JESSE ZURETTI: Landing Netflix gigs, playing the long game, and true imposter syndrome

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast, and now your host, Eyal Levi.

Speaker 2 (00:00:08):

Welcome to the URM podcast. Thank you so much for being here. It's crazy to think that we are now on our seventh year. Don't ask me how that all just flew by, but it did. Man, time moves fast and it's only because of you, the listeners, if you'd like us to stick around another seven years and there's a few simple things you can do that would really, really help us out, I would endlessly appreciate if you would, number one, share our episodes with your friends. Number two, post our episodes on your Facebook and Instagram and tag me at al Levi URM audio and at URM Academy and of course our guest. And number three, leave us reviews and five star reviews wherever you can. We especially love iTunes reviews. Once again, thank you for all the years and years of loyalty. I just want you to know that we will never charge you for this podcast, and I will always work as hard as possible to improve the episodes in every single way.

(00:01:10):

All we ask in return is a share a post and tag us. Oh, and one last thing. Do you have a question you would like me to answer on an episode? I don't mean for a guest. I mean for me, it can be about anything. Email it to [email protected]. That's EYAL at m dot A-C-D-E-M-Y. There's no.com on that. It's exactly the way I spelled it. And use the subject line. Answer me Eyal. Alright, let's get on with it. Hello everybody. Welcome to the URM podcast. My guest today is my old friend Jesse Zuretti, who has been on the podcast before, but we're welcoming him back. He's a musician, songwriter, composer, and sound design specialist, best known from work with Netflix Marvel, as well as the work done with his band Binary Code. And despite starting primarily in the world of making songs in a band environment, Jesse has been skyrocketing his career in various fields, including composition, commercials, trailers, post-production, and many, many other arenas. And I'll just say on a personal note, it's really, really cool to see one of my friends go from being in a unsigned band that's just struggling to really thriving. So let's get into this. Jesse Zuretti, welcome back to the URM Podcast.

Speaker 3 (00:02:28):

Thank you, man. I'm glad to be back. It's been mostly me listening to the podcast, so it's cool to be on it again after what has it been like a year or so? Maybe longer?

Speaker 2 (00:02:36):

No, it's been longer. We recorded your episode when we were both in LA at the same time, that time, right? Oh,

Speaker 3 (00:02:44):

Yeah, yeah. You

Speaker 2 (00:02:44):

Came into my Airbnb.

Speaker 3 (00:02:46):

Yes.

Speaker 2 (00:02:46):

That was several years ago.

Speaker 3 (00:02:48):

Besides

Speaker 2 (00:02:49):

The fact that we're friends, one of the reasons I wanted to bring you back on is because your career has really evolved since the last time. It just keeps on evolving, which is really, really cool. But I think that it's been really cool to watch, and I said this in the intro, but it's awesome to see one of my friends go from being in, I don't want to say local, but unsigned, like struggling band, which is a really cool band, but still in the struggle zone to thriving in a field that's actually very difficult to get into. So as someone who has pivoted as well, it's just cool to see somebody else pivot and then actually make it work. It's

Speaker 3 (00:03:32):

An interesting thing to do because there's so much psychology behind it that we don't realize at the time. It's like when you're in that band and you're putting your all into it and you're treating it, it's the most important thing in the world. You can't help but see outside of that. And when you pivot, it's almost kind of like your mind is trying to save you from ruining your life basically. Sometimes some people, the pandemic has been really challenging for a lot of people, and I think that's mostly because people create their entire identity off of being in the band that they put their all into.

Speaker 2 (00:04:07):

That's what I was about to say. The biggest challenge for me with the pivot was the identity issue I saw myself, which is, and now I'm playing again and doing the band again, but at the time, dropping all that was a really, really weird thing because I had 20 years of history where defining myself as the guitar player was, which just how I saw myself.

Speaker 3 (00:04:36):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:04:37):

It was strange approaching the world from, and it's still me, that's the thing, but it's a weird psychological game.

Speaker 3 (00:04:45):

Yeah, it kind of reminds me of the movie The Wrestler a little bit with Mickey Rourke. He's this pro wrestler and then he's doing VFW wrestling matches in Eastern Pennsylvania or something, and it's like, what a challenge. It presents to the ego and we don't realize it at the time, and that's probably what keeps us alive in those moments continuing, there's probably more people probably listening to this that are in the same position of they haven't really reached where they want to be with their endeavors with music and their ego is what's keeping them in the game. And for some people that's what ultimately makes somebody successful is that dogged mentality of continuing to do something even though they're not getting somewhere yet. The determination gets people in a lot of places, but then sometimes some things are against your will, like the pandemic, and when that happens, people don't have a choice but to be at home or to have to go back to getting a day job or something. And it's, it's very troubling and I see the effect that it's had on people and people we've lost. I think that probably played a role in that and it's really sad, but it kind of proves the power of pivoting. I think giving people, even the subconscious idea that they can pivot actually helps.

Speaker 2 (00:06:03):

Yeah. It's an interesting question that you just presented because at what point is it delusion and at what point is it just knowing that you have something to offer and the world just hasn't lined up for it yet? It's really weird because we all know people where no one is going to say it, but everyone's thinking it where it's like, oh man, just give it up seriously

Speaker 3 (00:06:28):

Or take a break

Speaker 2 (00:06:29):

Or take a break. You're being delusional. And then on the other hand, when we hear about the 15 year long overnight success, well, that 15 year long overnight success, that is such a common cliche, those 15 years leading up to the overnight success is someone who didn't quit. It's real tough because in some ways it's just a gamble. You have to gamble on yourself and other people have to gamble on you, and you're either going to be right or you're going to be wrong, and there's no way to know if you're going to be right without taking the gamble. So it's a really, really tough thing. But that aside, I completely agree with you that the pandemic really fucked with people's heads in music because their egos, and I don't mean this in a derogatory way, like calling people egomaniacs, I don't mean that at all. I'm just saying their egos and their identities prevented them from pivoting because what they couldn't shake what they saw themselves as, and that proved to be very psychologically disastrous for many of my friends. Now, it's interesting that many other friends of mine, it didn't do that. They pivoted immediately or they had already started their pivot before the pandemic and everybody lost people during the pandemic. Everybody was affected badly, but these people who were able to pivot came out a little less.

Speaker 3 (00:08:02):

I think we saw a lot of musicians turn into entrepreneurs during the pandemic too. People started thinking like, man, I got to have multiple spokes to my money wheel. I'm a really good drum producer, so let me make a sample library. Oh, I'm a really good guitar impulse capture producer. Let me put something out. Or even just coming up with different brands that are outside of music, people who were thinking outside the box through that they can still maintain their passion through music. Just they had to realize that, man, this music industry is not easy to be a part of in the first place. This is making it harder. I need to be prepared for the worst case scenario, part two, whatever that may be down the road. So it's been really interesting to see people take that opportunity and then sadly, we saw people leave bands and some bands can't survive some of these members leaving.

(00:08:54):

It's also think about the psychology of being in a band with somebody who decides to pivot too. Then you really realize the value of some of the people that are in your band that you didn't realize at the time too. So it's just a really interesting world. Socially, it's an experiment and yeah, pivoting is great, and it's honestly, for me, it was so unexpected for me to pivot into the career that I have with composing, but I'm really happy that I've had the opportunity to stay connected with the music world by taking what I've experienced and learned and fashioned into a spike in the composing world and then kind of bring it back into the world of working with bands in a different capacity than I was used to before.

Speaker 2 (00:09:35):

You started your pivot before the pandemic, though?

Speaker 3 (00:09:38):

I did. Yeah. My pivot started in about 2018, but I kind of felt like I abandoned the music world a little bit in a lot of ways. Still relevant to music, of course, but yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:09:49):

I mean, you had to. So that's one thing that I think needs to be understood is one of the things that you might need to accept when you pivot is that you might need to leave some things in the past, at least for a little while. I left a guitar in the past for quite a while. I did think I was going to come back to it, but still in the big picture. I put it aside for a little while to get these other things started, and there's no way that I could have really gotten these other things off the ground if I was in music mode. I just couldn't. I had to put my all into these things. Now they're established and they still take a shit ton of work, but at least I'm not in creating something out of nothing phase with them so I can bring music back, but I don't think that other people are going to have to quit for seven years or something. I do think that it is kind of important to come to terms with the fact that you may need to say no to some things, at least for a little while.

Speaker 3 (00:10:48):

I agree with that. You only have so much kind of time, money, so to speak, to spend on your efforts. You get a budget basically of your internal power and resources, and when you're doing what you were doing before with producing bands, it's so absorbing, not to mention the fact that your ears are taking a physical beating, your mind is getting worn out. So how at the end of the day, do you have any power or momentum to continue doing something for yourself personally at the end of that? That's exhausting. So it makes total sense when you take a break from that and then create probably one of the most important things to happen for the underground metal world, for the foreseeable future, this educational resource that's basically shaping the future of music in a lot of ways, and it's how could you have done that if you're also dealing with, A lot of people don't realize being in a band on a label doesn't necessarily mean you're going to deal with more professionalism. Sometimes it actually kind of goes the opposite direction. Oh man, yeah, you were dealing with bands on labels, but that's more drama sometimes because then you have somebody else giving a loan to a band, essentially, and then there's all these different people who are up your ass about getting something done or dealing with the people and they don't understand the psychology of what's going on in the studio, and then you're supposed to create the URM at the same time. It's not even on anybody's radar.

Speaker 2 (00:12:13):

Not possible. And that's why I've had actually several producer friends think that they were going to start something like it. They see what we do and they think it's easy or they could just do it, and it's like, I mean, you could, but you're willing to quit production and they never are. And then they realized they should just work with us. It's not that these people aren't capable, they're capable, they're all smart, they're all brilliant. The ones I'm thinking of are all brilliant people, but do they want to quit producing bands? No, they don't. I did. I wanted to quit. So that's the big difference is I hated producing bands and hated it more and more and more. As time went on, it got to the point where I just couldn't do it anymore. And so this was perfect. I feel like you were getting to a equal kind of point with pursuing your band, even though you guys had just finished really quite a monumental record and stuff. I feel like you were getting to the same point with your band to where you were just tired of that and needing something else.

Speaker 3 (00:13:18):

The record that we put on in 2020 when the pandemic hit and when it really made everybody stay at home basically in May of 2020, we finished recording that at the end of 2017. We had our eggs in that basket big time, and we have record labels listening to it and thinking about it. And I think that I've waited in the past before for record labels to make a decision, and it's like years drag on, and then it's like all this lost time when I could have just been making a new record. So when the opportunity was presented for me to start composing, I kind of took that as a sign in a lot of ways, and I put my back into it, and it was exhausting, man. I was like working 50 hours a week as a creative director for a musical instrument company, and then I was composing every single night basically at certain points of the week where I was composing after work for five to six hours, and then also thinking about, oh, my band has a show at St. Tus in Brooklyn and we have lighting and all this crazy stuff that we're doing, and I'm juggling all that, and then I couldn't do it anymore. I had to think of what's going to be paving my road a little bit better here. And even though the album had potential for being on a label or something like that, just in my experience,

Speaker 2 (00:14:38):

It totally did. That album, I think was the one that could have actually done that for sure,

Speaker 3 (00:14:45):

And I'm glad it didn't, honestly, I know that that's mildly something that I wanted at some point, but I'm so glad that it didn't happen. And in a lot of ways, I'm really grateful for the forced pivot in a lot of ways just because I still get to make music and I still get, I'm actually a part of an industry that I'm a little bit more passionate about in a lot of ways. I'm more passionate about film, just my grandfather was a child actor and a director, and I grew up in a household that's really passionate about writing. My grandmother, my grandfather's ex-wife, my grandmother who helped raise me as a kid was a TV producer and a show host, and that's where my family's passion comes from on that side of things. But then you have my dad's side that's really passionate about being in bands and loving music, and I was never passionate about the way that I felt about the industry side of music as much as I am about the film industry. It's so creative and it's just a different way of doing music. It's incredibly difficult, and I think I liked the challenge of that too.

Speaker 2 (00:15:45):

Yeah, it's important to recognize what it is that gets you going too, because what you're more passionate about is what you're more likely to put the most effort into.

Speaker 3 (00:15:57):

Yes, absolutely. I was thinking about this the other day, you and I have, I guess we'll talk about it at some point on this podcast, but just listening to some of the new stuff that you've been writing, I hear something so much bigger than the metal world within your music. I hear your dad, he must have, I actually want to know how much did your dad kind of influence your musical upbringing? Was he making you listen to all sorts of stuff or did you just latch onto it

Speaker 2 (00:16:22):

Consciously or?

Speaker 3 (00:16:23):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:16:24):

Not much, but I mean, that shit was always around. So basically it was either the Beatles or orchestral music at all times.

Speaker 3 (00:16:35):

That's two good things to have at all times,

Speaker 2 (00:16:38):

Right? As a kid, those are the best musical influences a kid could have is the Beatles and orchestral music.

Speaker 3 (00:16:46):

And also, you're not just hearing the Beatles like everybody else's parents put it on while they're doing the dishes or cleaning plates for their cabinet or something. Your dad hears music, unlike anybody else probably has experienced. It's so different.

Speaker 2 (00:17:01):

My parents appreciated the fuck out of him, so it was definitely not listening while doing the dishes. He never sat me down and strapped me to a chair, clockwork Orange style and downloaded Stravinsky into my head or anything. But kids absorb what they're exposed to, good or bad. That's just what kids do. So if you're in that environment growing up, all my dad's friends were musicians from the orchestra or guest soloists coming in, and they would often just come practice at our house during the day, and these are just the people that were around at all times. So I didn't know what I was being exposed to, but I was still being exposed to the best of the best nonstop. And so I think I probably have a grander concept for where you can take music just because of what I was exposed to.

Speaker 3 (00:17:57):

Yeah, it's like people who make their kids listen to a lot of really crazy music now when they're in the developmental stages. So as they get older, their brains are more challenged. I was wondering, do you think you might have a near eidetic photographic memory? I feel like you're a person who never forgets a single detail, so I wonder if when you were a kid, you were hearing stuff, it was getting imprinted into the future. You write music that is stuff that people have to sit down and study, film music, Danny Elman, Bernard Herman, Jerry Goldsmith, those type of people. I've heard stuff that you've been working on and no comparisons to these composers who are highly educated in their field and have spent their whole life dedicated to that. And somehow you can make that stuff just off the top of your head. I wonder if you have a photographic memory in some way.

Speaker 2 (00:18:47):

My dad does. So he would memorize scores while watching a baseball game on TV and talking on the phone at the same time, just by flipping the pages. And then it was so nuts that that's how he would memorize them. And then he would know everything that everyone was doing down to the measure number. So he'd do that at night and then the next day go to rehearsal and tell principal flute that they're off on Measure one 15 or something and without looking at the score, that's crazy. It's nuts. I don't have that. Yeah, it's obscene and I definitely don't have that, but maybe I have some variation of it or some underpowered version. It's definitely not like that. That's one of the most nuts things I've encountered so far musically.

Speaker 3 (00:19:40):

And people who are listening right now are probably thinking, it's like memorizing a kill switching gauge song from the early two thousands. This is music where there is so little repetition. So memorizing those things like your dad was doing is a beautiful mind level stuff because I mean, it's just endless math.

Speaker 2 (00:19:57):

He was memorizing the rite of Spring like that.

Speaker 3 (00:20:00):

Yeah, crazy.

Speaker 2 (00:20:01):

It's ridiculous. Or like 90 minute Long Mahler Symphony, just

Speaker 3 (00:20:05):

Crazy

Speaker 2 (00:20:06):

Watching tv. It's hard to understand how that's possible, but he told me once that while he's conducting, he's flipping the pages in his mind and he fucks up if he accidentally grabs three pages.

Speaker 3 (00:20:20):

Whoa.

Speaker 2 (00:20:20):

And flips to the wrong page. Crazy. It's really weird. Yeah, it's super crazy. Being around that will have an effect on you. It has to.

Speaker 3 (00:20:29):

Well, AISM is just as powerful as somebody with a full photographic memory. I mean, when you have in psychology, the more power you use for your brain, the harder it is to balance reality for a lot of people. So maybe having less of the full tilt kind of eidetic memory plays a role in why you're capable of also building all these different entrepreneurial businesses and growing things in such a, because the things that you're doing are very social endeavors as a business. It's not like you're just creating a product and then people just buy it, and then you don't have to deal with 'em ever. You have to engage with people. So maybe that balance actually lends itself to being more well-rounded to all these different endeavors that you've done, which is really crazy. But I mean, I'm basing this off of listening to the music that you've been writing for doth, which is, I don't think people have any idea what's coming around the corner with that stuff in terms of if they listen to doth in the past, they're going to get some of that, but it's elevated on a different level at this juncture.

Speaker 2 (00:21:29):

Well, I guess since we're talking about it, you've been working with us on the orchestral and some of the synth arrangements and helping out a lot with taking the music further. You know what I think is interesting, I'm actually curious about this. I know I've told you this or I've texted it, but I was ready to just drop the project actually back in January. I was going to do it, and then I was just like, eh, leave the past in the past and fuck it. I'm not into this for several reasons, but you were super persistent about doing an orchestral arrangement on one of the songs. It is. Not that I doubted your abilities or anything, but I was ready to can the whole idea. I was actually there.

Speaker 3 (00:22:14):

I could sense it too. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:22:15):

I was over it. I was causing me, again, I'm not going to talk about why, but it was causing me the same kinds of feelings that it was causing me back in the day. And I was like, I don't need this in my life. I have graduated from this bullshit and put it in the past, and then I humored you and sent you the track, and then two days later, you sent me that orchestral arrangement and I was like, all right, back in the game. So actually you doing that is the reason that it's actually moving forward. Like I said, I was out the door again, I was super oppressed. I knew that you were getting good, but I didn't realize, I guess again, it's not that I doubted you. You've been showing me stuff this whole time, but I guess I hadn't heard your orchestral arrangements like that yet. And I wasn't expecting it to be like that, so I was kind of blown away. And so it was Sean, and so we kept going, so thank you.

Speaker 3 (00:23:16):

Yeah, well, I'm glad because for me, as I was a fan of doth before we met back a decade ago, it's just cool to be a part of it. But yeah, it's really weird. The world that I'm in, there's so many clauses in effect for a lot of things. So I have NDAs and that I've had to fight through. And the toughest thing for me is like, man, I can't talk about this music that I worked on. I can't do this. I can't show people that I've worked on this thing that's really kind of like an extravagant arrangement of some sort and something that's really orchestral and showcases a different side of me musically because it's wrapped up in a bigger picture in a lot of ways and literally wrapped up in film more like a TV series or something that's coming out. So it kind of sucks because for me, it's like a waiting game and then by the time that thing comes out, I'll be moved on to the next thing.

(00:24:04):

And I'm riding off of a wave that crashed about two years ago. So it's like I knew in my mind I was like, man, I just want to work on this. Give me an opportunity. I'm not known for that in the music world, that's for certain. I'm not known for being able to do the classical style, but with the Marvel world, I'm very kind of entangled in the Danny Elfman and Han Zimmer sound. And then I'm also just, since a kid, I was obsessed with Bernard Herman music and I didn't even realize it. I didn't know who he was, which is really crazy. I wasn't thinking about who is the film composer in 1992 for a movie that I watched. But now I go back and I'm like, that's who the composer is for. This is amazing. And I realize that's an influence on me and I didn't even know it. So it was cool to be able to open that book for the doth stuff that we're working on. And man, I just can't wait for it all to come out. It's one of the more exciting things that I've been working on, and I've been doing some pretty cool stuff last year, but there's something really special about this doth stuff. It reminds me of how good metal can be when it's done by experts.

Speaker 2 (00:25:16):

Well, thank you. As we can't talk about who, but the lineup and the team are elite for this upcoming stuff. I've found the best of the best for everything, and I'm not taking chances. And so I didn't feel like working with you is taking a chance. But again, like you just said, a lot of what you do is in the shadows, and so I wasn't aware of your skill level with it. Now I am, but I'm glad you pushed for it. And I guess where I was going with this was the way that you were persistent with me, is that how you're persistent about getting work now in basically career wide? And do you attribute that level of persistence to how your career is going? Because you had brought it up several times over the course of months. You were not a punisher about it, but you didn't drop it either.

(00:26:09):

You kept, that wasn't the first time you asked. That was the fifth time I told you that I was into the idea of giving it a shot, but I was also non-committal. And again, I wasn't bullshitting you or anything or California knowing, but I also didn't, I wasn't aware of your skill level. I think it's important to understand if other people aren't aware of what you do to not get discouraged and help them understand what you do. So if you really have something valuable to bring. So again, what I'm wondering is that level of persistence that you had with me, is that kind of how you approach everything?

Speaker 3 (00:26:46):

Yes and no. So admittedly, and it's mildly embarrassing, but I have gotten to it's embarrassing slash like, wow, this is really cool. But it's kind of a two part answer. So yes, I'm persistent about something that I want really badly, but I've also gotten to a point where people knock on my door more often than not. So a lot of my steady income over the last couple of years has just been people coming to me asking me, will you work on this? Will you do this? But you can't level up that way just by getting asked to do stuff all the time. At some point you need to think to yourself, how do I leverage an award or success with clientele? How do I leverage that now into working with people that I want to work with? And it's kind of a little bit of a game of making sure that I understand that I'm very lucky that I have people who ask me, Hey, will you work on this?

(00:27:37):

How much would you cost? Versus, yeah, that's cool and everything, but you're asking me to work on something. Wasn't looking for looking to work on something like this. So now I have to, the last six months has been building a pitch for a TV series that the world doesn't know about yet, which is the most persistent thing I've ever done because writing music for something that doesn't exist, I'm writing out verbiage for a pitch. I'm thinking of how do I get in contact with the right people? It's a different kind of hunting, so to speak. So yes and no. And then I've also been, I want to work with bands more now too, and I want to work with bands that I like. And that could be somebody's band who I haven't heard before. I have no idea. Sometimes there could be a local band that's the next go Jira for all I know, I have no idea.

(00:28:23):

So I'll take a chance at that. But I'm also interested in working with bands that I look up to or listen to regularly and just taking the opportunity to be a part of the creative process for some people. So it's persistence in some directions, but I'm also stupidly comfortable right now, and it makes me uncomfortable to know that I do that. So I am becoming a bit more persistent with that. For example, I was going to be a part of.in some way in some form in the first place. I think when we were talking originally it was like synthesizers maybe here and there, but then it was like, how do we elevate this a little bit more So with you, I also know too that you're so methodical and planned out that you can't be pushed too hard. So you can't just email people consistently, text them, bother 'em, DM them, pretend to give a shit about their posts on social media and say like, dude, that's so great. That's awesome. Meaning you just copy and paste it. So I knew that I had to give you breathing room to get your ducks in a row.

Speaker 2 (00:29:23):

Yeah, well, you did it right. But that approach, lots of people, friends included, let me just say, it's not just strangers, but lots of people ask to do things with me or want things from me or are just coming at me at all times. And it's something where the grand majority of stuff I'm just not interested in. One thing I've learned is that music people will have an idea and get super excited about it and not think it through and then are so excited about it that they'll try to put it into motion without having thought it through. And so lots of the stuff that I get asked for is half baked or it's just stuff that I'm just not going to do some rando asking me to introduce them to Monica Connor or something. It's just not going to happen. Forget about it. It's not happening. There's a way that I will respond to people and actually consider things. And usually it's a combination of the person being persistent, me already knowing that they're not full of shit and actually good at something and them being respectful of my time and process basically.

Speaker 3 (00:30:39):

And I think also too, I was genuinely interested in what you were doing with it too. So that helps some people, they cast a wide net. They just reach out to a lot of people. I couldn't possibly advise against that more just reaching out to as many people as possible and then seeing what shit's going to stick to the wall. Don't do that. Find things that you're passionate about and then try and be involved in it somehow. And for you, it was like I knew you were thinking about doing some stuff. You were like, yeah, I think I want to play guitar again. And I was genuinely interested in finding out

Speaker 2 (00:31:11):

You lent me the fucking guitar. Thank you.

Speaker 3 (00:31:13):

Yeah, I did. Yeah, I sent you the iceman. Yeah, it was just like I wanted to know what was going on with it. Hey man, have you been working on music? What have you been working on? I want to hear it. And then there's some other moving parts that I was curious to hear just as knowing that I'm going to be involved somehow. And it got to the point where I was like, Hey man, I would love to give it a shot at some of this stuff if there's an opportunity. And it was through genuine interest in what you were doing. It wasn't some sociopathic way of me trying to find a stepping stone for leveling up. I just wanted to be a part of something. So I think that plays a huge role in the interaction between the two of us throughout the whole thing is that I was genuine.

(00:31:53):

And I don't think a lot of people are, especially in this day and age, there's a lot of narcissism kind of bundled up in this weird kind of social version of things through social media. And you have these people who are just willing to tell anybody how much they love something just to get into something. And then when they do, they're done and that's it. And that's not how I approach things. So I think that that's readable. I think people should take caution to that too, is that people who you're inquiring with are smarter than you think they are, so they know when you're bullshitting, so to speak.

Speaker 2 (00:32:26):

Yeah, that's one of the things I dislike about Nam actually, is the amount of people who you talk to under those circumstances. There's a lot of stuff I do like about Nam. I don't think it sucks, but that's one of the things I dislike about it. And that's why when people ask me about networking, which they do all the time, and URM has a course called Career Builder where I did a whole section on it and talk about two different kinds of networking, which is outcome oriented and outcome less basically. And long story short is the outcome less networking is the best kind because you're not talking to someone trying to get something out of them, you're just talking to them building a relationship, maybe if it goes organically, but you're just talking to them. There's no hidden agenda besides talking to them. Networking successes have all come from that. They've never really been from, I mean with very few exception from approaching a stranger with, I want to get this from them, I'm going to schmooze. It works every once in a while, but that's by and large my networking successes. Where something tremendous has happened has been through relationships that have grown organically over time without an outcome

Speaker 3 (00:33:46):

Or expecting something. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:33:47):

Exactly. Well, without expecting an outcome.

Speaker 3 (00:33:50):

Yeah, that's actually, so it's interesting that you say that. So my Aunt Celia, I think I've mentioned her to you before, her and my uncle Steve are financial advisors for theoretical physicists, and they wrote a book on how to build a career in science at one point. And one of the lines from the book is if you're not networking, you're not working. And when that was said to me, I was like, I can't unhear that. That's learning that Santa is not real. It's like, oh man, if I don't put myself out there, then I'm basically not going to make money. One of the things that's really interesting, and this is more towards the film side of things, is you have to think about who you're trying to network with. And in the film industry or the music composer industry, there's this misconception of who to be talking to.

(00:34:33):

The easiest person that you can talk to in the film world is going to be other composers. That's also the person you don't need to talk to for the most part unless you have a desire to learn information from them. So if you want to learn like, Hey, how did you get to where you're at? What are some of your influences? Like personal things, otherwise what are going to do? You're going to network with people who are trying to get the same job that you're getting. So what we do in the film industry is you network with the other moving parts. You want to talk to film editors and music supervisors and filmmakers. The circle that I'm a part of more so now than when I was in the band world is a little different now, but I've had really high level people. You've seen Lauren bfi or Han Zimmer give the advice of you're a filmmaker, you're not just a composer.

(00:35:18):

If you're not a part of the movie, then the movie's not going to be as good. There's very few movies with no music that actually matters. No country for Old Men's a good example, but you're such an important role of the filmmaking process that you have to look at yourself as a filmmaker. So having a passion for cinematography, screenwriting, the acting side of things and the editing and the visual effects, all of these things actually make you more of an asset in that world. So I find myself more interested in talking to filmmakers, and some people are crossovers, like Johann from Cult of Luna is a really good example. He's a director and he been talking about what he's been doing because doing a lot of really cool stuff with film and it carries over into the cult of Luna kind of stratosphere as well.

(00:36:03):

But then you have other people who are from bands now entering into the filmmaking world as well. You have Trent Resner has been doing it for a while, rest in peace. Johann Hanson was another one who came from a band and he did arrival in. There's a lot of people who are entering that world, and the reason why they're getting into it is because they're passionate about the filmmaking process. And I think that that's kind of something that could maybe carry over into the networking for producers and bands is who do you want to be talking to the most? You should be talking to the bands, but who else? What other moving parts are out there? I mean, it's also, yeah, the labels, labels, managers, that's exactly what I was going to say. Manager labels are really important and R people,

Speaker 2 (00:36:46):

Labels, managers. Yeah, totally. Those are the people you should be networking with.

Speaker 3 (00:36:51):

You can't just limit it to networking with other producers and building this whole network of other people who are all after the same thing. That's like being in prison.

Speaker 2 (00:37:01):

Yeah, it's really funny. So in the URM group, we do this Pay it forward thing every couple months where I encourage people to offer something to someone else in the group, and it'll be like stuff like I'll play session guitar on a track for the first three people that comment, stuff like that. But the thing that has always made me laugh is when people say, I'll mix your song. It's like you're offering to mix a song for mixers. That's not the point of this. That doesn't make any sense. You need to offer them something of value so that you can start a relationship together. Maybe I will edit drums for you for an album for free. That would be a good one if you're trying to get in with producers and mixers. But I will mix your song to mixers. It doesn't make any sense. And it's kind of along the same lines of what you're saying of if you're a composer and you want to advance in the film world, the people you should be networking with aren't your competition. You should be networking with the people you're going to be working with.

Speaker 3 (00:38:11):

Yeah, that's a good way to put it. You don't want to network with your competition. There's value in building a community.

Speaker 2 (00:38:16):

I mean, no, I mean, sure, why not? It's good to have brilliant friends who inspire you and you have a good, healthy competition with, but as far as serious career advancement goes, you want to be talking to the people that are going to be hiring you.

Speaker 3 (00:38:31):

Yeah. I think there's a misconception too that networking with other people who are doing the same thing you're doing may turn into an opportunity to become a replacement. Like, oh, hey, maybe they won't be able to take on a band or something, and then I'll do the next Every time I die record. It's like, no, that's probably not how it's going to work. The people who will Putney, he knows who's going to work on stuff for him if he can't, if he's not available. So you don't need to pretend like polishing their ass cheeks is going to get you the next album. It's not going to happen that way. That's just not how it works unless you're already somebody that person looks to as somebody that they respect. It's just really hard to do. And that happens with the composers a lot

Speaker 2 (00:39:10):

Or someone that's on their team, right,

Speaker 3 (00:39:12):

On the team. Yeah, exactly. These people have teams of people and composers do too, man. I mean, people probably don't know this, but one film is not made by a single composer most of the time. There's a lot of people involved, especially the Han Zimmer stuff. He's always had huge amounts of people work on stuff with him, and his ideas are the foremost selling point of the score, but he becomes kind of like a producer. I kind of do that too in a lot of ways sometimes now, where I will take somebody who's got a great sound and a great mind and then shape their skillset into something that's more suitable for the bigger picture. And he does the same thing. It's like a team of people. He's had Jeff Elli work with him. I mean, it's an endless amount of people, but it's a lot of people who work on stuff. So if Hans can't take an opportunity for a production, he's going to hand it off to somebody on his team, which is like 20 to 30 composers at this point. So that's kind of the same thing. Will's got a bunch of guys that work with him. Everybody's got a team. So focus more on the bands, think about the bands, think about the a and r people. Think about people who are booking agents or managers. There's so many other moving parts to look into as well.

Speaker 2 (00:40:24):

Hey, everybody, if you're enjoying this podcast, then you should know that it's brought to you by URM Academy, URM Academy's mission is to create the next generation of audio professionals by giving them the inspiration and information to hone their craft and build a career doing what they love. You've probably heard me talk about Nail the Mix before, and if you're a member, you already know how amazing it is. The beginning of the month, nail the mix members, get the raw multi-tracks to a new song by artists like Lama, God Angels and Airwaves. Knock Loose OPEC Shuga, bring me the Horizon. Gojira asking Alexandria Machine Head and Papa Roach among many, many others over 60 at this point. Then at the end of the month, the producer who mixed it comes on and does a live streaming walkthrough of exactly how they mix the song on the album and takes your questions live on air.

(00:41:16):

And these are guys like TLA Will Putney, Jenz Borin, Dan Lancaster to I Matson, Andrew Wade, and many, many more. You'll also get access to Mix Lab, which is our collection of dozens of bite-sized mixing tutorials that cover all the basics as well as Portfolio Builder, which is a library of pro quality multi-tracks cleared for use in your portfolio. So your career will never again be held back by the quality of your source material. And for those of you who really want to step up their game, we have another membership tier called URM Enhance, which includes everything I already told you about, and access to our massive library of fast tracks, which are deep, super detailed courses on intermediate and advanced topics like gain, staging, mastering, low end and so forth. It's over 500 hours of content. And man, let me tell you, this stuff is just insanely detailed.

(00:42:10):

Enhanced members also get access to one-on-ones, which are basically office hour sessions with us and Mix Rescue, which is where we open up one of your mixes and fix it up and talk you through exactly what we're doing at every step. So if any of that sounds interesting to you, if you're ready to level up your mixing skills in your audio career, head over to M Academy to find out more. Well, let's talk about something that happened for you in real life based on proper networking and everything we've been talking about. So you recently signed with Netflix to work with them on some projects. We can't divulge any information specifically about those projects, but can you walk us through a little bit of how the deal came about and what the process was to strike the deal with them?

Speaker 3 (00:42:58):

That was a word of mouth opportunity, so

Speaker 2 (00:43:01):

Not surprised.

Speaker 3 (00:43:03):

That's like the composing world as a whole. It's very hard to get in with the people directly. How do you get in with somebody at Netflix? How do you get in with somebody at Marvel? It's like where do you start? And a lot of people think it's knowing somebody who already works there and that works, but what's your reputation going into it?

Speaker 2 (00:43:19):

Who do you know and what do they think of you?

Speaker 3 (00:43:20):

Exactly, yes. And I spent so much time, everything happens later too, so you can't give up if it doesn't happen within the first day or a week. So I put myself out there basically in person at an event in 2019 and became just internet friends with a couple of people at Netflix based out of New Mexico. And it was just a long time of me genuinely finding the person. Interesting. And they don't really post a lot about productions that they're working on. It's more personal life stuff, and we have a lot of similar interests. So seeing posts about Old John Carpenter movies that I really liked a lot and talking about Fellini movies, stuff like that. It was just an interpersonal dynamic. But then I also simultaneously was not posting about nonsense throughout that entire time. I wasn't posting bullshit, that's irrelevant to myself. I was posting stuff about my wins, so to speak.

(00:44:15):

So I was always posting music that was getting released by so-and-so, and posting music and building my reputation with the people who are following me on social media. And at one point there just came a conversation of, would you ever consider working on a production like this? And I always find it so funny, it's like, do you not know where I'm at in this life right now? I would kill to be on that production. But to them, they're like, would you be interested? And I was just like, I will happily be a part of this, trying to keep it cool. And then I got invited to go actually to the studios and meet people and sign contracts and stuff. Some of this stuff is, it's a really weird contract too. I wish I could talk about it because it's like a whole form of education to understand how this stuff works financially for people who work on stuff like that.

(00:45:06):

So it's just a word of mouth thing and it's a long game process. That's a lot of things for me. I became friends with somebody at Ivanez, and we talked maybe a year and a half before they actually asked me to write something for them to release a guitar line, which is a guitar that you got that I let you borrow. It took that much time for them to ask me to do something for them. And I just had said early on if there's anything I can ever do to help or be a part of the team, I've been using Ivan as a guitar since my first guitar I had that was worth something, was Ivan as so it would make sense. And it took a long time of proving myself subconsciously to people that I can write music, that I can do things that I'm passionate about this. And then it just took a long time. And that's the same thing for everything, honestly. It's a long game. You have to be ready to sit for a year and a half until that seed that you planted grows basically.

Speaker 2 (00:46:03):

Yeah, that's not that long though.

Speaker 3 (00:46:05):

It's not. Some people it's longer.

Speaker 2 (00:46:06):

Yeah, year and a half. That's quick. Honestly,

Speaker 3 (00:46:09):

Some actors, it takes 20 years

Speaker 2 (00:46:11):

Going from total stranger to working together year and a half. That's great actually. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (00:46:15):

Look at the guy who plays Mike on Breaking Bad, the older guy, the Hitman, the cleanup dude, the Wolf. That guy was an actor since, I don't know, the seventies, maybe the sixties.

Speaker 2 (00:46:26):

I remember him I believe in 48 hours.

Speaker 3 (00:46:29):

Oh yeah, that's right. He was in that,

Speaker 2 (00:46:31):

Yeah, very briefly

Speaker 3 (00:46:32):

With Eddie Murphy and Nick Malty.

Speaker 2 (00:46:34):

Yeah, he got shot at the very beginning of the movie. But

Speaker 3 (00:46:37):

That's it though, right? There's that huge gap in between and sure, he kept busy and did stuff, but did we know him? No. Right? Most people,

Speaker 2 (00:46:44):

No.

Speaker 3 (00:46:44):

So it just takes a while. That happens for a lot of people. Same with Jesse Pinkman, Aaron Paul. He was somewhat involved in smaller productions. It's a long game. And you also have to know when you're winning too. How do you keep pushing forward without knowing that you're building points? You're collecting those sonic rings, you're getting somewhere. You have to know when those things exist. Otherwise you're just like, nothing's happening. I feel like my career is not doing anything, man. I think I'm just going to get dude fuck off with that mindset. You're not going to survive that. One of the things that I actually want to talk to you about is this misconception of imposter syndrome, which is such a overused term that I see people used very often. There are so many people who are not the person that they want to be yet who are labeling themselves as having imposter syndrome.

(00:47:35):

And really what they're having is a moment of insecurity. They're unsure of themselves. When you're an imposter, it means that you became something, right? So it's like, I'm a successful band producer. How long is this going to last? Why me? I'm not that great. Why am I so good at it? If you're like a dude who's still trying and you think you have imposter syndrome, that's just you're unsure of yourself, there's a total difference. So people are kind of crutching a little too hard on that term, and I think it actually tends to stunt the growth process for a lot of people to label themselves. So early on with that,

Speaker 2 (00:48:06):

Well, no, you're absolutely right because imposter syndrome is something that

Speaker 3 (00:48:11):

Successful

Speaker 2 (00:48:12):

People have, and it's a good thing because you should be asking yourself if you belong in that position, and you should be asking yourself how long it's going to last so that you do figure out how to keep it going. So imposter syndrome is a very positive thing, I think, for a successful person to have. But you're absolutely right that until you have ascended to something, gotten into a position, becomes something aware, you're now in something that you weren't before or at a level that you weren't before then an imposter to what. So yes, you're absolutely right, and I think that actually what a lot of people do is they say they have imposter syndrome, and they label that as the reason for why they don't do anything.

Speaker 3 (00:49:01):

It's a crutch.

Speaker 2 (00:49:02):

It is just insecurity. You're right. But I think that even real imposter syndrome is also an insecurity, but it's a good insecurity. You should feel insecure about things.

Speaker 3 (00:49:13):

It's a rightful insecurity.

Speaker 2 (00:49:15):

Yeah, you should definitely ask yourself if you deserve to be where you're at, because nothing lasts indefinitely.

Speaker 3 (00:49:23):

There's no job security and a lot of the success that we're all looking for, it's how much you want to work.

Speaker 2 (00:49:28):

And anything in this world,

Speaker 3 (00:49:30):

Unless you own an oil company or a water filtration company or some government related thing, there's no security to it. And even then, even then, forget about it. There's just no security to it. And honestly, there's probably a lot of people listening right now who have damaged their workflow by thinking about whether or not they have imposter syndrome. It's like, no, you don't have it. Keep working really hard and then start succeeding when people are knocking on your door constantly. That's a good time to start. Why me? When is this going to stop? When do people stop caring about me?

Speaker 2 (00:50:01):

Yeah. When are they going to realize I'm a fraud? When are they going to realize I suck?

Speaker 3 (00:50:06):

Yeah. That's the time to start thinking about that. Not before though. Not when you're working a 40 plus hour week job doing something else that pays all of your bills, and on the side you're doing this thing and you're like, oh, maybe I'm not. Nope. That's just doubt. That's a totally different thing. Actually, that's another good point too, is the safety net syndrome. You and I have kind of talked about this too. I think it's really more important for people who are still building, but having a safety net is something that actually makes it really hard to succeed for a lot of people as well. It's not everybody, but when you have job security, if you have parents who will bail you out of situations, if you get to live at home rent free, where's the pressure to succeed in that? Other than want and a parent who's always like, yeah, oh, you've got debt and you can't handle it anymore.

(00:50:55):

Life's not working out well, here's payment for all that. You don't have to worry about it. There's no pressure. You have to have some type of pressure to make you succeed. Even if that pressure is imaginary. You want to prove somebody wrong. You want to show somebody, I can do it. Somebody told me I can't. Well, here I am, I'm going to do it. That's at least a little bit of a safety net kind of shaker a little bit. You can cut a hole through that, but in a lot of ways, imposter syndrome can be a bit of a safety net for people because when you're doubting yourself, you're making safety plans, you're putting the bumpers on the lanes, you're like, oh, well, I have to have a job that pays good money so I can continue to pursue this passion. And it's like, yes, you can do that, but then you also need to really challenge yourself. I know when you and I first started talking, you told me about how you shaped your first days as a producer. You just racked up credit card debt. That's a lot of pressure.

Speaker 2 (00:51:48):

Yeah, that was funny and fun. I took those student credit cards and just maxed them the fuck out. But

Speaker 3 (00:51:55):

Then you had the pressure to do something with it.

Speaker 2 (00:51:58):

Absolutely. To be frank and honest, I kind of had to create my own pressure. I come from a successful family, so I didn't have the survival pressure that a lot of people have. Not to say that they would've just paid my way through everything because that, no, but still the safety net with my family, it was definitely a real thing. And it's one of those things that I would also give that for my family. I wasn't raised with this and I don't believe in it, that if you have the means, why would you cut your kids off? Why wouldn't you try to give them everything you possibly could if you're able to? Where my family came from was really horrible stuff, and so they took that mentality of we're going to give next generation a better start than ours. So I had to create my own pressure, which wasn't hard to do because fucked up, but it had to be there. So I have this insane drive to prove things to myself and to make things happen. It's this nonstop hunger for it. It's definitely coming from a fucked up place. And it's definitely from a pressure and that pressure is a combination of things. It's not the standard thing. My parents kicked me out or my parents cut me off. I have to make this work. It's this weird psychological thing, but it's definitely there and it's always been there and without that, I wouldn't have been able to do anything I've done.

Speaker 3 (00:53:25):

Yeah, sometimes you have to cut yourself off from your parents. You got to flee the coop and create the pressure onto yourself. The hardest thing for me, and I think it's kind of a small lesson for those looking to level up, I guess, is when I saw the opportunity to start composing with Marvel. It was so safe. At first, it was a lot of work, but it was safe. I was like, I still have a job, but I'm doing Marvel on the side. Maybe those things will build nothing built for me during that time when I left my job,

Speaker 2 (00:53:56):

No, you have to need it.

Speaker 3 (00:53:57):

I left my job and remove the security, and then I was like, now I need to leverage this stepping stone, one of the biggest stepping stones in my career and leverage that into more work. And it's just been basically, if I have to pay for bills, I pay for, everything in my family is on me, so I have to succeed. That's on me, my dog, her bills, everything, my home bills, car paying for my mother and she's under my care financially. All of those things are pressure that makes me get up every day and at least put my mental self into what I'm doing on a daily basis. And that pressure has made me level up and also keep actively thinking of ways to succeed. It's not just doing composing and for Marvel. I'm thinking outside the box. Can I work with musical instrument companies because I'm passionate about that, but also get paid to do it in some way, working with bands, producing other people's stuff that they're doing, doing educational things for going to film schools and talking to different people. It's like you have to always be thinking about something when you don't have a check that just shows up at your house every single week or month or whatever.

Speaker 2 (00:55:12):

Yeah, you have to need it for some reason. Somehow you have to find a way to need it. That's why I don't really believe in having a fallback plan, which is weird to say to people because most people aren't going to succeed in music, so to tell them to not have a fallback is frankly stupid for most people. But at the same time, everyone I know who has done well at some point, either they abandoned the fallback plan or plan B or they never had one in the first place. The vast majority of people I know who have done well are like that. You have to need it

Speaker 3 (00:55:49):

And you have to do everything you can. I guess the hardest part that comes from that is when you start becoming successful, you have to know when to ask other people for help too, because you can't just be a one man ship for all of eternity and be successful that way. You have to start figuring out when to ask other people for help. And that's something that I see kind of go wrong with a lot of producers is like they want to keep their finances insourced as much as humanly possible, and they don't want to ask other people for help because then they're losing their financial opportunities. But at some point when you're getting to the point where you're in demand and bands are knocking on your door or whatever it is is knocking on your door, you have to know when to start bringing other people in to be a part of the process so you can level up the quality that you are outputting from your business.

(00:56:35):

And in a lot of ways, it's probably scary to do that, but I find that, for example, when Boren asked me to work on the new amorphous record, he's doing well enough where he can hire other people. He is got a whole team of people, he's got a fleet basically. But I don't think that he just got there by just doing it by himself the entire time. At some point, he had to probably say, I need help from other people, whether that's an assistant or editors or whatever it is. And then that just builds. That's kind of something that people need to think about too, is think about a bigger picture is you're going to at some point need to let go of controlling all of that money and let other people help you make more, basically.

Speaker 2 (00:57:16):

Yeah, I find that a lot of people have trouble with that idea, and it's not just producers. I see that with entrepreneurs a lot. You see a lot of entrepreneurs try to do the solopreneur thing because it is easier. You make more short-term money that way, but without having a team, your potential for growth is super stunted, super, super stunted. And so yeah, I've seen a lot of the solopreneurs just kind of hit this ceiling and not be able to go further because they're greedy straight up, they're just greedy. End of story. They're greedy. They didn't want to share the money with anybody, and so they didn't have the benefit of having multiple brains on the project, and you only get as far as you can get if it's just you. It's definitely limited.

Speaker 3 (00:58:04):

Yeah, that's a really good way to put it actually. It's something that it's hard to think about. I remember just about this time last year, I did a mentorship group and I asked people a bunch of questions. I wanted to really vet the people who wanted to be a part of it. I had so many people ask me to be a part of it, and it was for film composers, aspiring composers.

Speaker 2 (00:58:22):

Yeah, I remember.

Speaker 3 (00:58:23):

Yeah. So I made this really kind of rigorous questionnaire of if you have a wedding or a birthday or something, are you still going to take 15 minutes to show up to my meetings regardless of what's going on and just check in and then you can go back to what you're doing? And if people put no, then they just didn't get into the mentorship group. And one of my kids in my mentorship group, who was also a URM kid from a year or so before that, he was following me on social media for a while and then asked me a part of my mentorship group. He took such great advantage of the opportunity and proved himself to be an amazing asset to the composing world. And I'm kind of a solution-based composer where I want the composing world to be better and more diverse. So I need to find people who can provide that as a solution instead of bitching bed on social media.

(00:59:06):

So this kid who's Robert Bru Mayer, we call him B Bruie, he was a part of my group. He's at the time 24 years old living in Slovakia on average. People in Slovakia make about $700 in a household per month. I heard that. And I also heard his potential and heard how incredibly talented he was and how smart he was and interested. And I'm like, dude, I'm going to hire you as my assistant. And I didn't even think about it going into the mentorship group. It happened right towards the end of it. I'm like, I need to provide an opportunity to this kid because he's so incredibly talented and I know that I'm going to lose money doing that in a lot of ways. Now I'm paying somebody out of pocket, but he's literally in the US right now.

Speaker 2 (00:59:49):

You expanded your capacity to do work.

Speaker 3 (00:59:51):

Exactly, yep. And I'm so glad that I did because he's literally in the, he hasn't flown out of his country before in his entire life. And he literally landed in Atlanta a couple of days ago at the international airport, and he's here now after a year, and he's here for work and for networking, and we have work to do together. And I'm hoping that this provides opportunity for him to come to the country and work here and live here and have better opportunities. And for me, it was a little bit stressful at the time when I first did it, but now I am just aiming for more money, creating a bigger picture, and it was like the smartest thing I ever did. But at one point you would've found me as a person who's like, I can't share, dude. This is like I live off of every penny I have, but now I'm like, I have to take that risk and expand and grow. And that ultimately led me to, now I'm sure this I've told you about it, but Randy Slaw, he's a composer slash producer. He's worked with periphery Devon Townsend.

Speaker 2 (01:00:52):

Yeah, I was getting ready to ask you about your work with Randy actually.

Speaker 3 (01:00:56):

Yeah, so Randy and I had been talking about working together for quite a long time. There's not a lot of people who do what we do in the metal world. It's much smaller than pretty much any other kind of niche facet of helping with the music production side of things. And we talked about working together and then eventually we just started a production company that we'll be announcing soon. It's called Mighty Music Group, and I have Randy Slaw on board. My assistant is a part of it. Randy's close friend and co-producer, Matt Christensen, who's also in white moth black butterfly with Daniel from Tesseract is a part of it. And Sydney, my girlfriend, she's an incredible orchestrator and can translate the things that we do as composers who are like, we're good at coming up with the ideas, but she's the kind of person who takes that and makes it make sense for real instruments like orchestral ensembles and all these different things.

(01:01:48):

So we have this team building. George Lever is a huge part of mixed production for me personally right now. So I've been going to him for mixing and I'm building a team because I ultimately need more people that I can rely on to handle the work that I've been getting and to be able to, Hey, Randy, do you want to work on this? Or Hey, Mac, do you want to work on this and pass the torch a little bit? So it's been really awesome. And one of the main goals for us that's relevant to URM is that we want to be a huge source of bands where they go bands and producers, where they go when they need professional composing, not somebody's winging it and seeing if they can do it and they want to do it themselves. We are going to be a solution for kind of putting a expiration date on the timelessness of the productions that bands and producers are putting out.

Speaker 2 (01:02:36):

I like the talk about the expiration date.

Speaker 3 (01:02:38):

Yeah, it's an interesting thing, right?

Speaker 2 (01:02:40):

Yeah, I do think it's an interesting thing. Could you talk a little more about that?

Speaker 3 (01:02:45):

So the expiration date, the way I look at, it's like if I listen to a new metal record from some time, right? There's going to be something about that new metal record that's kind of like, whoa, man, that's a product of the time. It's almost kind of like CGI.

Speaker 2 (01:02:58):

Yep. I hear 2001 all over it.

Speaker 3 (01:03:00):

If you can tell when the music came out in a not good way, by the way, if you can tell when that music came out, what trends were going on at the time, you have just eliminated timelessness from your production and that's something that you desperately want to avoid. I listened to Catatonia, great Cold Distance came out in the early two thousands, like mid two thousands still sounds amazing to me, could have come out yesterday. Same with Mud Vein, LD 50. There's a lot of that. Record to me is still from the future in a lot of ways. And Slip Nut too, slipknots still more aggressive than any cross armed pseudo tough guy, kind of hardcore band right now.

Speaker 2 (01:03:40):

I can't believe some of that stuff is over 20 years old.

Speaker 3 (01:03:43):

It's insane to think that that is that old. It's because it's timeless and they didn't conform to flavor of the moment trends and also all those bands outsourced. So for me, the expiration date that I hear these days is a producer or somebody in the band take on the role of doing something that's not currently in their skillset. For example, composing for orchestra or strings or brass or woodwinds. It's just not something that you just all of a sudden get good at because you have MIDI programmed for your guitars and then you just switch it over. There's so much more to that. You have to understand things like the mechanics of performance that goes behind each player. Which techniques are you using? Are you going to be using staccato or are you going to be using pto? Those are two different things. They look like similar words.

(01:04:29):

But then also in the middle of a violin run, for example, how many different techniques exist within that? It's the same thing with guitar. If somebody is doing economy picking and then they switch to hybrid picking, you can't just set the guitar player's mind to just straight up alternate, pick the whole thing. You have to find those nuances. And I hear it more on a technical side of things, but I also hear it on the overall production side of things. I've heard records songs as recently as a couple of weeks ago where I just went, why did they do this? It's so upset. Do they not know that people like us exist out there? It's probably that, but also are they afraid we're too expensive? I know I've had people say with record label budgets like, dude, I don't know how much you cost. What do you cost?

(01:05:15):

And I'm like, dude, trust me. You can't afford my composer rate. Just tell me what you have because I care more about the project you're presenting than I care about how much money you have. Basically, I know how little money you're getting from your record label for this budget for this album. So for me, it's like you just have to run the risk and ask. Some people are in bands where it's like, you could be my next favorite band and I'd work on it for free. You have no idea. You don't know until you ask. But please, for the love of God, don't do it yourself. Don't buy Spitfire Albion one and then put the velocities at 1 27 and then just cross over your MIDI from your guitar parts and put it over that you're wasting your time because your goal for making music should be that you're going to make something that you can listen back to at some point down the road. If you're not doing that, then why are you doing it? And that's the expiration date. So there's not a lot of us that are doing it, so you just have to look for it. And obviously I'm one of them. Randy Slaw is one of them. I mean, Randy's worked on countless amounts of records.

(01:06:18):

He's been doing this longer than I have in terms of working with bands, how bands have negated to look into, I think it's probably a communication issue. Maybe they're afraid to ask. But one of my biggest grudges right now with the band production world is just hearing these terribly orchestrated VST library kind of productions. It's really sad. You don't have to use real strings by any means, but end rent.

Speaker 2 (01:06:39):

I know what you're saying. And I think that it's really important for people to know that people in metal, I don't know how it works in other genres, but in metal, yeah, people do need to make money. However, people will also do stuff that they think is cool for less money just because they think it's cool. The most expensive people I know will still do stuff on the cheap or even free if they think it's cool, they have to be getting something out of it. But in some cases, just thinking it's cool is enough.

Speaker 3 (01:07:09):

And what is something to some people in the film world, a lot of the times, one of the big questions is, and again, I've seen people like Han Zimmer respond to these questions. Jeff Selli, really big name. People will say, somebody will go, I got asked to work on this documentary or this film. It's a really cool documentary and really cool or really cool film. It's amazing. I'm really into it. I'm the perfect person for it, but they don't have a budget. And then should I do it even if it doesn't pay? And then you'll get somebody like Han Zimmer, the king of this shit will say, yeah, but what's the value to you? Are you passionate about it? Is it worth it? Because it's a great credit to your reputation. It's a good portfolio builder. It's something that you could be proud of and that you would enjoy doing. And then if the answer is yes, then you got paid a ton in mental money. There's a huge return in that sense. And also points. Points are huge too. For a lot of people. All you need is a point. Give me one point on the record or whatever the amount is, or just tell people about the work that I did. That's payment. There's ways to get paid for a lot of people.

Speaker 2 (01:08:15):

It's funny. I agree with you completely. And you get a lot of producers that are multimillionaires and older, been successful for a really long time, who tell young producers to never do anything for free. And they say how they'll never do anything for free. And it's like, dude, you don't remember what it was like to build your career. You've been rich for so long. You're not in touch with this and this is terrible advice. And I bet you did stuff for free when you were building yourself

Speaker 3 (01:08:41):

At some point.

Speaker 2 (01:08:42):

Yeah, definitely. And I agree with Ann Zimmer about it. No one would approach him to do anything for free, I'm sure. But still, I agree with him. He's

Speaker 3 (01:08:49):

Done stuff for free.

Speaker 2 (01:08:50):

I'm sure he has.

Speaker 3 (01:08:51):

Yeah. And not even that long ago.

Speaker 2 (01:08:54):

I'm sure he has. He doesn't need the money. He doesn't need it. I'm sure that at this point he has to be into it.

Speaker 3 (01:09:01):

Oh yeah. I mean that's why he doesn't do a lot of productions. If you notice, he's not part of a lot of productions. He hands a lot off, but he works on stuff he's passionate about. That's the foremost. Dune is a great example. He wanted to work on that and other opportunities came up at the same time and he's like, oh God, I can't do all of this at the same time and do a good job. At the very least. And he picked and choose. He chose what he wanted to do, and I'm sure that money is a great part of it. I'm sure they had the figures and everything, but it's something

Speaker 2 (01:09:33):

I'm sure, but it's not like he needed the money. That's the thing though,

Speaker 3 (01:09:37):

Right? Yeah, exactly. He wanted to work on something he's passionate about. It's kind of the same reason why he, it's part of the reason why he didn't do tenant. As a matter of fact, we all expected him to do 10. It turned out to be Ludwig, which is by the way, probably the coolest thing to happen over the last 10 years with new composers is him and that soundtrack, he knocked it out of the park.

Speaker 2 (01:09:57):

Nothing is great.

Speaker 3 (01:09:58):

And he changed the perspective of what composing can be. His influence of chuga and electronic music and all these different things kind of came all into one thing. And now we have something actually unique for once. It's a really interesting thing to think about. And I know for me personally, you could kind look at it like somebody who wants to be a drummer, a session drummer for a living. Sure, you could ask for money all the time, but what happens if your favorite band in the world that inspired you to play in the first place asked you to fill in and it's just for one tour? I mean, are you going to say no? Because they're not going to pay as much money as you're used to getting from bands who are hiring you on a daily basis. You got to see the opportunity as value as well. Also too, I've been in situations where you kind of do have to better call SA a little bit and be like, dude, just stick a dollar in my pocket. I need to know that you're serious. You got to have a little bit of money for this budget. But you have to know when those are the opportunities for that. Because people sometimes in order to take you seriously, need to pay you something. That's a conversation you and I had at one point. It's like you got to get paid something Sometimes.

Speaker 2 (01:11:03):

Sometimes, but not always.

Speaker 3 (01:11:05):

Everything's subjective.

Speaker 2 (01:11:06):

Again, it's a judgment call and a gamble. You have to assess each project for its individual merits. And there's things that are more valuable than money, I think that you can get from a project like the reputation builder, the experience builder, the network builder. You can't buy that stuff. So if you're getting that stuff, maybe a project is zero upfront, just points down the line or something or nothing, but your experience, networking and reputation points go up a lot. That's definitely worth it.

Speaker 3 (01:11:41):

And also, if you're not getting paid to be a part of something, you still have to act like you are getting paid. David Tarro asked me to be a part of a project that I really wanted to be a part of because it was fun. I wanted to work with Dave on something. I treated it like I was getting paid the same money I get paid from Marvel or Universal. It's the same thing to me at the end of the day, because I have to do a level 100 good job on something because that's my reputation that's on the line. There were moments where I was really frustrated. There's metal. People have a knack for squeezing a lot of notes into one little song, and it's fucking exhausting sometimes. But I spent so much time on it that I actually lost money working on another project. I had to pass it off, but I still treated it the same exact way. I had to put my all into it, and I did it just out of passion. It became something bigger than it actually ended up being, but the value was there for me, and I'm glad that I did it, but you still have to treat free or little money the same way that you treat anything. Why do it if you're not going to? Yeah,

Speaker 2 (01:12:42):

I completely agree. And not just that doing a great job for Dave is good. There's a future in that.

Speaker 3 (01:12:51):

Yeah, the long game.

Speaker 2 (01:12:52):

Yeah. That's something that could, yeah, that's definitely a long game. Just to circle back, I think the moral of the story is play the long game. Yeah,

Speaker 3 (01:13:01):

Absolutely. Yeah. I also like genuinely wanted, if I didn't do it, then I know what the alternative was going to be, right? That somebody in the band was going to do it. And I felt a moral obligation to being a part of a change in that regard where it's like, well, I really can't take this on right now, but I really want this to come out good because I want Dave to succeed. I want the guys in the band to succeed. So I had to do my best and I wanted to be involved with it for a good reason too. I wanted it to come out good. And that's ultimately kind of what I want bands and producers to stop doing mostly is the insourcing. Why it's such a problem is because there's people like me, we're here to make things better. That's what the goal is.

(01:13:41):

There's only so much production leveling up that can take place over the next couple of years to make music actually feel different. There are guys who are amazing at it. Booster a great, he's a good example. He took eruption and made their productions absolutely flawless and it's like a total level up, but at some point it's going to be like, what's the next step? What additional layers and environments can be added to these productions that's going to make it better? And that's kind of, I think the future of music is going to be like having experts in the synth and orchestra world come in to make things better.

Speaker 2 (01:14:12):

I agree. Yeah, and I think that's a good place to end the episode. I want to thank you for coming back on. It's always a pleasure.

Speaker 3 (01:14:20):

Yeah, absolutely man. Thank you. And I know your listeners are going to shit when they hear your new doth stuff, they're going to be creaming. They big time. So thanks for having me on.

Speaker 2 (01:14:28):

They're better. Alright, then another URM podcast episode in the bag. Please remember to share our episodes with your friends as well as post them to your Facebook and Instagram or any social media you use. Please tag me at al Levi URM audio at URM Academy. And of course tag our guests as well. I mean, they really do appreciate it. In addition, do you have any questions for me about anything? Email them to me at al at M Academy. That's EYAL. At M do ACA DMY and use the subject line Answer me Eyal. Alright then. Till next time, happy mixing.

Speaker 1 (01:15:09):

You've been listening to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast. To ask us questions, make suggestions and interact, visit URM Academy and press the podcast link today.