JAKOB HERRMANN: Pro Drum Miking, “Feels Good” vs “Sounds Good”, and Recording Orchestral Metal

Speaker 1 (00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast,

Speaker 2 (00:04):

And now your host, Eyal Levi.

(00:08):

Welcome to the URM podcast. Thank you so much for being here. It's crazy to think that we are now on our seventh year. Don't ask me how that all just flew by, but it did. Man, time moves fast and it's only because of you, the listeners, if you'd like us to stick around another seven years and there's a few simple things you can do that would really, really help us out, I would endlessly appreciate if you would, number one, share our episodes with your friends. Number two, post our episodes on your Facebook and Instagram and tag me at al Levi URM audio and at URM Academy and of course our guest. And number three, leave us reviews and five star reviews wherever you can. We especially love iTunes reviews. Once again, thank you for all the years and years of loyalty. I just want you to know that we will never charge you for this podcast, and I will always work as hard as possible to improve the episodes in every single way. All we ask in return is a share a post and tag us. Oh, and one last thing. Do you have a question you would like me to answer on an episode? I don't mean for a guest. I mean for me, it can be about anything. Email it to [email protected]. That's EYAL at m dot A-C-D-E-M-Y. There's no.com on that. It's exactly the way I spelled it and use the subject line Answer me Eyal. Alright, let's get on with it. Hello everybody. Welcome to the September Discord q and a. I've got Mr. Jacob Herrmann here. Hello, Jacob.

Speaker 3 (01:47):

Hello.

Speaker 2 (01:48):

How are you doing, sir?

Speaker 3 (01:49):

I'm fine. I'm sitting here in my control room after a day of bass recording.

Speaker 2 (01:53):

Awesome. Well, glad to have you here.

Speaker 3 (01:55):

Glad to be here.

Speaker 2 (01:56):

Yeah, always a pleasure. While we're waiting for questions to start coming in, I want to know a little bit more about your live room.

Speaker 3 (02:05):

What about it?

Speaker 2 (02:06):

Well tell people about your studio setup first of all, because it's pretty unique. Pretty epic too.

Speaker 3 (02:12):

Yeah, it's pretty unique. It's in an old theater in the absolute center of Gothenburg in a theater that was built in 1850 something. They built the studio I think in 2005 and I took it over and now have it as my studio basically. Then yeah, it's control room and live room, but it's also patched up to the stage, the theater stage.

Speaker 2 (02:43):

Did you find it difficult to patch through walls? Built in the 18 hundreds?

Speaker 3 (02:48):

Luckily enough I didn't have to do

Speaker 2 (02:51):

Any

Speaker 3 (02:51):

Of the studio build that was done by people who know more about that than me.

Speaker 2 (02:56):

Okay. Thank God. Okay, we have a question. First up is Mr. Joe Scota.

Speaker 4 (03:04):

I just want to say thank you for doing this, Jacob. I was going to ask a base question per your post in the PPC, but I decided to keep it on topic, so I wanted to ask, what's your approach when capturing overheads? Is your whole goal to capture the entire drum kit or are you only going after symbols only?

Speaker 3 (03:21):

I'll start with saying you can ask bass questions. That's fine.

Speaker 2 (03:25):

Yeah, ask about anything. We're doing this particularly because Jacob recorded the vola drums and everyone wants to know more about the vola drums, but you can all ask about anything you want, so would love to hear your bass question and then also this one.

Speaker 4 (03:41):

Okay, I can do that. When tracking bass, what is your goal for capturing the room mic and then I guess we could push that question for guitar caps too. Do you ever use room mics on guitars?

Speaker 3 (03:52):

I mean, yeah, sometimes I think it's, I don't always do it, but that photo today was just too good not to share. So when I feel that there's a room for the base in the frequencies and maybe even in the mix, I think you can't really get the high end in the same way with the close mic or the DI or whatever trick you use the same way that you can with a room mic. So if there is a possibility to, it's not so much a room micing the base, but more like distance micing the cab. Some people thought that I did it for the low end, but it's actually the other way around. I roll off the low end and use it more for mids and highs and try to blend that in with the 4 21 that I put on it and then later blending that with the DI that I'll process in other ways.

Speaker 4 (04:44):

Do you think that's because of the proximity effect of the close spike that you're getting that bump in the low end?

Speaker 3 (04:51):

Low end is easy, especially low low end, but that high end that comes from distance micing something is not the same at all. It's basically the same thing as a snare drum. Doesn't sound like a snare drum just close, but it's together with the overhead. So the kit mics, like the distance mics that it actually sounds like you think of a snare drum in a room and the sound of a cab in a room, no matter if it's bass cab or guitar cab, is just something that's so nice to sometimes capture. I don't do it all the time. I really don't do it, not even half the time, but when I feel there's space for it, I do it and it's also something I do. Maybe if a song has it's busy and there's things happening, but then there's a section in a song where I can blend that in to make the listener have that sound of being in front of the cab. It's really hard to get that in just close mics. And it's the same for guitar cabs. I think same thing that I sometimes use mid side miking for guitar cabs. Not always, not even often, but sometimes. What was the original question again? I forgot

Speaker 4 (06:08):

That one was about overhead mics. Are you focusing on capturing the drum set as a whole or are you just trying to capture symbols only?

Speaker 3 (06:16):

It can be depending on the sound and it's also depending on what other mics I have going on. If the sound is supposed to be more of a natural sound, then I try to think about the kit. But if it's about the symbols, I will EQ it differently and place the overheads differently. Sometimes one type of kit makes more sense to do it with a xy, sometimes a kit makes more sense to do it with a ab, I don't really have a rule for it, but I think it's different techniques for different results. For instance, when we did the recording for VTA with Buster Ol, another URM favorite back in, what was it? February? I don't remember, but a couple of months ago we did both an XY and ab, but we did the AB with omnidirectional mics and the XY with cardio pattern mics and to blend those together in a certain way.

Speaker 2 (07:21):

What about Vola?

Speaker 3 (07:23):

Vola was AB because Adam has such a unique setup with all his stacks and he has a pretty tiny kit size-wise, like footprint wise, and he only has floor toss and no rack toss. So in order to make the kit a bit wider, we thought AB would be a good choice for that one.

Speaker 2 (07:49):

Makes sense. Okay. First up is Toby Allen.

Speaker 5 (07:53):

Thanks Jacob for coming on Discord and chatting with us.

Speaker 2 (07:56):

Well,

Speaker 3 (07:57):

Thank you.

Speaker 5 (07:57):

So the question, when crafting tones, whether it's guitar, bass or drums, where do you think the line is between what sounds good and what feels good? And what I mean by that is what might sound objectively or technically good might not necessarily be what puts across the message of the band or the story of the song. So where do you draw the line between that

Speaker 3 (08:22):

Damn Toby? That's a good question. That's actually a great question how to answer that. I mean, sometimes a song or a sound for band or it's based on feel. I feel that Vola, for instance, is very much based on feel and trying to make a feeling come across with other bands, it's more about get me, don't misunderstand me, but sometimes it's about the playing coming through and not so much of the feel the the band is the playing, but with Volite more about the song and when crafting tones, I think for me it's important to kind of work with the musician and make that musician sound like him or herself the best I can so that when he or she plays that person can feel, yeah, this is me playing. It's not you forcing a sound on me, but it's you shaping a sound that really fits either my playing or it fits this song or it fits this specific album or it's going to suit the person mixing it with Vol album.

(09:33):

I already knew Jacob was going to mix it and we've done so many projects together, so many albums together that I had a good sense of how he was going to mix it. So of course I shaped the tones with that in mind to give him what he needs and not only I can't just enforce my vision without taking consideration of the band and the person mixing and whatever, but I think where the line goes, it's all about where you are in that moment. And I feel it's pretty easy, I think to feel when a sound fits the production or fits the drummer or the musician or fits the album, we're doing the sound of the album and I shape the sound fairly much when recording on the console or without boards in different ways.

Speaker 2 (10:34):

It's one of those things where at the end of the day, understanding that line is where the money's at in doing this successfully. I mean, it's one of those things that you really can only develop through experience because it's kind of impossible to really verbalize, but it's one of those things that when you do it enough, you start to know what it is that you're looking for, B, what it is that somebody else is looking for, and C, when you've got something that actually brings their performances and the tones you're going for to life, you just know your ear is I guess tuned into that. And it's one of those things that at the beginning, you're just not going to until you've done it a bunch of times.

Speaker 3 (11:26):

And I guess it's one of those things that you just develop so much that after a while you do it without thinking about it so much. Maybe in the beginning you're thinking consciously about certain things, but after a while it just turns into a thing that you have a sense for. But of course, it's at the same time something you have to take into consideration and think about all those aspects. And also thinking about the other people involved, you have to think about the band, you have to think about the song, and you have to think about the person mixing if you're more than one person involved in a project.

Speaker 2 (12:05):

Thanks, Toby. Okay, next up we've got Scott Bennett. How are you guys doing? Hey, good, how are you

Speaker 6 (12:12):

Doing? Good. My question I just wanted to ask, I think a lot of our audience is kind of like they're working towards their audio careers and trying to get those next steps, and I was just wondering if there's ever been a time in your career where you've had a band that sort of has a pedigree or something where if you were the guy to mess it up, it would be really stressful and a lot of fingers would be pointed at you, and I think some of our community could be in this position where they just got this band that is a little bit higher echelon than what they're used to and there's a lot riding on it. How should they deal with those nerves and how would they handle this situation to come out on top and obviously create more work for themselves?

Speaker 3 (12:50):

First of all, I have to Google what pedigree means because

Speaker 6 (12:55):

Just high stature or notable or respected I guess.

Speaker 2 (12:58):

Oh, I see. But in a formal sort of way, could you restate the first part of the question?

Speaker 6 (13:05):

So what would you say to someone who just got a contract with a band that's up and coming in order for them to nail it as much as possible and not let their nerves get to them?

Speaker 2 (13:16):

So by contract you mean a production contract?

Speaker 6 (13:19):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (13:20):

Okay. And is this the first time that this person has ever produced a band in their life?

Speaker 6 (13:26):

No, it's the first time it's a band that's a value or merit.

Speaker 2 (13:29):

So everyone that they've worked on up until that point has zero value. Well, I'm asking you this for a reason because generally it doesn't work that way. Generally, it's a gradual build. If you listen, sorry to answer this for you, Jacob, but if you listen to the podcast, and I'm saying that because hundreds and hundreds of guests at this point, there are some who get thrown into the deep end and suddenly they're working with guns and roses and they've never worked with anyone that big before, and it's like this shock to the system, but more often than not, it's like one thing leads to the next, leads to the next. They've been doing it for a really, really long time and they're just doing their job and it just so happens that a band gets a band is bigger than the last band they had, or more often than not, also a band that they worked on that was local level then got bigger and then came back. So I think that just the way you're describing it sounds a lot more Hollywood than real life, first off, because I don't think that it generally goes from working with nothing but garbage, zero value shit to wow, suddenly I'm working with an important band or something that generally doesn't go like that. So I think that generally by the time that happens, you're ready for it. But what do you think, Jacob?

Speaker 3 (14:57):

I think that all bands are important because you can learn so much from bands even though they're not big name bands or whatever, but it's also if you don't treat every production as something important, I think you're doing yourself a disservice. Not only because, oh, maybe that band will become big eventually, but I mean one, there's supposed to be some joy in doing this and working with all levels. It's more about the band. But I also think that SAL says that I think it's something that gradually comes and for those who are thrown in the deep end, that hasn't really happened to me, but I know people who it has happened to and I think that they got the gig because they do have the right mindset and not hinder themselves or think in the wrong way. I think that you have to think about any production as something valuable.

Speaker 2 (15:59):

Yeah, they're not there by accident. They didn't get that gig by accident,

Speaker 3 (16:03):

But when it comes to how do you handle stage fright, but the stage is now your studio or someone else's studio, but how do you handle that nervousness? I don't really know. To me it's always been about focusing on the people and the thing we're doing and making it work no matter who it is. And of course, yeah, sure, of course it's been sometimes you work with someone who is either big or means something to you personally, but it is not a difference. And if you think like that, I think it will shine through and it won't be the best experience for everyone involved.

Speaker 2 (16:48):

Yeah, I just got to echo that because I've had lots of situations and still have situations where doing something that you were only dreaming about or working with somebody that you were didn't really think was going to happen, that kind of stuff, or you're on a tour that's just like, holy shit, how did this happen? When those kinds of things happen, the more you think about it in advance, the more of a disservice you're doing yourself because when it comes down to it just playing a show or you're just working with the musician or we're just making a course with somebody, it's the same thing that we do or that we've always done. Maybe the stage is a little bigger or maybe the artist has a little bit more success or something, but at the end of the day, you're just doing the same shit and you have to approach it that way. You can't treat it like it's some crazy thing or like Jacob said, it's going to shine through. Thanks,

Speaker 6 (17:45):

I really appreciate it. Thank you.

Speaker 2 (17:47):

Okay, so next up we got Joel Vitor.

Speaker 7 (17:51):

So I was wondering about your work with Diablo Swing Orchestra. Were you involved at all with the arrangement of the orchestral parts and did you guys have to change anything or take precautions to make low instruments and big chord in the braes to be able to fit with the metal parts?

Speaker 3 (18:09):

Lemme start with saying that if you haven't, those of you listening, if you haven't heard Diablo Wing orchestra, you have to check them out. They're crazy. Cool. That wasn't my production. It was done here and I was involved in different ways with recording in the engineering, but that was actually my friend Roberto Loggy, another Swedish producer here in Gothenburg, and neither of us were involved in the arrangements that was done by different people in the band handling the arrangements for horns and strings and all their advanced guest musicians. So I don't really have a good answer for that question. I'm sorry.

Speaker 7 (18:51):

That's okay. No problem. I do have some questions about the recording process of those instruments. I have no experience recording anything other than metal, and I was wondering how different it is to make up those instruments. How do you find the right tones if you have to double or over double a lot of stuff? Can you talk a little bit about these different things for us?

Speaker 2 (19:12):

Thank you, Joel.

Speaker 3 (19:13):

It's a very thick sound, and by that I mean it's not thick because you have two guitars that are super massive, but there are so many things going on and you have to take into consideration everything. We even had two different drum kits micd up here, and sometimes they do play together, but by the same drummer, you have to think about the sounds working together. How will you make the cello sound when there's a distorted guitar at the same time? But those acoustic instruments, I think the approach is that, and this goes for every time that, like I said, that time was together with Roberto and it was more his production than mine, but every time I do work with those instruments, you have to take into consideration that just like drums, but even more so because drums, you can tweak it and you use samples and you use room samples or you use reverb or whatever, but with those instruments like horns, strings, mallets, classical percussion, et cetera, choirs, what you capture is what you're going to use.

(20:19):

And if you overtreat those afterwards with whatever it is, eq, compression, whatever, it's going to start sounding weird and they're going to start losing their place in the mix and the sound. So you have to be really aware of how they sound already in the recording stage. I think that's very much the case with any instrument and I always try to make sure that the things recorded do work no matter if it's bass or guitar or drums or the instruments we're talking about now with Diablo swing, but you can't, it's way harder to save an instrument that is recorded like that because in order to capture that instrument, if we're talking for instance, trumpet or cello or viola or classical percussion, you have to mic it from some distance just like we talked about the base cap just now in order to make them sound like they should sound and do sound. So you have to be very, very aware of what you're capturing and is the mic angle the right? Is the mic choice, the right mic choice? How is the pre-amp setting, how is the EQ setting? And be very careful in another way. You can't go in and notch too much because it will take away the identity of that instrument and also make it disappear.

Speaker 2 (21:43):

Awesome. Great answer. Alright, up next, Mr. Kieran Giles.

Speaker 8 (21:49):

Hey, how are you doing? Jacob? Nice to meet you. Very nice

Speaker 3 (21:52):

To meet you. Thank you.

Speaker 8 (21:53):

I was looking through your podcast the other day actually, when you were on that before and there was some cool stuff you said about drums in that podcast, but I wanted to see if you could expand a little bit on what you think makes a drum mix really good, because the biggest sort of thing for me was realizing how important rooms were because as you said earlier, it doesn't sound like a drum if it's not in a room. So if you had any big realizations when you were mixing things, if you see any beginner mistakes that people make with their drum mixes, because I really do think that a great mix starts the drums.

Speaker 3 (22:28):

I agree. I think the most important thing, I mean, what's a great drum mix? I mean, I don't remember what I said in that podcast really. It was before the pandemic, so everything is just lost.

Speaker 2 (22:40):

It's like 2018 or something, right?

Speaker 3 (22:42):

That's crazy. Right? I think a good drum mix is something that serves the song and that is the most important thing of all. The second important thing is that, like I said before, that it's a sound that either the drummer feels that, oh yeah, that sounds like me, or yeah, it's a sound that I can identify with, meaning that is the sound I'm going for or want and that this song needs again. But if you take, there are so many great drum sounds that would never work in another production. You can't take the sound from a Led Zeppelin album and force it onto a metallic album, but they're both great drum sounds. You can't force a toto drum sound and force it on a tool album, but they're both great drum sounds. I think that a big mistake people do with drum mixes is not realizing frequency buildup in different mics.

(23:47):

I think it's important to give specific mics specific reasons to be there, or specific objectives. If I have a couple of room mics or a mono room mic, yeah, let's say that I have a mono room, I can two stereo room mics, how will they work together instead of just placing them and not thinking? I think it's very important to think about the finished drum mix already when recording so that you have some kind of vision for your reason to place the mics where you do or eq them in a certain way, and that translates to the mix even if you didn't record the drums. I think it's important to listen through the mics and see what they sound like and see what it is you want to bring out in a mic and realize how they work together because no drum mic in itself is going to sound that great, but together they will.

(24:47):

And you can't make everything sound like that goes for any mixing really. You can't make everything sound big and ballsy and wide. It all has to work together, and I think that that's, if I don't talk about recording, but actual mixing, I think that's a big mistake. Just focusing on each mic at a time and trying to make it sound good and not realizing how it works together with all the other room, all the other mics, and also realizing what do I want to base my sound on? Do I want to base it on the close mics or do I want to base it on the overheads and the close mics? If I have a couple of mics on the kick, do I want to use all of them? You don't have to just because you have all of them, that just means you have options. So having that vision after listening through the mics, if you didn't record them yourself and then realizing what do I want to bring out and how do they compliment each other in a good way to bring the mix forward instead of trying to make every mic sound great and hope that they just work together. That's not how mixing works. I think.

Speaker 2 (26:04):

Yeah, the idea of intentionality, I think that beginners don't really have much intentionality in their work because they don't know what they're doing. So there's a lot of randomness going on just hunting around trying to push frequencies just like fucking with knobs without much of a direction as opposed to doing everything for a reason. I'll say the other thing that beginners tend to fuck up really bad on drum mixes is phase all over the place. That's one of the big ones.

Speaker 3 (26:38):

Yeah, for sure. And also I think with phase, you can even do things with face if you experiment enough with face when you're learning things, you can learn how face actually can help you in certain ways, but I think just trying to make all the channels sound big and ballsy and just push that agenda on the tracks doesn't work and I see it happen all the time.

Speaker 2 (27:03):

Yeah, I agree. Thank you, Karen.

Speaker 3 (27:05):

Yeah, thank you.

Speaker 2 (27:06):

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(27:58):

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Speaker 4 (29:18):

I'm back.

Speaker 2 (29:19):

Welcome back.

Speaker 4 (29:20):

This might be a bit of a broad question, but I know a lot of people here might be tracking in home studios, so less than ideal rooms, and let's just kind of keep the focus for vocals. What are some things that you notice can be done wrong in a bedroom studio in terms of tracking vocals? And I'm asking you not because I think you're an expert in acoustics, but more you're an expert in capturing the sounds. So what's something that someone can do or what is a common issue that you find in bedroom studios in terms of tracking vocals and how can they correct it at the source or in the space?

Speaker 3 (29:56):

Don't lie down on the bed while tracking vocals.

Speaker 4 (29:59):

That's actually the

Speaker 3 (30:00):

Main one. Or it should be, I've seen it happen. It was more fun than it was good. I think that depending on the room, I mean, sure reflections are bad if you don't want reflections. So how do you stay away from reflections? I think that sometimes people see, and this goes for a lot of things when we're recording, sometimes people see something on a picture and they think, oh, that's how you do it. I'm going to do that too. And then again, they're enforcing something that doesn't work just because they have that mindset or they thought that this is going to work. They don't think about how does sound work. No one has to be an expert to realize certain things. For instance, what's the point in dampening the mic on the other end of the mic away from the vocalist when you have a reflective wall behind you when recording vocals, I see it done over and over and it just doesn't make sense. And placing the mic in a way that looks kind of sexy, but it doesn't work if you just think about it for a minute, sometimes it's the most weird solution that works if you spend some time moving around. But also thinking, what does the mic point at? What is the mic hearing? And just not what the camera is seeing. I think that's a big mistake people do.

Speaker 4 (31:38):

So you're saying kind of think not just about what the direction that the singer is facing, but also the direction that the microphone is facing?

Speaker 3 (31:46):

Yeah, because it's all about the microphone. It's not about, I mean, if the singer is in an awkward position, but it makes it sound 10 times better. Maybe there's a middle ground, but if they had to choose, what would you choose? What sounds best? Yeah, so that's the one. But thank you so much,

Speaker 2 (32:05):

Jacob. I think the point you brought up about people seeing pictures of things and then just trying to recreate them based off of a picture when they don't even know what it sounds like is really, really key. And it kind of also goes back to what we were talking about, well, what I was mentioning with Kieran before about intentionality. If you're going to treat a room for vocals, bedroom, so it's a makeshift treatment, do it with intention and with purpose. Don't just throw shit up there because you saw photos of somebody doing that. There should be a problem you're actually trying to solve and a result that you're actually after with everything that you're doing.

Speaker 3 (32:53):

Yeah, totally. And also buying, buying acoustic treatment and doing something that you saw in a photo. I mean, sometimes people do it because they saw a photo of someone else doing it just as badly, but he did it, but it didn't work then either.

Speaker 2 (33:11):

Yeah, you can't hear the photo. Yeah,

Speaker 3 (33:13):

It's the same with overheads. I think it is a very common thing that people just place overheads in a very sexy way based on how they saw it in a photo or maybe even a sales photo or advertisement for mics. Of course, they're going to place it nicely, but that's not how you, if I would set up a drum kit in the most good looking way and not play on it, it wouldn't look like it would be set up if I would play on it. Same goes for mics or acoustic treatments or mic placement or where you stand in your bedroom or whatever. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (33:48):

If you think about the most badass death metal drum sets set up with 8 million things on it and everything's super close together and it just looks like a beast. That's not going to be the best sounding thing to record.

Speaker 3 (34:02):

No.

Speaker 2 (34:02):

As opposed to a drum set that's got a lot fewer things on it that are spread out super wide apart and with lots of space between them. What's photogenic is not necessarily what sounds best.

Speaker 3 (34:14):

I mean, it even goes for that classic joking about vocalists holding the mic in a way that looks cool, but it makes the sound unworkable. And it's every live technician's nightmare basically because they're cupping the mic. Everyone knows that meme, everyone's seen it, and then everyone goes home and does the same mistake, but with other instruments.

Speaker 2 (34:37):

Yep, absolutely. Okay, next up, we've got Toby up next. Welcome back.

Speaker 5 (34:44):

I've never actually tried tuning drums, and I know that's obviously something that you, Jacob have been really, really good at. If I wanted to learn drums, obviously we've got the fast tracks, which teach us how to do it, but I want to actually physically practice. What would you recommend as being the first shell to pick up? Would you recommend getting a kick, a snare or a Tom?

Speaker 3 (35:05):

Well, given that you are in a space where you can make a lot of sound, I would go with the snare. It's the loudest thing in a drum mix usually, but it's also, it's the thing that is played with the most dynamics. You have ghost notes and you have buildups, and it's, in a way, Tom's kind of compressed themselves in a way. But I think snare is so versatile and important, and especially since there are so many ways to make a snare sound like a snare, and it's still a good snare, is it going to be short? Is it going to be ringy? Is it going to be low? Is it going to be high? Is it going to be short? But with reverb on it, is it going to be short without reverb on it? Is it going to be long ringy with or without reverb? All those things matter so much. I would definitely start with a snare drum.

Speaker 5 (36:00):

Cool. And just a very quick follow up question, do you think it's just learning to tune on? Do you think it matters whether you buy a cheap snare or do you think it'd be better to go for a mid-level snare?

Speaker 3 (36:10):

I would go for a good drum head. Most of all, a super expensive snare. With a bad drum head, it doesn't matter. But if it's a decent snare, and by decent, I mean it can be a beginner snare. Like today, snare drums or drums in general are so well manufactured compared to drums 30 years ago and even before that. And they all stay in shape and they're all round and they all have nice bearing edges. So I think any decent snare will actually do, because most of that ring that you're trying to work with comes from the head. And this is from someone who owns 35 snares here in the studio. So of course, I mean wouldn't have them if it didn't mattered. But I think that the learning, the tuning, it's about finding a snare that just does the job, and then you learn tuning on that. And then after that you can apply that on other snares and realize what the difference is and how their tuning ranges vary and what you can bring out of a certain snare drum, et cetera, et cetera. But the whole learning to tune thing is just about finding a decent drum and do the work.

(37:31):

You just keep doing it.

Speaker 2 (37:32):

Thanks, Toby. Okay, next up we have got Mr. John Maciel.

Speaker 9 (37:39):

How's it going, Jacob? How's it going? Good,

Speaker 3 (37:42):

How are you?

Speaker 9 (37:42):

Doing well, doing well. It's Tuesday, so it's a good day. Taco Tuesday. All right. So I got a two-parter question for you, Jacob. And I want to preface this question with the scope of a lot of the students. And you mentioned how you were tracking the drone vol and you knew the drones were going to go off to someone else to mix, which ended up being a Jacob. And it sounds like you have experience in that realm of tracking and then knowing that that product is going to go to someone else for mixing, et cetera. And some of our students don't have that type of experience or don't know what exactly that type of relationship is in building that with producers. So my first question is, when working with new mixers or producers in the engineer's seat, what are the types of conversation that you have with not only the producer, the band, and the potential mixer to help solidify the vision as an engineer? To keep your sanity and make sure that eight voices turns into one cohesive vision at the tracking stage. And then the second part to that question is, when working with repeat mixers, how many times does it take working with them until you have a flow where you already know their expectations? So when you call 'em to say, Hey, this is kind of what I'm thinking for this record, what do you think? And they're just like, yeah, sounds great. Let's go for it.

Speaker 3 (38:58):

Well, I guess let's start with the first part. If it's someone I worked with before, it's easy of course, but let's say it's someone new and I haven't worked with them and maybe I haven't even sometimes heard things they've done. That doesn't matter. They're bad mixers. It just means that I haven't worked with them before. But usually there's a reason why the band wants that person to mix, and there's a reason why they want me to produce certain parts of it. Sometimes it's a co-production, like me and Jacob have done it, me and Roberto have done it, other people have done it with too. And even then, if it's a co-production, which is even more things happening, it always comes back to the song, the vision for the song, the vision for the music, and people having to realize that they have to put their egos aside.

(39:58):

I don't really feel that the people I work with when it comes to other producers and mixers and other people in the production team have those kind of egos where that's ever a problem. I've never really experienced it so far. And if there is an issue and I have to be the one to collect everyone basically, and it doesn't have to do with ego sometimes it's just either a misunderstanding or people not thinking enough about what person has what role. You just sit down and talk it out. Like everything, like every relationship, basically, you just have the guts to sit down and have that talk and just talk it out and see where the problem is. Or if there is a problem. Usually there's not. Usually when I'm approached, I want to know what is my role? Do you want me to produce? Do you want me to engineer? Do you want me to do something in between? Do I work with a band on the production side? Do I work with this other person on the production side who's going to mix it? Then I talk with that person, what do you want? I think it all comes down to just talking. And when that happens, there's never any problem really. I'm sorry if that's a boring answer.

Speaker 2 (41:21):

No, but it's the truth. It's amazing how many problems happened because people are just unwilling to talk about things. His second part was how many times do you need to work with someone like a mixer or something to where you're just on the same page from the very beginning?

Speaker 3 (41:40):

Maybe it's that person that, but maybe it's sometimes the band, but sometimes it's just instant, instant love. I really don't have a good answer for that question.

Speaker 2 (41:50):

I mean, yeah, it's going to be different with everybody.

Speaker 3 (41:53):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (41:53):

Alright, next up. Everyone's favorite, Robin Je.

Speaker 10 (41:58):

Well, I have kind of maybe a big question regarding processing. On the way in when you record drums, as we've talked about before today, when sending drums to other mixes, for example, like Jacob, do you do different processing for those guys? If you, for example, know that Jacob likes his kick drums a little bit brighter? Do you brighten the kick drum up on the way in, or do you process the drums harder? If you know that the end goal of the recording is that the drums needs to sound more natural so people like the mixer himself is not going to do much processing within the mix.

Speaker 3 (42:37):

Jacob Hanson, who I think is an amazing everything person, mixer, hair model

Speaker 2 (42:45):

Specimen.

Speaker 3 (42:45):

Yeah, right. He's giving me one of the biggest compliments of my career. I think he once said that I love mixing your stuff. You just have to turn the faders up and start mixing and not starting to notch things or EQ things just to get it in a place where I can start mixing. And I think that's my goal when I record, no matter who it is mixing, I always want to serve the song and serve the band and serve the person. Mixing. I love working with people and I want that person to just like that, raise the faders and go, oh, yeah, I see where this is going. I think this, I can see the kind of vision happening here. So in one way I do in another way, I mean, of course if I'm the one mixing, I may be a little bolder on the way in, and if it's another way other person mixing, maybe I'll back it off a bit and play it more safely.

(43:43):

But at the same time, not only do I want to serve that person with tracks that are something that is ready to mix straight away, but also serving the song and serving the band's sound or the sound we have decided that we want. So I always try to shape that in a way that I think works. But of course, I have to think about the person mixing. I can't just think about what I want. I also have to think about all these different parts of a production, me, the song, the band, the other person mixing, et cetera.

Speaker 10 (44:22):

Yeah. So that's why if it's, for example, a more raw recording, it's necessary.

Speaker 3 (44:28):

Yeah. But sometimes if it's a raw recording, I even have to think about that more because then I really have to bring out the sound we want instead of that person having to guess what the vision is. But if it's going to be a super process sound, it's more about, it's still the same work progress, but you can play it safer because some things are going to happen in the mix. That doesn't happen when it's a raw recording. But even for someone like Buster Olm, when he did the drums here, the Vard drums, it's very much a thought process between the two of us because he played the drums, but he's also the guy who's going to mix them or was going to mix them. They're done now and then all those decisions had to go in. He had to wear two different hats together with me in that process, which worked out pretty freaking good.

Speaker 2 (45:27):

Awesome. Thanks, Robin. Alright, so Joe s Scaletta, you're up.

Speaker 4 (45:30):

I wanted to take your answer to Toby's question and kind of expand on it a little bit further. Where Toby said, should I get a cheap drum or a mid-tier drum? And you said, get a good drum head, assuming rock and metal, what are your go-to drum heads, go-to symbols, go to guitar strings and go to bass strings?

Speaker 3 (45:48):

Okay. My go-to snare head is actually the Remo Cs dot, which is basically a coated ambassador with a dampening, an extra layer of dampening ring in the middle, in the center of the head on the underside. And I use that extensively. It's the same head that's used on the Vola recordings. It adds some barky to the drum. It is weird that it makes that big of a difference, but it really does. But at the same time, it's got all those nice overtones that you want in an ambassador that are out in the outer part of the drumhead towards the rim. But for resonant heads on Toms for instance, I almost always use either coded or clear ambassadors. But when it comes to batter heads, I think there's, and this is going to be a long answer or expanded answer, I think that there are, again, we're back to this thing that looks good or that you see in a commercial or when there's a, I mean, the drum head manufacturers want to sell drum heads, they want the drums to sound good in a rehearsal studio.

(47:02):

The Powerstroke three for bass drum always sounds great live or in a rehearsal studio. But in a studio, I almost never use it because I don't think it's sounds that good because it's too pre-processed. That dampening ring just makes it even, no matter how you tune it, it just stays rigid. And I can't really work with it or dampen it the way I want to. And the same goes for Tom Heads. One of my favorite Tom heads is the clear ambassador, but when you buy drum heads, every salesman or whatever is going to say that, oh, that's for jazz. But not it's, I've done some very angry and aggressive sounding metal recordings with clear ambassadors on the Toms because it's got so much projection and so much volume compared to, for instance, emperors or pins stripes. But they do wear out quicker. But that's not an issue sometimes. So I don't really have any go-tos for Toms. It can be emperors, it can be ambassadors coated or clear. It can be pins stripes if you want that low study, shorter sound or focus sound without any overtones. And same goes for bass drum. I think it's more about what sound you're going for and having that vision before you do it and deciding based on what you want and not what you have.

Speaker 4 (48:37):

And what about guitar strings or bass strings?

Speaker 3 (48:39):

The new ones? The fresh ones, I don't know. Usually I don't have that same opinions about it's, it's more about no guitar player wants to change string model anyway. And it goes so much together with how they're playing feels like, or how they think that their guitar sounds like and how he feels to play and how the amp responds. But if they're new, I'm happy and not crap.

Speaker 2 (49:16):

It's kind of what makes all the difference. Thank you, Joe. I feel like with bass strings, it makes a much bigger difference than guitar strings. I will say that.

Speaker 3 (49:23):

Oh yeah. It's a huge difference. And sometimes you have to find that right level of, do you want them brand new or should I play for a week or a day? And usually it's three hour new is usually a good one for me, but it depends on the bass player. Sometimes it's brand new strings that are required. And that also means changing the strings

Speaker 2 (49:50):

Every two hours

Speaker 3 (49:51):

In between songs, depending on the bass and the sound you're looking for, basically. But I mean, old strings is great for certain styles, but not metal at all.

Speaker 2 (50:04):

Yeah, absolutely not. Alright, well Jacob, thank you very much. Since we are out of time, I want to thank you for taking the time to hang out with us and thank everybody in the crowd for hanging out with us.

Speaker 3 (50:16):

Thank you. It's been my pleasure. I hope everyone had fun with a Vola tracks and looking forward to Jacob's Mix. I mean, Jacob is a fantastic mixer, but I think he killed it on this bowl album for sure.

Speaker 2 (50:30):

When does he not kill it?

Speaker 3 (50:32):

I know. It's kind of annoying. Really?

Speaker 2 (50:34):

It's crazy. Alright dude, have a good one. Thank you.

Speaker 3 (50:36):

Thank you.

Speaker 2 (50:37):

Alright then another URM podcast episode in the bag. Please remember to share our episodes with your friends as well as post some to your Facebook and Instagram or any social media you use. Please tag me at al Levi URM audio at URM Academy. And of course tag our guests as well. I mean, they really do appreciate it. In addition, do you have any questions for me about anything? Email them to me at al at URM Academy. That's EYAL at urm dot ACA DMY. And use the subject line Answer me Al. Alright then. Till next time, happy mixing.

Speaker 1 (51:17):

You've been listening to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast. To ask us questions, make suggestions and interact, visit URM Academy and press the podcast link today.