Sean O’Keefe: Making *Take This to Your Grave*, The Hawthorne Heights Lawsuit, The Gold Record Myth

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast, and now your host. Hey Eyal Levi. This show is brought to you by URM Academy, the world's best education for rock and metal producers. You know us for nail the Mix, but today I am here to tell you about Ultimate Drum Production, a brand new course that's going to completely transform the way you think about and record drums. You're going to be hearing a lot more about it in the coming weeks, but in the meantime, head over to ultimate drum production.com to learn more. Alright, so today on the URM podcast, I've got a really great producer whose work I've loved for years, Mr. Sean O'Keefe, and if you don't know who he is, I'm sure you've heard of what he's worked on. He's best known for work with Fallout Boy, Hawthorne Heights and Plain White Tees, as well as Motion City soundtrack, less Than Jake and a whole lot of other amazing bands.

(00:00:49):

He's gone Gold multiple times, and this is just a cool episode for people who want to have, I guess the veil pulled up from over their eyes about what to actually expect when you experience some success. Some people think that the moment you experience success, you don't need to work very hard anymore. And we go into some of the realities of what it's like after you do get a big record. Is your studio going to be completely booked or not? What kind of things can you even worry about? We also talk about his whole history and his taste for analog gear, his production philosophies, just all the above. And it's a great episode. I hope you enjoy it and here we go. Alright, so Sean O'Keefe, welcome to the URM podcast. I appreciate you being here.

Speaker 2 (00:01:34):

Yeah, thanks for having me.

Speaker 1 (00:01:36):

Yeah, my pleasure. I want to get right to it. You've worked with some of the most iconic bands in rock or sub genres of rock in the past 15 years. When you got started on the path of production, is that something you anticipated happening? Is this something you went for or is it something that just kind of developed naturally through relationships?

Speaker 2 (00:02:07):

Yeah, I would say the third one, yeah, developed naturally. Yeah. Let's see. I'm trying to think about went for, I mean, I think I was just going for everybody else. I just wanted to record and work on as good as stuff as possible. That was the only intention, I suppose. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:02:34):

Well, the reason I ask is because I find that some producers are way more just artistically driven and like you said, they just want to record the best stuff possible and they do a really good job and they're cool to hang out with and eventually they meet a band that takes off and everything works out. Whereas there are also dudes who, of course, they're artistically minded and musically minded, but they're like, I need to have this number of plaques on the wall. I need to complete this many goals by this certain date and I will achieve it through X.

Speaker 2 (00:03:17):

Well, I mean, there's no doubt about it that when I received my first gold record, that was a nice experience and it was like, wow, it felt good. And

Speaker 1 (00:03:35):

Was it like a validation

Speaker 2 (00:03:38):

Maybe in some way? Honestly, I don't really remember. I remember the day it showed up to my house. I was making a record there, but I guess I don't think so. Maybe fighting out that it went gold or something, it was, but I suppose at that point people had already told me this record's going to go gold. I actually remember sitting in a tour bus with somebody maybe three or four months before, and he was a manager and he was just saying, oh, that record's on autopilot and this thing is you're going to go gold. And those things, I dunno, especially at that age, they don't really register.

(00:04:23):

It just kind of passes you by. It was great. It's great. But yeah, I mean, I guess getting back to your question, when I actually think of before all that happened and what it was like, honestly, I can't say that it was really any different than it is today where the goal really was finding an opportunity to work with a band that I liked, and if you could accomplish that, that was a great thing. And then if you were able to find a band that you liked, I guess, or really just being able to follow through and do the very best that you can, I think that was the goal when I set out to make the follow-up play record in particular. But really all of 'em, the goal is just to, I want to make this as good as we can possibly make it. I mean, that's the goal for sure. And then as far as a goal of that end result, doing something or having a certain degree,

Speaker 1 (00:05:37):

Kind of a separate thing.

Speaker 2 (00:05:39):

Definitely, yeah, absolutely. And it's really somebody else's job or decision after that.

Speaker 1 (00:05:47):

Yeah, it is kind of out of your hands in a way. And I think that that's actually kind of a positive thing for producers to learn how to differentiate. I think it goes down to the smallest everyday things like sending off a mix to get feedback from an artist or something. You have no control over how they're going to react. Having a label here for the first time, no idea how they're going to react, whether or not a band is going to break up in the first six months after you recorded them. That kind of stuff is totally out of your control. And I find that worrying about that kind of stuff, I mean, I think you should worry about it to a certain degree, not to let opportunities pass you by and not to make the most of them, but maybe worrying about it too much can cause a little too much stress and worry and distraction from what's really important.

Speaker 2 (00:06:52):

Yeah, that's an interesting point because I do feel like that's a fine line. I always worry with basically everything, but I mean, like you said, when you send off a mix or whatever and anything, it's always anxiety attached to it. And I think mean, at least for me, part of that is that you've created something or you've been a part of creating something and like you said, then you lose all say in it at that point and somebody else gets to tell you what they think and that's like you're putting your stuff out there. And that's totally, to me, overwhelming and nerve wracking. And when it comes back and it's positive, it's amazing and it feels incredible and it's one extreme and when it comes back and it's negative, it's like an assault on your everything and it's hurtful and it's a hard, at least for me, that's a hard balance to try and just keep a middle ground there because yeah, you're really just creating something and somebody else is going to decide.

Speaker 1 (00:08:03):

What's funny is I've been just through doing this podcast and the educational part of now the Mix Newham Academy, we've been around so many mixers, and then also back when I was mixing professionally and working under people, it's funny how no matter where people are at in their career, they still take it personally. I think sometimes people would like to think that they separate themselves from the outcome, but we're talking about art. I think it's hard to separate yourself, but you have to do a certain point to be able to just get through the project and get onto the next one and not procrastinate sending off the mixes in the first place.

Speaker 2 (00:08:58):

Definitely. And I do feel like, at least in my experience, when enough good feedback comes in over the course of time, I think that helps you kind of build your confidence as you're moving forward to at least know that, I guess, to eliminate the extreme amount of worries, like you said. So you need to be able to focus on what you're doing, and I think that's super important. And maybe I have to just remind myself that not every one of those is going to be a home run or something like that, but still, I mean, that's kind of our job, I think, and an artist's job is just to, you need to put your all into it and do your best and yeah, you can't let it distract you from that. That would be really difficult or bad.

Speaker 1 (00:09:51):

This reminds me of an interview I read 10 years ago or more, and I forget which producer it was, but he worked on an Alanis Morrisette record in the nineties, and I think that he did the first mix of the album and got fired that day for it. She hated it, fucking hated it. He didn't think there was anything wrong with it. He stood by it, which is interesting because the general practice, at least now is if you get mixed notes, you do the mixed notes and you fix the mix for the artists. But man, I don't remember who this was. I wish I did. It was just so long ago, but I just remember reading it, had her take on it and then his take on it, and he was just like, they can go fuck themselves. That mix was perfect. There were no changes I was going to make to it. I don't care if she didn't like it and her side was, he totally missed the point. It didn't even sound like the same band and literally was fired that day. So I just think it's a point where the confidence goes too far, possibly.

Speaker 2 (00:11:25):

Totally. Yeah. That reminds me of something, if you don't mind, I'm going to give you a little story, and I didn't know that we were going to go talking about this, but yeah, so when I, speaking of the Follow-Up Boy record, when I did that, actually we did a few of the songs first as I guess demos, but those ended up being on the record. But then we went forward and they got signed, we made the rest of the record, and the record company had booked a tour for the band right after, and they were really up against a deadline. And the only way that we were able to make it work was that the band had to go on tour. Literally the day after that we finished recording the record. And anyway, point is it meant that I had to mix the record on my own while they were on tour. And those were the days where there was basically no, there was, as far as I knew, sending internet mixes. There was certainly no recall. It was all analog console. And so speaking of the anxiety, so I can

Speaker 1 (00:12:34):

Imagine

Speaker 2 (00:12:35):

I had to mix that whole record by myself and print all the mixes knowing that there could never be a recall on anything by myself while the band was gone and this was their debut record. And I think I must've been nervous, but I also was so excited that maybe that kind of just stood in front of the nervousness. But anyway, I do remember when I finished and I was going insane. I was up till seven in the morning, and I remember the assistant would walk in the next morning and I'd play and I'd be like, what do you think of this? And he'd be like, dude, you got to go to sleep.

(00:13:13):

But I do remember the band, they came home after a few weeks from tour, and that was the first time they heard their record and I had to bring 'em into the studio and hit play, and there was no changing it. That was definitely a nerve wracking moment. I'm sitting there going, but I didn't have the feeling of, to be honest of my feeling at that point was, I hope they like it. I really hope It wasn't like, this is it and fuck you. But they were my friends and thankfully they liked it and it was okay, and I think we made a couple of changes. They wanted a few things louder, and so we literally, they sang 'em again and we added 'em to the two track, a couple screams or something at mastering.

Speaker 1 (00:14:03):

That's fortunate. That's very, very fortunate that they

Speaker 3 (00:14:07):

Liked

Speaker 2 (00:14:07):

It.

Speaker 1 (00:14:07):

They liked it.

Speaker 3 (00:14:08):

Yeah, totally.

Speaker 1 (00:14:12):

Speaking of getting to that point, so that was the early two thousands. How long had you been recording before that? And I guess also how long had you been recording professionally before that?

Speaker 2 (00:14:27):

Yeah, not long. I mean, I think we did that in 2002 and I was 22 years old in 2002.

Speaker 1 (00:14:38):

Oh, wow.

Speaker 2 (00:14:38):

Yeah, so not long. I mean, I started, right. I don't know what is considered professional, but I guess

Speaker 1 (00:14:47):

Getting paid anything.

Speaker 2 (00:14:49):

Okay. Yeah, I guess two years maybe. Yeah, because I was an intern two or three years, I was an intern. Then I started making recordings for money probably around 1999 or 2000. And then we did that two years later. So yeah, not very long.

Speaker 1 (00:15:09):

Wow. So that happened fast.

Speaker 2 (00:15:11):

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:15:15):

Did you record through high school to where you knew you wanted to pursue this path or did the internship thing just kind of materialize like it does for some people?

Speaker 2 (00:15:27):

No, I recorded through high school. Yeah. I was like most recording guys. I was in bands in high school, I was a drummer and a few punk rock bands, and I love that. And I think probably from an earlier age, I knew music was something, at least I thought at that time, music is what I want to do. Probably a lot of kids do, but

(00:15:52):

I can't say I knew that that was going to be my profession, but I knew I wanted to do it. And let's see. And then, yeah, sometime in high school it's hard to, I have a terrible memory with this stuff, but I remember it as around 15, 16 specifically because it's when I got my license is when I just remember driving my brother's car and I would listen to tapes or CDs all the time, and that's when I am pretty sure I totally fell in love with the sonics of recordings. To me, that was the first time where I could literally feel the music of the recording. It is in a car, you turn it up, and to this day, it's the same thing. It's my favorite thing to do is drive and listen to music.

(00:16:44):

And I think that's what kind of got me interested in what is this process and how does that work? And I think it was for my 16th birthday, I asked my mom as a present if she would have take my band into the studio for a day or a weekend. It was two days, and it was this guy's basement studio, a nearby basement studio. And to me, it was the coolest thing ever. And yeah, I am pretty sure it was that that got me hooked on recording. And so I borrowed a friend's four track and was recorded just cassette, two tracks and stuff. So anyway, to answer your question, yeah, so I definitely, I had experience and I spent all my time doing it, and I made a lot of recordings in high school from my band and other band, all kinds of stuff. And so it wasn't just starting as an internship, going into the internship, I think it's safe to say without ego involved that I was probably pretty noticeably farther along than most of the interns at the studio.

Speaker 1 (00:17:54):

Makes sense.

Speaker 2 (00:17:54):

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:17:57):

How did that come along, the internship? And I know that it's completely different back then than it would be now, but

Speaker 3 (00:18:03):

Still,

Speaker 1 (00:18:06):

So just for the record, how did

Speaker 2 (00:18:08):

That

Speaker 1 (00:18:08):

Go along?

Speaker 2 (00:18:09):

Yeah. Well, out of high school, I was supposed to go to college. My dad was insistent that I go to a college and even though I wanted to do recording and music, and so we settled on a local college here in Chicago called Columbia College, and it's like an arts kind of college, and they have a recording program. And so I signed up for that recording program and I started going and within the first maybe, I don't know, three or four weeks or something like that, I really hated it. And it's not that I hated it, I just didn't feel at home and didn't, it sounds so wrong to say, but it felt really slow to me. And

Speaker 1 (00:18:55):

I was an anxious dude. I went to Berkeley. I dropped out for very similar reasons. It was just so slow and boring. I couldn't deal with it.

Speaker 2 (00:19:06):

Yeah, you want to get to the recording, the good stuff. And I've been doing that, and I had a little setup where I lived and I was recording, and all I could think to myself was, I just need to, I want to be recording all the time. And so I was driving to school one day and I just couldn't bring myself to go, but I also couldn't bring myself to not go without a plan. And so I decided I would justify it if I went to, there's a local newspaper at that time that had all the recording studios in the ad section, and I said, I'll call all the studios I can and try and get an internship, and that'll justify me not going back to recording school. And that's what happened. And I called and left messages, and it took about four or five months, and eventually I got an internship at a studio in Chicago called Gravity Studios, which was the place that I worked out of and made tons of records for probably the first six years of my career.

Speaker 1 (00:20:15):

How was your dad about the dropping out of school and getting an internship thing? Was that easy to explain or?

Speaker 2 (00:20:22):

Well, not really because I didn't explain it to him at first, actually. Yeah, I didn't tell him. And to be totally honest, so the deal in our family was that as long as I was in school, he would pay for my rent. And I lived in, it was actually, it was an office two office, office building, and I rented the office. There was a shower, but no kitchen. But I lived there because after five o'clock on Monday through Friday, nobody else was there and I could make noise. So I lived in this little office so I could have band practice and make records at night, but my dad was paying my rent and I didn't want to tell him I wasn't going to school because I would no longer have rent, money

Speaker 1 (00:21:11):

Ride would end.

Speaker 2 (00:21:12):

So I didn't. And then when the semester ended and he asked for my report card, I had to tell him then that I didn't go, and that's when the rent got cut off. And I really, that's actually really what made me force me to do it for a living. And I put out a little ad in the newspaper saying, I have a recording studio, and I really hustled. And that's really when I started full-time making records. I had no more income.

Speaker 1 (00:21:39):

It's funny what people can pull off when they have no choice

Speaker 3 (00:21:44):

To

Speaker 1 (00:21:45):

Really decide to do it. How long was it between getting your rent cut off till you could support yourself from it?

Speaker 2 (00:21:57):

Probably a few months. And in all fairness, I was delivering pizzas on the side during there so I could eat. Honestly, I've thought about this because people have asked me this. I literally don't remember the exact, I can't remember if I quit the pizza gig before or after that, but it was somewhere in there. It was not in

Speaker 1 (00:22:19):

That range.

Speaker 2 (00:22:19):

I mean, it really had to be. Yeah. But I was lucky. I played in bands and well, first of all, the rent was cheap, but also I was playing in bands and I was in a circle of musicians in bands, and I knew a lot of people, and I was lucky that a lot of people came and asked me to do the recording. So I feel like that's a huge advantage anybody has. I think especially being younger and recording is that if you are, it is probably a little bit easier to be part of a musical community because that was my world. It was hanging out in basement shows and playing in bands, and you're just surrounded by it every single day, so you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (00:23:12):

Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (00:23:12):

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:23:13):

We've always told people that, well, if they really want to accelerate their progress in terms of getting recording clients, one of the best things you can do is play in a band, be a musician, and be active, play gigs, and

Speaker 3 (00:23:34):

Definitely

Speaker 1 (00:23:34):

Go to shows and just be an organic part of that community. Don't try to insert yourself in a weird way

Speaker 3 (00:23:43):

Without it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:23:45):

And pass out awkward business cards actually.

Speaker 3 (00:23:47):

Totally. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:23:50):

Actually be a part of the community by being a musician.

Speaker 2 (00:23:54):

Yeah. Yeah. And also to me, really that's, that's the joy of it. It's really fun to be a part of something, I think. And yeah, those are good people. To me, having musicians and people like that around is your friends. They're just good times. That's a good time. And you are right. I think totally. It pays off in an organic way without having to be the business guy with the card or something.

Speaker 1 (00:24:29):

The awkward business card guy.

Speaker 2 (00:24:30):

Yeah, we never want to be

Speaker 1 (00:24:35):

No, absolutely not like a Nam Punisher. It just doesn't really work and nobody likes it.

Speaker 3 (00:24:46):

Totally.

Speaker 1 (00:24:49):

So we're follow out, boy, just like a part of that same community you were a part of. Same circles, and

Speaker 2 (00:24:56):

Yeah, I had recorded each one of them individually in a separate band before Fall Up Boy, which is kind of funny actually. So Patrick was a drummer in a band, PDA, I think is what it was called.

Speaker 1 (00:25:15):

That's a good name.

Speaker 2 (00:25:16):

Andy Hurley and Pete Wentz were in at least one band called Arm Angelus, which was a hardcore band that I made at least one record for. And Joe Truman was in another band that I don't remember the name of, but I also recorded and I went to high school with Joe. But yeah, so I knew all of 'em. They were all part of that circle. We would all see each other at these basement shows and things like that. And then specifically Pete was hanging out during a record I made right before Follow-Up Boys record called this band called Knockout. At the time, Pete was friends with him and he was hanging out a lot at the studio, and that's when he told me about Follow-Up Boy, and gave me the cassette tape and asked if I would record him. So yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:26:10):

So follow-Up Boy Happens, and I'm going to condense some time here, but then Gold Records happen, and you did say that you were too young to really get it. Totally. But just thinking back, do you think there was any myths about what a gold record does or any truths to what it does for your career?

Speaker 2 (00:26:38):

Yeah, well, I think I suppose the miss might be, or the thought might be that a gold record can skyrocket your career or maybe that you're rich from a gold record, or if I'm missing any, please lemme know, but or

Speaker 1 (00:27:01):

That everything's just going, the struggle is over.

Speaker 2 (00:27:03):

The struggle is over. Okay. Totally. Yeah. Okay. The struggle is over is totally untrue, and you're going to get rich is also untrue and whatever the first one was, I can't remember, but

Speaker 1 (00:27:16):

Skyrocket your career

Speaker 2 (00:27:17):

And it definitely will elevate it definitely. At least in my case, it elevated it. And so yeah, I think that it's not everything that TV might make people believe it is or something like that, but on the other hand, it definitely has a lot of benefits to it for sure. I've noticed. So I think when you have made a gold record that some people might take you more seriously. Some people might expect that you're going to cost more or be okay with the fact that you cost more. Some people, I'm trying to think, you will, at least depending on your deal, you'll earn some money. And don't get me wrong, every dollar I've ever received from that has been amazing and still is to this day and is appreciated. But you're not going to quit your job.

Speaker 1 (00:28:26):

So it sounds like it's basically giving you the opportunity to do more work and better work, but it's not like

Speaker 2 (00:28:34):

Big time.

Speaker 1 (00:28:34):

Yeah, it's not going to put you in a jet or anything.

Speaker 2 (00:28:37):

No, it's not going to do that. But man, it's a great thing if you can do it. I think I always say this to people, and I don't want to focus too much because I know the question wasn't based too much on the money of it, but people will ask me today about a production deal they're doing or something like that,

(00:29:02):

And with the hopes that usually the question always is, well, what if it's a gold record? I don't want to lose out on all that money, and my response is always the same, and I really do feel this way, which is, I wouldn't go crazy over your deal trying to secure X amount of points or whatever over this. I wouldn't jeopardize the project based on that because in my experience, if you have such a successful record, the amount of work and opportunity it will bring you is so much greater than the monetary value of that specific thing.

Speaker 1 (00:29:44):

That's a great point.

Speaker 2 (00:29:46):

So there's a lot of leverage I think, that you can have, but also with it comes a lot of responsibility because when the next person that comes to hire you comes to you and says, well, you've made X amount of hit records, we're going to now pay you X amount of dollars, and we kind of expect that you're going to give us a hit record. That's a little odd because it's a lot of responsibility, but

Speaker 1 (00:30:17):

It's a good thing. I think I want to touch on what you just said before that though, because that's actually advice that I've given to a lot of people who are starting out. We get the question a lot from people, how do I negotiate a production deal with local bands or how do I get, make sure I get the points and all that? And answer is usually, I mean, definitely you should worry about this at some point, and you shouldn't let yourself get steamrolled, but you can do a lot more damage than you realize by being a stickler about this stuff, and it's not necessarily worth it.

Speaker 3 (00:31:00):

Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 1 (00:31:03):

Like you said, the jeopardizing the project is way worse than not making a royalty check because of the opportunities that

Speaker 2 (00:31:14):

Way worse,

Speaker 1 (00:31:15):

The project will afford you

Speaker 2 (00:31:16):

Way worse. And even more so the relationships that you may and probably will develop with those people if they go on to be successful. Honestly, those relationships are very valuable, hopefully just in the sense of just being a good decent human and have a good relationship with them, but also professionally, those are huge. Those can bring big opportunity because if somebody goes to be successful, it probably means they have a lot of leverage or a lot of things they can offer for you to do. And if you're still connected with them personally or in their world, or you did a good job, that's a lot of opportunity as opposed to if you were the bad guy, then they're going to leave you behind. And yeah, it's an important thing.

Speaker 1 (00:31:58):

It's a lot easier to also get the points and all that once you've proven yourself. Definitely.

Speaker 2 (00:32:06):

Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 1 (00:32:10):

It's funny, being the bad guy makes me think of a situation I was in maybe six years ago when I was at a studio called Audio Hammer that did some pretty decently big metal records, and myself and the producer I was working under wanted to offer a spec deal to a friend of mine's band, band who was really, really good. And I definitely do think that to this day that had we made that EP or whatever, or two or three songs, their songs were really long that we could have probably gotten them signed to a decent metal label, possibly could have had a future. Obviously you never know, but they were that good and we really wanted to make this deal. We really just wanted to make something cool with them and then just have the option of making the record if they got picked up. We don't want any money, nothing. But they got a student lawyer who was a buddy of theirs to look over this deal, and he literally marked up every other sentence. It was so tedious to the point where we just dropped it. I mean, we never told them we dropped it. We were just suddenly got too busy, but we just let it go because it just wasn't worth it to fight over bullshit over something that you don't even know

Speaker 3 (00:33:47):

What's

Speaker 1 (00:33:47):

Going to come of it. And I always think back on that to where nobody had any ill intent for it. We just wanted to make some songs with them and help them get signed. And had they just been cool, it would've happened.

Speaker 3 (00:34:04):

Wow.

Speaker 1 (00:34:05):

So I mean, I definitely think that the idea of jeopardizing a project by being too much of a stickler on the business, it's very real.

Speaker 2 (00:34:17):

Yeah. Yeah. It is it, and it's too bad because I mean, ultimately it's about being part of something and creating something great, and if that can't happen, then none of it matters anyway.

Speaker 1 (00:34:33):

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (00:34:34):

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:34:36):

I mean, we're not in this to mark up contracts.

Speaker 2 (00:34:40):

I'm not. I hate it. Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah. Honestly, I barely do contracts anymore, and I don't know if that's something that some people might not be pleased with me saying that my manager or lawyer, but it's

Speaker 1 (00:34:58):

Just What up Johnny Menard?

Speaker 2 (00:35:00):

Yeah. Hey, Johnny, when Johnny's involved, and I'm lucky enough to be doing those things with Johnny. I'm thankful to have contracts and it's great, but yeah, I'm just not very good at being diligent about that.

Speaker 1 (00:35:19):

Well, I feel like there's definitely, there's both sides of the coin with it where especially we're not talking about making a deal between Beats and Adidas, we're talking about working with bands, and so generally, if someone doesn't intend to fulfill a part of the contract, it doesn't matter anyways. You're not going to get that thing from them. It's generally not going to be worth taking them to court over it anyhow.

Speaker 3 (00:35:57):

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:35:57):

So that's true. If you're going to enter into a deal with somebody, I mean, it's always good to have your ass covered, but for the most part, you should trust the people that you're going to work with. And I'm not saying to be naive, but going to court is really, really pricey.

Speaker 2 (00:36:16):

Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 1 (00:36:17):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:36:19):

Oh, no, go ahead.

Speaker 1 (00:36:20):

Oh, sorry. I was going to say not always worth it,

Speaker 2 (00:36:22):

And definitely, definitely. Yeah. I think in literally every instance that has come up in my career that that's happened, I've bypassed court on all of 'em except for one and even one, it was the biggest, to be honest. It was the biggest record, biggest selling record I had ever made. I guess in full disclosure, it was with the band Hawthorn Heights and the label didn't pay Hawthorn Heights or me, and it was a platinum record, and we had to sue the record company, and it took two years and it was a mess. And actually, and none of us, sadly, the record company outspent the band, and I think I'm allowed to say this because it's all long done at this point, but the band, they had to declare bankruptcy. They were so in debt with lawyers speaking of lawyers' fees, I mean talking just shy of a half a million dollars of unpaid attorney's fees.

(00:37:21):

And they had to declare bankruptcy. And because as a producer, typically, at least with all my deals, usually my deals with the band, they wanted to pay me, but they weren't getting paid, so they couldn't pay me. And because they declared bankruptcy and I'm technically an accreditor, then I can ever get paid from that. So I never got a cent from it, and neither did the band, and we never will because of the situation. And so it's really unfortunate, but that goes to show that's even one where it's probably worth it to go spend the money in court. But even then, when the record company is so powerful and has so much money, it doesn't always mean you're going to succeed even though there's a real contract. It's pretty disappointing, but

Speaker 1 (00:38:10):

There's only so far you can get against a multinational corporation,

Speaker 2 (00:38:14):

And if they've come off a hit record, a platinum record, and they're sitting on seven or $8 million, they got a lot of money to burn. And if the band's not getting paid, they got no money to spend. And so it's a tough position to be in. And I don't mean to

Speaker 1 (00:38:33):

Bring

Speaker 2 (00:38:33):

This into a downer,

Speaker 1 (00:38:35):

Dude. No, this is great stuff. I appreciate you going into it. This makes the whole a day, remember, lawsuit against Victory, that much more impressive.

Speaker 3 (00:38:46):

Yeah, big

Speaker 2 (00:38:47):

Time.

Speaker 1 (00:38:47):

Yeah. The fact that they pulled that off is just incredible.

Speaker 2 (00:38:52):

Incredible. Yeah. Yeah, I remember seeing that. No pun intended. That was the date I remember for me because it was a couple days before Thanksgiving, I think last year, or was it two years ago? Anyway, whatever

Speaker 1 (00:39:06):

In that range.

Speaker 2 (00:39:07):

And my brother's an attorney and I was at Thanksgiving and I had seen that they won, and I showed it to my brother. I said, do you remember the Victory Records lawsuit that I went through way back when? And it was funny because he said to me, I can't believe I'm going off on this tangent now, but he said to me, he goes, depending on the situation with a data member's case, it might give you grounds to bypass your statute of limitations on your case. If it was at this point, don't take anything I say literally because this is lawyer talk, I don't understand. But he was basically saying if it was found to be on some kind of fraudulent behavior from the record company, it would undo I think the statute of limitations on my case of Victor's case, and we could bring it back up and we could get our money. And he said that to me and to me it was like, okay, so if you've made a platinum record, that is a good amount of money,

(00:40:13):

Especially all at once. It definitely is. And for me, that's a ton. And so of course I was like, is this really real? And he is like, it depends. It depends on these laws and all that. And he kind of left it there on the table and my brother's name is Gavin, and I was like, Gavin, I don't mean to be pushy, but this isn't just a few bucks we're talking about here. Do you think you can look up these laws and see? And he pulls it up on his phone and he is like, I'm sorry, it still now you can't do anything about it. He said, oh, it's too bad. But it's good for a day to remember and that's a great victory. And that's one for the artist, and I'm very happy about that.

Speaker 1 (00:40:52):

Yeah, I feel like it was a long time coming, and even though they're the ones who benefited and not the entire artistic community, I feel like that one in particular was kind of almost in the name of every single person who had somehow been dicked by that label.

Speaker 2 (00:41:14):

I think so.

Speaker 1 (00:41:15):

Which is a long list.

Speaker 2 (00:41:17):

I think it's the roster basically. Yeah, I shouldn't say that. I don't know, but it's everybody I know at least that I've worked for that's been on that label or been on that label is part of that list.

Speaker 1 (00:41:28):

I don't think we're talking about anything here that's not common knowledge.

(00:41:34):

So it kind of is what it is and good for them. If you're like most producers, you're dialing a drum sounds the old fashioned way by trial and error, swapping out drums, heads and mics until you finally find something that works oftentimes for several exhausting and tedious days. Sound familiar? Right? I know. I have spent up to a week getting drum sounds in the past before I knew some of this stuff. So guess what? It doesn't have to be so painful. Ultimate drum production is our brand new course that teaches you the scientific method for dialing in the perfect drum sound on the very first try. Exactly the first try, not the hundredth try. It explains in extreme detail the sonic character of every single component of drum sound with exhaustive profiles of every kind of drumhead shell, material bearing edge and hoop, as well as ridiculously detailed tutorials on mic selection, placement and room choice editing and mixing. And we understand drum tone at such a fundamental insanely deep level. It's like having a set of tone Legos you can use to easily build the sound you hear in your head. You don't need to guess and check, you just assemble the building blocks. However you want to find out more and get access to exclusive pre-order pricing, head over to ultimate drum production.com/and we'll see you in class.

(00:43:04):

I want to actually talk about some recording stuff now.

Speaker 3 (00:43:07):

Sure. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:43:09):

So you've been at it for a while and obviously lots of stuff has changed over the years, all the way from Pro Tools becoming a thing to Pro Tools not being the main thing in studios anymore to this home studio explosion, just so many things. How many of these evolutions have you willfully adopted into your workflow and how many of the, I guess, workflows that you started with in more analog realm have you held onto?

Speaker 2 (00:43:49):

Okay, yeah. Well, let's see. When I started professionally, it was the days of two inch 24 track and in Pro Tools was just coming into play. And so I learned essentially on Studer whatever, 8 27. And the Studio Gravity at was a Neve old vintage Neve. So it was a classic 80 58 analog console. And so I definitely learned doing that. But like I said, pro Tools was just coming into play. So records like Follow-Up Boy and those types of records, usually the system back then was record the basics on the tape, dump 'em into Pro Tools slaved with Pro Tools Locked, and I remember that whole thing with the Time Links and the Black Burst and getting 'em to Lock perfectly was the whole thing. But we'd do the vocals and editing and Pro Tools and then at Mix Down it would be Lock Pro Tools to Tape and it would be mixed from both of 'em. So we'd, it'd always be Pro Tools slaving to the tape machine, hit play on the tape first, 22 tracks or whatever, come back to the console and then Pro Tools would have maybe at that point 16 outputs or something like that, and we'd run 'em both.

(00:45:14):

I think that's safe to say that was my first real workflow other than a hundred percent analog, which happened for a couple of years, and that existed really only for a couple years. Then the next major change was, okay, replace the tape machine all in Pro Tools. Pro Tools was the multi-track. But I would say for a number of years that system was still the record. The Pro Tools use it mostly as a tape machine, as an editor and some of like a sound processing tool, but always come back on the console and mix on the console. No recalls at this point because I particularly was on that Neve or the other studio I worked in was a place called Smart Studios, which was owned by the iconic producer, Butch Vig, up in Madison, Wisconsin. And they had this old Trident a Range, which was a 40 channel old beautiful analog console.

(00:46:10):

And so anyway, neither of those had a recall. So everything I mixed, this is probably until about 2007 or so, somewhere in there was all just console based, no recall. That was one workflow. And then right around there, I was just thinking about this the other day actually, that's when the next big change for me came in terms of a workflow evolution. And that's when I was actually seeing, well, at Smart Studios, there's two rooms and Butch Vague and his band Garbage would generally speaking and be using the upstairs room, and I would be downstairs, me and whoever else would use that room, and Garbage and Butch, those guys were big. They were big on moving with technology. They were always ahead of everybody as far as I could tell, they were mixing hybrid and mixing pro tools before most people. So I would see them and I remember thinking, I think I could give this hybrid thing a shot.

(00:47:07):

Lemme try it. And so around 2007, I moved into a hybrid situation, which was the pro tools with a whole racks of outboard gear and going through that. And I probably did that for maybe three or four years I would say, and kind of messed around with analog summing and stuff like that. And then I'm not sure if my timeline is perfect here, but that might've been about five years ago that that was the last change for me. And I went a hundred percent in terms of mixing all in Pro Tools, no analog, anything a hundred percent in, excuse me, in the box as they say it. And yeah, in terms of the technology, those are the technical changes. And then with them came the transition from Real Studio to I guess project studio, home Studio or whatever you want to call it. And that really happened at the same time. Once I moved off the console, my first hybrid studio was at home, and it wasn't intended to be that way. I just had space and I could set it up. And then throughout the years I've moved that as I've moved, that's gone from home to a commercial setting. Now I'm in an actual commercial building or it's not my home, but I guess it's the All In Pro Tools set up or whatever.

Speaker 1 (00:48:40):

So the fact that you had to work with no recall for so long, that definitely obviously forced you to commit to sounds and make confident choices. Is that something that even though you're in the box now even with a million options, do you still keep that mentality of committing to the sounds early?

Speaker 2 (00:49:07):

Yeah, I try. I definitely try and I really like that. And it's funny you say that specifically the word commit, because I just upgraded to Pro Tools 12 and they have the Commit feature. I don't know if you're a Pro Tools user or not.

Speaker 1 (00:49:21):

It's about time, right? I

Speaker 2 (00:49:22):

Know. Yeah, totally.

Speaker 1 (00:49:24):

I'm just saying, I started, when I first started on a D was Cubase SX or something long time ago, and they had the commit or the freeze function back then.

Speaker 2 (00:49:36):

How crazy.

Speaker 1 (00:49:38):

We're talking like 2003 or something.

Speaker 2 (00:49:40):

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:49:42):

How did Pro Tools just get it down?

Speaker 2 (00:49:45):

I know, totally.

Speaker 1 (00:49:47):

It's kind of funny.

Speaker 2 (00:49:48):

It's pretty funny and it's so typical. And I upgraded just for that one reason. And I was just just doing a tracking project and I was using it left and, and I love it. And actually what I found was that I will record something and if part of the sound is going to be post with plugins, which a lot of times it is for me, then I'll commit that. And it's great that you can undo and go back, but I am just starting to mix that stuff. And I love it because Ashley, I would say 75% of what I committed, those are my tracks now. I have no interest in going back. I don't even want to know what I did to it. And so yeah, I try and I think it's a good way to go. It also makes me think I just did a record, we did the back half of it, and I'm doing the other half of it in a couple weeks.

Speaker 1 (00:50:43):

My back half, you mean?

Speaker 2 (00:50:45):

Oh, sorry. The front, I did half of it. I tracked five songs basically of this one record. Sorry, that was the wrong way to say that. And then I'm doing the other half, the back half in a couple of weeks. It was the artist request to do it a hundred percent analog, the whole thing. So I mean, I haven't done this since what I was talking about a long time ago

(00:51:12):

And even mix it. So it literally never touched a computer. And it's fun. It's fun to commit and it does force you to do that stuff. And it, it reminded me how valuable that stuff is to make those decisions. Also track count, we got 23 tracks and you got to make 'em count. And there was a moment when we did one last guitar part of this song and it was like, I think we're done. And the artist or somebody in the room said, maybe we should, and I remember thinking, we will have to try this. And then looking going, you know what? Can't, we're literally out of tracks. That's it. And he was like, oh, good. Okay, good. That's good. And we all were just kind of like, that's a good feeling actually, to let the limitation decide for you at a moment. But yeah, so I think commitment's huge and I'd look forward in two weeks to going and doing the rest of this thing and mixing on analog, it's fun as hell too, and making those mixed prints are fun.

Speaker 1 (00:52:16):

So when this came up, were you like, hell yeah, I can't wait to go back. Or was it kind of like, oh, shit,

Speaker 2 (00:52:23):

It was a little bit of both. Yeah, this will be fun. And then reality set in of like, oh, I really need to make sure I remember how to do all this stuff and I need to be on the ball. And yeah, I can't say that I would go and make every record like that today because obviously Pro Tools brings a million great things, but the thing I miss about analog tape the most and that I liked the most with that was the process. It's just you have to be focused. You have to listen. There's nothing to look at. And what's on tape is what's on tape, and that's it. So you really need to make a commitment. I know I keep using that word, but

Speaker 1 (00:53:06):

It's a great word

Speaker 2 (00:53:07):

For this. Yeah, it really is. And I, that's what we had to do before, and when you make the mix, when we print the mix, I think I remember even kind of having to tell the artist he listened and he likes it, and I was like, are you sure this is it? And I think, I don't even know that he fully understood that that was the deal, that there's no going back to it.

Speaker 1 (00:53:29):

Well, how old is he?

Speaker 2 (00:53:32):

Late twenties. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:53:33):

So he probably never really made a record that way before.

Speaker 2 (00:53:37):

No.

Speaker 1 (00:53:37):

Or maybe he did.

Speaker 2 (00:53:38):

No, I don't think so.

Speaker 1 (00:53:39):

I'm just assuming. No,

Speaker 2 (00:53:40):

No, no. I think it's the safe as assumption, and I think you're right. And I think it was quite honestly, and I don't mean this in a negative way to him at all, but I think it was largely a romanticized thing for him. And I think a lot of younger folks that I meet that I always kind of joke that the guys who romanticize tape tend to be the ones who've never used tape. And it's

Speaker 1 (00:54:02):

Like, that's funny you say that, man, we get this a lot in the metal world with the drummers. It's really normal for a drummer to come in and be like, I want it all natural. No samples, no edits. It's like, do you know what that means on a metal record? That's virtually impossible, dude. They'll oftentimes point out a record that's totally edited and totally replaced.

Speaker 3 (00:54:30):

They'll

Speaker 1 (00:54:30):

Be like, I want it to sound like this guy. And it's like, okay, you've never made a natural sounding record before. That's why you want to do this. You just don't know what's involved, and I need to break it to you gently so that I don't ruin the vibe. But it is just coming from a romanticized ideal. It's not, they don't really know what's involved.

Speaker 2 (00:54:52):

Totally. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. I feel like most drummer when you said that, it's like, man, a metal record. If you played a drummer, a drum track that had none of that, they'd probably be like, that sounds like garbage or something. It's like,

Speaker 1 (00:55:06):

Yeah, that's actually exactly what's happened to me. I've had a few bands who were generally younger, meaning 18th through 22 or something who wanted to do that, and then you gave them a mix with all natural drums. They're like, why does the snare sound like that?

Speaker 2 (00:55:27):

Totally. Yeah. It's

Speaker 1 (00:55:28):

Like, that's what snare sounds like.

Speaker 2 (00:55:29):

That's what they sound like. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Totally. That's funny. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:55:35):

Why does it not sound like a cannon going off?

Speaker 2 (00:55:37):

Right? Totally. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:55:40):

Your drummer didn't play it like a cannon,

Speaker 2 (00:55:42):

Right? Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:55:45):

So I've got some questions here from our listeners for you. Cool. That I'd like to get to before we finish up. We've got some pretty good questions.

Speaker 3 (00:55:53):

Sure.

Speaker 1 (00:55:54):

So here's one from Colton, David Hunter, which is, I know recording Colton.

Speaker 2 (00:56:01):

No, maybe that's a different Colton, sorry.

Speaker 1 (00:56:04):

Oh, okay. Okay. More maybe you do know.

Speaker 2 (00:56:07):

I don't think so.

Speaker 1 (00:56:08):

Okay. Well, Colton, Sean.

Speaker 2 (00:56:12):

Okay.

Speaker 1 (00:56:13):

When recording Overdriven guitars equipped with single coil pickups, how do you deal with all the extra noise? Thanks.

Speaker 2 (00:56:19):

Okay. Yeah. Well, honestly, the first thing I do is just, it's the find the spot in the room deal. And I don't know, first of all, I don't know if I'm going to have any amazing answers to this question. I'm not a huge guitar expert. I don't think of myself as that. But

Speaker 1 (00:56:40):

What you just said is actually my first answer for dealing with that is find a better spot in the room.

Speaker 2 (00:56:45):

Yeah. That's always the fix for me. And it's really just, just turn it to put 'em in a swivel chair in 360 slowly and move around the room until it's the smallest amount of noise possible and hope that it doesn't mean the guitar player's lying on his back on the ground or something like that.

Speaker 1 (00:57:08):

I've done that before.

Speaker 2 (00:57:09):

Yeah, right. We've been in those situations where it's like, oh, man, you're going to, that sucks. I'm sorry you got to play over there. But yeah, that's my trick.

Speaker 1 (00:57:20):

Yeah, there's kind of no changing, I guess, the physics of how that all works and picks up the noise. Totally. You just have to deal. Here's one from Enrico Rotolo, which is a multi-part question, and feel free to answer as much or as little

Speaker 3 (00:57:39):

As

Speaker 1 (00:57:39):

You want, but he says, can you explain the guitar and bass tones on, take this to your grave? Also, can you give us a breakdown of the vocal arrangements on Take This to your grave? I've noticed there's a lot of third Below vocal harmonies and few songs, which is super incoming for the Style. Patrick Stump is an extremely underrated vocalist songwriter. I'd love to have some more insight on the vocals. You can almost hear some of the songs are out of his range at that time, like in Patron Saint of Liars and Fakes being an F Major D minor. Alright. And Rico's obviously studied disharmony.

Speaker 2 (00:58:14):

Yeah, he knows what's going on more than I do.

Speaker 1 (00:58:16):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:58:17):

That's good, Enrique. Okay. Yeah, so the first bass and the guitar tones, from what I remember, it really isn't too crazy. The bass tone, I don't remember the bass, but it was probably a Fender Pier jazz bass or something like that. And honestly, the amp, I'm pretty sure it was an old amp Pig, B 15. Okay. I do remember one thing I didn't like Di at that time, so was, no, it was just a microphone on the amp and it would've been a F 47. That's what the studio had, and it would've ran through a bunch of fancy vintage equipment, what the studio had, it was a Neve channel strip, specifically a 33 1 0 2 or whatever the modules are on that console on an 80 58. And it probably would've had AQ the typical, and then knee compressors most likely. I do remember one thing about the base in particular where for whatever reason, we really wanted a brighter base tone and the strings we would change and they would seem to go flat remarkably quickly. And so I think we changed base strings multiple times a day. I know that sounds insane, but

Speaker 1 (00:59:37):

No, no, that sounds a hundred percent in line with my experience of

Speaker 2 (00:59:43):

Bass

Speaker 1 (00:59:43):

Strengths and brightness.

Speaker 2 (00:59:44):

Okay. Alright. That makes me feel better because I think we all thought we were insane at the time and we joked about him having these weird, sweaty acid finger hands, like fucking up the bass,

Speaker 1 (00:59:58):

But Well, one of the things I love on Metal records is using steels, which are very high end and attacky bass strings, and they will literally go dead if you've got a decent player within an hour or an hour and a half because

Speaker 3 (01:00:12):

We'll

Speaker 1 (01:00:13):

Change bass strings every single song. And sometimes if we do the whole album on bass in two days, that's like sometimes 10 to 15 packs of strings.

Speaker 2 (01:00:22):

Yeah, that's serious business. That's good. Okay, good. Yeah. And let's see, for the guitars, the guitars would've been, man, I think it was a Les Paul, I think it was my Les Paul. I had a while back, nothing fancy and probably definitely Mesa Boogie Dual Rec was the guitar head. And honestly, from there, I don't really remember it. I can tell you that we did the record in three different stages, so it was totally different setup with each one, excuse me. Meaning that the first three songs we did were, I don't know if these are the proper names of them, they would change 'em later, but as I remember 'em, dead On Arrival Saturday and I think Subbing Homesick at Space Camp, and those were three demos that we made, those demos went on the record as is. We didn't remix them. So that was one set of recording sessions, and then when the labels they were trying to get signed, the labels asked us for more songs. We did two more and it was called, or at least the titles I know is Where's Your Boy Tonight? And I think, Hey Chris. And we did those as a separate set of recordings and submitted those, and those also did not get remixed. So those went on the record as is. And then months later we did the rest of the record. So it's a little bit funny because those tones are probably changing a lot.

(01:01:53):

So sadly, that's the best I can give you for the guitar stuff, the vocal stuff. I mean, hands down, that's Patrick, man. He needs and deserves all the credit on that because, and I do agree, I think Patrick is an underrated singer. If he's considered underrated, I don't consider him underrated. I just consider him great. And I think he's a great songwriter too, and he just has a knack for harmonies and he can come up with those on the spot. And he worked really hard at them. But in terms of the third underneath, I can't remember a specific intent of doing that. I do remember spending a lot of time on it, and it was really like Patrick was heavily influenced by Queen, I'm pretty sure at the time. And okay, I can give you one tech thing. He was talking about the range of Patrick.

(01:02:49):

Actually, that's an interesting point because we did track Patrick's Focals on that record too, the tape machine, and there were a number of songs where he couldn't sing the high harmonies. And so what I did was I slowed the tape machine down, so it was in a lower pitch, and then he sang 'em. So he actually sang those lower than his real, and then I sped the machine back up so they're higher, which I think is also maybe a queen vocal trick. But so yeah, there probably are a number of ones on there that were out of Patrick's range that through the use of the tape machine we were able to make happen.

Speaker 1 (01:03:24):

Enrico actually has some pretty good ears.

Speaker 2 (01:03:27):

That's pretty great, man. Yeah. Yeah. Pretty impressive.

Speaker 1 (01:03:31):

Here's one from Chris Kelsey, which is, thanks for taking the time to answer some of our questions, Sean. Not even exaggerating, maybe this place is the same as my favorite pop punk mix and quite possibly my favorite mix ever. I know the album was engineered by Seth Henderson, and I've always been curious as to how extensive the mixing process was for that album. Did you use all the tones from the guitars and Bass Seth capture, or did you re-Amp the Eyes? How much sample reinforcement replacement did you do to the drums? Were the vocals tuned at all? They don't sound like it. I ask because I find the album has an extremely natural sound to it, especially in comparison to all the things that Seth Engineers and mixes himself. And yet the album sounds punchy and huge simultaneously. It's a sound I have been seeking ever since I first listened to that record that I've yet still to fully achieve. And I have inclination that a lot of it comes from the mixing phase. I would love if you could shed some light on this. Thank you for your time, man. These are some detailed, long questions.

Speaker 2 (01:04:36):

Wow. Yeah, totally. What was his name again?

Speaker 1 (01:04:41):

Chris Kelsey.

Speaker 2 (01:04:41):

Chris, yeah. Thanks, Chris. That's awesome. Yeah, I'm flattered and honored that you think that. And yeah, let's see. So for that record, well, a few things. You're right. I did just mix it and the guitars were the sounds they gave me for sure. I don't think I got any DI's on that. And the bass, quite honestly, I don't remember. It would've, a lot of times when I get a base, if the amp is not great, then usually my first thing to be honest is I just take the di, get rid of the Ampt track, and I use a re-amp situation in Pro Tools, not an actual amp. I like that a lot. And I don't remember, I'm sorry if I use that or not on that record, I really don't remember. But in regards to what was, let's see, you were talking about the organic part of that. That's really cool that you bring that up because yeah. Let's see. Well, no, let's see. The vocals, I'm trying to go in order here. I didn't add any additional tuning unless the band asked for it when they came over, and I don't remember them asking for that.

(01:06:09):

So yeah, so I think that that's however they came to me. And I thought his vocals were fantastic. When I got that record, that was my favorite thing. I thought he was really great. And when he came over to the studio, I was really excited to meet him and I remember telling him how much I thought his vocals were killer and really drove that record home. And when I get a vocal like that, it's fun because whatever sound you give it is just like, yeah, it's just an instinctual reaction, which is ideal I think for any sound or any record you can make if you're working off instinct, that's by far the best one. And that's not always the case, but those are the ones you want to cherish. And I felt that way with his vocal. But in terms of the organicness of the mix, yeah, that's interesting because I get asked to do projects like that, I think probably because of Follow-Up Boy and some of the earlier things. And admittedly, I'll listen to modern records in that genre and they sound incredible to me and they sound also so I guess slick or really done up. And it's usually a thing where I go, that sounds amazing, and I have no idea how to do that, and I don't think I know how to do that. And I've tried to copy those things in a failed miserably. And I hate

Speaker 1 (01:07:48):

What's really funny about polished, super polished, modern production, and this is something that I've noticed on the internet. Lots of people will talk shit about it and be like, it's all templates, or it's all this, or it's all that, or it's easy. And it's like, it's actually not that easy,

Speaker 2 (01:08:08):

Not for me. Yeah,

Speaker 1 (01:08:10):

It's actually pretty damn difficult to make something sound that perfect.

Speaker 2 (01:08:13):

Yeah, until you try. And I've said that too, I'm like, ah, that can't be that hard. And then you try, and at least for me, I feel like I'm terrible at that. And so the only thing that I can resort to is trying to do what comes naturally to me. And maybe for lack of a better description, I've always felt that I like things hitting hard. I definitely want them to, and I like things aggressive, but I like a natural sensibility to things or what I consider natural. And obviously what everybody considers natural is different. We were talking about with the drummer guy, it's like that word could be taken out of context. But anyway, so I'm really glad that you like the way that sounds. And for me, that's just, that's what I kind of achieve to do. And sometimes I worry because I think that a lot of times people think that it's not nearly done up enough or not nearly in your face or slick enough or whatever. And then I have other friends who probably listen to it and go, man, that's way too slick. And that's just my pace. That's where I sit.

(01:09:28):

So I'm glad it resonates with somebody. That's awesome. You never know.

Speaker 1 (01:09:33):

I think it's really important to have good and to know what your just artistic identity is. It's a good thing

Speaker 3 (01:09:47):

In

Speaker 1 (01:09:47):

My opinion.

Speaker 3 (01:09:48):

So

Speaker 1 (01:09:49):

Josh Adams says, Hey, Sean, take this to your grave, is one of my favorites. The panning in that album for vocals, guitars, and really everything seems very absolute. Like it's either a hundred percent left, a hundred percent right or totally center. Is this true? And do you have any comments about panning this way?

Speaker 2 (01:10:07):

Yes, I think he's a hundred percent correct. That is right. And those are my comments. I like left center and the right. I just like that. Sometimes I'll do in between. I know that it like Crystal Lord Alga I think is well known for that. And there are other guys I think, who are well known for that. And to my ear, that's just what I like and why it's simple. I can't make decisions of all the inbetweens. My brain needs to go, it's here, it's here, or it's here and that's it. And if my Pan Pot on Pro Tools only had those three positions, plus if I could have an auto panner to sweep, I'd be happy. I'd be fine. It just clears things up for me. Yeah, the reason I guess behind it is it clears things up. I really would just want to get crap out of the way. I want to get stuff out of the center that doesn't need to be in the center and the stuff that needs to be on the sides, I wanted to get it all the way over to the sides. So anyway. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:11:21):

So here's one from Vix, and I'm sorry if I mispronounced your name, but your mixing style really enhances emotions in the songs that really warm and interesting, but still really radio friendly. How do you achieve this? That seems like a tough question to answer.

Speaker 2 (01:11:39):

That's cool though. I mean, I like that question because let's see, wait, sorry, can you read the beginning of it again? It was a word in there.

Speaker 1 (01:11:49):

Your mixing style really enhances emotions in the songs. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (01:11:53):

That's what I was thinking. Yeah, so I like that you touched about the emotional aspect. Again, I don't think of myself as a hyper, like a master mixer or a master producer, any of those things. The one thing I really try and hit is that emotional content to me that still is to this day. That's why I listen to music, man. That's it. It's the emotional reaction. If I feel like shit or if I feel depressed or if I feel pumped up, man, music is right there by my side to help me with that stuff. And that's why I listen to it and it's why I love it. And I think it's like why I live my life, man. And so to me, if I can only get one thing right in a recording, which I don't always, but I try is that emotional context.

(01:12:52):

And if there's something in the record that resonates within me, and it doesn't have to be the perfect song and it doesn't have to be the perfect drum beat or best guitar part or best harmony, it can be one of those things or hopefully a lot of 'em. But if there's something that resonates with me, then I try and just focus on that and let my instincts roll and take them as far as they can be taken just based off that. And then there's obviously times where you've got to start thinking and putting your brain into it. And I try and limit that as much as possible. And I have found that over the years that the ones where I put my brain in more too much are the ones that I don't when I go back and listen to again, I don't love as much as the other ones.

(01:13:43):

So yeah, so that's kind of it. And then the rest of the mixing the warmth or whatever, I think that's just your taste and it's your ability. There are plenty of mixes of lots of mixes I go back and listen to and I think, man, I owe that guy money back and you just got to do what you can do at the time. And I think that's just kind of like there's no way to it. It is just trying and just keep trying. And when something resonates, then figure out what that was and maybe try and find more of that. But to me it's all about, it's finding the right source. If the source is resonating with you, you're kind of on autopilot and you kind of get a little bit of a free pass almost, which is pretty sweet.

Speaker 1 (01:14:47):

Sounds like once your instincts kick in, but you're pretty confident with them and not much second guessing,

Speaker 2 (01:14:57):

That's the best. If you can do that, that's the best. Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 1 (01:15:02):

I think sometimes I think it takes a while to develop that kind of confidence, but I think you can bring it about quicker if you do some of the things that we talked about earlier, get used to committing to, sounds like you'll force your development by forcing yourself to commit. You're going to have to learn to trust your instincts.

Speaker 2 (01:15:24):

Yeah, I totally agree with that. And I'd love to add another comment to that because I do think as somebody coming up, it's funny, when I was young, I actually felt it was not by any choice. It was really easy for me to follow my instincts because I was too dumb. I was too dumb to know any otherwise, and nobody could tell me any different, this is what I was going to do. And then as you start learning almost it changes. You learn about record making and it's a funny kind of thing. And now later in my career, I think you try and balance your instincts and your knowledge, but based on what you were saying, going off what you were saying about just try and commit, my biggest piece of advice to anybody trying to learn to trust their instincts is to create something and do it quickly.

(01:16:30):

Don't slave, don't go back, don't do revisions. Treat it like it's an analog console and an analog tape machine and create for the purpose of creating and then move on and do another one. And as you do those, you will only be able to go off of your instinct if you keep it short like that. If I had had this technology when I started, I think I probably wouldn't be sitting here doing a podcast. I think I'd still be recalling the same fucking mix from 15 years ago and it'd be a nightmare. And it's a difficult thing for me still to this day now having those things. And I think if you're coming up, that's got to be really tough. And I think limitations are so important when you're creating, and I feel really blessed that I had some of those when I started and that would, yeah, so like you say, commit and move on.

Speaker 1 (01:17:25):

It's almost like if you started in the analog days, you had the disadvantage of some things taking a lot longer or not really being possible, like certain types of edits or whatnot, but you also had the benefit of being forced to commit and get your shit together with your sounds.

Speaker 3 (01:17:48):

Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 1 (01:17:52):

Now the mix, we have a monthly mixing competition. We get over 500 entries a month. And one thing I've noticed with a lot of people who are first trying this stuff is that they just spend way too long on mixes. And those tend to be the worst entries. The guys that tend to win and who have also gone on to have careers or are starting their careers, they just tend to be faster. They'll get it done in an afternoon

Speaker 3 (01:18:24):

Or

Speaker 1 (01:18:24):

Whatnot. I do know that there are some guys who are really awesome, for instance, Colin Richardson, famous metal producer mixer who notoriously took forever, forever on everything. But I think that that's more of the exception. I think that the guys that I know that are really killer for the most part are pretty fast. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (01:18:57):

It makes sense.

Speaker 1 (01:19:00):

Yeah. I mean, I feel like what you said about being too dumb, there's a lot of wisdom to that. There's a point where engaging your conscious mind too much with an artistic project can really start to ruin.

Speaker 2 (01:19:20):

Yeah, I mean because man, at the end of the day when we're making records, we're making something that somebody wants to listen to and have an emotional reaction to. And I know for me as a kid, that was all that mattered when I listened to music, that was it. And I think that that's still the case. I think that that will never not be the case. And I hope that when that day never changes, but I think ultimately that's why people listen to music. And there's absolutely something to be said for slaving over something and making a masterpiece. And that's fantastic. But I think, I feel that a lot of times when people do that, what they're slaving over are the details. They're not changing the infrastructure of something and they're not changing the bulk of the emotional content. And I think that's the issue with today with the pro tools and all that stuff, is that you can pull all your faders down and you can totally change your infrastructure. And I don't think you get too many opportunities in a song to react to the music and build that infrastructure. I think you only get really one or two shots, and after that, then I think you're losing. But if you can build that and then you can work on these details and these guys who are these masters who do that, I think they've learned to separate those two processes and they're detailing things and you can detail forever. That's fun stuff to do. But I feel like in the successful cases, they never missed the infrastructure. They kept that in place.

Speaker 1 (01:21:13):

Yeah, I think you're absolutely right.

Speaker 2 (01:21:15):

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:21:17):

Well, dude, with that going to end this because we've been going for a while, but yeah, Jesus, sorry. I really appreciate you coming on. No, this is good. This is good. I appreciate you coming on and being so open with everything and sharing with us, and it's been a pleasure talking to you. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (01:21:35):

Man. Same here. I really appreciate you having me. It's great. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:21:40):

Awesome, man. Well have a great rest of your day.

Speaker 2 (01:21:43):

Okay, you too.

Speaker 1 (01:21:44):

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