KELLEN MCGREGOR: Mixing Memphis May Fire, avoiding creative burnout, and capturing live energy in a mix

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast. And now your host, Eyal Levi. Welcome to the URM Podcast. Thank you so much for being here. It's crazy to think that we are now on our seventh year. Don't ask me how that all just flew by, but it did. Man. Time moves fast, and it's only because of you, the listeners, if you'd like us to stick around another seven years and there's a few simple things you can do that would really, really help us out, I would endlessly appreciate if you would, number one, share our episodes with your friends. Number two, post our episodes on your Facebook and Instagram, and tag me at al Levi URM audio and at URM Academy, and of course our guest. And number three, leave us reviews and five star reviews wherever you can. We especially love iTunes reviews. Once again, thank you for all the years and years of loyalty.

(00:01:01):

I just want you to know that we will never charge you for this podcast, and I will always work as hard as possible to improve the episodes in every single way. All we ask in return is a share a post and tag us. Oh, and one last thing. Do you have a question you would like me to answer on an episode? I don't mean for a guest. I mean for me, it can be about anything. Email it to [email protected]. That's EYAL at M dot A-C-D-E-M-Y. There's no.com on that. It's exactly the way I spelled it. And use the subject line. Answer me Eyal. Alright, let's get on with it. Hello everybody. Welcome to the URM Podcast. My guest today is Kellen McGregor, who's a guitar player, songwriter, producer, and mix engineer out of the national area. Best known verse work playing guitar for the band.

(00:01:53):

None other than Memphis may fire outside of the obvious work he does with Memphis May Fire. Kellen has also worked with lots of artists in the studio from established acts to up and comers artists such as Random Hero, the protest, Zana, seventh Day Slumber, relent, and tons more. Also, Kalin is on Nail the Mix this month, August, 2022 with his band. Memphis May Fire and doing the song Blood and Water. And so if you want in on that nail the mix, just go to nail the mix.com/signup for the raw multitracks and the live mixing session along with your chance to win some sick prizes. Anyways, I will quit this intro. Take it over to Kellen. Let's do this thing. Kellen McGregor. Welcome to the URM Podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:02:41):

Howdy. Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1 (00:02:42):

It's a pleasure, man. I've been hearing more and more about your work. First I heard about it from Joey Sturgis because your singer had hit him up and told him that you were doing the new stuff.

Speaker 2 (00:02:55):

Oh yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:02:56):

And Joey was like, you should check it out. It sounds really good. And I did, and I thought it sounded really good. And then the idea just kind of died there. The idea there's 8 million things going on.

Speaker 2 (00:03:08):

Oh yeah, yeah. I feel like you're one of the busiest guys on the planet.

Speaker 1 (00:03:11):

There's busier, but I'm the busiest guy sitting in this seat.

Speaker 2 (00:03:16):

It's Al and then Elon Musk. Y'all are real close right next to each other,

Speaker 1 (00:03:21):

Man. I cannot imagine what he has to deal with. But yeah, it died, but I kept at the back of my mind. And then when more and more people were requesting you actually Oh,

Speaker 3 (00:03:33):

Cool. Every

Speaker 1 (00:03:34):

Once in a while I'll put out a post that's like, who would you like to see on Nail the mix? Who would you like to see on the podcast? Your name comes up more and more. And I thought that was cool. I thought that was cool. So I pay attention to those things, to who has personally recommended someone to me is that congruent with what I'm seeing in the community with what people are talking about. And so I've seen your name mentioned more and more and more, which makes me happy. So I know you as a musician in a band, in a band that's been around for a while, but then I start hearing of you as a producer mixer. And to be honest, I try to not be skeptical, but it's hard not to be because every single band has a dude in it now or a lady who does that. Right.

(00:04:21):

So how do you know who's actually good and who's actually not? But then when you hear it more and more and more, and in the URM community, you hear it from people that you respect. It's like maybe there is something here. And then you actually hear the work and you're like, yeah, dude's legit. And so then that brings up the question for me is being a producer mixer, was that always where you wanted to go with things or is that something that happened For a lot of us out of necessity, for instance, for me becoming a producer mixer was out of necessity because back in the early two thousands, there were no people where I could go to get my extreme metal band recorded. There just weren't. I had to learn how to do it because there was nothing. So I just did it. I never loved

Speaker 2 (00:05:09):

It. So you had to become the guy?

Speaker 1 (00:05:11):

I had to become the guy, but not out of passion for recording. It was out of passion for my band and necessity. So I'm wondering what did it mean for you, or what does it mean for you?

Speaker 2 (00:05:22):

It's probably a little, yeah, I think I probably felt a little bit of that when we first started out. Nobody else was really picking up that mantle or really into it, so I think I just bounced from, I started in acid, remember that? Old, old?

Speaker 1 (00:05:39):

Oh yes,

Speaker 2 (00:05:39):

Yes. I started that and went to Magics and then got to Logic and then the pro Tools. And did

Speaker 1 (00:05:44):

You ever use making waves?

Speaker 2 (00:05:45):

I think I did very briefly, yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:05:47):

Oh, finally Someone that also used making waves.

Speaker 2 (00:05:51):

For some reason, I always went back to acid though, just because I was just so boring and plain. But I think it was a combo of me having fun with it and then also having to do it because no one else in my band would do it. And just playing in local bands back in the day, nobody else did any of that, so I just kind of fell into it. And then as we started touring more, it was kind of hard. I always wanted to do more of that, do more writing sessions or production sessions with bands or learn more about mixing and thank goodness for You guys have been a massive influence on

Speaker 1 (00:06:26):

We're here to help.

Speaker 2 (00:06:28):

I always found that it was really tough trying to balance, I guess, being focused on writing for my band and touring and stuff like that, and then having also maintaining personal relationships. And then my wife and I started dating back in 2014, and I was never very good at finding a proper balance for that. And we'd be home for two months and I'd want to spend a month of that working on branching out and making a career, but I just always sucked at that so bad, trying to schedule that stuff, and it was never enough time because when I get into something, I just want to do that all the time. So when we're in album mode, all I do is write. Yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:07:06):

You're the obsessive type,

Speaker 2 (00:07:08):

And so I

Speaker 1 (00:07:09):

Get it.

Speaker 2 (00:07:10):

It was hard, man. Moving up here helped a lot, and then we had longer breaks between touring, so that allowed me to kind of explore it more, and I just really fell in love with it. I love when bands come in here and work with me and we write a song from scratch, and then it's always one of those things where I try and push them in a direction that maybe they're uncomfortable with at first, and then by the time they leave and fly back home, they're like, okay, this song is sick. Or somebody sends me a mix to do and maybe they're unsure. I'm still pretty new to the game, but then I sent it back to them. They're like, oh my God, this was my least favorite song, but now it's my favorite song, and that's what's what I do it for.

Speaker 1 (00:07:48):

That is a great feeling. I want to talk to you a little bit about the obsession thing.

Speaker 2 (00:07:52):

Sure.

Speaker 1 (00:07:53):

I just want to hear about how you deal with it. I have a hard time with it. I've got a lot going on. It stresses me out sometimes. I've got a lot going on. So we talk about URM, there's the business side of URM. There's also the product side of URM, which is stuff like what we're doing,

(00:08:11):

The podcast now, the mix, how it's done, courses and putting all those together. Those are two different things. There's the community side of it, then you have Riff Hard, which is exactly the same stuff. Then I have to keep up with my playing. Then I am writing songs for the band, getting ready to put that together. And the thing is about all that. Oh, and I have a girlfriend too, and it's important. And so between all that, the thing is my tendency is try is to obsess. So if I'm working on one thing, say I'm writing a guitar solo, that is the thing I want to be working on all fucking day. Forget everything else, just sit there and work on that goddamn thing till that thing is the best thing ever. Or if I'm doing a podcast, I'm not thinking about anything else in the world besides, yeah, me and you talking right now. So with podcasts, it's a little easier because you have an end time, but how do you balance it when you do have so many different things going on at the same time? You do? I'm just curious how you do it. I like to learn from people who balance multiple things, and again, you have a real life relationship. That's important.

Speaker 2 (00:09:26):

Trying to balance everything and be a good husband. It's hard. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:09:30):

Yeah. It's not like it's some hermit or something. You got a wife that's important. Very important. Very important. Yeah. So how do you do this? What's your method, I guess?

Speaker 2 (00:09:43):

I mean, I don't think I admitted that I do it well. I think let's just get that out of the way. Well, that's

Speaker 1 (00:09:47):

Okay, but you do it.

Speaker 2 (00:09:48):

I try. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:09:50):

I think that's a big part of it.

Speaker 2 (00:09:51):

I try as best as I can to time block stuff. Even though that becomes super difficult, especially if I'll try and time block. I know, okay, Monday and Friday I'm doing these two things, but maybe the second thing on Friday depends on a band sending me all the correct files on time, and then I get all the files and I'm like, Hey, yo, you need to redo vocals because I mean, I can mix this, but you don't want to put it out like it is, and so then that just totally screws up next week. Then you're waiting on that, and then in the meantime, I have rehearsals or I'm trying to write for my own band or write for somebody else's band. It's hard, man. I'm not going to lie. There's nothing, I mean, you'd know more than anybody, especially I just want to disappear in whatever I'm working on. So if I'm on, I don't bouncing back and forth, especially between mixing and production. So if I have a mixing day, I only want to do mixing. If I have a production day, I only want to do production for those two or three bands that I've scheduled because I don't have that kind of brain that can just,

Speaker 1 (00:10:57):

Yeah, it's a head space.

Speaker 2 (00:10:59):

Yeah, I'm going to play guitar for two hours and then I'm going to do some production, then mixing, and then I'm going to go to rehearsal. I can't do that,

Speaker 1 (00:11:04):

Dude. I can't do that shit. I can't do that shit. I wish I could.

Speaker 2 (00:11:08):

It's too hard. Yeah. I'm always envious of people that can do that. The singer of my band, Matt, he can do that. He can wake up, knock out a bunch of business emails, hop on some calls, go to rehearsal, come back home and put some stakes on the grill, go do this other thing, and then it's

Speaker 1 (00:11:27):

Man, my girlfriend can do that. I've been trying to learn, she paints guitars for a really big guitar company, like custom stuff, but she also has a job. She goes to another career, and so I've been watching how she does it. She wakes up at five 30 or something and then paints for an hour and a half and then goes to work and then comes back and then paints some more. And even if she only gets 30 minutes of painting done when she gets back, that's enough. But just doing that consistently, her output is really high, and I've been trying to think about songwriting for these new doth songs like that. Okay. What have I only spent? Take one section of one song. Okay. We have verse one on a song, and I don't like the way that it transitions between the first half and the second half of the verse. So why don't I just, I only have 30 minutes to work on it. Why don't I focus on this one detail? That's it. Yeah, we're not working on anything else. Just this one transition fix the way the first half of the verse transitions into the second half.

Speaker 2 (00:12:32):

Yeah, I think that's smart.

Speaker 1 (00:12:33):

It works, but it's so hard to get into that kind of mental state because my natural thing is wake up and fucking fix everything and just keep going like a fucking battering ramp basically.

Speaker 2 (00:12:44):

Yeah. I've had to experiment, I guess with noticing when I feel sharpest at certain things throughout the day. So I've noticed if I get up early from seven to noon, I feel like my ears are sharpest. They're just kind of fresh. So I tend to do mixing stuff until about noon and then take a lunch break, and then I feel more creative in the afternoon. I feel faster and more creative with that stuff, and so I tend to try and balance it that way. Let's knock out as much mixing as we can do in the morning. Take a break, eat some food, watch some YouTube videos or watch you guys or something like that. Just disengage. Disengage, totally disengage and just let my brain go somewhere else. So then when I come back in, it's excited. And then I work on production generally in the afternoon, or if I'm programming lighting or something like that, work on something more on the creative aspect of it in the afternoon, and that tends to work better for me. I know my brain once five o'clock rolls around, it's like, yo, I'm fried. Let's go do something else.

Speaker 1 (00:13:46):

Yeah, man, I've noticed that too. There's an expiration.

Speaker 2 (00:13:51):

Yeah. Oh yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:13:51):

Yeah. It's right around. If I start around 6:00 AM which I do most days, it's somewhere between five and seven. There's a range.

Speaker 2 (00:14:00):

Fog starts rolling in. Yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:14:02):

Yeah. Somewhere around 5, 6, 7, the fog starts rolling in. That's a good way to put it. Now there are things I can do to combat it, but they're a bad idea.

Speaker 2 (00:14:13):

Caffeine,

Speaker 1 (00:14:13):

Like drink a red Bull at 6:00 PM and hey, yeah, yeah, I'll get that. Hey, yeah, I know you showed me your Red Bull, but dude, it's 9:54 AM by you. I have my quad coffee here, but

Speaker 2 (00:14:26):

Oh, dude, I'll do the same thing. Sometimes you'll be in the middle of something and you'll look at your clock and you're like, okay, well it is six o'clock, but I'm right in the middle of this. And then you just go crack open something with caffeine in it, and then you work until eight or nine. And then sometimes it is good and efficient, or sometimes I notice I get done by pushing myself those extra couple hours. I'm like, I should have just gone to the gym or something.

Speaker 1 (00:14:52):

Let it go. But you never can't tell. That's the thing. You can't tell in advance how that's going to go. Well, here's my issue with doing that, and I do it, but why I try to do it less is by cracking open the caffeine at six. It's a risky game for me. I have had lifelong insomnia, and so for me, everything good in my life stems from a good sleep cycle. So as long as I'm getting to sleep and getting six to seven hours consistently, everything else is on a good footing. The moment that starts to get wonky, it's like you could just watch everything else start crumbling. So I have to be super strict about that, and so opening that Red Bull at 6:00 PM that's risky because still we are five hours or six hours away from bedtime, so technically we should be okay, but not always.

Speaker 2 (00:15:52):

Yeah, you may feel like, oh, I'm sleepy, but it's still going to interrupt your sleep rhythm by having it in your system. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:15:59):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:15:59):

I know all too well.

Speaker 1 (00:16:01):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:16:02):

And dude, my wife is kind of like you. I'm sure her brain is just always working, getting her to bed is trying to get a kid to go to bed. She's just always excited about something, but what about this TV show or what about this? And her brain is just always thinking so she can operate on four hours of sleep. I can't do that. I know that as I get older, I'm 37 now, I need a little bit more sleep with every year that I get older. It is what it is.

Speaker 1 (00:16:31):

I can do the four hours of sleep. Interesting. When I was younger, could operate on very little sleep. I could go 36 hours straight without sleep and just sleep for five hours. Power do it again. Yeah, just fucking savagery, pure savagery. Nowadays, if I do an all nighter, I get a migraine, I get a migraine. Not even an all nighter, I don't mean up partying. I mean, say I stay up till

Speaker 2 (00:17:00):

Four

Speaker 1 (00:17:01):

Working.

Speaker 2 (00:17:02):

I was going to say the same thing. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:17:03):

I have to wake up at three hours later, I get a fucking migraine so bad that I want to puke, and so I can't do that stuff anymore. Yeah, me neither. There's that, and then I've noticed that I can do better now with four hours, five hours of sleep, six hours, more like five hours, but if I go under five,

Speaker 2 (00:17:28):

It's just trash.

Speaker 1 (00:17:30):

The day just gets a lot worse. However, the big difference is I don't think I really need eight so I can get six and be perfectly fine. Whereas when I was younger, that wasn't the case. I needed eight or 10 to really feel good. Now I only need six, but the trade off is if I go under five, we're asking for trouble, and if I go under three, it's going to be a migraine.

Speaker 2 (00:17:56):

It's game over. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:17:57):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:17:59):

I think it's real similar for me, if I don't even set an alarm, I'll wake up exactly at eight hours regardless of what time I go to bed. Wow. My body just impressive, knows exactly when eight hours is. It's really bizarre. But yeah, I have to have at least six because anything other than that, I just feel like trash and I am slow at everything that I do, and I like to just go, go, go, go. I like to work super fast and it just, do

Speaker 1 (00:18:23):

You get moody too?

Speaker 2 (00:18:24):

I just get frustrated more easily, I think. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:18:27):

Frustrated. Got it.

Speaker 2 (00:18:28):

Dude, this whole conversation is a same conversation I've had with my wife and I a thousand times. Like, babe, we need more sleep. And we know we do because when we get more sleep, we feel like a thousand times better, and we do a thousand times better at both of our jobs, and she works for a legal firm, so she has to be sharp all the time. It's just the scary truth of getting older.

Speaker 1 (00:18:52):

Well, I'll send you the invoice for the couples therapy session after.

Speaker 2 (00:18:56):

Yes. Yeah, please

Speaker 1 (00:18:57):

Do.

Speaker 2 (00:18:58):

Yeah, it is what it is, man. I mean, I think when I turned about turned 30, that's when I started noticing that I couldn't pull all-nighters anymore. I didn't rebound

Speaker 1 (00:19:07):

As

Speaker 2 (00:19:07):

Quickly anymore. Touring became harder.

Speaker 1 (00:19:10):

That's the age.

Speaker 2 (00:19:11):

It was literally once I turned 30, I was like, something is different and I don't like it. I don't know what it is, but I don't like it,

Speaker 1 (00:19:18):

Man. My band used to joke. We joked about it before we were all 30. We used to joke about how that's like the cliff. Like when you start to see everyone that you used to tour with, just leave

Speaker 2 (00:19:30):

Touring.

Speaker 1 (00:19:31):

Yeah, just

Speaker 2 (00:19:31):

Peace out

Speaker 1 (00:19:32):

Just because, yeah, peace out just because 30 happened

Speaker 2 (00:19:35):

And

Speaker 1 (00:19:36):

I think there's a couple of things going on at the same time. Number one, it's that what you just said, the recovery time physically terrible. It's just not what it used to be. And the abuse that you take on the road, you take a lot of abuse, and I don't mean forget the lifestyle, the drugs and alcohol lifestyle. Not everybody does that, so let's pretend that doesn't exist. Sure. Just the lifestyle of being on the road, traveling, playing shows, moving stuff constantly, changing time zones, always being on the road, all that stuff that takes a toll on your body and your mind. It gets harder and harder to recover from it, I think as you get older. So I think that that's part of it. And then I also think that the other part is when something people turn 30, something happens in their brain. I have read studies, it changes. I've heard studies that the human brain is not fully developed until around 25, 26,

Speaker 3 (00:20:34):

And

Speaker 1 (00:20:34):

Some of the things that, some of the aspects of the brain that can calculate long-term consequences are some of the last ones to develop.

Speaker 3 (00:20:43):

Of course.

Speaker 1 (00:20:44):

So somewhere around 30, you're a fully formed adult, and then so something about the significance of being 30, you can finally understand the long-term ramifications of what you're doing. You're not recovering as well, and it's like, Hmm, do I want to be 50?

Speaker 2 (00:21:02):

Yes. Doing this.

Speaker 1 (00:21:02):

Exactly.

Speaker 2 (00:21:03):

Yeah. I mean that's why, what am I doing with my life? You got to prep. When you're getting around that age, you just got to start taking care of yourself because you know that 20 years down the road, it's going to catch up to you if you don't prepare for it

Speaker 1 (00:21:17):

Sooner.

Speaker 2 (00:21:17):

Yeah, yeah, you're right. Even just, I guess this is kind of related to it for me, I'm definitely a creature of habit. I like to have the same time blocks of everything every day, go to the gym at a certain time, make dinner at a certain time and a couple months back, I think I had texted you when our dog died, Yoda.

Speaker 1 (00:21:37):

I was very sorry about that, by the way. That sucks. Thank

Speaker 2 (00:21:39):

You, man. Yeah, he was my world and we don't have kids, so he was like our kid, our little stinky French kid. So after that happened, the only thing I could do was just bury myself in work. I didn't know how else to cope with it, so that's what I did. But because of that, I would just ignore the other aspects of taking care of myself to make sure that I could be the best me every day. So putting aside cooking and eating healthy meals, going to the gym not only to take care of your body, but to take care of your mind, give your mind a break where you don't have to think about anything. You just going and doing something kind of mindless that is also good for you. Really keeping up my friendships and stuff like that. And it took me a long time over a couple months to realize even if there are days where you're behind on stuff, you still got to put in the hours to take care of yourself doing the things that you don't realize or even making a huge impact, and that was a tough lesson for me to learn.

Speaker 1 (00:22:44):

It's like you have to prioritize your own maintenance in a way, like eating healthy, exercising, maintaining your social interactions and whatever life basics they are for you. I guess for a virtuoso guitarist who would be doing at least the 30 minutes

Speaker 2 (00:23:02):

On

Speaker 1 (00:23:02):

Guitar so that they don't fall behind, but whatever it is for you, but those basic basics just so that you as a human don't start to fall apart. That's just so important. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:23:13):

It's hard too, man. I mean, especially people like you and me. When you have obsessive traits already and you get in that mode and you just start like your horse with blinders on and you're just blocking out all the other things in life, you're like, oh, well, I'll just do that next week. Yeah, I'll take care of myself next week. And then four weeks go by and then it turns into 16 weeks, and then you're just like, why do I feel complete crap today? Like, oh, it's because I haven't done a single thing for the last couple months to take care of myself, and that's hard for people to learn. I mean, that's the same thing with being on the road. You have to do stuff when you're on the road to keep your mind sharp, keep your body healthy. Maybe that's going to bed not at 2:00 AM maybe that's not having that extra white claw like, Hey, let's go to bed

Speaker 1 (00:23:56):

Or

Speaker 2 (00:23:56):

Anything, or any white claws. It's tough to learn that as you get older because like you were saying earlier, when you're young, you don't even have to factor that in. You can just exist and you're just functioning at a hundred percent all the time. It's so easy.

Speaker 1 (00:24:11):

Yeah, it's

Speaker 2 (00:24:12):

So amazing. Yeah, I know. I wish I could go back to that.

Speaker 1 (00:24:15):

I totally did not appreciate it.

Speaker 2 (00:24:17):

No. Yeah. I mean, dude, every year that I get older, I look back at my early to mid twenties and how I could literally just do anything and wake up the next day and just be like, okay,

Speaker 1 (00:24:29):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:24:31):

I feel great.

Speaker 1 (00:24:31):

Yeah, totally.

Speaker 2 (00:24:32):

I don't need any liquid iv. I remember. I don't need anything. I feel great.

Speaker 1 (00:24:36):

I remember on some tours just like taking a tally of all the injuries I was sustaining, but as a joke, funny. I was carrying a cab in Baltimore in the winter, and I slipped on the ice and busted my knee and was bleeding everywhere. Put that on the list. All kinds of shit like that. Just like all the different things that involve just getting beat the fuck up day after day after day. Man, now Uhuh ain't happening. No, that would happen and then I'd be down for a little while. I might not be able to play the show the next day. Who knows?

Speaker 2 (00:25:15):

Anytime we're out on the road, and I'm sure you've experienced this, you always have friends in every city that come out and they always want to hang, let's party bro and blah, blah, blah, and definitely there's been a little bit of a learning curve to just learn how to tell people, no, I, I'm good, bro. I am not drinking tonight. I got a lot of things I got to do tomorrow, especially if when you're me in a band, when you're the guy that has to either do all the audio stuff or whatever, you have a major role in your group. You can't let everybody down. Everybody's depending on you, so you kind of have to prioritize that along with your health. So it's like, well, you know what? I am going to go to bed at midnight tonight because I know tomorrow's drive or the overnight drive is going to be bumpy and I could get eight hours, but realistically I'll probably get five, and it's a hard lesson to learn.

Speaker 1 (00:26:09):

It's no offense. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:26:10):

It's no offense. It's just like, Hey, not that I don't want to hang out with you, or we will just have to do it next time we roll through because I've got these important things coming up and I got to take care of my health.

Speaker 1 (00:26:19):

When friends of mine come through on tour, if we want to see each other, I always suggest we see each other early

Speaker 2 (00:26:24):

In the day. Yeah. Oh yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:26:25):

No offense to anybody, but

Speaker 2 (00:26:28):

I

Speaker 1 (00:26:28):

Probably don't want to go to the show. It's too loud and I don't like the environment

Speaker 2 (00:26:33):

Are shows too loud for you too now. That's how it is for me.

Speaker 1 (00:26:36):

Yeah. I need to be very selective. I'll go see Muse. I'm buying tickets or getting tickets, whatever it is. I'm going to go see Muse on this upcoming tour, but the way I see it is I have been to so many shows, as have you, like any of us who have done this, have been to a countless number of shows. Our hearing has been fucked with already

Speaker 2 (00:26:58):

A hundred percent. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:26:59):

It or not, our hearing has been fucked with, and so to me, going to a show now, is it worth it? Can I just go say hi?

Speaker 3 (00:27:07):

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:27:09):

Yeah. It has to be something like Muse where it's like one of my favorite bands ever in the history of bands. Then I'll go see that,

Speaker 3 (00:27:17):

But

Speaker 1 (00:27:17):

Even if I really like a band, I'm probably not going to go to the show. I may just go say hello just because I need to conserve what's left.

Speaker 2 (00:27:25):

Yeah. I have the same problem. We always have friends. We're all through town playing, and even if it's our homies, I'm like at nine o'clock on a Thursday. I don't know if it's as I get older, but I have a sensory overload kind of thing that I notice from time to time where if stuff is very, very loud, it's too much. I need earplugs or I need to put in AirPods. It's just too much information, especially if you go from we're getting old.

Speaker 3 (00:27:52):

If

Speaker 2 (00:27:52):

You go from mixing all day where you're listen very critically at low levels and then you go to a loud concert at 9:00 PM it's kind of like, whoa, that is ripping. I got maybe two songs in me.

Speaker 1 (00:28:05):

Yeah, no, but you know what, man, all this stuff that we're talking about, I think that this is the stuff that if someone wants longevity,

Speaker 3 (00:28:15):

These

Speaker 1 (00:28:15):

Are the, in addition to doing a really great job or your band keeping great songs coming and a great live show, or if you're a mixer, keep doing a great job. Those things, to me, those are the assumptions, right? Without those things, you're not even in the conversation. Exactly. So assuming that you're in the conversation because you still are putting out good songs, you're still a good band and your mixes are still good, your productions are still good, okay. That assumed it's this other stuff that makes you or breaks you. I think as you get older,

Speaker 2 (00:28:50):

You got to experiment a little bit with it because everybody's so different that it's worth trying different things to see how it affects your progress just as a human being. If going out to shows all the time makes you thrive and do better at your production job or mixing job or writing or whatever, then by all means do that and do more of it, but just be aware of how it's affecting you. For example, my wife is super extroverted, so she thrives in a big crowd of people. She's like this bright light. She's such an amazing person, but because she's so outward, it makes it hard for her sometimes to realize what is actually affecting the inside of her, and it isn't until the weekend rolls around and then she crashes on a Friday or a Saturday, and then it's like, oh, all these ways that I was pushing myself during the week and maybe not doing the best thing here and not getting enough sleep here or not taking care of my health or my mental health, it catches up on the weekend, and if you're not as aware of it, you got to put in more work to become aware of it.

Speaker 1 (00:29:54):

Definitely. Awareness is key.

(00:29:57):

Hey, everybody, if you're enjoying this podcast, then you should know that it's brought to you by URM Academy, URM Academy's mission is to create the next generation of audio professionals by giving them the inspiration and information to hone their craft and build a career doing what they love. You've probably heard me talk about Nail the Mix before, and if you're a member, you already know how amazing it is. The beginning of the month, nail the mix members, get the raw multi-tracks to a new song by artists like Lama, God Angels and Airwaves. Knock loose OPEC Shuga, bring me the Horizon. Gaira asking Alexandria Machine Head and Papa Roach among many, many others over 60 at this point. Then at the end of the month, the producer who mixed it comes on and does a live streaming walkthrough of exactly how they mix the song on the album and takes your questions live on air.

(00:30:49):

And these are guys like TLA Will Putney, Jens Borin, Dan Lancaster to I Mattson, Andrew Wade, and many, many more. You'll also get access to Mix Lab, which is our collection of dozens of bite-sized mixing tutorials that cover all the basics as well as Portfolio Builder, which is a library of pro quality multi-tracks cleared for use in your portfolio, so your career will never again be held back by the quality of your source material. For those of you who really want to step up their game, we have another membership tier called URM Enhance, which includes everything I already told you about, and access to our massive library of fast tracks, which are deep, super detailed courses on intermediate and advanced topics like game staging, mastering low end and so forth. It's over 500 hours of content and man, let me tell you, this stuff is just insanely detailed and enhanced. Members also get access to one-on-ones, which are basically office hour sessions with us and Mix Rescue, which is where we open up one of your mixes and fix it up and talk you through exactly what we're doing at every step. So if any of that sounds interesting to you, if you're ready to level up your mixing skills in your audio career, head over to U RM Academy to find out more. I think also as part of getting better at something like production or songwriting or your instrument

(00:32:14):

Or mixing or say even networking, like anything, self-awareness goes a really, really long way. The reason I say that is because so many people either think that they are the worst thing to have ever happened to music and have the worst imposter syndrome ever, or they think that they're the best thing to have ever happened to music, and they're also completely delusional. It's important to try to be accurate in how you see yourself. It'll help you gauge where you stand with other people because other people are the ones who are going to be yay or naying you.

Speaker 2 (00:32:48):

Exactly.

Speaker 1 (00:32:49):

In terms of work and also trying to have an accurate picture of where you're at also will help you understand what it is you need to get better at. So

Speaker 2 (00:32:59):

Context

Speaker 1 (00:33:00):

And accuracy, self-reflection, a really, really important group of things to try to adopt into your mental workflow. I think,

Speaker 2 (00:33:11):

Yeah, it can be a tough pill to swallow sometimes too when you have to,

Speaker 1 (00:33:14):

Well, yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:33:15):

Maybe slow down, take a step back and be like, okay, what is reality right now? What do I actually need to do? What is actually important? I always had that problem back in the day. I got really into cinematic stuff and video scoring, and I kind of got distracted by that because it's so interesting and it's so much fun, and I wanted to do all these things, and that was one of the things that I wanted to do, and then I kind of had to just be realistic and be like, okay, is that really where your life is going to go? Is that really where your career is going to go? Because you also have these other things that take up most of your time and are honestly probably a more viable option for you as a person

Speaker 1 (00:33:52):

At this point in time.

Speaker 2 (00:33:53):

Exactly. At this point in time. So I was just like, well, let's just slice that off. We don't need that. It's hard to do.

Speaker 1 (00:33:59):

It's hard to do, but it's important. It's important to realize you can do anything. It's one of those, you can do anything, but you can't do everything at the same time.

Speaker 2 (00:34:08):

Kind

Speaker 1 (00:34:08):

Of ideas. Exactly. You could get good at the scoring thing. You devoted yourself to

Speaker 2 (00:34:13):

It, for sure. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:34:15):

I'm sure you could develop a career in it too, but at the same time as everything else you've got going on, is that wise? Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:34:22):

What

Speaker 1 (00:34:23):

Else is going to suffer? It's kind of a tall order because something always has to suffer in order for something else to take center stage. So right now, at this point in time, what are your priorities?

Speaker 2 (00:34:34):

Well, for me, my band aside, the two things I really enjoy the most are mixing and just writing with bands and doing production for them. There's something very powerful about being in a room with a couple other people and somebody has a little spark of an idea, and then you grow it into this other thing, and then somebody interjects this other thing and you're writing lyrics as you're writing the music, and it just grows into this really, really cool thing that seven hours ago was literally nothing, and I dunno, part of me just lives for that. But then the flip side is the other part of my brain really enjoys bringing what other people have made to life because maybe they've only had the demo version of a song and then they send you the files to mix it, and then they get it back and they're like, oh my God, I didn't know. I didn't know. It could even be that. I don't know. There's something special about that, and that's my focus right now because that's what I get the most fulfillment out of.

Speaker 1 (00:35:31):

So taking music to the next level, whether it's yours or somebody else's, is there a hierarchy there? This is why me being a professional producer mixer for me, I could never put other people's music ahead of my own.

Speaker 2 (00:35:46):

I don't know if I would say that there's a hierarchy to it, but I recognize both as equally important. Got it. I know that it's kind of like a three tiered thing. It's like on one tier I have my marriage on another tier, I have my band and my role in that and the things that I have to do that are important, and the third tier is just doing the best I can to make whatever anyone's else, anyone else's music starts as grow it into something bigger, whether that's mixing it or doing production or writing, whatever it is we were talking about earlier, trying to balance all those things. I just have to put my mind in modes of things that I'm focusing on, and that tends to work the best for me.

Speaker 1 (00:36:34):

Three pillars I like that keeps it very simple.

Speaker 2 (00:36:39):

Anything else outside of those three pillars? If you have time for it, cool. If not, or if you want it to make something else that's outside of those three more important than you need to do a better job at scheduling so that you can find the time for that. I like going to the gym. I play hockey on the weekends. Those are not the most important things by far in my life, but if I want to have them included, I need to make sure that I'm doing the other three main three things really, really well. So that fitting those other ones in is easy.

Speaker 1 (00:37:11):

That makes a lot of sense. And I'm guessing that it took you a while to figure out how to do this efficiently.

Speaker 2 (00:37:17):

Yeah, I mean, I would say I was still figuring it out.

Speaker 1 (00:37:20):

Still figuring it out,

Speaker 2 (00:37:21):

But yeah, I think I've gotten in more of a mode now that it kind of tends to cruise, but yeah, it's a work in progress. I think we all are.

Speaker 1 (00:37:29):

Yeah, so let's talk about nail the mix. You are coming on this month, which I think is really fucking cool.

Speaker 2 (00:37:35):

I'm excited and terrified.

Speaker 1 (00:37:37):

Oh, there's nothing to be terrified about. Everybody says they're terrified,

Speaker 2 (00:37:40):

Really,

Speaker 1 (00:37:41):

Trust me, everybody does. And then we do it, and then they're like, there was nothing to be terrified about because it's not just you alone in the wilderness or in the ocean.

Speaker 2 (00:37:53):

Stranded.

Speaker 1 (00:37:54):

Stranded in a storm, and no contact with civilization. I'm going to be their hosting. My whole job is to help you do your job, and so if I feel like you haven't explained something enough, I'll just ask you more questions about it,

Speaker 2 (00:38:12):

And it's always super helpful.

Speaker 1 (00:38:13):

Yeah, it's my job, so it'll be totally fine. It's funny, everybody says that they're terrified of it at first, I think

Speaker 2 (00:38:20):

Because it's so cool when you know, get to do something that's really cool that you impress upon yourself like a certain standard, you know what I mean? Of, oh man, if I think this cool, everybody else thinks it's cool, so I got to make sure that I'm cool. You know what I mean? Make sure that I do a cool job. Yeah, exactly. Yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:38:39):

You, I think it's awesome because I also think that relatability wise, you are what a lot of our students are

Speaker 2 (00:38:49):

In

Speaker 1 (00:38:49):

That you're the dude in the band who had the got good enough to start making the records. There's one person in every band who operates the D, but I feel like that's kind of living the dream is to both have a production career that's moving along and being a well-known band. That's good stuff. And so I think that people see that and can relate to that because that right there is,

Speaker 2 (00:39:22):

Yeah, that's their path.

Speaker 1 (00:39:23):

A lot of people's dream that is what they want to see in their own lives,

Speaker 2 (00:39:27):

And it's totally doable. I mean, if I can do it, then anybody can do it. I guarantee that,

Speaker 1 (00:39:33):

I mean that you're being humble, but I do think that it's a very doable path if you focus on the right things

Speaker 2 (00:39:40):

And also be real with yourself and well, I think the two things that helped me the most in getting better at mixing and production was just being real and having to go like, okay, what am I actually doing good, and what am I sucking at right now? Because those things that I'm sucking at, let's work on those so that they're no longer issues. And also just having to know what you're doing when what you're putting out is not good, because I've definitely learned, I'm sure you said this to a thousand people before, you learn probably the most when you suck at stuff and you listen back a week later to a mix you did or a year later and you're like, oh,

Speaker 1 (00:40:23):

Yeah, something. There's one thing is sucking in isolation. You can learn from that, but there's nothing like sucking in front of people.

Speaker 2 (00:40:34):

Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:40:35):

There is nothing like it.

Speaker 2 (00:40:36):

It's the worst

Speaker 1 (00:40:37):

Or the best, depending on how you look at it

Speaker 2 (00:40:39):

And it haunts you. Yeah. Or the best, I mean, yeah, that's true. Then it's so terrifying and scary that you're just like, okay, how do I make sure this never happens again? Then let's just sit down and obsess over this thing that I'm not doing well, so that I can correct this, so then I don't have to put myself in that position ever again.

Speaker 1 (00:40:57):

Yeah, exactly. I think that, man, if you don't put yourself out there like that,

Speaker 3 (00:41:03):

You're

Speaker 1 (00:41:03):

Going to be guessing what those things are, right? You're going to be guessing about what your weaknesses really are or how people's perception of your work is going to be. It's all guess.

Speaker 2 (00:41:16):

It's

Speaker 1 (00:41:16):

All a guess. It's not until you get in the ring, basically.

Speaker 2 (00:41:20):

Yeah, I mean, that's

Speaker 1 (00:41:22):

That the truth.

Speaker 2 (00:41:25):

So for the latest Memphis record, I mean, that's exactly what that did. That was me jumping out into the ocean and just being like, all right, well, I guess I'm going to figure out how to swim back to shore, because when the pandemic happened, we had had all these plans to go write with a bunch of people and work with all these different people to just have a bunch of different flavors on the record. And then all that got put on hold, and even though we had had a grip of demos it, since it made everybody in the entire world pause, we're like, okay, well what can we do better? I know we have these songs, but can we do better songs? And so that's essentially what we did is just kind of went back to the drawing board and just rewrote a bunch of stuff and wrote a bunch of stuff from scratch.

(00:42:04):

Then. So when it got time to mix it, we had a list of people that we wanted to do test mixes, and so we sent the files out to the first person and we were super pumped and then got the mix back, and it was not really anywhere in the ballpark of what we were kind of picturing. And no fault of that guy at all. Admittedly, Memphis is a hard band to mix. Brian Hood told me that years and years ago when he did a remix of one of our old albums that included some new songs, and he was here, well, he's still here in Nashville, but he was still mixing at the time, and I remember going to his studio and him just being sitting down, mixing and kind of looking at me going, you know, guys are hard to mix, right? I'm like, I'm sorry, I don't know what to tell you. Yeah, we did the test mix and it didn't really pan out. We wanted to, and so Matt just was like, well, how about you mix it? And I had done for the last couple of years, smaller projects, like a lot of Christian rock stuff here in Nashville, and nothing quite as complex as our band, although we're not complex by any means compared to progressive metal and stuff like that. I think just complex in layering. We have lots and lots of layers.

Speaker 1 (00:43:16):

Yeah, there's stuff there for sure.

Speaker 2 (00:43:18):

So yeah, he said, why don't you do it? And I said, okay. And I went through probably four or five different iterations of different kinds of mixes until I landed on one that everybody liked and then tweaked it and tweaked it and made a bunch of different templates for it. And here we are a couple of years later.

Speaker 1 (00:43:36):

So the process of getting them to trust you, well, if they suggested it, that already is a big problem solved because getting a band to trust a band member with a mix

Speaker 2 (00:43:48):

Says something. Yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:43:49):

Yeah, it says something, but if the band member requests to mix it, that's different than if the band requests the member to mix it. So if Matt asks you to do it, that's already like, alright, so he might not be sure of the outcome, but he trusts in you enough to give it a shot

Speaker 2 (00:44:10):

That I'll do everything I can to make it sick. And dude, honestly, at full disclosure, I've requested to mix previous albums that I was unhappy with. I was not ready, a hundred percent was not ready. And that was also a tough pill to swallow, but it taught me a lot of what not to do. Hey,

Speaker 1 (00:44:29):

What did they say? You're not ready? Or did they let you and just you didn't win or what?

Speaker 2 (00:44:35):

Yeah, I would do a mix on a previous album. We would just kind of compare it to what we already had, and it was just kind of like a general consensus between us and label and management was just like, Hey, it's not bad, but it's just like we're already on this path and you're just not quite there yet, so why don't you just hold your horses a bit there? And I was a bit younger at the time, so I was like, what? I don't understand why. And I would just get frustrated. It's all

Speaker 1 (00:45:04):

Political.

Speaker 2 (00:45:04):

And then looking back, I'm like, that's probably the best thing they could have done for me. You know what I mean? In terms of helping me grow.

Speaker 1 (00:45:10):

Totally. Totally.

Speaker 2 (00:45:12):

Because it prepped me for this record. And

Speaker 1 (00:45:15):

If you hear those mixes that are like, yeah, I probably wasn't good enough yet. Did you hear them now? Yeah. Okay, good.

Speaker 2 (00:45:22):

Anything back then was not worthy yet? See,

Speaker 1 (00:45:24):

I think that this is awesome that we're talking about this because my parallel here to nail the mix to a lot of the students who do nail the mix. I want people who do nail the mix mix polls to pay attention to this. I've always told them that nail the mix, mix poll. First of all, it's not like real life. In real life you're probably going to be up against four people. If you're doing a test mix, it's going to be like you and then four other bad asses

Speaker 2 (00:45:53):

When you have the opinion of the label and the management and booking and everybody,

Speaker 1 (00:45:58):

All kinds of stuff. But with nail the mix, mix pull, there are no stakes. It's literally you can win some prizes or not, but you're up against 500 people. So that right there is not realistic. There's no real life test mix situation where you're going to be up against 500 people. So already your odds of winning are one in 500. Those are very, very, very low odds. And one thing I've noticed though is with a lot of people who are younger in their mixing career, I don't mean younger in age, I mean just earlier in their mixing career

(00:46:33):

When they don't make the polls or they don't win, sometimes, not everybody. Sometimes they'll be like, why the fuck didn't I win? My mix was great. I heard the other mixes. Mine was great. And then they'll go on these, they'll get ranty and really mad. It doesn't happen very often, but it's happened often enough for me to bring it up or mix some very passive aggressive posts about it or just ultimate butt hurt. And then what always happens is a year later or something, they get into a poll and they win or something. They kept on trying to get better or a year or two go by and they listen to those old mixes and they write an apology to the group, they write an apology to the group. They're like, oh my God, I can't believe that I was such an asshole about this. I really thought this was a great mix, and now I can totally tell why it was rejected. I couldn't hear it at the time. Thank you for telling me the truth and the tough love because then I went and I worked on what I needed to work on and here I am with having won it. But it's a similar sort of thing. If you don't get that feedback, how are you going to know

Speaker 2 (00:47:43):

You, won't you?

Speaker 1 (00:47:43):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:47:44):

Maybe when you're submitting it, maybe that's the best thing you've ever done at that time, but that doesn't mean the best thing you'll ever do. So it's hard to have that kind of comparison. There's no way you can know that it actually is good. And I mean with doing mixes, it's so subjective. I mean, it may actually be a sick mix, but maybe this is not what everybody else wanted to hear out of that. And that's a tough thing to figure out too,

Speaker 1 (00:48:07):

Especially in the test mix scenario, because if it's like five great mixers, they're generally all going to be doing sick mixes of some sort.

Speaker 2 (00:48:17):

Exactly. Yeah. I hate test mixes. I'll do 'em, but I hate it, dude. I don't think anybody likes it. Yeah, that's what Wade was saying the other day. He was like, oh, just gives me the heebie-jeebies.

Speaker 1 (00:48:30):

I don't think anybody likes it. It's such an uncomfortable thing.

Speaker 2 (00:48:33):

Well, and it's just because maybe I feel like too, with test mixes, you don't always get a ton of information on exactly what the band wants to hear, and I thrive on specificity when I do mixes for bands. I'm like, send me three or four references of other mixes that you like certain elements of and tell me what those elements are. You like the snare of this. You like the vocal of this, because

Speaker 4 (00:49:01):

If

Speaker 2 (00:49:01):

You don't tell me I'm just going to do it how I would do it, and then you might be bummed out because maybe the vocal wasn't bright enough or it's too bright or the snare is too loud or whatever it is. So yeah, it's so subjective. Doing mixes for people that if it's not what they want, you just have to be like, well, okay, well then tell me what it is that you want and let's do that.

Speaker 1 (00:49:21):

Yeah. It's a tough one. We have an episode called Musical Translator. I think it's the second URM podcast ever. It was me, Joey, and Joel. It was before we had guests on, and the whole conversation is about interpreting what people want and giving that to them, how that's like as a producer or a mixer, that really is your biggest job is knowing what it is, what they want, what they actually want, not necessarily what they say they want, but what they actually want you to be able to translate their words into music. Like they say they want this. You need to be able to translate it in your head into what does that actually mean musically, and then deliver that. You can do that. You're good.

Speaker 2 (00:50:02):

Yeah. You have to decipher it into instructions for you. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:50:06):

Yeah. Musical translator, it matters.

Speaker 2 (00:50:09):

It is hard, especially because when you receive a demo for something you're about to mix. You're like, oh, this would sound really cool if it was a really aggressive mix or with a lot of low end or whatever it is. But as you start, sometimes you kind of have to be like, well, are they going for more octane radio on this? Are they going for more this? Or they just want it to sound like the heaviest thing on the face of the earth, because that's going to greatly change how you approach that mix or that production, and you just have to be mindful of that. It's a tricky thing to practice, and I think the only way you can get good at it and practice it is by failing occasionally.

Speaker 1 (00:50:49):

The reason that in our speed mixing program, we tell people to finish version one fast and send it to the client is not because you're trying to cut corners or just skip steps. It's because you need to understand what they want. You don't really know what anyone wants until there's something to listen to. Words are cool, I want to be heavy, but that really doesn't mean anything, so

Speaker 2 (00:51:19):

It's not very descriptive. Yeah, no,

Speaker 1 (00:51:21):

Nothing is as descriptive as the way a mix sounds. So get them something that they can listen to and get it to them quickly so that you didn't spend a week

Speaker 2 (00:51:32):

Doing all these

Speaker 1 (00:51:33):

Things every last detail. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:51:34):

That you're just going to throw away.

Speaker 1 (00:51:35):

Exactly. Are we headed in the right direction, yes or no? If yes, we'll go down this path if no can scrap this completely, try a different direction. But we didn't spend an entire week trying to get to this. No.

Speaker 2 (00:51:49):

Yep. Yeah, because you could, if you would've just sent it right away, then you could probably get to the end game quite a bit faster.

Speaker 1 (00:51:55):

Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 2 (00:51:57):

Yeah, I get that. Yeah, I have trouble with that,

Speaker 1 (00:52:01):

Dude. All of this is easier said than done.

Speaker 2 (00:52:03):

Yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:52:04):

It's all easier said than done.

Speaker 2 (00:52:05):

Yeah. First drafts of mixes that I send to bands are generally, honestly really like a second draft.

Speaker 1 (00:52:12):

Well, yeah. I'll

Speaker 2 (00:52:13):

Usually do one, sit on it for a day, go back, make some changes, then send it, and that tends to be the best.

Speaker 1 (00:52:19):

Well, you got to be comfortable with it. You can't send them something that you're questioning.

Speaker 2 (00:52:23):

Exactly. Yeah. That makes sense though. I like that advice you were saying about just haul ass through it so you don't make too many tiny little changes that honestly aren't going to even, maybe not even be what they want or not even affect it all that much, and then you just waste all that time.

Speaker 1 (00:52:38):

Yeah, just define the direction. Give them a direction. Obviously sound good, but there's a level to where people will understand this isn't done, but it's slamming. It already sounds like people can pros who have been in the game and know how mixes come along. If you're like, Hey, this is 90% there. I just wanted to get your feedback. Am I going in the right direction? Should I finish this out or rethink it? Anybody who has been in the game will understand those instructions and say, yeah, this is great direction, or I kind of hate this, please start over.

Speaker 2 (00:53:13):

And I think most professional bands get that.

Speaker 1 (00:53:16):

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I think professional bands, if you're doing that with a professional band, I think you're going to be okay. Local bands maybe not as much. They might not understand that

Speaker 2 (00:53:27):

That was the hardest thing about doing the Memphis record was instead of you sending a mix off to a band and then receiving critical feedback, it's like you're sending it to yourself and you've already heard the song a thousand times and your band members

Speaker 1 (00:53:41):

And your band members

Speaker 2 (00:53:42):

Mixing your own band.

Speaker 1 (00:53:44):

Don't recommend it, dude. Oh, I don't either.

Speaker 2 (00:53:47):

It can be fun and rewarding, but it's also

Speaker 1 (00:53:49):

In the day before my band got signed, I was mixing my own stuff for the band, but there came a point where I was like, we need to graduate. We need a record company. We need to, this local existence is no longer appropriate for us or for my life, and we need to upgrade our sound. And so from that point forward, I started bringing in outside mixers to mix the stuff I recorded.

Speaker 2 (00:54:17):

It was a game changer, I'm sure.

Speaker 1 (00:54:17):

And it was, man, so awesome. Yeah. First of all, the first time you hear your music sound that good is an amazing thing.

Speaker 2 (00:54:26):

Oh yeah. You're just like, yes, yes. This is it. This is what I was hoping for. Yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:54:30):

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But also it keeps your relationship with your band

Speaker 2 (00:54:36):

Healthier. Yes.

Speaker 1 (00:54:38):

Healthier is better for your mental health. I am very much against mixing my own music. And look, you do it more power to you. I know lots of people who can do it, and if you have found a way to do it where it doesn't make you insane than,

Speaker 2 (00:54:55):

Oh yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:54:55):

Hats off. But wow. Oh,

Speaker 2 (00:54:57):

I mean, totally. At one point, I think it was over the Christmas break, I think going into 2021. Yeah. From 2020 to 20. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there was fully a moment where I just stopped what I was doing, and I can't do this. And I just walked into the kitchen and I just sat down and my wife was sitting in there and I was like, babe, I don't think I can do this. And she was like, whatcha you talking about? She's like, you're good at what you do. You can for sure do it. And I was like, ah, I think I'm just going to call Matt and tell him we need to find somebody else to mix it. I really don't believe that I can do this. And she was pepping me up, but also kind of being like, don't be a baby. You can do it a hundred percent.

(00:55:39):

You just got to keep going at it. And I was like, okay, you're right. And then the very next iteration of it was like, oh, that's what I was trying to do. Because trying to mix your own band and take what you're hearing in your head and putting it in there, it is so much easier when it's somebody else's stuff, at least just for me. Because if somebody is descriptive enough and specific enough, I can be like, okay, I get what you're saying. You want the kick from this album and you want this and you want the vocal from this album. Okay, I can recreate those or I can get you in that ballpark. But trying to translate what's in your own brain into your own mix is, man, that is a, oh geez, that is probably one of the hardest things I've ever done. But once it finally clicked, it was like, oh, okay. I just need to exaggerate everything essentially is what I had to do. And then that got me where I was going.

Speaker 1 (00:56:34):

That's why I'm going to Jens Boren.

Speaker 2 (00:56:36):

Yeah. He's the man. Yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:56:37):

He's the man, and I can't deal with that stuff. So you found that you just had to exaggerate the individual elements or what you were going for? What do you mean?

Speaker 2 (00:56:47):

For me personally, and I know this, and I don't do this necessarily on every mix that I do, but I guess just specifically for the Memphis record, I wanted it to sound and feel like it does at a live show. So when you go to a live show and the front of house guy is just ripping it and it's just slamming and it's so loud that even your own ears are kind of compressing it a little bit because it can't handle all the volume. I wanted to try and recreate that in a mix to where it is just so exaggerated and aggressive and just every element is over the top.

Speaker 1 (00:57:24):

Pummeling.

Speaker 2 (00:57:25):

Yeah. Pummeling. Yeah. And so it's probably the most compressed mix out there right now. But I did that on purpose because I wanted to exaggerate everything about it. And I think I achieved that. It just took a lot of problem solving because you go exaggerate this one thing and you're like, oh, well, now that's clashing with that. Oh shit. Okay, well now I got to go solve that. I'm like, okay, well, I'll just stick some soothe on that and fix that. It's just like soothe soothe everywhere.

Speaker 1 (00:57:55):

Oh, now I'm very curious. I'm very curious about your nail the mix now. Even more just how to get something sounding that pummeling without it becoming a noisy disaster. Quite the challenge actually.

Speaker 2 (00:58:09):

You'll see, dude. It is. Yeah, I know. I'm excited. Pretty wild. I definitely don't mix everything that way. I'm way more conservative with pretty much everybody else's music, unless they want that, and then I do it that way.

Speaker 1 (00:58:22):

No, but you know what, this is so important, what you're saying now, right now about what you wanted for it, what you just said about how you wanted it to sound like when you're at a show and it's so loud and powerful that even your ears are adding to the compression, and that just that power, that's a vision that is a very well-defined vision. And I think that artists and mixers and producers need to have well-defined visions and things fall apart, in my opinion, in the creation of art when somebody who has one of the main roles doesn't have a strong vision. And so whether it's you as a mixer are working with an artist who has no vision, and so then you had to create that vision for them,

Speaker 2 (00:59:08):

Well,

Speaker 1 (00:59:08):

You could do a good job or a bad job, but that's like a crapshoot or a mixer doesn't have a vision for how they want the record to sound, or a band doesn't have a vision for the overall feel of their song or things like that. That stuff without that, it's trying to get to a destination. But what destination are you trying to get to?

Speaker 2 (00:59:31):

Exactly.

Speaker 1 (00:59:32):

Just like are you just hitting random on your GPS and just going,

Speaker 2 (00:59:35):

Yeah, going somewhere.

Speaker 1 (00:59:38):

You got to have some North Star or some coordinate entered into that,

Speaker 2 (00:59:44):

An end point that you're going towards. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:59:46):

Yeah, exactly. So at least a point of view on what this is supposed to be. And if it turns out different, which sometimes it will,

Speaker 2 (00:59:54):

That's

Speaker 1 (00:59:54):

Okay too. But having this super defined vision, to me, it's everything.

Speaker 2 (00:59:59):

That's

Speaker 1 (01:00:00):

What makes it art.

Speaker 2 (01:00:01):

Well, and I think one thing that I've learned over the years is when you get a project, take a day or two to just jam the songs that they've sent and just think about what the vision is going to be, because I'm sure you're this way. A lot of songs could sound rad four different ways. You could have a more stripped down version. You could have a more radio friendly version, you could have a super compressed version, or you could have a really uncompressed version, and all four of 'em could sound awesome. And there's no right or wrong answer to that, but figuring out, okay, what's the one that the band is going to be the most stoked on or that I'm going to be the most stoked on? And let's just shoot for that. And if for some reason that falls short, then let's pick one of the other three. And at least that way,

Speaker 1 (01:00:46):

Totally. You could do any number of things, but which is the one that's in line with the vision of the people who's opinion matter. Exactly. Which is whoever the main people are in the band and the mixer and the producer.

Speaker 2 (01:01:00):

And don't be afraid to maybe do some things that you wouldn't normally do, because big props to, I feel like everybody has watched his YouTube videos and nail the mix stuff like a thousand times and just kind of emulates that kind of process, which is rad. It sounds awesome. But at the same time, I would definitely encourage people to like, yo, do some stuff that you wouldn't normally do, even if it is unquote wrong, because you might stumble upon something that you wouldn't have normally done. You're like, oh man, that sounds rad. Yeah, maybe I have to solve that problem with something else here, but it adds this new excitement or a new element to the way I was doing things that I wasn't doing before. And I wouldn't have discovered that if I hadn't just been like, okay, well, let's just try something different.

Speaker 1 (01:01:42):

Yeah. Well, that is how Nali discovered some of his tricks too, is by doing things that were not done yet.

Speaker 2 (01:01:47):

Exactly. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:01:50):

I totally, totally agree with you. Well, Len, I think it's a good place to end the episode. I'm very much looking forward to your nail the mix session in a couple of weeks. And if anyone wants to sign up for this nail the mix.com/sign up, you'll get the raw multitracks and the chance to enter into the mixed competition and watch Kellen mix it. For real.

Speaker 2 (01:02:14):

Yeah, it's going to be fun, man. I'm excited.

Speaker 1 (01:02:16):

Yeah, it is going to be fun.

Speaker 2 (01:02:18):

Still a little terrified. Oh dude.

Speaker 1 (01:02:21):

That's okay. Do you ever get nervous before a show?

Speaker 2 (01:02:24):

Not so much anymore,

Speaker 1 (01:02:25):

But back in the day when you did, how long did that last? Five, 10 minutes and then it's gone. Okay. That's what it'll be like.

Speaker 2 (01:02:31):

Yeah. As long as I got you. We're good. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:02:33):

More like two minutes. So yeah,

Speaker 2 (01:02:34):

Man, I'm pumped. Well, thank you very

Speaker 1 (01:02:36):

Much, man. It's been a pleasure.

Speaker 2 (01:02:38):

Absolutely. Same here.

Speaker 1 (01:02:38):

Alright, then another URM podcast episode in the bag. Please remember to share our episodes with your friends as well as post some of your Facebook and Instagram or any social media you use. Please tag me at Al Levi M audio at URM Academy, and of course, tag our guests as well. I mean, they really do appreciate it. In addition, do you have any questions for me about anything? Email them to [email protected]. That's EYA [email protected] DMY. And use the subject line, answer me a. All right, then. Till next time, happy mixing. You've been listening to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast. To ask us questions, make suggestions and interact, visit URM Academy and press the podcast link today.