Marc McClusky: Music as Emotional Math, Mixing Weezer, and Surviving Freelance Life

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast, brought to you by IK multimedia. Ik. Multimedia gives musicians access to the most famous and sought after guitar gear and studio effects of all time. With our Amplitude and T-Rex analog modeling software, now IK has created the ultimate all in one bundle for bands and engineers. The Total Studio two max, combining all of I K's award-winning amp effects sounds and more. It's everything you need to track, mix and master your music. Ik, multimedia, musicians first. For more info, go to www.rkmultimedia.com. And now your host. Eyal

Speaker 2 (00:00:46):

Levi. This show is brought to you by URM Academy, the world's best education for rock and metal producers. Every month on Nail the Mix, we bring one of the world's best producers to mix a song from scratch, from artists like Ms. Sugar, periphery a data, remember, and bring me the horizon, and we give you the raw multi-track so you can mix along. You'll also get access to Mix Lab, our collection of bite-sized mixing tutorials and portfolio builder Pro quality multi-tracks cleared for use in your portfolio. You can find out [email protected]. Welcome to the URM Podcast. I'm Eyal Levi. With me is Mr. Mark McClusky, a multi-platinum award-winning producer, mixer, and composer based in New York. He has multiple top five billboard albums and a number one album on iTunes. He's worked with artists such as Weezer, bad Religion, motion City soundtrack, Everclear, many, many others. Mark is also a composer and mixer for tv, median film. His work has been seen on ES pn, 30 for 30 has done work for Coke, sap, all kinds of stuff. And he owns and operates a drum sample virtual instrument company called Smack Drum Sample. So this guy does a lot of great work. Mark, thank you for being here.

Speaker 3 (00:02:04):

Thank you for having me.

Speaker 2 (00:02:05):

Yeah, my pleasure. I'm glad we could finally make it work.

Speaker 3 (00:02:08):

Yeah, this is great. I'm always happy to talk about

Speaker 2 (00:02:13):

Life. Well, alright, so speaking of life, can you tell me a little bit about how you got started in your life of audio? Was it your original, basically your original mission, or is it something that just kind of happened along the way?

Speaker 3 (00:02:30):

So I think it probably started for most people that end up in this field or a creative field is you're like a kid and some of your first memories that you have are basically of music or some type of thing that has to do with music. So as far back

Speaker 4 (00:02:47):

As,

Speaker 3 (00:02:48):

Yeah, exactly. Everybody kind of has that one thing that they always gravitated towards. For me, when I was a little kid, I could remember the first time I can remember ever getting an allowance or anything, I would just beg my mom or dad or my aunts or uncles or whoever was around to take me to the mall so I could go buy albums. And that's kind of where it started with me is buy Michael Jackson and Huey Lewis in the News is probably one of my favorite bands of all time, and they've really influenced me as a music lover so much so that whenever it is you're in elementary school and you can go to to have band class. So I wanted to go play the saxophone because of Hugh Lewis and the news, but it was the eighties, so everybody wanted to play the saxophone, so they had an abundance of saxophone players. So I got stuck in the clarinet. So I played the clarinet for a while and then finally moved over to saxophone, eventually started playing all the different saxophones that they have. And then when I started high school, the jazz band needed a drummer, so I volunteered to play drums. Oh, I also played a snare drum in the regular band too before that. So I started doing that.

(00:04:20):

You start to develop more of your own taste and you get more different genres of music. So I started gravitating towards punk a lot. I was a skateboard kid, so I started to writing my own songs, playing drums and jazz

Speaker 2 (00:04:35):

Band. So a punk musician that could actually play, I don't want to say real music, all real music, but

Speaker 3 (00:04:44):

Of course

Speaker 2 (00:04:45):

A punk musician who could actually play in a technical way and it was actually schooled in music. That's interesting.

Speaker 3 (00:04:52):

Yeah. Yeah. I mean that's been my thing is my whole family is super sciencey kind of brains. My sister's an engineer. She actually worked for NASA at one point and my dad. Oh, wow. Yeah, it's crazy. She's a very, very cool woman.

Speaker 2 (00:05:12):

Like a real rocket scientist.

Speaker 3 (00:05:14):

Yeah, yeah. Well, she deals in heat transfer, so if something blows up and they want to know why they put this paperwork on her desk and figure out why the heat went this way so you can make that not happen again. And now she works for this company that does nuclear power stuff and she flies all over the world going to nuclear power plants to help try to cool their nuclear reactors more efficiently.

Speaker 2 (00:05:46):

And that sounds like fascinating work. And not to be a bummer, but when you told me what she did and we're talking about the eighties, the first thing that came to mind was being in school and watching the challenger blow up. I think that anyone that went to school in the eighties remembers that as one of the, it's one of those things you remember exactly where you were and what you were doing and everything about it. At least for me, it was that way. And so thinking about what she does now, that's just fascinating and super important too.

Speaker 3 (00:06:25):

Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, she's an awesome sister. She's very cool, very smart girl, obviously kind. And I couldn't ask for a better one.

Speaker 2 (00:06:37):

So you're saying that your family are actually sciencey. Did that affect or influence your approach towards music and audio?

Speaker 3 (00:06:47):

Yeah, absolutely. I mean it very much to my core it did. I think about music is, its math. It's basically the emotional math of harmony. So humans, this is going to get ridiculous, but

Speaker 2 (00:07:06):

That's okay. Yeah,

Speaker 3 (00:07:07):

Humans, right? What do we do? Everything. Our whole existence is based off of frequency. Color is a frequency we see frequency. We hear frequency. How often we go take a shit as a frequency, how often we eat as a frequency

Speaker 2 (00:07:21):

It should be, should

Speaker 3 (00:07:22):

Be. Yeah. Right, right. Yeah. If everything's working right then, so your whole life is based off of how frequent something happens. So I never was the kind of guy, when I started writing music and songs for myself, I wasn't the kind of person I happened upon a riff or a thing and I was like, oh, cool, I'm going to use that. I would go, okay, cool, I'm going to use that. I want to understand why I feel the way I do with these certain notes so I can repeat this process and I can use this process to get to other feelings. So I always

Speaker 2 (00:07:58):

Thought that's fascinating.

Speaker 3 (00:08:01):

I mean, I still love it. I studied music pretty in depth. Your father, I think is a composer and a

Speaker 2 (00:08:09):

Conductor.

Speaker 3 (00:08:10):

Yeah, conductor. Yeah. I mean that's awesome. I love the orchestra. Orchestra is one of the most colorful things in the world. You can make so many beautiful colors with an orchestra. And if you, going back onto the math stuff, I don't know, I just think about it like that. I dunno if you remember in high school your science class project or whatever where you have your hypothesis and everything. So if you think about a song in that way, it's like, okay, so if I want somebody to cry or do this, then well, what are my variables? What are my constants and how do I fill in this equation to make them feel that way? And there's people out there that are theories there. I don't want to do the rules of it, and that's fine. You can totally do that. But either way, as a community of humans existing on earth, we all sort of have a reaction to certain harmonic movements, content or whatever you want to do, the tensions and releases of music.

Speaker 2 (00:09:16):

That brings up a really interesting point though, question I have. So I went to Berkeley and there were lots of professors there who viewed music as math and knew all the equations

Speaker 4 (00:09:30):

And

Speaker 2 (00:09:31):

Taught you them. And I totally agree with you that that is what music is. And they would talk about emotions much in the same way. However, while they knew this whole, I guess one side of music inside and out the technical side of the science, when I would hear their music, it would be the most boring, non emotion inspiring garbage I've ever heard in my life. And lots of times you hear about some of the best writers, music writers saying that they don't know any theory. So obviously they understand the equation on an intuitive level. So it's very rare, at least from what I've encountered, is for someone who understands both the math side of it and the emotional side of it, and then how to actually get them to work together. So what I'm wondering is how do you actually think about it? Do you hear it or do you visualize it? When you're thinking about creating evoking an emotion, how does that translate in your mind?

Speaker 3 (00:10:55):

So that's actually a really good question. I've never been asked that before. So I still very much coming from punk rock, which is some of the most basic on a musical level, if you're just looking at it for purely the math side of it is very basic. And I love Green Day. Green Day is one of my favorite bands of all time.

Speaker 2 (00:11:17):

So good.

Speaker 3 (00:11:17):

Yes, yes. I mean, and that's the thing is I feel that I don't take apart a Green Day song in my head harmonically until after I have a feeling. Right. And that feeling is what it is. And you got to remember, you can translate a feeling. Okay, so going back to what you were saying about people with boring music, it might be that the textures that they're writing this music with are not very interesting because a texture can change the feeling, right? You can play an E on a piano and just hammer the note softly, but that same note, and you hammer it as hard as you can, feels different. You don't feel the same. It's the same as punk drumming or something like that, or jazz drumming. When you beat the shit out of the drums, it's the same snare, but it feels different.

(00:12:16):

It just feels different. So I try to relate what I'm feeling and internalize that feeling. And then the process after that is to go, okay, why did I feel that way? What was happening with the color of the music, with the velocity of the music, with the harmony of the music, with the melody of the music, where was all that stuff coming together to make me feel that way? And then I try to use those things to build a tool bank or a toolbox of things that I can go to start there and then flavor it to taste, make it my own or make it whatever artist I'm working with or whatever picture I'm writing to or whatever it is. So I try to build a toolbox of general ideas where I know if I start here, I feel personally this way. I want to dance or I want to cry, or I want to do this. And then I start there and then I move forward and try things. And I'm not sitting there calculating the whole time. It's like, well, I know if I play the five chord here, we're definitely going back to one. I'm not thinking about that. I'm letting my emotion guide me, but then I'll review and understand what I did. Maybe there's a better option in there theoretically that I wouldn't do just playing it right? Because I'm not Herbie Hancock. I'm not the guy that can just play the emotion.

(00:13:47):

How do you say this? Right? So you reverse

Speaker 2 (00:13:49):

It. That is a pretty crazy skill though to I think the visceral, it's the visceral translation of emotion into sound in real time.

Speaker 3 (00:14:02):

It's

Speaker 2 (00:14:02):

Crazy.

Speaker 3 (00:14:02):

Yeah, I'm not that guy and that's okay. I know that I'm not that guy, but I feel that I'm the guy that can do something and feel a certain way and then look at it and go, okay, well we can enhance this by maybe trying this other thing or this other thing will work, blah, blah, blah, blah. And doing score studies helps a lot too. If you go through and et, everybody at the end of ET is like, man, fuck, that was awesome. So you go look at it. And so then you go, okay, well Lidian makes me feel that way. So how many different ways can I use? And then you play with Lidian,

Speaker 2 (00:14:39):

And I guess it goes back to textures. You can hear Lydian used on a lot of guitar music where it's just put you to sleep, but then you hear ET. And it's one of the most unbelievable works of music ever. So did you write this stuff down? I guess I assume you've been doing this for a long time. The analysis, is it something that you'd write down in English or would you write down in notation or just know it in your head? How would you go about the actual analysis?

Speaker 3 (00:15:15):

So yeah, I would just write, it's like a memory thing. There's not a book I have where I go and pull through. I just know how I feel when I listen to music. And I just very aware of that and I try to remember that feeling. And I try to also, another thing is I've always always allowed myself to listen to music I don't like, because once you find that you understand what the artist is trying to do, you can appreciate it on a certain level that you probably may have not come to a certain conclusion just because you turned it off too quick.

Speaker 2 (00:15:55):

So do you mean music that you don't like or music that you actively dislike?

Speaker 3 (00:16:00):

Yeah, I mean both. I'm not a huge weird jazz guy. I don't like atonal music.

Speaker 2 (00:16:08):

Neither am I.

Speaker 3 (00:16:09):

Yeah, I'm not into that. But still I will sit down and I'll listen to it because there's some value in there. Great. I'm not going to sit down and listen to it, but I know atonal music makes me feel really uncomfortable. So if I'm scoring something, I'm going to write something with an atonality to it to give people a really uncomfortable vibe. You know what I mean? There's value in that.

Speaker 2 (00:16:33):

Absolutely. An interesting situation. Not exactly what you're saying though. I totally think that you should learn music that you dislike for those reasons. Just recently on now, the mix, a year ago actually, we had a guy named Billy Decker on who's a amazing country mixer, had 14 number ones, and he's just like a mixed god basically

Speaker 5 (00:17:01):

For

Speaker 2 (00:17:02):

No other way to put it. And he mixes songs in like 45 minutes and they sound incredible. And I don't like Country man. I just don't. I never have. And there's just something about it that I don't like. It doesn't sit right with me. And Billy, if you're listening, I'm sorry. I love you and I love your work, but I'm just not a country fan. It's just not. And when we did Country Nail the Mix, we actually did five songs, and so I had to sit there with it there. I had no choice.

Speaker 4 (00:17:36):

And

Speaker 2 (00:17:37):

The appreciation that I got for that world, I don't think that it would affect the way that I write or anything, but this is still something tangible. The appreciation that I developed for that world and their level of standards for music, just the level of standards for what a good take is and what a good source sound is, that is something that I would take with me everywhere because I've never really heard a genre that was so consistently high quality across the board because I come from metal, and yes, sometimes in metal there's great musicians and great engineers, but for the most part it's actually, it's the art of making noise work.

(00:18:36):

And lots of the musicians are terrible. And I think it's pretty much the same in rock. You have to work with a lot of elements that aren't supposed to work. And there's something about, especially in metal, there's something about the whole metal world that's kind of unprofessional. And I mean, not to dog because where I come from, but it's just sometimes a lower bar at times. Not always. I mean, the best of the best are still the best of any genre are still world-class obviously. But just seeing in country how good, just your normal, but your baseline artists were because, so one of the artists was Diamond status, but then we had another artist that was just an up and comer and hadn't sold any records or anything. It kind of spanned the range. And there was no, it wasn't like the Diamond artist had an incredible recording and the Up and Comer had a demo quality. They were both top notch. And so only through sitting there through something that I wouldn't choose to listen to did that really sink in. And I think it's the same with it's the, with the artistic side of it, with writing, like you said.

Speaker 3 (00:20:01):

For

Speaker 2 (00:20:01):

Sure.

Speaker 3 (00:20:02):

I think it's so funny when you started talking about country, that's right where my mind went. I was like, man, those guys' records always sound so good,

Speaker 2 (00:20:10):

Crazy.

Speaker 3 (00:20:10):

They spend the time. And even on that note on that thing is not to get technical or start to talk about other stuff. But for me, and I'm sure you came up probably the same way, probably similar in age, is I started recording in my mom's garage on a boombox with Radio Shack mics in some shitty PVPA. So I had to sit there and move mics for hours and turn of volume, listen to it, go back, turn the volume again, because I couldn't post mix. There wasn't anything. It was two tracks and do a tape. So that's where I started doing,

Speaker 2 (00:20:50):

I had a walk, Ben.

Speaker 3 (00:20:51):

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And you learn how to listen. And I don't think a lot of people do that anymore. I say this often is there's brilliance and silence when you just stand back and observe and just take in what's happening and internalize it and then make a decision, you're going to get results. I would think. I would imagine, at least for me, I'll speak, you'll get results, better results quicker with more of a direction than sort of happening upon something. And don't get me wrong, I'm all for throwing stuff in a room and just throwing it up and then making things work later because then you'll get a really unique result, which is great, but you should learn how to have both sides of that coin. I think

Speaker 2 (00:21:44):

That reminds me, and I don't know if this is a common saying or something, it just reminds me of something one of my uncles said a long time ago, which is, and if this is a common phrase, and there's a better way to say it, I'm sorry. Please don't make fun of me on the internet, but if you're in a hurry, drive slow

(00:22:04):

So you don't wreck or get pulled over, basically. Yeah, exactly. I feel like it's the same idea. And what's interesting too about the recording that method through the Walkman is so I was a guitar player at that point. That's how I learned to make harmonies that actually worked. I mean, I understood harmony on paper because I studied it and it was taught to me and both through traditional studies and then my guitar teacher, but it wasn't until I started writing riffs and recording them on the Walkman and then hitting rewind and pressing play and having to come up with a harmony right then and there that I couldn't record. So it would have to be good enough to remember,

Speaker 4 (00:22:50):

Because

Speaker 2 (00:22:51):

I didn't have two tracks, it really, really focused my skills and my mind and made it to where I could come up with pretty good stuff pretty fast. And also, like you said before, you didn't write down, I guess the toolbox of ideas. You kind of internalized it, so kind of like a mental toolbox through recording, through that Walkman, it kind of created the same thing. It's almost like it worked on my instincts

Speaker 4 (00:23:28):

For

Speaker 2 (00:23:29):

Knowing what notes work and which notes. I don't know how else to describe it.

Speaker 5 (00:23:36):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:23:37):

Did you ever hear people trying to write harmonies? It could be vocal or

Speaker 5 (00:23:42):

On

Speaker 2 (00:23:42):

Guitar or whatever, and they're technically right, they're in key and all that. If you were in school, you could check off all the criteria, the boxes, but something's wrong and they can't hear what's wrong with it. There's just something fucked with it.

Speaker 3 (00:24:00):

Well,

(00:24:02):

I don't mean to interrupt you as soon as you said that. I can think of exactly things. So the common problems that I'll find again, and this goes back to just listening and going, okay, internalizing that, wait a minute, I see what's going on here is people, a lot of punk rock or rock bands or people that aren't necessarily schooled in the theory of music, they'll sing something and they're like, that works and it will work. But what they end up doing is they're not singing chord tones sometimes and they're singing extensions. And then what they'll do is they'll build their harmony based on what they know, which is like you do a third above, so then you have your third, but you're building the third off of an extension. So you'll, you're building these really bizarre chords that don't function.

Speaker 2 (00:24:57):

It becomes a schaumberg piece before you know it.

Speaker 3 (00:25:00):

And that's why they're like, well, it doesn't sound right, or something like that. Or another super common thing is right, so when I visualize an arrangement of a song, I picture a piano and you have your kick drum and your bass guitar obviously really low on your left hand, and then you have your baritone stuff. So whatever your guitar, and then you have whatever melody you're going to sing is usually somewhere in the middle, and then your high-end percussion and whatever leady stuff up top. And then, oh, I always do this with bands. I always say, now, how often do you see a piano player play the exact same spot as his hand, as his right hand, as the left hand? Are they ever playing on top of each other? And they're like, no. And I'm like, exactly. So you have too many things going on, and all your harmonies are becoming like half steps. So another common thing, if we just stick to C major and we're playing an F, right? And then somebody's singing a C, so you're singing the fifth of F, and then somebody sings the E, which is the third above the C, but now you're singing an F Major seven chord, which is fine, but you are

Speaker 2 (00:26:06):

In some context,

Speaker 3 (00:26:07):

Where you are in the keyboard is you might be right next to the octave guitar that you're playing that is literally a half step off. So you're going to get this really weird dissonance. So instead of spread out your harmony or move your harmony up to the F, and then you're going to have a stronger feeling and you're going to have more of a function in that chord.

Speaker 2 (00:26:27):

That brings up also that I think that, I don't want to sound, I don't want to make this sound too caveman, but I think that one of the things that sounds that people love about Green Day, for instance, or in a whole other sphere, the band Muse, is that

Speaker 3 (00:26:46):

I love Muse. Yeah, I

Speaker 2 (00:26:47):

Love, it's very, very selective. Once you hear a seventh in there anyways, to begin with, it's pretty much just triads used to the highest level possible, but those bands don't even, you'll hear a seventh chord here and there, but it's really, it's not just used to be used.

Speaker 3 (00:27:14):

No, exactly. They have purpose. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:27:16):

Exactly. And I guess Green Day is a little more simple than Muse, but still, I kind of see it the same way. They're just writing great songs and just going about it different ways, but when it comes down to it, they're just great songs that you can remember and that strike those emotional chords. And like you said before, it's not over complicated.

Speaker 5 (00:27:42):

No,

Speaker 2 (00:27:44):

And that's actually what I think the professors that I encountered did wrong. Yes, you can put that major seventh chord there, but should you, and that's the question that they're answering. Yeah. They're not asking themselves that. It's like just because you can or because it is technically right, doesn't mean that you should, and you need to ask yourself that, or I mean, not ask yourself in a yes or no, but ask yourself that emotionally when you're creating this stuff. I think.

Speaker 3 (00:28:15):

Yeah, I mean, I can 100% agree with you. I'll go back to what I said a little while ago is there's brilliance in silence. You don't have to do stuff just because you know how to do it. And I encourage, if anybody finds any of this stuff we're talking about, interesting, I encourage you guys to go listen to Jurassic Park, right? That thing, that little, literally that is a 1 4, 5 chord progression, and it's a triad, and it's awesome. If you look at a lot of John Williams music, they're not these crazy chords. They're not, they're basic triads. He's just really clever.

Speaker 2 (00:28:56):

Oh, yeah, for sure. It's very, very clever. It's another really simple, but super effective John Williams piece. I mean Jaws,

Speaker 3 (00:29:06):

Oh yeah, absolutely. Two notes. Bu bu, yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's exactly right. Obviously he knows everything you need to know, but he just picks the right notes. It doesn't matter how crazy it is, it's just make the right thing, and then obviously the texture, right? That same two notes on like a piccolo is not going to have the same effect as

Speaker 2 (00:29:32):

This. Definitely.

Speaker 3 (00:29:34):

Yeah. The same thing is this nautical very deep. It's just, you get it. But yeah, that's the thing. Texture is a huge thing about music

Speaker 2 (00:29:47):

That makes me think actually of something that is kind of opposite, but I think it's structurally complex, but the delivery is very simple. Also, John Williams, I know where he, I don't want to say ripped this from, but where he quoted it from in the Empire theme from Star Wars, I'm convinced that basically Kovich 10th Symphony second movement, yeah. Is basically the empire theme. And I mean, I guess harmonically is complex, but it's so bombastic in the way that it's approached, and I think that it speaks to that texture where if you had something that was, that harmonically dense, just played blandly or on the wrong instruments or whatever the case may be, it might just sound like noise to you. Whereas the way, and if anyone wants to hear it, just yeah, just go check out just kovich tense symphony movement number two, it's just heavy and bombastic, and it works, but it works because I think there's a simplicity in the way that it comes off in the dynamics. There's a simplicity there. I don't know how else to say it.

Speaker 3 (00:31:14):

Yeah, look, if you want your mind blown, just go listen to King's Row and you'll just hear where the tempt music for Star Wars came from. If you guys want to dig into John Williams, where he gets a lot of his ideas from is Holst. So the Planets has a lot of influence on him. And then King's Row, it's a movie from I think the forties that Ronald Reagan starred in, and it's literally in the first five or 20 seconds, you'll be like, oh my God. It's crazy. But yeah, I mean, look, the first rule in music, and at least in symphonic music and scoring, is steal, literally steal and then make it your own, because all the notes have been written. Just pick the ones you like.

Speaker 2 (00:32:04):

Well, what's really interesting about that is I know that some of the classical guys will, I guess, look down sometimes on someone like John Williams. I guess in some ways it's more simple than your traditional orchestral pieces or because it's stolen from there, but I don't see it that way. I see it as he modernized. He took those ideas that were great for a hundred years ago and delivered them in a modern, digestible fashion that obviously resonated with millions of people. And with some of these Star Wars or et, people will know those themes a hundred years from now, same way that the original works are somewhat still known. He took, there's something about the original orchestral music, and I think almost from any era that I can't help it now that it just, I don't want to say dated, but there's something in their structures that just feels antiquated. I don't want to say dated, because dated is something I think of when I think of eighties metal,

Speaker 4 (00:33:16):

And

Speaker 2 (00:33:19):

I don't want to talk down on orchestral music because it's, you think about things that people have created that are great, like spaceships or skyscrapers, symphonies are up there with that, but there's something in the delivery and the structure that is just somewhat, it just feels old. And someone like John Williams has taken lots of those classics and just redone them in a way that works for modern years, and that's quite a talent.

Speaker 3 (00:33:47):

Yeah, I can agree with you on 90% of that. I think what sort of how it made it palatable for people and influenced people like me when I was a kid is you fall in love with the movie, and the music is such

Speaker 2 (00:34:01):

That too,

Speaker 3 (00:34:02):

A big part of the movie that you fall in love with the music right back to the future. That theme is great, and it's not really a traditional classic progression or anything, but the idea of taking these kind of, I mean, it's almost like what's happening now is you're playing pop music with an orchestra, essentially,

Speaker 4 (00:34:26):

Right?

Speaker 3 (00:34:26):

Not as complex. I'm one of the luckiest guys, so this is a little offshoot. I work with a film composer named Robert Miller, and if anybody out there knows who Aaron Copeland is, he was a super famous

Speaker 2 (00:34:41):

Oh, yeah,

Speaker 3 (00:34:42):

Yeah, American composer. He composed fan for the Common Man. Yeah, that was his Robert's mentor. Robert's taken me under his wing and showing me the ropes, and he's got his big cool culty movie that everybody loves is Teeth. He scored Teeth. I don't know if you've ever seen that

Speaker 2 (00:35:00):

Actually. Yeah,

Speaker 3 (00:35:01):

Yeah. Then last year we did Lucy Kay's new film that didn't come out. It was great. Robert wrote these really cool waltz's for it recorded in Abbey Road and is a cool process to see and be a part of. But yeah, so I'm super lucky that I get to learn from this guy and get to go on this little thing with him. But to answer your question is that's kind of how, because a true synchronist, he comes from a symphonic world, and that's how he kind of talks a lot and he looks up to John Williams. John Williams is a synchronist first, and he just happened to become a film composer, so a lot of his work in film is easier to digest, I think probably because of the film, but if you really just look at the score, it'ss clever music, it's really smart. It's really,

Speaker 2 (00:35:58):

Really smart. It's very clever.

Speaker 3 (00:35:59):

Something

Speaker 2 (00:36:00):

I've started to do recently, which I encourage people to do for nothing else, it'll give you a different experience watching movies is when a movie comes out that you want to watch, get the soundtrack first

Speaker 5 (00:36:14):

And

Speaker 2 (00:36:15):

Listen to it over and over and over again, and then go see the movie and knowing the music before what's happening in the movie, it's a whole other experience, and it can actually make a movie that's not that great. Way cooler, more interesting. Yeah. For instance, I don't think Batman versus Superman was that great of a movie. It's okay, but I think a lot of people agree, but I got the Han Zimmer score well in advance of seeing it, and it's so good, especially the Wonder Woman theme. It's just so good. And then when it happens, when those themes come up on screen, you just know them so well that it makes the movie way better and it's different. It's a different experience than if you saw the movie and heard the soundtrack for the first time at the same time.

Speaker 5 (00:37:13):

Oh, I agree.

Speaker 2 (00:37:13):

Yeah. I'm not sure how to describe the difference, but it is very, very different. Or Man of Steel was another one, the Superman movie, that's a great soundtrack, but I heard the soundtrack first, and so then when I saw the actual movie, it hit in a different way, whereas I don't think I would've definitely liked it, liked that movie if I had just seen it without hearing the soundtrack first.

Speaker 3 (00:37:40):

Yeah, no, I mean, I always buy all the movies that I know I'm going to see. Usually as soon as the soundtrack comes out, they usually come out two weeks before I think I usually buy them just because Curious and I do like to see, I try to see what I think the cues are and then see what actually happens in the movie to be like, oh, okay, I see what he did with that. That's cool.

Speaker 2 (00:38:07):

And how often are you right

Speaker 3 (00:38:09):

With the thematic material? I mean, it's usually easy to identify the hero and the villain,

(00:38:18):

But the subtle stuff is, I mean, I'm never right. You know what I mean? Like I don't know what's going to happen in the movie, but it's fun to sort of, okay, so if he's using this theme and this theme together and he's kind of varying it in this way, I wonder what's happening in the scene. Maybe this is happening, then I'll see it. And it's usually never like what I'm thinking, but it gets your mind turning on how you can see variations being used and how you can have two themes play with each other and all that stuff.

Speaker 2 (00:38:48):

One thing I've always wondered a little off topic, but I've, it's always fascinated me is when you see a movie, I am a Han Zimmer fan, so I'm just going to bring up Inception. You see a movie like Inception and the soundtrack is such a huge part of it. I don't want to say it makes the movie, but it's definitely a huge part of what's awesome about it and why it's memorable and powerful. But Christopher Nolan had to have that movie in his head without that music, and so I wonder, I just wonder what is going through a director's head or the writer's head when they're creating the movie and they don't have the inception theme yet. It's interesting.

Speaker 3 (00:39:37):

Yeah, I think it's funny that you mentioned that movie. I don't quote me, maybe we need to do some research, but I think he had that before they started filming, and I think they played it on set during certain scenes. One of his movies is like that, and I want to say it's inception, but I might be wrong. Don't quote me on that.

Speaker 2 (00:39:59):

Of course, it would be the one I mentioned, but it makes perfect sense because that sound soundtrack is so, it's like in the DNA, it really actually is in the DNA of that movie apparently, what they use as the kick to wake up out of the dreams, the French song is what he built the rest of the soundtrack off of.

Speaker 4 (00:40:23):

So

Speaker 2 (00:40:24):

Everything in the soundtrack is in the DNA of the visuals.

Speaker 3 (00:40:30):

Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:40:31):

And the story.

Speaker 3 (00:40:32):

I mean, that's the dream thing. Well, Christopher Nolan and Hans Marie have such a long relationship. The thing is, the few films that I've been a part of, and I do a lot of media composing, so the earlier you can get in to talk about story and characters and what's going to happen, the better because you can help scenes in a way that you can't necessarily do after it's sort of locked picture. They're almost done. And I like collaborating, I guess is what I'm trying to say. Collaboration is great. You can sway a director and you can see something that he or she wasn't seeing before with this idea of a theme or what is this guy thinking in this scene? Oh, well, if I score it like this, and it might make him go, oh, if you're doing that kind of thing, wow, I can open up this other idea here. And I don't know, it gets into a cool thing. So the earlier in the process, the better for me, and

Speaker 2 (00:41:42):

I see a parallel there for production, just straight up music production with bands, same way that how certain songs mix themselves almost because the arrangement and the songwriting was done so Craftfully

(00:41:57):

Like they were done so well, and with the mix in mind that it just kind of comes together in a way that, in a way that say that somebody mixes a song that they didn't produce and maybe the arrangement's not wonderful or whatever, they can still pull off a great mix, no question. I mean, obviously lots of great mixes have been done that way. So there's obviously it works, but there's something magical that happens when, not to use the word inception, but to use the word inception, it's all there from the inception of the production and the song. Absolutely. And so I guess I never thought of it, but it makes perfect sense that if you could do that in a movie, you would end up with something that is just way more integrated and powerful.

Speaker 3 (00:42:48):

Yep. You're a hundred percent. And on the production note is whenever I work with artists, bands usually either love working with me or they really don't like working with me. You really have to think about it. I'm going to be your extra member, whatever, your fifth or sixth or third or whoever it is. And exactly what you said is I love to get in there and just say, cool, you have a song, your demos, I don't care how long you spent on 'em. Give me an acoustic guitar and a vocal, and we're going to start this thing from scratch, where if the song doesn't rock on an acoustic guitar and a vocal, you know what? We're not making anything here. We're just fucking around. Production's only cool. And you won't ever have a record that people want to listen to over and over again, because after the excitement of how cool the production sounds is gone, you're left with nothing. You're left with a shell, so you need to build the thing that exists, and then the production should just amplify the thing that already rocks.

Speaker 2 (00:43:52):

It's almost like, not almost, but I think it definitely is that if you get that part right, where it's built from the ground up the right way, it's almost like you don't need as sparkly of a final mix and master. It doesn't have to be as five star luxe to become a classic. And it's almost like if the song's not that good without that top notch a hundred percent sparkly mix, there's nothing that'll save it.

Speaker 3 (00:44:32):

Yeah, it's true,

Speaker 2 (00:44:32):

Basically.

Speaker 3 (00:44:33):

It's true. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:44:34):

Now if you can get both together,

Speaker 3 (00:44:37):

That's what you want, right?

Speaker 2 (00:44:39):

Yeah.

Speaker 3 (00:44:39):

Yeah. I mean that's why all these huge popstars have literally hundreds, if not a thousand songs submitted to make a 10 song record, and then they spend six months to a year making 10 songs or whatever, 12 songs just crafting it over and over and over and over again until it's like, okay, wow, that sounds cool and the song's really good, and now I think we can actually sell a hundred thousand copies or whatever,

Speaker 2 (00:45:03):

Man, pop production and mixes are so, can I just say that they're so incredible and I know that

Speaker 5 (00:45:11):

Everybody

Speaker 2 (00:45:12):

Is probably going to be a, well, of course they are, but I mean really the pop stuff has always blown me away by how sophisticated it is too, and I think in lots of ways it doesn't get that genre, and it's hard to say that genre. It's always evolving, but I guess the genre of pop does not get the respect it deserves from legitimate musicians side of the fence.

Speaker 3 (00:45:44):

That's so dumb. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:45:46):

It is so stupid because I think that's the hardest stuff to make. I agree. Because of the simplicity.

Speaker 5 (00:45:53):

Yes.

Speaker 2 (00:45:53):

Like you were saying before with the simplicity to get something that's that simple yet that unique,

Speaker 5 (00:46:00):

Yet

Speaker 2 (00:46:00):

That powerful another level.

Speaker 3 (00:46:04):

Yeah, I'm with you. I say that all the time if I'm working. So one of my favorite things to do when I work with a band is I go, tell me three bands. You want to knock off the charts. And the reason why I do that is it tells me what their goals are really, right? So if they name three warp tour bands, I go, okay, cool. We don't have to be super anal about things because their aspirations are to be a warp tour band, so they're not going for the top 40. So if they name bands or artists that are top 40 artists, then you go, okay, wow, that's informative. Then we need to really talk. Because if that's your competition, you really need to think about all these other things that you are going to have to do and have to compete with to really do it.

(00:46:50):

There's a reason why, like you said, pop music is what it is, is because it's so simple and so well crafted for what it is, it's brilliant. It's the top of their game for that sort of thing. But yeah, I mean, God and I tell the artists all the time because everybody always goes, oh, stupid's so easy. And I'm like, man, if it's so easy, show me how to try it, make it and tell me how to do it, because I want to know. I think it's cool. I love pop music. It's such a great thing for what it is. It's great. Just like orchestra music is great for what it is. I love all of it, and I try to, like I said, I try to take it all in and learn from it and figure out stuff. One of my favorite things is Mr.

(00:47:41):

Brightside, right? This is a great thing about texture. If somebody wants to understand, if they're not clueing in on, what I mean by texture is that melody for that verse is one note or maybe two notes. I think he goes down a little bit, right? Dumb it out of my cage. I got to that, right? So it's like fucking one note, but his texture in his voice is what is selling it, and that's where the genius lies in his delivery, not the notes. So I don't know, but I love that because it's just so simple. It's so simple, but it's such an emotionally powerful song.

Speaker 2 (00:48:21):

Absolutely. So how you're doing it rather than what you're doing is really what matters. And what's funny, I've always told people that doggone genres or say that something's easy is if you really think it's that easy, what you should do is go to a local open mic night

Speaker 4 (00:48:40):

And

Speaker 2 (00:48:41):

Wait for the artist that's trying to do that style you're talking shit about. And that's basically what you're going to find there is the average level of people trying

Speaker 4 (00:48:58):

A

Speaker 2 (00:48:58):

Certain genre and how bad that sounds is basically what the average person would

Speaker 5 (00:49:05):

Create with

Speaker 2 (00:49:05):

Pop. And so if the actual stuff that you hear the pro stuff is like 300 times better, then just think about how much more difficult it would be to create that.

Speaker 5 (00:49:19):

I agree.

Speaker 2 (00:49:19):

So yeah, just go listen to the local version and Open Muck Night, and that'll be a good gauge

(00:49:26):

For how difficult it is to create a certain genre of music. So speaking of production, it sounds to me like you do get very, very involved from the ground up, like we've said. How did you get to the point where bands allowed you to do that? I know a lot of people listening are, some are well on in their careers, but some are at the very beginning or beginning middle to where they'll make a suggestion and they're dealing with a lot of pushback or bands don't necessarily want to go the distance with them. How did you get to the point where that you had the ability or the clout or the leverage or the respect to be able to get bands to go along with you?

Speaker 3 (00:50:21):

That's a good question. So everything for me was really organic. There was never a plan. I never wanted to be a music producer. I'm not saying that I don't love my job, but I never sat down and was like, I'm going to be a music producer. For me, what happened was I was in high school, so I started playing in bands. I started writing my own songs. One of my friends, my best friend, Tom Bruno, who actually lives in Atlanta, started playing drums in a band called Nuclear Saturday with me. And then we got signed to Vagrant Records for a hot minute. We were on the five years on the street cd. I was recording all of our demos, and they were some of the better ones that sounded in town. And then other bands started approaching me, asking me if I could record them. And then I did, and I was working at Starbucks, and then I started charging the bands, I don't even remember, 300 bucks for five songs or something. And then those bands started getting signed, and then I got more work. So then I quit my job at Starbucks. And then

Speaker 2 (00:51:38):

Yes,

Speaker 3 (00:51:39):

Yes, exactly. And then it was super organic and I just started working with these other bands, and as those bands got signed, labels started contacting me managers or lawyers, and then I started recording those bands, and then they would get signed and it kind of just went from there. And then as far as your question on how did bands trust me, I guess, and I hope this doesn't make me sound arrogant or anything, this is not said with any arrogance is my suggestions were right.

Speaker 2 (00:52:05):

I don't think it sounds arrogant. I mean, it's interesting that your suggestions were right. Obviously if the bands liked it and they went on to have success, then you can't argue with the suggestions. But then also I think that the way, and I've never worked with you, but I'm just guessing that the way that you deliver your suggestions is with a hundred percent confidence just based on the way you said that. And I think that that makes a big difference as to if an artist is going to take the ride with you on something that could be altering their baby.

Speaker 3 (00:52:45):

Yeah, I think, and that helps me actually think about this a little more, is I think, right, the confidence that you're feeling from it is because I could hear it in my head before I said it. So maybe a good suggestion for people is don't say something because you think it say that because you know it. You know that this is going to make it better, and you're going to build trust with the artist. If the first suggestion works good, they're going to go, okay, wow, that's actually a pretty cool idea. Then you're going to go, Hey, man, I'm kind of hearing it like this. Can I see your guitar for a second? And they're like, yeah, and then you play it, or whatever it is, and then you hand it back and they're like, oh, wow, that is cooler. Okay, let's keep going. And the artist producer relationship in my mind is, like I said, it's a collaboration.

(00:53:38):

I'm not the guy trying to change you. I'm the guy in the band that's trying to make this thing even better with you. Nobody succeeds by themselves. Everybody succeeds together. The best records I've ever made are not because of me, it's because of all of us. We're in a room together and we all sat down and nobody had an ego, and everybody's opinion was valuable. And we would try, everything didn't work, but we tried it and we experimented and we took the time. And it wasn't like this one guy's master plan. It was, okay, let's create something for the world to enjoy. Let's do this. This is going to be fun.

Speaker 2 (00:54:17):

Hey, everybody, if you're enjoying this podcast, then you should know that's brought to you by URM Academy UM Academy's mission is to create the next generation of audio professionals by giving them the inspiration and information to hone their craft and build a career doing what they love. You've probably heard me talk about Nail the Mix before, and if you're remember, you already know how amazing it is. At the beginning of the month, nail the Mix members get the raw multi-tracks to a new song by artists like Bringeth Horizon, ra, asking Alexandria Machine Head and Papa Roach among many, many others. Then at the end of the month, the producer who mixed it comes on and does a live streaming walkthrough of exactly how they mix the song on the album and takes your questions live on air. You'll also get access to Mix Lab, our collection of dozens of bite-sized mixing tutorials that cover all the basics as well as Portfolio Builder, which is a library of pro quality multi-tracks cleared for your use in your portfolio.

(00:55:16):

So your career will never again be held back by the quality of your source material. And for those who really want to step up the game, we have another membership tier called URM Enhanced, which includes everything I already told you about, and access to our massive library of fast tracks, which are deep, super detailed courses on intermediate and advanced topics like gate staging, mastering low end and so forth. It's over 40 hours of content. And man, let me tell you, this stuff is just insanely detailed. Hence, members also get access to one-on-one office hour sessions with us and Mix Rescue, which is where we open up one of your mixes on a live video stream, fix it up, and talk you through exactly what we're doing at every step. So if any of that sounds interesting to you, if you're ready to level up your mixing skills and your audio career, head over to URM academy.com to find out more.

(00:56:12):

Man, that translates, that idea translates for me also in business big time, especially now, my partners in URM are very, very strong-minded dudes, and they're very, very smart. So you can't have shitty ideas. I mean, you can, nobody bats a thousand. But still, it forces me to have to be totally certain when I bring something to the table. And the way that I do that is it's a feeling really, I mean, there's definitely a bunch of data and metrics you can look at, but honestly, even with business, when it comes down to it, even if an idea to me looks good on paper, if it doesn't feel right, I don't even bring it up. And there's oftentimes the ideas I've gotten through that we've all agreed on that have done really well for us, involved a certain amount of risk, and there was no real data.

(00:57:17):

I had to explain why I felt comfortable. It was feelings and was, I feel that this is going to be successful for this and this and this reason. But it wasn't like because this percentage of people clicked on this or anything like that, it was definitely much more of an emotional thing. And when I felt that way that strongly about it, it's almost infectious to where it was way easier to get the dudes and the rest of the team to go along with me and to get behind the idea. And the same goes when they present an idea, if they feel half-assed about it, I can tell. And it's very easy to shoot down. Not that that's what we're trying to do, but part of why you work with people isn't just for the great ideas so that you have partners to shoot down the bad ideas and the confidence makes that way easier or more difficult. I guess it made me think of the difficulty of working with people who are super confident about bad ideas and what a nightmare that turns into.

Speaker 5 (00:58:29):

Yeah. But

Speaker 2 (00:58:32):

I feel like that's not as common in really successful projects, obviously.

Speaker 3 (00:58:37):

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, and I think on that note is like, look, you don't learn from success. You learn from failure. So the more things you can try, you're going to fail more often, and you're going to get somewhere cooler faster through that if you never try anything and just do the one thing. Do you know what the definition of insanity is?

Speaker 2 (00:59:01):

Do the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

Speaker 3 (00:59:05):

Exactly. So don't be insane. Don't be crazy. Don't be so obsessive about a thing. Allow things to fail and allow things to grow and allow things to change. Because once you accept that, you're going to see this thing that started at point A and now it's a point B, and it's going to be a lot cooler. You just have to be willing to accept that journey.

Speaker 2 (00:59:32):

But that's not a natural position to take. I think it's the right position it take, but I think it takes work to be able to, it takes mental work and personal work to be able to get to the point where you're comfortable failing. And I mean, that's a very deep thing. And the most successful people I know in any field all say it that you need to be willing to fall flat on your face. But I think the reason that so many people say it is because it's not that easy.

Speaker 4 (01:00:13):

You

Speaker 2 (01:00:13):

Don't just wake up comfortable with falling flat on your face. Falling on your face hurts. If you've ever done it, it's not a fun experience. So did you have to work on that or did it come more naturally to you, or is this something that evolved over time? So

Speaker 3 (01:00:32):

I mean, part of that I think is part of my personality just from the sciencey elements or that whole idea for my family is like, why do you poke the bear? You poke the bear to see what happens. Okay, well now if I poke him at this other spot, what's going to happen? So I've always liked that idea to what's going to happen. I don't know. Let's find out. And then on the other side of that is I can think of, there was one year where I could remember writing songs and the songs I would kind of hoard and I would go, well, I can't do this because then if I release it, then it's like, I won't ever be able to have this song again, and this might be the best song. So I would sort of hold this stuff. And then one year I remember I was like, I'm going to write 200 songs this year.

(01:01:29):

I'm going to write a song a day essentially, is what I told myself and I did. And I sat down and every day I would write a song. They weren't all great, but I just did it. And what that taught me is like, oh yeah, there's always another idea. And if there's not, then you need to figure out why there's not another idea, and then get that idea and keep it going, because if there's not another idea, there's something else going on. So you can always write more music. There's always something else that you're not doing. And I would challenge myself. I would write a song with four chords. I would write a song with three chords. I would write a song, two chords, and then I wrote a song with one chord. And then that's where you get creative. Put yourself in these boxes. That's where creativity lies. It's easy to make anything with everything. You just grab stuff and you make it. But if you have these barriers, you can't do this thing, then you have to be creative. And that's where other people are going to find it more interest in it too, because they're going to be like, wow, wait, I'm not bored. And it's just this little, how did you do that?

Speaker 2 (01:02:33):

That reminds me of, I guess, someone I used to play with in a band. And hey, if any of my ex band members are listening, this isn't about you. Because I've played with 50 people, so

(01:02:46):

Could be anyone. So I hope I don't start getting hate texts, but so there's this guy that didn't write that much. I was the main writer in every one of my bands. I was a better writer than a player. So I try to surround myself with better players to make up for that. And so I wrote say 90% of the music in all of my bands pretty much. And because of that, I'd say that I got used to ditching about 65% of everything I wrote just got trashed maybe more. And so I got totally comfortable with almost all of my ideas being expendable. I mean, every once in a while I would feel super strongly about one and I'd fight for it till the death, and that usually would bear some fruit that would usually end up being one of the more popular songs. Kind of back to what we were saying before about the confidence, but would just in general, I would just be okay with ditching my own ideas.

(01:03:49):

We'd go into a production with a producer and he would cut out entire sections from my songs and said to be okay with it. And I became okay with it. But there was this one guy that I used to play with who he'd write two songs a year. And so he'd really be into those two songs and he'd present them if you wanted to make any changes, say that even if he only wrote two songs, I still would want to put it through the same scrutiny as if it was one of my own. It doesn't matter. Doesn't matter who's presenting it, it's still going to go through the same quality control. But because he had way less output as a writer, every one of those riffs or parts meant that much more to him. So that made it that much more difficult to cut out the bad rifts, which I thought was a very negative thing. And you contrast that to where I've either produced or played with guys who are just prolific writers, writing, writing, writing, just always coming up with something they typically have no problem with. You don't like something cool, we'll change it unless they feel super strongly about it. But

(01:05:10):

That's not as often as you would think.

Speaker 3 (01:05:13):

Yeah, no, you're right. I like the super strong thing. You made me think of this thing that I can, maybe this is good advice for somebody maybe is I was watching, I love Young Frankenstein, and I was watching a behind the scenes and they were talking about the scene with the Monster and Dr. Frankenstein where they're doing the tap dancing bit. And Mel Brooks was like, this is stupid. This is not funny. We should not put this in the movie. And then Gene Wilder got really upset and fought for it and was like, no, this is funny. You have to believe me. And Mel Brooks was like, okay, if you're this passionate about this thing, then I'm just not seeing what you're seeing and we'll leave it in the movie. And that's arguably one of the funniest moments in that movie. So when I heard him say that, I made a mental note to always be that guy that if somebody is fighting for something, then I'm missing the thing. It's not them, right? It's not the song or it's not whatever. It's not the production. I'm the one missing it. So I need to let them have this thing because clearly I'm not getting it, and maybe I'll get it later

Speaker 2 (01:06:34):

Wise, very, very wise. I'm sure that that's yielded some great results.

Speaker 3 (01:06:39):

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Some of the coolest stuff because look, I'm not the end all be all. Nobody is. And the sooner you can accept that, you can open yourself up to more experiences and being wowed by something you never thought you could be wowed by, which is really cool.

Speaker 2 (01:06:58):

Yeah, absolutely. So we've been talking for a while and I want to make sure I get this stuff in before we go. So we've got some questions from our listeners for you.

Speaker 3 (01:07:11):

Oh, okay.

Speaker 2 (01:07:12):

That I'd like to throw at you. So here's one from Matt Sandstrom, which is Hurley by Weezer is one of my favorite albums. But how did you manage to make songs ruling me and hang on, sounds so poppy and fun, yet Alive and not Overproduced. Also, I'd like to know about what it was working on an album as one of three mixers. What level of coordination and communication was there between you and the others?

Speaker 3 (01:07:37):

That's a good question. So there was no communication between the others, other mixers and me. It was kind of like at that time, so Breck Herwitz was managing me at that time, and basically, I don't think he gave me the whole record. I think the plan was to give it out to a few people. So the songs that he fed me were, oh, geez, I don't even remember ruling me Hang on, and three or four others. And we didn't talk to each other. It was kind of like, let's just make these songs and I encourage people to do this, right? Some people are like, well, it's got to sound like a record. Records don't sound like records. Records are just a collection of songs. You got to make the song speak and do the best it can be, and then it will sound good, and hopefully the other mixers on the thing did a great job and then everybody sounds good next to each other and you never question, is this a different mixer?

(01:08:34):

Is this a different recording? Is this a different whatever? It doesn't really matter, at least in my opinion. Then as far as making those sound so raw, but poppy at the same time, I remember hang on having two drum kits in it, and the verse is different than the chorus. And again, I'm going to accept whatever I'm given, so I'm not going to make that song into what I wish it was recorded or wish it was. I'm going to take what I have, I'm going to think about it and go, okay, well now I have, okay, I'm remembering exactly what it was. I had a mono room mic and a kick drum track for the verse, and then the chorus was a full drum set, full micd, the whole shebang. So instead of going, oh man, I need to get these drums, or I need to put in all these samples and do all this other stuff, I was like, okay, cool.

(01:09:35):

This is what the cards are dealt. This is what I'm going to do. I'm going to make all the guitars mono, I'm going to make the kick drum. Everything's going to be mono in the verse. And when the chorus happens, I'm going to pan everything as wise as it can be. I'm going to make the stereo rooms be really noticed by this big drum hit right before it comes in and everything splits out, and then the next verse, everything's going to get small and mono again. So that was my plan, and that's kind of how that song, I guess I would relate that with Super Raw is this versus Super Raw, and then the chorus kind of comes in and it explodes and gets a little polished, big open wide sound and then ruling me that was, yeah, I'm sorry, I'm thinking about it. Yeah, I mean, I think a similar kind of thing with that is try to make the verses as tight and verse as possible and try to blow up the chorus.

(01:10:32):

And I think a lot of that record was recorded in a lot of different locations and quickly. And again, my philosophy is like if you have a crappy sounding kick drum, if it sounds bad and you can't get that bad thing to sound as good as the best sounding thing, then the best sounding thing is the bad thing. So that way you have to make everything else work with the worst sounding thing. So whatever it is, but I know this sounds counterintuitive, but if you do that, then your mix will sound good because everything relates to each other. So yeah, I try to take everything that I've given and again, make it, that's what I got, so I'm just going to make this thing rock, and you're going to get a more unique sound. You're not going to be able to reproduce that thing over and over and over again, like drum samples.

(01:11:24):

I own a drum sample company, I use drum samples. I'm not going to say that I don't, I do, but I like the idea of not getting a mix and already killing all the drums and putting it in my samples. I use samples for reinforcement because you don't want a bunch of records to sound the same over and over and over and over again. You want a unique sound for each record, and you have to do that by capturing lightning in a bottle by mic choice and how you record it or how you mix it, or don't just put all the stock stuff you normally do. You know how to do that one thing, don't do that. Don't have your sound regardless, because you're going to make certain mixed choices that somebody else wouldn't make, and that's your sound. It's not about the tonality of things. That's kind of like a way I say.

Speaker 2 (01:12:12):

That's a great answer.

Speaker 3 (01:12:13):

Well, thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:12:14):

That's a great answer. It makes me think of something that I always tell people when they ask about how do you develop your unique sound, whether it's as a musician or producer, and my opinion is don't even really worry about it. Just try to get good

Speaker 4 (01:12:35):

Because

Speaker 2 (01:12:36):

Your unique sound will come through no matter what, because

Speaker 3 (01:12:40):

It's you,

Speaker 2 (01:12:41):

Are you. Yeah,

Speaker 3 (01:12:41):

Exactly. You're unique. You are the anomaly. You're the thing that is only one of, and how you think about it, and it goes back to again, just don't go on autopilot when you start mixing or tracking or recording. Be you, be a human being. Be the human being that you are. And if you allow yourself to be human and think about things and don't just go to a stock thing that you normally do and go, okay, wait, I know I want this kind of guitar sound, but that texture, if I can get this kind of texture, it might make somebody feel more like what the song is about, and that's what I want to create. So now I got to figure out how to get that texture, whatever that is.

Speaker 2 (01:13:25):

And that's actually my counter argument. What I'm trying to get mixers to come on, nail the mix. Sometimes their objection is, well, I don't want to give out my secrets and I understand, however, I completely, completely disagree.

Speaker 5 (01:13:42):

Yeah, me too.

Speaker 2 (01:13:42):

Because the one thing that they cannot give out, no matter how hard they tries their brain and their ears that are attached to that brain. And so no matter if someone watches the entire nail the mix session and goes through and screenshots every single plug and move and tries to recreate it, it's not going to same. It's still not going to work. And we know that. We know that because we've done so many, many of them now that if, so actually before we started having guests on, myself and my partners were the ones who did it. And so I don't know if you've heard of one of my partners, Joey Sturges?

Speaker 4 (01:14:25):

Yeah, of course.

Speaker 2 (01:14:27):

So you know that he basically was behind a whole genre of heavy music that he created his own sound. And so you would think that with the amount of people who have tried to imitate it or who think that it's just presets or something who have watched him on nail the mix multiple times, you would think that they would be able to just make mixes as good as his, that sound just like his, if it really was, if that's really all there was to it. But it's not.

Speaker 5 (01:14:56):

No.

Speaker 2 (01:14:56):

And so it doesn't matter, really, all you're doing by doing nail and mix is showing people how you would solve a particular problem. That's right. But then how they then translate that into their own workflow is a whole separate topic. So alright, here's another question. This one is from Renar and Magnusson, another two part question. So what are some common mistakes or bad habits among the up and coming bands or artists you work with in their songwriting, work ethic and practicing, and how much creative input do you have when working with bands like Bad Religion and Weezer who seem to have a very strong creative vision?

Speaker 3 (01:15:37):

Yeah, so no creative input for Bad Religion. No, no, no. That'd be Brett, those guys. Yeah, no, those guys know what they're, I'm not going to suggest

Speaker 2 (01:15:50):

Something. Hey, sometimes the best thing you can do is get out of the way.

Speaker 3 (01:15:55):

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. And same with Weezer. I mixed Weezer and I produced a couple songs for Us. Rivers does this Japanese thing with my friend Scott, who used to play in Alistair. It's called Scott Rivers, and I've produced a couple songs for them. But the creative input is for those size bands. I mean, they are who they are because of their creative input. You don't really need to guide people like that. I'd imagine. It's like Muse is the same thing. You're not going to be like, Hey, Matthew Bellamy, do this thing. He's going to give you a look. And it'd be like, I think I know what I'm doing here.

Speaker 2 (01:16:36):

I couldn't imagine trying being the guy on that gig and trying to tell him what to do or something.

Speaker 3 (01:16:44):

Right.

(01:16:46):

And to give the other side of that is bands that size and that caliber what I think and that talented, they have a clear vision. I think what you can bring to the table is texture. You can bring in a way that you record something or layer something or think about their production that they might not be seen. So that's how you can have your influence in creating a sound of a record for them. Again, I know I keep using this word like texture. It's so important. The color of a song, it really matters. And then what was the first part of that question?

Speaker 2 (01:17:28):

What are some common mistakes or bad habits among the up and coming bands or artists you work with in terms of songwriting or work ethic or practicing?

Speaker 3 (01:17:37):

So the first thing I usually see is, so my wife, she has a saying, and it's totally true, out of the 17 years I've been doing this professionally, she can be like, that band's going to make it and make it. Could be get a record deal or do well or whatever. Not the biggest band in the world. And she can tell which bands are going to do that and which bands aren't. And she says, she has a saying is the bands that aren't going to do it, their ethic is they're waiting for a letter. So there are these bands that come in and they go, man, we are going to do it. We're going to do all this stuff. We're working with a producer. So in their minds they're like, we're a real band. And they just sit back. They don't put in the time, they don't put in the ethic, the work ethic to try to write a new part or make their songs better than what they are at that moment.

(01:18:27):

And they just sit there and they think one day they're going to open their mailbox and they're going to get a letter and it's going to say, congratulations, you're a rockstar. And that never happens. One of the hardest working bands I ever worked with that I saw the whole thing happened was Ludo. And they started out as a local band in St. Louis. And St. Louis is not a big city. It's not famous for being a great birthplace for rock bands or whatever. So you can't argue that they were at the right place. They just played shows and wrote great songs and just worked their asses off. They basically said, we're not going to work jobs, we're only going to make money through music. How can we do that? And then that's what they did. And we did demos and they got signed to Island. We had a top 10 single and they were great. I wish they didn't take a hiatus or broken up or whatever they're now. But those guys are super talented, great guys. And it just shows you just work hard and just keep going and don't settle. Just don't settle. You can always get better. If you're not crafting your song up until the time that recording button goes on, then you're really not doing everything you can to make it great.

Speaker 2 (01:19:40):

I totally agree with you, with everything you just said. It makes me think of that sometimes. I've just heard sometimes lots I've heard that people think that when you have a successful artist or band that somehow they got lucky or it was handed to them or they had a rich parent or something along those lines. And sometimes they do have a rich parent or a connection, but that's only enough to get you in the door. It's definitely not going to keep you there. And contrast that, man, I know so many successful musicians and producers who come from the worst backgrounds that nothing handed to them who have some of the most tragic lives, I guess the first part of their lives, some of the most tragic upbringings you could think of, and just bad luck along the way and terrible stories who have just gotten through and had incredible careers. And then I've seen guys who have come from

Speaker 5 (01:20:48):

Everything

Speaker 2 (01:20:48):

Money end up in prison or something

Speaker 5 (01:20:52):

And

Speaker 2 (01:20:52):

Totally destroy their own careers. I think it has nothing to do with it, and it has everything to do with what you bring to the table and just how deep you're willing to go and for how long.

Speaker 3 (01:21:06):

Exactly how long. And if I can add on that is being able to recognize everybody's not great at everything. I'm not the best player in the world. Whatever your weaknesses, you need to recognize that and then find a way to get that up to where your strengths are. Whatever that stuff is, look at yourself and go, okay, what do I really need to improve at? Where are my faults? And you can't compare yourself to somebody like Chris Lord Algae that's 60 years old or whatever, and been doing it since he was 14 because he is got all his years on you. So you have to look at what are your strengths for right now? What am I really good at? Okay, that's great. That seems to take care of itself, whatever that thing is. So all these other things are my fault. So that's the stuff I need to work on. I don't know, music theory, I don't know how to put together songs really well. Let me learn about that. I don't have to stick to the theory, but at least if I can understand it, when these problems arise, I'll have a starting point to be able to solve it

Speaker 2 (01:22:04):

Or work with team members who

Speaker 3 (01:22:07):

Compliment

Speaker 2 (01:22:08):

Your weaknesses.

Speaker 3 (01:22:09):

There you go. Boom.

Speaker 2 (01:22:10):

Either way, end result is the same. Like I said before, that's exactly what I did in my bands. And I remember once I had a fight with somebody, the guy was trying to insult me and he said that basically I got this guy, this other guy in my band so I could ride his coattails as a guitar player. He's a fucking phenomenal guitar player. And it's like, well, no, actually no, that's not it at all. Because I'm the guy who got us the record deal and did all the networking and wrote most of the music and put it together. But I knew that I wasn't that great of a player. So I found someone who is, yeah, let him do most of the tracking.

Speaker 5 (01:23:04):

Yes,

Speaker 2 (01:23:06):

We worked. He benefited from what I was good at, as much as I benefited from what he was good at. And so that argument doesn't work. And it's the same thing in bring up my business partners now. For instance, Joey is good at computer stuff in a way that I could never be and will never be. It's just the way his brain works. And he also has that background. He knew how to code. He used to work at a computer store that is in his background and that's not me. I'm not the guy who You're not

Speaker 5 (01:23:46):

That guy. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:23:47):

Yeah. I'm not the guy who jumps into the software and fixes it. I have a whole different skillset. And that's, to me, that's part of what works is figuring out what you're not good at. And like you said, either you learn how to do it or you find someone else who does.

Speaker 3 (01:24:07):

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's what Steve Jobs did. He's not a software guy. He hired great software people because he knew he was an idea guy and needed somebody to fill the void that he couldn't do. I mean, yeah,

Speaker 2 (01:24:19):

It's funny. It's so funny when people talk shit about him, somehow being the visionary is a bad thing. I don't get it. So what if he didn't do the actual coding? Who cares? That's okay. Obviously it worked.

Speaker 3 (01:24:40):

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:24:41):

Exactly. So here is another question. This one is from Michael Goodrich. And do you mix differently for projects will be played on the radio a lot compared to more up and coming acts that just want to sound good?

Speaker 3 (01:24:55):

Oh no.

Speaker 2 (01:24:56):

Sounds like a loaded question.

Speaker 3 (01:24:57):

Yeah, it does. No, not at all. I want everything to sound the best it can for what it is. Again, no, I sit here and I open the session and I just start mixing the song as if it was Weezer or whoever. To me, it doesn't matter. It's music. I want to just make it sonically cool and do the song justice.

Speaker 2 (01:25:23):

It's like back when I was talking about Billy Decker and the country country stuff,

Speaker 5 (01:25:30):

Like

Speaker 2 (01:25:30):

I said earlier, there was no difference in the quality between the superstar and the up and comers. They all sounded great. And I know that Billy will tell you over and over and over that it doesn't matter if the person paying him has sold 10 million records or a hundred records, he's going to go for it the same way.

Speaker 5 (01:25:56):

Yep. No, it's true.

Speaker 2 (01:25:58):

Also, what sounds loaded about that question is saying up and coming acts that just want a good sound. Does that mean that radio bands don't want a good sound? I don't.

Speaker 3 (01:26:09):

Don't

Speaker 2 (01:26:09):

Totally understand.

Speaker 3 (01:26:10):

I think this is the thing that I can maybe where, and again, I'm trying to assume what experience he's had to lead him to this question. The thing that I can say is maybe that if you've had a poor experience hiring a bigger mixer or somebody like that is the tracking. You can make whatever. You can only mix what you're given. So if the tracks were recorded poorly, and again, the mix might be good for what you were given, but you might hear a record that costs $40,000 to make or whatever that was in a proper studio and you're going to go, why does it sound like that? You can only mix what you're given. So if the tracks are, and I don't want to say subpar because it's all a taste thing, what we would call a shitty sounding record, could be the perfect thing for somebody. So if your tracks are not what you want them to sound like, the mixer cannot make them sound any different than what you give them. So you have to get it at the tracking stage, that sound that you're looking for,

Speaker 2 (01:27:23):

Man. And how true does that become with mastering too?

Speaker 3 (01:27:26):

Oh yeah, yeah. Masters. I do

Speaker 2 (01:27:27):

Anything. Yeah, it's so important to get it right from the inception. So alright, here's the last question. And this one also sounds a little bit loaded, but I know this guy in real life and I know it's not a loaded question, so I'm going to ask you his question and then I'm going to add my own ending to it. So this is from Miami Dolphin, and by the way, that is his real name. That's

Speaker 3 (01:27:54):

Amazing. I love that.

Speaker 2 (01:27:56):

Yeah, I've seen his driver's license.

Speaker 3 (01:27:57):

That's awesome.

Speaker 2 (01:27:58):

It actually is Miami Dodge,

Speaker 3 (01:28:00):

So he's probably from Ohio or something, right?

Speaker 2 (01:28:05):

Actually his handle on somewhere is Cleveland Brown.

Speaker 3 (01:28:10):

Oh, that's great.

Speaker 2 (01:28:11):

That's

Speaker 3 (01:28:11):

Great.

Speaker 2 (01:28:13):

So I was about to say, I think he's from Ohio, but actually I think he's from Virginia.

Speaker 3 (01:28:17):

Ah, that's great. I love it.

Speaker 2 (01:28:19):

Just probably was born to some Miami Dolphins fans

Speaker 3 (01:28:23):

And big time

Speaker 2 (01:28:24):

For real. So here it is. Hey Mark, I know you are also a member of Sound Better. Do you think it's possible for up and comers at Hustle to make a living solely off of work for higher sites like that? Or do you think that because there are already platinum mixers like yourself or Jeff Giuliano that it doesn't make sense? And then I'm going to add my own ending, which is what do you think that up and comers can do to compete against the entrenched players?

Speaker 3 (01:29:00):

That's a good question. And it's funny because I've actually thought about that before. So I use sound better. Not really. I use it to fill my book. So I do cheaper mixes on there to just sort of fill in the time that I need to get filled and I'll turn down work on there and if there's a cool project that I see pop up today, I saw a film pop up for, they need a score. So yeah, I'm going to go after that. So yeah, I mean it is, it's easy to get in contact with people like me and Jeff. Jeff, I sold Jeff. I used to have a 3 6 0 9 with serial number three, and I sold it to Jeff and I said,

Speaker 2 (01:29:47):

Wow.

Speaker 3 (01:29:47):

And I still regret it, but Jeff's a good guy, but so how do you get that right? How do you get around people like us? You can undercut us and then over deliver. That's one way. And then anything, you build a name and get these people to review, you try to get your five stars and post that everywhere. And another thing is I think people probably really go on there and listen to whatever your offerings are, like your demos or projects you've worked on before. So make sure that those are just solid demos so you can't argue with the quality. So if you have something on there that's just perfect for an artist, go for it. Submit to every job you can at the beginning.

(01:30:43):

I know it's tough. It's like how do you do this thing that all these other people are in your way? You're like the guy at the back of the crowd jumping, going like, Hey, but I'm here too. I get it. Shit, I wish I had better advice. Work with as many local bands as you can. I'm sure this is the same advice. Everybody does work for free until you become in demand. I was lucky enough to be in a different time. The internet wasn't really as prominent as it was now. Everything, the bands were still a thing. It wasn't like two guys that wanted to write music when I started. So it was just very different and I feel lucky to be able to have been a part of that, but the best advice worked for free work. As much as you can never say no and if you're only going to get better because you're working more and hopefully you get so good that people just have to work with you and they'll pay whatever it takes.

Speaker 2 (01:31:41):

Yeah, I mean I think that by trying to make a living solely off of a site like sound better, you're definitely

Speaker 3 (01:31:50):

Knocking it,

Speaker 2 (01:31:50):

Shooting down. Yeah. You're kind of limiting your options there quite a bit. And I also think that, and this is going to go contrary to what I know a lot of our students think, but I don't really think that there's too much you can do as a producer to really market yourself in the way that a business does really. I mean you can to a degree, but really what makes the majority of a difference as a person that makes audio for a living as a producer or mixer writer is what people think of your work and what they tell other people who would potentially hire you. I think that's like 90% of it

Speaker 5 (01:32:40):

Right

Speaker 2 (01:32:41):

There. And then the other 10% would be the marketing you can do online. And a great example of someone who markets the shit out himself is Chris Lorde, but I mean, the dude is already a phenom. Yeah,

Speaker 3 (01:33:00):

He's at the top already. So

Speaker 2 (01:33:02):

Yeah, the only difference that I think it's made is that maybe there's some guys who are at his level as far as skill and maybe record sales who aren't as known to the younger generation just because they're not on a million plugins and doing every seminar that they can. So I'm sure that it's helped a little bit, but I don't think that it's made a difference to him, whereas he's now a rich guy or before he wouldn't have been or something. Now he sold 30 million albums, whereas before he would've only sold two. I think it's just a small incremental thing, and so I see lots of up and comer guys who study marketing and I think that that's great and it can't hurt that much, but they focus on it way too much. And I get it, when you, especially if you're learning from something like URM or whatever, we market like crazy, but we are a business, so we have to sell a volume of products or subscriptions in order to be able to keep the lights on. It's not,

Speaker 3 (01:34:23):

It's different.

Speaker 2 (01:34:23):

It's totally different. It's not like a one-to-one thing where you are with an artist or in a project for six weeks straight or something like that, and you only need one at that particular time period in order to do okay. It's not the same thing at all. And I just think that Miami, I know for a fact that you are a hustler and work your ass off, and that right there is the guy moved, for instance, he moved from Virginia to la, put himself into massive debt in order to get his career further, and it worked. He immediately got in with some good people and his budgets are going up and he's getting a lot of work and he's making it happen, but it's definitely not because of a site like sound better, not that hurts,

Speaker 5 (01:35:19):

But

Speaker 2 (01:35:19):

It's because he actually made the sacrifice and has worked on his craft. I remember for instance, at one point he got an internship with one of the guys who had come on nail the mix, and that guy was pro tools only, and at the time, Miami only knew Reaper. And so the guy asked me about him and I was like, look, I'm not going to tell you to definitely take him or definitely not take him, but give him a chance to at least get it under his belt, and I know that the dude's a hard worker and give him a time limit. If he can't handle it in two weeks or whatever, just move on. But as soon as he had that opportunity, I know that he basically stayed up for two weeks straight to teach himself pro tools and it worked. That's what works.

Speaker 3 (01:36:18):

Yeah, that is what works. He'll be successful. As long as he keeps that mentality, he'll be successful because you're only a failure if you allow yourself to fail. So if you keep pushing, then you're not failing. You're just working through a rough spot.

Speaker 2 (01:36:34):

Exactly. And the stuff like sound better or noise creators or whatever, that's very, very good for just, I guess for just keeping your visibility up, which is always good, staying top of mind, and obviously the more successful you already are, the more that it will yield. Like you said, it helps fill the calendar, but man, imagine if you were starting your career now and you're like, okay, sound better. That's

Speaker 3 (01:37:06):

That's what you

Speaker 2 (01:37:06):

Do. How I'm going to make this one.

Speaker 3 (01:37:08):

Yeah, I know. Yeah. No, yeah. I wouldn't put all my eggs in that basket. I mean, what do you have to do? You have to sign up and that's it, right? So let that thing just kind of be what it is and then go work your ass off, and then those will be the little things you'll be like, oh, cool, I made three or 400 bucks extra this week that I didn't think I was going to make.

Speaker 2 (01:37:28):

Yeah, exactly. I mean, I'm sure that Fiverr is very similar, and I know that Fiverr has a reputation for having some horrible people on it

Speaker 4 (01:37:39):

As

Speaker 2 (01:37:39):

Far as whatever it is that you hire people for, but I am sure that there's also some brilliant people on there who make a killing off it, but also make a killing in real life and just use Fiverr as one more income source.

Speaker 3 (01:37:55):

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, look, the younger people that haven't been doing this that long, if they stick with it, they're going to find everything. Everything happens in waves. You're going to get so busy, you're going to be like, oh my God, how am I going to do all this stuff? And then you're going to be so dead, you're going to be like, oh my God, I'm never going to work again, and then all of a sudden it gets super busy again. It's just how the nature of the business and the nature of it, that's just how it works,

Speaker 2 (01:38:22):

And there's no real getting around that

Speaker 3 (01:38:24):

Part. Yeah, except for yourself that it's going to be a kind of crazy no security sort of life. For sure,

Speaker 2 (01:38:35):

Man. I can tell you, even my dad who has done great in the orchestral world is still at this point, he still has to think about, maybe not the next gig, but two years from now, which orchestra is he going to be with? That's still a fact of life.

Speaker 3 (01:38:57):

Absolutely. I mean, the guy, Robert Miller that I work with, he scored 65 films and 2,500 commercials over his career. Wow. Yeah. I mean, ridiculous. All the Coke, polar bear stuff. I could just name a million commercials in. We just did the new Coke campaign, so if you guys see that it's a hall of the Mountain king reimagined for all these Coke graffiti spots that come up, and every spot has that same running thread.

Speaker 2 (01:39:32):

Can we find it on YouTube?

Speaker 3 (01:39:34):

Oh, sure. Yeah, I'm sure. Just look.

Speaker 2 (01:39:35):

Okay. Then we're going to put it in the show notes, actually. So if you go to U RM Academy and find this episode, just look at the show notes and we'll have some of those in there.

Speaker 3 (01:39:47):

Oh, cool. Yeah. Yeah. I'll send 'em to you. But yeah, Robert did that. The orchestra is recorded at Fox in la, so yeah, I mean, look, it's the same thing with his pedigree and his volume of work that he's done and his reputation in the business. It's still like, look, there's periods where we're like, oh, okay. We only got a couple commercials right now, and then there's times where it's just like, oh my God, how are we going to, actually, last week was like that. It was like, how are we going to finish all this, all of this right now? But you get through it, and then it just keeps coming in waves up and down, up and down.

Speaker 2 (01:40:26):

Yeah. Yeah. That is what it is. If you're not good with it, you may not last.

Speaker 3 (01:40:37):

No.

Speaker 2 (01:40:38):

Yeah,

Speaker 3 (01:40:39):

It's true.

Speaker 2 (01:40:41):

Mark, thank you so much for coming on. It's been great talking to you

Speaker 3 (01:40:45):

For real. Thank you. I love it. I love it. Yeah, I would love to do anything with you guys that you have. I would love to do it. I love doing this stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:40:52):

We would love to have you. I mean, I can tell that you're into this. You're very, very well spoken, and it's been a pleasure talking to you.

Speaker 1 (01:41:03):

Absolutely. Thank you guys so much for having me. To get in touch with the URM podcast, visit urm.com/podcast and subscribe.