MIKE MOWERY: The 3 Pillars of Success, Mastering Social Media, Why You Don’t Need a Manager

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast, brought to you by Focus, right supplying hardware and software products used by professional and amateur musicians, which enables the high quality production of music Focus. Right? Sound is everything. And now your host, Joey Sturgis. Joel Wanasek, and

Speaker 2 (00:00:22):

Eyal Levi. Hey guys, welcome to another episode of Joey Sturgis Forum podcast. Today with us we have Mike Mowery, who is a awesome manager that I've worked with a lot, and president and managing partner of Outer Loop Management. How you doing, Mike?

Speaker 3 (00:00:38):

I'm doing well, thanks. How about yourself?

Speaker 2 (00:00:39):

Pretty good. So I think a lot of our audience right now is very interested in learning more about music business and probably more so band business, because I think it's kind of hard for a lot of people to think of the concept of playing music as a business, at least in the sense that you would think of it, I would imagine.

Speaker 3 (00:01:01):

Yeah, I would agree.

Speaker 2 (00:01:04):

So can you walk us through a little bit about how the climate has changed in the last couple of years and what are some of the things that people should be thinking about if they want to succeed as a band in 2016?

Speaker 3 (00:01:18):

Yeah, I mean, it's a pretty big question. I mean, it's a widespread, yeah, I mean, I guess just an issue. The industry has changed and it will continue to change, and to me, change is inevitable and sometimes it's exciting and sometimes it's frustrating, but I think the bigger part of any time within the music business and you kind of hear these cliche things of, oh, well, it's got to start with great songs and yada, yada, yada. But really there's some fundamental things that artists should be focused on no matter what is happening within the business. And so music is a part of it. And of course I can sit here and say, oh, well, we need great songs. And that's why people like you sort of exist. One of the many reasons why people like you exist, great producers are they can help craft better songs presumably. But then there's the whole other part, there's the branding component and that I think has become more important than ever. And I'll touch back on that in a second. And then the third thing is really understanding the band being a business from the outset. And I think that's really the hardest part for a lot of artists to wrap their head around, because if you're starting in a band and you're in your teens or maybe your early twenties, presumably you're doing the music because you want to do something alternate to being in business.

(00:02:55):

And so one of my biggest challenges with young bands and even bands that aren't so young is really trying to help them understand the way that a business works. And that can just be such,

Speaker 4 (00:03:11):

How different is that then? 10 years ago, 10 years ago, did you find that you had to educate bands as to how business works quite as much?

Speaker 3 (00:03:22):

Well, what's different is I know so much more now of how it works, and so I don't know if it has been that much different other than to me, I understand the fundamental importance of it now more so than I did back then. So it's hard to answer that one.

Speaker 2 (00:03:44):

Yeah. But I think one of the strengths of someone in your position is that you can give that wisdom to people who are younger who would have no way of seeing that you have the experience. So going back to 0.2 that you talked about with branding, can you elaborate a little on that?

Speaker 3 (00:04:04):

Yeah, so as a guy who really enjoys working with developing artists, and again, this is stuff that I've had to learn or really hone my skills on and understand its importance, I always like to bring bands in and I've got this cool whiteboard wall in the conference room in my office and I bring 'em in and kind of got the big screen on one end and this whiteboard wall, and I get in there all professor and start to, and of course nobody really realizes that it's a whiteboard wall, they think it's just a white wall. And I start writing on it and they look at me like I'm really deranged, but they've

Speaker 4 (00:04:47):

Never seen one before.

Speaker 3 (00:04:50):

But I start to talk about the branding component and one of the things that I like to say is name the worst band name possible. And actually all three of you should do this for me. Tell me what you think is the worst band name of all time

Speaker 4 (00:05:05):

Of a big band

Speaker 3 (00:05:06):

Doesn't matter. But yeah, big is more helpful than some completely obscure band. Okay, corn, corn, corn

Speaker 2 (00:05:12):

Is terrible.

Speaker 3 (00:05:13):

Agree.

Speaker 5 (00:05:14):

Corn's a great name. It's got that reverse R. And no one had that. I mean, come on, you want to talk about branding? They hit that shit out of the park. Okay,

Speaker 2 (00:05:21):

How about limp biscuit? It's pretty bad. Ding,

Speaker 3 (00:05:24):

Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. That is always my example because it to me is the worst name ever, but it became a household name. And why is that? It's because before everybody was equal on the internet. The industry at large with radio and majors and everything could have bands grow. So by the time you really thought about the name, it was already ingrained in your head as just these two words that went along with this awesome song nookie. And so you never really thought about it and now 10 years, 15 years later, we can go back and look and say, God, that was a fucking really, really, really bad name today. If you tried to launch a brand new band with the name Limp Bizkit, you get like these nuts. Yeah, you would get, and these nuts is a perfect example to me.

Speaker 5 (00:06:22):

Hey, that's a great record.

Speaker 3 (00:06:24):

It is a great record. But to me, and they do very well in Australia and they do very well in Europe, and some of the bands that I have managed are really good friends with those dudes and it's nothing against them, but to me it was never really going to work here because I do, I think that the name was really going to hold them back. Now there's exceptions to every rule in everything that I talk about, and this is what I always say to young bands and say to everybody in the industry, I can sit here and speak about all these things that I think are helpful and you can of course go find an exception.

(00:07:01):

But to me it's really, really, really super important to have a great name, a great logo, great photos, great video, all of that stuff out of the gates, and that's where it's really changed. All that stuff was always important, but there was other ways to kind of get a leg up before you really had to focus on some of that stuff. And to me, that is the component of branding and likeness. That really is a skillset that bands need to have in place when everybody's in that same equal space of the internet trying to compete. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:07:44):

Now I've seen some bands who get, they totally get point number two, we're calling point number two branding or whatever. So I've seen people, they have nice visuals, their logo looks good, they got good pictures, but then there's something else. Maybe the music's not very good, maybe they're not very organized and their page hasn't had any activity for three weeks or something like that. So I think it's important to state that branding's not everything, but it's definitely a very important part of the whole machine. Can you speak to a little bit more about the actual importance of social networking for bands nowadays? Because I also see that there's a lot of people that are using social networking but not quite in the right way, and I think it would be nice to hear your perspective on that.

Speaker 3 (00:08:35):

Yeah, I'm actually interested to hear how you think people aren't using it in the right way, but I'll

Speaker 4 (00:08:42):

Spamming, spamming, carpet bombing, just ridiculous getting messages in my private mailbox every day from people that I don't know saying, Hey, I see that you like this band, which I don't like. Why don't you check out my friend's band? It's right up your alley. And then getting the same exact message, but from a different person the next day, stuff like that.

Speaker 5 (00:09:08):

My favorite one is when you get the private message on Facebook and it's like, Hey, thanks for the ad. I see you're a producer, check out my band. We're really awesome. We're really broke though. We're from fill in the blank and it's really a struggle here, but if you want to come work with us for free, it would be

Speaker 4 (00:09:26):

Like what? Another good one is you have been added to an event 5,000 miles away, right?

Speaker 2 (00:09:32):

Yeah. I think the biggest thing I see a lot of bands doing wrong, and this is kind of coming from an insider point of view because my fiance is in a band assigned band and it's that people just don't use social networking sites the way they're intended to be used. Facebook is intended to have something where your audience can engage with whatever you are posting on there. It's not about just informing people, it's about getting them to interact with the post to like it and to comment on it and to talk about it and to share it. And if you're just posting your show dates and just telling people, Hey, go watch this. Hey, go listen to this. Hey, go look at that. That's not very engaging. That doesn't give the audience a chance to give back.

Speaker 4 (00:10:16):

There already is an infrastructure for posting your show dates. It's called events. And I've read that it's supposed to be something like one out of every five posts should be promotional. And so the rest of the time you should just have good content up there that gets your audience happy to read your shit. Otherwise they're not going to read your shit, they're not going to click on anything. You're going to follow to the bottom of Facebook's algorithm and they'll never see your stuff. Yeah,

Speaker 3 (00:10:44):

I mean, I think you guys touch on all fantastic points and one of the things that we've done here at the management company for years is develop strategies for and with our artists based on what we've seen work for the artists that we manage, based on what we've observed from other artists, based on the research that we've done. But one of the things that I find myself saying time and again, and this is usually when I'm back at my whiteboard in my office, I say this, I say, great content done consistently over time. And that applies so much to the social networks because content can come in so many different ways. And so obviously you've got music as a form of content, you've got the visual part that goes with it, video lyric, video visualizer, as I like to call some sort of artwork manipulation.

(00:11:49):

That doesn't include a lyric video because sometime in the last few years, lyric videos became passe amongst certain people and then proper music videos. But then you've got photos, obviously you do have your shows, but more importantly, and Joey, a number of the artists that you work with or have worked with, were on the forefront of this taking somebody along with you to capture what you're doing at a show. Because if you're playing a show in front of anywhere from 20 people to 20,000 people, if you've got a talented photographer or videographer there to capture that, and you can then plug that into your promotion system as well, it makes everybody feel as if, oh my God, I'm missing out on something by not having seen this band. Look at this. It was such a great show and so to me, all these different types of content and then you're right, plugging them into the right social network at the right time, and not only time of day, which obviously there's analytics on engagement times, but also just the time of when you're doing things and not, like you guys said, not just running down the same street of, okay, I'm just promoting my new single, my new single, my new single, my new single.

(00:13:14):

Go buy it, go buy it, go buy it, go buy it. It's like come up with different ways. Do a play through video that shows what's happening with your new single and don't just beat somebody over the head to say go buy it. Just present all of the stuff that you're doing in as many different unique ways as you can. And of course this is way easier said than done. I mean, this is where artists, managers along with labels, along with producers, along with videographers, the whole team that goes into an established artist, that's the type of stuff that really ends up setting them apart. But I've watched plenty of young developing bands start to implement these strategies on their own because each member in the band has a certain area of expertise of content creation or a good friend who can help drive the van or help sell merch, also takes photographs or does video or you name it. And so to me it's really, again, it's this great content done consistently over time, plugged into the right networks that helps artists start to matriculate up the chain.

Speaker 4 (00:14:29):

Matriculate. I like that word. Yeah, that's great. Yeah, that's a good one. Word of the day.

Speaker 3 (00:14:35):

Basically, this is an SAT, this is an SAT study course. Professor

Speaker 4 (00:14:39):

Maori,

Speaker 2 (00:14:40):

Thank you.

Speaker 3 (00:14:41):

Hashtag

Speaker 5 (00:14:42):

Matriculated.

Speaker 2 (00:14:44):

Now, I think there's a number of people listening to this going, really, really? Do I need to worry about engagement times? And I think absolutely, absolutely, because you can do this macro stuff and that's going to be a good start, but it's only going to go so far before you need to get a little micro and actually play to your audience, so to speak, with social networking. But let's sidestep some of that.

Speaker 4 (00:15:05):

Wait real quick, before you sidestep, let me just say something about people who don't want to engage with the micro and the macro stuff you have to do with Facebook.

Speaker 2 (00:15:14):

Absolutely.

Speaker 4 (00:15:15):

I see all the time that people are bitching about Facebook's reachability rules and

Speaker 2 (00:15:21):

How

Speaker 4 (00:15:22):

That's all changed and how nobody sees my posts anymore, blah, blah, blah. At the same time, they bitch about having to do the work to actually find out how to go about working Facebook. And the beautiful thing about Facebook is that it tells you how to work, it gives you videos, it gives you written out articles, it shows you if you follow these steps and do this and work your content like this, it's designed to get you a higher likability score and more people will see your content. If people would take the time to do that, they wouldn't hate Facebook so much. I know everyone I know who takes the time to learn how it all works thinks that Facebook is great. Do

Speaker 5 (00:16:04):

You know what the solution for that problem is? Ale?

Speaker 4 (00:16:06):

What's that?

Speaker 5 (00:16:07):

McDonald's is hiring.

Speaker 4 (00:16:09):

I love that one. They can matriculate me some french fries

Speaker 3 (00:16:14):

And Joey again, before we go, to me, there's got to be a balance. I mean, if you're just going to focus on micro all day, you're missing the point. I mean the point, again, you go back to being in a band and being in a band is supposed to be fun. It's supposed to be the time of your life, especially when you're starting out and you're developing. And yes, there are things that you should learn and you should know, but don't miss the fact that you should be having an experience and a fantastic time with hopefully some of your best friends.

Speaker 2 (00:16:46):

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 5 (00:16:47):

That's a huge takeaway.

Speaker 2 (00:16:49):

I was going to say, just to wrap up Facebook, because I wanted to touch a little more on the thing that you were saying, Al, a lot of people think that Facebook is maybe operated like a tyrant or something because people hate the way that they have to pay to get their stuff seen, but what they don't realize is that's the beautiful thing that makes Facebook work because if it was like MySpace where no one had to pay for things to be seen, you would end up with that. What was it? It was like the bulletins in your inbox or something like that. Whereas basically just junk mail,

Speaker 4 (00:17:23):

It'd be impossible.

Speaker 2 (00:17:24):

That's what keeps the riffraff out of Facebook is the people that are really serious and taking their business serious, you're going to see their stuff because they're going to be boosting their posts and they're going to be targeting the right audience. And if it wasn't that way and if there wasn't a whole system based around doing that, Facebook would die because it would just be junk mail.

Speaker 4 (00:17:45):

Yeah. Facebook is designed to give you a customized experience based on what you like to click on. So to guys and bands out there who are not having their posts clicked on, what that means is that people don't like what you're posting, so get that through your fucking heads and learn how to work Facebook.

Speaker 3 (00:18:04):

My Lord, is this is some tough love coming at you gentlemen.

Speaker 4 (00:18:10):

Is there anything I said that's not true?

Speaker 3 (00:18:12):

Well, I mean I think to me a huge part of it is also like, okay, let's have the real conversation about the other networks as well, which of course frustrates the hell out of me. The last thing that I want to be doing or having my staff or the interns here is have to focus on 10 different types of social networking. But Facebook, there's studies every day about how many people are actually either abandoning the platform or just not paying as much attention as they once did. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:18:42):

Instagram is a big one now for brands.

Speaker 3 (00:18:44):

Massive, massively. And that's where it comes back to, I alluded to it a little bit, it's that photographs and the video content that artists really utilize. I mean Joey probably are friends with him or at least know him quite well, Adam l mcas, with all of the stuff that he did with the artists that he's associated himself with and helped grow. I mean, there's no secret that he helped the profile of so many of those artists grow faster than they would've had they not taken somebody out to capture these great photos and videos of their shows. As I tell artists all the time, it's like, look, if there's 20 people at your show and you can make somebody, if you can capture the moment, not saying fake it and make it seem like there's 500 people there, but if you can capture what you are there to convey to those 20 people and you can then go post it to, if you've got 2000 followers, you've increased your reach by

Speaker 2 (00:19:56):

And interest level too, right

Speaker 3 (00:19:58):

By, I was going to do the math in my head and say some sort of percentage, but since it's Friday, I quit doing math.

Speaker 2 (00:20:05):

I think there's also a lot of people who will look at a band like Atilla and go, oh, that band's a joke, and there's no way anything they're doing should be taken seriously. But if you actually look at what they're doing and look at what Franz is doing, it's working and you shouldn't ignore that. And I'm pretty sure you can go to their Instagram right now and probably scroll down like a page and you'll see the last tour they were on, they're doing exactly what you said, they have 15 second videos from every show date, the shows what the show was like, the energy in the room. And it even worked on me. I saw a video and I was like, damn, I need to go out to a show, man, that looks fun. Lifestyle bands.

Speaker 4 (00:20:46):

Yeah, I think people confuse what the branding and message of the band is with the seriousness of the business, which I think actually means that the band did a really good job.

Speaker 2 (00:20:57):

Yeah, I would agree with that. So let's say your social networking chops are up to snuff and everything's good there. What are some other things that bands should be focusing on aside from content? Because I know there's a lot of people out there who are lost. They're like, how do I get a manager? How do I get a booking agent? How do I get signed? And I know these are all super huge long freeways to go down, but what's some of the core fundamentals you see time and time again, people missing?

Speaker 3 (00:21:28):

I mean, I think it's not worrying so much about, oh, how do I get this manager to take me on or this booking agent to take me on? And that's the last piece of the puzzle that I'm missing. I mean, inevitably, those of us that are good at what we do, we do make a difference, but there's a time that we can actually make that difference. And it's once you've gone out and really started to do some of these things for yourself, it's playing shows consistently. All of us that are on this call imagining have either been in bands or at least have been around bands long enough to know that how do you get better at playing live? Well, yeah, you got to practice for one, but then you got to go out and actually do it because we can practice in our practice space or in our respective homes as many times as we want, but there's nothing that teaches you how to engage a crowd other than being in front of a crowd.

Speaker 4 (00:22:25):

I got to echo that when my band was touring, we were just awful until we were maybe 100 shows down in our first few tours. It wasn't until around a hundred shows that pretty back to back that we started to feel what it took to own a room or to not be afraid of the headliner or what to do if we're going on first and the crowd is kind of dead, or what if we feel like shit or what, if any of those things. None of that used to come naturally to us, and it did take about a hundred shows. So yeah, you are absolutely correct.

Speaker 5 (00:23:01):

Mike, what's your take on bands playing? For example, you're like a local band, right? Saturating out of market. So the band that plays the same city three times a week, because for example, you're just advocating playing a ton of shows. I've heard a lot of managers advocate, well, you should never play in the same market more than once a quarter and you should blah blah, blah, blah. So I'm just curious what your take is.

Speaker 3 (00:23:21):

Yeah, I mean that's always so challenging and I think it depends on the market and depends on so many things. I mean, there is, and I even say this about sign bands, it's at some point doing anything, well, up to a point I should say, doing anything is better than doing nothing. And so lemme explain that a little bit. I've worked with artists that are extremely heavy. I've worked with artists that aren't as heavy, but let's say they all fall under the Greater Warp tour umbrella and on Warp Tour, the reason that that stuff works is there's a large enough audience that pulls from everything. But when you start to take it down into these smaller sort of beginning level tours, a poper Punkier band might not want to tour with a heavier screamo or even death core or metal core band, but inevitably the way that you build a fan base is you go out and have to actually tour and then you implement some of these other things that we're talking about.

(00:24:22):

You capture the photos, you capture the video, you create content. When you're out on the road, it looks like you're doing stuff, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. In that case, if you took these two bands or let's say there's four bands and you're the oddball out doing something in that case is far better than sitting at home. You're right. If you're a pop punk band and you're playing with three metal bands, it's probably not going to work long term. But inevitably getting out there, and maybe from an industry perspective, other managers might be coming. There's managers like myself, most of the managers that do what I do, we work with a wide array of types of bands, agents, you name it. And so at some point, once you grow, grow, grow, grow, grow, then you have to really start to think about, okay, how do we position ourselves to make sure that we're with the right types of artists? How do we not oversaturate every single market?

Speaker 2 (00:25:20):

So the band who is playing those shows every week, and the drummer listens to this episode and comes back and says, Hey guys, we need to stop oversaturating our market. We should stop playing shows every week. Not necessarily the best idea for a band who has 20 fans.

Speaker 4 (00:25:36):

Let me give you guys a little story from before my band was signed. I thought that playing as many shows as possible was the best idea possible. And I booked us three shows in Atlanta one weekend, man, oh man, oh man, that went over so bad. I got the owners of the three clubs calling me on a conference call threatening to blacklist my band from the city of Atlanta if we ever tried to pull some shit like that again.

Speaker 3 (00:26:05):

Well, of course. And there's things like that that do, yeah, I mean the listeners of your podcast don't know. They don't know that promoters of any type don't want you announced multiple times in the same market at the same time. Because inevitably, if somebody's going to see if they have a choice of where to see you, they're going to be able to make that choice. If they only have one place to see you at any given time and they want to see you, they have to pick that one bit. But yeah, I mean, Joey, it is interesting of course if you've got 20 fans, you don't really necessarily need to worry about oversaturation of the market,

Speaker 2 (00:26:45):

But I know there's somebody who is.

Speaker 3 (00:26:48):

But I do think it is helpful to think of a strategy and probably when you're in a local band or developing artist, you're not thinking any further ahead than your next show or next two shows. But it could be really helpful to map out a six month to year long plan and say, okay, and start to set yourself some goals. And that just starts to help goals. And at that level, it can be really challenging to even set goals because you might inevitably not know what to set and you might not make 'em, if you do set 'em by

Speaker 4 (00:27:26):

This time next year, sell 2 million records.

Speaker 3 (00:27:29):

Well, exactly. That goes back to smart goals and they've got to be attainable. But what is helpful is to have something to reflect on and look at and say, okay, well this is what we've tried and hey, we played three shows in the last 12 months. Let's try to up that and do six shows in the next 12 months. But one big thing other than just playing is part of that playing is networking. And the networking part of being in a band is one of the biggest things. And that comes down even at the biggest level of artists that I work with. When we go to put a tour together, who are the first five bands that they named that they want to go out with? It's their friends. And obviously if their friends are in bands that

Speaker 4 (00:28:27):

That's

Speaker 2 (00:28:27):

Not

Speaker 4 (00:28:27):

Necessarily the best. I know guys in really big bands, well, who were really big, maybe they're broken up at this point, but I know guys who have been in bands that have done quite a lot of stuff and have got in Slayer tours and Slipknot tours based off of the strength of the guy in the band who networked, who also happened to be the worst musician in the band. And they would leave him in the band because he's the guy who gets Carrie King on the phone and he's the guy who gets the invite on the tour end of story. So worst musician, doesn't matter. He could network

Speaker 3 (00:29:04):

Well, totally. And just take it back to the really small developmental level, it's like, okay, that's how you make those connections with the other artists. If you're in Detroit and you're competing with the other, I mean there's some value to healthy competition, but there's also some strength in numbers. If you and one or two other bands are kind of competing with one another, might it make sense for you three to team up and think about how you can support one another and one of you take show A, one of you take show B, one of you take show C, and you all drive your friends to go see each respective band. And then six months down the line, you've got this nice healthy scene that's developing as opposed to you're just trying to pick the whole thing apart. And again, some of this stuff is really rudimentary and may not be applicable to anyone specific given scene, but it's stuff to just sort of think about. It's like, okay, how can I position myself to have others within the area be looking out for me?

Speaker 4 (00:30:16):

So since we're talking about networking real quick, let's shift to producers, not band members, because we talk to a lot of producers via this podcast. A lot of the guys who listen to this are both band members and upcoming production guys, but how do engineer, producer guys go about networking? Do you have any thoughts about that? Because it's a little bit different. It's a little bit harder for them, I think.

Speaker 3 (00:30:45):

Well, I want to be clear because I can think of this question in two ways. One is how can you interact with each other? I don't know if that's what you're asking or more. So

Speaker 4 (00:30:57):

No more network for the purpose of getting clients, however, networking amongst each other can help you get clients.

Speaker 3 (00:31:06):

I mean, again, I think it's you do everything in your power to talk to people. And whether that's in person as old people like me still enjoy doing or whether it's online, it's all incredibly helpful. I'm a big consumer of podcasts, and I was listening to Jamie Jostas podcast this week yesterday that had Zeus on there. It was really interesting to hear him say He still makes the rounds. He goes out and he sees bands and he keeps in touch with them, and he goes an event. He's on a level where he knows managers and label a and r guys and all of that, but he doesn't take his reputation or any of that for granted. He's constantly and consistently going out and making people aware of his existence. And so take it to somebody who's developing. It's just like being in a band. When we say play shows, I mean, how did you guys get better at your craft

Speaker 2 (00:32:10):

Record bands?

Speaker 3 (00:32:11):

Exactly. You did it.

(00:32:13):

And if you worried about 50 bucks here or there, us people who are older and have worried about 50 bucks in our past can tell you that it's 50 bucks and it's not that big a deal in the grand scheme of life. And if you can record a band for free and you got to wait a table at night or work another job, it's well worth doing in order to get that experience. And then if you're good at it, eventually, as I know you guys all have been, that's how people start to then come to you as opposed to you having to go reach out to them as much.

Speaker 2 (00:32:50):

I think we're touching on sort of a macro business topic here, and I want to see if you agree. I see a lot of people who they'll be like, okay, I want to be a big producer, but if I'm going to be a big awesome and great producer, I'm going to need to know how to produce really well. So I'm going to sit here in my bedroom and watch videos and never actually produce. And I think a lot of the things that we do, because a little bit entrepreneurs ourselves and we like to create businesses and companies, one of the things that we always pride ourselves on, I think is to say, just do it. Make the mistakes and learn from them and get out there and do it. Do you see that being a way to go about approaching music as well? Because I think there's probably bands who are probably sitting there going, oh, we need really great songs. We shouldn't play any shows until we get great songs. Or We have great songs, but we're not very good lives, so let's practice in our garage a whole bunch before we go out. And you should do some of that, but well,

Speaker 3 (00:33:54):

You should do a lot of it. I mean, you should do a lot of it, but at some point you got to get out there and actually do it. You're correct. And

Speaker 4 (00:34:01):

Okay, jump into the deep end

Speaker 3 (00:34:03):

Even. Yeah, and it's take a chance and take a chance on yourself. And do understand that all of us on this call have failed multiple times and have learned things the hardest way of hardest ways. And even still in the privileged positions that we sit in based on the hard work that we've put in, we're still failing occasionally and still learning lessons every single day. And it's about being mature enough to understand that that's just part of the overall process. You're exactly right. I mean, it's finding the courage to overcome that fear to go out there and play the show or go out there and do a really, really, really horrible mix of your friend's song and have him come back and tell you that it's God awful. But if you just change these 17 things, it might start to work. And then you work on those 17 things and the next time you do one, only 15 things suck. And eventually by doing it, you hone that craft. And in the case of great producers, there's a little bit of an X factor, right? I mean, can't just great artists. I think persistence and sweat is 90% of it, but there's that 10% kind of X factor that those of you on the call have had that allows you to really elevate to kind of that top tier.

Speaker 4 (00:35:35):

But that X factor isn't the stuff that people should be worried about because either you've got it or you don't.

Speaker 3 (00:35:41):

Well, correct. And in some senses you can hone it along the way.

Speaker 4 (00:35:46):

Yeah,

Speaker 3 (00:35:47):

For sure. But

Speaker 4 (00:35:49):

It's got to be there to begin with though.

Speaker 3 (00:35:50):

Yes, you are correct.

Speaker 4 (00:35:52):

Okay.

Speaker 2 (00:35:52):

So let's move into some of the audience comments and questions. This is going to actually illustrate a lot of the points that we talked about. Nice. So the first one, which is just, it's great, our user Mark, he's asking, what do you think about bands buying ads on social media, like sponsored posts? Does it work for bands or is it money down the drain? And why?

Speaker 3 (00:36:17):

I mean, I guess the question is what are you promoting? There is a strategy to it for sure, and like Aile said, there's information that exists that on Facebook that can tell you the proper ways or maybe not proper, but give you a strategic advantage to figuring out how to boost those posts.

Speaker 4 (00:36:41):

Yeah, they lay it right out for you. If people just go to Facebook for business, they've got tutorials and everything, it couldn't be any easier.

Speaker 3 (00:36:49):

But it is one of those things. Just having a product and making more people aware of it isn't necessarily going to convert into sales.

Speaker 2 (00:37:03):

No, that's just the first step.

Speaker 3 (00:37:04):

I

Speaker 2 (00:37:04):

Think this is a perfect example of people not being educated about how Facebook works and what it is and how it's powerful and what it can do for you. I think a lot of people will see the media examples that say, or maybe not even media, maybe it's just really honestly stupidity, people sharing things that aren't facts saying, well, Facebook, it's a waste of money to be promoting your posts and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's really sad to see that. And I think to answer this guy's question, I think it can work for you. You just have to know how your audience is going to respond to what it is that you're promoting and how to get them engaged in that. And also

Speaker 4 (00:37:41):

To know what the point of the post is, because Mike just said it's not necessarily going to lead to a conversion. I just want to take that a step further and say that Facebook isn't designed to sell stuff. It's designed to be a social network, and you are allowed to use it to spread awareness about your products and your services. So if you make a boosted post and do a really good job with it, writing things up, and you do in fact get people's awareness, it's done its job, but then it's on to you to engage them further and get the sale. But that's not Facebook's job. And if you confuse the job of Facebook with the job of selling, you're going to be very disappointed. Well,

Speaker 3 (00:38:23):

Let me give a real, as we're talking through this, I think of a number of the artists that I work with who are most successful, and you would think with the level of success that they've had, they would sit back and just either allow us to handle these sponsored type posts or whatever it may be. But so many of them, they'll put up, whether it's tour dates with VIP tickets, whether they're selling a new single, whether we're selling a new T-shirt, and these guys will go in and like you said, il, they will engage with the fans that are on there and essentially convert sales. I mean, I hate to say it like that because this is where the business part of it does take over, and there's some psychology and doing that go in, make the person feel engaged. And so if you're in a developing band, you got to employ that same strategy. If somebody likes the post, go in and start talking to 'em like, Hey, what did you like about this? Did you like the music? Did you like the branding? Did you like this? Or, where are you from? Or any of that stuff. Just start to develop a relationship with them and continue to do so throughout the length of your career.

Speaker 4 (00:39:37):

Yeah, absolutely. Just making people aware that you have something is not enough, even though it's clearly the first step. If they're not aware, they're not going to, they can't buy an album or go to a show they're not aware of,

Speaker 3 (00:39:51):

Right?

Speaker 4 (00:39:53):

I mean, it sounds dumb to say that, but just to be clear, that's the main goal for Facebook is to get people aware of what's going on. And to do that, you have to be non annoying and engaging, but then to even get them to the next step to do what Mike said, and your content has to be on point, and all these other things have to be done correctly to get them to that next step where they go to your site and actually go through with paying for something. So you don't want to jump the gun and try to get them to pay for something on Facebook when you're just spamming them with some show event that they're not even sure they want to go to, and they probably haven't even heard of you.

Speaker 2 (00:40:30):

So user, Jonathan has a question, what can be the benefits of a producer having a manager? I've heard many things of it being a bad thing, but then again, I guess it's who you work with, Joey,

Speaker 3 (00:40:42):

Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.

Speaker 2 (00:40:46):

Now, I've talked about this a few times on the show, and I've told people I had a manager and he was everything for my career, but then there was a point when he was not, and that's not a bad thing. We mutually parted ways in all of that. But let's talk about someone who's never had a manager or someone who doesn't realize if they need one.

Speaker 4 (00:41:08):

And lemme just say that this kid has asked me this question about three different times over the past year.

Speaker 3 (00:41:14):

You must not have answered it sufficiently.

Speaker 4 (00:41:16):

I'm not giving him the answer he wants, which is that he's not ready for one.

Speaker 3 (00:41:21):

I mean, listen, I can say this as somebody who manages producers and someone who interacts with producers and their managers, I mean, I'm in a very privileged position because most of the producers who have managers, I can go directly to them that said, I respect the professional protocol of only going to them to talk about the things that we should talk about. And that is the creativity, the artist at hand, all of that. When it comes to the business, I turn to the manager. And so it can be very hard. This is sometimes why a band can have a manager too. It's somebody to sort of step in and deal with the harder things. If you're a producer who is ready and has reached a certain level and can command a certain amount of money, but aren't comfortable telling your friends that, or whatever else that is sort of the manager's job, they're there to look after your best interests, and they also can and should be helping you get opportunities.

(00:42:28):

And that's one of the things to me, and this can be for artists or producers, is your manager is somebody that's there to help you long term and if the relationship is right. And so I've dealt with this with, again, both bands, and I haven't dealt with it as much on the producer side, but I call it the last Shot syndrome. And so it goes down to by the last shot, I mean the last shot in a basketball game. And so I say, if you've got a team, and this is more so with a band, but again, apply to a producer on the band instance, you got manager, booking agent, label band, a number of other people. And let's say the label gets you on a tour. And I've had this example very early on in my career. The label got an artist on the tour, and the head of the label then turned to me and said, I got this tour, you get the next one in almost like a, I'm doing your job for you kind kind of way.

(00:43:29):

And I had to really think about it. And I went home and I thought about it, and I said, if I'm on the Chicago Bulls and circa whenever Michael Jordan was the fucking badass that he was, let's say you're on LeBron James team, and that's the superstar that's designed to take that last shot. But let's say he's triple teamed, triple guarded, and he passes the ball to the other dude who takes that last shot, there's nothing wrong. You guys won the game. The whole idea is that the entire team, the goal is to win the game. And in a band's case and a producer's case, it's to develop the career or get the job. And so it doesn't really matter who landed it. And so the specific would be, let's say I managed Joey Sturgis and Joey Sturgis says to me, damn, Mike, I've gotten my last three projects.

(00:44:17):

What are you doing for me? And I turn around to Joey and say, well, thankfully you've got these great relationships and these three projects have allowed me to then go speak to these bigger a and r guys at these bigger labels or whatever. And I'm working those relationships for you. So in six months time, when this big record comes down the pipeline, I can deliver that for you and and simultaneously look after it. So I'm negotiating the right fee for you. I'm negotiating hopefully the right points for you, if that's something, or the percentage splits on your publishing or whatever it may be.

Speaker 4 (00:45:01):

But that's so far beyond the realm that a regional or local level producer lives in.

Speaker 3 (00:45:08):

You're correct. So yeah, I mean, go back to the exact wording of the original question for me.

Speaker 2 (00:45:15):

Well, he said that he's heard it being a bad thing, and he's wondering what the benefits of a producer having a manager is. I would say a lot of producers probably don't know how to run an LLC for starters. A lot of producers probably don't separate business finances and personal finances. These are all things that I think a manager would step in and probably help with and would be valuable for someone who, if you're up to the level, maybe you're starting to make 2030 KA year, or maybe you're even up to 60 KA year, you should really think about getting a manager, I think.

Speaker 4 (00:45:48):

Yeah. But I think that it can be a bad thing when you're below that level, because you might have some unrealistic expectations. First of all, though, managers you'll be able to attract when you're that low on the totem pole are going to be that low on the totem pole as well. And then at that point, what's the point? Why are you feeding another mouth that can't do anything for you? The idea with the manager is also to have someone who's got access to places you don't have access to, relationships you don't have. And if you're only making 15 grand a year or something off your recording, who do you think you're going to attract as a manager? So what's the real reason to do it? So to me, I think it's just bad because until you're bigger, you're not going to attract good people. If you don't attract good people, you're just spinning your wheels. Yeah,

Speaker 5 (00:46:37):

I think it's important to note that as a producer, you should really focus on building your brand and being the absolute best you can be, and then you'll attract the kind of people that you need to work with to help you take yourself to the next level.

Speaker 3 (00:46:49):

Yeah, I mean, I think these are fantastic points, and I was, you're right. Probably digging in a little on a deeper level. No,

Speaker 4 (00:46:58):

It's great. No, but that's great to explain why it matters down the road. People should know why it is a good thing eventually, but as much as they should know why it's not the most helpful thing initially.

Speaker 3 (00:47:10):

Completely. And lastly, I think all I can say to that is the better, and I think you guys have said this already, but I'm just going to emphasize it. It's that in any case, band producer, you name it, if you've built something where there's real managers or agents or labels coming to you, that's such a better position to be in than if you're trying to go and knock down those people's doors to get them to pay attention to you. And that's a fine line because at some point you'll have done enough work and want people to be aware of you. But really it's about, like you guys said, it's doing that work, building the business on your own to a point where a manager can come in and actually make a difference for you, and then everybody wins.

Speaker 2 (00:48:04):

Absolutely. So I think this might be the last question, unless anyone else has anything, but let me read this. This is from user Jonathan. He says, I emailed a few label management firms a while ago with a mini bio and a portfolio about possibly having the opportunity to work with artists they work with, but with a slew of emails they get, I can completely understand how mine probably went unnoticed. What's the best option I have to get in touch with industry professionals?

Speaker 3 (00:48:32):

Man, that's a Pandora's box of,

Speaker 4 (00:48:35):

And let me interrupt you before you answer this, lemme just say that somebody who you don't know asked me to give out your contact info yesterday, and I didn't. Of course, but that's not a way to do it. Don't just randomly give people's contact info out or ask for it.

Speaker 3 (00:48:56):

It's crazy, this fine line, and I am the exception to the rule. I'm the underdog who wants everyone to have a shot. That's who I've been, and that's how I've prided myself, which is different than a lot of other people. And it's burned me from time to time, but it's just the nature of the type of person who I am. It is. It's hard. I mean, I think it's funny. I took a trip with my dad and my brother and a couple of our younger nieces and nephews, and it was a Friday afternoon and we were all hanging out at a restaurant and it was probably four or five in the afternoon, and I was on my phone and everybody was kind of giving me a little bit of shit for still being on my phone. And I broke it down that I probably get on any given day somewhere between 200 and 500 emails, and you should have just watched their jaws drop to the floor because here's younger people, and if you're in a band, your inbox is probably a note from your mom saying like, Hey, I hope it's from your buddy.

(00:50:04):

It's from the porn site that you signed up for. Whatever it is. That's the hater and the other local banks. Exactly. And that's no disrespect. I mean, believe me, there was a time when I had none of that, and sometimes I wish for those more simple times. But I think the point is people are busy, and you're right. You got to find a way to stand out again, just as you, and again, the question's a little unclear to me as to how he wants to help the person asking the question. He says, you reached out to label management to help their artists. Is that what the question was?

Speaker 5 (00:50:42):

He wants label work as a producer whenever his

Speaker 3 (00:50:46):

Services, right? Right.

Speaker 5 (00:50:47):

Basically, give me one of your artists to mix, blah, blah, blah, blah. I can do it better than the guys you hire.

Speaker 3 (00:50:51):

Yeah, and you're right. That stuff's going to totally go. What I'm finding, and actually would be curious to hear your guys' perspective on this, one of the things that I've found is that so many artists as they come up, they already kind of have a producer buddy in mind that they've worked with or whatever, and that's the guy that gets that record until they've sort of, I don't know, decide to try something new. We see that on the producer side of management. We'll go out and we asked labels asked this and asked that, and they're like, cool, this band we just signed, they made their last record that we loved with Producer X, and that's who the band wants to go with for this record. And so it almost goes back to how do you go find those young bands in your scene, hone your skills just as someone like Joey did? Obviously you took these artists, you made the name for yourself, and then the work started coming to you.

Speaker 2 (00:51:57):

Yeah, I focused on two things. One was get in good with the bands themselves because you want to be in a position where people like you and they want to be your friend, and then they will want to work with you. But it's not just that. The other thing was just do a fucking good job. Just do good work. And then people will be attracted to that. That's what they want, is they want a good job done on their music. And if you do that and then you're also a cool guy or you're at least friendly, you'll go pretty far. It's not about how many emails can I send every night? How many contacts can I find on the internet? How many management websites do I know about? Do you know this guy's email address? Not about any of that. I don't think.

Speaker 3 (00:52:45):

I would agree. I mean, it's almost like you're searching for a needle in a haystack. Your better opportunity is doing a great job with a small band that may or may not have a manager. And then that person, and this has happened to me a number of times. I mean, the way that I got into producer management was I was driving certain artists to producers who I thought they were doing such a good job that I would then circle back and bring other bands to them.

Speaker 2 (00:53:18):

And I bet it was people that you didn't necessarily heard from before, right? Correct.

Speaker 3 (00:53:23):

Yeah. It was almost always an artist that I found or liked or came to me said, oh, wow, who made this? Oh, it was Nick Sampson. Holy crap. This is great. I've got

Speaker 2 (00:53:37):

Speaks for itself.

Speaker 3 (00:53:38):

I've got this next young artist that I really like and want to develop. And a huge thing for me, I mean, this is where producers on the developing artist side are so valuable in this day and age when anybody can figure out how to make a semi-decent sounding song. When I find a band that I like in that capacity, I send it to one of you guys, you tried and true dudes that I know can make a song sound good no matter what. And you can tell me, the band has the chops. You can tell me, this kid can sing. You can tell me this guitar player can play. He didn't just write it all in Guitar Pro and can't do it. And then that's only one part of it. Can they play live all this stuff, yada, yada, yada. But yeah, it is. I mean, it's interesting. And as we talk to me, I'm almost overwhelmed in some senses. I'm like, shit, if I'm sitting here listening to this podcast, these guys are giving out all this pretty helpful information, but there's so much of it. But I think if you break it, we do this every

Speaker 4 (00:54:40):

Week, buddy.

Speaker 3 (00:54:42):

And if you break it down into the smaller steps of all these things, there's probably some kid that's listened to our answer that says, okay, well, how do I find that local band and that great local band that's going to put me on the map? And well, you might have to find 20 of 'em before the first one. Yeah,

Speaker 4 (00:55:04):

200 of

Speaker 3 (00:55:05):

'em. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 4 (00:55:06):

Well, that's the thing that all our producer guests who come on here answer when we ask them how they got started or all that. The one thing that we've got in common with everybody, whether it's Kurt Ballou or someone way from a different genre, different era or whatever, everybody started the exact same way. They had to somehow just do enough work and try hard enough until they found a band that worked, and that meant eating a lot of shit at the beginning.

Speaker 3 (00:55:37):

Yeah. I mean, another thing, and this applies to, I mean, shit, any of the stuff we're talking about within music or the bigger thing at large, and you guys, as entrepreneurs know this, you cannot speed up time. There is a time ticks off second by second by second. And again, there's exceptions to every rule. Some projects sort of land in your lap and they explode, but almost inevitably, everybody has to take the same amount of time. They got to do the stuff over that time consistently, and eventually it all sort of reached this critical mass, and then you finally got a single or an album or an EP that somebody fucking remotely gives a shit about.

Speaker 2 (00:56:22):

Yeah, you can only eat a pizza one slice at a time.

Speaker 3 (00:56:25):

That's true. But if you fold the slices in half, then you can eat 'em faster.

Speaker 5 (00:56:30):

Well, let me pile on that. I want to reiterate a point Mike made way earlier in the podcast is that I was always the very focused person when I played in the band, or even referring this to producing or whatever, you have to enjoy the damn process because being a very goal-oriented, driven person, when you're coming up, you're always focused on the big picture, and you're always miserable. So singularly focused on that one thing. When you finally get to it, you've already set 30 goals that are 20 times more lofty, and you don't care about the goal. So you have to sit down every day and ask yourself, why am I doing this and am I enjoying it? And how can I enjoy it more?

Speaker 2 (00:57:07):

It's not about the destination, it's about the journey. For sure.

Speaker 5 (00:57:09):

Yeah. It's important to note that. I feel like,

Speaker 3 (00:57:12):

Yeah, I mean, again, I think all of us and we now have the perspective that allow us to look back that way. One of the things I think helps me in what I do is even though I turn 42 tomorrow, happy

Speaker 4 (00:57:27):

Birthday.

Speaker 3 (00:57:28):

Thank you.

Speaker 4 (00:57:29):

Don't ask us to sing. We're terrible,

Speaker 3 (00:57:31):

Is that I really try to think back and put myself into the shoes of my artists. Even when my artists frustrate me to no end. They things too quickly. They're unreasonable. You name it. I think, okay, if I was 20, 21, 22, 23, how would I look at this? And even though when I was that age, we didn't have some of these same tools that people have now that I think actually make a lot of that even worse. I do try to put myself in that position and really think, alright, this is how and why you're making that decision. And you might not care about the fucking process right this second. You might not care about the journey. And all we can do is try to tell you that that is what it is. I don't know. End of rant.

Speaker 5 (00:58:16):

It's the hardest thing to do and the easiest thing to understand.

Speaker 4 (00:58:19):

You might not care about the journey, but you're going on it anyways, so learn to love it.

Speaker 5 (00:58:24):

Well

Speaker 4 (00:58:25):

Said. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (00:58:27):

Take pride in the very small accomplishments, and I'm guilty of this too. It's like I want to run to the top of the mountain, stand the top, and shout to the world that I'm at the top. But sometimes if it's a seven day fucking climb up Everest or however long that thing takes. A lot of people don't ever make it to base camp. So when you play your first show on a big bill, and even if you had to sell 50 tickets to do it, give yourselves a high five. You made it part of the way there, and that's a lot more than many, many other people will do. And then it's about focusing on that next step.

Speaker 2 (00:59:05):

Always

Speaker 4 (00:59:06):

The next step.

Speaker 2 (00:59:06):

Mike, thanks so much for being on the show. It's great to have you on here, and thanks for your insight and perspective on everything. Is there anything that you want to plug or talk about to close this off? Oh, you're too kind.

Speaker 3 (00:59:20):

I want to plug, of course, what we do, outer loop management and outer loop records. And one of the things that I launched just recently as a podcast network with a couple other people, Jabber Jaw Media, so you can check that [email protected]. There's a couple of great music focused podcasts, and it's been, again, part of my journey of this interesting music business and how it continues to evolve and develop. So thank you guys for having me. It's a pleasure. And we'll have to set one of these up where I just get to ask you guys a bunch of questions.

Speaker 2 (00:59:57):

Yes, let's do it. I'm down.

Speaker 3 (00:59:59):

Absolutely. Awesome. Alrighty.

Speaker 2 (01:00:01):

All right, thanks. Thanks guys.

Speaker 1 (01:00:01):

Thanks Mike. Thanks a lot, dude. The Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast is brought to you by Focus, right? Supplying hardware and software products used by professional and amateur musicians, which enables the high quality production of music Focus. Right? Sound is everything. Visit focus right.com for more information, to ask us questions, make suggestions and interact. Visit URM academy slash podcast and subscribe today.