CHRIS SERNEL: The 45-Second Rule, The Art of the Hook, The Numbers Game of Pop

Speaker 1 (00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast, brought to you by Ivanez Guitars and Basses. Ivans strives to make high quality cutting edge musical instruments that any musician can afford and enjoy. Visit ivanez.com for more info. And now your hosts, Joey Sturgis, Joel Wanasek, and a Eyal Levi.

Speaker 2 (00:22):

Good morning everybody. You're listening to the Joey Sturgis Forum podcast. I am Joel Wanasek, and with me is Eyal Levi as always. How you doing Eyal?

Speaker 3 (00:29):

Good, how are you doing?

Speaker 2 (00:31):

I'm fantastic today. So Joey is where today he's out at the Grammy's in LA doing some important stuff or something like that? Well,

Speaker 3 (00:37):

It's not the Grammys itself, it's some Grammy voting thing.

Speaker 2 (00:42):

Yeah, nothing important and we don't care and we don't miss 'em anyway, so No, just kidding. So today on the show we have Chris Sernel. It's going to be Tips and tricks, and Chris is a LA based pop songwriter. Well, I think he writes more stuff than that. We're going to ask him in a second. But Chris, I've known for many years and I've worked with a lot of artists that have worked with Chris and they all love working with Chris. They think he's brilliant and he's a really awesome songwriter, so I'm personally really excited to have him. So Chris, how are you doing, buddy? I'm good, I'm good. Thanks for having me on the show. So Chris, why don't you just brief everybody in our audience and tell us some of the stuff that you've worked on and then we'll get into drilling you with questions.

Speaker 4 (01:19):

Okay. Back in the days, I played in a band called Escape from Earth and did a solo project called Oh Hush, both of which didn't do a whole lot, but cut my teeth along the way. And then I started doing more songwriting and producing, and I've worked with SLO and Jason Derulo and JLo, so I got the lows covered pretty well.

Speaker 2 (01:37):

That's important.

Speaker 4 (01:38):

I mean, it's actually a pretty good market. I mean, there's some pretty hot lows. There's PLO too. I got to see if I can work on that one. Maybe not sure. That's my style. This year I just had a couple songs on a band called Hey Violet, they're signed to Capital On Five Seconds of Summer's Label. I did two songs on that EP and then I did a song with a girl named B Miller on Hollywood. It's actually, I think it's her current single, it's called I Dare You. It's at Radio Disney right now. I don't know how I feel about that, but it feels much bigger than Radio Disney. I didn't think it was a Disney song, but I did that one. And then maybe my greatest musical achievement to date in my entire life, probably ever, I produced the new Poopourri song and music video. Oh, that's amazing. By

Speaker 2 (02:23):

The way, I watched that the other day and I died laughing. Very well done, by the way.

Speaker 4 (02:27):

Mean there was seven different genres in the song and maxed out the tracks twice over in Pro Tools. It was good times.

Speaker 3 (02:35):

So how did you go from being in a band that didn't do much like you said, to writing for huge artists?

Speaker 4 (02:44):

It's a good question, and actually I shouldn't have said that. We didn't do much, but,

Speaker 3 (02:48):

Well, I was just using your words.

Speaker 4 (02:50):

I know, and I shouldn't have said it. I was like, man, I started this interview off great, just coming out of the gate, downplaying everything I've ever done. So my band escaped from Earth actually. We did great as far, we ended up with a small deal with Sanctuary, but we played Chicago. We probably sold out the Metro 20 times in Chicago and we toured with CKY and Taproot and Switchfoot and a whole host of bands.

Speaker 3 (03:13):

So you still did more than most bands will ever do?

Speaker 4 (03:16):

Probably, yeah. I mean realistically, yeah, but we couldn't get over the hump, so it was after the Escape from Earth stuff. I was like, you know what? I'm going to do something that's totally the opposite of what you're supposed to do in music. And I started a solo project called Oh Hush, and I was like, okay, I'm not going to put up any pictures of who's in the band, which is basically me. A couple of friends helped me out, never going to play a show, never going to tell anybody who's in the band and just do a secret band on MySpace. It was 2007 eight. That's awesome. And I'm like, I can write a good song and I can produce it. And before I knew it, the thing started to blow up and it was like, who's this secret band and blogs and everything are hitting us up.

(03:58):

Is it a Fuel By Ramen supergroup with Pete Wentz and Butch Walker and Haley from Paramore, and we just kind of rode that wave and we did a lot of crazy marketing things online. My favorite one was when we A, we used to do limited run, so we said, we're going to sell a hundred t-shirts and we can make this a marketing blog. Actually, we're going to sell a hundred t-shirts and everybody's going to get a free surprise. So we do a hundred shirts. We made a puzzle, broke the puzzle into a hundred pieces. Everybody's got a single puzzle piece. They come together online to solve some puzzle and did some blog and it leads to a new song and it was scavenger hunts. And that's ultimately, so the answer to this question is ultimately that oh hush project kind of blew up and every label in the country wanted not to sign us, but at least figure out what was going on, see a show, meet us, and we were making money and having a good time with it.

(04:46):

So it was like, I'm just going to keep rolling with this. And we finally found an a and r person, Heather Pegs, she was over at Sony at the time, I'm not sure. But anyway, she made an offer and then ultimately went over to Atlantic and pitched her boss, Mike, Karen on me, and Mike's like, listen, I'm not signing this effing secret band mystery person, but I love the songs and would this dude be willing to do a publishing deal? So I was like, I'm done with sitting in a van and eating dirt every day and playing in podunk towns all over the world, or not the world, the country. So I was like, yeah, let's do this publishing deal. So that's what ultimately led to my publishing deal, which led me to like, Hey, I'm going to do more songwriting and production for other people. So it's interesting that my path to a songwriter producer was through the artist route. So yeah, that's kind of how I got here and started doing it at least.

Speaker 2 (05:39):

That's awesome. So let's transition and talk about some songwriting tips and tricks and things like that. So let's talk about actual song construction and arrangement and a lot of more radio stuff. And I come from the rock radio type background and you've got more of the pop radio and I know we've both done some different crossover genres and stuff like alt rock and I know you do a whole bunch of different types of things. What sort of arrangement tricks and tips and things like that do when you have a very, let's just say very narrow accepted, it has to kind of fit into this box. How do you go around making that interesting for the listener?

Speaker 4 (06:15):

Well, first of all, if you don't get to the chorus in 45 seconds, I don't want to work on the song. Absolutely. I mean it's things like that. I'm not sure if you're talking more construction or I mean,

Speaker 2 (06:29):

Well, let's talk straight arrangement. Okay, so say we've got an A, B, A B, C, B or something like that, or what would be a stock radio format? How do you make something like that that people would expect to hear interesting and alive? What tricks do you use?

Speaker 4 (06:43):

Totally. Okay, so sure, it's verse, it's intro for four bars, verse pre-chorus, chorus. Like I said, get to the chorus in 45 seconds and you're rolling. I mean, I think there are pop parameters and that's what music is. It doesn't mean you can't deviate, but I think it's really always just about having something interesting happening all the time in this song. This is a terrible example in the pop world, but I always think about Sweet Child of Minds, the greatest intro of all time on the guitar with one of the most identifiable intros in the world.

Speaker 2 (07:15):

Give

Speaker 4 (07:16):

Me an intro. It's always about let's create an intro. It could be a vocal hook, it could be a musical hook, like a guitar thing, it could be a piano, keyboard, synth, whatever, something right out of the gate that's instantly grabbing a sample. Maybe you're sampling another song or something like that right away. Having something great is huge when you get into the verse. I think one of the things that as I've gotten to be a better writer is used to be more fluff in verses now it's like you got to get right into the story on what you're talking about and you got to dive in with an amazing melody. It's so incredibly competitive and tough to a lot of the stuff I do. I'll work with artists maybe half the time, but the other half is just writing four bigger and other artists and it's so incredibly competitive and tough to get songs cut by those artists these days because there's fewer songs than ever coming out and there's more people than ever doing it that you got to have amazing melody, amazing lyric right out of the gate hooks in the verse.

(08:14):

You get to the pre, the pre-course is the new chorus. It's got to be as catchy as a chorus and then when you get to the hook in the chorus, you got to have something that's absolutely unforgettable and that's tough. I look back on songs I was writing a few years ago, five years ago, eight years ago, and I'm getting better, but I keep getting better, but it's just gotten so much tougher to write a competitive great chorus. Everybody can write pretty well now and the stakes are so much higher, and again, it's so much harder to just write songs that'll get past everybody and make it through the gauntlet.

Speaker 3 (08:48):

So do you have any techniques or tricks or tendencies for say once you get past the intro verse one, pre-course one, chorus one, you're back to verse two, chorus two and all that to make the second round through more interesting than the first?

Speaker 4 (09:06):

Well, ironically, my first big cut was with SLO on the Twilight Eclipse soundtrack and we wrote one verse, one chorus and a bridge, and that's usually often even these days I'll only write one verse and one chorus and that's what we'll write and we'll send in to people and then usually just fly the first verse into the second one because it's tough enough to get a song cut. You don't want to like unquote waste time on the second verse or bridge until somebody's interested. And usually people know if they're interested by the time they've heard through a chorus or they'll keep listening. So we sent it in, I'll answer your question in a minute, and then two days later my publisher says, Hey, I'm sitting with SLO right now. We're cutting this song. Can you send me the instrumental far be it for me to bring up that we didn't write a second verse at that point as he, he's sitting with Cilo, I like, oh yeah, give us some time to work on the second verse and then two days later they forget about the song.

(09:58):

So we just sent it in. Anyway, that song came out with one verse flown to the second verse, same as the first, and we had a bridge. So actually ironically on that one, the way we differentiate it was musically once we got that one done real quick, but second verse, maybe it's at a musical element, maybe it's strip out a musical element. You might have a guitar driven first verse or something or piano, maybe you strip it in the first half of the second verse, you just go to maybe bass and drums or maybe it drops out for four bars or something like that. Certainly I think on the vocal side, a lot of times, I'll second verses where you start adding in harmonies, maybe you bring in an ad lib or two in the background and lyrically it's about pushing the story forward unless you're me and you only write one verse and it happens to get cut that way, in which case you just write one verse and it's so catchier the second time through it just becomes another hook. So I don't know if that's answering your question.

Speaker 2 (10:58):

That's something Chris, on a side tangent I've always loved about eighties pop songs. If you listen to Madonna get into the Groove or even early nineties, like Paul Abdul Cold Hearted, every fricking melody in the song is just this ridiculous hook. I mean the verse, the chorus, the pre-course, it doesn't matter. Every single one of those is identifiable and you can sing

Speaker 4 (11:18):

Totally, but that's what pop music is and I feel like it's even gotten more so where if you don't have a hook every four or five seconds in a song, people are changing the station and there's so many things to listen to these days that it's like, well, okay, great, I gave that song eight seconds, but it didn't grab me, so I'm out of here just

Speaker 2 (11:37):

Eight seconds.

Speaker 4 (11:38):

I mean, honestly, I even was going through when I was flying home the other day, I'm going through everything just listening to stuff. I give it an intro. It's like, oh, I'm not feeling that one. I mean crazy. I'll listen to 20 seconds and move on. I'm not even sure what I'm doing. What the heck? Why am I changing? Why don't I listen to more of this stuff? I think the fact that everybody's got every single song at their fingertips these days is that's what makes it so competitive and hard and that's why you got to have all these hooks and if there's not a vocal happen there, there's got to be a cool bleep or bloop or guitar line or I don't know what I, and that's why it's just gotten tougher and tougher to or write a song that people are going to connect with at least.

Speaker 2 (12:19):

Well, here's a good question then. What ways do you approach writing a good hook? What to you makes a good hook and what tricks do you use that will rely on, that can assist somebody in making one

Speaker 4 (12:30):

Does violating somebody's copyright count here?

Speaker 3 (12:34):

You're not the first person that we've interviewed this month who's kind of alluded to that.

Speaker 4 (12:40):

I mean, I would be lying if I didn't say that Several writing sessions start with some form of the unspoken version of who's copyright can we violate today? I mean, seriously, and I'm partially joking, but I mean sometimes you do it outright on purpose. You write a song and you say, Hey, we're going to sing the chorus the right round on this song and it's florid and that's a straight up one where you're actually giving credit, but people borrow from melodies all the time, okay, let's kind of get something in this land of this new Jason Derulo song, but let's twist it a little bit or do something a little different. I mean, that stuff happens. Of course, familiarity is super important in terms of trying to get songs past people. Usually the key is try to be as familiar as you can without actually violating a copyright.

(13:27):

But I mean, trick wise, I feel like the number one thing is I feel like having a title right out of the gate is probably the best thing. You're going to have the best song if you can start off with a great title or a great concept, but generally the title's got to be there too. I feel like if you try to just start singing melodies or playing something, you might get a great melody, which I think is easier to get. You might have a great musical thing again, which is easier to get, but you're going to have a song that's going to just kind of not be about anything. I feel like my publisher, Mike, Karen often says that if you have an eight hour writing session, instead of spending one hour on the title and concept and writing the song in seven, spend seven hours on the title and concept and then you'll be able to write the song in one and have a hit. And not many people really want to do that because the title sometimes is Everybody's got a pretty good title, but where's a special title? Where's one of those titles that really is going to grab you and you hear it and you go, oh, that's already a hit song. Even when you just hear the title. So when I started writing session, first question I throw out to people is anybody got any good titles? I have probably 2000 titles on my phone at any given time.

Speaker 2 (14:37):

That's amazing. Of

Speaker 4 (14:38):

Which I'm excited about. One or two maybe tops. I usually have to just start reading 'em off to people to see what grabs other people. I feel like it's just like anything you create or work on, you get lost. It's like you can't tell if it's good anymore when you lose perspective, but having a huge batch of titles is huge. And then sometimes I'll have a title kick it to somebody and they'll have a better twist on it, or it might've been a sort of a negative title that somebody can flip into a positive way and suddenly that's a fresh angle on it. To me that's huge though. If you can have a great title, you know what you're singing, what your song's going to be about, everything else is way easier to do after that. And like I said, not everybody does that approach, but to me, every song that I've done that way is generally, I mean, it's generally just going to be a stronger song.

(15:23):

Then other than that, it's repetition in space, in a pop song in country, they write these choruses that are 600 words long and you get to the title at the end like, man, give me five words in a title and repeat it four times. We're never getting back together or something. I mean, those titles work for days when you listen to it, it's one or two lines and you repeat it and that makes it catchier. It's easier to remember stuff with fewer. One of my phrases I like to use is less lyrics equal. It's more money, so

Speaker 2 (15:56):

That's great.

Speaker 4 (15:57):

The less lyrics you have, the easier it is to remember, the more catchy it is. So you put a catchy melody with handful of lyrics or a couple lines repeated a few times, that's how you get a hit song.

Speaker 2 (16:10):

Hey, get jiggy with it. Right,

Speaker 4 (16:12):

Exactly. That's what I'm saying. When they had get Jiggy with it, they're like, man, maybe we got this dope. Maybe they didn't even think of that that way, but it was, we got something, nah, nah, boom, get done, hit

Speaker 2 (16:26):

Yeah, write the check, right.

Speaker 4 (16:27):

Yeah, right. It's funny because some people think like, oh, it's easy to write a pop song. It's one stupid line repeated five times or four times, but coming up with those lines that are magical with the melody that's really catchy and putting it all together is I think where the money's made, which goes back to the spent seven hours on the concept and title and then you can write the song in one hour.

Speaker 2 (16:48):

I've argued for years that writing a pop hit is way harder than writing the most technical ridiculous song. I mean, unless you're composing an entire symphony orchestra, something ridiculous, but I'm not talking about coming from a metal background. Everybody's like, if it's not in 20 time signatures and you don't string together 80 riffs that don't go together. To me that stuff, it was way easier to write a dream feeder song than it is to write a number one because even if you write a number one, you still have to market it, get it out there, brand it, image it, get it through the gatekeepers, and getting 20 people to agree on a song, being a hit in an office is an incredible task. Sometimes.

Speaker 3 (17:24):

Well in metal you can use technicality as a crutch.

Speaker 2 (17:28):

Absolutely,

Speaker 3 (17:28):

Yeah,

Speaker 4 (17:28):

You're right. I think one of the things you kind of alluded to is putting 20 random guitar lines together. I have 20 riffs, I have 20 titles everywhere. Everybody's got that. The really hard part is making it cohesive and clear and concise the whole way. That's one of the pitfalls of songwriting is you've got this song and then it's like, wait, the lyric, it's either got too much information, it goes in a different direction, it gets weird. There's all sorts of different things and it's like, man, writing a really clear, concise song that you can summarize in one sentence is super, super hard.

Speaker 2 (18:03):

Absolutely.

Speaker 4 (18:04):

Yeah. I mean people all the time go, oh man, you just write those disposable pop songs. What do you guys just sit down for a couple hours and write two or three? It's like, no, we sit around for eight hours, try to write a verse in chorus and then come back to it a few days later. I mean, sometimes they come quickly or sometimes it takes longer. But yeah, I mean I feel like it's harder to beat within all the parameters of what pop music needs to be and then like you said, running it through the gauntlet of you first got to get it through your publisher or somebody then a manager, then an a and r person, then they have to play for their boss, they have to play it for their boss's boss. Then it's going to go to the artist. Artist is probably not going to like it. Label's going to have to, I mean every cut that you get is a miracle these days. It's seemingly impossible every time you go, how am I going to actually get this thing cut? And then when it comes out you're like, man, the amount of stars that had to align for this thing to happen is absolutely crazy.

Speaker 2 (18:55):

It makes you wonder some of the songs that are amazing that just never see the light of day. I mean, I think of some of the artists that I've worked with over my career and sometimes I'll write a really cool song with a band and then the band will break up in a week and they'll just never get off the ground or they'll kick out the singer and it's just kind of depressing in a way. Totally.

Speaker 4 (19:14):

I mean, your catalog, I'm sure it has a hundred songs that are great that never will be heard, and my catalog, I mean I go through it, I'm like, man, there's a lot of seeming hit songs in here and people are just never going to hear it, which is part of why I keep my art aside alive a little bit. Like, okay, you know what? There's still opportunities to put this out myself and get songs out there or that's where one of the other things I've done is trying to write more directly with artists. When you do that, there's a better chance it's going to come out than when it's through a label where you have to go through all the hoops and sometimes it's just like you feel like as a songwriter man, I wrote 150 songs this year and four of 'em came out okay, and you're like, it's a good percentage.

Speaker 2 (19:58):

When you were working with mechanical kids back in the day, it's a band that I had developed and gotten signed and worked with, and then they went to a bunch of songwriters and that's how I actually met Chris. This is many years ago, what, 2008 or oh nine? Did you ever hear the song Love Thriller? Yes,

Speaker 4 (20:14):

I did. I didn't work on that one, but I heard it. That

Speaker 2 (20:15):

Song to me was always like, I couldn't believe the label, didn't think that was a single. I'm like, that's a hit. I mean, that song is amazing. The hook on that is retarded. When I play that for people, I have it on my hard drive. I love the song so much. They're like, oh my god, that song's ridiculous. Why is that not released? And that just being a perfect case in Point example of an amazing song that unfortunately no one will ever hear unless somebody picks it up and cuts it.

Speaker 4 (20:39):

Sure. I mean even the whole album that Sean did and stuff I worked on with him, stuff you worked on with him, it's just sitting, I mean, it's sitting on my hard drive, your hard drive, and there was a lot of great music. No one will ever hear those songs and there's some incredible songs. Totally. And it's like, man, and that's where some days when I think about that, I go, man, it's a little depressing if you start to think about it too much. Boy, I wrote literally this year I'm probably at 120 songs or something and I've had maybe six come out or five or six, I mean, which that's a pretty good percentage, six cuts in a year, major label. It's pretty solid. I'm feeling good about it, but I'm like the other, maybe half of those a hundred and whatever are mediocre or whatever, not good enough.

Speaker 3 (21:25):

So let's talk about the amount of songs that you write in order to get to good ones or ones that other people think are good. So you're saying that it's basically 1% of your songs or less that actually make it through? I

Speaker 4 (21:41):

Mean, it's totally possible that I just suck too. So 1% maybe not quite right. I would say it's like five or less though. 5% or less is probably about the number. I also sometimes just make beats and tracks, so that's a different world. I mean it's the same world, but it's also a little bit different. I might write 70 80 songs and then do 30, 40 tracks or something like that. Tracks have a little bit different kind of life. You can write to 'em multiple times and all that, but at the end of the day, percentage wise, yeah, I mean 5% would be a great year. I think my publisher just sent around an email. He said a girl wrote 250 songs last year and he said, of the first 50, none of 'em were good. The second 52 or three were good. Third 54, 5, next 50. Anyway, I think he said he placed 13 over 250 songs. So what is it? What is that? That's

Speaker 3 (22:34):

Great.

Speaker 4 (22:34):

So that's maybe like 3% or something. Yeah,

Speaker 3 (22:36):

That's under 5%.

Speaker 4 (22:38):

Yeah, I mean, here's the deal. If any of those become a hit and look, it's a numbers game, but you could place one song in your entire life and if it's a number one Jason Derulo Hit or Adele's new single or something like that, you just made 7 million bucks and you can retire. So there's something to be said for some people say, listen, if you had one cut a year and it's a top 10 song or something like that, who cares? That's great. As a songwriter, you might want to kill yourself the other 364 days that you wrote songs that didn't get placed, but you could also have a hundred cuts that make these days, if you have an album cut and you're just a writer and not a producer, you're not making a whole lot of money. So you might get a hundred cuts and you make 50 bucks a cut because the album sold 10,000 copies.

Speaker 3 (23:25):

So how often do you write? Almost every day.

Speaker 2 (23:29):

I was going to ask that too, because he's got a really cool routine that at least Sean Beau, who's a mutual friend of ours, told me that, Chris, you write a song every day, right?

Speaker 4 (23:37):

Yeah, I'm writing every day, so like I said, it could be making tracks. Actually, I felt like I was writing too many songs and not making enough tracks recently. So I've been shifting the focus, but I mean, I work five and a half, six days a week and I'm either in a writing session with other people finishing since I produce as well. Some days are like, I'll give you an average week. It might be right on Monday song from scratch, Tuesday, build the track, mix it, put it together, finish it Wednesday, make a beat Thursday, write a song with somebody to that beat, and then Friday maybe go have a session with an artist or something like that and just write a rough one, and then maybe the work tape's good enough to play for people or something like that. So because I produce and do a lot of production as well, maybe an extra day I'm still working, but I'm maybe finishing the song I wrote from the day before.

Speaker 3 (24:32):

So with the amount of work that you put out, I'm sure you're not always feeling a hundred percent inspired. How do you get around writer's block or how do you just keep it fresh all the time or do you just write no matter what, because it's a discipline and a habit and some days are good and some are whatever.

Speaker 4 (24:51):

I think it is partially what you just said, it's just showing up every day. Like I said, I think a couple of the things that are super helpful are having a thousand or 2000 titles in a Evernote that I can look at at any given point. I also just have a list of inspiring songs. Every time I hear something I'm like, man, that's kind of cool. Maybe if I took the drums from that song, like that drum groove and put it to a ukulele, not a ukulele, whatever, over that, or I'll have a list or I also have a huge library of songs to sample. It could be like, man, I love this little horn part In the beginning it's an intro and it's naked. There's nothing around it, so I can chop it, take that horn thing, chop up the horns. I have even a list of songs to flip, which means, for example, flow Rider right Round is a good example.

(25:39):

They took the chorus a right round of the eighties song and rewrote a song around that, so it's like, oh, that's a cool line. Pit Bull does that. Pit Bull and Flow Rider do that stuff all the time. I feel like I have so much stuff and I'm so kind of backlogged at any given point on songs I have to finish and things like that. That writer's block doesn't really necessarily happen. I have so many different ideas, but it's really just about finding what idea do I want to work on today? Some of it's just by necessity like, man, I got to get this song to the label. They need to get it. I need to get it to this artist. I got to get it to my co-writers. I got a session today, and when you're working with people between two or three people in any given room, somebody's got an idea for something.

(26:20):

The other side of this too is there's specific needs. My publisher will say, Hey, Darulo is looking for new songs in the lane of Michael Jackson off the Wall or something like that. So we go, okay, let's pull that up as inspiration. Start playing guitar on that lane. There's projects like that. There's film and TV projects that are same kind of things like we need a song that's maybe about that. I mean, maybe that's demystifying music or maybe making it a little bit more of a job in some respects. You don't just always walk in and go, oh, what am I feeling today and what am I going to write?

Speaker 3 (26:53):

No, that's good. I don't think people should be that way. I think that if you're only waiting for that kind of feeling, you're going to write very infrequently and your overall level will be a lot lower than it would've been if you just got in there every day and figured out a way to get yourself inspired.

Speaker 4 (27:12):

Totally. You just get yourself inspired and just keep doing it and yeah, I don't, writer Block doesn't even really feel like it's a thing to me. I have so many, and I'm not saying they're all good ideas. In fact, most of 'em are probably bad, but I've got ideas for the next two or three years to keep me busy, even if I didn't come up with any new ones. It's just about finding, I mean, the key is sifting through 'em and going, oh, that's maybe a really cool one or a fresh one, or Wow, that suddenly works. I have all these titles and ideas that suddenly works for some certain artist and it's about marrying, okay, that artist and that title, that could be great, and then let's bring in the other, the person to write that song with. That's another key component, our kind of putting together the sessions with the right people and the right chemistry.

Speaker 2 (27:58):

How do you keep up with the incredibly fast moving market? For example, when I'm producing a record or mixing or whatever, I get so engrossed in working, the last thing I want to do is come home and listen to music after grinding for 14 hours every day, and it's just like sometimes a news style comes in and you have to learn how to do it and you have to get it and understand it and be able to write it or else you're going to miss out on that entire client base. How do you keep up with that stuff? Is there a trick to it?

Speaker 4 (28:23):

Yeah, I mean I think it's, you're right, you work in music all day and then it's like, man, do I really want to go listen to the top 40 music right now or totally. I think part of it is when you're working with other people, you're constantly learning tricks from people and just from being in the room with 'em, half of who I am is the sum of everybody else that I'm working with. They'll play you songs. Maybe you go to a r meetings and the a r will go, Hey, we're looking for stuff for Jordan Fisher on Hollywood right now, and here's three of the new songs you just cut, so they'll play stuff so you can hear that. I usually run tape in the meetings. I don't tell anybody, oh, darn podcast. I'm in trouble now, but it's hearing what labels, having them play you songs.

(29:05):

My publisher's great, he sends around a monthly letter that's basically like, Hey, this is what we're listening to and there's like seven people at the company, eight people, here's what we're listening to, this is what we think is cool. These are what we think are going to be the next trends, and a r people, that's their job is to figure out what the next trend's going to be. Sign the next thing, and you have songwriters working on the stuff that, that's one of the things writers are always chasing. They hear what's on the radio today and they go, oh, let's write that. It's like, no, that's done. That stuff was written a year ago and coming out today, you need to be in right now. We got to be writing for 2017 almost. It's almost a joke. ANRs are like, yeah, we're looking for the 2020 version of TLC's Waterfalls or something.

(29:47):

I don't know. But the key is you got to stay ahead of the curve on all this stuff and figure out what's coming next. So again, my publishers, they help tell us what they think is cool, and I think that's part of it. I listen to Spotify, make sure I keep my ear on the viral 50 and various playlists. I go to Hype Machine probably almost every day and just kind of see what's on the top of that chart. Yeah, I mean what you're bringing up is huge. I do that stuff every day and I feel like I need to spend usually between 30 and 60 minutes almost a day, be it. It could be just while I'm working out listening to this stuff, it could be just kind of while I'm setting up in the studio for the day or driving or something, but I pull up Hype Machine and Spotify and go through stuff my publisher sends and constantly where are things at and what do I need to be doing?

(30:34):

You have to stay. The trends in pop music change, I mean, it's stupid how frequently they change, and if you locked yourself in a cave for six months and didn't listen to anything, you'd come out with stuff that's like, oh, it's so dated sounding just six months later. I mean, I listened to some of the 20 11, 12 pop, like the Kesha and some of that stuff. It's like, man, it sounds really dated. I mean, I loved it Katy Perry. Even that Teenage Dream albums was one of my favorites when it came out. It sounds kind of dated now and it's just you got to stay on top of the curve, so by doing the things I just mentioned, that's a big part of it. It

Speaker 2 (31:10):

Really does blow my mind how fast music moves. I'll give you an example. I was at the bar the other day and I've been working on a lot of metal and a lot of alternative rock and keeping up with that, and I kind of not listened to anything EDM or hip hop recently, and I couldn't believe how much in just six months of being away from that, it's like everybody was doing a saxophone breakdown and there's trends like Deep House, or not Deep House, but Festival House and now it's just moved and I know that's already dated, so it's like it's moved so quick. It just blows my mind sometimes.

Speaker 4 (31:41):

Sure. I mean, yeah, now it's Tropical House and then I just heard, well, now Beaver's album, tropical House East, so that's going to be done in three months, and so it's the next thing mean, so it's like you either got to stay, there's two approaches. One is you got to kind of predict what's going to be next or the alternative, which is kind of what I try to do. Like a guy that came from a rock background who loves pop music. I can hang with the urban dudes, but I'm not a super urban guy. I'm just a white guy from the suburbs of Chicago, so my goal is maybe I can do something that's different. It's not really anything. It's not really a trend, it's just sort of cool. I mean, that's my goal. I'm sure I fail a lot of the time, but hopefully occasionally I'll nail it. Just bringing together my various influences and it's not a trend that's happened. It's not necessarily the next trend, but it's just cool and maybe that's where you can create a trend that's obviously really hard to do, but sometimes that's the lane I'll try to shoot for personally. Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 3 (32:43):

Last question, do you place any importance on music theory or do you do everything by ear?

Speaker 4 (32:50):

I took piano lessons as a kid. I took guitar lessons so I can read notes a little bit. I don't really do it ever. I pretty much am. I think it's probably by ear mostly, but I know enough theory to get by and I think it's, I can do a seventh court or something like that. It's one of those things where these days, I think it goes either way. If you're trained, great. If you're not, who cares? It doesn't matter. I don't think there's tons of people I know where literally I feel like these days, if you're able to play the computer, the computer's an instrument these days. Just even with chopping up samples, you can find MIDI packs and just popping the midi into some sound that you think is cool, program your drums, chop it up either way. If you have the skill, great. I think it's helpful. If you don't, great. I think you can make it work either way, and

Speaker 3 (33:37):

I completely agree. Piano roll ninjas.

Speaker 4 (33:40):

Well, I always tell, see people that are amazing piano players, a friend of mine comes over all the time. The guy can play piano up and down, flight of the Bumblebee, backwards, whatever. He's awesome, and then when I'm having him play stuff, I'm like, cool, can you just add that piano thing and quarters just like Pong, PP, I mean it's one note, it's one finger. Most of the stuff is just, I mean, it's four chords and the truth, that's what it is, and you're not doing anything. That's crazy. I mean, when was the last time a pop song had something that was like, holy cow, technical, somebody. Nobody can ever play that. It's not in the technicality. It's in the creativity and how you put it together, I think.

Speaker 3 (34:17):

Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (34:17):

Well, thank you so much Chris for coming on. It was a great conversation and thanks for sharing all of that great knowledge with us. Thanks for having me. Hopefully some of that's useful.

Speaker 3 (34:26):

I believe it will be.

Speaker 2 (34:27):

Yes, definitely. It was really awesome talking to you, and thank you again for taking the time to come in and chat with us. Cool, man. Thanks for having me, and yeah, anytime, guys. The

Speaker 1 (34:36):

Unstoppable Recording Machine podcast is brought to you by Ivans Guitars and Basses. Ivans strives to make high quality cutting edge musical instruments that any musician can afford and enjoy. visit.com for more info to ask us questions, make suggestions and interact. Visit urm Academy podcast and.