KEVIN CHURKO: Working with Mutt Lange, The Secret to Hit Songs, His No-Reverb Drum Sound

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast, brought to you by STA Audio. Sta Audio creates zero compromise Recording gear. That is light on the wallet only. The best components are used, and each one goes through a rigorous testing process with one thing in mind, getting the best sound possible. Go to audio do com for more info. And now your hosts, Joey Sturgis, Joel Wanasek and Eyal Levi.

Speaker 2 (00:00:28):

Hey everyone, welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast. And today with us we have a very special guest, a man, Kevin Churko. How are you doing? Pretty good guys. How about you?

Speaker 3 (00:00:39):

Doing great, man. Thanks for coming on. As I was saying earlier, been big fans of your work and have hoped that you would come on at some point we had your amazing son on and that was great and we're just hoping that at some point you would come. So thank you for being here. No problem. And I just have a question, something I've been wondering for a while, because you do so many different things from helping with songwriting, to mixing, to producing, to just engineering. What would you consider yourself if you think of yourself in one way? Or do you think of yourself as one thing primarily like a musician first or a mixer, or does it not matter? You just do Kevin Churko.

Speaker 4 (00:01:19):

Well, that's a tough question. I've actually never had that question been asked, so that's really cool. That's a good way to start. How do I think of myself? Honestly, I guess the big picture is I just think of myself as helping other artists successfully do whatever they want to do. And that includes if they would need me to write, I write, if they need me to just mix, I mix. If they want me to produce, I'll do that. But I think my ultimate goal is just to really make great music with other people and this enables me not to go on the road. Oh, did you used to go on the road? Oh yeah. I mean, I'm that guy that started out, I mean, honestly, I'm not going to bore you with the whole thing, but basically my dad was acquired choir teacher at school, so this is starting off, and he had a weekend band and then us kids, myself and my brother and siblings got old enough to start playing in his band. And so basically he fired his guys in his band and hired us and we began playing. And so by the time I was in ninth grade, I was pretty much officially on the road permanently and we'd travel across Canada back and forth, and that went on for quite a few years.

Speaker 5 (00:02:38):

So how did you make the transition then into making actual records as opposed to being a touring musician? Well,

Speaker 4 (00:02:44):

I think in my case, my brother and I always had, we were always rerecording. So no matter what band we were playing in in those days, it wasn't as easy as it is now. In those days, we had to save our money to buy a task cam 2 44, which I'm not sure if you guys would know, but that changed our lives in a certain sense. I mean, we were able to all of a sudden record just like the records we were listening to. And because we were in a band, we had the family band, we had microphones, mixing boards, all the instruments. So it would literally be that I would play the drum track into two channels and then we'd bounce through the Mixing motor course and then bounce all that stuff down with a bass guitar onto a mono track, say, and then we'd just using four tracks just keep bouncing back and forth until we had an actual song.

(00:03:36):

So I think from the earliest of times, even before that, I remember being about nine or 10 and having a ghetto blaster on a chair with a SM 58 into that speaker. So I'd play back a track, I'd just recorded on it, and while that was playing back into the microphone, going to the mixing board, I would also play bass and then I'd have that tape and then I'd play that tape through the ghetto blaster and then go through the mixing board again and add guitar on and keep doing these things back and forth until I actually had a recording. So that was actually the first recording that was probably when I was nine or 10, and I just never really stopped.

Speaker 3 (00:04:12):

That's kind of fascinating to me that, so you got indoctrinated at a really young age into making music and sound.

Speaker 4 (00:04:19):

I was totally thinking from a recording point of view from the word go.

Speaker 3 (00:04:24):

That's amazing. So just I think it's an obvious question, but since we've had Canon who is amazing as well, was it an idea to I guess, indoctrinate him from a really young age into music, or do you think he just grew up around you and so he saw Dad doing it and wanted to do it as well? Yeah.

Speaker 5 (00:04:45):

I'm curious in this because I have kids as well, and I'm curious what you did because obviously you were incredibly successful at it because Kane is so awesome at what he does. So give us the roadmap.

Speaker 4 (00:04:56):

Well, you'd be surprised. I actually didn't encourage him. I didn't make it easy on him. I mean, because I was, by the time I was four, I was in piano lessons and practicing every day and this and that, and my wife had a different idea of how to raise kids. So she wanted the kids to be interested in it if they were interested in it, and not just to follow my family's path just because it was easy for us. And that's what I knew. So basically I didn't encourage him, I just let it come naturally. I mean, my dad's a music teacher, so he went to my dad for a while for piano lessons and that sort of thing, but any other kid didn't practice a whole lot at that time. So I would've been a little bit more sort of vigilant and more martial law with him making a practice the way that my parents kind of enforced it on us a little bit more.

(00:05:52):

But I think my wife just didn't want that kind of mentality in the house. And so then he just kind of fell off and I just kept doing what I did. And one day I came home and he had downloaded cakewalk and he was playing guitar into the computer. And of course I was in Proso fully at that point and working a couple of different studio jobs. And so I just kind of watched him and he needed some tech help, so I kind of helped him out a little bit and just saw where it went. And a couple weeks later, he was doing vocals, brought on a microphone home, and he started to record actual songs. And a couple weeks later they were getting better and better. And then basically I reacted to what he did and once he showed signs of truly being interested in it, I would give him another tool. I mean, eventually I could get him a Pro Tools rig. I mean, when he started out, we were broke, so I couldn't really buy him anything. I had borrow stuff, but we couldn't really have a setup at home. So little bit by little bit he showed interest and little bit by little bit I kind of unlocked another door for him, and then eventually he became the can that

Speaker 3 (00:06:56):

That's really, really interesting.

Speaker 4 (00:06:57):

That's amazing.

Speaker 3 (00:06:59):

My dad is a symphony conductor, so he got me going on it really, really young. And I guess having grown up around it like that, it's really interesting to me how it works in other musical families too.

Speaker 4 (00:07:15):

I would think that my early childhood was probably similar to yours. I think people in that classical field and in that sort of educated musical world tend to probably be harder on their kids and tend to

Speaker 3 (00:07:29):

Oh yeah,

Speaker 4 (00:07:30):

Go by. I don't know what it was down here, but in Canada they have what's called the Royal Conservatory of Music. And every one of us kids from the time we were four or five, it's like hockey dad except it's music dad, and he's not taking us to the rink every day and force USS Skate. But we got the grand piano and each one of us had a secondary instrument, and probably like yourself,

(00:07:55):

It's work, work, work, work, work. And then we have band Practice Day, and then we have Vocal Practice Day and Harmony Practice Day. I mean, I guess I was kind of the Wayne Gretzky of music in a sense that I had that dad that was fully committed. But at the same time, I mean, wasn't Michael Jackson's dad, he wasn't Joe Jackson beat me or anything like that. I mean really us kids just really grasped it and loved it and just eventually we just took off on our own more so than waiting for him to instruct us. Then we were teens and then we had the bands and at the house, and so it was really for us, for most of us kids a great life.

Speaker 3 (00:08:32):

Well, I mean I actually wanted to do it. That's the thing. I wasn't being forced. I just saw what he was doing and wanted to emulate it even when I was three years old, but it wasn't living in a military family or anything like that. But cool. It's more just an example to follow or something like that. So yeah, it's just fascinating to me how that works. Sounds pretty similar.

Speaker 4 (00:08:59):

I think as parents, that's all we can mostly do is just be the example. You don't want your kids to smoke, don't smoke, you don't want them to drink, don't drink. You want them to be interested in stuff. You should be interested in stuff. And even if they're interested in different stuff, I think that they probably pick up a lot more than we would think.

Speaker 5 (00:09:18):

Yeah, very interesting. Like I said, because I have a couple of kids under the age of five, I often wonder how hard should I push? Should I push 'em at all? I'm not quite sure, but my wife is definitely, I don't want your kids doing music when they grow up. So it's pretty fascinating. We'll see what happens.

Speaker 4 (00:09:36):

I think that the wife Yang for your ying is probably important. I mean more ways than one. Yeah,

Speaker 5 (00:09:42):

She keeps me in line.

Speaker 4 (00:09:44):

Yeah, I think all of us creative types, I mean, I like to think that in my relationship, my job is to dream and to be bigger than life, and my wife's job is to tell me that's not possible or to tell me the repercussions of failing or the repercussions of not having that happen. So I think that's why there's husband and wife or husband and husband, whatever it is. I mean, two people that say as parents or two people in a relationship that I think it's good to have a little bit of pushback on your pull in more ways than one again.

Speaker 5 (00:10:17):

Definitely. I see we married the same woman.

Speaker 3 (00:10:21):

Well, aside from parenting, do you think that an influence that has been helpful in your life and career as a whole, having someone to ground you?

Speaker 4 (00:10:29):

Yeah. Yeah, I'd have to say. So I mean, again, I was raised in a pretty decent family, so I mean that probably hurt me artistically. I didn't have the drama in my life that so many of the people I work with have, but I think certainly in my personal life, so you have to understand, we were teenage parents, and so we had a lot of struggle from the top. And I think that having someone who's a little bit more, let's call it realistic, is I think a good balance for most of us who are creative and really on a, I mean, you have to be creative and you have to be over the top, I think most of the time in this business in order to succeed, in order to have an extra edge on somebody else. As engineers, if this is just an engineering interview, those guys should be as they possibly can, and very concerned with almost science in a certain sense, a science of sound.

(00:11:27):

But I think as creators, and at the top of the questions you asked me, what do I consider myself, it can be very difficult. You have to keep putting on a different hat and your brain has to keep thinking a different way from where you're writing with the artist to where you're just recording that vocal and even recording the vocal. I mean, I like working alone a lot of the time with that artist. So I don't have necessarily a staff of engineers or assistants or anything kind of behind me checking on levels and doing this and that. So I got to have my scientific engineering hat on, but at the same time really concentrate on the more important and bigger picture of what's actually being recorded.

Speaker 3 (00:12:07):

Do you think that working with Mutt Lang help enforce the scientific engineering side of things, or were you already thinking that way before you went in with him?

Speaker 4 (00:12:17):

I think I'd be a moron to think it didn't affect me. I mean, it was huge. I mean, I kind of would put it like this. I worked for, like I said, I probably, it started seriously recording by the time I was maybe 13, 14, and I worked for 25 years to be able to work for Mutt. And then my education started at that point. It wasn't like I had every skill I needed to work for him, but I had a lot of skills and I was a drummer, which he really appreciated. He is a big time guy. So yeah, I would say I would definitely not be sitting in this chair that I'm sitting in now without him or somebody. I mean, I was exceptionally lucky. He was my hero.

Speaker 5 (00:12:56):

How did you get hooked up with him?

Speaker 4 (00:12:59):

Well, it's a simple yet long story. So my brother Corey was in his wife's band, so he was one of those three fiddle players that you used to see traveling around the country. And oddly enough, I, I'll tell you the whole story, I mean, you guys can edit this down any way you want. So basically we're Canadian, so we are up in Canada, and Shania's label up in Canada was trying to find young fiddle players that looked kind of rock and roll, but could still play. So they contacted my brother Corey, and he basically got the gig instantly. I mean, he went down there and his first gig was like David Letterman or something. And so you're taking not quite boys from the farm, he was living in Vancouver at that time, but you're taking people that aren't used to that kind of success and stage show and really pull vaulted him up that ladder.

(00:13:50):

But I mean, they liked him so much that they wanted me to audition to play drums. So I went down there to New York, and by that time I was already pretty much just studio guy. I hadn't been playing as much as I did as a kid, but basically I failed. Thankfully I failed and I didn't get the gig, but that worked out well because a bunch of years later, they were sitting around the table and Mutt was looking for a new engineer, a new programmer, a new pro tools guy. So they knew that on my resume, I had originally sent in, I had all my studio experience and stuff. And so basically, I think it was, and I asked Corey, he said, doesn't your brother do that? And he said, yeah, let me give you his number kind of thing. Not thinking that they would ever call me. Really, it's just a conversation at lunch, he gave me the heads up, sent me an email saying, probably nothing's ever going to happen on this, but just in case I'm giving you the heads up. And sure enough, about a couple weeks later, my call in the middle of the night, and it started with a phone call. He just called to chat and probably get a feel for who I was. And these days he'd be probably trying to check if I was a Donald Trump fan or not.

(00:15:06):

And I, I'd not even be hired if I was. But yeah, it just started with that. And then it started when he said, look, I might be looking for a guy. I might not be looking for a guy. I'm just giving you a shout and saying hi. And it started like that, and eventually he flew me over there for a couple of days and little bit by little bit. That's awesome.

Speaker 3 (00:15:25):

So that first time that the first time that you went for it and you said that you failed in that pursuit, did that get you down or did it discourage you, or was it just like, okay, whatever, I'm just going to keep going anyways.

Speaker 4 (00:15:38):

Yeah, I was totally crushed. I mean, I thought that was my one shot. I mean, you got to understand, we're sitting up in Saskatchewan, Canada, and I'm doing two jobs flying from a little post studio to a music studio doing everything I can just to pay the bills, and I finally get my shot and I basically fail at it. I mean, it could be argued whether I failed or not, but I didn't get the gig. So to me, that's failure. So I thought, well, there's my shot. And it did change the way I thought after that too.

Speaker 3 (00:16:08):

How so? In what way?

Speaker 4 (00:16:11):

Well, I think I mistakenly believed that you only get one or two shots, and if you don't make it that you should do other things. So I had a brother-in-law who was data programming for a company called SAP, which is a database management kind of program for big companies and corporations like Coca-Cola and those kinds of things. And this guy was making $200 an hour and he was basically a college dropout, but he knew this program really well, and he was making $200 an hour. I had put 25 years into this, and I was making zero. So I thought, well, I can do that. I'm a smart dude. And so basically I went to a power course, like a one month training course in Toronto. That's my Canadian roots coming out, and I learned as much as I could. And then thinking that, you know what? Fuck music, I'm done with this. I worked so hard.

(00:17:10):

It was just really a struggle. So I said, just screw this. I mean, I got a family, I got to support them. I just can't keep on working for a dream. You have to understand that I'd be working 16 hour days, not just going for eight hours or not being able to get gigs. I had gigs and I had work, but it was just always that struggle and not doing the level of work that I wanted to be working on or doing the level of bands I wanted to be working with. So I basically went to Toronto and did this power SAP course and aced through that because I mean, what we do as music programmers and musicians is very math based, and you really have to think that way that a program would think. And so I didn't really have any trouble grasping the program and all that sort of thing and went really well. But right after that, all the companies started focusing on the Y 2K problem that everybody was apparently going to have, and they stopped expanding their database management departments. And so all of a sudden I still had no job. So then I thought I was going to get a $200 an hour job, but instead I'm back in Regina again just recording some good bands, but also a lot of bad bands and as well was doing Foley, and I was just back to my old life of just trying to make ends meet.

Speaker 3 (00:18:30):

So was the transition when you started working for Mutt, was that the big transformation in your life or was it already getting better at that point?

Speaker 4 (00:18:40):

You know what, just before I started working for him, it wasn't necessarily awesome, but it was stable, meaning that I had my roster of clients, and like I said, I could float back and forth between a post studio and a music studio. And as well, I was still playing. I mean, I got sort of a salaried job playing drums for an artist there. And so I had a pretty decent life, owned my own house, all that sort of thing. But really when Mutt called me again and when I started going to Switzerland there to work, it really did expand myself in every way possible from personally to of course, professionally and just I think getting out of Canada was important for my education too and for anybody's education, leaving their sort of home country I think is a wonderful way to realize there's more than one point of view out there. And it's a great way to learn to stimulate your mind, whether it's just a language barrier or whether it's a cultural barrier. I mean, I think probably I grew a lot as a person looking back into the box instead of being in the box the entire time.

Speaker 5 (00:19:49):

Definitely I can relate to that. Totally.

Speaker 3 (00:19:51):

So was it just getting thrown in the deep end basically when you went to Switzerland?

Speaker 4 (00:19:56):

You know what I mean? I was really ready for it. The reason why I went back, the reason why he hired me is because the first time I went over there for my weekend, so let's call it, he just wanted me to come over and hang out for a couple days. So I went there and I parachuted into the studio. They were having a sink problem that I had fixed a billion times, just sinking tape to the Pro Tools rig. And his guy couldn't get it happening. He wanted a sample accurate, and within 15 minutes I fixed a problem he had been having for weeks. So I think technically at that time I was really ready. And technically at that time, I was a Pro Tools wizard. I mean, I'm far less a Pro Tools wizard now because I have so many things to worry about.

(00:20:36):

But at that time, I mean, I knew almost everything there was to know about that program because I had worked with it in so many ways and so extensively. So I think I was exactly what he needed to bridge the analog to digital gap. So I was really ready for it. But at the same time, I had to learn a lot of stuff too. I mean, I remember I had never worked with Logic and he was using logic for his media lot at the Times. And so on the plane I got that Logic manual, and I don't know if you remember some of those original logic manuals, how thick? I mean, the Bible has nothing on that. I mean, it was huge and I had no hands on with it, so I'd never even been on a logic system, but I'm on the plane for 12 hours or whatever it was, not, I guess not 12 hours, but long enough to try to learn as much as I could.

(00:21:27):

And the first thing I did is convert all his logic sessions into pro tool sessions just so I could know a little bit more about the program and not be caught up on having to learn shortcuts and learn all the logic at that time was a lot less user friendly, a lot more German. But yeah, I mean I did. I had to go from, I mean, I was lucky because at the music studio I worked back in Canada, the guy grant hall, he was a gear fiend, and so he always tried to get one of everything and he was always on the cutting edge of any gear and especially digital stuff, but even analog gear too. So I knew, and plus all the studios that I had recorded as a band and all that kind of stuff, I had a pretty solid education all the way through.

(00:22:09):

But when I showed up there, Mike really did have one of everything, and he may want to use any one of those things at any given time. So definitely, I mean, I would go to the bathroom on a bathroom break and I'd take a manual with me just to randomly read parts of that manual just in case I learned something I didn't know, which I always did, of course. Just so that when he needed something done, I was ready for him. I mean, I was there to stay. I wasn't there to float in and work for a week and go home. I wanted to learn a lot. So I knew that if I gave him a lot and if I was very useful to him, he would keep me around a long time.

Speaker 3 (00:22:42):

Yeah, we always tell our listeners to read the manuals that's in one of our first episodes ever. We talked about that at length, and I think Joey talked about reading the Ozone manual, and we always tell our listeners that if you're wondering about how something works, rather than posting a question online, go read the manual, check it out for yourself. There's a reason that the manufacturers write these, and most of the info you want is right there, and you'll give yourself such an edge over people because barely anyone ever reads the manuals.

Speaker 4 (00:23:15):

I would say that's one thing I always enforce my guys to do because you just have so much more thorough understanding of whatever you're working with. I mean, I agree with you, and in fact, now, I mean Kane's kind of the generation that's not a manual user. So I have to fight with Kane every now and then about asking me a question versus reading the manual. And I guess I'm to blame now too. I don't always have time to dig into it, so I'll ask him questions if he knows and he'll ask me questions of stuff I know. But the reality is is I used to train a lot of guys and I would show them stuff, and finally I realized, you know what? If these guys can't learn this shit on their own, then they shouldn't be working here. I mean, they should become making my life better instead of me just making their lives better.

(00:23:57):

It is easy. It's never been easier these days to learn stuff, to learn anything than now. I mean, even your program, your podcasts, interviewing people, I mean, there's so many, many resources, YouTube programs to learn stuff. I mean, it's literally you're able to learn everything you need to almost at home. And when I was coming up, I remember going to my first SSL room and I had to mix, and I literally, I went to the studio ahead of time and photograph or photocopied their manual. We didn't have the internet back then, and I would literally photograph 80 pages the relevant mixing sections of the SSL, so that I would know, and I'd read up on all the stuff just so I would know ahead of time, at least give myself a fighting start of what trim mode was, how you could side chain stuff, everything like that that I needed to know. I just read the whole manual. So by the time I showed up, I knew stuff and I didn't know everything, but at least I knew the key points and then this distant could fill me in on all the things that I didn't know.

Speaker 2 (00:25:00):

This is exactly why you worked with Mutt Lang. I think he kind of requires that level of dedication and commitment to the craft, and it makes sense totally that you were there.

Speaker 4 (00:25:11):

Well, and the thing is that he's such a nice guy that he's never mean to you. He's never yells at you, never demeans you, but at the same time, his expectation, his expectation is so high that you're either going to get the job done no matter what the cost or you're going to leave. And I think he knows that. And so most people that get that shot with him, they rise to the challenge or they don't last.

Speaker 3 (00:25:39):

That makes me wonder now, hearing what you had to go through and that you train people or have trained people, I'm just getting your viewpoint a little bit. Makes me wonder, so say you're hiring an assistant, what are the requirements? What do you expect to be just assumed if you're going to be taking on an intern or an engineer or an assistant or just something, what do you think should be just an understood thing that this person is a bad asset, this, this and this, and it shouldn't even come up?

Speaker 4 (00:26:09):

Honestly, I think that the first key thing these days are computer skills and pro tool skills, and it's sad to say that, but so many of the things that I need are technologically based fixes or someone to take that off my shoulders so I don't have to troubleshoot stuff so I don't have to worry about what the problem is. So I think that if I'm hiring an assistant, the first and foremost thing, if they don't even have computer chops, then they're probably not my guy because that's almost something you get naturally. Everything else you have to try almost harder for. But if you're not able to navigate around a Mac or if you're not able to navigate within Pro Tools itself and understand a lot about that program, then you're almost wasting my time because the other stuff, the fun stuff, setting up microphones, recording stuff, working with those kind of people, I mean that's all fun, but it's easy to eat ice cream at the end of your meal, maybe a little bit harder to eat the vegetables at the start of your meal.

(00:27:12):

I need that guy who's eating a well-balanced diet so that he has something to offer me. And I tell mean it's a business in a sense. So I tell all the new guys the same thing, I'm going to pay you according to how much value you're bringing me, and if you can do a lot of stuff I need done already, then awesome, I'm going to pay you a lot because you're making me money, or at least you're making my life better. If I can go home two hours earlier, I know my guy's on it. That is valuable to my life. So that guy gets paid for the guy that I got to sit down with and teach how to time a drum track or shift regions around or dial certain things up. If I got to sit down and train him, he's costing me money and he's costing me time, which is even more valuable than money these days is the amount of time I get to do other things outside of my studio.

(00:28:06):

But all these things, all these skills and talents that people have that are valuable to me, it basically all comes from having a good attitude and having some ambition in life and let's call it a sense of optimism. And I think that gets you through the bad times is that you're hungry for it and you want to learn and you're excited by it. And that's sort of a mentality that's easily found in people or easily not found. And I can probably after, I mean I've been doing this a long time, so I mean obviously I can have some guy in here and I can probably within a matter of minutes, pick him apart pretty quick and realize what makes him tick even to the point of his childhood. And I can generally tell pretty fast if a guy's going to last or if he's going to have the skills or going to be able to develop those skills, not just for working for me, but in this industry in general.

(00:29:02):

And as you guys know, it's brutal. I mean, I'm not negative and I don't want to be negative for people starting, but I mean, if you can't win this stamina test, you're going to fail. And it's really as simple as that. And if you don't want to work every hour of your day, at least for a good bunch of years, you're going to fail. If you can't go into the movies at the bottom of the list or taking gals or guys on dates, you're going to fail. I mean, it's just something that in order to rise to the top of this narrowing mountain, you really have to have extra juice that other people don't have.

Speaker 3 (00:29:42):

Ain't that the truth? Are you familiar with Zach Sini?

Speaker 4 (00:29:45):

No.

Speaker 3 (00:29:47):

He is young and maybe what we've had him on here, he is what, 21 I believe.

Speaker 5 (00:29:53):

Yeah, young kid, definitely.

Speaker 3 (00:29:54):

Yeah. And he's just engineered on the latest Blink 180 2, and he's been working on some really, really big stuff. And

Speaker 5 (00:30:06):

He's Feldman's assistant.

Speaker 3 (00:30:07):

Yes, he's feldman's engineer basically. And he got the gig at a super young age. And one of the things that he talked about getting that gig and maintaining that gig is that he works 16 to 18 hours a day almost every single day except for maybe one day off a week. And he's done that for years, and he loves it. He doesn't mind. And that's been one of the secrets to doing a-list records at the age of 21 or 22 has been his incredible stamina.

Speaker 4 (00:30:39):

If you're looking at this, if you have to think, oh, I don't want to go to work today, even if alls you're doing is going to get coffee for people, if you have to think, I still don't want to go to work on almost any day unless somebody's beating you up when you get there. If you have to think like that, this is not your career, it really has to be something where you're excited to do whatever you can do in order to keep getting better and keep getting better gigs, the better gigs come with you being better. So work on yourself first and those gigs will come funny

Speaker 3 (00:31:09):

How that works, right? Yep,

Speaker 5 (00:31:11):

Absolutely. So I wanted to change gears a little bit here if we don't mind. So Kevin, how do you keep on top of the rapidly changing market? I feel like this is one of the hardest things to do, and I'll just speak from personal experience. When you work on recordings, artists or whatever for 14, 16 hours a day, the last thing you want to do is sit down, listen to the radio and say, okay, this trend is emerging and this market, okay, let's switch market. This is coming in over here, I'm going to focus on that, et cetera. How do you do it?

Speaker 4 (00:31:35):

Wow, that's another great question. I mean, you can tell you guys are pros. That's a real difficult thing. I mean, to be honest,

Speaker 3 (00:31:42):

We just love talking about this stuff.

Speaker 4 (00:31:46):

Well, the reality is is the harder you work in a sense, the more a touch that you are because you are not going to the grocery store and randomly hearing things. People play things. You're not going to parties where people are playing new music, you're not hanging with friends. You're fricking working your ass off to get stuff done. So it's a double-edged sword. You have to work that hard in order to get ahead, but at the same time, you do have to be in touch with what's going on out there. Honestly, I think having a family is a wonderful thing because Cain introduced me to a lot of music I normally wouldn't have heard. My wife listens to completely different music than what I listen to both current and old. And my daughter is the best sounding board of them all because she's not a musician.

(00:32:33):

She's a young girl. By young I means she's 23 and she listens to completely different music than all of us. So I think I just peripherally hear a lot of things and they're on top of what's current. And I just hear that stuff as I went to play Frisbee golf with my daughter this morning, and I get in and there's a Drake song on, and that is probably not an artist that I would normally just gravitate towards, but I'm listening to it and digging it and literally, I mean, we're all the same. We're always trying to figure out what's turning people on from that track. What do people like about that? Why is it good? Why is it at the top of the charts? So I think we all have to have two musical minds are just out of pure love and who we are as people and what we want to listen to.

(00:33:17):

But then if you want to be involved in the music business, you of course have to understand what's current, what's coming, what's failing, what's making money and what's not. And so I do, I most definitely look at the charts of all sorts to understand what's doing well. And I'm not just talking about just radio charts because say I'm mostly a rock guy these days and I can look at the rock charts, and just because the song's number one on rock radio doesn't mean that it's selling anything at all. So to me, it's much more important to look at people who have careers and who are consistently working and consistently selling than just someone who has a single big song. So I guess to answer your question in a short way, I really listen to the people around me, and that's mostly my family and mostly my friends.

(00:34:09):

And I'm lucky that they don't have the same interests as me and the same musical loves as me because I hear everything. And I think it's important to listen to everything because that can be the difference between making yourself special. And in my case, I mean, I'm working with a lot of rock bands and a lot of heavy bands. And honestly, even though, I mean a lot of my bands are heavy bands, but my job is not to make them heavy. My job is to make them more palatable for the average person who maybe wouldn't be a rock fan. I mean, I'm trying to bring people into the industry, not just satisfy its root core, who's not even going to buy enough product to give that artist a career. So it's because I listened to all these other things and because I am current with other music, that I can maybe add some things to these bands and help them force them into, not force them, guide them into direction that is classic, but still current at the same time. And it's a combination of people around you as well as consciously looking for it and consciously trying to see why are 21 pilots selling amazing numbers? Why do people love them? Why does Adele do as well as she does? I mean, I'm not just thinking, why is Metallica doing as well as they're doing? I'm just looking at all music genres and all music people.

Speaker 3 (00:35:36):

So when you look at Adele, you study what it is about her songs that inspire everybody,

Speaker 4 (00:35:43):

Mean obviously at the root of it all, there's a, there's core principles, and that's one thing Amma taught me as well as a good song is a good song. And then the production and the flavor of the month is just the clothes that you put on that model. I mean, but all the bones, the bone structure and everything is all there for a good hooky song. They're basic principles. It doesn't matter if it's pop or country or rock, I mean, so you can learn a lot by listening to any hit song and by anything that people are actively seeking out. And whether it's Call Me, maybe, or Ironman, I mean, there's all principles that apply across the board and not just principles of music, but principle of marketing, direction of strategy. I mean, let's call it whether to be on Spotify, not to be on Spotify. I think that as I'm getting older, I'm probably starting to become much more business focused on music because that's what I have to deal with a lot of times. And so I'm trying to understand not only people better of their tastes, but also the music industry themselves and the gatekeepers and what they're looking for. And if I could go back to being 21 again and playing in bands, I know exactly how to do it.

Speaker 3 (00:37:01):

So do you advise your clients on business matters ever? Do you ever talk to 'em about business or are you just soaking it in for your own sake? So what's

Speaker 4 (00:37:10):

Going on? Well, I think there's different levels of bands that I work with in the sense that some bands, obviously I've been doing for a long time, so say like Five Finger Death Punch, I'm going into my sixth record with them. I mean, obviously they live in my city. We're friends. We talk about a lot of those business things, so they don't necessarily need my advice, but they'll throw ideas against me or at me, and I'm just aware of what's going on in their business. And even bands in this moment too, I mean, I've done four records with Chris and Maria, so we're great friends, and plus I get to see into a lot of bands, business life, let's call it, just by being in the studio with them year after year. So I've seen a lot of situations. So bands will call me to see if I have any knowledge of what they're talking about or from everything from how much do we pay a side man to, does this contract seem right?

(00:38:03):

And it's different levels. Some bands that I don't work with as much, they're a little bit more private, and I don't ask those questions and they don't offer anything up. But other people that I worked with over and over again, you just can't help but know more and be more, just be able to talk to them easier and so that they trust you with the questions that they would have. So yes, I guess the answer is yes, I do offer advice, but I never try to make sure it's my only advice because I'm just a producer, I'm just making music. If you want to ask me anything, I'm going to tell you how I feel. But that doesn't mean it's right.

Speaker 3 (00:38:39):

Well, I'm sure you'd notice common themes though between bands, like if you work with enough bands and five of the bands you've worked with over the years have made the same mistake, which has caused 'em to get dropped or something, and all the bands that have never gotten dropped, have never done that, then that's probably some good advice to share with a client if you see them going down a bad road.

Speaker 4 (00:39:03):

I think the advantage that I have is that I do see a lot of bands make their mistakes or correct them both in their personal lives and their business lives. And of course, I'm usually in the middle of band disagreements and that sort of thing. So I feel that sometimes my role is to make everybody comfortable with their own situation and just tell it to 'em straight and put the fires out as I'm working just on a record, but that also spills over into personal life where I've received those 2:00 AM personal calls from people I've worked with in the past too, that just need some help.

Speaker 5 (00:39:39):

Definitely. So a question for you, Kevin. A big thing that I always work with a lot of my artists on is what's going to be the next thing? For example, what's going to make this 2017 now, or what's going to make this very modern and current? What do you do in terms of strategies and how do you game? What do you think is going to be next? So when you sit down with a band and they come in and say, you've done four records together, and you say, okay, we've done this, we've done that. Are we going to double down on this and just go for a legacy vibe and just own it? Or are we going to bring this into the modern and update the brand? What strategies do you employ to try to keep yourself really current and always on the curve of what is coming in and going on?

Speaker 3 (00:40:16):

And I want to take that question a step further actually to something a little specific. Like for instance, in this moment when I know they worked with you when they completely changed their sound, and lots of times when a band completely changes their image and their sound, that's the end of the road for them, but that was actually in some ways you could consider that the beginning of their career. So just in reference to what Joel just asked, I know that you've done that, so maybe you could talk about it through the context of in this moment.

Speaker 4 (00:40:48):

Right. I think, again, those are great questions because every record those questions come up. I work with different styles of bands, even though people would probably pigeonhole me into a certain thing. They're all very, very different people and very, very different bands. So with a case in this moment, Maria and Chris are true artists in the sense that they listen to other stuff, they want to do other stuff. They're just not a one trick pony. So honestly, that really is Maria driving that ship or sailing that ship in a certain sense, and I'm there to accommodate her anywhere way I can. The reason why on the Blood album, the Direction changed so drastically is because they lost half their band and their management. And honestly, that gave Kane and I the freedom to be more involved and gave Maria the freedom to just do whatever she wanted to do at that point.

(00:41:44):

And so it was kind of a very exciting time for Maria, Chris, and Kane and I that we didn't necessarily talk about it on that record. We didn't really talk about it. We just kind of did it. They had no management and no band. And I said, don't worry about it. Just get to Vegas and we'll just start tracking. And it just happened the way it happened. And once you start liking things, it just takes on a life of its own safer Black Widow. It was probably more of a conscious thought is how are we going to one up blood and how are we going to keep on expanding? But I would say that with an act like that, they really do. They're almost old school in the sense that when you used to listen to Bowie from album to album, it would really change.

(00:42:27):

It always sounded like him, but it would be very different when you listen to Queen. Every record was like, what are they going to do now? And I think that music has really lost that a little bit these days where once you're in your little channel, you generally keep on going on the channel. And like you mentioned, if you deviate, if you color outside the lines, all of a sudden the coloring book gets torn up and you're done. I think that's a fan issue more than an artist issue because most of the artists I deal with to do different things. Now in the case of say some other bands like say like a band like Five Finger, they're very, very conscious of who they are and what they do from everything from a lyrical point of view to a musical point of view. And say, for the new record, we had some great ideas of what direction we were going to go in, but it does become a group collective, and it does become a conversation with the management and everything too. Even though same thing as in this moment in the Five Finger world, those guys, they're driving their own car, man. They really do do what they want and they're good at it. There's enough

Speaker 5 (00:43:34):

Lifestyle.

Speaker 4 (00:43:35):

It's a lifestyle band, and there's enough really talented people in that band, not just that music, but marketing and everything else, that there's much stronger collectively than individually because they help each other be better and they stop each other from making some mistakes maybe that we'll only get past one guy, not the other three guys. So it is something that with a lot of bands that we have the discussion, how can we make this better than the last record? Or if it's the first time I'm working with the band, it's really a conversation of what didn't you like on the last record? Or what do you want to do? And then it really becomes a making sure that the label and management are on board. You don't want to surprise anybody. You really want the team to all be focused on the same thing and all to know what's going down.

(00:44:22):

I mean, if someone's expecting you to do a metal, the heaviest metal record you've ever done, you don't give them a pop song. But usually you get all the people together and you can say, this is what we're thinking, is that cool? And usually they'll say yes. And again, in the case of Five Finger and in this moment, it's really those guys control their own destinies, and I'm honestly just there to help them do whatever they want to do. Now, obviously I do have my opinion. I mean, they're not watching the charts the way I'm watching the charts. They're not looking at other band sales the way that I'm looking at other band sales. So I think that I almost have my a and r hat on constantly and my record company hat on constantly because I want those bands to do well. I want those bands to sell more and more and to have a better live show and to be able to tour. And because that keeps me in business, but just I care about those people that I just want them to enjoy their lives and be making money and playing music, not just playing music and dying a sad death financially.

(00:45:21):

So I do generally have something to contribute by way of, it's not always a consciously spoken thing. It's like if they come to me and want the heaviest record they've ever had, I put that through my brain filter and go, okay, so we definitely got to make sure these songs are aggressive, but I still want to make sure they end up with a couple of radio tracks. And I still want to make sure that each song has a hook. And I still think about, well, if we incorporate a little bit of this sort of thing into it, it'll still make it a little bit more mainstream and bring more people, yet won't alienate their base and we'll make them feel good. And so ultimately, I think that as a producer, people come back to me again and again because they're satisfied in the end. They're happy with what they have. And I think that's because I really try to put their interests first. Even if I disagree, if they come to me and say, we want to play all the guitar parts on Marimbas now, I would still find a way to make that work. I put the marimba through an app and put some distortion on it and put it through Dfx site at the end of the day.

Speaker 5 (00:46:28):

Now we're talking

Speaker 4 (00:46:30):

And it would still be heavy and still be sellable. So I'm definitely thinking from more of a role than just a musical one. And I think that does do service to my bands because let's face it, we can all make music at home all we want and make it exactly how we want. But if you're looking to have a career, you have to be able to make money. And it's as simple as that. And if you don't make money, you can't pay people. You can't go on tour, you just stop playing music and then nobody wants that.

Speaker 5 (00:47:06):

Well, speaking of money, what do you think makes a song a hit in your opinion?

Speaker 4 (00:47:10):

It's very simple. Do people like it if people like it or not like it? And honestly, I mean, my favorite songs are the hits that you're not ready for the Bohemian Rhapsody. I mean, could you have said that that was going to be a hit over and over again? No,

Speaker 3 (00:47:29):

Of course. No. That doesn't follow any of the rules at all. No,

Speaker 4 (00:47:33):

Even a song like Under Pressure, I mean, anybody that's looking to write verse chorus, verse chorus are not using those as guidelines. So a lot of the classic bands that I would listen to from my youth bands like Supertramp, and I mentioned Queen and David Bowie and different people like that. I mean, it was a wonderful time in music, I think. Whereas now it tends to get a little formulated. And I'm at fault in that too, because I know if I get the song to be three minutes and 20 seconds, it's going to have a better shot to get played on radio than if it's five minutes and 50 seconds. You do have to take into account what you can and can't do. But honestly, if you have a six minute song, but you're interested in it all the way through, it's still going to be a hit. It's still going to be, you can go to Hotel California and it's no matter how many verses there are, it's still going to be awesome. They found a way to make it work.

Speaker 5 (00:48:31):

Now, how do we get the radio program directors to put a six minute song on now in this market? That's the real question.

Speaker 4 (00:48:37):

Yeah. But I think that let's say that Bohemian Rapp Sea were to come out now, it would still get noticed just as much. And it might be tough at first, but eventually it's probably even more so now. Now a song can have a life outside of radio. I mean, in a sense, radio is becoming less and less important if even say The Sound of Silence, a song that I recently did. I mean, that took on life way before radio played it. I mean, this dirt did that video, and all of a sudden people are passing that around instantly, and it was selling amazingly before radio even started playing it. So the good news is these days, if you make something awesome, people will probably find it if all the pieces of the puzzle are there. Whereas before you, pretty much before the internet, you needed more radio and to be on a big tour, and you almost don't need that anymore.

(00:49:33):

I think if you make something truly extraordinary, people will find it. Now, most of us can't always make something that extraordinary. So sometimes it is a little bit easier to play within the rules, make your songs shorter rather than longer, and make sure there's hooky courses and it repeats itself. So by the end of the first listen that you can already pick up the title, it's always good to have the title as a first thing you hear and the last thing you hear. There's all those sort of techniques that go through our minds of how do we really lock this down? But at the same time, that's when someone surprises you with something completely different that you just love listening to, and you can't turn it off and it doesn't follow any of those rules. So I mean, I think that for me, it's the same thing as just writing music is learn as much as you can about it, but then try not to be too tied down to those rules and guidelines because it's much more exciting when you break the rules rather than follow them.

Speaker 3 (00:50:32):

Definitely. So speaking of hooks, because you mentioned hooks a few times, what in your opinion makes a good hook?

Speaker 4 (00:50:39):

Well, it's just something that inspires people that they can recognize and look forward to it. I think part of music appreciation is almost waiting for that hook, and then you get it. It's almost the waiting for it that you're waiting for. You're waiting for Phil Collins to go. So it's the anticipation of those wonderful moments that you can repeat. Well, I mean, he doesn't repeat that riff in that song, but that's basically what makes a hook is something that people want to hear over and over again, and not only while they're listening to that music, but after they turn it off, they're driving to work radios off and they're still singing it. I think there's no better definition of a hook than music or lyrics which get into the person's subconscious. So it's constantly rolling around in their head. In a good way, not a bad way. I mean, you can go Friday, Friday or whatever that was, and maybe that's an awesome hook, but maybe not the hook that you want in your head.

Speaker 3 (00:51:45):

So for anyone listening, if you don't know what he's talking about, look up Rebecca Black Friday on YouTube. And

Speaker 5 (00:51:53):

I think everybody on Earth that was alive when that came out heard that song at least 400 times

Speaker 3 (00:51:58):

Possibly. But just in case they don't know, I want them to go listen to it.

Speaker 4 (00:52:03):

I mean, you should, because honestly, I mean there's a lot of awesome things that you can get from that song and even on, and I'm not even saying I don't like that song. I'm not ragging on that song at all.

Speaker 5 (00:52:13):

It's a hit. It's undeniable. I

Speaker 4 (00:52:14):

Look at all that and go way to go. That's awesome. And it doesn't matter if it's Gangnam style or it doesn't matter if it's calling maybe whatever it is, if you get that many people to be engaged in listening to it, it's a wonderful thing and a lesson to be learned.

Speaker 3 (00:52:30):

Absolutely.

Speaker 5 (00:52:31):

I always say to myself, I wish I wrote that song. No

Speaker 4 (00:52:35):

Kidding. Definitely.

Speaker 3 (00:52:36):

Since we're starting to run out of time, we've got a few questions from our listeners for you. Do you mind answering a few of them?

Speaker 4 (00:52:45):

I don't mind. As long as they aren't. Why do you suck so bad?

Speaker 3 (00:52:49):

We deleted that one. We deleted that.

Speaker 4 (00:52:51):

Okay, good. Alright, cool.

Speaker 3 (00:52:53):

So Jordan and Belton is asking, how does your mixing workflow change when going from the likes of Shania Twain to Disturb?

Speaker 4 (00:53:00):

Well, on the Shania Twain stuff, I didn't actually mix that. That was Mike Shipley that mixed that, but I can answer the question still. And that is that it doesn't, honestly, there's different things you have to keep in mind between those kinds of genres. I mean, obviously with a band like Disturbed, you need it to sound heavy, you need it to sound thick. But honestly, to me, mixing is mixing. I mean, you're going to make the disturbed stuff a little bit dirtier and a little bit more aggressive, but it's all the same pool. I think that lots of great mixers can float back and forth between different styles and as long as you know what the end game is, as long as you can put your ears in the ears of listener and what they want to hear. And in some cases it's completely different plain environments. If you're mixing a dance club song, obviously you got to think a lot differently on bottom end versus if you're mixing and more am radio ish kind of song. So I think all the techniques are pretty similar and all the, it is just a matter of knowing what the listeners of that music really expect. I'm not sure if that answered the question exactly the way that he wanted me to, but

Speaker 3 (00:54:12):

It does. I think it's more of a how you think about it rather than routing pro tools differently, I guess. I think he was wondering if you set your pro tools up completely different or something on a different style.

Speaker 4 (00:54:26):

Right, exactly. And with that in mind, the answer to that is no, I don't set it differently. I mean, I'll use different techniques as needed, but I mean I kind have a couple of mixed templates for most music that I mix, unless it's completely different stuff and it is mostly the same. It just looks like a mixing board. Just typically there's not a lot of changes going on from style to style. All the changes are more subjective changes like EQ and compression and all those, any effects, those style of things more than the signal routing.

Speaker 3 (00:55:00):

Yeah, makes sense. So Chris, hard is asking what's your favorite mic for overheads?

Speaker 4 (00:55:05):

Well, I've used a lot of different overhead mics, but honestly, weirdly enough, I know it's not the best or most expensive mic, but I kind of go back to a KG four 50 ones maybe because in my youth, that was the first awesome overhead mic that I had. And even though now I have a lot more choices, I just like how aggressive they sound on drums.

Speaker 2 (00:55:33):

And

Speaker 4 (00:55:34):

Again, I'm not the guy that thinks that just because something is more expensive, it is going to be better. It's like wine. I mean the most expensive bottle isn't always the bottle you like. And I think particularly nowadays when Al Rock is more about style than it is necessarily about, let's say sonic purity. So for me, the 4 51 just seemed to do the right thing for me. And whether it's because I'm used to it or not, I mean, I don't know, I just put up some coal ribbon mics up the other day and I love those mics, but it doesn't is just too mellow of a microphone to kind of make drum sound rocking. Cool

Speaker 3 (00:56:10):

Ki luck, which is asking how do you go about developing a song to fit the artist's vision and profile?

Speaker 4 (00:56:15):

Well, most of the time I'm writing with the artist. So usually they'll bring the seed and then I'll just try to expand on that and make that better so I'm not trying to fit a square in a round hole. Other times when it's a writing session, I mean obviously I get on the phone with them ahead of time and just make sure that I know what they're looking for and I'll listen to their catalog. If I don't already know the act, I mean I'll listen to the catalog of what they've had and then you can pretty much tell what they like, where they go with melodies and how they do it. Again, for me, I'm a guy that definitely likes to look under the hood of anything that I'm working on. So I want to know what makes Maria respond to a song more than what makes Ivan from five Finger death punch respond to melody and chords.

(00:57:10):

So I am pretty schooled in theory as well in the sense that I know that Maria, if I have a melody that starts on a ninth rather than the root, that Maria will respond to it better. I technically know what makes people tick and that's what I try to do. I put into my data bank and get all this data and then I try to ignore it and just do what I think is best. But I think the first thing is in our line of work when we're serving artists and serving other people, is to not necessarily put too much of your own stuff in there to really try to assess who they are and what they like and what will work with that band. And I may have a different idea of what will work with them rather than they have, but usually it's a combination of that and you compromise a little bit.

(00:57:52):

And I've been lucky a couple times where I've gotten the artists to try a couple of things and that turns their head around. And I think that if you show them the success, if you can just get them to try some things they wouldn't normally try and they're happy with that result, you just get more and more power in a sense and more and more impact on that artist. And in some ways you unlock Pandora's Box with those people too. I mean, in a good way, although not a bad way in the sense that sometimes people just need a little bit of a nudge or a helping hand or directing them in a very, very small way and they respond to it and go crazy. And you can again take the sound of silence of David. I mean all they did was say, why don't you try singing that on Octa down? And those are really, and he killed it and he nailed it and he just responded to that and took it even further than I thought he would. So a lot of times it's just really just helping them maybe do things still with in their nature, but not necessarily something they'd naturally do.

Speaker 3 (00:58:53):

So speaking of theory, this is actually one of our questions, but you touched on it and I'm curious, how important is theory to you?

Speaker 4 (00:59:00):

Well, I think theory for me and my style has been very important because I liked doing a lot of vocals, a lot of background vocals, and I liked doing stuff like strings. I mean, if I didn't know as much as I do about musical theory, I probably wouldn't have been able to do the sound of silence the way that we actually did it. And I love doing that. I really enjoy that process. On the other hand, theory for some people can, including myself, can become a liability too. And that's why I say you got to learn as much as you can, but then not focus on it or not depend on it. And so say with my son Kane, I mean I kind of guided him in a much different way because I was so schooled growing up that I think that I lost some edge that maybe that other people had that could just naturally play something that they've never done and run with it.

(00:59:49):

Whereas I always had to kind of figure it out in my head and make sure I knew what changes I was going to go to. And whereas some people are just so natural at it, and I think that St. Kane's Sense, he's a different writer and a different producer than me because he's not strapped down to all the theory that I have. And that's why I like writing on guitar. I don't know, I'm not as well versed on guitar as I am on piano or something like that. So to me, sometimes it's just random where my fingers end up and it sounds good or it doesn't sound good. And I think that that's a wonderful place to be for a lot of people. It's just that my nature is that I just got to understand it. Once I do something that somebody likes, I want to know why they like that.

(01:00:32):

Or if I hear a hit song, it's like questions you were asking me earlier on, why do I like that so much? Why do other people like that when I don't like that? I mean, all these questions are sort of theory questions that I really need to know, but I don't think anybody naturally needs that. I think some of the most inventive singers I've worked with, nothing about music. I mean, Ozzy doesn't know a C from a, I mean a lot of the people, the great great singers that I work with aren't strapped and aren't confined to theory. And I think that it helps them more than if they had my knowledge. I mean, that's why they hire me is to give them a little bit of that. But at the end of the day, music makes you feel good, feel bad, it makes you respond or it doesn't. And theory is kind of irrelevant to the big picture other than just understanding. Just like I said, when I hear something, I want to understand why I like that. And so for me, it's a necessary thing.

Speaker 3 (01:01:34):

Definitely. Alright, here's a question from Al Benino. He said that Papa Roach and in this moment snare sound with the tail and reverb. I've been trying to achieve that for a long time. How do you do it? Well,

Speaker 4 (01:01:46):

That's someone who's listening. You know what I mean? I have a lot of similar techniques on a lot of my stuff. Obviously a lot of that comes from compressing the room tone and the overhead. I actually get probably a lot more drum sound out of the overheads than you would think. And if I only had three mics, I'd put two overheads on and one in front of the kick. So a lot of that tail reverb, I mean, I don't really use reverb on drums. I've never used reverb for, well, I shouldn't say never. I mean you sometimes do if it's a particularly slow song or something, but generally like to get as much natural verb out of the room. And you can only do that if you have a room that speaks in that way. The best room I ever had, oddly enough, was my kitchen at the first house when I moved to Vegas. I mean, for whatever reason, when it's set my drums up sort of in the dining room, it just made the drums explode.

Speaker 5 (01:02:43):

Who else has a really good sounding kitchen? Is Bob Marla? Is that right? I was in his house at Nam and he had his drums set up in his kitchen and they sounded killer.

Speaker 4 (01:02:49):

I don't know what it is about that, but about kitchens and stuff. But it just has the right amount of pre lay for the verb and the slap back effect and it just worked out really well. So in order to get some of those tail verbs that I have in some of my recordings, you almost have to have the right kind of room because I'm not dialing a reverb in, I'm making my own reverb by compressing the room in tandem with the snare. But sometimes those kinds of things you can almost only get away with if you have a drummer who's already playing and he's well-balanced as a player, meaning that if the guy's killing his symbols, you're never going to be able to use those overheads for your drums because the symbols are too fricking loud. So some of it is player based and some of it is just technique based of being able to either mix more room tone in, more room mics in or more overhead mics into that snare. And in some cases, not playing symbols really helps or playing less symbols or possibly recording them on a separate take in some cases may really help you compress the heck out of that room and get that reverb tail to kind of start poking through a little bit more that natural reverb tail, not the processed reverb.

Speaker 3 (01:03:58):

So since we're already on the topic of drums, Christopher Clancy is asking, how do you go about processing your drums? They always sound really solid and powerful, yet totally clean. I find that a lot of mixers end up with a lot of mud. What steps do you take to avoid this?

Speaker 4 (01:04:13):

Well, I think honestly some of it again comes from the player. I remember one time I was back in my band days, I was playing in a club and the Sandman came up to me and said, man, it's so easy to make your drum sound good. You have such a great balance. And I didn't understand what he meant, but then I thought about it and he explained it to me, no, your ride's not too loud. So where you're hitting your ride, it's not pinning the overhead. Mike's back and you're snares and kicked, you're hitting your kick loud enough so that it can come through on the rooms. So half the battle is having a good player, but for me it's also recording techniques too in a certain sense. And in some cases, I mean some bands, you're using samples and stuff to supplement. I mean, I never try to depend on them, but in lots of modern music, I mean, it is almost to a point where you have no choice but to supplement sounds.

(01:05:02):

And sometimes that may be as little as just adding a little bit of an 8 0 8 kick to your kick drum. It's just for the bottom end just to have that sign waves kind of extra round bottom end to, in other cases, you're adding just a little bit of a percussive snare, attacky sample on top of the guy's natural snare just to give it a little bit more poke through your mix. So it's not always one way and it's just something you have to struggle with. And even, I'll tell you another thing, another trick that I have is that I am mixing my drums, or at least my not symbols and stuff, but my kick snare and Toms really, really loud in my mix. So if you were to take off my master bus compression or limiting or some of my master bus tools, you would probably be quite surprised with how the mix actually sounds. But I think that that's far more effective than compressing them to death ahead of time and then trying to make 'em sound loud in just a regular uncompressed or unlimited mix.

Speaker 5 (01:06:02):

Have you ever tried a clipper, Kevin,

Speaker 4 (01:06:04):

The DF clipper,

Speaker 5 (01:06:05):

Any clipper?

Speaker 4 (01:06:06):

I'm not sure what you mean by clipper. Is that just like a limiter

Speaker 5 (01:06:08):

Sort of, but it gives you more perceived volume? It's essentially the same thing we're kind of talking about. So what it does is instead of a limiter will punch down the transient of your drum, a clipper will lop it off, meaning it'll keep the transient intact and give you a lot more perceived volume. So you can crank your drums up super loud and clip them. And when you hit the mastering limiter, they're not going to come out, they're not going to adjust in volume, and you're going to maintain all your punch and clarity and impact. So it's kind of just like a different way of doing what you're describing and maintaining the punch and attack of your drum and making it sound super upfront and really aggressive.

Speaker 4 (01:06:42):

Right. No, I've never tried that, but oddly enough, I've done something similar, and I haven't tried it in the more modern version approach Pro tools, but somewhere around Pro Tools nine, I found that if you routed things through an ox and completely redlined it and clipped it, it wouldn't give you that digital white noise. It would just lop off. It literally looked like a square wave on top. But to me it works so much better than limiters, at least the ones I had at the time. But I used it so much that I almost felt embarrassed that I thought this is technically completely incorrect. And if anybody was watching me, I'd be embarrassed. But audio-wise, the result that I was listening to sounded awesome. So that's just another rule that I've developed into is that I don't care what anybody says. It sounds good. It doesn't sound good. Use your own intuition and maybe you'll break some new ground.

Speaker 3 (01:07:36):

You actually answered the next question. So here's the last question we've got is from Chris Holmes, and he's saying that I'll just read it as if it's him. I'd really like to know your thought process on automation. From the videos on YouTube. It looks like your sessions are filled with all kinds of plugin volume and EQ automation. It would be interesting to know a bit more of why and when.

Speaker 4 (01:08:00):

So I think that's the best thing about digital land these days is the automation. And yeah, my sessions are fully automated in so many different ways. Even the master, the Master bus compression limiting is automated so that it speaks differently from the verse to the course. And those are things we kind of couldn't do back in the old days. I mean, it was just so much work to ride and you just never get the Fader rides, right? Well, now there's no excuse to have 'em wrong. So I just find sometimes it's better to ride volume levels in a Pro Hills rig rather than just compressing it to death, or at least riding it first and making it as even as you can. And then using gentle compression just to kind of for texture. But I'm riding everything from volume levels to effects sends obviously constantly, particularly on vocals, just the tail ends of words.

(01:08:58):

And the reality is you can use ducking delays and different things like that, but I just find that the old school, by dialing it in is just the best way. Then you can really control how loud every delay is. And I think that's really important if you want your mixes to sound as good as they possibly can. So there's automation like that. Even automation on EQs on a vocal. I mean, if the singer say in particular where someone like Maria from in this moment who goes from a whisper to a scream on any given song. I mean obviously her voice is going to sound very different throughout that whole process, so I'm going to have to automate low, mid when she's getting up close to the mic and singing like this versus when she's backing away and screaming her lungs out. I mean, so I'm really automating almost a wholly vocal from start until end. Some of it may be just a little bit of three K taken out when they're too aggressive, and some of it's like when they sing quieter and get close to the mic, the proximity effect or just the natural tendencies of the voice to have more low, mid, I'm dialing that down. So definitely automation for me is a key thing to making things sound balanced without making them sound stupidly compressed. And sometimes that kind of compression can lead to other problems too. So definitely I'm not afraid to draw.in my screen and move it around.

Speaker 3 (01:10:23):

Awesome. Well, Kevin, thank you so much for coming on. Thank you for sharing so much and just being on here for this long and answering all our questions in that much detail. You've been an amazing guest and honored to have you on here.

Speaker 5 (01:10:37):

Yes, definitely. Thank you for being so generous with your time.

Speaker 4 (01:10:40):

Sure. No bra. I really appreciate the questions you guys asked. I mean, they were all really good questions and hopefully your viewers will appreciate that too. And as well, I mean, I love Dfx Excite. I don't know if that overlaps with this podcast, but I mean, I just use it on banjo yesterday again, so I mean, that's awesome. I'm probably using it in ways you never thought that anybody would, but it's a great tool. We love that. And honestly, it's because of those kind of things that I know that you guys are really doing some great work and with your podcast or your products that you're making, I think it's really cool. And I think that you guys are probably young guys that are going to do a lot of great things. So best of luck to you. Thank you, we

Speaker 1 (01:11:25):

Appreciate it. The Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast is brought to you by STEM Audio. Stem Audio creates zero compromise recording gear that is light on the wallet only. The best components are used and each one goes through a rigorous testing process with one thing in mind, getting the best sound possible. Go to stem audio.com for more info to ask us questions, make suggestions and interact. Visit.