JAMIE KING & DAN BRIGGS: A 15-year partnership, the nightmare ‘Alaska’ sessions, and the breakthrough of ‘Colors’

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

The Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast is brought to you by Empire Ears. In collaboration with Grammy winning producers, engineers, and their family of touring musicians, empire Ears has developed a line of in ear monitors that deliver what you need for every mix. When it comes to unrivaled stage clarity, or needing a flat and honest reference for your latest studio mix, empire Ears has got you covered no matter where you find yourself. And now your host,

Speaker 2 (00:00:29):

Eyal Levi. Welcome to the URM Podcast. I am Eyal Levi, and I just want to tell you that this show is brought to you by URM Academy, the world's best education for rock and metal producers. Every month on Nail the Mix, we bring you one of the world's best producers to mix a song from scratch, from artists like th God Shuga, periphery the Day to Remember. Bring me the Horizon, Opeth many, many more, and we give you the raw multi-track so you can mix along. You'll also get access to Mix Lab, our collection of bite-sized mixing tutorials and Portfolio Builder, which are pro quality multi-tracks that are cleared for use in your portfolio. You can find out [email protected]. Hello everyone. If you are a member of the Metal community or know anything about it, you know that the Grammys have not always been kind to us, though in recent years, they've made a big effort to move towards having actual metal bands who are not just legacy acts, but current bands that are doing great new music.

(00:01:37):

They made a big effort to recognize those bands dominate those bands, have those bands win, which is really, really important because for the longest time, we were getting Hard Rock and Don metal bands or classic rock bands in the metal category, and frankly, it wasn't cool. It was not giving credit to the bands that were pushing these genres forward. So now that they have made this effort, I want to support that effort because anything that helps make our genre relevant is good by me, and especially stuff like the Grammys or anything coming from the wider music industry or the wider world in general that legitimizes our genre. That's great to me. So I'm doing a series of podcast episodes where I'm going to be talking to the nominees for the 2019 Best Metal Performance Grammy. And first up is between the Buried and Me who are nominated for their most recent record, condemned to the Gallows, which was produced by their longtime collaborator, Jamie King, mixed by the incredible Jens Bogren.

(00:03:05):

And today I've got Jamie King on with Dan Briggs for the band. He's their longtime bassist. He also does some keyboards and just a little background on these guys. Jimmy King is a 22 year veteran of production, and he owns and operates the basement recording out of Winston-Salem, North Carolina. He's worked with a ton of bands, motionless and white through the eyes of the Dead, the contortionist, and of course, this episode is going to specialize or focus on his work with the Mighty Between The Buried and Me. He's been working with them since the very beginning, and he's been on almost everything that they've done to some capacity, and they've gone to other people and as you'll hear, they've come back to him over and over and over. And that's something that those of you who are trying to establish yourself in production are hopefully trying to cultivate is some bands that just stick with you through their entire career so that you grow together.

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Now, Dan Briggs has been playing bass as well as doing backup vocals and keyboards for the band since around 2005, and he's been, he has several side projects that are great as well, but he comes from a legitimate schooled musical background and is just a powerhouse of a musician. And if you want to check out some of his other projects, they're called Nova Collective Orbs and Trio Scapes. But this guy is just a phenomenal musician, great bass player, and so I'm proud to welcome both Mr. Jamie King and Dan Briggs from between the Barrett and me to the URM podcast. Here goes Mr. Dan Briggs. Welcome to the URM Podcast, Jimmy King. Welcome back to the URM podcast. I'm stoked to have you guys both here, stoked to talk some shit.

Speaker 3 (00:05:16):

Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having us.

Speaker 2 (00:05:18):

Yeah, so let's just get into it. You guys have known each other going on 15 years now? Yeah.

Speaker 4 (00:05:24):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:05:24):

It was since 2000, 2004,

Speaker 4 (00:05:27):

Five. Yeah. Yeah. I was probably only down here for a month, and then if you remember, we came to do an Alaska demo at the old basement and what, in three or four months, three members of the band had changed me and Dusty and Blake had joined, and I think we just wanted to record a demo, that song to be like, Hey, the band is still a thing and this is what we sound like. And that was, yeah, 14 years ago.

Speaker 2 (00:05:55):

Did you move there to join the band? Are you saying that you're not from there?

Speaker 4 (00:05:59):

I was in school in Pennsylvania, and I grew up there and I did three semesters in school, and then I left and I moved down here when I was 20, so to join the band. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:06:12):

Isn't it funny how in most cases that would be a bad idea?

Speaker 4 (00:06:17):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:06:19):

I guess it worked. Worked out this time though.

Speaker 4 (00:06:22):

Yeah, I was in school studying music performance, and thankfully my parents were super supportive. My mom's a music teacher and she knew that I had been listening to the band for a couple of years and was really into them since their demo and the old band prayer for cleansing. So she was super psyched. It worked out.

Speaker 2 (00:06:43):

So Jamie, when you hear that there's going to be this new bass dude named Dan coming in where you're like, fuck, I hope this guy is not a fuckup, or were you like, yes, this guy's going to be sick? Where was your head at?

Speaker 3 (00:06:59):

I didn't give a shit, actually. I didn't even know none of the above. I think they just showed up. I mean, I had recorded BT VM, the first lineup or whatever with Jason King, and then they had gone through, like Dan mentioned, they had gone through a couple bass players since then. What was, they did a counting Crows cover with the other guy.

Speaker 4 (00:07:18):

Oh, yeah, they did that with you though, right?

Speaker 3 (00:07:20):

Yeah, so I recorded a Counting Crows cover before Dan was into the band. It was with another guy named Kevin, I believe. Aside from Tommy and Paul, there was kind of a revolving door of drummers and bass players and extra guitar players up until what is now the classic lineup of Alaska. Dan joined. But yeah, Dan came in. He was obviously a master at what he was doing. Pretty much everything was pretty one take on that demo, even the record.

Speaker 4 (00:07:49):

Yeah, I remember being super, especially I think when we did the demo, I just really wanted to, because it was the first time I was playing even for the guys isolated, and I just wanted to really nail it, nail that song, and of course, we weren't even to a click track at that point, so Ouch. Thankfully Blake's pretty much a metronome, so thankfully that made it feel solid.

Speaker 2 (00:08:12):

Jamie, were you thinking that you were going to get to work with someone that you'd end up working with for a decade and a half, or were you like, ah, this is just going to be one of another part of the revolving door? The reason I'm asking is because as a producer, there's been lots of times where I have a band I've worked with and they go through lineup changes and they'll be like, this new dude's sick, and they'll come to record, and the new dude's not even close to as good as the last dude was. That doesn't always happen. Sometimes the new guy is unbelievable. I hate to admit this because I feel like a dick, but if I'm being honest, whenever I hear about new people coming in, unless I know who they are, I'm a little skeptical.

Speaker 5 (00:09:03):

Oh yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:09:04):

But that's just because a dick, you're not

Speaker 3 (00:09:07):

A dick. Oh, I am, trust me, large in part today, I mean, I've always considered myself kind of that stepping stone producer guy. At that time, I was still working in my parents' dirty basement. It was just all budget gear. I want to say maybe were we still tracking with eight ads at that point? Maybe not.

Speaker 4 (00:09:24):

I don't think so, no.

Speaker 3 (00:09:25):

Okay. But yeah, I mean, it was still quite project. I didn't have absolute top gear and things like that. So with BT BM in general, I just thought, yeah, hey, I'm here to do these guys' demos, and I felt lucky I was getting to do an actual label, released Alaska record, the recording. I never thought in terms of, Hey, we'll be still working together. 20 years later, most bands they recorded with me and worked their way through the ranks and end up recording with somebody real, and that's what I assume would happen with BT Band, but those guys are either retarded or they're very generous.

Speaker 2 (00:10:04):

It's funny though, that you're very humble. You don't consider yourself somebody real, but you've made some very real records, Scott, lucky man. Alright. But I mean, we all get lucky. I think we're all lucky in who we've met. You know what I mean? I'm lucky that the people I've met over introduced me to certain people who then introduced me to other people, and one thing led to another, but I mean, as far as I'm concerned, that's as far as luck goes. Yeah. Then again, also, so it's like you're lucky that you met the right people who were in the right band, who was at the right time in history, that in the right genre, all that stuff, that stuff's all out of your control. But I mean, whether or not you do a good job on the record is not out of your control. That's totally in your control.

Speaker 3 (00:11:00):

Well, I mean, I think with the BT BAM camp, I think it's always been important. I know to Paul and Tommy from the very beginning are just people who are cool and who have a good work ethic, common interest in goals and things like that or whatever, and I think that's what those guys saw in me or whatever, that I was obviously a fan. I remember when I first recorded them back in 2000, this height of rap rock and new metal, and I was wondering, I loved it because I grew up on progressive thrash metal and stuff like that. I love what they were doing. I was like, why are you guys doing this? It's never going to do anything. I literally, I remember asking the guys that I was like, why are you doing some real metal right now? They're like, guys, just what we like.

(00:11:44):

I remember because bt bam, I had bt Bam in the studio when they did the first record, which was a live recording basically. I asked them if they wanted to open for my band. They actually opened from my band in 2000, which is hilarious. I think we were kind of a new metal outfit or whatever back in the day, and they're like, man, this is the biggest crowd we've ever played in front of, played for and whatever. And it, it's funny how things kind of come around, but I think they knew I was a fan and like I said, I think that worth ethics, we did common things and we all have a kind of common, terrible, sarcastic sense of humor also, which makes it a lot of fun.

Speaker 4 (00:12:27):

We do. There's a lot of, I mean, there's a lot of elements that go into it. I think it's probably customary, I mean, we know from some of the outside working experiences we've had with producers where when you show up, I mean, we worked with a guy who wanted us to actually chart out some of our compositions to Paul and I, and he wanted time signatures. He wanted a rundown of the whole song, and we show up on the first day tracking drums

Speaker 2 (00:12:55):

Chart out like Berkeley College of Music style chart, jazz band chart.

Speaker 4 (00:13:00):

It was unreal. But when we show up with Jamie and we're starting to do drums, somehow he already has a sense of the song. He already gets it. He knows magically it seems like he already knows the layout and what's happening without, I mean, I think Blake sends you the demos, but you probably have listened to 'em while you're working on mixes and masters for other things. I

Speaker 3 (00:13:24):

Think, like I said, we all grew up on kind of the same, I mean, everybody has different influences, obviously in the band, including myself, but we just all grew up. I grew up on dream theater and all these other bands and a lot of the same stuff that the guys were listened to, I listened to. And so I think we just instinctively have an idea of, and we've evolved together also, which is kind of interesting. I think we've evolved in similar directions, which is strange.

Speaker 2 (00:13:49):

You know what I think is interesting now that you're saying that it makes me think of my own background and I guess more complex music or a varied musical background, which I think that I know what you guys are saying because I think that there's not that many people who have this particular musical background, but I remember hearing BT Bam stuff in 2004, 2005, six, whatever, back in those days, and being able to understand the influences and understand the direction, understand I got it. And I was like, Hmm, I bet that we listen to similar music or something like that. I feel like I knew where their heads were at, and I liked that because it's a very unique musical background. You don't hear that in too many bands. So I imagine, and Dan, correct me if I'm wrong, but I imagine that while there's probably a lot of producers who are technically good enough to work with you guys, you guys need someone who is not only technically good enough, but who conceptually gets what you guys are doing, or else it could be a fucking disaster.

Speaker 4 (00:15:03):

Yeah, I mean, we're a band when we show up to the studio, I mean, the songs are 100% arranged and written, and you don't want to go in and have someone question why you've dropped an eighth note on the last phrase each time, or why you want to put bluegrass on over a heavy section or why you want to play the mandolin in this part, and you just want it to be like, okay, awesome. Let's try it. Let's do it.

Speaker 3 (00:15:32):

I know I get stoked on this. Like I said, I get stoked on the same stuff and they know it. I encourage probably some of their worst decisions, making things more wild. But yeah, I think that's part of what's Btba has always been. And name

Speaker 2 (00:15:46):

Me one that you think is more wild or a bad decision that it isn't really a bad decision, but name me one, just so for people who don't know the band or you, for example, I keep finding ways to inspire

Speaker 3 (00:16:03):

Animals. On the record,

Speaker 4 (00:16:07):

There's a shrieking cat on the new record that ended up pretty loud in Jen's mix. Yeah,

Speaker 3 (00:16:13):

That was hilarious. Yeah, he loved it. Obviously, that's kind of a joke, but yeah, that might've been Paul's idea. Whose idea was that? I don't

Speaker 4 (00:16:20):

Know.

Speaker 3 (00:16:21):

Oh, so you guys sampled a cat. Every record almost has some sort of animal.

Speaker 4 (00:16:26):

Oh, yeah. Since colors.

Speaker 3 (00:16:28):

Yeah, I think so. Yeah, sort of. There's a horse and there's the ep. There's what the string pool, Turkey sound

Speaker 6 (00:16:39):

On

Speaker 3 (00:16:39):

The CN say or whatever that thing is. They got the turkeys and sheep, and

Speaker 4 (00:16:44):

If you remember, we added all that afterwards. We tried to do the mix and you had to come save it.

Speaker 3 (00:16:51):

Yeah, your other producer wouldn't allow

Speaker 4 (00:16:53):

It. Right. So we came down here and added all that with you.

Speaker 2 (00:16:59):

Can you hear these animals or is it stuff that like little Easter eggs? Oh yeah, it's in there.

Speaker 4 (00:17:05):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:17:05):

Okay.

Speaker 4 (00:17:05):

And especially if we told you the exact minute in time where it happens, you would hear it.

Speaker 2 (00:17:12):

Yeah. Are these NSA secrets or is this something that listeners are allowed to know where they happen?

Speaker 4 (00:17:19):

Yeah, absolutely. I mean,

Speaker 2 (00:17:21):

I just think it's amazing. I love animals.

Speaker 4 (00:17:25):

The cat is on the last song on the record. I can't think of if you literally want an actual example. I'm trying to think.

Speaker 2 (00:17:33):

So the last song on the most recent record? Yeah,

Speaker 4 (00:17:35):

The grid. Okay. I don't know the time of it.

Speaker 3 (00:17:38):

I think there's this guitar thing that Paul does. It sounds like a die bomb or a cat or screech or something like that. It's like a whale, and it's like

Speaker 4 (00:17:46):

Kind of sounds like a whammy, like a whammy pedal or something, but it's a cat. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:17:53):

Oh, man. It's amazing. Sounds to me like you guys do what you want, but are there ever musical directions where you're specifically, we don't want to do that? Are there any areas that you purposefully avoid hip hop?

Speaker 4 (00:18:08):

Yeah. I don't know. I mean, we've had such a long career, both of us, thankfully and together that we've been able to grow and mature in a way together. So I feel like in the band, we've matured as composers and arrangers and Jamie gets better with every record that he does, and a couple of years go by and we get back together and we do our thing. I think there's a silly side to our band, which not a lot of people might not know if they don't know us and not know Jamie personally. And when we get together, we're generally pretty silly, and we spend the first week and a half just knocking out the rhythm stuff. We get it done. That's usually not that much fun.

Speaker 2 (00:18:50):

But when you say rhythm stuff, you mean drums, bass rhythm, guitar,

Speaker 4 (00:18:54):

Drums, bass rhythm, guitars, anything that's not a lead or a fun layer, anything too crazy. We knock that out and then we just spend the rest of the time kind of just having fun in the studio.

Speaker 2 (00:19:08):

Yeah. Week and a half. That's actually really fast. Do you mind if we talk about that a little bit?

Speaker 6 (00:19:14):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:19:14):

I'm actually kind of blown away by that speed because I don't know, I've worked with some really good bands and I'm used to a week or a week and a half on drums, and then another week or a week and a half on Rhythm Guitars and then four hours on bass. No, I'm just kidding.

Speaker 4 (00:19:34):

We would lose our fucking mind if we did that. Could you imagine Blake for a week and a half?

Speaker 3 (00:19:39):

Oh, I know at the

Speaker 4 (00:19:40):

Ator, Blake always blocks out more time than he really needs to do the drums, and he ends up doing them in two days or something. I mean,

Speaker 2 (00:19:49):

Oh, he is one of those guys.

Speaker 4 (00:19:50):

He gets it going and then before you know it, it's done. What we've done since colors and it works so well is instead of having a marathon guitar day followed by Marathon Bass day, we don't really like that. We go one song at a time and we do the rhythm guitars for both sides, and then I come in and I do the bass. So really you're only prepping two, three songs at most for a day, and the other guys can freshen up on the next song while I'm tracking bass. A couple hours go by, then we switch off, and then I'm working on the next song while they're tracking. So we pretty much come in and just slam it once we get the tones.

Speaker 2 (00:20:32):

That's a really efficient way of doing things and a really smart way of doing things. I've made records a few times like that. I've always loved that. And also, not only is it efficient and keeps people inspired, but it's also insurance against injuries, for instance, that can really hold a record up. One of the things that I started doing towards the later part of my production career was recording vocals from the beginning. Well, not from the very beginning, but from the earliest point possible

Speaker 6 (00:21:05):

Where

Speaker 2 (00:21:05):

You could get, because on metal records, typically vocals are kind of an afterthought. They'll be done in the last three days and the vocalist will have to cram stuff, and that always weirded me out because arguably vocals are the most important thing on most records, and they're like I said, like an afterthought. And what's interesting to me is that I know that in some genres, at least vocals are not taken that seriously. But dude, even any of the bands that have gone in really, really big took their vocals seriously, even Lamb of God that's all screaming pretty much or was all screaming for the first 20 years, those vocals are meticulously produced. So I always thought that it makes more sense to give everybody, especially the vocalists a lot more time so that you can get them at top inspiration, top rested ness, top focus, top arm strength, top everything,

Speaker 5 (00:22:09):

And

Speaker 2 (00:22:09):

Just

Speaker 3 (00:22:10):

Give them a break. Don't wear them out metal drums also, I mean a lot of extreme stuff, it can really tire people out with the blast beats and things of that nature or whatever, but doing it in sections and breaking things up and splitting up days and stuff, it keeps you from getting burnout and keeps, like you just mentioned, inspired and fresh and all that stuff. I mean, it definitely makes sense and a lot of the smaller bands I work with, the people have to work and go to school and things of that nature, whatever, so we don't always get to do that ideal thing. But with the BT band, they've always been able to schedule more than enough time, and we can take it and take it and do it in a comfortable chunks or whatever. And like I said, we were talking about before, a lot of it has the speed in which they record has a lot to do with their proper preparation. In my mind, it's ideal that they've written and recorded the whole record once before they come to studio, at least all the basics. And that way we can come in and there's no, Hey, let me learn this riff or let me write this lyric or whatever. It's like let's just get the good tones, the good takes or whatever so we can focus on that and makes it way quicker, and then we have plenty of time at the end to do the fun texturing stuff.

Speaker 6 (00:23:33):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:23:33):

Dan, you already said that you guys are pretty prepared. I imagine I would kind of expect nothing less out of you guys. I think that there's no room for fucking around in this genre anyways, but as far as prepping for the studio goes, can you walk us through what that means for you guys as a band or individual players?

Speaker 4 (00:23:57):

Right, totally. So with the last couple releases with Automata and Coma Ecliptic, we had generally when we have a really good and productive writing session, we wrap about a month before we have to actually go into the studio, and we've had that with both those records and that month is so nice because for me as bassist, I usually don't come to my bass parts and really solidify 'em until that month because I'm more in composer arranger mode before that. So I am at rehearsal or at my desk with guitar, with keyboard while we're doing the writing, and then I kind of add my bass after Blake has solidified his drums because there used to be a lot of occurrences on maybe colors the great misdirect where I would meticulously write a bass part based off our guitar profile or whatever, and then Blake will come in with his accents and they're just the total opposite, which is awesome and leads to really cool rhythmic stuff. But instead of trying to fight those rhythms, I just would acquiesce and be like, okay, well, I'll rewrite my bass part. And so now I just kind of wait

Speaker 2 (00:25:13):

Smart.

Speaker 4 (00:25:14):

If there's ideas that I have, I kind of illustrate it in the reason file that I do. So we do all of our demoing and stuff in reason. That's where I generate a lot of my keyboard sounds and just what I work in at home. And Tommy and Blake have it, so it's easy for us to just send those files back and forth to each other. They're not bigger usually than 400 megabytes or so. And then in that month, really, Paul and I will write out our individual parts. It's like that's the time to do it. I'll go one song at a time, make sure I've got written and reason exactly what I want to do, and it sounds good, and then I go through and I notate it, I have it, and then I have that as a reference when we're here in the studio, if I am getting tripped up on something, I'll look and be like, oh, yeah, yeah, that note. That's right. That's,

Speaker 2 (00:26:05):

Hold on. A question about Guitar Pro or about notation. So you have an actual educated background in music, and obviously you guys know how to play, so I'm actually curious about this. I never get to talk to people such as yourselves about this exact topic, but I thought for a long time that Guitar Pro and that sort of thing kind of had a bit of a detrimental effect on the playing side of bands and not because I was trying to be an old school guy that was in my day, bands used to play in the same room and none of that. It's more just that they would write stuff and then not even check if it was playable on the instrument. They wouldn't even check if it was possible to have a good feel with it, and then they'd come to the studio and they'd have these parts that were just ludicrous. They just don't make any sense in the real world. I have experienced that. Okay. You know what I'm talking about?

Speaker 5 (00:27:09):

Yes.

Speaker 2 (00:27:10):

But Dan, with you guys, obviously you know how to play your instrument. Obviously you guys all know how to play your instruments. You were doing this before that technology came around, so you guys predate Guitar Pro as we know it now. So you had to learn by playing, I know this just based on age and history. So that said, how do you guys incorporate stuff like Guitar Pro or similar technologies in a way that doesn't fuck up your ability to play the parts right or with musical feel?

Speaker 4 (00:27:51):

Yeah, it's literally just for documentation. Just so, because you write an hour long record. We've got 10 of 'em now. I'm constantly writing. I was working on new music before I came here for a new band that I'm doing. I've got a lot of bands on the side. I can't remember shit. So literally

(00:28:11):

I started making songbooks during Alaska, and now a lot of bands make 'em, but I would make 'em back then just so I could remember the shit because it's too much. And if I have to go reference a song from that we didn't play on our last tour, I won't remember it. That's kind of been a fear of mine. I've thought about teaching lessons now that that's a legit fear. Now the Skype is a thing, and I don't want a kid to be like, oh, hey, I want to learn this riff or this section. And I'm like, well, hang on. Let me learn it first. Not in my brain. I'm constantly working on new music. Well,

Speaker 2 (00:28:46):

I mean, what if you haven't played it in 10 years?

Speaker 4 (00:28:48):

Exactly. So no. Yeah, for us, it's literally just the documentation, so we have it so we can play it. We do a lot of writing apart, but it generally happens in a program reason. You're either doing something or you, I'm recording, I'm playing guitar or something into it, and Paul will do some playing at home and send a guitar profile. Really, it's like if you want the other guys to learn this song or these parts that you've written, then you share a guitar profile so they can just physically see what the part is and learn it.

Speaker 3 (00:29:26):

You guys do it the right way. I was going to say, if I remember correctly, I remember Dan coming in and reading stuff off staff paper that he had written in the early Days, Alaska, that was pre Guitar Pro maybe, and you were doing that?

Speaker 4 (00:29:41):

Oh, totally. When we did that song, laser Speed, which was just like a lounge jazz, the way that what Alaska ends, I still do a lot of shorthand writing. If I'm learning a riff of Dusty's on the spot, I'm like, okay, just let me get these 16 notes. Let me jot down the rhythm real quick. For me, music notation has always just been really, it's just a language. So as much as you could type down a note in your phone or something, it's just like that. It's just jotting it down real quick so I have it. It's sort of that thing.

Speaker 2 (00:30:16):

I want to clarify something that you said earlier. So you were talking about how you guys did a song with a producer once and he wanted you to present him with the arrangement or whatnot.

Speaker 6 (00:30:29):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:30:30):

It sounds to me, from what you're telling me is that you already have the arrangements written out for all the songs anyways.

Speaker 4 (00:30:36):

Pretty much. But this would be

Speaker 2 (00:30:38):

More parts,

Speaker 4 (00:30:39):

More parts. He wanted to see each bar, so if there's a 32 bar break where I'm not playing where there's alternating time signatures, it was literally he wanted to be able to say, okay, Blake punch in at Measure 52.

Speaker 2 (00:30:51):

Oh, okay. So he wanted it as if he was grading you for an arrangement class or something?

Speaker 3 (00:30:57):

Exactly.

Speaker 4 (00:30:58):

Of course, Blake would be like, well, I don't know what Measure 52 is, and then we'd have to be like, oh, it's the beginning of this part. We had to sit in the room with it.

Speaker 3 (00:31:06):

To me, all that, just there's a level. I think some people just want to be nerds about it, and it just makes it difficult for no real reason. I think there's a lot of, that has gone on in the production realm for a long time for a lot of people like, Hey, let's come in and figure out all the click tracks to every single last thing. It's like, how about you play? And then we'll figure the click tracks out to what feels best.

Speaker 2 (00:31:30):

The thing with the arrangements is that it only works out, I guess, Dan, the way you're describing, if every single person on the project

Speaker 6 (00:31:40):

Is

Speaker 2 (00:31:40):

On the same page. Exactly. If you get a jazz band going into the studio, then that's the language they speak, or an orchestral project, they get their scores, that's how they communicate. But if you have a metal band where three of the guys went to music school or two of the guys and they read arrangements just fine. But then two of the guys are street musicians who are great, but they don't speak in that language necessarily, which is most actually in heavier music, which is perfectly fine. We'll slow things down.

Speaker 4 (00:32:16):

Our band is kind of a mix because me and Blake and Paul can talk in terms of theory or written notation or whatever. Dusty's come around to understanding those topics a little bit. But he is really just an ear guy and he's a phenomenal musician, and I wish I could get into his brain and hear how he understands our music because I'm so curious. And then Tommy's kind of the same. I think just from working with us over time, he's picked up more theoretical stuff, but he was just kind of like a pick it up and play it and do it guy, and that's awesome. But it's nice. On this record, we had some horn players come in, and so because of my background or whatever, thankfully I could write up the charts for them to be able to play for trombone and trumpet and be able to do it. And it's kind of a mix of those worlds. That's kind of how we operate.

Speaker 2 (00:33:11):

Jamie, question for you. You just talked about how some people way overthink this shit. I've experienced both, so I know exactly the situation that Dan's describing where this is super effective way to go, but I've also been in situations where the bands put this kind of stuff ahead of the music itself and their ability to play it.

Speaker 5 (00:33:36):

Exactly.

Speaker 2 (00:33:36):

And they get way hung up on having everything laid out properly instead of making the songs great. Where do you draw the line? Because obviously if you see BT Bam doing it, you probably don't think these idiots, but where's the line for

Speaker 3 (00:33:57):

You? Unfortunately, there's no line as far as I'm concerned, when there's whoever's paying for the records, the boss. So I try to make that person happy. Well,

Speaker 2 (00:34:09):

No, I know, but I'm just mean in the recesses of Jamie King's Dark Mind.

Speaker 3 (00:34:14):

Yeah, exactly. Where's the line? No, but yeah. Yeah. A lot of times I play mediator between the band members, and as you probably know, there's a lot of psychology that goes into working with artists, and a lot of times you have with bands, you have multiple members and a lot of people, one guy's thinking of things theoretically, other guy's thinking of things on how it feels, and then there's arguments and things like that. And I always try to find some kind of common ground and try to steer the band on what I think logically is the most important thing is how it feels, how it sounds, how the people are going to hear it and translate what you're doing and all that stuff. And a lot of times that doesn't involve the technicality aspects at all, in my opinion. I try to think of any kind of factual based information that I can share with them to convince them that the way they're seeing things is either correct or not exactly correct, or either best or not best.

(00:35:15):

But at the end of the day, like I said, I'm cornered into having records with aspects that I don't agree with wholeheartedly, oftentimes just because I personally feel like it's important for the artists, it's not my art. And I think a lot of producers, they get into the band's art too much or getting their way too much. I understand a lot of times a label might be paying the producer and stuff, and sometimes that's the case with me, but I'm still almost always on the side of the artist. I understand. I got into this because I was in a band and I wanted things to sound a certain way. I wanted to do certain things. And the producers, no matter how much I paid, we took a $90 an hour studio and they still wouldn't make my kick drums sound the way I wanted it to sound, even though they could. It is infuriating.

Speaker 2 (00:36:06):

Yeah, that shit would make me irate.

Speaker 3 (00:36:08):

That's what made me start recording. I knock those days. Yeah. I mean, because when I was recording, sound Garden was the big band or whoever, alternative Rock, and I still wanted my drums to sound like Pantera or Metallica or whatever, and they just would not do it. It's like, dude, I don't care what's popular right now. This is what I want my drums to sound like. So literally that's what, after recording other studios throughout high school and right after high school, I was like, I guess I just got to do this by myself or for myself. That's why I got into, I wanted things to sound a certain way, and I knew how to make 'em sound that way to a degree. I had researched it and I was like, I guess I just have to try to scrape up money to buy the equipment to do it myself. And then over time, I realized, oh, other bands wanted me to record. And then that led me to, between The Bear and Me and these other bands, I was getting the sounds that the underground bands wanted. Even there were way nicer real studios in the area, but the engineers or producers wouldn't give them the sounds they wanted, either they didn't know how or they just wouldn't do it. And so still to this day, I carry that with me. I want to do what the client is, what they're trying to express artistically and creatively.

Speaker 2 (00:37:24):

So I remember back in the late nineties and early two thousands, kind of when I was getting the decision together to start my own studio, I remember that phenomenon specifically, and I feel like you can't run a studio like that anymore. I feel like those days are over. I remember going to places that were like $90 an hour and them not doing what was right for us and just walking out with a $90 an hour piece of shit, and I

Speaker 5 (00:37:57):

Spent

Speaker 2 (00:37:57):

13 grand. Yeah, what is going on here? I don't think you can get away with that anymore, which I think is really, really great. But on the topic of you offering to people what they actually wanted regardless of whether or not you had some Neve console or something like that, I think that that's the most important thing. And so question is for you, Dan, you guys could have gone to just about any producer you want based on the size of the band. You did not have to stay with Jamie. I mean, obviously bigger bands can go wherever they want, but you guys have stayed working together this whole time, which says a lot. And I feel like we've covered a lot of why you guys stuck with Jamie, but if you had to say something to producers who are coming up, like the students of my school and podcast who are trying to create a career and hopefully establish relationships with artists where they do come back multiple times where it is a multi-year, multi album type of deal, what advice would you give them in order to try to secure that repeat business?

Speaker 4 (00:39:21):

Well, probably, I mean, honestly, a big part of it is just how you treat people. Don't be a dick.

Speaker 5 (00:39:26):

Be

Speaker 4 (00:39:27):

Open to what's happening, because we had a couple times where we stepped away to work with someone else, and then we came back for Alaska, but then also for Colors. Metal Blade had the idea for us to work with David Bre up in Toronto, and we came back and mixed it here, and then we came back to Jamie for the Parallax two. And really for us, it's that relationship. He's another member of our band, and we just feel so comfortable coming over here. I mean, this is what, two miles from our practice space,

Speaker 5 (00:40:02):

You

Speaker 4 (00:40:03):

Know what I mean? And it's for us to be here for a month, we go home at night, we drive in, and it's just so comfortable. It's what we do. And we brought Jens Bain into the mix as well, to be part of the last couple records and work with mixing and mastering. And we found we've found this great sort of worldwide unison, and we just met him, actually, I don't know if you know that, Jamie. We just met Ys on our last European tour. It was wild.

Speaker 3 (00:40:36):

Oh, that's awesome. Yeah,

Speaker 4 (00:40:37):

We were explaining to him what our relationship is like with you and how long it's been and all we've gone through. And he's got bands like that in Europe that he's worked with, pain of Salvation and some of the bigger metal bands that he's worked with over and over and over. And it's like, yeah, he's just down the road. But also, I mean, he gets our music. We've done all this great work together and we're going to continue to doing great work together.

Speaker 2 (00:41:03):

Yeah, I was going to say, I understand the proximity and the convenience is there, but I mean, if Jamie was a dick or sucked, I don't think you'd go back. They're very charitable guys, regardless of how close

Speaker 4 (00:41:16):

Both other situations that we had with other people had just these major negatives to them. So yeah, that's a big part of it as well as just being good at your job, obviously. I mean, that's the obvious.

Speaker 3 (00:41:30):

Yeah, being good. I mean, that's definitely important. You have to do the work that needs to be done. But yeah, I think having that family vibe of just being a cool, pleasant person to hang around, I mean, all that stuff's important and a lot of producers, all the students coming up, you got to know that you got to just treat people how you want to be treated as far as how you bill them, how you charge them, how your work ethic, you know what I'm saying? They want to see you care about the project as much as they do. And all that stuff's important, I think. And I think that's what's kept a lot of my return clients, including bt Bam. It's just they know I'm going to work hard. It might not be the best stuff out there, but I'm going to try and I try to take it up a notch every time. And I think they know that, and I know they're trying to do that the same thing. So it's, there's a common goal or whatever, and common trajectory between our crafts or whatever. So it sounds to me like

Speaker 2 (00:42:35):

The aspect of being good at what you do is just assumed, Dan, you guys are just not going to go to someone that's not good at what he does. So that's just a base level assumption. So with that assumed is the other stuff that makes the difference.

Speaker 4 (00:42:55):

Absolutely. I mean, plus Jamie's got an electric sitar, so

Speaker 3 (00:43:00):

Yeah, you do. Yeah, I lure them here with trinkets. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:43:07):

That's

Speaker 3 (00:43:07):

So cool. I have an interesting percussion

Speaker 2 (00:43:09):

Collection.

Speaker 6 (00:43:10):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:43:12):

Let's go back in time a little bit and kind of talk through some of these records. Is Alaska the first one you guys made together? Yeah.

Speaker 6 (00:43:19):

So

Speaker 2 (00:43:19):

Yeah, that

Speaker 3 (00:43:20):

Would be the first, the Alaska demo and then the Alaska full length, which I recorded and I did not mix that record.

Speaker 2 (00:43:28):

So Alaska is when at least, I mean, I had heard of the band before that, again, correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like Alaska is when the band started to really break. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 4 (00:43:41):

When that album came out was right probably about when people stopped buying records in the way that they did. And so that's our highest selling album. I think people might think that it was colors, but that was already into that era where that was kind of on the decline for everyone across the board. So yeah, I think Alaska, because there were the new personalities coming in, they were bringing new personalities musically and with them as well. I mean, I was just out of college, I was hopped up on fucking Boingo and Queen, gentle Giant, all this Prague stuff that I was really like, guys, this is what I'm about. And some of it they knew and were into other stuff they've gotten into over time. But yeah, there was a lot of new stuff happening on Alaska, and so I think that's when it started opening up some new doors.

Speaker 3 (00:44:37):

Dan Blake and Dusty really, when they joined the band, it actually, the band sound changed. Dan's obviously a huge contributor musically, and Dusty has riffs and Blakes drumming, obviously, whatever. It just kind of came together, I think, even though I'm a huge fan of the old stuff also, but in terms of a style of music or whatever, that appeals to even more people. I think when the guys all came together, there was some sort of magic combination that happened on Alaska that's been carried forth and developed more so over the years. When

Speaker 2 (00:45:15):

You were sitting there working on it, could you feel that it was going to kind turn into a big thing?

Speaker 4 (00:45:20):

No way. It's like that every time. I mean, people have been asking recently, we just got nominated for our first Grammy or whatever, which is really cool. But they asked what we've done different or what was our approach going into it. I mean, we're just writing every time. We're trying to just satisfy ourselves. And I think that's why Jamie said from day one when the guys came in and he asked him, why are you playing this style of music? It's just what they wanted to play. And we've progressed as a band and we've moved and moved and moved, and a lot of that is just because it's, our personal tastes have changed over time.

(00:46:00):

We've just grown in what we're about and what we're trying to accomplish musically. There was a period for sure where we were trying to fit as many notes in as possible, and now we're trying to just write tunes and whatever makes us happy. At that time too, I mean, we wrote that record Alaska in Blake's old bedroom at his parents' house. Just all the amps on. It was so loud and you were having to explain a complicated section to everyone. I mean, it was tough. And I mean, there's definitely moments of that that were definitely frustrating. All these new personalities coming together. All of a sudden you had two new musical voices coming in, contributing big chunks of music, which was exciting and cool, I know for Tommy and Paul, but as far as getting, what are we doing? And then when we did Colors, it all smoothed out. We'd been on the road for two and a half years, and all of a sudden we came in and it just happened. And for me, that's really when the musical awakening happened was with colors. But we definitely set the groundwork for it with Alaska.

Speaker 2 (00:47:12):

So Jamie, as far as you're concerned as a producer, how do you navigate a situation on Alaska where you have the direction of a band that has already been set and which is good, they were just fine without the new guys, but the new guys come in and it's even better, but nothing just integrates seamlessly right away. Like Dan just said, there's a challenge to it. How do you navigate that as a producer and in this case specifically?

Speaker 3 (00:47:48):

Well, in this case, like I said, luckily even Dan talks about there was some difficulties or whatever with Alaska maybe creating a record. But when they came in the studio, everything was worked out as far as I'm concerned. There were more issues on my side with that, a record than with the band. We actually track the drums. We tracked the drums at the Fidel Auditorium, and we let the house guy, a fantastic guy and producer named Mitch Easter.

Speaker 2 (00:48:16):

The fuck is the Fidel Auditorium?

Speaker 3 (00:48:19):

It's a rad studio in here in Kernersville, North Carolina.

Speaker 2 (00:48:22):

I wasn't sure if it was a place where Gladiators fight or something. They could.

Speaker 3 (00:48:28):

They could in high Fidelity, they could. Okay,

Speaker 6 (00:48:31):

Yes,

Speaker 3 (00:48:33):

No, but yeah, it's amazing room or whatever. But we tracked the drums there. We were going to take the record up a notch. It was the first record I'd done for them for Victory Records specifically. And so we wanted to track the drums there. So we booked the three days, tracked all the drums, but I didn't know a lot about his studio or the gear. He has a lot of vintage gear and all vintage mics. At the time, he had no industry standard mics. He didn't even have an SM 57, which was,

Speaker 2 (00:49:03):

Oh, love those places.

Speaker 3 (00:49:05):

So I go in there and I'm like, I don't know what any of these mics do. So I just let him choose the mics for the drums. And so we proceeded to record the whole record. I get the files to my place and realize that the high hat is louder in the stair mic. Then the snare is because he used a tube condenser on the snare, which is a huge no-no for metal. Now looking back, I was like, I just didn't pay attention. I just trusted him. And

Speaker 2 (00:49:31):

I've been in those scenarios before.

Speaker 3 (00:49:34):

Oh, I bet it was sickening. I was like, I got to tell Blake, we got to retract the drums. So we had to retrack all the drums at my place for that record or whatever because of that. And it was a failure on my part in a way, even though I'm not going to take all the blame really, but

Speaker 2 (00:49:53):

Okay, so this is interesting to me though, because we've all made those types of mistakes as producers we're like, something gets fucked. You got to redo everything, or you didn't record the rooms on five songs, you got to redo them. Something like that happens. And I've only heard of one person getting fired in a situation like that, but when it's happening, it's fucking traumatic. It's so scary. It's the worst. But how did you handle it in order to keep it cool?

Speaker 3 (00:50:28):

I don't know. I was like, I've got to tell him. And luckily, like I said, we were all long time friends. I recorded Blake since he's 15 years old in his previous projects, glass Casket. And before,

Speaker 4 (00:50:42):

You have to remember, at that time, me and Blake and Dusty were all 20 years old. So I mean, we were all excited. Blake was bummed, but if I remember, Blake might attract those drums in a day when he had to redo 'em. He might've just done

Speaker 3 (00:50:57):

So wasn't the end of the world. Okay. Yeah, it worked out for the best. The performance was even better. He was in the big studio and he was

Speaker 4 (00:51:05):

Probably pissed. Yeah,

Speaker 3 (00:51:06):

Yeah. Freaked out or whatever. He probably came in and gave him some extra juice for those double bass blasts and stuff. But it was one of those things, it's like we were debating him. It's like it's either we go with straight triggers or whatever on the drums or with the bt, bam, it's always been high integrity. Let's keep this stuff as real and natural as possible, and Blake's an amazing drummer, so we can do that. And so it's either like, let's, either we've got to rerecord it or we're got to have to sample samples for the snare. And that was the debate, the discussion. And of course he chose to, let's just retrack it, and he did it quickly, and luckily it was just a minor speed bump and we got over that and definitely a learning experience there. And then we learned even more when we got up to Boston and mixed the record. That was an interesting experience as well.

Speaker 4 (00:52:01):

It was

Speaker 3 (00:52:02):

How so?

Speaker 2 (00:52:03):

Sounds like it's going to be an interesting story.

Speaker 3 (00:52:05):

Well, yeah. Like I said, there again, we got another amazing producer engineer guy who just does it his way.

Speaker 4 (00:52:12):

It was so weird. We were mixing in the room, he'd be doing his thing all day. We'd be off in the other room just goofing off, and then he'd be like, okay, come in. And he would play us this song so loud, it would just be blaring at us. And you'd be like, yeah, I guess it's good. I don't know. For us, that was the only time we did that, and that was weird.

Speaker 2 (00:52:36):

That's supposed to trick bands into liking it. That's funny. So that didn't work on you guys?

Speaker 3 (00:52:42):

Well, he was old school. His version of Metal in his mind is Motorhead and stuff like that. And the guys were like, yeah, we want to metal. At that time, we're talking about more modern metal, not fake productions, but cleaner, maybe kill Switch, engaged type production or something.

(00:52:59):

And that's what we had gone for with drum sounds and guitar tones and things. But of course, I recorded DI's at the time and stuff, and he proceeded just to throw all our guitar sounds out and Reamp with an old JP Marshall cool stuff, and it got good sounds or whatever, but it wasn't what we were going for. It wasn't what the band asked for and what I went for when I did the record. And yeah, he literally just wouldn't, I remember Blake saying, Hey, man, can I get a little more high end on my snare drum? And he turned around and seriously said, fuck you to Blake. Wow. Damn. His mentality is like, I'm hired to mix the record. I'm going to mix the record. Don't tell me what to, and it is just insanity to me. I was like, I remember I left early.

Speaker 2 (00:53:42):

There's a line between not letting someone fuck up the mix versus just being an asshole.

Speaker 3 (00:53:51):

I mean, he was upset. I think the fact that it's like we had to track at my parents' space, we didn't track any drum rooms. And instead of using one of his lexicon or even tied environment simulation units, he's proceeded to waste a whole day and a half building a pseudo PA in the live room with basic guitar rigs to emulate this weird drum room thing. And then he put a speaker on a snare drum trying to get more snares out. He did a whole bunch of weird experimental stuff, and honestly, in retrospect, wasted a lot of time. And of course it did. Yeah, I mean, I understand what he was trying to do. He was just trying to get it to where he was used to it. I think he had actually recorded and mixed the Silent Circus record, and it actually didn't sound bad to me after it was mastered and all that stuff.

(00:54:44):

And I think he was upset about not recording and mixing Alaska. It seemed like he had a chip on his shoulder from day one. He just didn't like the fact that I was there. And I was, I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but that's just the vibe I got. And I don't know, he didn't pull it through exactly the way anybody wanted. And at that time, he was mixing on analog console, Neve console with a bunch of analog gear. So it wasn't like the current situation where you can tweak over time. And it was literally, once we leave here, this is it. Everything's to zero and just be happy with it. And that's what the record that exists now is where it was left from that trip in Boston from

Speaker 2 (00:55:30):

Here on out. When people ask for q and a sessions about the best way to deal with client notes and client suggestions, and there's going to be like two words. Fuck you. Just say that.

Speaker 3 (00:55:46):

If you want to win them over. Oh, I've wanted to say that before. I've had people be like, Hey, we want our record to sound like this, and I totally make it sound like that. And then they come in, they're like, actually, I just heard this new record. I want it to sound like this. It's just like, fuck you. No, I just spent 15 hours making it sound like you wanted it to sound the first day you were here.

Speaker 4 (00:56:06):

That's insane.

Speaker 3 (00:56:07):

I mean, I don't mind did it. Of course. I never say that. I'm like, yes, sir, I'll do it.

Speaker 2 (00:56:12):

Well, that's the thing is you would never say that. That's the

Speaker 3 (00:56:15):

Yeah, I mean, it's very funny. You might feel it. It kind of makes him kick ass. Really. I definitely respect him.

Speaker 4 (00:56:21):

Yeah. One of my favorite parts of that Boston trip was one of the nights, one of the first nights we got Chinese food and Jamie either hadn't had Chinese or was just real familiar and was like, oh, what should I get? And someone was like, I get sweet and sour chicken and that'll be safe. And they put the sauce on the side and he's like, okay. And it comes and he takes one look at the sauce and he opens the fridge and gets out some ketchup. Wow. Dude, that with Southern

Speaker 3 (00:56:47):

Redneck, it was awesome. I literally had never eaten Chinese food. Amazing.

Speaker 4 (00:56:52):

I love it. It was great.

Speaker 3 (00:56:53):

So I was like, I'll just put some ketchup on this.

Speaker 4 (00:56:56):

Yeah,

Speaker 3 (00:56:57):

Roll out straight red. Everybody.

Speaker 2 (00:57:00):

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Speaker 4 (00:59:22):

Indiana Man.

Speaker 2 (00:59:23):

Yeah, seriously, Indiana

Speaker 4 (00:59:24):

Not a hotspot for sushi. That's great.

Speaker 2 (00:59:29):

Alright, so you guys finish up the record. Sounds like it was kind of had a bunch of challenges and interesting situations, but the record crushes, I mean, I know that the band grew a ton from that. And then what?

Speaker 4 (00:59:45):

Well then we came to do, well, I guess we did the covers record together, and that was the last one we did in 2006. That was the last one we did at your parents' house. And when we did Colors, you had just moved into this house and it was the first you had just built this vocal booth that I'm in right now. Sweating my ass off. Oh

Speaker 2 (01:00:05):

Yeah, sorry about that.

Speaker 4 (01:00:06):

No, it's okay.

Speaker 2 (01:00:07):

For good.

Speaker 4 (01:00:07):

And then so Colors was the first thing that you had done here and it felt appropriate, I think. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:00:15):

Appropriate as in new reality for the band

Speaker 4 (01:00:18):

For

Speaker 2 (01:00:19):

Everyone. New reality for Jamie sort of thing. Absolutely. Everybody has leveled up. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:00:23):

Yeah, I had upgraded my gear in between every record. I try to take things up another level as far as what I'm doing gear wise and knowledge wise. So I had to upgraded the gear. I had upgraded to space and obviously their new material was next level and was, I mean, a lot of this stuff, I mean I really feel like there's a lot of work that went into it on everybody's part or whatever, but it just all came together almost magically. I mean, when I recorded BT band in 2000, I remember doing a sound for prayer for cleansing at a local venue. There's like 35 people. I wouldn't have never thought, this is the biggest band I'm ever going to work with. And even up through Alaska, the Btba guys were already pretty much the biggest band I'd worked with, but I never realized they would be the world dominant figure that they are now. But at the same time, it's like I really didn't care or really didn't think about it. I just knew I was a fan and I don't like the stuff. But still,

Speaker 2 (01:01:18):

Man, it must have been cool. I've always thought that one of the coolest things you can do with friends is do something successful together and both be able to both share that experience of conquering something. That's always been one of my goals is to, obviously I have professional goals of where I'd like to be and go and all that, but one of the goals along with that is to do it with friends because it means a lot more if you can share that with your compadres basically. But was there a sense of, fuck yeah, when you guys got in to do colors, we are all actually doing this.

Speaker 4 (01:01:59):

It felt like it was a creative explosion. It was like for us, we were just opening up our heads and it was all pouring out and we were just having a blast. We had so much fun doing that record and tracking it. I remember that period. We took quite a bit off to write it mean especially at that point in our career, we were really strapped for money, so it was really just rice and beans and creativity. We were just having a blast. The recording is definitely indicative of it. The studio videos and all the photos that we did and Chuck came over and shot photos that were in the layout. We had Adam from Fear Before come out and sing, and we just had so much fun. I mean, that's when we turned that corner for sure. I think

Speaker 3 (01:02:46):

We all learned a lot when we did the covers record about more commercialized music in terms of how layered it was and things like that. When we were trying to, the covers records really quick. I mean it was like 70 minutes. We had two weeks to record mix and master everything, and the guys were largely learning and on the spot and as far as all the layers and things, and we applied a lot of that to Colors for the first time with all the extra layering and the fun stuff, percussion and more keys and the extra guitar layers, things of that nature, whatever. And that was a lot of fun because it was like the first time and it gave the record a slicker, more professional, more worldly feel or something.

Speaker 4 (01:03:29):

Yeah, we had fucking dig do on it.

Speaker 3 (01:03:32):

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, there were monkeys on that record, by the way. Do you remember what song?

Speaker 4 (01:03:43):

Informal Gluttony,

Speaker 2 (01:03:46):

What album has the Horse Horse? Amazing.

Speaker 4 (01:03:48):

That's the next one. That was the Great Misdirect Disease. Injury Madness. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:03:54):

Yeah. So it sounds like Colors was kind of a labor of love sort of situation and real good vibes throughout. It reminds me a little bit of when I've heard of Mike Tyson talking about the Peak, not saying that this was your peak or anything, but he was talking about the peak of his career and saying that the rest of the world thought that he was super scary. Obviously he was, but while he was knocking people out, it was just a creative explosion and he was just loving life. It was all happiness and love

Speaker 6 (01:04:36):

For

Speaker 2 (01:04:36):

Him the whole time. He was so locked in to what he was doing and it was so who he was was fulfilling him himself. So it sounds to me like you guys were kind of entering that sort of headspace from what you're saying.

Speaker 3 (01:04:52):

Yeah,

Speaker 4 (01:04:52):

Definitely.

Speaker 3 (01:04:52):

I would say for me too. Yeah. I just had bought my own place and had met my wife and everything was positive at that moment or whatever. I felt like my self education of audio engineering was kind of starting to come together at that point. I was finally getting it and I had some better gear and better grasp or whatever.

Speaker 2 (01:05:14):

The vision of a sound that you have in your head was starting to actually come out the speakers?

Speaker 3 (01:05:20):

Yeah, exactly. Or being able to get the sounds that I had heard other

(01:05:25):

Engineers get and stuff like that. And just to get a professional sounding vibe or whatever that I always wanted to have for the band. Every time the band has tried to record with other people and I'd always be stoked. I'm like, because I want to see the band take everything to the next level. And a couple of times it kind of didn't work out and it was kind of upsetting to me. I want to hear it. Like I said, I'm a fan and I want to hear this stuff sound kick ass, and so if these other guys can't do it, it's like here again, I'm back. I have to figure out how to make this sound kick ass or whatever. It relies on me or whatever, and I felt like I got a little closer or whatever, getting a little closer to what I want for the band and for myself or whatever.

Speaker 4 (01:06:16):

And I think that's constantly changing because our music's constantly changing and we're always throwing new stuff at you, different reference points and I mean just there's a lot going on within the compositions.

Speaker 3 (01:06:28):

All our taste and music and even production styles and values have changed and it's different for, like I said, the problem with me in production is like I enjoy the slick produce stuff. I enjoy the raw if it's appropriate for the music and for the band or for the project. Why is that a problem? Well, because a lot of producers, I think more successful producers kind of have a sound it seems like. I think that's a myth.

Speaker 2 (01:06:54):

The reason I think that's a myth is if you look at Andy, just think about Andy Snake for instance, because people said that about him a lot and it was based off of two Kill Switch records that kind of had a similar sort of thing to them. And I kind of get what they were saying, but if you actually ab all the stuff from where he was the man,

Speaker 5 (01:07:21):

He

Speaker 2 (01:07:21):

Still is the man, but I mean the man that did all the records, if you kill switch to Testament to Nevermore, to all the bands he did back then, they all sound totally different. And the same with my partner Joey Sturgis. He gets accused of that a lot, but then if you actually listen to his records, they're all bands that I don't listen to very much, but I actually did this and we checked them out back to back to back and I was like, these sound nothing alike.

Speaker 3 (01:07:49):

Yeah, I think in terms of sound, but I'm thinking even just deeper in terms of, hey, are the drums quantized and sample blended and all this stuff, or is everything completely loose and natural, like 70 style even that diverse? And I enjoy both. Most producers do a more slick modern type thing or most producers do like the old school and I kind of always straddled the fence and I think it kind of works for BT Band. They have some moments to benefit from that metal in your face, everything clear, crisp, whatever. But then they have these other moments where the jazz moments or the big band moments where you need to have the knowledge or at least need to want to find out how to get those old school sounds and things for the specific parts and stuff. And I think it's a unique thing that it's like they obviously bring a lot of different styles to the table and obviously I think for this particular project or whatever, it's helped that I enjoy a lot of different styles and productions and things like that. So Dan,

Speaker 2 (01:08:52):

What do you think was the biggest challenge on Colors? It sounds to me like you guys both think that it was a very positive experience, but was there anything that you remember being, I remember you said earlier that going to Boston was very interesting, but sounds like there weren't those types of things going on, but for you as a musician or even as a band or in the production, whatever, what was the biggest challenge on colors? There had to be something

Speaker 4 (01:09:21):

As far as recording. I mean, that was the first time we adopted doing the one song at a time thing for all the rhythm stuff. My only memories of Colors are really just positive because the album was kind of birthed out of this negative period doing Oz Fest this horrible summer, and it fueled us creatively. We really, I think felt like we

Speaker 2 (01:09:48):

Ah, okay,

Speaker 4 (01:09:50):

We were going to do our own thing. We were going to really separate ourselves. And it's hard to think of a negative mean. It was smooth sailing. I remember the mixes going real smooth and Tony at Victory telling us it was going to be our dark side of the moon and we were like, yeah, that's bullshit, but thanks.

Speaker 2 (01:10:10):

So if I'm understanding correctly, then it seems like Alaska making, it was one of those things where you really have to will it into being, because it's not going to just present itself. You had to will it the fuck into being and then you had to do, I've done Oz Fest, man, I know how hard of a tour that is. And so you had to do a bunch of real challenging, grinding touring to Level Up, but then basically kind of put hair on your chest as a band or something like you guys did level up from it and then you had all that momentum going from everything that you had done leading up is what it sounds like to me.

Speaker 4 (01:10:54):

And I think even really directly on the record, I think the last song White Walls, which pulls the whole album together and is kind of become this kind of monumental song for us was it's actually about our experience that summer and really just breaking out and doing that thing. And it just really pushed us creatively I think, I don't know, sometimes you need a little nudge, I guess. I don't know. We've had these moments in our career as well, not really in writing, but more in touring or these different experiences business wise where we really bond over negativity like negative stuff. And it's a great way to form group bonding over kind of complaining and making jokes about your situation. And we've had this longevity for so long. I think we're able to find the light in those moments, which is nice.

Speaker 2 (01:11:47):

I mean, if you can't find the light in those moments, there's no way you're going to make it through this industry. No. Oh

Speaker 3 (01:11:52):

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I think the Alaska record and as he mentioned maybe their touring and stuff, it feels like to me it kind of pushed him around a corner. It kind of made you turn a corner or made you turn into slightly different direction in everything.

Speaker 4 (01:12:10):

Yeah, if you look at our touring schedules just compared to those two records, whereas we were really touring with more, what would you say, like metal core kind of bands. Then Colors came out. We were touring with Dream Theater, we're touring with Masu Dillinger, mastodon it on. It kind of just opened us into a whole new world where we were really adopted as a progressive band for the first time, and that hasn't stopped really.

Speaker 2 (01:12:40):

Was that the tour that you did direct support for Dream Theater on that OBE was before you guys?

Speaker 4 (01:12:47):

No. Fuck no. No, we were second of four. OPEC was Trex.

Speaker 2 (01:12:54):

Oh no. Oh, you were second of four. Okay. Sorry. Yes. Okay. I remembered it differently. I was dating someone that was with OPEC back then, and so I actually tagged along. I never actually met you.

Speaker 4 (01:13:07):

Okay. What was her name? Aaron?

Speaker 2 (01:13:09):

Yeah,

Speaker 4 (01:13:10):

Aaron. How did I remember that? That's incredible.

Speaker 2 (01:13:13):

Just because you got a good memory. Yeah,

Speaker 4 (01:13:16):

I do not have a good memory.

Speaker 2 (01:13:16):

2008. Wow. I tagged along for five days or something. I was somewhat familiar with you guys. I didn't know all your stuff, but I was somewhat familiar and I watched you guys from side stage one of the nights or two of the nights and I was like, man, these guys are actually really good and they're a lot bigger than I realized. This is really cool. And I just thought it was very cool to see because it's really rare for bands in this genre to turn into something. It's just so rare. It's a very, very cool thing to see. But yeah, I remember that. So that was kind of, it's interesting to hear though from you what that time period represented for you guys. So that was kind of like when you were starting to really level into, I guess the big Boys or something play with the big bands and stuff,

Speaker 4 (01:14:14):

Really just people that we were actually listening to ourselves

(01:14:20):

That we were excited to meet. And thankfully, I mean, we had so many positive experiences. I mean the guys in Dream Theater have, I don't remember if it was the Automata or maybe Coma Ecliptic before it where Dusty just emailed John Petrucci about some pedal settings and he wrote right back with this real descriptive thing, and they've been really great to us over the years, and it's really nice. I think for us, we had the experience touring with some European metal bands that just wouldn't acknowledge you and this and that, and we totally expected that from Dream Theater and we looked up to them and that would've been what it was,

Speaker 2 (01:15:00):

And they certainly could act that way if they wanted

Speaker 4 (01:15:02):

To, but they were the ones who brought us on the tour. Mike. Mike was a fan at the time, and the crew was so nice to us. And that has shown us, I mean, we wouldn't have acted it any other way as time went on with bands opening for us, but I think that just showed us that a band could get to that point and still be normal cool guys who are just these great musicians.

Speaker 2 (01:15:27):

Do you feel like they kind felt like you guys were not exactly a younger version of themselves, but one of the few bands that was doing it right in I guess the tradition that they kind of were the kings of or something a me role almost?

Speaker 4 (01:15:46):

I think at that time, I mean, we didn't really have a blueprint for another band that was mixing the stuff that we really were. And we liked music like Dream Theater, but we liked Smashing Pumpkins, we liked all this stuff. And so in that regard, I think we did probably stick out, and that's probably a reason why Mike Portnoy or someone was into our band because he could have heard a bit of what they were doing or just the idea that they were about, which was this progressive idea, which through the nineties and the late nineties was definitely kind of a dirty word and it disappeared. And that was kind of the era of it just kind of coming back to the surface a little bit. So it's nice, and I think it's just about musician musicianship and musicality and stuff. It was just like that thing was kind of coming back. People having an interest in just seeing people play their asses off on stage, it is kind of cool.

Speaker 3 (01:16:48):

I remember Mike Portnoy saying in a magazine article that Bt Bam represents the new progressive movement in a way. So I think that's why he wanted to bring the guys on and maybe bringing BT Bam on with them on that tour kind of introduced them to a younger generation of potential Prague fans for Dream theater and then vice versa. So I think that's quite genius of Mike Portnoy.

Speaker 2 (01:17:13):

I actually was singing the same thing. It seemed like a good move for everybody to do that. So Jeremy, and so while this is happening, while they're starting to tour with all these awesome bands and really get out there and get solidified as one of the top progressive bands, was this translating in terms of how booked you were at the studio and I guess the quality of clients you were starting to attract?

Speaker 3 (01:17:42):

Oh yeah. BT bands always kind of been that way. When I first started, it was my band. We were kind of popular local and influencing other local bands to book Studio Time with me, including BT band. I guess they heard my band's record and things. But yeah, after that it's largely been a lot of my businesses from directly from BT band, a few of the other bands that I've recorded that have been somewhat successful and so forth. But yeah, the bigger BT Bam kits, the more bands come to me, the more bigger band. Obviously with the Contortionist guys being friends and fans of bt Bam, I think they're like, Hey, I guess they went on tour and Tommy talked to him, was like, Hey, why don't you try Jamie? And I think that's kind of how that happened. And the band four today, they had some success for a minute, and obviously they were BT BAM fans and just a lot of my work now is in the progressive realm, and I think that's directly related to VT Bam and their success and influencing the progressive community or whatever. I

Speaker 2 (01:18:48):

Mean, that's how it works. It seems like for a lot of producers is that they do have the band that they get known for and then they get a bunch of business that want to sound exactly like that one big band, but they also get a bunch of other bands that are just good bands who that production

Speaker 5 (01:19:08):

And

Speaker 2 (01:19:08):

Just want to go to the same guy who was able to create that. What percentage or ratio do you have of people who are just like, I want to sound exactly like that Btba record and just want to be btba versus bands that are just fans of what happened musically and production wise and just want the same level of care or whatnot?

Speaker 3 (01:19:33):

Yeah, I mean, luckily I don't think there's, well, I haven't had a lot of bands that want to sound exactly like BT band. I've had people like, Hey, we want our drums to sound like Blake's or our bass to sound like Dan's or certain elements or whatever. But usually there's maybe a guy in the band or an aspect that they want to sound similar. But yeah, I think it's a combination. I get a lot of, strangely, like I said, a lot of bands and they'll come to me and they'll be inspired by BT band, but I usually try to give people a speech when they come in to record. I usually try to tell 'em, I don't really like to try to copy anything. I'm a big fan of let's let the gear, your selection and gear and stuff. Let's let it sound the way it sounds and let's try to find your sound. And even if they do want to have sound like a certain band, I try to get an idea of what they dig to get it in the ballpark of something that they'll be happy with. But I try to sell everybody on the idea that originality is best and I truly believe that. I think emulation might get you so X far in the business, but ultimately for ultimately success, you have to be an exclusive product and it's best to just sound the way you sound. Totally agree.

Speaker 2 (01:20:50):

Sounds like colors is just a great time for everybody. What came next? What do you think was the next step and what was next for you guys in terms of your working relationship?

Speaker 3 (01:21:04):

It's all been smooth. I mean, as far as I can remember, his recordings with great misdirect and

Speaker 4 (01:21:11):

You have to think our songs are all, everything's so put together and we just come here and do it and we have fun and we cook out together here. We have meals with Jamie's family.

Speaker 3 (01:21:21):

Yeah, there's baseball in the back here.

Speaker 4 (01:21:24):

So the memories are only good. I mean, we don't have snags here. We have snags elsewhere, but not when we come to the basement.

Speaker 2 (01:21:32):

And those snags are the reason you keep coming back,

Speaker 4 (01:21:35):

Right?

Speaker 2 (01:21:35):

So we're part of it sounds like.

Speaker 4 (01:21:37):

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. We've always done our best records here. We've always done our best material here. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:21:44):

Do you mind if without throwing anyone under the bus, if we talk a little bit about those snags, there's a lot to be said for working with someone that gets you, and I want to give people a picture for what not getting you is without throwing anyone under the bus or anything. We don't need to name names.

Speaker 4 (01:22:05):

Well, yeah. So I mentioned how he had his chart out those songs. That's one thing. But I think there's this other idea of the problems in your personal life really spilling out into your professional workspace. Especially for a guy that we only knew for 10 days, 15 days, we weren't up there very long.

Speaker 2 (01:22:26):

That's a killer. I've seen that one

Speaker 4 (01:22:29):

Because we had just frustration on his end the number of times we would do something or we'd reach a point in a song and he would just put his head in his hands, why is this happening to me? Why am I doing this? And we're just sitting there, fuck,

Speaker 2 (01:22:44):

That's going to make you guys feel great.

Speaker 4 (01:22:46):

Jamie will tell you, I think we're, even the times that I think we're struggling in the studio, he's like, you have no idea if there's a solo where Paul has to do it 50 times or if I get stuck on some rhythm. Jamie's like, literally, you're fine, don't worry. And this guy made us feel like maybe we're being an inconvenience, maybe we suck. I don't know. I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:23:12):

How are you going to do your best work if that's how you feel?

Speaker 4 (01:23:15):

I know

Speaker 2 (01:23:15):

How are you going to be able to really go there artistically if you feel like your presence is pissing off the person you're supposed

Speaker 3 (01:23:24):

To be working with as a producer. And I'll tell all the up and coming producers out there. I mean, you can't do that to your clients. I don't think it's a good idea. And also I don't like it when other band members or other people involved with the project are in the same room and do that. Also. I see that all the time to where somebody's berating the vocalist while he is tracking vocals or trying to make him do certain things. And it's like I've learned that keeping things positive and light and keeping the energy good is ideal. Unless the guy's supposed to sound pissed off or have lyrical content or an aggressive performance where you do want to piss the guy off, then maybe it could work or whatever. But you have to do it as instrumentally. You have to do it when it's appropriate or whatever.

(01:24:16):

But yeah, I've seen it. It can't get frustrating for us producers when somebody can't nail something or whatever within a timely fashion, but it's not going to help anything if you get really negative with them about it or whatever. Usually I usually try to, either you give them the time or if we can't take the time, Hey, let's come back to this later when you're fresh, maybe rehearse some more things like that or whatever. And the vt bam, guys, we don't even have to speak about that. They get stuck on something. They're like, let's just come back to that. And we rework. I mean, Paul, we spent a whole day on that desert or song acoustic part. Literally he came back after lunch and just had to rewrite it, rework how he played it to get it down cleanly. And that's fine. That's how it should be. And it sounds great.

Speaker 6 (01:25:05):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:25:06):

One thing I'm curious about is that, so if your songs are all worked out in advance, 95% or 99%, whatever it is very worked out in advance to where you guys don't need someone to write your parts for you or any of that stuff. You're coming in very prepared, you guys, you just don't need that. But at the same time, I hear, Jamie, you're saying that you do try to push them to be their best selves, like the best version of the band possible. Where's the line first, I want to hear from both of you, Dan, where do you see the line and what is cool for a producer to come at you with? And then Jamie, where do you see the line between where you're just helping the band be their best selves versus you're trying to take over their shit and they don't need it?

Speaker 4 (01:26:03):

Well, I'm trying to think because over time I feel like I've learned when a take isn't good for me. I think we have good intuition. There's not a lot of time where we play something and then we look at Jamie like, eh, was that it? Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:26:18):

We're usually pretty in sync as far as our working relationship. We know if it needs to be done. Again, it's just like I don't even have to say it. Usually I say One more time,

Speaker 4 (01:26:27):

One more time,

Speaker 3 (01:26:28):

One

Speaker 4 (01:26:28):

More time.

Speaker 3 (01:26:29):

That always means do it again until it's right. But we usually both just know when it's the good take.

Speaker 4 (01:26:35):

And I feel like that's something that I've picked up over time.

Speaker 2 (01:26:39):

Obviously you guys don't need that much help. Is it just right, I guess it wears too much.

Speaker 4 (01:26:45):

It's probably different for every band, right?

Speaker 3 (01:26:48):

Yeah. Well, these guys to anything. Usually if I have an idea, I'll throw it on the table. One thing I've learned specifically with this band is just wait until everything's done to make judgment. I mean, honestly, Dan, there's been times that Dan plays this crazy counter melody baseline. I'm like, that doesn't even make sense to me, but it's because I haven't heard the key line yet. Dan writes Compositionally, it's not playing the guitar riff half the time. So it's like early in my career I'd have been like, that baseline's too busy. It's going to take away. That would be my initial instinct. And for most metal bands, that would be the case. It would probably actually end up being crew. But I've learned to just let the band do what they're doing, especially bands who seem like they have their stuff together and worked out, listen to the whole thing and then put ideas down.

(01:27:39):

A lot of times, any concerns I had early in the project, they resolve themselves. Once I hear the full picture, either I learn to like it or I realize that my initial instinct was wrong or off base or something of that nature, whatever. So I think in the case with these guys, like I said, our preferences and our instincts and intuitions are so in sync after all these years of working. I just think we all head in the same directions anyway. I might have an idea for a harmony or something, whatever, and it's like, yeah, that would be cool.

Speaker 4 (01:28:15):

I think each member has kind of a different relationship, and Jamie's got all these different skill sets. I mean, he's a drummer first and foremost, but he's got such a great sense of pitch and melody and I mean he helps sometimes in shaping guitar solos and finishing out phrases of, because even though our compositions are totally put together, there are sometimes parts where a guitar solo isn't written until he gets to the studio, or I know if Tommy talked about his relationship with Jamie, I mean that's a whole different beast. And there's times where Tommy suffers sometimes from being not really confident in himself and we're like, dude, you're great and everything that you write is awesome. And I know it's not usually till he's in this hot box that I'm in right now with Jamie that he really feels comfortable and they get their result.

Speaker 3 (01:29:08):

Yeah, that is interesting. You're bringing it up. I really do the dynamic, and this is true for anybody at work, I kind of fill out the individual and how we work together is different for different people. Like with you and Paul, you're really methodical. You come in prepared, everything's pretty much note for note worked out or whatever. It's just about it getting a good take. With Dusty, he does a lot of more improv, loose theme based type stuff, and it's like my job with him is to let him jam on the thing and try to help him find the good moments and a lot of his lead work or whatever. So there's a pretty different dynamic in terms of when we're working together to track and come up with ideas and note ideas would be less valuable with Dan or Paul because they have the notes already chosen.

(01:29:54):

It is made them more my opinion on maybe a tone or a tape, whether it's good or not. But with Dusty, I'd be like, Hey, I like that theme that went da or whatever and do that more and stuff like that. So we vibe off each other and he sees something that I'm digging on and it makes him dig it more and then eventually comes together. And same thing happens with vocals. Tommy will have the basic ideas and I help him find harmonies here and there and things like that or whatever. But it's usually just my role in this band in terms of recommendations is just icing type stuff, stuff maybe in a production effect or harmony or let's put a horse here or let's put a trumpet over this.

Speaker 6 (01:30:38):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:30:39):

So it sounds though that also who you're working with, like you said, down to the individual band members, you know what they need, what one guy needs to be at his best is different than what somebody else needs.

Speaker 4 (01:30:52):

Totally,

Speaker 2 (01:30:53):

Absolutely. And you're aware of those things.

Speaker 4 (01:30:55):

And if I remember, Tommy didn't even do a demo of Voice of Trespass on the new record until he came to the studio. He just wanted to feel it out in here with you. And that's like he's doing a real wild Cab Callaway kind of thing. And I think he was just like, I'm just going to feel it out in there with Jamie. And it really turned out amazing,

Speaker 3 (01:31:17):

Something fresh for him. Everybody. And I try to do that, and I recommend that for anybody who listens to this is just try to feel out the individual, see do what's going to be best for them, make them comfortable. And I've noticed there's some performers, I don't think any of the guys in this band are this way, but some people like to have kind of an audience in the studio

(01:31:39):

Vocalists and stuff, they feed off that energy, or drummer wants to show off. You bring a hot chicken in the studio and their whole energy chain. I'm serious, it's ridiculous. But for me, it would totally distract me. And I think for the bt bam guys, it probably would also. But there's some people who you put a female in the room and then the vocalist, his delivery is awesome all of a sudden when he was boring before. So different people, you just got to kind of fill 'em out and you see what makes each individual ticks. I think having an intuition or knowledge about psychology is definitely, definitely beneficial. Totally agree.

Speaker 2 (01:32:18):

So hey, we've been talking for a good little while now, so I don't want to take up all of your day and night and next month, but we have a few questions here from some of our listeners that I'd to get into. And so I figure we'll just do that and then I will let you guys go. So here's one from Charlie Monroe and he's got a question for each of you. So we'll start with a question for Dan and he says, this will be awesome. Dan is probably my favorite bassist. So hi Dan. You have a very unique playing style and your note choice is extremely creative. You very rarely play the same thing as the guitarist and in bt bam, I find that I'm drawn to the bass almost like a lead instrument. Do you have any tips on how you approach writing this kind of material? Do you work with the guitarist to create riffs and baselines that compliment each other or do you write some of the bass parts first?

Speaker 4 (01:33:14):

Yeah, I guess, like I said earlier, I generally save writing my bass stuff to the end because I'm working compositionally, I'm writing keyboard on guitar and this and that, and I like for the bass, the bass. I would say over time my approach has changed a little bit. Now our compositions are more, they feel like we stay within the song a lot more. So there could be some crazy stuff that happens, but it could just be a crazy song or we've got a whole song on the record, the Voice of Trespass, like I talked about, it's this big bombastic big band thing, and we kind of carry that vibe out throughout the song. Whereas before that could maybe be a 22nd section of this song that was maybe on colors. We maybe operated like that before. So as a bass player that allows me to really find the pocket with Blake, sit in it after I've already worked on this composition with the guys for months or whatever and approach it like that.

(01:34:23):

And of course, whatever you're putting in your head, you talk about the bass being its own layer. I got that idea from Tony Levin and King Crimson, which is one of my all time favorite bands, but also just a band that I heard when I was in college and it was a very instrumental time. There's so much going on and all these poly rhythms and counter rhythms and then, oh yeah, by the way, there's a bass baseline holding it all together. And that was just huge for me. And as a bassist, as any sort of musician, I think as a bassist, as a drummer guitarist, if you're in a progressive band, you have to be pretty comfortable with a lot of different styles. Heard Blake say it. I mean there's times we throw these shuffles at him or bluegrass thing, whatever and salsa Latin thing, and he kind of like is hip to all these different styles, not just playing just metal or just a rock thing.

Speaker 2 (01:35:20):

Thank you. Alright, and this question is for Jamie and hey Jamie, how do you approach mixing or producing a bassist like Dan where they're usually playing very different things to the guitars plus the fact that he doesn't use a pick?

Speaker 3 (01:35:34):

Well, in Dan's case, I learned early on you take his rig and turn it up. No, luckily Dan, like I said, he came in, he uses an old sun head, or I guess he's using the Fender version now, but it, it's a great classic all tube head. It's got a lot of fat mids. Dan doesn't do the whole silly mid cut thing and the fact he plays finger style, this Base Amp has a natural built in compression due to the tubes and all that and has a little bit of drive to it. And Dan often uses overdrive and stuff in front of the amp as well or whatever, but it gives it a nice even dynamic sound or whatever. And of course he also plays dynamically if it's supposed to be loud, he plays loud, it's supposed to be quiet, he plays quiet. So it makes it really easy for me. So just a little bit of compression on my end and just turn it up. I mean, that's literally all you have to do with Dan's parts. His base needs to be pronounced in the mix for BT Bam, I think. And just because it is doing interesting things and it is important to the overall orchestration of the stuff, it's not just to fill out the low end and most of it. So yeah, it's basically as simple as that. It's just turn it up where it needs to be turned up and that's basically it.

Speaker 2 (01:36:56):

Got it. So Jamie, this question is from James Lin and he says, Jamie first, I doubt you'll remember me, one of the group of New York Swift fans and we chilled in Jersey and did donuts in your van behind the venue while listening to Ms. Sugar. Yes, absolutely.

Speaker 3 (01:37:18):

Remember that.

Speaker 2 (01:37:18):

How long do you spend on getting guitar tones and if there's anything, you usually do the same because the guitar tones on everything. I've heard you engineer and mix sound phenomenal.

Speaker 3 (01:37:28):

Oh yeah. I pretty much do a lot of things the same these days, but it depends on what the client wants and what they're going for. A lot of times, one thing I do the same is I try to use the guitar rig that the client chooses, whether they bring in one or something else, even for something I'm not familiar with, I try to learn it. There's a lot of producer engineer guys who it's like they're using the same preset on all the records and that bothers me. The bands I used to listen to when I grew up were Panero Slayer and Metallica and Mega Death and all these thrash. They all had their similar qualities to their tones, but they're all different and identifiable. So I try to let the bands have that as well. The modern bands be different and identifiable. So that's one consistency, but almost always for metal guitar sound I'm thinking that's probably what he's talking about.

(01:38:15):

He always put some sort of a tube screamer type device in front of the amp. That's kind of a standard type of thing. Pickup selection appropriate for the style is important. As everybody knows, I'm still a big fan of a vintage 30, a nice worn in Brit Vintage 30 still seems to win almost always with me, which is another standard. But as far as guitar amps and stuff, I mean obviously I've still got Dusty's old 51 50 that I had voodoo amps in New York modify, and it's still one of the best sounding amps I've got for metal, and I use that, man, you can't go wrong with those. They struck gold when they did that for metal. It's got this huge open mid-range thing that nothing else has, and I love the new 51, 53. It's definitely, it's definitely awesome also, but something about that, the original 51 50, it's just a huge gnarly sounding amp. I'm still a big Marshall fan. Nobody likes Marshalls anymore, but I still like Marshalls personally, so I try to use a Marshall when I can. But yeah, I mean I'm really open-minded. Like I said, just like with productions, I like a lot of different guitar tones. I like the seventies tones. I like the Tommy Solo record or whatever we had. We'd just hook up a distortion pedal straight to the frigging computer or whatever and get that nine inch nails just chainsaw guitar tone now. I love it.

(01:39:48):

It's not something you would use on a whole album or anything these days, but it's fun. It's just a different color. That's kind of how I approach guitar tones.

Speaker 4 (01:39:58):

Well, I think a big thing too is we take all this time on the arrangements. You have to take the time in the studio as well. You can't just fly through the process of finding your sounds and be like, okay, we're good. Let's go. We give ourselves a whole day where we're in here just

Speaker 3 (01:40:14):

For tones,

Speaker 4 (01:40:15):

Just hearing different stuff. And we have so many different sounds as the record goes on. We don't lock in with just one thing, but we really try to listen to so many different combinations.

Speaker 3 (01:40:26):

Yeah, you guys have probably 2030 guitar sounds on one album. Just different pickups, different amp.

Speaker 4 (01:40:34):

You have to take the time though, I would think as a producer too, you can't just shrug it off and just blast through it and be like, okay, cool, there's your amp, let's go.

Speaker 3 (01:40:44):

Yeah, yeah. There's no one fits all with this style of music for sure. Well, I think that's

Speaker 2 (01:40:51):

Part of it too, is if you have put the time in for long enough, if you put the time in enough times and work with good people too. So in a situation where good tones are even a possibility, for instance, if you work with shitty guitar players for 10 years, you might have 10 years worths of experience on guitar, but recording, but you're not going to get good tones because it's not possible. So there needs to be some, I feel like there need to be some conditions that line up consistently in order for it to be possible. So you need to be working with the right people. Obviously you need to have the right gear and all that stuff, but then beyond that, you just need to put in the time enough times to where your ears and your brain start to understand what it is you're listening to and for.

Speaker 3 (01:41:46):

Oh yeah, exactly. You can't shortcut that. No, I think for the producers out there, the up and comings try to be open-minded with the clients. A lot of times I've learned so much from the clients from bt Bam and the guys that come in, they've learned something or they know something about some gear that I've never even heard of and I've learned. Like I said, we called John Petrus on the phone or whatever and he told us stuff and I'm like, awesome, we're going to do that. He knows he gets great tone. So being open-minded and hearing other people out and just trying different things, it could take extra time to do it, but it's always worth it in time or whatever. You'll be able to get quicker tones and specific tones faster as people request them, Hey, I want it to sound like this and I can listen to a record now and almost nail what amp and pickup combination they used, but it is taken decades to do that.

Speaker 2 (01:42:42):

But being at that point where you can just understand what you're hearing, that probably is a huge part of why you're comfortable being open-minded on records you're working with and being like, look, there's like, yeah, I like finish thirties, but I'm open to whatever fits the client. Because the thing is you do know what you're listening for

Speaker 5 (01:43:05):

And

Speaker 2 (01:43:05):

You have had those years of working it all out, so it's not like you got good at doing 51 50 tones and then if someone brings in something else that you never used before, you're fucked. It's not like that. You understand what you're hearing as far as guitars go. Exactly. Yeah. It bums me out sometimes to tell people that you just got to put in the time, because sometimes I feel like it sounds like a cop out answer.

Speaker 5 (01:43:35):

Just

Speaker 2 (01:43:35):

Use your ears, bro. But it's

Speaker 3 (01:43:37):

True, and I don't feel like I've mastered it. I've been doing this for 20 years and I still don't feel like I'm getting the tones I want. And the tone I used to think was awesome in 2000, it sounds terrible to me now, so that happens as well. You'll master a certain sound, like the new metal sound. Back in the day I was a master of that and that's useless now. So that kind of thing happens. So yeah, it's just you got to put in the time or whatever.

Speaker 2 (01:44:08):

I think part of getting good at something is never feeling like you're good at something.

Speaker 3 (01:44:13):

Yeah, it just pushes you.

Speaker 2 (01:44:15):

Yeah. The moment you get complacent, you stop getting better.

Speaker 5 (01:44:18):

Yep.

Speaker 2 (01:44:19):

Same reason that I remember when I found out that Jeff Loomis at 40 years old was still taking guitar lessons. It was like, okay, you wouldn't think that he needs lessons, but it makes sense. That's why he's so good is he thinks he needs lessons.

Speaker 4 (01:44:34):

If you're involved in the arts, it shouldn't stop ever. It's the personal journey towards never being satisfied, never finding your thing and being like, okay, cool. This is what I'm just going to ride with for the rest of my life. I've peaked at this point. You can't do that. It's a constant journey.

Speaker 3 (01:44:54):

Yeah, that's death. Yeah, you reach a point, like I said, I found, the more I've learned about the normal stuff and the standards now I want find myself wanting to innovate and maybe try to come up with something else like a new guitar sound or new bass sound, new drum sound that nobody's ever done a new way of doing stuff. I find myself wanting to do that, and it could be successful, it could be a disaster, but I think that's to further the whole craft for yourself and for everybody else. I mean, that's what you got to do. You got to get to that point.

Speaker 2 (01:45:27):

Absolutely. Okay, so this question is for Dan. Dan, this is from Kiko Picasso, and he's saying, Dan, how did Orbs come about? It seems like such a random lineup.

Speaker 4 (01:45:40):

So that's a band that I started in 2009 or 2010, and it was just with just a couple friends. I've had so many groups on the side of Between the Berry to me, I was just telling Jamie how I've just been writing for a new one that I just started, and it's part of the joy of being a touring professional musician is meeting other people who you feel like you jive with and you can share creative interest with because that there's a level of professionalism if you're meeting them on tour that they want to do this and it's what they're all about. So that question's already out the window.

Speaker 2 (01:46:22):

They've been vetted.

Speaker 4 (01:46:23):

Exactly. And that band I was playing guitar in and Adam Fisher, the singer I toured, we toured with a BT Bam and Fear before the March of Flames, and he sang on colors. I think he's still the only guest singer that we've ever had on a record, if I can remember. Does that sound right?

(01:46:42):

And that was just such a fun group. Our keyboardist Ashley was like a classically trained pianist, and we just all had this shared interest of loving weird rock music and space rock and progressive rock, and we just had a lot of fun, wrote some wild stuff, and we came and we did that with Jamie. I mean, for as many adventures as between the Bair and Me takes anytime one of us comes, if Tommy comes to do a solo record with Jamie, or I've come with orbs, I've come with trio scapes. I mean, when we came in here with bass saxophone and drums, we didn't, didn't know what our band sounded like. We had played live, but we didn't have a grasp of what it was, and we just discovered it at the same time. Jamie was discovering it. And so yeah, I always come in with these wild new things with people from all over the world, really with Jamie, and we figure out what the band is and what the sound is together. It's kind of fun.

Speaker 2 (01:47:44):

Alright, here's a question from Sean Michael George, and speaking of sound and finding your sound, Sean Michael George asks, and this is for both Dan and Jamie, how do you keep your sound consistent album to album without sounding stale? And for Jamie, that's specifically because you seem to have a very thorough formula that you follow mix to mix, yet you never sound stale. And same with Dan, it's because you always go to new places, but you still sound like you. So how do you keep that consistency without sounding stale? I guess that's the 18 million question.

Speaker 4 (01:48:25):

Yeah. Oh, I guess, well, I don't know. I mean, our music is always evolving, and I've talked about that and why that's important as an artistic journey to do. But I'm using generally the same bass that I've had since I was 16 and playing through the same setup that I've had my whole adult life in some form or another. And I guess the hands are a part of it for me. I mean, I think when you're a bassist, especially playing with your fingers that you have a tone that's kind of yours in a way that's different. And I remember that from giving lessons when I was in college, seeing the way a different person attacks their base and does it in such a specific way. And if anyone picks up my bases, I kind of have famously high action, really high action. And it's just, I don't know if it's just what I got used to when I was in college over time playing upright bass. I have no idea, but it's what works with my hands. And anytime I put it in the hands of someone else, a very accomplished bass player, whatever, they're like, oh my God, this is weird. But if I pick up their base where the strings are resting right on the fretboard, if I try to dig in and play, it's just only buzz. So I don't know

Speaker 3 (01:49:42):

As far as different sounds. Like I said, Dan, we've used a thumb pick, I think on the Oranges record. Yeah, that's right. We experiment with different types of picks and approaches in terms of, like I said, his amp, his rig stays the same, but Dan uses a lot of pedals. You'll change that up from project to project and record to record. You'll add a new synth based sound or a new overdrive or stuff like that. So that'll keep it fresh, new tonal pallets I guess, as far as the basin is concerned. But yeah, as far as the records, my approach is the same in that, like I said, I try to let the gear sound the way it sounds like if Blake comes in for the next record, he usually has a different kit, new snare, new heads, different heads. We just try and if it kicks ass, we roll with it and if not, we just change it.

(01:50:36):

And I don't try to do anything in the computer to severely augment 'em. I don't do the whole snare stacking sample thing where you're going to get this radically different thing than what was actually performed on and recorded. So basically whatever they bring in to record with is what it sounds like. And if it's different, it's going to sound different. And even if I use the same EQ or same processing on my end, the actual instrument itself is still going to sound different. And I think that's the main thing. The records with the BT Band records in specific, we used almost a different guitar rig, almost every record, different guitars, different pickups from part to part. So that's going to change the sound there. I just try to make things better. I try to buy better preamps or better conversions, new mics, things like that or whatever to make other things sound better whenever possible. But yeah, I mean, yeah, it's really all you can do. I mean, all I can do anyway. I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:51:44):

I think that people overthink this because having your own sound is almost as it's simple as having your own personality, which

Speaker 5 (01:51:54):

You

Speaker 2 (01:51:55):

Already have, already have your own personality. You already are unique. I mean, some people I guess are more different than others I guess. But you are already unique. You already have your own personality. That's you a hundred percent.

Speaker 6 (01:52:15):

And

Speaker 2 (01:52:15):

So this sounding like you thing is anyone who has put in the time on their instrument or as a mixer or whatnot, is going to have their own sound, like their own feel, their own

(01:52:29):

Tendencies. All that stuff is locked in as a human who put in the time. It's the way that I think people sound fresh yet consistent is just by continually trying to learn new things. Because the one thing that doesn't change, the one thing that's constant in the equation all the time is you, your brain. That's the part that's always there. Your hands, your brain, your ears, no matter what. That filter is always there. So you can learn new things. That's not who you are is not going to change. So the thing that will kill your sound though, I think, is by not continually learning new things that challenge you and keep you evolving. So really I think the only real secret to it in my experience, in my opinion, is learning new things and keep on working at it. And then you will accomplish both. You'll be both consistently you and fresh, and people should just stop overthinking it and just get to work

Speaker 3 (01:53:29):

And stop trying to sound like other people. Exactly,

Speaker 2 (01:53:32):

Yes.

Speaker 3 (01:53:33):

Maybe try to learn just to have the tricks in your toolbox, but don't try to sound like, I have so many people, I want this exact guitar sound and they're not happy with me until it sounds exactly like that. I'm like, this is so pointless sometimes. It's so much work to get, it's like, dude, your hands don't sound that way. You don't understand. It's not just this pickups or guitar amp or whatever. And so many people, they would sound fine and it would be awesome if just would sound the way, they sound fine the way they sound, but they just want it to sound like something else. And they're doing themselves a disservice, I think, in everybody, unless it particularly sounds bad. And even then sometimes sounding bad's better than sounding like somebody else. But I

Speaker 2 (01:54:22):

Agree.

Speaker 3 (01:54:22):

I just think eventually it's going to be to your benefit to having a unique sound. Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:54:29):

Well, speaking of doing a great service, I think you guys have done a great service to our listeners by coming on and hanging out, and I just want to thank you Dan Briggs, and thank you Jamie King for coming on the podcast. I appreciate you taking the time to talk to us and have a great night. I'd love to talk to you again, and thank you. Congrats, of course, on the nomination. Appreciate

Speaker 4 (01:54:54):

It.

Speaker 2 (01:54:54):

Keep killing it. Please. Thanks for having it. The Unstoppable Recording Machine

Speaker 1 (01:54:58):

Podcast is brought to you by Empire Ears. In collaboration with Grammy winning producers, engineers, and their family of touring musicians, empire Ears has developed a line of in ear monitors that deliver what you need for every mix. When it comes to unrivaled stage clarity, or needing a flat and honest reference for your latest studio mix, empire Ears has got you covered no matter where you find yourself. If you like the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast, make sure you leave us a review, subscribe and send us a message if you want to get

Speaker 6 (01:55:32):

In touch.