JAY MAAS: Computer Science & Punk Rock, The Psychology of Mixing, and Phase Alignment

Speaker 1 (00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast, brought to you by the 2017 URM Summit, a once in a lifetime chance to spend four days with the next generation of audio professionals and special guests, including Andrew Wade, Kane Churko, Billy Decker, fluff, Brian Hood, and many more. The inspiration, ideas and friendship you'll get here are the things that you'll look back on as inflection points in your life. Learn [email protected]. The URM podcast is also brought to you by heirloom microphones. Heirloom microphones are high-end condenser microphones with something that has never been seen in the microphone industry, a triangular membrane with our patented membranes and our tailored phase linear electronics. Your recording and live experience will never be the same heirloom. Our microphones will help you discover clarity. Go to E-H-R-L-U-N-D SE for more info, and now your host, Joey Sturgis, Joel Wanasek and Eyal

Speaker 2 (01:05):

Levi. Hey everyone. Welcome to the Joey Sturgis Forum podcast once again, thanks for listening. Thanks for tuning in, and today we're going to be talking to special guest Jay Maas. Am I saying that right?

Speaker 3 (01:16):

You are

Speaker 2 (01:17):

Correct. Awesome, awesome. Thank you for joining us and welcome.

Speaker 4 (01:20):

Thanks, man. Thanks for having me. Yeah, I just want to say that Jay is in Australia right now and it's seven 30 in the morning and I think I feel like seven 30 in the morning. Studio time is more like waking up at 3:00 AM for something.

Speaker 5 (01:36):

Hold on a second. I do that shit every single day of my entire career.

Speaker 2 (01:41):

Yeah, but yeah, but you're a unicorn. Yeah, you're a unicorn. You're one of those weirdos.

Speaker 3 (01:45):

I agree. It's early

Speaker 2 (01:48):

Now. Do you ever find, I guess we'll just open this right up. This is questions on topic about time, waking up in the morning and stuff. Do you get bands to get on that level or what is it? How does that work for you?

Speaker 3 (02:01):

It varies, but typically, yeah. I have bands adhere to my schedule just because my studio is usually booked out with night sessions and B room sessions and all this stuff too, so it's pretty important that they come in during the hours that we kind of allocated. That's not to say that a lot of times sessions don't run late or whatever, but yeah, typically we try to get everybody up bright eyed, bushy tailed, coffee, let's go.

Speaker 2 (02:25):

So you mean you run your business like an actual organized business? That's pretty cool. Yeah, I try the opposite of what most studio experiences I've been a part of have been. So yeah, as I understand it, you trained at Berkeley. What, can you tell us a little bit about that and just maybe just give us your story in terms of how you got started.

Speaker 4 (02:49):

I want to just before you say that, was it worth it?

Speaker 3 (02:52):

Okay, so this is actually a pretty good story.

Speaker 4 (02:54):

Dropped out. I dropped out, so I've got my opinion. Oh,

Speaker 3 (02:56):

Did you?

Speaker 4 (02:56):

Yeah. What's yours? Yeah,

Speaker 3 (02:58):

I bet I dropped out quicker. So basically when I was in between my junior and senior year of high school, I think my mom realized pretty early, the only thing my child is going to be good at is music and skateboarding, and there's probably more money in music, arguably maybe not. And so I went to the Berkeley summer sessions, which is this five week intensive course that focuses on white guitar, planes, songwriting. Oh, I graduated in 98, so it must have been 97.

Speaker 4 (03:31):

Whoa. That's when I went

Speaker 3 (03:32):

No way

Speaker 4 (03:33):

To the summer

Speaker 3 (03:34):

Session. Yeah, dude, totally. That's really weird.

Speaker 2 (03:36):

Crazy.

Speaker 3 (03:39):

Yeah, so I was there in 97 and the trajectory of my life really just looked like, okay, it looks like Jay's going to be playing music. So I ended up applying for and getting into Berkeley the following year, which is insane. My grades were terrible due to the skateboarding and music, and so I got in and I was in line to get my photo id and I just was like, dude, I don't want to do this. It was so much money and I was like, I just want, I had another band and we were supposed to go on tour and there was all this shit and I was just like, fuck this. So I just didn't, I got out of line and I went up to the ER's office and was like, Hey, can I get my money back? And they were pretty good. They were like, yeah, actually you can get most. And I was like, great, let's do that. And instead I went and I rolled in a computer science program, but then I just kept touring and touring and touring. So I've been finishing that degree still online. I'll finish this year, but even now that I'm not in defeat anymore, I still travel a ton for recording, so I still need to do a degree, I don't know, flexible with my location.

Speaker 4 (04:51):

Is there a reason you feel the need to finish it? Is it just because you'd like to finish what you started or is there an actual career reason to finish it? It sounds like career wise things are already in place.

Speaker 3 (05:03):

Yeah, things are pretty good. My reasons for finishing would be money. I've already invested into it. I get nothing from it if I don't finish it. I'm just the type of person that finishes things and even if it takes me a decade and yeah, I don't know. I mean, the other thing too is I'm a very avid planner, so I'm thinking to myself, okay, well down the road, am I going to be, I mean the industry's already changed so much in the last 10 years, 10 years from now maybe I'm still a relevant force. Hopefully I'm still a relevant force. I'll definitely be the best engineer I can be in 10 years. I'll be 10 years better than I am now. The bigger questions for me is like, is that going to matter to kids? I always feel like I'm in that movie hook where, but I'm the only one getting older. I'm in Neverland and

Speaker 5 (05:57):

Yes, Peter Pan.

Speaker 3 (05:58):

Yeah, exactly. I'm in Neverland and everyone is staying the same age. My clients are all in their mid twenties and I just keep getting older and better, but will I be the relevant option for them in 15 years when I'm 50? I hope. I don't know.

Speaker 4 (06:17):

It's good to think that way in my opinion, because you don't want to be the guy who didn't think that way and then not be relevant and have a horrible situation when you're that age.

Speaker 3 (06:27):

Yeah, totally. My ultimate dream is to get this degree and then never use it, but whatever.

Speaker 2 (06:34):

Well, I find that interesting. I know I wasn't technically in a computer science class of any sort, but I was definitely into computer science and that played a huge role in how I approach everything from editing to production to business to hobbies and stuff like that. So yeah, I mean that's really cool to meet another person who is in audio, mostly in audio, but also into computer science.

Speaker 4 (07:02):

Do you think about it from a computer science perspective at all? Does any of that apply to the way you approach production?

Speaker 3 (07:09):

Oh, totally. I mean, when I first started, actually Jerry, I listened to your podcast, the working class audio podcast, and that's the first time I had heard that you were so into computer science and it made a ton of sense. So when I first started recording, my mentor was Kurt Ballou from Converge. We love Kurt.

Speaker 5 (07:24):

Yeah, he's awesome. Yeah,

Speaker 3 (07:25):

Kurt Rules and Kurt, I just was like this squeaky wheel that Kurt who kept being like, listen to my mix, listen to my mix. And eventually we became friends and he was actually willing to do so, but I'm like a computer science dude whose favorite band is Fugazi. So my, while I was approaching everything from a software standpoint, both from a financial position because I'd go to God City and the place is full of awesome gear and it's really, really impressive, but I was like, dude, it just seemed like such an insurmountable task to acquire all that shit. So I was like, I want to do this, but I definitely cannot afford to do it the way Kurt is doing it. So I would take a lot of his input and I would apply it to the software domain. I'm an avid cubase, that's a pun. I'm an avid cubase user.

Speaker 2 (08:20):

Nice.

Speaker 3 (08:22):

Yeah, so I started on Nendo and then after Yamaha Bot Steinberg and the two product lines branched off, I obviously followed the Cubase line, but use Pro Tools on a near daily basis. I travel so much. But yeah, so I don't know, I really do. I think about things from a software standpoint first, but then I've gotten into hardware because my influences started there. So I'm really into pieces that are great either on the way in just stressors or 500 series EQs or stuff like that. And then I'm really interested on things on my bus work, but less interested on stemming out a rack tom to a bunch of outboard gear just to print it back in. You know what I mean? I'll make some adjustments on the way in. And

Speaker 5 (09:09):

What are some of your favorite pieces going in?

Speaker 3 (09:11):

For me, I have a retro audio stay level that I think is awesome, especially on the right vocalist combined with the right mic and right. I like two preamps for vocals. Typically that stay level is sick and you combine it with a stressor. Distress is doing more of that lop off the transient stuff and the stay level is doing more of the sweetened mojo, juicy tube stuff.

Speaker 4 (09:34):

What is the stay level? I've heard of it, but I don't really know what it is.

Speaker 3 (09:37):

Think of it as like a mono very mu that's typically used for tracking. So it's how very compressors basically get their compression by varying the voltage to a tube. So it's like that. So it's another take on a very compression, I think very compression is terrible for transient. I had a manly very mu, I might get another one, they're really good, but I had a manly very mu and I hated the compression, but I loved the color. Just something about running shit through there. It's not modern or grabby, but it has a high-end sheen that I don't know how to EQ into anything. And I dunno if it's the sheen or if it's just a combination, but it also does something really pleasing to the low mids. Just takes away some boxiness adds some big bottom stuff. Almost like if you couldn't adjust very mild settings on a pole tech or something like that. Interesting.

Speaker 5 (10:38):

Yeah, definitely. I mean I've got a massive passive and sometimes I'll just use it on my master bus even if I don't eq, just because I like how it sounds engaged. There's just a certain,

Speaker 3 (10:48):

Yeah, that's a great piece.

Speaker 5 (10:49):

Something to it that it just adds and either you like it or you don't.

Speaker 3 (10:53):

Yep. Pretty much the problem I'm finding is just that with recall and workflow and the expense of having stay levels or massive passives or very views around, it's just like what I did is I did an Andrew Shep style blind shootout to my clients and was like, here's one with a very, here's one without, as far as the clients are concerned, half of them are like, I like this one, I like that one. They don't really didn't notice. So it was hard to justify the cost and it was also hard to justify the hit to my workflow. From a personal sonic standpoint, I typically liked the very mu better, but you have to ask yourself too, is that just because I'm a big nerd, I know it's running through the very mu, do I actually prefer this? Am I trying to justify my expense?

Speaker 4 (11:39):

So workflow wise, but I'd be interested to know how you balance using so much outboard but also quick turnaround times that are required nowadays.

Speaker 3 (11:51):

Well, typically for pieces of gear they don't have, I have fatto that I use on next to everything I've found Little that doesn't sound better after running it through the Fatto. I think it's really just the second and third harmonic generation that just brings things forward. It's really pleasing. You can make things ugly with it, but it's kind of hard. But things like my Fatso, which are pretty easily do quick recalls, so I commit a lot of hardware on the way in and then I will use pieces that aren't a complete and total nightmare to recall on the way out. Bus work, drum bus, stereo bus, maybe stereo vocal bus. But I do print as much of that backend as I possibly can. I wish there was a way to print my drum bus stuff back in and still be flexible enough to have someone say, can you add a kick drum? Like fuck, but you kind of can't. But there's also some really great plugins like that Vertigo VSC two Compressor plugin is sick. It actually kind of sounds like hardware. Again, clients don't fucking care. But yeah, I use that. I use my fatso, but most of my hardware stuff's on the way in.

Speaker 4 (13:07):

I think committing is so important anyways, even if you're not trying to do it to save time, it just makes for better mixes. Totally agree.

Speaker 2 (13:16):

It's like a state of mind to get into and to really put yourself out there as well to learn from your lessons or learn from your mistakes. If you put something out into the world on a deadline and you weren't a hundred percent happy with it, you're going to be a little bit more careful about your choices and your decisions on your next project and that's going to make you better. So that's very important, I believe. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (13:39):

I love printing through hardware when you're tracking in terms of committing because it helps you position things for mixing because if you use a different transformer or op-amp or just whatever, it kind of gives each piece of, or should say piece of audio, you run through it like a different identity. So you can position your guitars around your symbols, for example, by just using a different piece of gear and getting its sound on it. So it helps kind of set up stuff for mixing. So I definitely am with you, Jay. I love tracking as much stuff as I can through hardware, and I'll just unnecessarily put something through a piece of gear just to get its tone, even if I'm not using it.

Speaker 3 (14:14):

Yeah, actually the trick I've been using is my patch base is all half normal, so I'll just patch in, I'll let a clean signal go down right into my converters and then especially with things like transient drums and stuff, and then I'll just shoot like, okay, cool, here's my snare on the way in. I'm going to EQ this with maybe an API five 50 B, and then I'm going to hit a distress or whatever on the way in. And as far as I can tell, this sounds fucking sick, but I also have a uncompressed version coming in at the exact same time. I get basically two for one off of one mic, and then if I want to use drum samples or something like that, I can trigger off the uncompressed, I can blend in the compressed. All that stuff's already kind done for me, which is tight.

Speaker 5 (14:56):

Yeah, absolutely. That's awesome. I've totally done that before as well.

Speaker 4 (15:00):

Just out of curiosity, do you mix as you go or is it a whole separate process for you? Oh yeah.

Speaker 3 (15:05):

Oh, I totally mix as I go. Yeah, for

Speaker 4 (15:06):

Sure. So by the time the recording is done, is it kind of close to final ish?

Speaker 3 (15:11):

Yeah, I mean I like making those decisions with the artist. So a lot of times a band's like, okay, we have this much time for tracking, and I'm like, can you stick around for mixing? I'm probably one of the few engineers that likes attended mixing sessions better.

Speaker 4 (15:22):

I think you're the only one that we've talked to in over 60 episodes. Who's said that? Can you guys think of another guy who said that? No, no, you're the one, you're the unicorn. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (15:34):

Tell us your ways.

Speaker 3 (15:35):

Proud to be. No, see, I really like it because I usually have the band pull up, pour a glass of bourbon beer, I don't know, coffee. Depends what time of day is it? Afternoon. And then we'll just kind of kick it and I'll just hitting space bar and then when I hear something that sucks, I'll just hit it again and be like, yo, what do you think about blah blah, blah. Totally rearranging this. Having the artist with me for that. Also being a creative process is really, really fun for me. Also, it makes the, I dunno, you're taking the artist on the adventure with you, so they have the memories of when you guys made that decision together, you're way less likely to get them to fucking him and haw about like, well, I don't really know if I like that effect. And if they don't like it, they'll tell you right then. And they're like, yeah, I think I liked it better before. And you're like, cool, done, sorted over. So you make them a part of the mixing experience and then there might still be one or two little, I can't hear the octave guitar or some bullshit later, but by and large, by the time they walk out the door, they're usually like, dude, we think it sounds fucking awesome. They're emotionally committed as well.

Speaker 4 (16:46):

I guess the fact that you're mixing along the way too helps. It's not like you're starting from scratch with the artists there.

Speaker 3 (16:53):

Yeah, I would not want to do that. I would at least want to get a mix up that when we start to play it, they're already like, yo, this is sick. But we do that while we work. Now that's different. Of course. I do a ton of work for bands that I never meet, so in that case, I ask for references. I try to get on a call and talk about what they're after. A lot of times the bands, especially if they work with me, they feel like I have to tell Jay that I want it really natural. And I'm like, okay, cool. What does that mean to you? And sometimes the records they reference are really natural, like this record, and I'm like, oh shit, that's unnatural shit. Yeah, that's fucking programmed. So I'm like, okay, cool. Really natural like that. Got it.

Speaker 4 (17:36):

So do you use any special tricks to try to decipher what the artist actually means as opposed to what they say?

Speaker 3 (17:43):

Yeah, mostly references. What are you guys listening to? What do you like? That's so much better than listening to them try to wax on about their own sonic envisionment for themselves, which is usually close to useless.

Speaker 4 (17:59):

Yeah, make it sound like it's in space. That's one of my favorite notes I I've ever heard is

Speaker 3 (18:04):

Insane. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 (18:07):

Make it sound like nothing.

Speaker 3 (18:08):

I got a mixed note this year. It said, alright, we love the way it sounds. Hey, can you do a mix where the guitars are quieter on headphones?

Speaker 2 (18:20):

That's

Speaker 3 (18:20):

A good one. What the fuck? What the

Speaker 2 (18:22):

Fuck?

Speaker 3 (18:24):

Fuck. I was like, that's called a second mix.

Speaker 5 (18:26):

It's like some twilight zone shit. I don't even know what to say to something like that.

Speaker 3 (18:30):

Yeah,

Speaker 5 (18:30):

I would just delete the email.

Speaker 2 (18:33):

I think what would happen for me is the translator in me would come out how we talked about being a producer is being a musical translator. People don't know what the fuck they're talking about.

Speaker 4 (18:45):

I think that was our second episode ever, by the way, musical translator for those of you

Speaker 2 (18:49):

Listening. So it's like if someone tells me that, then that tells me that something to do with the panning or the spatial relationship is off. Maybe the guitars need to be more mono or less mono or whatever. So yeah,

Speaker 5 (19:03):

Stereo widener bullshit. Turn it off.

Speaker 3 (19:06):

Yeah, I think this was a case of mid-range. I think this was a case of they played in a really low drop tuning when they took it to their home system. They were like, this sounds sick. And then didn't find themselves having that same power on smaller listening devices. So we ended up doing was actually fatso a ton of harmonic generation, which represents those low fundamentals up in the higher frequencies and then they were happy, but mix it so it's louder in headphones or whatever. I was just like, fuck me.

Speaker 4 (19:38):

You just got to become a detective and understand what they actually mean. Exactly. I think I saw Jay Rustin say he posted once that he got a mixed note that said, could you turn up the drums, guitar vocals and keyboards? And his response was, why don't I just turn down the bass? Yeah. Just turned down the base and it was solved.

Speaker 3 (20:01):

Yeah. Yeah. I think being a recording engineer is funny. You do have to do a lot of that translating, and especially if you do a lot of tracking too. You're like a therapist, you're like a un negotiator. You have to wear all these weird hats and one band member will be trying to leverage his idea through you to other band members like, Jay, don't you think this is a good idea?

Speaker 4 (20:26):

Absolutely. That's so classic. How do you deal with that kind of stuff?

Speaker 3 (20:29):

I draw those lines pretty quickly. I'm like, guys, this is your product. I'll always give you my honest opinion, but nobody's allowed to get butt hurt with me because we're just trying to make a good record

Speaker 4 (20:39):

All in it for the same reason. Yeah, totally. Hopefully

Speaker 2 (20:42):

I like that. And that's something that we heard from Wade. I think he said that on the show.

Speaker 4 (20:47):

He said that pretty sure. Yeah, he did. He said that the way he tells bands is that they shouldn't get offended because they're all in it for the same reason, which is the best song possible so that everyone can profit from it. And it's not about the money, but if the song does well, everybody's careers will keep on going. And that's the name of the game is to be able to keep going. So don't get offended by a suggestion or something. Everybody's in it to win it.

Speaker 3 (21:18):

Yeah, totally. And I think I deal with maybe the other side of clients more than he does. I deal with clients who are too fucking punk who want to basically ensure that people aren't going to like it sometimes.

Speaker 2 (21:35):

That's great.

Speaker 3 (21:36):

Yeah, I'll always be adding these suggestions for listener accessibility reasons. Guys, we haven't repeated a part and everything's distorted. Can I

Speaker 5 (21:46):

Get the black middle low end, please?

Speaker 3 (21:48):

Yeah. Can we do this? And people are like, oh, don't know man. I'm not trying to sell out like, oh dude, trust me, you're not.

Speaker 4 (21:54):

So do you phrase it differently to guys who have the elitist kind of mentality? Do you try to phrase it in a way that won't trigger the, that's corporate music shit mentality.

Speaker 3 (22:08):

Maybe I should not really. My give a fucks are so low that I just am just so straight up. I'm just like, yeah, I think that's stupid. We probably shouldn't do

Speaker 2 (22:20):

Boom. I think we've talked about that too. It's important to be honest like that, but to also know when that doesn't necessarily make sense I think as well because there's been times where being brutally honest wasn't the best course of action. So I'm curious if you've ever encountered that or if you're just straightforward always.

Speaker 3 (22:43):

No. Yeah, look, I've literally never been a dick to any of my clients and I never would be outright a dick. And if I'm saying like, Hey, that's stupid. We've already developed a rapport where I can say that to them and they know that I'm just not a passive aggressive person. I'm not going to take shit personally. We're all here for the same reason. So yeah, you handle different clients differently. They all get handled very honestly, and I'm pretty direct, but yeah, totally. My first day or two of the recording is figuring out, okay, who's the little bitch of the band who actually knows what they're doing? Figuring out every band has the fake democracy where everyone's like, yeah, my opinion matters, but probably there's only one opinion in the room that matters. And figure out, okay, maybe two Who's that guy? And then how do I primarily deal with that guy without making the rest of the band feel like I'm only dealing with that guy?

Speaker 4 (23:38):

What about when it's that guy, but that guy is not the boss, so when the most talented guy with the best vision happens to be a beta male or something,

Speaker 3 (23:50):

I just dealt with that and you give that guy a lot of love and support. You're like, I really think not to name names, but I just recorded this band and they'll figure it out, but I really think such and such has a really good idea right now. Why don't we try that out? And then idiot alpha male guy will then be not wanting to step on my toes. They hired me and I'm supposed to be the all-knowing audio God who's going to change their life. And then we try the idea, lo and behold it works. And then you basically start to build a foundation for that dude in the band like, Hey, yeah, another one of his ideas that seem to be not stupid, maybe we should listen to him.

Speaker 5 (24:27):

He's three for three. Come on, keep him coming.

Speaker 4 (24:29):

Exactly. I've actually had experiences where I guess the musical alpha male is not the alpha male in the band hierarchy personality wise, and this has happened a few different times. So when I say he, I mean a combination of five different guys is he

(24:50):

Will purposefully take himself out of the equation, somehow be out to dinner or doing something or not available so that he doesn't have to cause any sort of disruption against the other guy. So I had a situation on a record I did a couple years ago where one guitar player was fucking stellar and the other guy really sucked. The guy who was stellar was just kind of a pussy, and it was one of these things where it's not like one guy is okay and the other guy's pretty good. It was like one guy's a plus and the other guy's a D minus. So I tried to communicate to him that I needed him in the room while we were tracking guitars at all time. So instead of argue with me or anything, he just left. He didn't want to even confront me and be like, well, I don't want them to feel bad or whatever. He just left completely, came back the next day, and so I recorded the song with the other guy and then when he heard it, he kind of flipped out. He was like, why does that sound like shit?

Speaker 3 (26:02):

Because you left?

Speaker 4 (26:03):

Yeah, because you left dude, because you weren't going to track it. You didn't track it. That's why it sounds like shit. It's not you. It should be you. Yeah,

Speaker 5 (26:12):

I think it's a really great point to just reiterate since we're kind of in the middle of it, talking about how important psychology is, just how actually important fricking learning psychology and learning how to read and work with different types of personalities is as a producer, it's like probably one of the most important skill sets you can develop as a producer, and it's just absolutely the cornerstone of most human interaction you're going to have here in the studio.

Speaker 3 (26:38):

Yeah, I mean it's huge for client retention too.

Speaker 4 (26:41):

It's huge also for just being a dude who gets hired or gets an internship or whatever, for sure. Guys who creep people out or whatever, even if they're skilled, won't get gigs as opposed to people who are just cool to be around.

Speaker 3 (26:56):

Oh, a hundred percent. I think that works for all aspects of life, but definitely in the studio too. It's usually such a emotionally stressful environment. You need dudes who people just like I went through so many interns and the assistant I have now is the fucking man, and people just like, they like him better than they like me. You know what I mean? They just, that's great. Yeah, he's just super talented, super hardworking. Everyone likes him and that was one of the main factors when he came and I met him for the first time, I was like, oh, I just want to kick it with this dude, which means probably other people do too.

Speaker 4 (27:34):

I've had that situation with this dude John Douglas where he's just nicer than me. There's nothing I can do about it. He is, he's just nicer than me. What can I do? I'm a fucking dick.

Speaker 3 (27:47):

These things happen.

Speaker 4 (27:48):

Yeah, no, I think that's really a good thing. I definitely have had guys who, well, John is an amazing engineer, so let's not include him in this, but I've had guys who were somewhat skilled but were just weirdos and never, I couldn't justify taking the time to work them into the process because you constantly have to deal with them, weirding out the clients, and it doesn't matter how good you are if you're weirding out the clients

Speaker 3 (28:18):

And you'll usually know the client will give you a look like, Hey man, fuck this guy. And you kind of look at the client. Yeah, sorry.

Speaker 5 (28:28):

Yeah, they usually make a comment to you within the first two or three days if they don't like it. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (28:32):

So we mentioned this earlier, but I just want to bring this up. You said that you travel a lot for recording and it's interesting, I used to tour 10 months a year and when I decided to stop touring and go studio full time and now with what I do with all this online stuff, one of the things that has remained important to me is traveling and working in different places. I've never been able to shake that bug. Have you always been into traveling or is it since touring, you just have always wanted to keep that being in different places a part of your life?

Speaker 3 (29:09):

Yeah, it's really ironic because I'm such a homebody and I have to work and I go where the business is and I go where the good opportunities are. I'm not so much of a homebody, I'd shoot myself in the foot, but no, actually I don't really traveling that much, but I've chosen to be in a band my whole life and then now being an engineer that does projects overseas all the time, so that's odd how that worked out, but I don't hate it. It's fine, but I like this cool house with my coffee maker and my big TV and all my shit and I'm just like, maybe it's just been on the road for the last 17 years. I understand. I just miss and sort of romanticize what it is to wake up and wipe my ass with my towel, you know what I mean? Well,

Speaker 5 (29:57):

You can trade with me. I need to get the hell out. Well,

Speaker 4 (30:01):

In 2015 I made it a point to travel as little as possible. I had racked up 75,000 sky miles the last three years in a row every year and it was over it. I just wanted to stay in one place and focus on building what we're all building together and that was nice. But I feel ready to travel now. I've been at Joey's place for a month and a half, and if he doesn't kill me, I'm having a good time. I'm enjoying not being home.

Speaker 2 (30:36):

Cool, cool. I personally don't like working in new environments. I think it's really destructive to the flow. I think one of the most important things that has been very, very responsible for my success is becoming comfortable in my own spot. Getting the table at the right height, getting the mouse pad that you like, getting the speakers put in just the right place, getting the right screen that you like, all these things. For sure.

(31:05):

That to me was everything. And also doing that was what made me prepared for pretty much anything a band would ever throw at me. A band would come in and say, oh, we want to do this, we want to do that. Well, I'd had everything set up to where that was pretty much doable, whatever it is. If you go into a commercial facility, like a normal studio, let's say NRG studios or something, everything that you want to do is totally doable, but the problem is it all is just going to take time because they set it up and tear it down and because different clients are always coming in and out and it really is kind of like a roadblock sometimes, especially if someone's coming into the studio and they're all amped up and they're in a creative zone or something and then you've got two hours of setup and they just lose that. I couldn't agree more. It happens a lot, so I totally see that. Yeah,

Speaker 5 (32:04):

But don't you ever go stir crazy? I mean, for example, I've been operating out of the same, well two spots now for eternity, and it's just like after six months to a year I'm like, I got to get the hell out of here. I got to go fly somewhere on vacation. It's got to be really exotic and it's got to be very different from here because I'm just sick of being in the same shit every single day. And I'm with you on definitely workflow, but I always lose my mind if I'm doing the same thing for too long in the same location. Same

Speaker 2 (32:33):

Here. This is interesting because a lot of bands go through this too, and I've noticed that and part of my whole, this goes in a lot of different ways. Part of the whole experience for what I do, being out in the country and being away from things, that's super attractive to labels and managers because they're like, oh, the band's going to be working on the album. They're not going to be going to the fucking whiskey or the rainbow room or whatever it's called every night. That sounds cool. But then you get the band in and you've got to deal with them, right? You've got to deal with how bored they are, how interested they are keeping them on track and productive and all that. So I don't know. I've got a situation now where I feel like it works pretty well, but it's super important once you start getting further and further into your career, you got to find a way to balance everything.

Speaker 4 (33:23):

I'm just going to say that this is a perfect example of how just different people work different ways and it's most important for people to figure out what works best for them because if I'm in the same place for too long, I almost feel like the light bulb doesn't turn on as bright as usual. It gets duller and duller as the situation becomes more and more comfortable. And when I go to a new place, it's a lot easier for me to keep a tighter schedule and to be a lot more in the moment and just do a better job. It's weird. I mean, I've got a pretty sick home setup too, and there's a lot of value in that. I just like to keep a balance of home time and travel for work time. I like both.

Speaker 2 (34:12):

Yeah. I'll also say that it's weird because I don't get stir crazy, but throughout since the age of 18, I've literally sat on a computer

Speaker 1 (34:22):

Pretty

Speaker 2 (34:23):

Much as many waking hours as possible, so I'm kind of into that. But other bands are pretty much every band is not,

Speaker 4 (34:31):

I think my parents fucked me up. I think that's what it is. They just had me traveling from the time that I was born all the time, and it's cool and all, but I feel like that was probably just ingrained from a really, really young age that that's how life is. And so if I don't do that, I dunno, I feel like it's got something to do with that because the amount that I traveled in those formative years is kind of unreasonable. So it's probably stems back from that. Thanks mom.

Speaker 3 (35:01):

Yeah, totally. I feel you there. I traveled and moved a ton, but I think for me, I'm probably just romanticizing home because I just was like, I'm never there and I'm super bad at vacation. Any girl I've ever dated has just hated my guts because for so many reasons. But one of which would be we're like, oh, we're finally at the beach. Isn't this great? And I'm just like, dude, this fucking sucks. It's sandy and the water's cold and I have emails coming in and I'm just the worst. You

Speaker 5 (35:38):

Got to turn off that internet and that phone

Speaker 3 (35:40):

Impossible.

Speaker 2 (35:42):

I understand.

Speaker 5 (35:43):

I have to do it by force. So I've just adapted,

Speaker 2 (35:45):

This is going to sound weird, but I totally had to learn how to vacation. And one of the quickest ways to do that, and this is a suggestion to anyone listening who doesn't know how to vacation properly like you Jay, is you got to just put yourself in a scenario where that shit just isn't available to you. I went on a cruise and the internet was fucking $20 a minute or some shit.

Speaker 3 (36:12):

It

Speaker 2 (36:12):

Was just retard. It was just to the point where it was like, I'm not wasting my money on this. I'm not going to get the internet. You don't have cell phone signal, you're in the middle of nowhere, you're in the ocean. You go out on the ship, you look around, all you can see is blue water and blue sky, and there's nothing else. There's no land visible in any direction and it forces you to just have a good time and to be on vacation. That's a good first one, a good first vacation for anybody that's struggling with that,

Speaker 4 (36:41):

That's actually what I like about cruises too, is that you literally have no choice in the matter. Because if I have a choice, I'm going to answer my emails.

Speaker 5 (36:50):

Why do you think I always go to weird places in Russia because they don't have fucking internet and iPhone and all that shit, and it's like there's literally no way for me to communicate. So when I come back in three weeks, I've actually relaxed because I haven't checked my email s two times a day compulsory. I don't have any voicemails or texts freaking me out right before I go to bed. And it's nice. You can actually enjoy yourself. You have to physically unplug. It's the only way to do it.

Speaker 3 (37:14):

I go to weird places in Russia for reasons that may not be appropriate for this podcast, but that's another good reason to go. We got to compare notes

Speaker 4 (37:22):

Then reasons that are not appropriate for the podcast now that's interesting. Well hold on. What kind of podcast is this?

Speaker 3 (37:32):

Let's change the

Speaker 2 (37:32):

Format. Let's just, yeah, let's change the subject on that one. We do have a couple of questions from the audience. Maybe we can jump into that. We are getting close to time here, so let's see what we got. Daniel, let's

Speaker 4 (37:44):

Just say Daniel,

Speaker 2 (37:46):

Thanks for being subscriber, Daniel. He's asking how do you process your rooms and I'm assuming it means drum rooms.

Speaker 4 (37:53):

Well, yeah. And he says in a general philosophy about how you keep things sounding natural while still punching through a mix.

Speaker 3 (38:01):

Yeah, I get that question a lot. I think I was actually going to write a tweet but forgot yesterday about room mics and about how, it's funny that I'll set up 16 mics, but there's two little mics that no one notices in the back of the room that are doing half the work at least. So it really, because they are room mics, it really, really depends on the room. If you have a really small room, it's borderline, don't even bother. But you can get some awesome results if the drums have a little bit of area to breathe, very, very selective. Equalization is really important. So mitigate the things that are annoying in the EQ and try to highlight the things that are cool. I find really I just mitigate the annoying and that sort of highlights the things that are cool for me. And then good compression like compressors that are awesome.

(38:50):

Distressors are obviously a first choice for this. 1176 are really good for this. And the plugin iteration, like the CLA 76 is totally doable. I was using the API 2,500 plug to do this for a while, but I just don't think it's as open as the CA 76. So you could use that or you could use the UA 76 too. But in phase management, so if you aren't out there with a tape measure while you're setting up your drums, and if you don't fully understand phase, that's the first thing. Thank you. You can't have your room mics do you? Yeah, you can't have your room mics or any of your mics doing you any favors until you truly understand phase. So once you understand phase, then get your measuring tape out, do your stuff. Then before you record anything, get deep into your samples, make sure that all your transients are lining up, nip that shit in the bud, then you can just work and you won't have problems on the back end because time align and phase issues on the end of a mix, you're fucked, man.

(39:51):

You're just totally crippled. So if you get all that stuff right, your drums should sit very nicely into your rooms. I do an XY pair almost always, and basically as far away from the kit as I can get. I'm not worried about my high hat being on the left and my right symbol being on the right or anything like that. These are two iterations of reflected mono that are capturing the amplitude of the waveform at the exact same time. So they're basically two phase compatible mono iterations of the drum set that I then hard pan because it still sounds fairly centered since the capsules of the microphones are so close to begin with. And yeah, dude, and then you can do it two ways. You can start with those and then start tucking close mics in. Or you can start with close mics and start tucking the rooms in.

(40:40):

I just kind of sit there and juggle the faders till it sounds cool to me. But the most important thing is a lot of times on room mics, you're going to have to shave off some super high end. You're probably going to have to shave. There'll be one or two spots where your symbols have resonant frequencies in those rooms in the mid range, anywhere from two to 12 K, there might be a couple peaks that are piercing and annoying. Fuck it. You can get in there and notch those if you want. And then maybe some just general, what do I want the vibe, these rooms sound boomy. Cool. So let's high pass a little bit and let's tilt down a little bit. You don't have to be a scientist about it, but just make 'em sound cool to you and compress them with something, an appealing compressor I guess. Yeah. But

Speaker 4 (41:24):

I have a question about your rooms actually about lining them up. So when you have a distant room, for instance, and naturally the transient will come in a little later, not like when you have a top snare and bottom snare that are out of phase or something when the transient just happens later because it's further away. Do you line those up to the No, definitely not transient. Okay. I don't either.

Speaker 3 (41:49):

No. Yeah, because if the transient in the room wave form is far enough away, appropriately, far enough away, it's going to be further back than basically almost all the energy of the close mic piece of the transient anyway. So it's not really conflicting with the bulk of the close mic transient, it's like its own thing. And that little bit of delay is part of what makes it sound bigger.

Speaker 4 (42:13):

Yes. Cool. Yeah, some guys line when they line stuff. I just wanted to clarify this. I didn't want people to think that you meant line up every single transient, even distant mics, because I know some guys who do that. I've tried it. It sounds weird. It doesn't. What gives it that delay? Yeah, I don't think

Speaker 3 (42:32):

It sounds right.

Speaker 4 (42:33):

Is that delay? A hundred percent. Alright, so we have a question from Wes DeLoach, which is, well two part question. First is I'd like to know if Jay works with any amp sims and how he feels about them. And I would also like to hear what his typical mastering chain consists of specifically what he uses for mix bus compression and how hard he compresses the mix.

Speaker 3 (42:54):

Oh, okay. So Amp Sims, and I don't typically play that nicely, but that's just like there are a million great records that Ucms actually records I didn't even think had sims on them. I found out were sim, oh dude, perfect example. Even though it's ax effects, that Deftones record with the weird Japanese name, that record sounds sick. And then I found out it's all ax effects and I was like, well, fuck me. Sounds amazing. But for most of the bands I get, I have a Kemper. I kind of think it sucks. I don't really use it that much. To me it just sounds weird in 2D and as a guitar player, I don't know, I'm just not firm. It's newest firmware. Maybe I haven't dicked around with it enough. But there's an inherent color to the Kemper, I guess for lack of a better term, that I hear immediately. And it's actually for me more on the back end of the note than the front end. So I think it does a good job of and getting the attack of the note, but it's like the resonance of the note that doesn't seem to be as nice on my ears as the resonance of just a speaker moving against a mic.

Speaker 4 (44:03):

I know exactly what you're talking about. And that's been different on different firmware versions. And what's interesting is that they got it right and then on the future update, they got it wrong

Speaker 3 (44:15):

Of course. So

Speaker 4 (44:15):

I've kept mine on the, I don't remember which one it is, I'll look it up and email it to you, but there is a version where they got especially the low end, which was one of the biggest problems with it. They got that right. But I know exactly what you're talking about. And on the shittier firmware versions, that's definitely an issue.

Speaker 3 (44:32):

And for me, I own a ton of awesome amps. I own a bunch of great cabs and mics and stuff. So I actually find it's quicker to just throw up a microphone that is good in front of a guitar sound that is good and fucking call it a day rather than dick around with, well, all this shit with the camper, I'm usually not as happy with it anyway. It's usually a little less inspiring to the types of artists that I use. I almost never track di. I'm super committal. So even when I'm overseas, people are like, how come you're not taking a di? I'm like, because I'm punk as fuck, but punk

Speaker 4 (45:08):

Ass. There you go. Today's moral. That's awesome.

Speaker 3 (45:11):

Yeah, so I just like, yeah, I mean, do you like the way it sounds? It sounds good today, right? And they're like, yeah. And I'm like, so it'll probably sound good tomorrow.

Speaker 4 (45:24):

I love it. Trusting

Speaker 3 (45:26):

Your taste is really important. Totally, dude. Totally. And to touch upon that guy's question on mastering and mixed bus compressors. So I'm a huge fan of, I've mentioned it already, but my empirical labs fatso on bus work. It's great, especially for digital recordings, that's exactly what that piece of gear was intended to do was add cool tape ish harmonic stuff and also round off annoying high-end stuff that a lot of times you don't even hear it depending on your monitoring system, but you'll be fucking happy that it's gone. And what's cool about the fatso is that it attenuates that stuff dynamically. So it's not like a static EQ or anything. It's like the signal's coming in, I don't want to say it's analyzing the signal, it's not a computer, but it's a real compressor with a detector path and it comes in and it's got that high end attenuation circuit and it's totally variable.

(46:18):

It's like the best way to put working with Albert gear versus software is like software is an algorithm where if you conduct the same experiment every time, you'll get the same result. But what's cool about hardware and to me sonically appealing is that you won't get the same result in a good way. It'll be fucking close. You know what I mean? It's like if you tried as hard as you could to hit the snare with your left hand at the same force in the center of the snare, it's going to sound a shit ton like the snare that came before it, but it will not be identical. And that's like I get my jollies from that shit. I think that's cool.

Speaker 4 (46:54):

Even when you're programming drums, you should take that into consideration. Taking that kind of stuff into consideration, even when working with fake stuff will help it sound 80 times better in my opinion.

Speaker 3 (47:05):

Yep. I agree. I mean in the rock genre anyway. For sure.

Speaker 4 (47:09):

Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so we want to do a segment with you that we're going to rapid fire gear choices to you. So Joel will mention an instrument and we just want to hear the first thing that comes to mind. And feel free to go into detail or not go into detail or whatever you feel like sharing about it. It

Speaker 5 (47:29):

Sweet. Alright, here we go.

Speaker 3 (47:31):

Overheads. Overheads would be my purple audio. Odd equalizers. They're inductor. EQs. They're super sweet on the top end.

Speaker 5 (47:39):

Trumpet.

Speaker 3 (47:40):

Did you just say trumpet? Yeah.

Speaker 5 (47:42):

Abs the fucking boot. I did.

Speaker 2 (47:44):

That's the correct answer.

Speaker 5 (47:49):

I was just making sure you guys are awake. Okay. Distorted heavy electric guitar.

Speaker 3 (47:53):

I guess I just used a Royer 1 0 1. It was awesome.

Speaker 5 (47:56):

Kick drum direct.

Speaker 3 (47:57):

Oh, the tried and true man. A KGD one 12.

Speaker 5 (48:01):

All right. How about acoustic guitar?

Speaker 3 (48:04):

Oh, let's see. Any nice small diaphragm condenser. Probably an XY pair somewhere around the 12th fret. Call it about 10 inches back base, base, stay level all day.

Speaker 5 (48:18):

Nice. What about, let's see here, snare.

Speaker 3 (48:23):

Actually, people hate this. I really like MD 4 21 on snare. People say the polarity pattern's too wide and there's too much high hat spill and they're not wrong. But I think that the spill I get from the high hat is much more listener friendly than that weird mid-range 57 spill off access spill. So even though it has more spill, I think the spill is more usable. And for my mixing style, it just works better.

Speaker 5 (48:46):

Vocals.

Speaker 3 (48:47):

Vocals. This old company, they're gone now, but they're called Sound Deluxe. Sound Deluxe. U 1 95 recently, or not that recently, but the company was purchased by Bach. I haven't tried their stuff, but that old sound deluxe stuff is awesome. Yeah,

Speaker 5 (49:01):

No kidding. I didn't know they were acquired. That's nuts. Yep. I remember when that mic came out.

Speaker 3 (49:05):

Yeah, it's super good.

Speaker 5 (49:06):

Last but not least, how about piano?

Speaker 3 (49:08):

Piano? Probably a space pair, maybe a KGC four 14. The dynamics are tricky with the piano, so also super quiet preamp. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (49:18):

All right. Well thanks for playing

Speaker 2 (49:20):

Awesome answers. Thank you again for joining us today. We really appreciate your time and I'm glad to know that there's more of people like me out there in the world that think like a robot.

Speaker 3 (49:35):

Absolutely. We should start a support group.

Speaker 2 (49:39):

Yeah, maybe that's in the near future. Some kind of Facebook support group for

Speaker 3 (49:43):

Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (49:44):

For us. So yeah, if people want to check you out, I know you have a website. I think it's J-A-Y-M-A-A s.com. Check it out. You can see some of the Gary's got on there. It's pretty cool website. And thanks again, man.

Speaker 3 (49:59):

Yeah, my pleasure man. Anytime.

Speaker 5 (50:00):

Yeah, thanks Jay. It's been awesome. Cool. Alright,

Speaker 2 (50:02):

See you guys.

Speaker 1 (50:03):

The Unstoppable Recording Machine podcast is brought to you by the 2017 URM Summit, a once in a lifetime chance to spend four days with the next generation of audio professionals and special guests, including Andrew Wade, Kane Chico, Billy Decker bluff, Brian Hood, and many more. The inspiration, ideas and friendship you'll get here are the things that you'll look back on as inflection points in your life. Learn [email protected]. The URM podcast is also brought to you by heirloom microphones. Heirloom microphones are high-end condenser microphones with something that has never been seen in the microphone industry, a triangular membrane with our patented membranes and our tailored phase linear electronics, your recording and live experience will never be the same. Loo. Our microphones will help you discover clarity. Go to E-H-R-L-U-N d.se for more info to get in touch with the RM podcast. Visit podcast and.