JOSH SCHROEDER: Making Metal Dangerous Again, Performance Over Perfection, Producing Like a Director

Speaker 1 (00:00:01):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast, brought to you by Mick DSP professional audio plugins. For over 15 years, Mick DSP has continued producing industry acclaimed and award-winning software titles. The podcast is also brought to you by Slate Digital, all the Pro plugins. One more monthly price, and now your host, Joey Sturgis, Joel Wanasek, and Eyal Levi.

(00:00:26):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast. I am Eyal Levi. Thank you for having me. Yeah, pleasure to have you. The voice you just heard is Mr. Josh Schroeder, producer extraordinaire. Joey and Joel are out today. They're both sick. Those bastards coughing up yellow shit and not able to be with us, but we got this, don't we Josh? We got this.

Speaker 3 (00:00:50):

Yeah, we got it. Absolutely. Tech team it. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:00:52):

So for those of you who are not familiar with Josh, you should be, he's done bands like King eight one Oh Color Morale for Today, battle Cross, a bunch of other stuff, the Browning, and I think it's kind of cool. I actually had heard about you a long time before I had heard about you. I guess we've worked on some of the same bands like Battle Cross and stuff, and I want to say thank you for the Nespresso machine.

Speaker 3 (00:01:22):

Oh yeah, yeah, that's right. Absolutely. You're welcome. Are you still using it? Does it still work?

Speaker 2 (00:01:26):

Of course. Those things never break.

Speaker 3 (00:01:28):

They are like a tank, dude. They're so heavy. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:01:32):

So why did you send me that? I would never send that to anybody. I would keep mine.

Speaker 3 (00:01:38):

I dunno. I just saw you message it and I had this thing and I hated buying pods for it. I'm just not the type of guy that buys the pods. It's not my lifestyle, I guess. So I saw you mention, I'm like, oh, I have that exact thing. I got it for free. A friend of mine was a manager at Nespresso in Chicago and he gave me one of those, and I'm like, I'm sick of this thing on my counter and here's a guy who needs it or wants parts or something. I figured forget what it was, so I was like, I'll just send it to him. You can just pay for shipping.

Speaker 2 (00:02:04):

Yeah, see, make friends with people because you get free in Nespressos. I love it, dude. I think that for the pod style coffee, it's the best

Speaker 3 (00:02:14):

You can get. It really is. It's really awesome.

Speaker 2 (00:02:17):

Yeah. The thing though is I don't really record bands anymore, but when I did,

Speaker 4 (00:02:23):

What

Speaker 2 (00:02:23):

I would do is I would have two coffee makers, one for them, and then my espresso, because if I let them have any of the espresso, it would be gone in two days. And that shit's expensive.

Speaker 3 (00:02:35):

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. That's the thing too. Yeah, it's pretty pricey for what? You know what I mean? Because you're paying for the convenience of it, but it's really good quality stuff. Like you said, it's probably one of the better quality ones you can buy,

Speaker 2 (00:02:46):

But not to share with six dudes. So let's just jump right into it. I want to talk about all kinds of stuff spanning your career, but let's start with recent stuff. I hit you up when the Never Going Back Single came out of the king at one oh song.

Speaker 4 (00:03:10):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:03:10):

Because it kind of blew me away. Let me just say that. First of all, I don't really like lots of newer bands. I just don't kind of feel like Metal has lost its way and I've been very, very public about this now. It is. Not that I'm pro violence or anything like that, I don't think it's a good thing necessarily for people to fear for their lives at shows. However, there was a certain type of dangerous vibe that used to exist in the metal scene.

Speaker 3 (00:03:44):

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (00:03:45):

That I feel has been completely lost. And so when I heard King eight one Oh come out, I was like, okay, this is what's been missing. I mean, I've heard the stories about them and I don't know what's true and what's not, and I don't even care. The only thing is that in the music, that dangerous vibe really comes forward and I think that's a beautiful thing. Honestly, I feel like that is something that, I dunno, it's just gone for

Speaker 3 (00:04:21):

The most part. Yeah, I completely agree a hundred percent. I feel the same way. I really don't listen to much heavy music anymore. I grew up on heavy music, hardcore metal, thrash, death, you name it, and it really shaped and influenced me.

Speaker 2 (00:04:36):

When did you notice it start to kind of ni out? I guess? I feel like in around 2004.

Speaker 3 (00:04:44):

Yes, exactly. Mid two thousands. I think as the recording process got easier, I think metal bands just used to not give a shit. They would just go in the studio and they would give a shit about tone, but it was more about performance back in the day. And now it's more about production for a lot of these bands. It's a lot of bands that I used to work with when I first started. The ones that were a little more on the amateur level, they would be more about the production, production production mix. What about the performance? What about the Heart, the Soul? What about like you said, what about the Edge? What about the attitude? That was never really something like, oh yeah, we need to redo this part because the edge isn't there. Or the attitude or the performance now. Oh, the mix or you know what I mean?

(00:05:33):

Trivial stuff. And I think that's where a lot of bands, they're influenced by the production stuff, which is good. But I think, yeah, like you said, the attitude is missing a bit, bit of a shift. It's a lot safer and easier to consume because it's been mixed well, a lot of the stuff that comes out, and I suppose I'm guilty of it as well, you mix the record, it sounds, it's easy to digest, you know what I mean? So it's difficult to figure out where to fix the problem, but bands like King are absolutely, in my opinion, take it back to a time where it was more about attitude and about the danger of heavy bands. When I was growing up, it felt dangerous to listen to 'em like Marilyn Manson even or Rob Zombie. It's just like, oh, these guys are a little bit twisted.

(00:06:20):

Or corn, especially the earlier records, I felt like I was listening to something I shouldn't, and the mixes were raw and they were crazy sounding, and it wasn't about high fidelity and all this other stuff. It was just more about the attitude of things and records sounded way different. It was less homogenization. So there's a lot of factors, and I think I definitely feel the same way you do. It's hard to really pinpoint what it is, but it's definitely a lot of different factors adding up. I can't blame recording techniques, I can't blame. There's just a lot of shift in attitudes I think too. It's

Speaker 2 (00:06:50):

Hard to pinpoint, but I think we can do a pretty good job here.

Speaker 4 (00:06:54):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:06:54):

Alright, so what's different between working with King versus, I mean, I know every band is different, but if they're the one band out of the massive bands that you've worked with recently that are keeping it true to putting attitude in their music, what's different about working with them versus bands that take the more sanitized approach

Speaker 3 (00:07:19):

They have something to say. I think a lot of bands, even back in the day, even back when I liked a lot of metal stuff, there were still a lot of bands that were screaming. They didn't really have, I don't want to say a right to scream, but they didn't really have anything to say. They didn't have anything interesting. It was a lot of it's mythical stuff. So if you're go the fiction route, that's fine. There are some good authors out there and they're good poets in metal, but a lot of the bands were yelling about stuff that really didn't matter. Whereas King Man, they've been through some stuff, and I've known these guys since 2007, 2008. So we go way back and I've seen where they live. I've seen a lot of the stuff they've been through, I've played shows with these guys that got shut down and police were called. I've seen firsthand a lot of this stuff, and I've grew up around the scene with them, and I always knew they would do something because a lot of the guys in the band, especially David, a visionary, something I like to say is there's bands and there's artists and there's a clear distinction between the two bands to play music. They listen to a record, they're like, oh, I want to sound like that, or I just want to play in a band. That sounds like my favorite bands. Whereas King, they're more artists, visionaries.

(00:08:28):

It's not about sales, it's just about making music that they want to hear that they feel just isn't out there and they're just kind of doing their own thing and they really don't care what's going on or what's saleable or what's marketable. And a lot of bands do, even smaller bands that just really don't have an audience. They really care too much about what people think. They read too much social media. They let that influence their art, and it becomes, again, homogenized and too safe when you're catering to everybody's comments. Whereas King, they don't, David doesn't go on social media. I think he just got a Instagram, but it's more like a one-way conversation. He just sends pictures out lets people know what he's doing, but he really doesn't engage in that stuff. He doesn't let it affect his art, and I think that's a big difference between him and a lot of other people that do music. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:09:12):

That's interesting. We put out a blog in June called If you Want a Career in Audio, you need a point of view all about how well really in any creative field, if you really want to separate yourself from the pack, you need to have a well-defined point of view. And it's absolutely true. It's really interesting to me how you're pointing out that the main differentiator between them and the other bands is his point of view and how much that's pushed to the forefront and to people who are unfamiliar with them. This is a band who was underground until they got to Roadrunner and started touring with Corn and Slipknot and bands like that. I know they probably were around for a while, but as far as making a jump, that's a pretty big jump. My band did the same thing, so I'm aware of the Zero to Roadrunner thing and how that goes. It's like a game changer for your band if that happens. And I don't think that would've just happened with a run of the mill band.

Speaker 4 (00:10:23):

No.

Speaker 2 (00:10:24):

I know that when a label like Roadrunner signs a band, they want a band who's got something to say, who's going to stand out. They don't give a shit if the band is technical or not technical. They need something that they can push that is going to stand on its own in the marketplace. Again, like you said, it's not that it's about the sales or anything like that, but the sales do matter and it's not going to sell at all if it doesn't stand on its own

Speaker 3 (00:10:53):

Right

Speaker 2 (00:10:53):

Now, what about with the actual recording side? Was there anything different about that? Because man, it sounds different. It sounds really raw, but produced. There's all kinds of instrumentation in there, all kinds of elements, yet it still sounds urban. It still sounds like you recorded a band in the room, but it sounds all high fidelity. Let's talk about the actual recording process.

Speaker 3 (00:11:23):

Oh, they are probably my favorite band group of people to work with. There's no limits. A lot of times I try pushing bands and I'll say, let's try this. Let's try that. They're always looking to run with it. What kind of stuff do you mean? I did a little bit of writing with them on Memoirs of a Murderer. I did most of the writing on the new record with them and any weird idea they're all for, because David and I, we, I think, connect on a lot of different things. We grew up listening to a lot of the same music. We like a lot of the same movies. And to me, I think the movie connection is more important in a lot of ways than the music connection because you could probably tell, especially the new record, it's very cinematic in the way it's approached,

Speaker 2 (00:12:11):

Very cinematic.

Speaker 3 (00:12:12):

That was definitely the main thing we wanted to do with it. We wanted to have a flow, a real wide range of sounds and textures, and we were working on a song. The one you're talking about, I ain't Going back in again, and he starts with the vocals first. He writes a classic, like a pop writer. He'll start with lyrics, hooks, and then the music gets written around it. That's how most of their songs are written. So

Speaker 2 (00:12:35):

Even the heavy

Speaker 3 (00:12:36):

Ones, a lot of times, even the heavy ones, not all of them, but a lot of them are written with the lyrics in mind first.

Speaker 2 (00:12:42):

That's actually really unique.

Speaker 3 (00:12:44):

That's how Pop works. That's how Katy Perry, that's how a lot of the classic pop songs are written,

Speaker 2 (00:12:50):

But that's not how metal typically works. Metal usually starts on the guitars and drums and then presented to the vocalists.

Speaker 3 (00:12:58):

All the band writes the music and they're final, and then they send to the vocals, just put your thing on top where at the end of the day, the average listener connects to the vocals. They don't, is drums cool, but what's the vocalist saying? What are they doing? That's always the number one connection, the human element, a guitarist. I play guitars, I play drums. I play a lot of different things, and I can relate to that. But most, well, everybody's going to relate to the lyrics. If you can't understand the language, you could still interpret some inflection and some emotion. But anyhow, yeah, start with the vocals, and he presented the hook to me. I'm like, okay, this is cool. I mean, we'll kind of arrange the notes a little bit. I'm like, okay, so what kind of music do we hear underneath it? And we were talking about a lot of classic bond themes from the sixties, seventies, and that was kind of thing. We really bonded. I'm like, okay, well, no pun intended. We were looking at Sinatra, Nancy Sinatra. I think she did Goldfinger and we looked at Adele. She did What was Skyfall? Skyfall, yeah. Great songs. Awesome songs,

Speaker 2 (00:14:00):

Man, that song is so good.

Speaker 3 (00:14:02):

Yeah, those were kind of the inspirations that we were taking these movie soundtrack songs. We were like, we want to do a song that sounds like it could be in a bond film, but maybe less European, a little more American. So then I got the idea we were playing some Red Dead redemption in our downtime, and David never played it before. I'm like, dude, you got to check this game out. And we were kind of in this western zone. I got this idea for a little guitar lick. We were joking about the classic James Bond lick, that guitar Mar Arrow and Arrow, and how that guy only got paid 20 bucks for that lick, and that's it. Really?

Speaker 2 (00:14:34):

Yeah.

Speaker 3 (00:14:34):

Yeah. He only got paid $20. Oh

Speaker 2 (00:14:36):

Man.

Speaker 3 (00:14:36):

That's kind of one of the most legendary guitar lines ever. So we were just joking about that, and they were like, yeah, let's put some kind of guitar, look in it, make it part of the hook. So that's kind of how that song came to be. So we work very closely together on and try to write in a class in the way pop songs are written, but make that in a metal, you know what I mean? And bring it to the metal world, even though I ain't Going back again, isn't really metal, but he does get kind of intense on it.

Speaker 2 (00:15:00):

That song sounds like James Bond meets Tom Waits.

Speaker 3 (00:15:03):

Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. Meets like gangsters. Yeah. Yeah. And that's another huge influence. They don't listen to a whole lot of metal. They listen to a lot of hip hop stuff. So that was obviously, they did the mix tape. They do a lot of weird stuff like that you wouldn't expect. They pair up with DJ drama and do a mix tape that's got Freddie Gibbs and Trick Trick on it, and it's just, nobody's doing that kind of stuff. They're just light bands think that they think outside the box, but most don't most just keep it real safe. And I always try to push 'em like, let's really try something different here. But most of them are like, no, no, no, no. Whereas King and David especially is like, yes, yes, let's do this. Let's go to that and let's push it even further. So it's awesome artistically, I just can't even think of another band. If you gave me the option to work with, I would have more artistic freedom with and have more fun working with. You know what I mean? It's phenomenal. I love working with them. I can't say it enough.

Speaker 2 (00:16:00):

So where does the metal side of it come in? Because on the track, the one just talking about, I totally hear what you're talking about, but then when you go to something like Alpha and Omega, which by the way, I still hear the cinematic elements in that, and I really like the U2 guitar that's going through the chorus. The Edge. Yes, yes. Big influence. Yeah, it's sick. And I also really like the chord changes in the chorus. I hear the cinematic elements there, but I mean, that's a pretty brutal song. So do you have any words of wisdom on how you would start a song like that from the vocals?

Speaker 3 (00:16:42):

That one actually started with the music on that one in particular. Okay. Okay. I have a little history on that song too. That was a song that Maddie Montgomery from for Today approached me years ago. He wanted to do some kind of a hip hop metal album, and I've always been down with that. I've always thought years ago, hip hop and metal are so related in so many ways because it's so rhythmic. You know what I mean? There's screaming vocals and stuff

Speaker 2 (00:17:06):

And its pissed off.

Speaker 3 (00:17:08):

Yeah. They're so similar. Anytime that any vocalists have problems with their phrasing and their patterns, I'm like, listen to this hip hop guy and this guy and this guy. Don't listen to metal because most metal has shitty phrasing and shitty patterns. Listen to these hip hop dudes because they got you guys beat. So pull influence out of there and bring that to metal. Do something quit. You know what I mean? Being homogenized and quit just being in an echo chamber of influence. Reach out to hip hop, reach out to soundtracks, other things. So anyhow, I had written that song with Maddie in mind at first years ago, and it just never worked out. We just can never get our schedules lined up. And eventually when the King stuff came up and we had a bunch of material we wanted write, I brought that song out and David really liked it, and they kind of did some rearranging to it. Beal wrote a really gnarly solo in the bridge, and they made it their own. Then I remember telling David, I'm like, I want a song, dude. We should do a song. Kanye's like, I Am a God. Do something like that. Man do.

Speaker 2 (00:18:12):

Yes,

Speaker 3 (00:18:13):

Because he loves Kanye. Maybe not the new record, but for sure, Yeezus, I remember when that came out and we were both listening to it like crazy and stuff. But yeah, we should do a song like that, a metal version of that track. Just really feel yourself, man. You're the greatest shit on the planet and just own it. And that's where that song kind of was born out of. And then the video they did, oh my God, is one of the coolest metal videos I've seen. I dunno, in a decade. That's the thing that David is such a visionary, you know what I mean? When he loves doing videos, I wouldn't be surprised if in a few years he quits the band thing and just does movies and stuff because he's so good. Like the direction and the shots. That's a video you could watch 10 times and study the layers and layers and layers. There's classical art influence on it and symbolism. It's just layers and layers deep more than you'll ever get. Just watching on your phone,

Speaker 2 (00:19:04):

That video is really evil. I love it. But you want to know something? Even with some of their less produced videos, I like them like the Kill 'em All video, man, I could watch that on repeat. I love that song, first of all, so damn catchy. And it's so simple. And that video, the thing about it is that the idea has been done before of taking News clips,

Speaker 4 (00:19:36):

But

Speaker 2 (00:19:36):

There's something about the way that they're used to fit with the lyrics that I've never seen done like that before, and it's just intense.

Speaker 3 (00:19:51):

Yeah, I think you're picking up on that because David does the directing. He directs all the videos, he's oversees everything, the merch, the editing of the videos, I mean the live production, everything. He always has the last say on. So when they do that and they do those video clips and they splice it all together. Yeah. He's making all the calls of this lyric and this shot and this lyric and this shot. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. He's one of those, we all work with control freaks, but he has a really good balance of never being overbearing. When I do a mix with them, I pretty much never get any mixed revisions. They're just like, yeah, it's fine. Don't worry about it. It's all good. So then I'm like, oh, well, then I'm the one freaking out. But yeah, super easy to work with a control freak in the right way. That really helps the vision. A good

Speaker 2 (00:20:36):

Leader isn't a control freak, in my opinion. A good leader picks a really good team, makes sure that they understand the vision,

Speaker 3 (00:20:45):

And

Speaker 2 (00:20:46):

Then lets them do their thing without micromanaging them and micromanaging them is,

Speaker 3 (00:20:51):

I think that's a good way of putting it. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:20:52):

Yeah. It's one of the quickest ways to kill your team and to kill the results. If you really, really care about doing something great, obviously no one can do anything great alone. You have to, fact of life is there's only 24 hours in a day. You have to work with other people, and if you want your vision intact, you need to make sure that those people understand the vision and feel empowered to own it. And I think that I, there's a reason why micromanagers are hated, and there's a reason for why in, I think every single book on management or leadership that I've ever read or anything I've ever learned, it's advised not to micromanage people.

Speaker 4 (00:21:41):

So

Speaker 2 (00:21:41):

It's just interesting to me that we're talking about this artist that has such an expansive vision where the artist gets involved with all the visual stuff, the video stuff, the production stuff, the crazy writing, and still lets you, for instance, do your thing.

Speaker 3 (00:21:56):

Yeah, yeah. He is one of the most, he is the most interesting person I've ever met. No question. This dude's been through stuff that he sent me videos shortly after being shot, you know what I mean? We're pretty close. And it's just like, man, yet he is the most kind at the same time, genuine, selfless kind of guy. He goes to bat to the record label to make sure I get as much money as possible from Roadrunner. You know what I mean? Things like that. It's just like he doesn't have to do this kind of stuff, and he takes care of a lot of people around him. There's in Flint, there's a lot of people that really look up to him just for what he's done and stuff. And there's a lot of people that are born into very fortunate situations that he takes care of and that he takes the time to talk to all these people and stuff.

(00:22:48):

There's like 50, 70, a hundred mayhem, what was it? Mayhem when they played Mayhem 2014, I think it was. He guessed. He guessed listed, I think 75 or a hundred people. Dude, it was so funny seeing all the TMS freaking out. What are all these people they all trying to get? It was hilarious, dude. It was so funny. But he's the type of guy, he puts everybody on the list, you know what I mean? When they were in their tour bus, they had 15, 14, 15 guys, road techs, their friends and stuff were doing teching. It was funny, but everyone got a bunk band set for him. He decided to sleep on the floor or on the couch at the back or wherever. He's the guy. He'll put his team first, but at the same time, he never compromises his vision. Just a great person. And it always bums me out. When you see people on the internet, oh, David just a tough guy. They're always talking about Flint. It's like, man, you've never been through what this dude's been through. You have nothing to talk about. You know what I mean? You don't really have anything to say. But this dude is one of the few people I've ever met that really has wow, a story to tell. And man, I got a million stories I could tell about them, that's for sure.

Speaker 2 (00:23:57):

Losers hate winners. I kind of always remind myself of that when I see people on the internet just talking shit about stuff they don't understand or people who are doing better than them taking swipes or someone who tries to do something different. For instance, we got a lot of shit when we started doing this podcast or now the mix when we started offering audio education, high level audio education for people, but affordable and it would no longer let it be a secret. It had been for so long, we got a lot of hate for it, not so much. Now people appreciate what we do, but it's a different kind of hate, obviously, than what King gets. But I've seen it and I've experienced it and shouldn't never let it bother you. I feel like if you're getting it, it means you're doing something right.

Speaker 3 (00:24:53):

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (00:24:54):

So interestingly enough, I read that you used to have a career in graphic design. Yep. I'm thinking about, you were saying that you were influenced by movies a lot, and that helped your production decisions and writing decisions on King eight one. Oh, do you think that stems from your career in graphic design?

Speaker 3 (00:25:21):

Yeah, I think so. I think visual arts and the audio arts are so related in so many different ways that I think if you're really good in one field, you just need to figure out the technicalities and you'll be good in the other field, visual design is about balance and contrast and that kind of thing, and so is audio. It's about, you know what I mean? When you're doing, if you study classic paintings like a Michelangelo piece, he'll lead your eye around the painting in a real pleasing way if you study it and just like audio, you direct the ear to follow the lead vocal, and then when the lead vocal drops out, it follows some kind of lead guitar thing and then back to the vocal, and then maybe to a drum fill. And then you're leading the listener around, and you need to layer things and stack things and balance things to make that apparent.

(00:26:09):

And not just haphazardly like a bad mix is confusing. You know what I mean? You don't know why it's confusing. It's just confusing because your ear doesn't know what to latch onto. What's the main focus and a good mix, and it hurts. Yeah, and a good mix, it just sounds natural. You just pay attention to music. You don't think about the mix. A lot of good jobs, they just kind of are there. You know what I mean? It's like, what's that classic saying? It's like an actor saying, if I'm on stage and the people are noticing a tear in my garment or a mistake in the seamstresses work, then I'm doing a really bad job. You know what I mean? So it's those little distractions and those little flaws won't matter if your main focus is on point.

Speaker 2 (00:26:48):

That's really, really interesting. We get that sometimes on nail the mix when we put up a session that comes from an album that was released and did really well, and someone points out that there was a symbol that was edited wrong,

(00:27:03):

And it's like, well, you should be as good as possible at editing for sure, because the number, in my opinion, it's the number one way to get work as an engineer when you're coming up, is get good at editing, get good at editing drums and vocals, and that is how you will get work under other producers. And that's tried and true, and I don't think that that's going to go away anytime soon. So we hammer that in to people's heads, but however, then we put out these sessions where there'll be an editing mistake or two or three in a song that got released and it kind of blows them away because, wait, I thought that you're supposed to be great at editing. How did this get by quality control on a big record? And I think that it's exactly what you just said. The priority is keeping the vision intact. And if the vision is strong enough, and if you have the big picture in mind and the song is great, and the mix serves the song, those little details are not going to be noticed. However, that doesn't mean, that doesn't mean let shit go. Obviously if you notice a problem, fix it, but what it means is that there is something more important than technical perfection.

Speaker 3 (00:28:23):

Yeah, exactly. I like having a lot of sayings. These are things I like to come up with and collect. And one thing I like to tell people is a good producer or good at engineer, editor, whatever knows when to fix mistakes. And a great producer or engineer knows when not to fix mistakes and when to leave things sit and when not to interfere with the art and the process. And that's a tricky thing. That's the thing you can only get with experience and working with a good quality artists and people that really have a vision. And it's something that even today still challenges me from time to time where I'm like, I like this flaw. I don't know, maybe it's just a personal thing, maybe it's just whatever. But my style is usually to leave in more flaws than the average person would probably care for. I mean, I like things a little more raw. I like to find a balance between a produced thing, but also raw enough where the character really comes through. And that's a tricky thing to balance, and it's something I'm always toying with, and I'm always pushing one way or the other to see what works with the band and what works with their sound.

Speaker 2 (00:29:32):

One thing I like about your productions I've checked out is that I can close my eyes and hear a band in the room. I feel like that's something that modern production has kind of lost in that when I close my eyes, I hear cannons for drums, for

Speaker 4 (00:29:51):

Instance,

Speaker 2 (00:29:53):

And it's cool. I love huge sounding drums, so that's cool. But sometimes I can close my eyes and I don't hear a kit that's glued together. I just hear individual cannons going really fast or sounding really big. I can't imagine the drummer beating the fuck out of the kit right next to my head. I hear some of your productions and I can totally, totally hear that, which I think is cool.

Speaker 3 (00:30:21):

That's cool. Yeah. Thanks, man. I'm glad

Speaker 2 (00:30:23):

It is part of what's missing.

Speaker 3 (00:30:25):

Yeah, that's something that I guess when I listen to stuff, I like it to sound kind of three dimensional, and I try to place things where, like you said, when you close your eyes, you feel like you're there. You feel like you're experiencing something rather than just being bombarded with robotic drums or robotic voice. The more things sound like robotic, the less personality and the less character you have and the less you can relate to as a human being. We're not robots. We all have flaws. I'm sure if you talk to some bands I work with, they might point out some stuff that maybe I don't do the best or whatever, and I'm fully aware and everyone has flaws, and that kind of what makes you who you are, though. I try to bring out the pros in a recording and the performance, and I try to bury the flaws, but sometimes lead them in a little bit.

(00:31:13):

But of course, when you're a vocalist or a drummer, you want to fix those, oh, I slipped up and I hit the rim of this Tom on this fill, and I'm like, yeah, yeah, that's cool. That sounds great. But they might not want to do. So I try to find a balance. I try not to push things too hard unless I really, really believe in it. It really does something to the song and to the vision of the song. But yeah, it's always trying to find a balance of that. Yeah, drummers being the shit out of drums. That's something I always encourage. Same thing with guitars. If you're playing heavy music, it should hurt. If you're playing the guitar for a few minutes, it should be painful. You know what I mean? Playing the guitar, screaming or hitting the drums, like twerk from King. He almost needed to have surgery on his arm.

(00:31:54):

He was playing so hard on the opening track of that new king record. I felt bad. I'm like, oh. I was like, dude, the hardest you've ever hit the drums in your life, you have to do it on this opening track. And you could hear the cymbals. They're just like, and that dude hits hard to begin with. He's a big dude, and he plays with marching core sticks, just these thick sticks. And yeah, he almost needed to have surgery. I think he got rehab, so his soldiers, but it's a cumulative, he is such a hard player, but I kind of felt bad. I really pushed him. But yeah, I just got done talking on a drummer yesterday. They're coming up the next few days. I'm like, if you're practicing really, really beat the crap out of these drums, if it's heavy, if you're lighter, hold off, have these dynamics.

(00:32:33):

You know what I mean? You're saying with a lot of heavy records, it's just like they give you a hundred percent heavy and intensity with the program drums all the way through the record. There's no peaks and valleys. It's just like the whole album. I've heard 30 seconds. I've heard your whole record. You have no dynamics. You need to push and pull and bring it down and bring it. What I mean, it's like the analogy I use, it's like a roller coaster that drops for three minutes straight, fun for the first 30 seconds, 10 seconds, whatever. But then you've alright. You know what I mean? There's no anticipation. It's just drop, drop, drop, drop, drop.

Speaker 2 (00:33:07):

Yeah, get me off this ride.

Speaker 3 (00:33:09):

By the time three minutes is over, you're like, get me off this ride, man. So yeah, dynamics and that's something in performance is something I'm always pushing to get more out of and capture that.

Speaker 2 (00:33:19):

Let's talk about pushing musicians, because I think sometimes guys that are less experienced don't know how to do it right, and people won't listen to them, or they don't know how to push a musician, for instance, without being a dick.

Speaker 3 (00:33:34):

Yeah, that's tricky. That's very tricky.

Speaker 2 (00:33:36):

Yeah. So let's talk about that. How do you get a guy to hit so hard that he needs rehab afterwards? How do you get inside his head?

Speaker 3 (00:33:48):

You have to build a trust with the human being that that is playing. You have to know them. When bands come in, I like to ask 'em a lot of questions. What food do they like? What music? What movies, what video games or what do you do? Are you in a relationship of any sort? What's your family? I ask a lot of questions. I try to get to know people and build trust with them.

Speaker 2 (00:34:07):

Wait, do you do this as a pre-recording interview or is it over time

Speaker 3 (00:34:13):

It's just casual As we're sending up drums and stuff, I'll ask a lot of questions just to get to know people. I'm always curious about people and what makes them tick. And when you get to know somebody and you build trust, what they like and what they don't like, and you can push people when they trust you, you can push 'em a little bit more. You can figure out what buttons like, oh, okay, this person doesn't like it when I say this or that. So maybe avoid that unless I want them to be pissed off on the take or something. So you kind of figure out how to work with them. I'm sure directors and movies do the same kind of thing when they deal with actors. What can I do to get this person riled up and pissed off, but not so much at me that it ruins the take.

(00:34:59):

You know what I mean? You have to really, it's very much a people business, figuring out how to work with them, getting torked and nail the drums, you know what I mean? And he's open to it. We've known each other for a while, so there's a lot of trust there. Same with David. I'll get him riled up and we talk shit back and forth. We really talk stuff. It's dude, some of the outtakes are just some of the most hilarious things you'll ever hear. Just we go in doing vocals and he's drinking coffee and he's flying around the room yelling and screaming shit before he even goes in the booth and he's talking shit in between takes. You know what I mean? Really getting into character and really just feeling the moment of when you're recording and obviously that comes through. I think you'd have to be completely tone deaf or deaf to emotions to not hear that. But yeah, it's building trust, building trust with artists and learning them and figuring them out. What works and what pisses them off, what gets them hyped up. They're like working with Garrett from a color morale.

(00:36:01):

I don't want to overshare anything, but my brother Garrett, he has his ups and downs. He can very much be happy one day, very much sad the next, and my brother's the extreme of that. So I know what it is dealing with people like that. And it's hard to, when they're having their bad days, it's hard work with them because they feel like nothing they're doing is working and it just all sucks and stuff. So you have to try and build people up and get 'em back in the zone. And some days you have to say, you know what? You need to deal with this on your own because maybe on a better day we'll come back and we'll feel good about it and we'll get you hyped up and stuff. And everyone, that's just one example, but everyone has their own ticks.

Speaker 2 (00:36:39):

That's actually a great example, and I want to just kind of take a second to remind our longtime listeners of how, when Joey and I talk about that, we set up a record in advance to where you could record anything at any given time. Joey and I figured this out independent of each other. It just so happens that we both did the same thing where we'll set everything up so you could record guitars, bass drums, vocals, anything at any time so that when you encounter situations like that with a vocalist who has ups and downs from day to day, sometimes multiple times a day,

Speaker 4 (00:37:24):

You

Speaker 2 (00:37:24):

Don't have to, don't feel the pressure to have to record right then and there. If it's just not a good idea. Sometimes it's a good idea for them to just go sit in a dark room and cry, and I'm being completely serious. Sometimes it is a good idea to push them to get out of their shell, but sometimes it's just better off for them to go into their head and do whatever they do and just track some bass or something.

Speaker 3 (00:37:51):

Yeah, yeah. I've kicked vocalists out of the booth before because their attitude just wasn't matching the song. I'm like, get out of there, man. You're not putting on a good performance right now. You need to get your head straight. You know what I mean? And big bands too. I'm not afraid to do that with people, to make sure that your headspace and the song and what you're saying, think about what you're saying. A lot of vocalists that I've worked with, they'll write down lyrics and they'll go and perform. It's a job or something. It's like, dude, you have to think and you have to really believe in what you're saying. And maybe that's one of the reasons why David from King does stick out is because he really does believe what he's saying, and there's no question about that. More conviction with his lyrics than anybody I've ever met. There's no question. And that shows, so when you write lyrics, if you're screaming, why are you screaming? Why? Why not just talk? Why not just record a podcast? Why not write it down? Write a blog or something. Why are you screaming it? Why are you yelling in my vocal booth? Is this the right? Yeah. That's not normal

Speaker 2 (00:38:49):

Behavior

Speaker 3 (00:38:49):

For an adult,

Speaker 2 (00:38:51):

So there's got to be a reason for it.

Speaker 3 (00:38:52):

Exactly. So what is the reason? I've told Christian bands before too. He's like, man, I'd rather you be screaming about praising Satan than going in there and give a half-ass performance about Jesus, but come on man, give it to me. Give me some passion here. You know what I mean? That's something that, it's one of those things you try to get people fired up and get them to believe in their own lyrics. You don't want to belittle them either. You don't want, it's like, man, you suck. You want to empower them. At the same time, you want to look at the lyrics and say, dude, this is cool. This is a really great line. And I could just see people, I could just picture a kid listen to this with his headphones on, eyes closed. Wow, that could really impact somebody because they can relate to it for this and this.

(00:39:32):

Think about the impact that you have as an artist and the power that you have, and really take that seriously and say it with conviction. I know you've tried a few times, it's not quite the tone that you want. Just say it, man, and really believe in it. Don't think about highs, lows, mids, and all that bullshit. Just say it how it comes natural. If you have to talk it, sing it, scream it, poop it out your ass. I don't care what it is. It has to sound appropriate. It has to just be natural. And the more you force it and like, oh yeah, this is going to sound sick with Lowe. It's like, alright man, your message obviously doesn't matter because you're just thinking about tone. You know what I mean? So I really try to work with vocalists in that way to really make sure that what they're saying and how they're delivering the performance like an actor, you know what I mean?

(00:40:19):

I tell a lot of people too, like, man, you're so caught up in the fact that this is a low, or you want it to be some say hi or something. That's cool and all. But when you watch Oscar winning performances of someone really intense, are they like doing lows or doing crazy highs with layers? No, man, it's a performance. It's heartfelt. That's why you can write a whole book about whether these awards are rigged or not. That's a whole separate story. But the fact is you can see genuine performances that are on the screen and wow. You know what I mean? Leonardo DiCaprio from Jengo Unchained, that feels pretty damn genuine. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (00:40:54):

And it is apparently the part where he slams his hand on the table. He apparently did actually cut himself open.

Speaker 3 (00:41:04):

Oh yeah. You could see him catch in the eye when he looks at it, and I'm going to keep rolling. And that's an artist right there. That's the mark of an artist, some of that. And you capture that moment and you'll never get that moment again. But the point is, he's not screaming lows or highs. He's yelling. He's sure as hell is yelling, but you're not thinking about tone. You know what I mean? You're not thinking about this low tone or this mid tone or this high tone, you just perform. You know what I mean? A performance that suits the script perfectly. And that's the way you should look at your lyrics. You should perform in a way that suits your lyrics and your intention and what you're trying to say as perfectly as possible.

Speaker 2 (00:41:40):

What's interesting is I completely agree. There's a way of tracking vocals where it does feel like it's a job where it's like, okay, we're going to do this high,

Speaker 4 (00:41:50):

This

Speaker 2 (00:41:50):

Low, or this harmony, and it just feels like whatever. It's competent par for the course. But those times where you really get that heartfelt shit out of somebody and it's just like, yes, you know it when it happens. That's the thing.

Speaker 4 (00:42:07):

You

Speaker 2 (00:42:08):

Can talk all day about how to do it, but it's one of these things where when it happens, you know it because you have this emotional reaction to it. And then when you start adding layers and harmonies and everything, it becomes an act of joy almost to start making it sound even better. Or you then know also if you're adding stuff and it doesn't work. But in those situations, people are always asking me, how do you layer vocals? How do you make the decisions? Well, if you start with something super honest that really locks in that emotion, your intuition will guide you. If you have good taste in music, that is your intuition should guide you pretty well. I know it's always worked that way for me that once we hit that really, really great honest line, the rest just kind of presents itself.

Speaker 3 (00:43:07):

Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (00:43:08):

It's like illuminating a road that was once dark kind of thing.

Speaker 4 (00:43:11):

Yep, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (00:43:12):

I guess that only comes from experience though. I think maybe, and listening. I got to say though, man, listening to a lot of music, and I also am big on cinema, so that's a big one of my influences too. But really, really trying to understand it and getting as much into understanding performances and what really I don't know comes from the heart. If you really develop a good vocabulary of that and knowledge of that from art, I think that that's where, how do I say this? That's how you train your subconscious to just tell you what's right and what's wrong when you're making these production decisions.

Speaker 3 (00:43:57):

Yeah, you're building instincts, like you're saying, doing that kind of stuff. Yeah, I guess, yeah, the cinematic thing is definitely really big with me, and I try to illustrate that point with a lot of bands I work with. I'll tell 'em, think about your songs in the cinematic context, the band, your instruments, your supporting characters. You are background set pieces. You are these grand vistas and landscapes, but your lyrics, that's the script and your lead vocalist or two, if you have two, are your main actors. And that really should be the focus and what you can do to build that up and really drive home the main message and then everything around it. You know what I mean? So that's something I really try to take things out of the musical context and put it in cinema and see, I know roughly what Andy Wallace would do in a lot of stuff. I know roughly what Butch V or some of these other guys would do musically. But I think to myself, I wonder how Kubrick would approach if he was a producer, how he would approach this song like this, or how would Ridley Scott or Tarantino, how would these guys tackle these different musical problems?

Speaker 2 (00:45:05):

Lots of racial expletives. That's how Tarantino would do it. No, I totally share that approach. How do you communicate that to a band though, who might not have your level of sophistication?

Speaker 3 (00:45:21):

Just a lot of conversation, a lot of dialogue. I like to engage with a lot of dialogue with the bands, talk about stuff, not too much, not to the point where obviously usually we work eight hour days. I think that's usually about when you're working hard, you're usually ready to be done after eight hours, but still within that still have dialogue, still have conversation, get to know what are you passionate about as a human being. Besides music, there's other things in your life that have shaped you. What did you grow up listening to as a drummer? Who are your biggest influences? Why is this drummer your big influence? And it might be not even drum related at all. It might be because he loved the vocalist in that band. And then you realize that, okay, so now that's influencing you subconsciously this way. So I try to figure out a lot of this stuff and then relate that to people when I work with them.

(00:46:05):

And a lot of them, like I said, it's about if I work with a band, I like it to be a team effort. I like to learn things from people when they come here. I always like to, if a band comes here and I don't learn something from them, it feels like a bit of a waste. But most of the time I do learn something from them, take something away, some perspective on how to approach music. So I always feel like I'm growing with each band I work with. So a team effort is always a great thing to have where they're not completely relying on you, you're not completely relying on them, but there's a good mutual trade off between learning and growing and coming up with something that's unique that suits the people that are here and their vision.

Speaker 2 (00:46:43):

So I'm sure that now that you've done a good number of records that are out there and known and done, all right, that your time from zero to being trusted is a lot shorter than it used to be. Sometimes probably you're trusted before the session even begins.

Speaker 3 (00:47:01):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:47:02):

But I'm sure it wasn't always that way.

Speaker 3 (00:47:04):

No.

Speaker 2 (00:47:05):

And so I'm wondering how did you get from Zero to Trust back before you had a track record?

Speaker 3 (00:47:12):

Well, it's one of those things like back in the day when you're starting out, you have to earn that trust. You know what I mean? I have to earn that as someone that works with audio. 2007 was the first, I think it was in the spring when I finished it. It was the first full length album I ever did that ever got released through a label. I did hobby stuff. But yeah, 2007 was the first album I put out. And there's a lot of things that I'm still proud of going back, listening to it stuff. But at the same time, I know I've grown so much as a producer, as an engineer, as just someone who just looks at the song from top down kind of thing. So I think that it's not like a switch doesn't happen one day and people just trust you immediately.

(00:47:54):

It's earned over time. It's a cumulative experience. Just like Tarantino, I'm sure when he started directing and stuff, he worked with a lot of actors. They're like, really? I mean, you have to earn, have to kind of earn, I'm sure. But nowadays, yeah, it's an honor obviously to work with someone like him. Or if Kubrick was still alive today, I mean even back in the day, but man, if he was alive today, oh my God would be, people would pay to work on his films and stuff because he's such a legend. He's such a visionary.

(00:48:23):

But over time, I'm sure even Kubrick, when he first started, I'm sure he was phenomenal. He just always seemed to have an eye for it. But you're still new and you don't have a ton of experience. You haven't really proven yourself. I think it takes, you have to put out just a body of work. It's not a fluke. If I just did one record that did well, then it's potentially to say that, oh, that band helped me out more than I helped them. And so I'm proud of pretty much all the records I've done, and I try to put 'em out there as much as possible and have a list. Yeah, go listen to these guys. They never got signed. They broke up four years ago, but they were cool. They did something. We did something interesting. So yeah, you have to earn that trust like any profession. It's one of those things. Yeah, I'm thankful that I'm in a position now where people are aware of my work and they seek me out for stuff that I've done, and they want to do something that's different than stuff I've done in the past too. And I always love the challenge. I love working with people that want their own sound. They're not just like, can we sound like in Hart's way? Can we sound like King? Can we sound like this?

Speaker 2 (00:49:25):

I'm sure you get plenty of that too. Oh,

Speaker 3 (00:49:27):

Sure. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I don't have a whole lot of respect for people that just want to copy something else. I respect the influence and you have to acknowledge your influences and you have to indulge. I think, I mean, Tarantino, I love him, but holy shit does. He indulge influences like nobody else, but he does it really well. He does it in a great way that feels not so much ripping it off as openly acknowledging this influence. And artists will do that to a certain extent. They'll really, I've worked with people that will directly take a line from another thing or a lead that's pretty much a copy for something else but unabashedly. So really just like there it is. I know here's my influence. I know that people do it more subtly. But I guess what I'm trying to say is I really respect people that want their own sound that do acknowledge those influences, but want to do something like, can we take something from here and something from this and make something a little bit new.

(00:50:19):

Take something from what you did on this record, that kind of idea. But maybe do it more raw or do it more polished or do you know what I mean? I think the biggest compliment anyone can give me about my discography is that maybe they've heard a record like, oh dude, I didn't know you did that. That sounds totally different than your typical stuff. It's good, thank you. Because that means I'm letting the artists and what they do come through more than my own T thumbprint. I always try to, like I said, find a way to help them and build them up, but also back off and make sure I'm not doing too many of the same things. I'm not just putting out a assembly line style record process, but something that really is unique to this band. Because a band having their own voice and identity is probably the most crucial thing you can have.

(00:51:05):

And a lot of that starts with the record and getting a sound that's unique and a look to go with that. And we'll talk about that too. We'll talk about music videos, we'll talk about their stage, look, we'll talk about promotional stuff and merchandise. I'm interested in all that stuff. I think it's all fascinating, and I think it's all tied together. And some bands won't quite get that. And an analogy that I like to use that helps them get that is think of Cirque de Soleil. Think of what a grand spectacle that is. And now think of them performing the same thing in a VFW hall with the lights on and jeans and band.

(00:51:39):

It would still be amazing. It would still amazing feats of acrobatics and performance art, but it just wouldn't be the same, would it? Because you are distracted by these things that don't suit the message here, the colors, the lighting, the outfits, everything, all the music. That really goes a long way to ty that vision together. And when these other elements don't work, I'm not saying that, but every band has their own look. You know what I mean? There's nothing wrong with playing live with band. It works with your sound. If you sound like Marilyn Manson and yeah, and you don't dress the part, it's kind of weird. Not that it's a bad thing, but you know what I mean. I try to open people's minds to tie in the visual element with the audio element and try to pick their brain. And once I get information from that, from them, then I'm like, okay, now I know what you guys are thinking visually, so let's figure out something audio wise that really brings that home too, so that you have one package, like a Cirque sole kind of thing where everything makes sense, the visual, the audio, your outfits, everything kind of works together.

Speaker 2 (00:52:47):

Let's talk about translating that into audio, because I think that that's probably challenging for lots of people. So let's just pick a direction for a band like King A one, oh, because that's who we were talking about. How do you go about making sonic decisions that will make it sound raw but produced and sound cinematic, but stripped down and sound evil yet commercial?

Speaker 3 (00:53:22):

Now that you put it that way, I guess that is a little bit tricky how do it is, I guess a lot of decisions that just kind of happen. Obviously the focus is on David and the performance. Any great band, any huge band, most of the focus is on that lead vocalist and their performance and what they're talking about. So what do you do to build that up, but what do you do to put that on a pedestal and stuff? One of the songs, I'm not sure if you're familiar with it, there's two title tracks in the album, lap Petite More. The first one was literally a loop that I wrote. I think it was like a 5, 7, 10 second loop that I wrote, and I put it on loop for the clean guitar. Yeah, I just put it on loop for, and then David just freestyled on top of it.

(00:54:06):

He's one of those guys that he can just, you give him a beat, he'll just go like the first album. A lot of the spoken word stuff was just to a click track. He's just like, I want a beat to work off of. And then he just go, go, go, go, go, go. It wasn't originally supposed to be for a song on the original album, but the band, we took the demos home and the band came back the next day. I just like this spoken word, I don't even want to hear any music on this. I just want spoken word. I'm like, alright, let's just do it. Who cares? So on the second one, I'm like, the spoken words are cool, but I'd like to score them now. I'd like to take what David is saying and build it up and bring it down and really try to highlight different words that he's ang.

(00:54:44):

So yeah, I just started a loop. One of the first days we recorded, we made that song and I wrote this loop and I just looped it eternally and just, he won the vocal booth and he just went off and we're like, cool. There's a lot of good material here. And then we kind of maybe cut out a few things, and then I just kind of scored it, brought it up, brought it back down where we thought it was appropriate and stuff. And yeah, there's two, the last track in the album was done the same way. Here's a quick little loop, just some generic strings. Write something to this and then we're going to score for real behind it and stuff. So I guess it's about understanding the message of the band and really empathizing with what they're trying to say and trying to do, and then build it up underneath that to really bring it out.

(00:55:28):

You know what I mean? I go back to the movie thing again, and I think about Leonardo in that scene where he's calling out the lies that have been going on where Django goes to the house there and they finally catch on to the lies that are going on. So he's freaking out and he's calling out and he's like, if there was crazy crap going on in the background that was distracting, that would be awful. I mean, if there was a flashing light, like a flickering bulb, there's a lot of things that could go wrong in a scene like that to distract you from the performance. I mean, Leo is so good. You literally could have a bomb going off in the background and use when you think about it, but there's a lot of things that could go wrong in a scene that would take you out that moment if a boom just popped down and from the top, you know what I mean? Oh, I thought this was real, and now I know it's a movie. You know what I mean? So trying to get rid of stuff like that,

Speaker 2 (00:56:20):

You'd have a Christian Bale Terminator

Speaker 3 (00:56:22):

Moment. Dude, I love him for doing that. I mean, I get it. I totally get it. Oh my God, the lighting guy walking on the set and he's freaking out. I love that clip so much. Yeah, Kristen Bill, he's awesome, dude. Dude rules. But yeah, you try to avoid things that take people out of that moment. What is the moment, what's trying to be said here? Let's elevate it and there's a million ways you could tackle it, and we just chose to do it one way. So there's a million ways you could tackle a problem like that, but you try to build up the story. Like I said, I think about it more cinematically. I think about my favorite soundtracks. I think about games like Silent Hill, Akira Yako is a huge influence on me. There's two songs on that album that are life's Not Enough to me is my personal love letter to Akira Yako, his downt tempo, chill, dark kind of electronic stuff, which then in turn, he's influenced by Twin Peaks and Angela, who's done a lot of their soundtracks.

(00:57:21):

So I love that kind of stuff, and I love thinking about music cinematically. I love putting on headphones and closing my eyes and just being taken away. Maybe it's because where I grew up in Canada, we didn't have cable tv. I didn't have a whole lot of stuff growing up. Not to the extent, let's say the guys from Flint, but I definitely feel that I grew up in a position where I didn't have a whole lot of things, but I was super happy. And the things that I had like music, I just got lost in them. I would just lay there in bed with my headphones for hours, that's it. Not reading, not on my phone, not trying to do a million things at once and doing none of them well, but just sitting there listening to music for hours and hours and hours and being lost in those soundscapes.

Speaker 2 (00:57:59):

I used to do something similar. I would do that. And then also I have these huge notebooks where I would write down every single thing I was hearing everything

Speaker 3 (00:58:09):

That's cool.

Speaker 2 (00:58:10):

And I have that for tons of orchestral pieces and albums and soundtracks where, and this was before I knew how to eq, so it was all before I knew anything technical about audio. So it was all about composition and arrangement and how they got the point across on a musical level. And I think that doing that for 50 songs or pieces really helped me make better decisions.

Speaker 3 (00:58:40):

Absolutely. Yeah. You're studying the art at that point. It's kind of like doing cover songs, like bands that do a lot of cover songs. You're going to learn about the anatomy of songs really quickly, doing that kind of stuff. I'm working with a band in January that's done a few cover songs and they've done 'em really well. And when they get here, I know I want to have a lot of discussion with them about what are you guys doing? What did you learn covering this song and this song and this song about structure, about dynamics, about vocal performance, about lyrics, about production, about how the drums flow. And most of the time people's answer are, I can't believe how simple it is because you're letting the right things breathe. It's not about complexity to me, and this is Metalheads are very guilty of this, is the more notes, the better. The more notes I could play on the guitar, the better. It's like you're only as useful as a technician. You're not an artist at that point.

Speaker 2 (00:59:38):

What's interesting about that is that the best metal bands, let's go into the tech world, for instance, the last tech album, I think to turn the metal world on its head was the Macrophages album that came out in 2004. It spawned a whole new movement of technical metal, and they never came out with another one, and it kind of hasn't been topped since then. And the writing on it's really good, and you can tell that there's an artistic vision behind it, whether you like the style or not, the copycats that came after that, that's where it starts to get debatable.

Speaker 3 (01:00:20):

Yes, yes. They see the basic, which is a lot of notes. Oh, a lot of notes equals good. No, no,

Speaker 2 (01:00:26):

You're missing the point. There are hooks for that genre.

Speaker 1 (01:00:32):

There are

Speaker 2 (01:00:32):

Hooks on that album. There are songs, there are verses and choruses, and you can tell that he was trying to get his artistic point of view across. And yeah, the copycats take the superficial side of it. Like you said, they hear lots of notes and think that that's what it's about when that's not what it was about at all. And you can tell, like we were talking earlier, there's an emotional reaction that people have to stuff that's real.

Speaker 3 (01:00:58):

Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:00:59):

And with that neph phages album, man, again, I'm pointing them out because I want people to realize that we're not saying that being technical is a bad thing we're saying is that being just technical is a bad thing. The Macrophages album turned people on their heads and they still listen to that because it was real. And part of the technicality was just the delivery vehicle for the art. But I think a lot of people just don't connect that it's not the records that have come afterwards in that genre that are still being listened to quite as much, and there's an artistic reason for that.

Speaker 3 (01:01:43):

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, I'll take emotion. You know what I mean? If you're going to do simplicity, but emotional merit or complexity with no emotional, yeah, no question. Always the simplicity with room to breathe. And some people will try to overstep their bounds as musicians as well to really try to push themselves on something and they're barely able to hit all those nails. It's like, man, you're just getting the job done. You need to be able to, what are you doing with that note when you hit it? You know what I mean? It's about how that note's been played literally billions of times in the last decade alone. What are you doing with that note when you hit it? What are you doing? You know what I mean? We're all hitting, there's only so many notes in a scale, you know what I mean? So what are you doing with the notes?

(01:02:29):

What personality are you putting on it? It's just like a script. Again, a really great script. Again, I'll go back to Tarantino because stuff is always so script heavy. It doesn't use a whole lot of words that we don't, no big words or anything like that. It's words we've used before, but it's the way it's put together. It's the same thing with music, you know what I mean? You don't have to reinvent the wheel, but putting your own spin on it, putting your own character on it and letting your personality shine through and not being afraid of that is how you develop your own identity as an artist and as a band. And that to me is the most important thing about a band is having your own identity. It's not, like I said, playing a ton of notes. It's not playing too little notes or too many or whatever.

(01:03:08):

It's about having an identity. What are you doing differently? That's different than all so many of these other bands. They're doing very similar things. A lot of that is just personality and just letting your character show through on a lot of stuff and figuring out how to do that. Again, that's one of those things. I think it just takes time to figure that out. And I think maybe another thing, I think David actually said this in some interviews somewhere, I thought it was a really good point, is that nowadays when it's so easy with the internet and with recording, it's very easy to get a great sounding record out very quick before you know who you are as an individual and as an artist, and you're signed, so now you don't really have an identity. You have a great decent sounding record, you've got some decent songs, and the record labels are desperate enough that they'll sign you because it's selling a little bit, but you don't have an identity yet.

(01:03:56):

So now you grow and you alienate your fan base, or you don't grow and you stagnate in this non identity phase. It's a tricky thing to do. And I think a lot of bands, everything's always speeding up, and it's cliche for the old person to say, slow down a little bit. But yeah, developing who you are, I guess it's kind of like a relationship too, or getting married if you don't know who you are yet as a human being and what you want to do, and you have a lot of personality kinks you're trying to work out, and then it can be tough to be in a friendship or a marriage or anything like that. So sitting down with yourself and looking in the mirror, honestly, and figuring out who you are as an artist, as a person, as a member of your family, as a member of your friend group, addressing your flaws, embracing some of them and figuring out what your strengths are too, go a long ways in being a better friend.

(01:04:43):

You know what I mean? Being a better artist. But like I said, yeah, it's so easy to put out a decent record that capitalizes on some kind of trends, like, oh man, silent planet's blowing up. And then some of their bank can come along and kind of try to copy them, and then they get signed by a smaller label. And then, well, what do you have? Then I, and you might be at the right place at the right time and have a good manager or a good decent label, you know what I mean? If you're lucky and you get a good tour and all of a sudden as a second rate silent planet, all of a sudden you're doing really well because people love the band, and I just want more of that band and these guys fit that bill, and then you're locked into that.

(01:05:22):

So it's a band that comes up that's a fan of other bands, and they haven't really developed who they are yet. But I guess, I mean, that's really been a problem as long as music has been around anyhow. But that's something that definitely with is aided by and sped up by the recording process and the record label scenario that happens these days and the internet and how fast things move. So I guess the point I'm trying to say, there's a lot of bands that come up, get signed, put up records that really don't have themselves figured out yet. I think that's a problem. In addition, of course, what we were saying earlier about overly edited, overly polished music because, and they're more susceptible to that, to their own flaws, when you don't know who you are, you're more sensitive to that. So you're more likely to say, Ooh, edit that. Tune my vocals, edit all my drums, because you're not confident in who you are. You're not sure of who you are. So there's a lot of little elements I think, that bring that all together and make a lot of records that are just,

Speaker 2 (01:06:18):

Yeah,

Speaker 3 (01:06:18):

Just don't really resonate with anybody.

Speaker 2 (01:06:21):

Well, I think that you just kind of put a really good explanation on exactly how the bar is lowered these days, because a lot of guys do say that the bar is lowered, and I agree, I've been saying it for years, but you can make a superficial argument where you say, well, people have more technical skills now. How is the bar lowered when drummers are playing faster than ever? How is the bar lowered when the low end extends further than it's ever extended? And if you put up a metal mix from now versus 10 or 20 years ago, now is going to win. So how can we say the bar is lowered? And I think it's because what we're missing is the maturity that artists develop when they find their own sound

Speaker 4 (01:07:11):

And

Speaker 2 (01:07:11):

Put their own point of view out there. Exactly. That's where things are getting lost. And that also, I mean, I don't think that the technology side of downloading, there's anything we can do about that, that genie's out of the bottle that's over. However, I do think that if there were more artists out there that had a more defined point of view and were more emotionally honest, that sales wouldn't be as traumatized, they wouldn't be as gutted. And the proof of that is when you look at artists like at Dele

(01:07:44):

For instance, that's your proof that you can get out there still, and if you do something honest and awesome, the marketplace will respond. Maybe it won't be like the old days, but it doesn't have to be as bad as it is now. Yeah, absolutely. Hey guys, Al here, and I just want to take a moment to talk to you about this month on Nail the Mix. If you're already a subscriber, thank you so much. We appreciate the hell out of you. But if you're not and you want to seriously up your mixing game, then you might want to consider Nail the Mix. This month we have a guest mixer, Mr. Kane Chico, and he will be mixing Face Everything and Rise by Papa Roach. And when you subscribe, you get the multi-tracks that he recorded and produced, you download them, you can enter a mix competition with prizes by Mc DSP.

(01:08:42):

You get an Emerald Pack version six, that's like a $1,600 software package, plus the winner also gets one year of everything bundle from Slate. So really, really good prize package for our mixed competition winners. We've also got a second place package that rules, and yeah, if you join Nail the Mix, you also get bonus access to our exclusive community, which is other audio professionals and aspiring professionals just like you who just dork out on this stuff all day and night and love spreading knowledge. It's troll free. And so whether you knew or experience, it's a great place to just come talk about the thing we all share, which is a love for audio. So once again, if you haven't subscribed to Nail the Mix yet, this might be a great month to try. You get to learn how Cane Chiko mixed the number one single face everything and Rise by Papa Roach, just go to nail the mix.com/papa Roach. That's nail the mix.com/papa Roach. Alright, so I want to change directions a little bit. We've been talking about art for a while. I want to actually talk a little bit about your technical recording process. Sure.

(01:10:05):

We haven't even touched on that, and I know our listeners, they're going to skewer me if I don't at least ask you some questions about this. So first of all, let's do a rapid fire segment. A rapid fire segment is where I'm going to just throw out something like an instrument or something, and you just talk about whatever comes to mind first. You don't have to give a detailed answer. You could give a detailed answer. You could say something like, I don't fucking do that, or whatever. Just whatever comes to mind. Sure. So we'll start with that. So snare bell

Speaker 3 (01:10:44):

Brass or black beauty or something with wood hoops on it. I just recorded the ghost bath record and he had these wooden hoops, I think it was an SJC, and it sounded really cool. Every time I always feel nervous. I'm a drummer and I see the wooden hoops and I think, man, these rim shots are just going to destroy it, but they don't. And I just realized that I have the tape deck out because we were doing some experimenting with reel to reel stuff. They just actually left yesterday. We just wrapped up their record. But yes, there black beauty. I have a pork pie, big black brass, which is a great knockoff of a black beauty for a fraction of the price. I've used that in a lot of records and it sounds so different. It's so versatile. You can do everything with it. You throw on different head, different tuning, and it sounds like a totally different drum.

(01:11:34):

Tamma bell brass snare. That's on my dream gear list that one day. I would like to pick one up. But yeah, and this SJCI recorded, it sounded really cool too. Oh yeah. And there's a band called Port Out who made a snare drum out of a tom. I think it was like a 14 by 14 Tom, and it sounded so awesome. It sounded so crazy. So deep. Yeah, snare drum. Okay, snare drum is the most important instrument on an album. There we go. I've said it. The reason I feel it that way is because you hear it over and over and over and over. The same note. Over and over. A guitar can change notes, A guitar can bend, a guitar can change effects like delays, choruses, high gain, low gain, all these different things. And you can do that with a snare, absolutely. But a snare is a backbone of the record with a kick drum.

(01:12:22):

With drums, to me are just the backbone of the record to begin with. They glue it all together. They tie in, they give it the beat. A rhythm is the most basic form of instrumentation. You go back to old tribes and if you study old music, ancient early human history, it's rhythm, what do you call it? Most language is rhythm. Some languages and cultures use pitch, but most of them are rhythm based. And for me, the snare is the kick drum. You can't hear the kick drum on your phone. You can't hear the kick drum on your cousin's shitty boombox or your crappy pack in earbuds. But you can always see the snare no matter where you hear it. So to me, getting a snare tone that's good, that cuts through that isn't distracting, is a great thing. And if we're talking about snares, I have to bring up Saint Anger.

(01:13:10):

I have a love hate relationship with that snare right now. I think I love it. I think I really love that snare. Not so much for the tone of it, but for the ballsy give no shit attitude and fighting. It must've taken to keep it on the album. I dunno if it was just Lars alone or if the band backed to man, because you have to think about all the a and r people and the labels and everybody involved, the engineers, the producers, the techs that were in the studio, you think somebody would've said, Hey, that's snare. I dunno. And somebody fought for it. Somebody really fought for that ringy ass snare. And it's the bastard snare of the music world and the fact that it made through such adversity, and here it exists as the most annoying snare that people who don't know about recording know, say anger snare. There's something about that. First, I hate it, but now after all these years, I kind of love it. I kind of love the story of that snare,

Speaker 2 (01:14:06):

Just that it even happened.

Speaker 3 (01:14:07):

Yeah, the fact that they were so confident in this just ringy ass annoying snare that they left it on there and I kind of like it. I kind of like the attitude. If nothing else, I like the attitude of it, and I like the confidence someone had. I'm assuming Lars, in that that was a good idea, even though maybe I don't think it was a good idea. The fact that you're confident in something that's so glaringly obvious and perhaps distracting, I have to respect that at the end of the day, I have to respect it. But yeah, snares to me, arguably the most important instrument on, let's say an album that has a lot of snare drum, like a live snare drum. If you're doing hip hop and you got the little 8 0 8 snare, not terribly important if that's the sound you're going for. But in a lot of the heavy music scene, when you want those big, punchy drums, the snare in those particular mixes to me is probably the most important of the instruments. Because if it's not right, you hear it over and over and over and over like St. Anger and it drives you nuts. You know what I mean? You can have a okay guitar tone and a balling ass drum tone, and you have a good record. You can't have a great guitar tone and a wimpy drum tone. It sounds weak. So to me, that's the argument that the snare is the most important instrument. So I will end my rant on snares right there, but I could go off.

Speaker 2 (01:15:19):

Good rant. Alright. Acoustic guitar and a dense mix.

Speaker 3 (01:15:23):

Ooh, tricky

(01:15:25):

Nightmare. I'm trying to think of word association as word cloud. That's a good one. I hope the composition, is it there for the right reason? Do we need acoustic guitar here? Sometimes you just need to feel it. Sometimes it just adds a little bit of attack when you have a dense mix, like you're saying, well, maybe with distorted guitars and maybe some of the articulation is lost. So maybe an acoustic guitar that only if I said, Hey listen, there's an acoustic guitar. Put your ear next to the speaker. Put on headphones. Okay, there it is. Maybe that's the right choice for something like that because it brings out articulation because it's no gain on it. There's no coloring of the sound. It's just an acoustic instrument, a human being performance. The more gain you throw on top of instrument, the less human it becomes. It's a little tricky saying that because you got to think of Hendrix and you got to think of solos and stuff, but it's more human for sure to have less gain between you and or less effects between a human being, performance and the sound. But anyhow, that's a whole other thing. Acoustic guitar and a dense mix, I would say. Yeah, to bring out articulation and some percussion. If it's the right composition, if it's someone shredding, oh boy, I dunno.

Speaker 2 (01:16:35):

Yeah, good luck on that one. Yeah,

Speaker 3 (01:16:37):

Case by case I guess.

Speaker 2 (01:16:38):

Alright, lead vocals, males screaming.

Speaker 3 (01:16:42):

Again, scream for the right reasons. What are you doing? What are the lyrics? What is it over? What's the music doing behind it? When you ask me these, are you thinking technicality? Like the recording process? Isn't that what you're, are we talking recording process?

Speaker 2 (01:17:00):

Well, I mean this is all about you, so it's kind of what comes first. If you have any recording, normally people give us gear answers, but I'm really enjoying your answers.

Speaker 3 (01:17:12):

Yeah, I guess I don't think I do anything crazy gear wise. We can back up a little bit. For snare beta 52, SM 57, the standard answers, the engineering process. Like I said, I don't think I do anything crazy with that. Nothing that would shatter anybody's dreams or, but some great revelation to them. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (01:17:33):

No man, I'm loving your answers, man. You're a true producer. I like how you think.

Speaker 3 (01:17:38):

Let's see. Snare shells. A lot of times I use API. No kick and snare. I like to use a Neve like a 10 73. I think that's a classic sound. It's tried and true. It does. What I like it to do. API is great for bringing down symbols, but drums, yes, snare. I like to use a Neve. I like to use some Apollo. Some of their UAD plugins are great, great compressors, some gating and stuff. Like I said, nothing crazy. To me that stuff is the engineering side is you want to be good at it. They're just tools. Yeah, they're tools, exactly. It's like what kind of hammer did you use? What kind of paintbrush did Michelangelo use to do the Sistine Chapel? That's the secret. No, man. No, but anyhow, but I'm sure he did use a decent brush. He's not going to use a piece of crap or a decent ink too and decent paint since that. So I shouldn't undermine that. But I guess my brain isn't too focused on that kind of stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:18:33):

Like I said, I love your answers. I more and your answers are unique because lots of guys jump straight to the gear. You're giving us artistic answers and let's just roll with

Speaker 3 (01:18:44):

That. I didn't even think about it until you said lead screaming vocal. I'm like, what should I think about that? I'm like, oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. Okay. But as far as technicality, yeah, SM seven B, I got this C four 14. I have an old Sputnik, which is made by M Audio, which I kind of like that Mike actually. That might be the one. I don't want to say it's a secret sauce. I've used that mike with David a bunch, even though he loves the seven B, I think because Michael Jackson is famous for using it. So he loves Michael Jackson. So he's always, I want to use the seven b. I'm like, yeah, man,

Speaker 2 (01:19:13):

Who doesn't love

Speaker 3 (01:19:13):

Michael Jackson? So yeah, seven B, C four, 14 M audio, Sputnik. I like the sound of that mic. It reminds me a lot of a U 47 or U 87. I've rented a U 87 before and those power supplies are a nightmare. I thought about buying one, but then I think back to all the headaches I had using it, and the Sputnik is a great slightly lesser substitute, but they used, I think they bought World War II peanut tubes from the two A radios that they use in the field. I was reading some stories somewhere, I dunno why they don't advertise that more, but they bought these old radio tubes from the forties, new old stock. The Army has millions of 'em apparently, and they put 'em in these Sputnik mics and it just has, I dunno if that's part of the secret that makes them sound that way, but they have a great rich sound, and it's the first mic I ever bought for the studio when I'm like, okay, I have a little bit of money from this band that I don't know know that I'm recording, which is the first project I ever did something like that besides just for friends.

(01:20:10):

So a band comes to me, I don't really know, and they heard something I did. Here's a little bit of money. This is a good mic. And I keep going back to that mic. I love it a lot. I did a lot of research and I still go back to it. But yeah, the standard answers for vocal mics and then again, Neve. I like the sound of Neves. I've rented again, I had some projects where I rented from Dreamhire out in New York. They rent all kinds of vintage gear, and I remember really loving the sound of those Neve 10 73. So I bought a couple and a distress, and then maybe I'll hit with an LA two A at the end. Nothing revolutionary. I looked the LA six 10, if they have a bright voice, a little harsh, it kind of darkens it up a little bit. The Neve can be very bright, very, very sizzly on the top end. No, nothing revolutionary, nothing that should shock anybody.

Speaker 2 (01:20:57):

It's about what you

Speaker 3 (01:20:57):

Put into it, in my opinion. It's performance. Performance. I would record on this phone a genuine performance and make that work in a mix. Then the best gear in the world all day, every day, every single time. Like some shitty MP 360 4 kilobit per second if it's a good performance rather than pristine all day. That's just the way I look at it.

Speaker 2 (01:21:17):

I totally agree. And we've had other guys come on and talk about that. Zach Sini talked about recording someone on a mountain with an mbox dude. Yeah. They used an SM seven B as well, but still it was outdoors with an mbox shittiest converters ever. And it still made it to a number one record.

Speaker 3 (01:21:39):

Exactly, exactly. I've downloaded so many sessions, classic sessions from the Doobie Brothers, and I put some in my own mixes online. Like Stevie Wonder, you listen to a queen, you listen to these session files like, oh man, they are just gnarly. And people coughing in the background and there's bleed everywhere. And it doesn't matter because the song's great. It all comes down to great songs, man. It all comes down to great songs, great performances, great lyrics, all that kind of stuff. Engineering is important, absolutely. But don't lose sight of the main idea. And to me, art is all about ideas. The good ideas.

Speaker 2 (01:22:15):

Well, the thing is are still using 10 70 threes and stressors and stuff. It's not like you're just plug it into an Octa pre,

Speaker 3 (01:22:25):

Right? I'd like to sound as good as possible, at least my preference on the way in so that at least we're getting that covered and then we don't have to worry about that so that when we do record and we capture great performance, we're not like, oh, I was running it through an art. I was running it through a PreSonus or something.

Speaker 2 (01:22:43):

Yeah, I think there's a lot to be said for that. You're not wasting an inordinate amount of time worrying about this stuff, but you have enough of the good gear to where you're at least getting it good quality so that you can focus on the art, which is the actually important part. But even though the art is your priority, you're not skimping on the signal path.

Speaker 3 (01:23:12):

Absolutely. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:23:14):

I just want to make that distinction clear to the listeners. You're still taking care to make sure that that part is right, even if you think that it's secondary to the art.

Speaker 3 (01:23:25):

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. You shouldn't have to think. You don't want to think about that. I don't want to go through and Oh, I have to EQ the vocals. They're really unpleasant because I don't have a crappy converter, or I have an interface that's just isn't working, or the preamp isn't right, or I chose the wrong mic, and now they have, like I said, their S are super harsh, and I use really on top of that, a bright preamble and a bright mic, and now I'm fighting semblance the whole album. You know what I mean? You don't want to do that. Then it becomes distracting because some vocalists just have a natural piercing s sound, and you have a great performance also have, you know what I mean? It can be distracting. So you don't want to have that. You want to make those decisions right on the way in.

(01:24:10):

And a lot of times the vocalists, they'll hear that the themselves, I'll try this Mike. Oh yeah, I like the sound of that one. This one don't like it. And the C four fourteens got for patterns on it, and I'm not too particular. I let them cycle around what sounds best to you? Oh, figure eight. Oh, all right, well, let's run with it. You know what I mean? If you like the sound of it, even though I wouldn't choose that, but you like the way your voice sounds and it's not going to make my life a nightmare. Let's run with that. Then there's a lot of decisions that I'll do like that guitars, people are bringing in a guitar and like, oh God, they love it. They love the way it plays. They try a better guitar. I got a few here and they can't play as well on it. Well, let's just use the shitty one because you can perform better with it and you're more comfortable with it, and I'll do fix some EQing and fixing it boast.

Speaker 2 (01:24:54):

Well, in that case, the whole tone is in the hands thing comes into focus like, yeah, we're getting the best di possible. You do want to optimize the guitar and the pickups and the cable and the strings and all that stuff. However, all of that goes to shit if the guitar player can't play.

Speaker 3 (01:25:12):

Right.

Speaker 2 (01:25:13):

So the very first thing you need to make sure of is that the guitar player is comfortable. And this has happened to me on quite a few records. Yep, me too. Right now, the contortionist is coming to mind where those guys had these Ivan as guitars that Ivan has gave them, and I had an Ivan deal at the time, and I had way better Ivan as guitars than they did, and so I wanted them to use mine. I know you guys are into your guitars, but it's the same brand. If you're going to be loyal to the brand, just use some of mine or some Suk offs. I was with OV at that point in time, and he also had an IVANEZ endorsement, so we had 17 ivanez guitars that were better than the bands, but they did not feel comfortable with our guitars, and so we went with the lesser guitars, and no one has ever complained about the guitar tone on that record. People actually loved it, and a lot of it has to do with the fact that those guys felt at home playing on their mediocre line Ivanez guitars as opposed to our top of the line ones, and the record didn't suffer. Now,

(01:26:25):

Could it have been 5% better if they had used one of mine? Maybe arguably, maybe. But then again, if they weren't comfortable, maybe it would've been 20% worse

Speaker 3 (01:26:36):

Because

Speaker 2 (01:26:36):

Of that.

Speaker 3 (01:26:37):

So

Speaker 2 (01:26:40):

All these things that we always talk about about optimizing your signal path, it all goes to shit if the player can't hang with it, and also the

Speaker 3 (01:26:49):

Most important part of the chain. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (01:26:50):

Yeah. Another good example is people always talk about thicker strings, better tone, but what if the dude can't play on thicker strings?

Speaker 3 (01:26:58):

Dude, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:26:59):

Then you're going to have the exact opposite.

Speaker 3 (01:27:01):

Yeah, because some guys will come in with these thin strings and it's just like, Ooh, this is going to be a tone nightmare or a tuning nightmare because I want you to play hard now on these chords, and sometimes that can be cool, and a lot of times it can be a tuning nightmare. Well, we just take more time to tune. That's fine. And some guys love playing on thick strings, man. What is Andrew Beal from King, I think plays on, what's his top string? 70 something, 76, 78. And he plays a normal scale, EC 1000. So it's like nothing moves, nothing moves when he slams elevator cables. Yeah. Really. So tuning's awesome with that. I mean, it's great, but wow, you got to have fingers of steel to do any bends on that thing.

Speaker 2 (01:27:44):

Okay, so speaking of that, next item in Rapid Fire is heavy rhythm guitar, heavy rhythm guitar,

Speaker 3 (01:27:51):

Man. Let's see. I like to do a lot of different things. I like to use everything, every tool out there, because everything, depending on what the sound the band is going for will dictate how I approach it with In Hearts Wake. I think I did some pod stuff with that because it just sounded to me right with the mix, and it just at that point in time, in my Headspace and what the band liked, that just sounded best. I've done a lot of stuff on the Kemper. The New King record was on Kemper, the new, those who Fear I just did is on Kemper. It sounded good. We liked the way it sounded, and I've done Live Amps with him before. Ghost Bath that was just here, I wanted a different vibe. We just did live guitars. No DI's, no nothing, just like old fashioned.

(01:28:36):

Pull the guitar into the amp, get a really long speaker cable and put the amp a few doors down and just jam it and no looking back kind of thing. So it really depends. But that works with Ghost Baths kind of sound that works with them. That wouldn't necessarily work with other bands that I've worked with. So to me, it's all about the right tools for the right job. But I love the Kemper. It's cool. It's a great tool. Pod can still be good. It's a little digital, but sometimes that's the sound that you want. I just did a record for Alistair Hennessy that's coming out soon, and what did we do? We plugged in guitar to do something. Oh, yeah. I wanted to run it through an art pre-amp, just a cheap pre-amp di. Just because? Just because, and it was on what happened now?

(01:29:24):

It was on the wrong bit rate setting. We were recording at like 96 and it was set to 44 1 or something, and it was out of sync and made this weird digital bit crusher clippy sound. I'm like, this is cool. We'll just use this as a lead. They loved it, and it's like, that's a weird sound that I've never realized, I think can make, I think just because it was set off. So in a situation like that, you'll do something like that too. But yeah, with guitars, I try to use, I got guitar rakes, sometimes I'll use that. So I'll use everything from digital to Kemper to live stuff, to recording live with di to amping later. That's another thing I'll do. Most of the time, I'll record di so that way if later on we want to Reamp, we have that option. But most of the time when I record guitar, I like to get the tone as close to the final as possible.

(01:30:11):

I tell 'em, we're dialing this tone. Let's dial in one that you're willing to keep and live with because it's going to affect performance. When you love the guitar tone, whether or not I love it, it doesn't matter whether the band, if the guitarist loves the guitar tone, he's playing it, he's going to play better. She's going to play better playing this guitar tone because they could feel it better that way. Just same way with vocals. I like to get all my preamps, all my compressors dialed in and print as we record with compressors and everything, because they're going to hear that and they're going to play off of that. So yeah, with guitar, try to nail it on the way in. But if not, most of the time I like to do di e for amping later either, and I will reamp, I'll also reamp with I pod or with live or a combination. It really depends on how I'm feeling or what I'm into that particular month.

Speaker 2 (01:30:58):

I like that, man. The whole playing favorites about guitar gear really bugs me. It's like you're not choosing a sports team, dude. It's just a

Speaker 3 (01:31:08):

Tool. I used to be that way. I used to be, I was such a hardcore kid. All live drums, all live guitars, you know what I mean? Minimal punch ins on vocals. I was very much a purist that way and for some things, sure, that's a great way to approach it. But not all things, you know what I mean? I like to work with all kinds of stuff. I've been doing a lot of hip hop this year. I've been doing, I did some country stuff and jazz stuff last year. I love it. I love the variety because it gives you a chance to bust out new brushes out of your toolkit and work differently and think about things differently. You're going to mix jazz drums way differently than you're going to mix a battle costume drums or something. You know what I mean? So it's fun, it's great, and it makes me learn from these different drummers.

(01:31:52):

That's cool. What he does on the jazz thing. I can maybe bring that over here. I mean, directly, there's a jazz song on the King record that I got some ideas from the jazz record that I did. I'm like, this is cool. I never thought about doing this kind of thing on the drums, but this is very much a jazz drummer kind of thing to do, and hip hop and stuff as well. I listen to a lot of hip hop these days, so that's obviously very prevalent on the king mixtape and on the new record where we talking about guitar. Yeah, like you're saying, choosing a sports team. Use the right tool for the job, and it doesn't matter if it's digital, it doesn't matter if it's live, whatever it is, if it sounds good and it works with what the artist, what the band's vision is trying to get across, then that's the right tool. I don't care if it's a little pocket hip thing or if you're just running through your phone on one of those cheap $2 amp sims. If it sounds right and it has the right sound for the vision, then that's what you should use.

Speaker 2 (01:32:43):

Totally agree with you there across the board. I agree with you on this stuff. I wish more people thought like this music would be better. I can't tell you how much I used to feel like I was part of the problem when I wouldn't take that approach of using what's right for the part. So yeah. Alright. How about

Speaker 3 (01:33:07):

Overheads? Overheads, man, I just use these cheap octave Russian made octopus that I got years ago. I've never found I had a problem with them, wly symbols. I've used some really nice vintage gears, some coals and stuff, and to me, the biggest problem with overheads are wly symbols, and that's a symbol fault. Not so much a mic fault to me. The room you recording obviously factors in, but sometimes with overheads, I'll do XY pattern if I'm feeling it for whatever reason. Sometimes I'll use a traditional mic in groupings from the top down. Sometimes I'll angle it to try and get a high hat out of my line of sight or line of ear shot, because high hats are always barging in where they're not welcome. I'm trying to think. Overheads. Yeah, API like the sound of the API. Sometimes the Neve, if it's really dark symbols, I really like dream symbols for some reason. I am not endorsed by them or anything, but I've recorded them a handful. I've

Speaker 2 (01:34:06):

Never even heard. I've never even heard of them.

Speaker 3 (01:34:07):

I've recorded 'em a handful of times now. I did it on the Browning record and on Alistair Hennessy, and I think there's one other drummer that brought in some dream symbols, and they're super dark, and I love them. I seriously need to talk to 'em about getting an endorsement because I love, I never have to worry, but most of the time you never have to worry about symbols being too dark. That's almost never a problem. It's always too bright. It's always

Speaker 2 (01:34:28):

Because I like, no, it's all about which frequencies do I need to cut.

Speaker 3 (01:34:31):

Yeah. And most of the time I like getting more of my drums for the overheads. I like the snare cutting through, but when the symbols are so brittle or harsh or just way too hypey in the top end, I can't get that without bringing a lot of symbols along with it. So those dream symbols, it also helps that those drummers are really good, the ones that brought in the dream symbols, but I felt like, wow, they're wide sounding and they're just huge. I love it. They're really easy to work with. Maybe that's something I need to look into, but overheads, yeah, octaves

Speaker 2 (01:34:59):

Sounds like something I

Speaker 3 (01:35:00):

Need to look into. Yeah, no, seriously. They recorded beautifully for me, and they're not a, well, like you said, they're not a well-known symbol company at all, but they just sound dark and they sound great. But yeah, overheads, just those simple pencil condensers. I've rented a few others. I've used calls. I've used, I forget what it was, maybe the mic. It's got two capsules on it. I think a KG mix it. It's got a big old knob that's like a pattern selector. I know what you're talking about. It's just a big, and you'll just put it overhead, and then it's like a, yeah, the name just gave me, I know exactly what you're talking about. I use that. I rented that for the first King record. I thought it sounded fine to me. Not marginally better than the king record I just put out with the octopus.

(01:35:41):

So it's just like, again, so much of the tone is in the symbols, in the room, in the player, and hiding the flaws of your room. For example, I don't have the greatest room in the world. I've recorded in garages, and it's funny to see labels come out. Like Roadrunner will come out and be like, this is where you record the drums. You need to get the measurements of this room, man, it sounds so great. It's like, no, this is a shitty room. I just figured out a way to make it sound good and try to hide the flaws and put up dampening where it needs to happen, and then EQ it a little bit in the mix to kind of push that away. So yeah, overhead still, octopus again, they're one of the first overheads. I love 'em. They just, for whatever reason, they just sound good to me. I don't find anything wrong with them, and I've used some of the best mics in the world for overheads, and I wouldn't, maybe if I had unlimited income, I'm met, buy a few more, but to me it's not really worth upgrading them right now. I've never had anyone complain to me and say, man, those overheads, the album sounds great, but those overheads are just not for me. So I dunno. Not expensive mics, that's for sure.

Speaker 2 (01:36:39):

No, I know they're not. I used to have some and I never actually used them.

Speaker 3 (01:36:44):

Yeah, they've treated me well. I've had 'em for like 5, 6, 7 years now. Yep. Been using them ever since.

Speaker 2 (01:36:50):

All right, so that's it for the rapid fire, which wasn't really rapid fire, but your answers No, no. Your answers were great. Thank you for going into so much detail. So we are coming to the point where I need to wrap this up, but one more question that I have, and we ask this of everybody, which is, do you have any advice for people that are trying to come up now in 2016, 2017 in production? What would be some advice that you'd give for them? Producers, audio engineers,

Speaker 3 (01:37:25):

I would say don't go to school for it. I'm the advocate that says, don't go to school for anything art related almost ever, unless you have the money to drop it and you just want to do it for fun. Don't ever think that going to school will help you at all. Especially now, I learned by the seat of my pants. I never went to school for it. I never looked up anything online until, honestly, within the last four or five years I started, oh, okay. I wonder how people do this or that. Most of it, it'll take you a lot longer, but you'll remember what you've learned and you're going to develop more of your individual voice as an engineer, as a producer. So school to me, there's a lot of information you can get there. That's good. I'm sure I'll get a lot of slack for telling kids to quit school.

Speaker 2 (01:38:09):

No, I always tell 'em to go to school for something real if they're going to go to school,

Speaker 3 (01:38:13):

Right? Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:38:14):

A real job. Get a business. Well just get a business degree

Speaker 3 (01:38:18):

And

Speaker 2 (01:38:18):

Then learn audio anyways, because the business degree will serve you in your audio career. Absolutely. If you're going to get a degree, get a useful degree.

Speaker 3 (01:38:29):

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I think that, and I took a lot of art classes in school and I took some music classes too, and the art classes. It's just one of those things, you have a lot of dream, a lot of people who like the idea of being an artist, like the idea of being an engineer, but they don't want to put in the work, and so much of this job is wanting to do it. If you have to drag yourself to school, you're not going to make it. You have to be already doing this in your free time. You should be, you know what I mean? First record I did. I had one SM 57, and I literally plugged it directly into my computer from a quarter inch, what was it? An X lr, to an eighth inch to a quarter inch right into my sound card.

(01:39:08):

And you can make records doing that stuff, especially now. Holy cow. You have so many great cheap plugins at your disposal. It's insane. And free ones, you can make a record out of free ones. You have Reaper, you can use that for free. That's what I use. I love it. And I would say, yeah, just get your hands dirty. You know what I mean? Really get some hands-on experience because what you learn in school are the fundamentals, the most generic possible fundamentals. And even those can be, I've worked with producers before. I worked with another producer on one of the records that I did, and we had an LA two A and I was messing around with it and he's like, oh yeah, never use more than the three decibels of reduction on an LA two A. I'm like, why not? Why? Where would you hear that if I slammed this thing and that needle's buried all the way left for the entire take, and it sounds cool, why are you stuck on that rule?

(01:40:01):

And I'm afraid that that's what happens when you go to school. You've paid a lot of money. You want to justify just like gear. You want to justify using it, and you become tied to these rules. And I'm definitely all about not having rules when it comes to music or anything aren't related. There's a lot of fundamentals you can learn, but a lot of it's so basic. It's pretty easy learning online. I would say if I had one regret in life, it's that I went to school for art, I wish I wouldn't have gone. I accumulated a lot of debt doing it. It didn't help me anything. I didn't get a job from it. I didn't really learn a whole lot. Art history was cool. That was a lot of fun. But fundamentals, again, if I had the internet, I could have looked at all this stuff up pretty easily.

Speaker 2 (01:40:43):

And I guess services like nail the mix didn't exist back then.

Speaker 3 (01:40:47):

Exactly, man. What a resource that is. You know what I mean? There's so much out there that you don't need to go to school, save that. Oh my gosh. If I could have get that money back and put that towards gear, that would be wonderful. But I would advise people to do exactly that. Save the money, put it towards gear. Buy either really cheap gear or really expensive top end gear. Don't buy the stuff in the middle. You know what I mean? Get the cheap stuff that works or get the really good stuff that's pretty much top of the line that you absolutely love and wouldn't ever compromise. To me, a 10 73 is my favorite preamp of all time. I wanted that preamp. I don't want to ever get a knockoff of it. Like, oh, I wonder if I want the sound that I want. You know what I mean? Or I'll have something cheap. Plus

Speaker 2 (01:41:26):

It'll keep its resale value

Speaker 3 (01:41:28):

If that ever comes up. Exactly. So save your money. Buy good gear. The gear that you like, the gear. That sounds good to you. Do a lot of research. Oh my gosh. I just think back to when I was doing this stuff and record. I remember renting gear in Canada from Mother's music. I would go in there, I'd rent gear for the weekend. I remember renting an Neuman for 20 bucks for the weekend or something. I'm like, no deposit. I'm like, how does this even work? But it's Canada, I guess they just figured that it's Canada. I was about to

Speaker 2 (01:41:54):

Say, people in Canada are nice.

Speaker 3 (01:41:57):

So I remember, oh man, I probably damaged it. I remember reding compressors and reverb things and mixer boards and mics and had no clue what I was doing. But just plugging things in and seeing what works. And that's a great way to learn because it sticks. When you finally get it, there's nothing that will make you remember something. Then messing with a setting for two hours and it driving you nuts and you don't know how to fix it all. Sudden something clicks and yes, I'll always remember that, but if someone just says it to you in class one day, you might never, chances are you won't remember it. So yeah, learning of your own volition on most things to me is, I'm a strong advocate for that. Definitely.

Speaker 2 (01:42:34):

Same here. Actually, one of the reasons that we started doing nail the mix is because 10 years ago or whenever, when we started, there was no resource like this. And so finding information was so tough, especially if you wanted to learn how to do metal

Speaker 3 (01:42:52):

Or

Speaker 2 (01:42:52):

Something, you could go on the sneak forum and maybe he would post a couple of vague tips and that's it. If you went to school, they wouldn't teach you how to do this stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:43:02):

No.

Speaker 2 (01:43:03):

They teach you how to route an SSL, but you wouldn't learn how to make heavy badass sounding records. There's literally nothing. So yeah, I think that people now have an advantage of, in terms of being able to educate themselves on this stuff that is kind of unprecedented and they don't need to waste their money and go into

Speaker 3 (01:43:27):

Debt. Dude, there's a whole rant I could go off about the education system and how it's set up to make money. It's not there to teach you. It's set there to make money, and you have to understand that and approach life and what you're going at. You might want to go to school for certain things, though. At the same time, I don't want to get myself in too much trouble, but there are certain degrees that you might want to get. Let's say I don't want to necessarily be a metal engineer or producer. I want to go into Foley work. I want to go into sound design. I want to go into commercial voiceover work, radio work, that kind of thing. And a lot of times they might need a lot of people who have degrees. They just need a lot of people to help. And you can work your way up through something like that. So I don't want to PPO on all education that way.

Speaker 2 (01:44:11):

In those particular fields, you probably won't get hired without a degree.

Speaker 3 (01:44:16):

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:44:17):

So that's important to note. But I think that when it comes to working with bands, working with bands and non Hollywood work, it kind of is irrelevant when you're dealing with something that's more unionized and corporate,

Speaker 3 (01:44:37):

If that's what you want to do. You know what I mean? If that's where you see yourself going, yeah, yeah, you want to go right, right, right.

Speaker 2 (01:44:42):

More power to you if that's what you want to do. But

Speaker 3 (01:44:44):

What you do, what I do, what Joey does, what all of these other people do, the most important thing is your portfolio. So build that up, get good gear, get good recordings, read up online, be a sponge, soak it up, go on YouTube, go listen to this podcast. Listen to all the other nail the mixes. There's so many resources out there. Just absorb the information, apply it, try, experiment, and build up a portfolio because a great way. I mean, that's how I landed some of my first gigs. Recording bands was like, they heard my work and I love the sound of that album. Can you do our record? And it's not a degree, it's not an advertisement or everything like that. It's a portfolio piece. It's something that this album sounds good. This guy can make these sounding albums. Let's work with this person. So yeah, your portfolio massively important for this line of work. Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:45:33):

And the sooner you get into building your portfolio, the sooner things will be good. Because a lot of the stuff we talked about in this podcast is stuff that you're not going to be good at it until you have some experience. The developing the artistic side of this shit, that's not a technical skill you can learn that has to do with your subconscious being on point and you need to feed it for years and through experience and through studying the art of music and cinema or whatever. So the sooner you get onto the task of building your portfolio and taking this seriously, the better. And sometimes spending four years at school is just four more years that you're going to have to four more years delayed before getting serious.

Speaker 3 (01:46:26):

Yeah, absolutely. It'll take you a little longer. You know what I mean? It will. I think going to school can expedite the process. You're going to get a lot of the fundamentals. You'll learn maybe a little quicker, some of the stuff, but maybe not. You know what I mean? I think about the basics of compressing, the basics of how to use a gate and just all these basic tools. You could probably learn faster by going on YouTube, honestly.

Speaker 2 (01:46:47):

You what I mean. Dude, we have an upper level called URM enhanced, not to get too pluggy, but we have these videos called Fast Tracks where they are like, how to actually hear a compression, how to develop. We have an EQ method that you can, it's called LDFC, and it's so that you can approach EQing the same way every single time

Speaker 4 (01:47:13):

So

Speaker 2 (01:47:13):

That you can just get it done and out of the way. EQing shouldn't be an artistic thing that you have to think about. And it also shouldn't be this thing where you're hunting around trying to figure it out. It should be a process, a scientific process. You repeat it every time, you do it quickly and you move on with your life. So we have a series of these fast tracks on there for these problems. Exactly. You could go on YouTube, but you could also sit there for eight hours trying to find someone who explains it. Right. The problem with YouTube is that you don't always know who's giving you the info if it's good info or not. And so you can go down a rabbit hole.

Speaker 3 (01:47:53):

Oh yeah,

Speaker 2 (01:47:54):

Absolutely. But I mean, still, these resources did not exist a while ago,

Speaker 3 (01:47:58):

And

Speaker 2 (01:47:58):

You do not need to go to school in order to learn how to do this stuff. So dude, thank you so much for coming on. It's been awesome talking to you.

Speaker 3 (01:48:07):

Yeah, no problem. No problem. Yeah, it's been really fun,

Speaker 2 (01:48:09):

Man. I feel like we could probably go on for another two hours. Probably. Probably. So here's my invitation to come back on in a few months.

Speaker 3 (01:48:18):

I would love it. Yeah, I think that'd be cool. I would definitely do it again. Awesome,

Speaker 2 (01:48:21):

Man. Well, thank you so much.

Speaker 1 (01:48:22):

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