Lenny Skolnik: Pop-to-Rock Songwriting, Howard Benson’s Studio Secrets, Producing a #1 Hit

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast, brought to you by IK multimedia. Ik. Multimedia gives musicians access to the most famous and sought after guitar gear and studio effects of all time. With our Amplitude and T-Rex analog modeling software, now IK has created the ultimate all-in-one bundle for bands and engineers. The Total Studio two max, combining all of I K's award-winning amp effects sounds and more. It's everything you need to track, mix and master your music. Ik, multimedia musicians first. For more info, go to www.rkmultimedia.com. And now your hosts Joel

Speaker 2 (00:00:45):

Wanasek and Eyal Levi. This show is brought to you by URM Academy, the world's best education for rock and metal producers. Every month on Nail the Mix, we bring one of the world's best producers to mix a song from scratch, from artists like Ms. Sugar Periphery a data, remember, and bring me the horizon, and we give you the raw multi-track so you can mix along. You'll also get access to Mix Lab, our collection of bite-sized mixing tutorials and portfolio builder Pro quality multi-tracks cleared for use in your portfolio. You can find out [email protected].

Speaker 3 (00:01:20):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast. I am your host, Joel Wanasek, and it is great to be back on the mic. I've been really, really, really busy making a bunch of really awesome courses and detailed fantastic content for you guys like Career Builder and all these really cool things we've been talking about and you might've seen on your MPPC or any of the other places that we run our marketing. So it's great to be back in the mic. I've been busy and Eyal has been really kicking ass here on the podcast, so I feel like I wanted to come back and just do a nice podcast. I have somebody on really special that's really interesting and we've got a lot of really awesome things to talk about that I think are going to be a little bit different and have a lot of value.

(00:02:03):

So make sure you guys stick around and let's dig into the weeds. So I brought on my good buddy here, Mr. Leonard Skolnik, and Lenny works for Howard Benson. And Lenny has done boy, a lot of great things. He works with a lot of artists. For example, Miavi is one that Lenny and I have worked on and I mix a lot of songs for Lenny. And Lenny is a fantastic producer out in LA and he has a massive team of people that he works with and writes with and there's a lot of stuff to talk about. So Lenny, man, how you doing, Joel? I'm doing great, man. Happy to be here. Thank you for Well, thank you for coming on.

Speaker 4 (00:02:39):

Yeah, thanks for having me. I know we've been talking about doing this for a long time. It's kind of funny, I probably talk to you four days a week anyway, but we've finally been able to

Speaker 3 (00:02:50):

Microphone. Yeah,

(00:02:53):

Well, I mean, hey, look at the bright side. At least we're both working and kicking ass and having some fun. So I think I wanted to dig in. I like the inspirational stuff to start out because probably a lot of these people that are listening to this aren't familiar with you and who you are and they should be. So why don't you tell your story. I think you've got a cool story. You came up from New York and just tell us where you came from, what your background is, how you got in with Howard and all that stuff.

Speaker 4 (00:03:17):

Yeah, so the early stuff is really typical in bands. I became a producer really because I couldn't sing and so that's a great reason to, but I was a good writer, but I needed someone to deliver the message. So that's really how I became a producer. And then Howard and I met very serendipitously and I have to give credit to his daughter Harley. I went to Drexel University, which is where Howard went, and I was really different from a lot of the kids there in that I was really open about loving pop music and wanting to be successful.

Speaker 3 (00:04:04):

Oh, how dare you do that in the music industry,

Speaker 4 (00:04:06):

Come on. And wanting to make music that reached a lot of people and wanting to make money. Honestly, I think as a joke, but not really as a freshman, I remember we had to go around and it was like, what was your dream job? And I think I was right for Britney Spears. Oh my God, that's amazing. And everyone kind of looked at me,

Speaker 3 (00:04:26):

What did he just say? And I was like, now look. Yeah, I know she's still in the game, so if that goes down and I'm not on that mix, I'm going to come find you. No, of course you'll be the first guy up and matter of fact, we're going to kidnap anybody else that gets that text mix and make sure that I win because then after I check that box off in my life, I'm done. That's it.

Speaker 4 (00:04:46):

That's it. She's

Speaker 3 (00:04:47):

The queen, she's

Speaker 4 (00:04:49):

The queen. So in any event, I built a little bit of a reputation like that and the school was looking for a school spirit song, but like a poppy modern, something that the kids would enjoy listening to and playing. And this other student with the greatest name of all time, Ari Winkelman was in charge of the project and he contacted me and my then production partner, Dave Petit, and we wrote this song and all in all, when I look back, it was pretty horrendous. It was called Blue and Gold, but my roommate was a video major, and so we made a video and the school band had a version and we put this whole thing together and Harley was applying to Drexel Howard's daughter, and she saw this video and she showed her dad, and that just went in the archive right Then I was asked to speak at the accepted student's day where Harley happened to be in the audience with her father. And I mentioned that I had done the song for the school, he remembered it. He came up to me after at the end of the event and we spoke and he offered me an internship after 15 minutes. I was his first intern ever. And I just,

Speaker 3 (00:06:20):

That's crazy. Howard Benson just walks up to you and he's like, hi, I'm Howard Benson and you're probably like, holy shit, remain calm.

Speaker 4 (00:06:27):

Oh no, seriously, nice to meet you. Actually, the first thing he said to me was, do you know who I am? I was like, yeah, I know who you are. And I just remember running back to my, I lived in a row house in Philly at the time, and I just remember running back and no one I lived with was a music major, so nobody knew what I was talking about, but I was convinced and I was right. I was like, guys, my life just changed

Speaker 3 (00:06:57):

And I was right. It was amazing. So what do you think that you said to Howard that made him decide it was time for him to take his first intern on?

Speaker 4 (00:07:04):

I don't know truly, I truly don't know, but Howard invested a lot of time in me over the years. I've worked with him now for close to nine years and he has mentioned to me that it wasn't as much the material but that I produced in the beginning, but as much that I finished things and I could put complete projects together.

Speaker 3 (00:07:34):

And that's an amazing point, and I feel like I noticed that when you tell that story to me, the first thing that sticks out is I think about leadership. Look, you took initiative, you put together a fricking team, you got a big project done, you went way above the beck and call of what was expected and you turned it into a massive production and no one asked you to do it and held a gun to your head and said, Hey look, you have to do this if you want to graduate. You were just like, boom. So that shows real, really an amazing initiative in my point of view.

Speaker 4 (00:08:03):

Yeah, I had another mentor, very young, Larry eol, who was really, he was my elementary school music teacher who became my piano teacher, my mentor. He took me to my first studio, really showed me a lot of what producing was, and he once told me Say yes to everything. He told me that when I was like 15,

Speaker 3 (00:08:26):

Oh, I couldn't agree more.

Speaker 4 (00:08:27):

That's amazing. That's it. You just say yes to literally everything until you get to the point where you can discern your projects. But

Speaker 3 (00:08:35):

What's interesting about that, I was at the mall the other day with Joe, for those of you that don't know Joe, Joe was like my business partner and we own Drum forge together and we also do all the mixing stuff together. And he's been with me for over five years. He's just an absolute beast. So good at what he does. So we were taking the new building intern that interns for the guy across the hall and we're taking him out. We're trying to straighten him up. He's a young 20-year-old kid and I'm at the mall and I see this guy that I know that sells shoeshine and this guy's one of the best natural salesmen I've ever met. I mean, he is like straight hustler and I'm out there, I know him, and I like to bust his balls when I go in there. You can't sell me because I'm a pro salesman too, and I love selling, but it's an important skill to learn as a producer because when somebody comes in, half of what you're doing is selling.

(00:09:22):

You're selling the band and an idea, you're selling the label that the songs I hit, you're selling the client that they need to come and work with you versus the other 10 guys that may be more famous than you. So I'm like, Ryan, you need to learn the skill. And this guy flat out offered the intern a job. He's like, man, come work for me for a week. And he was like, well, I don't know. I'm like, why didn't you take that opportunity? And I chewed him out on the car ride home. Me and Joe were like, I can't believe you didn't do that, man, working with that guy would change your life for a week. That guy has got, you got to say yes to everything. So I just wanted to mirror what you're just saying because Ryan just missed a great opportunity to take a skill that he needs to be successful, which is be able to sell himself and have some fucking confidence, which he lacks. And it just killed me to watch it. I would've been, I was like, yes. Yeah, you got to say yes.

Speaker 4 (00:10:09):

And the key is, I never think about it as selling something as the key is just believing, right? Genuinely believing. And that's what people feel when you're genuinely behind the creation that you have going, the vision of the band and always being honest with the people you're working with about what you think is the right path. So you guys can make a choice if it's the best way, if working together is the best thing. Yeah,

Speaker 3 (00:10:44):

Absolutely. Part of being, and what I mean by selling, because people make this distinction all the time. We'll put an ad on Facebook and then there's always five people that are vocal and everybody else, they're just like, hell yeah. But there's always those couple of people that are like, man, this is bullshit. They just hate marketing for whatever reason. And they don't necessarily understand that you're not trying to sell them, you're trying to solve problems. So it's like when you're working with a band, you're not trying to sell them and manipulate them. What you're trying to do is get out false belief patterns in their head and reframe them so that you can help them help themselves and they'll be open to the ideas that they need because we as individuals are usually the most blind to what we need to do the most in our careers.

(00:11:29):

We have the most self delusion or self doubt. There's a lot of different things that hold people back from success. And it's like sometimes a great producer can walk into your room and look you in the eye and can take your frame of mind, all the things that they're struggling with. They can see it from an external point of view, and they can look at you and they can explain to you and break through all those things that are holding you back mentally. And then it's lifting the cloud from the artist artist, and they're like, I know what I need to do now. And I feel like a hallmark of great producers. So that's what I mean by one example of what I mean by being a great salesman, learning how to read people and to get through the objectives that you need to get, that you are hired for so you can be effective with the artist and really take that project to the next level.

Speaker 4 (00:12:10):

Yeah, it's invaluable and it's based off of trust and honesty.

Speaker 3 (00:12:17):

Absolutely.

Speaker 4 (00:12:18):

And people feel that. And everything you've said is

Speaker 3 (00:12:23):

Absolutely right. Yeah. You can't just, people think that, I mean, yeah, okay, there's a lot of salesmen out there trying to pull a fast one, but we're not selling cars here. You know what I mean? This is music, we're selling art, passion, careers, inspiration, there's a lot of different things. So it's like you as a producer, your job is to look at a project and just sit down and be like, what's the vision? And really take it to the next level because sometimes the artists the answer right in front of their face, but they have a belief system or a doubt or something that's clouding them. And if you can lift that shroud, they can then perform at peak. And that is where the magic really happens.

Speaker 4 (00:12:58):

And just going back just a moment, I've been collecting Howard ISS for close to 10 years now, and I just still remember this. I think I must've been 20 when he said this to me. He goes, if you're a producer, your job is to produce, literally there has to be a product. And if you can cross the finish line, you'll be ahead of 99% of the other people out there trying to do what you're doing. That's so true. That is so true. I just can't stress that enough for people coming up and people really trying to do this, finishing what you're doing and putting it out there so people can see what you do is everything. And it can be really, really difficult to get artists to cross the finish line.

Speaker 3 (00:13:49):

And there's a lot of obstacles, and I feel like if you're one of those people sitting at home maybe that just working on local artists and you're aspiring to want to grow up to the big, big, big stuff, this is the stuff at the top level that is really, really intense is that there's a lot of politics. So you may have a vision as a producer with an artist, but the a and r guy might have a totally different vision and maybe the manager has a different vision and you have all these different visions and it's like your job as the producer is to bring all these people together and find that sweet spot where the art can live and still be authentic. You have to navigate

Speaker 4 (00:14:23):

It. And the truth is, collaboration almost always yields a better product, so in a better creation. But you do have to navigate, you do have to be discerning about whose feedback you're taking in, how you're applying it, when you're applying it, when you're sharing everyone's feedback with each other to keep the process going and to make sure that everybody stays on the path and enjoys the process.

Speaker 3 (00:14:58):

Yeah, absolutely. So one of the things I really wanted to dig in with you here, because I think you're excellent at this and having worked with you and we just slay songs out crazily. I'll give you an example of something we recently did. So for everybody listening, we did a single here for Mavi, and I don't know the full side of the story on your half Lenny, maybe you can tell that. But basically it was something like you guys got together and just last minute threw down a song, and then in three days that song went from an idea in your guys' head to fully mixed, approved and turned into the label on a time crunch in between tour dates or something crazy like that. Are you talking about pink spider? I think that might've been it. This was maybe a month ago. We were talking about the label was so happy that we just completely ripped this song out of nowhere in three days. It was crazy. It's actually a

Speaker 4 (00:15:51):

Cover of a very famous Japanese nineties rock song by a really famous guitarist. So he used to be the guitarist of extra Japan is my understanding. And they were doing a tribute album and all be told, it actually ended up being a CrunchTime because of a miscommunication between me, the manager and the label. And what we thought was the deadline for the demo was actually the deadline for the master. So luckily I was ahead of the process, but it was true. Basically I was already in Japan and we were preparing for tour and we weren't planning on really doing any production for a few days. Luckily my programmer Johnny Linton and he co-produces a lot of the stuff with me, including that's Johnny's amazing. He's incredible. And Shabo my basically production and writing partner as well. And also he's also, yeah, and on tour with Mavi also on the moment,

Speaker 3 (00:17:10):

Sean is somebody for reference, Sean is how I actually met Lenny and somebody I've been working with since he's been about 15 or 16 years old, and one of those kids that was in my market that I just spotted a star and I'm like, I need to teach this kid how to be successful. And now look where he is and what he's doing. It's incredible.

Speaker 4 (00:17:28):

And he linked us up, which has just been invaluable. That's really the team now. And so we had three days to turn this whole thing around and balancing the time difference and the mixed revisions, as you know, it takes time for a mix to sit in sometimes, so it's really hard. But we got it all done basically. I didn't sleep for two and a half days and we knocked that out, which I hate doing, but you got to do it sometimes and and then everybody was happy and then you prove that you can get that done, and now you're the guy who gets things done, oh, we need this to get done. We should go to Lenny and his team. They'll make it happen. Yeah, what I saw,

Speaker 3 (00:18:18):

That's what you want to establish and say is one of me, Avi's upper management people, he does all of his day-to-day stuff. And when I saw him at Nam, he stopped me and he was just like, thank me. He's like, dude, I just want to say thanks. The rate of speed that you guys are turning around mixes at is incredible, and it's actually allowing us to speed up our production time and our release time, and it's making us a more profitable business and how Japanese people are just so about efficiency. I mean, I guess so I, but it was nice to hear because being the mixer, it's kind of at the end of the chain, people are just like, does it sound good? Okay, great, no one cares. But to hear that it was actually helping them run more effectively as a business was like, I kind of said the businessman of me sat back and smiled and I'm like, yeah, baby. Yeah. Well, Joel, I got

Speaker 4 (00:19:07):

To tell you that I've never worked with a mixer that has your process and it fits so well into what I'm trying to do with my business and how I produce my records. And I think it fits so well into how modern records are being made, especially it can be less and less common to have an outside mixer. And so many mixers are really, how do you say, if you go past three or four revisions, there can be a little attitude or things like that you run into occasionally or there's how it is, which I get. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I totally get, but I have to say just the workflow that, and I don't know if you do this with every client, but the workflow that we have is so efficient. Basically we decide, Joel tells me when he's going to get me the mix, and then I tell him when I'm going to have, let's say an hour free time, and we just sit, and sometimes for an hour, sometimes two, if it's multiple songs or if it's a really tough mix and we'll just go back and forth. He'll literally do the revisions in 10 minutes, 15 minutes, and I'll sit, I'll do a little something while he's doing the revisions, then I listen, I send it, well, I'm listening, you do a little something else, and we just go back,

Speaker 3 (00:20:40):

Usually another revision for something else. I optimize every minute of my day,

Speaker 4 (00:20:45):

But it's so productive and so useful, and I always know that by the end of those sessions, basically I'm going to be happy with the mix. And then we send it off to management and Mavi, and then Mavi does that process in his own way, but it's basically already there

Speaker 3 (00:21:02):

And then we just get it done. But I mean, that's how there's something to be said for creating systems, and this is going to be relevant because last year I put out a course called Speed Mixing, how to mix over 500 songs a year, and there's a clear distinction that has to be made when you say something like that. Yeah, it's a good title and it's a good hook, but it sounds kind of marketing. So people are like, well, you must be compromising quality, or people are trying to always shoot the hole in it. I'm like, no, I'm talking about creating a system that allows you to be insanely efficient and more importantly effective with the time that you're using. So when you sit down, you are actually working on the shit that matters. Not like, oh, got to set up a guitar bus. Oh no, I got to set up a vocal bus.

(00:21:48):

Which compressor am I going to try today on the vocals? Let's audition all 27 of them. I'm going to hand instantiate every single one of them, and five hours later, you still haven't done the most important thing. And that's mixed the fucking song. So it's like I built an entire system for everything from client interaction that allows you to knock all that stuff out and do that. That's actually coming out. We're doing the second version, and we crushed that course last year. We ran it through people and it just blew their minds and I can't wait to bring it back. So the point is, I sat down years ago because when I was doing this, I was working with local bands, and that was the beginning for me. It was like the band would come in, they'd be like, dude, we can only afford to pay you for five days to do five songs.

(00:22:28):

Well, I mean, God, try doing five songs in five days, and I'm talking mixed and mastered. Here's your master, here's your payment, have a nice day, 5:00 PM Friday, and they come in on Monday. So that was crazy. So a lot of that was developed. And then when I got an assistant, Joe and I really sat down and just analyzed every little part of the way we were interacting. And then when Joey came involved and we started mixing a lot of stuff with Joey, we were clear in 50, 60 songs a month for years. And it was nuts. And again, without in my opinion, compromising any type of quality. But it was just like a lot of people don't understand what actual mixing is. They think it's setting up a bus and routing and all that shit can be done for you and should be done for you right off the bat. And then you can sit down and focus on what's most important. It's like when you hit play for the first time as the mixer, what is the vibe of the song with the producer and what is the energy? What are you feeling that song? And then you can drive her home. So I guess my point is just having a system like that or we've developed together, it just allows you to rock and roll and it's just so seamless.

Speaker 4 (00:23:34):

Yeah, I mean, I couldn't have said any of that better myself, and I just want to take a moment and give thanks for Joe Witz, he without whom none of the sessions would be built.

Speaker 3 (00:23:47):

Yeah, I mean, that's an understatement. When I get something from Joe, it's like I hit play and it already sounds, it's already like 80 to 90% there. You know what I mean? I bet I pretty much just have to balance an EQ and check a couple meter things and make sure, because I know what I'm going to use and if I want to slop something out, it's already built into the template so I can just quickly audition. So it's like we have to make a guitar tone, for example. He'll have three of them in there, and he's amazing at designing sound design type guitar tones, and I suck at it. I know how to mix the shit. I'm not the best at, he's the nerd with that stuff. So he'll just make it and I'll sit back and just be like, yes, no, yep, that's the one. Boom, all right. But it's already gained structured, it's already hitting the limiter exactly where I want it. And then I'm just like, does it need eq? How is it fitting in the thing? Does it need balance? Do I need, you know what I mean? And it's like I can focus on mixing it and not sitting there, and boy, if I add a little bit more treble or presence on the amp, if I change the gain structuring, he already optimizes all that stuff for me. So I mean, that just shows you the level of efficiency

Speaker 4 (00:24:49):

And what you said about mixing 500 songs a year. One thing that is consistent throughout history is the more you do, the greater chance you have of success.

Speaker 3 (00:25:02):

When

Speaker 4 (00:25:02):

You look at even composers, Beethoven, Mozart, statistically speaking, their most famous pieces, some of them were written when they were young, some old, some in the middle, but one thing that's consistent is they were all written at the most prolific times of their life when they were writing the most material. So the more songs, if you're a mixer, the more songs you're mixing a year, the higher chance you have of one of those being a hit. And just like if you're a songwriter, the higher the more songs you write, if you're a producer, the more songs you produce. So

Speaker 3 (00:25:41):

Yeah. Now it's interesting you say this because I think from what I understand, and you can I guess tell the story better than anybody, I heard that Howard was one of the first people as a producer to kind of pioneer that sort of workflow where he can make several records at once and have a really amazing team. So this is something, like I said, I really want to deep dive into was building a team, what kind of people to hire, how to build a team, how to manage a team, and things like that. But Howard was one of the first guys, if I understand correctly, that really started doing this as a producer.

Speaker 4 (00:26:13):

Yeah, I mean, honestly, I don't think anybody in history before or after has done it on the scope that he was doing it. I mean, the guy was making over 10 records a year when he was pretty intense flying. So yeah, he's an aeronautics engineer by trade. Actually. He went to school when people say, this isn't rocket science, he actually was a rocket scientist, so he'll say this. He took what he learned from the assembly line and he applied it to the studio, the best engineer, the best musicians with the best instruments, working with the best engineer, you get the best parts and the best sounds and the best editor, and then by the time you get the files, you can't lose and everybody's working separately. When I worked for Howard, actually, what I started doing in the beginning was programming and string arrangements. And while basically the song, which we all know is the foundation and the most important thing, the song in the demo were always really ironed out. Everybody knew where they were heading that had been workshopped to pieces, and then everyone broke off and did what they did at the same time, drums and bass and guitars were being recorded while I was programming doing any keys or strings. And Howard was cutting the vocals at the same time over the demo track. And then it would get all brought, it would all get brought together by Hatch, who engineers all the Mavi stuff and engineers all my stuff and is just, he's incredible. He's incredible.

Speaker 3 (00:28:06):

Oh man, I can't wait to do a Mavi Nail the mix so people can hear what Hatch's tones are like because they're just going to open up and be like, damn, I need to work on my guitar tone game. It's unreal. I've never met an

Speaker 4 (00:28:15):

Engineer more in control of sound. If you're like, oh, hatch, I want this to sound like a rubber band. I want the guitar to sound more rubbery.

Speaker 3 (00:28:28):

I need a frog farting out of a tulip,

Speaker 4 (00:28:30):

Out a vox, he disappear, he disappears, and he's always like, give me a sec. And he disappears. He'll get a cup. I've seen him literally get a cup, cut a hole in it. Oh, cut a bigger hole in it. I don't know what the hell he's doing with it. He goes in the other room and then he hits the mute button off and there it is. The guitar sounds more rubbery. And I'm like, alright, sweet.

Speaker 3 (00:28:56):

That's amazing. The tones you guys send me, I'm always just like, it starts with Johnny's programming, the samples he uses. I just look at the drums and I'm like, Joe will open the song. I'm like, how does it sound? And he just looks at me and he smiles and I'm like, it's going to be a good day today. Yeah, the

Speaker 4 (00:29:13):

Sample

Speaker 3 (00:29:13):

Choice,

Speaker 4 (00:29:14):

Johnny's sample choice is just unparalleled. It's really

Speaker 3 (00:29:17):

True.

(00:29:19):

He's just a weapon. I mean, your whole team is like, that's everybody. So I listened to the drums, I'm like, boy, that already sounds incredible. Let's just not fuck it up and just give it a little bit of sauce. Alright, guitars, cool. Let's just clean up a couple of little problem areas, but my God, these sound incredible. To get that going where it needs to hit the vol, everything is always just totally well done. And that was something that really blew my mind on the Mavi record when I opened those stem, the session up, and I started digging into the multi-tracks. I walked in the first day when we started mixing the first song for that album. And Joe, he just looks at me, he's like, dude, you're going to love this. I'm like, yeah. And then I opened it up and my computer and I hit play and I'm like, wow, that sounds really good. Do I need, oh boy, it sounds like a mix. Let's get in and start tweaking this a little bit. But man, wow. Seriously, that doesn't happen every day,

Speaker 4 (00:30:11):

As you know. And we've talked about this, and the key is getting people who are better than you at what they do. That's their passion. Johnny loves sounds, he loves little sounds. He listens to records for the things that are 18 decibels down in the back, and this is what he lives for. Hatch lives for recording live sound, you know what I mean? And I know with your team and your business all the way down to the people who do the programming on your plugins, that's the philosophy. And when you're putting your team together, that's really the key. People have to just love what they're doing that fits into the bigger picture of the vision for your company. And then everyone has to trust in your vision and that you're going to take, you're going to lead everybody where they need to go, and that everyone's input is valued and appreciated. And of course, if you feel like these people are amazing at what they do, and this is their passion, you trust them in a way to lead you in that specific area.

Speaker 3 (00:31:32):

Absolutely.

Speaker 4 (00:31:33):

And yeah, it's invaluable when you have people on your team that can do that for you.

Speaker 2 (00:31:42):

Hey everybody, if you're enjoying this podcast, then you should know that's brought to you by URM Academy UM Academy's mission is to create the next generation of audio professionals by giving them the inspiration and information to hone their craft and build a career doing what they love. You've probably heard me talk about Nail the Mix before, and if you're a member, you already know how amazing it is. At the beginning of the month, nail the mix members get the raw multi-tracks to a new song by artists like Bringing the Horizon ra, asking Alexandria Machine Head and Papa Roach among many, many others. Then at the end of the month, the producer who mixed it comes on and does a live streaming walkthrough of exactly how they mix the song on the album and takes your questions live on air. You'll also get access to Mix Lab, our collection of dozens of bite-sized mixing tutorials that cover all the basics as well as Portfolio Builder, which is a library of pro quality multi-tracks cleared for your use in your portfolio.

(00:32:41):

So your career will never again be held back by the quality of your source material. And for those who really want to step up the game, we have another membership tier called URM Enhanced, which includes everything I already told you about, and access to our massive library of fast tracks, which are deep, super detailed courses on intermediate and advanced topics like gate staging, mastering low end and so forth. It's over 40 hours of content. And man, let me tell you, this stuff is just insanely detailed. Hence, members also get access to one-on-one office hour sessions with us and Mix Rescue, which is where we open up one of your mixes on a live video stream, fix it up and talk you through exactly what we're doing at every step. So if any of that sounds interesting to you, if you're ready to level up your mixing skills and your audio career, head over to URM academy.com to find out more.

Speaker 3 (00:33:38):

So when you're building your team, because somebody listening to this might be like, all right, well, I'm starting to climb up the ladder a little bit and I'm starting to think about outsourcing. How do you go and find these people? I'll give you an example from my life. So to do unstoppable recording machine here, I've always had really ambitious dreams and goals of what I wanted to do since I was probably 18 or 19 years old. I wanted to be a badass entrepreneur and I could never find the right business partners. And the first person I met that was really amazing was Joe. Then I got Joey and a all in my life and all the people that I work with now, I look for stars and it's a little bit easier now than it was, but it took me about 10 to 15 years of my life to find the right people to work with to achieve the kind of things I was dreaming about in my head. So where would you recommend to somebody who is a decently established or even budding producer that's thinking, alright, I don't like recording guitars. I'm not that good at it. I don't like editing. I'm not that good at it, but man, I know how to drive a song home and work with a band and get, so where do they start looking for people and how do they acquire them? That's

Speaker 4 (00:34:47):

A great question. I want to think about, I mean, one thing I can tell you quite concretely is I work very closely with my university where I went to college and I take interns every year and I'm always talking with my professors. I'm doing guest lectures there, and I'm always looking for students in the class that stand out. And I'm always asking my professors on the inside, yo, who is it? Who is it who's coming out to LA this year? And it's been really fruitful and really productive. And I've worked with people on the business side now and on the tech side, Johnny was the first guy actually that I ever first intern I ever found from Drexel. And he came out here and he just never went back. And he was just so kick ass. And yeah, and I've had that experience now with two or three interns. Yeah, so contact your, it's honestly not a bad idea. I mean, there are music industry programs all over now. Contact a university in your area. Hey, I'm a local producer and I'm looking for an intern, or I'm looking for an assistant for very low pay, but something or someone who wants to work for credit and you never know what, you know what you're going to find. Usually the top kid in the program, he's pretty fricking good.

Speaker 3 (00:36:37):

Yeah, absolutely. There's always one or two that has a great attitude. I did an a ES chapter thing in Arizona and I had a bunch of kids and I lectured for four hours on Skype, and there was this one person that just really stood out and I just kept asking all these questions and they hit me up afterwards and I gave 'em some advice. And from my point of view, it's like people all ask me all the time, how do you get an internship? How do you get this? And I'm just like, dude, you just got to attack that shit. There are a lot of really competent, capable people who are successful out in the market that are just struggling to find good people to come work on their teams. And all you got to do is hit up enough people and just show them that you are the real deal and you're going to work hard and you're going to be committed and you want to find your thing.

(00:37:25):

And when you show that kind of value, I mean to me it comes down to just really assessing, okay, who do I need on my team? I'm thinking, and then I go out and I try to hit up everybody that I need know. So having good networking, for example, and just looking for people that stand out that are like, I go around like U-R-M-P-P-C now sometimes, and it look like who's good at graphics and a bunch of people apply. You go, you'll look through 50 things, then all of a sudden you'll see one person that really stands out. So you throw 'em a test, and if they kill it, then boom, you got to star and then you can nurture that relationship. So you just got to reach out, find people, and just really look for people that stand out.

Speaker 4 (00:38:05):

Yeah, you got to put yourself out there. You got to create things, you got to put 'em out there, you got to promote it. I mean, you got to get behind yourself, you know what I mean? Can't just make songs in your bedroom. And honestly, you create this content sometimes as a producer, you create the content and then the band goes and then it disappears that maybe the band pushes it, maybe they don't, maybe they break up, maybe this. But if you have created something that you really believe in, do not be afraid to get involved beyond just the role of the music. And that's been something that's been really, really important and helpful in my career with

Speaker 3 (00:38:51):

Absolutely with not agree more.

Speaker 4 (00:38:53):

Like with Mavi, from the moment I saw that guy, I was like, this guy's, it so special, such a creator, such a powerful message just in a sea. I always say in Japan, in a room of 2000 people, everyone wearing black, I can find me Avi, in three and a half seconds.

Speaker 3 (00:39:21):

He definitely has his brand just on point. He

Speaker 4 (00:39:24):

Love it. He just irradiates something. He has that thing that makes him a star and he has something that he wants to share with the world. So my point being, I helped produce the live show now. I placed Johnny and Sean in the show. I also, last week I pitched me Avi for Good Morning America. I had a connection there. It goes beyond, you make this content, you find people you really believe in, and then you do everything you can to bring that material out into the world. So yeah, if you really have something you believe in, then I actually would really encourage producers to promote it and not just leave it up to a manager or a band or to the music itself to find its way into the world. You know

Speaker 3 (00:40:23):

What I mean? That's such a strong message, Lenny. And anybody that's listened to my live rants and really follows some of the stuff we do here at URM knows that I am always beating the crap out of the drum that says, you have to create more value for your clients. I mean, I'll give you an example, A perfect example is this conversation as possible because I took a kid named Sean and he didn't just come into my studio recording, go home. I sat down and I developed him, I trained him, I worked with him through several different projects, tell him I'm still mixing shit for him back over 10 years later. And I'm always been in touch like, Hey, dude, you're in la. How's it going? What's new in your life? Or he needs advice. I wanted to audition for this, or I want to do this, or I'm thinking, you know what I mean? Just really trying to help people genuinely because you care and you believe in what they're doing. You see the talent and sometimes that gets reciprocated back on you when you don't expect it and it takes you down crazy journeys. A perfect example of that is you guys flew me out to Japan after we did the last Mavi record, and man, we had a lot of fun in two weeks. So it was a really incredible experience.

Speaker 4 (00:41:32):

That was one of the most memorable trips of my life for sure. And that was an amazing thing, right? Because we had just made Samurai Sessions volume two, and the whole team was there except for Hatch, but he was there in spirit. But we met Hatch. I met Hatch before we left, so right,

Speaker 3 (00:41:53):

He was there in principle.

Speaker 4 (00:41:54):

Oh yeah, me, you, me, Avi, Johnny, Sean, and then of course SE and Mars and everyone on the management side. So yeah, that was really special.

Speaker 3 (00:42:03):

Yeah, that was just amazing. So I mean, that just goes to show you, it's like if you create value for people in advance of what they're paying you for and that you believe in them, there's a lot of things you can do when you believe in a project to really drive it home. And I mean, I've pitched bands before, I've developed bands, and I never got paid for most of that stuff, but a lot of the bands that really did something with that, or the artists that came back years later and they brought me good records or introduced me to people that changed my life. I mean, that's how I met my business partner, Joey, the same band that Sean was in. We went down to Joey's and he mixed, and I ended up producing, they only had four days, and I met Joey and we were like brothers from another mother man.

(00:42:47):

We were just like, we both used Cubase, we both were self-taught dudes like Rocky, he was in his garage. I was in my mom's basement and we were both figuring stuff out on our own, and we all came to the same conclusions. And when we both saw that we had that passion, we've been friends ever since. So I think that's really amazing. So I wanted to dive into, I think that's really interesting on just what makes a great team, and you can obviously see why you've achieved so much and been so successful. Let's talk about actual writing of songs. And this is something I feel like we don't really get to dive into too much over here at URM because we have such a large metal and rock audience, and I really want to bring in, and we're working on bringing in some other genre stuff, but the pop world is all about just songwriting, song, song, song songs, metal people care about guitar tone and snare drums and breakdowns and stuff like that. And the pop world, they're like, dude, is it a head? Is it? So what do you think makes a great song, Lenny? Talk about your songwriting process.

Speaker 4 (00:43:49):

Oh, what makes a great song? So a lot of times we're selling feelings. So a great song is just a song that comes on and you feel it. You feel something, you feel like dancing, you feel like you miss somebody, you feel like you're thinking about a certain time in your life. So I think that blanket statement, it's just a great song, is a song that makes you feel something. And then a hit song is a song that makes everybody feel something. And by the way, that may be, I hate this song. For every person that hates a song passionately, another person will love it. Is my theory absolutely

Speaker 3 (00:44:39):

Some's about feeling some of the violent stuff?

Speaker 4 (00:44:41):

Yeah, it's about strong feelings. So yeah, let me actually amend that. It's about strong feelings. The worst thing that can happen to me when I'm playing someone for a song is if they think it's good or Oh, it's good. Yeah. Oh yeah. And you're just like, oh, fuck. If someone says, I really don't like that man, or I don't honestly, dude, that lyric is just like, I can't stand it. I'm like, okay, that's something. Yes, I might be onto something. And in fact, Howard taught me this to train myself. Even when I'm listening to songs and auditioning songs for projects, if I hate something to train myself to think, wait a minute, maybe there's something here.

Speaker 3 (00:45:43):

Absolutely.

Speaker 4 (00:45:43):

I can't stand this, so it's making me feel something. So there's probably something worth exploring here. So that's just something you can't forget.

Speaker 3 (00:45:57):

I think that's the hardest thing to get over too. As a producer, when you grow up, you have obviously your favorite genre, at least most people do, and especially in metal, if you come up listening to anything heavy, you're like your 10 year time period and everything else is a bunch of poer crap and everything else sucks and has no talent. I mean, that's just such an elitist typical metal attitude. And the hard part, the hardest part for me, when I was in that macho 25-year-old kid mindset, it was realizing that I actually liked pop music, even though I fucking detested it. I hated pop more than anything on earth. And one day I was over at my buddy's house, dude and Britney Spears Toxic came on for 15 seconds. I caught the first round of the hook and I'm like, fuck this shit, turn this off. And my drummer's like, yeah, man, this is bullshit. Hits the button. And we're like, we went downstairs and played thrash metal riffs to compensate for the pop. That damn song. Dude was in my head for two and a half weeks. Oh, a taste of, I'm like, oh my God, dude, that song will convert this.

Speaker 4 (00:46:58):

That song will convert anybody. It will convert anybody.

Speaker 3 (00:47:03):

It's amazing. Then I just realized one day I'm like, am I just being too metal and elitist to realize that I love this fucking song? And I'm like, I love this song. And then I just started listening to it, man. I showed people my pop Spotify playlist. Dude, it's so embarrassing. The answer was yes, you were.

Speaker 4 (00:47:20):

You

Speaker 3 (00:47:22):

Had to get over it. But that's such a weapon when you can do that as a producer, then you can go in and be like, dude, this emo stuff is stupid. I don't get it. I'm old school. Then you can sit down for three days and listen to it and then realize why people like it. And then once you understand why people like it, you can then like it too. My latest thing is mumble rap, man. Everybody's like, man, I'm like, this is the shit. This is the coolest thing I've ever heard. So into all that stuff now, and 10 years ago, 15 years ago, it would've been impossible for me to listen to something like that's like, I think that's such a great point. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (00:47:56):

I also think if you're a writer and a producer, it's your duty to yourself to listen to everything and not in a way that you got to listen to something and copy it, but if something is resonating with the world, it's probably good to check it out. And I even feel that way about hit TV shows. Why is this resonating? I'm always thinking about that in terms of art across all genres, and then also when you're listening back, why did this resonate back in the day? Depending on what you're listening to and getting a context and thinking about how your art relates to the world. Absolutely. But as a writer, I'm a really, really big believer in write What, and anytime I'm in a room with someone and someone starts talking about, well, if they did this or they did that, and I'm like, this song is never going to work because let's just stop right now. They, what are you talking about? How are you going to write something that makes you feel something if you never felt that feeling? You know what I'm saying?

Speaker 3 (00:49:20):

Absolutely.

Speaker 4 (00:49:20):

If I'm writing with someone who, let's say there's this song with Leah Marie Johnson, DNA, and that song is about her mother and father's tumultuous relationship growing up and how she sees some of these qualities in herself that she saw in her father, these negative qualities, but she can't stop her DNA sometimes she feels like that. It's such a powerful and beautiful song, and while I've not been in that story, but I think we can all relate to sometimes the feeling of not being able to control ourselves. So you don't necessarily have to have gone through the exact thing to collaborate with somebody and write, but if that experience wasn't her real life, there's no way we could have gotten to that place of just the vulnerability and the honesty and having that song, that song has really reached and touched a lot of people. It has over 20 million streams on Spotify, and I think a lot of people just

Speaker 3 (00:50:40):

Feel it. Absolutely. So what is your songwriting process when you sit down and you try to write a song? Because there's always that feeling like, Hey, I have to write this song in the next two days, but how do you make it authentic? How do you make it current? There's a lot of, that's really the challenge as a writer, I feel like,

Speaker 4 (00:50:55):

Yeah, it's different depending on who's in the room. You always got to read the room and read the energy, and it depends, and it's also a bit different if I'm writing with the artist or if I'm not, I'm writing with the artist, generally speaking, I just talk with them. We go out in the courtyard away from instruments and we just talk and we share things about our lives. And it's therapy really. I don't know. I often can't imagine people having to go into work and they're going through something and they just have to sit there and bottle it up and work on a spreadsheet for our job. If I'm going through something or the artist comes in, I can't tell you the amount of times tears have been shed. Just talking in the courtyard is countless, and it doesn't always have to be sad by the way, but it could be we're just telling each other about our lives, and eventually somebody says something and I'm like, that would be a great song, and now we know where we're going, right? It's like, okay, the lyric has just been said. So that's the feeling. Now we know what kind of chords we want to put to it. What's the best melody for this lyric? What's the best way to deliver this lyric and get the feeling across? That's kind of my favorite way, honestly, because you won't miss, your roadmap is laid out. You know what I'm saying?

Speaker 3 (00:52:31):

Yeah. That's amazing. It's like you're sitting there looking for that one moment of a jam and boom, that's what you're going to attack. And then your job as the producer is to translate into instruments.

Speaker 4 (00:52:41):

You just mixed a song by happy sometimes. That came out this week called Heartbreaker.

Speaker 3 (00:52:47):

Yes.

Speaker 4 (00:52:48):

That was a difficult song to mix. It was a difficult song to mix. I'll tell you what, we talked for over five hours without writing a note before that title came to us heartbreaker, and the line is, heartbreaker better not cry. She had just been through something where she basically broke up with somebody and or told someone she didn't want to be with them, and they were really hurt and she was also hurt. And that just came up like, wow. It's often thought about the person who breaks the heart. They better not cry. They're always the villain. And that just came up from her life and from us talking about it. And after that, the song kind of wrote itself. You know what I mean? When you have a lyric heartbreaker better not Cry, you kind of know where that song's going. Well,

Speaker 3 (00:53:46):

She's definitely not going to be screaming over blast beats and distorted guitars.

Speaker 4 (00:53:49):

That's right. That's right. And then Sean was in there, so it helps to have the man with 30 million melodies in his head, and then Kara is just the most incredible writer. So there was no way we were going to miss when

Speaker 3 (00:54:04):

You just needed that catalyst

Speaker 4 (00:54:06):

When you had the concept. And that's not to be said. So much can be said for where you get inspiration. If you have a track guy who just has put on a beat to make you feel something and make you get in a mood, and then that makes you think of something, that's another way to do it. Absolutely. Johnny's just got to write that 20 pack. Right? And then I work with Ray Dalton, who another unbelievable artist and creator who just has something inside of him that has to come out. And so he loves to just get on. Ray

Speaker 3 (00:54:46):

Is amazing. He

Speaker 4 (00:54:46):

Loves to just get, I

Speaker 3 (00:54:47):

Love that track you did with Macklemore.

Speaker 4 (00:54:48):

Thank you. Yeah, he loves to just get on the mic and sing, and that's what Ray on this earth to do to spread goodness and sing. And basically it just comes out of him and then we get the feeling from his melody, and a lot of times lyrics just come out of him as well, kind of the sounds he's using. We're like, oh, that kind of sounds like that. So it really depends on who you're working with.

Speaker 3 (00:55:15):

Everybody has their own discovery process, and it's really just about guiding it in and having the ear and the eye and the vision for what needs to get done.

Speaker 4 (00:55:25):

I think it's about creating a space where people feel safe enough to tap into the innermost feelings and have no inhibitions. It's much more nerve wracking than you think to get on a mic with no idea what you're going to sing and just start singing over a track, which everybody should try. By the way, as therapy,

Speaker 3 (00:55:52):

If you can't, well, most people, I equate it to dancing. Most people won't even go and dance if they're out with their friends. They don't want to embarrass theirselves and look stupid. But reality is no one that you're with can dance any better, and they're all just afraid to get their asses out there anyways, and they don't want to feel stupid. So you might as well just go have fun and feel stupid later and you've never felt so good after a night where

Speaker 4 (00:56:13):

You've just danced your heart out. Hell

Speaker 3 (00:56:16):

Yeah.

Speaker 4 (00:56:16):

So if you can create a space where people feel like they can dance their heart out, you will get the material that moves you the most. You know what I mean? Absolutely. Yeah. I don't have any advice on how to do that, except I do share a lot about myself with the people I write with. They know a lot about me. They know how I'm feeling. They know what I did over the weekend. They know what I'm proud of, what I'm not proud of. So it's just about connecting with the people that you're creating with. That's like my best advice in terms of writing songs. Connect, just connect with the people. Connect with yourself and

Speaker 3 (00:57:01):

And revise. Well, it's no wonder that you're great at what you do. I mean, it just radiates. And I get the privilege of mixing a lot of these songs so I can see the results of all the work. And it's pretty cool to see the process. So here's something that I think is also really interesting is that what's cool about working with you and your team, Lenny, is that we do a lot of stuff in a lot of different markets and you can't write the same kind of song, for example, that you would do in Japan as you would in the US EDM market, right? So what advice would you give somebody if they want to go and work in different markets, which is a massive opportunity? For example, I have one number, one song, and of course it was in Japan, not in the us, but it doesn't matter for me. I'm like, I finally got a number one. This is the most amazing thing as a mixer. So to me it's like a great honor and it's cool. That was somewhere else because I got to go there. I got to experience the culture. And so as a writer, how the hell do you go in and attack stuff for different markets? Because it's a completely different mindset, especially when you cross cultural lines.

Speaker 4 (00:58:09):

That's true. It is really different. The first thing you got to do is obviously familiarize yourself and research, but the most valuable thing you could do by far is team up with somebody who knows it naturally. So I'm the only on dancing with my fingers. The two artists are Japanese, Avi and Daichi Miura. So as their stay true to their, as long as they stay true to themselves, it won't miss, I'm almost there at that point to be the American Spice, or I'm something a little different to come and shake it up. But ultimately it's going to be funneled through their vision, their ars, their management and get there. But it's really even on the writing side, obviously like Mavi and Daichi, both a huge part of the writing. So that would honestly be my advice. And by the way, I also believe that's really true for going between genres. I worked with all that remains, and I co-wrote every song on their last record, their legendary metal group from the Northeast. And that was such a unique and amazing experience. And I absolutely loved working with the guys and loved working with Phil. But I do not come from Metal. I don't have the history, I don't have the knowledge. But didn't

Speaker 3 (00:59:54):

You guys get a number one off that record?

Speaker 4 (00:59:55):

We did. We had a number

Speaker 3 (00:59:56):

One. There you go. I mean, that just was the show. So you wrote a number one song, you co-wrote a number one in a genre that you don't even really do. I feel like that's proof in the pudding of your methodologies and your mindset.

Speaker 4 (01:00:11):

And the key was obviously it doesn't get, I mean more metal than them. They have the most knowledge and they've been around for however, 15 years or something. Plus Sean was in the session and Sean comes from metal. So I was there to do what I was just talking about, which was just connect. Connect with, connect with Phil and talk. And we just spent days, I mean, we spent a month, two months in the courtyard just talking. And it was just my job to be the story guy. What are we talking about? What is the feeling? And then Sean and Phil would then convert that into delivering it sonically. But I really had to trust them to lead me in terms of, oh man, we would never say that. Or, you know what I mean? Certain nuances. Absolutely. Certain nuances. I had to trust that it's not metal enough, bro. We're going to lose all of our cred. Yeah, yeah. Or making the conscious decision to say, you know what, dude, we would never say this, but fuck it. And Phil took a lot of chances on this last record doing that, making that decision to

Speaker 3 (01:01:32):

Push the boundaries. Well, it definitely seems like it paid off. So Lenny, I know you got a hard cutoff here and you got to get going, so I just wanted to thank you for an amazing conversation that was super interesting and we have so much more to talk about. So we'll have to do this again sometime, Joel, that's so fun. And I'll talk to you later

Speaker 4 (01:01:49):

Today about another song we got coming up.

Speaker 3 (01:01:52):

Alright, I'm ready to go. So thank you all and for listening. And Lenny, if they want to check out your work, where can they find you? Oh, that's a great

Speaker 4 (01:02:01):

Question. Young Spielberg on Instagram. Y-U-N-G-S-P-I-E-L-B-U-R-G. Yeah, I can go on my Instagram. That's the best place just to, you'll see I post a lot of, post a lot of clips of what I'm doing and you'll also be able to see a lot of the artists I'm working with and links to a lot of the songs.

Speaker 3 (01:02:26):

Can I just say that the actual young Spielberg's music that you're writing is possibly one of the sickest things I've heard in a long time? I love it. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:02:39):

Hopefully we'll do another podcast after that project launches.

Speaker 3 (01:02:44):

Oh, please. The one song that I've done, it's such a banger. I love club banger, so I'll leave it there. So, alright, Lenny, thank you so much. Podcast theme, boom. Sign up to get in touch with the RM podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:02:59):

Visit podcast.