GEORGE LEVER: The Producer Mindset, Why the Market Isn’t Saturated, Learning From Mistakes

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast, and now your host, Eyal Levi. Welcome to the URM podcast. Thank you so much for being here. It's crazy to think that we are now on our seventh year. Don't ask me how that all just flew by, but it did. Man. Time moves fast and it's only because of you, the listeners, if you'd like us to stick around another seven years and there's a few simple things you can do that would really, really help us out, I would endlessly appreciate if you would, number one, share our episodes with your friends. Number two, post our episodes on your Facebook and Instagram and tag me at al Levi URM audio and at URM Academy and of course our guest. And number three, leave us reviews and five star reviews wherever you can. We especially love iTunes reviews. Once again, thank you for all the years and years of loyalty.

(00:01:01):

I just want you to know that we will never charge you for this podcast, and I will always work as hard as possible to improve the episodes in every single way. All we ask in return is a share a post and tag us. Oh, and one last thing. Do you have a question you would like me to answer on an episode? I don't mean for a guest. I mean for me, it can be about anything. Email it to [email protected]. That's EYAL at m dot A-C-D-E-M-Y. There's no.com on that. It's exactly the way I spelled it. And use the subject line Answer me Eyal. Alright, let's get on with it. Hello everybody. Welcome to the URM Podcast. My guest today is George Lever, who is coming back to the URM Podcast. He previously did episode number 2 53 and it's a great one. You really should check it out. George is a powerhouse of a producer and a mixer, and his client list includes bands such as Loath, sleep Token, woven War, and a bunch of others. And you might know him also as a frequent contributor to URM. He's going to nail the mix. Like I said, he was on the podcast. He does a ton of YouTube content for us, lots of mix rescues. He's a big, big part of our community and just a insightful, awesome dude. I present you George Lever. Welcome back to the URM podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:02:32):

Cheers, man. What I want to say is like, what the fuck is up? Let's go.

Speaker 1 (00:02:35):

Yeah, let's do this. Alright. You were saying in the pre-interview that you're not so sure that you can really teach ambition or grind. What do you mean?

Speaker 2 (00:02:44):

I guess that extrapolates from, I've wanted to, so we've talked about building a team, which is why I felt really at home working alongside you and the rest at URM because everyone knows what the fuck they're doing doing and how shit works and you,

Speaker 1 (00:03:01):

And they're all killers,

Speaker 2 (00:03:02):

Right? And stuff happens and I found that experience of witnessing how teamwork works, really, I got jealous, just no bullshit. I got jealous that I couldn't have more people around me. Just that didn't suck. And so I went through the process of entertaining the idea of working a with someone or teaching someone everything that I knew so that if I wanted the option of having an assistant or someone that could do small stuff like session setups. I don't need someone doing everything for me, but it's more like download these album files and set it up for me and we'll make coffee and I'll teach you stuff and I'll show you how I do things. And just someone to hang out that doesn't suck with, suck with no someone to hang out with that doesn't suck.

Speaker 1 (00:03:54):

Could go any which way.

Speaker 2 (00:03:56):

Oh, just

Speaker 1 (00:03:57):

Who let the listener's imagination run wild?

Speaker 2 (00:04:01):

No, I can't say all the stuff that's in my head for, okay. I got really stunned at the fact that if you go up to someone that goes, I'm into audio, or I have an interest in this and I'm trying to grind or hustle and find my way up the ladderal, whatever it is that people say when they're starting off, I've never said that in my life. If I put an opportunity in front of someone and don't explain it to them, literally go, I'm trying to give you money so that you can work with me or I'm trying to give you experience. They don't get the hint. The example being is that I'd have drum sessions coming up and for me, having someone there so that I can have someone that's in the live room moving stuff whilst I'm listening is really useful because I can be like, okay, this mic needs to move however far to the left. And having someone in the room that can hear me say that do it at the same time. It's like having a person that's a dyna mount, but for mics and drums and stuff, it took six different people before someone turned up and was just like, I'm ready to learn. I tried explaining it in layman's terms. No one seemed to be motivated to learn. It seemed like they wanted the five tips, how to not be a wet wipe,

Speaker 1 (00:05:10):

Five tips to being my competition, five tips to taking over my studio.

Speaker 2 (00:05:16):

And I don't want competition, someone that's going to try and be a mix artist or whatever. I want someone that through them not knowing everything I can learn from as well, if you see what I mean. Because there's been plenty of times in the last 12 months where I've worked with someone that did everything the wrong way round, completely. Obviously worked in Reaper, sorry. But I was there going like, oh shit, by you getting it wrong, I now know you've made a sound that I have not heard before. So now I'm going to reverse engineer how you fucked it up into something good and then I'm going to have that skill.

Speaker 1 (00:05:51):

But something though that sticks out to me about what you just said, it took just going through six different people to find someone who is even willing to work in the first place. That is, and I've said this before, but yet again, this is more evidence that I'm right. There is very little competition out there in the world of audio. This idea that it's oversaturated is bullshit. It's oversaturated with consumer level people, which is great as far as people actually wanting to be pro and serious about it. There's not that many.

Speaker 2 (00:06:25):

No, I was talking about the effect Joey had on the US market back when he started, and I was talking about this with someone that wasn't there for when it happened because it was quite an abnormal thing to happen for someone to stake their claim, build a whole new sub genre, have a label back them in doing that, and then have this five to 10 year period where realistically if you had that aspiration for that sound, it was him. That's never happened in the uk. I've never seen that happen in Europe. The fact that he could do it before consumer level audio existed, our YouTube audio world, whatever existed, I'm pretty certain it won't ever happen again. Not

Speaker 1 (00:07:07):

Like that.

Speaker 2 (00:07:08):

No, and it's interesting, even if you don't like the genre and even if you don't like Joey, it's an interesting thing that happened to study and understand how it happened.

Speaker 1 (00:07:20):

That's one of the reasons I chose him as a business partner.

Speaker 2 (00:07:23):

Sure. I think that makes complete sense.

Speaker 1 (00:07:25):

Without even knowing him, I pursued him and I don't think I liked him. I didn't know him, but he had a reputation and we were in direct competition to him too. So I didn't have great opinions, but I still approached him and I was like, that guy would be the guy to do this with nobody else who would be right because of the impact that he's had.

Speaker 2 (00:07:49):

Sure. Well, I think that's subtopic, isn't it? About at what point in business or a business relationship do you have to the person that you work with? You don't have to be friends with him.

Speaker 1 (00:07:59):

I do like him now let me just say he turned out to be a cool guy, but I approached him anyways without knowing him. Even with whatever preconceived notions I had, I still went for it just because the impact that he had, the way that I saw it was this home studio thing, this consumer level audio, this bedroom thing is going to explode. There's no way around it. I've been seeing it going in this direction for years and years and years in real studios. Joey tapped in before anybody, he should be on this team.

Speaker 2 (00:08:38):

So talking about the saturation of the market or audio in general, when you look at what Joey managed to do at a point where realistically with the old school way of approaching things where you had to have a studio, it was kind of seen that you had to have a desk, you had to have a separate live room, you had to have Neuman Mike's, you had to do it this way. He managed to encourage the market to accept an adaptation of how music was made, and the likelihood is that what happened then is probably going to happen again in a completely different way from this point forwards. We dunno what that looks like yet because the evolution hasn't happened, so we can't really predict it the same way. It wasn't predictable back then, but if someone is saying the market is saturated, they really need to look at how history was, how things were before, how they are now. So I think there's equal opportunity for everyone at this moment in time realistically to find their place. It's not about saturation, it's about actually is what you do valuable? Is it important? Does it matter?

Speaker 1 (00:09:40):

Yeah. Are you willing to do what it takes to make what you do matter?

Speaker 2 (00:09:45):

Who was it or where does that information come from with the, there's no room for me in this industry who's saying that?

Speaker 1 (00:09:52):

Lots of people I've been hearing for a really long time, and people say this about all kinds of creative industries, but I've heard it a lot about recording, don't move to la, it's super saturated. Don't move to Nashville. It's super saturated. Don't try to become a high level engineer. It's super saturated. Don't try to work for someone like Will Putney. It's impossible. Don't try to work under a high level producer. It's impossible. All these kinds of ideas that people have because there's this weird notion out there and I'm not sure where it started or how it started, but I know that it's out there because I deal with people who believe this. They just think that there's so much competition that it's just pointless to even try. But out of all the people who are recording, the people who even have the motivation to work are a tiny group of people out of the people who have a motivation to work, people who have some aptitude towards this, that's an even smaller group of people. Out of the people who are willing to work and the people who have an aptitude for this, people who have some sort of people skills to go with it, even smaller group and then aptitude, willingness to work, people skills and then just timing wise, not just the ability to work, but the ability to actually go without making money for six months or move to another city. Those things,

Speaker 3 (00:11:24):

That's

Speaker 1 (00:11:24):

An even smaller group. So those are four pretty big filters for actually landing something in this line of work. There's very few people left on the other side of those four filters and I really do think you kind of need to pass through all four of them

Speaker 2 (00:11:43):

Probably. Right? I think it would be pretty obvious if you didn't have to pass through all of those stages to get to a certain, I'm just going to say rung on the ladder. I think it's very easy to get to that first stage, which is setting up having gear and then someone walking through the door.

Speaker 1 (00:11:58):

So willingness to work.

Speaker 2 (00:12:00):

So I think that stage is where the most, if there's going to be saturation, it's going to be that someone thinking, because I have this I can, and then not taking into consideration it's the sort of person that sets up any type of business in a new market that they don't understand completely. And then thinking that on the outside it looks easy,

Speaker 1 (00:12:19):

But there's also a lot of people who have the aptitude but don't have the others. So for instance, a lot of people have the aptitude but not have the work drive or the people skills. Some people will just be cool but not have the work drive or the aptitude or some people will have the people skills and the aptitude but are fucking lazy. It's just to have all four of those coexisting, that's rare as shit. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:12:46):

It's possible to learn all of them, but it comes down to the individual's acceptance of,

Speaker 1 (00:12:53):

I don't think it's possible to learn two of them.

Speaker 2 (00:12:54):

You don't?

Speaker 1 (00:12:55):

No, I don't think it's possible to learn grind

(00:12:59):

Unless if you go into the military or something, if you go into the military and you have grind pummeled into you for months and months and months on end and you're basically torn down and built back up as a new person, I do believe that people can go into the military as losers and come out as winners who know how to get shit done. But in normal life where you're left to your own devices, I don't think that that shit is very learnable or teachable and aptitude. I don't think you can teach aptitude either. You can teach skills, but the aptitude that shit's pre-baked.

Speaker 2 (00:13:36):

See, you touched upon something with the military, which I have a very high level of respect for. I don't think is actually very common for someone that's British to care about how the military works. I know it can make up a country's personality in other places, but I think in the UK it's a bit 50 50. It's the same way with how a lot of the UK is split with politics. But for me, I respect that specific type of comfortability with suffering, knowing you're going to suffer to an extent

Speaker 1 (00:14:08):

That

Speaker 2 (00:14:08):

No one else is going to get to. No one other than you is going to understand what it's going to be like to live off eating lizards and drinking your own piss. No one willingly walks towards it. I mean even bare grills fakes it and there is a state of mind that they must end up at that just, it doesn't fucking matter. You are not going to die from this. Just carry on. And that's a state of mind that I can't imagine. So every time I meet someone that has been in the military, I end up not grilling them, but understanding that the things that they do end up sharing or telling you about is just the smallest window into how it actually feels or what actually ends up going on. I just find it,

Speaker 1 (00:14:48):

It's fascinating.

Speaker 2 (00:14:49):

Yeah, it is.

Speaker 1 (00:14:49):

I think that they're closed off to talking to a lot of people because a lot of people, their first question is what's it like to kill people? Most people in the military don't kill anybody.

Speaker 2 (00:14:58):

No.

Speaker 1 (00:14:59):

They don't like getting asked questions like that. What fascinates me about people who have been in the military are in the military is what you just said, their ability to willingly suffer to advance to the next level. Doesn't matter why they did it, they did it because they wanted to go to college. They did it. They were patriotic, they did it. They had no other option. I don't care. The point is they still put themselves in a really shitty situation

Speaker 2 (00:15:30):

And the only way that I suppose I will ever get close to simulating it is through choosing to exercise in a way that is horrible, but it's still nowhere near and I still give up on that stuff. I still mentally choose to try and quit even though it's not really that bad.

Speaker 1 (00:15:49):

I want to hear something interesting though. Of course. So last year when I was doing 75 hard, I was doing it with a friend of mine who's in the army.

Speaker 2 (00:15:59):

Okay,

Speaker 1 (00:15:59):

Shout out Gabe. Sorry,

Speaker 2 (00:16:01):

Is Gabe in the army?

Speaker 1 (00:16:02):

Gabe Carlo,

Speaker 2 (00:16:04):

Yeah. Is he in the army?

Speaker 1 (00:16:05):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:16:05):

Oh, that's sick. Nice one. Gabe

Speaker 1 (00:16:07):

Career military and he's been in for 10 years.

Speaker 2 (00:16:10):

Amazing.

Speaker 1 (00:16:11):

He also does audio as a side thing and he has a family

Speaker 2 (00:16:15):

Busy

Speaker 1 (00:16:15):

Guy. But he told me actually that he thought that 75 hard was harder than basic. And I thought that that's nuts. How could that possibly be? And he said, well, because in the military they make you do it. You're in a group of people so you can just go with the flow. There's no choice. You can't not feel like running and then just not run. The consequences are horrific. If you start doing that when you're by yourself, you can talk yourself out of doing things.

Speaker 2 (00:16:48):

Yeah, I know that I'm familiar with it.

Speaker 1 (00:16:51):

So am I.

Speaker 2 (00:16:51):

Every single day if I'm working out, you get to that, what is it, 45 minute hour mark in your brains there going It's probably enough now. Do you want a second breakfast? Yeah, it's a probably really good idea to have another breakfast. No, no, let's stop. Let's stop early. You've done really good. I hate that side of my personality and that side of my brain. It's okay to stop. You can stop, you suck and then it doesn't win once, but that was because I couldn't move my legs, but that was about it.

Speaker 1 (00:17:19):

I think that's definitely a fair response. Couldn't move your legs. I think it's fair to stop.

Speaker 2 (00:17:24):

I picked up a new personal trainer at the beginning of this year because up until for the last three years I've been self programming and I picked someone specifically that trains military. I feel like a lot of personal trainers are there to be a parental guide through exercise or you looking after yourself. And I didn't want that. I wanted someone to tell me that stopping wasn't an option where there was responsibility in order to complete the task type thing. And since then it's been dreadful. I've hated it, but I've also loved it. But it's been the hardest, most horrible stuff that I've done and it'll be like a sequence of exercises and at the bottom of the list it'll say, do this five times no rests. I need to show you because it's one of those things where it's like a hundred burpees, 200 deadlifts, and then it'll be like repeat five times off you go full time. I was like, great, this is going to suck.

Speaker 1 (00:18:19):

And did it.

Speaker 2 (00:18:19):

Yeah, I fucking hated it. I'm never doing it again, but I'll probably do it next week.

Speaker 1 (00:18:24):

So that's the thing, you're still putting yourself through suffering willingly. That's kind of the big difference when people are willing to work, that says to me that they are willing to put themselves into suffering kind of the whatever it takes mentality and dude, that's just rare. That's all it is. That voice that you were talking about, the we can just stop now voice. That's good enough voice. I actually think everybody has that. I don't think that that's just your personality. That's a very, very normal natural thing to want to stop doing hard things. And I'm just saying this because I listen to people like Jocko or David Goggins or I have lots of friends that are fucking crazy and they all say that they have that voice. Joe Rogan calls it the bitch voice. All these people that are in immaculate shape who are crazy about it all say the same thing. They don't want to do it.

Speaker 2 (00:19:24):

Well, I also think that the alternative is worse, isn't it? I hate who I am if I've not exercised in some way for a while and my physical appearance won't change, I don't really care about that. It's the mentality side of it where I guess it is some sort of low form depression, but I get so used to the adrenaline and the endorphins and the release and the success from finishing something that you didn't think you could do that after. I dunno. If I go away from home and I'm not exercising or able to walk, I tend to do over 10 kilometers a day of walking on average. And if I don't do that at the bare minimum, my internal monologue changes tone completely and I hate that more than the suffering. I hate that more than the suffering completely.

Speaker 1 (00:20:12):

Yeah. So how do you handle that

Speaker 2 (00:20:14):

Exercise? Just

Speaker 1 (00:20:15):

Do it anyways.

Speaker 2 (00:20:16):

Yeah, it's not, I haven't got an alternative yet, which makes me think that the dependency on exercise, although it's healthy, is actually unhealthy because if that's determining my happiness or being on an even keel, I don't think that's a healthy relationship to have with it because it's almost like a drug addiction when it gets to that state. If you hate who you are without it or like a dependency, when someone gets dependent on caffeine, it's not healthy to be all or nothing. It's healthy to be in control and understand how you control it.

Speaker 1 (00:20:46):

So how do you control it?

Speaker 2 (00:20:48):

I haven't figured it out yet.

Speaker 1 (00:20:49):

I guess it's a project.

Speaker 2 (00:20:50):

Yeah, I know that the tick over is as long as I do this amount of walking per day, I'm fine, but that amount of walking takes about two or three hours to do so then I have to decide and then that either comes out of work or relationship time or whatever or it's workout. So there has to be a better way. And when the gyms were closed before I bought the equipment for home as well, when we were in the first beautiful lockdown, the only other way that I got around it was doing yoga. So that was something that I had found worked in a very similar way because I fucking sucked at it. You'd think that just using yourself and holding a certain shape or stretching in a certain way would be easy because we move every day.

Speaker 1 (00:21:32):

No, it sucks.

Speaker 2 (00:21:33):

No, it's dreadful and you've got someone on TV that also sucks. So you're getting angry whilst you're doing it and they're talking to you in a really particular way. So you're getting even angrier and then you've got to stay in this position that all you want to do is fart or throw up, but at the end of it because it's something difficult and something you didn't really enjoy at the end of it, it's alright, I can tolerate doing today a bit more. So yoga was a nice get around for it, but I don't think it's the answer yet. The next option will probably be the thing that helps find an even keel overall, irrespective of the medication.

Speaker 1 (00:22:08):

Do you feel like the ability to just do it is the same thing that has allowed you to get better at audio, get better at video, do the things that you do at the level that you do them at. Same voice that tells the evil voice to shut the fuck up and you just keep going.

Speaker 2 (00:22:29):

Interestingly with audio or with video, so something that's creative, I don't have that internal monologue of stop that hasn't existed of this is enough or you can stop now, you've gone far enough. What I do have is the tendency to procrastinate or did have and when I realized that to choose to procrastinate is still spending energy because you're making the thing take longer by not doing it. I realized that procrastination doesn't make it isn't any better. It's still worse. You're just deciding that you want it to take longer when you decide to procrastinate. So it's just a lot easier to stop getting distracted on social media or anything and just get on with it. But typically with audio and video, I don't have that in a monologue of just stop. It's not really been a choice thing.

Speaker 1 (00:23:14):

That's interesting. I have the just stop voice with every single thing in my fucking life.

Speaker 2 (00:23:19):

Really?

Speaker 1 (00:23:20):

Yeah. Oh yeah. Always have.

Speaker 2 (00:23:22):

Okay. I think that's interesting.

Speaker 1 (00:23:23):

It's a demon dude.

Speaker 2 (00:23:24):

Yeah, no, I bet that I can empathize with that's fucking gross.

Speaker 1 (00:23:28):

Yeah, it sucks. I think a lot of times when people say, when successful people say that they're lazy, I think they're being completely serious and so people on the outside don't understand it, but successful lazy people their entire life is a battlefield mentally because you're fighting your nature the whole time. So there's very little on earth that isn't like if I'm doing one thing, I want to stop doing that thing.

Speaker 3 (00:23:56):

If

Speaker 1 (00:23:57):

I'm doing the thing that I stopped for, then it's like, well, I need to be doing this other thing. I need to stop this thing I'm doing. I always want to stop everything I'm doing and it's always a struggle and I always need to work myself up into doing things.

Speaker 2 (00:24:09):

Yeah, I can completely relate to that. Always. All I've been doing for the last week, I haven't done any music. I've just been trying to get my studio into shape for the next thing that we do for URM and everything that comes thereafter with regards to video and I got to sanding and my brain was like, you could just put it all back together and not do it. I was like, this is day one, we're at day one and you are being an asshole and you want to stop. And then we got to day two. So we did the first coat of paint of the studio and then my brain was like, one coat is fine. I said, it's not fine, you have to do three. No, we can stop at one. I need to do three coats of paint. Will you please just fuck off? Yeah. Every single day it's like, okay. So I can relate to that. I just thought it was laziness, but

Speaker 1 (00:24:54):

It is laziness. It's this a real strong drive to do nothing or to do less.

Speaker 2 (00:25:01):

Yeah, I guess that's why my ultimate goal is to garner enough success and income so that I can just sit down and watch the world for the rest of my life.

Speaker 1 (00:25:10):

You say that,

Speaker 2 (00:25:11):

I know it won't fucking happen, but that's the dream. Go sit in the woods and just watch the rest of the world and then it's done

Speaker 1 (00:25:17):

For two days and then you'll be ready to work again. So alright, so the coat of paint thing,

Speaker 3 (00:25:24):

That's

Speaker 1 (00:25:25):

A really good example actually because I've been to a lot of studios that were run by people who don't have that block when they're being creative, but they do about everything else and they didn't finish those coats of paint, so they do good work, but you can tell that their place just, they started with a good idea and just didn't follow through because that voice got loud. And that's very, very common. People who don't have that block when they're being creative, but they do about every single other thing else. Now I've noticed that the people who don't have that block when they're creative and they fight that voice with everything else tend to do real well or people who are creative who do have that block when they're being creative, who just fight it, they do real well too. Point is fighting it,

Speaker 2 (00:26:16):

Right? Because the way that I do it is quite literally just head into the wall and just get on with it or no, it is just run straight face first into the wall and don't give myself the opportunity for my brain to catch up and just get on with it. But finding what your mechanism for defeating that block is. Once you get to that, it's not a trick, it's something else, but I don't have a word for it, but when you get that tool and you know that you can turn that on or off when you want to, that's a real asset and I'm thankful that I have my method even though it's not graceful, it's not elegant, it's just run at the wall, get it done. Bethany calls it raw power, George. So I'm just, when we moved house and I'm there painting the house, it's not elegant. It's just get all the fucking shit in the house, paint all the fucking stuff in the house and I'm probably breaking as much stuff as I'm fixing, but it's just getting it done and then I'll tidy up afterwards.

Speaker 1 (00:27:13):

So it's just fucking all out go.

Speaker 2 (00:27:15):

Yeah, it's just stop thinking, just do it. Yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:27:18):

I like that thought. So I have thought for many years now that at least my formula is 10% planning, 90% execution, just enough planning to have the right direction, but nothing happens without relentless and overwhelming execution. I think a lot of people get stuck in the planning how to do things part talking about how things will be, what we're going to do. You can't progress without just fucking doing things and breaking them then fixing them and reassessing. For instance, we're working on a major riff hard site upgrade right now

(00:28:00):

And figuring out how certain things are going to be displayed is very complicated. It's very, very complicated because of what we're about to do. We have planned out several different versions on paper and spreadsheets with the storyboards and all that, but for all the time we spent on doing that, the only time we got any real results or any real, real progress was when actual hardcore work was done, putting content into the site and actually seeing how it actually looks in real life, then we can make decisions based off of that. Until that point they're just spreadsheets and storyboards and they don't mean anything.

Speaker 2 (00:28:45):

Right. Well also you're talking about a UI upgrade, right? For the whole website you're talking about the customer's journey

Speaker 1 (00:28:52):

Ui, but also there's a massive upgrade coming to what we offer that requires a UI upgrade to the journey. Cool.

Speaker 2 (00:28:59):

I look forward to seeing that.

Speaker 1 (00:29:00):

I'll tell you about it later.

Speaker 2 (00:29:01):

Yes, please show me the UI because that used to be my world. I dunno. Or if we talked about it, I was a graphic artist before I did music.

Speaker 1 (00:29:11):

We just figured out what it has to be so it's not there.

Speaker 2 (00:29:14):

It doesn't matter visually, it matters about with all these things when you are trying to determine how someone's going to come to something that they've not seen before, there's also a stage of explaining to someone, oh, the customer's always wrong basically. And in order for you to get them to engage with some things, you have to show them a way of interacting with either content or products that they've never seen before that they then go, oh, okay, actually everything else is wrong. And the only experiences that I've had are based upon bad. The reason why I talk about this is because I'm doing software stuff and that requires, so I understand this journey and this sort of pain again, of trying to explain to someone why almost everything that exists at the moment within reason is broken in some way because they are building or designing based upon a design language that someone else designed that is also wrong. So trying to find the way of doing something the most effectively with the least visible options in front of the person so that the choices that they get to make are not predetermined for them but easier to make because they're refined in such a perfect way that they immediately understand that what they're looking at is a funnel.

Speaker 1 (00:30:30):

Absolutely. So that is the same as how you make progress in audio, in my opinion. When you're working with other people, for instance, what's easier, talking about a change you want to make in a production or just doing it and showing people both I disagree. I want to hear why you think option A is effective. Option

Speaker 2 (00:30:52):

A allows you to understand the person that you're working with better. So the better you become acquainted with that person with vocabulary, understanding what their shared vocabulary is means that although you could show them this time round, if they don't understand what you've done, they may not be able to ask for it in future. So for me, and this is specific to me, I want to teach the person that I'm sat opposite with why I'm thinking this way and what the words I use are. Because in future, rather than them saying, oh, can you turn this down and turn that up, what they could say or have the opportunity to say is that is clouding this. I'm not enjoying that. Maybe we can try this thing.

Speaker 1 (00:31:29):

I agree with you, but without actually having done the music part, that conversation is meaningless

Speaker 3 (00:31:36):

Because

Speaker 1 (00:31:36):

If you're teaching them how to explain this thing is clouding that well, you need to have something that's actually clouding something else and then not clouding it anymore to reference. So you have to do the music part. If you're just having the conversation about stuff that hasn't happened yet, it could mean anything, especially if what you're trying to do is get them to understand certain things that are in your head but not in theirs. If you're just using words, you can sit there and talk for a really long time and still not know that the other person understands. What you mean is on board with your idea, even

(00:32:13):

Likes the idea, or if you just do the idea and then they like it or don't then talking about it, well A, you're going to have to talk way less than you did before. You can teach them about it. So I'm not saying don't talk, but out of the two options, I think that, so when someone is trying to convince somebody to take on their idea in a song like a producer is trying to convince an artist that we need a different chorus, melody or something. I just don't like this chorus melody. It should soar more or something. I don't know what language, it should be a more soaring melody. I think this melody is too choppy and the artist says, I don't really know if I agree with that. Start talking about how, yeah, but it'll be easier to sing and blah blah blah. What difference does any of that make if they can't hear the soaring melody you have in your mind they might think soaring melody means something completely different. So write the soaring melody, then explain

Speaker 3 (00:33:13):

Sure.

Speaker 1 (00:33:13):

And if they like it, cool, and you can talk about what you had in mind, but otherwise you're just talking about nebulous shit.

Speaker 2 (00:33:21):

Right? So what you're talking about is the hypothetical situation of how do you introduce someone to content when you don't have any?

Speaker 1 (00:33:29):

Well, yeah, yeah, and I guess just the difference between talking. Okay, so remember when I said 90% action, 10% planning? The planning still requires talking in that scenario with convincing a client of your idea, they're still talking in there, but the talking is based off of actual music, actual something that was done, not a hypothetical change. That's all.

Speaker 2 (00:33:56):

No, I understand. So then going all the way back around to the original question, which is what's easier to do is to talk about it or do it. Then in that scenario, having a way of representing what you're talking about is far easier than trying to use shed vocabulary to get to the point where you're going to make it anyway.

Speaker 1 (00:34:13):

That's why I think that all progress in life really for not all but most comes through action.

Speaker 2 (00:34:20):

Most progress in life comes from action, I dunno.

Speaker 1 (00:34:25):

Action mixed with the right amount of planning and reflection. Of course, yeah. Like bookend, bookended, reflection and planning.

Speaker 2 (00:34:32):

Yes, I agree. Because I think the only way to make progress is to fuck up, is to make mistakes. Because I've met some people that are in that sort of transitional stage where they are at the earlier stages and they've not been to a studio. This is such so weird that the common is that they haven't been in a studio with a drummer and a desk. That being the norm now is weird. But I have conversations from time to time with people that are going into a studio for the first time and they are so scared about making mistake that they think it's going to ruin the record or going to ruin the result that they sometimes end up canceling that session. They will go back to type, they'll go back to what they know and what they're comfortable with.

(00:35:17):

I used to think that that was a generational thing, but I also think that it comes down to the education side of people. There's no one really there, no one in school encourages you to fuck up really. It's just like you have to have all the right answers in order to progress. Now, if you have the wrong answers, then we're going to tell you the right answers and why you're wrong and then you'll have to progress next time. But there's no one actively there trying to encourage people to experiment in order to understand what music is made of or what those actions create as result. They might fuck up and make something that hasn't been heard before and is actually really great for the genre, but because they're anxious about it, they're going to avoid that scenario. I found that having those conversations and encouraging people in that situation and coming across those challenges, fascinating to talk to because I've always been convinced that the worst thing that can happen is that the song doesn't happen. So then you'll just have another opportunity next time for the song to happen.

Speaker 1 (00:36:15):

So the worst thing that can happen is that the song doesn't happen

Speaker 2 (00:36:19):

And the song will happen eventually.

Speaker 1 (00:36:21):

I agree that is kind of profound, the difference between school learning and learning through fucking up. Even though you do make mistakes in school, the mistake is generally, at least my experience at school was did you memorize this answer or not the end? Did you do things within this parameter that we set for you or not? And if not, you got it wrong. So fucking study harder, remember this stuff better come back, do the test again, score higher. But in the real world, in my experience that, well first of all, there's no way to find out the right answers in advance because at least in my world, you don't know the right answers in advance. We're guessing about what's going to work. And so the only way to find out is by doing stuff and it doesn't work.

Speaker 2 (00:37:13):

And then you realistically, if you are being a scientist about it, a life scientist or whatever, you reverse engineer the process of what happened, where it went wrong, why it might've gone wrong and what you'll do differently next time. I mean, I fucked up three months ago and I didn't even notice that I did it and I come home and the band don't know this. But now as a result of fucking up knowing enough in order to resolve these issues, what happened is halfway through tracking a song we're tracking drums, the game staging on the desk changed. All of a sudden 10 DB went straight into the mics, whoops. And it was intermittent. So every take had this error and I didn't notice because it was happening so quickly that it would be halfway through a tom fill and then all of a sudden you've just got, this

Speaker 1 (00:38:02):

Was an electrical problem.

Speaker 2 (00:38:04):

It was like a pad coming in and out.

Speaker 1 (00:38:06):

Got it. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:38:07):

And so you can't recover that information when that's gone, that's gone. And I sat there and I looked at it and I went, I have not made that mistake. I have not made that specific mistake in years, not double checking that the desk had been serviced, but it was the first time I'd been to that studio, but I just started laughing at myself. It's so dumb. The songs are fine, the songs are finished and they're out in the world, so no one noticed. But for me, I look at that and I go, never going back to that studio, need to remember to check the desk, need to remember to ask when the last time that desk was serviced. It's not on me, but it was also on me. So next time don't do that shit.

Speaker 1 (00:38:45):

It'll never happen again.

Speaker 2 (00:38:46):

Probably not,

Speaker 1 (00:38:47):

Probably not. So I was talking to somebody who I don't know if they ever signed up for URM, but they took all my creative live classes

(00:38:55):

Back in the day. I guess I kind of recorded this band back a long time ago and the main guy in the band was always asking me recording tips, but then he would always start asking me advanced stuff, which made me want to stop helping him because to me that's a red flag. Anyway, several years later, the other day his band hired one of our friends to mix his self-produced record for his band and I asked our friend who's an awesome mixer, how the tracking was and he was like, well par for the course for self-produced unprofessional stuff. One of the problems was that the DI's would mono themselves out, not because it was so fucking tight that it just mono, it was because he forgot that he copy pasted them to both sides just to keep going I guess. So I talked to him about it and he said he just forgot that he didn't double certain parts for real.

(00:39:58):

It's like, how do you forget that? And then he said, look, back in the day when I was asking you for advice and you say stuff, make sure you've got no noise in your, like all these kinds of real fundamental but real important things that if you don't take care of them, you might have problems. Check the tuning, just have your guitar set up, things like that. He was kind of blowing that stuff off and wanting to move towards parallel compression, ms processing, mixing huge arrangements like shit like that. And he told me that he will never ignore the simple stuff again. He just learned in a very embarrassing way what happens when you just try to make everybody think that you know everything and you have no fundamentals under your belt.

Speaker 2 (00:40:47):

So why do people have hardons for parallel compression and mid side eq? Because I see it comes up in the URM group on Facebook and stuff

Speaker 1 (00:40:56):

Because it sounds like a silver bullet

Speaker 2 (00:41:00):

Because this comes up so much, it comes up so much on the group and

Speaker 1 (00:41:03):

Came up that way before the group too. So back in the creative live days and stuff, I would go off on this stuff on my Tumblr blog before all this and on creative live

Speaker 2 (00:41:13):

People

Speaker 1 (00:41:14):

Back then were also going nuts about stuff like this.

Speaker 2 (00:41:17):

Weird,

Speaker 1 (00:41:18):

It's just because I think that some people put out some blogs once upon a time or some videos about it or on gear sluts. People talked about it and it sounds like it does amazing things, which I mean peril compression is real cool. It does do amazing things. MS processing is pretty fucking sweet if you do it. But the thing that a lot of amateurs or beginners don't realize is that when professionals are talking about things that are effective, they might be talking about things that have 1% of an effect on the overall mix.

Speaker 2 (00:41:52):

It's the smallest move. The reason why I ask is because actually it's come up so much and I've seen it being mentioned so much that

Speaker 1 (00:41:59):

They're like moths going towards a shiny object basically.

Speaker 2 (00:42:02):

Well, it's come up so much that I've been like, they're going, wait, should I be doing this? Because I don't do it at all because I don't think I've ever bothered with mid side EQ because I've always looked at it and gone pretty destructive, can't be bothered, move on to the next thing because it came up so much and people are going, this is the advanced shit. And I'm like, wait, should I, because I'm here, should I be doing this? Should I be trying it? It had such a counter effect, not influence, but I double backed on myself and I started looking at my workflow going, wait, am I missing something? Is it that big a deal that I'm missing a stage that could be a part of my workflow? And I never understood, because for me, the coolest part of what you can do is increase now this is mega nerdy, is increase your dynamic range potential. Bringing down your noise floor is the more interesting side of trying to smush everything together and obliterate the stereo field. If you can bring down the noise floor, then you have more space to work within in the first place. And I don't understand why people don't talk about that stuff, but that to me is like

Speaker 1 (00:43:03):

That's the stuff that will change your mixes overnight if you get that under control.

Speaker 2 (00:43:11):

Exactly. And no one's there going, I guess you can't sell a plugin on noise floor, can you?

Speaker 1 (00:43:18):

I mean that's why we had you do a gain staging fast track and that's why we make it mandatory because people, if they had the option to skip that, they would.

Speaker 2 (00:43:30):

Yeah, they wouldn't want to put the paint on the walls.

Speaker 1 (00:43:32):

Yeah, it's ridiculous. I understand though. Like I said, I really do think that it's people acting like bugs towards a bug light. Now I think though, to answer your question about MS processing, if you wanted to explore it, I think that would be appropriate because you're at a point with your work where you are looking for, well, what can make a mix 1% better, half a percent better? You're trying to get something that's really great to even greater extract every last possible drop of quality out of it. So why not? Why not see at a beginner man, that's not the thing they should be worried about.

Speaker 2 (00:44:26):

No, not at all. But I guess to answer your point on that is because I always felt, I was always taught that the end result should refeed and reinforce where you start from. So if the end result is bad, it's not about throwing more tricks into it to get that 1%. I always feel like the end result is a direct reflection of how well I did at the first very first stage, I guess. So did I get the tracking right? If the tracking or the timing determine how big your mix feels, how wide it gets, and then how tight it is or how gridded it is,

Speaker 1 (00:44:57):

Which then equals how loud can your master get?

Speaker 2 (00:45:01):

And so that refeeding the initial stage or going back or getting a mix done and then going, actually if I edit this a little bit less good, if I actually make this slightly worse, it'll sound slightly bigger and if I make this slightly tighter, it'll actually sum to mono a bit easier and then I can push this in this way. And then that's the extra one or 2% for me is that refe back to the very first few steps that you can take and that initial decision making based upon the band that's in front of you or the mix that's in front of you. I guess that's why I've not looked at the parallel compression or mid side eq. I've always felt when I started, I never understood them, didn't understand them,

Speaker 1 (00:45:39):

But you use the mix knob on things right?

Speaker 2 (00:45:41):

On one bus.

Speaker 1 (00:45:44):

So you're using parallel.

Speaker 2 (00:45:45):

Yeah. Okay. But I guess that's the only example.

Speaker 1 (00:45:48):

So you found one use for it. Great.

Speaker 2 (00:45:50):

Yeah, and it's not the be all and end all because I could have the mix knob at a hundred, I would just have a little less of what it's doing.

Speaker 1 (00:45:57):

But you used it and it's not all over everything, but MS Processing does have some benefits for people who use it well, does have some benefits like ability to very easily filter below certain frequency and put the low end into mono. I mean there's other ways to do that too.

Speaker 3 (00:46:19):

There

Speaker 1 (00:46:19):

Are good things you can do with it, but I agree it's not a be all end all even close to that and more than anything, I think it's more of a fixing tool for mastering engineers when they get a bad mix where those sides are not very well balanced with the middle. It's a very effective tool for that. Now mastering engineers though, they're dealing with one db, half a db,

Speaker 2 (00:46:48):

The level of detail they go into is definitely something I don't have the patience for

Speaker 1 (00:46:53):

And the level of subtlety that they'll use that shit with is generally not going to ruin anything.

Speaker 3 (00:46:58):

The

Speaker 1 (00:46:58):

Way that I think a lot of these beginning mixers are looking at stuff like MS processing is that it's going to be this thousand pound bomb.

Speaker 2 (00:47:06):

Okay, no, that makes sense.

Speaker 1 (00:47:08):

Hey everybody, if you're enjoying this podcast then you should know that it's brought to you by URM Academy URM Academy's mission is to create the next generation of audio professionals by giving them the inspiration and information to hone their craft and build a career doing what they love. You've probably heard me talk about Nail the mix before and if you're a member, you already know how amazing it is. The beginning of the month Nail the mix members, get the raw multitracks to a new song by artists like Lama God Angels and Airwaves, knock loose OPEC shuga, bring me the Horizon Gojira asking Alexandria Machine Head and Papa Roach among many, many others over 60 at this point. Then at the end of the month, the producer who mixed it comes on and does a live streaming walkthrough of exactly how they mix the song on the album and takes your questions live on air.

(00:47:59):

And these are guys like TLA Will Putney, Jens Borin, Dan Lancaster to I Mattson, Andrew Wade, and many, many more. You'll also get access to Mix Lab, which is our collection of dozens of bite-sized mixing tutorials that cover all the basics as well as Portfolio Builder, which is a library of pro quality multi-tracks cleared for use in your portfolio. So your career will never again be held back by the quality of your source material. And for those of you who really want to step up their game, we have another membership tier called URM Enhanced, which includes everything I already told you about and access to our massive library of fast tracks, which are deep, super detailed courses on intermediate and advanced topics like game staging, mastering low end and so forth. It's over 500 hours of content. And man, let me tell you, this stuff is just insanely detailed. Enhanced members also get access to one-on-ones, which are basically office hour sessions with us and Mix Rescue, which is where we open up one of your mixes and fix it up and talk you through exactly what we're doing at every step. So if any of that sounds interesting to you, if you're ready to level up your mixing skills in your audio career, head over to M Academy to find out more.

Speaker 2 (00:49:16):

I just talked about it with Nick about audio myths about things that get passed on as the rule of thumb that you're not supposed to break.

Speaker 1 (00:49:24):

Have you done a video on that?

Speaker 2 (00:49:26):

We're working on it. Yeah, we're talking about that being like a YouTube series.

Speaker 1 (00:49:30):

Yeah, that's a good one.

Speaker 2 (00:49:31):

It's just myth busting and then we pull up a subject, we go and find out why it originated in the first place, what it meant and then is it useful now? That's the next evolution of it all, I think. Cool. Yeah, so there's examples of that where it's shit, don't EQ more than three DB on anything in any direction or don't over compress or if you're doing this you're wrong. And the interesting point is actually tracing that original quote backwards in time to see why it existed in the first place and what it meant. And it normally comes down to desk noise and tape pretty much, and the limitations when tracking down. But to see people carrying it as gold in the digital age is and having to explain why that's not a thing anymore. Especially with now with 32 bit floating point recording, it's do whatever the fuck you want. If it sounds good, fine.

(00:50:31):

I had to boost 30 DB of low end into something and then when I'm reading these sort of like don't do more than three db, I'm there going, if you read that as a starting engineer starting, first thing you read is no more than three db, you'd be fucked. You'd stop and you'd be questioning yourself over something that has no place in the job now. And so having these sort of like, it's not snake oil, it's just being able to sniff bullshit and think outside the box, think for yourself, use your brain a bit, follow the breadcrumbs, encourage people to do their own research and see if there are being misled or not.

Speaker 1 (00:51:06):

High. Pass everything

Speaker 2 (00:51:07):

High, pass everything 100%. However, if you are distorting the living shit out of something or 50 odd tracks, probably useful to high pass

Speaker 1 (00:51:15):

Stuff. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:51:16):

Yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:51:16):

Of course. But high pass, everything is a rule just period. Just high pass everything

Speaker 2 (00:51:23):

I got asked, when you export stems for bands to play live, do you bypass it again? I was like, what do you mean bypass? Pass it again,

Speaker 1 (00:51:29):

But don't you bypass pass everything.

Speaker 2 (00:51:31):

He didn't reply and I was like, why would I bypass it without asking them when I send it out? And then I was like, where did that question come from? Where did he get that? So shame didn't reply because I, that could have led to another episode in order to follow down. But the idea that people end up with these little things where it's like, you must do X and you must do YI always get curious as to where they got them from in the first place or who's still saying that in the first place.

Speaker 1 (00:51:54):

I like this man. I get hit with these a lot.

Speaker 2 (00:51:57):

Yeah, yeah, I guess so. Yeah, you're the face of the fucking company. So sure

Speaker 1 (00:52:02):

Of a lot of these. Sometimes they irritate the shit out of me. Sometimes I think they're funny.

Speaker 2 (00:52:07):

Okay.

Speaker 1 (00:52:08):

They irritate the shit out of me. When someone gets belligerent about them,

Speaker 2 (00:52:13):

Really they get, well,

Speaker 1 (00:52:14):

You don't see it in URM. Okay. So URM, we have a great culture there

Speaker 3 (00:52:20):

Where

Speaker 1 (00:52:20):

Belligerence is not allowed. So I'm thinking pre URM and what I've seen other places on the internet. Yeah, people get belligerent about this shit. Go to some other audio group and watch how people behave about this dumb fucking shit.

Speaker 2 (00:52:36):

Okay, so talking about that, have you been on audio engineering on Reddit? The subreddit?

Speaker 1 (00:52:42):

I've popped in and out at times.

Speaker 2 (00:52:44):

That's my favorite thing to read at the moment. Just in general, to get an idea of what the general temperature is for

Speaker 1 (00:52:51):

Base

Speaker 2 (00:52:52):

Level recording and just sort of seeing, cause I was having this conversation with Finn when we were establishing the tone of voice for the YouTube content and I hadn't realized how, not negligent but naive. I was about the base level recording knowledge of early doors producer, and he said that the people that subscribe to URM are miles, it's not even measurable ahead of the majority of people that use the internet and record audio. And he started sending me all these links of examples for this is the base level standard and you're still going to get people that are worse than this. Going down that avenue and trying to find the places where those people talk has been really

Speaker 1 (00:53:37):

Enlightening

Speaker 2 (00:53:38):

And it's one of those things where you're on the toilet, you're going to read red it. So I may as well read this and see if it's going to be funny

Speaker 1 (00:53:47):

If you're in the URM community a lot, it's easy to think that that's how the wider world is,

Speaker 2 (00:53:54):

Right?

Speaker 1 (00:53:55):

But it's not. I've had a couple of our friends get a little frustrated at times with people in URM for not understanding certain concepts, and I will stick up for the students and kind of put them in their place because I'll be like, dude, first of all, they're not your peers. Your peers are in there, but these are students, A, B, they're trying to learn C, go to some other groups and see what it's like. Then come back because you should just shut the fuck up and appreciate that there's this many people who are really trying to get better,

Speaker 2 (00:54:35):

Who

Speaker 1 (00:54:35):

Are being cool. Doesn't

Speaker 2 (00:54:36):

It make you pine for how the sneak forum was? That was cruel for existing in the first place, especially at a point in time where the internet was still quite early and people were obviously managing to think outside the box a lot easier back then.

Speaker 1 (00:54:51):

That's what I'm trying to have this be is the new version of that where

Speaker 2 (00:54:56):

I can see it

Speaker 1 (00:54:58):

Five years from now, 10 years from now, there will be a whole generation of pros who met on there.

Speaker 2 (00:55:05):

I hope so.

Speaker 1 (00:55:06):

But however, the difference is it still exists and it's 20 times bigger than it is now. But yeah, thinking back to the way that the S Neat forum used to be before Andy dipped on it, it was awesome because there were so many people who were trying to legitimately learn who were not interested in tearing each other down. And there was an authority figure, Andy,

Speaker 3 (00:55:33):

Who

Speaker 1 (00:55:33):

Was helping, he wasn't helping much, but he was helping here and there isn't much of that out there still. That's why I try to make URM kind of like that, where community people who are legitimately trying to learn with real authority figures, except they're actually helping. But the Andy Snee forum was pivotal for so many of us because of that, there was nothing else like that. There were no other places on the internet where people were that cool and that focused on getting better at the same thing. Anytime I went to other groups, well forums, I'd noticed that it was a lot more about people just trying to sound smarter than everybody else or wielding some sort of power of some sort. I didn't get the, we're in this together to try to dial the sickest fucking tones.

Speaker 2 (00:56:23):

Right. The experience of Sneak also made me wonder about, especially with now and then the questions that we get asked, which we think are simple or easy, it makes me wonder about what happens in the next decade where the information about not just not gain staging, but how a fucking desk works, why things are like this, why plugins and outboard are different, but also useful. How to take transferable skills from inside the box and use them in the real world whilst it still matters. For example, a really good one is, so I started with program drums. We all did within some reason or another until we got into a studio. I started with superior drummer and so my base knowledge was superior drummer. And when I got into a studio first time, cut my teeth doing drums, I was stunned that what I thought sounded bad or was told was bad from Superior drummer because it was raw, that real drums were way worse in terms of they were dark, they had information that I had never heard before.

(00:57:27):

I didn't understand what Bleed was doing there. I couldn't take the processing that I was using on Superior Drummer and then apply it to the live drums. But they're supposed to be the same, but they're not the same, but they are the same thing. There's going to come a time, I think, if we're not careful, where that knowledge or that way of thinking of why real audio, real audio, audio that exists outside of the box, I suppose why it sounds the way it does and why things work the way they do and how much effort it takes to get them to the point that people are used to because of convenience. And it's not that they're doing something wrong, it's just that you've kind of been, not lied to, but just misled a little bit. But this is why your tricks or your skills won't be completely applicable starting from the computer going outwards. But everything that you learn in the real world, going back into the box will definitely be applicable. Does that make sense?

Speaker 1 (00:58:25):

No, it makes sense. But what I'm wondering about, what you're wondering is do you think that it's just going to get real bad or something? Or do you have a pessimistic outlook on that? I can't tell.

Speaker 2 (00:58:38):

No, I am just curious because I never thought I would get asked the questions that I'm getting asked every day. I never thought that someone wouldn't be willing to take the time to understand if they don't like why something they're doing sounds bad or why they don't like the sound of it, that they're not willing to experiment in order to find out how to make it sound good or how to improve upon it or how to follow the breadcrumbs. And if it's something as simple as a guitar di, if they're going from doing something as complex as doing MIDI programming up to real drums and they don't have someone as a mentor or a thing to follow or something that explains it to them, there is going to be a likelihood where it'll be, sounds bad, not going to bother because it's not as good as the plugin. I dunno.

Speaker 1 (00:59:20):

Okay. So the question though, isn't that just their certain individual's personality type?

Speaker 2 (00:59:25):

I hope so, but I always find it interesting that the question exists in the first place because I never asked those questions even when I was starting. What this means is my expectation is for everyone to consider things the way that I do, which is not going to be happening. But that's my internal bias about it.

Speaker 1 (00:59:42):

So I think that what you're describing has nothing to do with the time period or the generation. I think what you're describing is just some people have this chip that they're installed with where if something isn't good enough, they're going to keep going until it is. And I don't really think that that's another one of those things that I feel like is partially more nature than nurture. I've met lots of different people in this world at this point, and I've noticed that there's a certain type of person that if they're not satisfied with something, nobody has to tell them to question it. They just do it. They just know. They know they're not happy. They know they need to keep going. And so I do believe that 10 years from now, no matter how things evolve, there will still be people who maybe they came up through the bedroom and never stepped foot in a real drum room until they were 25 or anything like that, who their first experience of working with real drums is fucking horrific because nobody uses real drums anymore. It's like tape or something. But they'll still want to learn how to get good at it because it's in front of them and they have to, I just think it's a personality type man.

Speaker 2 (01:01:00):

Okay, I'm glad you do because it intrigues me because it's what I'm faced with. Right.

Speaker 1 (01:01:05):

Well, okay, so there's common knowledge and then there's common personality types. So back before Superior Drum, it was common knowledge that you had to learn to record drums because there's no other way to do it. So whatever went into recording drums or the knowledge that you had to at least do it or whatever, people didn't question that at all. It just was part of the deal. Now you have people who didn't grow up with that as part of the deal, so this shit's foreign to them. So out of those people who grew up with this not being part of the deal, you're going to have one group of people who just accept shitty results and another group of people who grew up that way and want better, no betters out there and we'll keep going for better. But I think that that would've been the same thing in any other time in history.

Speaker 2 (01:02:01):

I guess that's comforting.

Speaker 1 (01:02:02):

I'm sure of it actually.

Speaker 2 (01:02:03):

I'm glad you are because for me, looking at what I have in front of me, if I say we weren't having this conversation, I'd be looking at the evidence that I'm presented with, which are these questions where I go, fucking hell dude, mate, Google exists and it has an archive. You are capable. And the fact that the question has come to me and they haven't, it takes longer for me to reply than it does for you to search for it.

Speaker 1 (01:02:29):

Yeah. There's a reason for why you can Google it. Isn't that a website or just Google it? Man, I don't remember what it was.

Speaker 2 (01:02:38):

Is it? Let me google it for you.

Speaker 1 (01:02:40):

Yeah, let me google that.com. There's a reason for why that exists.

Speaker 2 (01:02:44):

Yeah, because then you can send them a link and it types it out for you and press center for you.

Speaker 1 (01:02:47):

Yeah. Someone made this because of what you're talking about. It's not just audio, it's people.

Speaker 2 (01:02:55):

I try not to get bummed out by it, but I see these questions come in and I'm like, you have access to more than I did and you're fucking it. Please, come on, please. I don't want to feel like this about you individual person.

Speaker 1 (01:03:11):

Well, I think that what you're experiencing a is the questions they're asking are pertinent to this time period. So they're going to be about those types of things that you brought up. Obviously what's on people's minds, but I just think you may need to just learn to accept it.

Speaker 2 (01:03:30):

There's a lot to do with me that I need to learn about and become comfortable with. I'm aware of it and I find it really fucking difficult, but I'm at least aware of it.

Speaker 1 (01:03:41):

One of the things that has been hardest for me to learn and not just learn but utilize and really incorporate in my life is this understanding that people don't think like me. They can't, how could they? They're not me and not just do they not think like me, but a lot of people think very differently than I do. They're just wired completely different. I used to have problems with people like back in the band days and some the production days where I think I'd be a fucking monster asshole because I'd see a solution to something that's just so goddamn logical and they didn't see it. How could they not see it? It makes so much sense. The fuck is wrong with these people. I'm a lot nicer than I used to be apparently with URM, especially working with Finn, it's helped me get a lot better at this. And even now I'll have things where I will see a very clear solution to something or have a vision for something and realize that I'm the only one that gets it and that's okay. So it's my job to help other people get there too or to get them to buy in. Even if they don't understand it, they should trust me on this rather than me getting angry that they don't see it the way I see it. I remember nobody understood the idea for the fast track library. Nobody.

Speaker 3 (01:05:09):

Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:05:10):

I had to fight really hard to not just get that started, but to keep it going even after it had been going for years. It's like our most stable product by far. It's more stable than now. The mix as far as retention goes, what's that?

Speaker 2 (01:05:27):

You get retention statistics on the fast tracks?

Speaker 1 (01:05:30):

No, we get it on enhanced. Right.

Speaker 2 (01:05:32):

Okay. And

Speaker 1 (01:05:32):

We know what people in enhanced watch,

Speaker 2 (01:05:35):

Sorry, I get geeky over that shit. Okay, that's cool.

Speaker 1 (01:05:38):

We know it's not mixed rescue even though it should be. So here's the thing, mixed rescue I think is one of those things where the most motivated 15% fucking love it. And for those people it's really important to do it because those people who love it are the ones who are the most dedicated students and they think that mixed rescue is our best content. So it's one of those things where if you just did everything based on numbers, we would get rid of it. But numbers alone aren't enough. What type of numbers and what the numbers mean that it's a lot more, if we were to remove that because it doesn't get as many views as the fast tracks, we would be taking away our most dedicated students', most valuable resource that we provide anyways. Things like the fast tracks. It seems like so obvious to me this library and the idea for it, but nobody got

Speaker 3 (01:06:35):

It.

Speaker 1 (01:06:36):

And I didn't understand how it didn't make perfect sense, but it didn't exist yet. So how could I have expected people to get it the way that I saw it instead of making it adversarial. I did it in a way that was more, I guess team-like. Anyways, my point just being that it's hard, man, it's hard to come to the realization that people are just not going to see things and feel things the way that you do. Even when you're right, even when things are so glaringly fucking obviously, right? You just have to deal with it.

Speaker 2 (01:07:10):

To further that, I got into a thought process. I was asking hypothetical questions with the band that I was working with. It was a couple of months ago. I got myself into a, I dunno if you do this where you end up in with a hypothetical scenario and you end up in the loop about it, you keep ruminating on it.

Speaker 1 (01:07:29):

What do you mean by hypothetical scenario?

Speaker 2 (01:07:31):

Hypotheticals stop. So the example being is that we all think individually, we all learn language individually. We all understand words to be what we determine them to be. So we end up with, we can agree what one word means, but our understanding of it will be unique to us, which then hypothetically would mean that it's fair to assume based upon our own unique experience of learning a language and then understanding what each word means is almost impossible to share what you feel and think directly articulately in a way that someone else can receive it. And then understand it exactly how you mean for it to. So there's no perfect way for you to say anything. So there's a scenario out there where you can then extrapolate that to you will never be understood, ever.

(01:08:22):

And that I found really, really difficult to come to terms with because with the jobs that we do and the world that we choose to work within, actually everything that we do is communication in one way or another. And I couldn't get around the idea that everything that I was doing, irrespective of the efforts that I was putting into it, still probably meant that even if I got it completely right, it doesn't matter if it left me perfectly, the person on the other end can still interpret it incorrectly. So then, yeah, I just ended up in a loop for a little while. It lasted about 48 hours where I was just going over it again and again and again about, well what if I do this? What if I change that? And in the end, like you say, I just had to come to terms with the fact that I can only do my bit. I can't really determine how someone else ends up interacting with what I say or do by the end of it. But it just made me feel, I dunno, it was a challenge. It's just another challenge.

Speaker 1 (01:09:14):

Yeah. It's sad when you realize that there's no way out of that one.

Speaker 2 (01:09:20):

No, but the thing that's cool about music is that I think you can get closer to it than with words with music.

Speaker 1 (01:09:30):

I agree.

Speaker 2 (01:09:31):

There's a nice side about it. Then it comes back round to the thing that we talked about earlier, which is what's better? Do you show someone or do you talk to 'em about it? And then this whole rumination kind of reinforces that the efforts that you should go to in order to make sure that when you're putting something down that it does its job as well as it can do without you having to try and explain it.

Speaker 1 (01:09:50):

Well, it's a tough topic at the end of the day, no matter what, even if you get people to buy in, they still don't understand it the way you do. The most you can hope for in a successful communication is that people go along for whatever reason. Even if you've done your job, they're still not going to feel it the way you feel it. They're not going to hear it the way you hear it. They're not going to understand it exactly the way you understand it. It's just impossible. So even if you are successful, there's still a level of separation between you and them Always.

Speaker 2 (01:10:24):

Yeah. Why do you think it is then we persevere to continue to try or to to do

Speaker 1 (01:10:31):

Social creatures.

Speaker 2 (01:10:32):

Isn't that fucked?

Speaker 1 (01:10:33):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:10:33):

Do you not think that's fucking mad that we are designed to socialize, but we're really bad at it? I dunno. And this is why I ended up in a cycle and just ruminating over it and getting obsessed about it because it was something that I'm sure you must do something similar when there's a problem or a thing that you come across and you go, well, there's obviously an answer to this and I just have to find the right way of thinking about it to get around it. And I just ended up locked on that and I was like, yep, I have no answer. And two days later I still have, actually I have a worse answer than I had two days ago. It's just something that you end up having to come to terms with.

Speaker 1 (01:11:10):

The thing that I come to terms with in those types of situations, my way out of those is I start asking myself, well, what's the best I can actually hope for here? There's how I'd like it to be, but what can I actually hope for out of this? And just accept that for better or for worse, for

Speaker 2 (01:11:31):

Better or for worse. It makes sense.

Speaker 1 (01:11:33):

We have a few questions from listeners I'd like to ask you.

Speaker 2 (01:11:37):

Sure.

Speaker 1 (01:11:37):

Okay. First one, what is your best MS processing trick? I'm just kidding. Alright, from Genova, can you give us any advice for providing extra value as a producer? There's so much competition out there and it's difficult to differentiate from the rest.

Speaker 2 (01:11:55):

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:11:56):

Seems appropriate for our convo,

Speaker 2 (01:11:58):

Man. I did not think today would be like this.

Speaker 1 (01:12:01):

What did you expect?

Speaker 2 (01:12:02):

Well, I expected mild nudity, at least some nudity. And then for us to just be talking about mid side eq,

Speaker 1 (01:12:10):

Well we are,

Speaker 2 (01:12:11):

Yeah, value.

Speaker 1 (01:12:12):

Well, what does that even mean?

Speaker 2 (01:12:14):

I want to stay top level on this because I think it's probably pretty easy for me to end up getting too philosophical or deep about it or going down the rabbit hole. But the simplest way of adding value is making sure that the way that you work is irreplaceable by anyone else. So that takes a lot of shapes and can look like many things, but being irreplaceable is being more than simply someone that manages to press record or make something sound good. Because there's always going to be someone that can make something sound better than you, but there's not always going to be someone that is as good as you are at being you. So then finding the unique thing that you can offer someone is going to be your value. For me, I like to think that my way of introducing value to a band beyond the music is understanding how they can better connect with the people that they want to reach, how they can utilize the things that they have around them in order to do that, how they can better tell the story that they're trying to tell.

(01:13:11):

It turns out that the managers that they have don't do that, which is their job, but they don't do it. And so I spend the time walking them through understanding what the current climate looks like. So right now at the moment, it's actually a lot about how to survive, what's going to happen. When we come out of our current pandemic situation, there's going to be a flood of information that happens and how you stay top of mind. During that, there's going to be a pandemic of information within music. There's going to be too many people releasing music and not enough places to play shows. And the people that are more important are going to get all the headlines and the people that are doing DIY are not really going to get seen as much. So it's about how to navigate that, how them understand what that climate can look like and how to devise tactics. That's my way of providing value to someone else that is completely outside of the job at hand. So your version of that may be something completely different, and it also may be something that I myself can never do, but value is being irreplaceable and finding your way of being irreplaceable.

Speaker 1 (01:14:20):

I want to bring up that when making yourself irreplaceable. This is going to sound funny because we're talking about it in a good way.

(01:14:32):

I know there's some people listening who are going to immediately think of a nefarious way to make themselves irreplaceable. And I will give you an example. So when my band was looking to level up, I knew that we were good enough to get signed. I knew it, I was right, but I also knew that I needed a mixer who was better than me to mix our stuff back in 2004. I could have done it, but I needed somebody who was better straight up better. So I hired a mixer and I found a mastering engineer who had done a lot of huge metal stuff. This mixing engineer was hell bent on mastering it, but I didn't want him mastering it. He wasn't very good at mastering and he also was not happy with the idea that this other mastering engineer was going to make more than he did for the mix. But I remained steadfast on the idea that I wanted this person to master it. And what this person did to make himself irreplaceable was he mastered it and then deleted the unmastered mixes.

Speaker 2 (01:15:47):

I know this story. Yeah, I know parts of this.

Speaker 1 (01:15:50):

So then we got signed, the label wanted remixes because we had a bunch of new songs and wanted them to sound like they were mixed in a similar way. But he figured, why don't we just try remastering them? We'll get them all mastered by Ted Jensen. Maybe it'll save us from needing a remix. Guess what? The unmastered mixes didn't exist. So that was just not possible. So it had to be remixed. At which point the label decided, well, someone else is mixing it,

Speaker 3 (01:16:25):

Someone

Speaker 1 (01:16:25):

Else is calling Richardson. So anyways, I've seen when people try to do nefarious shit to try to make themselves irreplaceable, that they become replaceable. The best way to be irreplaceable is by improving people's lives. You make their songs so much better when they work with you that why wouldn't they work with you? The things that you help them understand about the world are so profound that why wouldn't they keep coming back to you? Just the process of working with you or knowing you makes their lives better and easier. The end,

Speaker 2 (01:17:06):

Right? The one that I'm practicing at the moment, over the last couple of years, a lot of bands will have reached out to me in order to be the closer. I will be the guy that they bring the demos to. I will determine what their identity is. I will design that sound. I will help them be unique. I will determine how to take their midi and have personality. But the problem I found myself facing with that is that actually it's my music and they're just playing it. And I don't like that feeling, not because I want that music. It's more that it means that there is a situation here where I might be squashing their personality by me being the overarching personality in the music. So now the practice is actually at the moment is I'm trying to find as many ways as I can before they get to me of enabling or encouraging them to actually not spend time with me. So it means paying me less, but then there's more of them in the music. It takes longer and the outcome is more unique. And it raised a point to me that is it. It might be albini. He doesn't do anything, does he lets the band come in and be them. And he amplifies that.

Speaker 1 (01:18:19):

I just talked to him actually about this. He's a conduit according to him.

Speaker 2 (01:18:26):

So I really spent a lot of time in the last year trying to learn as much about the things that I dunno about and understand the parameters of our job and the vastness of it. You have people like Karli and then you have Rick Rubins, and then you have Eric Valentine's, and you have different types of engineers that get involved or choose to live on the peripheral and ensure that you are amplifying their personality as much as you can. And I found that really fascinating that you can have all of those different types of successes that I decided that I, for some of these bands, did not want to be imposing myself as much on their music as I was. So bringing a background to the context of value is that I'm trying to give them more value by encouraging them to be them and actually save money and only spend the money with me that needs to be spent, which is counterintuitive because I make less, but it means that they are happier. I should be happier because I feel like I'm going to get something different to work with and they're going to see that as valuable because they can then trust me that I'm not just there to try and earn an income off of them by any means necessary.

Speaker 1 (01:19:32):

Yeah, that's great. You know what I think too is that the way that you're approaching this is very much in line with your personality. You're keeping it true to what makes you feel comfortable and uncomfortable and your artistic sensibilities. I think with her question of how can you provide more value? It's hard for you to answer how she can provide more value. She's really the only one who can determine how she can provide more value because it comes down to, well, who is she? What does she know that they don't know about the world? What can she do that they can't do on their own? What can she bring to the table? She needs to know what that is, in my opinion. And if she doesn't know, well, the only way to figure that out is by kind of back to the beginning of the conversation, that 90% action shit. Rather than trying to plan out how much value you bring to the table, get in there and try,

Speaker 2 (01:20:34):

The bands will show you where you are. Was it Dad says, follow the fucking money. The bands will show you and they won't realize that they're showing you. So just pay attention to that. And then I don't want to say take advantage of it, but you know what I mean. Just utilize that information for what it is.

Speaker 1 (01:20:50):

Well, yeah, assess the situation. Use it. Because we could sit here and we could be like, well learn video and then offer video services for the band and then all this kind of stuff. But

Speaker 3 (01:21:01):

That's

Speaker 1 (01:21:01):

Not it. If you already are great at video and you can somehow offer video services for the band, cool. Alright. It's not something that other people can decide for you. You're going to need to figure it out for yourself.

Speaker 2 (01:21:15):

Yeah. The value that you bring will be something that you'll find comes naturally to you and it'll be so easy that you won't even think it's valuable, but other people will find it hard to do and that'll be the thing that highlights what it is that you are naturally good at that you should be taking notice of.

Speaker 1 (01:21:31):

Yeah, absolutely. Alright. Question from Dario Castillo, which is in the previous podcast you mentioned that you have a regular working schedule nine to five type. Have you managed to maintain that type of schedule?

Speaker 2 (01:21:43):

No. Has anyone, it's been 12 months of, I probably would have had the air not been poisoned for 18 months. And within reason, yes, I keep a very similar schedule, but that schedule changes. So the routine's allowed to change, but not being in a routine isn't

Speaker 1 (01:22:01):

Makes sense. Salvatore Sam Guana says, how are you so incredibly handsome

Speaker 2 (01:22:09):

When a mommy and a daddy love each other very much? They have a special cuddle. That's

Speaker 1 (01:22:13):

Right. And either it can turn out great, turn out bad.

Speaker 2 (01:22:17):

There you go.

Speaker 1 (01:22:18):

Cody Kavanaugh. How is the current studio renovation going? What are some challenges you've run into that were unexpected?

Speaker 2 (01:22:27):

What you think looks good and what actually looks good? Two very different things. And then it's a completely different thing when you decide to bring a camera into the fold. There are two common materials that end up in studios that are the absolute worst to have for filming. One is natural wood because it's the same color as your fucking skin. And the other one is raw brick because it's also in the same area as your skin on a color chance. So if the light is wrong in that room, you're screwed. And then you have to start all over again. So the renovation has been easy. Coming to terms with the fact that the renovation had to happen was not easy because to fix everything that I discovered as a result of starting YouTube and starting filming and making content was not easy to come to terms with because it's cost thousands to do, but it's done and well, it's not done it we're halfway because it's never finished, although I'd like it to be done.

(01:23:26):

And so the paint is on the walls. And now what I've got to do is what is called set dressing. So the room functions today was the first day I got to listen to music in here with all the new treatment and stuff. I took out all my DIY treatment and brought in professionally designed treatment, which is, it's made a bigger difference than I wanted it to because I didn't want my ego to take a hit. But basically turns out, if you want to acoustically treat a room, you can't just put rock wall or Owen's Corning in the room and it's magically okay. It's you have to, apparently you have to take physics into consideration and

Speaker 1 (01:24:04):

Crazy.

Speaker 2 (01:24:04):

Yeah, I will do a video for the URM YouTube about it. I need to obviously find a way of telling the story so that it's entertaining and interesting. But yeah, the ego took a big hit, big hit on the whole process of it, but it was worth doing even if it did make me feel stupid.

Speaker 1 (01:24:20):

It's one of those things where once you learn how to do it right, you can never go back.

Speaker 2 (01:24:25):

Yeah. Also, the thing that you realize is that we talked about making mistakes, so falling forwards, right? I spent money making those mistakes. So there's often like a cost argument between pro and DIY

Speaker 1 (01:24:38):

Sunk cost fallacy.

Speaker 2 (01:24:39):

Right. So the amount I spent on treatment equates to about a third of what I've just spent now on treatment. Which means that had I done it right the first time, it would've been a third cheaper rather than a third more expensive.

Speaker 1 (01:24:53):

Oh, that's not the sunk cost fallacy.

Speaker 2 (01:24:55):

Oh right. Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:24:56):

Some cost fallacy would've been you spent X amount of money to already do it the wrong way. So you're committed.

Speaker 2 (01:25:04):

Right. Okay. Well, I mean, I left it for eight years. The first mistake was building a mezzanine. That was stupid. That's gone. I've learned a lot. It'll probably be more than one video because people can't pay attention to one subject on YouTube, more than one subject on YouTube. So it'll take a little while, but it'll happen.

Speaker 1 (01:25:19):

Well, isn't it funny how studio builds always take so much longer than expected? Because that planning thing, planning is only so good.

Speaker 2 (01:25:29):

It takes longer. And then if you want it to look good, have I shown you this?

Speaker 1 (01:25:34):

Oh cool.

Speaker 2 (01:25:35):

These are the new lights that are going into the studio.

Speaker 1 (01:25:38):

I'm looking up as if that makes it

Speaker 2 (01:25:40):

Yeah, they light up and down and you can change. This is nerdy again, you can change the diffusion. So how soft the light is in them. And I wouldn't typically put this in a normal room because it cost a lot of money to go and find them and for them to be right and not flicker. And when I film in here, it's going to look so sexy and so good that it will have a value. But there's doing the renovation side in a studio functioning and sounding good. And then like you were saying, you can see when people have put care and attention into the additional coats of paints and whatever, and that has a different value to you. Or you take that to mean something about that person's personality or their sticking power or however you choose to look at it.

Speaker 1 (01:26:23):

It means something. Yeah. Everything does.

Speaker 2 (01:26:26):

Yeah. Everything that you do is a reflection of how much you give a fuck. Even if you don't want to care about it, other people might care about it more than you do. And if you give less of a fuck, they'll not judge you for it, but they'll be able to measure you by it.

Speaker 1 (01:26:38):

Absolutely. And with that, I think it's a good place to boom end the episode. George Lever. I want to thank you for coming back on. Always a pleasure.

Speaker 2 (01:26:47):

Thank you very much. It's been nice talking with you mate.

Speaker 1 (01:26:49):

Yeah, for sure. Alright then another URM podcast episode in the bag. Please remember to share our episodes with your friends as well as post some to your Facebook and Instagram or any social media you use. Please tag me at al Levi URM audio at URM Academy. And of course tag our guests as well. I mean, they really do appreciate it. In addition, do you have any questions for me about anything? Email them to me at al at URM Academy. That's EYAL at ur dot aca. DEMY. And use the subject line answer me Al. Alright then. Till next time, happy mixing. You've been listening to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast. To ask us questions, make suggestions and interact, visit URM Academy and press the podcast link today.