DREW FULK: The Business of Co-Writing, Getting a Publishing Deal, and Writing Hit Songs

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast, brought to you by Focus, right supplying hardware and software products used by professional and amateur musicians, which enables the high quality production of music Focus, right? Sound is everything. And now your host, Joey Sturgis, Joel Wanasek, and Eyal Levi.

Speaker 2 (00:00:23):

Hey everyone. Welcome to the Joey Sturgis Forum podcast. This month is songwriters month, and I think there's a lot of eyeopening moments in here, especially liked the episode with Kane. I think that we're all a big fan of that episode. What do you guys think? I

Speaker 3 (00:00:37):

Like them all. I like the one with Sahaj too. I think it went pretty deep, but yeah, Kane's a smart, talented dude.

Speaker 4 (00:00:44):

This is definitely, I think my favorite month so far.

Speaker 2 (00:00:47):

Yeah, I was going to say, I actually pulled up that song that went pretty big by Sahaj in 2002. What's it called? Do

Speaker 4 (00:00:55):

You call my name? Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:00:55):

You call my name? Yeah.

Speaker 4 (00:00:58):

Do what you call my name as you corrected me.

Speaker 2 (00:01:01):

Yeah, I listened to that song a good probably 20, 30 times after we did that episode. Great song. And hopefully you guys are getting some stuff out of this. And if not, just let us know what you want to hear. We're definitely open to ideas and we always want to know what you guys are interested in. We will seek out the people, we'll find the information. If you've liked what you've heard so far, please let us know as well. You can always give us feedback on the Joy Forum Podcast Facebook group, and if you don't know about that, then you probably are sleeping.

Speaker 3 (00:01:36):

Yeah, it's called the Private Producers Club, and if you're hearing this episode, you should have access to it and if for some reason you don't have access to it, you never got the email or something weird like that, just go find the Private Producers Club and send a request to join and maybe that day or the next day, I'll get in touch with you and help you out.

Speaker 4 (00:01:57):

Another reminder, if you haven't logged in and checked out, nail the Mix, you might want to check your email.

Speaker 2 (00:02:03):

Yeah, some of you don't get the emails. There's all kinds of complications and variances that go into trying to email people these days because there's so many laws and spam and all this stuff. So we are working on ways to get the information to you, but if you did not get the email about our program called Nail the Mix, let us know in the groups on Facebook, email us at jsf [email protected]. We'll try and figure out a way to get you the information. Anyways. Great. Really cool opportunity for you to watch us mix a song and we want to mix songs with you and you can interact with us. So check that out. If you don't know what we're talking about, please go on Facebook or try and search for an email that you may have got from us. Also white List our email address. What's the email address that our newsletters come from?

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They come from [email protected].

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Add that to your email white list so that you're sure to get emails from us in the future and we can notify you at anything that we're doing.

Speaker 3 (00:03:03):

Yeah, the email that's coming from Nail the Mix says important in all capital letters in the subject line. If you've got an email from us that says important, you might want to read it.

Speaker 4 (00:03:13):

It's not like snail mail where if it says, do not discard you immediately, discard are important. It's completely unimportant. This is actually important and you probably want to read it.

Speaker 2 (00:03:22):

Yeah, you

Speaker 3 (00:03:23):

Might like it.

Speaker 2 (00:03:24):

So that out of the way, we have an interesting guest here with us today, and it's continuing on this tangent of songwriting. He's worked with some really cool artists, motionless and white Micah relocate upon a burning body to name a few. And I just want to say I've watched this guy go from audience to producer. I noticed that he was sort of in the scene and a part of the scene in terms of alternative music, but he kind of really recently in the last year or two, just really took a big step forward and started taking over

Speaker 3 (00:03:59):

As a writer too.

Speaker 2 (00:04:01):

And he's worked with some of my artists, which has been interesting and can't wait to talk to him.

Speaker 3 (00:04:07):

I've had that experience as well where he's had to save the day on some songs that were really not great that the artist came in with, and they just wanted a different perspective than what we could offer. And yeah, he did a great job.

Speaker 2 (00:04:26):

That's good to hear. So let's bring him on.

Speaker 3 (00:04:28):

Alright,

Speaker 2 (00:04:29):

Welcome to the show, drew. How you doing? I'm doing pretty well, man. How are you? I'm doing good. For the audience, this is Drew Fulk that we're talking about here. He's got a publishing deal with Robot of the Century, which is Roadrunner's Publishing Company. Worked with some of the artists that we mentioned earlier before Motionless and White Micah relocate upon a burning body. Also, I didn't know these Crown the Empire and we came as Romans. That's pretty interesting.

Speaker 5 (00:04:53):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:04:54):

Can you tell us a little bit more about those two situations? I've worked with both bands, so for me that's kind of doubly interesting.

Speaker 5 (00:05:01):

Yeah. Basically I was doing a record for this band called The White Noise on Fearless, and it was something that I had developed over the last few years. They were young guys from Texas Crown. The Empire's managers got involved with that band and they ended up liking the record that we made. They liked the songs that we had, and they just approached me to do a few test songs for Crown, which are the actual two that came out, prisoners of War and Cross Our Bones, which came out on the re-release of The Resistance, I think on Halloween actually. So that was how that relationship started was kind of just through a mutual artist that I'd worked with.

Speaker 2 (00:05:40):

I love that song, cross Our Bones. Thank

Speaker 5 (00:05:43):

You.

Speaker 2 (00:05:43):

So good. Now, I always find this pretty a cool fact because I know there's songs that I've worked on. For example, I might fly out to a band that's on tour or something and we work on a song, but the fans don't get to hear that song for a long time. Oh yeah. I find the lead times being interesting. So can we ask, how long ago was it when you actually were in the room with the band and co-writing that song?

Speaker 5 (00:06:11):

Let's see, that was Prisoners and Cross were in the same kind of area, and I think that was in March. So that one was actually more, it was honestly a quicker from Right to Release span. It was only maybe four or five months. And a lot of the songs I write or co-write usually end up having between nine to maybe even 13 months, sometimes even a year and a half before they ever get to come out.

Speaker 2 (00:06:38):

Yeah. Don't you find that kind of crazy? I mean, especially from a writer's point of view, I feel like if you're on the recording end of things, you're kind of at the last step of the process a little bit at least.

Speaker 5 (00:06:51):

But

Speaker 2 (00:06:51):

For the writers point of view, it's like you come in way early before they might even change the song some more before they actually put it down. So I find that interesting.

Speaker 5 (00:07:02):

Oh yeah. I mean, there's been times where I've worked with different artists. If they're in the early stages of making a record, they're not even exactly sure what they want the record to sound like, and it's more or less just trial and error. They might write with this person or that person and this person, and then they might strike a little bit of a chord. And then the whole record can be kind of based around these trial and error writing sessions. So there's sometimes a write for a record, it doesn't make the record. Then there's sometimes a right for the record and it ends up being the leading track. So it is a very interesting spot to basically become almost like a six member of a band for a few days.

Speaker 3 (00:07:40):

I've got a question for you.

(00:07:42):

In pop and stuff, pop country, basically every other style of music that relies on songs, it's kind of just an accepted thing that there's outside writers, but the heavier you go, the more it's looked down upon. I mean, it's been done forever. There's always been outside writers coming into work with heavy bands, but for some reason it's not really publicized too much because some of the fans, they just don't have a good opinion about that. How did you manage to break through that ice and become a pro writer with a publishing deal and that does this?

Speaker 5 (00:08:20):

It's really interesting. Where it really started was I was in a band and we never really did anything, but the first tour we did, I kind of just said, okay, this 100% is not what I want to do. I love just making the songs. And then as I started producing, I realized actually really just writing with the bands more than even engineering and mixing. So it was just a refinement process, and as artists let me get more hands in with them, I guess people just started to where the songs were going more than any other facet I was doing. So in the Heavy World, I've actually never really encountered too much of a taboo. And it's kind of weird. I think maybe if I had worked doing this eight to 10 years ago, maybe so. But I think that heavy music is becoming such a wider stream of the music genre that people don't really seem to care too much.

Speaker 3 (00:09:21):

That's cool. It definitely is a lot more pop now than it's been in a long time. I think.

Speaker 5 (00:09:26):

Yeah, I mean, I think the backlash comes from that fans of heavier music and fans of subculture music in general, they care so much more. If you like Justin Bieber, then you like the Justin Bieber song. You don't care if 18 people wrote it or one person wrote it. But when you're that young kid and you're listening to one of your favorite bands and they're probably a heavier band or a rock band and you get connected to it, you almost feel maybe kind of jipped if you find out someone else wrote it that wasn't that singer.

Speaker 3 (00:09:55):

Well, yeah, because young people identify with whatever music person that really speaks to them in a very personal way, and if it feels like it's, or if they know it's actually somebody else's words or something like that, they sometimes can feel like there's a loss of authenticity

Speaker 5 (00:10:16):

If you find the right artists. I think that Chris Motionless is one of the better examples I have is that everything I've done with him was not, it wasn't diluting his vision at all. It was just him saying, this is what I want to get across. Will you help me say it better? So no matter who helped him with the music or with the vocals or anything, it's all still from him. He just wants the best window for people to see it, and I think there's no problem in that.

Speaker 2 (00:10:42):

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I even think, and this is all personal taste and personal opinion, but when I look at the co-writing situations, I think making something that's really fun and pleasing to listen to is there's nothing wrong with doing that, especially in a group. You're creating art, but I also side with the people who are looking for that emotional connection to a specific artist or whatever it is. So there's two sides of it for sure, and I don't really lean one way or the other. I think both are very valid ways of creating art. But let's rewind a little bit and say, how did you actually even get started with songwriting?

Speaker 5 (00:11:25):

I think in the bands that I was in as a teenager, I was always pretty heavy in what I wanted to hear, or I didn't really want to be in the band. And I guess that's kind of a selfish thing, but I've always loved music so much that if I was in a band, I was going to lead the charge. So I probably wrote four or 500 terribly bad songs just growing up, and that's just the refinement process. And I think recording them, I didn't have money to pay someone else to record them. So that's how I started recording, was trying to record my own songs.

Speaker 3 (00:11:56):

So when you say four or 500 songs, you mean all the way done?

Speaker 2 (00:11:59):

Yeah,

Speaker 5 (00:12:00):

For

Speaker 3 (00:12:00):

Sure.

Speaker 2 (00:12:01):

I mean, this sounds like a common thread that we've heard with a lot of other writers saying, you've got to get through those 500 embarrassing, awkward, terrible moments to get to the good stuff.

Speaker 4 (00:12:14):

Yeah. A very famous producer friend of mine once was in my studio working on an artist with me, and he was telling me a story about some huge LA songwriting guy that wrote a bunch of seventies and eighties hits, and he said that out of his entire catalog, he had written about 3,500 songs over his career. And he says, out of those songs, five of them were mega hits and financed everything in his life and paid for 90% of all the expenses he's ever had. So there you go.

Speaker 5 (00:12:42):

Yeah, I mean, very, I think every day I walk in and I might write a shit song. I might write a great song, I might write half of a good song that turns into a shit song. Basically, it's such a refinement process that you never really know what you're going to get. You might have had a shit day that morning and it might make you write a great song, or you might've had a great morning, and that might make you write a shit song. So it's a really weird kind of emotional back and forth to try and figure out how to keep replicating better songs every time.

Speaker 2 (00:13:13):

Absolutely. Yeah. So you're in these bands, you're taking the lead and writing the songs. How does this go from writing songs for you to writing songs for other people? Where is the transition period?

Speaker 5 (00:13:26):

I think the transition was, I was in a really, really small band on a label called Tragic Hero, which I think you did that confide record for them, right?

Speaker 2 (00:13:34):

Yep,

Speaker 5 (00:13:35):

I did. And so I was in a band on Tragic Hero and I quit, and I had just known the owner, and he kind of gave me my first shot to work with a few other artists, and that's how it transitioned from being my own songs to helping other people.

Speaker 2 (00:13:50):

So yeah, that's another good point that we talk about on here, which is networking. You meet somebody who knows somebody who eventually gives you an opportunity, which is the same thing that happened to me. I worked with a band and then they got signed to Rise, and then I worked with another band on Rise, not because of Rise, but just because of the Dayton scene that gave me sort of two ends with Rise Records, and then I met Craig, and that opened the doors up for everything. So if you guys are listening to this, and hopefully you're noticing a pattern, a lot of these people drew and others are finding those windows and those foot in the door situations, and I hope that you're taking it seriously when those opportunities come into your door and into your lap, that you're taking advantage of the networking opportunities that you get with these.

Speaker 3 (00:14:39):

I find that most people who try hard enough can make those opportunities happen. It's more a matter of are you ready for them when they actually do? So, question, how does it go from that to getting with Robot of the Century?

Speaker 5 (00:14:54):

Okay. So from there, I did a few bands for Tragic Hero, and they kind of fizzled out, did this or that, A little bit of success here, a little bit of nothing there. And then it's actually, this is a complete happened Chance, I still is a great story to this day was I actually went on vacation with my now wife Morgan, and we met up with one of her friends and her friend had said, Hey, I think I'm going to bring my boyfriend with me, so it's a double date thing. I was like, okay, cool. I was like, I don't know this guy. He might be la, it might be cool. We'll just figure it out. So we sit down and I'm just kind of connecting with him just trying to talk, and I'm like, oh, what do you do? He's like, oh, I'm an a and r for a Roadrunner. And I was like, I just like, who was it? His name's Stefan Max. He's at Atlantic now.

Speaker 3 (00:15:41):

Oh, okay. I never met him. Yeah,

Speaker 5 (00:15:43):

He was the indie guy. He signed Young, the Giant over there, and then when Roadrunner kind of went into the Atlantic Group, he just kind of switched over and he just signed Vance Joy there that has that song Rept tied. So he's actually completely out of the rock world, which makes the story even crazier. But he and I had just become friends and I kept sending him stuff, and he kept basically just kind of kept tabs on me while I made records for regional bands in the southeast. And it kind of just developed from there. Once he thought that the head of the publishing company would be interested, he took it to 'em and it worked out.

Speaker 2 (00:16:18):

That's awesome, man. And sometimes being in the right place at the right time is everything, but you can't plan for that. But I do say though that you can prepare in ways that aren't always obvious, but just knowing how to work with people, how to talk to people, how to communicate, and knowing what you can do for others and what kind of value you can bring other people is kind of the, it's like the Dale Carnegie, how to Win Friends and Influence People Approach. Yeah,

Speaker 5 (00:16:52):

I love that book.

Speaker 2 (00:16:53):

It's classic for sure. Well,

Speaker 3 (00:16:54):

I mean, the thing is that, yeah, maybe there's the luck factor of having met the Roadrunner a and r guy that point in time. It is kind of random maybe, but at the same time, I mean, I don't know your girlfriend or his girlfriend or anything like that, but I'm guessing that it's not too much of a stretch that you ended up on vacation with a music industry person.

Speaker 5 (00:17:17):

No.

Speaker 3 (00:17:17):

And if you hadn't been ready with your songwriting skills, then that wouldn't have panned out into anything.

Speaker 5 (00:17:25):

And it wasn't anything that I tried to smother him with. I didn't bother. I didn't even really bother 'em about anything that I did because it doesn't really matter until they actually care. And so I think it was probably maybe six or eight months of just sending him an email here and there, just letting him know what I was up to. And that kind of just was the way it went. So I think one of the things I try to keep in mind whenever I'm interacting with someone I don't necessarily know very well is just try to not really even bother talking about yourself, because really they don't care. And so all you have to do is just do what you do best and then try to let it come out the best it can.

Speaker 2 (00:18:02):

I personally know that that works because the moment someone tries to open up the sales pitch on me, I tune out.

Speaker 5 (00:18:08):

Exactly.

Speaker 2 (00:18:09):

Yeah. It's like, dude, if I'm going to hire you, it's because I made that decision for myself or whatever it is. So actually a lot of the proteges and interns and stuff that I've had, it's been because for example, the most recent person that I hired, the reason why I hired him was he was helping me move just because he was a friend of a friend who lived in the area and on these van rides, we had these hour long van rides that we had to do. So we would pick up a bunch of heavy stuff, put it in the van, then jump in the van and drive for an hour. And during those hour rides, he would pull out his backpack, pull out a laptop, put on some headphones, and sit there and mess with music. And I couldn't help but overhear what he was doing, and I was like, dude, what is that? He's like, oh, it's just some stupid crap that I'm working on. And the fact that it sounded so awesome, but he referred to it as stupid crap was kind of like the kicker.

Speaker 5 (00:19:06):

Yeah. There's something about people that when they're working on something great and they don't necessarily know, it's great. It's a very intriguing thing, and you kind of want to sniff around.

Speaker 2 (00:19:15):

Exactly. So that's a big thing for me, and I think that's really good advice for anyone who's trying to come up in this industry is like, don't oversell yourself. It's not attractive.

Speaker 5 (00:19:26):

No, I'm working with an artist right now from Texas, and we're kind of going through the refinement process of what lane are they? Why do their songs matter? Why should people care over this band or that band? And I think those are all really important questions that every band in this world with it being so saturated with so many bands sounding similar, you really should sit down and think about, what am I saying that makes me different than all these other 80 bands that sound similar to me, and why should people care about me over them? And if you can't figure out a reason, then you shouldn't be out there playing until you have that answered.

Speaker 3 (00:20:02):

You should definitely have that answered in your own head. But I definitely think that going and telling people those reasons is probably a bad idea. I think if anyone listening has been to Nam or is planning on going to Nam, have you ever been Drew?

Speaker 5 (00:20:16):

No, I've never been. I just moved here about a year ago, so I should have gone, but I haven't yet.

Speaker 3 (00:20:21):

Okay. Well, at Nam, basically, there's a bunch of people who go there just to hand out business cards and try to get some sort of something going. And some of them are tougher to deal with than others, and they kind of become a laughing stock. Sometimes it gets funny. Some of the business cards are just ridiculous.

Speaker 2 (00:20:42):

Yeah, we say more than half of them are probably thrown away.

Speaker 3 (00:20:45):

I'd say more like 90% of them are thrown away

Speaker 4 (00:20:48):

Or kept in a collage for further entertainment at a lay date.

Speaker 3 (00:20:52):

Yeah, exactly. So just the people listening, if you ever end up going to Nam, pay attention to that and realize that when you try to sales pitch yourself too hard, that's what you look like. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (00:21:04):

I really think at least in this day and age, with the internet and social media and everything being so easy to get things out, that if you are able to create something that feels genuine and feels real, I think one of the better examples right now is I think that artist Paris on Rise, they feel very real because she has a specific thing and people came to them, they were kind of doing their own thing for a little while, and it grew organically, and now it's just growing and growing and growing, and it's doing really well. I have nothing to do with that. I just like the fact that she has something special to say. She's saying it in a different way, and they're doing their own thing, and you're watching how they're kind of just rising above all these other artists that are fighting for the same spotlight.

Speaker 2 (00:21:48):

And that band in particular deserves everything that's going on for them, so

Speaker 3 (00:21:54):

Congrats

Speaker 2 (00:21:54):

To them. For sure.

Speaker 3 (00:21:55):

So let's talk about actual music stuff. Cool. So do you play an instrument?

Speaker 5 (00:22:00):

I play guitar. I play bass by default of just trying to record some stuff and having sang so many songs for other people with co-writing, I'm slowly getting better at singing over the last few years.

Speaker 3 (00:22:13):

Is it crucial for you to be holding an instrument when you write, or can you do in your ad or

Speaker 5 (00:22:18):

I write most of my songs on my phone.

Speaker 3 (00:22:21):

Humming into it, or what do you mean?

Speaker 5 (00:22:22):

Yeah, it's usually the last 15 minutes before I fall asleep and the first 15 minutes when I wake up, I have my voice memos, and as I'm falling asleep, I'll think of something and I'll get up and go record it. And then two days ago, actually, I woke up and I had this concept and I recorded the hook within five minutes and then just went right back to bed and I just save it and then come in here and try to put it on the piano. That's

Speaker 4 (00:22:43):

Awesome. That's awesome. I have that same kind of experience sometimes where I get bursts of creativity as I'm dozing off and falling asleep. I think about a month ago I came up with some product name or some marketing text or something. Really good idea, just falling asleep, write it down, wake up, there it is, take it to work and show everybody. Everybody's like, dude. Yeah. And you're like, it just happens.

Speaker 2 (00:23:04):

There was a big, I can't remember who it was, maybe A-B-C-N-B-C, whatever, who tried to interview Michael Jackson. They asked him, they said, where do you find your vocal melodies? And his answer was, he literally looked at the guy and reached his arm into the air and made a grabbing sort of motion and then pulled it close to him. He said, I pulled him out of the air. And I thought that was really interesting. And I definitely connect with that because as a creative person, I think sometimes you do have to just wait for something to hit you and it just comes out of nowhere.

Speaker 3 (00:23:42):

Well, I think that the theory behind why lots of writers get their ideas right before they fall asleep or right when they wake up, I think that lots of the leading thinking on that is because your conscious mind isn't totally

Speaker 5 (00:23:55):

Exactly

Speaker 3 (00:23:56):

There to block you, so you're awake enough to realize that you, you've got an idea time to get it down, but you're not so awake that all the bullshit that all the scripts that run in your head all day long, that fuck with your creativity, those are switched off.

Speaker 4 (00:24:15):

Yeah, exactly. Kind of the answers are within you. You just have to let them come out.

Speaker 5 (00:24:20):

You almost just have to shut up mentally and just kind of let it come out. You end up having, I'm here every day, but when an artist comes in, they're looking at me for the same caliber song that is whatever song they came to me for. So I'm constantly having to try to figure out a way to be creative. And I think that's what goes back to the writing four or 500 songs and trying to, even if you're not necessarily feeling it that day, you still have this level that you try to achieve. And then from there, it's kind of like how you were feeling or what you thought of and this and that.

Speaker 3 (00:24:54):

Does your writing happen in multiple stages? Because I'm sure that the ideas that you jot down when you're half asleep aren't in final form or anything, or maybe they are, but do you have your creative phase and then your refinement phase, or how does that work? Yeah,

Speaker 5 (00:25:15):

I mean, usually if I record something on my phone, it's always going to be the hook. I'm never really thinking of verses because verses are much easier to segue through. So if I'm thinking of a hook and I have it down and I like it, I come in, then I'll usually try to think of, okay, what artist does this go for? And then I'll try to basically get a little bit of an instrumental just for the chorus, and then I'll try to throw down that vocal and then I'll listen to it and say, okay, does this melody feel strong enough? Do these lyrics feel strong enough? I'll bounce it out, I'll take it home. I'll think about it for a few days, and then I'll just kind of refine it from there. But a lot of the times, I'll start with a track too, especially with a band. A band, at least in the subculture of where we predominantly work, it's a lot of the times they have tracks and they need help on vocals. Very rarely do I get a metal band sending me a song with one acoustic and one vocal all the way through.

Speaker 3 (00:26:09):

Has that ever happened?

Speaker 2 (00:26:11):

No.

Speaker 5 (00:26:11):

I wish it would. It'd

Speaker 2 (00:26:12):

Be amazing. That's kind of where I left off. There's a lot of opportunity out there, and I turned down a lot of things because I know that it's not going to be that scenario that I want it to be, which isn't the best advice for anybody else, but for me, it's like I want to work with somebody who already has sort of the idea and just needs someone to further melt it into something amazing. I don't want to be on the ground floor, as they would call it, the cutting room floor. I don't want to be there stitching frames together as you would with a movie. That to me is way too deep. The lyricist hasn't even decided what he's trying to say yet and all this. It's like, I don't want to be there for that.

Speaker 5 (00:26:56):

Yeah, and it's different with every situation. I'm noticing too, is with motionless, he wanted every single music track done before he started panning a lyric. And that's just his thing. You can't say it's wrong or right, it's just how he feels. He likes to listen to the record as an instrumental before he writes a single lyric. And that's a rare case. I haven't worked with anyone else. It's like that. But for him, there's something about that. And then most other people just want to go song for song instrumental. Then we work on a vocal, then we go to another instrumental work on a vocal. So the thing that I think is important is that bands be willing to alter the instrumental to fit the vocal, because I think you're kind of selling yourself short if you try to squeeze a subpar vocal onto a great track.

Speaker 3 (00:27:47):

And lots of bands do that too.

Speaker 5 (00:27:49):

Yeah, it's slightly confusing because I'm sure we all love all the nuances of the record, but that 17-year-old kid probably is not paying attention to the bass guitar. They're probably listening to the singing. They're probably listening to what they're saying. So it's like you need to realize the priorities of what your audience is listening to.

Speaker 2 (00:28:09):

Yeah. We talk about this thing called the Pareto principles. It's the 80 20 rule. 20% of the effects is for 80% of the causes. So when you get somebody who comes across and is like, oh, I think we should tweak the snare needs 0.5, DB eight K brightness, it's like, dude, that doesn't make more people a warp tour singer chorus.

Speaker 4 (00:28:33):

I use this analogy all the time with mixing. When I send out a mix, I'm just like, all I care about on the first mix, I could give a shit. If you don't like the snare or if it's got to be a db, louder, hit play. Does it sound like a song yes or no? If the answer is yes, we can nitpick shit. If the answer is no, I did my job wrong and I need to reapproach how I mixing the song,

Speaker 5 (00:28:53):

You got to be able to feel something. I think that's one thing that gets lost is people are forgetting that without a song, having an emotion, whether it be pure anger or pure excitement or pure jealousy or pure something, the song sucks. Who cares what it sounds like if it doesn't sound like a song that means something. It's got to feel real.

Speaker 3 (00:29:10):

So how do you channel that when you're clocking in to write? I mean, this is a job for you, so I'm sure some days are great and some days are like, God, I'd rather be anywhere else, but you got to do it anyways. How do you channel those emotions on Commander at Will? It's

Speaker 5 (00:29:27):

Funny, I was reading the guy, his name is Sivan, if I'm correct. He writes with One Direction a lot, and he kind of was talking about that, and he said, I have to write with so many artists that I just started writing about my own life through all these different artists. So I kind of pulled from that. So it's kind of interesting, whether it be We Car or Crown or Motionless, a lot of stuff I write, it's just about whatever I was going through at that time. So it's kind of funny. I could almost take a bunch of my songs and put 'em in order, and it would be a little soundtrack of the last few years of my life with different artists singing it.

Speaker 3 (00:30:01):

That makes sense. So it's always personal to you.

Speaker 5 (00:30:03):

Yeah, exactly. I mean, I think that's the only way to pull the emotion out in terms of the lyric. But if it makes no sense with the vocalist, I can't write a song about my wife. If the singer doesn't even have a girlfriend or has nothing to attach it for

Speaker 3 (00:30:16):

Emotionless and white, yeah,

Speaker 5 (00:30:19):

He's not going to feel attached to it. He is not going to feel that. So you have to, almost every time I do a writing session, I try to go get coffee or brunch or breakfast with the predominant, whoever I'm working with just to learn about them. I want to know what makes them tick. I want to know what they're interested in. I want to know if they're religious or not. I want to know if they're this or that. All of those things really add into the song being special or not being special.

Speaker 3 (00:30:43):

That makes sense. Going a little bit more technical about stuff, one thing that we've noticed is, or that I've noticed as well with bands is a lot of them really suck with transitions and endings. They'll have a cool part and then another cool part, but getting from one cool part to the other doesn't make any sense. And lots of times they just don't know how to end a song, just fade it out or put the last chorus on the end because we couldn't think of a way to get out of the last course into an actual ending. Do you have any tips for people on how to get better at

Speaker 5 (00:31:20):

Those two things? I think transitions, it's funny you say, I think transitions are one of the hardest things to do and not be lame at. It's really easy just to stack a verse to a course, to whatever. But

Speaker 2 (00:31:31):

It's kind of like the unique part of the song though. Yeah, it really is. Let me just preface that with the fact that I'm glad that a lot of people suck at it, because if they didn't, I wouldn't really have a job.

Speaker 5 (00:31:42):

Yeah. It's funny, I've spent a bunch of time just listening to as many records as I can just to learn transitions more than anything. You can make your way through a verse. You can make your way through a chorus in terms of how you want it to come out and how you want it to come in. But man, if you can figure out how to do transitions, then people will notice. Let's just put it that way. People can really tell, they'll kind of lift their eyebrow. If I hear a song from a band I'm going to work with and the transitions are crazy, I'm like, shit, these people kind of know what they're doing, and I think that's cool.

Speaker 3 (00:32:11):

Yeah. Well, I mean, if you don't set up the chorus properly, then what's the point of everything else in the song?

Speaker 5 (00:32:17):

Exactly, yeah. And there was a song I was writing the other day, and if I'm writing for a single, then obviously I want the chorus to hit around 45 to 50. That's just me. But it was a song that we had set up, and it was a little bit more of a ballad, kind of like that, all the remain songs. What if I was nothing? And that's a slower tempo. And I realized when I hit the chorus at 45, there was not enough setup of the emotion, so I actually had to push the chorus back to around 1 0 5, 1 10, which to me is like, I'd never do that. I will never do that, but I did it with this song and it made the song that much better. So I think you have to set it up the right way for each part to feel impactful.

Speaker 3 (00:32:58):

Yeah, I honestly think that without tension and release, you don't have music. And so I feel like if the tension and release isn't set up properly, there's no point. So those rules about how long everything should go, they're good most of the time, but there's definitely going to be exceptions to every single one of those rules. And I think a good writer recognizes when those situations come up. I definitely have worked with some people who stick to those time limits religiously. They won't change it for anything, even if it hurts the song because they're afraid that the song won't get as big,

Speaker 2 (00:33:36):

It's easier to teach someone Two plus two always equals four because that's like a rule. It's like science, you can prove it. But with art, there's kind of all these great shape shifting, these gray areas where you can be like, well, it, it's really good to always have a chorus coming in at 45 seconds, but if the tempo is too slow, that might not actually make sense. So there's all these exceptions to the rules, and you have to realize that with art, everything is a little bit more

Speaker 5 (00:34:06):

Loose. And I think there was a record I did earlier this year, the chorus hit it 22 seconds, and it was the label's favorite track on the record. But then you listen to someone like Adele's who her new song, hello. The song is four minutes and 58 Seconds, and it crushes. It is the time stuff is just a rule of thumb. I don't think it's an iron grid bar.

Speaker 2 (00:34:29):

Yeah, her song as of today, it's like 380 million views on YouTube.

Speaker 3 (00:34:34):

Yeah. God, that's so ridiculous. Yeah. I feel like the people who stick to those rules religiously are the same types of people who look at a spec sheet for a piece of recording gear and think they know what it sounds like based on what's written down. Yeah, really bothers me. What about endings?

Speaker 5 (00:34:54):

Endings? I'm always a fan of, obviously I like to have three choruses if I'm doing a single. So I like to figure out something with the chorus. And always, one of my favorite things is I like to let the chorus music roll through and either do something like resing some lines from the first verse or resing something from the bridge so that you're not necessarily introducing something new, but you're singing a familiar vocal over a familiar progression. But together they're new. So it's kind of like tricking the listener into feeling like something's new, but really it's two pieces they've heard before just stacked together. Things like that. I'm always a fan of. I

Speaker 3 (00:35:38):

Love that. So using previous elements in a grand finale sort of way.

Speaker 5 (00:35:44):

Yeah, I love that. I think Breaking Benjamin's really good at, they'll just straight up write a new part after the last course. They'll just be like, yo, here's a new part. Song's over. Now.

Speaker 2 (00:35:54):

I love Breaking Benjamin for the record, and their newest record is so good. What a comeback record. Yeah, it was great. I love it.

Speaker 3 (00:36:02):

So how many seed ideas do you normally have before you're ready to call it a song? Or how many other way to say it is? How many unique ideas do you think it normally takes to have a good song

Speaker 5 (00:36:16):

Trying to figure out exactly what you're trying to get?

Speaker 3 (00:36:19):

Well, okay, so with extreme metal bands, sometimes they'll come in with what they call a song. I don't call it a song riff, I just call it a run on sentence where it's just like riff, riff, riff, riff, riff, riff, riff. And then you listen to some muse song that got really big, and there's literally three ideas in it that they just arrange in different ways and bring back and grow and shrink, and that's it. But they're great. So I was just wondering how you view that.

Speaker 5 (00:36:47):

I'm a fan. Honestly, my favorite thing to write just because I'm such a top line guy, I love just writing vocals and melodies and lyrics. I love when I can get a track and it's just one progression played differently in each section, but that's almost too poppy, I think for a lot of the warp toward tight bands. So anywhere between generally three to five parts. And I'm pretty happy with, I don't really like to get more than maybe five parts, and that's just me. I know a lot of my friends that are writers and producers, they can make great songs with multiple parts. But for me, I kind of grew up listening to country and pop. So my basis is always in hearing familiar things. A bunch of times

Speaker 3 (00:37:33):

I come from the school where a song is about one idea, one point of view, one idea, one

Speaker 5 (00:37:39):

Emotion

Speaker 3 (00:37:40):

Or whatever. And I kind of feel like when people start adding too much to that, it's like, why don't you take those ideas and make another song with them?

Speaker 5 (00:37:48):

Exactly. The song I did yesterday for this new artist on 11 seven was just one progression. The intro was the guitars were playing the progression, and we had a certain lead over it, and then the verse hit and it was drum and bass, and the bass is playing the progression, and then the chorus hits and it's back to the intro. And then I love those because I think subconsciously the less changes you have, the more cohesive the song feels to the listener and they can get attached to it more.

Speaker 3 (00:38:16):

That makes sense. So do you know any music theory at all, or you just do it by ear?

Speaker 5 (00:38:21):

No, I wish I, I knew music theory, but I don't.

Speaker 3 (00:38:24):

Why do you wish you knew it?

Speaker 5 (00:38:26):

One, I wish I knew it because I have this piano right here that I really just look like an idiot on when I hop on it. But I know how to play guitar, but I want to know why I like what I like. I think that'll help me write better songs the more I can reason why do I like the way this feels. So my engineer here, his name's kj, he is a music theory genius. So I've had him just kind of be like, Hey, I like that. Why do I like that? And he'll kind of explain it like, well, this goes to here and then this is this. So I don't know it, but I have a guy here that kind of helps me make sense, and he keeps notes of what I like so we can get back to those quicker.

Speaker 3 (00:39:04):

I think that theory is mainly there to help communicate with other people and stuff, especially if you already know what you're trying to hear and how to translate it into the real world. I don't know that it really makes that much of a difference, but in terms of talking to professional musicians or arrangers or whatever, then maybe it kind helps a

Speaker 4 (00:39:27):

Little bit. Yeah, it's great for explaining things like, all right, we're going to build up in the three chord and then we're going to pop back to the four on the next part. And it's a great way of communicating those types of ideas without being fret six, then seven, then eight, then

Speaker 5 (00:39:40):

Yeah. And then I guess the elite crew of that is the Nashville Number system. I just learned about that a few months ago. My friend was writing a book on it, and I was intrigued. He explained it to me and it's like, wow. He's like, yeah, people walk in, they'll just track full length albums worth of music in two days straight up, because they just have this number system. They just read it off a sheet. It's just insane. So it's like, I guess if music theory is used that just to communicate then, but I want to do it to look under the hood of why I like what I like.

Speaker 3 (00:40:11):

That makes sense too.

Speaker 5 (00:40:12):

What do you

Speaker 4 (00:40:12):

Think makes a hit song?

Speaker 5 (00:40:14):

I like that question. It's fun. If I actually knew the answer to that, I would be doing a lot more than I am right now here in la I'm sure. I'm trying to think. To me, my favorite writers of hit songs are Max Martin is obviously number one. I think whatever he has figured out is what people want to hear. He knows when to say what to say and how to get it to come across. So are you speaking literally or philosophically?

Speaker 4 (00:40:44):

Oh, I just asked for your opinion on it. What do you think makes a song a hit?

Speaker 5 (00:40:47):

I think a hit song is a believable vocalist connecting with a believable lyric in an interesting digestible way. I think that's really what it is. I think a lot of people can write simple songs that are boring and suck, and I think a lot of talented people can write songs that have too many parts and are too long and go over people's heads. I think it's finding the bliss point. I think it's finding, just getting in people's head just enough to where they want to hit play again as soon as the song's over.

Speaker 2 (00:41:17):

As with anything, I think you find that it's all about the perfect balance. You add salt to something and it tastes better, but if you add too much salt, it tastes like shit. So it's all about the right amount.

Speaker 3 (00:41:30):

So do you ever get Rudder's Blanc?

Speaker 5 (00:41:32):

Yeah, I didn't think I did. And then I think about three or four weeks ago, I got writer's block for a week and two weeks, and I was in denial. So I was in here writing songs and I didn't like any of 'em, and I was kind of confused as to what was going on, so I kind of just stopped for a few days and then just came back. I don't know. Is block a real thing? You think it's a real thing?

Speaker 3 (00:41:54):

I think so. Well, I think that energy that you have to devote to something is finite. I think that that's been shown, and creativity is a renewable resource, but you definitely have a window of productivity or of creativity that you'll expend after a certain amount of time. And I think that after using it for weeks on end or months, it'll reach a point where you need a few days to just recharge the engine, I think. Yeah,

Speaker 5 (00:42:26):

And I think one of the things that helps me with Writer's Block is trying to work with different kinds of artists. I was working with a lot of rock active rock type artists, and I switched over to this artist that kind of sounds like Vampire Weekend and Two-Door Cinema Club, which is just more of a, I guess for lack of a better word, just alternative kind of record. And immediately I was more creative and I was more, I guess it was just the juices were flowing more. So I think if you're able to switch lanes or turn left or turn right on what you're doing, I think that helps minimize rider's block.

Speaker 3 (00:43:01):

I agree completely. I've always told people that if you're finding yourself super stuck on something, just work on something else, preferably in a different genre.

Speaker 5 (00:43:12):

Yeah. I was working on, I got the chance to work with a guy that actually wrote the title track for the new Justin Bieber record last week. And so he came in and I'm like, well, we're not going to write a metal song. I'm pretty sure. I don't think this guy's going to do that. So we just kind of talked, and he actually came from the Warp Tour world as well, but he's a writer out here now, and so we kind of just hung out for a bit and talked, and we just started writing something in his world more, but it was so much more creative because it wasn't something that I was used to. Whether or not the song was good or not is debatable, but it's just saying switching it up, working with different people out here is also a helpful thing. I think collaboration sparks things you won't necessarily get on your own.

Speaker 2 (00:43:58):

Yeah. One thing I've always tried to do is if I am in a moment and I feel like I'm kind of on a tangent, I'll get all those ideas out as fast as possible. Voice memos if I'm in front of my computer, just into the microphone or whatever, get all those things out of my system as fast as possible so that I can immediately take in more content from just radical. I'll just take a 180, I might be working on an alt rock song and I'll get my ideas out, but then I'll just go and hop into a pop track or a rap song just to clear my palette, I guess. And that helps me stay, I guess, innovative and fresh, because then when I come back to my, whatever I'm working on, I have a sort of new ears on it, if that makes any sense.

Speaker 5 (00:44:51):

Yeah. It's like you put your edge back into what you're used to. If you sit there for too long, then it kind of wears you down mentally. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:44:59):

Yeah. Because you get into that loop, that cycle where things start, where you start to question and you start to go back on certain things that you were really confident about, but now you're not sure. And those things. We actually talked to Sahaj Tickin, and he said a lot of things that people are driven by is fear, and that can be really detrimental to the whole process if you're fear driven. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (00:45:24):

Oh yeah, for sure.

Speaker 2 (00:45:25):

So

Speaker 3 (00:45:25):

Let's talk a little bit about your refinement process. You write a hook in your sleep basically, and then lay down a basic arrangement and come back a few days later. What if you're like, this is good, but it needs to be bettered? How do you go about improving the melody? Do you have any tips or steps you take, and at what point do you just decide, fuck it, I'm trashing this?

Speaker 5 (00:45:50):

Yeah, I think if there's something I'm working on, I take it home actually, and I think this is one of the best tests I have, is I show it to my wife because she doesn't care about any technicality. She doesn't care about any of that stuff. I just want to see what someone who's not in the music industry thinks about the song, what's going to help me get the best feedback. So she'll kind of say like, oh, I love this, and it might be a song I think's, okay. And it kind of like, oh, but if I think the song's insane and I play it for her, and she's like, that lyric sounds weird, what's that about? I'm like, damn it. All right. So I'll sit there and I'll kind of take feedback, go back in, listen to it, try to listen to it with fresh ears, and if I don't like the hook, then I literally just save as delete the vocals and I'll try to write it. I never wrote anything over it again, which I have no rhyme or reason to the melody. It's just literally what I'm thinking of. I try to throw 'em down and play it back and delete it until I like something.

Speaker 3 (00:46:50):

Is it hard for you to come up with a brand new melody over something you're already used to hearing?

Speaker 5 (00:46:55):

It used to be, but now it is much easier. I have a really good compartmentalization in that aspect.

Speaker 3 (00:47:01):

So basically you don't really refine the melodies. It's more like, if it comes out great, cool, and if not, you'll make a new one.

Speaker 5 (00:47:09):

Exactly. Yeah, that's pretty much it. I think if the melody isn't great, then I want to just try as many completely different ones as I can

Speaker 3 (00:47:18):

Rather than polish a turd or a semi turd.

Speaker 5 (00:47:21):

Yeah, it's weird how that works, actually. It's funny you ask that because I've never even thought to keep part of a melody. If I don't like the melody, I'd literally just delete it and start over.

Speaker 3 (00:47:31):

Well, I personally think that to become a good writer, you have to be willing to move on from songs a lot. I've just noticed that a lot of people get real attached to parts and songs, and I feel like that prevents them from getting better because they're not willing to just trash things and do something new.

Speaker 5 (00:47:48):

The attachment thing can ruin a song. It can ruin a record. It can ruin a band, too. If a band walks in here and wants me to make a record, then I'm assuming that they're going to know that I'm going to be pretty hands-on about the composition. And so that can mean anything could change. And if they're walking in here, they should be pretty open-minded about it, which I will say pretty much every artist that I work with is, but I've heard horror stories from producer friends of people just threatening to quit the band because they want change stuff. And it's like, why do you not want your song to be the best it can be? Because

Speaker 4 (00:48:22):

My bass part is the best bass part ever.

Speaker 3 (00:48:25):

It's my message, man. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:48:29):

We had one of our earlier shows, one of our first, I think within the first 10 shows or something like that, we actually had an episode with Andrew Wade and he was talking about the issue of getting into those argumentative states, and he's like, look, man, I want the song to be as amazing as possible so that all of us can make a lot of money from this. I am not sitting here arguing with you about this guitar part because just because I think my idea is cooler than yours, I don't care. I want the song to just be the best song ever so that we can all go to Hawaii or whatever the fuck it is that you do at the end of the, so I really like that perspective, and I think it's easy to lose sight of that when you're in the moment too, because people can get so behind their ideas and so opposed to others. But really that is the ultimate goal, is to just make the best, trying to make the best song you can.

Speaker 5 (00:49:34):

And another thing that I think is equally as cool, if I feel really passionate about a part and I show it to someone, whether it be my engineer or someone with, and they just kind of think it's meh, there might be a few seconds there where I'm fucking pissed because I thought it was awesome and passionate about it. If I'm working with an artist and they write something and I'm like, me, and they get fucking pissed, then I kind of respect that because I'm like, I want you to get passionate about what we're doing. That doesn't mean we're not going to change it. I want it to be a back and forth. Some of the best songs I've written have been passionate back and forth of just constant sandpaper to each other because we're both so into making this song incredible that there's this friction, and without sounding cheesy, that can spark a great song.

Speaker 2 (00:50:28):

And I mean, as easy as it is for someone else to be like, oh yeah, that's cool. Oh yeah, that's cool. Over and over again, that starts to get a little bit boring.

Speaker 5 (00:50:39):

I mean, there's some co-write done with bands or artists and they just sit silently, and I'm just like, what do you guys think? Yeah, sounds cool.

Speaker 3 (00:50:48):

And then you hear what they hate after the record's already released.

Speaker 5 (00:50:52):

Yeah. In the liner notes. And also, fuck you, that song wasn't that good.

Speaker 3 (00:50:58):

Yeah, exactly. So we've got some questions from our audience for you that

Speaker 5 (00:51:04):

We'd

Speaker 3 (00:51:05):

Like to ask. So David Wilkerson is wondering, what's the process like to create and mix in an electronic piece of music that transitions between metal styles and electronic styles, like on motionless and white or something?

Speaker 5 (00:51:20):

The electronic stuff, mixing into the music is kind of, I guess in terms of the writing side of it, it's trying to marry two vibes that Chris is feeling, which is one is obviously complete anger and one is complete. I guess what kind of emotion is electronic stuff? Maybe just kind of etherealness or whatnot?

Speaker 3 (00:51:41):

Yeah, the kind he likes,

Speaker 2 (00:51:42):

For lack of a better word, I guess maybe ambiance and sort of atmosphere.

Speaker 5 (00:51:48):

And I think that those kinds of things are just taking two emotions that he has very strongly putting them together and trying to figure out how to make that one complete emotion. And I didn't mix those records or engineer those records, so I don't know how they did it technically, but I think that's always something that Chris was keeping on the forefront of his mind was again, the balance, balance of the emotion. If he just gave you metal, it might be more boring. If he just gave you the electronics, it would definitely be more boring. So he tried to figure out a way to take two things that he felt and get them out at the right balance.

Speaker 3 (00:52:26):

And if you think about the emotion behind both those things, in his case, they do go together. If the sink is creepy and the metal is angry, that goes together. It's not a huge contrast.

Speaker 5 (00:52:39):

Yeah, it goes with his whole brand. That's one thing that he's good at being cohesive from the name to the lyrics, to the titles, to the merch, to the live show, to the way they look on stage to the sonics. Everything is about having one cohesive vision, and I think that's why it works for them.

Speaker 3 (00:52:56):

Yeah, absolutely. So Carl Winy is asking, do you prefer to rhyme lyrics or not worry about it?

Speaker 5 (00:53:03):

Rhyme I think is secondary to melody, and I think artists like Ed Sheeran in 1975 prove that. And I think even Max does it if you have a great melody, whether it be as long as the melody is repeating, in my opinion, the rhyme is super helpful, but not 100% needed. I agree with that.

Speaker 3 (00:53:25):

So Carl is also asking or saying every song is different, but do you prefer to end vocals on a high note or a lower note? And I'm sure you're going to say it depends.

Speaker 5 (00:53:35):

Yeah. I mean, I guess it depends on the emotion and what he's saying. Usually I end on a higher note because in rock music it's kind of just about getting out there and blowing people away. If I was doing an Ed Shean song, probably a low note. Giovanni

Speaker 2 (00:53:51):

Angel asks, aside from a good bridge in a song, what other parts are paramount for you when you're writing heavy songs? And can you also touch on some of the legal aspects of co-writing with artists?

Speaker 5 (00:54:02):

I actually learned this from Dino in Fear Factory. I worked with them recently when I moved out here, and he imparted a little bit of knowledge saying, at least in heavy music, he thinks that grabbing people's attention with a great riff for heavy music is paramount. And obviously you can hear that in fear of factory songs, but I agree that whether it be a vocal or an electronic piece production or a guitar riff or something cool, you have to grab people because that's what, if you're going to go put on a heavy metal record, you're going to want to be grabbed. So you do something quick to grab someone. And then I think the chorus has to be not cheesy because it's really easy to write cheesy metal choruses. And I think those two things together, and honestly I think really long metal songs, at least for commercial release can become monotonous because it's just so much in your ear. I think keeping heavier commercial release metal songs shorter is helpful to get a replay.

Speaker 3 (00:55:07):

Well, riffs good riffs great riffs are hooks.

Speaker 5 (00:55:11):

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 3 (00:55:12):

And I wish that more modern bands would use them like that rather than just a heavy chug or something like that. A good riff is pretty much the first hook that the audience is going to hear, or the second one.

Speaker 4 (00:55:30):

Case in point. Crazy Train.

Speaker 5 (00:55:32):

Exactly. You can play Crazy Train. You can go play On My Mind by Ellie Golding right now, which has a guitar hook. You can go play any genre of music and they all use guitar as hook additions. And I think that for some reason right now in the world that we play in a lot, they're forgetting that. But then you go and play Fear Factory and you're like, holy shit, these guys knew how to write crazy guitar hooks.

Speaker 2 (00:56:00):

That's exactly what I was about to say was like, man, every Fear Factory song is identified with, and even if that's not the most amazing guitar riff ever, you'll know exactly what song it is by that rhythm and that guitar sound.

Speaker 5 (00:56:18):

Yeah. It helps give each song an identity in heavy music.

Speaker 2 (00:56:21):

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And then the second part of his question, which was the legal aspect of co-writing with artists, and I'm actually curious about this too. I was hoping that you would expand on that a little bit.

Speaker 5 (00:56:32):

No, yeah. I mean sometimes it goes different ways. If you go to Nashville, there's called Nashville Rules and in the Room gets an equal split. I could walk in the room and Joey, you and me could write a song and it'd be 50 50 even if you did the whole thing or I did the whole thing. It's just an agreed upon thing in Nashville. It keeps it simple, keeps it there. But here in LA and pretty much anywhere else I've written, you just, I'll usually work with the singer and the guitarist of each artist. So it's usually myself and two guys and we kind of sit there and go through it. And then when the song's done and the record's made and mixed and mastered, they'll send me the track back because as you know, Joey, things can change from the writer all the way up to master. So they'll basically send it back and they'll say, we think that this was the percentage that you did, and if I feel differently, then I'll explain why I feel differently. And then it's generally speaking a congenial back and forth process, and then everyone signs off on it and it's done. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:57:36):

I've always found that a little annoying, at least in my experience with this genre, is like you can go and do your research and find out how it works for the majority of the world, but then you come back to your situation, well, my situation, why does mine have to be different? Yeah. Creatively, I'm giving myself just as much, if not more, but I get less. So I always find that to be kind of the crutch here, especially if you are coming into this from a professional point of view, it can be frustrating. That's what comes with the landscape and that's what you're getting into. And on top of that though, you're not dealing with the pressures of what you experience in Nashville anyways. It's a lot more loose and more casual.

Speaker 5 (00:58:25):

Yeah, and I was trying to think, I think the last one that I had written on that you produced was I did one of the songs on the new Bless the Fall record.

Speaker 2 (00:58:36):

Yeah, yeah. Actually, I remember we've discussed you many times during that process.

Speaker 5 (00:58:42):

Oh, rad. That song changed from when they were here to when I got it back. So we had to go back and forth of like, okay, this makes sense and this makes sense. I think I don't have the pressure of making sure that composition sounds fucking crazy. It is the producer's job. So in your case, that was what you had to do, but you didn't have to worry about trying to make sure that this was here or this was that you kind of were able to do what you were saying, taking something that they had started that you dug and just bringing it to life and growing it to where it needed to be.

Speaker 2 (00:59:14):

Yeah. My approach to that was to kind of, even though I knew you had worked on the song or well, actually, what I say to the band many times is I don't want to know who, I don't want to be influenced by any of that.

Speaker 5 (00:59:27):

Exactly.

Speaker 2 (00:59:28):

I just want to listen to the song and be like, is it there yet? Yeah, this song's starting to sound like it's there. We maybe move this over here. And that was my approach to the whole thing. So I looked at it from as if the band had just completely done it themselves, but knowing that they hadn't done that and knowing that everybody would get their credit, but just kind of assume, okay, this portion of it has been taken care of, so now what is the next step to take it to the next level?

Speaker 5 (00:59:58):

Yeah. Sometimes I'm not even able to finish songs with artists. I think that bust the fall track that I did, we only got through the first course, so it was kind of like, all right, I hope you guys are able to take this and run with it, which they did, so I'm sure you had to be heavier handed on things like that.

Speaker 2 (01:00:15):

Yeah, absolutely. And kudos to you. Good job. Thank

Speaker 5 (01:00:19):

You.

Speaker 2 (01:00:19):

I love all the songs on the album, so that includes the ones you worked on because you did work on the songs. Thank you.

Speaker 3 (01:00:26):

Well, drew, thanks for coming on. That's all the questions we've got. Cool.

Speaker 5 (01:00:30):

Thanks for having me. Yeah,

Speaker 3 (01:00:31):

You've been a great guest and hopefully we can have you on here again in the future.

Speaker 2 (01:00:36):

Of course. And if there's anything you want our audience to check out, any URLs or anything like that, go ahead with them.

Speaker 5 (01:00:44):

Actually, I don't even have a site up right now, so I guess just if you're out there and you're writing, yeah, you

Speaker 2 (01:00:49):

Do.

Speaker 5 (01:00:49):

I have a site.

Speaker 3 (01:00:50):

Okay. How do you think I did research on you?

Speaker 5 (01:00:55):

Oh, dang. Okay, well then I need to go first. Keep up to date with your own websites. And I honestly think that if you're out there and you're writing songs, then just don't overthink it. Just try to write what feels good, and usually that's going to help you write a better song. Are

Speaker 2 (01:01:12):

You still think sound? Is that still your thing?

Speaker 5 (01:01:15):

No, since I moved out here to LA I'm actually producing under the name Wizard Blood.

Speaker 2 (01:01:20):

Okay, so that's like your new,

Speaker 5 (01:01:22):

That's the moniker name. Now that I'm out here in LA wearing sunglasses every day,

Speaker 3 (01:01:28):

At least it's not Tiger Blood. I've heard a rumor that he's about to announce that he's got HIV. Holy crap. I don't know if that's just some dumb internet rumor. Probably is. Yeah, probably.

Speaker 2 (01:01:39):

Well, thanks a lot for coming on the show. Appreciate your time so much. Best of luck for all your future songwriting situations, and thank you, sir. Getting out of your songwriters block, which I think you did recently anyway.

Speaker 5 (01:01:50):

Yes, yes. I feel good now. Thanks, drew. Awesome. Thanks guys.

Speaker 1 (01:01:54):

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