doing a console or a summing mixer.

Speaker 2 (00:39:54):

It's also when you take a hit of acid.

Speaker 3 (00:39:58):

Yeah,

Speaker 4 (00:39:58):

I would say you need to put that on my list of things to try.

Speaker 3 (00:40:02):

I would say if any listeners out there are trying to improve their mix game, getting some kind of summing unit, it's an investment because you got to buy an interface that has enough outs and the IO needs to be good quality for it to make sense, and it's a lot of fun taking it out. You have a lot more head room, you can make much more dynamic mixes. Things tend to not be as muddy, I think.

Speaker 4 (00:40:29):

Yeah, it's worth a try. You got to try it now. We will establish one little caveat to that.

Speaker 2 (00:40:34):

It ain't going to fix shitty eq.

Speaker 4 (00:40:36):

Yeah, it ain't going to fix shitty monitoring. It ain't going to fix the fact that you're monitoring in a bedroom versus have those important ducks in the row first. But you get to a point where you're starting to get good and your fundamentals are down, then it's worth trying a summing mixer because it's not for everybody, but if it's for you, you'll open it up, you'll use it and you'll fall in love with it and you'll be like, how the hell did I mix without this my whole life? Right,

Speaker 3 (00:41:02):

Totally. It's definitely a thing that I like.

Speaker 2 (00:41:05):

At what point in someone's development do you think that they should start looking into things like a summing box or something mix?

Speaker 3 (00:41:15):

I think when they're making enough money to afford it, really. But then again, I mean sometimes if you're a fan of wide sounding records and the left and being super huge, and then you'll want to start getting out of the box and using some outboard gear. If you're a fan of heavy narrow mixes, which isn't a bad thing. I think a lot of in the box records sound, sorry. A lot of heavy records sound great in the box because it's probably a bit warmer and bigger sounding down the center. Does that make sense at all? Yes. So it comes down to a preference thing. Did I answer your question

Speaker 2 (00:42:00):

Well, you said that once they can afford it, which to me means it's not a frivolous thing to buy. No.

Speaker 3 (00:42:07):

Yeah. So yeah, that's kind of my point is if you can afford it, try it out and see if it's something that you like. But that's kind of an interesting thing about this show is that everyone's telling how they do things and maybe some people might feel threatened or something like giving away their secrets or the stuff that they use, but it really all comes down to someone's ear and preference.

Speaker 2 (00:42:37):

It's funny you say that because when I've been doing the audio education thing for going on four years now, I had, my first creative live was in 2013 and we're now in the beginning of year four and it's been going great. And when I first started, this doesn't happen so much anymore. I don't even hear about it anymore, but when I first started, I faced a lot of resistance from, because that's when I was making records all the time and involved with records, whether I was producing or engineering or mixing or mix engineering or assisting. I was handling all the roles on between five and eight records a month for years. And a lot of people started to hate me for this saying that I'm giving away the keys of the castle or giving the secrets away, but I just don't agree with that. There are no secrets to give away. Thank you. All we do is teach concepts and workflows. We can't give you our ears.

Speaker 4 (00:43:43):

You can watch nail the mix and you can watch a lot of really awesome mixers now, and we have so many cool guests coming and things like that. There's going to be a wealth of excellent people to learn from, and you can come in and watch nail the mix, but it isn't going to do the fucking work for you.

(00:44:00):

You can sit there and watch Kyle Mix a song and you're not going to be able to mix like Kyle, you have to do the work. You have to develop the ear. You can pick up workflow, you can pick up concepts. I always try to put it like this. I think we're teaching people how to solve problems now. I feel like it's an uphill battle because as much as I want it to be like that, and I have this idealistic fantasy that we are teaching people how to solve problems, how we're approaching it, everybody's just like, yo, where's the preset? And you're like, dude, you're missing the point. There's no preset, man. Come on. I use this compressor on a lot of different shit because it solves a particular problem and it's fast and efficient. It fits into my workflow, but I can use any other compressor and would gladly do so. It doesn't matter. The point is the concept, not the tool. So just because I used L one on 400 times in that mix doesn't mean you should.

Speaker 3 (00:44:50):

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, no, for sure. I remember back in the day when the Pintado place started up, I was like, oh my God, I can't believe this guy is doing what he's doing. And then so that happened and then I think I saw a couple other things and I was kind of watching all these people do their mixes. I even watched the Andrew Wade thing, and I'm kind of realizing that all of us, we really use, we are using the same tools, the plugins, everything's in this digital domain, which kind of puts everyone at a similar playing field. And what sets yourself apart is just how you use the tools really.

Speaker 4 (00:45:36):

And the cool thing is by watching a lot of different people work, you're going to develop and take different things out of those. So you'll see somebody do something like Andrew or Kyle or Al or whoever, they're going to do something and you'll be like, oh, that's cool. I've never really thought about approaching it like that. So I'm going to try playing with that in my workflow. And it may not port one-to-one into your own workflow. It may be a little bit weird, but because of that, it inspires something. You're like, whoa, I've never thought about it like this. And then you end up,

(00:46:04):

Originally I think you were going to come in at point A, but you end up at d and d is actually a really cool thing and you're like, wow, this is really awesome. And then it becomes a part of your workflow and then it helps your sound. So we're like, by all of us doing this and everybody's sharing their knowledge and information, we're actually all getting better at this and all of us are learning. And hopefully it helps progress along the industry because since the big studio model has come down, there's just so much of a lack. You don't have the great mentorships and internship opportunities that used to be available where you could go in and watch some amazing A-list, dude rip out mixes all day and absorb that like a sponge. So I think this is probably the next closest thing possible without having to leave your house.

Speaker 3 (00:46:46):

Did you guys got the coolest thing going on? For sure. I agree. That's why I'm here, man. It's cool. Let's got some more tech stuff.

Speaker 2 (00:46:53):

Cool. Let's get specific. Cool. Tracking heavy rhythm guitars. What's your preferred method?

Speaker 3 (00:47:02):

Keep it super simple. I've got this guitar cabinet that I really love that I thought sounded great. I heard it in Guitar Center. It's a Marshall, it's a Marshall hand wired thing. What's

Speaker 2 (00:47:14):

In it?

Speaker 3 (00:47:15):

So it's got these hybrid speakers that I asked the guy at the store, I'm like, why does this cabinet sound so good? What's in here? Is it vintage thirties or is it greenbacks? And he's like, it's neither. It's actually like this hybrid thing called, gosh, shit, I don't even remember what he said.

Speaker 4 (00:47:33):

Is it the G 12 H thirties maybe, which is a hybrid greenback. I have a pair of those that I wired into a cabinet and I use those a lot on a lot of records. For example, when I did vinyl theater, that was the guitar tone. It's

Speaker 3 (00:47:46):

Got to be something like that. It's not a vintage 30 and it's not a green back.

Speaker 4 (00:47:50):

Yeah, but is it like a hybrid of the two, because that's what it's called.

Speaker 3 (00:47:53):

That's what he told me. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (00:47:54):

Yeah. G 12 H thirties, I believe is what they're called special. That's a really cool speaker. It's got a lot of great characteristics of both. And for pop punk and stuff like that, it's a great sound.

Speaker 3 (00:48:04):

Totally. It sounds super. I can use it on heavy stuff and I could use it on any record. It just sounds a lot more clearer and crisper than just a straight mesa cab with vintage thirties, but it still sounds heavy. So anyways, I got a 4 21 and a 57 on that, and I blend it. I blend those together using my API 3 1 4 twos. Do you have any phase issues ever? No. I just throw 'em up and if it sounds good, it's good. I don't overthink the phase, I just throw 'em up. Like not dead center, but in between the center and the outside, right on the corner of that circle. You know what I'm talking about? Yep.

Speaker 4 (00:48:47):

Yes.

Speaker 3 (00:48:49):

And then you blend 'em, and then I throw that through my shadow hills and I kiss it. A little trick I learned from Dan Cornif, if he's listening, we

Speaker 2 (00:48:59):

Love Dan. Dan's actually been on here twice.

Speaker 3 (00:49:02):

I know, I've heard it. My band did a record with Dan, Dan and David Beith.

Speaker 2 (00:49:09):

Dan is the shit,

Speaker 3 (00:49:10):

And he's extremely sweet, nice guy. We keep in contact and he's just a really helpful guy. Not really going to meet anyone as nice as him probably. Hopefully he'll come on nail the mix. Oh, I hope he does. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:49:24):

Alright, so go on.

Speaker 3 (00:49:25):

But he'll probably need his SSL, right? That's fine. We'll go to him. Right? That'd be sick.

(00:49:29):

You have cameras? So Yeah. So anyways, that's my chain for the guitars. I use these really expensive cables that cost like a hundred bucks each, which just sound better than regular cables. What do I do? I split it with the JD seven and then I'll have the DI for editing purposes. Very rarely will I reamp. Why is that? I mean, for sure, I think that there's quality loss when you re-amp something. Yep. So you can always do it, but you're going to lose something. It's not going to be much and not really detectable, but I think if you'd nail the tone right from the beginning, that's really what you want to do.

Speaker 2 (00:50:14):

You're absolutely right. And it's funny, the guy who I talk about this the most often with is Andrew Wade. Ben, I have always felt like something in amping. I don't know, something gets lost in translation.

Speaker 4 (00:50:28):

There is something, it's hard to quantify scientifically. Sorry to piss anybody off by saying that, but dude, it's real. Not that it's a problem, but

Speaker 3 (00:50:39):

You can't get around it. You'll certainly have a crisper cleaner sound if you're just right into the amp or into your splitter. Even the splitter adds a little bit of loss of something. But anyways, but I mean amping, I'll lead guitars and shit if I want to try some weird thing. But yeah, you have a Bogner ecstasy. I mean that was on the main rhythms for that for most of my records. And then for Clean and Midtones, I use this amp called the Divided by 13.

Speaker 2 (00:51:09):

Let's talk about your Bogner ecstasy for a second. I have one of those. I have sold a lot of my gear and kept some. I've only kept the stuff that I think you shouldn't ever sell. So I've had the Bogner Ecstasy for 10 years now, and I would never sell that thing. One of the best $3,000 I've ever spent.

Speaker 4 (00:51:30):

That's not making me want one. I hate you guys,

Speaker 2 (00:51:32):

Dude. But here's the thing about it. You can get really bad tones with it too, because there's so many options that you can Yeah, it's not just one of those amps that's got a 51 50 block letter where it's kind of the settings and it doesn't do much else, but it does that one thing. Great. Ecstasy is

Speaker 4 (00:51:54):

So you're going to give us that preset or what? It's

Speaker 2 (00:51:56):

Like three amps in one. Tell us more about what you like about it and how you figured it out and what channels you like.

Speaker 3 (00:52:04):

Sure. I mean, what I like about it is that the EQs are so powerful when you use an EQ like an Eve or something and you twist the knob and it's just like, holy shit, look at that. Listen to that gets so much brighter. Or the bass is like, I guess I don't know how to explain it. It's very dynamic, the eq. So you can find all these different ranges of guitar tone really, and it sounds heavy as fuck enough gain. You've got enough gain for, you have way too much gain with that kind of amp. And so I don't know. That's what I like about it. It's just powerful, versatile and powerful.

Speaker 2 (00:52:49):

Do you like one of the channels better than the other by any chance? Not

Speaker 3 (00:52:53):

Really. I mean the green, the blue and the red channel are super similar. Just the red sounds like crazy heavy. And then the blue is the blue. I would probably use that on a pop punk record. If I was doing the chunk record, I had it on the red. You know what I mean? It's like that kind of thing. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:53:09):

I think the Green Channel is beautiful, but that's the

Speaker 3 (00:53:13):

Clean one.

Speaker 2 (00:53:14):

No, no, I said beautiful for cleans.

Speaker 3 (00:53:16):

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Fundamental moments. I tend to not use that channel. I use my I Divided by 13. It's a lot less power on the amp and it has a really sick reverb and stuff, so I actually rarely use the Green Channel.

Speaker 2 (00:53:37):

I've heard of Divided by 13. It's one of those cool companies.

Speaker 4 (00:53:41):

Yeah, Bonner's closed. You guys are posers using clean tones, man. I only use right channels and that's it. If it ain't metal, it ain't worth recording

Speaker 2 (00:53:51):

Except for one. It is. You want to move on to

Speaker 4 (00:53:53):

Bass or something?

Speaker 2 (00:53:54):

Yeah, let's move on to Bass or keep talking to Guitar Amps.

Speaker 4 (00:53:55):

Let's do it

Speaker 2 (00:53:56):

Both.

Speaker 4 (00:53:57):

We don't like bass players because Al and I are both guitar players. You play at all?

Speaker 3 (00:54:01):

Yeah. I'm mainly a bass player

Speaker 4 (00:54:03):

For sure. I was a bass player back. You want to start a band now? We got a full band here.

Speaker 2 (00:54:06):

I got to say that I play guitar, but I prefer playing bass in the studio a lot more. It's a lot more fun.

Speaker 4 (00:54:12):

Do you? Yeah, if you guys want to gang up on me, that's cool. Well,

Speaker 2 (00:54:16):

That's the number one instrument I end up replacing people with and it's just fun. But yeah,

Speaker 4 (00:54:22):

It is fun playing bass on records.

Speaker 2 (00:54:24):

Yeah, it's a lot of fun, so. Alright, absolutely. Let's talk about your preferred method for tracking bass.

Speaker 3 (00:54:29):

Sure. Bass is the hardest thing to track for some reason. For me, I usually end up not liking the amp sound I got or some shit like that and I'll use a lot of the di or I'll amping it. I could tell you my favorite chain, it's not what I own right now. The best tone I've gotten is just, I mean hands down like the eg either the big classic or the vintage VR vrs, vintage reissues sounds sick, put into pase through that, into a good cabinet, into a good microphone. I mean, I think a lot it has to do with the next stage of the chain, which would be a Neve preamp, which is always good. Or actually have these burl preamps, which are super similar to Neves. And then you take that and then pop it into an LA two A I think an LA two A is the best for base recording. And then so that would be the amp signal and then the I actually, I would also use either that Avalon thing into an 1176 or the B one burl into the 1176 again, or I guess I like the Burls the best for base di have

Speaker 4 (00:55:51):

You ever tried the converters?

Speaker 3 (00:55:55):

The bomber B two?

Speaker 4 (00:55:56):

Yeah,

Speaker 3 (00:55:58):

I've been in a studio with it. They sound fucking awesome.

Speaker 4 (00:56:00):

I was going to say, if you haven't tried that and you like the preamps man, do yourself a favor and just do it. Just go try it. I have a mothership that I'll show you how much I like it. Yeah. I had to literally extract a kidney with a sharp object and then sell it on the black market to buy it because I've got like 12 in and 16 out. But dude, I mean that running into a summing mixer, it's pretty badass. I mean,

Speaker 3 (00:56:27):

The

Speaker 4 (00:56:28):

Thing about the Burls, the first time I ever recorded a guitar with them,

(00:56:32):

I was just like, dude, that is the bottom end. I've always wanted to hear on a guitar my entire life. It just had this tightness and size that I wasn't getting with any other converter I'd ever tried. And I shot out a lot of them. When I got the bomber, I got the bomber in just based off of hype. This is supposed to be the shit. Let's see if it's any good. And it was so the shit that I was like, all right, I bought it then sold it a year later and bought a mother ship and just said, screw it all other converters. I don't even, damn.

Speaker 3 (00:56:58):

That's amazing. Worth

Speaker 4 (00:56:59):

It.

Speaker 3 (00:57:00):

It awesome. I have recorded with a burl mothership before and it was sick. It sounded really good. A lot more warmer and bigger sounding than just a regular pro tool system.

Speaker 2 (00:57:12):

Lots of guys that come on never record base amps anymore. I know you're talking about Burls now and not the amp, but do you ever just go di Now

Speaker 3 (00:57:23):

I do sometimes when I'm being lazy. Good answer. Yeah, but no, I mean ideally I think having a really good amp sound is what you want to, is what you want do. But my point about what I was saying earlier is it's hard to get a great base amp sound and that's why there's so many simulators that can beat it right now. Currently I think using a DI with that CLA base plugin, I've used that on just a bunch of records, but if I can nail a sick bass tone and it sounds good and usable, I will use it. I think on the state champs, that was not just, that was my chain that I recorded the best I could into a Neve into what did I have at the time, 1178 on the amp or something. You just got to go after that amp tone and really work it like new strings, make sure the bass player's playing right. Make sure your the amp is really good and the base is set up well. What

Speaker 2 (00:58:30):

About the microphone? The

Speaker 3 (00:58:32):

Microphone? What about it? What did I use?

Speaker 2 (00:58:35):

Well, yeah, what are your go-tos for tracking base?

Speaker 3 (00:58:38):

Some kind of fat kind of microphone currently have this blue mouse fat thing that sounds really good. And I also have this heel like PR 40 or something like that. Both of those work well. Those are inexpensive mics that work well on low end kind of stuff.

Speaker 2 (00:58:57):

And when you're miking up a bass cab, we talked about miking a guitar cab. How do you go about it with a bass cab? Do you get right up on it or some guys to give it a little distance? Yeah,

Speaker 3 (00:59:08):

I mean I hate muddy sounding bass. I really love Clear base where the bottom end sounds super pillowy and clear and the top end is nice and crispy. So I tend to just put it directly in front dead center on the speaker of a bass cabinet. There's going to be plenty of low end, but it's grabbing that brilliance and the brightness of a bass guitar. That's always really difficult and

Speaker 2 (00:59:35):

You can get plenty of low end from the DI anyways if you need to.

Speaker 3 (00:59:39):

Yeah, that too. Do you ever

Speaker 2 (00:59:41):

Blend them?

Speaker 3 (00:59:41):

Yeah, of course.

Speaker 2 (00:59:42):

So do you deal with phase issues there ever?

Speaker 3 (00:59:45):

I usually look inside Pro tools and line up the waves if they're out. Got it. You get the phase as best you can coming in and which is usually just flipping one of the phase switches. But if you really want to get in there during mix time, you go through and zoom in on those waves and match 'em up, scoot 'em over, get it right, yeah, write down to how many samples you moved it and then you do that to every song. Or you can use those endphase, that Endphase plugin from Waves. Super helpful.

Speaker 2 (01:00:17):

I've used that one. And then also there's Auto Aligned by Sound Rads. I like that one a lot too.

Speaker 3 (01:00:23):

Cool. I haven't used that.

Speaker 2 (01:00:24):

Well, it's really good. It's a lot like the Waves one, but it's better. The Waves one kind of gets a little confusing to me at times. The Sound RADS one is really great, but then UAD makes one as well, which is it's a recreation or an emulation of the little labs in phase tool.

Speaker 3 (01:00:47):

Nice.

Speaker 2 (01:00:48):

In my opinion, that's the best one. That's

Speaker 3 (01:00:49):

Cool. So the speaking of UAD stuff, I've never had a chance to use that stuff. It's phenomenal. And I hear, I don't know, should I trust you or should I trust all these people? Are you sure? Because it's fucking expensive, man. Well,

Speaker 2 (01:01:10):

There's a second part to what I was about to say.

Speaker 3 (01:01:12):

Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:01:13):

It's phenomenal, but the bang for the buck is arguable,

Speaker 3 (01:01:17):

Right? It seems like it.

Speaker 2 (01:01:19):

Yeah, that's the issue because we all know that you can make a great record with all stock plugins or

Speaker 3 (01:01:28):

Basic

Speaker 2 (01:01:29):

Waves plugins from 10, 15 years ago and be fine. So it's not like you need the most incredible plugins ever to make a great record. So the question is do you really feel like spending the money on something that you get limited instances of that you don't necessarily need? And then in that case it is questionable and it is arguable. However, they do sound great. And so I know some guys like Taylor Larson who love them and use them religiously and his stuff sounds incredible and he swears by it and people love him.

Speaker 3 (01:02:03):

I have heard Neil Aron is one of my favorite mixers of all time. I've been following him for 10, 15 years. Oh,

Speaker 4 (01:02:09):

He's sick.

Speaker 3 (01:02:09):

Yeah, he's my biggest influencer when it comes to mixing. I hear that he is in the box using UAD plugins and his shit sounds unreal.

Speaker 2 (01:02:20):

They are great plugins and especially if you're a really good mixer and you're using them, cool. But yeah, cost per the bang for the buck thing is definitely, if you're worried about price, maybe they're not worth it. I don't know. But they do sound great.

Speaker 3 (01:02:40):

It seems though maybe if someone's a professional mixer, they could and should look into that kind of stuff if they're making enough money to justify it is kind of what I'm getting at.

Speaker 2 (01:02:53):

If you're making enough money to justify it, I say why not check it out? You can always return it. It's like the plugins aren't going to work without the hardware, so you just return the hardware. But you could trust me on the fact that they sound great, not just me trust a lot of people, but

Speaker 3 (01:03:11):

How can a plugin sounds so much better than to me a plugin, all plugins almost sound. It's like they don't really do anything. It's just a little tool to change shit around.

Speaker 2 (01:03:23):

I know what you're saying. I think that what they say, and I'm not a programmer or anything like that, so

Speaker 4 (01:03:31):

I can enlighten you guys on this, but so go ahead, just finish and I'll weigh in.

Speaker 2 (01:03:35):

They say that the algorithms are, if they didn't use the hardware, they would bog the computer down too much, that much more complex than say the waves algorithms or whatever. And those more complex algorithms apparently get you a better quality of sound, and so they need the hardware to be able to run it so that it doesn't kill your computer.

Speaker 4 (01:03:58):

Okay. Yeah, no, it's very true. I don't want to give away something really cool and innovative that I think we're going to be doing on the drum for end at some point in time. I sit across from a programmer every single day and he is a fricking genius. Absolutely one of the smartest programming people I've ever met. I feel like he's the next Fabrice Gabriel. The guy's brilliant, and we have a lot of conversations. We come up with really crazy ideas and try to solve problems. We're like, what if we had a tool that did this or that? How would we do it or how would we approach this? So we've had a lot of good chats at the bar sitting there and nerding out about, we could run it off this and do it like this and blah, blah, blah. No one's ever done this before and we could do this.

(01:04:38):

And so I don't want to encourage all the other companies out there, so I'm just going to shut my mouth. But basically, yes, there is a lot of truth of what they're doing because running software off of your CPU and ram, you can only get so much power. So having an external card is great. The problem is if you're a guy like me and you have original UAD one that was badass 10 years ago and now it's laughable how not powerful those cards are. So the technology gets dated really quickly when you're doing that. But yeah, I mean obviously having all that processing power offline frees up your computer and you can really get much higher and more realistic modeling. But modeling

(01:05:18):

And realism, that's a really complicated topic and I hope I'm not going off topic too much. No, that's fine. No, you're good. But modeling is something I've had many, many long conversations about and I'm not a programmer, so don't quote me. I'm just kind of like the horse's ass here as opposed to the mouth. You're getting it from somebody way, way smarter about this shit than me funneling through me. So what I wanted to say is I was talking with my programmer the other day and we were talking about how do you model things accurately and one of the ways they do that is through a circuit simulation software called Splice. The problem with splices. It's way fucking out of date and it needs to be rewritten and you can model things at the component level. Another way is you can run tones and take measurements and et cetera through the gear and run sweeps and get a slightly less accurate picture based off of mathematics and algorithms and things like that. So

Speaker 3 (01:06:12):

There's

Speaker 4 (01:06:12):

A lot of different ways to do it, but the technology, the point of this all is the technology has a long ass way to go and there's some really creative ways to get around it in theory that I've heard, but it's an issue of sitting down and having those types of people implement that sort of design in real life. So that's kind of like the layman's understanding of programming. So the technology's cool and it's great that they have all these accelerated cards, but the method, the bus is still kind of broken, you know what I mean? You're still taking the bus, but you want to drive a car, if that makes sense.

Speaker 2 (01:06:45):

Got it. That spoiler you put on the Honda might make it a little more aerodynamic, but it's still just a Honda.

Speaker 4 (01:06:52):

Yeah, exactly. Plugins are badass, they're great. Are they going to model hardware one-to-one? Not yet. We got a ways to go from what I understand and there's some things we can't even fricking measure yet. We were talking to Gregory Scott about this now. That was a really fascinating conversation. That's

Speaker 2 (01:07:08):

The dude, the UBK guy makes incredible EQ and all kinds of stuff. Awesome.

Speaker 4 (01:07:15):

Yeah, the plugins are really good, but I have the hardware so when you compare it, you're like, man, there's just that extra sauce. But hey man, I'll take the plugin any day. I love it and I'm so happy I have a hardware one, so there you go.

Speaker 2 (01:07:26):

Sick. So, alright, let's talk about tracking drums. Do you have any preference in your setup for drum tracking or mic placements?

Speaker 3 (01:07:34):

Oh boy. I love drum tracking. It's one of my favorite things to do. Same here. I think when it comes down to preference, I mean you always prefer the most expensive shit, but sometimes you just can't get your hands on it. So I'm not really going to get into that too much. But I mean I think when it comes down to recording the drum, it needs to be, the drum itself needs to be in good shape. It needs to be tuned really well. You got to have a really good snare and your symbol choices is very key. Make sure nothing's broken and make sure you got a solid set. One interesting thing about drum recording too is the size of symbols is kind of a big deal. Oh yeah. To get a great sounding drum performance basically, because literally the size of a symbol will, it should change per tempo because the simple fact of the bounce back on a symbol is super important. If you're recording a fast song, you can't have huge symbols or else it's not going to come back in time and it's just not going to sound in time. So

Speaker 2 (01:08:48):

Also the thickness. Sure,

Speaker 3 (01:08:50):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:08:51):

You want thinner symbols on faster things in my experience.

Speaker 3 (01:08:55):

Absolutely. And if it's a big slow song, use a big symbol so you get a lot of DK and it makes sense at a tempo just slow. But making sure the drummer's prepared and plays well to a click I think is really important. Do you want to talk about gear?

Speaker 2 (01:09:16):

Let's talk just the technical process of recording drums. And actually as a matter of fact, when I get asked about this, the first shit I talk about is the drummer and

Speaker 3 (01:09:25):

Those

Speaker 2 (01:09:26):

Types of things. I feel like tuning the drummer, the sticks, all that stuff, that's number one priority. All those things that's like you get all that shit right. The rest should be pretty easy.

Speaker 3 (01:09:42):

Yeah, it's the simple things like sticks like you're talking about.

Speaker 4 (01:09:45):

Isn't it always the fundamentals though in anything, whether it be producing, mixing, songwriting, engineering?

Speaker 2 (01:09:52):

Well, the thing is with drums, drums you've got so many moving pieces. You have so many pieces that you could fuck it all up by getting all the tuning wrong, for instance.

Speaker 3 (01:10:05):

Well tuning something the right way is I don't really tune like that because I don't think there's a right way to tune something because it's always subjective. I just tune the drums to how I like drums to sound, which is big and wet and roomy. So I'll make my shit ring out for as long as I can because I know that when I'm mixing, I am going to mix the drums with as much crack and compression as there's going to be plenty of crack when it comes down to mixing. If my drums are wet and ringy and long and decay, it's going to be okay and it's just going to add to the flavor of the drum sound. That's my thing. Another good trick is lug locks on a snare.

Speaker 2 (01:10:56):

Oh yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:10:58):

Keeping the drum snare in tune throughout a song is super key.

Speaker 2 (01:11:03):

Dude, I put those on the Toms too.

Speaker 3 (01:11:05):

Nice. Top and

Speaker 2 (01:11:06):

Bottom.

Speaker 3 (01:11:07):

It's really simple. If you want a good natural sound, like a dynamic sound, you got to make sure you record the drums correctly. And if your shit's falling out of tune and the drums kit sounds like shit, you're going to want to use samples and it's going to kind of lose. You're going to come up with a sound that is extremely common these days, which is very sampled and fake, which isn't really going to set you apart, isn't going to set your recordings apart. So I think that's a big thing is getting great natural drum sounds for sure.

Speaker 2 (01:11:44):

Well, I think that if a band, I'll say that some bands don't give a shit about real, but when a band says that they do, we always have the conversation about, well then you better realize that we are going to take some time upfront getting this right and you're going to be paying for this drum tech, Matt Brown to come in and we're going to be changing heads a lot and you're going to be not playing a lot because he's going to be tuning a lot and we're going to be doing this right. Otherwise, we're going to be using lots of samples and either way I can make it sound great, but if you want to go the natural way, which I prefer, we got to do this. Right, right.

Speaker 3 (01:12:25):

No

Speaker 2 (01:12:25):

Way

Speaker 3 (01:12:25):

Around it. And still using a sample on a real kit is totally fine.

Speaker 2 (01:12:32):

Of course,

Speaker 3 (01:12:33):

I'll use samples on every record. Oftentimes though, it's like a sample that I took from the kit, especially with the Toms on the state champs record I have, they'll have a snare sample in the session and it's the snare that I took. So that kind of helps you give a unique sound, which I think has helped me set myself apart from other producers and stuff like that. So Joel, how

Speaker 4 (01:13:01):

You doing? Good.

Speaker 3 (01:13:02):

Do you want to do a

Speaker 2 (01:13:02):

Quick rapid fire round?

Speaker 4 (01:13:04):

I kind of feel like we covered a lot of rapid fire, but

Speaker 2 (01:13:07):

We didn't do it on drums or vocal.

Speaker 4 (01:13:09):

Alright, so I'm going to yell off an instrument or something attached to a vocal chord and you can tell me what you use on it, how you record it or how you mix it, whatever you want. It's up to you. If you don't want to talk about it, you can be like, you can just pass on it and conceal. So alright. Screaming heavy background vocals, SM seven.

Speaker 3 (01:13:30):

You said screamy background vocals or just screamy vocals in general.

Speaker 4 (01:13:33):

Yeah, like screaming background. I want to punt on the question and just send a real softball because everybody's going to be all excited and salivating. They're going to be like, oh, come on dude. I just like to mix it up sometimes.

Speaker 3 (01:13:45):

Yeah, totally. I mean, never use an expensive mic on a loud screamer. You're just bound to ruin it. I've done that plenty of times. So an SM seven into my chain, which I talked about before, the Neve into the Shadow Hills, brighten it up because that SM seven is going to be a little dull

Speaker 4 (01:14:02):

Snare top

Speaker 3 (01:14:03):

57 into a eve preamp into a distress.

Speaker 4 (01:14:09):

Overheads

Speaker 3 (01:14:09):

Usually end up with four fourteens. Love neves. But I also think that, what is that great river stuff? Sounds super just like the Neve style. I think you could use a great river or a Burl or a Neve for overheads.

Speaker 4 (01:14:24):

Okay. Singing vocals for a female singer.

Speaker 3 (01:14:27):

I love this manly that I have. I bought it because it's super bright and crisp and you don't have to add a lot of top end to it. And it's actually an affordable mic. I would say that the Manly reference is a great choice.

Speaker 4 (01:14:41):

Acoustic guitar,

Speaker 3 (01:14:42):

I'll usually just throw my manly on it. Or another one that I really like is the Cam 180 4.

Speaker 4 (01:14:48):

Oh, right on.

Speaker 3 (01:14:49):

Great mic. Yeah, just something I really love clarity, so whatever I can get to that point is what I'll go after.

Speaker 4 (01:15:01):

And last but not least, kick in, meaning what would you put on the inside of your kick drum?

Speaker 3 (01:15:08):

Anything really, but I usually end up with one of those B 50 twos or the a kg one 12.

Speaker 4 (01:15:15):

Dude, have you ever tried a beta 52 on the beater side of the head?

Speaker 3 (01:15:19):

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what I'm talking about. Beta 52.

Speaker 4 (01:15:21):

Yeah, I could never get it on the front, the inside to get to sound good, but I don't remember. I was doing a drum forge session somewhere and the dude was like, dude, why don't you put that mic on the backside? I've never tried that mic. I threw it on the backside and I

Speaker 3 (01:15:34):

Listen to

Speaker 4 (01:15:35):

Playback.

Speaker 3 (01:15:36):

Holy

Speaker 4 (01:15:36):

Shit. Yeah, holy shit. Oh, that's weird shit. What a difference, man. I

Speaker 3 (01:15:40):

Haven't tried that.

Speaker 4 (01:15:41):

You got to try it. It's worth experimenting with and if it totally sucks, just send me a very angry email and tell me how disappointed you are. But when I tried it I was like, holy shit. Now it sounded super badass where

Speaker 3 (01:15:54):

Normally

Speaker 4 (01:15:55):

It was kind of dark and I don't know. I think I tried it at your place al too, but man, when I bet tried it on the backside of the kick by the pedal, I couldn't believe how sick it sounded. It made it sound more like a D six, more like aggressive D six

Speaker 3 (01:16:10):

Are fun.

Speaker 2 (01:16:11):

I love them.

Speaker 4 (01:16:12):

So I don't know. It's worth trying.

Speaker 3 (01:16:14):

I remember, I mean a while back I had a D six and it's just crazy that those microphones sound like they have an EQ on it. Yep. I used them on Tom's. Yeah. That's awesome.

Speaker 4 (01:16:23):

Yeah, bottom Tom mics are especially cool with the D six. I just want to, that's something I learned from Al. He had a D six on a bottom of a floor, Tom, or maybe it was a subick, I don't know. It was on the bottom of something and I was like, dude, that is the sickest shit. I went home and I immediately tried it and I was like, oh wow, I need 10 more D sixes because man, they really are cool on the bottom of Tom's.

Speaker 3 (01:16:44):

Absolutely good microphone for sure.

Speaker 2 (01:16:46):

I like about top two,

Speaker 4 (01:16:47):

They are sick there as well.

Speaker 2 (01:16:49):

Alright, we have a couple questions from the crowd. There's a crowd. Yeah, there is a crowd. Well, not right now, but they, they're in our Facebook group and they asked some questions.

Speaker 4 (01:16:59):

Oh, cool.

Speaker 2 (01:17:00):

We

Speaker 4 (01:17:00):

Could be mean and make them wait to the q and a.

Speaker 2 (01:17:04):

Well, that's why I'm not going to ask a crazy amount of these, but no,

Speaker 3 (01:17:07):

Bring it all. I'm ready.

Speaker 2 (01:17:09):

A couple of 'em we should go for. So here's one from Luke Mansel Ward, which is what are your go-to tips for getting the best take out of a vocalist and what's your decision process when deciding how to produce a vocalist, for example, which sections you double track and why?

Speaker 3 (01:17:24):

Okay. I mean, when it comes down to that, I love dynamic mixes and production, so I'm going to try and be as creative as I can when it comes to doubles and harmonies. So for example, if it's a verse, if it's intimate, you're not going to double it. You know what I mean? And if you're going to have a harmony, try and keep it mono so when the chorus hits, you can spread it, you can spread it with a double harmony, or sometimes you can even quad a vocal track in a chorus. I think just being dynamic with your selection, just how you want to build the song and how you want the final product to be.

Speaker 2 (01:18:05):

I think that a lot of people overthink these things and it just makes a lot of sense to follow the curve of the song in ways that it makes sense. I've seen guys who double all kinds of weird shit, but

Speaker 3 (01:18:19):

When

Speaker 2 (01:18:19):

It comes down to it, I really think that it's just a how do you want the vocals to feel at this part? Do you want them to feel huge or do you want them to feel intimate? Do you want this word to jump out more or not?

Speaker 3 (01:18:31):

Exactly. Well said, absolutely. I learned a lot from this guy, Matt Fox in a band called Shy Ude because we were doing a hardcore record. I'm like, I'm like, Hey man, don't you want to double everything because it's a hardcore band? And he's like, no, what are you talking about? And what he was after when we were doing vocals, we were recording Chad Gilbert and I actually wasn't producing the record. That's why I didn't really have a say any of in any of this, but I was recording it. So his thing was just trying to get the right emotion from a take. Even though he's screaming, there's a lot of emotion coming out of it and sometimes when you double something you'll lose the emotion. Really.

Speaker 2 (01:19:15):

It's kind of the same thing as when you quad guitars, you'll lose tightness.

Speaker 3 (01:19:20):

Exactly. And it doesn't mean you don't double things. That means you just got to be selective, you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (01:19:26):

Speaking of shy Ude, next question is from Jack Hartley, which is what was your approach to editing and mixing reach beyond the Sun by shy ude? That record sounds really organic yet still modern, punchy, and tight.

Speaker 3 (01:19:42):

I mean, a lot of it came down to the recording though too, so I'll start with the drums. I remember first of all, the drummer is incredible. His name's Matt Covey. I remember we had a lot of fun with the drum tones. We changed the snare drum for a lot of the song. So there's six different snares and I changed it depending on the tempo of the song. If it was super fast, I would crank the snare up and make sure there's no ring. If it was kind of slow, I would make sure that the snare was super wet and ringy when it came down to mixing, God, I don't know, man, I just wanted the drums to slam. I wanted the vocals to be super upfront and in your face, and it's all about the guitar riffs, so you kind got to make sure your tones. And then when it comes down to editing, I dunno, I think I gritted the shit out of a lot of the stuff, but some of the stuff I left a little loose, it kind of just depended. But I would say 80% of the guitars are gritted, but it's very raw. Everything on that record is very raw sounding. So we tried to but raw in a tonal way, not like a performance way, if that makes sense.

Speaker 2 (01:20:53):

So grided yet natural, that sounds crazy and I want to hear it,

Speaker 3 (01:20:59):

But natural. I mean, I think that I tend to, a lot of my records, most of it will end up on the grid and being nudged, but I think it more has to do with the dynamics of the performance or the tone that makes it feel like it's natural.

Speaker 2 (01:21:23):

I also will put a lot of my records on the grid, and what I'll do is I'll change the grid to speed up and slow down in places where I think it should. So I've gone to the point of speeding up fills or slowing down fills. If it's say that you got a fast part and you end it with triplet fill going into a slow part, whatever, slow down the tempo and have lots of different, lots of tempo changes in the song, but have everything on grid still so that it's perfectly in time, but the tempo ebbs and flows the way that music wants to ebb and flow.

Speaker 3 (01:22:06):

Sure. Yeah. The Shy Lu record is, I mean, there's so many tempo changes on that record. It's not even funny. You should give it a listen. I hope that answer was good.

Speaker 2 (01:22:17):

The answer is good, and I think that a lot of people when they ask something like that, how did you make it sound punchy and tight? It's like, well, I mean, first of all, the music has to be written in a way to where it can be punchy and tight, right? So

Speaker 3 (01:22:33):

Like

Speaker 2 (01:22:33):

You said, it goes back to the recording and you recorded it in a way that lends itself to that. But if they didn't write music that was meant to sound that way, it wouldn't sound like that. So it kind of goes back to the basics, the arrangement, the recording, and then, I mean, you answered it, you said you edited to the grid the parts that needed to be super tight and super punchy, and then you left the other parts alone that needed to have a more quote, organicy kind of feel. And then you said that the tones are where most of the organic element comes from, not so much the timing.

Speaker 3 (01:23:17):

Yeah, I would say the tones and the performance for sure. You can move shit around and throw it on the grid, but it's still going to be the same part. You know what I mean? And you do got to edit it the right way and make sure that it just feels good. Really.

Speaker 2 (01:23:33):

I think that that's one of the main things that people need to understand about editing drums is why you don't just let some jackass do it, is you need to have, because anybody, not anybody, but let's just say that just learning how to put things on a grid robotically is a lower level skill than learning how to edit drums musically. So editing drums musically involves putting things on the grid, but you have to have the musical judgment to be able to know when things are going to be a hundred percent, when they're going to be 90%, when the snares got to be a little behind the beat, when to leave it alone. All these things you got to know. You got to feel these things and hear them, and so it's much harder. So here's the last question. Good question. Thanks. Well, it wasn't my question, but here's the last question. This is from our drum tech and Matt Brown, who is Drum genius and one of the best engineers I've ever met, and he asked, what's it like being named after both members of the greatest band ever to exist? Tenacious?

Speaker 3 (01:24:41):

Oh God.

Speaker 2 (01:24:45):

I'm sure you've heard that before. I get that a lot. I'm sure you do.

Speaker 4 (01:24:49):

The only answer to that is it's fucking awesome. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:24:53):

Like he said, it is awesome. What else is there to say? What's funny is in my background on my desktop is Jack Black staring me in the face.

Speaker 2 (01:25:04):

Amazing. Yeah. Well, I'm sure that you've been hearing that for a while.

Speaker 3 (01:25:08):

Yeah, have for sure.

Speaker 2 (01:25:10):

Well, Kyle, thank you for coming on. Thank you. It's been great talking to you. Normally our podcasts are only an hour long, and I bet that we could have talked for another two hours, so

Speaker 3 (01:25:22):

For sure.

Speaker 2 (01:25:23):

It's been awesome and I'm very, very much looking forward to the q and a and doing the whole nail the mix thing hanging out in Orlando. And Me too.

Speaker 3 (01:25:31):

It's

Speaker 4 (01:25:32):

Going to be sick.

Speaker 3 (01:25:33):

Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. And if anyone has any questions, just reach out to me on that form. Cool. The Unstoppable

Speaker 1 (01:25:40):

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